# First Smoked Meatloaf....



## Xendau (Sep 10, 2018)

Well, here are some pics of my first smoked meatloaf. I ran into some "learning moments", but it wasnt too bad for a first go.

Learned - my favorite meatloaf recipe is NOT very smoker friendly. It calls for the pan to be lined with sauce, and meatloaf into pan and sauced again, then cooked.

Well, the pan keeps tons of juices from exiting and the meatloaf comes out super moist. Well, the meatloaf didnt come out "dry"... but it was definitely more dense than usual. I had variables: the lady made the mix the night before (not good in my eyes), it could have been over-handled, they could have been too packed too tightly.

Less salt than before... I almost never cook with salt.

The flavors were great... Cant wait to try again.


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## 73saint (Sep 10, 2018)

Those look great!  We love smoked meatloaf.  Best sammy in the world.  Cold meatloaf on white bread w mayo and pickles...yum!!!


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## noboundaries (Sep 10, 2018)

Looks great from here!


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## Xendau (Sep 10, 2018)

Thank you all... I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to my food. "A BIT IS A F'IN' UNDERSTATEMENT! Who are you kidding?!" Is what my lady said reading me post this.


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## SmokinAl (Sep 11, 2018)

That meat loaf looks pretty darn good to me!
Al


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## gmc2003 (Sep 11, 2018)

Looks really good to me also. I always have some smoked meatloaf slices sitting vacuum sealed in the freezer ready for a dinner at work. 

Point for sure.
Chris


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## hardcookin (Sep 11, 2018)

Nice Smoke!!


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## TomKnollRFV (Sep 11, 2018)

Trying to figure out how this isn't a good looking meatloaf! That is how I like meatloaf, sticky glaze from the saucing!


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## Xendau (Sep 11, 2018)

Thanks all! It was just a bit on the dry side. I probably should have just taken it out at an earlier IT.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 11, 2018)

Looks Great from the Bear Den!!!
At What IT Temp did you remove it?
Nice Job!
Like.

Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 11, 2018)

Bearcarver said:


> Looks Great from the Bear Den!!!
> At What IT Temp did you remove it?
> Nice Job!
> Like.
> Bear





 Bearcarver
 - I took it out at 165 degrees... Im thinking I should have removed it at 155.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 11, 2018)

Xendau said:


> Bearcarver
> - I took it out at 165 degrees... Im thinking I should have removed it at 155.




Meat loaf from Ground Beef should reach at least 160° before serving.
I tend to take mine to 165° to make sure ALL of it got to at least 160°.

Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 11, 2018)

Bearcarver said:


> Meat loaf from Ground Beef should reach at least 160° before serving.
> I tend to take mine to 165° to make sure ALL of it got to at least 160°.
> 
> Bear



I was taught 165 for any ground products, but I usually have my burger pink depending on the establishment or if I make them. Figure if I pulled at 155 and let set, it may have been less dry. 

Ill tinker with the recipe some for the smoker. I looked at Jeff's recipe, it looks nice, but I like a classic meatloaf (no BBQ rub, no cheese, classic topping sauce tomato/ketchup based). Ill try it one go, who knows, I may love it. lol


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## johnmeyer (Sep 11, 2018)

You don't need to go to 160, or anything close to that, if you don't want. Remember that the USDA temperature guidelines (which do indeed recommend 160) do so because at that temperature everything will be killed almost instantly. However, as many people have posted in these forums, you can achieve the same level of safety, at MUCH lower temperatures, if you quickly get the meat through the "danger zone," and then once it reaches 130, leave it at a given temperature for at least the time shown in the following table. If you do this, the food will be safe to eat.

Here is a link to the USDA's own time vs. temperature safety chart:

FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks April 2009

As you can see, you can cook to a nice medium-rare temperature if you get it to 140 and then keep it there for at least ten minutes. This is pretty easy to do in most smokers, since low heat is used.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 11, 2018)

johnmeyer said:


> You don't need to go to 160, or anything close to that, if you don't want. Remember that the USDA temperature guidelines (which do indeed recommend 160) do so because at that temperature everything will be killed almost instantly. However, as many people have posted in these forums, you can achieve the same level of safety, at MUCH lower temperatures, if you quickly get the meat through the "danger zone," and then once it reaches 130, leave it at a given temperature for at least the time shown in the following table. If you do this, the food will be safe to eat.
> 
> Here is a link to the USDA's own time vs. temperature safety chart:
> 
> ...




John, We're talking about Ground Beef Meat Loaf here!! Without an SV.
I'd take it to 160°.

Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 11, 2018)

johnmeyer said:


> You don't need to go to 160, or anything close to that, if you don't want. Remember that the USDA temperature guidelines (which do indeed recommend 160) do so because at that temperature everything will be killed almost instantly. However, as many people have posted in these forums, you can achieve the same level of safety, at MUCH lower temperatures, if you quickly get the meat through the "danger zone," and then once it reaches 130, leave it at a given temperature for at least the time shown in the following table. If you do this, the food will be safe to eat.
> 
> Here is a link to the USDA's own time vs. temperature safety chart:
> 
> ...



John... Thanks for the info. I am quite familiar with food safety and handling. I was a Le Cordon Bleu (Atlanta) Grad, and a line cook for any number of high end to Michelin Star restaurants (before going back to my first career). I have also been a personal chef for a few years.

I rarely allow ground meats to go under 155 if I have not ground the meat myself, or have not seen it ground. Too many horror stories of people picking up meat, deciding they dont want it, but dont take it back to the refrigerated section and employees not know how long the meat has sat at unsafe temps, take it back to the meat department for the next unsuspecting customer.

I have to know the establishment, and sometimes the cook, if I ever get a burger a lil' pink like I prefer them.

Sorry, not saying youre wrong, Im just hyper aware of food safety. I often have multiple people I am feeding, and would feel terrible if I, or any of them, got sick from my mishandling or assuming.


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## johnmeyer (Sep 12, 2018)

Either the USDA chart I linked to is correct, or it isn't. If it is, then what I said above is correct, and my advice does not violate any food safety rules.

If you believe in science, then temperature and time are all that matters, not whether you cook the meat via sous vide, the smoker, the skillet, the microwave, or the oven. The microbes don't know where the heat is coming from, nor do they know whether they are in beef that is whole, or beef that has been ground, or meat that has sat on the butcher floor for two hours. If you follow the chart, they will succumb.

The one mandatory item, regardless of whether you cook to 135 or 160, is a good thermometer.

I certainly don't want to start any arguments, so by all means cook the meat to whatever temperature you want. I only responded because the complaint was that it came out "on the dry side." No surprise: given the temperature, that is what you are going to get.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 12, 2018)

johnmeyer said:


> Either the USDA chart I linked to is correct, or it isn't. If it is, then what I said above is correct, and my advice does not violate any food safety rules.
> 
> If you believe in science, then temperature and time are all that matters, not whether you cook the meat via sous vide, the smoker, the skillet, the microwave, or the oven. The microbes don't know where the heat is coming from, nor do they know whether they are in beef that is whole, or beef that has been ground, or meat that has sat on the butcher floor for two hours. If you follow the chart, they will succumb.
> 
> ...




*I believe this is a follow-up to the link you posted:
*
*PUBLIC HEALTH SIGNIFICANCE*
The FDA Food Code § 3-401.11(A)(1) applies to fish and meat, including game animals, and specifies that the products can be cooked to 63°C (145°F) for 15 seconds. This time and temperature combination is only appropriate for intact portion cuts of meat, because the contamination is expected to be on the outside of the product, so the product should be safe if the external surface is cooked to 145°F (National Advisory Committee on Microbiological Criteria for Foods, 1997). Although there are exceptions in § 3-401.11(A)(2) for non intact products (mechanically tenderized, injected, or comminuted), it is not clear that the instructions in § 3-401.11(A)(1) only apply to intact products. Therefore FSIS and FDA recommend a new definition for the word INTACT MEAT as follows:

"Intact meat" means a cut of whole muscle(s) MEAT that has not undergone comminution, injection, mechanical tenderization, or reconstruction.

Adding this new definition to the FDA Food Code will clarify which instructions apply to intact meat and which apply to non-intact meat. Making these clarifications would alleviate confusion and ensure that retailers cook meat products using the proper times and temperatures to ensure food safety.
*
Section 3-401.11(A)(2) applies to mechanically tenderized meats and specifies that they should be cooked at 68°C (155°F) for 15 seconds. However, according to the FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks, non-intact products should be held at 68°C (155°F) for 17 seconds. Other time and temperature combinations in the table in § 3-401.11(A)(2) would also provide a 5-log reduction of Salmonella in these products. Therefore, FSIS and FDA recommend that the time the product is held is increased from 15 seconds to 17 seconds to be consistent with the table, and the other time and temperature combinations from the table in the FSIS guidance are provided in the Annex.*

Section 3-401.11(A)(3) applies to poultry products and recommends that they are cooked at 74°C (165°F) or above for 15 seconds. According to the FSIS guidance in the Time-Temperature Tables for Cooking Ready-to-Eat (RTE) Poultry Products, poultry products can be cooked to 74°C (165°F) instantaneous to achieve a 7-log reduction of _Salmonella_. Therefore, FSIS and FDA recommend deleting the 15 second dwell time from the minimum criteria specified in that subparagraph and changing it to instantaneous. This change is also consistent with CFP Issue # 2002-I-33, which recommended that USDA and FDA work together to establish instantaneous cooking temperatures for animal products that have minimum dwell time of 15 seconds. In addition, FSIS and FDA recommend that retailers have the option of cooking poultry products using the additional time and temperature combinations in the FSIS poultry tables and adding this information in the Food Code Annex.


Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 12, 2018)

johnmeyer
 - Sorry, but either the government has conflicting information, or your chart is not referencing ground meat. My apologies, but in culinary school, safe cooking temp taught for ground meat is 160 to 165.

The website for USDA/FSIS states, "To destroy harmful bacteria, cook ground beef to a safe minimum internal temperature of 160 °F (71.1 °C)."

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...paration/ground-beef-and-food-safety/ct_index

9th paragraph, last sentence.

No arguments, just facts.


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## johnmeyer (Sep 12, 2018)

I am not trying to argue either, but the last two post are very confusing to me. Basically, what the last two posts say is that sous vide cooking recommendations are very dangerous and should not be followed. After all, one of the main features of sous vide is the ability to cook food to much lower finishing temperatures, and still have it safe, because of what is contained in that chart I linked to above.

Should I believe these last two posts, or should I believe what I read in most sous vide sites? 

Here is one such site which discusses how to make the "ultimate" hamburger. Since hamburger and meatloaf are basically the same thing (both use ground beef), I think this applies here:

The Food Lab's Complete Guide to Sous Vide Burgers

If you scroll halfway down that page, you'll see the temperatures recommended, and they range from 120 to 155, all of them below 160. 

And this is for ground beef, not "intact" meat.

So, as I said above, if you follow what is being said in these last posts, you should quit using your sous vide machine the way the manufacturer, the web sites, and many people in this forum recommend using it. Heck, the whole reason I even know about that chart is by reading dozens of posts here in this forum, over in the sous vide section.

I am confused.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 12, 2018)

I try not to confuse Sous Vide with other cooking methods.
When I look up USDA & FSIS Ground Beef Safe cooking temps, I consistently get the following:
160° IT is the safe IT.
And also---Restaurants must take Ground Beef to at least 155° for 17 seconds. (Like in Post #18 above---Highlighted & underlined).

Sous Vide is a whole different ballgame.
*Best way to avoid confusion is to not bring Temps used in SV to a discussion of other types of cooking.*

Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 12, 2018)

The meatloaf was smoked my friend. (in best movie announcer voice) "No Sous Vide was used in the cooking of this meatloaf."

When smoking, even using my FireBoard with ATC, I know I do not posses the skill it would take for any meat to sit at an internal temp for the period required for it to be cooked safely. I cant see using anything but a SV to cook something to a constant IT that is required (by USDA) to be safe to eat.

Its pretty cut and dry though... Professional Culinary programs state 160-165 for ground beef. The very site you got the chart from (USDA/FSIS) states 160 minimum for ground beef.


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## johnmeyer (Sep 12, 2018)

One last time: the microbes don't know how the heat got there, so if they are brought up to the lethal temps, and stay there for the prescribed time, they will die. _The method of heat application does not matter one iota. _Sous vide, smoking, oven, microwave ... it doesn't matter.

I realize that sous vide was not used in cooking the meatloaf. My reason for mentioning it is that because sous vide cooking provides incredibly precise temperature control of the heating environment, it has made possible the safe exploitation of the science contained in that chart I linked to. However, any other heating/cooking method that gets the meat to that temperature, and for that time, will also produce a safe result.

And, just so everyone is clear, the reason the same USDA site recommends 160 for ground beef, or 165 for poultry is that those temperatures assure that all pathogens will be killed _instantly_. If you follow those recommendations, there is no room for people _who don't know what they're doing _to get into trouble. Thus, the safest thing for the USDA to do is to tell everyone to follow these guidelines. 

"Food safety for idiots," I guess you could call it. 

Having said that, _please _do not misunderstand or take offense: I am not calling anyone here an idiot. Instead, I am merely trying to get across the reason for why the USDA may appear to be giving out conflicting advice.


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## tallbm (Sep 12, 2018)

I think you will get your technique down.  I agree that the oven approach may not be ideal for the smoker.  I think adding your sauce at the end may yield the best results.  That kind of stuff works well in the case of bbq sauce added at the end to finish the cook/smoke rather than adding at the beginning like can be done in the oven.

Heck you can even do the entire thing without a sauce and add that at the table.
I do meat loaf that has no sauces on it, though I do mix in some tomato sauce along with the seasonings and chopped veggies (onion and green bell pepper).  The flavor from the tomato sauce is a great addition and I would never leave it out in my recipe. 
I eat my meatloaf with brown gravy so never been one for the tomato/ketchup on top but there are many ways to cook a meat loaf.

Also maybe trying a different binding agent may help retain moisture.  I use oatmeal which will disintegrate but being that it is a whole dry grain I think it is possible it holds up better and holds more moisture than bread crumbs over the amount of time the meatloaf spends in the smoker.

These are all just suggestions so take from them what you like and leave what you don't.  Smoked meatloaf is stupid amazing and I have evolved to doing mini individual served ones which is cool when every person gets their own entire mini meatloaf on a plate.  Kind of like Cornish Game hens hahaha.  

And now to show you that I'm not just talking out of my butt about all this meatloaf stuff are some pics :)
Keep it up and you will get it down!












DSC_9054[1]



__ tallbm
__ Feb 18, 2018


















DSC_9056[1]



__ tallbm
__ Feb 18, 2018


















DSC_9058[1]



__ tallbm
__ Feb 18, 2018


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## Bearcarver (Sep 12, 2018)

Sorry for the Hijack, Xendau, it seems you know what you're doing.

Meanwhile this idiot will continue to use the Pasteurization chart for all of my Sous Vide cooking, and I'll continue to use the safe Temp recommendations for other cooking.
When I cook Beef in my SV, I prefer 132° water.
But when I Smoke the same Beef I Prefer about 142°, or between 138° and 144°.
And I'll cook my Meatloaf to 160° IT.

Later,

Bear


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## Xendau (Sep 12, 2018)

Bearcarver said:


> Sorry for the Hijack, Xendau, it seems you know what you're doing.
> Later,
> Bear





 Bearcarver
 - No worries my friend. I dont see what youve done as hijacking. You're simply trying to inform as I am.

Thank you for the additional info, and backing. While I've graduated from culinary school, and worked in some of the nicest restaurants in Atlanta and Los Angeles... smoking is my heart. 

Sure I still do really nice plates when the occasion calls, but I prefer Que and comfort foods.

At this point... its wasted breath. He quoted from a web site that has backed 160 minimum. I linked, and at this point feel to discuss further is futile.

As an ex-personal chef, I would never cook ground meats or eggs, be low recommended temps without waiver signed by the client. 

What i do at home for me and my lady differs... from even when we have guests. I err on the side of caution.

Last thing I need is a unhappy family, friend, etc... as I would like to get back into weekend q'ing publicaly


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## Bearcarver (Sep 13, 2018)

Xendau said:


> Bearcarver
> - No worries my friend. I dont see what youve done as hijacking. You're simply trying to inform as I am.
> 
> Thank you for the additional info, and backing. While I've graduated from culinary school, and worked in some of the nicest restaurants in Atlanta and Los Angeles... smoking is my heart.
> ...




Exactly!

Bear


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