160 temp question

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As much as possible we preach and follow USDA guidelines for our members and ESPECIALLY non-members benefit. Is it thumping the USDA Gospel? Yes. Members, new and old, come here to learn and eventually teach. Most Newbies are very interested in smoking and curing meat and Sausage but have no clue where to begin. If I had a $1 for every time I bailed out a guy or gal, whose post started, " I found this cured sausage recipe online. It called for X Tablespoons of Cure #1. Is that right? " We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety. The same goes for other USDA guidlines on smoking Temperature, on cooking Turkey safely and in this case, the safest method for preparing Jerky.
To get back to non-members, there are hundreds of Lurkers on SMF at any given time. If all they ever saw was " Grandma did it this way and nobody died. "Or, " Uncle Bob only used Salt and nobody got sick, " the lurkers would never see what is CURRENTLY the safest method. Example, in Grandma's day she and the family worked for their food. They had hands in the dirt of the garden, they raised the animals including mucking out the stalls, hands on moving the animals around and slaughtering these animals. Those past generations were strong, healthy and exposed to a huge variety of bacteria. They developed strong immune systems and rarely got food borne illnesses. The modern 2+ generations, buy Groceries and Packaged Meat at a store. They get and take Antibiotics for every Sniffle or mild Cough they get. Then add Presevatives, Antibacterial Soap and practically Bathing in Purell after any public contact, and you have a million people with weak immune systems, food allergies and Super Bugs that are killing children and older folks and the rest of the family spends weeks in the hospital from eating....Freakin Lettuce or a Medium Hamburger!
Yes, we can be fanatical about USDA guidelines, temperatures, and measuring Cure #'s 1 and 2 but it is for good reason. We don't ever want to hear a recipe or tutorial of our's made your family sick!
Yes, there are Heritage methods of cooking and curing. Yes, those of us that know exactly what we are doing and the risks envolved don't follow every guideline to the letter. We are happy to discuss such things, but you will always see one or more veterans of SMF lay down the currently safest method for getting things done based on USDA guidelines and modern practices...JJ
I understand the concerns when recommendations are made to the public. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for someone getting sick either. I’m simply searching for answers. I grew up curing many a sides of bacon and hams. Sugar cure and salt cure. Pretty much the way it’s been done for many years. I’m not even sure the USDA would still approve of those methods either.

I was just seeing a contradiction in the two methods of jerky making and sausage/snack sticks. I think we should all be educated but not scared to death that we are going to kill ourselves.
 
MORTON sugar cure 2.jpg
 
Does it really matter if the Old Timer, as you put it, scoops a Heaping teaspoon or a Short teaspoon or even forgets and adds 2 teaspoons of Cure #1, there is no need for concern.

I can appreciate a wide margin of error from the USDA, but I don't mean to limit the scope of my question to issues of safety (nitrite/nitrate). I'm more curious as to why those practicing a craft that relies heavily on precision and scientific method in order to improve and repeat results would not choose to be as specific as possible when it comes to ingredients, whether it's Prague Powder or rosemary.
 
I can appreciate a wide margin of error from the USDA, but I don't mean to limit the scope of my question to issues of safety (nitrite/nitrate). I'm more curious as to why those practicing a craft that relies heavily on precision and scientific method in order to improve and repeat results would not choose to be as specific as possible when it comes to ingredients, whether it's Prague Powder or rosemary.

Take a poll here, in any Famous or Mom and Pop BBQ Joint or at any BBQ competition, Smoking Meat or Curing Meat is an Art. Baking is a Science. For generations Cooking, Smoking and Curing techniques were passed down from master to student. Us Baby Boomers learned at Dad or Grandpa's side or maybe from a friend or other mentor. From a young age, you watched the meat be prepared. Then maybe they let you turn the grinder handle or season and mix the meat. You learned to make a fire, what woods to give flavor and how to control the smoke. You learned how to use and care for a knife, the cuts, what is used for what. You learned how cooking meat should look, smell and when it was done. Repeatability came with practice. There was a few books but no Internet or SMF to look to for help. Many times measurement was, Some of this, A Handful of that or maybe you measured by Volume. Over time you learned to produce great food but with so many variables, there is frequently a differences in the taste, texture, timing and often overall quality of the finished product. Some fabulous food and innovation has often come from a mistake or accident.
In contrast BAKING is a Science. In the bakery you don't use Recipes, you follow Formulas. Every ingredient is weighed out as a percentage of the Flour or main ingredient. The resulting product is consistent with the only true art involved coming when it's time to decorate, present or serve the product.

So whether you measure by Volume or Weight, is up to the individual. The main goal is to learn the Ways the Masters got things done, How additions, deletions or changes effect the result and Why they did it that way to get a great result. Then you can develop YOUR method of creating ART and making Magic...JJ
 
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Take a poll here, in any Famous or Mom and Pop BBQ Joint or at any BBQ competition, Smoking Meat or Curing Meat is an Art. Baking is a Science.

I would argue that curing meat (edit - charcuterie in general) is indeed a science, in much the same way baking is. Both are heavily reliant on chemistry is ways that both BBQ and Nonna's red sauce are not. The art, IMHO, comes from knowing the how, and using that knowledge to manipulate flavors and textures.
 
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I would argue that curing meat is indeed a science, in much the same way baking is. Both are heavily reliant on chemistry is ways that both BBQ and Nonna's red sauce are not. The art, IMHO, comes from knowing the how, and using that knowledge to manipulate flavors and textures.

Really? Watch a video on the making of Parma Prosciutto or Iberico Jamon. No scales, no formulas no Science. Just thousands of pounds of Hams and young men shoveling Salt on layer after layer of Hog's Legs. This goes on until the Oldest man in the room says, That is Enough, in Italian or Spanish. After a year or two, the Old Man and an Apprentice or two walk along the rows of hanging Hams, Horse Bone in hand, probing and smelling for the proper aroma coming from the most expensive Cured Ham in the world or for spoiled meat. The same Masters apply their Art to many types of Salumi, Cheese and forms of Cured products, in Europe, the United States, creating the finest Smokey Cured, Salt and Sugar only, Country Hams and Bacon, and a whole variety of preserved food from around the world.
I'm not talking Oscar Mayer, Hormel, Volpi's, or other National Brands of Laboratory Designed facsimiles of the real deal. I am talking True Artisans making generations old Magic.
Many years ago, I asked my Uncle for the Recipe Grandpa used to make his Coppa. " What recipe? " he replied. " Dad rubbed the pork with Salt, Black and Red Pepper, then tied and hung the meat until it was ready, about 5 months. "...JJ
 
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I used to make it without cure also, never got ill.

I use cure now, because it undeniably helps safe guard the food.

The USDA recommendations are just that.

How many commercial jerky seasonings with cure mention the 160 before drying technique.

Some people post the USDA information to be helpful, others to support their own belief that they are "someone important" on this forum and what they regurgitate is gospel.

Bill a few things you need to realize.

1) The USDA Recommendations as you called it are actually USDA Guidelines for safe food handling and curing.
2) The people passing along these Guidelines are here to help people be safe and enjoy this great hobby and not trying to support their belief that they are "someone" as you put it. By saying that you are being very disrespectful to many of years of experience and helpfulness.
3) How many companies do you know post their entire procedure on the packaging for you to know? Also the commercial places are USDA certified meaning they follow these guidelines.

Please tread lightly when you are recommending something other than the USDA guidelines unless you can support it with facts as others in this thread have done.
 
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I am talking True Artisans making generations old Magic.

This implies that the only way to do it properly is to have generations of experience teaching you. If I was a fourth generation blacksmith I may be able to forge the finest steel, but my techniques (if successful) would be formed by science whether I knew it or not. Nancy Newsom and Allan Benton (who are both lovely), are following traditions that work because of the science involved. They may not know or care about that science, but techniques that failed in generations past were not handed down. Most people don't have the luxury of growing up in a 100 year old Virginia smokehouse, which means you can spend a whole lot of time failing, or you can study the science and mitigate that loss.
 
General characteristics of 4150 Alloy Steel
AISI or SAE 4150 grade is a low-alloy steel containing chromium and molybdenum as strengthening agents. Its chemical composition is as follows:
Chemical Analysis
C% Carbon 0.48 – 0.53
Mn% Manganese 0.75 – 1.00
P% Phosphorus 0.035 max
S% Sulfur 0.040 max
Si% Silicon 0.20 – 0.35
Cr% Chromium 0.80 – 1.10
Mo% Molybdenum 0.15 – 0.25

Applications
This alloy is used as forgings in the aerospace and oil and gas industries, and has myriad uses in the automotive, agricultural and defense industries, Typical uses are forged gears, shafts, and spindles,

Forging
This steel should be forged between 2200 and 1600 º F (1200 and 870 º C.) The lower the finishing temperature from forging, the finer will be the grain size. This alloy should ideally not be forged below 1600 º F (870 º C) and should be slow cooled after forging.

That is the Science behind a type of Steel suitable for say, Forging a Knife that has a portion of the steel soft enough to be strong and flexible but have a hardened edge that can be sharpened, hold the edge and stand up to the impact of hitting a cutting board without rolling or chipping.
There is no set of written systematic procedures that if followed, to the letter, will allow YOU, as an Apprentice or Master Smith to repeatedly produce a perfect set of 100 Knives with identical characteristics and a precise high level of quality. This will NEVER HAPPEN with Artisan Hand Forged Knives!
The ART that takes Apprentice to Master Smith comes from being shown and learning that this color yellow shows the steel is within a range of temps the make it strong yet flexible. Then covering the spine in Clay and heating until the steel is a shade of Yellow will result in a hard, strong, sharpenable edge, that is not brittle, after quenching in oil for the slow cooling that gives strength and avoids warping the blade.

The same goes for Curing Meat. The science has shown that the application of Salt draws moisture and kills or inhibits the growth of harmful bacteria by dehydrating the bacteria and binding water to prevent survivor or salt tolerant spoilage bacterial from multiplying.
Again if this salt curing was a science the production of high quality ham would be foolproof, consistently repeatable and 2, 200 or 2000 finished hams would have an identical level of salinity, have identical percentages of remaining moisture and a consistent, high quality level of flavor intensity.
This too will NEVER HAPPEN.
In Italy and Spain where generations a of Apprentices, under the watchful eye of Ham Curing Masters, have studied and practiced the ART of producing the finest cured hams. Here to, there are the inconsistencies of any Artisan made product. The highest quality, finest hams are reserved for enjoyment of the citizens of those countries. Lesser hams, of still high quality, are exported around the world. These hams are delicious and way better than anything commercially produced domestically but consistency in flavor, texture and salinity can vary from the same producer.

Science allows us to produce 1,000,000 tubes of identically colored Prussian Blue Oil Paint...BUT...Only Michelangelo can make the magic that is the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel!...JJ
 
Bill a few things you need to realize.

1) The USDA Recommendations as you called it are actually USDA Guidelines for safe food handling and curing.
2) The people passing along these Guidelines are here to help people be safe and enjoy this great hobby and not trying to support their belief that they are "someone" as you put it. By saying that you are being very disrespectful to many of years of experience and helpfulness.
3) How many companies do you know post their entire procedure on the packaging for you to know? Also the commercial places are USDA certified meaning they follow these guidelines.

Please tread lightly when you are recommending something other than the USDA guidelines unless you can support it with facts as others in this thread have done.

The USDA makes frequent use of both recommendations and guidelines. My apologies if I used the incorrect wording.

I'm not being disrespectful.

Respect is earned, and should people demand it, they should also display it.

Condescension and arrogance themselves area an act of disrespect. Maybe you've seen a few such posts by some members, I don't know.

Keep on smoking!
 
There is no set of written systematic procedures that if followed, to the letter, will allow YOU, as an Apprentice or Master Smith to repeatedly produce a perfect set of 100 Knives with identical characteristics and a precise high level of quality.

I'm not suggesting that anyone can walk in off the street, stuff bung with ground pork, and walk away with the most perfect mortadella on earth. Just as I would never suggest you can learn to drive a car from a book. But that does not mean there is no chemistry involved. None of us are, or will ever be, Michelangelo.


Ana Rivas-Cañedo, ... Manuel Núñez, in Processing and Impact on Active Components in Food, 2015

Dry-Cured Meat Products
The first stages of the manufacture of dry-cured meat products involve the selection and preparation of the raw materials, which include bleeding and partial skin removal, when applicable. Afterwards, the pieces are rubbed on the surface with curing ingredients and additives (salt, nitrate and/or nitrite, ascorbic acid, etc.) and covered with layers of dry salt at 2–4°C for several days, depending on the piece’s weight. The salt is then brushed or rinsed off and the pieces are held at 0–4°C and 90% relative humidity (RH) for 20–60 days. Afterwards, the pieces are subjected to the ripening–drying stage, in which time, temperature and RH are combined for at least 6–9 months to achieve a final weight loss around 32–36% in relation to the initial weight.

Complex biochemical reactions leading to the final volatile profile take place during the manufacture of these products. Firstly, proteolysis and lipolysis generate peptides, free amino acids and free fatty acids that contribute to the flavor and the aroma of the product. These reactions are mainly due to endogenous enzymes, with a minor contribution of microbial enzymes (Toldrá, 1998), although molds and yeasts growing on the surface are also responsible for proteolysis and lipolysis. Secondly, lipid oxidation and further interactions of the resulting compounds with proteins, peptides and free amino acids, as well as Strecker degradation of free amino acids and Maillard reactions, generate most of the volatile compounds in dry-cured meat products (Toldrá, 1998). Their volatile fraction is composed of numerous compounds, such as aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, hydrocarbons, lactones, and esters (Toldrá, 1998). Aldehydes, benzene compounds and carboxylic acids were the most abundant chemical families among the 22 volatile compounds identified in dry-cured pork loin, accounting for 67% of the volatile fraction which also included methylketones, alcohols, alkanes, and pyrazines (Campus et al., 2008). In the volatile profile of dry-cured Serrano ham, 108 compounds were identified, grouped into alkanes, alkenes, aldehydes, ketones (mostly methylketones), alcohols, esters, benzene compounds, sulfur compounds, alkylfurans, and pyrazines (Rivas-Cañedo et al., 2009a). The most abundant chemical families were linear and branched-chain aldehydes, linear alkanes, secondary alcohols, and sulfur compounds.
 
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I'm not suggesting that anyone can walk in off the street, stuff bung with ground pork, and walk away with the most perfect mortadella on earth. Just as I would never suggest you can learn to drive a car from a book. But that does not mean there is no chemistry involved. None of us are, or will ever be, Michelangelo.


Ana Rivas-Cañedo, ... Manuel Núñez, in Processing and Impact on Active Components in Food, 2015

Dry-Cured Meat Products
The first stages of the manufacture of dry-cured meat products involve the selection and preparation of the raw materials, which include bleeding and partial skin removal, when applicable. Afterwards, the pieces are rubbed on the surface with curing ingredients and additives (salt, nitrate and/or nitrite, ascorbic acid, etc.) and covered with layers of dry salt at 2–4°C for several days, depending on the piece’s weight. The salt is then brushed or rinsed off and the pieces are held at 0–4°C and 90% relative humidity (RH) for 20–60 days. Afterwards, the pieces are subjected to the ripening–drying stage, in which time, temperature and RH are combined for at least 6–9 months to achieve a final weight loss around 32–36% in relation to the initial weight.

Complex biochemical reactions leading to the final volatile profile take place during the manufacture of these products. Firstly, proteolysis and lipolysis generate peptides, free amino acids and free fatty acids that contribute to the flavor and the aroma of the product. These reactions are mainly due to endogenous enzymes, with a minor contribution of microbial enzymes (Toldrá, 1998), although molds and yeasts growing on the surface are also responsible for proteolysis and lipolysis. Secondly, lipid oxidation and further interactions of the resulting compounds with proteins, peptides and free amino acids, as well as Strecker degradation of free amino acids and Maillard reactions, generate most of the volatile compounds in dry-cured meat products (Toldrá, 1998). Their volatile fraction is composed of numerous compounds, such as aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, hydrocarbons, lactones, and esters (Toldrá, 1998). Aldehydes, benzene compounds and carboxylic acids were the most abundant chemical families among the 22 volatile compounds identified in dry-cured pork loin, accounting for 67% of the volatile fraction which also included methylketones, alcohols, alkanes, and pyrazines (Campus et al., 2008). In the volatile profile of dry-cured Serrano ham, 108 compounds were identified, grouped into alkanes, alkenes, aldehydes, ketones (mostly methylketones), alcohols, esters, benzene compounds, sulfur compounds, alkylfurans, and pyrazines (Rivas-Cañedo et al., 2009a). The most abundant chemical families were linear and branched-chain aldehydes, linear alkanes, secondary alcohols, and sulfur compounds.

fajitapot, morning.... Well, that explains the improvement in flavor.... All those nasties departing the muscle... Good information...
 
The USDA makes frequent use of both recommendations and guidelines. My apologies if I used the incorrect wording.

I'm not being disrespectful.

Respect is earned, and should people demand it, they should also display it.

Condescension and arrogance themselves area an act of disrespect. Maybe you've seen a few such posts by some members, I don't know.

Keep on smoking!


You are correct about respect being earned.

Just remember sometimes it's hard to judge intent when reading text.
 
LOL! There is a difference between understanding the chemical and physical, molecular changes that curing causes, and putting Salt to Meat and getting $200 a pound Iberico Jamon.
This was fun, my Brother in Smoke. My old brain needs some stimulation once in awhile. As a huge fan of Forged in Fire, I envy your ability to turn an old truck leaf spring into a mirror finished Kukri...JJ
 
LOL! There is a difference between understanding the chemical and physical, molecular changes that curing causes, and putting Salt to Meat and getting $200 a pound Iberico Jamon.

Indeed, but Ibérico Jamon can only be produced in the Iberian Penninsula, where thousands of years of trial and error have resulted in traditions that unwittingly follow the rules of chemistry. I (and most others) unfortunately do not have the luxury of growing up steeped in these ancient traditions (What a dream that would be!).

That said, I fully recognize the art involved but submit that the true masters understand the rules they choose to break and why.

Anyway, nice chat. I'm glad I discovered this forum.
 
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There’s science involved in everything. There’s a lot of science involved in just flushing a toilet. Most people don’t necessarily need to know what all takes place but that the water is going to go out when they pull the lever.

Our grandma and grandpa probably didn’t know all the science to curing meat but they somehow got it right. Trial and error works but mistakes are usually made along the way and solutions found.

Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.
 
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I see your point but I'm not trying to build a toilet, or build a car. If I was I would certainly want to know how they work (especially if I wanted to master it).
 
Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.

Hmmm, Refraction...Rotation...Sure Grip, Dana Power-Lok or Borg Warner Slip Resistant?...JJ
 
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