# Can anyone recommend a good book on cold smoking?



## bandyka

Hello fellow passengers,

I am a very happy smoker so far enjoying the journey however soon as winter comes it will be time to master cold smoking especially sausages and salamis.

I am looking for a good book on the subject such as "Jeff Phillips' on hot smoking".

Any recommendations appreciated.

Cheers


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## daveomak

Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas.......   that's the book that I learned from....  then I came to this forum and my knowledge grew exponentially...   I learned from the First edition, 1976.....  the new editions are very much expanded...  My edition has some misprints as do all books and internet recipes...   basic knowledge on the amounts of cure to use, to be safe, are available here....  1 tsp. cure #1 per 5#'s of meat is the basics....  













Kutas.png



__ daveomak
__ Jan 31, 2015


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## bandyka

Thank you!

Bible ordered.

My only issue is I am in Australia so temperature is a big issue. Tried cooling the smoker with ice brick which was OK however due to condensation the sausages got wet and did not take in any smoke. I hope this will not be the case during winter and also hoping I will be able to hang-dry the sausages.


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## daveomak

Use plastic ice filled bottles....   Use the AMNPS in a Mail Box Mod with flex aluminum pipe to cool the smoke....     Unless you are in the outback where it gets to 120 F, you should be good to smoke...   You can smoke at night and refer during the day also....

In the original version, like I have, there is some good detail on how the "smokers" of old operated....   fans etc...  drying the meat and how to form a pellicle.... 

I hope the new expanded versions still hold the "old ways" methods.....


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## bandyka

hmm OK I can't wait for this book I am really anxious to cold smoke some sausages.

The problem is not the temperature of the smoke, the issue is the outside temperature. I was able to hold it below 5 degrees C but it still got humid inside the smoker hence no smoke effect on the sausages and no drying either. 

I use an electric bradley smoker with the cold smoker attachment.


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## chefboyrd

Bandyka,

I am reading the book Meatsmoking and Smokehouse design by Stanley,Adam and Robert Marianski,

And in there is a great chapter on cold smoking.


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## gary s

May have to pick me up one of those

gary


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## bandyka

Thanks Chef,

The bible by Rytek Kutas has just arrived and seems to have a nice chapter on cold smoking but once finished that one I might get your recommendation as well. I can never get bored of the topic.


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## bandyka

OK so I've been reading the book and so far it does not really talk about true cold smoking. It details the curing process which is great but it says the minimum temperature should be 80 F and looking for an internal temperature of around 150 F, so far I read and heard from the old folks that cold smoking needs to be done below 60 F.

What am I missing here? I understand curing and is all well however I am not 100% clear on drying and smoking temperatures yet.

If temperatures are low enough and the sausage is cured can I just hang them in a room to let them dry? Will the cure do its job even if the sausage is freshly made? What is the safe temperature range for this?

What is a true cold smoking temperature where the sausage will not cook?

Just trying to be sure.


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## diggingdogfarm

The definition of cold smoking will vary a bit depending I who you talk to, but IMHO, anyone who says that they're cold smoking above ~85 degrees may be  partaking of other forms of smoking. :biggrin:

The Marianski's pretty much have it right......

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/meat-smoking/cold-smoking


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## bandyka

Thanks Martin,

That's what I thought:)

Well that pretty much confirms what my old folks were telling me, sadly some of them are no longer with us to give me some proper advice. They used make the best Hungarian sausages I ever tasted. I miss them so much (the folks and sausages too)  hence my quest to learn and continue the tradition the proper way.

Now if someone could answer my other question in regards to drying please?


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## diggingdogfarm

In regards to the drying...the answer will depend on what exactly you're making (the specifics of the recipe.)
In other words, drying means something different in the context of different types of sausages....semi-dry, dry, etc.
There are varying safety considerations and the like.


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## bandyka

the one I am aiming for is Hungarian Csabai.

Made of: pork shoulder and leg, pepper ,salt, curing salt, paprika, garlic, caraway and pork fat.


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## foamheart

I just finished today what I call a warm smoke. A cold smoke is for folks that live where it gets cold. Where I live that just don't seem to happen enough to be able to plan a smoke around it.

I use a small amount of water just before putting the sausage in the casing to make it more fluid and easier to load and its a great way to better mix the cure in the meat.

This added water must be reclaimed in the smoker. I call it a dewater cycle, or a drying cycle. Its when you heat the smoker with all vents doors and windows open to allow the water to evaporate and travel outside the smoker. Then after about and hour I shut it all back down allow the box to cool down and and start my smoke cycle.

I have found that if I keep the box at less than 140 degrees I never worry about fat rendering or meat cooking. Actually I try to stal less than 130 to be safe.

So anyway, could that be the drying you are asking about?

Like I said there are numerous reasons for a warm vice a cold smoke. Warm smoke the meat takes the smoke much better. I can in 6 hours apply as much smoke if not more than it would take a cold smoker 60 hours to do. My region of the country doesn't have cold weather so I have to warm smoke. It is just the only way I can come close to a cold smoke.  It will never get cold enough to smoke butter here, But I never had smoked butter so I don't know what I am missing. I have smoked cheese, but you must be prepared for that one day that is cold this year ahead of time. I have learned what I can and can not do basically, what I can't do I'll just have to do without.

I can do bacon, sausages, hams, etc.... remember the 4/140 rule. you can smoke for 3 hours then an ice bath then in the reefer overnight to start again the next day (or night!). Cured meats change the rules.

We were just having a discussion about cured meats this last week. These guys around here are really a wealth of knowldge,  I just read the texts and it sort of soaks in like a brine cure. LOL

I just posted a bacon thread and it also has some pictures of a sausage warm smoke which might help.


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## bandyka

Thank you kindly for the lengthy post however no that's not the drying I am asking about. I am facing the same issue with climate here it only gets to around 10 degrees C during winter too.

However it should be fine to cold smoke it seems.

I've attempted a few batches and failed during summer even though I was able to maintain a very low temperature in the smoker. I've learned the hard way that it was due to humidity and the sausages not dried before smoking. I kept them in a fridge hence they could not dry out in fresh air hence they were not able take the smoke in.

So returning to my original question:

_If temperatures are low enough and the sausage is cured can I just hang them in a room to let them dry? Will the cure do its job even if the sausage is freshly made? What is the safe temperature range for this?  _

Many thanks


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## diggingdogfarm

Csabai is essentially a salami so it's dried in the same way.
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-recipes/salami-hungarian

I recommend that you read-up on dry curing sausages so that you can familiarize yourself with the process and the safety issues involved.
Here's a good place to start....
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/cultures
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/equipment
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/safety-hurdles
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/standards
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/traditional

HTH


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## atomicsmoke

Your folks were making the csabai sausage in Hungary I assume. In winter. 

You are in Australia, so the game changes. Let the sausages dry overnight in a cool room ( you said you get 10C in the winter) and bring them to room temp a few hours before smoking. Hang them for drying in the same cool room.


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## bandyka

Atomic thank you that's what I was asking as simple as that.

Csabai is definitely not a salami it is the most basic and typical Hungarian smoked sausage. I've been reading about the topic for months now and am familiar with the curing process but I need to hang them out to dry due to conditions here. I just wanted confirm if it was safe to do so.

So in plain words if they are properly cured they are fine to hang it seems. I assume yes as that's what butchers do.


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## bandyka

chefboyrd said:


> Bandyka,
> 
> I am reading the book Meatsmoking and Smokehouse design by Stanley,Adam and Robert Marianski,
> 
> And in there is a great chapter on cold smoking.


BTW I just bought this book as well and it seems to be very informative too. We'll get there:)


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## diggingdogfarm

bandyka said:


> Csabai is definitely not a salami it is the most basic and typical Hungarian smoked sausage. I've been reading about the topic for months now and am familiar with the curing process but I need to hang them out to dry due to conditions here. I just wanted confirm if it was safe to do so.
> 
> So in plain words if they are properly cured they are fine to hang it seems. I assume yes as that's what butchers do.



Apparently we define *csabai *differently.
The Hungarians in this area call it a salami.
I wish you the best of luck! :biggrin:


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## atomicsmoke

Bandyka,

This below is pretty much csabai kolbasz (without caraway).
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/175965/cold-smoking-season-2014-2015-pork-sausage#post_1307042


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## bandyka

well yes that's totally wrong let them know;) I've spent the first few years of my life as a little kid at the capitol of the Csabai sausage and still have some relatives living there. Its most definitely a sausage:)

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=csabai kolbász

Cheers


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Apparently we define *csabai *differently.
> The Hungarians in this area call it a salami.
> I wish you the best of luck! :biggrin:


Yep...we also have the salami version up here.  Sometimes they call it csabai salami , sometimes just Hungarian salami.


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## foamheart




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## bandyka

as long as it tastes good no matter what its being called...

There is a fantastic video of the most famous Pick salami of course the recipe is secret but the smoking and curing procedure alone worth a watch. Too bad its only in Hungarian.



Takes 90 days to make it I think you can actually get this in the US and Canada. This stuff is heaven. We are not allowed to import it to AUS unfortunately.


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## diggingdogfarm

Salami has become sort of a general word for dry-cured sausage, in this neck of the woods anyway.

What one of these do you recommend?
http://www.hungariandeli.com/Deli.htm


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## bandyka

Yes I've figured by reading articles here. Its fine we all know what we are talking about.

From that list IF they taste close to the real one I would pick the Gyulai (Gyula and Csaba are two cities next to each other) but the favourite would have to be "Paraszt" it means peasant referring to the most ancient sausages made in Europe.  Which is what I made not so long ago and was a huge success here. Too bad I failed with the smoking process.

Here is the thread on the attempt: (the ones for frying were absolutely delicious). The secret was the best quality meet and the paprika imported from a private farm in Hungary. (Chefs are bugging me to keep making them).

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...ly-smoker-need-advice-to-avoid-nasties-please

....and a photo of how a Csabai looks like from the remaining old folks in Csaba. (thats after 3x3 hours of smoke).













9e44a4ba0b7a23d0073c5ad7d3cde63bba57ad90958786bf17



__ bandyka
__ Dec 7, 2014






Tomorrow we are making "Hurka" without lounges and head meat.


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## dave17a

Foamheart said:


> I just finished today what I call a warm smoke. A cold smoke is for folks that live where it gets cold. Where I live that just don't seem to happen enough to be able to plan a smoke around it.
> 
> I use a small amount of water just before putting the sausage in the casing to make it more fluid and easier to load and its a great way to better mix the cure in the meat.
> 
> This added water must be reclaimed in the smoker. I call it a dewater cycle, or a drying cycle. Its when you heat the smoker with all vents doors and windows open to allow the water to evaporate and travel outside the smoker. Then after about and hour I shut it all back down allow the box to cool down and and start my smoke cycle.
> 
> I have found that if I keep the box at less than 140 degrees I never worry about fat rendering or meat cooking. Actually I try to stal less than 130 to be safe.
> 
> So anyway, could that be the drying you are asking about?
> 
> Like I said there are numerous reasons for a warm vice a cold smoke. Warm smoke the meat takes the smoke much better. I can in 6 hours apply as much smoke if not more than it would take a cold smoker 60 hours to do. My region of the country doesn't have cold weather so I have to warm smoke. It is just the only way I can come close to a cold smoke.  It will never get cold enough to smoke butter here, But I never had smoked butter so I don't know what I am missing. I have smoked cheese, but you must be prepared for that one day that is cold this year ahead of time. I have learned what I can and can not do basically, what I can't do I'll just have to do without.
> 
> I can do bacon, sausages, hams, etc.... remember the 4/140 rule. you can smoke for 3 hours then an ice bath then in the reefer overnight to start again the next day (or night!). Cured meats change the rules.
> 
> We were just having a discussion about cured meats this last week. These guys around here are really a wealth of knowldge,  I just read the texts and it sort of soaks in like a brine cure. LOL
> 
> I just posted a bacon thread and it also has some pictures of a sausage warm smoke which might help.


If cured though isn't 4/140 out the window?


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## dave17a

Foamheart said:


> I just finished today what I call a warm smoke. A cold smoke is for folks that live where it gets cold. Where I live that just don't seem to happen enough to be able to plan a smoke around it.
> 
> I use a small amount of water just before putting the sausage in the casing to make it more fluid and easier to load and its a great way to better mix the cure in the meat.
> 
> This added water must be reclaimed in the smoker. I call it a dewater cycle, or a drying cycle. Its when you heat the smoker with all vents doors and windows open to allow the water to evaporate and travel outside the smoker. Then after about and hour I shut it all back down allow the box to cool down and and start my smoke cycle.
> 
> I have found that if I keep the box at less than 140 degrees I never worry about fat rendering or meat cooking. Actually I try to stal less than 130 to be safe.
> 
> So anyway, could that be the drying you are asking about?
> 
> Like I said there are numerous reasons for a warm vice a cold smoke. Warm smoke the meat takes the smoke much better. I can in 6 hours apply as much smoke if not more than it would take a cold smoker 60 hours to do. My region of the country doesn't have cold weather so I have to warm smoke. It is just the only way I can come close to a cold smoke.  It will never get cold enough to smoke butter here, But I never had smoked butter so I don't know what I am missing. I have smoked cheese, but you must be prepared for that one day that is cold this year ahead of time. I have learned what I can and can not do basically, what I can't do I'll just have to do without.
> 
> I can do bacon, sausages, hams, etc.... remember the 4/140 rule. you can smoke for 3 hours then an ice bath then in the reefer overnight to start again the next day (or night!). Cured meats change the rules.
> 
> We were just having a discussion about cured meats this last week. These guys around here are really a wealth of knowldge,  I just read the texts and it sort of soaks in like a brine cure. LOL
> 
> I just posted a bacon thread and it also has some pictures of a sausage warm smoke which might help.


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## dave17a

Foamheart said:


> I just finished today what I call a warm smoke. A cold smoke is for folks that live where it gets cold. Where I live that just don't seem to happen enough to be able to plan a smoke around it.
> 
> I use a small amount of water just before putting the sausage in the casing to make it more fluid and easier to load and its a great way to better mix the cure in the meat.
> 
> This added water must be reclaimed in the smoker. I call it a dewater cycle, or a drying cycle. Its when you heat the smoker with all vents doors and windows open to allow the water to evaporate and travel outside the smoker. Then after about and hour I shut it all back down allow the box to cool down and and start my smoke cycle.
> 
> I have found that if I keep the box at less than 140 degrees I never worry about fat rendering or meat cooking. Actually I try to stal less than 130 to be safe.
> 
> So anyway, could that be the drying you are asking about?
> 
> Like I said there are numerous reasons for a warm vice a cold smoke. Warm smoke the meat takes the smoke much better. I can in 6 hours apply as much smoke if not more than it would take a cold smoker 60 hours to do. My region of the country doesn't have cold weather so I have to warm smoke. It is just the only way I can come close to a cold smoke.  It will never get cold enough to smoke butter here, But I never had smoked butter so I don't know what I am missing. I have smoked cheese, but you must be prepared for that one day that is cold this year ahead of time. I have learned what I can and can not do basically, what I can't do I'll just have to do without.
> 
> I can do bacon, sausages, hams, etc.... remember the 4/140 rule. you can smoke for 3 hours then an ice bath then in the reefer overnight to start again the next day (or night!). Cured meats change the rules.
> 
> We were just having a discussion about cured meats this last week. These guys around here are really a wealth of knowldge,  I just read the texts and it sort of soaks in like a brine cure. LOL
> 
> I just posted a bacon thread and it also has some pictures of a sausage warm smoke which might help.


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## foamheart

dave17a said:


> If cured though isn't 4/140 out the window?


Yes, pretty much. I still do my best though to stay within the 4/140 rule. I fudge some times but once I set something to always go by its seems to make my smoking easier. You know live for the norm but enjoy fudging with the exception to the rules?

If you always put on a seat belt, it just comes natural. But you crawl into a '66/'67 muscle car, I'll reach for it, but I doubt I'd wear it.


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## dave17a

Foamheart said:


> Yes, pretty much. I still do my best though to stay within the 4/140 rule. I fudge some times but once I set something to always go by its seems to make my smoking easier. You know live for the norm but enjoy fudging with the exception to the rules?
> 
> If you always put on a seat belt, it just comes natural. But you crawl into a '66/'67 muscle car, I'll reach for it, but I doubt I'd wear it.


Righton brother.


Foamheart said:


> Yes, pretty much. I still do my best though to stay within the 4/140 rule. I fudge some times but once I set something to always go by its seems to make my smoking easier. You know live for the norm but enjoy fudging with the exception to the rules?
> 
> If you always put on a seat belt, it just comes natural. But you crawl into a '66/'67 muscle car, I'll reach for it, but I doubt I'd wear it.


Gotcha and agree. Have not argued but said that exact measurements on curing is not excat. Like selling acreage Plus or minus.  Shrugs :} Back at Foam.


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## dave17a

Foamheart said:


> Yes, pretty much. I still do my best though to stay within the 4/140 rule. I fudge some times but once I set something to always go by its seems to make my smoking easier. You know live for the norm but enjoy fudging with the exception to the rules?
> 
> If you always put on a seat belt, it just comes natural. But you crawl into a '66/'67 muscle car, I'll reach for it, but I doubt I'd wear it.


Comin' down to taste.


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## chef krimlar

[h1]Calcium chloride can be used to keep the humidity down in your smoker, but set it up to keep any moisture from dripping into the container. Introducing water into it will cause it to form a reaction creating heat.( hot enough to burn you ) If you use a combination of both cures, nitrites and nitrates, the first provides protection from bacteria to start, the second is time-released to form the first, but  you will have to come up with the right ratio.I have *never* had a problem using prauge #2 alone, _*but I can't recommend it to you as a single cure source, so do your research*_. However ,I believe you should have no problems, so try a small batch first ? You can cure sausages at room temp, hang them well apart to allow air to circulate and provide a fan to keep air moving. A large metal cabinet will work well as long as you provide some screened vent holes, you want the air to circulate but you don't want the air to carry along any average air-borne particulates if they can be avoided. ( or any other hungry critters.) Cure temp should be OK as long as you don't go above 80 F. Try to stay in the low 70's. The sausage you are seeking is one of the few that is not fully cooked by smoking but finally cured.( as you probably already know), so _*every*_ factor of what you do will affect the flavor and texture of the final product, and the safety: *  grind size and handling /processing *_*times/ temps of meat and equipment to be used while processing are critical  for the food to be safe.    *_Here_,_  mostly the times - variants ; smoke/hang-dry/cure ; hang-dry/ smoke / cure ; smoke/ hang - cure   relate to the final taste / texture.      You can set up a "Cave" in your basement , or the room in your house with the least amount of Solar help to help control the heat factor. The amount of smoke generated by most smokers can be routed to vent directly out of any source,usually 1/2" tubing, either hot or cold.   Hope I helped a little.[/h1][h3]Kolbász[edit][/h3]




Csabai kolbász

_Kolbász_  is cooked Hungarian sausage, usually smoked. The best known and most popular versions are:

_Gyulai_  sausage is named after the Hungarian town of Gyula  and also has PGI  protection. [sup][2][/sup]It is slow cooked while being beech wood smoked. It is made from pork, 'szalonna' (Hungarian bacon fat), garlic, pepper, caraway, and a Hungarian red paprika. At the World Exhibition of Food in Brussels 1935, the Gyulai kolbász was awarded a gold diploma.[sup][3][/sup]  The sausage may be cut into thin slices and eaten alone or with bread. They are also added to many Hungarian dishes including lecsó  and potato/egg casserole (rakott krumpli).

_Csabai_  sausage is made in the town Békéscsaba, and has Protected Geographical Status(PGI) protection.[sup][4][/sup]  It is similar to Gyulai, but somewhat spicier. There are several variations in size and type, but it is a spicy sausage with a lot of paprika.

_Csemege kolbász_  is an mildly spiced cooked smoked sausage

_Cserkész kolbász_  is a cooked smoked sausage made from beef and pork.

_Debreceni kolbász_  is usually unsmoked or more mildly smoked, with a strong paprika flavour and used for cooking.

_Lecsókolbász_, a spicy cooked smoked sausage made specifically for serving as part of the dish lecsó,[sup][5][/sup]  a vegetable stew with peppers and tomatoes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride


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## chef krimlar

You Mates have  some Grass Fed RibEye?   Some Lamb lying around ?


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## bandyka

Thanks for the info. As a kid I used to watch my grand parents make the sausages over many many years ago but since we moved to the other side of the world I need to revive the tradition and sort of reinvent the wheel due to a different climate. We are now going into winter so temperatures should soon be fine. I will do another batch and report back. BTW the ones we did not attempt to to smoke turned out delicious, tested by about 50 people many suggesting I should setup an operation. Now if we could nail the smoking process...

Cheers


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## brownpeter335

I am also looking for a good book on cold smoking. Thanks a lot for sharing this.


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## rob sicc

chefboyrd said:


> Bandyka,
> 
> I am reading the book Meatsmoking and Smokehouse design by Stanley,Adam and Robert Marianski,
> 
> And in there is a great chapter on cold smoking.


I know I'm late to the party but I just finished reading Meatsmoking and smokehouse design.  It's worth getting.  It really helped me understand cold smoke.


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