# MES30 and too much smoke from AMPS



## meperson (Jul 21, 2014)

I am totally new to smoking and picked up an analog MES30 and an AMPS.  Unlike most, it seems, I'm generating too much smoke (mesquite and Pitmaster's blend pellets) from the AMPS, likely because the analog has no venting to allow the smoke to escape.  I drilled in four 3/8" holes on each side, two on the bottom, two on top.  I guess I feel like I'm generating way too much smoke; when I open the door, I'm blasted by the cloud of white smoke.  I smoked a Mac & Cheese, as well as a Chicken Cordon Bleu Fatty (pics added for fun), but they seemed to taste oversmoked.  Any ideas/suggestions for adding additional venting to allow the smoke to escape?













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__ meperson
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__ meperson
__ Jul 21, 2014


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## Bearcarver (Jul 21, 2014)

Which Amazing did you get?

AMNS dust smoker

AMNPS 5" X 8" Pellet & dust smoker

AMNTS Tube pellet smoker

If it's the 5" X 8" AMNPS, you could try filling it 1/2 full (in height) instead of full.

You could also drill more holes at the top.

Bear


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## meperson (Jul 21, 2014)

It is indeed the 5x8 AMNPS.  I feel like it should have been intuitive to fill the AMNPS half way; now I feel dumb for having asked the question.  Will give this a go before I keep drilling out the walls on the MES.  Thanks for the tip!!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 21, 2014)

meperson said:


> It is indeed the 5x8 AMNPS.  I feel like it should have been intuitive to fill the AMNPS half way; now I feel dumb for having asked the question.  Will give this a go before I keep drilling out the walls on the MES.  Thanks for the tip!!


LOL---It wasn't dumb to ask, and I'm not even sure how low you can fill it, and still have it work, because I never tried it below 1/4" from the top.

You get to be the experimenter.  Let us know how it works.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 21, 2014)

I've always felt I had too much smoke too, but then I also fill the first two rows full up. From now on, I'll be filling them half-way up, too. For most smokes, I've found out I not only get plenty of smoke I also have pellets left over but I rarely smoke more than 3-4 hours. I think only one time did I use up a full AMNPS of pellets.


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## ctonello (Jul 22, 2014)

Also you could pull the amnps early and finish the food with just heat. Maybe only some for 1-2 hours


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## Bearcarver (Jul 23, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> I've always felt I had too much smoke too, but then I also fill the first two rows full up. From now on, I'll be filling them half-way up, too. For most smokes, I've found out I not only get plenty of smoke I also have pellets left over but I rarely smoke more than 3-4 hours. I think only one time did I use up a full AMNPS of pellets.


When you know your smoker, you can pretty much predict how much you need. I get 10 to 11 hours with a full load of pellets in my AMNPS, so I know that one row will get me at least 3 to 3 1/2 hours. When you get into smoking Bacon, Dried Beef, or other long slow smokes, you'll be glad to fill--er-up and let her put a lot of light TBS on for a long time.

Bear


CTonello said:


> Also you could pull the amnps early and finish the food with just heat. Maybe only some for 1-2 hours


The "Too Much Smoke" that "meperson" was getting wasn't a problem with smoking too long. His problem was with the smoke being too heavy. 

A whole lot of hours of TBS is Great, but a short time of Heavy smoke is bad.

So pulling his AMNPS early wouldn't solve the problem he was having.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 23, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> When you know your smoker, you can pretty much predict how much you need. I get 10 to 11 hours with a full load of pellets in my AMNPS, so I know that one row will get me at least 3 to 3 1/2 hours. When you get into smoking Bacon, Dried Beef, or other long slow smokes, you'll be glad to fill--er-up and let her put a lot of light TBS on for a long time.
> 
> Bear
> 
> ...


This is what I hate about smoking! Now I'm back to loading 'er up good! Truth be told I've got a lot to learn about my smoker yet. Smoking bacon and jerky are both on my someday list. I just want to get consistent results with pork ribs and beef brisket. There's even a turkey breast in our freezer that's been waiting a long time to be smoked. On one hand, the AMNPS inside the MES makes it practically set-it-and-forget-it but there's still multiple things to take into consideration, including skill and style, to smoking foods to perfection--or at least really good tasting.


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## daricksta (Jul 23, 2014)

CTonello said:


> Also you could pull the amnps early and finish the food with just heat. Maybe only some for 1-2 hours


That's what the 3-2-1 is all about. I learned that food no longer takes in smoke after 3 hours; some guys have said that corresponds to an internal meat temp of 160 degrees. I like judging it by time than by temp. But that means you do pull the AMNPS out after 3 hours and just use heat.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> That's what the 3-2-1 is all about. I learned that food no longer takes in smoke after 3 hours; some guys have said that corresponds to an internal meat temp of 160 degrees. I like judging it by time than by temp. But that means you do pull the AMNPS out after 3 hours and just use heat.


Food takes smoke for as long as it's put on it. It might take less at certain temps, but it keeps taking it.

Maybe you heard about the smoke ring stopping after a certain temp.

I keep light TBS on everything I smoke all the time, unless it gets foiled.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Food takes smoke for as long as it's put on it. It might take less at certain temps, but it keeps taking it.
> 
> Maybe you heard about the smoke ring stopping after a certain temp.
> 
> ...


I never heard that about smoke rings, but you don't get them in an MES anyway.  And I don't know, the BBQ instructor guy was adamant that food stops taking smoke after 3 hours. Someone in these forums said the smoke intake stopped at 160 degrees and they weren't talking about smoke rings. I researched the internet but didn't find anything to corroborate what the BBQ guy said but The Tasting Buds site said 2-3 hours was optimum for smoking. Other than that I saw guys talking of smoking times from 3 hours to however long they felt it took so now my jury is still out on the subject.

How do you keep light TBS, Bear? I don't know how to control the amount of smoke produced by the AMNPS.


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## foamheart (Jul 24, 2014)

Ya know it may have been me, I tell folks that meat is most suceptible to absorbing smoke from 100 to 140 degrees (IT) which I have read in numerous places including I believe a post by Jeff. But I also elaborate that the meat will still take some smoke but at a diminished capacaity above and below the prime rate.

It is my understanding that the meat must be warmed for the pores to open to accept the maxium smoke absorption which I can completely understand, and somewhere around 140 to 150 these pore start rendering or giving off fatty fluids which inhibit the smoke absorption, the higher the temp the more rendered. Plus there is only so much room to add smoke, when there is too much, is when people start shouting creosote even though its only too much smoke.

AMPs was engineered and designed to allow for the max. amount of allowable smoke to be used without over smoking. I think I said that well! I serious do not believe that an AMPs when used as directed could ever over smoke a meat. It is a small continious smolder, if you are smoking both ends at the same time I still doubt it could over smoke. Now if you would like less smoke flavor on your meat load less in the tray.

Smoking a butt for 20 hours of cooking, I just don't see the point personally, but many folks have the idea because of what they have seen someone do that because the wood was smoking to cook the meat that the smoke was needed. To each their own, its the nice thing about smoking. You learn to smoke and bend your smokers will to accomplish the finished product you want, the way you want to cook it. That way we get plenty of experience, to gain that much needed knowledge and become wise enough to not need foils, digital thermometers, etc., and still know enough to be able to use them when needed.

I am buying chips, chunks, splits, or pellets and I'd just rather not use what I feel is not needed. Thats why I own and use AMP's when I am done smoking I can close the vent on the smoker which removes the oxygen as well as the draft thru, the AMPs shuts down and I can use that remaining in the try on my next smoke if I didn't time it out right.

To the topic, you can not over smoke with an AMPs even if you tried, the available oxygen and the available inline fuel would not support it.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2014)

Ricksta

Here's a couple discussions (Below). Most seem to agree with a few things.

1   You can put light smoke on as long as you want.

2   Put smoke on until you foil at about 160*--165*.

3   It won't take smoke after 160* if you foiled it at 160*. LOL---Maybe that's what you read??



*How*  *many*  *hours*  of *smoke*???

I usually *smoke*  my birds at 450 for 1 hr., then drop it down to 350 until internal temp is where...
In Forum: Pork
Replies: 19   |  Started: May 30, 2008  |  Last Post: May 30, 2008 at 2:29 pm


*how*  *many*  *hours*  of *smoke*  on a butt ??

....going to go real slow around 205-210 if I can...probably use apple since that is what I have...
In Forum: General Discussion
Replies: 10   |  Started: May 9, 2013  |  Last Post: May 9, 2013 at 6:12 pm

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> I never heard that about smoke rings, but you don't get them in an MES anyway.  And I don't know, the BBQ instructor guy was adamant that food stops taking smoke after 3 hours. Someone in these forums said the smoke intake stopped at 160 degrees and they weren't talking about smoke rings. I researched the internet but didn't find anything to corroborate what the BBQ guy said but The Tasting Buds site said 2-3 hours was optimum for smoking. Other than that I saw guys talking of smoking times from 3 hours to however long they felt it took so now my jury is still out on the subject.
> 
> How do you keep light TBS, Bear? I don't know how to control the amount of smoke produced by the AMNPS.


Your BBQ instructor is wrong if he thinks food stops taking smoke after 3 hours.

All I do is fill my AMNPS or AMNS to 1/4" below the top, and light one end. It smokes perfectly the whole time. Sometimes it gets a little heavy at a turn, but not enough to worry about.

TBS is the way to go on everything-----As long as you want.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> Ya know it may have been me, I tell folks that meat is most suceptible to absorbing smoke from 100 to 140 degrees (IT) which I have read in numerous places including I believe a post by Jeff. But I also elaborate that the meat will still take some smoke but at a diminished capacaity above and below the prime rate.
> 
> It is my understanding that the meat must be warmed for the pores to open to accept the maxium smoke absorption which I can completely understand, and somewhere around 140 to 150 these pore start rendering or giving off fatty fluids which inhibit the smoke absorption, the higher the temp the more rendered. Plus there is only so much room to add smoke, when there is too much, is when people start shouting creosote even though its only too much smoke.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this really important information, Bear. You know so much more about both the MES and AMNPS than I do. Yes, it is a continuous smolder unlike using wood chunks and chips and whole logs. I also bought the MES for its convenience and because it's the best smoker at its price point on the market.

I read in an article that when people (like me) complain that the smoked meat has a bitter taste, it's not from oversmoking but from the creosote buildup inside the smoker. Do you think creosote is a problem with the MES and the AMNPS?

If you're buying chunks and splits, are you using those inside your MES or do you have a 2nd and larger smoker?

You do what I do: save the unburned pellets for the next smoke. My problem is that I have a couple of rows in my AMNPS and I can't remember what mix of wood pellets I used. But from what I've been told, the difference in smoke flavors from wood pellets is so subtle it doesn't matter anyway. Whatever I've got in my AMNPS is going to be used to smoke cheeses this weekend and then I'll refill it with pecan or something (just as an experiment) to use to smoke my baby backs.


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## geerock (Jul 24, 2014)

Is this the same instructor that told you to smoke at between 180 and 220?  Have a feeling this guy thibks he knows more than he does.  As for the smoke.... its very easy to oversmoke with mesquite.  You might try a 3 inch adjustable vent for exhaust as long as you're drilling away.  You need to keep that air and smoke flowing.


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

geerock said:


> Is this the same instructor that told you to smoke at between 180 and 220? Have a feeling this guy thibks he knows more than he does. As for the smoke.... its very easy to oversmoke with mesquite. You might try a 3 inch adjustable vent for exhaust as long as you're drilling away. You need to keep that air and smoke flowing.


Yes, same guy. He says he's been educated at 3 different culinary academies, one is Italy. He's been teaching this course for, I think, 20 years and he's located in about 3-4 states with instructors working under him. I think he does know most of his stuff, but he and were diametrically opposed on politics (he being FAR to the right). Politics and some other comments and topics he broached had no business in a BBQ class.

I don't plan to mod my MES; I think the exhaust vent works fine and I'm not one to mod things since I would mostly like ruin it beyond repair and use.


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Your BBQ instructor is wrong if he thinks food stops taking smoke after 3 hours.
> 
> All I do is fill my AMNPS or AMNS to 1/4" below the top, and light one end. It smokes perfectly the whole time. Sometimes it gets a little heavy at a turn, but not enough to worry about.
> 
> ...


He could be; he was certainly wrong on his politics which he insisted on bringing into the class, along with his personal feud with a guy who's the spokesman for Traeger or something. There were other things he said which were most definitely off topic but he's the kind of guy who thinks it's his class so he can say what he wants. I did pick up some great info and techniques though.

1/4" below the top--I'll try that out this weekend. I think I've been filling it up higher than that.


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Ricksta
> 
> Here's a couple discussions (Below). Most seem to agree with a few things.
> 
> ...





Bearcarver said:


> Ricksta
> 
> Here's a couple discussions (Below). Most seem to agree with a few things.
> 
> ...


This could be what I read. I wonder if reaching that 160 temp corresponds with about 3 hours smoking--depending on the smoker temp? I won't be able to test this out on rib because I don't think you can insert a probe deep enough to get an internal temp so you have to go by both time and the bend test, right?

I've still got plans to smoke a chuckie and a turkey breast so I can experiment with those. Six hours is about the most I smoke anything, Can't see how guys do those 12-14 hour jobs.


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## foamheart (Jul 24, 2014)

_*"I read in an article that when people (like me) complain that the smoked meat has a bitter taste, it's not from oversmoking but from the creosote buildup inside the smoker. Do you think creosote is a problem with the MES and the AMNPS?"*_

_*"Burning wood and fossil fuels at low temperature causes incomplete combustion of the oils in the wood, which are off-gassed as volatiles in the smoke. As the smoke rises through the chimney it cools, causing water, carbon, and volatiles to condense on the interior surfaces of the chimney flue. The black oily residue that builds up is referred to as creosote, which is similar in composition to the commercial products by the same name, but with a higher content of carbon black."*_

No, the pellets should burn completely. The chips should burn completely. The chunks should burn completely. Yes, the splits also. Although if you simply use high temp (high oxygen comsumption) you are burning the wood and not smoking it. Think about a gas stove, when it has too much fuel (or lack of the proper mix of oxyen) the botton of your pans turn black. The black is from the residues left from and incomplete burn. That is why the vents should be regulated. You want enough air to smoker a TBS (The shimmering heat with a tint of blue) without adding too much air to case a fire.

_*"If you're buying chunks and splits, are you using those inside your MES or do you have a 2nd and larger smoker?"*_

I have 8+ smokers depending upon your defination. 3 pipe pits, 1 offset and at least 3 electric, digital and analogs. That doesn't include fixed brick and motar grills nor the piles of cinder blocks ocassionally used or some of the pits built of ignorance like the transite hog smoker nor the galvanized pipe pit. AND my Pop's lost metal TeePee offset....LOL  But they all just cook meat, some grill some smoke, all are fun everytime used.  Does a weedburner under a expansion metal grate on adjustable legs count? LOL I got more junk that the law should allow.

You have to put resin in the air to cause creosote, form a voilatible gas which can be condensed. Properly seasoned wood be it pellets or splits should not form creosote. But it seems easier to call the problem creosote instead of the proper term of appling too much smoke.


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> Ya know it may have been me, I tell folks that meat is most suceptible to absorbing smoke from 100 to 140 degrees (IT) which I have read in numerous places including I believe a post by Jeff. But I also elaborate that the meat will still take some smoke but at a diminished capacaity above and below the prime rate.
> 
> It is my understanding that the meat must be warmed for the pores to open to accept the maxium smoke absorption which I can completely understand, and somewhere around 140 to 150 these pore start rendering or giving off fatty fluids which inhibit the smoke absorption, the higher the temp the more rendered. Plus there is only so much room to add smoke, when there is too much, is when people start shouting creosote even though its only too much smoke.
> 
> ...


When I first read this I thought it was posted by Bear since I didn't notice your nick, Foamheart. Sorry.

Isn't It a good idea to rub the meat or otherwise season the outside (and inject if that's what you want to do) and leave it on a wire rack in the kitchen for about an hour before placing it in the smoker? This dries out the meat surface and warms the meat up enough to cook faster and better except the smoke, I believe. Leaving it at room temp for 60 minutes while the smoker preheats is still keeping the meat out of the danger zone.


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## foamheart (Jul 24, 2014)

If you are going to rub, season using and oil or mustard what is the point? It can't form a pellicle.

If you are trying to change the temperature, remember the 4-140 rule, you are lossing smoking time to accomplish this, althought I realize you are starting at a more opportune IT.

But this is another topic of discussion.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2014)

Ricksta,

Some of your questions answered.

I just about only use Hickory, so my leftover pellets can go right back in the Jug they came out of.

If I used different flavors, I would probably start a special jug to put all kinds of leftover pellets in, and use it now & then.

I no longer buy chunks or splits---Stopped that 4 years ago, and gave my supply to my Son for his Large BGE.

Ribs wouldn't be a good test because they usually get foiled at 2 or 3 hours.

My butts don't get to 160* IT until probably at least 5 or 6 hours.

This has been tested by many, and the only one I've heard say that meat stops taking smoke at 3 hours is that 20 year instructor.

Could be the old story-----

If you can---Do.

If you can't----Teach.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> When I first read this I thought it was posted by Bear since I didn't notice your nick, Foamheart. Sorry.
> 
> Isn't It a good idea to rub the meat or otherwise season the outside (and inject if that's what you want to do) and leave it on a wire rack in the kitchen for about an hour before placing it in the smoker? This dries out the meat surface and warms the meat up enough to cook faster and better except the smoke, I believe. Leaving it at room temp for 60 minutes while the smoker preheats is still keeping the meat out of the danger zone.


How do you know it would be out of the Danger Zone in 4 hours?

What temp are you using to get to 140* in 3 hours, after 1 hour sitting on counter.

Here's my Pork Butt that went straight from fridge to smoker @ 220*.

Take a look at it-----Took 4 1/4 hours to get to 124* IT-------5 1/4 hours to get to 137*.

That's why I don't inject or temp probe before 3 hours in, or set my meat around the house before putting it in the smoker.

Check my time notes:

*Pulled Boston Pork Butt*  

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> How do you know it would be out of the Danger Zone in 4 hours?
> 
> What temp are you using to get to 140* in 3 hours, after 1 hour sitting on counter.
> 
> ...


Bear, before I write anything else, I must first write that I'm keeping your port butt recipe. Haven't cooked one myself yet but it's on the to-do list.

I miswrote: the 1 hour sit time on the rack is for steaks only that are to be grilled, broiled, or fried in a pan or on a flat top. The salt keeps any bacteria from forming during that hour inside or out (since the salt draws out moisture and even if the internal temp drops below 140 degrees it's been there for less than an hour and the steak will be cooking at over 500 degrees anyway.

Where I was mistaken was applying this to roasts and larger cuts of meat where I agree with you about the dangers of not getting the temp back up to 140 within four hours. But what confuses me about temps is that when pro chefs cook steaks or burgers ground from chuck or sirloin or brisket or pork whatever, they serve it at an internal temp of 135-138 for medium rare. If that temp is not hot enough to kill latent bacteria, why do they do it? I see rare-to-medium rare burgers and steaks being served by celebrity chefs all the time on TV.


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## waywardswede (Jul 25, 2014)

> But what confuses me about temps is that when pro chefs cook steaks or burgers ground from chuck or sirloin or brisket or whatever, they serve it at an internal temp of 135-138 for medium rare. If that temp is not hot enough to kill latent bacteria, why do they do it? I see rare-to-medium rare burgers and steaks being served by celebrity chefs all the time on TV.


It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

WaywardSwede said:


> It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.


This is my basic understanding of it,. Wayward. But I still wonder about the safety of eating beef cooked to below 140 degrees from an E.coli contamination perspective. Depending on the cattle raising or slaughterhouse environment and practices, whole sides of beef or steaks and roasts could contain E. coli so any meat dish made from these meats would be infested with those live little buggers and they would remain alive below the minimum 140 degrees and so contracting a food borne illness would be a possibility. I've heard of cooking a steak to 135 degrees and letting it set for a carryover temp of 138 for medium rare but the steaks and burgers I see on TV food shows like more like rare than medium rare so aren't they all taking a chance on poisoning themselves and their diners if by chance they were cooking up contaminated meat--operative word being "if"?


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## waywardswede (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes.  Which is why you see meat recalls, and disclaimers in restaurants saying you shouldn't be eating food that isn't cooked thoroughly.  But I don't like well-done beef, so I choose to live on the edge and (as misplaced as it may be) have some faith in the USDA and meat inspectors.  It's a personal choice, and a risk I'm willing to take.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

WaywardSwede said:


> Yes.  Which is why you see meat recalls, and disclaimers in restaurants saying you shouldn't be eating food that isn't cooked thoroughly.  But I don't like well-done beef, so I choose to live on the edge and (as misplaced as it may be) have some faith in the USDA and meat inspectors.  It's a personal choice, and a risk I'm willing to take.


The favorite steak and beef roast doneness for my son and I is medium rare and I prefer my burgers cooked medium with some pink. The wife prefers everything medium well just like daddy used to cook it.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Ricksta,
> 
> Some of your questions answered.
> 
> ...


Can't say about the teacher but he knew more than I do. Just curious, can you taste the difference in taste between different wood pellets used in a MES? I've got every wood pellet "flavor" for every meat and occasion but I'm not sure if I would know the difference and of course it makes it harder when I custom blend them just for experimentation. But with professionally smoked food I can tell the difference between the hardwoods used for smoking.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> If you are going to rub, season using and oil or mustard what is the point? It can't form a pellicle.
> 
> If you are trying to change the temperature, remember the 4-140 rule, you are lossing smoking time to accomplish this, althought I realize you are starting at a more opportune IT.
> 
> But this is another topic of discussion.


As I wrote to Bear, I realized that it was steaks only that are covered with salt and left out for an hour before grilling.

Pellicle! That was what the teacher said that forms on meat surfaces after 3 hours of smoking which blocks the further absorption of smoke. This is what I was trying to explain to Bear but couldn't remember the term. And I have also been going over the 4-140 rule, which I do follow.

Again, I was mistaken about the application dry and wet rubs to meats and letting them sit out. The rubs are for ribs, chicken, briskets--meats where you want the rubs to both flavor the meat and form an outside crust or bark. However, I do take all meats out before I grill or smoke them to let the IT warm up a beat, typically 30 minutes in advance.


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## foamheart (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't mind grilling hamburgers, maybe throwing some chips down in the coals while the meat is on, but as to smoking ground meat, no way Jose. I would no more do a hamburger than a fatty. Its just me. Funny thing, I have no problem nibbling a piece of raw ground meat I have ground. I believe that there is a distinct difference between the meats/cuts that I should grill and what I will smoke. Adventurous in my younger days, I pretty much used up most of my luck, and for some strange reason I don't seem to bounce back up again quite so fast these days. Food poisioning put me down for a solid week during boot camp, that pretty much was at my prime and now, even though thought sorta scares me.

Its just me and my rule, each person must set their own boundaries. I see ground meat from the market were its already oxidized the meat, or the blood has dropped, well......... I just feel safer and I know I like the flavors better when I grind my own. Besides I don't make enough sausage to alone justify even an inexpensive meat grinder. You would be amazed at the difference in taste and quality. You can make ground meat to the percentage you want, while adding flavors like ground bacon to it...OMG thats good stuff.

You roll the dice everytime you eat, if you roll wrong on that 1 in 10,000 that you finially got, food poisoning is not a happy place to me. Believe me! You never know when its your number, so you must treat everytime like its that one.

TV Chefs are inspirational, resturant Chefs are in a completely different atmosphere and have minimum wage helpers. Tiger Woods makes golf look easy too.

Its just easier for me to grill some foods, hamburgers, hotdogs, sausages, steaks, fajitis, etc.....


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Ricksta,
> 
> Some of your questions answered.
> 
> ...


Foamheart wrote the magic word that I forgot below: pellicle! The instructor said that through chemical/enzyme reaction it takes about 3 hours for the pellicle to form on the outside of the meat and it's this pellicle that closes off the meat to further smoke absorption. But from chatting with you and from other reading, this is at best a general statement and not a hard and fast guideline. The biggest hole in his theory is that the variations--as you pointed out--in size and thickness of the meat and in the cooking temps will also vary when this pellicle forms and how solid it is and now much of the meat surface it covers. Pellicle--who could forget a word like that?


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## foamheart (Jul 25, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> As I wrote to Bear, I realized that it was steaks only that are covered with salt and left out for an hour before grilling.
> 
> Pellicle! That was what the teacher said that forms on meat surfaces after 3 hours of smoking which blocks the further absorption of smoke. This is what I was trying to explain to Bear but couldn't remember the term. And I have also been going over the 4-140 rule, which I do follow.
> 
> Again, I was mistaken about the application dry and wet rubs to meats and letting them sit out. The rubs are for ribs, chicken, briskets--meats where you want the rubs to both flavor the meat and form an outside crust or bark. However, I do take all meats out before I grill or smoke them to let the IT warm up a beat, typically 30 minutes in advance.


I would have to question the teachers knowledge. Politely of course.

Pellicle is good, its like sticky glue to get that smoke to stick upon. It is a yellowish tacky substance that forms from the slight dehydration of fat carrying skins and meats. Mr. Todd, aka Woodcutter taught me about the importance of pellicle. Who says old dogs can't learn? But he forms his with 30 mins of applied fan. After trying his way I bought cheap fan to use (it was like 10.00 at Newegg on sale). I normally try to allow fowl to set in the reefer for 24 hours uncovered to dry the skin and that will normally do it, but as with loins, that fan works wonders.

Set the meat out? I do the same, I normally set my meat out, then go start and prep the smoker, come back and prep my meat, then check the smoker and add the meat .Unless its a pork butt or Brisket which are long low and slow cooks. It all comes from the old days from steaks. if you have a steak and grill it, you have 3.5 hours till worry about the the rule with a 30 min. grill time (more like 7 to 9 mins...LOL) It helps with the fat on the steak (being from the south we like fat), but I am starting to believe what is good for the fat may not be good for the muscle. The cold center may help that med. rare pink to last longer. Neighbor grills his steaks partially frozen to ensure a cold center.

You might do your own study, I have drawn a different conclusion about fowl and rubs which seems correct. Spices and herbs can not travel thru skin due to the oils there in. You can flavor the meat under the skin, or in the cavity or by brines and injections. But I don't understand how a rub can get thru the skin to the meat. Since that skin doesn't need a candy coating to hold moisture thru a low and slow cook. I don't see that it is doing anything but sitting on the skin.


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## foamheart (Jul 25, 2014)

I spell on a 6 year old level, which is only exceeded ny my typing, its a 4 year old level. Pellicle is a bitch to remember how to spell....ROFLMAO.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> I don't mind grilling hamburgers, maybe throwing some chips down in the coals while the meat is on, but as to smoking ground meat, no way Jose. I would no more do a hamburger than a fatty. Its just me. Funny thing, I have no problem nibbling a piece of raw ground meat I have ground. I believe that there is a distinct difference between the meats/cuts that I should grill and what I will smoke. Adventurous in my younger days, I pretty much used up most of my luck, and for some strange reason I don't seem to bounce back up again quite so fast these days. Food poisioning put me down for a solid week during boot camp, that pretty much was at my prime and now, even though thought sorta scares me.
> 
> Its just me and my rule, each person must set their own boundaries. I see ground meat from the market were its already oxidized the meat, or the blood has dropped, well......... I just feel safer and I know I like the flavors better when I grind my own. Besides I don't make enough sausage to alone justify even an inexpensive meat grinder. You would be amazed at the difference in taste and quality. You can make ground meat to the percentage you want, while adding flavors like ground bacon to it...OMG thats good stuff.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to imply that I smoked burgers, I was just talking generically about cooking with cuts of meat. Unlike you, I can't see nibbling on a bit of raw ground cow, but I agree there's a difference between meat for grilling or roasting and meat for smoking. The one beef exception is smoking a chuck roast as a chuckie, something Bear introduced me to but I've yet to try. Of course beef and pork ribs can also be cooked in various ways, too.

I can relate to food poisoning. My wife and I drove out to a beautiful B&B by a river in a tourist town last month for our 29th wedding anniversary. The first evening was all fun and romance--until I came down with food poisoning the next morning which lasted into the night and was somewhat abated by the next day when we left. The suite itself remained romantic and we vow to take another crack at it for our 30th wedding anniversary next year. I might even have ingested the little nasty at a restaurant in town before we left for our weekend. Since my wife is a licensed home daycare provider and provides up to four meals a day for 6-12 kids at a time, she--and I--have completed a food safety class and each have food handler's licenses. So I know all the food safety concepts and remember most of them; my wife however knows and remembers all of them.

I agree about the quality of supermarket ground beef. It turns brown much sooner than it did years ago. You also never know if the meat department replaced old sell by dates on the packages with newer ones to make it appear the meat was fresher--I've seen a few stories on that. About 2-3 years ago I bought a fantastic meat grinder online because the grinder attachment to my wife's stand mixer wasn't cutting it. The most exotic I've gotten has been grinding boneless beef chuck roast and boneless pork shoulder (or boneless country ribs) and blending them together for burger meat. Next time I'm going to use brisket instead of chuck. Ground bacon? I've mixed in bacon bits and grated cheddar into burger meat for years but ground bacon is an idea. Do you partially freeze the bacon slices before running them through the grinder? Do you use bacon or whole pork belly? Yeah, I love the creativity with burgers but in my case, I rarely grind because it's time consuming and it's much quicker and less messy to just take out some supermarket ground beef and go to town. We're short on time in our house but still, every time I've ground my own burger or meatball mix the taste, texture, and tenderness have been superior to anything I bought at the store.

I agree about TV chefs and it's also why I think all those cooking contest shows are shams. Taste is highly subjective so submitting dishes to a panel of judges with different palates is meaningless, just like one food critic may pan a restaurant while another might praise it. Same thing with judging wines for medal competitions: meaningless except for marketing bragging rights for the winning wines. We've bought a few celebrity chef cookbooks but we got most of our recipes from specialty magazines and, for me, smoker and grilling cookbooks. I'm not the kind of guy who can create recipes on the fly but I do know how to adapt and tweak and think "what if I add this?" My family aren't big hot dog/sausage fans so for the times when they are I cook them either broil them or cook them on a grill pan or in my Panini press. For fajitas--darn right, nothing like making fajitas from chargrilled skirt or flank steak.

I have to say that I enjoy using my MES but I love my Weber kettle grill. There's something satisfyingly primal about grilling meat, fish, and vegies/fruit over charcoal. I know the Weber far better than I do the MES and grilling is more hands-on than smoking. It's also easier to clean out my grill than clean out the smoker. I also like to toss wood chips over the coals for a shot of wood smoke to chicken and pizza. It's been an abnormally dry and hot summer in WA state this year so I'm grilling more now than I have during any past summer. This weekend I'm breaking out the smoker since no rain is in sight through next week.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 25, 2014)

Ricksta,

To answer a couple of your questions:

If that instructor really said Pellicle clocks smoke, he should go back to school. Pellicle doesn't block smoke---It helps smoke to adhere. I get it either by putting it in front of fans, or putting it in the fridge overnight, uncovered, and then put it in the smoker without smoke, @ low heat for an hour or so.

I see no problem with letting a steak set out, but I personally don't because I want the outside charred, and the inside pink (Med--Rare). Letting it sit out helps get the inside to cook more. Some people even partially freeze their steaks to get this effect.

I wouldn't let any large low & slow non-cured item sit out for any amount of time, & I wouldn't let ground meat sit out either.

Hope this helps,

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> I would have to question the teachers knowledge. Politely of course.
> 
> Pellicle is good, its like sticky glue to get that smoke to stick upon. It is a yellowish tacky substance that forms from the slight dehydration of fat carrying skins and meats. Mr. Todd, aka Woodcutter taught me about the importance of pellicle. Who says old dogs can't learn? But he forms his with 30 mins of applied fan. After trying his way I bought cheap fan to use (it was like 10.00 at Newegg on sale). I normally try to allow fowl to set in the reefer for 24 hours uncovered to dry the skin and that will normally do it, but as with loins, that fan works wonders.
> 
> ...


prep/cooking
Question away because I now am. Glad it was my daughter who paid for the class and not me. However some of the prep/cooking techniques we were shown were worth taking the course for. He said other things that I didn't agree with, some sexist and political stuff. He also thought that Foster Farms was being victimized by the USDA just for being a large corporation. He claimed that all chicken contains the salmonella bacteria and the people who got food poisoning just failed to cook their chicken to a safe temp. I silently questioned that assumption when he said it, but it was his class and he felt he could say whatever he wanted.

Another new thing I just learned from you: Todd's nick is Woodcutter. I've never seen him post under that. In fact, I rarely see him post at all here and it's always under his name when I see it.

Again, I see I was wrong about rubs getting deep down inside the meat (this is a bad morning for my memory).  They don't which is why the meat muscle is injected flavored liquid before cooking.

I've just begun experimenting with injections, but the one time my wife and I brined a turkey we didn't like the result much at all. The BBQ instructor claimed, though, that the brine enables you to brine a bird for a few days without refrigeration because bacteria can't grow in a saline environment and salt has been used for that purpose to cure and safely store meat for thousands of years. The latter is definitely true but I'm not sure about brining liquid killing almost all bacteria resident in a bird carcass.

I love charring the fat on the outside of a steak. if it renders enough I will eat it--cholesterol be damned! As for grilling meat partially frozen in the center, I've read (outside of the BBQ class that could meat can inhibit the chemical reactions inside of smoking or grilling meats which help break down the meat fibers which is how meat becomes tender. Cooking meat that is too cold can result in a tougher and less flavorful product. Don't have on hand where I read it but it was recent. I think I saw it when I was researching smoking and grilling meat techniques.

And I haven't seen any misspellings--and I'm a spelling/grammar geek.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

WaywardSwede said:


> It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.


The wife and I both let leftover cooked food cool down to the temp where it's safe to put it in storage containers and place in the fridge.


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## waywardswede (Jul 25, 2014)

> The BBQ instructor claimed, though, that the brine enables you to *brine a bird for a few days without refrigeration* because bacteria can't grow in a saline environment and salt has been used for that purpose to cure and safely store meat for thousands of years


Oh, man, don't do this.  I brine poultry all the time, but always keep the temperature between 36° and 40° F.  Theoretically he may be right, but there is no way I would try this myself, or recommend to anyone else to try it.  Eating a medium-rare steak is one thing, eating a turkey that's been stewing in room temperature salt water for 2 days is a whole new level of crazy.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Ricksta,
> 
> To answer a couple of your questions:
> 
> ...


As I wrote in another response, there were a few things he said I inwardly questioned or disagreed with. But the guys got like 6 schools (units in industrial parks) scattered around 3-4 states and earns a nice living off it. He and his paid instructors all use his no smoke absorption after 3 hours guideline. But you know? He talked about competing against Myron Mixon and beating him once--once--so maybe that says something about his BBQ skill level and knowledge.

As I wrote to Foamheart, I read somewhere that sticking cold meat on a grill can prevent the meat fibers from fully breaking down so they may not come out as tender as if you'd let them sit out for a bit before cooking. I can find those references if you like. I'm still at the point where I've learned a lot but there's a lot I haven't personally learned so al I can go by is what I read until I learn it by doing. but I admit, getting that charred outside/med rare inside for steaks has been hard for me to get on my charcoal grill. I just bought a thermocoupler instant read therm so I can more easily track the IT.

Fully agree about the large cuts to be used for smoking and slow cooking in general. We take them out, season them right away, brown the outsides if the recipe calls for it, and then we stick it in whatever slow cooker appliance we're using. I do let ground beef sit out for the reason I wrote above grilling cold meat. My wife is fond of telling me how her mother broke most food safety rules--letting mayo or cooked deviled eggs sit out for hours, etc.,--in her kitchen when my wife was growing up because the rules hadn't been written yet. Almost no cases of food poisoning in their house and nobody died. I think what saved them was the fact the whole family came primarily from strong Irish/German stock.


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## foamheart (Jul 25, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> The wife and I both let leftover cooked food cool down to the temp where it's safe to put it in storage containers and place in the fridge.


Me too, actually I let mine cool and redistribute before eating. Its much better tasting without the burnt tongue. Also when freezing I always wait now to bag and tag because I want all the condensate out.

II would like to see this guys creditials, Methinks he needs a re-certification.

Well it is back to the kitchen .... jambalaya for supper and coconut cream meringue pie for desert!


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

WaywardSwede said:


> Oh, man, don't do this.  I brine poultry all the time, but always keep the temperature between 36° and 40° F.  Theoretically he may be right, but there is no way I would try this myself, or recommend to anyone else to try it.  Eating a medium-rare steak is one thing, eating a turkey that's been stewing in room temperature salt water for 2 days is a whole new level of crazy.


You've really got me laughing now. It's clear to me from the responses here the guy was wrong about the limited time for smoke absorption and now this. It sounded plausible at the time but in retrospect  if he was right you'd see this in every turkey brining article, which you don't.

He also claimed you could take cheap vodka or tequila and pour it through a Brita filter or something 2-3 times and you'd wind up with a taste and smoothness identical to the expensive stuff. I think that there's a bit more involved in high end hard liquor producing than just filtering.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> Me too, actually I let mine cool and redistribute before eating. Its much better tasting without the burnt tongue. Also when freezing I always wait now to bag and tag because I want all the condensate out.
> 
> II would like to see this guys creditials, Methinks he needs a re-certification.
> 
> Well it is back to the kitchen .... jambalaya for supper and coconut cream meringue pie for desert!


Here ya go, Foamheart.

"Stu McMullen
[h3]Head Honcho[/h3]
While most people were starting a family and raising kids Stu spent his weekends traveling around the country visiting the different BBQ and Grilling contests that take place in such cities as St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, and Greenwood SC. Not satisfied with just being part of the crowd, he would actually meet up with different BBQ teams from around the country and go to work in their booth learning some of their secrets and getting lots dish washing practice.

To help expand his knowledge of the BBQ and Grilling world Stu also spend time traveling to different countries to learn what they do to make the BBQ and Grilling experience a good one. In addition to his participation around the country at some of the more famous BBQ and Grilling cook off sites Stu has also taken many classes from the different cooking schools including our own Western Culinary Institute. With years of practice and lots of knowledge Stu is the perfect one to help you learn how to master your BBQ or Grill.

As a frequent traveler to Asia don’t let him get away without showing you some of the ways to bring the wonderful BBQ flavor of Asia home to the northwest and just watch out … as you may not wish to get him started on his experience at the different chili cook offs. He does have few recipes for great chili."

Now, back to my comments. I think he said he's been teaching versions of this class for 20-30 years, I think from the late 80s. He claimed to have beaten Myron Mixon in one category in one competition but was beaten the other 2-3 times he competed against Mixon. The first 20 mins. or so of his class was his lecturing on how to make cheap tequila and vodka taste like the high end stuff by running it through a Brita filter about 3 times. I thought that it was odd to spend so much of the first hour on that; I also didn't believe him. What I took away from the class was a fun time, taking part in or witnessing cooking with a BGE, a Traeger, the Char-Broil Big Easy, and I learned some new techniques and recipes. There was some actual legitimate knowledge imparted there.

If we're not going to eat cooked meats for awhile, I let them cool and then vacuum seal the leftovers--love my Food Saver!--before freezing them.

I'd love to see pics of your kitchen because anyone who can whip out jambalaya and coconut cream meringue pie for the same meal is a home cook to admire. I've done a simplified slow cooker jambalaya but if I could cook an authentic version only my son might both eat and enjoy it. The wife doesn't like most seafood (especially shellfish and crustaceans) and she prefers her sausage mild, not hot.


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## foamheart (Jul 25, 2014)

daRicksta said:


> He also claimed you could take cheap vodka or tequila and pour it through a Brita filter or something 2-3 times and you'd wind up with a taste and smoothness identical to the expensive stuff. I think that there's a bit more involved in high end hard liquor producing than just filtering.


You mean there is a digfference between the good and the cheap vodka? people actually would say, "Wow thats the good vodka"? I love the vodka comercial where the girl says, " but this vodka was made from potatoes that look like famous people's heads" or "this one is filtered thru rare meotorites fallen from the heavens" so its poured over rocks. LOL Sorry I am sure someone will take offense and talk about their Grey Goose.  I just don't know a single person who sits down and sips vodka on the rocks.

They used to run Gilley torpedo juice thru bread before the Navy changed to Pink Lady because the electrican's couldn't take it. They couldn't hold there Gilley. Or Aqua Vella. LOL 

Making happy juice taste good is very hard.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/143459/uncle-goldies-fruit-liqueur

I am going to get off the man;s case, it maybe he knew what he was talking about. I normally don't doubt abothers word, although I am a firm believer in what Ben Franklin said about believe nothing you hera and only half that you see.


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> You mean there is a digfference between the good and the cheap vodka? people actually would say, "Wow thats the good vodka"? I love the vodka comercial where the girl says, " but this vodka was made from potatoes that look like famous people's heads" or "this one is filtered thru rare meotorites fallen from the heavens" so its poured over rocks. LOL Sorry I am sure someone will take offense and talk about their Grey Goose.  I just don't know a single person who sits down and sips vodka on the rocks.
> 
> They used to run Gilley torpedo juice thru bread before the Navy changed to Pink Lady because the electrican's couldn't take it. They couldn't hold there Gilley. Or Aqua Vella. LOL
> 
> ...


I know Grey Goose (have never tried it since I'm not a vodka guy) but not Gilley torpedo juice or Pink Lady or Aqua Vella, not having been in any of the Armed Services. I should Google all three but I'm about to go offline. The text of your response was sent to my Hotmail. I forwarded it to my home email just for the link to your thread where you show how to make those fruit liqueurs just for future reference. If it's hard to make it taste good well, I have enough to do to make my _food_  taste good. The wife and I cook just about every meal we serve from scratch--that's breakfast and dinner--just about 7 days a week. We make up our weekly menus in advance by choosing which recipes to cook and who will cook them (unless we team prep) and then food shop accordingly.

If you had met the guy, Foamheart, you'd have seen he's got a squashproof case. I think he's been making a living from the classes too long to be bothered by critics or if he's giving out bad info. I've put the guy in perspective. His knowledge base is faulty but I still got some good stuff from the class and it was tons of fun being surrounded by about 40 other guys and gals who loved BBQing and grilling just like I do. Yeah, he didn't get everything right but that's what these forums are for, to share real life experience, advice, and opinions.

Part of the benefit I derived from the class was seeing a Big Green Egg in action because I don't know anyone near me who owns one and I sure won't ever be buying one because of the expense and because it wouldn't fit into my style of BBQ and grilling. I've seen Traeger's on display at Costco and heard a bit of a salesguy's spiel, but I got to cook on one and check it out which confirmed I don't want one of those, either. I'm perfectly content with my Weber kettle charcoal grill and my MES.


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## migraine (Jul 25, 2014)

I have one setup like you mentioned and I drilled a 3" dia hole in the top at the left, back corner. 3" 90 degree elbow turned straight(7-8" high ).  I added a few 1/2" dia. holes underneath the chip tray/pellet tray area.

I found that the lack of ventilation(in and out) left too much moisture in the smoke, making the bitter//acidic taste, specially on lower temp smokes.

I also put a metal tray under the pellet tray to keep away excessive heat from the element.  If not, the pellets will burn too fast and not burn completely, leaving tiny black charcoal pellets.

Welcome to the learning curve...

-Brian


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