# MES tripping GFCI



## buckman52

I am taking the advice of Bearcarver and starting a new thread with my problem.  I am reposting my 2 postings here so hopefully someone out there can help me out.

POST #1
This is my first effort at amy posting anywgere so please bear with me.   I have a MES 40" that I have had for about 18 months that has stopped working.  However I do not seem to be having the same wiring problem that has been described and resolved so wonderfully here.   My MES powers up fine and the electronic control works.  I can program in the target temp and the time just fine but as soon as it tries to turn on the heating element it trips the GFCI.  I have tried a different outlet and that one triped also.   I have removed the back and I cannot see any problems with any of the wiring,   Any suggestions????

POST #2
Unfortunately there is no access panel so I drilled out the umpteen hundred rivits.  There is no visible evidence of any wiring problem.  None of the wires are scorched or turning brown.  All the connections are tight and clean.  Wiring does not seem to be the problem which leads me to think that it is an electronic problem.  I am fairly good at fixing electrical wiring problems but I am at a complete loss when it comes to "electronics".  There is a "box" mounted in the bottom panel that I looked in and there is no indication of a problem there.  I contacted MES and since it is a discontinumed model all they could do is offer me a discount on their new model.  I'ld love the new one but there is still too much life in this one if I can bring it back from the dead to be shelling out that kind of money yet.  Anybody know anything about the controler box in the bottom?

Thanks for any ideas.


----------



## mossymo

#1

Try plugging it in and using it on a normal (non-GFCI) outlet. The sump pump in our basement will not operate on a GFCI outlet, it trips it every time; so we keep the sump pump plugged in to a normal outlet.

#2

After 5 years my 30" MES all of sudden started powering itself down within seconds of it trying to power up the burner. I removed the back panel and all the wiring appeared fine, Then I opened up the box that house the 2 polarity connections and the ground connection, these appeared relatively clean but I disconnected each of them anyways and the ground connection had quite a bit of creosote build up which I cleaned up. Reconnected everything and powered it up and it was working normal again. After that I put the back panel back on and so far it has been working fine.

If you have the same issue as I had with problem #2, it may explain problem #1 with your GFCI..... to test plug your MES into a normal outlet too see if the burner powers the MES down.


----------



## dale5351

MossyMO said:


> #1
> 
> Try plugging it in and using it on a normal (non-GFCI) outlet. The sump pump in our basement will not operate on a GFCI outlet, it trips it every time; so we keep the sump pump plugged in to a normal outlet.


It may not be possible for him to reach a non GFI circuit without a long extension cord -- which is not recommended.  My MES is on my deck and the plugs out there are GFI.   Next is my kitchen and all of the circuits there are GFI (which is appartently now code -- although it did not used to be).   I'd need a 50 foot cord to reach a circuit that is not GFI.

Your suggestion about cleaning the contacts sounds worth a try.


----------



## mossymo

dale5351 said:


> It may not be possible for him to reach a non GFI circuit without a long extension cord -- which is not recommended.  My MES is on my deck and the plugs out there are GFI.   Next is my kitchen and all of the circuits there are GFI (which is appartently now code -- although it did not used to be).   I'd need a 50 foot cord to reach a circuit that is not GFI.


dale5351

Even if it were to be plugged in to a normal outlet in a dining room, living room, ect. without an extension cord too test the MES to see if the the burner turning on, powers the unit off. This is just to test, I was not suggesting buckman52 smoke two 6 pound butts in his living room.


----------



## ifitsdeadsmokeit

what else do you have plugged into the circuit that it is on?  circuit could be overloaded....try powering it up on a completely different circuit, i.e. one that works when the breaker for the gfi in in off position, and see what happens.


----------



## dale5351

MossyMo

Perhaps he has a non-GFI circuit in his garage?

The visualization of smoking in the living room appeared to me after I wrote that -- but I didn't get back to edit before you posted it.

I've been through a house fire (30 years ago) and can remember the difficulty of getting that smoke smell out of the house.


----------



## dick foster

If you are absolutly certian that the GFCI outlet is OK, the outlets do go bad, I would probably start with a good ohm meter to find what part of the circuit is leaking current to ground. Or try isolating parts of the circuit starting with the heaters until you find the part of the circut that is tripping the GFCI. Basicly GFCI circuits do two things they look for as much current coming back to the return or white wire as left the hot or black wire and they look for current on the saftey ground or geen wire. If they don't see as much current on the white wire or return of if they seen any on the saftey ground or the green wire they will trip. Like someone else mentioned if you have cresosote build up or moisture or something shorting current to the chassis, then that could be your problem. Then too it could be a component that went bad. First of all, find the part of the circuit that contains the problem by isolation then fix or replace what's wrong.


----------



## tom37

OMG the things my wife would say when she saw the smoker in the living room. LOL

I am no electrician so take this for what its worth.

The last several work trucks I have been given to drive at work have had block heaters. All of these trucks have had block heaters and all would trip a GFI. Dont know why but they do. The truck I drive now must have an actual problem since if my feet are wet and I touch the metal while its plugged in, it will knock ya for a loop.

I have heard tho, that there is alot of GFI troubles with heating elements. I wish I had a solid answer for ya.


----------



## buckman52

Thanks for all the help.  I did (as suggested) plug it into another non gfci protected outlet and it did not trip the circuit.  However after 20 minutes it had not generated any heat either.  I'll try to play with it later and see if I can find a bad connection.  I wouldn't have any idea how to use an ohm meter.


----------



## ifitsdeadsmokeit

sounds like you have a short in your smoker somewhere....if it works on a normal outlet but doesnt heat up and throws the gfi outlet, you problem is at the smoker.


----------



## dick foster

Then find someone who does and let them mess with it. If you're not comfortalbe with mechanics you should not take your car engine apart either. The same thing applies here. However the little bit of electrical here is a lot less complex than taking a car engine apart and putting it back together.


----------



## deltadude

It sounds like the relay is bad.  You said the controller looked like it was working, except when it tried to switch on the element.  The controller is on the low voltage side of a relay, and the relay has a coil in it that when the controller triggers for heat current is sent to the relay and the coil engages the high voltage side and allows 120v to flow through to the heat elements.

Below is a rough schematic provided by    sparksnsaaben in this thread

As you can see there are only 4 items on the high voltage side of the circuit,  transformer which provides low voltage, the element, thermal cut off which is just a switch, and the relay.  Again since the low voltage controller appears to work, thus the transformer appears good, that leaves the element which might have a piece of the connector touching the metal case and thus a short when controller triggers the element.  Next the thermal cut off, really not likely, you can pull off the leads and connect them directly to see if this is the problem.  Last is the relay.

Check that element closely where it goes through the case.






Hope this helps,,   good luck...


----------



## buckman52

Thanks for the schematic.  At least now I have some idea of what is going on.


----------



## thundernoggin

Could be a bad element.  We see this exact problem in spa heater elements all the time.


----------



## dick foster

It shouldn't be causing the GFCI problem but for the no heat problem those thermal cutout switches are well known hi failure items.

The ohm meter should indicate a short circuti across it if it's good. If it reads open, or high resistance, it's bad.

The GFCI problem is probably going to be some sort of contamination leaking current to ground or a bad heating element that has perhaps burned open then the heating wire shorted to chassis ground.


----------



## dorel

I have a similar situation, my electrical heating element works if its disconnected from its place inside the smoker, but when its inside installed normal trips the GFI.

Thanks


----------



## old sarge

Plug an plain old iron or electric skillet into the outlet you use and crank up the heat.  If the GFCI trips, check its wiring and replace the outlet. If not, then your smoker is the problem.  From a pure safety aspect, I would spend the money and get a new smoker. Money can be replaced with another week of work. Electrocution is sort of permanent.


----------



## daveomak

Dorel said:


> I have a similar situation, my electrical heating element works if its disconnected from its place inside the smoker, but when its inside installed normal trips the GFI.
> Thanks




Bypass the electrical circuitry in the smoker and wire in a dimmer switch....   You will have to use an external therm to monitor the temps...  I have a dimmer on mine and the temp control is far superior....  I can regulate the heat output....  like a gas burner regulation...  OR, wire in a PID .....  OR wire in a temp controller to the element....   

Find one that fits your needs and budget....   

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n...roller&ie=UTF8&qid=1417368410&rnid=2941120011


----------



## leefra

I agree with thunder. It sounds to me you have a bad heating element. It is either shorted internally or leaking internally to the outside casing wich is grounded. GFI are not made to trip on overload, only on leakage to ground. 
Try this.
Disconnect the one wire feeding the element (should be black or colored, as opposed to white) and see what happens. It it functions normally ( with no heat of course), it's likely to be the element is shorted and should be replaced...
This is from a retired electrical contractor.
ABC....always be careful[emoji]128521[/emoji]


----------



## wa0auu

The reason is, the ceramic potting inside the heating element is porous and moisture gets in and causes a small amount of current to leak to ground through its high resistance and trips the GFI.  Try this, with the power removed, BE SURE all electric power has been removed, remove the back panel for access to the back of the heating element.  When you can see the heating element, be sure the outside of it is not touching any of the metal on the smoker, if it is you may need to remove the heating element and with a drill make the hole larger so the heating element can not touch the metal of the smoker, just a thought, something to try

The GFI measures the difference in the current on the black ( hot ) going to the heating element and the white wire ( return )  back from the heating element.  If the difference is 180 MA ( I think) or more it trips the GFI.  The GFI is not made to trip from load, only from leaking current.  have the same problem in my sisters new kitchen, every outlet is GFI, nothing works, the toaster trips it, the coffee pot trips it, the refrigerator trips it, the crock pot trips it, the electric pressure cooker trips it, the electric roaster trips it/  The only things that work are the mixer and the microwave oven because they do not have heating elements in them. 

Ohms law says resistance is E (volts ) over I  ( amps)  we know the  smoker is 120 volts and the label says it is rated at 15 amps so 120 over 15 is 8 ohms.  Ohms law also says that watts is E (volts) times I (amps) so 120 times 15 is 1,800 watts, the smoker is 1,800 watts of heat at 8 ohms, if the resistance has gone up to 10 ohms, the current is now  120 over 10 = 12 you are down 3 amps and the heat is now 120 times 12 = 1,440 watts you have lost 360 watts of heat...in just 2 ohms !

best 73's  DE  WAØAUU for 60 years !


----------



## wa0auu

>>>> ! ! ! PLEASE ! tell us what dimmer switch you used for this !  THANK YOU

Ernie in Iowa....WAØAUU


----------



## daveomak

wa0auu said:


> >>>> ! ! ! PLEASE ! tell us what dimmer switch you used for this !  THANK YOU
> Ernie in Iowa....WAØAUU



Is that a question for me ???  

I used a 1500 watt incandescent dimmer on my MES 30....  I did a thread on how to do it....    


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LUTRON-...767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a0198864f


----------



## kiska95

Hi

Just my 2 cents worth but this is UK Sparky info not US but may help. Whenever we get a trip at an electrical outlet in a home it is usually down to a faulty piece of equipment going to ground or shorted, an element in a kettle for example. However I have had occasions where there is nothing faulty but the breaker trips on load say when you switch on the lights with a series of halogen down lighters (not LCD). The problem is the circuit breaker itself. In the UK we use B rated circuit breakers but on occasion lift them to C category. This so that there is a slight delay or allowance for the initial electrical surge. You may have heard of anti-surge fuses (glass type) in some electronics, well same thing. So if you have tested the heating element and its not faulty and nothing else is wrong i.e. going to ground (try it in a neighbours house too) then this could solve your problem, just over sensitivity.

Hope it helps


----------



## eman

My money says you have a bad connecor /connection at the heating element or a bad element. Mine did the same thing. everything looked good when i removed the back panel. But after i tore into it and got to the element connections i had one wire burnt off

 replace all wires w/  12 gauge high temp wire and all connectors w/ stainless stel


----------



## smokin monkey

This is a photo from Saturday, I hire refrigerated trailers, delivered Friday morning to site and positioned it next to the bin right of picture next to trash can.

Lady said that one of their Fridges  had failed its test that morning.

9.30 Saturday morning fridge went up in smoke, taking building with it, Fire Brigade say it was a fault with main distribution board and fault went to fridge and set it on fire.

Food for thought!













image.jpg



__ smokin monkey
__ Jun 28, 2015





Smokin Monkey


----------



## davemhughes

SO mine was trip the GFCI also. I took the panel off and looked it all over real good. Only found one of the contacts to the heating element rusty. I cleaned it and plugged back up still popping the GFCI. I wonder if the electronic control panel on top of my Gen 1 is bad? No idea what the issue is .........

I can get a Universal replacement Heating element for about $40 and just you my digital temp probe to monitor heat?

1300 watt, 110 US volt Heating Element with adjustable mounting bracket and element support feet
Fully Adjustable and Detachable UL Listed 110 volt thermostat Controller
Thoughts?

I do not think if I can not fix it i would buy another Masterbuilt.....just should last longer than it did.....


----------



## kiska95

You should confirm if its actually the element first or its connections. Heating elements are usually the first thing to go and are notorious for tripping boards. By their nature they drag power so degrading through excess heat at the termination point does occur as well as shorting or going open circuit. But it does sound like a short.

Do MES not have spare parts?

Easiest way is to get a Sparky to test it for you.

But If you do not have access to a Sparky or a meter to test the element, you could (if you feel competent enough) disconnect the element making the cable ends thoroughly safe. Plug in the Smoker if it doesn't trip the GFI/RCD then its the element. If it still trips the GFI/RCD then you may have a circuit fault in the smoker, so try it in a neighbours outlet. If it still trips his GFI then its the smoker, if not its your circuit board. Its just a process of elimination.

Hope that helps


----------



## jted

davemhughes said:


> SO mine was trip the GFCI also. I took the panel off and looked it all over real good. Only found one of the contacts to the heating element rusty. I cleaned it and plugged back up still popping the GFCI. I wonder if the electronic control panel on top of my Gen 1 is bad? No idea what the issue is .........
> 
> I can get a Universal replacement Heating element for about $40 and just you my digital temp probe to monitor heat?
> 
> 1300 watt, 110 US volt Heating Element with adjustable mounting bracket and element support feet
> Fully Adjustable and Detachable UL Listed 110 volt thermostat Controller
> Thoughts?
> 
> I do not think if I can not fix it i would buy another Master built.....just should last longer than it did.....


Hi, There are a couple of checks you can do before you invest in a element.

If you insist in buying a element buy from master built. Give them a chance to help you .They may just send you one or a controller free . If you do check the element you will need a multi meter to check the smoker and element with.  You will get help with  the testing if you desire. The first thing you might do is plug it into a non GFCI wall socket and see if it heats.You won't have to run IT long just long enough to check the element.  Jted


----------



## kiska95

Don't think you want to plug it into a Non GFI outlet!!!!! - Do you have them in the US?

You could cause more damage!!!!! that's why the GFI is there and tripping. It is not only there to protect you but also the wiring circuit. Use safer methods.


----------



## jted

We have regular receptacles that are not a ground fault. In fact most receptacles in our houses are non ground fault receptacles. The GFCI are only put in damp or in locations that can have water around . Those include bathrooms kitchens garages . The NEC revises that list every few years. Our ground faults are not designed to protect equipment. They measure changes amperage leaking to the equipment. It is all about the operators safety. They trip at very low levels like .6ma. Our equipment has it's own types of GFCi. I don't recall those right off the top of my head. I do remember there being 3 types of protection.   Jted


----------



## kiska95

Its exactly the same in the UK but its not the recepticals (appliances) i was mentioning its the home wiring circuit itself.


----------



## dc olsen

Although I don't know anything about the box you are referring to, I had a similar issue with a basic electric smoker...it started to pop the GFCI....After talking to an electrician, he recommended I plug it into a non-GFCI outlet and see if it worked...it did. He said that GFCIs are so sensitive that any moisture in the heating element will cause it to trip...after an hour of heating, I tried it in the GFCI again, and it worked fine...just a thought.....


----------



## rsp4834

Does it trip the circuit breaker if not plugged into a GFIC receptacle?


----------



## coconuts

My MES 40" Gen 1 finally quit working on me. I've had it since 9/2011. It initially began tripping the GFCI a few smokes ago but the element quit completely during my last smoke on the 3rd of July. I had bought the extended warranty from Sam's and luckily as a Sam's Plus Member I get an extra year on the warranty or otherwise I would be SOL. I shipped it off today for repair or replacement. My concern is they are going to try and give me a Gen 2 to replace my unit.

Has anybody had any experience with the extended warranty service from Sam's Club on the MES 40" Gen 1?


----------



## coconuts

To those who have a MES unit tripping the GFCI I would recommend checking your connections at the heating element and if you see any corrosion or burnt wiring there replacing the wire with 12 gauge high heat wire and stainless steel connectors. I think tripping of your GFCI is a warning of things to come. Just saying. I experienced the same thing before my unit quit altogether but I just changed to a non-GFCI outlet and it seemed to work fine. I just worry that it may be a fire or shock hazard to do that. I know that means drilling out all your rivets to access the heating element connection box but better safe than sorry. Be sure to unplug the unit before you start working on this!!!


----------



## davemhughes

Well its just not a functioning unit. I am seriously just thinking of upgrading as I just should got more life out of the MES I believe. Looking at a SI or Tex and save the MES for pure cold smoking.....Buy once, cry once mind set right now.


----------



## daveomak

davemhughes said:


> Well its just not a functioning unit. I am seriously just thinking of upgrading as I just should got more life out of the MES I believe. Looking at a SI or Tex and save the MES for pure cold smoking.....Buy once, cry once mind set right now.




Did you take the corroded connection apart....  sand it, brush it....  re solder it to try and fix it.....


----------



## walta

Please be very careful I have seen a pair of  gen 1 masterbuilt where the wire for the heater developed a bad connection and came loose and could have touched the case.

The unit had the symptoms you described buckman52.

If the broken heater wire were to touch the case and the ground pin of your cord, outlet or extension cord are broken and you use a non GFI receptacle. The possibilities of an electrical shock or death are very high.

I will not operate any Masterbuilt product unless I am sure

1 The outlet will light 2 yellow lamps on the tester I have linked to

2 The ground pin of the smokers cord and any extension cords are in good condition.

3 The circuit is GFCI protected.

I am stunned these smokers have not been recalled by the Consumer Product Safety Council.

Coconuts please post a link to your “stainless steel connectors” I personally do not think they exist as stainless steel is a poor conductor.

I filed the heater down the good metal and solder high heat wire to the heaters terminals.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Receptacle-Tester-RT100/203195018

Walta


----------



## kiska95

Here Here (UK Sparky)!!!!!


----------



## jted

walta said:


> Please be very careful I have seen a pair of  gen 1 masterbuilt where the wire for the heater developed a bad connection and came loose and could have touched the case.
> 
> The unit had the symptoms you described buckman52.
> 
> If the broken heater wire were to touch the case and the ground pin of your cord, outlet or extension cord are broken and you use a non GFI receptacle. The possibilities of an electrical shock or death are very high.
> 
> I will not operate any Masterbuilt product unless I am sure
> 
> 1 The outlet will light 2 yellow lamps on the tester I have linked to
> 
> 2 The ground pin of the smokers cord and any extension cords are in good condition.
> 
> 3 The circuit is GFCI protected.
> 
> I am stunned these smokers have not been recalled by the Consumer Product Safety Council.
> 
> Coconuts please post a link to your “stainless steel connectors” I personally do not think they exist as stainless steel is a poor conductor.
> 
> I filed the heater down the good metal and solder high heat wire to the heaters terminals.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Receptacle-Tester-RT100/203195018
> 
> Walta


Hi, it only makes good sense to have good grounded cables on both or   either or the extension cord or smoker cord. It is essential to have the receptacles wired with the right polarity.

You are right as far as I know about the construction of high temperature connectors The typically are  made of copper coated in nickel steel. Normal connectors with nylon insulators are only good to something in the 300 degree range the non insulated approach 900 degree's The big box stores sell the low temperature connectors rather cheaply at about .10 or .15 cents each where as the non insulated are not available at the box stores and are harder to find and are .50 each.  Another case of you get what you pay for.  Jted


----------



## daveomak

The low temp. connectors work if you remove the plastic and wrap with fiberglass electrical tape....


----------



## gav iscon

Element in my opinioin. Not that i've seen your smoker but I've repaired loads of kettles and cookers where the element looks fine but not and is shorted out. Can you unplug the element  (make sure its safe) and then see what happens when it attempts to switch it on.?


----------



## dr k

jted said:


> Hi, it only makes good sense to have good grounded cables on both or   either or the extension cord or smoker cord. It is essential to have the receptacles wired with the right polarity.
> 
> You are right as far as I know about the construction of high temperature connectors The typically are  made of copper coated in nickel steel. Normal connectors with nylon insulators are only good to something in the 300 degree range the non insulated approach 900 degree's The big box stores sell the low temperature connectors rather cheaply at about .10 or .15 cents each where as the non insulated are not available at the box stores and are harder to find and are .50 each.  Another case of you get what you pay for.  Jted


Exactly!  I have only used my MES with an appliance extension cord (at least 1875 watts and under 8 ft.)  I have never used my MES without an appliance cord.  Damn things aren't long enough!

-Kurt


----------



## kodiakfire

GFCI's are not infallible. You may have a bad one.  If the test button won't "trip" the GFCI, then it is defective and, by the way, provides no shock/electrocution protection.  You need to plug it into a non-GFCI branch and see if if still cycles the over current-protection device.  If the circuit still trips, then there is a ground fault somewhere in the device and it is drawing excessive current.   That being the case, stop using it and figure you'll have to get another one or repair the problem.

If the non-GFCI circuit operates ok, then replace the GFCI.


----------



## butchtc

I have often read threads about not using an extension cord on these electric smokers Masterbuilt or not. The truth of the matter is if you use an extension cord, as I always have without issue, it has to be at least made from 12 Gauge wire or heavier, i.e. 10 Gauge or 8 Gauge and you'll be just fine. Residential wiring that supplies 120 volts to all your receptacles in your house are wired with AWG-12/2 w/ground to handle 15 amp circuits and there is no problem there. Inexpensive extension cords that are made from #14 or #16 gauge wire are too light creating an elevated level of resistance and that could pop breakers, but could also very easily burn up the 800 - 1500 watt heating elements found in these smokers due to voltage and or amperage starvation, for lack of better words. Think of it like a water pipe, if you have a big pipe running into a smaller pipe water flow slows. Your electric smoker can't tell that it's plugged into your house receptacle or a 12 gauge (or heavier) extension cord...no difference. Note: You can run a 12 Gauge extension cord out to 250 feet in length without a voltage drop, longer than that you must go to a 10 or 8 Gauge extension cord, but those get fairly pricey. Hope this helps and sorry for rambling.

Butchtc

Arnold, Missouri


----------



## coconuts

Walta,

Just Google Stainless Steel High Heat Spade Connectors and multiple sources will come up.

Coconuts


----------



## kodiakfire

My Mastercraft is an 800 watt unit which will draw 6.6 amperes (I=Power/Voltage=800/120 or if you prefer 800/110 which will produce 7.3 amperes.  Cord ratings are typically: #10 wire can safely carry 30 amperes, #12 wire will carry 25 amperes (older cabling will say 20 amperes), #14 wire will carry 15 amperes (source is NEC).  Since all properly wired residences have both #14 & #12 wires in the branch circuits, my smoker can be plugged into any of my outlets (outside ones of course).  
Powering a device with a too-small diameter wire will have no effect on the heating element. However, you will deteriorate the wire's insulation and, depending on the over current error, you can fail the wire's insulation covering.  That's not a wise idea.  The minimal over current protection size in residential branch circuits is either 15 or 20 amperes. Therefore, using an undersized cable, when the over current value remains at or below the breaker/fuse rating won't cause the breaker/fuse to cycle.  However, either can and probably will cycle when the heated cable fails its insulation covering and begins to fault.  Sorry to challenge butchtc, but his characterizations  are not accurate. His comment on problems that may develop using a very long extension cord is for another discussion. As I mentioned in an earlier post, tripping GFCI's means either a defective GFCI or a potential shock hazard with the device. Both need further investigation and I would not use the smoker nor rely on the GFCI to prevent a shock hazard until you have solved the problem


----------



## bryceb

Bringing this thread back to life... I had a similar issue this morning with my MasterForge 30" (Lowes rebranded MES30).  Turns out that the heating element was either completing a circuit to ground by way of a wood chip(must have been damp) in between it and the metal heating box under it or maybe actually touching the metal.  I had to push down on the metal to dislodge the chip and after that, all was good.  Prior to that, the GFIC outlet would pop before I could get the plug in all the way.  It did however work fine on a non GFI circuit for a test.


----------



## wa0auu

If you can get it to me, I will be glad to do some testing on it for you.  I live in north east Iowa.  my email is     [email protected]  just let me know when you will be here.

We used to have the same problem when we used wood chips, after we changed to pellets we have not had that problem

'

sparky    ( electronics engineer )  and ham radio operator for 57 years 

had a thought, you tell me where you are and my brother and i might take a road trip


----------



## jted

butchtc said:


> I have often read threads about not using an extension cord on these electric smokers Masterbuilt or not. The truth of the matter is if you use an extension cord, as I always have without issue, it has to be at least made from 12 Gauge wire or heavier, i.e. 10 Gauge or 8 Gauge and you'll be just fine. Residential wiring that supplies 120 volts to all your receptacles in your house are wired with AWG-12/2 w/ground to handle 15 amp circuits and there is no problem there. Inexpensive extension cords that are made from #14 or #16 gauge wire are too light creating an elevated level of resistance and that could pop breakers, but could also very easily burn up the 800 - 1500 watt heating elements found in these smokers due to voltage and or amperage starvation, for lack of better words. Think of it like a water pipe, if you have a big pipe running into a smaller pipe water flow slows. Your electric smoker can't tell that it's plugged into your house receptacle or a 12 gauge (or heavier) extension cord...no difference. Note: You can run a 12 Gauge extension cord out to 250 feet in length without a voltage drop, longer than that you must go to a 10 or 8 Gauge extension cord, but those get fairly pricey. Hope this helps and sorry for rambling.
> 
> Butchtc
> 
> Arnold, Missouri


Butchtc, I will have to disagree with you on the voltage drop of a 12AWG cord out to 250 feet not having voltage drop. At 250 feet your voltage drop with a 6.6 amp load(800 watts) is 5.29 volts or 4.41%. 

Always use the shortest cord you can. Example  A 14 AWG cord of 25 feet with a load of 6.6 amps only loses 0.84 volts. No matter what size cord you use be aware of what other items may be on the came circuit.

A 3% drop of voltage is the largest that normal power tools should experience. I am not sure about heating elements but I don't think it is larger. Keep it as short if you can.  Jted


----------



## jafoesq

My MES30 started tripping the GFCI immediatly upon trying to plug it in also.  I contacted Masterbuilt customer service thinking the control panel on the MES was bad.  They informed me it was the box that was bad.  Even though my MES was out of warranty they sent me a new box.  All I had to do was send them a copy of my purchase receipt and pics of the cord cut flush w/the box and the removed serial number plate.  When the new box arrived i just had to transfer the door and control panel and throw the old box away.  Excellent customer service from Masterbuilt.


----------



## butchdon

now that was awesome Customer Service. I bought mine used so that will not work for me. But it's good to know for future purchases.


----------



## butchdon

I skipped from the first page to here , but I did notice there was no "ground" symbol in that schematic. The MES comes with a 3 wire connector so it seems like it should be indicated on the schematic, somewhere prior to the transformer.


----------



## agginativetexan

I have had some experience with bad heating elements. Disconnect wires to both sides of the actual heating element(s) and then plug in and try unit. If it has more than one element (I am not familiar with this unit), and does not trip the GFCI then reconnect them one at a time to determine the bad element. The actual heating coil sometimes touches a ground point when it expands as it heats. Best of luck.

Electronics are a different story, you can only look for an obvious short (burn spot on a metal part) or some loose piece making contact. Small shorts to ground will trip a GFCI before the actual breaker trips.


----------



## mike a

My MES (rebranded with Bass Pro) has started to pop the GFI but not until it hits 140 degrees... Sound like the element?


----------



## cayotica

Is your MES digital or analog? cayotica


----------



## mike a

Digital front mount control board. It heats to about 140 then trips the outlet. I have tested the outlet itself and it is fine.


----------



## cayotica

Yeah sounds like the electronics, not!  the electronic only use a few volts and amps must be relays in there activate the high voltages...one of them is going to ground when  activated. I would try to get a wiring diagram and find that relay.


----------



## agginativetexan

Have you disconnected the element. Heating normally to some point and then tripping a GFCI (not the breaker itself leads one to theink about the thermostat, a bimetalic device that shorts at some point, I would guess.Looking at the diagram I found in this forum, (not a good one at that) it will take some patience to troubleshoot it. I can't tell what are the individual modules, but replacing and trying might be your best bet. Good Luck!













image.jpg



__ WaterinHoleBrew
__ Oct 11, 2014


----------



## cayotica

Oh! My bust, thought you breakers were tripping too. Still the same though something is grounding I'll have to do some homework the diagram helps a lot. I will check with my electric whiz brother he has an MES ALSO see you soon


----------



## cayotica

is it just me or does my iPad hate me. My brother wants to know if what will happen if you insulate the MES FROM the ground put some wood under the legs and cord something is interfering with the flow from hot to neutral ever so lightly just wants to make sure it isn't going to ground. P.s. He says he hates those dam GFCIs says even weak insulation in perfectly good looking wires could cause It. Myself I still don't think its in the electronics...still betting on the relay.


----------



## greywolf1

Being in the woodworking industry , I have had the joy of dealing with heating elements . There are no GFCI's on the  machines  that I work on just breakers . The main causes for issues with the heating elements when they start tripping breakers are  age or moisture , age being amount of use . If it gets a ton of use it wears out faster , moisture , if it sits for an extended amount of time without use in a damp place ( like on our decks ) moisture will creep into everything . If it starts tripping the breaker , nine times out of ten its the element ( at which time you clean or change the connectors anyway ). This has little to do with smokers just heating element issues . I don't do a ton of smoking but if it sits for more then a week or two  I do heat it up for a couple of hours to dry it out  

Just my two cents worth


----------



## walta

I disagree it is not a just a heater issue. How often does your Electric stove, toaster oven, coffee maker, hair dryer fail?  The MES failure rate is off the chart compared to other appliances.

In my opinion the problem has mutable sources.

1 The poor quality plating on terminals of the heating element.

2 The size of the wire connecting to the element is too small.

3 The connector between the wire and the element is poor quality.

4 The poor seal between the smoke chamber and the electrical connections.

5 Storing our smokers in unheated locations, allows moisture to attack the connections.

I feel Masterbuilt could fix the problem but chooses not to as they have this market niche (electronic controlled smoker under $500.00) to themselves. If you are unable to fix your MES most of us will buy another. The only way they will change is if market competition or the regulators force a change.  

I for one have filed a complaint with the Consumer Product Safety Commission.  If Masterbuilt were going to change on its own it would have done so by now.

If you have had a similar failure please consider filing a complaint.

https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx

Walta


----------



## cayotica

Almost sounds reasonable, I was going to store mine in out door shed...no head, no air conditioning,no environmental control at all. My brother keeps his in climate controlled garage (well sort of) what do you think. Maybe heat it up weekly? Or what ...unfortunately no garage for me.


----------



## jted

walta said:


> I disagree it is not a just a heater issue. How often does your Electric stove, toaster oven, coffee maker, hair dryer fail?  The MES failure rate is off the chart compared to other appliances.
> 
> In my opinion the problem has mutable sources.
> 
> 1 The poor quality plating on terminals of the heating element.
> 
> 2 The size of the wire connecting to the element is too small.
> 
> 3 The connector between the wire and the element is poor quality.
> 
> 4 The poor seal between the smoke chamber and the electrical connections.
> 
> 5 Storing our smokers in unheated locations, allows moisture to attack the connections.
> 
> I feel Masterbuilt could fix the problem but chooses not to as they have this market niche (electronic controlled smoker under $500.00) to themselves. If you are unable to fix your MES most of us will buy another. The only way they will change is if market competition or the regulators force a change.
> 
> I for one have filed a complaint with the Consumer Product Safety Commission.  If Masterbuilt were going to change on its own it would have done so by now.
> 
> If you have had a similar failure please consider filing a complaint.
> 
> https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx
> 
> Walta


Hi, I agree with some of your ideas. Yes the connector is junk,plain and simple it fails. Weather or not they have chained the connectors to hi temp nickle plated ones I hare no idea. if they have a nylon or silicone insulator on the connector they probably have not changed it. 

The wire on my MES 30 is hi temp and appears to be 16 GA wire. That is adequate to operate 6.6 amps.

The seal between the smoke chamber and the connectors is minimum at best since it is just two holes with a rubber grommet to separate the spaces. I feel the rubber seal is ok. Some smokers just have the element just sitting in the bottom of the box. The connectors are somewhat protected. There is a another out side seal between the inspection plate and the connectors. 

I whole hardily agree that we often store our smokers in the wrong places. I am my own worst enemy when it comes to that. I store mine outside covered in the weather. that is my fault not Masterbuilts. 

Had I spent 300.00 dollars for a 40" I would have not abused it. 

As far as involving the government I have my own feelings and opinions on that. I don't want to involve a group of bureaucratic paper pushers who don't know the difference between a electric and a stick burner. But that is just me.   Jted


----------



## a g k

I have a Bradley Digital with the 900 watt element mod that worked fine for a while. It is stored in our walk out basement so it stays dry. When the GFI started tripping after about 2 hours into smoke several times, I tried using a 3 wire to 2 wire adapter to see if it still tripped, & it didn't. Then looked further as didn't want to run without safety ground in place. Noticed there was burnt grease on element and power connector. & also on oven frame. After a good cleaning of old grease, no more GFI trips. This may be another possible cause to look for as it worked for me.

A G K


----------



## cayotica

GFI's may save lives, but they're the tools of the devil. On some occasions it's the GFI's fault and they need to be replaced. Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge there's no reliable was to test them.


----------



## smokemifugottem

I had the same problem with a refrigerator.Ran perfectly for about (10) years then started kicking the GFCI, not all the time but on an annoying basis. I am fortunate enough to work with some very knowledgeable Electrical Engineers so I posed the problem to him. Here's what he told me:
A GFCI operates by measuring the voltage in and out of the device plugged into it..if the voltage in/out varies more than a certain amount (don't remember the exact amount) then the GFCI trips. 
This meant something was wrong (electrically) with the fridge. Since the biggest electrical draw from a fridge is the compressor motor, I assumed this motor was going bad, but not bad enough to trip the GFCI all the time. 
What I did was replace the GFCI with a standard outlet knowing that if  the motor was going really bad I.e., shorting out, I was still protected by the circuit breaker in the main panel.
The fridge ran fine for another (8) months until (3) weeks ago the compressor motor died for good! Never kicking the breaker in the main panel.
Let me include that the first thing I did was replace the original GFCI to rule it out of the equation. The new GFCI tripped out as well, so I knew it wasn't a bad GFCI.
From the afore mentioned experience, I think you have an electrical issue with the largest, and probably only, electrical draw on the smoker-the coil, burner, element or whatever the proper term is.
Don't know the cost of a replacement element but it's your decision whether is worth the cost.

Hope this helps. Didn't mean to ramble...............

smokemifugottem


----------



## a g k

cayotica said:


> GFI's may save lives, but they're the tools of the devil. On some occasions it's the GFI's fault and they need to be replaced. Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge there's no reliable was to test them.


  I agree that they are a PITB, however I have found if you can plug the suspected appliance into a different GFI circuit using a heavy duty extension cord to see if it trips that GFI circuit as well can indicate if GFI is bad or not. I happen to have a 50 ft 10 gauge extension so voltage drop is not a problem.

A G K


----------



## cayotica

I agree my brother who smokes with an MSE says if you have to use an extension cord use a very heavy duty one, he says GFI will trip  for almost no reason at all even a little bit of moisture will cause that to happen


----------



## wa0auu

I sure wish I could get my hands on a smoker that did this so I can do some testing on it.  We know it is rated at 15 amps, Ohms law tells us that R resistance is E over I and we know E is 120 volts

120 volts divided by 15 amps is 8 ohms. The resistance of the heating element will be around 8 ohms depending on its use.   I would open the back of the unit ( >>>WITH ALL POWER REMOVED ! <<< )  and remove all the wires on the heating element and check its resistance and check for  > any < resistance from both ends of the heating element to ground, there should be none.  then put the wires back on the heating element one at a time and check for resistance to ground again, from both ends of the heating element.

are you using wood chips or pellets ?  When we first started we used the chips and found that they can touch the heating element and there was resistance to ground through the wood.  Your GFI outlet is built so it will trip ( to keep you safe ) if there is any voltage on the green ground wire.  When we changed to the pellets we no longer had a problem with it tripping

what happens if you remove the green wire on the power cord at the smoker ? ( be sure all power is REMOVED when you work with any of the wires <<< )  Does it still trip ?  Oh so many things I want to check ((>>>>> BE SURE ! to put the green wire BACK ! <<<<<  where it was)

I would try to plug it in to a non GFI outlet and check for VOLTAGE from the smoker to ground, it may be a very small amount but start with the meter on the 120 or more scale and work your way down to the lowest range and see if there is any voltage.

If anyone with this problem does this please email me direct at     [email protected]      and let me know what you found out    >>please !!!! <<


----------



## cayotica

I have been informed that a GFI the checks moisture in the circuit that's all it does the text moisture and if it does the text moisture it trips hey does anybody know if this is true for not?


----------



## wa0auu

It does not " check" for " moisture"  it checks for current flow balance .  A GFI monitors the current flow from the hot to the neutral and hot to ground, any time there is an imbalance it will trip and turn the current off.  It can sense a mis match as small as 4 milliamps.

Now, one of the things that can cause current to flow from hot to ground is moisture but the GFI does not check for moisture as there are other things that can cause it to trip

sparky


----------



## jted

cayotica said:


> I have been informed that a GFI the checks moisture in the circuit that's all it does the text moisture and if it does the text moisture it trips hey does anybody know if this is true for not?


Hi, GRCI's are not as mysterious as they sometimes are thought of they are very simple in theory. All they do is measure The power (amperage) that goes out on the Hot wire and then what comes back on the neutral or white wire. That is the slightly wider prong on the plug. If there is any difference (4 to 6 Milliampers) it trips the receptacle. It figures the lost amperage has gone to ground.

Good common sense should always prevail. Any damage to the cord should be repaired prior to use.

Saying this is like having a warning label on a gun barrel or on a pack of cigarettes.

Just to get a feel for what low levels it trips at you may feel 1ma (a tingle)  at 4-6 the GfCI trips and at 10 ma you can still let go but at 15 ma you hang on and it goes on from there. Most of us will survive a encounter of 30ma. From there up amperage causes damage .Remember that electricity is harder on children than adults.

I hope this helps   Jted

Edit of the post.

I just read WaOauu post. I guess we were writing at the same time. He is correct It can sense moisture but that is not it's main function.


----------



## cayotica

Actually it helps a lot, so a gfi looks for a loss of amps between the spades, does a circuit breaker measure run away amps?


----------



## smokeymose

Have you considered switching to gas, buckman? I smoked electric for two years, also on a GFI circuit, when one day the outlet just stopped working. Nothing tripped; it just quit, as did the outlets in the bathrooms and garage (all the same circuit). Four outlets had to be replaced. Although I was careful not to have anything going on the circuit while the smoker was going, apparently it was enough to slowly cook the GFIs (the old ones were actually brown with melted insulation on some of the wires). Having worked HVAC for Trane about a hundred years ago, I thought I knew everything I needed to know about electricity, but GFIs are a whole different animal, and frankly I don't have a clue what they're about, except that they're mechanical and electronic and don'follow the same rules.
Maybe there's a problem with the element or the controller or something. At what point do you decide it's not worth the hassle (or danger).?
I hope you get it sorted out. For what it's worth, I've has a gasser all summer, and other than not being able to get the low temps, I love it.


----------



## novegan007

Safety first! Take a multimeter and put one probe on your mes.. (while plugged in)..any major metal part, next take the other probe and touch it to a true ground... the metal part of a junction box or a water pipe. If you read any significant voltage scap the unit and get a new one, it's not worth an accidental electrocution.


----------



## greywolf1

I'm sorry but I can't take this any longer , anybody that works in manufacturing , how long do you think you would be working if everything that you made lasted to our expectations.

Big or small companies, everything that is manufactured is made to break down at some point . Some parts are made to last longer then others. Parts are how a lot of companies made a big part of their money . To bash a company for making something that breaks down is selfish on our part . No I don't work for Master Built but I have manufactured  machines in the past and I have worked for companies that kept people working because of the parts that they manufactured . A perfect world would be one where nothing breaks down but at the same time nobody would be working either . Sorry for the rant but to bash someone for wanting to make money and keep people employed come on now.

Again , sorry for the rant


----------



## wkearney99

Doesn't much look like anyone's making that complaint.

Any time any company makes something they have to balance between what the customers are willing to pay and how much the pieces and process cost them to deliver it.  There's not many times where a company deliberately short-changes a customer in the hopes of baiting them into buying replacement parts.  Word of that kind of nonsense gets out and the company's reputation (and sales) tanks as a result.  Yeah, it sounds like a great rumor, it's just not usually true.

It's important to realize there's likely always a better or more durable part or process that could be used, for ANYTHING.  But it's sadly not usually cost-effective to make and sell it.  Best you can hope for is the better part/process being something that can be added or replaced later.


----------



## johnmeyer

Having an EE degree (although a LONG time ago), wa0auu's explanation is the correct one: the GFI looks at _current_, not voltage, and compares the current going _into _the smoker with the current coming back. The two must be equal. If they are not, some of that current found another place to go, like through your body and out through your bare feet standing on concrete. This can happen if there is moisture between the hot lead and something that eventually touches the floor, or if there is insulation breakdown, or if a wire has come loose.

The GFI is not a circuit breaker and is not necessarily going to trip if something shorts out or starts drawing too much current.

The idea of putting the smoker on a sheet of plastic or a dry cardboard box is a good one, and should help determine if there really is a fault to ground. Either of those items will completely insulate it from the floor.

In my experience, GFIs in outdoor receptacles can get very flaky and start tripping, sometimes with nothing connected at all. When this happens you have to replace the GFI. When you do replace them, get one that is labeled "weather resistant," or something similar. Here's one of hundreds of weather-resistant GFIs (I'm not necessarily recommending this particular unit):

Weather Resistant GFI

These weather resistant units have additional potting material around the electronics that makes them last a little longer in damp locations. Also, check the outlet's receptacle for signs of moisture. Just two months ago I had to replace the box next to my BBQ (and which I now use for my smoker) because the weather seals had failed and the inside was actually partially filled with rain water. Needless to say, the GFI failed.

Finally, just as a fun fact, I used my "Kill-A-Watt" power meter just now to measure the power consumption of my new 30" MES:

Plugged in, but controller off: 1.0 watt

Plugged in, controller on, but not heating: 1.5 watts

Heating (red light on): 777 watts

I'll try to remember, the next time I smoke, to leave the Kill-A-Watt attached the entire time. It has a neat feature that is useful for things which turn on and off while operating (like your fridge) where it will "accumulate" how much power is used during the entire measuring period. This should let me give you an idea of how much electricity is used for, say, a four-hour smoke. Of course ambient temperature will be important (it will require more power when the outside air temp is 30 degrees F then if it is 95 degrees), so I'll have to include that when I report my measurements.


----------



## dr k

jted said:


> Hi, GRCI's are not as mysterious as they sometimes are thought of they are very simple in theory. All they do is measure The power (amperage) that goes out on the Hot wire and then what comes back on the neutral or white wire. That is the slightly wider prong on the plug. If there is any difference (4 to 6 Milliampers) it trips the receptacle. It figures the lost amperage has gone to ground.
> 
> Good common sense should always prevail. Any damage to the cord should be repaired prior to use.
> 
> Saying this is like having a warning label on a gun barrel or on a pack of cigarettes.
> 
> Just to get a feel for what low levels it trips at you may feel 1ma (a tingle)  at 4-6 the GfCI trips and at 10 ma you can still let go but at 15 ma you hang on and it goes on from there. Most of us will survive a encounter of 30ma. From there up amperage causes damage .Remember that electricity is harder on children than adults.
> 
> I hope this helps   Jted
> 
> Edit of the post.
> 
> I just read WaOauu post. I guess we were writing at the same time. He is correct It can sense moisture but that is not it's main function.


I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.

-Kurt


----------



## johnmeyer

Dr K said:


> I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.
> 
> -Kurt


This section form a Wikipedia article has some great numbers:

Factors That Affect Lethality of Electric Shock

Wikipedia is obviously not an authoritative source, but this appears to me to be pretty accurate.

BTW, since my last post a few hours ago, I moved my MES inside (threat of rain), and looked carefully at where the cord enters the box. It sure doesn't look very water tight.

Also, as a follow up to my previous advice about checking whether your electric outlet enclosure is keeping out water, I decided to open up the new box that I put in two months ago when I replaced the GFI next to my smoker & BBQ. As soon as I loosened the screws, water came pouring out. After killing the circuit breaker, I opened it up and reaslized my mistake: I had replaced the box, but not the cover, and the cover's gasket had failed.

So, I now have a new cover on my box. To make it even more watertight, I put electrician's tape around where the faceplate meets the box, and I also Velcro'd a disposable plastic container over the entire box. You can see the result in this pic:













Electrical%20Outlet_zps53c5kayh.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 23, 2015


----------



## jted

Dr K said:


> I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.
> 
> -Kurt


Hi, I decided to check my recollection about the effects of electricity on the human body. Remembering we are all different I found this chart on the net. it is from Science based life.

https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/how-much-voltage-can-you-take-on-before-you-die/

Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] *Current**Reaction*1 milliampJust a faint tingle.5 milliampsSlight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries.6-25 milliamps (women)†
9-30 milliamps (men)Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.”50-150 milliampsExtremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flex or muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible.1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps)Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely.10,000 milliamps (10 amps)Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable.
All of this depends on the age of the person. The elderly and very young are at the most risk.


----------



## dr k

wa0auu said:


> I sure wish I could get my hands on a smoker that did this so I can do some testing on it.  We know it is rated at 15 amps, Ohms law tells us that R resistance is E over I and we know E is 120 volts
> 
> 120 volts divided by 15 amps is 8 ohms. The resistance of the heating element will be around 8 ohms depending on its use.   I would open the back of the unit ( >>>WITH ALL POWER REMOVED ! <<< )  and remove all the wires on the heating element and check its resistance and check for  > any < resistance from both ends of the heating element to ground, there should be none.  then put the wires back on the heating element one at a time and check for resistance to ground again, from both ends of the heating element.
> 
> are you using wood chips or pellets ?  When we first started we used the chips and found that they can touch the heating element and there was resistance to ground through the wood.  Your GFI outlet is built so it will trip ( to keep you safe ) if there is any voltage on the green ground wire.  When we changed to the pellets we no longer had a problem with it tripping
> 
> what happens if you remove the green wire on the power cord at the smoker ? ( be sure all power is REMOVED when you work with any of the wires <<< )  Does it still trip ?  Oh so many things I want to check ((>>>>> BE SURE ! to put the green wire BACK ! <<<<<  where it was)
> 
> I would try to plug it in to a non GFI outlet and check for VOLTAGE from the smoker to ground, it may be a very small amount but start with the meter on the 120 or more scale and work your way down to the lowest range and see if there is any voltage.
> 
> If anyone with this problem does this please email me direct at     [email protected]      and let me know what you found out    >>please !!!! <<


I'm trying to find what is 15 amps your talking about.  My Mes 40 inch Gen 1 came with a 1200 watt element =10 amps ,12 Ohms and the Mes 30 inch is 800 watts = 6.667 amps, 18 Ohms.  I maybe missing some dialogue.

-Kurt


----------



## johnmeyer

The 15 amp rating means that it can be plugged into a circuit protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker. It does not say anything about how much power it actually draws. As I already posted, the measured consumption on my 30" MES is 777 watts, which is in close agreement with the 800 watt rating.

As for the resistance of the heating element, that would have to be measured indirectly because the resistance while cold will not be the same as the resistance while hot. If you need to know this value, you can use a variation of Ohm's law that relates to power:

Resistance = Voltage * Voltage / Power.

Normal USA Voltage is 120 volts, and the power is approximately 800 watts, so this gives us:

Resistance = (120 * 120) / 800 = 18 ohms

I knew that EE degree would eventually be useful ...


----------



## larryhn

Based on your post it is highly likely that your heating element is shorted and using it without a GFCI is dangerous and could cause injury or death - you need to fix the smoker not bypass the safety equipment - disconnect the heating element and see if everything works correctly (which it probably will) - if it does then purchase a new heating element and install it

LN


----------



## johnmeyer

If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.

If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.


----------



## larryhn

The original post stated that they had tried other outlets


> I can program in the target temp and the time just fine but as soon as it tries to turn on the heating element it trips the GFCI. * I have tried a different outlet and that one triped also. *


So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions

trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component


> Based on your post it is highly likely that your heating element is shorted and *using it without a GFCI is dangerous and could cause injury or death* - you need to fix the smoker not bypass the safety equipment - disconnect the heating element and see if everything works correctly (which it probably will) - if it does then purchase a new heating element and install it


But the most important thing it to *stop using it* and *replace it or get it fixed* _*so no one gets electrocuted  *_

LN


----------



## novegan007

The moral of the story...........don't stick your tongue on it!


----------



## cayotica

trust me I am knot complaining about something breaking down, it just that I expect a $200 plus smoker to last more than 3months.


----------



## larryhn




----------



## hoity toit

They make an extended use weatherproof cover so you can leave the unit plugged in with the cover closed. Also use a GFCI that is weather resistant, as there are different grades of gfci's. If it still trips, I would just use a regular outlet and not be too concerned about it. More than likely it is what we call in my trade a nuisance trip. Don't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## hoity toit

LarryHN said:


> The original post stated that they had tried other outlets
> 
> So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions
> 
> trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component
> 
> But the most important thing it to *stop using it* and *replace it or get it fixed* _*so no one gets electrocuted  *_
> 
> LN





johnmeyer said:


> If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.
> 
> If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.


John is right,, is there anything else on that circuit? If so unplug everything and that circuit so just the smoker is the only item....


----------



## jted

LarryHN said:


> The original post stated that they had tried other outlets
> 
> So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions
> 
> trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component
> 
> But the most important thing it to *stop using it* and *replace it or get it fixed* _*so no one gets electrocuted  *_
> 
> LN





johnmeyer said:


> If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.
> 
> If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.


Larry from time to time my MES 30 does trip the GFCI After doing some testing with my multimeter I determined there was no ground to the Box. I plugged the smoker into a regular receptacle and 30 min later when the box had got to temp I put it back on the GFCI and it did not trip. .Before you arbitrarily condemn the smoker some testing should be done.

Read johnmeyers posts and it is obvious he has a handle on the testing.

It is not uncommon for heating elements to soak up some moisture out of the air. Mine has not tripped since the humidly has dropped to under 50. 

A test I will run on mine next summer when it Trip's the GFCI is to remove the chip tray exposing the element and PLUG in a hair dryer and heat the element. It would be interesting if that removes the suspected moisture.


----------



## johnmeyer

Quote:


jted said:


> Larry from time to time my MES 30 does trip the GFCI After doing some testing with my multimeter I determined there was no ground to the Box. I plugged the smoker into a regular receptacle and 30 min later when the box had got to temp I put it back on the GFCI and it did not trip. .Before you arbitrarily condemn the smoker some testing should be done.
> <snip>
> A test I will run on mine next summer when it Trip's the GFCI is to remove the chip tray exposing the element and PLUG in a hair dryer and heat the element. It would be interesting if that removes the suspected moisture.


One quick note on using a multimeter to measure resistance to ground as a way to determine if there really is a ground fault:

This actually may not find the problem. The multimeter uses direct current in order to make the resistance measurement. Also, it uses the very low voltage produced by a small battery cell, typically just a few volts. By contrast, the power line is 120 volts, and it is alternating current. AC current can be _induced _into another object, even without a direct electrical link. This is the principal behind how a transformer works, where two coils are placed close to each other, without any electrical contact, but through induction, a huge amount of current is transferred from one to the other.

So, you can have a ground fault that only happens with alternating current, and as a result, any leakage measurements must be made using alternating current.

In addition, higher voltage can break down insulators, even though that insulation works perfectly well at lower voltages. All sorts of electrical components are rated by the voltage they can withstand, from capacitors to those glass insulators you see on high voltage transmission lines. Go higher than that voltage, and the insulator breaks down, and current flows.

So, in a smoker, if there is some moisture or some insulation breakdown, the current those things allow might not show up until a large enough voltage is applied.

If you plug your smoker into more than one GFI, and it trips each one of them, then I would take that as a definitive sign that you really do have a ground fault in your smoker. You MUST then repair or replace your smoker.

The hairdryer on the heating element (and on the junction box where the cord comes in) is not a bad idea. You can't overheat the heating element of course, but care should be exercised when heating anything else with a hairdryer. Plastic melts pretty easily.


----------



## smokephan

Or you could forget all these remedies and do what i did. Build a firebox and run both heat and smoke through the wood chip port!


----------



## jawsbbq

I have had the same problem with my electric smoker.  the smoker turns on and when the heater comes on for about 10 seconds, pow the gfci blows.  I have a sump pump that did the same thing and the solution was to use a heat gun to drive the moisture out of the cheap plastic electrical plug.  So I gave it a try today on my smoker and it seems to be working OK now.  I guess moisture gets into the cheap molded plug.  May not be the solution for you but it has worked on two items for me.

UPDATE 5-2016

Well!  the heating the plug trick only worked for about 2-3 hours and then it popped the GFI again??????


----------



## smokeymose

Having just come across this thread, and not having read all 96 posts, I'll toss my 2 cents in. I had an MES 30 myself last year and had been just smoking along all spring when the 15A GFI just quit. It didn't trip and never had. I know a bit about electricity but absolutely nothing about GFI's so I called an electrician. He wound up replacing not only the GFI but 3 outlets on the circuit. He said that even though the MES operated at less than 15A, it ran hot enough that over time the circuit slowly cooked. The outlets he replaced were actually brown and a couple of the wires had melted insulation. Granted, now, the house is almost 30 years old and so is the wiring, so the smoker may not have been the culprit, just the camel's last straw.
GFIs are a whole different animal. Bite the bullet and call a professional to check it out. Your house is a big investment, in addition to your personal safety...
For what it's worth, I gave up the MES and went with propane, and though not as convenient and not being able to get the really low temps, I'm good.
Dan
(Let the attacks from the MES folks begin [emoji]128527[/emoji])


----------



## johnmeyer

SmokeyMose said:


> <snip> For what it's worth, I gave up the MES and went with propane, and though not as convenient and not being able to get the really low temps, I'm good.


Did you give up on the MES because of the electrical issues you described, or for some other reason? I am asking because I have a thread about why I am thinking of selling my MES, and I just wanted to find out if you had any issues with the quality of the smoking you were able to do.


----------



## smokeymose

johnmeyer said:


> Did you give up on the MES because of the electrical issues you described, or for some other reason? I am asking because I have a thread about why I am thinking of selling my MES, and I just wanted to find out if you had any issues with the quality of the smoking you were able to do.


----------



## smokeymose

No problems at all with quality of cooking, John. Other than the smoke issue (I was getting ready to get an AMAZEN tray). I just wasn't comfortable with the whole electrical issue with the house. I have 2 co-workers who smoke electric, but they both have dedicated 20A lines to use. I just don't have that option...


----------



## johnmeyer

SmokeyMose said:


> No problems at all with quality of cooking, John. Other than the smoke issue (I was getting ready to get an AMAZEN tray). I just wasn't comfortable with the whole electrical issue with the house. I have 2 co-workers who smoke electric, but they both have dedicated 20A lines to use. I just don't have that option...


You really shouldn't have a problem with overloading a 15-amp circuit breaker. I did extensive power tests on my MES 30, and posted the results here:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/238891/mes-30-energy-measurements-using-kill-a-watt-power-meter

I know that there are some different versions of the MES 30", but on mine, it consumes exactly 800 watts when the heating element is on. That is under seven amps, or less than half the current trip point of your 15-amp breaker.


----------



## old sarge

johnmeyer - Great write-up and very clear as well.  I think everyone should have a volt/ohm meter in their basic tool line-up. Handy all around the house. And inexpensive  as well. Quite often though, the instructions accompanying such a tool are either too skimpy or too technical.  Thanks for your clear help.


----------



## four20

Ok

Unplug it. Disconnect both wires to the element. Connect your mes to a non ground fault circuit interrupter. Adjust temp- up so relays engage. If it trips breaker pcb for temp controller is faulty. otherwise OHM element to ground. The controller relays fail more than any part because they are made in ch*na and assembled in Me*ic0


----------



## old sarge

Not everything made in China or Mexico falls apart or fails.


----------



## smokeymose

johnmeyer said:


> Did you give up on the MES because of the electrical issues you described, or for some other reason? I am asking because I have a thread about why I am thinking of selling my MES, and I just wanted to find out if you had any issues with the quality of the smoking you were able to do.


No problem at all with the quality of cooking, John! Other than the smoke issue involved with electric (I was about to order an AMAZN tray), I loved it. I just wasn't comfortable with the whole electrical thing with the house. I have 2 co-workers who smoke electric, but they have dedicated 20A cicuits. I don't have that option.
Dan





johnmeyer said:


> You really shouldn't have a problem with overloading a 15-amp circuit breaker. I did extensive power tests on my MES 30, and posted the results here:
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/238891/mes-30-energy-measurements-using-kill-a-watt-power-meter
> 
> I know that there are some different versions of the MES 30", but on mine, it consumes exactly 800 watts when the heating element is on. That is under seven amps, or less than half the current trip point of your 15-amp breaker.


Between you, me and the fencepost, John; I think you're right. Sparky scared the bejesus out of the Mrs, though, so to keep peace in the family I let it go. Oh well. I'd rather have the convenience of the MES, but really, other than jumping through a few hoops to do sausage warm smokes, I like the gasser just fine.
Hope you get it sorted out.
Smoke On!
Dan


----------



## novegan007

I have both MES and a propane Smoke Hollow,  both have there purposes and i use both alot but if i had to choose just one i would go propane. P. S. I live were electricity is only 2.5 cents a kilowatt......cheap, but i just like the heat source of a propane smoker


----------



## four20

Made in China Or Mexico does fail more often. Find me a part that's not made in either. You know what? Show me a part made in the U.S.A or E.U.

Duty cycle is the failure in their products. Lower grade alloys.


----------



## hef17

I had the same problem. I used with no problem then it started popping the gfci . Had to use a cord fot several smokes. I found the clip tray was rubbing the element and just needed a good cleaning,works fine now


----------



## learpilit

Mine sat out in some rain....and then tripped the GCFI immediately upon plugging it in. I read this forum and tried plugging it in a non-GFCI outlet. I ran it at 220 deg for an hour and everything is ok now. It will run on a GFCI outlet again.


----------



## ts12

After I started using my pellet grill/smoker regularly, I let my MES sit in the basement for a couple years....unused [emoji]128561[/emoji]....

I had the same problem tripping gfci outlet when I tried to fire it back up. My suspicion was moisture/humidity build up in the heating element.  I suspected this because when I bought my big chief elec smoker many years ago, it did the same thing new, right out of the box. I called support and they said to pull the heating element out and put it in the oven @ 225 for 30 min or so.  They said it had moisture in it and that this was fairly common. I thought it was BS, but the oven worked. So, when the MES did the same, I thought moisture was in the burner. My solution was to use a propane torch and gently heat the element to hopefully dry it out.  It only took a few minutes of running the torch all along the element. I didn't hold it in any one spot for very long. I just wanted to warm it and get rid of the moisture. Long story short...it worked.


----------



## hyattbd

If in twenty minutes it produces no heat I would look again at the coil terminals.

sounds like a leak of voltage from the heating coils.


----------



## jted

I live in Virginia. It is humid. My MES is stored outside under a good cover. After a rainy or humid period mine trips the GFCI. I use a hair dryer to heat it up and it works to dry out the element. Lately I have been putting a Ziploc bag around the chip loader and inserting it back in. It works to keep the moisture out. at least so far any ways. the box it self is nearly air tight ,the only air is through the chip loader or exhaust vent.    Jted


----------



## kaybee

I took mine apart for the most part and my wire ends are burnt. The guy at Home Depot told me that was the heat shrink tubing but I know the difference between heat shrink and burnt. He also tried to sell me the plugs that were not high temp. Ace Hardware had the high temp ends so I bought a couple.

My element connections are corroded, one much worse than the other. If I disconnect the element, I don't have the GFCI issue. It comes on, and seems ok. Can I test the element? I am not sure what the resistance should be across it. I'd like to test it before I shell out $40 on one.


----------



## hyattbd

I would soak the coils in baking soda and vinager to chean them up before i went any further, then comare the readings and that may tell you where to look.


----------



## bgmddy

My MES didn't trip the GFI when it was stock, but trips it every time since I did the "upgrade".

The stock chip tray is half-width and sits about 1/4" above the heating element, It also turned the chips to charcoal, not ash.

The upgrade (free for a call to MasterCraft Customer Service) is a full-width chip tray that sits ON the heating element.  It makes a LOT more smoke and burns the chips to ash.  I usually put 3-4 charcoal briquettes in the tray before adding wood chips and it burns them too.

My guess it the GFI sees the tray sitting on the element as a short circuit.  I just run an extension cord from a non-GFI outlet in the house to the smoker in the driveway...

Would be very interested to see if anyone's "modded" MES will run on a GFI.


----------



## agginativetexan

Extension cord is a BAD idea. Try lifting the pan just off the coil with a few washers or wads of foil.  GFIs do not "see", they actually have to get a trickle of current difference between incoming and out going. If the pan on the coil causes enough deflection to short the coil a little you have a problem brewing that should be corrected now.


----------



## fwerring

Pretty much did the same thing with mine....30" digital MES

After checking things out with a meter looking for obvious grounds, plugged it into a non gfi outlet at my shop and let it run a few hours at 275.

No more problems with the gfi outlet up at the house.

Fred


----------



## miatawnt2b

IMO there is a design flaw with the stock MES as it relates to the chip holder and the element. Since the Chip holder rests quite firmly on the element, there is potential at those contact points for damage to the heating element. As the element heats and cools it will rub against the chip holder and over time my thought it it creates micro cracks in the element which cause the short to ground and premature failure to the element. Since I have a cold smoke attachment on mine I have removed this chip holder altogether.


----------



## chitown smoker

fwerring said:


> Pretty much did the same thing with mine....30" digital MES
> 
> After checking things out with a meter looking for obvious grounds, plugged it into a non gfi outlet at my shop and let it run a few hours at 275.
> 
> No more problems with the gfi outlet up at the house.
> 
> Fred


So you're saying after heating it awhile, then you plugged it back into the GFCI and it did not short anymore.  Hmmmm

Mine is having this issue this morning and I need to get a turkey into it ASAP.  :(


----------



## fwerring

Chitown Smoker said:


> So you're saying after heating it awhile, then you plugged it back into the GFCI and it did not short anymore.  Hmmmm
> 
> Mine is having this issue this morning and I need to get a turkey into it ASAP.  :(


Was thinking maybe there was some residue that got burnt off with a few hours at 275 deg, getting rid of the short/ground condition.

All I know is it worked for me this time

And this was after I checked things out with a meter and couldn't find anything wrong

Good luck

Fred


----------



## chitown smoker

fwerring said:


> Was thinking maybe there was some residue that got burnt off with a few hours at 275 deg, getting rid of the short/ground condition.
> 
> All I know is it worked for me this time
> 
> And this was after I checked things out with a meter and couldn't find anything wrong
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Fred


Thanks!  I'll see what happens when I'm done smoking today.  So far it's working great on a regular outlet but I have to plug it into my inside outlet so the door is slightly open.


----------



## chitown smoker

Contacted MB and they said it's probably the element.  I bought a new one from them for $14.  Will install soon and report back.


----------



## fwerring

Chitown Smoker said:


> Thanks!  I'll see what happens when I'm done smoking today.  So far it's working great on a regular outlet but I have to plug it into my inside outlet so the door is slightly open.


Shoot, for $14 I might go ahead and replace mine.

Fred


----------



## chitown smoker

So I made the mistake of unscrewing the ground wire before pulling it out.  There are a series of nuts on the end of the screw that are gone I think they fell into the wall of the smoker.  I'm afraid these will cause ground faults or burning in the future.  So I think I'm done with this one.  Time to get a new one.


----------



## chitown smoker

my box is out of luck.  But they are checking to see what deals they can offer on new ones.


----------



## chitown smoker

she said when it's just popping the outlet immediately before it's even turned on, it's the case, not the heating element.  so it couldn't have been fixed by that anyway.  Luckily that was only $14.

She was able to get me a 20070115 for retail cost, plus shipping.  YMMV.


----------



## w2hr

Leave it to a ham to make an assessment He has a bit of electronic background too.

Harold from Oregon  W2HR


----------



## lowcountrygamecock

Long story short I have two gen 2 40" masterbuilts. I gave one to my brother and he gave it back recently because they weren't using it enough, only two or three times in a year or two. It worked last time he used it but when I plugged it in it heated until about 175 and then started tripping the gfi. After that every time I plugged it in it would immediately trip the gfi. I took it to a non-gfi circuit yesterday and it turned on and heated up to 275 and held there. I didn't get a chance to try it on the gfi circuit again yet but just because it trips instantaneously doesn't mean it won't come up to temp on a non-gfi circuit.


----------



## chitown smoker

yeah it'll work on a non-GFCI.  But it has a ground fault somewhere, which is dangerous.


----------



## unlgrad2002

Hey everyone. Lots of good information here. I had the same problem with outlets tripping so plugged into a normal (living room) outlet. It appears to be heating up fine and not throwing any breakers. My question, and apologies if it's already been answered, if it's the outlet do I replace the outside outlet on the deck or the inside outlet with the switch which for some reason is in the basement? 

Or did I entirely misunderstand this thread and it's the MES?

Thanks as always for all the great advice!


----------



## johnmeyer

The three prongs on a North American power plug are hot, neutral and ground. The ground is the round center plug and is tied, back at your circuit breaker box, to the same incoming wire as the neutral wire.

The neutral wire carries current back from the load (in this case, your MES smoker) and so, when things are working right, it carries the exact same current as the hot wire. The ground wire should carry no current and is there to provide an extra measure of safety, but only for those appliances that use it (many do not). When it was first added to electrical installations, back in the 1960s, appliance makers would tie it to the metal chassis or cage containing the appliance, and if the insulation inside that cage ever broke down and caused a short, the current would flow back through the ground wire, rather than through you (if you happened to be touching the appliance).

I have never been clear as to whether this actually improved safety much because it takes so little current to kill you. You will notice that many devices still use just two-pronged plugs.

The GFI was introduced a decade later in order to provide a LOT more safety, especially in damp locations, such as outdoors, your kitchen, and your bathroom. In those cases, you can be standing on a damp floor in your bare feet, and any electricity that manages to get to the surface of an appliance will flow through your body down to your feet because the ground has the same electrical potential as the neutral and ground wires on your plug, and the electricity is just as happy taking that path as it is going back through the wires.

The GFI measures the current coming in from the hot wire and the current flowing back out through the neutral wire. In normal operation, they should be the same. If the return current is less, that is happening because some of the current has found another path to ground.

In the case of the MES, it is my belief, from reading a lot of posts about this problem, that the GFI gets tripped either from moisture that has gotten into one of the two electrical boxes (most likely the one on the bottom), or there is some insulation that has broken down, probably around the heating element. Because the whole box is sheet metal (covered with vinyl on the outside), there are lots of places that might conduct electricity, if there is a problem.

Therefore, you might very well have an electrical hazard.

If you know how to use a multi-meter, there are tests you can take to determine if you have a problem. However, if you don't already know how to do this, I don't think I should describe it, because there are some hazards involved.

GFI plugs DO go bad: I've had to replace almost half a dozen over the past thirty years. When they go bad, they will trip even though there is not a problem.

To determine if you have a bad GFI, all you have to do is find another GFI-equipped plug and plug your MES into that. Since you won't be running it for more than five seconds, you can even use a GFI inside your house. If it trips several of them, then you do indeed have a ground fault in your MES, and you need to fix the problem. I would perform the test on as many GFI outlets as you can find, at least 3-4. If it trips them all, then you know, with certainty, that your MES is defective. Because it is a safety hazard, Masterbuilt should replace the unit, because otherwise they will have liability. I would call them, tell them how you have tested it, and make sure to mention the word "liability."

If you want to first try fixing it yourself, my main suspicion is moisture. I suspect that moisture runs down the cord and into the hole in the back, and you should start with that assumption and see if you can tip the MES so that water can drain out. You can take further steps to try to dry out any box that you think might have received water from that power cord opening.


----------



## unlgrad2002

Thanks John. I tried another GFI inside the kitchen and it tripped too. That one never trips when we have the coffee maker, tea maker, mixer, etc. all potentially plugged in and drawing power. The living room which is not GFI didn't trip and the MES ran up to 250° no problem, which confused me if it's the MES. We did have some bad storms a few weeks ago and I have not used it since then so moisture might be an issue. I'll tip it and see if anything comes out.

I also plugged our electric griddle into the outside GFI. Turned up to 400° and it stayed on.


----------



## mikeg1218

Had the same problem crop up after a year and some. Read the posts played around with it, As with you all looked good. No Joy. Called MB, the young lady said no problem, sent me a new heat coil set up. Installed it and have been smoking for three or four months now with no problems. Twenty bucks or so if I remember correctly.

MikeG


----------



## unlgrad2002

Interesting Mike. Did the old coil have any corrosion on it? I pulled the small plate off the back and noticed one side has what looked like rust or dirt that had run down the back. The MES is sitting on the stand and it's too hot outside to take it apart and mess around anymore today. 

John, I have a multimeter and am comfortable using it so feel free to chime in with things to test. 
http://s901.photobucket.com/user/un...4-42ED-A4E0-B8E071BFEEEA_zpszmlv43df.jpg.html


----------



## ochawkeye

This thread has been incredibly informative.

I settled in for a smoke this morning and found immediately upon plugging into the wall that the GFCI would trip.  After about 30 minutes of trying to get the power back on in the garage (took me far too long to figure out there were two GFCIs on the same breaker and the second one was hidden behind the refrigerator).  I then spent the next hour hauling the MES around to various other outlets and watch the GFCIs pop on those as well.  

I had just used it last weekend and did get a bit of rain during that day.  The MES did not quit running on me that day and continued until I manually shut it off which was about four hours after it had stopped raining.

Opened up the plate in the back to examine the element connections and none of them appeared to have any corrosion (though I have to admit that there was a lot of gasket tucked in there and between that and the heat shrink on the wires I probably didn't give it as thorough of an inspection as was required).  Still no luck.

I had pretty much given up when it occurred to me that the recommendations were actually to try on a circuit that had no GFCI downstream (as an aside, I read online that these outlets that have downstream GFCI are supposed to be labelled, mine are not).  So I ran an extension cord into the house and plugged into my living room.  Sure enough the unit powered on and I was able to heat it up.  Based on another post in the thread, I cranked it up to 275 to see if I could "cook out" the moisture.  After about 90 minutes I unplugged from the extension cord and into the GFCI that had previously been popping.  Unit powered on and all appears to be well.

I'm still confused about a few things that's I'll have to do further testing on:

1.  Is it the heating element that was shorting if my unit would trip immediately upon plugging in?

2.  Is the unit working now because it is already hot and if I attempt to plug it in when it's cold will the short have returned?

3.  How much of a hazard did I create in those 90 minutes where I was running unprotected?  Probably pretty irresponsible of me to get that going and then leave it unsupervised.  I never left the house but I wasn't keeping an eye on it the whole time.


----------



## johnmeyer

That gunk in your pic is exactly the kind of thing that could provide a little leakage to ground. The GFI is very sensitive and it only takes a small amount of current to trip it. Clean off that gunk, and anything else you see that looks like that.


----------



## renron

Time to replace the element, too much resistance will cause the GFCI to trip.

The circuits you are using, especially the kitchen, may have different current ratings. ie; 15A or 20A (kitchen). 14ga. or 12ga wire respectively. Unless someone who doesn't know what they are doing has replaced the receptacle, an easy way to identify if it's a 15A or 20A circuit is the 20A receptacle has an extra line on the neutral blade. Looks like a "T" sideways. The neutral line is always the wide blade. Some devices only use a polarized plug because they are "Double insulated" meaning that the exterior case is insulated from any electrically charged portion of the device.

Quite often the exterior 15A receptacles are at the end of the circuit, causing a voltage drop simply due to the length of copper from the breaker panel to the receptacle. If a GFCI receptacle is tripping due to being at the end of a long circuit run, one trick that sometimes works is to replace the GFCI receptacle with a standard 2 w/ground receptacle and replace the breaker in the panel with a GFCI breaker. Unless you are confident in your electrical skills, don't remove the breaker panel inspection cover.

Ron


----------



## marctrees

I don't have time tonight to read this thread - I am only commenting on what grabbed my eye - Post # 138.

Renron -    I'm sorry, but 90% of your info in post #138 is false.

"too much resistance will cause the GFCI to trip".  False- current imbalance is what trips a GFI.

"an easy way to identify if it's a 15A or 20A circuit is the 20A receptacle has an extra line on the neutral blade. Looks like a "T" sideways". - Part true - Yes, a 20 a rated recept has the t slot, BUT not only is it not mandated by code on a 20a ckt,(unless it is a SINGLE recept on the ckt) but very few res kitchens in US have 20a recepts installed, even though they are 20a ckts.

I wired new and remodel homes for 13 yrs as a licensed contractor, VERY rarely did we put them in kitchens, only when architect spec'd,  never did an Inspector say anything.

But they are a good idea , typically made more solid, longer lasting than the relatively inexpensive basic 15a ones.

"Quite often the exterior 15A receptacles are at the end of the circuit, causing a voltage drop simply due to the length of copper from the breaker panel to the receptacle. If a GFCI receptacle is tripping due to being at the end of a long circuit run, one trick that sometimes works is to replace the GFCI receptacle with a standard 2 w/ground receptacle and replace the breaker in the panel with a GFCI breaker."   -

The ONLY true part here is that there is lower voltage the farther down the ckt....although in a normal home totally negligible...BUT-  the rest is false.

Sorry, I'm not a jerk, but this is misleading incorrect info.

      Marc


----------



## hoity toit

Marctrees said:


> I don't have time tonight to read this thread - I am only commenting on what grabbed my eye - Post # 138.
> 
> Renron -    I'm sorry, but 90% of your info in post #138 is false.
> 
> "too much resistance will cause the GFCI to trip".  False- current imbalance is what trips a GFI.
> 
> "an easy way to identify if it's a 15A or 20A circuit is the 20A receptacle has an extra line on the neutral blade. Looks like a "T" sideways". - Part true - Yes, a 20 a rated recept has the t slot, BUT not only is it not mandated by code on a 20a ckt,(unless it is a SINGLE recept on the ckt) but very few res kitchens in US have 20a recepts installed, even though they are 20a ckts.
> 
> I wired new and remodel homes for 13 yrs as a licensed contractor, VERY rarely did we put them in kitchens, only when architect spec'd,  never did an Inspector say anything.
> 
> But they are a good idea , typically made more solid, longer lasting than the relatively inexpensive basic 15a ones.
> 
> "Quite often the exterior 15A receptacles are at the end of the circuit, causing a voltage drop simply due to the length of copper from the breaker panel to the receptacle. If a GFCI receptacle is tripping due to being at the end of a long circuit run, one trick that sometimes works is to replace the GFCI receptacle with a standard 2 w/ground receptacle and replace the breaker in the panel with a GFCI breaker."   -
> 
> The ONLY true part here is that there is lower voltage the farther down the ckt....although in a normal home totally negligible...BUT-  the rest is false.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not a jerk, but this is misleading incorrect info.
> 
> Marc


Marc is 100% correct. I am a Licensed State Electrical Contractor and Master Electrician for 40 yrs. The gfci outlet I use on my smoker also sometimes trips when it has been damp outside. I can attribute that to the controller or wiring on the MES perhaps being a little damp causing the GFCI to do exactly what it was designed to do. It will stay on about 3-4 min enough to get a little warm and then it will trip, I can then rest it and it will usually stay on from then on out. My thought is if I kept the unit inside when not in use this would solve the problem. In the summertime as long as it is warm and hot no problem.  Just my 2 cents on this from my experience.

HT


----------



## johnmeyer

Mactress is correct on all his points. I was going to post, but didn't want to take the time. The GFI will work regardless of distance from the breaker box. You'll get a bigger voltage drop to the GFI, but that lower voltage will not matter _at all_ because the GFI is only measuring the differential between current going in and coming back out of the load, and doesn't care about voltage. To reiterate: it is a device which measures current, not voltage, and therefore is indifferent to the incoming voltage. It has to work this way because, if you've ever put a voltmeter on the mains, you'll see the voltage from your utility company wander all over the place, based on your neighbors' usage at that moment. I've seen voltage at my house go as low as 115 and as high as 123 volts in the matter of a few seconds (I have a UPS at my main computer that has a voltage readout) and, during brownouts, have seen voltages as low as 90 volts. The GFI has to work through all of this.

And, there is zero difference between a 15A and a 20A circuit until, of course, the current limit is reached, and one will trip at a lower current than the other. If the 20A circuit is wired with larger wire, there will be a slightly smaller voltage drop at the load (your smoker) when a lot of current is being drawn, but that is the only difference and, as I just pointed out above, the voltage at the load doesn't affect the GFI operation, so wire gauge doesn't matter at all.

Since the person who recently posted is having problems with the MES tripping multiple GFI receptacles, the MES obviously does have a ground fault. I suspect that moisture has penetrated one of the boxes, or else there is some gunk or fat that has oozed into something and that gunk is causing a fault.

While it is probably not a lethal situation, I most definitely would not recommend leaving it as is, and the smoker should probably be fixed or replaced.


----------



## ochawkeye

johnmeyer said:


> While it is probably not a lethal situation, I most definitely would not recommend leaving it as is, and the smoker should probably be fixed or replaced.


That's about all I needed to hear.  Probably playing with fire doing this one last smoke on it, but I'm about 5 hours in and am pretty committed at this point.  Maybe I'll suit up in full rubber gear the rest of the day :)

Tractor Supply has $100 off today with free shipping so probably the best possible time for me to order a new one.  Hopefully I get as much out of this new one as I did the last one.


----------



## renron

Just trying to help, I guess what I was taught was wrong. Sorry. I will defer to both of you.  No one is being a jerk, I can admit to being wrong and I can learn too. :)

The Contractor I worked with always put 20A receptacles on 20A circuits in the kitchen. No spec. or tract homes only Very high end homes. Perhaps that's why.

Must be a matter of cost to use the cheaper 15A receptacles. Although code does allows 15A receptacles (duplex) on a 20A circuit. Just not a single 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit.

I searched on Mike Holts website which has a lot of valuable information.

So your saying a GFCI breaker WON"T trip due to over current protection?  Only because of an unbalanced load? (my point from above , over current protection, not from a ground fault)

If this is the case then a GFCI breaker in the panel shouldn't trip from over current? I'm obviously missing something here. Please explain.

I was also under the (mistaken) impression that a GFCI breaker had a longer MTBW than a GFCI receptacle. Or is it ~ 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other?  I watched an EC replace a GFCI receptacle which tripped often, with a GFCI breaker in the panel. Problem solved. Perhaps it was just a bad GFCI receptacle, this was an exterior outlet in snow country. Moisture?

Please, I'm just trying to understand and want to be correct. Not arguing. I love this website and don't want to be outcast.

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## marctrees

"If this is the case then a GFCI breaker in the panel shouldn't trip from over current? I'm obviously missing something here. Please explain."

GFI BREAKERS trip for 2 reasons - Overcurrent just like a regular breaker,   or ground fault.

Gfi recepts, ONLY from ground fault.

"I watched an EC replace a GFCI receptacle which tripped often, with a GFCI breaker in the panel. Problem solved. Perhaps it was just a bad GFCI receptacle, this was an exterior outlet in snow country. Moisture?

Bingo,probably moisture at outside location, and maybe bad from previous exposures.

Sorry I was so harsh.      Marc


----------



## johnmeyer

I certainly wasn't trying to be harsh. I think Mactrees' excellent second post explains some of the discrepancies between what each of us was saying. I actually did not know that there were GFI _breakers_. I don't know if I have any of those.

Now, if you really want to get into, I'll tell y'all sometime about how an electrician wired together all the neutrals in the junction box in my kitchen, not realizing that one of them was from a different phase (your house in the USA has two phases). After we moved back in (it was a remodel) my old CRT monitor would start waving back and forth every time the kitchen lights were turned on. I quickly lost my fax machine and answering machine. I can't remember what caused me to open that box, but I did, found that the neutral for my office and the neutral from my kitchen lights were wired together, even though they were from circuits on opposite phases. I separated the neutrals into two groups, one for each phase, and solved the problem 100%.

I explained all of this to the electrician, but he did not seem to understand the concept that the voltage in one phase is going up when the voltage in the other is going down, and that the voltage drop from the current in the wires from the big load (my 900 watt kitchen lights) will induce a voltage back into the other circuit. Even worse is what happens from the inrush when the lights are turned on (they are all LED now). I'm sure that's what fried the power supplies in my fax and answering machine (both of which I was able to fix).

Ever since this happened 23 years ago, when I hear about people who have problems with "voltage spikes," I wonder how often the problem originates from the power company, and how many of these people have an electrician who is as clueless as mine was.


----------



## marctrees

GFCI receptacles have always been cheaper than breakers, so much more often used.

And the fact that most are "feed through", meaning protecting outlets "down the line" , the "Load side",   supported their use,.

A big downside though was when they started using them years ago, when they were more expensive than now,  homes would often have one in a bathroom ALSO controlling an outdoor one, and folks would call electricians when their outdoor outlet was dead, cause they didn't know check the bath recept.

Many of us years ago been there, done that till that knowledge became more common.

Using the GFI breaker though is better in some cases, specially like if the outdoor device is in a really crappy potentially moisture place, like touched on above.  Marc


----------



## renron

MarcTrees,

Thank you for "Gfi recepts, ONLY from ground fault.".  I did not know that. I knew that GFCI breakers performed 2 functions and thought the receptacles did too.

I learned something today, it's a good day..

Ron


----------



## marctrees

Ya, only the Breakers do two functions.

I would estimate, SWAG, after working on panels in homes for years, only maybe 20% of homes have GFI BREAKERS in the panels.

Course, by now, 99% have GFI receptacles somewhere anyway, excepting the oldest or poorest homes than have not had upgrades ever yet.      Marc


----------



## marctrees

Renron - No Outcast status -  Welcome to the Forum.         Marc


----------



## renron

Arghhhhhhhhhhhh   That's frightening!

Are you trying to scare me away? ;)

Ron

MES 30 w/mailbox & Snorkel mod. Happy smoker, not a toker


----------



## gasou93

Yeah, I had been using my 30-inch MES for a couple of years until my wife surprised me with a Kamado Joe for our anniversary in March.  I went to use my MES to do some pig candy a few weeks ago.  Turned it on, got it up to temp.... went to open the latch to put my bacon in and "ZING"..... a mild shock when I touched the metal latch.  I then put on the insulated gloves I have and was able to get the shelves out and get the meat in.  Once that cook finished, I turned it off and haven't used it since.  

I'm guessing perhaps the ground wire in the back has come loose or burned out or something.  Haven't taken the time to check it out yet.  I'd like to keep using it for small cooks like that, but we'll see.


----------



## marctrees

gasou -

I am assuming you were not plugged into a GFI ckt.

Tell me about that yes or no please., AND if you know the outlet is in fact actually grounded.

If you were not....

Probably, not for sure, but probably your shock was "mild" only because you were not well grounded.

You probably had rubber sole shoes on, not bare feet on wet grass.

Otherwise coulda been very different outcome.

Chances of the ground wire being burned off is very very small.

It is easy to check for ground continuity with a multimeter.

You will almost for sure find it is grounded, basically 0 ohms reading.

You NEED to do the above.....  but that PROBABLY is not your problem.

Your problem is probably a ground fault., and would have tripped a GFI ckt when you touched it.

LISTEN - Two things -   Do NOT - Do NOT run your unit without GFI protection.

So report back on the above and Lets go from there...

Do NOT plug it in till it gets resolved.         Marc


----------



## johnmeyer

Unfortunately, in my recent experience, the multimeter is useless for many ground fault problems. Why? There are two reasons.

1. Many ground faults only show up when high voltage is applied. I posted about rebuilding a Presto "Fry Daddy" fryer's plug using high temperature liquid weld.

High Temp Liquid Weld

As I was waiting for it to finish curing, I read the instructions more carefully to find out when the cure would be finished and noticed for the first time that the stuff contains metal particles. I pulled out the multi-meter and measured the resistance between the two plugs, and it was several hundred k-ohms. A quick calculation showed that it would only create a few milliwatts of heat and therefore would be no problem. So, I plugged it in and was immediately treated to a spectacular 4th of July sparkler shower of sparks. What I realized is that when powered with 3 volts DC the material did not electrically break down, but with 120 volts AC (which is close to 180 volts peak), the material broke down and arced.

Just to be clear, my problem was between the hot and neutral, not hot and ground (i.e., a "ground fault"), but the electrical issue of insulator breakdown due to voltage is the same.

2. AC voltage can induce a voltage across a barrier. While this "transformer effect" should not provide any potential with respect to ground, in my experience it sometimes does.

I've had a lot of near-lethal shocks over the years, and I'm lucky to have survived. I don't recommend playing around with anything that has shocked you.


----------



## marctrees

Agreed .

I wanted gasou to check ground continuity like from prong on plug to smoker body w VOM.

That's all.

Finding Ground fault is a whole nother thing.

Not to confuse things more...... but folks need to realize a GFI outlet does NOT need to be connected to ground to function, it will do it's job the same without a ground connection to the device.

It simply measures the current going let's say...  "In, and Out", and trips if there is a difference.

If it becomes different by even a tiny amount (like a tingle going through a person) it opens the circuit.

It is simply an electronic "Balance Beam" type of scale.

BOTH sides need to have EQUAL current flow, or it trips off.

The reason you need to end up having the smoker grounded is- IF the case should become energized... if it's grounded... the breaker (NOT GFI) should trip.

Otherwise, the whole smoker body sitting on your deck is one big exposed "live wire".

Totally able to kill someone under the right conditions.

Bottom line is like John said - If you don't thoroughly understand how this all works, DON'T mess with it on your own.      Marc


----------



## wfilada01

Bad element. I've gone through 3 of them.


----------



## dwaytkus

I have a MES 30" Analog and had the same issue a couple years ago.  It ended up being a bad element.


----------



## rigo8582

For what its worth I had a 40" that started tripping the GFCI. I changed the heating element a few weeks ago and its been running like new not tripping the GFCI. I've used it 3 times or since changing the heating element and its been running great.


----------



## gasou93

Marctrees,

My apologies in the delay in replying.  THe last month or so has been crazy with work and I haven't had much spare time to tinker with the MES.

Anyway, so I need to buy a multimeter as I don't have one.  Just for grins, I plugged in the MES directly into the outlet on my back porch, which does NOT have the GFCI "reset" button on it.  Just a normal looking outlet.  I heard the beep, as if it was on, and walked inside for just a second.  Came back out and it was off.  Walked in the garage to check the breakers, nothing had tripped.  HOWEVER.... there is a GFCI outlet in the garage right outside the door.  That GFCI outlet had tripped and had to be reset (my garage stand up freezer is plugged into it!!!).  Since then, the MES does nothing.  

I'm not terribly mechanically/electrically inclined, so I may have to get some help on this one.  WHen you say test with a multimeter, once I purchase one, what exactly do I test?  Something on the MES itself or the outlet?  

Based on other comments, looks like perhaps my element has gone bad.  Hopefully that's all it is.  Although this isn't my primary smoker any longer, it's still serviceable for certain things.


----------



## larryhn

The purpose of a GFI is to keep you and your friends and family form being electrocuted -  not everyone here agrees but my suggestion is to never use any device which is tripping a GFI until it is repaired - doing so puts people's lives in danger

As to testing you want to test the resistance between the element and common and ground - it should be an open circuit - infinite resistance - sine it is tripping yoru GFI it probably has leakage or a short that is making the resistance low - often replacing the element is the solution to that

You should be able to find a friend with a multimeter to test it for you

LN


----------



## gasou93

Thanks Larry.  I certainly won't be using it until it's repaired since it won't even turn on at this point.  I'll ask a couple of friends if they have a MM and go from there.


----------



## smokinmate

Well fellow smoker if I had to guess I would point at the heating element. If you can get to the leads and know how to use an Ohm meter, I suggest you try to take a reading. I am not sure what the element should read but MES should be able to supply you with that info. May not be the answer but it is a good place to start.


----------



## larryhn

it probably is not a number - from the element to ground or common it should be basically an open circuit - many mega ohms - if it is then that does not prove is it good but is a good sign - as other have noted here the leakage problem can only occur at high voltage - but is it is a short or low (ohms or kilo ohms then it is certainly bad

another way to test would be to remove the element and see if the GFI trips - if it does then the issue is in the unit not in the element - if it does not  trip then it is likely to be the element

LN


----------



## jsk53

​I had the same issue a while back. Turned out the GFI outlet in the garage that controlled the outside outlets went bad. I replaced the GFI outlet and haven't had an issue since.

Good luck.


----------



## marctrees

I think Larry in Post #62 meant to remove the element from the circuit, not physically remove it.

Doing as he suggests would although not for sure, would probably delineate the problem.   Marc


----------



## johnmeyer

As I posted a few months ago, an ohmmeter (part of the multi-meter) may not provide an answer because it uses low voltage to do its measurements. Generally speaking this is a good thing, but it can give you wrong answers when insulation breakdown is involved. Here's the story.

You are trying to measure the resistance between ground (the metal casing of the smoker) and each of the two wires from the plug. When you set the ohmmeter on the most sensitive range (where, if you grab both leads of the ohmmeter, it will measure the resistance through your body) you want to see infinity, i.e., infinite resistance. I am guessing is that is exactly the reading you will get. However, you may still have a problem. The reason for this is that some types of insulation failures are sensitive to the amount of voltage applied. In cases where resistance is constant (which is what Ohm's law assumes), the ohmmeter will still give you a reading, even at the low voltage produced by its batteries. However, insulation breakdown is not linear. The best example with which everyone is familiar is lightning. Nothing happens until the "insulation" provided by the air between the cloud and ground (or between clouds) suddenly breaks down and the electricity flows like crazy. Similarly, in your MES, the insulation may stop current from flowing when a very low voltage is applied, and you will measure nothing, but when enough voltage is applied (like 120 volts), the insulation may "leak," current will flow, and the GFI will trip.

In understanding electricity, it helps to use the water hose analogy: voltage is water pressure; current is the amount of water that flows; and resistance is the size of the hose. In this analogy, you have an insulator that keeps the water from going out of the hose at all. Think of the insulator as a cork that you put in the end of the hose. As long as the water pressure is low, the cork holds and no water flows. This is why your ohmmeter may not measure anything. However, turn up the water pressure to 60 psi, and bam, the cork pops and the water gushes out. If the water is electricity, and if your body is part of the circuit, the result is not pleasant.

There are ways to measure the leakage with a full 120 volts applied, but to do it safely requires an isolation transformer, a device to limit current in case there is a real short, and an ammeter. Only a trained EE or electrician should attempt such a thing. I am an EE, and I'm not sure I'd want to do it.

Just replace the heating element. Based on all the posts here, that is almost certainly the problem.


----------



## gasou93

Replaced the heating element last week.... finally.   Working like a charm.


----------

