# brisket injection



## kanadan

anyone have a good brisket injection recipe. Im going to be competing in my first comp. and I still cant find an injection im happy with. Any recipes you guys like?


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## meateater

Beef Broth, that's what I use anyways. :)


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## reichl

I really like this injection and it doesn't leave streaks in the meat.

2 Cups beef broth
1/4 cup worcestershire
1tsp onion powder
1 tsp garlic powder
1/2 tsp cayenne


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## ronp

Beef broth for sure as a base, then add whatever you want. Keep it simple so you are only enhancing the meat and not overpowering it.


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## caveman

Yea.  Like Ronp said.  I use the broth for the base.  If I feel adventurous, I add garlic powder & maybe l some Worcestershire but just enough for flavor; not to overpower.  Great luck in the comp.


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## triplebq

Butcher's is champion injection


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## rbranstner

I really like using the following. 
Beef Broth
V8 
Worcestershire
Some of your rub.

I can't remember the amounts off the top of my head. I use this on my brisket and chuckies.


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## mballi3011

Beef broth is a good base for any combination you can think of. Now just let your imagination run wild and go for it but a word to the wise (an I'm not) write down so you will remember it if it turns out really good. Need I say more.....


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## bbqhead

also butcherbbq.com has a new brisket product called PRIME DUST, he brought me some last weekend and just tasting it, I can tell its going to be very good combined with his injection.


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## conundrum54

I will be doing my second brisket this weekend and was thinking about injecting it with Reichl's recipe above.  But I am unsure if I should inject it the night before and let it sit over night in the fridge with the rub on it, or put on my rub and let it sit over night then inject it before it goes in the smoker.


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## herkysprings

I would inject first. I'm not sure about anyone else but I find brisket injections to be a bit messy, and require a lot of handling.


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## conundrum54

Messy to the point of not worth the effort for the outcome?


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## SmokinAl

Beef broth, garlic powder, onion powder, pepper. It is worth the effort!


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## matt2tle

Probably a silly question....but with the beef broth based injections, do you heat it all up as you're mixing it before injection or just mix it up as is and then inject?  Thanks much.


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## damon555

I've been using beef broth and worcestershire powder with fantastic results. The sauce works if you don't have the powder. This is the perfect mix of flavor and you don't need to add any salt.


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## redneck69

mix up some beef broth and the dry rub that you use on the brisket....helps keep a uniform flavor inside and outside the meat


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## kc5tpy

Hello.  I see no reason to inject a good brisket but just remember that if you inject that brisket the 40-140-4 rule comes into effect.  The brisket must go from 40 degrees to an IT of 140 within 4 hours for food safety.  Good luck.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## s2k9k

KC5TPY said:


> Hello.  I see no reason to inject a good brisket but just remember that if you inject that brisket the 40-140-4 rule comes into effect.  The brisket must go from 40 degrees to an IT of 140 within 4 hours for food safety.  Good luck.  Keep Smokin!
> Danny



:yeahthat:
And anytime I have used an injection I made sure it was at the same temp or lower of the meat I was injecting, I wouldn't like the thought of an injection to start warming the meat up from the inside after I just stuck a needle deep inside of it, That sounds like serious trouble to me!


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## kc5tpy

Thanks for helping out Dave.  I sometimes forget ALL ins and outs of food safety so I call on the moderators when I am not quite certain.  The last thing we want is for our members or friends and family to have a bad smoking experience.  We REALLY appreciate what you unsung folks do for us.  Many thanks.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## darrin weimert

Any one ever try kitchen bouquet in their broth or gravy master? And are you all partial to mesquite wood or what for smoking brisket?


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## darrin weimert

I would think that you would be okay if cooked right away if you inject it room temp mixture, also should you let your brisket get to room temp before you cook it like i do other beef cuts??


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## daveomak

Darrin Weimert said:


> I would think that you would be okay if cooked right away *if you inject it room temp mixture, also should you let your brisket get to room temp before you cook it like i do other beef cuts?? *


Darrin, evening....  Any whole, intact meat muscle that has been injected, should be injected at 40 deg or lower.... and it needs to go on the heat ASAP so it can get to an internal temp of 140 within 4 hours.... If you have the smoker fired up to temp, I suppose you can inject a hot marinade, brine... that would help get the IT up faster.... the 4 hour 40-140 still applies.... Heat the brine, marinade up to 185 first to kill all the bad stuff......     Unless you can insure the injection process and injection liquid was sterile.... so no bacteria was injected with it.....    Non whole muscle whether injected or not needs this "heat to 140 within 4 hours" for food safety...  "meat loaf, boned and tied roast, meat glued turkey breast, meat glued fancy steak wrapped in bacon" all are examples of non intact muscles.....

I think the "bring to room temp" is only for a steak going on the grill... don't know for sure...  That is a scary rule, as far as food safety is concerned.....  

Dave


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## s2k9k

I will never understand the "let it sit out for 2-3 hours to come up to room temp so it cooks faster", I think it will cook a lot faster on a 225* smoker than a 70* counter!


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## bloodbath

Cover the brisket with plastic wrap, and poke the injector through the plastic wrap.  No mess at all


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## turnandburn

S2K9K said:


> I will never understand the "let it sit out for 2-3 hours to come up to room temp so it cooks faster", I think it will cook a lot faster on a 225* smoker than a 70* counter!


i was watching an old re-run of pitmasters and one of the guys and one girl on there was saying they pull their brisket out and let it get to room temp, as to help with moisture and tenderness because a cold brisket is a leather brisket...im thinking...WTF!!??? moisture and tenderness..??...???? no f##@in' way!!! lol.  ive also seen a few youtube vids where ppl try to explain how to make a real texas brisket...wrong...haha. which also involves letting sit til it reaches room temp, because you dont want the muscle to be that tight or itll be leather. again...wrong! lol.


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## tacswa3

KC5TPY said:


> Hello.  I see no reason to inject a good brisket but just remember that if you inject that brisket the 40-140-4 rule comes into effect.  The brisket must go from 40 degrees to an IT of 140 within 4 hours for food safety.  Good luck.  Keep Smokin!
> 
> Danny


I don't understand this logic? Its all being cooked regardless, why does it have to be 4 hours to 140*?


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## daveomak

Tacswa3 said:


> *I don't understand this logic? Its all being cooked regardless, why does it have to be 4 hours to 140*?*


Tac....  evening....   A whole muscle is considered "sterile" on the inside..... Therefor, a long slow cook is permissible because there are no pathogens to grow which can kill you.....

When you inject, you inject bacteria and pathogens.....  they grow during the temp zone of 40-140 and especially fast in a moist environment.... 

4 hours  to get to 140 is a "rule" (not really) a "guideline" based on bacterial growth in the lab at different times, temps etc for different bacteria and pathogens......

Aren't you glad you stopped in here...  Great place to learn stuff...  Food Safety included....   We want you to be a great cook and live to tell about it......     

 Dave


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## tacswa3

Dave - Thanks for the explanation and it does make sense. So is there any harm in injecting meat the night before a smoke? For example, I just injected a pork shoulder and it will be in the fridge for 24 hours before it hits the smoker. So it will be quite some time before I can get it to 140*


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## daveomak

Kept it in the fridge it will be OK......  Preheat the smoker to 225 ish or higher before removing the meat from the refer...  and take pics for us to see..   

Dave


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## bamafan

Dales low sodium.It turns out very good.


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## screamatamonkey

DaveOmak said:


> Tac....  evening....   A whole muscle is considered "sterile" on the inside..... Therefor, a long slow cook is permissible because there are no pathogens to grow which can kill you.....
> 
> When you inject, you inject bacteria and pathogens.....  they grow during the temp zone of 40-140 and especially fast in a moist environment....
> 
> 4 hours  to get to 140 is a "rule" (not really) a "guideline" based on bacterial growth in the lab at different times, temps etc for different bacteria and pathogens......
> 
> Aren't you glad you stopped in here...  Great place to learn stuff...  Food Safety included....   We want you to be a great cook and live to tell about it......
> 
> Dave


Yes, but isn't that why with non-whole muscle meats, like ground beef for example, the FDA recommends bringing the internal temperature of the meat up to 165F to kill any bacteria that might be present in the meat?  If 165F kills any bacteria present in a piece of meat, I would think that a brisket (which in most cases isn't even considered done until around 200F) would be hot enough for a long enough amount of time to kill any potential bacteria that injecting would introduce.  This would also make letting the meat come up to room temperature on it's own before smoking a non-issue.  Am I missing something here?


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## slingerland

screamatamonkey said:


> If 165F kills any bacteria present in a piece of meat, I would think that a brisket (which in most cases isn't even considered done until around 200F) would be hot enough for a long enough amount of time to kill any potential bacteria that injecting would introduce.  This would also make letting the meat come up to room temperature on it's own before smoking a non-issue.  Am I missing something here?


It's not just the bacteria themselves, remember that some bacteria produce poisonous waste products (like botulin) that can survive the heat.  So while cooking may eventually kill the bacteria, if the cook takes too long the bacteria may make enough waste to sicken the consumer.


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## gary s

On injecting, depends on what part of the country you are from or competing in. Also if its local and you know what flavor people like or the judges are looking for.

Around my neck of the woods, no injecting. I like to keep my brisket simple, Salt and pepper, low and slow. But again depends on where you live. Some like sauce some don't, Sweet, vinegary, mustard, ketchup depends on your taste. If competing ask around try to find out what the judges are looking for. You never know for sure. If you do brisket right it doesn't injecting. My two cents worth

Gary


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## dj32nc

Would you mind explaining why the 40-140 rule applies. Im new to smoking. 

Thanks.


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## floridasteve

I use Canbells condensed broth/stock/consume straight from the can.


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## chef jimmyj

dj32nc said:


> Would you mind explaining why the 40-140 rule applies. Im new to smoking.
> 
> Thanks.


Injecting can introduce surface Bacteria deep into the meat. With really thick roasts like a Pork Butt the interior can stay at the optimal temp for bacteria to multiply, 70 to 100°F, for many hours. The result can be rapid growth. Now this sounds like it is not that big a deal because we will smoke the meat to an IT of 200+ and kill all the bacteria. But some bacteria make Heat Stable Toxins as they multiply. These toxins can make you sick...Under normal circumstances, smoking at a constant temp of 225°F or higher, Pork Butts and a Packer Brisket has no trouble getting the IT above 140 in 4 hours or less so no issue and nothing to worry about. However, if you choose to inject meat, extra care must be taken to guarantee the smoker temp stays above 225 until the IT reaches 140°F or higher...JJ


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## foamheart

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Injecting can introduce surface Bacteria deep into the meat. With really thick roasts like a Pork Butt the interior can stay at the optimal temp for bacteria to multiply, 70 to 100°F, for many hours. The result can be rapid growth. Now this sounds like it is not that big a deal because we will smoke the meat to an IT of 200+ and kill all the bacteria. But some bacteria make Heat Stable Toxins as they multiply. These toxins can make you sick...Under normal circumstances, smoking at a constant temp of 225°F or higher, Pork Butts and a Packer Brisket has no trouble getting the IT above 140 in 4 hours or less so no issue and nothing to worry about. However, if you choose to inject meat, extra care must be taken to guarantee the smoker temp stays above 225 until the IT reaches 140°F or higher...JJ


Ok, looking for clarification. I though I just saw something posted on these boards within the last couple of months that the 4/140 rule no longer applies? That, there was no need to hold off inserting thermometer probes. I can easily believe I misread it because it surprized me when I saw it.


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## chef jimmyj

Therm probes have been up for debate as other than supposition, there is no verifiable proof online of anyone getting sick from inserting a probe in Raw Meat. USDA, FDA and CDC have nothing on it whatsoever. 40 to 140 in 4? It is a cautionary " guideline " accepted by SMF. It mostly applies to uncured Ground meat. As far as Injection, Punching in Garlic, Etc. and Boned Rolled and Tied meat...Are you going to fall over dead if the meat takes 4.25 hours or even 5 hours to get above 140°F? Not likely...BUT...Buy your meat then stop to eat a Pizza on the way home during July in Baton Rouge, get distracted at home and the meat sits on the counter a couple of hours, Freeze it then defrost overnight and all day on the counter, load said non-intact meat in the Smoker and Fall Asleep only to wake up 6 hours later and find the fire died, power went out or not as much gas as you thought, minutes after you passed out...NOW YOU GOT A PROBLEM! Yes, this scenario is unlikely and possibly ridiculous, but my point is any ONE mistake will probably not hurt any healthy individual. It takes multiple cases of neglect to become a risk. However, a simple guideline like 40 to 140 in 4 adds a margin of Safety just in case you or someone else, that handled the meat, made a mistake. Now I need to add, if you are feeding High Risk individuals, the very young the very old and anyone with a compromised immune system...You have no room for any mistakes when it comes to Food Safety!...JJ


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## lamar

Hey JJ.........how about posting this last reply as a new post so others will have a chance to read and perhaps it will put this probe discussion to bed.

Lamar


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## foamheart

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Therm probes have been up for debate as other than supposition, there is no verifiable proof online of anyone getting sick from inserting a probe in Raw Meat. USDA, FDA and CDC have nothing on it whatsoever. 40 to 140 in 4? It is a cautionary " guideline " accepted by SMF. It mostly applies to uncured Ground meat. As far as Injection, Punching in Garlic, Etc. and Boned Rolled and Tied meat...Are you going to fall over dead if the meat takes 4.25 hours or even 5 hours to get above 140°F? Not likely...BUT...Buy your meat then stop to eat a Pizza on the way home during July in Baton Rouge, get distracted at home and the meat sits on the counter a couple of hours, Freeze it then defrost overnight and all day on the counter, load said non-intact meat in the Smoker and Fall Asleep only to wake up 6 hours later and find the fire died, power went out or not as much gas as you thought, minutes after you passed out...NOW YOU GOT A PROBLEM! Yes, this scenario is unlikely and possibly ridiculous, but my point is any ONE mistake will probably not hurt any healthy individual. It takes multiple cases of neglect to become a risk. However, a simple guideline like 40 to 140 in 4 adds a margin of Safety just in case you or someone else, that handled the meat, made a mistake. Now I need to add, if you are feeding High Risk individuals, the very young the very old and anyone with a compromised immune system...You have no room for any mistakes when it comes to Food Safety!...JJ


I understand completely. NOW if its ground and not cured, I don't smoke it. I have never done a fatty even. You always hear of the problems with ground meats and rabbit foods. TacoBell at least twice a year, you never hear of a steak house, they must get better lettuce...>LOL

I since comming into the site, I never probe when the meat is added to the smoker. Everything smoked takes 2+ hours anyway. So why open a juice leaker before its necessary anyway?

But I had seen something here lately on the site about the 4/140 rule being abolished and I figured you'd know about what it was if anyone did. Sure seems it linked a USDA site about it though. I'll have to remember who's post it was. I know I have seen some heated discussions about it.

I always believe in safety first. I still do things my way and I am pretty sure that its damn safe. To my knowledge I have never caused an illness from my food, would like to hold on to that record, (and some in my early days could have been questionable).


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## chef jimmyj

I would like to see the post you describe. I don't remember denouncing the guideline but I am getting old and forgetful. I have stated that taking it literally, Black or White, only leads to tossing perfectly good meat. Maybe that was my input...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






...JJ


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## foamheart

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I would like to see the post you describe. I don't remember denouncing the guideline but I am getting old and forgetful. I have stated that taking it literally, Black or White, only leads to tossing perfectly good meat. Maybe that was my input...
> 
> 
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> ...JJ


No Chef, I didn't mean it was you saying it. But I can't imagine you not having a dog in that fight. I seem to remember the at the end of the "discussion' it was left as "its up to you but just because its changed doesn't mean its safe".


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## scruffy bear

First time poster that has lurked to figure out I learn a little more each time I use my MES the past 3 years.  Would putting a brisket in a foil pan to steam with beef broth after the 8-10 hour mark create any safety issues similar to the injection bacteria that was shared earlier in this thread?


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## bigsmoketexas

So is beer as the liquid for the injection a no go?


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## gary s

I know I have said this many, many time taste is  personal preference .  But injecting a Brisket That's a big No ,No for Texas style Brisket.

I know everyone has seen the BBQ shows where they are injecting all kinds of stuff. My question is Why ?? I like a brisket to have a nice meat flavor with a good crust (Bark)  If I am going to inject, braise or add all kinds of flavors I'll just cook a roast in a crock pot.

I am a purest when it comes to Brisket.  Take a tough piece of meat, put some salt and pepper on it and cook it low and slow till its melt in your mouth tender.

Just my 2 cents worth

Gary


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## lancep

gary s said:


> I know I have said this many, many time taste is  personal preference .  But injecting a Brisket That's a big No ,No for Texas style Brisket.
> 
> I know everyone has seen the BBQ shows where they are injecting all kinds of stuff. My question is Why ?? I like a brisket to have a nice meat flavor with a good crust (Bark)  If I am going to inject, braise or add all kinds of flavors I'll just cook a roast in a crock pot.
> 
> I am a purest when it comes to Brisket.  Take a tough piece of meat, put some salt and pepper on it and cook it low and slow till its melt in your mouth tender.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth
> 
> Gary



I 100% agree.


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## bigsmoketexas

Eh, every now and then ill smoke it old school. But i like the results of a injected brisket as well, sometimes more. I just was curious if there are any negatives with using beer as the liquid vs water or broth. Not really sure how beer pairs with beef.


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## daveomak

Beer pairs well with beef....   I make stew etc. and add beer in place of water...


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## kam59

Butchers original for competition. At home we do not inject.


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## ez pete

I really wish KCBS and IBCA judges felt the same way. Sure seems like they've all been drifting towards that "inject the junk out of it with sweet crap and make it look purty" 

Even injecting ribs now out there. Sad days. I call it "bastard brisket" cook one set for the judges, another batch for the fans.


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## kam59

KCBS judges are trained for specific profiles.  IBCA judges are just local folks the promoter chooses to judge their event. I am a certified IBCA head judge we instruct the taste judges to judge each box on its own merit. We judge each box on aroma, color, taste and texture.


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## gary s

I Know I sound like a broken record but I'll say it again  It's an individuals taste, and in competition you have to try to figure out what the judges like, With that being said it also depends on what part of the country you are in.  If you look at successful BBQ Joints they DON'T Inject.

I like my stiff simple, Like to taste the flavor of whatever meat I'm smoking. Don't Inject or use lots of strange flavors to try to Doctor up my Q.  Don't need it

I would like to see some competitions have everyone just use a simple rub with whatever kind of wood they prefer.

If you like to inject, Inject !!

Gary


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## kam59

I wish it were that simple but with a one bite judging criteria you have to have your products pop or it gets lost in the mix.


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## ez pete

gary s said:


> I Know I sound like a broken record but I'll say it again  It's an individuals taste, and in competition you have to try to figure out what the judges like, With that being said it also depends on what part of the country you are in.  If you look at successful BBQ Joints they DON'T Inject.
> 
> I like my stiff simple, Like to taste the flavor of whatever meat I'm smoking. Don't Inject or use lots of strange flavors to try to Doctor up my Q.  Don't need it
> 
> I would like to see some competitions have everyone just use a simple rub with whatever kind of wood they prefer.
> 
> If you like to inject, Inject !!
> 
> Gary


Man... for real. I'd love a "No Charcoal, Pellet grill, cheater propane system, inject and run hot" contest.

That's fine - we can make one for the fans and one for the "one bite and done"


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## gary s

kam59 said:


> I wish it were that simple but with a one bite judging criteria you have to have your products pop or it gets lost in the mix.


Exactly what I said, With one bite it has to really Pop as you said. But again it depends on that judges preference in taste.

Just think if you leveled the playing field, Everyone had to cook the same thing, no injection and a simple rub, still one bite but wonder how that would turn out ?  If a judge likes a little sweet I'm thinking whoever used some sugar in their rub would probably get high score.

Anyway, not knocking BBQ comps  I love to go to them. But what you cook for competition and you cook for family and friends are usually  different.

All this talk of Smoking I think I'll smoke my Hotlinks Today (I made a fresh batch yesterday) and smoke a Brisket this weekend.

Gary


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## kam59

I hear you Gary. The only time we cook comp. food at home is when we practice. The idea you have was done once in Texas very strict on what to cook on and what to use. The competition failed mostly because of attendance.


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## gary s

I hear you, I really enjoy going to BBQ comps. Lots of great people and some Good BBQ

I have started a couple of times to see what I needed to do to become a judge.

Been smoking for over 45 years and eaten BBQ all over the U S and a few other countries

Gary


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## kam59

Where do you live Gary?


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## kam59

Never mind I see it on the puter now. :) 

Your'e in Region 1 are you a member of IBCA?

If you are and would like to become a judge I can talk to our judges up there and get the ball rolling.


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## gary s

kam59 said:


> Never mind I see it on the puter now. :)
> 
> Your'e in Region 1 are you a member of IBCA?
> 
> If you are and would like to become a judge I can talk to our judges up there and get the ball rolling.


I am not a member,

Gary


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## kam59

In order to be a judge or assistant you will need to be a member Gary.

I am one of the region 2 directors as well as a head judge. If you get interested in this my phone number is under regions I would be glad to visit with you on this.

All the best,

Kevin Miller.


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