A demonstration of creosote Part 1
- Thread starter crankybuzzard
- Start date
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Charlie. Did you do the scenarios of the vents being partially open at the same time or are these to come later. From the tests so far you can recommend that the top vent should not be fully closed - but you cannot extrapolate from this to say that it should be fully open - which was the inference of your original question.
ghoster
Smoke Blower
Point for the nice work Cranky. Just reading this reminded me of some of my early cooks and of that unpleasant taste it gives the meat. I think I should follow your lead with a shot.
meatstick
Smoke Blower
- Feb 10, 2014
- 103
- 14
Thanks for the post.. I think I am having the same problem. I have started using the amnps tube smoker..which produces a lot of smoke. I have just been laying it inside the chamber on the bottom. The last few times I have used it the food tasted ashy/bitter. I only have 1 vent on this and it is on top and wide open. I don't know how to fix this. After reading this and talking with others it seems like I really need to find some time and make the mailbox mod. for this. Any other suggestions? Thanks
It will be coming. The tests take several hours to complete, this one alone took over 6, so the next few I have planned will take 6-10 hours each test.
Part II will be LATE this week or early next.
I have the same problem with the Tube Smoker. It puts out too much smoke for a small smoker at low altitudes.
The Tube works better for guys at high altitudes, and they have trouble with the AMNPS (Tray Maze).
The AMNPS works perfectly for me, because I am at a low altitude. You should try an AMNPS.
Some guys say they can tone the Tube down by filling it halfway & shaking it on it's side, but I tried everything to no avail.
But I didn't try long, because the AMNPS works perfectly for me.
Bear
I have the same problem too when cold smoking. The smoke from tube smoker is just a little too "robust". Like you say, the AMNPS works well for me too. I find the tube is fine for my hot smoking though.
I tried half filling a tube too - I think it was Dave that suggested it. I think it did produce less smoke however it did not last very long.
meatstick
Smoke Blower
- Feb 10, 2014
- 103
- 14
I have a smoking mountain propane smoker. I have been using hickory pellets that I purchased from Cabelas. I was using apple but wanted to try something different.
meatstick
Smoke Blower
- Feb 10, 2014
- 103
- 14
When you mention AMNPS you mean the tray? I hate to throw money away. Does it produce a lot less smoke?
I have been cold smoking and getting to much smoke. Have you tried the mailbox mod yet? I have everything besides the piping. I'm just kicking around the idea where to cut the hole for the pipe on the smoker. Everything I have been reading seems like this would take care of it.
Sorry---Yes the AMNPS is the Maze Tray.
I never needed a Mailbox, except the one out by the road for my mail.
The AMNPS works perfectly in all of my MES units, all by itself. Just the right amount of smoke. IMHO
You should talk to Todd, at Amazing Smokers. He might even trade in your Tube for an AMNPS (plus any difference in cost).
Maybe yours would work like mine without the MB.
Bear
meatstick
Smoke Blower
- Feb 10, 2014
- 103
- 14
Thanks Wade... I guess my next question is would it make sense to just buy the AMNPS and don't worry about doing the mailbox mod or stick with the tube and do the mod? I don't get a chance to smoke a lot of meats but when I do I hate wasting the meat/time by getting that ashy/bitter flavor.
flipman77
Fire Starter
Awesome information supplied here. Qview was a great idea! Thank you !!
I told my wife I wanted to attempt this myself, she asked me why I needed a bottle of Rum to do it though...LOL
I told my wife I wanted to attempt this myself, she asked me why I needed a bottle of Rum to do it though...LOL
johnmeyer
Master of the Pit
I had a lot of problems with that ashy/bitter flavor, and that led me to starting this thread:
Thinking of selling my MES 30
Based on all the ideas and feedback I got in that thread, I kept the unit and continued to smoke. However, I was never quite satisfied with the result.
Then, just a few days ago I finally had a few hours to spare and built my own version of the mailbox mod. I documented that here:
Mailbox (Popcorn) Mod (with a small twist)
I've only done two smokes with it, but I can definitely say two things about it: a huge amount of creosote gets deposited in the external box, and therefore does not get into the MES; it completely eliminates any issue with keeping the AMNPS lit. I still need to smoke some almonds to know if I finally have killed the bitter, tongue-numbing quality that I often got. Almonds are my canary in the coal mine, and if they come out tasting like good clean smoke, then I know for sure that the mailbox mod is the reason.
I'm also looking forward to doing a cold smoke, something else that will tell me if the mod makes the difference. I did try cold-smoking some cheese with the AMNPS placed inside the MES, but did not like the results.
- Jan 6, 2011
- 26,255
- 4,705
First of all Thank you CB for posting this great comparison.
I asked my good friend CB if it was alright with him if I added to his post, he said sure it’s all about information.
My take on ventilation and creosote is this:
Since I am a stick burner my experience is limited to that.
I am, and always have been a firm believer that proper air flow is one of the key factors in great tasting BBQ,. That means Chimney vent “Wide Open” and burning “Good Seasoned Wood”.
I do not like heavy thick smoke, to me it leaves a bitter over smoked flavor. For me there is only one kind of good smoke and that’s “Thin Blue Smoke”. But if you like heavy smoke and that bitter taste that is your prerogative.
Like a good friend of mine told me, he grew up with his dad grilling and smoking and used a half a can of starter fluid and If he couldn’t taste that Lighter Fluid taste it wasn’t any good. You develop a certain taste early in life an tend to stick with it, remembering those childhood cookouts.
Below is a great article by my friend who has a PHD in Physics , a consultant at Texas A&M and is currently a Professor at Boston University. I have consulted him many times in the past. His findings are not merely his opinion he does the testing and research.
This is his writing Not Mine I asked his permission before I posted it, enjoy;
Flavor is a matter of taste and familiarity. If you grow up nibbling on Hersey's milk chocolate kisses, you may never enjoy the intense bitterness of a 70% cacao chocolate bar in adulthood. If you start out life eating fermented bean paste smeared on rice, that pungent flavor may forever denote comfort food, instead of rotting garbage. And, while one guest may insist a charred, bloody red steak is their idea of perfect meal, another would rather gargle day-old cigarette ash.
So the "right" level and type of smoke flavor is a matter of taste. Especially since many, if not most diners soak their ribs or pulled pork in a pungent-tangy-sweet-pepper sauce, demoting smoke flavor from a leading role to a mere bit player.
But I do believe that some smoke flavors are more equal than others. And this opinion is held by the majority of commercial smoke operators and many competition winners- the best smoke flavor is generated by hardwood embers with an average temperature between 650F and 750F.
More than a mere opinion, this position has its basis in the chemistry of wood combustion.
Hardwoods are built from hemicellulose, cellulose and lignin. As each wood component is consumed by fire (in one of four stages), various chemicals are liberated. These chemicals, in the form of vapors, fine particles and soot, flow onto the meat. Along the path from fire to food, they continue to react, condense and morph in composition.
Your nose and tongue are amazingly sensitive instruments. Some flavors can be detected below[sup]1[/sup] the part per BILLION level. So even tiny amounts of acrid elements can dominate the flavor and aroma profile.
Below 450F, combusting hemicellulose molecules are mostly acids and various gases. None are particularly desirable on food, but by 500F most of the hemicellulose has burned away or turned into charcoal. Cellulose releases water and acids and alcohols and tars and various combustible gases. Again, not too palatable, though much of the meat's mahogany color is a result of these chemical components. And, on a more positive note, cellulose is a sugar polymer, so it’s not surprising to discover brown caramel colors and flavors abound. By 600F the relative abundance of tarry cellulose compounds peaks and begins to decline.
Lignin is by far the more interesting ingredient from a culinary standpoint. A big messy molecule that gives wood its strength and rot resistance, bound inside the lignin molecule are the the precursors to smoke flavor, aroma and color. One is guaiacol, which is responsible for most of the smoky taste. Another is syringol, which your nose immediately identifies with fire and smoke. There are also clove and vanilla-like compounds. And literally hundreds of others. Some evaporate away in hours, some in days, others in weeks. One reason barbecue doesn't taste the same reheated.
Because the three wood components burn simultaneously, their compounds mutually interact. For example, creosote is the bitter progeny of this three way mutual relationship. A yellow, oily compound, creosote contains a mix of acids, tars and the smoky flavors from lignin. Creosote condenses at 250F and continues to flow until 150F. If you smoke above 250F, and the walls of your smoker and chimney are insulated, you won't observe creosote deposits like those in the photo..
Which is one reason people smoke fast and hot. But, there is always one part of your smoker below 250F- the meat, which never exceeds the boiling point of water, 212F.
So creosote will condense on the surface of cool meat, adding a smoky though bitter note. Creosote is also water resistant- this is why you may notice the first time you try to apply sauce over a dark-orange bark, the sauce does not stick, and may even ball up in places. But, if you spritz and keep the surface moist during smoking, and herbs roughen the bark's surface, creosoty deposits and flavors are minimized.
Lignin continues to decompose after 590F, but as the temperature rises above 800F, carcinogenic molecules like PAH arise. Many desirable flavor molecules are also destroyed by the heat of a more intense fire.
So the best smoke occurs in this "sweet zone" of 650F-750F, where acids, tars and bitter creosols are minimized, while smoky flavors are maximized.
As we discuss in the wood combustion tab, no fire burns at a single temperature, but varies from smoldering to intense to dying embers throughout the firebox. Since low temperature smoke is acrid, while the high temperature smoke is merely weak, best practice suggests building a vigorous fire which is above 650F everywhere, and thus produces the cleanest smoke. In the end, it is the skill of the pitmaster that determines the flavor profile from run to run.
It's easy to create impressive billowing clouds of white smoke- just burn moist wood at a low temperature with little oxygen. And the meat will taste smoky but acrid- I find this bitter taste lingers on the tongue for hours. But some people grew up with this flavor, and to them, it signifies home and good times.
Or, you can burn post oak in a roaring firebox of an offset smoker- the smoke will be sweet but very light in flavor, and might not be able to stand up to simple salt and pepper.
In addition to controlling the fire's oxygen level and how new fuel is added and mixed into the embers, the pitmaster controls the choice of wood. Certainly, it is common practice to avoid long cooks with sticky resinous woods like pine. Resin contains terpenes (which are the source of turpentine), and few guests associate oil paint with good barbecue. Cedar or redwoods, which are particularly mold and insect resistant, should also be avoided in a long cook. But in small doses, or when cold smoking, these woods strike a distinctive flavor note.
Every tree species contain slightly different types and amounts of lignin. Even within a species the flavor profile will depend on the micro-nutrients the tree absorbed- these minerals act like catalysts, tipping the combustion reaction in different directions. Not all oak is the same from year to year or place to place. And bark contains more nitrogen than heartwood, so it enhances the smoke ring.
Because barbecue is, by most definitions, is cooking low and slow and indirectly off the heat[sup]2[/sup], most smokers limit air flow to keep the temperature and fuel consumption down. But it also assures much of the fuel is smoldering rather than burning. Low oxygen levels leads to greater soot production and less nitric oxide production. So a smaller smoke ring.
Moisture levels controls how easily the smoke particles condense together, and thus how efficiently they stick and collide with the meat's surface. Seasoned wood, perhaps 15% moisture level, is often viewed as ideal. Green wood produces more smoke, but with acrid overtones. Moisture levels in the firebox (not the smoke chamber) also adjust the amount of nitric oxide produced vs other nitrogen compounds, and thus is a second contributor to the size and color of the smoke ring. More moisture, less nitric oxide.
A uniformly glowing, well-vented wood fire is the goal. Some smokers on the market inevitably choke air from the fire, or are so well insulated; they consume too little fuel to avoid acrid smoke. It still is smoke, and it is good. Just not best.
I asked my good friend CB if it was alright with him if I added to his post, he said sure it’s all about information.
My take on ventilation and creosote is this:
Since I am a stick burner my experience is limited to that.
I am, and always have been a firm believer that proper air flow is one of the key factors in great tasting BBQ,. That means Chimney vent “Wide Open” and burning “Good Seasoned Wood”.
I do not like heavy thick smoke, to me it leaves a bitter over smoked flavor. For me there is only one kind of good smoke and that’s “Thin Blue Smoke”. But if you like heavy smoke and that bitter taste that is your prerogative.
Like a good friend of mine told me, he grew up with his dad grilling and smoking and used a half a can of starter fluid and If he couldn’t taste that Lighter Fluid taste it wasn’t any good. You develop a certain taste early in life an tend to stick with it, remembering those childhood cookouts.
Below is a great article by my friend who has a PHD in Physics , a consultant at Texas A&M and is currently a Professor at Boston University. I have consulted him many times in the past. His findings are not merely his opinion he does the testing and research.
This is his writing Not Mine I asked his permission before I posted it, enjoy;
Flavor is a matter of taste and familiarity. If you grow up nibbling on Hersey's milk chocolate kisses, you may never enjoy the intense bitterness of a 70% cacao chocolate bar in adulthood. If you start out life eating fermented bean paste smeared on rice, that pungent flavor may forever denote comfort food, instead of rotting garbage. And, while one guest may insist a charred, bloody red steak is their idea of perfect meal, another would rather gargle day-old cigarette ash.
So the "right" level and type of smoke flavor is a matter of taste. Especially since many, if not most diners soak their ribs or pulled pork in a pungent-tangy-sweet-pepper sauce, demoting smoke flavor from a leading role to a mere bit player.
But I do believe that some smoke flavors are more equal than others. And this opinion is held by the majority of commercial smoke operators and many competition winners- the best smoke flavor is generated by hardwood embers with an average temperature between 650F and 750F.
More than a mere opinion, this position has its basis in the chemistry of wood combustion.
Hardwoods are built from hemicellulose, cellulose and lignin. As each wood component is consumed by fire (in one of four stages), various chemicals are liberated. These chemicals, in the form of vapors, fine particles and soot, flow onto the meat. Along the path from fire to food, they continue to react, condense and morph in composition.
Your nose and tongue are amazingly sensitive instruments. Some flavors can be detected below[sup]1[/sup] the part per BILLION level. So even tiny amounts of acrid elements can dominate the flavor and aroma profile.
Below 450F, combusting hemicellulose molecules are mostly acids and various gases. None are particularly desirable on food, but by 500F most of the hemicellulose has burned away or turned into charcoal. Cellulose releases water and acids and alcohols and tars and various combustible gases. Again, not too palatable, though much of the meat's mahogany color is a result of these chemical components. And, on a more positive note, cellulose is a sugar polymer, so it’s not surprising to discover brown caramel colors and flavors abound. By 600F the relative abundance of tarry cellulose compounds peaks and begins to decline.
Lignin is by far the more interesting ingredient from a culinary standpoint. A big messy molecule that gives wood its strength and rot resistance, bound inside the lignin molecule are the the precursors to smoke flavor, aroma and color. One is guaiacol, which is responsible for most of the smoky taste. Another is syringol, which your nose immediately identifies with fire and smoke. There are also clove and vanilla-like compounds. And literally hundreds of others. Some evaporate away in hours, some in days, others in weeks. One reason barbecue doesn't taste the same reheated.
Because the three wood components burn simultaneously, their compounds mutually interact. For example, creosote is the bitter progeny of this three way mutual relationship. A yellow, oily compound, creosote contains a mix of acids, tars and the smoky flavors from lignin. Creosote condenses at 250F and continues to flow until 150F. If you smoke above 250F, and the walls of your smoker and chimney are insulated, you won't observe creosote deposits like those in the photo..
Which is one reason people smoke fast and hot. But, there is always one part of your smoker below 250F- the meat, which never exceeds the boiling point of water, 212F.
So creosote will condense on the surface of cool meat, adding a smoky though bitter note. Creosote is also water resistant- this is why you may notice the first time you try to apply sauce over a dark-orange bark, the sauce does not stick, and may even ball up in places. But, if you spritz and keep the surface moist during smoking, and herbs roughen the bark's surface, creosoty deposits and flavors are minimized.
Lignin continues to decompose after 590F, but as the temperature rises above 800F, carcinogenic molecules like PAH arise. Many desirable flavor molecules are also destroyed by the heat of a more intense fire.
So the best smoke occurs in this "sweet zone" of 650F-750F, where acids, tars and bitter creosols are minimized, while smoky flavors are maximized.
As we discuss in the wood combustion tab, no fire burns at a single temperature, but varies from smoldering to intense to dying embers throughout the firebox. Since low temperature smoke is acrid, while the high temperature smoke is merely weak, best practice suggests building a vigorous fire which is above 650F everywhere, and thus produces the cleanest smoke. In the end, it is the skill of the pitmaster that determines the flavor profile from run to run.
It's easy to create impressive billowing clouds of white smoke- just burn moist wood at a low temperature with little oxygen. And the meat will taste smoky but acrid- I find this bitter taste lingers on the tongue for hours. But some people grew up with this flavor, and to them, it signifies home and good times.
Or, you can burn post oak in a roaring firebox of an offset smoker- the smoke will be sweet but very light in flavor, and might not be able to stand up to simple salt and pepper.
In addition to controlling the fire's oxygen level and how new fuel is added and mixed into the embers, the pitmaster controls the choice of wood. Certainly, it is common practice to avoid long cooks with sticky resinous woods like pine. Resin contains terpenes (which are the source of turpentine), and few guests associate oil paint with good barbecue. Cedar or redwoods, which are particularly mold and insect resistant, should also be avoided in a long cook. But in small doses, or when cold smoking, these woods strike a distinctive flavor note.
Every tree species contain slightly different types and amounts of lignin. Even within a species the flavor profile will depend on the micro-nutrients the tree absorbed- these minerals act like catalysts, tipping the combustion reaction in different directions. Not all oak is the same from year to year or place to place. And bark contains more nitrogen than heartwood, so it enhances the smoke ring.
Because barbecue is, by most definitions, is cooking low and slow and indirectly off the heat[sup]2[/sup], most smokers limit air flow to keep the temperature and fuel consumption down. But it also assures much of the fuel is smoldering rather than burning. Low oxygen levels leads to greater soot production and less nitric oxide production. So a smaller smoke ring.
Moisture levels controls how easily the smoke particles condense together, and thus how efficiently they stick and collide with the meat's surface. Seasoned wood, perhaps 15% moisture level, is often viewed as ideal. Green wood produces more smoke, but with acrid overtones. Moisture levels in the firebox (not the smoke chamber) also adjust the amount of nitric oxide produced vs other nitrogen compounds, and thus is a second contributor to the size and color of the smoke ring. More moisture, less nitric oxide.
A uniformly glowing, well-vented wood fire is the goal. Some smokers on the market inevitably choke air from the fire, or are so well insulated; they consume too little fuel to avoid acrid smoke. It still is smoke, and it is good. Just not best.
gr0uch0
Master of the Pit
Regardless of someone's comprehension of chemistry or molecular biology, this is a really good read and analysis, Gary: thanks to you and your friend for sharing. Point.
- Jan 6, 2011
- 26,255
- 4,705
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