Tired of Failing At Pastrami (Oven)

[AssassinsCreed]

Hi...all.

I'm a bit worn down at the moment from last night's disaster.

I'll keep it brief.

I bought a 3.125 lbs corned beef brisket point so 2lbs after brine solution is removed. I ended up desalinating in water for 24 hours - putting a rub on it - in the oven at 5 PM starting at 34 degrees F. By 8 PM it reached 160 F - By 9 PM 162 F and by midnight - 164 F. I pulled it out at this temperature - prodding all the areas with the thermometer probe to confirm.

A cake tester went in with no resistance (I'm not kidding...I'm sensitive to this). I then assumed "it's ready" and STEAMED it to 203.

Sliced it - took my first bite - ended up tasting like rubberized meat pellets. Not good. Literally felt like tiny rubber bands in my mouth..meat also looked ...very....tough and compacted little groups of muscle fibers on every slice against the grain. I realized it's bad.

Here are pics:

Going in for "slow roast"

(At 12:00AM)

Pulling with great force with my index and thumb away from each other. It wanted to "snap" back pretty bad. A lot of resistance to be stretched. See the circular pockets of meat? Imagine long meat cells that taste like rubber if i broke them apart and tried chewing on one.

I decided to put it in the pressure cooker (no hope). After 30 minutes at PSI of 15, it was still rubbery....after 1 hour...better but rubberish...after 1 hour 55 minutes (as most recipes say cooking brisket *FROM RAW*) - it was actually edible and tasted like meat with pleasing texture but of course - super waterlogged like stew meat and gross.

In both instances the cake tester went in the same and felt EXACTLY the same. My theory is the cake tester just went right through pores or little holes in the meat - probably a lot of fat created easy pockets for it to slide through despite it being awfully and disgustingly undercooked - which tells me that "touch" or "poking" is not an accurately consistent measure to when tough meats are actually done.

This is my 2nd epic failure with beef brisket.

My first massive failure was following a ChefSteps recipe of 9 day cured corned beef and then sous vide for 36 hours at ...I forget what temp but it was about 155 I think. That one wasn't rubbery and it was quite edible - just tasted disgustingly dry.

I'm 2/2 in massive fail. For this last night cook I sourced multiple recipes and websites that mention that for a meat like this 3-5 hours is ideal. And yet - I ended up with a rubber roast that had to be pressure cooked as if it were never roasted!

Any thoughts anyone has? Am I seriously that unlucky or did I technically mess something up? In which case the site's I referenced ....didn't do a great job at making technicalities known as I followed quite an agreeable consensus.....

I'm pretty much ready to give up and stop wasting money in the pursuit of this.

 

[tallbm]

Hi...all.

I'm a bit worn down at the moment from last night's disaster.

I'll keep it brief.

I bought a 3.125 lbs corned beef brisket point so 2lbs after brine solution is removed. I ended up desalinating in water for 24 hours - putting a rub on it - in the oven at 5 PM starting at 34 degrees F. By 8 PM it reached 160 F - By 9 PM 162 F and by midnight - 164 F. I pulled it out at this temperature - prodding all the areas with the thermometer probe to confirm.

A cake tester went in with no resistance (I'm not kidding...I'm sensitive to this). I then assumed "it's ready" and STEAMED it to 203.

Sliced it - took my first bite - ended up tasting like rubberized meat pellets. Not good. Literally felt like tiny rubber bands in my mouth..meat also looked ...very....tough and compacted little groups of muscle fibers on every slice against the grain. I realized it's bad.

Here are pics:

Going in for "slow roast"

(At 12:00AM)

Pulling with great force with my index and thumb away from each other. It wanted to "snap" back pretty bad. A lot of resistance to be stretched. See the circular pockets of meat? Imagine long meat cells that taste like rubber if i broke them apart and tried chewing on one.

I decided to put it in the pressure cooker (no hope). After 30 minutes at PSI of 15, it was still rubbery....after 1 hour...better but rubberish...after 1 hour 55 minutes (as most recipes say cooking brisket *FROM RAW*) - it was actually edible and tasted like meat with pleasing texture but of course - super waterlogged like stew meat and gross.

In both instances the cake tester went in the same and felt EXACTLY the same. My theory is the cake tester just went right through pores or little holes in the meat - probably a lot of fat created easy pockets for it to slide through despite it being awfully and disgustingly undercooked - which tells me that "touch" or "poking" is not an accurately consistent measure to when tough meats are actually done.

This is my 2nd epic failure with beef brisket.

My first massive failure was following a ChefSteps recipe of 9 day cured corned beef and then sous vide for 36 hours at ...I forget what temp but it was about 155 I think. That one wasn't rubbery and it was quite edible - just tasted disgustingly dry.

I'm 2/2 in massive fail. For this last night cook I sourced multiple recipes and websites that mention that for a meat like this 3-5 hours is ideal. And yet - I ended up with a rubber roast that had to be pressure cooked as if it were never roasted!

Any thoughts anyone has? Am I seriously that unlucky or did I technically mess something up? In which case the site's I referenced ....didn't do a great job at making technicalities known as I followed quite an agreeable consensus.....

I'm pretty much ready to give up and stop wasting money in the pursuit of this.

Hi there and welcome!

I don't really have any advice or info for you on whole meat pastrami BUT I was going to suggest you thinking about doing a ground meat pastrami formed into a block, smoked, sliced, and enjoyed :)

Here is my post on doing Venison Pastrami but if you do 80/20 beef that should a direct replacement for my 80/20 venison and beef fat mix.
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/pastrami-loaf-with-qview.263815/

This stuff is fantastic and even though it isn't whole muscle pastrami it is right on with the flavor in my book and much easier to deal with. Best of luck! :)

 

[dernektambura]

From your ir picture I would say that you didn't steam long enough to break and turn in to gelatin connectivity tissues...

 

[AssassinsCreed]

From your ir picture I would say that you didn't steam long enough to break and turn in to gelatin connectivity tissues...

Most sites said smoke to 205...I didn't realize I had to smoke it to an IT of 300?

 

[DanMcG]

I'd take it to at least 185° for slicing. What temp was your oven set at?
And where did the 300° IT come from?

 

[AssassinsCreed]

I feel like no one is reading what I wrote.

I took it to 205, which is more than 185 when it came time to slicing. 300 IT is something I'm assuming the meat would go to if someone is telling me I didn't "steam long enough" when I'm mentioning I followed quite a lot of site consensus in terms of their recipes which led me astray.

 

[SmokinAl]

I have had very good luck with smoking them to an IT of 150, Then SV'ing them at 155 for 24 hours.
Put plenty of pastrami spices in the bag with the corned beef.
You may have just been unlucky & got a bad piece of meat, cause taking a CB to 200 degrees should do it, no matter how you get there.
Al

 

[daveomak]

You hurried the cooking process.... 205 does not make meat tender... The TIME it takes to get to 205 and how long it spends at 205 is what makes it tender.... Time is required for all the cool, nitty gritty, stuff to take place in the meat... The same results of tender meat can take place at 190, given enough time...
Also, that hunk of meat could have been improperly slaughtered and processed making for a very tough hunk of meat...

Like someone said, "Third time is the charm"....

 

[AssassinsCreed]

I see. Well i was led astray by dozens of recipes stating get it to IT of 165 from 3-5 hours. NO SITE mentioned to keep it at a certain temperature long enough to break the collagen which believe it or not I found ODD myself!

So youre saying I should have had it at that temp fr quite some time....fair I guess...but I trusted sites telling me to just pop it in an oven for 5 hours...i gave mine 10 hours....double. i wouldnt say i rushed it....but clearly the instructions on these sites were improper. Even amazingribs says to just take a meat in a smoker to 180 and pull it right away ...not hold it there!

As far as im concerned, the sites led me astray.

So why would someone want to approach 185 slowly? To be frank 10 hours to get there...and youre saying its possible it may have needed 10 more hours AT 185 would make this TOO long in my eyes to be worth it. What if I set the oven to 350 to bring it up much quicker? Would too much moisture be drawn out?

 

[daveomak]

Amazingribs fails in many departments...

Tough Meat
Prolonged cooking (e.g., braising) has been used to make tough cuts of meat more palatable since ancient times. Indeed, prolonged cooking can more than double the tenderness of the meat by dissolving all the collagen into gelatin and reducing inter-fiber adhesion to essentially nothing (Davey et al., 1976). At 176°F (80°C), Davey et al. (1976) found that these effects occur within about 12–24 hours with tenderness increasing only slightly when cooked for 50 to 100 hours.

At lower temperatures (120°F/50°C to 150°F/ 65°C), Bouton and Harris (1981) found that tough cuts of beef (from animals 0–4 years old) were the most tender when cooked to between 131°F and 140°F (55°C and 60°C). Cooking the beef for 24 hours at these temperatures significantly increased its tenderness (with shear forces decreasing 26%–72% compared to 1 hour of cooking). This tenderizing is caused by weakening of connective tissue and proteolytic enzymes decreasing myofibrillar tensile strength. Indeed, collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). Moreover, the sarcoplasmic protein enzyme collagenase remains active below 140°F (60°C) and can significantly tenderize the meat if held for more than 6 hours (Tornberg, 2005). This is why beef chuck roast cooked in a 131°F–140°F (55°C–60°C) water bath for 24–48 hours has the texture of filet mignon.

 

[dernektambura]

Amazingribs fails in many departments...

Tough Meat
Prolonged cooking (e.g., braising) has been used to make tough cuts of meat more palatable since ancient times. Indeed, prolonged cooking can more than double the tenderness of the meat by dissolving all the collagen into gelatin and reducing inter-fiber adhesion to essentially nothing (Davey et al., 1976). At 176°F (80°C), Davey et al. (1976) found that these effects occur within about 12–24 hours with tenderness increasing only slightly when cooked for 50 to 100 hours.

At lower temperatures (120°F/50°C to 150°F/ 65°C), Bouton and Harris (1981) found that tough cuts of beef (from animals 0–4 years old) were the most tender when cooked to between 131°F and 140°F (55°C and 60°C). Cooking the beef for 24 hours at these temperatures significantly increased its tenderness (with shear forces decreasing 26%–72% compared to 1 hour of cooking). This tenderizing is caused by weakening of connective tissue and proteolytic enzymes decreasing myofibrillar tensile strength. Indeed, collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). Moreover, the sarcoplasmic protein enzyme collagenase remains active below 140°F (60°C) and can significantly tenderize the meat if held for more than 6 hours (Tornberg, 2005). This is why beef chuck roast cooked in a 131°F–140°F (55°C–60°C) water bath for 24–48 hours has the texture of filet mignon.

I am in agreement Dave nailed it. . nothing to add.... bravo Dave....