# I will do science to it! Smoke + Sous Vide



## christhompson (Apr 7, 2010)

For the record I currently have no smoker of any kind. I mean to rectify that this year.

Last year I passed on a 7 foot tall "proofing cabinet" that had formerly done time at a KFC. Could have had it for $100, and passed because I suddenly found myself mid divorce and unclear on where I was going to be living. Regret that.

I've read all the PID threads and that's definitely where I'm headed. Cold smoke generator and a cabinet heated on PID control with convection/fan circulation. Several probes for monitoring various pieces of meat, etc.

What got me thinking about this again wasn't smoke, it was water.

http://seattlefoodgeek.com/2010/02/d...-for-about-75/

For those not familiar, Sous Vide is the technique of sealing something in a vacuum bag and cooking it in a water bath that maintains your target temperature. Want 150F on your steak? put it in 150F water and leave it, you end up with a cut of meat that can't overcook, and is done to the same level completely through the entire cut, not well done on the outside and rare on the inside.

It's common to finish Sous Vide meats by searing the outsides of them in a pan, or under a broiler, or even with a blowtorch. They can't brown and caramelize and form a crust in the bag.

That's what got me thinking. The method is supposedly a godsend for "difficult" cuts like brisket. What would happen if we combined the two methods, smoking and sous vide. It would be Überbrisket!

Anyone thought of this? Separating the cooking and the smoking would provide better control, theoretically, over the process, no?

I'm just not sure how to handle it. Smoke raw with cold smoke then sous vide? Cold Smoke a fully cooked brisket straight out of sous vide? Sear first? Sear last? Sear in the middle?

I've got a ton of gear to acquire to accomplish this, but it's likely to be a hell of a lot of fun testing :)

I know at least one of you has a sous vide setup, though I can't find it now. I'd love if someone could test this and tell me if I'm crazy.


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## smoke 2 geaux (Apr 7, 2010)

I have seen the device for doing this used on the food network, but I have never seen one in person.  I would think you would want to get some smoke on it first, then bag it and let it come to temp in the water bath.  I would be curious to see how the texture would come out, and there would be a complete lack of bark.  I might be tempted to sear it after it was done.  It would be an interesting experiment.


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## bayouchilehead (Apr 7, 2010)

Very interesting, I'll have to keep this in mind. I agree about the searing after, I think it would be good.


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## fencesitter (Apr 9, 2010)

I looked at the linked article- immersion heaters and a water pump- looks like he's trying to copy the commercial units. I'm not sure about the plastic tub though- how about a styrofoam cooler? Maybe that came up later- I didn't take the time to read all the comments.

Others have just used a rice cooker, though I guess that limits the size of what you're cooking. Do a search on "sous vide rice cooker" and you'll get a few useful links.

Me, before I put my PID controller on my smoker, I used it with a rice cooker to do some sous vide- an egg and some chicken. The problem with the egg was that the white was under cooked when the yolk was perfect (65C, I think). Next time I'd pop the egg in boiling water for a minute or so after the sous vide. I was being too safe with the chicken (after all, I was feeding my family) and held it at 160- a nice safe temp to kill all the nasties, but still made the chicken a bit tough. Next time I'd dwell at 150 or even longer at 140 to kill everything but leave the chicken more tender. I might even forgo the bag and make enough sauce to immerse the chicken pieces in the rice cooker.

Okay, have I proven that I know a thing or two about sous vide? Probably just enough to be dangerous.

Anyway, back to your idea. Because of the usual stall, you don't have to worry about over cooking the meat when you smoke it. I agree with the others- smoke it to say, 160 or whatever temp people usualy wrap in foil at. Then bag it and dump it in the sous vide water bath, bring it up to temp, pull it and sear it.

You'll get a little bit of crust on the meat with the initial smoke, though that'll soften up a lot in the sous vide, so the final sear to caramalize it helps. It'll also help get rid of the grease that gets rendered out.

That said, it seems a bit overboard (though, who's arguing with that? :)

Usually sous vide is to get something to the exact right temp without overshooting it and making it tough. Brisket isn't like that. You can take it to 180, 190, 200, even 205 and not have any problems with it. That's the thing about low and slow- brisket is initially tough, but the long slow cook makes it more tender. I don't think you need sous vide for that. Just like you don't need precise temp control for your crock pot cooking. I guess you could call SV another form of low and slow cooking since you're certainly going with a low cooking temp, but why use two low and slow cooking methods?

Another problem is figuring how long to let the meat dwell in the water bath- in traditional SV cooking, they just let the meat dwell long enough (and then some) for the heat to completely penetrate through. Given the stall of the fatty stuff we normally smoke, you're going to have to leave the meat in for a lot longer.

It would help to be able to put a thermometer in the meat, but that's a bit hard to do through a vacum bag. So, our usual smoking procedures here (cooking to a given internal temp) seems good enough. The optional foiling of the meat makes it pretty similar to the results of SV.

Finally, if you've been following the foiling thread (okay, I haven't really been), some people complain about foiling making the meat to mushy- you're going to have the same problem, possibly worse, with sous vide.

So, I don't want to completely discourage you from trying this, but don't invest too much in it until you figure if it's worth the extra effort. A PID controller is a useful enough purchase for regular SV, but maybe start with a small enough piece of meat to do in a rice cooker (or crock pot, roaster, etc.) instead of building your own immersion heater and water circulator. Well, I guess that goes for a lot of experiments- start small and scale up later. That way if there's a fatal flaw, you don't waste a big expensive piece of meat.

Aonther thing to try would be to do it in parts- first do a sous vide brisket without smoke. Sear part of it and compare. Next try a marinade with liquid smoke (not too much). Then try smoking (either cold or hot).

Good luck.


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## bbally (Apr 9, 2010)

The boil in the bag method has once again come into vogue.  It does some nice things, but IMO its best use is hospital and large institutions where large variety and quick single entree food service is the norm.

The sanitary concerns with the average person doing this with a vaccum sealer are enormous.


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## chefrob (Apr 9, 2010)

i couldn't agree more............

not only that but brisket yearns for smoke and heat for a long period of time. just my .02 .


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## christhompson (Apr 9, 2010)

There's a few bits to this thread.

@Fencesitter: You're right in that it may not gain you anything. What I neglected to mention is that I want a SV setup and a smoking setup for themselves. The combination of the two is merely geekery and something I'll eventually give a shot. 

As to the container, if you look at, say, this photo:








That's from the http://www.cookingissues.com/ the food geek hackery blog of the French Culinary Institute and is a lamb roast cooking in their immersion bath filled with oil. Sort of a geek confit, I guess.

The point is, their immersion bath sits on a standard polycarbonate commercial kitchen container. Since the heater on that unit is probably enough to boil the thing dry (with water) heat loss through the container simply means you're going to have a higher duty cycle and use more electricity.

That said, when I build I was considering rigging it up on one of those giant stainless lined camping coolers with the lid being able to be closed to retain heat.

@bbally and @chefrob: the safety aspect of this is really something to be aware of. Botulism grows in oxygen free environments so cooking without oxygen in a bag is a risk that has to be mitigated. Then putting the meat in a smoke environment, low O2, can also make the matter worse. There's no doubt it could be a perfect storm.

But to call this "boil in bag" is a bit off. The point here is not speedy cooking at 212F to quickly heat something through with low mess. Sous Vide is about holding an item in much lower temps, down to 120-130F and letting it come to heat slowly. Here's the best example of why it's relevant:







So not only is it about the "don't overshoot your temp" aspect, it's about the evenness of the internal temp.

Granted, all this is probably ridiculous overkill, but isn't overkill just one of the skills we bring to the table?


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## oillogger (Apr 9, 2010)

I bet a variable temperature hot plate and a large pot could produce similar results.  At least well enough for the first time to know if you wante dto invest more money and time into the concept.


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## chefrob (Apr 10, 2010)

while i won't speak for bob i'm sure he is familiar with it. as for me i have worked with it at one property that i was in charge of and the equipment was expensive and i don't think the health department (at least here locally) would give their stamp of approval on that "desktop" contraption pictured to feed the mases commercially. i do understand the will to push the envelope to find and explore new flavors, textures, and looks in the culinary world but it is my opinion (and mine only) that chefs today are too busy trying to come up with new ideas and techniques and forget the rewards of getting the basics right. try to go to a restaurant and get a perfect roasted chicken, or a great loaf of bread, or a simple but well done plate of pasta.............


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## kaiser (Apr 10, 2010)

I've never heard of sous vide - that's really cool


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## mballi3011 (Apr 10, 2010)

Now I have also seen these contraptions on the food network also but I'm with a couple of the guys here and I'm going with the smoker and the time with my briskets.


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## fencesitter (Apr 10, 2010)

I can certainly understand wanting both a sous vide cooker and a smoker. I still need to make another PID setup just for sous vide.

Regarding botulism- it looks like the usual food safety precautions advocated here on this board also apply to SV preparation- get the food up past 140F in four hours. But, if you smoke it to over 140 then SV it, I don't see where the risk is. Though, please, anyone else feel free to correct me.

Now that I think of it more, it seems that the sous vide part is much like the foil-towel-cooler part of smoking- dwelling at (or near) the target temperature for a while to keep part of the cooking process going to make the meat more tender. People have even put a lightbulb in the cooler to help keep the temps high for longer.

So, an alternative hybrid method would be to smoke until the *outside* of the meat is your target temperature (minus a little if you want), then pop it into the SV water bath, let it dwell a few (6?) hours (how long do people let the foil-towel-cooler meat sit?), then bring it out and sear it just before serving. Well, probably don't measure the surface temp of the meat, maybe 1/4 to 1/2" deep.


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## scubadoo97 (Apr 10, 2010)

With sous vide you need more tight control of temperature. It has to be accurate and consistent for extended periods of time. 

*ChrisThompson-*excellent post. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





That is the closest to a commercial immersion circulator that I've seen at about a 10th of the price. If you are real serious about sous vide also check out a very long thread at egullet  http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?...ues-equipment/ on the subject.  Nathan Myhrvold has contributed a lot of technical information to the thread. An informative article on Nathan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/science/17prof.html


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## bbally (Apr 10, 2010)

This was a fad trend in the Restaurant business about 6 years back when Thomas Keller was really messing with it at the French Laundry.

If memory serves me correct it followed the De-constructed menu craze.

At the hospital I do the ServeSafe classes for, they have smoked brisket in the sous-vide line up.  The brisket is done traditionally at a large commercial kitchen, it is mechanically processed, slices, au jus added, then low oxygen packaged.

Then they put it in the sous-vide immersion heater and bring it to temp.  No big deal, boil in the bag.

While the cooking of raw food in it offers some unique textures and food changes, (most notably the boiled egg) it is just not really all important on a true kitchen line.


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## craigkl (Dec 30, 2011)

I have been doing sous vide for about a year, occasional smoking with an ECB for the last 20, but I just got a Weber Smokey Mountain for Christmas and have been developing a big to-do list.  I had the same idea, googled "Sous Vide Smoking Meat", and here I am.  

I have never smoked a brisket so I will not try to comment on that.  However, I have done sous vide tri-tip and can testify that it is pink, tender, juicy, and delicious.  The explanation is that collagen and myosin, the proteins that make meat tough, begin to break down at around 130 degrees; the protein actin, which accounts for beef being brown and dried out, doesn't begin to break down until around twenty degrees higher (see http://coldgarden.com/Cold_Garden_Warm_Kitchen/Sous_Vide_Beef.html)  So if you just do your sous vide tri-tip at a temperature a little above 130, it will stay pink and juicy, but become as tender as a prime rib once the collagen and myosin break down.  

So my thought for a smoked sous vide tri-tip is this.  The tri-tip recipe on this site (http://www.smoking-meat.com/tri-tip-recipe.html) suggests smoking 2 to 3 hours at 225-250.  My guess -- remember I am just starting with the Weber -- is that this is going to produce a medium to medium-well done tri-tip with an internal temperature high enough to break down the actin.  I will try it and see.  If the results are too well-done, I will try smoking at a lower temperature, long enough to get a good smoke flavor, but I will monitor very carefully with my Oregon Scientific probe/remote thermometer.  When the internal temperature of the meat gets to the high 120s, I will pull the meat out, pop it into a Foodsaver bag (excellent for sous vide) and seal it, and drop it into my ready-and-waiting sous vide cooker.  24 hours later, the theory goes, I should have a tri-tip which is both perfectly cooked and perfectly smoked.  

Well, theory and practice sometimes diverge, so we shall see.  I will report back in a month or so.  For those with health worries, see http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html  (an excellent discussion of the whole subject.)  This fellow is a scientist who is also a published and acknowledged expert on sous vide, and he's got an extensive explanation of just how long you have to cook something sous vide in order to make sure that the dangerous bacteria are killed.


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## craigkl (Dec 30, 2011)

Oillogger,

You are correct.  You don't even need variable temperature, you just need a PID controller which will shut the hot plate on and off to maintain the desired temperature.  I use a large heavy-duty pot with a $20 Rival hotplate and have had excellent results.  The temperature will fluctuate 4 or 5 degrees when you first put a cold piece of meat in, but it gradually narrows down to a range of just 1 or two degrees.


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## zackly (Mar 8, 2012)

Craihkl,

Did you do any smoked & sous vide experiments?

I've done pulled pork this way. I put 2-3 hours of hot smoke on the butt then vacuum sealed it & sous vide cooked it for 24 hours. Turned out great!

I am planning to do a brisket soon.


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## craigkl (Mar 9, 2012)

Hi Zackly,

This is a method I plan to experiment further with, however my one project so far was mostly successful.  Smoked a tri-tip for appx about 2 hours, until the internal temperature was 131, the temperature I am used to using for sous-viding rare roast beef.  Then, I sealed it in a Foodsaver bag and put it in the sous vide bath for the next 24 hours.  The result was a nice pink, as tender as a prime rib.  The smoke flavor was just right for eating straight slices of meat, but a little on the mild side (IMHO) for use in sandwiches, etc. where there are other flavors to balance with

Three adjustments I will make next time:

1) Use a completely dry rub.  I had followed Jeff's suggestion of using mustard to make the rub stick to the meat, but the surface of the meat was still somewhat wet when the meat temperature got to 131, so that liquid got sucked into the Foodsaver as I sealed the sous vide bag, resulting in a poor seal.  I had to put the Foodsaver bag into a regular plastic bag after a few hours when I noticed some seepage (fortunately not much.)

I suppose an injected marinade might be a feasible alternative to a flavor on the surface, but I have not experimented as much with this technique.

2) I think I will put the meat in the freezer for an hour or two before smoking, so that it will take longer to come up to temperature and hopefully give me a little stronger smoke flavor.

3) I am also going to make my target temperature a little higher, say 137.  My understanding is that collagen, the protein that makes meat tough, starts breaking down around 129, but actin, the protein that makes the meat turn brown and stringy, really doesn't kick in for (I think) about another 20 degrees.  

craigkl

PS.  It has been about 2 months since I visited this forum and I may not have read all the previous posts thoroughly, but to those who think it is "overkill", my reply would be that sous vide is really only a small extra amount of trouble.  You do not have to sit there and tend the pot for 24 hours, as if you were smoking.  And the upside is gorgeous, pink, completely tender, smoked meat.  My suggestion would be that if you are smoking something else, pick up a tri-tip _too_, put it on with your other meat for two or three hours, then take it out of the smoker and start the sous vide while the rest of the meat continues to smoke.  Then you'll have the sous vide tri-tip for the next day, or if you want to chill or freeze it while still in the bag, for later on.  Two birds with one stone!


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## ahakohda (Mar 9, 2012)

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=13&zenid=6641dd4b0cf22d16d3321fb520669670


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## daveomak (Mar 9, 2012)

craigkl said:


> Hi Zackly,
> 
> This is a method I plan to experiment further with, however my one project so far was mostly successful.  Smoked a tri-tip for appx about 2 hours, until the internal temperature was 131, the temperature I am used to using for sous-viding rare roast beef.  Then, I sealed it in a Foodsaver bag and put it in the sous vide bath for the next 24 hours.  The result was a nice pink, as tender as a prime rib.  The smoke flavor was just right for eating straight slices of meat, but a little on the mild side (IMHO) for use in sandwiches, etc. where there are other flavors to balance with
> 
> ...


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 10, 2012)

This Sous-Vide is very useful but has some limitation...*DO NOT INJECT ANYTHING YOU PLAN TO SOUS-VIDE*...Once pre-cooked/smoked Sous-vide is great at keeping the meat at a set point temp and continueing to tenderize it. If using SV from Raw it is recommended that you keep the meat thickness to 2 1/2 inches or less. Lastly, SV must be done with CIRCULATION!!!! Throwing a chunk of Bagged Meat in a Crock Pot of 130*F water will not get you anything but Sick, if any mishandling or contamination took place...Good luck...JJ


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## craigkl (Mar 10, 2012)

Dave and JJ,

I appreciate the input, but I question it.  My understanding, based on the exhaustive discussion to be found in   http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]  (see Part I, section 1 for the non-technical summary, the appendix if you want the math) is that the widely-cited 140 degree figure is more than necessary, because it doesn't take into consideration the length of time that meat will be in the sous vide bath.  Yes, bacteria are killed more slowly at lower temperatures, but with sous vide over a 24-hour period such as I am suggesting, you will have more than plenty of time to reduce the amount of bacteria by a factor of one million, the recommended ratio.  140 will guarantee a much _quicker _bacteria kill, and is a good idea if you are using a "quick" method like frying or searing in a hot oven, but it is more than is necessary for sous vide.[/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now, of course I would be interested if you have any information that contradicts Baldwin (who seems pretty solid on the science.)  But non-scientifically, I can report that I have cooked (non-smoked) tri-tips several times at 131 for 24 hours, and am still kicking.  So, I have not just contemplated my ideas; I have executed them.  I would worry a bit about trying to sous vide a big chunk of meat like a pork shoulder or prime rib, because as Baldwin indicates, the bacteria kill will depend on the thickness of the cut.  But tri-tips, at least the ones I buy, are typically less than two inches thick -- definitely not a problem by his numbers.  Also, while I don't have an immersion circulator, I don't think it stands to reason that the temperature throughout an entire tri-tip will not come to the same level over 24 hours, provided you remove all air from the sous vide bag and make sure that the bag stays completely submerged, so that you are cooking completely by conduction.  I have checked the thickest areas of my tri-tips with a Thermapen when taking them out of the bath, and have found the center to be at exactly the same temperature as the surrounding water.  I can see the need for circulation in a big, uncovered tank, but in a covered, heavy metal pot whose temperature is regulated by a PID controller I think you get essentially complete heat equalization within a couple hours.[/font]

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Please, though, if you have any data that really contradicts any of this, I would love to hear it.[/color]

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]craigkl[/color]


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2012)

Since this topic is somewhat active, I read Douglas Baldwins "brief", that was highlighted in the above post..  I am not for or against Sous-vide... I know it is popular in high end restaurants and on Iron Chef.... Looks very interesting and obviously makes some gastronomical delights....  Everyone on this forum is free to experiment making great food.... That is what we do here....   Carry on..... Dave

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/info.html......Information on Douglas Baldwin and his credential.. Read all the sections to become fully educated about the processes....

Disclaimer about his book, he wrtote, at the end of the Sous-Vide section.....

If you have any specific update requests, please email me. In my next updates I plan to: update the egg section to include my table for core temperatures between 60° and 67°C in a 75°C water bath and the results of Vega and Mercadé-Priet (2011); add a chapter on cooking fruits and vegetables; and revise the basic techniques chapter to improve readability and add some new results. I will try and make these changes in the next few months, but I do applied math research 60+ hr/wk and so have very little time available to work on this guide.

*Disclaimer:* All of the information contained in this guide is intended for educational purposes only. Douglas Baldwin makes no guarantees, warranties or representations, implied or express, as to the appropriateness, timeliness, accuracy, completeness, and/or usefulness of any of the information in this guide. There may be mistakes in the information presented. Douglas Baldwin assumes no risk or obligation for your use of this guide.

Feel free to read the info about the book and make your own descision as to whether or not you want to continue with Sous-Vide.....

Again, I think Sous-Vide is pretty neat.... Enjoy your adventures in Gastronomical delights... And keep it safe....   Dave


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 11, 2012)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> This Sous-Vide is very useful but has some limitation...*DO NOT INJECT ANYTHING YOU PLAN TO SOUS-VIDE*...Once pre-cooked/smoked Sous-vide is great at keeping the meat at a set point temp and continuing to tenderize it. If using SV from Raw it is recommended that you keep the meat thickness to 2 1/2 inches or less. Lastly, SV must be done with CIRCULATION!!!! Throwing a chunk of Bagged Meat in a Crock Pot of 130*F water will not get you anything but Sick, if any mishandling or contamination took place...Good luck...JJ


Craig you suggest I read Baldwin...I have Taught Sous-Vide for several years using the information taken from Baldwin...Nothing in my statement contradicts Baldwin it Reiterates it!...Additionally I supported and agree with your use of pre-Smoking then using Sous-Vide to tenderize...I simply added the main Safety issues that need to be addressed with SV. Don't Inject...Limit Meat thickness to 2 1/2 inches or less and Circulation is the key to Proper SV cooking...I have included Baldwins words below...Do I really need to change, "Must be done with Circulation" to "highly recommend" as Baldwin uses? Additionally Baldwin discusses that Bacteria which are of primary concern but does not go into detail on Heat Stable Toxin generating Bacteria which can be a Huge thread with Injected Meat...

Lastly my biggest problem with this statement of yours..."  But non-scientifically, I can report that I have cooked (non-smoked) tri-tips several times at 131 for 24 hours, and am still kicking. So, I have not just contemplated my ideas; I have executed them." and I have Defrosted meat on the counter for 12 hours, and never made anyone sick!...Does that mean what you and I have done without consequence is a good idea?  ...JJ

"Most home cooks use a commercial rice cooker, a steam table or counter-top food warmer, a slow cooker or crock-pot, or a counter-top roaster. The most important consideration when purchasing such a device is that it must use a manual switch (which will not be reset when the power is turned on and off by the temperature controller). Many people prefer a rice cooker or steam table because they react faster than slow cookers and roasters (and so have less temperature over shoot). Moreover, because they are heated from below, rice cookers and steam tables often have sufficient convection currents to keep the water temperature spatially uniform; uncirculated slow cookers and roasters can have cold spots of as much as 10–20°F (5–10°C)!* Regardless of the heating device, I highly recommended that a circulator be used in conjunction with the temperature controller. The most popular options for circulating the water is an aquarium air bubbler – aquarium pumps which must be submerged in the water are not designed to operate at sous vide temperatures and quickly fail. "*


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## sprky (Mar 12, 2012)

This is all very interesting stuff. I had never herd of Sous-Vide before. I guess in a way I have used it before with out knowing it, since I have reheated smoked meats in a vac sealed bag in a pot of water. Learn something new around here all the time.


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## craigkl (Mar 12, 2012)

I think we are converging on agreement here.  As a point of reference, let me quote Baldwin directly from http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html:

While there are many ways to kill food pathogens, cooking is the easiest. Every food pathogen has a temperature that it can’t grow above and a temperature it can’t grow below. They start to die above the temperature that they stop growing at and the higher above this temperature you go, the faster they die. Most food pathogens grow fastest a few degrees below the temperature that they start to die. Most food pathogens stop growing by 122°F (50°C), but the common food pathogen _Clostridium perfringens_  can grow at up to 126.1°F (52.3°C). So in sous vide cooking, you usually cook at 130°F (54.4°C) or higher. (You could cook your food at slightly lower temperatures, but it would take you a lot longer to kill the food pathogens.)

While there are a lot of different food pathogens that can make you sick, you only need to worry about killing the toughest and most dangerous. The three food pathogens you should worry about when cooking sous vide are the _Salmonella_  species, _Listeria monocytogenes_, and the pathogenic strains of _Escherichia coli_. _Listeria_  is the hardest to kill but it takes fewer _Salmonella_or _E. coli_  bacteria to make you sick. Since you don’t know how many pathogens are in your food, most experts recommend that you cook your food to reduce: _Listeria_  by at least a million to one; _Salmonella_  by ten million to one; and _E. coli_  by a hundred thousand to one. You can easily do this when you cook sous vide: you just keep your food in a 130°F (54.4°C) or hotter water bath until enough bacteria have been killed.

How long does it take for you to reduce, say, _Listeria_  by a million to one? Your water bath temperature is very important: when cooking beef, it’ll take you four times longer at 130°F (54.4°C) as it does at 140°F (60°C). What you are cooking is also important: at 140°F (60°C), it’ll take you about 60% longer for chicken as it does for beef. Other things, like salt and fat content, also affect how long it takes; but these difference are small compared with temperature and species.

Baldwin then goes on to provide tables, based on type of meat, thickness of meat, and temperature, which show the amount of time that's necessary to kill bacteria.  For instance, for a piece of beef or pork 30 millimeters (about 2 inches) thick, his table indicates that 3 hours at 131 would be sufficient to attain that ten-million-to-one kill ratio that is necessary for food safety.

So assuming I agree with JJ, here's the way I'd put it: with sous vide, where you are cooking relatively thin (2 inch or less) pieces of meat by conduction from the surrounding water, you are going to have much more efficient heat transfer than you do with air in an oven (or smoker) surrounding a big, irregularly shaped piece of meat. If Baldwin is correct, three hours of sous vide at 131 should do it for a two-inch-thick tri-tip.  Of course, to achieve sous vide's signature effect of completely breaking down the collagen and tenderizing a relatively tough cut of beef like tri-tip or a chuck roast while still keeping it rare, you normally want to go *much *longer than that, say 24 hours, so at that point you are *way*  beyond the margin of error for killing dangerous bacteria. 

*But:* that is very different from cooking a big, irregularly-shaped piece of meat in a smoker.  It's a lot thicker than 2 inches, and in a smoker, you are cooking by convection, not conduction.  (You can stick your hand in a hot oven for a couple seconds without burning it by convection, but you can't put your hand in the stew in that oven for a couple seconds without experiencing severe burns by conduction.) So given the inefficiency of convection cooking, applied to a large chunk of meat, 140 makes total sense.  Your meat thermometer may not be touching the very coolest spot, and you want to make sure that every bit of that roast has gotten to Baldwin's safe point and stayed there long enough to kill the bacteria.

There is another point to be gleaned from Dave's example from Kerri Harris and JJ's comment about leaving meat sitting on the counter for twelve hours.  If your meat has an abnormally high amount of bacteria in it to begin with, of course it is going to take longer to get to a point of safety even with a ten-million-to-one kill ratio, and at some point you should probably throw the meat out.  But for meat taken straight from a 40 degree refrigerator and heated at the temperature and time Baldwin specifies, there shouldn't be a problem.  Assuming Baldwin's numbers are correct, Kerri Harris's danger range of 50 to 130 is a little too high on the high end; it should be more like 126.2, plus a little margin for error.  But I'm not going to eat a piece of meat that has been held at 95 for 12 hours in the first place, and I'm going to stick to Baldwin's 131 as a minimum for cooking beef or pork sous vide.

==================

I will have more comments to offer about the circulation issue after I do my next round of sous vide.  Per Baldwin, I _believe_ that convection currents in a _covered, _highly conductive pot like a All-Clad or Le Creuset dutch oven (my technique, using a hot plate) are sufficient to guarantee an even temperature throughout the whole sous vide bath, even without a circulator.  But I'm not going to claim to _know_  until I run some experiments.  So far, I have simply noted that the temperature of my meat as measured by my Thermapen matched the temperature registered by the PID controller when I took it out of the sous vide bath.  

Meanwhile, back to the issue that got this all started, I am looking forward to a pink, tender, perfectly-smoked tri-tip real soon.

craigkl


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## pops6927 (Mar 12, 2012)

http://www.sousvidesupreme.com/default.aspx?&gclid=CMX90r6p4q4CFahgTAodMEmeIQ

http://www.chefscatalog.com/product...de=CW3GG3020&gclid=CJCCgYuq4q4CFQpjTAodqCjxHQ

http://www.cookingsousvide.com/info/sous-vide-equipment

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/polyscience-professional-sous-vide-thermal-circulator/

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/smoking-gun/?catalogId=99&cm_src=AutoRel    check out The Smoking Gun[emoji]174[/emoji]....

http://seattlefoodgeek.com/2010/02/diy-sous-vide-heating-immersion-circulator-for-about-75/   This is interesting...

http://nomnompaleo.com/post/2760673624/hacking-your-own-sous-vide-machine   several links to several things here!

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...f.,cf.osb&fp=7b2d5c6f479cf85&biw=1239&bih=614     Several Videos!

http://stellaculinary.com/forum/gen...d-discussions/cheapest-sous-vide-machine-ever   several things!

This is just from the first 2 pages of Google Search!


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## shoneyboy (Mar 12, 2012)




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## peebee (Mar 21, 2012)

Not to stir the pot even more, but I have quite a bit of experience with sous-vide, both with custom-built immersion circulators, and commercial setups.  At home, I have a sous-vide supreme, and it gets quite a bit of use. 

A chuck roast, seasoned, seared, then vacuum sealed and cooked at 135F for 72 hours absolutely transforms a humble cut of tough, but extremely flavorful meat into a perfectly medium steak, with a texture that's nothing short of amazing.  It has the texture of a thick, medium / medium rare ribeye, and all the intense flavor you expect from a chuck roast.







72 Hour Sous-Vide Chuck Roast Over A Roast Turnip Puree With Arugula

Short ribs are another thing that can be cooked the same way, and come out fantastic.

At some point, I plan to smoke some brisket for a few hours, then vacuum seal it and finish it off sous-vide.  Medium-rare smoked brisket, juicier and more tender than anything a smoker could put out alone...  It'll be an interesting experiment, although I'm not sure how well the smoke will penetrate.  Only one way to find out...


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 22, 2012)

Sous-Vide is a great and useful tool...Done Properly...As you state you have and use the proper equipment designed for the job. It is just important that people understand, injecting should not be done and you can't simply throw a hunk of meat in a Ziplock bag then in a Crock Pot and be guaranteed a safe result...JJ


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## peebee (Mar 22, 2012)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Sous-Vide is a great and useful tool...Done Properly...As you state you have and use the proper equipment designed for the job. It is just important that people understand, injecting should not be done and you can't simply throw a hunk of meat in a Ziplock bag then in a Crock Pot and be guaranteed a safe result...JJ


Injecting is a sort-of bad idea.  Say you inject a piece of ribeye, and you want it to be cooked rare, you're creating a pathogen-rich environment. Say you want that same piece of injected beef cooked to medium-rare?  Once the steak is fully up to temperature, holding it at mere 130F for 112 minutes will give you a 5 log reduction in foodborne pathogens...perfectly safe to eat, no matter how many "surface baddies" you shove down into the tendrils of the meat.  I will concede, however, that you ABSOLUTELY must know the thickness of your meat, and at what point it will be fully up to temperature.  Without that information, you're setting yourself up for failure, and your lower GI up for a rough couple of days.

Would I do it?  No, because the ends don't justify the means.  I'm not afraid that I will get sick, though.

On the Ziploc bag + Crock Pot front, we're mostly in agreement.  You have to be able to trust your equipment if you're going to walk away for any length of time.  I trust that people can make a great sous-vide setup with a Crock Pot and a PID controller, but I'd be watching it like a hawk for the first few cooks, just as I will with my new smoker.  I'm uncertain about the safety of using Ziploc bags at relatively high temperatures, and I can't say I trust their seal, but I'd wager there isn't poly breakdown at 135F.

Nothing is impossible.  I never rule anything out.  I'd never say, "You can't do X with equipment Y."

I am, however, an advocate of having the right tools for the job, and a Crock Pot and a Ziploc bag are the sous-vide equivalent of using a pair of Vise Grips to remove lug nuts.  It might get you to the finish line, but it's not the route I'd recommend.


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## zackly (Mar 22, 2012)

That is beautiful!

I too made a chuck pot roast (cooked M-Wed) sous vide but mine came out less rare even though I cooked it only 48 hours @ 131F. It tasted great but I like the looks of yours better.

When I removed the beef I put in a 5# octopus for 4 hours @ 180F last night. It's sitting in my fridge in olive oil & garlic. I'm going to grill it tomorrow for the boys @ work.

Close to 80 degrees near NYC today.

Grillin & chillin tonight followed by a fat cigar under the stars.

Life is good!


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## craigkl (Mar 22, 2012)

On the Ziploc bag + Crock Pot front, we're mostly in agreement.  You have to be able to trust your equipment if you're going to walk away for any length of time.  I trust that people can make a great sous-vide setup with a Crock Pot and a PID controller, but I'd be watching it like a hawk for the first few cooks, just as I will with my new smoker.  I'm uncertain about the safety of using Ziploc bags at relatively high temperatures, and I can't say I trust their seal, but I'd wager there isn't poly breakdown at 135F.

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]-------------------------[/color]

My understanding is that Ziploc bags will work OK for meat in the 130-140 range, but not for vegetables where you are breaking down the pectin around 185.  Foodsaver bags are fine for this purpose, however, and you also get a better vacuum than you ever will trying to suck the air our of a Ziploc with a straw.  Hence, better heat conduction.

Agree also on being able to trust your equipment, but I'd distinguish between a CrockPot/PID setup, and something like an All-Clad or Le Creuset dutch oven on a hot plate with a PID controller.  Pots like those are _designed _to transfer heat up the sides of the pot, and I believe you have a heavier-duty heating element in the hot plate.  What I am not completely sure about is the circulation, although sticking my Thermapen in different areas of the pot, I have never noticed any hot or cold zones.  Water transfers heat pretty efficiently.  Next experiment (soon) I plan to eyedrop some food coloring into the water and see how quickly convection currents disperse it.  My guess is, pretty rapidly, but this is why you run experiments.  More to follow.

-----------------------

I am, however, an advocate of having the right tools for the job, and a Crock Pot and a Ziploc bag are the sous-vide equivalent of using a pair of Vise Grips to remove lug nuts.  It might get you to the finish line, but it's not the route I'd recommend.

Agree again!  Except, Vise Grips and a lug wrench each only cost a few dollars, whereas a Sous Vide Supreme costs a _lot _more than a PID controller and a pot you already own.  The SV Supreme also takes up a lot of room in a small kitchen.  But in a financially and spatially ideal world, absolutely it's the better choice.


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## daveomak (Mar 23, 2012)

_Pee Bee_

_Once the steak is fully up to temperature, holding it at mere 130F for 112 minutes will give you a 5 log reduction in food borne pathogens...perfectly safe to eat, no matter how many "surface baddies" you shove down into the tendrils of the meat._

Pee Bee, morning.....  I'm trying to understand the above statement....  I know there are temp/time formulas for pasteurization of milk as an example.....  I had assumed, those time/temp tables were for a fairly clean, not deliberately injected with food borne pathogens, to insure a safe product....   Are you saying "one can deliberately inject food borne pathogens into a hunk of meat" and have a perfectly safe product to eat (once it reaches the proper internal temp) if held at 130*F for 112 minutes ????

If that is true, then could I find a road kill deer and sous-vide the critter, using the above criteria, and have perfectly safe venison to eat......   I'm having trouble wrapping this brain around "food borne pathogens" being safe to eat given enough time at 130*F .....   Also, please cite the "food agency" and maybe a publication or two so I can read up on it..... 

Not saying you are in error in you presentation, just saying I would like to verify it for my own curiosity...    Thanks, Dave...


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## peebee (Mar 23, 2012)

DaveOmak said:


> _Pee Bee_
> 
> _Once the steak is fully up to temperature, holding it at mere 130F for 112 minutes will give you a 5 log reduction in food borne pathogens...perfectly safe to eat, no matter how many "surface baddies" you shove down into the tendrils of the meat._
> 
> ...


Dave,

I assure you, I'm not trying to sound snarky, just as you weren't, but pasteurization isn't really breaking new ground.  The most common foodborne pathogens cannot live at 130F.  Holding meat at that temperature kills the pathogens, so you would not be ingesting live strains.

Here's an excerpt from a magazine that gives you some background on holding temperatures versus time for common foodborne pathogens.

http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/article.asp?id=1699&sub=sub1

"Most common foodborne pathogens" assumes that your meat has been kept at the proper temperature.  Clostridium botulinum is not considered "common", and can survive at 130F, but wouldn't be a concern if the meat was properly handled and refrigerated.  Grabbing a chunk of roadkill and holding it at 130F isn't going to protect you from botulism (unless you live in the great white north, and the roadkill has been frozen the whole time).  You suffer the same risks of botulism by smoking meat as you do cooking it via immersion circulator / sous-vide.


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## daveomak (Mar 23, 2012)

PeeBee, Thank you very much for the article.... It sheds light on areas of temp / time vs pathogens that were "obscure" to say the least....  If I knew what pathogen, bacteria, parasite etc that was the "culprit" I could adjust the times and temps accordingly....   Me, being and idiot in most respects, need an all inclusive guideline to protect those I feed... (family, friends and last but not least your humble gourmand) ....  At least I can now figure out some   time / temp / pH  guidelines that will work in a given recipe ....  

I have looked at Sous-Vide with interest in the past.... Knowing enough that food borne illness could multiply to deadly levels in time and at certain temps, have halted my pursuits in that arena....  The Web, with all its articles that are incorrect, by authors that are lacking in skills associated with the topics they write, and "heresay" articles by the Joe-Blow authors,  dealing with "life threatening" hobbies was not for me..... 

At least at this forum, we have a very knowledgeable group of people that regularly "huddle" to consensus answer questions regarding food safety if the question is an outlier.... we regularly rely on the gov't agencies for "text book" questions....   Our aim is to provide a direction, with safety in mind, to our members and guests for wholesome food production...

I would encourage anyone interested in Sous - Vide to gain some level of expertise in understanding food borne illness and it's destruction before "leaping into the warm water" so to speak....

PeeBee, Thanks again for the information....   If you find any other articles that are on this topic.... please include them here for all to read......  Dave


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 23, 2012)

Great article. It demonstrates why people get away with doing Potentially Dangerous things like defrosting on the counter and warming 8Lb Butts to room temp before going in the smoker. But since there are no absolutes and thing do go unexpectedly wrong safe sanitation and cooking practices should still be followed. Thanks for the info...JJ


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## peebee (Apr 2, 2012)

In Modernist Cuisine, there's a chapter dedicated to this, as well.   The first paragraph of "Common Misconceptions" very succinctly describes the point I try to make when I try to discuss the subject...

"Once upon a time, some well-meaning officials decided that food safety recommendations should include only temperatures instead of time-and temperature combinations. This decision, perhaps the worst oversimplification in all of food safety, has led to years of confusion and mountains of ruined food."

Further along in on the page:

"Once you eliminate time from the standards, the strong tendency is to choose a temperature so hot that it can produce the required D level of pathogen reduction nearly instantaneously. This impractically high temperature invariably leads to overcooked meat and vegetables while preventing very few cases of foodborne infection in addition to those that would be prevented by less extreme heat. After all, once a pathogen is dead, heating it further doesn't make it any deader."

It's a complicated subject, and I'm not going to quote the entire chapter of the book, but if you're willing to research the topic, you'll be able to make juicier, tastier food by cooking to a lower internal temperature, and it will be just as safe of pathogens as if you were to incinerate it per the oversimplified USDA and FDA guidelines.  

I'll try to take some pictures of the graphs / charts in there, as I'd think excerpts should be allowable under fair use.  If you're into sous-vide, gastronomy, or are at all interested in the hows and whys of food texture, you owe it to yourself to invest in the books.  Or at the very least, befriend someone who's dropped the coin on them...


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## meaturmaker (Apr 15, 2012)

Glad to see the discussion since I'm a big sous vide fan as well as a fellow smoker.  I built my own and then bought a Sous Vide Supreme.  There's nothing like taking rib eyes out of the freezer, throwing them in the sous vide at 131 degrees for about an hour, and then searing them on a hot grill.  I have done many thick (greater than 3") roasts and I'll never do them any other way because  when they're done correctly, they are the perfect temperature and extremely tender.  I just did a sirloin tip roast last this weekend and made fantastic French dip sandwiches. 

Regarding Ziploc bags, you might want to take a look at Doug Baldwin's videos - he actually demonstrates using both Ziploc and Foodsaver bags when cooking chicken breasts.  Personally, I use the Foodsaver type but if Doug is ok with Ziploc bags, they must be ok. 

Great discussion guys!


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## chef jimmyj (May 5, 2012)

There is a lot of discussion on Pathogens, how common or rare they are and whether or not they are killed at 130*F. This is all good but we must consider that some of the most common Bacteria, given time, will produce Heat Stable Toxins or Spores. Heat stable meaning, no matter how hot or how long you heat them they will not degrade and will make you sick and spores can become active and multiply and/or produce toxin. Here is a great Chart laying out the Name of the bacteria and information related to our discussion...JJ

[size=-1][size=-1]Bacteria
Responsible[/size][/size][size=-1]Description[/size][size=-1]Habitat[/size][size=-1]Types of
Foods[/size][size=-1]Symptoms[/size][size=-1]Cause[/size][size=-1]Temperture
Sensitivity[/size][size=-1]Staphylococcus aureus[/size][size=-1]Produces a heat-stable toxin[/size][size=-1]Nose and throat of 30 to 50 percent of healthy population; also skin and superficial wounds.[/size][size=-1]Meat and seafood salads, sandwich spreads and high salt foods.[/size][size=-1]Nausea, vomiting and diarrhea within 4 to 6 hours. No fever.[/size][size=-1]Poor personal hygiene and subsequent temperature abuse.[/size][size=-1]No growth below 40[sup]o[/sup] F. Bacteria are destroyed by normal cooking but toxin is heat-stable.[/size][size=-1]Salmonella[/size][size=-1]Produces an intestinal infection[/size][size=-1]Intestinal tracts of animals and man[/size][size=-1]High protein foods - meat; poultry, fish and eggs.[/size][size=-1]Diarrhea nausea, chills, vomiting and fever within 12 to 24 hours.[/size][size=-1]contamination of ready-to-eat foods, insufficient cooking and recontamination of cooked foods.[/size][size=-1]No growth below 40[sup]o[/sup] F. Bacteria are destroyed by normal cooking.[/size][size=-1]Clostridium perfringens[/size][size=-1]Produces a spore and prefers low oxygen atmosphere. Live cells must be ingested.[/size][size=-1]dust, soil and gastrointestinal tracts of animals and man.[/size][size=-1]Meat and poultry dishes, sauces and gravies.[/size][size=-1]Cramps and diarrhea within 12 to 24 hours. No vomiting or fever.[/size][size=-1]Improper temperature control of hot foods, and recontamination.[/size][size=-1]No growth below 40[sup]o[/sup] degrees F. Bacteria are killed by normal cooking but a heat-stable spore can survive.[/size][size=-1]Clostridium botulinum[/size][size=-1]Produces a spore and requires a low oxygen atmosphere. Produces a heat-sensitive toxin.[/size][size=-1]Soils, plants, marine sediments and fish.[/size][size=-1]Home-canned foods.[/size][size=-1]Blurred vision, respiratory distress and possible DEATH.[/size][size=-1]Improper methods of home-processing foods.[/size][size=-1]Type E and Type B can grow at 38[sup]o[/sup] F. Bacteria destroyed by cooking and the toxin is destroyed by boiling for 5 to 10 minutes. Heat-resistant spore can survive.[/size][size=-1]Vibrio parahaemolyticus[/size][size=-1]Requires salt for growth.[/size][size=-1]Fish and shellfish[/size][size=-1]Raw and cooked seafood.[/size][size=-1]Diarrhea, cramps, vomiting, headache and fever within 12 to 24 hours.[/size][size=-1]Recontamination of cooked foods or eating raw seafood.[/size][size=-1]No growth below 40[sup]o[/sup] F. Bacteria killed by normal cooking.[/size][size=-1]Bacillus cereus[/size][size=-1]Produces a spore and grows in normal oxygen atmosphere.[/size][size=-1]soil, dust and spices.[/size][size=-1]Starchy food.[/size][size=-1]Mild case of diarrhea and some nausea within 12 to 24 hours.[/size][size=-1]Improper holding and stroage temperatures after cooking.[/size][size=-1]No growth below 40[sup]o[/sup] F. Bacteria killed by normal cooking, but heat-resistant spore can survive.[/size][size=-1]Listeria monocytogenes[/size][size=-1]Survives adverse conditions for long time periods.[/size][size=-1]Soil, vegetation and water. Can survive for long periods in soil and plant materials.[/size][size=-1]Milk, soft cheeses, vegetables fertilized with manure.[/size][size=-1]Mimics meningitis. Immuno- compromised individuals most susceptible.[/size][size=-1]Contaminated raw products.[/size][size=-1]Grows at refrigeration (38-40[sup]o[/sup] F.) temperatures. May survive minimum pasturization tempertures (161[sup]o[/sup] F. for 15 seconds.)[/size][size=-1]Campylobacter jejuni[/size][size=-1]Oxygen sensitive, does not grow below 86[sup]o[/sup] F.[/size][size=-1]Animal reservoirs and foods of animal origin.[/size][size=-1]Meat, poulty, milk, and mushrooms.[/size][size=-1]Diarrhea, abdomianl cramps and nausea.[/size][size=-1]Improper pasteuriztion or cooking. cross-contamination.[/size][size=-1]Sensitive to drying or freezing. Survives in milk and water at 39 [sup]o[/sup] F for several weeks.[/size][size=-1]Versinia enterocolitica[/size][size=-1]Not frequent cause of human infection.[/size][size=-1]Poultry, beef, swine. Isolated only in human pathogen.[/size][size=-1]Milk, tofu, and pork.[/size][size=-1]Diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting. Mimics appendicitis.[/size][size=-1]Improper cooking. Cross-contamination.[/size][size=-1]Grows at refrigeration temperatures (35-40[sup]o[/sup] F.) Sensitive to heat (122 [sup]o[/sup]F.)[/size][size=-1]Enteropathogenic E. coli[/size][size=-1]Can produce toxins that are heat stable and others that are heat-sensitive.[/size][size=-1]Feces of infected humans.[/size][size=-1]Meat and cheeses.[/size][size=-1]Diarrhea, abdominal cramps, no fever.[/size][size=-1]Inadequate cooking. Recontamination of cooked product.[/size][size=-1]Organisms can be controlled by heating. Can grow at refrigeration temperatures.[/size]



>





>





> The complete article. It's a good read...  http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/poison.html


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## shoneyboy (May 5, 2012)




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## cliffcarter (May 5, 2012)

Yes, yes... this is all well and good... *But It Is Not BBQ*... I might understand the traction this post has gotten if it was posted in* Food Safety, *but in the *Electric Smokers sub-forum*? Not to mention that the original post was made over 2 years ago and got resurrected in March of this year, it seems that this is as much a history lesson as it is a debate on food safety... and now *...Back to Barbeque
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	



*


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## pops6927 (May 5, 2012)

cliffcarter said:


> Yes, yes... this is all well and good... *But It Is Not BBQ*... I might understand the traction this post has gotten if it was posted in* Food Safety, *but in the *Electric Smokers sub-forum*? Not to mention that the original post was made over 2 years ago and got resurrected in March of this year, it seems that this is as much a history lesson as it is a debate on food safety... and now *...Back to Barbeque
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most all of these posts have had some reference to either grilling or smoking at some point, even the title is "...Smoke + Sous Vide!" not just Sous Vide.

And the Sous Vide machines are electric, and many use electric smokers.  The consensus is that it is *smoked or grilled first*, then Sous Vide to its doneness, which is an electrically operated machine.  It does fit here very well.


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## keithd (May 15, 2012)

FWIW,

For brisket I sous vide for about 36 hours (usually 24-48 hours), then smoke in a MES 40 with an AMNPS for 6-8 hours until a decent bark has formed. Completely naked - no rubs, nothing. No trimming, packer cut brisket from the store.
 

After sous vide cooking, I have to be real careful to not tear the brisket apart trying to get it into the smoker.

As far as the results? Considering I lose 1/2 to 1 lbs even before I cut it up from co-workers picking at the brisket like vultures, I'd say it turns out OK.


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## ponderingturtle (May 16, 2012)

I am interested in both, and joined today to start thinking about building a smoker, maybe next year.  I have thought about using low temp water bath to say heat ribs up to 140 then smoking it at that temp. Maybe presear or finish on a broiler or grill.  Now it would have a very different texture from barbeque as you will not render fat the same way, but it could be smoky meaty goodness.


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## keithd (May 17, 2012)

Don't pre-sear. Everything I've read and done concerning sous vide tells me that the char will be soggy and washed out. Best to char post-sous vide.

If you're talking about pre-searing before smoking, I don't have any experience on that.

But pork ribs aren't tough like brisket, so don't really need to be broken down as much. However, it might be worthwhile to sous vide a couple racks overnight, then smoke in the morning. I might just have to try that.


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## ponderingturtle (May 17, 2012)

keithd said:


> Don't pre-sear. Everything I've read and done concerning sous vide tells me that the char will be soggy and washed out. Best to char post-sous vide.
> 
> If you're talking about pre-searing before smoking, I don't have any experience on that.
> 
> But pork ribs aren't tough like brisket, so don't really need to be broken down as much. However, it might be worthwhile to sous vide a couple racks overnight, then smoke in the morning. I might just have to try that.


Dave Arnold of Cooking Issues recommends a pre and post sear for low temp meats like steak.  Pre searing starts building flavors and kills surface pathogens.  It will not replace post searing but it is a beneficial method for typical SV meat cooking. And maybe I meant short ribs...

My thought was never raise their temperature up above say 155.  This may or may not be a good idea though.  The thought was that useing the water bath to get the meat to a safe temp faster than air then smoke it in at a lower temp similar to the water bath.


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## oldschoolbbq (May 17, 2012)

Done right , it _could_ happen... intresting , but... a lot of the attraction of the Smoke is sitting ,visiting , tending the fire and simple is the word here if you have the time to stay with it to the end.

Being out in the fresh air (although Cold and Hot at times), is another reason I enjoy Smoking  however , each to thier own and that's good in it's own.

My honest opinion is to keep some things as is , and as my name says , I'm Oldschool 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





.


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## ponderingturtle (May 17, 2012)

oldschoolbbq said:


> Done right , it _could_ happen... intresting , but... a lot of the attraction of the Smoke is sitting ,visiting , tending the fire and simple is the word here if you have the time to stay with it to the end.
> 
> Being out in the fresh air (although Cold and Hot at times), is another reason I enjoy Smoking  however , each to thier own and that's good in it's own.
> 
> ...


And I am an industrial engineer who automates processes and the like, so I like the idea of self precision automation control and the like.  It cuts down the man hours for one.


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## keithd (May 17, 2012)

Funny enough, that's why I do both automated and manual processes, because I enjoy both. The controller lets me sous vide for 24+ hours without having to manually maintain the cooker temps, but I still have to attend to my smoker sometimes.

And even though it's easier, I actually used to enjoy my cheap junk offset firebox smoker more than the MES 40 I have now. The MES is very convenient, but it doesn't feel "hands-on" enough, and someday I'll get another to use in combo with the MES. You can't go wrong with a MES 40 and an AMNPS, though.


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## ponderingturtle (May 17, 2012)

keithd said:


> Funny enough, that's why I do both automated and manual processes, because I enjoy both. The controller lets me sous vide for 24+ hours without having to manually maintain the cooker temps, but I still have to attend to my smoker sometimes.
> 
> And even though it's easier, I actually used to enjoy my cheap junk offset firebox smoker more than the MES 40 I have now. The MES is very convenient, but it doesn't feel "hands-on" enough, and someday I'll get another to use in combo with the MES. You can't go wrong with a MES 40 and an AMNPS, though.


I will have to keep that in mind, would adding a PID to the MES 40 make sense?


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## keithd (May 17, 2012)

Ponderingturtle said:


> I will have to keep that in mind, would adding a PID to the MES 40 make sense?


Only if you need really, really precise control - more than what I can tell is necessary. BBQ doesn't need 1/10th degree precision in my experience. A PID would give much smaller temp fluctuations as the MES drifts a few degrees above and below the set point, but it doesn't seem to matter as the thermal velocity through the meat averages out the fluctuations anyway. Sous vide and homebrewing are different as +-5 degrees can be raw/overcooked or mashed at too high/low of a temp.

I just learn my MES 40 - given a temp recommendation, how does my BBQ turn out? It would help if I could tell how far off the MES thermometer is - but I don't have access to an accurate thermometer.

All this is just my opinion, however. I'm by no means an expert - and after watching How It's Made, I wish I were a process engineer.


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## ponderingturtle (May 17, 2012)

keithd said:


> Only if you need really, really precise control - more than what I can tell is necessary. BBQ doesn't need 1/10th degree precision in my experience. A PID would give much smaller temp fluctuations as the MES drifts a few degrees above and below the set point, but it doesn't seem to matter as the thermal velocity through the meat averages out the fluctuations anyway. Sous vide and homebrewing are different as +-5 degrees can be raw/overcooked or mashed at too high/low of a temp.
> 
> I just learn my MES 40 - given a temp recommendation, how does my BBQ turn out? It would help if I could tell how far off the MES thermometer is - but I don't have access to an accurate thermometer.
> 
> All this is just my opinion, however. I'm by no means an expert - and after watching How It's Made, I wish I were a process engineer.


It can be fun filming equipment at 1000 frames per second.  Of course it is not working properly when I am doing that but it is still cool.  Now pulling your hair out for weeks when you can not figure out why something is not working right...

Looking at the MES it seems more sophisticated electronically than I thought, so switching to PID control would be more difficult.  I am thinking about just getting an electric element like a replacement smoker heating element I see on amazon and building my own box with a PID controller.  But I get torn about wood that I could build it easily out of or metal where I don't have a lot of experience with sheet metal work or welding.

I want to be able to play around with low temperature smoking so a well controlled smoker could be interesting, and possibly even useful for fish and the like, or keeping a more sous vide/low temp principle on a smoked product.


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## hoerup (Jul 7, 2012)

Why do you want to smoke first and the sous vide. Why not start doing the brisket sous vide and the do the smoking to add a nice crust? My suggestion would be to sous vide at 135F for 48 hours and then smoke at 65C for another 8 hours.


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## cliffcarter (Jul 7, 2012)

Ponderingturtle said:


> I am interested in both, and joined today to start thinking about building a smoker, maybe next year.  I have thought about using low temp water bath to say heat ribs up to 140 then smoking it at that temp. Maybe presear or finish on a broiler or grill.  Now it would have a very different texture from barbeque as you will not render fat the same way, but it could be smoky meaty goodness.





keithd said:


> Don't pre-sear. Everything I've read and done concerning sous vide tells me that the char will be soggy and washed out. Best to char post-sous vide.
> 
> If you're talking about pre-searing before smoking, I don't have any experience on that.
> 
> But pork ribs aren't tough like brisket, so don't really need to be broken down as much. However, it might be worthwhile to sous vide a couple racks overnight, then smoke in the morning. I might just have to try that.





Ponderingturtle said:


> Dave Arnold of Cooking Issues recommends a pre and post sear for low temp meats like steak.  Pre searing starts building flavors and kills surface pathogens.  It will not replace post searing but it is a beneficial method for typical SV meat cooking. And maybe I meant short ribs...
> 
> My thought was never raise their temperature up above say 155.  This may or may not be a good idea though.  The thought was that useing the water bath to get the meat to a safe temp faster than air then smoke it in at a lower temp similar to the water bath.





oldschoolbbq said:


> Done right , it _could_ happen... intresting , but... a lot of the attraction of the Smoke is sitting ,visiting , tending the fire and simple is the word here if you have the time to stay with it to the end.
> 
> Being out in the fresh air (although Cold and Hot at times), is another reason I enjoy Smoking  however , each to thier own and that's good in it's own.
> 
> ...


Just so we are all clear, this is what preseared meat looks like-







Just for the record the OP of this thread joined 4 years ago, last posted over 2 years ago and, by his own admission, never got a smoker, never cooked with charcoal and cooked meat with a "Popiel rotisserie". Doesn't take long to find all 32 of his posts, can you say "troll".

I stand with *oldschool.*


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## daveomak (Jul 7, 2012)

hoerup said:


> Why do you want to smoke first and the sous vide. Why not start doing the brisket sous vide and the do the smoking to add a nice crust? My suggestion would be to sous vide at 135F for 48 hours and then smoke at 65C for another 8 hours.


Hoerup, morning and welcome to the forum.... I see this is your first post.....  Please introduce yourself in the roll call forum,

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/133/roll-call   so folks can give you a proper welcome.....  Let us know your areas of interest and any areas of expertise you may have....  Please include your location ....   We are glad to have new members and share ideas....  You may find this forum addicting so enjoy the long smokey ride....    Dave


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## keithd (Jul 11, 2012)

That's not pre-seared meat, that's just raw meat.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Maybe you meant pre-seasoned?

Pre-seared in this context means meat that's grilled before going into the water oven. I might try it on a steak sometime just to see for myself how it turns out.

OP may have been a troll, but the rest of us honest posters made a decent discussion out of it.


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## cliffcarter (Jul 12, 2012)

keithd said:


> That's not pre-seared meat, that's just raw meat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pre-seared in the context that you are thinking of apparently means "seared before being placed in the water oven", which is what you may have wanted to say but only got somewhat close to saying it.In this case I am correct. Pre (meaning before) sear (being placed on a very hot grill-a variation of your context) thus-







Doesn't matter if it is seasoned or not, only that it has not yet been placed on that very hot grill.


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## alelover (Jul 12, 2012)

Pre means before still, right?


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## keithd (Jul 12, 2012)

Please look at this link:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/03/how-to-sous-vide-steak.html

This is what is meant when talking about pre-sear for sous vide. For Q and grilling, maybe not, but in sous vide terminology pre-seared meat means meat that's seared before hitting the water oven.

If I'm wrong, I apologise, but sous vide is one of my hobbies.


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## cliffcarter (Jul 13, 2012)

keithd said:


> Please look at this link:
> 
> http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/03/how-to-sous-vide-steak.html
> 
> ...


The author of the article at the link you provided uses the term correctly in the title of his temp chart and incorrectly in the text.

I cannot speak to the rationale of internet authors who want to invent new ways to to abuse the English language, but to use the term "pre-sear" when you mean to say "sear" and "post-sear" when you mean to say "sear after cooking" is not clear and concise communication IMHO.


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## ponderingturtle (Jul 16, 2012)

cliffcarter said:


> The author of the article at the link you provided uses the term correctly in the title of his temp chart and incorrectly in the text.
> 
> I cannot speak to the rationale of internet authors who want to invent new ways to to abuse the English language, but to use the term "pre-sear" when you mean to say "sear" and "post-sear" when you mean to say "sear after cooking" is not clear and concise communication IMHO.


Depends on how it is being used, like so much of the English language context is key.

If you talk about applying seasoning pre or post sear you are talking about before or after the sear.  But we are talking about pre or post searing, so it has gone from an adjective to a verb.  So as a verb pre sear means to sear before, and that is the way it is being used here.

Bad pedant, no biscuit.


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## cliffcarter (Jul 16, 2012)

Ponderingturtle said:


> Depends on how it is being used, like so much of the English language context is key.
> 
> If you talk about applying seasoning pre or post sear you are talking about before or after the sear.  But we are talking about pre or post searing, so it has gone from an adjective to a verb.  So as a verb pre sear means to sear before, and that is the way it is being used here.
> 
> Bad pedant, no biscuit.


Let's see... pre-sear means "before(the)sear"... but you want it to mean "sear before", I contend that, in proper English usage and in the context which it is being used in the discussion of the method of cooking meat sous vide, you can say "sear pre sous vide" or "sear post sous vide" and create a concise description of what you mean, instead of just dancing around it.

Bad English, no steak.

If I want a biscuit I make them myself.


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## urbanredneck (Sep 25, 2012)

Well sorry I'm so late to the game here!  Just ordered my Haake Immersion circulator- originally I was using my cheapo smoker controller to run a circulation pump with a bucket heater, but after it finally bit the dust, I decided to get a pro unit- I never did trust the think for longer cooks, so I'm really looking forward to brisket sous vide with a smoker finish- see if I can still get a good smoke ring with the ol stick burner.  

Just food for thought on this one, but with the price of the sous vide equipment out there, I'm surprised that a quality unit hasn't popped up in the same price range as turkey fryers and the like- the electric turkey fryer with an electronic instead of manual temp controller could easily be a solid sous vide or fryer.... I know there are folks that hack it with an external controller, but sure would be nice to have a single unit that does both from the factory.

Great posts all, and definitely keep it safe!


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## zackly (Sep 26, 2012)

As sous vide becomes more mainstream I'm sure the equipment will become much cheaper as more and larger manufacturers step into the game. Personally, I think sous vide will one day become hugecause it's simple to do & yields tremendous results. For example I just picked up a 2# beef chuck roast for under $6.00. I browned it in a pan with salt & pepper, bagged it using Ziploc Vacuum Bags, & put it in my cooker. That took less than 10 minuted. In two days I'll have a delicious, tender, medium rare hunk of beef that rivals prime rib! I envision food manufactures offering  sous vide ready frozen (or refrigerated) center of the plate entrees in the future.


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## ponderingturtle (Oct 1, 2012)

zackly said:


> As sous vide becomes more mainstream I'm sure the equipment will become much cheaper as more and larger manufacturers step into the game. Personally, I think sous vide will one day become hugecause it's simple to do & yields tremendous results. For example I just picked up a 2# beef chuck roast for under $6.00. I browned it in a pan with salt & pepper, bagged it using Ziploc Vacuum Bags, & put it in my cooker. That took less than 10 minuted. In two days I'll have a delicious, tender, medium rare hunk of beef that rivals prime rib! I envision food manufactures offering  sous vide ready frozen (or refrigerated) center of the plate entrees in the future.


Maybe maybe not.  It would be a workable idea, but it might run afoul of regulation, see all the resturants that got prevented from using this technique.  So it could require a change in regulation to permit this.


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## bigfoot21075 (Jun 25, 2013)

keithd said:


> FWIW,
> 
> For brisket I sous vide for about 36 hours (usually 24-48 hours), then smoke in a MES 40 with an AMNPS for 6-8 hours until a decent bark has formed. Completely naked - no rubs, nothing. No trimming, packer cut brisket from the store.
> 
> ...


DO you cut up that packer cut Keith or leave it whole and use the bag it comes in (usually cryo) What temp is your Sous Vide? What temp is your smoker? If this was a troll started post - it is the best one ever!

I just got a PolyScience Sous Vide, and really want to use it in conjunction with my multitude of grilling devices!


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## dcarch (Jun 25, 2013)

I have not read the whole thread.

Relatively new to this forum.

Sous vide + smoke = ultimate "low & slow"

What I have been playing with recently.

dcarch


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## fwismoker (Jun 25, 2013)

I'll take a Maverick food probe...take my steak to 130-135 depending on thickness in a smokey environment, 1 minute hot sear on each side and rest it. 

It'll be just as perfectly done on the inside...maybe for folks with out smokers this is an option?


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## dcarch (Jun 25, 2013)

What sous vide can give me is this:

I can have a piece of meat, doesn't matter how small, how big, or how heavy, completely frozen from the freezer, without thawing, dump it in the sous vide cooker, set the temperature, say 134 F for brisket, and walk away and go to sleep. and not having to check anything for 48 hours (some cuts of meat up to 72 hours)

The cooking temperature will be guaranteed to be at 134F, not 133F, or 135F the entire time.

The entire piece of meat, inside and outside will be exactly 134F. There is no need to poke around with a thermometer.

dcarch


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## bigfoot21075 (Jun 26, 2013)

FWIsmoker said:


> I'll take a Maverick food probe...take my steak to 130-135 depending on thickness in a smokey environment, 1 minute hot sear on each side and rest it.
> 
> It'll be just as perfectly done on the inside...maybe for folks with out smokers this is an option?


The end result is totally different between the two methods


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## cliffcarter (Jun 27, 2013)

dcarch said:


> What sous vide can give me is this:
> 
> I can have a piece of meat, doesn't matter how small, how big, or how heavy, completely frozen from the freezer, without thawing, dump it in the sous vide cooker, set the temperature, say 134 F for brisket, and walk away and go to sleep. and not having to check anything for 48 hours (some cuts of meat up to 72 hours)
> 
> ...


Or you can take that same steak, thaw it in the fridge for two days, season it, sear and then cook to smoky perfection in about 10 minutes. No added expense to the electric bill or worrying that the power goes out while you are away.

I do agree with the thermometer statement, though.


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## daveomak (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey folks..... Lets not start "My dad can beat up your dad"....  Keep it civil.....

Dave


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## kathrynn (Jun 27, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Hey folks..... Lets not start "My dad can beat up your dad"....  Keep it civil.....
> 
> Dave


Dcarch.....I just noticed you have not checked in at Roll Call!  Would you mind popping in there and allowing us to give you a proper SMF Welcome!? http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/133/roll-call
 

We can also give you some links with the guidelines and rules here in the Forums.

Kat


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## cliffcarter (Jun 28, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Hey folks..... Lets not start "My dad can beat up your dad"....  Keep it civil.....
> 
> Dave


My post is a model of civility IMHO.


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## zackly (Jun 28, 2013)

When I first got into sous vide cooking about 5 years ago I went a little overboard cooking everything imaginable sous vide, much like you see BBQ zealots baking cakes in their smokers. Now I use it mostly for tough cuts of beef like chuck roasts & short ribs (cooked days not hours) as well as soft boiled eggs in the shell. Being able to produce rare pot roast or short ribs is something special and not to be missed. Another great use is cooking boneless/skinless chix breast. You can safely cook them @ 140F for 3 hours, which yield a very moist breast. As for steaks, I don't see the benefit of sous vide. In fact the steak comes out of the bag very wet from its rendered juices which inhibits browning. However, as the OP mentioned it's great for cooking a frozen steak.

I think there is a lot of anti-snobbery surrounding sous vide. Maybe because of the French name? Unknown things frighten us all. Although I'm a retired chef and CIA grad I'm as down home as they get when it comes to cooking . I cook every day. I love cooking and it's nice now to experiment leisurely with new ingredients, recipes & techniques. I have only scraped the surface of cooking knowledge.It's a continuous process. I think of my sous vide equipment as I do my crock pots, which I use all the time.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2013)

_*"-----I think there is a lot of anti-snobbery surrounding sous vide. Maybe because of the French name? Unknown things frighten us all.------"*_

Sous vide is NOT cooking under pressure and it has nothing to do with vacuum.

It is very a very simple cooking method. It is cooking by temperature controlled water bath.

It used to cost several thousand dollars for the equipment, Now you can DIY a very good system for less than $50.00.

A BGE with a BBQ Guru attachment is very similar to sous vide. It is cooking by temperature controlled air.  

dcarch


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## chitown smoker (Mar 30, 2018)

dcarch said:


> _*"-----I think there is a lot of anti-snobbery surrounding sous vide. Maybe because of the French name? Unknown things frighten us all.------"*_
> 
> Sous vide is NOT cooking under pressure and it has nothing to do with vacuum.
> 
> ...



FYI Sous Vide literally means "under vacuum".  So, it does have to do with that.

That being said, I'm on your side.  Anything I don't smoke, I sous vide.  I'm thinking of combining and doing a 72 hour brisket with a few hours smoked at the end.


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