Salami... White mold and sticky cases??

[indaswamp]

A simple dish with a towel or rag hanging so the bottom is in the water will suffice to keep the humidity high if the need arises, but not as efficiently and a humidifier with a controller. It would be equivalent to the moisture being released from your salamis.

 

[haeffnkr]

A simple dish with a towel or rag hanging so the bottom is in the water will suffice to keep the humidity high if the need arises, but not as efficiently and a humidifier with a controller. It would be equivalent to the moisture being released from your salamis.

Great idea, thanks for your help!

I will post some pics as things progress.

haeffnkr

 

[indaswamp]

You can also weigh the initial weight, and track the weight loss. Salami should avg. 0.5-0.7% per day weight loss for even drying. It will lose more at the start of drying, and less towards the end, but should average out to 0.5-0.7%. If it is more than that then case hardening would be an issue. Use an accurate gram scale...

 

[mike k.]

Hey all I made some salami earlier this week and now I'm fermenting it at 72° with bactoform T-SPX... Starting to get little bit of white speck mold and the cases are starting to get a little sticky...I know I read it in other places but this is what I'm looking for right? just leave this alone? Going to move it over to my drying chamber tomorrow as it's been 3.5 days fermenting. I cured a lot of sausage but never fermented any salami....

Thanks in advance h a e f f n k

View attachment 482685View attachment 482684

rView attachment 482683

OK, so you are using just the humidity from the meats then to keep RH% high. I am not that lucky.

Here is the rule "green and white, it's alright, pink and black send it back."
There are several so called white molds that form on the skins of curing meat. All have clear and positive advantages for being there. They add a buttery/creamy taste to the meat when sliced and consumed. The white mold also acts as a protective layer warding off deadly pathogens such as e-coli, listeria, salmonella so on and so forth. I buy these molds and dip my salami's, sausages and pepperoni's prior to hanging up to cure and dry. I dry fresh cured meats at 58 to 65 degrees. Anywhere closer to 80 - 110 can be lethal. These are pathogen growth numbers especially if you are using starter cultures and not cooking the units. I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry. May not make sense to consider moisture as a important in the protocol for drying however almost every kind of stuffed casing product requires extended time to cure and dry to achieve a professional taste, texture and palatable product. Drying to fast without humidity causes pitting, aeration, powdering, milling, casing separation, poor color and undesirable flavor enhancement. If you can have a little patience let the mold go and it will cover the meat in total around a mil to 2 mils thick. This just means you are doing better than most pro's.
If you see green just spray vinegar on it and it dies. You can easily wipe the green off. I will not harm you unless you see pink or long fibers of grey extruding from a patch. Even so just remove it anyway you feel secure and let the white mold take over.
Here in the west of USA most folks run from white mold while most cultured easterners won't buy cure meats without the mold. Why is this, I attribute it to the multi European culture

More pics.
Overall I just wanted to know that this sausage is okay to continue to cure and dry?

View attachment 482710View attachment 482711

Correct :)
Got that set right now to stay between 86 and 87... will bump down as it gets dryer.

You need to be careful. Any temp over 70 requires caution. E-coli, Listeria, Salmonella, Botulism and other pantheons grow at a panic rate between 80 - 110 degrees F. Plus what they love the most, humidity and you will one day hurt, sicken or kill someone. That is avoidable with a little care and understanding. Exactly that 85 plus temp method killed an Arizona man after he ate what he thought was cured tasty meat.
Cold curing meat is fun and rewarding if done right. Beyond deadly if you don't know what your doing. So just a few precautions and a little education and you can be a master at this safely.
1. 55 to 69 degrees and your on the right path. I give you this from 45 years of flawless cured meat manufacturing in my USDA facility.
2. 67% to 85% humidity and your product will mature professionally. Need more moisture just set a pan or corning dish full of water under your product and that will up the numbers substantially. Moisture is critical to slow the dry process. Dry to fast and you will have pulpiness, particularization, poor color, powdering, granulating and just overall an undesirable finish to your product. Make soup out of it or toss it.
3. Do not remove the white mold. That white mold is an anti pathogen security blanket for your meat. It stops other pathogens from attacking your product. Keep this in your head permanently, " Green or white its alright, pink and black send it back!"
The white mold starts as little spots and grows to cover the total surface of the skin (especially natural and or collagen casings).
That white mold also tastes buttery and or creamy. Once it is on the full skin it aids in the slowdown of drying for obvious reasons. It can become 1 mil. - 3 mils thick.
3. I have found the easy cheap and quality culture starter to use is simple encapsulated citric acid, (lemon juice dried)
Yes you can buy those 10 dollar packs of starter and they work but you don't need them.
4. 2-3" salami should take as much as 6 weeks to cure and dry. You got to get the moisture content down below 1% or it has to be refrigerated.
Keep in mind we are talking about cold cure meat not cooked cured meats here. Cooked and dried meats are another conversation for another session.
5. Avoid at all cost buying ground meat from the grocery store. You have no clue what is in it and what has touched it. All ground meats at the retail level are for secondary processing by cooking before use. Always buy solid sections of meat and cut grind a prep yourself of by a trusted person who has the experience of preparing the meat for your particular purpose. Frozen meat never produce quality end products. Always start with fresh meat. Commercial pepperoni and sausage companies commonly use frozen meats and you can always taste the results. Just to address this so you know what is what.
When meat is frozen the micro capillary cells that hold the plasma and liquid proteins etc. burst from freezing, fluids digress from the structural chambers in the meat and you have a degraded integrity base to start with. Everybody wants their creation to look, taste, show and taste like a deli bought product. There is no luck in the end result. Follow a couple rules and you will have top notch results.
Always prepare your product with 42 - 45 degree chilled meat, never let it become warm during mixing, spicing or stuffing.
Try to keep ingredients of any kind under 4% so that you do not end up with a product that any given spice is over pronounced.
Ingredients, preparation, process, caution and patience is what it takes. Oh, I forgot! Write every part of what you do down including start/finish dates, times and temps, adjustments, mistakes, thoughts of changes like spices, fat %, meat blends, all your ingredients, take photos and never, never, never stop asking questions.
Never allow hanging meats to touch one another. Spacing is good at any distance of 1/8" apart or more. Just so they can have air pass around them. You will know when you product is done when is hard to the touch and vivid and semi transparent when you hold a thin slice up to the light. Any dull color in the center says it is not finished and needs to hang longer. You can hang it for over a year without issues. Some cured meats like prosciutto I leave for 24 months or more.
Once you think you think you know everything and have it 100% in the bag, burn down your smoke house and quit because that is when mistakes will happen the fun and challenges end.
If you do not have a moisture activity tester ($700.00 plus) you can check the moisture content an easier way. Weigh a thin slice of your meat on a gram scale. (E-bay $10.00) Weigh a small zip lock bag. Put the slice in the bag, microwave for 15 seconds, remove the slice and look at the water in the bag. Weigh the bag or the slice and determine plus or minus what water dissipated. More than a drop or two in the corner of the bag show to much water, more drying needed. This is a simple easy free way to check water activity. I you leave the microwave on more than 15 seconds you will melt the fat and that is not what we are measuring. Also, check PH levels. To high or to low is no good. You want around 5.1 - 5.4. for salami.
In conclusion the pictures you show exhibit a nice product start. Again do not worry about the mold. It is normal and shows your on the right path. In a few weeks you will be proud or disappointed based on what do from here. Use your smarts and you will be making all kinds of cured meats. If I can help you advance I'll do it for anyone that have pride and ambition. I have around 10 million pounds of all kinds of cured meat results to my credit. Not all I would rate 5 star. Even us Artisans screw up.
Since I am married, I at least have someone to blame............ Peace to all that love what we do, Michael

 

[indaswamp]

I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry.

50% humidity? Is that a typo?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here is the rule "green and white, it's alright, pink and black send it back."
There are several so called white molds that form on the skins of curing meat. All have clear and positive advantages for being there. They add a buttery/creamy taste to the meat when sliced and consumed. The white mold also acts as a protective layer warding off deadly pathogens such as e-coli, listeria, salmonella so on and so forth. I buy these molds and dip my salami's, sausages and pepperoni's prior to hanging up to cure and dry. I dry fresh cured meats at 58 to 65 degrees. Anywhere closer to 80 - 110 can be lethal. These are pathogen growth numbers especially if you are using starter cultures and not cooking the units. I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry. May not make sense to consider moisture as a important in the protocol for drying however almost every kind of stuffed casing product requires extended time to cure and dry to achieve a professional taste, texture and palatable product. Drying to fast without humidity causes pitting, aeration, powdering, milling, casing separation, poor color and undesirable flavor enhancement. If you can have a little patience let the mold go and it will cover the meat in total around a mil to 2 mils thick. This just means you are doing better than most pro's.
If you see green just spray vinegar on it and it dies. You can easily wipe the green off. I will not harm you unless you see pink or long fibers of grey extruding from a patch. Even so just remove it anyway you feel secure and let the white mold take over.
Here in the west of USA most folks run from white mold while most cultured easterners won't buy cure meats without the mold. Why is this, I attribute it to the multi European culture


You need to be careful. Any temp over 70 requires caution. E-coli, Listeria, Salmonella, Botulism and other pantheons grow at a panic rate between 80 - 110 degrees F. Plus what they love the most, humidity and you will one day hurt, sicken or kill someone. That is avoidable with a little care and understanding. Exactly that 85 plus temp method killed an Arizona man after he ate what he thought was cured tasty meat.
Cold curing meat is fun and rewarding if done right. Beyond deadly if you don't know what your doing. So just a few precautions and a little education and you can be a master at this safely.
1. 55 to 69 degrees and your on the right path. I give you this from 45 years of flawless cured meat manufacturing in my USDA facility.
2. 67% to 85% humidity and your product will mature professionally. Need more moisture just set a pan or corning dish full of water under your product and that will up the numbers substantially. Moisture is critical to slow the dry process. Dry to fast and you will have pulpiness, particularization, poor color, powdering, granulating and just overall an undesirable finish to your product. Make soup out of it or toss it.
3. Do not remove the white mold. That white mold is an anti pathogen security blanket for your meat. It stops other pathogens from attacking your product. Keep this in your head permanently, " Green or white its alright, pink and black send it back!"
The white mold starts as little spots and grows to cover the total surface of the skin (especially natural and or collagen casings).
That white mold also tastes buttery and or creamy. Once it is on the full skin it aids in the slowdown of drying for obvious reasons. It can become 1 mil. - 3 mils thick.
3. I have found the easy cheap and quality culture starter to use is simple encapsulated citric acid, (lemon juice dried)
Yes you can buy those 10 dollar packs of starter and they work but you don't need them.
4. 2-3" salami should take as much as 6 weeks to cure and dry. You got to get the moisture content down below 1% or it has to be refrigerated.
Keep in mind we are talking about cold cure meat not cooked cured meats here. Cooked and dried meats are another conversation for another session.
5. Avoid at all cost buying ground meat from the grocery store. You have no clue what is in it and what has touched it. All ground meats at the retail level are for secondary processing by cooking before use. Always buy solid sections of meat and cut grind a prep yourself of by a trusted person who has the experience of preparing the meat for your particular purpose. Frozen meat never produce quality end products. Always start with fresh meat. Commercial pepperoni and sausage companies commonly use frozen meats and you can always taste the results. Just to address this so you know what is what.
When meat is frozen the micro capillary cells that hold the plasma and liquid proteins etc. burst from freezing, fluids digress from the structural chambers in the meat and you have a degraded integrity base to start with. Everybody wants their creation to look, taste, show and taste like a deli bought product. There is no luck in the end result. Follow a couple rules and you will have top notch results.
Always prepare your product with 42 - 45 degree chilled meat, never let it become warm during mixing, spicing or stuffing.
Try to keep ingredients of any kind under 4% so that you do not end up with a product that any given spice is over pronounced.
Ingredients, preparation, process, caution and patience is what it takes. Oh, I forgot! Write every part of what you do down including start/finish dates, times and temps, adjustments, mistakes, thoughts of changes like spices, fat %, meat blends, all your ingredients, take photos and never, never, never stop asking questions.
Never allow hanging meats to touch one another. Spacing is good at any distance of 1/8" apart or more. Just so they can have air pass around them. You will know when you product is done when is hard to the touch and vivid and semi transparent when you hold a thin slice up to the light. Any dull color in the center says it is not finished and needs to hang longer. You can hang it for over a year without issues. Some cured meats like prosciutto I leave for 24 months or more.
Once you think you think you know everything and have it 100% in the bag, burn down your smoke house and quit because that is when mistakes will happen the fun and challenges end.
If you do not have a moisture activity tester ($700.00 plus) you can check the moisture content an easier way. Weigh a thin slice of your meat on a gram scale. (E-bay $10.00) Weigh a small zip lock bag. Put the slice in the bag, microwave for 15 seconds, remove the slice and look at the water in the bag. Weigh the bag or the slice and determine plus or minus what water dissipated. More than a drop or two in the corner of the bag show to much water, more drying needed. This is a simple easy free way to check water activity. I you leave the microwave on more than 15 seconds you will melt the fat and that is not what we are measuring. Also, check PH levels. To high or to low is no good. You want around 5.1 - 5.4. for salami.
In conclusion the pictures you show exhibit a nice product start. Again do not worry about the mold. It is normal and shows your on the right path. In a few weeks you will be proud or disappointed based on what do from here. Use your smarts and you will be making all kinds of cured meats. If I can help you advance I'll do it for anyone that have pride and ambition. I have around 10 million pounds of all kinds of cured meat results to my credit. Not all I would rate 5 star. Even us Artisans screw up.
Since I am married, I at least have someone to blame............ Peace to all that love what we do, Michael

Hell’ofa introduction Mike. Welcome to the forum.
How do you manage case hardening, or dry ring at such low humidity?

 

[indaswamp]

Thank you for posting your insight. It is very much appreciated. But I have a few questions.

55 to 69 degrees and your on the right path. I give you this from 45 years of flawless cured meat manufacturing in my USDA facility.

How are you controlling the growth of Staphylococcus aureus allowing the room temp. to rise to 69*F?

 

[indaswamp]

I have found the easy cheap and quality culture starter to use is simple encapsulated citric acid, (lemon juice dried)

Did I read that right? Are you saying there are live cultures on ECA? or are you using ECA to lower the pH of the product?

 

[mike k.]

Hey all I made some salami earlier this week and now I'm fermenting it at 72° with bactoform T-SPX... Starting to get little bit of white speck mold and the cases are starting to get a little sticky...I know I read it in other places but this is what I'm looking for right? just leave this alone? Going to move it over to my drying chamber tomorrow as it's been 3.5 days fermenting. I cured a lot of sausage but never fermented any salami....

Thanks in advance h a e f f n k

View attachment 482685View attachment 482684

rView attachment 482683

Sorry, I failed to mention the sticky cases. Often the higher temp curing and drying can cause gelatin or just plain moisture passing through the collagen allowing for residual proteins to collect on the outside of the skin. Will disappear with drying and or you can if you feel like it, use food grade alcohol or vinegar and a towel to wipe it off. Always be careful when touching your product not to transfer pathogens to the skins.
Consider latex non powdered gloves when handling your salami. Also use a clean cotton sheet to cover your salami to keep dust and foreign floating particles off your product. Helps even slow down drying as well. Crap in the air can cause issues you don't need. take care, Michael Kemsky

 

[SmokinEdge]

indaswamp
stay tuned.

I have around 10 million pounds of all kinds of cured meat results to my credit.

 

[indaswamp]

10 million pounds is a lot of meats.... lots of experience with that number.

 

[mike k.]

Thank you for posting your insight. It is very much appreciated. But I have a few questions.


How are you controlling the growth of Staphylococcus aureus allowing the room temp. to rise to 69*F?

I apologize for not being more detail in processing. I always use sodium nitrate 4oz. /100lb. ratio (not nitrite) as part of the pathogen prevention process in the initial mixing start phase. I also make 2500 lb minimal batches and lab test after the initial first phase of curing(10 days) for all common pathogens. I get a full panel done for $160.00 which is nothing in the realm of things considering the assurances. My family has been dry and cold curing since 1881. Our family did this in Russia until we fled in post WW1. 80 years in Ontario Canada, and then here in California to this current date.
Only once I tossed a full batch when black mold appeared on a pork Prosciutto loin after 75 days in. Could have maybe isolated the loin but I chose to dump the 2000 plus lbs. instead. Tested positive for Listeria.
Michael

 

[SmokinEdge]

10 million pounds is a lot of meats.... lots of experience with that number.

yes sir. I’m pulling up a chair.

 

[indaswamp]

Are you typically making fast fermented salamis, or do you make any Southern European Slow fermented products?

 

[mike k.]

What percentage of salt did you use in the mix?
cure#1 or cure#2???

I might also have mentioned if you do not care for the mold just dip your salami in a Potassium Sorbate solution. Doesn't have to be strong just 2 tbsp per gallon in a bin. Let it sit just 1 minute and then hang. Mold will not grow. Also can use celery seed powder same ratio to stop mold growth. Celery seed powder is natural Potassium Sorbate agent.

Are you typically making fast fermented salamis, or do you make any Southern European Slow fermented products?

My heritage is Croatian/Polish/Russian. My family specialized in smoked prosciutto, sausage, jerky and pepperoni and all other european style meats. Family was poor and had no refrigeration available to them. So everything had to be shelf stable. I really hate modified processing to speed up what slow does better. For eg. I make prosciutto out of pork loins. Remove all the fat and brine them (usually 500lb batches) for 90 to 120 days and then hang them for a year or more. 80% humidity and in a zero light 50 degree sealed air circulated room. 4 months at 80%, 2 months at 60% and 6 months at 40%. Then pulled and rolled in maple syrup, black pepper and sweet smoked paprika. Hung at 69 - 71 degrees until water activity measures .085%. Shrinkage is usually 70% to 77% by weight. Of coarse beef and poultry vary from that number. Often they mold out white/orange and are really picture perfect and delicious. Cost is around 5 bucks a lb. to make and retails out around $160.00 to 275.00 lb. Asians buy it all a year in advance. Mostly Japan. They just love it. Negative is time to make it. We call it 1000 day Prosciutto. In the factory here we make a average 3000 to 4000 lb of sausage a day. Most of it is fresh pork sausage. Made from pork shoulder. Very little goes through the dry cycle process. It's a matter of time and space. I have 50000 square feet of floor and it is crammed most of the time. Would love to go back to limited edition slow process quality meats but I just can't get there. Michael

 

[mike k.]

Did I read that right? Are you saying there are live cultures on ECA? or are you using ECA to lower the pH of the product?

I find that Encapsulated Citric Acid will give you that twang you want in smoked sausages and still allow for use of SN for risk management. So I miss wrote buy not being clear. If I am just dry cold curing I use CA not encapsulated. Safety is first and using standard levels of SN generally kills the live starters bacterias unless I use two part processing. Yes we do regulate PH with CA but not exclusively. We use lot of different natural ingredients mimic starters as flavor goes can regulate PH and manufacture timely for sales demands. It's unfortunate but we are all being pressured to replicate old processes in a modified way and still be eatable.
If a client wants a cultured flavor we use live starters and shelf it for a week or so in the cooler then add cures seasonings and process it thereafter. Apologize for non clarity, okay. Michael

 

[indaswamp]

Wow. What a wealth of knowledge. I can certainly appreciate the need to modify methods to meet consumer demand on a faster scheduling. That is a necessity with commercial production. The home producer does not have those time constraints and can afford to invest the time to make dry cured meats on a slower schedule like they do the old way.

80% humidity and in a zero light 50 degree sealed air circulated room. 4 months at 80%, 2 months at 60% and 6 months at 40%.

Very interesting you are able to pull the humidity so low to 40% for so long....

 

[indaswamp]

Safety is first and using standard levels of SN generally kills the live starters bacterias unless I use two part processing

I'm assuming SN is sodium nitrate? I realize that sodium nitrite and nitrate will inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum , Salmonella, and coliform bacteria. To my knowledge, it has no effect on the starter culture bacteria used to process dry cured meats nor staphylococcus aureus.

 

[TNJAKE]

 

[indaswamp]

M Mike ... OK, so you are doing professional testing for bad stuff. I guess that would be standard practice for a commercial producer. From my understanding, even with the sodium nitrites and nitrates, a 2LOG growth in Staph. Aureus is not uncommon. but it can not produce toxin once Aw 0.93 is achieved.
The home processor more than likely will not send product out for professional testing so with the exception of fermentation, where degree hour charts must be followed, the product must be kept under 60*F as added protection against rapid Staph. Aureus growth and toxin production.