# Avoid Temp Swings in MES  (By Bear)



## Bearcarver

*Avoid Temp Swings in MES*   (By Bear)

*How I avoid much of the annoying heat over-running (Temp Swings):*

A lot of MES owners complain about the wide cycling spreads they get for awhile at the beginning of a Smoke.

The following method I use should work with all MES units, and probably any other electric smoker without a PID set-up.

When you start an MES by preheating it to a set temp it will run all the way to that set temp before the heating element shuts off. This could take in the area of one half hour. Then the heat will continue to rise for a while. I call that “Coasting”. The longer the run either up or down, the farther it will Coast. 

In other words, if you want your smoker to be at 230°, and you set it at 230°, it will shut off at 230°, but depending on things like Ambient Temp, Wind, etc, etc the heat in the smoker could Coast up to 240°, 250° or sometimes even more. Then once it stops Coasting, the temp will eventually begin to fall, and continue to fall until it hits one or two degrees below your temp setting, and then the element comes on. Then since it just had another relatively long run coming down from the over-run you just had above 230°, it will now continue to fall below the set point after the element comes on. It may fall down as low as 20° or more below your set point before the temp of the smoker begins to rise again.

This over-running can continue for a good number of heating & cooling cycles, before it settles down to only over-running a few degrees above and below your set point.

The best way I have found to avoid this annoying problem is as follows:

If you want your smoker to be 230° inside, set your control at 215°. Then let it run & shut off at 215°. Then watch how far it Coasts above 215° before it stops & begins to fall. If it runs to 230° or above, change your setting to 230°. Now that it won’t be dropping a long way before reaching the set point, it also won’t over-run much below the set point after the heating element comes on. Then since it won’t be making a long run to get back up to 230°, it won’t over-run much above that 230° shut-off point. 

This will cut way down on the Over-running above & below your set point in a much shorter time than it would without playing this little game.

Also if on that first run up, it only Coasts to 225° instead of 230°, just slide your heat setting up to 223° or 224°, and catch it at 230° on the next cycle.

Once you do this for a few smokes you’ll be able to fine tune it. I have it more fine tuned than the above, but it would take too long to explain it in type.

Note: For those of us who live in the North, you will learn that the heating tends to over-run in the Upward direction more in the Summer than in the Winter, and it will Over-run more in the Downward direction in the Winter than in the Summer.

I hope this helps some of those who don’t like seeing the big Temp Swings in their Electric Smokers.

Bear


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## brickguy221

Great tips Bear. Thanks for posting that information. From my experience on my "now parked" 40" Gen 2, I am aware of the temp over runs and under runs, but never knew why or how they might be controlled. The "word on the street" is ... "Da Bear knows" 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Again, thanks Bear ....


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## gary s

Great Information !!! I'll have to try That !!  Oh Wait I have an RF, darn.

To me this looks like some very useful information and should help lots of folks  Well written and easy to understand "Even for an old stick burner like me".























       
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Gary


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## jted

Nice job Bear. Great useful info for a lot of folks.  Jted


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## rabbithutch

Thumbs Up

Thanks, Bear!

I will definitely make use of that information.


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> *Avoid Temp Swings in MES*   (By Bear)
> 
> *How I avoid much of the annoying heat over-running (Temp Swings):*
> 
> A lot of MES owners complain about the wide cycling spreads they get for awhile at the beginning of a Smoke.
> 
> The following method I use should work with all MES units, and probably any other electric smoker without a PID set-up.
> 
> When you start an MES by preheating it to a set temp it will run all the way to that set temp before the heating element shuts off. This could take in the area of one half hour. Then the heat will continue to rise for a while. I call that “Coasting”. The longer the run either up or down, the farther it will Coast.
> 
> In other words, if you want your smoker to be at 230°, and you set it at 230°, it will shut off at 230°, but depending on things like Ambient Temp, Wind, etc, etc the heat in the smoker could Coast up to 240°, 250° or sometimes even more. Then once it stops Coasting, the temp will eventually begin to fall, and continue to fall until it hits one or two degrees below your temp setting, and then the element comes on. Then since it just had another relatively long run coming down from the over-run you just had above 230°, it will now continue to fall below the set point after the element comes on. It may fall down as low as 20° or more below your set point before the temp of the smoker begins to rise again.
> 
> This over-running can continue for a good number of heating & cooling cycles, before it settles down to only over-running a few degrees above and below your set point.
> 
> The best way I have found to avoid this annoying problem is as follows:
> 
> If you want your smoker to be 230° inside, set your control at 215°. Then let it run & shut off at 215°. Then watch how far it Coasts above 215° before it stops & begins to fall. If it runs to 230° or above, change your setting to 230°. Now that it won’t be dropping a long way before reaching the set point, it also won’t over-run much below the set point after the heating element comes on. Then since it won’t be making a long run to get back up to 230°, it won’t over-run much above that 230° shut-off point.
> 
> This will cut way down on the Over-running above & below your set point in a much shorter time than it would without playing this little game.
> 
> Also if on that first run up, it only Coasts to 225° instead of 230°, just slide your heat setting up to 223° or 224°, and catch it at 230° on the next cycle.
> 
> Once you do this for a few smokes you’ll be able to fine tune it. I have it more fine tuned than the above, but it would take too long to explain it in type.
> 
> Note: For those of us who live in the North, you will learn that the heating tends to over-run in the Upward direction more in the Summer than in the Winter, and it will Over-run more in the Downward direction in the Winter than in the Summer.
> 
> I hope this helps some of those who don’t like seeing the big Temp Swings in their Electric Smokers.
> 
> Bear


Bear, you've very clearly explained what I recently learned from personal observation and you added some tips I hadn't thought about. Jted also provided me with similar insight into how the MES controller works. I gotta figure out how to mark or save your post for future reference. Great job as always, Bear.


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## ostrichsak

Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.


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## daricksta

Ostrichsak said:


> Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.


Ostrichsak, you'll see some members here advise using the water pan as a heat sink by partially filling it with clean playground sand and foiling it over. I tried that a few times and saw no difference with temperature stability. Bear nailed exactly how the MES controller works. Thanks to Bear's advice, I just foil over the empty water pan. I use it as another drip pan and it also serves to protect the heating element housing from drips as well in my MES 30 Gen 1.


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## ostrichsak

daRicksta said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Ostrichsak, you'll see some members here advise using the water pan as a heat sink by partially filling it with clean playground sand and foiling it over. I tried that a few times and saw no difference with temperature stability. Bear nailed exactly how the MES controller works. Thanks to Bear's advice, I just foil over the empty water pan. I use it as another drip pan and it also serves to protect the heating element housing from drips as well in my MES 30 Gen 1.
Click to expand...

That's how mine is right now so I'll probably just leave it and try preheating to 215deg next time and then stepping up to the desired temp once that temp is holding more solid.  Makes perfect sense to me.


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## chef jimmyj

Ostrichsak said:


> Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.


Yes, adding Sand, Bricks and such, holds the heat and assists the coil in recovering and maintaining the setpoint. The swing issue only exists for the first couple of hours. It is a load of Cold meat that causes the rapid cooling after the coil turns off. Once the IT of the meat reaches 140°F or so, 3-4 hours in, the swings are small...JJ


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## ostrichsak

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, adding Sand, Bricks and such, holds the heat and assists the coil in recovering and maintaining the setpoint. The swing issue only exists for the first couple of hours. It is a load of Cold meat that causes the rapid cooling after the coil turns off. Once the IT of the meat reaches 140°F or so, 3-4 hours in, the swings are small...JJ
Click to expand...


That's been my experience for the most part as well: once meat temps start to come up things tend to steady which is to be expected with forces at work.


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## daricksta

Ostrichsak said:


> That's how mine is right now so I'll probably just leave it and try preheating to 215deg next time and then stepping up to the desired temp once that temp is holding more solid.  Makes perfect sense to me.


I'd like to see more posts by you just so I can look at your profile photo! Some guys take out the water pan but Masterbuilt and the mentors here advise leaving it in since it also acts as a heat shield/deflector and such if it's left foiled over and empty.


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## ostrichsak

daRicksta said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how mine is right now so I'll probably just leave it and try preheating to 215deg next time and then stepping up to the desired temp once that temp is holding more solid.  Makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see more posts by you just so I can look at your profile photo! Some guys take out the water pan but Masterbuilt and the mentors here advise leaving it in since it also acts as a heat shield/deflector and such if it's left foiled over and empty.
Click to expand...


I'm fortune to wake up to my avatar every morning for over a decade now. ;-) 

 My first few smokes I left the pan bare but after cleaning it a couple of times I started lining it w/HD foil first. Sure helps w/clean-up.


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## daricksta

Ostrichsak said:


> I'm fortune to wake up to my avatar every morning for over a decade now. ;-)
> 
> My first few smokes I left the pan bare but after cleaning it a couple of times I started lining it w/HD foil first. Sure helps w/clean-up.


I also foil the bottom drip pan. Over the last few smokes I noticed that the water pan caught almost all the drippings which didn't leave much for the drip pan to catch (or the grease tray in the outside rear). I used to foil over the top of the heating element housing and tent over the AMNPS but again, haven't had much problems with grease dripping onto them.

I stole my avatar from my son after he showed it to me. He and I are huge "BB" fans as well as fans of the last Godzilla movie. The meme with Walter in the car and Godzilla replacing Hank is brilliant.


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## Bearcarver

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Yes, adding Sand, Bricks and such, holds the heat and assists the coil in recovering and maintaining the setpoint. *The swing issue only exists for the first couple of hours. *It is a load of Cold meat that causes the rapid cooling after the coil turns off. *Once the IT of the meat reaches 140°F or so, 3-4 hours in, the swings are small*...JJ


Note that my original post was during "Pre-heating"----No cold meat involved.
Actually cold meat does make it worse, but *my explanation above was with an empty Smoker*. It still over-runs the set point by quite a bit if you don't do my "above" method of cure.

Just the fact that it has to drop 20° to 30° on the way down before it hits the set point can cause it to lose another 20° before it starts to rise. (With an Empty Smoker)

Putting sand or bricks in can help some, but not enough to make it worth the extra effort to heat it up at the start. IMHO

And it is not just the warm meat that causes the swings to be small after 3-4 hours. It is also because you aren't making big changes in your setting at that time. If you made a 50° change later in the smoke, the swing would be a lot bigger even with 140° meat.

Bear


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## Bearcarver

Ostrichsak said:


> Good post.  Have you experimented with adding items to the inside of the smoker to see how that affects the swings?  If one were to add a heat-retaining liquid or solid (sand?) to the drip pan in an effort to add more insulation it would take longer to preheat but the swings should be controlled further as it won't get as cold before it heats again in those first few fluctuations as you described.  Curious your (or anyone else who has first-hand knowledge) thoughts or results on testing that.  In my mind that should produce similar results with less hands-on effort to achieve it if it works.


Like I told JJ, putting sand or bricks in can help, but IMO not enough to make it worth the extra heating it takes at the start, especially in the Winter in the North. It takes a lot of heat to warm up a pan full of ZERO Degree sand.

My main point in my original post above is " *It is the long runs that cause the big over-runs"*:

The run from Zero to 230° causes a real big over-run.

Then dropping from 250+° down to 228° causes another big over-run, like maybe 20°.

Then running up again from 208° back up to 230° causes another one!!!

Each time it over-runs it gets a little less, but it still take a lot of time.

My method above cuts that problem way down!!!

Bear


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## dr k

daRicksta said:


> I'd like to see more posts by you just so I can look at your profile photo! Some guys take out the water pan but Masterbuilt and the mentors here advise leaving it in since it also acts as a heat shield/deflector and such if it's left foiled over and empty.


With the gen 1 and the chip loader all the way in the only air intake is through the grease trap opening in the back.  When the MES is up and running and you put a flame from a lighter to the opening it sucks the flame out into the smoker.  That short elbow from the trap to the inside of the bottom drip pan sure makes this smoker breathe.  I've noticed more even heating just by putting foil over the right opening between the water pan and right rear corner.  I want to push heat toward the opposite corner where the door latch is so it can come back across the food then out the vent, keeping the heat from going up the back wall over the CC thermometer out the vent.  I'm going to make a template.  I'll cover the right half of the water pan with foil while it's in the smoker and make sure the foil butts up to the back wall and right side wall but is open on the door side a half an inch or however close the closest point is between the water pan and the door.  Then cut out what covers the water pan opening.  It'll be a start but may take some time to play with it before making it in a heavier gauge steel/aluminum I can wrap in foil. 

-Kurt


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## Bearcarver

Dr K said:


> With the gen 1 and the chip loader all the way in the only air intake is through the grease trap opening in the back.  When the MES is up and running and you put a flame from a lighter to the opening it sucks the flame out into the smoker.  That short elbow from the trap to the inside of the bottom drip pan sure makes this smoker breathe.  I've noticed more even heating just by putting foil over the right opening between the water pan and right rear corner.  I want to push heat toward the opposite corner where the door latch is so it can come back across the food then out the vent, keeping the heat from going up the back wall over the CC thermometer out the vent.  I'm going to make a template.  I'll cover the right half of the water pan with foil while it's in the smoker and make sure the foil butts up to the back wall and right side wall but is open on the door side a half an inch or however close the closest point is between the water pan and the door.  Then cut out what covers the water pan opening.  It'll be a start but may take some time to play with it before making it in a heavier gauge steel/aluminum I can wrap in foil.
> 
> -Kurt


Kurt,
I thought about doing what you're talking about a few times, but then I figured if I replaced the water pan with a flat piece of metal, the drips that fell on it would run off & drip below it, so I decided to keep the water pan in my smoker where it belongs (to catch drips) & just add my deflector plate in the bottom right to push the heat over to the center & left before it rises through the smoker & out the top vent on the right.

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Note that my original post was during "Pre-heating"----No cold meat involved.
> Actually cold meat does make it worse, but *my explanation above was with an empty Smoker*. It still over-runs the set point by quite a bit if you don't do my "above" method of cure.
> 
> Just the fact that it has to drop 20° to 30° on the way down before it hits the set point can cause it to lose another 20° before it starts to rise. (With an Empty Smoker)
> 
> Putting sand or bricks in can help some, but not enough to make it worth the extra effort to heat it up at the start. IMHO
> 
> And it is not just the warm meat that causes the swings to be small after 3-4 hours. It is also because you aren't making big changes in your setting at that time. If you made a 50° change later in the smoke, the swing would be a lot bigger even with 140° meat.
> 
> Bear


In my now-famous first pork shoulder smoke, I wrote that I bumped up the temp to 250° to reach my target 200° more quickly. This was about 8 hours into the smoke (with another two hours to go). Now I had the ET-733 maximum smoker temp alarm set to 250° at that point and the alarm sounded when the temp hit 252° so I bumped the max temp alarm up to 260°. Here's the deal: once the smoker settled back (fairly quickly) at 250° it stayed there for the rest of the smoke. I was in awe.


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## daricksta

Dr K said:


> With the gen 1 and the chip loader all the way in the only air intake is through the grease trap opening in the back.  When the MES is up and running and you put a flame from a lighter to the opening it sucks the flame out into the smoker.  That short elbow from the trap to the inside of the bottom drip pan sure makes this smoker breathe.  I've noticed more even heating just by putting foil over the right opening between the water pan and right rear corner.  I want to push heat toward the opposite corner where the door latch is so it can come back across the food then out the vent, keeping the heat from going up the back wall over the CC thermometer out the vent.  I'm going to make a template.  I'll cover the right half of the water pan with foil while it's in the smoker and make sure the foil butts up to the back wall and right side wall but is open on the door side a half an inch or however close the closest point is between the water pan and the door.  Then cut out what covers the water pan opening.  It'll be a start but may take some time to play with it before making it in a heavier gauge steel/aluminum I can wrap in foil.
> 
> -Kurt


Bear has a movable heat baffle he uses in his MES 40 to redirect heat from the right to the left side as needed. As for me, I track the interior temps with my ET-733 and the time that I used both probes when smoking pork ribs I saw the hot side transfer from the right to the left side in my MES 30 Gen 1 over 7 hours. I never thought about where the air intake is.

I'd like to see you construct what you're describing because I can't picture it.


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> In my now-famous first pork shoulder smoke, I wrote that I bumped up the temp to 250° to reach my target 200° more quickly. This was about 8 hours into the smoke (with another two hours to go). Now I had the ET-733 maximum smoker temp alarm set to 250° at that point and the alarm sounded when the temp hit 252° so I bumped the max temp alarm up to 260°. Here's the deal: once the smoker settled back (fairly quickly) at 250° it stayed there for the rest of the smoke. I was in awe.


Right, but if I'm not mistaken your big move to 250° was only about 15° from where you were, or you would have had to move your alarm up even higher, because you would have had a bigger over-run.

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Right, but if I'm not mistaken your big move to 250° was only about 15° from where you were, or you would have had to move your alarm up even higher, because you would have had a bigger over-run.
> 
> Bear


Correct as always. But with your posts and those of others today I have a better understanding of how it all works. I won't be complaining of temp swings anymore.


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## Bearcarver

Brickguy221 said:


> Great tips Bear. Thanks for posting that information. From my experience on my "now parked" 40" Gen 2, I am aware of the temp over runs and under runs, but never knew why or how they might be controlled. The "word on the street" is ... "Da Bear knows"
> 
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> Again, thanks Bear ....


Thank You Sir!!

I Appreciate the Kind Words!!

Bear


gary s said:


> Great Information !!! I'll have to try That !!  Oh Wait I have an RF, darn.
> 
> To me this looks like some very useful information and should help lots of folks  Well written and easy to understand "Even for an old stick burner like me".
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Thanks Gary!!

And Thanks for the Point.

Bear


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## dr k

Bearcarver said:


> Kurt,
> I thought about doing what you're talking about a few times, but then I figured if I replaced the water pan with a flat piece of metal, the drips that fell on it would run off & drip below it, so I decided to keep the water pan in my smoker where it belongs (to catch drips) & just add my deflector plate in the bottom right to push the heat over to the center & left before it rises through the smoker & out the top vent on the right.
> 
> Bear


I misspoke regarding the chip loader.  I mentioned when it's all the way in all the air is coming into the smoker through the grease trap opening.  I just saw the three holes in the chip loader.  I won't be removing the water pan.  The pic below shows the template I'll use to make a deflector out of an old cookie sheet.  I'll foil the deflector and as always the water pan.  I can easily shorten the narrow ends.  It's a start.  There's an inch between the template and the door so heat can rise up anywhere on the door.













CAM00575.jpg



__ dr k
__ Jun 19, 2015






-Kurt


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## Bearcarver

Dr K said:


> I misspoke regarding the chip loader.  I mentioned when it's all the way in all the air is coming into the smoker through the grease trap opening.  I just saw the three holes in the chip loader.  I won't be removing the water pan.  The pic below shows the template I'll use to make a deflector out of an old cookie sheet.  I'll foil the deflector and as always the water pan.  I can easily shorten the narrow ends.  It's a start.  There's an inch between the template and the door so heat can rise up anywhere on the door.
> 
> -Kurt


You'll be alright with that inch in the front, but just don't close the right side off entirely---It will cause problems.

That's why I like my deflector plate----I can put a Maverick probe on each side of my meat above, and adjust the slant of the plate to keep the heat balanced from left to right.

Bear


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## dr k

Bearcarver said:


> You'll be alright with that inch in the front, but just don't close the right side off entirely---It will cause problems.
> 
> That's why I like my deflector plate----I can put a Maverick probe on each side of my meat above, and adjust the slant of the plate to keep the heat balanced from left to right.
> 
> Bear


I modified the template, transferred it to the cookie sheet, cut it out and wrapped it in foil.  I'll try it directly on the water pan but I can put it on a rack with the beveled edge toward the door so it can breathe around the water pan if I have to.













CAM00577.jpg



__ dr k
__ Jun 19, 2015


















CAM00576.jpg



__ dr k
__ Jun 19, 2015






-Kurt


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Thank You Sir!!
> 
> I Appreciate the Kind Words!!
> 
> Bear
> 
> Thanks Gary!!
> 
> And Thanks for the Point.
> 
> Bear


Do you know what you've done, Bear? You've knocked the shovel out of the hands of quite a few guys who claim the MES units all have defective controllers. It turns out that, based on their design, those older controllers are performing as they were intended to. I was one of the big complainers about the temp swings and it turns out I was helping to cause them. I now understand that the controllers operate exactly the way you, Jted, and others have described. It all makes sense now.

This is why I continue to champion my little MES 30 Gen 1 as being the best electric smoker in its price range.


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## ostrichsak

daRicksta said:


> Bearcarver said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You Sir!!
> 
> I Appreciate the Kind Words!!
> 
> Bear
> 
> Thanks Gary!!
> 
> And Thanks for the Point.
> 
> Bear
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what you've done, Bear? You've knocked the shovel out of the hands of quite a few guys who claim the MES units all have defective controllers. It turns out that, based on their design, those older controllers are performing as they were intended to. I was one of the big complainers about the temp swings and it turns out I was helping to cause them. I now understand that the controllers operate exactly the way you, Jted, and others have described. It all makes sense now.
> 
> This is why I continue to champion my little MES 30 Gen 1 as being the best electric smoker in its price range.
Click to expand...

Disagree.  I've had mine swing temps hours after the preheat phase and some would argue that a better controller/heating element wouldn't have that swing during the preheat phase either.  This is the same symptoms of using a heater rated at too many BTU's for the space you wish to heat.  When it kicks on it blows right past the set temp before shutting down and if your thermostat is set with improper duty cycle settings it can cool beyond your desired set point before kicking back on again.  He's given us a band-aid fix workaround but the problem is still Masterbuilt's.


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## Bearcarver

Ostrichsak said:


> Disagree.  I've had mine swing temps hours after the preheat phase and some would argue that a better controller/heating element wouldn't have that swing during the preheat phase either.  This is the same symptoms of using a heater rated at too many BTU's for the space you wish to heat.  When it kicks on it blows right past the set temp before shutting down and if your thermostat is set with improper duty cycle settings it can cool beyond your desired set point before kicking back on again.  He's given us a band-aid fix workaround but the problem is still Masterbuilt's.


You have to re-read what I said. I said the biggest over-runs are during the pre-heating, because that is when the biggest run is----Like from 0° to 230° (or whatever).

Then if you don't adjust it with my method, the downward over-run will be big too. and a number of up & down over-runs will be caused each by the fact that the one before made the next one a long run too.

Now if you neck the over-runs down by using the method I described, you won't have a big over-run, and therefore it won't be causing the one after, and so on.

The part I was trying to avoid having to explain in my Original Post is the following:

If you change the setting in the middle of the smoke without doing a similar thing you will start the over-runs again.

Once you have it settled down, at lets say 230°, and you want to got to 240°, you should set it for 235°. Then when it shuts off at 235° and coasts to lets say 238°, then you reset at 237°, and work your way up to 240° with those small moves. This is what keeps the over-runs small, instead of the up & down swings getting out of hand.

It's really hard to explain, but if you understand what I'm explaining, and your Smoker doesn't have some other problem, this should tune down those wild swings.

BTW: Mine shuts off at exactly on the set Temp, and starts up either one or two degrees below the set temp. All other smoker heat movement is Over-run (Up or Down).

Bear


----------



## daricksta

Ostrichsak said:


> Disagree.  I've had mine swing temps hours after the preheat phase and some would argue that a better controller/heating element wouldn't have that swing during the preheat phase either.  This is the same symptoms of using a heater rated at too many BTU's for the space you wish to heat.  When it kicks on it blows right past the set temp before shutting down and if your thermostat is set with improper duty cycle settings it can cool beyond your desired set point before kicking back on again.  He's given us a band-aid fix workaround but the problem is still Masterbuilt's.


I disagree with you. My MES works exactly as Bear has described which is the way it was designed and it's done so for 3 years. After a certain time of cooking the temp stays rock solid on my set point, perhaps raising a couple of degrees but then returning to my set point. I constantly monitor it with my ET-733 and I see this happen with every smoke. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the most important temp is the finish IT.

But here's the thing: I don't know if Masterbuilt has a problem. Bear's MES units are different from mine and yet ours perform exactly the same. Others in this thread also post MES controllers also operate the same way. Now, I can't speak to the Gen 2 smokers because I own a Gen 1. From what I've read the MES 2.5 controllers are even more stable.

I'm not knowledgeable of how heater thermostats work so I can't comment on your statement.


----------



## ostrichsak

Bearcarver said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree.  I've had mine swing temps hours after the preheat phase and some would argue that a better controller/heating element wouldn't have that swing during the preheat phase either.  This is the same symptoms of using a heater rated at too many BTU's for the space you wish to heat.  When it kicks on it blows right past the set temp before shutting down and if your thermostat is set with improper duty cycle settings it can cool beyond your desired set point before kicking back on again.  He's given us a band-aid fix workaround but the problem is still Masterbuilt's.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to re-read what I said. I said the biggest over-runs are during the pre-heating, because that is when the biggest run is----Like from 0° to 230° (or whatever).
> 
> Then if you don't adjust it with my method, the downward over-run will be big too. and a number of up & down over-runs will be caused each by the fact that the one before made the next one a long run too.
> 
> Now if you neck the over-runs down by using the method I described, you won't have a big over-run, and therefore it won't be causing the one after, and so on.
> 
> The part I was trying to avoid having to explain in my Original Post is the following:
> 
> If you change the setting in the middle of the smoke without doing a similar thing you will start the over-runs again.
> 
> Once you have it settled down, at lets say 230°, and you want to got to 240°, you should set it for 235°. Then when it shuts off at 235° and coasts to lets say 238°, then you reset at 237°, and work your way up to 240° with those small moves. This is what keeps the over-runs small, instead of the up & down swings getting out of hand.
> 
> It's really hard to explain, but if you understand what I'm explaining, and your Smoker doesn't have some other problem, this should tune down those wild swings.
> 
> BTW: Mine shuts off at exactly on the set Temp, and starts up either one or two degrees below the set temp. All other smoker heat is Over-run.
> 
> Bear
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I worded my response properly if you felt it was directed at you or your posts.  No need to reread because I agree with your fix 100% as a workaround.  What I was disagreeing with what the other post saying that the equipment was fine.  It is not.  If it was then your workaround wouldn't be necessary.  So, as this device is currently constituted I'm not saying anything negative about your work around.  My point was that if the device was engineered properly to begin with a band-aid fix wouldn't be necessary because it would simply reach desired temp (or at least MUCH closer to it) and then stay there.  The problem lies in the pairing of the heating element with the factory controller.  There is essentially no heat anticipatior to prevent the overrun to begin with and then the cycle is set low enough that it then allows it to dip too far below set temp before it kicks on.  Of course all of this is easier for the hardware to manage once everything is up to temp because the requirements are much lower.  Basically they need a heating element that warms quicker and a controller that anticipates heat overshoots to cancel calling for heat before the desired temp is ever reached.  It's a clear cutting of corners from a financial standpoint by MB because we're talking about technology that is found in $20 heating thermostats.  If they put a little bit more R&D and cost into those parts this could be a stellar device that didn't require such inputs to reach & maintain the preset temp.  That's all I'm saying so don't misunderstand it to have anything negative to do with your post because your post is indeed the solution assuming we never get proper hardware for these devices which is likely.  My post was in response to someone saying that your post somehow proves that the device was designed properly when it doesn't change the fact that it was poorly engineered or we wouldn't need your post to begin with.

Does that make more sense?


----------



## ostrichsak

daRicksta said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree.  I've had mine swing temps hours after the preheat phase and some would argue that a better controller/heating element wouldn't have that swing during the preheat phase either.  This is the same symptoms of using a heater rated at too many BTU's for the space you wish to heat.  When it kicks on it blows right past the set temp before shutting down and if your thermostat is set with improper duty cycle settings it can cool beyond your desired set point before kicking back on again.  He's given us a band-aid fix workaround but the problem is still Masterbuilt's.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with you. My MES works exactly as Bear has described which is the way it was designed and it's done so for 3 years. After a certain time of cooking the temp stays rock solid on my set point, perhaps raising a couple of degrees but then returning to my set point. I constantly monitor it with my ET-733 and I see this happen with every smoke. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the most important temp is the finish IT.
> 
> But here's the thing: I don't know if Masterbuilt has a problem. Bear's MES units are different from mine and yet ours perform exactly the same. Others in this thread also post MES controllers also operate the same way. Now, I can't speak to the Gen 2 smokers because I own a Gen 1. From what I've read the MES 2.5 controllers are even more stable.
> 
> *I'm not knowledgeable of how heater thermostats work so I can't comment on your statement.*
Click to expand...

Then how can you disagree when this is half of my premise about the hardware with the heating element being the other half?


----------



## Bearcarver

Ostrichsak said:


> I'm not sure I worded my response properly if you felt it was directed at you or your posts.  No need to reread because I agree with your fix 100% as a workaround.  What I was disagreeing with what the other post saying that the equipment was fine.  It is not.  If it was then your workaround wouldn't be necessary.  So, as this device is currently constituted I'm not saying anything negative about your work around.  My point was that if the device was engineered properly to begin with a band-aid fix wouldn't be necessary because it would simply reach desired temp (or at least MUCH closer to it) and then stay there.  The problem lies in the pairing of the heating element with the factory controller.  There is essentially no heat anticipatior to prevent the overrun to begin with and then the cycle is set low enough that it then allows it to dip too far below set temp before it kicks on.  Of course all of this is easier for the hardware to manage once everything is up to temp because the requirements are much lower.  Basically they need a heating element that warms quicker and a controller that anticipates heat overshoots to cancel calling for heat before the desired temp is ever reached.  It's a clear cutting of corners from a financial standpoint by MB because we're talking about technology that is found in $20 heating thermostats.  If they put a little bit more R&D and cost into those parts this could be a stellar device that didn't require such inputs to reach & maintain the preset temp.  That's all I'm saying so don't misunderstand it to have anything negative to do with your post because your post is indeed the solution assuming we never get proper hardware for these devices which is likely.  My post was in response to someone saying that your post somehow proves that the device was designed properly when it doesn't change the fact that it was poorly engineered or we wouldn't need your post to begin with.
> 
> Does that make more sense?


Yes, I know what you're saying, but if you want something that will anticipate, you need a PID.

A big part of the over-run on the way up is because everything around the element that's metal heats up well above the air temp where your sensor is. Then when the element shuts off, that heat makes it's way around the whole smoker, including the heat sensors, raising the temp reading. My method of shutting the element off before it gets to the set temp is utilizing the heated up parts around the element to finish the run to what you really want your smoker to be at.

The small over-runs after using my fix don't bother me, because even in my meat curing fridge, the air temp runs from about 29° to 45° in order to keep the meat temp at exactly 37°.

Bear


----------



## daricksta

Ostrichsak said:


> Then how can you disagree when this is half of my premise about the hardware with the heating element being the other half?


Because I'm disagreeing with you solely on your assessment of the problem with the MES controller. To me, the heater analogy is irrelevant, especially since I also don't see that behavior with the heaters I use in my home.

I also know that there have been problems with individual MES units. All I can speak to his my own experience and similar positive experiences that have been posted by others. But in a way I guess it's as wrong for me to make a blanket statement saying there's no problem with any MES controller as for you to make a blanket statement saying Masterbuilt has a problem. I've been on SMF long enough to know that Masterbuilt has shipped both good and bad units. I think you can tell when there's been a run of bad ones by how readily customer service ships out free replacements with no hassles in certain situations.

But per my post in a thread I started elsewhere I am no longer supporting or promoting Masterbuilt smokers.


----------



## dr k

Bearcarver said:


> You'll be alright with that inch in the front, but just don't close the right side off entirely---It will cause problems.
> 
> That's why I like my deflector plate----I can put a Maverick probe on each side of my meat above, and adjust the slant of the plate to keep the heat balanced from left to right.
> 
> Bear


 
I forgot to ask you what problems it will cause?  I don't want to trap heat to damage the heating element wires if that is a concern .  I just want to encourage it off the back wall where the thermostat is.  If I test it on the rack first with the right side open that will let heat rise easier.  Like shown in the pic below.













CAM00576.jpg



__ dr k
__ Jun 19, 2015






-Kurt


----------



## Bearcarver

Dr K said:


> I forgot to ask you what problems it will cause?  I don't want to trap heat to damage the heating element wires if that is a concern .  I just want to encourage it off the back wall where the thermostat is.  If I test it on the rack first with the right side open that will let heat rise easier.  Like shown in the pic below.
> 
> -Kurt


I'm not sure exactly what your target is. If it's just to kick the heat over to the left from the right back corner, you might like my more simple method below. It has an upside down "V" under the left side to slide right or left to elevate the left side. Raise it to send more heat to the left----lower it and pull it a little away from the right wall to push less to the left.

Before I did that, I tried the old "laying of the piece of ceramic tile above the heating element", which was popular a number of years back. When I did that, it started sending smoke signals out the top vent, and was acting like it was going to explode. The heat was being trapped, because the tile was laying flat above the element.

The one on the bottom right is my heat deflector. The upside down half foil pan on the left is just to keep drips from my AMNPS:













image.jpeg



__ smokin monkey
__ Feb 12, 2016






Bear


----------



## dr k

Bearcarver said:


> I'm not sure exactly what your target is. If it's just to kick the heat over to the left from the right back corner, you might like my more simple method below. It has an upside down "V" under the left side to slide right or left to elevate the left side. Raise it to send more heat to the left----lower it and pull it a little away from the right wall to push less to the left.
> 
> Before I did that, I tried the old "laying of the piece of ceramic tile above the heating element", which was popular a number of years back. When I did that, it started sending smoke signals out the top vent, and was acting like it was going to explode. The heat was being trapped, because the tile was laying flat above the element.
> 
> 
> The one on the bottom right is my heat deflector. The upside down half foil pan on the left is just to keep drips from my AMNPS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC02770.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> __ Bearcarver
> __ Aug 19, 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bear


Ok. Your deflector is the same as mine. I just cut away the metal that covers the water pan.  Mine just comes further to the middle of the water pan.  It's flexible i can bend it up or cut it back.  It looks like I don't need the rack and I'll start it the way in the pic below. And yes it's just to kick heat too the left. 












CAM00577.jpg



__ dr k
__ Jun 19, 2015





-Kurt


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> I'm not sure exactly what your target is. If it's just to kick the heat over to the left from the right back corner, you might like my more simple method below. It has an upside down "V" under the left side to slide right or left to elevate the left side. Raise it to send more heat to the left----lower it and pull it a little away from the right wall to push less to the left.
> 
> Before I did that, I tried the old "laying of the piece of ceramic tile above the heating element", which was popular a number of years back. When I did that, it started sending smoke signals out the top vent, and was acting like it was going to explode. The heat was being trapped, because the tile was laying flat above the element.
> 
> The one on the bottom right is my heat deflector. The upside down half foil pan on the left is just to keep drips from my AMNPS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> __ smokin monkey
> __ Feb 12, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bear


I believe you said in the past that this hotter on the right side problem is more of an issue with the MES 40 than with the MES 30, correct? I think my MES 30 works fine. I notice you've got the AMNPS partially covered by a cut-in-half upside down foil loaf pan. I used to put a tent foil over my AMNPS but I realized that the water pan pretty much protects it from drippings. Sometimes I'll find a bit of grease on a small section of pellets but they still burnt through it. It's one of the benefits of having the smaller smoker.


----------



## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> I believe you said in the past that this hotter on the right side problem is more of an issue with the MES 40 than with the MES 30, correct? I think my MES 30 works fine.


Yes----Since the basic problem is the fact that both the heating element and the top vent are on the right side, the wider the smoker the bigger the problem.

However my adjustable heat deflector takes care of that.

Bear


----------



## sb59

It's a shame the guy's at Masterbuilt & other manufacturers don't read these threads & add the best mods. like vents,heat deflectors,& external smoke boxes ( ala amazin ) to their smokers in the 1st place instead of new colors, windows, control box locations & blue tooth ! 

Good job, Bear !


----------



## Bearcarver

SB59 said:


> It's a shame the guy's at Masterbuilt & other manufacturers don't read these threads & add the best mods. like vents,heat deflectors,& external smoke boxes ( ala amazin ) to their smokers in the 1st place instead of new colors, windows, control box locations & blue tooth !
> 
> Good job, Bear !


Thank You Sir,

LOL----I made a suggestion to them a few years ago:

Get rid of your outside chip dumper, so you can put the heating element in the center to eliminate the unbalanced heat from left to right.

Make a special place for Todd's AMNPS, and make a Wholesale deal with him so MB can sell the AMNPS along with their MES smokers.

They didn't bite on that one, however they did make some changes after my other suggestions, like move the top vent from the back right to the back left on top, and get rid of the full width slanted drip plate & go back to the Gen #1 type water pan. These changes are seen in their Gen #2.5. And it sounds like they were a huge improvement.

Bear


----------



## Bearcarver

jted said:


> Nice job Bear. Great useful info for a lot of folks.  Jted


Thanks Jted !!

Glad you understood it the way it is!!

Bear


rabbithutch said:


> Thanks, Bear!
> 
> I will definitely make use of that information.


I Thank You Sir!!

Bear


----------



## chef jimmyj




----------



## Bearcarver

Yes---The over-runs would be different, but this method still cuts the swing amounts down.

With a lot of cold meat in the smoker, the upward over-run will be less, and the downward over-run will be more.

No matter empty, full, or half full, the big thing is to eliminate the long over-runs caused by long runs, and each time you reduce an over-run, the following over-run in the other direction will be less than it would have been.

It's hard to explain, but that's the best way I can think of saying it.

Kinda like a swinging ball on a rope. Give it a good long swing, and the following swings will be slightly less each time it changes direction, and go on for a long time, but cut one of those swings down by intervention, and the swings can be reduced quickly.

Bear


----------



## mummel

Nice post, thanks Bear.  I was going to post something similar asking questions about the overrun.  I noticed at one point yesterday my temps were coasting all the way up to 250F.  I went the check on the smoker, and the afternoon sun had come out and was beating my black Cabelas model.  I had to dial it down a bit, but the overun was like 30F and the underrun was like 5F.  It's tricky.

I reckon if our chip loaders were sealed, we would have greater stability (i.e. less wind).  Also, the AMPS adds heat when burning so probably explains the overruns.

But I think there are so many variables like wind, sun, humidity etc, its hard to say.  You just have to watch your controlled and get a feel for it.  THATS WHY I AM STARTING TO LOVE THE BLUETOOTH.  I can change the temp from inside the house.  Very cool.

On another note, I think an iGrill with charts would come in really handy to see if you have been having overuns like I was in the 250F range for how long, 10min, 1 hour?  I couldnt be sure.  Charts would be really helpful.


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Yes----Since the basic problem is the fact that both the heating element and the top vent are on the right side, the wider the smoker the bigger the problem.
> 
> However my adjustable heat deflector takes care of that.
> 
> Bear


Bear, I'd appreciate your feedback. Yesterday--which was sunny and warm--I had my MES 30 Gen 1 warming up to a set point of 250°. After placing the BBQ probe of my ET-733 inside the smoker I saw the temp shoot up to 300-302°. When I lowered the set point to 220° and opened the door to let the heat and closed it again, it shot up to 300° again. This was happening while I was letting my AMNPS heat up on the ground outside the smoker. The final time I set it at 220° it went up to 252° and stayed there until I reduced the temp to 190° after leaving the door open and closing it again, and the temp stayed about 217°. I put in 4 ribeye steaks along with the AMNPS and the controller temp stayed solid at 220°. I wound up bumping the temp up to 250° because I was afraid the steaks would take too long to get to 95° IT. As it turned out they got up there more quickly than I figured, slightly before the coals in my Weber kettle charcoal grill were ready. I let the steaks go up to 117° IT before pulling them from the smoker.

I made sure I again cleaned the hi temp shutoff switch which had been clean before I turned the smoker on. I've read your posts on how the MES controller works but I don't understand why the temp got so high in the empty smoker and then settled down just before I put the steaks and the AMNPS in. Once I got the temp stabilized I had no further problems with my MES. It performed great as always.


----------



## mummel

Was the smoker in direct sunlight?  I found mine way overshot when the afternoon sun starting hitting it directly.


----------



## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> Bear, I'd appreciate your feedback. Yesterday--which was sunny and warm--I had my MES 30 Gen 1 warming up to a set point of 250°. After placing the BBQ probe of my ET-733 inside the smoker I saw the temp shoot up to 300-302°. When I lowered the set point to 220° and opened the door to let the heat and closed it again, it shot up to 300° again. This was happening while I was letting my AMNPS heat up on the ground outside the smoker. The final time I set it at 220° it went up to 252° and stayed there until I reduced the temp to 190° after leaving the door open and closing it again, and the temp stayed about 217°. I put in 4 ribeye steaks along with the AMNPS and the controller temp stayed solid at 220°. I wound up bumping the temp up to 250° because I was afraid the steaks would take too long to get to 95° IT. As it turned out they got up there more quickly than I figured, slightly before the coals in my Weber kettle charcoal grill were ready. I let the steaks go up to 117° IT before pulling them from the smoker.
> 
> I made sure I again cleaned the hi temp shutoff switch which had been clean before I turned the smoker on. I've read your posts on how the MES controller works but I don't understand why the temp got so high in the empty smoker and then settled down just before I put the steaks and the AMNPS in. Once I got the temp stabilized I had no further problems with my MES. It performed great as always.


Bear, I'd appreciate your feedback. Yesterday--which was sunny and warm--I had my MES 30 Gen 1 warming up to a set point of 250°. After placing the BBQ probe of my ET-733 inside the smoker I saw the temp shoot up to 300-302°. *Did you go right to 250° Non-stop from the start?* When I lowered the set point to 220° and opened the door to let the heat and closed it again, it shot up to 300° again. *How long did you have the door open?* This was happening while I was letting my AMNPS heat up on the ground outside the smoker. The final time I set it at 220° it went up to 252° and stayed there until I reduced the temp to 190° *Your saying it went to 252°, and didn't come down to the 220° temp setting??? For how long was this? *after leaving the door open and closing it again, and the temp stayed about 217°. I put in 4 ribeye steaks along with the AMNPS and the controller temp stayed solid at 220°. I wound up bumping the temp up to 250° because I was afraid the steaks would take too long to get to 95° IT. As it turned out they got up there more quickly than I figured, slightly before the coals in my Weber kettle charcoal grill were ready. I let the steaks go up to 117° IT before pulling them from the smoker.

I made sure I again cleaned the hi temp shutoff switch which had been clean before I turned the smoker on. I've read your posts on how the MES controller works but I don't understand why the temp got so high in the empty smoker and then settled down just before I put the steaks and the AMNPS in. Once I got the temp stabilized I had no further problems with my MES. It performed great as always.

*First of all if it's hot out, and you set your MES for 250° right from the start, it can over-run to 300°, however you shouldn't have to turn your setting down to 220° and open the door to get the heat down. Unless there's something wrong with your control, it will get back down to your setting eventually without changing your setting. It may take awhile because the whole inside was at 300°, so it takes awhile to cool down.*

*I wish I knew exactly what you did, because it depends on how long you opened the door. If you only opened it for a minute or so, then closed the door, it could go back to 300° because everything inside is still at 300°, but if you opened the door long enough to get the whole thing down to 220°, there's no way it should go back to 300°. I don't care how hot it is, the sun isn't going to take it up to 300°.*

*Why did you set it at 250° to smoke a Steak??*

*There's a lot of things you didn't tell me here.*

*Bear*


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> Nice post, thanks Bear.  I was going to post something similar asking questions about the overrun.  I noticed at one point yesterday my temps were coasting all the way up to 250F.  I went the check on the smoker, and the afternoon sun had come out and was beating my black Cabelas model.  I had to dial it down a bit, but the overun was like 30F and the underrun was like 5F.  It's tricky.
> 
> I reckon if our chip loaders were sealed, we would have greater stability (i.e. less wind).  Also, the AMPS adds heat when burning so probably explains the overruns.
> 
> But I think there are so many variables like wind, sun, humidity etc, its hard to say.  You just have to watch your controlled and get a feel for it.  THATS WHY I AM STARTING TO LOVE THE BLUETOOTH.  I can change the temp from inside the house.  Very cool.
> 
> On another note, I think an iGrill with charts would come in really handy to see if you have been having overuns like I was in the 250F range for how long, 10min, 1 hour?  I couldnt be sure.  Charts would be really helpful.


When you're talking about Temps in the 250° range, the AMNPS has nothing to do with any over-run.

Bear


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Bear, I'd appreciate your feedback. Yesterday--which was sunny and warm--I had my MES 30 Gen 1 warming up to a set point of 250°. After placing the BBQ probe of my ET-733 inside the smoker I saw the temp shoot up to 300-302°. *Did you go right to 250° Non-stop from the start?* When I lowered the set point to 220° and opened the door to let the heat and closed it again, it shot up to 300° again. *How long did you have the door open?* This was happening while I was letting my AMNPS heat up on the ground outside the smoker. The final time I set it at 220° it went up to 252° and stayed there until I reduced the temp to 190° *Your saying it went to 252°, and didn't come down to the 220° temp setting??? For how long was this? *after leaving the door open and closing it again, and the temp stayed about 217°. I put in 4 ribeye steaks along with the AMNPS and the controller temp stayed solid at 220°. I wound up bumping the temp up to 250° because I was afraid the steaks would take too long to get to 95° IT. As it turned out they got up there more quickly than I figured, slightly before the coals in my Weber kettle charcoal grill were ready. I let the steaks go up to 117° IT before pulling them from the smoker.
> 
> I made sure I again cleaned the hi temp shutoff switch which had been clean before I turned the smoker on. I've read your posts on how the MES controller works but I don't understand why the temp got so high in the empty smoker and then settled down just before I put the steaks and the AMNPS in. Once I got the temp stabilized I had no further problems with my MES. It performed great as always.
> 
> *First of all if it's hot out, and you set your MES for 250° right from the start, it can over-run to 300°, however you shouldn't have to turn your setting down to 220° and open the door to get the heat down. Unless there's something wrong with your control, it will get back down to your setting eventually without changing your setting. It may take awhile because the whole inside was at 300°, so it takes awhile to cool down.*
> 
> *I wish I knew exactly what you did, because it depends on how long you opened the door. If you only opened it for a minute or so, then closed the door, it could go back to 300° because everything inside is still at 300°, but if you opened the door long enough to get the whole thing down to 220°, there's no way it should go back to 300°. I don't care how hot it is, the sun isn't going to take it up to 300°.*
> 
> *Why did you set it at 250° to smoke a Steak??*
> 
> *There's a lot of things you didn't tell me here.*
> 
> *Bear*


A lot of things I didn't tell you? How am I to know what you're going to ask???

The temp shot up to 300° several times while I was doing other things. I was hoping it was just the natural over-run but I didn't have time to experiment. I had to get the steaks in the smoker by certain time so that when they were at the proper IT I could transfer them to my charcoal grill (which I hadn't yet lit the coals for). I figured that just by lowering the controller temp that would reduce the heat but it was happening too slowly and I was on a tight time schedule. That's why I opened the door a couple of times.

When I lowered the controller temp I didn't see it move down from 302 but then I didn't take much time to wait on it. But, Bear, I told you everything I did. I left the door open long enough to watch the temp reduce down to the low 200s both times I left the door open. The first time I closed it again and had the controller on 235° it shot up to 300°. I was worried it was pulling the same thing it did when I was smoking a chuckie last year.

My feeling is that when you've got a metal smoker outside in the hot sun the outside heat is going to add to the interior heat somewhat. I think cold smoking on a hot summer's day has to be different from cold smoking on a cold winter's day. I thought perhaps the problem might be that the smoker was empty with nothing to work as a heat sink but that didn't make sense. Anyway the smoke temp stayed at 252° until I both lowered the controller down to about 200° and kept the door open for the interior heat to drop down to about that same temp. What still confuses me is why the smoker temp shot back up to 300° after I had left the door open for about a minute to lower the interior temp down to the low 200s, lowered the controller temp to 235° and then closed the door? I still don't understand all about how the controller works during the heat up phase. All I know is that I eventually got the set point I wanted before I put the steaks in.

I first chose a set point of 250° because I didn't know how long it would take to raise the steaks' IT to 95°. I had no idea if it would take an hour or two or three. But I decided 250 was too high so I lowered it to 220° which is where it finally stayed until I bumped it back up. Then I saw the FOOD probe showing the meat IT rising more quickly than I had figured and realized it doesn't take that long to smoke ribeye steaks in a smoker. Again, this was my first time and I was trying to adapt your step-by-step for smoking a ribeye roast to smoking 4 ribeye steaks. I knew going into the smoke that there's a great difference between a roast and four steaks but I thought I could make the adjustment, which I pretty much did since the steaks looked the way I wanted them to when I pulled them out.

I would say that next time I'll do it differently but there won't be a next time. I'm strictly grilling steaks and forgetting about reverse searing from now on. Way too much trouble--but it was a great experiment. Turns out I overcooked my steak on the grill and not in the smoker. I'm also going to test the controller by setting it to 250°, seeing how high it goes, and what happens when I reduce the heat. I know that the controller always overshoots the set point by 30 degrees or so during the warm up cycle but I want to run a test when I'm not pressed for time. It _was_ Father's Day, you know, and dinner for the family was on me!


----------



## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> I lot of things I didn't tell you? How am I to know what you're going to ask??? *My only point was I can't tell you why something happened or what to do about it if I don't know what actually happened. (All the details)*
> 
> The temp shot up to 300° several times while I was doing other things. I was hoping it was just the natural over-run but I didn't have time to experiment. I had to get the steaks in the smoker by certain time so that when they were at the proper IT I could transfer them to my charcoal grill (which I hadn't yet lit the coals for). I figured that just by lowering the controller temp that would reduce the heat but it was happening too slowly and I was on a tight time schedule. That's why I opened the door a couple of times.
> 
> When I lowered the controller temp I didn't see it move down from 302 but then I didn't take much time to wait on it. But, Bear, I told you everything I did. I left the door open long enough to watch the temp reduce down to the low 200s both times I left the door open. The first time I closed it again and had the controller on 235° it shot up to 300°. *That should not happen. That shows a problem with the smoker. *I was worried it was pulling the same thing it did when I was smoking a chuckie last year.
> 
> My feeling is that when you've got a metal smoker outside in the hot sun the outside heat is going to add to the interior heat somewhat. *The Sun could take a smoker up to 100° if it's 100° out, but it could never take it above the setting if the setting is above higher temps, like 150°, 250°, 300°. All the sun could do is maybe help get the temp to the set temp, but it wouldn't take the temp above that temp.* I think cold smoking on a hot summer's day has to be different from cold smoking on a cold winter's day. *Of course, but that has nothing to do with a smoker going to 300°.* I thought perhaps the problem might be that the smoker was empty with nothing to work as a heat sink but that didn't make sense. Anyway the smoke temp stayed at 252° until I both lowered the controller down to about 200° and kept the door open for the interior heat to drop down to about that same temp. What still confuses me is why the smoker temp shot back up to 300° after I had left the door open for about a minute to lower the interior temp down to the low 200s, lowered the controller temp to 235° and then closed the door? *That confuses me too, which makes me think your controller has intermittent problems.* I still don't understand all about how the controller works during the heat up phase. All I know is that I eventually got the set point I wanted before I put the steaks in.
> 
> I first chose a set point of 250° because I didn't know how long it would take to raise the steaks' IT to 95°. I had no idea if it would take an hour or two or three. But I decided 250 was too high so I lowered it to 220° which is where it finally stayed until I bumped it back up. Then I saw the FOOD probe showing the meat IT rising more quickly than I had figured and realized it doesn't take that long to smoke ribeye steaks in a smoker. Again, this was my first time and I was trying to adapt your step-by-step for smoking a ribeye roast to smoking 4 ribeye steaks.* If you look at the PM I sent you on June 18, I told you for steaks I would smoke them at 150° so they don't get done too fast, and I told you the 220° and above I used was only for larger things like a Prime Rib Roast. Then you set it for 250° anyway.* I knew going into the smoke that there's a great difference between a roast and four steaks but I thought I could make the adjustment, which I pretty much did since the steaks looked the way I wanted them to when I pulled them out.
> 
> I would say that next time I'll do it differently but there won't be a next time. I'm strictly grilling steaks and forgetting about reverse searing from now on. Way too much trouble--but it was a great experiment. Turns out I overcooked my steak on the grill and not in the smoker. I'm also going to test the controller by setting it to 250°, seeing how high it goes, and what happens when I reduce the heat. I know that the controller always overshoots the set point by 30 degrees or so during the warm up cycle but I want to run a test when I'm not pressed for time. It _was_ Father's Day, you know, and dinner for the family was on me! *There you go---Good tests to do after that fiasco. I would do those tests too. There's no way it should go back up to 300 when set at 220°.*


*Bear*


----------



## ostrichsak

Bearcarver said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I worded my response properly if you felt it was directed at you or your posts.  No need to reread because I agree with your fix 100% as a workaround.  What I was disagreeing with what the other post saying that the equipment was fine.  It is not.  If it was then your workaround wouldn't be necessary.  So, as this device is currently constituted I'm not saying anything negative about your work around.  My point was that if the device was engineered properly to begin with a band-aid fix wouldn't be necessary because it would simply reach desired temp (or at least MUCH closer to it) and then stay there.  The problem lies in the pairing of the heating element with the factory controller.  There is essentially no heat anticipatior to prevent the overrun to begin with and then the cycle is set low enough that it then allows it to dip too far below set temp before it kicks on.  Of course all of this is easier for the hardware to manage once everything is up to temp because the requirements are much lower.  Basically they need a heating element that warms quicker and a controller that anticipates heat overshoots to cancel calling for heat before the desired temp is ever reached.  It's a clear cutting of corners from a financial standpoint by MB because we're talking about technology that is found in $20 heating thermostats.  If they put a little bit more R&D and cost into those parts this could be a stellar device that didn't require such inputs to reach & maintain the preset temp.  That's all I'm saying so don't misunderstand it to have anything negative to do with your post because your post is indeed the solution assuming we never get proper hardware for these devices which is likely.  My post was in response to someone saying that your post somehow proves that the device was designed properly when it doesn't change the fact that it was poorly engineered or we wouldn't need your post to begin with.
> 
> Does that make more sense?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know what you're saying, but if you want something that will anticipate, you need a PID.
> 
> A big part of the over-run on the way up is because everything around the element that's metal heats up well above the air temp where your sensor is. Then when the element shuts off, that heat makes it's way around the whole smoker, including the heat sensors, raising the temp reading. My method of shutting the element off before it gets to the set temp is utilizing the heated up parts around the element to finish the run to what you really want your smoker to be at.
> 
> The small over-runs after using my fix don't bother me, because even in my meat curing fridge, the air temp runs from about 29° to 45° in order to keep the meat temp at exactly 37°.
> 
> Bear
Click to expand...

You just made my point for me.  You agree that there is a controller that could be equipped that would work better than what MB chose to equip these smokers with.  This is exactly my point and you agree with me you just won't admit it.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Rather than the bare bones controller they chose to run this smoker they could have chose a controller with more robust firmware.  The cost to do so from a manufacturer standpoint would have been negligible at most.  The fact of the matter is they took serious hits in quality in the name of saving pennies.  The result is a smoker that requires you to use band-aid work-arounds to avoid substantial temperature swings which shouldn't be an issue to address in the first place.  Like I said, this thread is a great way to address the problem but the problem still remains and it's a problem that could be avoided easily from a manufacturing standpoint which is my point.  Masterbuilt should have given us a smoker with an acceptable controller and not this bare bones basic one-temp controller that has zero fuzzy logic.  Hell, my aquarium heater has more complex firmware/control and that's not saying much.  

I'm thankful for this post as it's a work-around I will use while I continue to use my MB smoker but at the same time I'm planning to make the move to something else because I don't feel that MB really cares to address the problem at hand and continue to put out inferior products to maximize their profits at the cost of customer experience which in turn ultimately hurts the smoking hobby.


daRicksta said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then how can you disagree when this is half of my premise about the hardware with the heating element being the other half?
> 
> 
> 
> Because I'm disagreeing with you solely on your assessment of the problem with the MES controller. To me, the heater analogy is irrelevant, especially since I also don't see that behavior with the heaters I use in my home.
> 
> I also know that there have been problems with individual MES units. All I can speak to his my own experience and similar positive experiences that have been posted by others. But in a way I guess it's as wrong for me to make a blanket statement saying there's no problem with any MES controller as for you to make a blanket statement saying Masterbuilt has a problem. I've been on SMF long enough to know that Masterbuilt has shipped both good and bad units. I think you can tell when there's been a run of bad ones by how readily customer service ships out free replacements with no hassles in certain situations.
> 
> But per my post in a thread I started elsewhere I am no longer supporting or promoting Masterbuilt smokers.
Click to expand...

It's not irrelevant because it's nearly the exact same principal.  You have a space calling for a specific temperature and a device who's purpose is to read the current temperature and call for heat from a secondary unit until the desired temperature is met.  It's nearly identical in every way so simply stating that it's irrelevant doesn't make it so.

You also say that you haven't seen this behavior and that's also a big point that I'm trying to make.  When it works properly it's not something you're aware of because it just works.  If you have a digital stat look up how to access the service menu which usually takes a series of secret button presses in a certain order because you can really screw things up unless you're a trained professional.  These settings are usually set at the factory (just like MB could) and are close enough that 99% of users will never know it's happening behind the scenes... it just happens.  End user sets a temperature and walks away w/o having to first set a temperature at a lower point and wait and then adjust it higher after a day or two and then adjust it again and then finally they can set it at a desired temperature where it will remain moving forward.  How silly would that be if you had to do that band-aid work-around in your home?  Would you get another thermostat if it would swing temperatures (assuming all other components of your HVAC system are working properly) 20% or more the way this controller does?  Of course you would.  If your home temperature swung 15 deg (20%) one way and then the other (so we're talking between 55deg & 85deg here if your desired temp is 70deg) you would say that thermostat was defective and you would throw it in the trash and buy a new one w/o giving it a second though.  So tell me why that doesn't apply here?


----------



## Bearcarver

Ostrichsak said:


> You just made my point for me.  You agree that there is a controller that could be equipped that would work better than what MB chose to equip these smokers with.  This is exactly my point and you agree with me you just won't admit it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than the bare bones controller they chose to run this smoker they could have chose a controller with more robust firmware.  The cost to do so from a manufacturer standpoint would have been negligible at most.  The fact of the matter is they took serious hits in quality in the name of saving pennies.  The result is a smoker that requires you to use band-aid work-arounds to avoid substantial temperature swings which shouldn't be an issue to address in the first place.  Like I said, this thread is a great way to address the problem but the problem still remains and it's a problem that could be avoided easily from a manufacturing standpoint which is my point.  Masterbuilt should have given us a smoker with an acceptable controller and not this bare bones basic one-temp controller that has zero fuzzy logic.  Hell, my aquarium heater has more complex firmware/control and that's not saying much.
> 
> I'm thankful for this post as it's a work-around I will use while I continue to use my MB smoker but at the same time I'm planning to make the move to something else because I don't feel that MB really cares to address the problem at hand and continue to put out inferior products to maximize their profits at the cost of customer experience which in turn ultimately hurts the smoking hobby.
> 
> It's not irrelevant because it's nearly the exact same principal.  You have a space calling for a specific temperature and a device who's purpose is to read the current temperature and call for heat from a secondary unit until the desired temperature is met.  It's nearly identical in every way so simply stating that it's irrelevant doesn't make it so.
> 
> You also say that you haven't seen this behavior and that's also a big point that I'm trying to make.  When it works properly it's not something you're aware of because it just works.  If you have a digital stat look up how to access the service menu which usually takes a series of secret button presses in a certain order because you can really screw things up unless you're a trained professional.  These settings are usually set at the factory (just like MB could) and are close enough that 99% of users will never know it's happening behind the scenes... it just happens.  End user sets a temperature and walks away w/o having to first set a temperature at a lower point and wait and then adjust it higher after a day or two and then adjust it again and then finally they can set it at a desired temperature where it will remain moving forward.  How silly would that be if you had to do that band-aid work-around in your home?  Would you get another thermostat if it would swing temperatures (assuming all other components of your HVAC system are working properly) 20% or more the way this controller does?  Of course you would.  If your home temperature swung 15 deg (20%) one way and then the other (so we're talking between 55deg & 85deg here if your desired temp is 70deg) you would say that thermostat was defective and you would throw it in the trash and buy a new one w/o giving it a second though.  So tell me why that doesn't apply here?


LOL---I never said you can't get better controls. The ones they use in the MES are fine for what we pay for the smoker.

I said if you want something that can anticipate you need something better, like a PID.

I didn't start this thread to argue that MB could put a $100 PID in, so this thread would be worthless.

Like most of my threads, I posted this thread to help people to deal with what they have. If you want something better, buy it, because telling people these controls are no good does nobody any good.

Meanwhile Tell me which electric smoker you can get for the price of an MES smoker that has better controls. Or which HVAC can you get for under $400?

Bear


----------



## mummel

I agree with OP.  There should be some sort of firmware involved that learns how far the MES is coasting at any given point in time and make adjustments.  That would be valuable to consumers.


----------



## ostrichsak

Bearcarver said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just made my point for me.  You agree that there is a controller that could be equipped that would work better than what MB chose to equip these smokers with.  This is exactly my point and you agree with me you just won't admit it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than the bare bones controller they chose to run this smoker they could have chose a controller with more robust firmware.  The cost to do so from a manufacturer standpoint would have been negligible at most.  The fact of the matter is they took serious hits in quality in the name of saving pennies.  The result is a smoker that requires you to use band-aid work-arounds to avoid substantial temperature swings which shouldn't be an issue to address in the first place.  Like I said, this thread is a great way to address the problem but the problem still remains and it's a problem that could be avoided easily from a manufacturing standpoint which is my point.  Masterbuilt should have given us a smoker with an acceptable controller and not this bare bones basic one-temp controller that has zero fuzzy logic.  Hell, my aquarium heater has more complex firmware/control and that's not saying much.
> 
> I'm thankful for this post as it's a work-around I will use while I continue to use my MB smoker but at the same time I'm planning to make the move to something else because I don't feel that MB really cares to address the problem at hand and continue to put out inferior products to maximize their profits at the cost of customer experience which in turn ultimately hurts the smoking hobby.
> 
> It's not irrelevant because it's nearly the exact same principal.  You have a space calling for a specific temperature and a device who's purpose is to read the current temperature and call for heat from a secondary unit until the desired temperature is met.  It's nearly identical in every way so simply stating that it's irrelevant doesn't make it so.
> 
> You also say that you haven't seen this behavior and that's also a big point that I'm trying to make.  When it works properly it's not something you're aware of because it just works.  If you have a digital stat look up how to access the service menu which usually takes a series of secret button presses in a certain order because you can really screw things up unless you're a trained professional.  These settings are usually set at the factory (just like MB could) and are close enough that 99% of users will never know it's happening behind the scenes... it just happens.  End user sets a temperature and walks away w/o having to first set a temperature at a lower point and wait and then adjust it higher after a day or two and then adjust it again and then finally they can set it at a desired temperature where it will remain moving forward.  How silly would that be if you had to do that band-aid work-around in your home?  Would you get another thermostat if it would swing temperatures (assuming all other components of your HVAC system are working properly) 20% or more the way this controller does?  Of course you would.  If your home temperature swung 15 deg (20%) one way and then the other (so we're talking between 55deg & 85deg here if your desired temp is 70deg) you would say that thermostat was defective and you would throw it in the trash and buy a new one w/o giving it a second though.  So tell me why that doesn't apply here?
> 
> 
> 
> LOL---I never said you can't get better controls. The ones they use in the MES are fine for what we pay for the smoker.
> 
> I said if you want something that can anticipate you need something better, like a PID.
> 
> I didn't start this thread to argue that MB could put a $100 PID in, so this thread would be worthless.
> 
> Like most of my threads, I posted this thread to help people to deal with what they have. If you want something better, buy it, because telling people these controls are no good does nobody any good.
> 
> Meanwhile Tell me which electric smoker you can get for the price of an MES smoker that has better controls. Or which HVAC can you get for under $400?
> 
> Bear
Click to expand...

I get why you started this thread but I don't get why you appear to be hell bent on starting an argument with me over something as simple as what MB should have done.  I'm not saying they would have put a $100 PID in the MES because they wouldn't need to to rectify the situation.  All they would need to do is modify the firmware that is included in their existing controller to include fuzzy logic to better account for temperatures.  That's it.  Pretty simple actually and the cost to the manufacturer would be negligible.  When I said negligible earlier I meant negligible and NOT $100 added to the bottom line.  We're talking in the ballpark of a few bucks per unit sold spread out over all of the models since it would effectively use the same firmware designs they created.  I feel that the basis of your argument is that it would require a $100 hike in the final price of the units and that's simply not the case.  Agreeing that MB could probably do better with not much more added to their budget doesn't in anyway negate your thread.


----------



## Bearcarver

Ostrichsak said:


> I get why you started this thread but I don't get why you appear to be hell bent on starting an argument with me over something as simple as what MB should have done.  I'm not saying they would have put a $100 PID in the MES because they wouldn't need to to rectify the situation.  All they would need to do is modify the firmware that is included in their existing controller to include fuzzy logic to better account for temperatures.  That's it.  Pretty simple actually and the cost to the manufacturer would be negligible.  When I said negligible earlier I meant negligible and NOT $100 added to the bottom line.  We're talking in the ballpark of a few bucks per unit sold spread out over all of the models since it would effectively use the same firmware designs they created.  I feel that the basis of your argument is that it would require a $100 hike in the final price of the units and that's simply not the case.  Agreeing that MB could probably do better with not much more added to their budget doesn't in anyway negate your thread.


This is the last I'll reply to this line of discussion:







This thread was designed to help people use what they have. If it's more important to you to have MB change the way they do things, call them. You already ruined this thread, with things that help nobody to keep their temps from making big swings. All this back & forth about why they used parts they used is helping nobody.

Thanks a lot,

Bear


----------



## ostrichsak

Bearcarver said:


> Ostrichsak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get why you started this thread but I don't get why you appear to be hell bent on starting an argument with me over something as simple as what MB should have done.  I'm not saying they would have put a $100 PID in the MES because they wouldn't need to to rectify the situation.  All they would need to do is modify the firmware that is included in their existing controller to include fuzzy logic to better account for temperatures.  That's it.  Pretty simple actually and the cost to the manufacturer would be negligible.  When I said negligible earlier I meant negligible and NOT $100 added to the bottom line.  We're talking in the ballpark of a few bucks per unit sold spread out over all of the models since it would effectively use the same firmware designs they created.  I feel that the basis of your argument is that it would require a $100 hike in the final price of the units and that's simply not the case.  Agreeing that MB could probably do better with not much more added to their budget doesn't in anyway negate your thread.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the last I'll reply to this line of discussion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread was designed to help people use what they have. If it's more important to you to have MB change the way they do things, call them. You already ruined this thread, with things that help nobody to keep their temps from making big swings. All this back & forth about why they used parts they used is helping nobody.
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Bear
Click to expand...

With all due respect you ruined this thread by turning this into something it never was.  I thanked you for your post, said I would use that as a work-around for my existing unit and then mentioned that MB could have easily prevented this with proper firmware.  Why you felt the need to turn it into an argument (somehow defending MB in their lazy approach to smoking controllers) is beyond me.  All I did was state the obvious about how MB should have spent a LITTLE more time on developing the firmware for this and all their MES line and we wouldn't have this issue.  Simple agreement would have been fine but you felt the need to turn this into an argument.  Not me.

I guess you disagree that if MB would include a better controller it wouldn't make all of our lives easier?  Otherwise, why would you argue with me in the first place?


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> *Bear*


@Bearcarver, I knew my humor wouldn't translate into writing. I was afraid that my statement "A lot of things I didn't tell you? How am I to know what you're going to ask???" would be taken seriously. I meant it to be stupidly absurd. I should have put a smiley face after it. I just saw all that you went through with Ostrichsak although I really didn't read any of it because it looks like it spiraled out of control and get very heated. I picked the wrong time to try to be funny with you.

I'll be smoking a brisket next week and I'll see then if there's a controller problem or not if the temp skyrockets again during the heatup. I'm afraid you're right, my controller might have intermittent problems and intermittent electrical or electronic problems tend to grow into chronic problems until the component fails.

Regarding the PM you sent me about cooking at 150° I think I missed it and I'm very sorry that I did because it would have made a difference. I thought I read all your PMs to me but either I missed that one or I skimmed over it somehow. Sometimes when there's a lot going on in the room where my computer is I'll get distracted. As for boosting the cooking temp to 250°, I realized it was too high for the steaks but I was trying to bring the IT up to 95° more quickly. I thought it would take 2-3 hours but it wound up taking less than an hour. My other excuse is that on that morning I was a bit stressed, concerned that I wouldn't be able to pull off dinner. I was really worried that I had made things too complicated and that I had bitten off more than I could chew--and I'm not only talking about the steak! But it did all work out and everyone enjoyed the meal and Father's Day turned out wonderfully well.

I apologize if you thought I was also picking a fight with you. I credit you with my doing as well as I did with the steaks but I curse myself for missing or overlooking your advice about cooking at 150°. Darn it all, Bear! I demand a rematch with ribeye steaks because I know next time it'll be easier and I'll nail medium rare for my son and I. I'll just ruin my wife's and daughter's steaks (medium to medium well) as per usual.


----------



## mummel

Bear, how many cycles does it take, or how long does it take, for the temps to settle into a reasonable range, say +- 10F of 225F, if you just set it at 225F and leave it.  30min?  45min?


----------



## driedstick

Thanks Bear this helps a great bunch I will try it on my next smoke

A full smoker is a happy smoker 
 

DS


----------



## daricksta

mummel said:


> Bear, how many cycles does it take, or how long does it take, for the temps to settle into a reasonable range, say +- 10F of 225F, if you just set it at 225F and leave it.  30min?  45min?


Mummel, I'm not Bear but I've recently had this discussion with Jted and with Bear. Jted said that at about the 3-hour mark the temp should more or less stabilize (I'm _really_ paraphrasing his words here) and from my personal experience I agree with him. In fact, after that point I've seen the controller remain at the set point--with a few degrees either way--for the rest of the smoke. Remember that I've got a MES 30 Gen 1. Your experience with your smoker may be different, especially if you have a MES 40 and a different generation. But this is what I've observed the past 5 times or so I've smoked.


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> *Avoid Temp Swings in MES*   (By Bear)
> 
> *How I avoid much of the annoying heat over-running (Temp Swings):*
> 
> A lot of MES owners complain about the wide cycling spreads they get for awhile at the beginning of a Smoke.
> 
> The following method I use should work with all MES units, and probably any other electric smoker without a PID set-up.
> 
> When you start an MES by preheating it to a set temp it will run all the way to that set temp before the heating element shuts off. This could take in the area of one half hour. Then the heat will continue to rise for a while. I call that “Coasting”. The longer the run either up or down, the farther it will Coast.
> 
> In other words, if you want your smoker to be at 230°, and you set it at 230°, it will shut off at 230°, but depending on things like Ambient Temp, Wind, etc, etc the heat in the smoker could Coast up to 240°, 250° or sometimes even more. Then once it stops Coasting, the temp will eventually begin to fall, and continue to fall until it hits one or two degrees below your temp setting, and then the element comes on. Then since it just had another relatively long run coming down from the over-run you just had above 230°, it will now continue to fall below the set point after the element comes on. It may fall down as low as 20° or more below your set point before the temp of the smoker begins to rise again.
> 
> This over-running can continue for a good number of heating & cooling cycles, before it settles down to only over-running a few degrees above and below your set point.
> 
> The best way I have found to avoid this annoying problem is as follows:
> 
> If you want your smoker to be 230° inside, set your control at 215°. Then let it run & shut off at 215°. Then watch how far it Coasts above 215° before it stops & begins to fall. If it runs to 230° or above, change your setting to 230°. Now that it won’t be dropping a long way before reaching the set point, it also won’t over-run much below the set point after the heating element comes on. Then since it won’t be making a long run to get back up to 230°, it won’t over-run much above that 230° shut-off point.
> 
> This will cut way down on the Over-running above & below your set point in a much shorter time than it would without playing this little game.
> 
> Also if on that first run up, it only Coasts to 225° instead of 230°, just slide your heat setting up to 223° or 224°, and catch it at 230° on the next cycle.
> 
> Once you do this for a few smokes you’ll be able to fine tune it. I have it more fine tuned than the above, but it would take too long to explain it in type.
> 
> Note: For those of us who live in the North, you will learn that the heating tends to over-run in the Upward direction more in the Summer than in the Winter, and it will Over-run more in the Downward direction in the Winter than in the Summer.
> 
> I hope this helps some of those who don’t like seeing the big Temp Swings in their Electric Smokers.
> 
> Bear


I've made a management decision. Instead of waiting for you or someone else to bump this post I'm copy/pasting the text to a Word doc and saving it to my hard drive. This is tremendously helpful info and using my method I'll always know where it is. I hope to hell that you haven't copyrighted it...

Cheers, Bear!


----------



## mummel

Thanks.  Yeah 3 hours would be really insane to get stable temps.  I could live with 30min, but 3 hours in you're basically done with your ribs.  I need to document the swings in my MES 40 next time.  This is where that iGrill chart would come in really handy.


----------



## daricksta

mummel said:


> Thanks.  Yeah 3 hours would be really insane to get stable temps.  I could live with 30min, but 3 hours in you're basically done with your ribs.  I need to document the swings in my MES 40 next time.  This is where that iGrill chart would come in really handy.


I smoke my ribs for 6 hours. At a set point between 225-235° no way would they be done in my smoker in 3 hours. But if you're smoking at 250° and higher that would speed things up.

It could also be two hours when the temp stabilizes. I'll take a definitive stand and say 2-3 hours just to be safe. No fewer nor more than that, from my observation.


----------



## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> @Bearcarver, I knew my humor wouldn't translate into writing. I was afraid that my statement "A lot of things I didn't tell you? How am I to know what you're going to ask???" would be taken seriously. I meant it to be stupidly absurd. I should have put a smiley face after it. I just saw all that you went through with Ostrichsak although I really didn't read any of it because it looks like it spiraled out of control and get very heated. I picked the wrong time to try to be funny with you.
> 
> I'll be smoking a brisket next week and I'll see then if there's a controller problem or not if the temp skyrockets again during the heatup. I'm afraid you're right, my controller might have intermittent problems and intermittent electrical or electronic problems tend to grow into chronic problems until the component fails.
> 
> Regarding the PM you sent me about cooking at 150° I think I missed it and I'm very sorry that I did because it would have made a difference. I thought I read all your PMs to me but either I missed that one or I skimmed over it somehow. Sometimes when there's a lot going on in the room where my computer is I'll get distracted. As for boosting the cooking temp to 250°, I realized it was too high for the steaks but I was trying to bring the IT up to 95° more quickly. I thought it would take 2-3 hours but it wound up taking less than an hour. My other excuse is that on that morning I was a bit stressed, concerned that I wouldn't be able to pull off dinner. I was really worried that I had made things too complicated and that I had bitten off more than I could chew--and I'm not only talking about the steak! But it did all work out and everyone enjoyed the meal and Father's Day turned out wonderfully well.
> 
> I apologize if you thought I was also picking a fight with you. I credit you with my doing as well as I did with the steaks but I curse myself for missing or overlooking your advice about cooking at 150°. Darn it all, Bear! I demand a rematch with ribeye steaks because I know next time it'll be easier and I'll nail medium rare for my son and I. I'll just ruin my wife's and daughter's steaks (medium to medium well) as per usual.


No problem Rick---I wasn't mad at you for kidding around, because I know your sense of humor. I was a little disappointed that when you mentioned in a PM about using my Step by Step on Prime Rib for single steaks, I said NO----that temp's only for roasts---Use about 150° or it will get done too soon, and you missed that, and went right to 250°.

Bear


mummel said:


> Bear, how many cycles does it take, or how long does it take, for the temps to settle into a reasonable range, say +- 10F of 225F, if you just set it at 225F and leave it.  30min?  45min?


Without doing anything, it's hard to say, because of a lot of variables, plus it's been a long time since I started this method. I just never posted it, because maybe somebody would bring other things into the thread & get it all botched up. Imagine me thinking that.

The only answer I can give you from my recent memory is if you use my method it will cut those swings down to very little time.

Bear

BTW Guys: Sorry it took awhile to get back to you guys, but I had a Dr Appointment 15 miles away, and now we got a serious thunder storm & Tornado threats until 7 PM.


----------



## Bearcarver

driedstick said:


> Thanks Bear this helps a great bunch I will try it on my next smoke
> 
> A full smoker is a happy smoker
> 
> 
> DS


Thanks DS !!

I think you'll like the way it works.

Bear


----------



## mummel

We also had tornado warnings up here in Mass.


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> We also had tornado warnings up here in Mass.


Yup I saw that !!

There was a Box that contained most of PA, and another one that contained most of NY City & most of New England.

It's kinda rare for us to get Tornadoes around here---Knock on wood!!

Bear


----------



## mummel

Bear, here are my findings:

-ambient temp of 63F with 71% RH

-set smoker to 215F

-when my Maverick hit 215F, I turned off the smoker (the MES display said it was at 195F, thats a huge diffs..... explains a lot of the over swing in the beginning, as it vastly overheats)

-the temps on my Mav topped out at 235F

-quickly turned on my smoker again and set it to 225F, smoker temp said 205F

-smoker continued to them heat until 225F, and my Mav said the temps were 255F at this point

-heat then coasted until smoker temp was 236F and Mav said 264F (a big diffs)

-I then opened the door to put the BCBs in, smoker temp dropped to 220F with Mav saying 212F

-it took 2 minuted for my Mav temps to hit 225 from 212F (not bad at all)

-Smoker temp was back to 225F 6 minutes later, then Mav temp said 250F

Im currently watching the temps and I must say, it probably takes a good 1h for the temps to stabilize.  The MES cooks at WAAAAYYYY too high temps in the beginning of your smoke.  Preheating and babying the temps seems like a prerequisite before putting in your meat. 

1 hour later = Mav temp topping out at 253F and bottoming out at 212F with the smoker temp set to 225F.  Still cooking on the high side.

Bear whats the best way to stop the MES from cooking your meat at too high temps for the first 1.5 hours?  Maybe set the smoker to 215F for the first hour?  Then bump it up to 225F?  The other day I set my smoker to 225F, put in my AMPS, turned it on, and went to the store.  I can only imagine my ribs cooking at 300F for first 30 minutes.....  What the heck!


----------



## floridasteve

Mummel, what was the location of your Maveric probe?


----------



## mummel

Right next to the MES probe :(


----------



## floridasteve

Do you mean the heat probe that hangs on the left side of rack three? Or the button sensor that sits above rack four?    I have always seen a huge difference between the display temperature and the meat probe temperature. Doesn't make sense. Next time I started I think I'll place the  meat probe right next to that button sensor and see what the difference is.


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> Bear, here are my findings:
> 
> -ambient temp of 63F with 71% RH
> 
> -set smoker to 215F
> 
> -when my Maverick hit 215F, I turned off the smoker (the MES display said it was at 195F, thats a huge diffs..... explains a lot of the over swing in the beginning, as it vastly overheats)
> 
> -the temps on my Mav topped out at 235F
> 
> -quickly turned on my smoker again and set it to 225F, smoker temp said 205F
> 
> -smoker continued to them heat until 225F, and my Mav said the temps were 255F at this point
> 
> -heat then coasted until smoker temp was 236F and Mav said 264F (a big diffs)
> 
> -I then opened the door to put the BCBs in, smoker temp dropped to 220F with Mav saying 212F
> 
> -it took 2 minuted for my Mav temps to hit 225 from 212F (not bad at all)
> 
> -Smoker temp was back to 225F 6 minutes later, then Mav temp said 250F
> 
> Im currently watching the temps and I must say, it probably takes a good 1h for the temps to stabilize.  The MES cooks at WAAAAYYYY too high temps in the beginning of your smoke.  Preheating and babying the temps seems like a prerequisite before putting in your meat.
> 
> 1 hour later = Mav temp topping out at 253F and bottoming out at 212F with the smoker temp set to 225F.  Still cooking on the high side.
> 
> *Bear whats the best way to stop the MES from cooking your meat at too high temps for the first 1.5 hours?  Maybe set the smoker to 215F for the first hour?  Then bump it up to 225F? * The other day I set my smoker to 225F, put in my AMPS, turned it on, and went to the store.  I can only imagine my ribs cooking at 300F for first 30 minutes.....  What the heck!


I would do what I explained in my Post #1 of this thread.

And also---Always set your MES to whatever it takes to get your Maverick to read the temp you want to smoke at.

One question for you--------Why would you turn your MES off during a smoke??

Bear


----------



## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> Do you mean the heat probe that hangs on the left side of rack three? Or the button sensor that sits above rack four? I have always seen a huge difference between the display temperature and the meat probe temperature. Doesn't make sense. Next time I started I think I'll place the meat probe right next to that button sensor and see what the difference is.


The thing that looks like a toggle switch on the back wall is the MES smoker temp sensor.

I never use my built in MES meat probe as a smoker temp measuring device. It's always a lot different than any of my other probes, probably because it was designed to be inside a piece of meat.

However I don't use that one for anything, because it's kinda hard to do a boiling test with it. LOL---I don't want to carry my smoker to my kitchen, and I don't want to carry my kitchen stove to my front porch---Besides--The 220V line is too short.

The only thing I use the MES read-out is to set the temp. Then I adjust that until my Maverick reads what I want. I wouldn't trust any of the MES readings---Or any other Built in Smoker temp readings.

Bear


----------



## floridasteve

I am doing an experiment right now. I placed the meat probe, my Maverick meat probe and my Maverick cooker probe all as close to the MES cooker sensor as possible.












image.jpg



__ floridasteve
__ Jun 28, 2015






Then I turned the unit on set at 225.  I think I already see the problem, but will watch it through a couple more cycles, then report my findings.

This is fun,


----------



## mummel

FloridaSteve said:


> Do you mean the heat probe that hangs on the left side of rack three? Or the button sensor that sits above rack four? I have always seen a huge difference between the display temperature and the meat probe temperature. Doesn't make sense. Next time I started I think I'll place the meat probe right next to that button sensor and see what the difference is.


Im talking about the button sensor.  I put my Maverick right next to it.


----------



## mummel

Bearcarver said:


> I would do what I explained in my Post #1 of this thread.
> 
> And also---Always set your MES to whatever it takes to get your Maverick to read the temp you want to smoke at.
> 
> One question for you--------Why would you turn your MES off during a smoke??
> 
> Bear


I had to turn it off because my Maverick said 225F while my smoker said 195F.  If I had left the smoker run to 225F, it probably would have read 295F on my Maverick.  The bottom line is that the MES has some serious temp swing flaws for the first ~1 hour.  If you know this you can adjust, but just putting your meat in and starting it would be a really bad idea.  At 1.5 hours today my temps were fair (210F - 250F).  But Masterbuilt needs improve their temp technology IMHO.  This is a big thumbs down.


----------



## mummel

FloridaSteve said:


> I am doing an experiment right now. I placed the meat probe, my Maverick meat probe and my Maverick cooker probe all as close to the MES cooker sensor as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> __ floridasteve
> __ Jun 28, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I turned the unit on set at 225. I think I already see the problem, but will watch it through a couple more cycles, then report my findings.
> 
> This is fun,


It looks like your button sensor has creosote.  You may need to clean it.


----------



## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> I am doing an experiment right now. I placed the meat probe, my Maverick meat probe and my Maverick cooker probe all as close to the MES cooker sensor as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> __ floridasteve
> __ Jun 28, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I turned the unit on set at 225. I think I already see the problem, but will watch it through a couple more cycles, then report my findings.
> 
> This is fun,


That won't work too good----I believe that button in your picture is the safety heat sensor.

The one that looks like a toggle switch is the one that is used for the heat regulation.

Bear


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> I had to turn it off because my Maverick said 225F while my smoker said 195F.  If I had left the smoker run to 225F, it probably would have read 295F on my Maverick.  The bottom line is that the MES has some serious temp swing flaws for the first ~1 hour.  If you know this you can adjust, but just putting your meat in and starting it would be a really bad idea.  At 1.5 hours today my temps were fair (210F - 250F).  But Masterbuilt needs improve their temp technology IMHO.  This is a big thumbs down.


So why not turn it down??? I only ever turn mine off when I'm quitting.

Bear


----------



## mummel

Bearcarver said:


> So why not turn it down??? I only ever turn mine off when I'm quitting.
> 
> Bear


Lol same outcome, zero difference!


----------



## brickguy221




----------



## mummel

Temp control must be the #1 critical factor for a successful smoke.  It makes sense that Masterbuilt should perfect this.  Taking ~2 hours to reach stable temps seems ridiculous.  Still love my MES BT.  Just staying.......


----------



## floridasteve

mummel said:


> It looks like your button sensor has creosote.  You may need to clean it.



Yes, that is from one smoke.  I can never seem to find the fine to clean the smoker after a smoke, so. I do it the night before the next smoke after I've prepped the meat.



Bearcarver said:


> That won't work too good----I believe that button in your picture is the safety heat sensor.
> 
> The one that looks like a toggle switch is the one that is used for the heat regulation.
> 
> Bear


So where is this toggle switch sensor?  I don't see anything else in the smoker that could be a sensor.  I have the new gen 2.5 Bluetooth model from Sam's.


----------



## floridasteve

So. Here are the results of my testing.  Of course this could all moot of Bear is right and I'm testing the wrong sensor, but I don't think I am.

If you look closely at this picture...












image.jpg



__ floridasteve
__ Jun 28, 2015





You will see the 2 meat probes dangling in front of the button sensor, about a half inch in front of it.  But since I couldn't find the clippy things that holds the Maveric's smoker sensor in place, I had to wedge it between the grill and the back wall of the sensor.  This turned out to be a good thing.

When I started the unit and set the temp at 225, the two meat probes rose very quickly, compared to the MES and Maveric smoker temp displays.  In fact, the two meat probes reached 300 degrees before the heater shut off when the MES  display reached 225. The two meat probes read very close to each other as did the two smoker temp readings.

I was only able to watch this through a couple of cycles, but the differences between the two smoker temp read outs and the two food temp read outs started at about 80 degrees and settled at about 60 degrees by 1 hour.

I then opened the door and removed all there probes from the bottom grill.  I bound them together and set them on the center of the second rack.  By the time I got this done, the smoker had cooled off considerably, according to the 3probes, but not so much according to the MES sensor.  Once I closed the door, it recovered quickly.  I was impressed that the three probes all read within three degrees of each other.  I was also impressed that the temp swings were all about the same and from about 215-230.  This would be after about 1.5 hours of operation.

So here is my theory....    If you look back at the picture, you will see that the sensor button is attacked to the back wall, which acts like a heat sink.  By wedging the Maveric smoker probe between the grill and back wall, that also acted as a heat sink, hence those two reading similarly.  With the water pan in place the heat from the element is diverted to the four sides of the box as it rises up where it hits the top them curls down the center.  That upward draft on the back edge is why the meat prob temps read so high.  It also explains why if you leave the MES meat probe in its holder why it reads so high.

My next step will be to place the three probes on the center of the three top racks and replete the test.


----------



## whistech

Bearcarver, I want to thank you for taking so much time to explain the temperature swings and how to help control them.      I have a 40 inch stainless steel Masterbuilt that I bought from Sams club probably 6 years ago.     Just yesterday, I took it out of the box and followed the seasoning procedure in the instructions.   I also ran the anmps smoker while seasoning and it worked great.     I used the Mavrick ready Check temp guage with two probes to watch the temperatures during seasoning.     The Mavrick probes showed about a 15 degree higher temperature than the readout on the smoker.     I wasn't concerned about this.  This morning, I put a 9 pound pork butt on the Masterbuilt about 9 am and have observed the temperature swings you detailed.    I set the temperature at 240 degrees and started smoking.  The pork butt was on sale for 99 cents a pound so I thought it would make a good first attempt on the smoker.     One thing I have always heard about was the stall, since I this is the first time I have used a temperature prove, I really didn't know what to expect.     Well, the pork put steadily, but slowely climbed in temperature until it hit 163 degrees and then it dropped to 161 degrees and stayed there for about 2.5 hours.    It finally started slowly climbing again and finally the pork butt is at 203 degrees.     I am going to take it out and wrap it in foil and go to bed.    This has been a long day.

Thanks Again Sir for you expertise!


----------



## mummel

Wow great price on that butt!  Where did you get it??


----------



## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> Yes, that is from one smoke. I can never seem to find the fine to clean the smoker after a smoke, so. I do it the night before the next smoke after I've prepped the meat.
> So where is this toggle switch sensor? I don't see anything else in the smoker that could be a sensor. I have the new gen 2.5 Bluetooth model from Sam's.


I clean the glass in mine before each smoke too, instead of after.

The thing you're putting your probe next to is the heat safety sensor in mine, and it looks just like yours (behind the left hanging probe).

The toggle switch looking sensor that measures the heat for the controls on mine is in the clean spot just below the probe on the right in this picture.

http://s836.photobucket.com/user/Bearcarver_2009/media/DSCN1562.jpg.html


----------



## gary s

mummel said:


> Temp control must be the #1 critical factor for a successful smoke.  It makes sense that Masterbuilt should perfect this.  Taking ~2 hours to reach stable temps seems ridiculous.  Still love my MES BT.  Just staying.......


I'm not a watt burner, so I don't have any experience with MES,  But I think what Bear is trying to do is let people know who have these units is how they can maintain their temp and get that perfect smoke. Seems pretty self explanatory.

You should start your own thread and contact Masterbuilt and explain to them on how to improve their product., Never  Know till you try.   ..............  Just Sayin !!!

Gary


----------



## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> So. Here are the results of my testing. Of course this could all moot of Bear is right and I'm testing the wrong sensor, but I don't think I am.
> 
> If you look closely at this picture...
> 
> You will see the 2 meat probes dangling in front of the button sensor, about a half inch in front of it. But since I couldn't find the clippy things that holds the Maveric's smoker sensor in place, I had to wedge it between the grill and the back wall of the sensor. This turned out to be a good thing.
> 
> When I started the unit and set the temp at 225, the two meat probes rose very quickly, compared to the MES and Maveric smoker temp displays. In fact, the two meat probes reached 300 degrees before the heater shut off when the MES display reached 225. The two meat probes read very close to each other as did the two smoker temp readings.
> 
> I was only able to watch this through a couple of cycles, but the differences between the two smoker temp read outs and the two food temp read outs started at about 80 degrees and settled at about 60 degrees by 1 hour.
> 
> I then opened the door and removed all there probes from the bottom grill. I bound them together and set them on the center of the second rack. By the time I got this done, the smoker had cooled off considerably, according to the 3probes, but not so much according to the MES sensor. Once I closed the door, it recovered quickly. I was impressed that the three probes all read within three degrees of each other. I was also impressed that the temp swings were all about the same and from about 215-230. This would be after about 1.5 hours of operation.
> 
> *So here is my theory.... If you look back at the picture, you will see that the sensor button is attacked to the back wall, which acts like a heat sink. By wedging the Maveric smoker probe between the grill and back wall, that also acted as a heat sink, hence those two reading similarly. With the water pan in place the heat from the element is diverted to the four sides of the box as it rises up where it hits the top them curls down the center. That upward draft on the back edge is why the meat prob temps read so high. It also explains why if you leave the MES meat probe in its holder why it reads so high.*
> 
> My next step will be to place the three probes on the center of the three top racks and replete the test.


Exactly. I thought that was a given, which is why we don't even consider what the meat probe says when it's in its holder, and why we never let any measuring part of a probe lay against any metal in our smokers, and expect any accuracy in measuring the air temp.

Some people support their probes with a potato, some use a block of wood to keep their probes away from metal, and I hang mine through a rack with electrical tape on the top to secure the probes from moving from where I put them.

You can see that in my picture above, where I have a probe on each side to balance out the heat from left to right with the use of my heat deflector below.

Bear


----------



## Bearcarver

whistech said:


> Bearcarver, I want to thank you for taking so much time to explain the temperature swings and how to help control them.      I have a 40 inch stainless steel Masterbuilt that I bought from Sams club probably 6 years ago.     Just yesterday, I took it out of the box and followed the seasoning procedure in the instructions.   I also ran the anmps smoker while seasoning and it worked great.     I used the Mavrick ready Check temp guage with two probes to watch the temperatures during seasoning.     The Mavrick probes showed about a 15 degree higher temperature than the readout on the smoker.     I wasn't concerned about this.  This morning, I put a 9 pound pork butt on the Masterbuilt about 9 am and have observed the temperature swings you detailed.    I set the temperature at 240 degrees and started smoking.  The pork butt was on sale for 99 cents a pound so I thought it would make a good first attempt on the smoker.     One thing I have always heard about was the stall, since I this is the first time I have used a temperature prove, I really didn't know what to expect.     Well, the pork put steadily, but slowely climbed in temperature until it hit 163 degrees and then it dropped to 161 degrees and stayed there for about 2.5 hours.    It finally started slowly climbing again and finally the pork butt is at 203 degrees.     I am going to take it out and wrap it in foil and go to bed.    This has been a long day.
> 
> Thanks Again Sir for you expertise!


I Thank You Sir !!

You did exactly the right thing!!

And 99 cents for Pork Butt----I haven't seen that around here in over 5 years!!

Thanks again for your comment.

Bear


----------



## floridasteve

Bearcarver said:


> I clean the glass in mine before each smoke too, instead of after.
> 
> The thing you're putting your probe next to is the heat safety sensor in mine, and it looks just like yours (behind the left hanging probe).
> The toggle switch looking sensor that measures the heat for the controls on mine is in the clean spot just below the probe on the right in this picture.



I only have the one sensor, the one on the right side where your toggle sensor is, only higher, just below grate 3.  There is nothing on the left side.  They must have combined them on gen 2.5???


----------



## floridasteve

Bearcarver said:


> Exactly. I thought that was a given, which is why we don't even consider what the meat probe says when it's in its holder, and why we never let any measuring part of a probe lay against any metal in our smokers, and expect any accuracy in measuring the air temp.



Sorry, I must have misunderstood mumel's earlier post.  I thought he was concerned about the differences in temp between the built on sensor and the Maveric probe placed right next to it.  But, I enjoyed doing my experiments and will certainly do more.


----------



## mummel

The bottom line is that after 1.5 hours, the Mav probe and the MES built in temp probe are very similar.  But in the first 30 minutes, the temps are WAY off, differing as much as 75F.  Thats why the MES continues to heat in the beginning even though the desired temp has been hit. 

Workarounds include baby'ing the temps in the beginning as per Bear's instructions, or preheating it for at least 45min.    For a 14 hour smoke, its not a big deal, but for shorter smokes like salmon, BCBs, chicken etc, this is a huge deal, and something Masterbuilt needs to fix with their next gen smoker.


----------



## mummel

Does anyone have an iGrill2?  I would be curios to see what the chart looks like if you turn your smoker on and set it to 225F, and how long it actually takes to reach that temp consistently.


----------



## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> I only have the one sensor, the one on the right side where your toggle sensor is, only higher, just below grate 3. There is nothing on the left side. They must have combined them on gen 2.5???


Hmmmm, That could be what they did---Funny you're the first to mention that----Good to know!!

I used to wonder why they weren't together before, so I figured that couldn't be done for some reason.

Thank You Very Much Steve!!

Bear


----------



## mummel

Here's a pic of my probe & sensor (the cleaned parts)













IMG_2148.jpg



__ mummel
__ Jun 12, 2015


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## jp61

Avoid temp swings in MES by purchasing a WSM...... problem solved with benefits!

It's been awhile since I've used my 40" MES to hot smoke. Almost every smoke was a little different do to the many variables both ambient and internal. From what I remember..... I use to preheat my MES to a higher temp than where I wanted to smoke at, mainly to give me enough time to load the meats without a huge temp drop before I closed the door. Then as things went along, I had to adjust temp set point up or down throughout the smoke. As the temp difference got tighter between chamber and meats the less adjustment was needed and it eventually got to a point where she was pretty steady the rest of the way. One has to learn his or her smoker and take variables into consideration, by no means is it "set it and forget it". At the time I had lots of fun learning how to smoke meats with my 40" MES.

Good luck and enjoy!


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## whistech

mummel said:


> Wow great price on that butt! Where did you get it??


My local Kroger had them on sale.     I think the sale was due to another Texas based grocer, HEB, opening a new store close to Kroger.      I am hoping there will be some good meat sales coming in this Wednesdays add for the 4th of July.


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## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> Here's a pic of my probe & sensor (the cleaned parts)


Looks like your Gen #2.5 still has the two sensors separate, like our older models, although in slightly different positions.

That's odd that Steve's has only the one sensor showing in his.

Bear


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## jp61

Not sure which sensors you guys are talking about but, if I remember correctly my gen1 40" MES has three temp sensors..... meat, chamber and (safety) high temp cut-off. They all should have at minimum those three sensors.


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## Bearcarver

JP61 said:


> Not sure which sensors you guys are talking about but, if I remember correctly my gen1 40" MES has three temp sensors..... meat, chamber and (safety) high temp cut-off. They all should have at minimum those three sensors.


Right---We're talking about the two other than the meat probe.

It seems one of the new MES only has one on the back wall, instead of two, like most of us have.

We're guessing the "Chamber Temp & the Safety cut-off" are rolled into one on that new one, but not on other new ones.

Bear


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## bigd3077

The last 2 smokes I did were all over. Due to wind, and my stack mostly. I am going to put sand in my drip tray next time, and follow your advice on pre heating Bear. The sand will never be 0* here in south florida, so if it takes an extra 15 minutes or so to heat, I'll take it.


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## jp61

Bearcarver said:


> Right---We're talking about the two other than the meat probe.
> 
> It seems one of the new MES only has one on the back wall, instead of two, like most of us have.
> 
> We're guessing the "Chamber Temp & the Safety cut-off" are rolled into one on that new one, but not on other new ones.
> 
> Bear


hmmm... OK.

I guess that's a possibility, I don't know..... haven't paid much attention to any MES smoker newer than mine. Probably the easiest way to find out is customer service, maybe wiring diagrams? Is it on the top section?


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## Bearcarver

bigd3077 said:


> The last 2 smokes I did were all over. Due to wind, and my stack mostly. I am going to put sand in my drip tray next time, and follow your advice on pre heating Bear. The sand will never be 0* here in south florida, so if it takes an extra 15 minutes or so to heat, I'll take it.


Yup---That should work a lot better down there.

Also--Note---The only time I have my Top Vent open at only 50% is when it is Windy.  Seems to help keep the heat from getting sucked out.

Bear


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## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> So. Here are the results of my testing. Of course this could all moot of Bear is right and I'm testing the wrong sensor, but I don't think I am.
> 
> If you look closely at this picture...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> __ floridasteve
> __ Jun 28, 2015


Hey Steve,

Now that I look closer at your picture (above), I believe I see the toggle switch looking sensor at about 11 O'Clock about an inch below the rack above.

That would be the Heat Sensor. The one you have your probe near is the Heat Safety Sensor.

Bear


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## Bearcarver




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## Bearcarver

JP61 said:


> hmmm... OK.
> 
> I guess that's a possibility, I don't know..... haven't paid much attention to any MES smoker newer than mine. Probably the easiest way to find out is customer service, maybe wiring diagrams? Is it on the top section?


False Alarm---See Post #106.

Bear


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## jp61

Bearcarver said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Now that I look closer at your picture (above), I believe I see the toggle switch looking sensor at about 11 O'Clock about an inch below the rack above.
> 
> That would be the Heat Sensor. The one you have your probe near is the Heat Safety Sensor.
> 
> Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Exactly. I thought that was a given, which is why we don't even consider what the meat probe says when it's in its holder, and why we never let any measuring part of a probe lay against any metal in our smokers, and expect any accuracy in measuring the air temp.
> 
> Some people support their probes with a potato, some use a block of wood to keep their probes away from metal, and I hang mine through a rack with electrical tape on the top to secure the probes from moving from where I put them.
> 
> You can see that in my picture above, where I have a probe on each side to balance out the heat from left to right with the use of my heat deflector below.
> 
> Bear


I never knew that the back wall acted as a heat sink. I keep the ET-733 BARBECUE probe near the rear of the rack and either more or less pointing to either the left or right side. I know there are different temps in different areas of my MES 30 Gen 1 but I decided just to keep the probe in the same spot with every smoke just to standardize the interior heat displayed on the ET-733 display screen, which I use to adjust the temp settings on the smoker. Do you suggest pointing the probe towards the left side or to the right?

Lastly, I just re-read a response from Darryl to a PM of mine about temp swings. I forgot that he had stated that during the initial warm up cycle the residual heat in the element will overshoot the target but after several cycles the temp will settle down close to the target, +/- 5-6 degrees during each cycle. This is exactly what I've been seeing and exactly how you, Jted, and I forget who else explained how the MES controller works.  So the guys who state they don't want to wait the 2-3 hours it might take for the temp to stabilize, well, sorry, but that's the design. From what I understand a PID controller fixes that. For me, it's a slight hassle to adjust the temp at different times during the smoke. My concern is that I don't want it too high or low but throughout all that, I'm watching the IT as displayed on the FOOD probe display screen as it rises toward and then reaches my finish IT.

Also, why do you suppose Masterbuilt reversed the placement of the high temp limit switch and the temp sensor in the 2.5 models?


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## jp61

Just
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





..... I'm not positive but I imagine the safety switch (sensor) is an auto-reset (not manual reset) type of device that's in a normally closed position. If someone ever has a big and/or long enough fire in their smoker or the controller does not shut off the heating element for whatever reason, the (safety) high limit switch should open and not allow the heating element to come back on until, (fire goes out) the safety switch cools off, resets and the controller is calling for heat again. If the controller or relay is ever "stuck" in the on position (always calling for heat) the smoker will cycle on/off of the safety switch at whatever temperature (guessing 375-400°F) it is set at from the factory. This switch should always be in a closed position (continuity) under normal operating conditions. Don't ask..... guess I was bored.


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## Bearcarver

JP61 said:


> Just
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..... I'm not positive but I imagine the safety switch (sensor) is an auto-reset (not manual reset) type of device that's in a normally closed position. If someone ever has a big and/or long enough fire in their smoker or the controller does not shut off the heating element for whatever reason, the (safety) high limit switch should open and not allow the heating element to come back on until, (fire goes out) the safety switch cools off, resets and the controller is calling for heat again. If the controller or relay is ever "stuck" in the on position (always calling for heat) the smoker will cycle on/off of the safety switch at whatever temperature (guessing 375-400°F) it is set at from the factory. This switch should always be in a closed position (continuity) under normal operating conditions. Don't ask..... guess I was bored.


Thanks---Interesting!!!

I remember a couple years ago there were a few guys who had to warm their MES smokers up with hat water or some kind of heat to get it to start in below Zero Winter Days.

If I remember correctly the problem was with that little safety switch.

Bear


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## mummel

Are there any mods or upgrades we can do to the MES 40 BT to get stable temps?  I dont mind spending a few extra $$$ to get it sorted out.


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> I never knew that the back wall acted as a heat sink. I keep the ET-733 BARBECUE probe near the rear of the rack and either more or less pointing to either the left or right side. I know there are different temps in different areas of my MES 30 Gen 1 but I decided just to keep the probe in the same spot with every smoke just to standardize the interior heat displayed on the ET-733 display screen, which I use to adjust the temp settings on the smoker. Do you suggest pointing the probe towards the left side or to the right?
> 
> Lastly, I just re-read a response from Darryl to a PM of mine about temp swings. I forgot that he had stated that during the initial warm up cycle the residual heat in the element will overshoot the target but after several cycles the temp will settle down close to the target, +/- 5-6 degrees during each cycle. This is exactly what I've been seeing and exactly how you, Jted, and I forget who else explained how the MES controller works.  So the guys who state they don't want to wait the 2-3 hours it might take for the temp to stabilize, well, sorry, but that's the design. From what I understand a PID controller fixes that. For me, it's a slight hassle to adjust the temp at different times during the smoke. My concern is that I don't want it too high or low but throughout all that, I'm watching the IT as displayed on the FOOD probe display screen as it rises toward and then reaches my finish IT.
> 
> *Also, why do you suppose Masterbuilt reversed the placement of the high temp limit switch and the temp sensor in the 2.5 models?*


The first one I've seen was Mummels (Yesterday) and it looks to me like it's now Dead Center instead of a few inches to the right. That seems to be a step in the right direction.

Picture in Post # 97 of this Thread.

Bear


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## daricksta

JP61 said:


> Not sure which sensors you guys are talking about but, if I remember correctly my gen1 40" MES has three temp sensors..... meat, chamber and (safety) high temp cut-off. They all should have at minimum those three sensors.


Not all the MES smokers have the meat probe. My MES 30 Gen 1 only has two: the chamber and hi temp limit switch. I use my Maverick ET-733 for both the meat and for an accurate chamber temp reading.


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> Not all the MES smokers have the meat probe. My MES 30 Gen 1 only has two: the chamber and hi temp limit switch. I use my Maverick ET-733 for both the meat and for an accurate chamber temp reading.


You aren't missing anything. I've said many times I wouldn't trust it anyway, if not for any other reason than I wouldn't know how to boil test it.

Bear


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## daricksta

JP61 said:


> Just
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..... I'm not positive but I imagine the safety switch (sensor) is an auto-reset (not manual reset) type of device that's in a normally closed position. If someone ever has a big and/or long enough fire in their smoker or the controller does not shut off the heating element for whatever reason, the (safety) high limit switch should open and not allow the heating element to come back on until, (fire goes out) the safety switch cools off, resets and the controller is calling for heat again. If the controller or relay is ever "stuck" in the on position (always calling for heat) the smoker will cycle on/off of the safety switch at whatever temperature (guessing 375-400°F) it is set at from the factory. This switch should always be in a closed position (continuity) under normal operating conditions. Don't ask..... guess I was bored.


The hi limit cutoff switch is designed to shut down the heating element if the smoker gets up to between 325-350°. I've never had it kick in so personally I don't know if it opens up after the temp goes lower than 325° or if you have to manually push the On button again and reset your set point and smoking time. The highest temp my smoker has reached is 302°.


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> You aren't missing anything. I've said many times I wouldn't trust it anyway, if not for any other reason than I wouldn't know how to boil test it.
> 
> Bear


Excellent point.


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> The first one I've seen was Mummels (Yesterday) and it looks to me like it's now Dead Center instead of a few inches to the right. That seems to be a step in the right direction.
> 
> Picture in Post # 97 of this Thread.
> 
> Bear


From your experience, what would be the best spots for placing the temp sensor and the hi temp limit switch?


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## jp61

daRicksta said:


> Not all the MES smokers have the meat probe. My MES 30 Gen 1 only has two: the chamber and hi temp limit switch. I use my Maverick ET-733 for both the meat and for an accurate chamber temp reading.


OK.... didn't know that, assumed both size smokers had a meat probe. I guess one has to spend the big $$$ to get an extra bell/whistle. You should consider yourself fortunate they gave you a chip-loader with your 30".


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> From your experience, what would be the best spots for placing the temp sensor and the hi temp limit switch?


LOL---I'd put the temp sensor where they have it now on the Gen #2.5, and I'd put the Hi Temp Safety Sensor right next to it, because if you have the Hi Temp Safety Sensor up higher, like in my Gen #1, if you did a dumb move & blocked the rack above the Temp Sensor, but below the Hi Temp Safety Sensor, you could have a problem. If the Temp sensor went wacky, the heat wouldn't get to the Safety sensor to shut it off.

However No matter where you put it, if you block the air flow below the Temp Sensor, the Temp Sensor will cause the controls to keep calling for heat, and the heat would never shut off.

Soooooo---The Moral of the Story is------Never block air flow anywhere in your MES----Ever!!!

Bear


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## jp61

daRicksta said:


> The hi limit cutoff switch is designed to shut down the heating element if the smoker gets up to between 325-350°. I've never had it kick in so personally I don't know if it opens up after the temp goes lower than 325° or if you have to manually push the On button again and reset your set point and smoking time. The highest temp my smoker has reached is 302°.


No, there is no manual reset on the safety switch at least not on mine. I just didn't want to sound overconfident 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  Again, I'm not positive but temperature rise should be opening a normally closed switch in case of abnormal operating conditions and after cooling off-time and below non-adjustable set point temperature it will close again allowing current flow to the heating element if the controller is calling for heat. I think... lol.


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## jp61

Bearcarver said:


> Thanks---Interesting!!!
> 
> I remember a couple years ago there were a few guys who had to warm their MES smokers up with hat water or some kind of heat to get it to start in below Zero Winter Days.
> 
> If I remember correctly the problem was with that little safety switch.
> 
> Bear


I too remember those issues with some smokers. I never ran into that problem with mine. I'm sure there are many different designs, manufacturers and quality of bimetal limit switches with some made as cheap as possible. Who knows, a cheap version if that is what's being used, in too cold of a temperature could somehow contract the bimetal to a point where it'll open in reverse direction also, which should not happen on a high limit switch. A little heat from wet rag, lighter, etc. and in no time it's back in its normal closed position and the smoker works. Just a wild guess, I don't know what that was all about.


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## jp61

Here's one example of a bimetalic limit switch in operation.

Wired in series with heating element....... in its normal position the switch is closed (ON= continuity), temperature rise opens it and temperature fall will closes it.

Edit: switch is in its normal position when the video starts..


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## daricksta

JP61 said:


> OK.... didn't know that, assumed both size smokers had a meat probe. I guess one has to spend the big $$$ to get an extra bell/whistle. You should consider yourself fortunate they gave you a chip-loader with your 30".


Hey--I consider myself fortunate I've never had any major problems with it. The chip loader came standard with what I call my "basic black" model. No window, remote, meat probe, just the basics for smoking food. It was just what I wanted.

You didn't get a chip loader with yours or were you making a joke? And hey again--some guys get 6 racks but I only got 4. Only thing is I do have to strike to flint rocks together to get a spark to ignite the heating element...


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## jp61

daRicksta said:


> Hey--I consider myself fortunate I've never had any major problems with it. The chip loader came standard with what I call my "basic black" model. No window, remote, meat probe, just the basics for smoking food. It was just what I wanted.
> 
> You didn't get a chip loader with yours or were you making a joke? And hey again--some guys get 6 racks but I only got 4. Only thing is I do have to strike to flint rocks together to get a spark to ignite the heating element...


lol.... yes, I was joking... sorry.

I'm gonna shut-up now because I kind of hijacked Bear's thread.


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## floridasteve

I am so embarrassed!  I took all the racks out of my smoker this evening to clean it for my next smoke.  As I took rack #3 out --- there is was.  The toggle shaped sensor that Bear told me was there.  If only I'd had moved that grate even an inch, I'd have seen it. My apologies to Bear and the rest of the readers.


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## jp61

Don't sweat it Steve!

It's no big deal, even I made a mistake once!


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---I'd put the temp sensor where they have it now on the Gen #2.5, and I'd put the Hi Temp Safety Sensor right next to it, because if you have the Hi Temp Safety Sensor up higher, like in my Gen #1, if you did a dumb move & blocked the rack above the Temp Sensor, but below the Hi Temp Safety Sensor, you could have a problem. If the Temp sensor went wacky, the heat wouldn't get to the Safety sensor to shut it off.
> 
> However No matter where you put it, if you block the air flow below the Temp Sensor, the Temp Sensor will cause the controls to keep calling for heat, and the heat would never shut off.
> 
> Soooooo---The Moral of the Story is------Never block air flow anywhere in your MES----Ever!!!
> 
> Bear


I've been told the hi temp limit switch is designed to shut down the heating element (or controller--one and the same?) when interior temp hits between 325-350°. So even if the blocked temp sensor kept calling for heat the limit switch would shut it all down--theoretically.

I can't visualize, though, how the rack above the temp sensor but below the hi temp switch could be blocked. Without seeing the inside of my MES I can't picture where the sensors are in relation to the racks. I will be able to see it tomorrow and perhaps get the idea.


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## daricksta

JP61 said:


> No, there is no manual reset on the safety switch at least not on mine. I just didn't want to sound overconfident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not positive but temperature rise should be opening a normally closed switch in case of abnormal operating conditions and after cooling off-time and below non-adjustable set point temperature it will close again allowing current flow to the heating element if the controller is calling for heat. I think... lol.


No manual reset with mine either. When my smoker gets up into the 290s to 300s I open the door to let all the heat out. It's happened twice in 3 years. Tomorrow I find out if it happens again. If it does, I'll have to figure out what needs to be replaced and order it from MB. I've got the smoking stuff down but not the electrical part.


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## daricksta

JP61 said:


> lol.... yes, I was joking... sorry.
> 
> I'm gonna shut-up now because I kind of hijacked Bear's thread.


Thought so. I shoulda added a smiley face after my comment. Besides, I'm all for hijacking Bear's thread. I always wanted to visit Cuba in the summertime...


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## daricksta

FloridaSteve said:


> I am so embarrassed! I took all the racks out of my smoker this evening to clean it for my next smoke. As I took rack #3 out --- there is was. The toggle shaped sensor that Bear told me was there. If only I'd had moved that grate even an inch, I'd have seen it. My apologies to Bear and the rest of the readers.


The shame, the shame...


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## Bearcarver

FloridaSteve said:


> I am so embarrassed! I took all the racks out of my smoker this evening to clean it for my next smoke. As I took rack #3 out --- there is was. The toggle shaped sensor that Bear told me was there. If only I'd had moved that grate even an inch, I'd have seen it. My apologies to Bear and the rest of the readers.


No problem Steve!!

You just had me going until Mummel posted the inside of his Gen #2.5. Then I saw how they changed position of the sensors, and I knew where to look closer at yours & I saw where your little Toggle looking sensor was. No Biggy.

Bear


daRicksta said:


> I've been told the hi temp limit switch is designed to shut down the heating element (or controller--one and the same?) when interior temp hits between 325-350°. So even if the blocked temp sensor kept calling for heat the limit switch would shut it all down--theoretically.
> 
> I can't visualize, though, how the rack above the temp sensor but below the hi temp switch could be blocked. Without seeing the inside of my MES I can't picture where the sensors are in relation to the racks. I will be able to see it tomorrow and perhaps get the idea.


If the sensors were in the wrong position, this could happen. Below is a notation I made on my Chicken Thighs Step by Step that shows how the heat can be blocked from getting to another part of the smoker. If this blockage would have been below the Temp Sensor, but above the Safety Sensor, it could have gotten hot enough to shut down, because the Temp Sensor would have kept calling for the heat that couldn't get above the blockage:

****  I noticed during the smoke, my Maverick above the Thighs (left side) was averaging 160* to 210*, and the Maverick below the Thighs (right side) averaged 240*, then 260*, and then 290*. At first I thought it was either the upper probe being close to the cold meat, or the 2 Foil Pans on one rack was trapping the heat below them. Once the thighs got hot, I realized it was definitely the Pans trapping the heat. They take up nearly the whole depth & width of the Smoker. Normally the thighs would have been done by 5 PM, but they were only at about 142* IT at that time. When I removed the Taters, I moved one of the Foil Pans to the top position. This changed both of the Mavericks to the 270* to 285* range. The Thighs were all between 165* and 172* at 5:50 PM, and I removed them. They were still Awesome!!!


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## mummel

These thighs were kick ass by the way.  My wife made them.


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> No problem Steve!!
> 
> You just had me going until Mummel posted the inside of his Gen #2.5. Then I saw how they changed position of the sensors, and I knew where to look closer at yours & I saw where your little Toggle looking sensor was. No Biggy.
> 
> Bear
> 
> If the sensors were in the wrong position, this could happen. Below is a notation I made on my Chicken Thighs Step by Step that shows how the heat can be blocked from getting to another part of the smoker. If this blockage would have been below the Temp Sensor, but above the Safety Sensor, it could have gotten hot enough to shut down, because the Temp Sensor would have kept calling for the heat that couldn't get above the blockage:
> 
> ****  I noticed during the smoke, my Maverick above the Thighs (left side) was averaging 160* to 210*, and the Maverick below the Thighs (right side) averaged 240*, then 260*, and then 290*. At first I thought it was either the upper probe being close to the cold meat, or the 2 Foil Pans on one rack was trapping the heat below them. Once the thighs got hot, I realized it was definitely the Pans trapping the heat. They take up nearly the whole depth & width of the Smoker. Normally the thighs would have been done by 5 PM, but they were only at about 142* IT at that time. When I removed the Taters, I moved one of the Foil Pans to the top position. This changed both of the Mavericks to the 270* to 285* range. The Thighs were all between 165* and 172* at 5:50 PM, and I removed them. They were still Awesome!!!


Thanks, Bear. I can visualize it now. I'll be closely monitoring the heat inside my smoker today. That's the great thing about having the ET-733. Since I'll be smoking ribs, I've have the two probe on separate racks and on different sides of the smoker.


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## mummel

Are there any mods or upgrades we can make the new MES 40 BT to get better temp control in the first 1.5 hours?


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## brickguy221

mummel said:


> Are there any mods or upgrades we can make the new MES 40 BT to get better temp control in the first 1.5 hours?


I better "knock on wood" when I say this, but I have only used my  new BT 3 times so far, yet I have had no problem controlling the temp the first 1.5 hrs. Once mine reaches the set temp, it cycles as well as a person could ever ask for never varying more than 3-4 degrees over and under the set point. Maybe that will change with use, but is the case so far.


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## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> These thighs were kick ass by the way.  My wife made them.


Thank You!!

Bear


mummel said:


> Are there any mods or upgrades we can make the new MES 40 BT to get better temp control in the first 1.5 hours?


I would just use the method I explained in Post #1 of this Thread.

If your temp has been taking 1.5 hours to settle in, my method should cut that way down.

Once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature.

Bear


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## daricksta

Brickguy221 said:


> I better "knock on wood" when I say this, but I have only used my  new BT 3 times so far, yet I have had no problem controlling the temp the first 1.5 hrs. Once mine reaches the set temp, it cycles as well as a person could ever ask for never varying more than 3-4 degrees over and under the set point. Maybe that will change with use, but is the case so far.


I wonder if the new MES smokers have an improved controller? I sure would hope so. Hope yours continues to work problem free.


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## mummel

Brickguy221 said:


> I better "knock on wood" when I say this, but I have only used my  new BT 3 times so far, yet I have had no problem controlling the temp the first 1.5 hrs. Once mine reaches the set temp, it cycles as well as a person could ever ask for never varying more than 3-4 degrees over and under the set point. Maybe that will change with use, but is the case so far.


Are you going but the temps on your Maverick or the smoker itself.  The smoker temps are way off in the beginning.


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## brickguy221

mummel said:


> Are you going but the temps on your Maverick or the smoker itself.  The smoker temps are way off in the beginninIg.


I haven't used my new Maverick to check Smoker temps yet, but do put my accurate oven thermometer on a shelf and don't find the Smoker Temps way off at the beginning nor do I find it taking 1.5 hrs to settle down. My Smoker climbs steady to the set point and then cycles from that point on, at 3-4 degrees over and under the set point.


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## daricksta

Brickguy221 said:


> I haven't used my new Maverick to check Smoker temps yet, but do put my accurate oven thermometer on a shelf and don't find the Smoker Temps way off at the beginning nor do I find it taking 1.5 hrs to settle down. My Smoker climbs steady to the set point and then cycles from that point on, at 3-4 degrees over and under the set point.


I used my ET-733 yesterday. For the most part, the MES 30 controller displayed a temp about 20° lower than the ET-733. Since I was smoking ribs I used both probes to measure the interior smoker heat. During heating cycles there was about 10° difference between the two which settled down to about 2-3° difference. I had one probe clipped to the top rack facing towards the left side and the other probe was clipped to the 2nd rack and facing towards the right. My goal was to measure the heat variances in different areas of the smoker, a test I've conducted a few times before. It always starts off with one side and rack being much hotter than the other and then a few hours later settling down to just a slight difference. This has been consistent with the MES 30 Gen 1 and with the ET-733.

The proof of the heat temp being relatively the same from side to side and from rack to rack is that I smoked two racks of baby back ribs yesterday and they both turned out with identical doneness; both being extremely moist and tender.


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> *Avoid Temp Swings in MES*   (By Bear)
> 
> *How I avoid much of the annoying heat over-running (Temp Swings):*
> 
> A lot of MES owners complain about the wide cycling spreads they get for awhile at the beginning of a Smoke.
> 
> The following method I use should work with all MES units, and probably any other electric smoker without a PID set-up.
> 
> When you start an MES by preheating it to a set temp it will run all the way to that set temp before the heating element shuts off. This could take in the area of one half hour. Then the heat will continue to rise for a while. I call that “Coasting”. The longer the run either up or down, the farther it will Coast.
> 
> In other words, if you want your smoker to be at 230°, and you set it at 230°, it will shut off at 230°, but depending on things like Ambient Temp, Wind, etc, etc the heat in the smoker could Coast up to 240°, 250° or sometimes even more. Then once it stops Coasting, the temp will eventually begin to fall, and continue to fall until it hits one or two degrees below your temp setting, and then the element comes on. Then since it just had another relatively long run coming down from the over-run you just had above 230°, it will now continue to fall below the set point after the element comes on. It may fall down as low as 20° or more below your set point before the temp of the smoker begins to rise again.
> 
> This over-running can continue for a good number of heating & cooling cycles, before it settles down to only over-running a few degrees above and below your set point.
> 
> The best way I have found to avoid this annoying problem is as follows:
> 
> If you want your smoker to be 230° inside, set your control at 215°. Then let it run & shut off at 215°. Then watch how far it Coasts above 215° before it stops & begins to fall. If it runs to 230° or above, change your setting to 230°. Now that it won’t be dropping a long way before reaching the set point, it also won’t over-run much below the set point after the heating element comes on. Then since it won’t be making a long run to get back up to 230°, it won’t over-run much above that 230° shut-off point.
> 
> This will cut way down on the Over-running above & below your set point in a much shorter time than it would without playing this little game.
> 
> Also if on that first run up, it only Coasts to 225° instead of 230°, just slide your heat setting up to 223° or 224°, and catch it at 230° on the next cycle.
> 
> Once you do this for a few smokes you’ll be able to fine tune it. I have it more fine tuned than the above, but it would take too long to explain it in type.
> 
> Note: For those of us who live in the North, you will learn that the heating tends to over-run in the Upward direction more in the Summer than in the Winter, and it will Over-run more in the Downward direction in the Winter than in the Summer.
> 
> I hope this helps some of those who don’t like seeing the big Temp Swings in their Electric Smokers.
> 
> Bear


I've looked at this a few times without really reading it. Now that I've read it I'm copy/pasting the text to Word doc and you can bet I'll be referring to it. I observed on my own the past few smokes how the controller temp rises and falls and then settles down to where you want it but this makes sense of it all. Thanks for the tips. I think I've already been doing it on my own but now I know why.


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## bigd3077

I can't wait for tomorrow at 4am to test this method, lol.


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## Bearcarver

bigd3077 said:


> I can't wait for tomorrow at 4am to test this method, lol.


LOL----My MES works good at 4am, but the Bear doesn't work so good at 4am !!!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Bear


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## bigd3077

Bearcarver said:


> LOL----My MES works good at 4am, but the Bear doesn't work so good at 4am !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bear


This is the only part about smoking butts and shoulders I hate. Last 2 I did were not ready for dinner, so I'm getting up extra early, and using this pre heat method, as well as sand in my tray. I think this will prove to be the winning formula!


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## daricksta

bigd3077 said:


> This is the only part about smoking butts and shoulders I hate. Last 2 I did were not ready for dinner, so I'm getting up extra early, and using this pre heat method, as well as sand in my tray. I think this will prove to be the winning formula!


That's why I keep the size of pork shoulders, beef briskets and boneless chuck roasts down to less than 10 lbs. I've got a MES 30 Gen1 and I can smoke a shoulder or a brisket to 200° IT in about 11 hours. I'm trying my 2nd chuck roast next week and we'll see how that goes.


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## bigd3077

daRicksta said:


> That's why I keep the size of pork shoulders, beef briskets and boneless chuck roasts down to less than 10 lbs. I've got a MES 30 Gen1 and I can smoke a shoulder or a brisket to 200° IT in about 11 hours. I'm trying my 2nd chuck roast next week and we'll see how that goes.


The one for tomorrow was 9.33 lbs before I removed the skin. I think the sand is going to help.


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## daricksta

bigd3077 said:


> The one for tomorrow was 9.33 lbs before I removed the skin. I think the sand is going to help.


Where do you buy your pork shoulder/butts? Sounds like you go to a real butcher shop. I've never seen skin on pork products in standard supermarkets or at Costco.

I'm not sure if you said which MES model and generation you own. I just have the MES 30 Gen 1 and I tried filling the water pan with sand and it made no difference as far as temp stability. That's why I keep it empty and foiled over. Sand may work for you, however.


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## bigd3077

I got it from Penn Dutch. In general, the shoulders ot picnic have skin, and butts do not. I think mine is gen 2. Going to give the sand a shot. I'm running it now for a test run


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## daricksta

bigd3077 said:


> I got it from Penn Dutch. In general, the shoulders ot picnic have skin, and butts do not. I think mine is gen 2. Going to give the sand a shot. I'm running it now for a test run


Oh, you're in Florida. Just to make sure we're referring to the same cuts of pork meat, here on the West Coast pork butts are called pork shoulder which refers to the upper part of the shoulder. Bone-in pork shoulder is called blade pork shoulder. Boneless pork country ribs also comes from this section. Only about two supermarkets I know of call these cuts pork butt.

The lower shoulder down to the leg just above the front hock is called the shoulder picnic or picnic ham. But I think I just restated what you wrote. I guess out here we don't like to be reminded that our meat came from once-living animals.

If your vent is on the side, and if you controller is in front, you have a MES Gen 2.


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## brickguy221

In speaking of cuts of meat ..... My Son at Tracy, CA bought some Tri-Tip Roast yesterday for $3.98 per lb. Here in OkC, the price is in the area of $7.68 per lb. I wonder why so much cheaper in CA? I don't have any facts to base this on, but I would think that OK raises a lot more cattle than CA, but could be wrong here.


----------



## daricksta

I think tri tip roasts might be $3.99-4.99/lb with steaks being a dollar or more a pound higher here in WA state. I won't be food shopping till next week so I won't be able to check it then. No idea why it might be higher in CA unless Calif-grown beef is getting more expensive due to the drought. I would think you mid-west guys would have better meat prices. But then CA gasoline prices are higher than in OK--right?


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## bigd3077

daRicksta said:


> Oh, you're in Florida. Just to make sure we're referring to the same cuts of pork meat, here on the West Coast pork butts are called pork shoulder which refers to the upper part of the shoulder. Bone-in pork shoulder is called blade pork shoulder. Boneless pork country ribs also comes from this section. Only about two supermarkets I know of call these cuts pork butt.
> 
> The lower shoulder down to the leg just above the front hock is called the shoulder picnic or picnic ham. But I think I just restated what you wrote. I guess out here we don't like to be reminded that our meat came from once-living animals.
> 
> If your vent is on the side, and if you controller is in front, you have a MES Gen 2.






Yep, you got it. We are not so sensitive down here, we know we are eating animals, lol. It is indeed a MES 30 gen 2.


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## brickguy221

daRicksta said:


> No idea why it might be higher in CA unless Calif-grown beef is getting more expensive due to the drought.


Rick the Tri-Tips are cheaper in CA. @ $3.98 per lb there and $7.68 in OK.


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## chef jimmyj

I have been following this thread with interest. I thought about it some more and realized while I did see some swing on my first MES 40, I never checked the newer one, a Gen 1 all stainless as well. The outside temp was 90° with a very slight breeze. After sitting in direct sun the interior was 117°F. I placed the MAV BBQ probe left side of second shelf from the top, The Meat probe hanging between shelves 3 and 4 and set the empty MES at 275°F. The Chip Drawer was removed and the Loader out 4", Vent wide open. After 30 min of heating the MES remote hit 275 and the heating element turned off. The MAV BBQ probe read 275 and the Meat probe read 277. I watched for 20 minutes NO OVERSHOOT! I could not believe what I was seeing. At 40 minutes the MES remote read 273° as did both of the MAV probes. The heating element turned on all the probes and MES remote climbed to 275, heating coil went off, and again the temp never rose above 277 with the MAV BBQ pro reading 275. 

I must have gotten a unit where whomever set up the electronics was having a Great Day! This unit holds temp at Set Point with, depending on the probe, a 2 to 4 swing total. I could not be more thrilled and impressed with the operation!!!...JJ


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## Bearcarver

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I have been following this thread with interest. I thought about it some more and realized while I did see some swing on my first MES 40, I never checked the newer one, a Gen 1 all stainless as well. The outside temp was 90° with a very slight breeze. After sitting in direct sun the interior was 117°F. I placed the MAV BBQ probe left side of second shelf from the top, The Meat probe hanging between shelves 3 and 4 and set the empty MES at 275°F. The Chip Drawer was removed and the Loader out 4", Vent wide open. After 30 min of heating the MES remote hit 275 and the heating element turned off. The MAV BBQ probe read 275 and the Meat probe read 277. I watched for 20 minutes NO OVERSHOOT! I could not believe what I was seeing. At 40 minutes the MES remote read 273° as did both of the MAV probes. The heating element turned on all the probes and MES remote climbed to 275, heating coil went off, and again the temp never rose above 277 with the MAV BBQ pro reading 275.
> 
> I must have gotten a unit where whomever set up the electronics was having a Great Day! This unit holds temp at Set Point with, depending on the probe, a 2 to 4 swing total. I could not be more thrilled and impressed with the operation!!!...JJ


That's Freaking Amazing Jimmy!!!

How much you want for that one???

That's a Dream Smoker!!

If I set mine at 275°, and left it go on it's own, it would easily clear 300°, after the element shuts off at 275°.

Bear


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## dr k

daRicksta said:


> That's why I keep the size of pork shoulders, beef briskets and boneless chuck roasts down to less than 10 lbs. I've got a MES 30 Gen1 and I can smoke a shoulder or a brisket to 200° IT in about 11 hours. I'm trying my 2nd chuck roast next week and we'll see how that goes.


I do the Butt the day before and smoke ABT's, Armadillo eggs or other appetizers that day, if I have the time the day before.  Then you can throw the pan of PP in the MES with apps to heat up.  The finishing juice/sauce in the PP is better the next day, kinda like chili. 

-Kurt


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## bigd3077

So I think this thread really helped me Bear. I started it up set at 230. She hit that, coasted to 242 on my 733. At that time, I put it at 250 and put the meat in. Dropped some as expected,  but settled in nice at 255 and held. Currently sitting at my goal, 250 and holding. Thanks Bear!


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## brickguy221

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I have been following this thread with interest. I thought about it some more and realized while I did see some swing on my first MES 40, I never checked the newer one, a Gen 1 all stainless as well. The outside temp was 90° with a very slight breeze. After sitting in direct sun the interior was 117°F. I placed the MAV BBQ probe left side of second shelf from the top, The Meat probe hanging between shelves 3 and 4 and set the empty MES at 275°F. The Chip Drawer was removed and the Loader out 4", Vent wide open. After 30 min of heating the MES remote hit 275 and the heating element turned off. The MAV BBQ probe read 275 and the Meat probe read 277. I watched for 20 minutes NO OVERSHOOT! I could not believe what I was seeing. At 40 minutes the MES remote read 273° as did both of the MAV probes. The heating element turned on all the probes and MES remote climbed to 275, heating coil went off, and again the temp never rose above 277 with the MAV BBQ pro reading 275.
> 
> I must have gotten a unit where whomever set up the electronics was having a Great Day! This unit holds temp at Set Point with, depending on the probe, a 2 to 4 swing total. I could not be more thrilled and impressed with the operation!!!...JJ


In case anyone missed 2 or so of my recent posts, I too reported that .... "so far" .... the temp on my new 40" MES Bluetooth cycles at 3-4 degrees max over and 3-4 degrees max under the set point, (most of the time 3* max but ocassionally 4* max) just like a car on cruise control traveling down the Interstate Highway. However, I don't remove my chip drawer and it cycles this well regardless of what position the chip loader is in.


----------



## mummel

Happy 4th Bear!  So some quick data Re: our previous discussion.

Set smoker to 225F and started it up
Goal was to get stable temps +-15F from 225F so 210 to 240F
Smoker was at 175F when my Mav hit 225F
So I quickly set smoker temp to 175F
Smoker temp then coasted and topped out at 215F with my Mav at 248F
I then set my smoker temp to 215F
Smoker temp dropped down to 213F and then the element kicked on, my Max said 221F
Smoker temp coasted up to 225F with my Mav at 243F
I changed my smoker temp to 210F
Smoker temp dropped to 209F and started heating, Mav temp said 212F
Smoker temp bottom at 207F and Mav said 210F
Process took about 1.5 hours

After about 2 hours I had stable temps of 210F-240F

Am I doing things correctly?


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> Happy 4th Bear!  So some quick data Re: our previous discussion.
> 
> Set smoker to 225F and started it up
> Goal was to get stable temps +-15F from 225F so 210 to 240F
> Smoker was at 175F when my Mav hit 225F
> So I quickly set smoker temp to 175F* You said it was already set at 175° in #3.*
> Smoker temp then coasted and topped out at 215F with my Mav at 248F
> I then set my smoker temp to 215F
> Smoker temp dropped down to 213F and then the element kicked on, my Max said 221F
> Smoker temp coasted up to 225F with my Mav at 243F
> I changed my smoker temp to 210F
> Smoker temp dropped to 209F and started heating, Mav temp said 212F
> Smoker temp bottom at 207F and Mav said 210F
> Process took about 1.5 hours
> 
> After about 2 hours I had stable temps of 210F-240F
> 
> Am I doing things correctly?


Are you saying that once it stabilizes. your Maverick swing is from 210° to 240° (averaging 225°)??

That's a pretty big swing for once it "Stabilized", but the important thing is your average can be maintained where you want it that way.

If that's true, your stabilized swing isn't much better than your start-up swing-----The highest the Mav went at start-up was 248°, and the lowest was 210°.

It would have been a whole lot worse without making those changes.

Bear


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## mummel

What should the stabalized temp diffs be?  Could it be my controller isnt working properly?


----------



## mummel

And Re: #4 in my list, yes I set it to 175F so the smoker would stop heating.  Same discussion we had the other day.  Alternative was to turn it off.


----------



## bigd3077

When mine hit 250, it was cycling perfect. Only + or - 4*


----------



## mummel

Do you have the new MES 40 BT?


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> And Re: #4 in my list, yes I set it to 175F so the smoker would stop heating.  Same discussion we had the other day.  Alternative was to turn it off.


You did good resetting it at 175° at that point to get it to stop going up.

Turning it off makes no sense at any time, unless you're either done, or it's on fire.

Bear


mummel said:


> What should the stabalized temp diffs be?  Could it be my controller isnt working properly?


They're all different:

Some guys with the new model are reporting 2° to 4° swings. Once stabilized, mine is usually about 15° total. 

Yours is about 30° total which seems to be higher than most, but your average can be managed where you want it.

Maybe try closing your top Vent about 50%.

I do that when it's windy. Maybe yours needs it more than mine?

Also are you pulling your chip dumper out to keep your AMNPS smoking???  That could affect your swing too.

So many variables. The big thing is you're able to get your average where you want it.

Bear


----------



## mummel

I will try close the vent 50% on my next smoke.  The chip loaded is in, dump position, pulled out to the middle point. 

Those guys reporting the swings.  They looking at their Mavs or the digital panel, because the panel reports +-5-10F swings, but they are larger on the Mav.


----------



## Bearcarver

mummel said:


> I will try close the vent 50% on my next smoke.  The chip loaded is in, dump position, pulled out to the middle point.
> 
> Those guys reporting the swings.  They looking at their Mavs or the digital panel, because the panel reports +-5-10F swings, but they are larger on the Mav.


The Maverick is more accurate, because it's more sensitive & reads the absolute peaks, so it reports bigger swings, but it really doesn't matter, because it's the average between the High & the low that you want it to be.

In other words if you want 230° & the Maverick swings from 220° to 240° your good to go, or from 225° to 235°---Perfect!! Or even 215° to 245°---Average is still 230°.

My kitchen oven does the same thing, except it takes about 8 minutes to fall from 240° to 210°, but only 2 minutes to rise from 210° to 240°. Average is 225°.

Bear


----------



## mummel

Kind of a bummer that I have 30F variance when some guys are getting 2F!  Im smoking again tomorrow.  Will check it out.


----------



## daricksta

bigd3077 said:


> Yep, you got it. We are not so sensitive down here, we know we are eating animals, lol. It is indeed a MES 30 gen 2.


Looks like you've got a good smoker. As for eating animals, today I bought some meat that was on sale. I didn't see cows and pigs. All I saw were great looking bone-in ribeye steaks and baby back ribs.


----------



## daricksta

Brickguy221 said:


> Rick the Tri-Tips are cheaper in CA. @ $3.98 per lb there and $7.68 in OK.





Brickguy221 said:


> Rick the Tri-Tips are cheaper in CA. @ $3.98 per lb there and $7.68 in OK.


How meat's priced is beyond me. I'm only concerned with WA state meat prices anyway since that is the state in which I live. Well, it's the first state. The other one is married bliss...


----------



## daricksta

Dr K said:


> I do the Butt the day before and smoke ABT's, Armadillo eggs or other appetizers that day, if I have the time the day before.  Then you can throw the pan of PP in the MES with apps to heat up.  The finishing juice/sauce in the PP is better the next day, kinda like chili.
> 
> -Kurt


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Kurt, I just got introduced to ABTs and now you're throwing Armadillo eggs at me. ¿Qué son?

So, you re-smoke the PP with the sauce/juice? That sounds interesting but I only wheel out the smoker once in the week I use it. I've noticed that everything I smoke tastes smokier the next day and afterwards until they're all yummily gone.


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## bigd3077

daRicksta said:


> Looks like you've got a good smoker. As for eating animals, today I bought some meat that was on sale. I didn't see cows and pigs. All I saw were great looking bone-in ribeye steaks and baby back ribs.





Mmmmmm. Non nom


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## dr k

daRicksta said:


> Kurt, I just got introduced to ABTs and now you're throwing Armadillo eggs at me. ¿Qué son?
> 
> So, you re-smoke the PP with the sauce/juice? That sounds interesting but I only wheel out the smoker once in the week I use it. I've noticed that everything I smoke tastes smokier the next day and afterwards until they're all yummily gone.


It's a simplified Scotch egg. A hard boiled egg with a little blanket of rolled out sausage around out. I don't resmoke the pp the next day. I just have it covered in an aluminum pan on with other smoking things if i smoke the next day. If not smoking the next day then a crock pot.  I'm doing a 7lb.  shoulder  for pp with Chef JJ foiling juice tomorrow. I don't put juice in with the foil when it hits the stall around 160*F. I use the smoked juices from the pork to make the finishing juice to go over the pp. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta

Dr K said:


> It's a simplified Scotch egg. A hard boiled egg with a little blanket of rolled out sausage around out. I don't resmoke the pp the next day. I just have it covered in an aluminum pan on with other smoking things if i smoke the next day. If not smoking the next day then a crock pot. I'm doing a 7lb. shoulder for pp with Chef JJ foiling juice tomorrow. I don't put juice in with the foil when it hits the stall around 160*F. I use the smoked juices from the pork to make the finishing juice to go over the pp.
> -Kurt


"I don't put juice in with the foil when it hits the stall around 160*F. I discovered this very thing when I smoked a pork shoulder and baby back ribs. They exude more than enough juice inside the foil to keep them moist. Since they're already covered with a dry rub (the way I do it) no need to add anything additional. Guys will add apple juice to the foil but I wonder how much extra flavor it actually imparts. Seems like the juice would be diluted by the rendered pork fat inside the foil. That's what I found when I tried it with the last racks of baby backs I smoked.

A smoked Scotch egg--even a simplified one--is getting into pretty rarified air 'round these parts filled with ribs and pork butts and chuckies and sausages. I think it's cool if you can pull it off. I've never made or eaten one but I'm open to both experiences. When I make pulled pork I either heat up some leftovers in a small saucepan or I nuke it at a low power for a full minutes. Either way the smoky smell and flavor come through.


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## mummel

Interesting point about the juice.  Doesnt it also soften the bark and wash off some of the spices?


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> "I don't put juice in with the foil when it hits the stall around 160*F. I discovered this very thing when I smoked a pork shoulder and baby back ribs. They exude more than enough juice inside the foil to keep them moist. Since they're already covered with a dry rub (the way I do it) no need to add anything additional. Guys will add apple juice to the foil but I wonder how much extra flavor it actually imparts. Seems like the juice would be diluted by the rendered pork fat inside the foil. That's what I found when I tried it with the last racks of baby backs I smoked.
> 
> A smoked Scotch egg--even a simplified one--is getting into pretty rarified air 'round these parts filled with ribs and pork butts and chuckies and sausages. I think it's cool if you can pull it off. I've never made or eaten one but I'm open to both experiences. When I make pulled pork I either heat up some leftovers in a small saucepan or I nuke it at a low power for a full minutes. Either way the smoky smell and flavor come through.


I don't know about others, but I don't put the juice in to add moisture to the roast.

My mixture is designed to add to the meat juices for a final Au Jus. I don't add anything later, like some do. All I do is remove the fat, and it's already an Au Jus mixture.

I also put the roast on a cooling rack so it doesn't sit in the juice, just like it would be if it was on a rack below.

Hope that helps.

Bear


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## dr k

mummel said:


> Interesting point about the juice.  Doesnt it also soften the bark and wash off some of the spices?


With our without added juices, anything in foil/oven bag will steam the meat, softening the bark. I'll try butcher's paper instead of foiling to keep the bark crisper but help power through a stall to see how that method works sometime.  This time I need foil to get juices for the finishing juice. The one's in the 3-2-1 or 2-2-1 rib methods dry the bark back to pre foil texture. I always thought foiled meat with added juice would wash off rub on the bottom of the meat. I guess if the foiled juice with added liquids is used to make a sauce or finishing juice the added juice to foil makes sense but I just don't bother adding extra juice to the foiled meat. 
-Kurt


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## mummel

So foiling = softer, juicer meat but less bark?  Man who doesnt like both?


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## dr k

Bearcarver said:


> I don't know about others, but I don't put the juice in to add moisture to the roast.
> My mixture is designed to add to the meat juices for a final Au Jus. I don't add anything later, like some do. All I do is remove the fat, and it's already an Au Jus mixture.
> 
> I also put the roast on a cooling rack so it doesn't sit in the juice, just like it would be if it was on a rack below.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Bear


I like the fat separating measuring cups that pour from the bottom of the cup to get the Au Jus and keep the fat on top. 
-Kurt


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## Bearcarver

Dr K said:


> I always thought foiled meat with added juice would wash off rub on the bottom of the meat.
> -Kurt


If you put a cooling rack in the pan, under the meat, it won't be sitting in the juice, and won't wash anything off.

Bear


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## dr k

mummel said:


> So foiling = softer, juicer meat but less bark?  Man who doesnt like both?


Foiling=powering through a stall and a lot of people are done smoking their meat and building bark at 160*F or so. 
-Kurt


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## Bearcarver

Dr K said:


> I like the fat separating measuring cups that pour from the bottom of the cup to get the Au Jus and keep the fat on top.
> -Kurt


I bought a small one, and it didn't work, so I bought a bigger one, and it still didn't work as good as when I put it in a round sided container.

Then into the fridge until the next day. Then the fat hardens & comes off real easy, sometimes in one piece, leaving nothing but an Awesome Au Jus.

I never need it until the next day anyway, to add when I reheat leftovers.

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> I don't know about others, but I don't put the juice in to add moisture to the roast.
> 
> My mixture is designed to add to the meat juices for a final Au Jus. I don't add anything later, like some do. All I do is remove the fat, and it's already an Au Jus mixture.
> 
> I also put the roast on a cooling rack so it doesn't sit in the juice, just like it would be if it was on a rack below.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Bear


My mixture is designed to add to the meat juices for a final Au Jus. I don't add anything later, like some do. All I do is remove the fat, and it's already an Au Jus mixture. I think that's brilliant. I'm smoking two chuckies today and in about 20 minutes I'm going to foil them. I tried a wet rub on both, the first wet rub I've done. I think I'll just add some dry herbs or something to the foil and let the juices make the Au Jus for me.


----------



## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> My mixture is designed to add to the meat juices for a final Au Jus. I don't add anything later, like some do. All I do is remove the fat, and it's already an Au Jus mixture. I think that's brilliant. I'm smoking two chuckies today and in about 20 minutes I'm going to foil them. I tried a wet rub on both, the first wet rub I've done. I think I'll just add some dry herbs or something to the foil and let the juices make the Au Jus for me.


LOL---Thanks Rick!!

I wouldn't say Brilliant----I keep my mixture simple.

With a Butt, maybe 4 to 6 ounces of Apple Juice, and sometimes a couple ounces of BBQ sauce.

Then I stir & Nuke that mix just before I add it and Foil it. The Meat Juices do the rest.

Bear


----------



## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---Thanks Rick!!
> 
> I wouldn't say Brilliant----I keep my mixture simple.
> 
> With a Butt, maybe 4 to 6 ounces of Apple Juice, and sometimes a couple ounces of BBQ sauce.
> 
> Then I stir & Nuke that mix just before I add it and Foil it. The Meat Juices do the rest.
> 
> Bear


Darn it all. Looks like I gotta get off _my _butt if I want to make butt au jus like yours. My problem with smoking during the week is that I've got daycare chores to do, sometimes online classes to complete, and email and stuff to catch up on so I do the least amount of work I can get away with before I pull the meat. I've typically poured in about the same amount of apple juice you do and added a bit of the dry rub I applied to the meat.

Oh, to keep this on topic and keeping in mind I'm lazy, I didn't follow your avoid temp swings step by step but...while the controller overshot my set point it settled back down in about an hour to where I wanted it. I then decided I wanted a lower one and the controller had no problem lowering down to and staying on it. I decided to increase the set point 10° to 240° and once the controller boosted the temp it's been staying at 239° for about 2 hours. I don't know if I just lucked out in getting a good MES 30 Gen 1 or not. All I know is it's doing exactly what it was designed to do.


----------



## daricksta

mummel said:


> Interesting point about the juice.  Doesnt it also soften the bark and wash off some of the spices?


In the past few weeks I've smoked both baby backs and a pork shoulder. I cooked them both unfoiled for a length of time and then foiled. I remove the foil from the baby backs during the last 30 minutes to an hour. My experience has been there was plenty of bark, that it hadn't been softened by the juice. But my family doesn't like thick bark anyway so I also foil to minimize its formation.


----------



## daricksta

I don't want to come across like I think I'm a hotshot smoker or better than anyone else. The truth is I don't experience all the problems with my MES 30 that others post about with theirs. Now that Bear and a couple of other guys have clarified how the MES controller works, I think my previous temp swing issues were due to my not keeping my hand off the temp adjust buttons. I didn't know that it was normal for the controller to overshoot my set point and that it would come down. So I was continually raising and lowering temps and the controller was responding accordingly. Today in 9-hour smoke where I cooked two chuck roasts (less than 3 lbs each) I adjusted the temp _twice. _After the controller finished its first cycle or two it stayed on one temp--within a degree or two--until I changed it. So, for the most part I either sat in my chair in front of my computer or did other things while letting my ET-733 monitor the smoker and the meat temps. The most work I had to do was to foil both chuckies when they stalled at 162°. Well, I know the one with the inserted probe did so I figured that the one on the rack above did the same.

Some pro BBQ Pitmasters believe you've got to be at your rig at all times tending to the fire, woodsmoke, and meat or it's just not real BBQ. I disagree. I bought an electric smoker because I wanted smoking to be easy and enjoyable. Either I've gotten to be pretty good at what I do or I lucked out with the smoker I bought, or both. In any case, I thank Bear, Jted, Dr. K, and Chef JimmyJ for demystifying the MES controller so that I can now kick back and for the most part let it do its thing.


----------



## mummel

Guys in camping under the stars sitting around a campfire :) I'm with you Re: set it and forget it. MES all the way!


----------



## Bearcarver

That's Great Rick!!

Sounds like you got one of the better Temp holding MES units. That's one of the reasons I always say, "They're all different".

I might be imagining it, but it seemed mine was acting a little funny for quite awhile before the Heating element quit on me last week.

I'm hoping once I get that connector & get it in there, maybe my MES will work smoother than it has in a long time.  We'll See!!

Bear


----------



## dr k

daRicksta said:


> I don't want to come across like I think I'm a hotshot smoker or better than anyone else. The truth is I don't experience all the problems with my MES 30 that others post about with theirs. Now that Bear and a couple of other guys have clarified how the MES controller works, I think my previous temp swing issues were due to my not keeping my hand off the temp adjust buttons. I didn't know that it was normal for the controller to overshoot my set point and that it would come down. So I was continually raising and lowering temps and the controller was responding accordingly. Today in 9-hour smoke where I cooked two chuck roasts (less than 3 lbs each) I adjusted the temp _twice._ After the controller finished its first cycle or two it stayed on one temp--within a degree or two--until I changed it. So, for the most part I either sat in my chair in front of my computer or did other things while letting my ET-733 monitor the smoker and the meat temps. The most work I had to do was to foil both chuckies when they stalled at 162°. Well, I know the one with the inserted probe did so I figured that the one on the rack above did the same.
> 
> Some pro BBQ Pitmasters believe you've got to be at your rig at all times tending to the fire, woodsmoke, and meat or it's just not real BBQ. I disagree. I bought an electric smoker because I wanted smoking to be easy and enjoyable. Either I've gotten to be pretty good at what I do or I lucked out with the smoker I bought, or both. In any case, I thank Bear, Jted, Dr. K, and Chef JimmyJ for demystifying the MES controller so that I can now kick back and for the most part let it do its thing.


Those were kind words. Ive been waiting over a month and MB said my new MES Gen 1 40" 20070311 with the free leg kit ships Monday. With the delay they said i can have a free assessory of my choice so chose the leg extension. I hope it doesn't come by covered wagon like the first one. 
-Kurt


----------



## mtm29575

Great advise once again Bear. All us MES owners thank you.


----------



## Bearcarver

mtm29575 said:


> Great advise once again Bear. All us MES owners thank you.


Thank You Mark!!

I Appreciate That !!

Bear


----------



## daricksta

Dr K said:


> Those were kind words. Ive been waiting over a month and MB said my new MES Gen 1 40" 20070311 with the free leg kit ships Monday. With the delay they said i can have a free assessory of my choice so chose the leg extension. I hope it doesn't come by covered wagon like the first one.
> -Kurt


Maybe MB spent money on them new-fangled turbocharged covered wagons. They go through a lot of horses with them turbochargers shoved up their heines but the packages are sure delivered fast!


----------



## mummel

Found this pic in another thread.  This is essentially what the MES does at startup.  It's a good 2 hours before things settle down.  Huge design flaw IMO.













900x900px-LL-0a666574_image.jpeg



__ mummel
__ Jul 22, 2015


----------



## will75

Must be nice to not have a MES 40.. gen 2.. We are always under temp vs controller temp.  Just bought the new top vent BT... I hope it has a good temp controller


----------



## brickguy221

will75 said:


> Must be nice to not have a MES 40.. gen 2.. We are always under temp vs controller temp.  Just bought the new top vent BT... I hope it has a good temp controller


My former Gen 2.0 was always under temp on controller vs actual temp. For example, the controller temp would say 195-200 while the actual shelf temp was 235-240.


----------



## daricksta

mummel said:


> Found this pic in another thread.  This is essentially what the MES does at startup.  It's a good 2 hours before things settle down.  Huge design flaw IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> __ mummel
> __ Jul 22, 2015


I went to a pro/am BBQ competition yesterday. One of the amateurs had a Traeger showing the cook temp on a red LED display screen. I think he was cooking brisket. Guess what? First time I looked the temp was 243F° and I thought "OK, he likes to cook at that temp." A few minutes later I looked again and the temp was down to 204F°. Talk about a temp swing! No different from some of the Masterbuilts. 

With my MES 30 Gen 1 once I get past the initial warm up cycle I'm no longer getting those wide temp swings. Even if it takes a couple of hours for the controller to stabilize that doesn't bother me. I make my minor temp adjustments. It's how it all comes out at the end which matters.


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## electriclouie

I have a 30 inch signature mes smoker should I purchase a maverick or could I be safe and stay with what I have


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## electriclouie

As far as the temperature gauge goes


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## daricksta

ElectricLouie said:


> I have a 30 inch signature mes smoker should I purchase a maverick or could I be safe and stay with what I have


Don't know which generation MES 30 you have but I swear by my Maverick ET-733. It can be a bear to set up but you can use it without choosing meat types and temps. I set it up including the alarm every time I use it. You can't trust the older controller temp displays. That may have changed with the Gen 2.5 smokers.


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## balcy

I know this thread has been dormant for a couple of months but thought I could add more information for anyone interested. My recently seasoned MES is an analog 30 with a stainless steel door purchased by someone else from QVC a couple of years ago and never unpacked. Yesterday, in its maiden voyage, I smoked 3 large marinated bone-in chicken breasts inside my garage (with the overhead door open). The temp outside was 30F with a constant breeze toward the smoker. I used a Maverick 733 and a new Amazen tray smoker with their hickory pellets. I didn't have a propane torch yet so I used my kitchen gas stove to light the pellets after warming them up first in the microwave like others suggested here too. Worked great!

My MES controller has no temps on it but a color scale. Mine was set to just below half way My BBQ probe was placed on the center of the 3rd rack down inside a potato (great tip I read here). When I turned it on it went up to 252F when the light went out and it coasted to around 270F. I watched it go down to 252F when the light came on again and it continued to drop until it was at 242F when it started going up again. I lowered the controller a little as I wanted it around 240F. After about 30 min, I put the chicken on a cookie tray on the second rack with a temp probe in the biggest breast. I placed the Amazen tray inside that was smoking away. The smoker temps swung between 228F to 256F for about an hour when it went up to over 265F. I watched it for a couple of cycles at the higher temp so I lowered the controller a little again and it settled back to a range of 226-256 for another hour or so, At 2 hrs total it suddenly went to a much narrower swing of 255-260F. Since it was way too high I lowered the controller again a little and the wide swings returned. The chicken steadlily climbed to 160F and then stalled for probably 20 minutes.Now at 2 1/2 hrs, I raised the smoker controller a little to add more heat. The chicken got to 164F and stalled again so I stopped it cooking. By this time it had been smoking for about 3 hrs with constant TBS from the Amazen (which is amazing). I had loaded it with about 4 inches of pellets knowing I was only going to smoke for a couple of hours.BTW, I placed it on top of the MES chip tray. The water tray was foiled over and not used for moisture. I could see a little TBS leaking around the top of the door the entire time.  

The results? The chicken skin was dark brown but very rubbery. Once the skin was removed, the meat was very moist and full of hickory smoke flavor. Success! As for the temp swings I don't understand why it takes 2 hrs to settle down but it does. I went with the average of the swings to be around 240F for my smoke temp but when it did finally go to a narrow 5 degree swing it was near the top of the range and not the middle. Weird! It was sure nice watching the smoker do its little temperature dance from my warm living room too!  

Balcy


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## Bearcarver

Balcy said:


> I know this thread has been dormant for a couple of months but thought I could add more information for anyone interested. My recently seasoned MES is an analog 30 with a stainless steel door purchased by someone else from QVC a couple of years ago and never unpacked. Yesterday, in its maiden voyage, I smoked 3 large marinated bone-in chicken breasts inside my garage (with the overhead door open). The temp outside was 30F with a constant breeze toward the smoker. I used a Maverick 733 and a new Amazen tray smoker with their hickory pellets. I didn't have a propane torch yet so I used my kitchen gas stove to light the pellets after warming them up first in the microwave like others suggested here too. Worked great!
> 
> My MES controller has no temps on it but a color scale. Mine was set to just below half way My BBQ probe was placed on the center of the 3rd rack down inside a potato (great tip I read here). When I turned it on it went up to 252F when the light went out and it coasted to around 270F. I watched it go down to 252F when the light came on again and it continued to drop until it was at 242F when it started going up again. I lowered the controller a little as I wanted it around 240F. After about 30 min, I put the chicken on a cookie tray on the second rack with a temp probe in the biggest breast. I placed the Amazen tray inside that was smoking away. The smoker temps swung between 228F to 256F for about an hour when it went up to over 265F. I watched it for a couple of cycles at the higher temp so I lowered the controller a little again and it settled back to a range of 226-256 for another hour or so, At 2 hrs total it suddenly went to a much narrower swing of 255-260F. Since it was way too high I lowered the controller again a little and the wide swings returned. The chicken steadlily climbed to 160F and then stalled for probably 20 minutes.Now at 2 1/2 hrs, I raised the smoker controller a little to add more heat. The chicken got to 164F and stalled again so I stopped it cooking. By this time it had been smoking for about 3 hrs with constant TBS from the Amazen (which is amazing). I had loaded it with about 4 inches of pellets knowing I was only going to smoke for a couple of hours.BTW, I placed it on top of the MES chip tray. The water tray was foiled over and not used for moisture. I could see a little TBS leaking around the top of the door the entire time.
> 
> The results? The chicken skin was dark brown but very rubbery. Once the skin was removed, the meat was very moist and full of hickory smoke flavor. Success! As for the temp swings I don't understand why it takes 2 hrs to settle down but it does. I went with the average of the swings to be around 240F for my smoke temp but when it did finally go to a narrow 5 degree swing it was near the top of the range and not the middle. Weird! It was sure nice watching the smoker do its little temperature dance from my warm living room too!
> 
> Balcy


I can't help you with the analog, as all of my experience is with the Digital MES units. (different venting)

I would say you did the right thing by adjusting your MES to get to the temp you want it to average on your 733.

I finish my chicken with a 275° smoker temp, because that's my Max heat. If you can get yours there or higher at the end, you can crisp up that skin.

Hope this helps,

Bear


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## balcy

Thanks Bear I will try that next time. I am sure I can go over 300F since it is the 1500 watt model. I think ~300F is what I used to season it. The chicken skin may have been because of the marinade used (some liquid lemon pepper in a bottle) as it sat in it for a couple of hrs inside the fridge. It sure came out really thick and rubbery. The door thermometer must be for show. It never got above 200F on the dial. I may remove it and insert a Maverick type probe using a grommet to keep it from touching the steel door. The MES is stored inside my garage so rain/snow isn't an issue. I just cleaned the Amazen tray. No apparent air flow flow issues as every single pellet turned to ash even the few loose ones at the end. I never opened the MES door once the chicken was inside. I am impressed! 

Balcy


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## Bearcarver

Balcy said:


> Thanks Bear I will try that next time. I am sure I can go over 300F since it is the 1500 watt model. I think ~300F is what I used to season it. The chicken skin may have been because of the marinade used (some liquid lemon pepper in a bottle) as it sat in it for a couple of hrs inside the fridge. It sure came out really thick and rubbery. The door thermometer must be for show. It never got above 200F on the dial. I may remove it and insert a Maverick type probe using a grommet to keep it from touching the steel door. The MES is stored inside my garage so rain/snow isn't an issue. I just cleaned the Amazen tray. No apparent air flow flow issues as every single pellet turned to ash even the few loose ones at the end. I never opened the MES door once the chicken was inside. I am impressed!
> 
> Balcy


Yeah---Those door therms aren't usually too good !!

I'm glad to hear your Amazing is working good in it---So many MES Analogs have to drill extra holes to get it to work good.

Keep on Smoking!

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> I can't help you with the analog, as all of my experience is with the Digital MES units. (different venting)
> 
> I would say you did the right thing by adjusting your MES to get to the temp you want it to average on your 733.
> 
> I finish my chicken with a 275° smoker temp, because that's my Max heat. If you can get yours there or higher at the end, you can crisp up that skin.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Bear


Do you find that 275° is hot enough to crisp the chicken skin? I know a lot of guys finish it up in the oven at around 350-400° for about 20 minutes or so or toss it on a hot grill over indirect heat for about the same amount of time, more or less, depending on how hot the grill is. I don't recall what I did when I smoked a boneless turkey breast last year.


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> Do you find that 275° is hot enough to crisp the chicken skin? I know a lot of guys finish it up in the oven at around 350-400° for about 20 minutes or so or toss it on a hot grill over indirect heat for about the same amount of time, more or less, depending on how hot the grill is. I don't recall what I did when I smoked a boneless turkey breast last year.


Hi Rick!!

I don't do a lot of Chicken, but the ones I did with a finishing temp of 275° (my Max), came out with Great Skin---Not rubbery at all.

Here's two of them:

*Chicken Thighs (Hickory Smoked)*

*Chicken Things (MES 40 Smoked)*

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> Hi Rick!!
> 
> I don't do a lot of Chicken, but the ones I did with a finishing temp of 275° (my Max), came out with Great Skin---Not rubbery at all.
> 
> Here's two of them:
> 
> *Chicken Thighs (Hickory Smoked)*
> 
> *Chicken Things (MES 40 Smoked)*
> 
> Bear


Foist of all, why aren't both of these titled "MES 40 Smoked" when they were both smoked in your MES 40?


Bearcarver said:


> Hi Rick!!
> 
> I don't do a lot of Chicken, but the ones I did with a finishing temp of 275° (my Max), came out with Great Skin---Not rubbery at all.
> 
> Here's two of them:
> 
> *Chicken Thighs (Hickory Smoked)*
> 
> *Chicken Things (MES 40 Smoked)*
> 
> Bear


Foist of all, both chicken thighs were hickory smoked in your MES 40 so why aren't they both titled as such? And thank you for stoking the pain that cries out its name, Bear! I would love to make your smoked chicken thighs except for one problem: the wife doesn't like chicken thighs; she prefers chicken breasts. Here are chicken thighs chockfull of deep dark-meaty goodness but she prefers the milder taste of chicken (and turkey) white meat. It's very lonely for me being the only one with a gourmet palate in the house...

But on another note, I've got a frozen 12 lb. whole turkey that's fixin' to be smoked later this year. I'm going to try finishing it at 275° and let you know how it turns out with Qview.


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## kjolly

Great advice, makes sense he way controllers  work.


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## Bearcarver

daRicksta said:


> Foist of all, why aren't both of these titled "MES 40 Smoked" when they were both smoked in your MES 40?


LOL---I don't like to name 2 threads exactly the same name. That would make it harder to find the one I'm looking for.

Bear


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## daricksta

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---I don't like to name 2 threads exactly the same name. That would make it harder to find the one I'm looking for.
> 
> Bear


I'll accept that. And now it's time for you and I to do our dance routine.


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## Bearcarver

A
 Andy A
 ---Thank You for the Like.

Bear


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## PapaRed

With the realization that this is an old thread, be advised that it provides much information for this new member. I'm reading each entry with interest, gleaning much info. Some history:

Started using a Weber kettle and WSM 5-6 years ago after spending many years with a gas grill. Have had good luck cooking, and started making sausage. After finally creating an edible recipe, I am at steps 2 and 3 - that being getting the casing right, and maintaining the proper temperature without going over the magic 180 degrees F.

So, I purchased a new MES because I was informed the MES would maintain temperature.  My experience cooking sausage today has not been what I consider a success. 

Started this morning drying the links and applying smoke using my WSM. Transferred the links to the MES and set the temperature to the prescribed 140 degrees. Here are my temp settings and temp readings. I'm using both my ET-732 and my Meater+ to validate temperatures.
*Temperature Fluctuations*
Temp Set 140°F Temp: 138°F - 153°F (-2 to +13) 15°F Swing (11%)
Temp Set 150°F Temp: 147°F - 162°F (-3 to +12) 15°F Swing (10%)
Temp Set 155°F Temp: 146°F - 169°F (-9 to +15) 24°F Swing (15%)
Temp Set 165°F Temp: 156°F - 172°F (-9 to +7) 16°F Swing (10%)

The sausage has been cooking 10 hours at this point, and the internal temperature is 134 degrees, with my target of 152 degrees. 
Being new at this, I am open to suggestions, since I am not impressed with the results of my efforts thus far.


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## Bearcarver

PapaRed,
I would have to say, those swings aren't really that bad.
Discounting your swing at the setting of 155°, the rest are a total of 15° from top to bottom.
If I really wanted to smoke at 140° with that smoker, I would suggest setting it @ 134°.
That would bring your average smoker temp to about 140° throughout the length of time of your smoke. With swings as small as that, the most important thing is the average Temp.
To get that setting, I just take your total swing (15°), and find the center of that swing (146°). Now since 146° is 6° higher than the 140° you wanted, lower your setting by 6° to bring your swing Temp to an average of 140°.

I don't know how long your smoker held these temps & swings, but I found that the longer I held the same temp, the smaller the swing amount would be.
Also, once the meat warms up, the swing gets a bit less.
Also colder ambient temps tend to add to the swing temp width.
Hope this helps.

Bear


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## Winterrider

^^^^^ good info ^^^^  home ovens are the same principal. Heavy swings either direction until food warms.


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## PapaRed

From a USAF Viet Nam veteran to an Army brother, THANK YOU BearCarver!


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## Bearcarver

PapaRed said:


> From a USAF Viet Nam veteran to an Army brother, THANK YOU BearCarver!



Glad to help!!
And Welcome Home, Brother!!
"Tan Son Nhut" ???

Bear


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## SecondHandSmoker

Yep, 20° temp swings are normal for almost all consumer grade electric smokers.
It is just the nature of the beast. 
When the smoker temp stays above or continues to climb in temp above set point and stays there, then you know you have a problem with either the controller or the the thermocouple. 
Of course, when adding meat to the smoker, the swings even out as now the meat is acting as a heat sink to absorb the flow of thermal energy.
Short of wiring in an aftermarket PID that is capable of holding a +/- 3° delta, most of us electric users will do just as 

 Bearcarver
 suggested by adjusting the controller temp setpoint based on the readings from the remote probe in the smoker. 
My particular smoker will swing +/- 7° to 10° from what my chamber probe indicates. 
That's pretty tight for a mid grade electric smoker.


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## PapaRed

Bearcarver said:


> Glad to help!!
> And Welcome Home, Brother!!
> "Tan Son Nhut" ???
> 
> Bear


Da Nang . Also lot of time in Thailand - Khorat, Thakli, Ubon.  Twenty Seven years with USAF.


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## Bearcarver

PapaRed said:


> Da Nang . Also lot of time in Thailand - Khorat, Thakli, Ubon.  Twenty Seven years with USAF.



Wow, You got around!!
I never left the Mekong Delta. Farthest I got was Saigon/Tan Son Nhut AFB, but I was only in for 3 years.

Bear


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## Cody_Mack

PapaRed said:


> The sausage has been cooking 10 hours at this point, and the internal temperature is 134 degrees, with my target of 152 degrees.


Gonna bump this one again. At 10 hours and sausage is still only 134?

Excellent post by @Bearcarver!; very well explained. Just scored a used MES30 and I'm readin' all about it! 

Rick


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