# Issue with Snack Stick Casings



## mkriet (Dec 4, 2016)

I've made a couple batches of snack sticks and I've noticed one issue with the casings.   After I get done cooking and everything and go to eat them,  it's like the casing isnt sticking to the meat, and will come loose.   

Has anyone else had this issue?  I'm going to be making some next weekend and would like to figure out this issue before then.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Dec 4, 2016)

What type of casing? What type of meat? What's your recipe? Are you water bathing to finish? Are you drying the sticks prior to smoking?

We need more info man!


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## JckDanls 07 (Dec 4, 2016)

yup ... complete process will help us more...


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## mkriet (Dec 4, 2016)

Sorry,  I know better.   

Collagen casings,  beef.  I think the recipe I used was called Greg's Snack Sticks.  I did water bath,  and I let dry for an hour or so after,  then put in brown paper bag in the fridge for a day before packaging.


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## mkriet (Dec 4, 2016)

I almost wonder if I didn't mix the meat enough.  I watched some videos today that show mixing until the meat is super sticky.   

Also wondering if an extra binder like nfdm would help.   I did not use that in the past.


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## JckDanls 07 (Dec 4, 2016)

yes...  when mixing meat..  I always say....  "mix until your tired of mixing...  and then mix some more..  meat should be REALLY STICKY... so much so it's hard to clean your hands off ...   I also use NFPM...  but only at half the recommended dose...  I use half a cup per 5 lbs ...


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## bmudd14474 (Dec 4, 2016)

What temp did you smoke them at?


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## daveomak (Dec 4, 2016)

Yep... Sticky will help.....













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__ daveomak
__ Nov 24, 2016


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## dirtsailor2003 (Dec 4, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Yep... Sticky will help.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well if you talk to LEM customer service, you'd need to add 5 gallons of water to that glob in your hand so it will go through the stuffer...


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## dward51 (Dec 4, 2016)

It happens.

Also if the casings are not fresh, they are prone to not sticking to the finished product.  I have some I know are old and I am still using them.  I just plan on pealing the casings off after the stick are done.  Other than that I see no point in tossing them.  I seem to recall one way to check for freshness of collagen casings is to rub them on a sheet of paper. If it leaves a slightly oily mark, they are still good.  If it does not, they will be prone to not sticking to the meat.

And Dave O. is absolutely right. Mix until you think it's over mixed (but be careful if using ECA as you don't want to break the capsules open).


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## dirtsailor2003 (Dec 4, 2016)

[quote name="JckDanls 07" url="/t/255180/issue-with-snack-stick-casings]  I also use NFPM....[/quote]

Naturally formed particulate matter? :)


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## BGKYSmoker (Dec 5, 2016)

Keep your collagen casings in the fridge. I open the bag a day before stuffing to condition them.


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## mkriet (Dec 5, 2016)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> Naturally formed particulate matter? :)



Yeah,  I meant  NFDM lol.   

I've been smoking at 130 no smoke for an hour,  then bumping up ten degrees every hour till I get to 180.  

I will throw the casings in the fridge, but when I've used them in the past I can feel the oil on my fingers,  so I think they are okay.   

I think I'll try mixing them better and see if that works.  I know I've seen the meat mixers which look pretty handy,  but are kinda expensive.   Does anyone use a kitchen aid mixer to mix the meat? Thinking that might be easier than hand mixing,  and I have one of those. 

Also, is the water bath a requirement?  I'm wondering if letting them hang outside in the cold would be fine?  Thinking the water seems to soften the casings, and give it less"snap".

Thanks for the feedback so far.


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## daveomak (Dec 5, 2016)

Think about the highest smoker temp of 160..    prevents fat out...  sticks stay moist....  

Below is a pasteurization table for non intact meat....   If you get the IT of the sticks to 140, and hold it there for 9 minutes or longer, they are safe to eat according to the chart....  

What I do is hold the sticks at 140 for an hour or so, to allow for any bad thermometer readings, cool spots inside the smoker.. etc... 

FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks April 2009

Temp °F / Time for 5.0 log Reduction

Unit Time

130..........86 min.

131 ..........69 min.

132......... 55 min.

133.......... 44 min.

134.......... 35 min.

135.......... 28 min.

136 ..........22 min.

137 ..........18 min.

138 ..........14 min.

139.......... 11 min.

140 ...........9 min.

141........... 7 min.

142 ...........6 min.

143 ...........5 min.

144 ...........4 min.

145 ...........3 min.

146 .........130 sec.

147......... 103 sec.

148 ...........82 sec.

149 ...........65 sec.

150........... 52 sec.

151........... 41 sec.

152........... 33 sec.

153 ...........26 sec.

154 ...........21 sec.

155 ...........17 sec.

156 ...........14 sec.

157 ...........11 sec.

158 .............0 sec.

159 .............0 sec.

160 .............0 sec.

The required lethalities are achieved instantly when the internal temperature of a cooked meat product reaches 158 °F or above. Humidity must be considered when using this Time/Temperature table.

This Time/Temperature table is based on Thermal Death Curve for Salmonella in Beef Emulsions in tubes (Derived from Goodfellow & Brown1, 1978) Regulatory Curve obtained from Jerry Carosella, Deputy Director, Microbiology Division, Science and Technology. All times that were a fraction of a minute or second was rounded up to the next whole number (e.g., 16.2 seconds for 155 °F was round up to 17 seconds).

________________________ 1. Goodfellow, S. J. and W. L. Brown. 1978. Fate of Salmonella Inoculated into Beef for Cooking. Journal of Food Protection. 41:598-605.


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## mkriet (Dec 5, 2016)

So what you're saying is I can cook to an IT of 140 and hold for an hour, rather than getting the meat all the way up to 158?  

I'm not planning to keep these out on the counter or anything, I would be keeping them in the freezer until I pull them out to eat them, and they would keep in the fridge.  Let me know your thoughts.  I really appreciate all the feedback from all you experts.   I really enjoy doing this stuff, but I'm still fairly new to making sausage/snack sticks.  There is always time to learn more.


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## jhamm (Dec 5, 2016)

Great thread thanks guys. I am going to be taking a swing at snack sticks as soon as we get out of school for the holiday break.(I am a teacher) What is an average batch. I make sausage in 25 pound batches. that seems like it would be a whole lot of snack sticks? also any good recipes you might want to share?


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## mkriet (Dec 5, 2016)

I've made 5 pound batches in the past, but I'm ramping up production this time.  I'm thinking I will be doing about 10 pounds of snack sticks, and about 15 pounds of summer sausage this weekend.  

I did 5 pounds last time, and that made about 50 6 inch long snack sticks.  Sounds like a lot, but when you start giving stuff away as gifts, or taking to parties, its not as much as you think.  I made a batch about 3 weeks ago, and its about gone. 

As far as recipes, I'm still trying out different ones.  I will be using LEM snack sticks this week using the LEM seasoning, and plan to add some extra crushed red pepper and cayenne to kick it up a notch.   They have good flavor, just not as hot as I would like.


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## daveomak (Dec 6, 2016)

mkriet said:


> So what you're saying is I can cook to an IT of 140 and hold for an hour, rather than getting the meat all the way up to 158?
> 
> I'm not planning to keep these out on the counter or anything, I would be keeping them in the freezer until I pull them out to eat them, and they would keep in the fridge.  Let me know your thoughts.  I really appreciate all the feedback from all you experts.   I really enjoy doing this stuff, but I'm still fairly new to making sausage/snack sticks.  There is always time to learn more.


Pasteurizing is a product of TIME & TEMPERATURE...   Meat brought up to the recommended temp of 158, will see a (For example, a "5-log reduction" means lowering the number of microorganisms by 100,000-fold, that is, if a surface has 100,000 pathogenic microbes on it, a 5-log reduction would reduce the number of microorganisms to one. )

Meat cooked at 135 deg. F and held for 28 minutes will see the same reduction in pathogenic microbes as meat raised to 158 deg. F.....

Using this chart, or even extending the times recommended for personal preference, will insure safe to eat product without overcooking or having a "fat out" of your links... meat will be moister etc. ...  

If you trust the meat is safe to eat at 158, you can trust it will be safe following the chart if your temp gauges and thermometers and timers are accurate...


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## mkriet (Dec 6, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Pasteurizing is a product of TIME & TEMPERATURE...   Meat brought up to the recommended temp of 158, will see a (For example, a "5-log reduction" means lowering the number of microorganisms by 100,000-fold, that is, if a surface has 100,000 pathogenic microbes on it, a 5-log reduction would reduce the number of microorganisms to one. )
> Meat cooked at 135 deg. F and held for 28 minutes will see the same reduction in pathogenic microbes as meat raised to 158 deg. F.....
> Using this chart, or even extending the times recommended for personal preference, will insure safe to eat product without overcooking or having a "fat out" of your links... meat will be moister etc. ...
> If you trust the meat is safe to eat at 158, you can trust it will be safe following the chart if your temp gauges and thermometers and timers are accurate...



Thank you Dave.  I just wanted to confirm.   I want to make sure I don't get anyone sick.


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## BGKYSmoker (Dec 6, 2016)

Not rocket science here.

You can pull the sticks at 150* rack them and it will IT to 152 on its own. (skip the cold water)

Your results may vary from mine.


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## mkriet (Dec 22, 2016)

dward51 said:


> It happens.
> 
> Also if the casings are not fresh, they are prone to not sticking to the finished product.  I have some I know are old and I am still using them.  I just plan on pealing the casings off after the stick are done.  Other than that I see no point in tossing them.  I seem to recall one way to check for freshness of collagen casings is to rub them on a sheet of paper. If it leaves a slightly oily mark, they are still good.  If it does not, they will be prone to not sticking to the meat.
> 
> And Dave O. is absolutely right. Mix until you think it's over mixed (but be careful if using ECA as you don't want to break the capsules open).



So I think I figured out what is causing my issue.   When I pulled my last batch of snack sticks the casings were pretty stiff/hard.  Like they were dried out from the cooking process.  I let them sit in the fridge for a day before packaging and freezing, and the casings softened to what I would call normal.   

Here is where the problem comes in.  When I pull a pack out to thaw it sends like the casings really soften and stay to pull away from the meat.  This gets worse the longer I let a pack sit in the fridge after opening.

Now that I think I know what is causing it,  what the hell do I do about it?


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## dward51 (Dec 23, 2016)

Well, if you are a frugal old bastard like I am, I would use them and then just peal the loose casings off the sticks before cutting them to final length for storage or use.  I don't know if letting them sit and air dry a little before use would help.  It sounds like they have become over moistened in the fridge and packing for freezing (or did they get freezer burn?).

Other than try to make it work, you can replace them with new.....


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## timstalltaletav (Dec 23, 2016)

dward51 said:


> Well, if you are a frugal old bastard like I am, I would use them and then just peal the loose casings off the sticks before cutting them to final length for storage or use.  I don't know if letting them sit and air dry a little before use would help.  It sounds like they have become over moistened in the fridge and packing for freezing (or did they get freezer burn?).
> 
> Other than try to make it work, you can replace them with new.....



I've been removing the casings after smoking as well.  I don't know if I got old casings or what but they just aren't sticking.  When the meat is mixed well and smoked the sticks are plenty firm enough to not need casings.


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## boykjo (Dec 25, 2016)

mkriet said:


> dward51 said:
> 
> 
> > It happens.
> ...



You can dehydrate them or use natural sheeps instead of collogen. 

Boykjo


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## daveomak (Dec 25, 2016)

mkriet said:


> >
> 
> 
> So I think I figured out what is causing my issue. When I pulled my last batch of snack sticks the casings were pretty stiff/hard. Like they were dried out from the cooking process. I let them sit in the fridge for a day before packaging and freezing, and the casings softened to what I would call normal.
> ...


  Think about this....  maybe there was too much moisture in the meat and it's continuing to dehydrate in the refer, pulling away from the casing...   I didn't read all the posts so put up with me here...   I've started using AmesPhos and it's discontinued.....  this is the same stuff...  . 500g, (1.1lb), 100% Pure Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Food Grade, KOSHER ...


It seems to hold onto moisture really well....  one of our members made a meat loaf and added it to it...   said it was the moistest meat loaf he ever made...   It's fairly inexpensive to use, especially if it makes great stix....   I use it in sausage at 0.4% the weight of the meat...  
 

One more thing, do you cool the stix after smoking or let them cool slowly and naturally...   If they cool slowly, the casing shrinks with the meat..   here's my stix.....













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__ daveomak
__ Dec 25, 2016


















21ffad72_StringKnotsoncasings.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Dec 25, 2016





...













DSCF2204.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Dec 25, 2016






These sticks were in the smoker for about 24 hours at 145-150 ish....    Notice the fat didn't melt... the sticks are moist...

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/230920/beef-sticks-21mm-with-leggs-116-money-shot

The edible collagen casings were from Walton's...  They seem to be a high quality casing...  not all casings are the same...  and they were packaged in an air tight tube and I resealed what was left using the heat bar on the vacuum sealer....

https://www.waltonsinc.com/21mm-smoke-collagen-casings


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## mkriet (Dec 25, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Think about this....  maybe there was too much moisture in the meat and it's continuing to dehydrate in the refer, pulling away from the casing...   I didn't read all the posts so put up with me here...   I've started using AmesPhos and it's discontinued.....  this is the same stuff...  . 500g, (1.1lb), 100% Pure Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Food Grade, KOSHER ...
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B0147LR9MY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=37309901GJVQE&coliid=I28CCRSPGSIH2K
> It seems to hold onto moisture really well....  one of our members made a meat loaf and added it to it...   said it was the moistest meat loaf he ever made...   It's fairly inexpensive to use, especially if it makes great stix....   I use it in sausage at 0.4% the weight of the meat...
> 
> ...



Thanks Dave.  I did let these cool slowly.  I bought some natural sheep casings that I'm going to try this weekend.   I've only used LEM collagen casings so far.   I might have to try collagen from elsewhere.


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## dward51 (Dec 25, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> I've started using AmesPhos and it's discontinued.....  this is the same stuff...  . 500g, (1.1lb), 100% Pure Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Food Grade, KOSHER ...
> 
> 
> It seems to hold onto moisture really well....  one of our members made a meat loaf and added it to it...   said it was the moistest meat loaf he ever made...   It's fairly inexpensive to use, especially if it makes great stix....   I use it in sausage at 0.4% the weight of the meat...


AmesPhos and other sausage making phosphates do work.  I've been using Butcher & Packer #414 "special meat binder" which is basically their version of AmesPhos (and it is less expensive).  Since it looks like AmesPhos is being discontinued, that would be a good alternative which was about 1/2 the price of AmesPhos.  I generally use a little less than B&P's recommended amount when is 2 ounce per 25 pounds of meat (or 2.27 grams per pound).  I use around 1.5 to 2 grams per pound and have had very good results.  I have been told by others wiser than I (NEPAS), not to overdo the phosphates as too much will negatively affect the final product. I pay attention to what he says. 

Also I have had very good results with B&P #414 in meatloaf and most recently meatballs.  Makes for a moist and less crumbly product.  You know what I'm talking about, everyone has had a meatloaf that did not hold together well (basically had no binders added and was not made by a sausage making fanatic).  I'm going try it in hamburgers next time I grind my own.  I've actually got a 3.5 pound batch of "The Dude's meatballs" in the oven now that have B&P #414 added (2nd batch today - it's a holiday staple around here).  So I may be the person DaveO was talking about above.  I'm a believer in phosphates in ground meat for sure.


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## mkriet (Dec 29, 2016)

I got it,  I got it!!!! I figured it out!!!  Thanks to Boykjo's recent post I figured it out.   He mentioned he leaves his sticks in a paper sack in the fridge for a week before packaging.   

I only left mine in for like a day before packaging. 

I pulled a pack of sticks out of the freezer, cut the bag open and threw them in the paper bag, and into the fridge.  Came home after work to grind meat for my creations this weekend,  and thought, "I need a snack stick while making snack sticks".  I pulled one out and the casing was much better.   I'm sure they would've got better with a couple more days, but I was hungry and ate dang near the whole bag.  So glad I figured this out.   I almost lost hope on the snack sticks.  Now I wouldn't be afraid to make the whole dang batch into snack sticks this weekend.


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## smokeymose (Dec 29, 2016)

jhamm said:


> Great thread thanks guys. I am going to be taking a swing at snack sticks as soon as we get out of school for the holiday break.(I am a teacher) What is an average batch. I make sausage in 25 pound batches. that seems like it would be a whole lot of snack sticks? also any good recipes you might want to share?


Yes, that would be a lot of snack sticks. I only do 5# batches.
I like Big Casino's beef stick recipe (do a search here). It's not for the faint hearted, though....

Dan


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## more smoke (Apr 1, 2017)

I have had the same issue. I STUFFED and then placed them in the fridge over night....that was my issue. Now I mix,then stuff and smoke the following day. Casing are much better this way IMO..so far so good.


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