Non-Fermented and Firm/Dry Beef Snack Stick: Any Advice to add "snap" to my sticks?

[geostriata]

hmm... have you tried pork and pork back fat with this recipe?

I know my target stick is 100% beef, so I shouldn't need to use any pork fat for it to work. Nevertheless, I did try some pork and pork fat. I have the flavor/taste very similar now, and adding pork made it taste less similar (as you'd expect when trying to replicate a 100% beef product).

Nevertheless, I'm always open to making a snack stick taste better than my target too :) As such, I will be getting in some pork fatback today to try. So if that makes it taste better, and with the texture/dryness I want, then I'd call that a win. Worth trying, anyways.

also another idea is to cold smoke for 8-10 hrs then water bath it in 165F water till you get your target internal temp then start drying..... just a thought or another idea....

That's a good idea! Since these are 15mm casings, I don't find it hard to reach my internal temperature. One of my experiments was a "reverse cook" approach, where I stick it in the oven for 20mins @ 250F to fast cook it to 155 IT, dunk it in cold water, and then proceed with a smoke. The idea was from an Age of Anderson video, where we talked about tough casings being due to a long low-and-slow cook.

That being said, I haven't tried sous vide yet. That might be useful to keep it wet which could counterintuitively help with drying (i.e., get sausage safe with minimal moisture delta between exterior and interior). I think I'll try that too.

my thoughts, I feel like the sheep casing will give you the best snap.... pork and back fat....
parafrozen fat in the grinder and smoker temps not swinging really high...

My target stick is from a standard mahogany collagen casing, so I do know that should be able work.

In my three-way comparison between Fine-T, sheep, and collagen casings, my conclusion (so far) is this: collagen is fine if you have perfect binding with meat and awful if not. As long as you don't have a blowout, sheep and Fine-T will give you a better product if you mess up. So far, they're not drying any better and they don't really taste better (but that may change over time).

I also think that "snap" isn't precisely defined. There are at least two types of "snap":

1. The "Snap" when you bite into it. You can get this with a hot dog if you cook it right.
2. The "Snap" when you try to break it in half. You should be able to do this easily with three fingers.

I want both versions of "snap."

also have you tried back fat at a lower percentage?

I have tried fat at lower and higher percentages. Lower fat tastes awful and higher fat is too floppy.

Thanks for your thoughts! You've given me a few new things to try!

 

[geostriata]

Back on track! Earlier on this thread, I mentioned daveomak 's schedule where he smoked his sticks for 14hrs @ 140 after a little ramp up. I had shied away from trying that because:

1. Fat-out concerns,
2. Almost all recipes for snack sticks have way shorter cook times
3. Even a recent "Age of Anderson" video on "Tough Casings" that said the case hardening was due to low and slow snack stick cooking.

So I threw caution to the wind anyways, and "rolled with it" a bit. It's something I hadn't tried with my new and improved smoking technique (using AMAZN Maze), so why not.

Another change I made was from an old video on youtube that I saw when I started my journey. I remember noticing the wrinkles, and deciding "I have to try that!" When I read through the comments most recently, I saw that he was chided in the comments for using "way too much water." Then it clicked: more water, more wrinkles!

So, I whipped up a new batch with:

1. 4oz of water per pound of meat
2. Maze for 12hr smoke @ 140, supplemented by tube for another 2 hours.
3. Ramped until internal temp of 158F (gasp!)

And they came out beautifully:

• Weight Loss: 39%
• Moisture Reading: 55% (5% less than past sticks after a week of drying)

They had a great bite "snap," but they still didn't snap in half with the three-finger test. However, another suggestion on another thread was to look into an "Umai Bag" for better texture, and that got me thinking. Possibly, in the commercial environment, the product is cooked similar to what is shown on the right, and bagged for sale afterwards. Perhaps the physical snap occurs over time as they rest in a bag on a shelf...

So what I did is replicate their bag, which has air and an O2 scrubber. I simply threw an o2 scrubber in them and hit "stop" on my vac sealer for a few seconds to get a little air in the bag. I think this makes sense because air helps equalize the moisture and a seal that is too tight would choke the stick too much.

So fingers crossed!!

 

[agcrock2005]

Back on track! Earlier on this thread, I mentioned daveomak 's schedule where he smoked his sticks for 14hrs @ 140 after a little ramp up. I had shied away from trying that because:

1. Fat-out concerns,
2. Almost all recipes for snack sticks have way shorter cook times
3. Even a recent "Age of Anderson" video on "Tough Casings" that said the case hardening was due to low and slow snack stick cooking.

So I threw caution to the wind anyways, and "rolled with it" a bit. It's something I hadn't tried with my new and improved smoking technique (using AMAZN Maze), so why not.

Another change I made was from an old video on youtube that I saw when I started my journey. I remember noticing the wrinkles, and deciding "I have to try that!" When I read through the comments most recently, I saw that he was chided in the comments for using "way too much water." Then it clicked: more water, more wrinkles!

So, I whipped up a new batch with:

1. 4oz of water per pound of meat
2. Maze for 12hr smoke @ 140, supplemented by tube for another 2 hours.
3. Ramped until internal temp of 158F (gasp!)

And they came out beautifully:
View attachment 693596

• Weight Loss: 39%
• Moisture Reading: 55% (5% less than past sticks after a week of drying)

They had a great bite "snap," but they still didn't snap in half with the three-finger test. However, another suggestion on another thread was to look into an "Umai Bag" for better texture, and that got me thinking. Possibly, in the commercial environment, the product is cooked similar to what is shown on the right, and bagged for sale afterwards. Perhaps the physical snap occurs over time as they rest in a bag on a shelf...

So what I did is replicate their bag, which has air and an O2 scrubber. I simply threw an o2 scrubber in them and hit "stop" on my vac sealer for a few seconds to get a little air in the bag. I think this makes sense because air helps equalize the moisture and a seal that is too tight would choke the stick too much.

So fingers crossed!!

I can't wait until you figure this out! I've just settled on hanging for 3-4 days at room temp and have liked the results, but you may have be trying some new tests after this one's over with! Great thread.

 

[geostriata]

I can't wait until you figure this out! I've just settled on hanging for 3-4 days at room temp and have liked the results, but you may have be trying some new tests after this one's over with! Great thread.

Thanks!

I'm still somewhat on the fence. I did the blind taste test a while back, and after the first day it won in taste. It's days 2-4 that I'm not sure about. I felt like the taste didn't improve after the first day. So you may want to try taking a bite every day to ensure the flavor/texture keeps improving.

In any case, the 14hr smoke at 140F and the extra water (4oz/lb) were the single biggest improvements in look, texture, and taste I've made in the past year or so. I can already tell this batch is my best so far. So a good day for me!

 

[geostriata]

So exciting! Another breakthrough and a recipe update!

New Recipe

When I made the last wrinkly batch (batch #DA1, with a 14hr smoke at 140), I actually used a new recipe. I had scouring the internet for visual examples of wrinkly snack sticks, and found a reddit thread with a recipe and a 14 hour cook. Instead of my usual recipe, I tried the reddit thread as best I could. This was the "wrinkly texture breakthrough."

I then made another batch (batch #35) with my old recipe and a 14hr smoke at 140, and compared it. My wife prefers the new recipe! (I still like the old one because I don't like what binders do to my texture, but I think this new recipe without binders will be a win). So I think I'm very very close. I just need to solve the texture issue, and maybe do a version of this without binders...

Here's the link to the reddit post if you want the source:

The user was was "DivineAnimosity." I'm super grateful for his post and sent him a "Thank You" for getting me un-stuck with the 14hr cook.

Here's his recipe, which I modified based on what I had available and my preferences:

• 25% pork backfat, 75% lean beef.
• Per lb of the above 25/75 meat:
  • 9.83g salt 7.83g pickling salt (I reduced this for MSG addition)
  • 1.13g cure #1
  • 16.63g corn syrup solids (This was in his recipe, but I didn't have this)
  • 16.63g nonfat/lowfat milk powder
  • 1.13g garlic powder
  • 3.02g crushed red pepper
  • 0.76g coriander
  • 1.32g black pepper
  • 1.52g cayenne
  • 6g liquid smoke (My addition - I always like adding a little of this)
  • 2.31g MSG (My addition - I always liMSG tastes good.)
  • 0.3g sodium erythorbate (My addition - Optional, but convenient and I like how it improves appearance)
  • 60g Water (He didn't specify, but I'm using ~3oz/lb of water now for defined long wrinkles).

Breakthrough!

After the excitement of the last breakthrough (the wrinkles), I felt inspired to dig into texture a bit more. Snack sticks are meant to be eaten differently than other charcuterie like salami, which is usually sliced. A person bites into it directly, and I think it's construction should account for that. I want the mouthfeel to taste like little bits of meat, or tiny "jerky" pieces that are made juicy with bits of flavored fat. My texture so far still isn't right, feeling like a traditional sausage -- too fine and smooth. It doesn't feel like I'm crunching on meat.

Thinking on this, I couldn't get the bowl cutter out of my head. Mariansky mentions how commercial producers use these at very cold temperatures. My hypothesis is that, by mincing the meat instead of grinding it, the texture will be improved dramatically. That hypothesis was tested in batch #36 and shown to be absolutely true! The key to the texture I'm looking for is to create minced meat, replicating the bowl cutter.

Here's what I did. Start by semi-freezing your meat, and cutting the lean into planks:

Then cut those planks into strips and then strips into mini cubes. Work with one or two planks at a time so that everything can stay cold in the freezer while you work (it takes a while)

I did the same for the fat, but I don't think it's as necessary. I only had pork back fat on hand, which feels softer to me than the beef hard fat. So I'll try it again when I do all beef and see if it feels different. But if you're using pork fat, I think you could either grind it or mince it and still get that good texture.

One surprising benefit. Normally Henry runs away from the grinder/mixer, but since I was doing everything by hand, I had a sidekick for the whole process:

Here's my sausage mise en place. This is my old recipe, not the new DivineAnimosity recipe, so there are no binders in this one:

Since it was 2AM, I had to had mix it. I timed it to about 8mins to sticky. OMG, it's SO COLD! Props to anyone who does this routinely. Normally I just hand mix a bit at the end of my paddle-mix.

Already it looks so much better! Less paste-like and more meat bit-like.

Stuffed into a squid for some reason. It's like 2:30am now, and I'm getting silly I think, but I want to get the smoke started before I go to sleep. I used 17mm Fine-T clear casings this time since I wanted to see how the mince was dispersed and how cooked over time. Next time proper 15mm casings.

Here's how it looked:

Finally! I took a bite and I'm super happy with these! I forgot I had to leave the house this morning, so I only got a 11hr smoke in, but they still look great. With batch #35, the casings were a little hard so I had to put in a bag in the fridge to equalize a bit... possibly going down to 11hrs is a good compromise on that point, so I might've lucked out anyways.

Now to do a 15mm shootout between old recipe minced and new recipe minced w/ no binders, and the winner may be my solution. Finally!

(Update: Actually, I have a little more work on this one. The lean is good in this, but I don't like the fat as much. Maybe because it's pork backfat. I'm hoping a full beef 15mm version with hard beef fat will solve... Also going to try re-smoking 3/4th of this batch for 4 or so more hours to see if that helps).

 

[geostriata]

Woot! The DivineAnimosity batch (the new recipe batch, DA#1) has passed the snap test!

This is after a day in various environments (after ~24hrs):

• Sealed in bag with air and O2 scrubber, room temp: Pass! 2% drop in moisture (53%).
• Sealed in bag with air and O2 scrubber, in fridge: Pass! 4.8% drop in moisture (50.02%)
• Wrapped in pink butcher paper in fridge: Pass! 5.4% drop in moisture (49.6%) Interestingly, Unlike the other examples, I noticed the interior had significantly greater moisture (49.6%) than area around the exterior (46.7%!). Despite lower moisture levels on one part of it, I think this may be a bad thing. I think this is uneven moisture dissipation, which is an argument against this approach. Or possibly adopt a strategy to pink wrap to lower avg moisture, then bag to equalize, which could be the best...
• Hang Moisture chamber, 55F 80% RH: Pass! 5% drop in moisture (50%)

The above is just one sample, so I'm not sure I can say one is other than the other (except perhaps pink bag), however, the most important thing is that I had a trial in the next batch that hasn't lost moisture (60% post cook, and 60% after ~12hrs hang)! That means that the reason I wasn't getting my sticks dry was due to a lack of binder. So as much as I hate that it "smooths out" the texture, it really helps with dryness (probably because it conducts away batter).

Also, as an aside. The reason why I didn't have any room-temp hangs is that I wanted to try to correct the case-hardening from the 14hr cook a little bit. The good news is that the case softened up a good deal by placing them in a bag.

So I'm going to start using minimal binder (low fat milk powder) in my recipes now. I think if I couple this with minced lean meat (instead of ground), I may be able to get the texture I want with the dryness I want. That'll be batch #37. (additionally I'll mixed the meat with that one with the cure for one day before stuffing/cooking (allowing me to drop sodium erythorbate and I'll drop the smoke, as my wife can taste "chemical aftertaste" and I want to see whether either is causing it. (She's a better taster than I am).

 

[slavikborisov]

Woot! The DivineAnimosity batch (the new recipe batch, DA#1) has passed the snap test!

View attachment 693704

This is after a day in various environments (after ~24hrs):

• Sealed in bag with air and O2 scrubber, room temp: Pass! 2% drop in moisture (53%).
• Sealed in bag with air and O2 scrubber, in fridge: Pass! 4.8% drop in moisture (50.02%)
• Wrapped in pink butcher paper in fridge: Pass! 5.4% drop in moisture (49.6%) Interestingly, Unlike the other examples, I noticed the interior had significantly greater moisture (49.6%) than area around the exterior (46.7%!). Despite lower moisture levels on one part of it, I think this may be a bad thing. I think this is uneven moisture dissipation, which is an argument against this approach. Or possibly adopt a strategy to pink wrap to lower avg moisture, then bag to equalize, which could be the best...
• Hang Moisture chamber, 55F 80% RH: Pass! 5% drop in moisture (50%)

The above is just one sample, so I'm not sure I can say one is other than the other (except perhaps pink bag), however, the most important thing is that I had a trial in the next batch that hasn't lost moisture (60% post cook, and 60% after ~12hrs hang)! That means that the reason I wasn't getting my sticks dry was due to a lack of binder. So as much as I hate that it "smooths out" the texture, it really helps with dryness (probably because it conducts away batter).

Also, as an aside. The reason why I didn't have any room-temp hangs is that I wanted to try to correct the case-hardening from the 14hr cook a little bit. The good news is that the case softened up a good deal by placing them in a bag.

So I'm going to start using minimal binder (low fat milk powder) in my recipes now. I think if I couple this with minced lean meat (instead of ground), I may be able to get the texture I want with the dryness I want. That'll be batch #37. (additionally I'll mixed the meat with that one with the cure for one day before stuffing/cooking (allowing me to drop sodium erythorbate and I'll drop the smoke, as my wife can taste "chemical aftertaste" and I want to see whether either is causing it. (She's a better taster than I am).

I don’t think The sodium erythorbate is causing it… you only need .5g/kg of meat for cure acceleration ….. your liquid smoke is way too high in my opinion and why your wife can taste the chemical after taste…I’d add it at .5-1.5g/kg alittle bit goes along way …. Just a suggestion everyone tastes buds are different and you like more than others so no big deal….. I’m glad you narrowed it down really happy for you and I learned a lot from your experiments!! Appreciate the insight and really glad your finally passing the snap test!

 

[geostriata]

I don’t think The sodium erythorbate is causing it… you only need .5g/kg of meat for cure acceleration ….. your liquid smoke is way too high in my opinion and why your wife can taste the chemical after taste…I’d add it at .5-1.5g/kg alittle bit goes along way …. Just a suggestion everyone tastes buds are different and you like more than others so no big deal….. I’m glad you narrowed it down really happy for you and I learned a lot from your experiments!! Appreciate the insight and really glad your finally passing the snap test!

Haha, you're right. I recall adding liquid smoke per spec, and then adding more liquid smoke and liking it more, and then wondering how much I could get away with. I think I might just prefer a lot of smoke flavor. That being said, in changing to a 14hr smoke, I'm getting a good amount of it anyways. Hopefully that was the culprit.

Thanks, and I'm glad my experiments have been useful to you!

 

[geostriata]

Just pulled out batch #37, with the minced meat, old seasonings (in my earlier posts), no liquid smoke, and 16.63g milk powder per lb of meat.

I decided to end prematurely (after 10 hour cook at 140) because it had deep wrinkles and stopped showing moisture loss. I set smoker to 160 and pulled out when at IT 158.

It's delicious! The binder does detract slightly, in my opinion, but I have much better texture due to the minced meat within. Definitely a solid approach, and I think I'll introduce an even coarser mince of lean meat next time. The lack of liquid smoke didn't cause it to taste all that different to me (given the extensive smoking already), so I think I'll simply remove it from the recipe.

However, now that batch (#35) has had a while to rest, I was able to now test it fully. I gave it the snap test, and it passed! So it looks like passing mostly has to do with the 10-14hr cook at 140, not the binder as I had guessed (possibly the binder helps more with moisture loss, and I'll see in a day or so).

So, to recap:

• Fine grind, no binder (batch #35) - Good! This was a finer grind than usual, and the texture was lacking, but it did pass the snap test with the 14hr cook! Not as much moisture loss as batch DA#1, however. So I think binder helped with moisture loss.
• Minced, no binder (batch #36) - BAD! This is the one with the fine-T casing, my first mince experiment. I was able to taste the lean meat, but the fat was separated and I could taste it. Same moisture loss as #35. Tossed out.
• 1/2 Minced, 1/2 coarse grind, w/ binder (batch #37) - Best texture so far! Passed snap test and I will guess that after a day of rest, it'll drop in moisture level like the DA#1 batch did.

Will try another batch with 1/2 diced lean (extra chunky mince) and 1/4 coarse grind, 1/4 fine grind, and see if that is sufficient for me to get away without using a binder. I'll compare that to another batch with 3/4 diced lean (extra chunky mince), 1/4 coarse grind, and binder and see what gets me the best mouthfeel. The idea being, that as you increase the coarseness of your meat mix for texture, the more attention you need to pay to binding. So I'll be testing whether I can increase binding with a portion of smaller particles in my mix, or whether I need an actual binder.

 

[geostriata]

I want to show you all what I'm talking about with regard to texture specifically. Up until now, I've been slicing the meat to show a cross section of the snack stick. That's not good for snack sticks because you don't slice into snack sticks -- you tear into them with your teeth.

As such, it's better to show the texture after a bite into them. So here we have three sticks (DA#1 coarse grind+binder, #34 coarse grind no binder, and #37).

My "Bite Test" was to very carefully make a vertical bite into the stick with my front incisors. A well-textured stick (like batch #37 or my commercial target stick) will be a random meat pieces -- like the meat was torn apart. A poor "smooth" textured stick (like slim jims and most every meat stick you can buy these days), will show groves in the "meat" where your tooth "plowed" through it.

That's not how meat should work. When you bite into it, it should tear. That's a meat stick. That's what you get by mincing your lean and not grinding it.

 

[geostriata]

With the recent breakthroughs, everything now seems to be falling into place. I've since made two batches:

• Batch #38 - Mince method and testing a reduction in binder (non or low-fat milk solids). I ran out of hard beef fat and used pork fat. This was 11hrs at 140. Results:
  • The pork backfat didn't taste as good as beef fat for me, which I found strange given how Mariansky claims it's the best. Maybe it works for somethings like salami better, but I like my snack sticks all beef.
  • The reduction in binder led to an inconsistent mouthfeel. I still got some delicious chewy minced meat (sort of like mini-jerky inside the beef stick), but I also got some subpar locations where it tasted fattier. Binder or fine grind or both is necessary when using the mince approach.
  • After about hour 6, the snack stick didn't reduce in weight as much (I weighed them every hour). I think for the next batch, I can pull from smoker after about 6 hours and be fine.
• Batch #39A - Mince method (almost a dice -- I got the cubes as big as possible in my 15mm stuffer). I recently learned the benefit in fine-grinding the fattier parts, so I took that approach here. 25% fine fatty grind (~50% fat), 50% coarse grind (~30%fat), 25% dice/mince lean. I also returned the binder to at 16g per meat pound. Also increased water to 75g per lb of meat. This batch goes to smoker after hanging at room temp for an hour.
• Batch #39B - This batch I let rest a day in the fridge before going in the smoker.

Here's what #39 looks like:

Lovely wrinkles! One of these sticks went from 211.7g to 122g for a 43% weight reduction. This stick passes the snap test right out of the smoker. By removing after 6 hours instead of 11, the casing is also less tough. Mouthfeel was wonderful with large minced pieces surrounded by perfectly integrated bound meat.

I also had another breakthrough! As I was cleaning my fridge, I noticed an old ziplock bag with beef sticks in it. I had done an experiment ages ago, placing a beef stick directly in the fridge vs. one in a ziplock bag and forgotten about it. The beef stick left exposed was inedible rigid. The beef stick in the ziplock back was amazing. Then I started to consider the commercial process, where after cooking, they throw the stick into a bag with an oxygen absorber. Then I realized:
part of the commercial process is to rest in a sealed bag to finish. This equalizes the moisture.

So the process is clear:
1. Cook sticks at 140 until, when you bite into them, they seem too dry.
2. Throw them in plastic bags to allow moisture to equalize.
3. Bingo: Snack sticks that are just the right amount of dry after sitting in the bags a week or so (this duration is still to be figured out).

So anyhow, I took my best batch yet (#39) cut it up and placed into ziplock bags. I then put half in my fridge and left half at room temp to see which one was better. After I know this, I think that's it! I'll put together a last post showing the process in detail end-to-end and finally have a snack stick recipe I like.

 

[geostriata]

I think I finally finished my drying protocol!

First, here are updates on 3 more experiments:

• Batch 40: Reduced schedule to 5hrs at 140. To recap, batch 39 tested 6.5hr, 7hr, and 13hr smokes at 140. For this batch, I did 1hr@122, 5hr @140 w/ smoke, 1hr finish at 168. Results were not an improvement. I think I'll settle on 6-7hr at 140. In addition, even though the milk powder helped with consistency, I felt like I was fighting it on the moisture side. I opted to remove it for the next batch.
• Myliwska: For a change of pace, I tried the Hunter's Sausage recipe from Marianski's books. This one had a four-part smoke-airdry-smoke-airdry cycle that yielded shelf-stable sticks. In short, it worked *very* well in terms of dryness, but I took it a bit too far. A promising result, however! The other aspect was using pork in my snack sticks. I tried a little on past batches, but I feel it just doesn't work as well for my recipes. I think I'm done experimenting with pork in them.
• Batch 41: This one is the winner.
  • Adjusted my grind into three parts 60% extra-coarse 12mm or "triangle plate" grind, 30% medium 8-10mm, and 20% fine 5-6mm. Not only was not mincing my meat easier, it helped with consistency.
  • Drop the nonfat dry milk (enabled by adjusting grind), and this made it easier to dry.
  • In Smoker: 1hr/105F (no smoke), 7hr at 140F (hickory smoke), 1hr finish at 169F. This gets me to IT 154F on 15mm casings.
  • In Drying Chamber: 3 days at 62F / 70% RH. Once you're losing less than about 4% weight per day, it should be good. Around 52% moisture on my meter at some parts, and 48% at other parts.
  • Conditioning: Put it in a ziplock for a day to equalize and soften the casing. Drying it this hard pushes the casings a bit. This recovers them. When they are this dry, a zip lock bag won't degrade them, but will rather equalize the moisture. In fact, if you add a o2 absorber, I was able to keep it bagged in a ziplock in the fridge for at least a year and it tasted great (it might've been 2.5 years even). They should be shelf stable at this point, but I haven't tested that as long.

Here's how it looks:

Passes the snap test and tastes delicious!

Just going to do a few more batches to verify the above recipe/cook schedule, and that'll be it! I can then post a complete end-to-end recipe and guide for these guys and for others to enjoy a truly dry meaty snack stick that tastes as much like jerky as it does a sausage. Beautiful.

(Possibly a drying chamber isn't needed either. I'll do one or two more test indoors at room temps, maybe for 2 days, to see if that works. Maybe I somehow had done something wrong across those four batches, or maybe the adjusted grind will help... we'll see).

 

[geostriata]

My last step might be contentious for some, because with most snack stick recipes, it will result in the bag becoming cloudy with humidity and moisture, which will in turn degrade the snack sticks and be a bad idea overall.

The key here is that the moisture content in the sticks is less than the ambient air in the bag. As such, the stick itself with suck out the moisture in the bag. The parts will the least amount of moisture (the surface) will absorb the most moisture, which will equalize the moisture and rehydrate the skin to an extent (there's a point where your stick can be too dry for this).

So in short:

• Wet Sticks (Moisture > Ambient - 10%): Don't bag. These sticks will get less good over time. Dry more for dry snack sticks. Or eat as is if you want floppy sausage sticks.
• Right Dryness (Moisture < Ambient - 15% or so): Bag if you want casing softer. These will equalize and get better over time (until moisture stops dropping).
• Too Dry (Moisture < Ambient - 30% or so): Toss. I haven't been able to recover sticks when they get to this level, possibly there's a way.

Here's an example from the batch above:

Moisture on the sticks will be less around the surface and rise as you get to the center. The 60% figure I placed on the bag was for the center at the date I bagged the sticks (4-11).

At the time I bagged, the meter was reading about 55% RH ambient. I then seal the bag, and it spikes to 82% (as measured on 4-15). It takes a day or so to spike. Why does it spike? Maybe a function of how I suck in the air from my chamber vac... Or condensation as I bag... Frankly I'm not sure... The one thing I do know is that, as you add more sticks the spike is smaller and the rate of RH decrease is greater.

So, as you can see, the moisture decreased from 82% to 80% over two days. This will continue for a few more days and eventually settle and stop decreasing. At that point, you have equilibrium.

At that point, if your sticks were dry enough, they are shelf stable. You only then need to worry about the oxygen in the bag causing fat to go rancid over months. Hence the o2 absorber.

Hope that explains my final step. That's the theory and experimental results around it, at least.

 

[agcrock2005]

This is getting VERY complicated! I love your intensity! You went all in on snack sticks, and I bet they're freakin phenomenal.

 

[geostriata]

This is getting VERY complicated! I love your intensity! You went all in on snack sticks, and I bet they're freakin phenomenal.

Thanks! I did go all-in, but also I want to caveat a bit since I'm doing things unconventional here.

I think maybe there are two sorts of camps:

• Those that want the soft and floppy slim-jim type snack sticks, and to elevate that type of course with great artisan flavor and I respect that. You could call these "sausage sticks"
• Those who want the firm and jerky-like snack sticks which seem to have fallen out of fashion and are hard to obtain. You could call these "dry sticks"

It's the latter I'm trying to derive a recipe/procedure for, as I haven't seen anything out there on the internet or here at SMF that does that. I think these are phenomenal for what I want, but I also want to respect those that want a more juicy sausage-like texture. I'm not saying that mine is better, I'm just saying that this "dry" style is the goal for me (which I can't find anymore, but it does seem some old traditional recipes like Mysliwska seem to create).

I'm hoping that maybe the dry-chamber is unnecessary and that with better binding, the air-drying room-temperature approach will be viable, and there'll be a protocol/recipe for this that can be more easily done than what I've done here. I'll keep this in mind as I experiment on the next batch. It'd be great if I could simplify this recipe/cook for those that are interested.

 

[agcrock2005]

I'm hoping that maybe the dry-chamber is unnecessary and that with better binding, the air-drying room-temperature approach will be viable, and there'll be a protocol/recipe for this that can be more easily done than what I've done here. I'll keep this in mind as I experiment on the next batch. It'd be great if I could simplify this recipe/cook for those that are interested.

I love the thread. I'm very much hopeful the drying chamber isn't necessary either! Look forward to your continued practice until it's perfected! Save me some time and money maybe. Ha.

 

[geostriata]

Today I noticed that batch #39A had stabilized moisture levels (peaked to 73% and stabilized to an ideal 69%) after about 9 days in the ziplock bag. After a 12hr smoke + 2hr bloom, and I simply tossed it a ziplock at room temperature in its dry/tough state with a hygrometer to track moisture.

To recap #39A:

• Batch #39A - Mince method (almost a dice -- I got the cubes as big as possible in my 15mm stuffer). I recently learned the benefit in fine-grinding the fattier parts, so I took that approach here. 25% fine fatty grind (~50% fat), 50% coarse grind (~30%fat), 25% dice/mince lean. I also returned the binder to at 16g per meat pound. Also increased water to 75g per lb of meat. This batch goes to smoker after hanging at room temp for an hour.

It was absolutely delicious! Tender, dry, and firm. Snap test was passed perfectly. It tasted better than #41 (but I'm sure that one will improve as well).

The great thing about this one, is that I have a bunch of data on the particular piece I just ate. Here's it's weight as it went through the smoker:

• Initial Weight: 35.97g
• 1.5hr: 27.99g (140F, light smoke)
• 3hr: 25.10g
• 6hr: 23.09g
• 7hr: 21.62g
• 13hr: 15.45g (1 hour of this no smoke finish at 168F to IT 155)

Since #39A was a success, I've learned the following:

• No pre-cook rest needed. No need to let the links rest for a day before smoking for improved flavor. #39B was the same batch, but I let it rest for a day. They taste indistinguishable from each other after 9 days had passed (though #39B tasted better right out of the smoker).
• No air drying / drying chamber needed: Just cook them at 140 until ~55% weight loss, finish, ice bath, bloom for 2hrs, and into the ziplock with the o2 absorber. The other benefit is the final equalizing container can be the container you simply leave them in.
• No refrigeration needed: All equalization occurred at room temp. Easy.
• Ziplocks OK: This particular piece was in a simple ziplock bag. Other later batches, I tried to use my sealer to inject a consistent amount of air into the bag. Looks like that's not needed (though still could be a good idea for batch consistency).

However, #39 did have a binder. So since that's a difference, I'm going to make two more batches to verify. #42A (without binder) and #42B (with binder). At that point, I should have this all figured out!

 

[geostriata]

Done!

It's been an amazing journey, and I still have a bit of optimization to go, but I've now twice reliably reproduced the (accidental) awesomeness of batch 41. Once with "recovery" methods on batch #43 and just now with batch #49 end-to-end. The schedule is insane but at least it's reproduceable now (for me, at least).

Before going into that, a few learnings from my past seven batch experiments (feel free to skip if you want to jump to the solution):

1. Batch 43: I was curious about the difference between potato starch and nonfat dairy milk powder. This started as that, with a schedule of dry 30mins at 105, smoke 1hr@125, 1hr@135, 12hr@140, finish 1hr @170. At this point, I saw no difference between potato starch and no binder at all (similar to NFDM). Really shows that if you get your mix & protein extraction right, you don't need a binder for snack sticks. However, since I saw now real difference between 43 and prior batches, I was discouraged. The sticks were okay, but not dry enough. Moisture levels around 60% with a tough casing. I decided to bag the batch and leave in my 65F chamber to equalize.
2. Batch 44: I tried to take a cue from Mariansky on this one. Use two smoke cycles (see Myśliwska recipe on his website). There he has two smoke cycles with a 90F rest between them. There's a brilliance in this in that, once the links have had a time to moisture-equalize, you can get further drying. Unfortunately, I had too much smoke. After about hour 16 (hour 4 on second smoke) I noted that weight loss stopped happening. The smoke layer was preventing any further loss in moisture. I do use a very light smoke, but after 16hrs of smoke on these small diameter sticks, it's too much...
3. Batch 45: In this batch I experimented with humidity in the smoke chamber. I performed the first smoke as with 43/44, but for the second smoke, I increased humidity in the chamber (45A no smoke, 45B humid smoke, 45C no smoke then gradual humid smoke). Despite my thinking, there was really no difference. Humidity helped with IT of the sticks, but other than that, didn't have that much of an impact.
4. Batch 46: I hadn't tried a 13+ hr smoke in batch 45. So let's see if humidity helps with the "too much smoke" problem of batch 44. Nope, it doesn't. It makes it worse (as I'm sure folks here already know).
5. Batch 47: Thinking back, slavikborisov mentioned sous vide as an option. So I decided to test this by comparing 47A (sous vide to IT then 12hr smoke) vs. 47B (12hr smoke, then finish with sous vide). 47A was terrible! You simply cannot start with sous vide. However, the 47B experiment showed that sous vide at the end wasn't that bad. It "healed" the casing a bit, but also ultimately puffed up my casings a bit too much. Maybe if I don't sous vide as a way to get to IT, but instead as a way to soften the exterior...
6. Batch 48: This one was an awful shame. Just when I felt like I was getting somewhere, my burr grinder failed. So I used some of the "dust" created by wetting pellets, crushing them, and leaving them to dry. This stuff burns like fuel and just obliterated my snack sticks with thick and heavy smoke that ultimately I couldn't recover from. Batch tossed :(. Burr grinding is the way for dust imo.
7. Batch 49: This was two experiments in one. The first is the "minimal smoke" experiment, where smoke isn't added until the end since with too much smoke, it can actually impair drying at a point. The second is the "get to IT first with humidity" experiment, where (with batch 45 I learned how humidity helps with heating). For the same reason you wrap a brisket to get past the stall, you can benefit from a little humidity to get your stack sticks to IT. This is the winner batch. It all worked perfectly. Details below in the solution.

Around the time of batch 48, I took those old sticks from batch 43 and rehydrated them for a minute with sous vide at 151. What I discovered is that the casings immediately recovered and became so much more tender and juicy, while counterintuitively, the sticks read a very low 50% on my meat humidity sensor. I then took a sample, stuck it in a vacuum sealed bag with a hygrometer and compared. Both bags ended at around 69% RH. This means that despite being tender/juicy, these sticks are shelf stable. Exactly what I'm looking for!!! slavikborisov thank you thank you thank you for mentioning sous vide! What I needed (without fully realizing) was a way to consistently recover from case hardening. With prior batches, I tried with a ziplock bag, but it's very easy to undershoot or overshoot the dryness. With sous vide, it really helps to get more repeatable results.

So the solution is this:

1. Achieve ~57-60% weight loss through heating at 145F.
2. Sous vide @ 151F for 30sec to a minute to rehydrate casing
3. After rehydrating, bag the sticks to equalize moisture and preserve moisture.

In practice, the above resulted in the following cook for batch #49 (15mm sticks):

1. Add water pan and "smoker soaker towel" to smoker
2. Set to 170F for 1hr with sticks (humidity should be 40-50%)
3. Check sticks internal temperature. If not at 150yet, do another 30 mins.
4. Remove water pan and towel.
5. Set to 145F and cook for 21hr without smoke (yes you read that right!)
6. Add a very light smoke for 4-8 hours, dampers fully open.
7. After a total of 30hrs at 145F rinse the sticks in hot water (another tip from Mariansky to clear any fat/smoke from pores).
8. Sous vide at 151F for 30sec to tenderize the casing a bit more. (For those that are concerned about re-adding moisture. When they are this dry, a 30 sec bath at 151F only increases weight by about 1.2% due to moisture).
9. Then rinse in cold water and chill. Since these are only 15mm sticks, instead of bothering with an ice bath, you can simply toss em in the freezer for two minutes to chill quickly.
10. Chill, bloom for 2hrs at room temp, and bag to preserve current dryness.

This resulted in the following:

Absolutely wonderful.

For those that are more patient, I think you could skip the 30hr cook/smoke at 145F for (by my calculations) about 2-3 weeks at 65F/70%RH. In this case you could just cook to IT, smoke as much as you like, and leave to dry until 57%-60% weight loss. Then proceed with sous vide or skip sous vide entirely and bag and wait for at least a week for equalization (this is how I got the miracle of batch #43). Even if you just leave in a drying chamber, the casing will still need re-tenderizing/re-equalization somehow.

Since I'm about making the most the quickest way, I plan to keep using the 30hr approach with sous vide. Would love to hear if any folks out there tried this and had success. I do believe there will be minor variation if your ambient humidity is different from California and tremendous difference if you use larger than 15mm casings, but you should be able to adjust the schedule accordingly. 16mm/17mm would actually be more forgiving, I'd think.

 

[slavikborisov]

Done!

It's been an amazing journey, and I still have a bit of optimization to go, but I've now twice reliably reproduced the (accidental) awesomeness of batch 41. Once with "recovery" methods on batch #43 and just now with batch #49 end-to-end. The schedule is insane but at least it's reproduceable now (for me, at least).

Before going into that, a few learnings from my past seven batch experiments (feel free to skip if you want to jump to the solution):

1. Batch 43: I was curious about the difference between potato starch and nonfat dairy milk powder. This started as that, with a schedule of dry 30mins at 105, smoke 1hr@125, 1hr@135, 12hr@140, finish 1hr @170. At this point, I saw no difference between potato starch and no binder at all (similar to NFDM). Really shows that if you get your mix & protein extraction right, you don't need a binder for snack sticks. However, since I saw now real difference between 43 and prior batches, I was discouraged. The sticks were okay, but not dry enough. Moisture levels around 60% with a tough casing. I decided to bag the batch and leave in my 65F chamber to equalize.
2. Batch 44: I tried to take a cue from Mariansky on this one. Use two smoke cycles (see Myśliwska recipe on his website). There he has two smoke cycles with a 90F rest between them. There's a brilliance in this in that, once the links have had a time to moisture-equalize, you can get further drying. Unfortunately, I had too much smoke. After about hour 16 (hour 4 on second smoke) I noted that weight loss stopped happening. The smoke layer was preventing any further loss in moisture. I do use a very light smoke, but after 16hrs of smoke on these small diameter sticks, it's too much...
3. Batch 45: In this batch I experimented with humidity in the smoke chamber. I performed the first smoke as with 43/44, but for the second smoke, I increased humidity in the chamber (45A no smoke, 45B humid smoke, 45C no smoke then gradual humid smoke). Despite my thinking, there was really no difference. Humidity helped with IT of the sticks, but other than that, didn't have that much of an impact.
4. Batch 46: I hadn't tried a 13+ hr smoke in batch 45. So let's see if humidity helps with the "too much smoke" problem of batch 44. Nope, it doesn't. It makes it worse (as I'm sure folks here already know).
5. Batch 47: Thinking back, slavikborisov mentioned sous vide as an option. So I decided to test this by comparing 47A (sous vide to IT then 12hr smoke) vs. 47B (12hr smoke, then finish with sous vide). 47A was terrible! You simply cannot start with sous vide. However, the 47B experiment showed that sous vide at the end wasn't that bad. It "healed" the casing a bit, but also ultimately puffed up my casings a bit too much. Maybe if I don't sous vide as a way to get to IT, but instead as a way to soften the exterior...
6. Batch 48: This one was an awful shame. Just when I felt like I was getting somewhere, my burr grinder failed. So I used some of the "dust" created by wetting pellets, crushing them, and leaving them to dry. This stuff burns like fuel and just obliterated my snack sticks with thick and heavy smoke that ultimately I couldn't recover from. Batch tossed :(. Burr grinding is the way for dust imo.
7. Batch 49: This was two experiments in one. The first is the "minimal smoke" experiment, where smoke isn't added until the end since with too much smoke, it can actually impair drying at a point. The second is the "get to IT first with humidity" experiment, where (with batch 45 I learned how humidity helps with heating). For the same reason you wrap a brisket to get past the stall, you can benefit from a little humidity to get your stack sticks to IT. This is the winner batch. It all worked perfectly. Details below in the solution.

Around the time of batch 48, I took those old sticks from batch 43 and rehydrated them for a minute with sous vide at 151. What I discovered is that the casings immediately recovered and became so much more tender and juicy, while counterintuitively, the sticks read a very low 50% on my meat humidity sensor. I then took a sample, stuck it in a vacuum sealed bag with a hygrometer and compared. Both bags ended at around 69% RH. This means that despite being tender/juicy, these sticks are shelf stable. Exactly what I'm looking for!!! slavikborisov thank you thank you thank you for mentioning sous vide! What I needed (without fully realizing) was a way to consistently recover from case hardening. With prior batches, I tried with a ziplock bag, but it's very easy to undershoot or overshoot the dryness. With sous vide, it really helps to get more repeatable results.

So the solution is this:

1. Achieve ~57-60% weight loss through heating at 145F.
2. Sous vide @ 151F for 30sec to a minute to rehydrate casing
3. After rehydrating, bag the sticks to equalize moisture and preserve moisture.

In practice, the above resulted in the following cook for batch #49 (15mm sticks):

1. Add water pan and "smoker soaker towel" to smoker
2. Set to 170F for 1hr with sticks (humidity should be 40-50%)
3. Check sticks internal temperature. If not at 150yet, do another 30 mins.
4. Remove water pan and towel.
5. Set to 145F and cook for 21hr without smoke (yes you read that right!)
6. Add a very light smoke for 4-8 hours, dampers fully open.
7. After a total of 30hrs at 145F rinse the sticks in hot water (another tip from Mariansky to clear any fat/smoke from pores).
8. Sous vide at 151F for 30sec to tenderize the casing a bit more. (For those that are concerned about re-adding moisture. When they are this dry, a 30 sec bath at 151F only increases weight by about 1.2% due to moisture).
9. Then rinse in cold water and chill. Since these are only 15mm sticks, instead of bothering with an ice bath, you can simply toss em in the freezer for two minutes to chill quickly.
10. Chill, bloom for 2hrs at room temp, and bag to preserve current dryness.

This resulted in the following:
View attachment 696052

Absolutely wonderful.

For those that are more patient, I think you could skip the 30hr cook/smoke at 145F for (by my calculations) about 2-3 weeks at 65F/70%RH. In this case you could just cook to IT, smoke as much as you like, and leave to dry until 57%-60% weight loss. Then proceed with sous vide or skip sous vide entirely and bag and wait for at least a week for equalization (this is how I got the miracle of batch #43). Even if you just leave in a drying chamber, the casing will still need re-tenderizing/re-equalization somehow.

Since I'm about making the most the quickest way, I plan to keep using the 30hr approach with sous vide. Would love to hear if any folks out there tried this and had success. I do believe there will be minor variation if your ambient humidity is different from California and tremendous difference if you use larger than 15mm casings, but you should be able to adjust the schedule accordingly. 16mm/17mm would actually be more forgiving, I'd think.

No problem! Im Glad you got what you set out to find !!! Appreciate you posting your journey, I learned a lot from it !

 

[agcrock2005]

Done!

It's been an amazing journey, and I still have a bit of optimization to go, but I've now twice reliably reproduced the (accidental) awesomeness of batch 41. Once with "recovery" methods on batch #43 and just now with batch #49 end-to-end. The schedule is insane but at least it's reproduceable now (for me, at least).

Before going into that, a few learnings from my past seven batch experiments (feel free to skip if you want to jump to the solution):

1. Batch 43: I was curious about the difference between potato starch and nonfat dairy milk powder. This started as that, with a schedule of dry 30mins at 105, smoke 1hr@125, 1hr@135, 12hr@140, finish 1hr @170. At this point, I saw no difference between potato starch and no binder at all (similar to NFDM). Really shows that if you get your mix & protein extraction right, you don't need a binder for snack sticks. However, since I saw now real difference between 43 and prior batches, I was discouraged. The sticks were okay, but not dry enough. Moisture levels around 60% with a tough casing. I decided to bag the batch and leave in my 65F chamber to equalize.
2. Batch 44: I tried to take a cue from Mariansky on this one. Use two smoke cycles (see Myśliwska recipe on his website). There he has two smoke cycles with a 90F rest between them. There's a brilliance in this in that, once the links have had a time to moisture-equalize, you can get further drying. Unfortunately, I had too much smoke. After about hour 16 (hour 4 on second smoke) I noted that weight loss stopped happening. The smoke layer was preventing any further loss in moisture. I do use a very light smoke, but after 16hrs of smoke on these small diameter sticks, it's too much...
3. Batch 45: In this batch I experimented with humidity in the smoke chamber. I performed the first smoke as with 43/44, but for the second smoke, I increased humidity in the chamber (45A no smoke, 45B humid smoke, 45C no smoke then gradual humid smoke). Despite my thinking, there was really no difference. Humidity helped with IT of the sticks, but other than that, didn't have that much of an impact.
4. Batch 46: I hadn't tried a 13+ hr smoke in batch 45. So let's see if humidity helps with the "too much smoke" problem of batch 44. Nope, it doesn't. It makes it worse (as I'm sure folks here already know).
5. Batch 47: Thinking back, slavikborisov mentioned sous vide as an option. So I decided to test this by comparing 47A (sous vide to IT then 12hr smoke) vs. 47B (12hr smoke, then finish with sous vide). 47A was terrible! You simply cannot start with sous vide. However, the 47B experiment showed that sous vide at the end wasn't that bad. It "healed" the casing a bit, but also ultimately puffed up my casings a bit too much. Maybe if I don't sous vide as a way to get to IT, but instead as a way to soften the exterior...
6. Batch 48: This one was an awful shame. Just when I felt like I was getting somewhere, my burr grinder failed. So I used some of the "dust" created by wetting pellets, crushing them, and leaving them to dry. This stuff burns like fuel and just obliterated my snack sticks with thick and heavy smoke that ultimately I couldn't recover from. Batch tossed :(. Burr grinding is the way for dust imo.
7. Batch 49: This was two experiments in one. The first is the "minimal smoke" experiment, where smoke isn't added until the end since with too much smoke, it can actually impair drying at a point. The second is the "get to IT first with humidity" experiment, where (with batch 45 I learned how humidity helps with heating). For the same reason you wrap a brisket to get past the stall, you can benefit from a little humidity to get your stack sticks to IT. This is the winner batch. It all worked perfectly. Details below in the solution.

Around the time of batch 48, I took those old sticks from batch 43 and rehydrated them for a minute with sous vide at 151. What I discovered is that the casings immediately recovered and became so much more tender and juicy, while counterintuitively, the sticks read a very low 50% on my meat humidity sensor. I then took a sample, stuck it in a vacuum sealed bag with a hygrometer and compared. Both bags ended at around 69% RH. This means that despite being tender/juicy, these sticks are shelf stable. Exactly what I'm looking for!!! slavikborisov thank you thank you thank you for mentioning sous vide! What I needed (without fully realizing) was a way to consistently recover from case hardening. With prior batches, I tried with a ziplock bag, but it's very easy to undershoot or overshoot the dryness. With sous vide, it really helps to get more repeatable results.

So the solution is this:

1. Achieve ~57-60% weight loss through heating at 145F.
2. Sous vide @ 151F for 30sec to a minute to rehydrate casing
3. After rehydrating, bag the sticks to equalize moisture and preserve moisture.

In practice, the above resulted in the following cook for batch #49 (15mm sticks):

1. Add water pan and "smoker soaker towel" to smoker
2. Set to 170F for 1hr with sticks (humidity should be 40-50%)
3. Check sticks internal temperature. If not at 150yet, do another 30 mins.
4. Remove water pan and towel.
5. Set to 145F and cook for 21hr without smoke (yes you read that right!)
6. Add a very light smoke for 4-8 hours, dampers fully open.
7. After a total of 30hrs at 145F rinse the sticks in hot water (another tip from Mariansky to clear any fat/smoke from pores).
8. Sous vide at 151F for 30sec to tenderize the casing a bit more. (For those that are concerned about re-adding moisture. When they are this dry, a 30 sec bath at 151F only increases weight by about 1.2% due to moisture).
9. Then rinse in cold water and chill. Since these are only 15mm sticks, instead of bothering with an ice bath, you can simply toss em in the freezer for two minutes to chill quickly.
10. Chill, bloom for 2hrs at room temp, and bag to preserve current dryness.

This resulted in the following:
View attachment 696052

Absolutely wonderful.

For those that are more patient, I think you could skip the 30hr cook/smoke at 145F for (by my calculations) about 2-3 weeks at 65F/70%RH. In this case you could just cook to IT, smoke as much as you like, and leave to dry until 57%-60% weight loss. Then proceed with sous vide or skip sous vide entirely and bag and wait for at least a week for equalization (this is how I got the miracle of batch #43). Even if you just leave in a drying chamber, the casing will still need re-tenderizing/re-equalization somehow.

Since I'm about making the most the quickest way, I plan to keep using the 30hr approach with sous vide. Would love to hear if any folks out there tried this and had success. I do believe there will be minor variation if your ambient humidity is different from California and tremendous difference if you use larger than 15mm casings, but you should be able to adjust the schedule accordingly. 16mm/17mm would actually be more forgiving, I'd think.

What kind of bag are you using to equalize after the sous vide process? And, you're getting your sticks to 150 internal with only one hour of cook? Fat doesn't render out doing that? Thanks for all the information on this thread.