Botsulism: Just cursious about the safety always preached.

[fpmich]

I've been reading some about botulism.

I've a question about why everyone is so concerned about it when smoking.

We have 320 million in the US. and only about 15 cases of botulism that is food borne.  Most of those are in western states with high elevation, and Alaska.

The rest of the 150 cases a year are mostly from infant botulism, wound botulism, or commercially prepared foods.

That 15 food borne in 320 million relates to about your chances of contacting botulism while smoking meat, or canning food, to roughly .000000000146484 in a million.

(if my math is off, please correct me)  My cheapo calculator doesn't have that many digits, so I did it by hand.

But... most of those 15 cases of botulism came from home canned, or commercially prepared food.

So....  Why should I worry about if I miss my 40* to 140* by a few minutes to an hour?  Or why take jerky to 160* when drying?

I stand a better chance of dying, from pulling out onto road while going to store I think.      We're ALL going to die.  Pick your own way to worry about.

I'd rather die in 4 to 20 days with a stick of jerky, smoked fish or ribs in my mouth, than linger in pain for months or years from some disease!!!

Now, I am not preaching ignore all safety practices.   I always do my best with hygiene and food treatment.  Same as Grandpa  and Parents.  Common sense, I think it is called.

There are more prevalent food poisoning  than Bot.  They make you very sick and may occasionally kill you.

I think the real danger comes not your cooking method, but rather from where you buy you meat, and how it was processed before you bought it.

You NEVER saw a fresh killed chicken being washed when we were growing up.  Kill it, bleed it, scald it to remove feather, torch or burn off pin feather on flame, then stick in fridge, can, or cook for dinner.  You can't get that taste from Tyson with those baby chicks they sell!

If I've stepped on any safety police toes, my apologies.

This post is just my opinion.  If you disagree with me, please enlighten me as to why.  I'm always willing to learn.  That is why I am on this forum.

 

[foamheart]

If I've stepped on any safety police toes, my apologies.

This post is just my opinion.  If you disagree with me, please enlighten me as to why.  I'm always willing to learn.  That is why I am on this forum.

I look at it this way, the odds of winning the lotto are much the same, but someone still wins. I have eatten things a wild dog would have backed away from and as you say, never had much more than the GI's. But it doesn't mean that the next Lotto ticket I buy won't be the winner. Even if I don't win the big prize, Believe me I have won some of the smaller "consulation" prizes.

I can do a lot of things if its just me. But we are here at this site to learn but also to help others. Would you take the chance on causing someone else's misery and grief? Simply because we may not have seen it, because of others following those safe practices you are disallowing due to the odds, there are still those who have won the lotto. Is that how you'd want others to learn who are not as experienced as you?

If you are going to share you don't know the level of food safety mastery of those reading a post, and since there is no way of telling, why not treat each as if its a new comer to snoking/cooking. Is it so hard to go ahead and show the right way as opposed to adding a extrat paragraph to each thread with a disclaimer?

Thats why I always here go by the government standards, not because I am affraid (If you knew my usual luck you'd laugh at this statement), but because someone else might see something and attempt it themselves. I want to share what I do that is good, and not accidently or intentionally lead them on a path that had even the smallest possibility of causing them ill.

I think its a standard agreed to by everyone that comes here. An ounce of prevention is better than....... you've herad it before. Maybe, safe not sorry?

Its why I do it. Were I teaching my own son, I would be the same way.

 

[gary s]

Foam ---  

 

 

Gary

 

[atomicsmoke]

The "15" number is actually % not number of cases. It still doesnt change the odds significantly, just an FYI.

The level of botulism paranoia on SMF is one for textbooks. If you read nothing but the advice here you would be afraid of dry cheese left on the counter (wrapped) for a day. I read an old thread where the OP was advised repeatedly to trash a ham cured in brine (salt only, correct amount), at fridge temps for 30 days.

Having said that ...don't forget "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you". While odds are in our favour botulism toxin is the deadliest poison known.

Botulism is a concern when consuming uncooked meats, or cooked meats that were not properly stored after. The 4-40-140 rule is not really to prevent botulism poisoning , since the toxin will be rendered harmless regardless of the time spent between 40-140, provided that the final IT rule is observed. Other bugs' poop however might not be denatured by heat, hence the rule.

Another myth promoted here and regurgitated on all popular BBQ, smoking and sausage making sites is that the cold smoking operation itself is the risky stage. I found no study or data to show this, just the generally accepted assumption: botulism bacteria thrives in oxygen deprived environments, therefore it must love the inside of the smoker.

Even FDA supports the fact that there is no botulism organism activity during cold smoking.

Studies I've seen show organism growth during the (improper) storage stage.

If someone has knowledge of a study showing botulism toxin levels immediately after cold smoking, not after a long storage time please let me know.

 

[bmaddox]

 
I look at it this way, the odds of winning the lotto are much the same, but someone still wins.

This is a perfect response. With the uncertainty of food handling before you purchase it, you should take every measure possible to ensure it is safe.

I have a 1.5 year old daughter who eats the food I smoke. When it comes to her, even some of the lesser food borne illnesses would be a disaster. The last thing I want is a toddler who can't stop throwing up.

 

[atomicsmoke]

"I think the real danger comes not your cooking method, but rather from where you buy you meat, and how it was processed before you bought it."
_-------
Unfortunately that is the main concern and nothing is done about it. It's legal to sell contaminated meat. They might as well list salmonella on the ingredients label.

 

[wade]

 
That 15 food borne in 320 million relates to about your chances of contacting botulism while smoking meat, or canning food, to roughly .000000000146484 in a million.

(if my math is off, please correct me)  My cheapo calculator doesn't have that many digits, so I did it by hand.

But... most of those 15 cases of botulism came from home canned, or commercially prepared food.

So....  Why should I worry about if I miss my 40* to 140* by a few minutes to an hour?  Or why take jerky to 160* when drying?

I stand a better chance of dying, from pulling out onto road while going to store I think.      We're ALL going to die.  Pick your own way to worry about.

I'd rather die in 4 to 20 days with a stick of jerky, smoked fish or ribs in my mouth, than linger in pain for months or years from some disease!!!

The subject of food safety needs to be taken as a whole and should not be separated out into specific organisms. Yes, the instances of some food related illnesses are rare however they affect different people in different ways. What is perfectly safe for some can be life-threatening for others. On here we promote the USDA guidelines for commercial food safety as they naturally result in good food hygine and they are there to protect the more vulnerable individuals as well as those with "stomachs of steel". Some people who are suffering from a food related illness may not even realise that they are, as the symptoms can appear many hours after ingestion and appear flu-like. 

It is understandable that some folks want to stick with "traditional" ways of food preparation, however as it takes so little additional effort to comply with the guidelines, to me anyway, it is a no-brainer to follow good practice. When preparing food for yourself it is really up to you whether you feel comfortable eating it - but as soon as you start sharing it with others then that is a completely different situation. Their expectation is that the food you serve them will be totally safe to eat.

OK, from your statistics the odds of specifically contracting Botulism poisoning may be similar to winning the lottery however why take that risk. Every week someone DOES win the lottery. How would it feel if someone had not followed good food safety practice and the "lucky" winner happened to be a wife or son/daughter. If it happened to be a friend or neibour then, as well as the feelings of gilt and regret, the following litigation does not bear thinking about.

The guidelines obviously have safety margins built into them and when cooking at home, providing you understand where they are, then you can take an informed decision as to whether they are critical in a home-smoking environment. So, would I bin my meat if I miss my 40* to 140* by a few minutes? No. Would I take jerky to 160* when drying? No I don't. But would I eat salami or chorizo that did not contain cure that had been vac packed for storage after drying? The answer to that would be a resounding NO too.

Updated to correct spelling mistakes - where is Microsoft Spell Check when you need it most?

 

[kc5tpy]

Hello..  I have to agree.  When you are sharing knowledge the responsibility falls square in your lap to make sure the person receiving that knowledge has all the tools necessary to use the knowledge in a safe manner.  As has been pointed out you don't know the level of experience the other person has; SO you take every one to the beginning.  We still take a LOT for granted here.  I once had an assignment in a course I took:  Pretend you are talking to a Martian and then write a set of instructions as to how to wrap a Christmas gift.  Then following ONLY your own instructions; try to wrap a box.  Hint: you need to explain why the box needs to be wrapped in the first place and where to find wrapping paper and a box.  You will be surprised!  When you read instructions for a hair dryer you will probably find it says not to be used in the shower.  Now, the only reason I can figure why they would add that is that some fool must have tried using it in the shower.  It never said NOT to use it in the shower.   

  Keep Smokin!

Danny

 

[daveomak]

The "15" number is actually % not number of cases. It still doesnt change the odds significantly, just an FYI.

The level of botulism paranoia on SMF is one for textbooks. If you read nothing but the advice here you would be afraid of dry cheese left on the counter (wrapped) for a day. I read an old thread where the OP was advised repeatedly to trash a ham cured in brine (salt only, correct amount), at fridge temps for 30 days.

Having said that ...don't forget "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you". While odds are in our favour botulism toxin is the deadliest poison known.

Botulism is a concern when consuming uncooked meats, or cooked meats that were not properly stored after. The 4-40-140 rule is not really to prevent botulism poisoning , since the toxin will be rendered harmless regardless of the time spent between 40-140, provided that the final IT rule is observed. Other bugs' poop however might not be denatured by heat, hence the rule.

Another myth promoted here and regurgitated on all popular BBQ, smoking and sausage making sites is that the cold smoking operation itself is the risky stage. I found no study or data to show this, just the generally accepted assumption: botulism bacteria thrives in oxygen deprived environments, therefore it must love the inside of the smoker.

Even FDA supports the fact that there is no botulism organism activity during cold smoking.

Please site the FDA statement that supports your comment....

Studies I've seen show organism growth during the (improper) storage stage.

If someone has knowledge of a study showing botulism toxin levels immediately after cold smoking, not after a long storage time please let me know.

 

[daveomak]

You need to read this.....


http://www.tarakharper.com/b_botuln.htm

 

[rgautheir20420]

I don't understand why this topic comes up so much. People on this forum should know by now and understand it's viewpoint of food safety. If not...it's right there for you to read. I can understand experiments done to test processes (like Wade's), but I can't understand a thread like this that gets started simply to question WHY. Probably every person that has commented on this thread has commented somewhere before about their standpoint on food safety. Does this topic really require thread after thread of the OP asking for others to explain why they do things by the USDA? 

If you don't want to follow the USDA guidelines for proper preparation for food safety then don't. It's your call. At this point, you're not learning anything you already know....you're asking people to attempt to sway your mind (which I'm sure is already made up and you're gonna do it like you want anyway).

 

[tigerregis]

There are other pathogens besides botulism. When
I was in meat cutting school, we were taught that certain bacteria double in number every 20 minutes. These beasts are not conducive to human health. Even sanitising the block was scrupulously supervised.
Our health departments inspect for any violations and when I was in retail not sanitising the whole cutting room was grounds for dismissal.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Please site the FDA statement that supports your comment....

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodScienceResearch/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm099239.htm

Paragraph 4.2

 

[daveomak]

4.2. Cold smoking

Although the smoking process uses temperatures at which C. botulinum grows well, cold smoking is a highly aerated process; therefore, no growth of the organism occurs during this processing step.



Thanks.... that didn't make sense to me... Now it does... I knew the temperature zone was very conducive to botulism growth... but the oxygen supply takes care of multiplication of the organism.....

Although they may be correct with their statement, considering the reduction of oxygen, I'm still using nitrite in any meat I smoke.... If I screw it up once, that could be all it takes to....... turn out the lights... the parties over....


OK, I looked at the header on that form....... That is type E botulism found in fish....... that is NOT THE SAME botulism found in meats....

You can't make the assumption they act the same......

 

[atomicsmoke]

I gave you a highly credible source stating that botulism would not grow duringduring cold smoking. Do you have a credible source saying the type A, B can grow in a smoker environment? Not the regurgitated material from meatsandsausages.

 

[kc5tpy]

Hello.  We can argue USDA, FDA and all the other alphabet organisations but the obvious question is being forgotten.  If you KNOW that skipping a step exposes your child to a 1 in 100 million chance of death;  WHY THA HE** WOULD YOU DO IT????  We aren't talking accidents.  Driving down the road and such.  We are talking NEGLIGENCE!  In a court of law one could easily make a case for manslaughter ( actions you took or omitted that any reasonable person could have foreseen MAY have resulted in the injury or death of another )  AND if you caused the death of your own child???  This whole discussion is really silly in my humble opinion.  Why would you not pass on the safety rules??  I'm with RG here.  I guess these folks would give their children a firearm without proper instruction!  Chances are they won't kill themselves or any one else.  

  LUDICROUS!  Have fun folks!  Outta here!  Keep Smokin!

Danny

 

[timberjet]

 
Foam ---  

 

 

Gary

x2

 

[timberjet]

 
Hello..  I have to agree.  When you are sharing knowledge the responsibility falls square in your lap to make sure the person receiving that knowledge has all the tools necessary to use the knowledge in a safe manner.  As has been pointed out you don't know the level of experience the other person has; SO you take every one to the beginning.  We still take a LOT for granted here.  I once had an assignment in a course I took:  Pretend you are talking to a Martian and then write a set of instructions as to how to wrap a Christmas gift.  Then following ONLY your own instructions; try to wrap a box.  Hint: you need to explain why the box needs to be wrapped in the first place and where to find wrapping paper and a box.  You will be surprised!  When you read instructions for a hair dryer you will probably find it says not to be used in the shower.  Now, the only reason I can figure why they would add that is that some fool must have tried using it in the shower.  It never said NOT to use it in the shower.   

  Keep Smokin!

Danny

I'm with danny. Better to teach right if you are doing the teaching.

 

[timberjet]

If you ever had it like I did when I lived in Hawaii after Hurricane Iniki and we had no refrigeration for nearly a year because of the lack of electrical infrastructure. Or knew someone that has had it and lived through it like I did you would not even question why to practice safe food handling and cooking practices. Period. I just hate these kind of stupid posts. If you want to do something that is blatantly idiotic and place your family and friends at risk then that's your business. There is no debating. Besides when you agreed to the terms to use this website you agreed to safe food handling.

 

[wade]

Steady on guys. I know we have tackled similar topics before, however not everyone can be expected to have read every post. Frank is perfectly entitled to pose the question again without the fear of being flamed by other members. I think he has probably got the message though that we all support following USDA guidelines here.