# 40" MES 800 watt heating element MOD



## texacajun (Feb 23, 2010)

I am new to the site and was looking to see if anyone has ever replaced there 800 watt heating element on the older 40" MES with one of the newer 1200 watt heating elements. Also anyone now if the Electric Control Panel for the newer and older MES are the same so this MOD can be done. I thought about calling masterbuilt to find out if i could order a new 1200 watt heating element to help my smoker recover quicker after the door has been opend. From what i understand the newer MES 1200 heating element is replaceable unlike the old 800 heating element.


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## jamminjimi (Feb 23, 2010)

Good idea keep us posted if you call Masterbuilt.


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## rbranstner (Feb 23, 2010)

Hopefully someone will be along with some info for you very soon.


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## phil brown (Feb 23, 2010)

Even if nobody has done it yet, maybe we can figure out if it's safe before hooking it up.  I know there are a few people out there with both smokers; are the control boxes the same?  Remember, the new unit is consuming ~3 amps more than the old. I don't want to see anybody melt their control unit!  "Uh, honey, is brisket supposed to smell like burnt plastic?"


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## cigar smoker (Feb 24, 2010)

I e-mailed Masterbuilt with that same question a few weeks ago and this was their response:


We do not recommend interchanging the elements as that unit is not designed to carry the larger wattage. However, if you wish to purchase one, they are in stock and available for $39.99 each.

Please give us a call with any questions or concerns at 800-489-1581. Our offices are open Monday through Friday, 8 AM to 5 PM EST.


Thank you for doing business with Masterbuilt.


Sam Liedtke
[email protected]
Customer Service
Masterbuilt Mfg.


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## jamminjimi (Feb 24, 2010)

Hmmmm sounds like a challenge. I will have to talk to my engineer buddy and see what his thoughts are on the 3 amps. Anybody with both can you see a differnce in mounting?


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## ronp (Feb 24, 2010)

I have sold my other 2, 800 watters I have nothing to compare it to. All I have now is the 1200.


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## phil brown (Feb 24, 2010)

Anybody whose warranty is long gone could open it up and snap some pictures... just sayin'. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






The MES uses bang-bang control, right?  If so, it probably comes down to finding the thinnest wire or capacitor with the highest ESR and replacing it with something beefier.  Or maybe just pay the piper and get a new box...


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## texacajun (Feb 24, 2010)

After reading the responses I will give it a try. I am going to upgrade the wireing and the connectors on the back of the heating element. I did read on this forum about the wireing being 16 Gauge. Any one now if the new unit has the same 16 Gauge or is the old one 14 Gauge. Befor i do the 1200 watt heater upgrade i will  upgrade to 16 Gauge wire to help with the 3 extra amps the 1200 heating element pulls. I will post pics of the MOD and keep everyone informed. Thanks for everyones input.


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## deltadude (Feb 24, 2010)

Since your opening the back do it right go 12 gauge, you then won't have to worry about it.  14 ga would be the minimum you would want.


Note to those that asked about the controller if same as old one?
NO it isn't the new models have the meat probe built in.

What you could do to save the old controller, is put a relay or contactor with a 120v coil in the circuit.  The controller when activating heat element would send the juice down the wire to the contactor coil and close the circuit for 115v to the heat element.  When controller deactivates the power to coil is off thus opening the circuit for the element.


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## dirt guy (Feb 24, 2010)

I'd use 12 gauge if doing the mod.  You increasing the wattage by 50%--14 gauge probably isn't 50% larger in diameter than the 16 gauge, the 12 gauge would be more.  I'm not saying there is a direct correlation between wattage/wire diameter, it's just what I think I'd do.


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## dirt guy (Feb 24, 2010)

After thinking about it some more, the bigger wire might be overkill.  I replaced the heating element in my kitchen oven several years ago.  As I recall, the wires running to the element were very small--16, maybe 14 gauge at the most.  You may be fine without the 12 gauge.


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## gnubee (Feb 24, 2010)

16 gauge is thinner than 14 gauge. So you would be going the wrong way. 12 gauge would be even better. Regular house wiring is usually 14 guage.


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## kevin13 (Feb 24, 2010)

The PCB in the controller, at least in the new 40", is potted with a silicon material.  Removing it wouldn't be too much of a hassle, but will be your only shot in determining component ratings, such as caps, relays, etc., and replacing.

I don't think you'll have much of an issue with the larger element as the element probably isn't sourced directly through the PCB.  The components on the PCB are not running at 120V AC.


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## reeko (Feb 24, 2010)

Agreed, someone needs to find the relay and see what it is rated for. Also the wiring from the relay should be examined to see what gauge they are.


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## texacajun (Feb 24, 2010)

I took the main board out and cleand it up. Here are some pics of the board with close ups of the everything on. I  am looking up everything to find out if it will handle the load for the 1200 heating element and if it is the same as the new MES. I ordered the 1200 watt heating element from Masterbuilt today it will be in sometime next week so hopefully i will have it figured out by then any help would be great.Attachment 24087

Attachment 24088

Attachment 24089

Attachment 24090

Attachment 24091


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## texacajun (Feb 24, 2010)

close up of the caps there is only 2 on the main power board
Attachment 24092


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## deltadude (Feb 24, 2010)

The above componet shows the coil voltage (5amp at 30vdc) and the relay voltage (10amps 125 VAC).

A 1200 watt element will draw 10.43 amps at 115vac, it will never see 125vac.  Voltage on house circuit will be 110-115 volts.  

So while the above component might carry the load a few times it will most likely fail after a few uses.  If when it was made the tolerances were not tight it might be able to handle the load a many uses and then again it might fail on 1st usage.

However, it looks like they may be using the above low voltage relay, which switches to 115v then the 115v is sent to the 2 prong contactor using 115 volts on the coil and the contact rating has a 15amp rating and should easily carry the load.  (I need to see what wires are attached to the 2 prong contactor, was these the wires going to the heat element or were these the wires bring electrical to the controller?)





Texacajun, when you get the new element, can you start a new thread and do a step by step with all the pics, so we can put this mod in the list of MES Hot mods and have a well documented MES mod...  thx


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## texacajun (Feb 24, 2010)

ok here is a pic and a diagram as i think is correct for the connections.Attachment 24093


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## kevin13 (Feb 24, 2010)

I'd be curios as to how the PCB is laid out with the two relays.  I may have to take mine apart and check it out.


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## tjohnson (Feb 25, 2010)

Possible Mod to Your Mod???

If I were to go through the work of replacing the element, I would figure a way to switch the element from 1200 watts to 600 watts.

At 600 watts, you could maintain lower temps and boost it up to 1200 when needed.  Cabelas sells a unit with a 600 watt and 1200 watt switch.

Just a thought?!?!?



Todd


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## deltadude (Feb 25, 2010)

What you said above is essentially my plan.  

Below is IMHO

I believe the Masterbuilt engineers had the 40" basic design correct for smoking at 220-275º, too many watts = more BTUs thus higher cooking temp so with normal heat loss the 750w elements do fine.  That is until the door is opened, and not so good during initial ramp up to set temp.

750 watts  puts out 2560 BTUs of heat.  The approx. amount of BTUs to hold the 40" MES at 50º outside ambient is about 2000 BTUs.  The extra 22% of BTUs the at 750watts just isn't enough to overcome door openings below 70º outside ambients and the same for ramp up to set temp.

Of course MES owners complained about lousy ramp to set temp and poor temp recovery when door is open, and Masterbuilt upped the watts.  But I have found that once all the metal is thoroughly  heated (preheat) that recovery is actually fairly quick.  Anyway Masterbuilt sticks a 1200 watt element that puts out nearly 4100 BTUs of heat.  So whenever that element is on it is cooking a lot hotter than the old 750 watt element.  Whatever is closest to that element is NOT going to cook at same rate as the upper grates because there is a heck of a lot of extra heat.  Personally I think Masterbuilt did a bit of overkill on the extra wattage, they should have modified the controller to allow temps up 325 to cook and crisp up chicken, the new 1200 watt elements can easily achieve that temp and higher.

I want to avoid cooking the meat at higher temps..

Solution...

Two stage heating.
Primary stage is my 750 watt element which will handle main cooking duty.
Secondary element 300-400 watts, that will only kick on if the MES internal temp drops -15-20º from set temp, and will cycle off when internal temp returns to within -5º of set temp.  The primary can easily get the MES up another 5 deg.

I'm looking for a PID controller than can handle the logic of a set point with multiple triggers and control twin circuits.  Of course the price will have to be reasonable.  If I can't find such a controller, then I will simply put the secondary on a seperate circuit with its own PID controller that I would have to manually set below Primary setting.


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## texacajun (Feb 25, 2010)

That sound good I am going to do the 12 or 14 gauge wire upgrade and posible make a kit so others can do the same. I hope we you can get the 2 stage heating element mod to work. I will take my PCB apart and take some pics for you if that will help. I would like to see if the Main power Board on the new MES 40" is the same as mine with the 800 watt heating element.


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## ronp (Feb 25, 2010)

It just occured to me to have you call Masterbuilt and ask if they have the rewire kit available yet, I do know it was in the works.


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## texacajun (Feb 25, 2010)

I just called masterbuilt and talked to Amanda in the customer service department about a rewire kit. She stated they do not have a kit available. i asked if they where going to make a kit available. She stated that they have a body kit available to fix the bad wiring issues with the older MES's. Ronp is there someone you have been talking to at masterbuilt about a rewiring kit maybe she was unaware of one in the works. 

I have been looking into all the parts i will need IE high temp 12 or 14 gauge wire, high temp female connectors, and rivets to replace the ones you have to drill out to get to the bad wiring. I will keep everyone informed of my progress on the kit. Thanks to Ronp for the information.


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## pantherfan83 (Feb 25, 2010)

After drilling out the rivets, can't you just re-attach with sheet metal screws?


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## texacajun (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes if you are very careful drilling out the rivets you should be able to use screws. This would make it much easier to get the back off again to change anything else that could go bad. Good idea. I wonder what others have use to reattach there backs.


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## ronp (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes I was talking to someone else, I'll try and contact him again. You are welcome also.


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## texacajun (Feb 27, 2010)

I did purchased all the wire and connectors to do the wiring mod. I just finished doing the upgrade. i will start a new post on the complete job with pics and all the details. I am still waiting for the new 1200 Heating element to install it and run a smoke test. I will post the complete 1200 watt heating element mod when i complete the mod.


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## tjohnson (Feb 27, 2010)

Awesome Post!!!

Is there a way to switch my current heating element to 1/2 the wattage?

If the controller switches the element on & off, why couldn't a rheostat be placed in-line, just before the element?

Any Electrical Engineers out there?


Todd


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## phil brown (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm not an EE, but I play one on the interweb... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






A rheostat that can handle that kind of power will be huge, and you won't be saving any electricity; in effect, you're just moving some of the heat _outside_ the smoker.  A better option would be a variac, which you can usually find on eBay, but it'll also be rather big and heavy.  I think your best bet would be a solid-state light dimmer, if you can find one that will handle that much juice.  The dimmer should definitely be cheaper than either of the other options.


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## deltadude (Feb 27, 2010)

I asked Illini since he owns both the older MES 40" and the newer 1200 watt version about the additional heat.  Plus I have always found Illini to be very reliable and he loves to tinker so he is always thinking on how to improve something.

I hope he doesn't mind me quoting his PM response to my question:
Note he is referring to large cuts of meat, "pork butts, ribs, brisket" not heat sensitive like sausages and such.
So there is input from one very experienced MES owner.

Does that change my opinion about the extra heat, and why I would prefer staged heat.  Not necessarily, I would like to see some tests with a number of probes and in a variety of situations from very low outdoor ambient to high ambient.  I know that staged heating is used in HVAC and other applications as a way to save on electrical costs, so there is another benefit.  I still intend to do a staged heating mod as a fun project, 

I posted the above info because I know many are really happy with their 1200 watt units, and field experience is a better indicator than my quess or theory, how something works.


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## texacajun (Feb 27, 2010)

The main reason i decided to do this mod. I was attempting to smoke a 15 lb brisket and 4 racks of ribs at the same time. I have done this in the past 3 times with no issues. But this time the outside temp was a little colder (28 deg). Unlike last time i did the same amount of meat the temp was around 75 deg. I had a real issue with the heat coming up to 225 deg it was taking many hours. 

Note: I did not open the door at all any time. I also used hot water in the drip on the initial set up. I also adjusted the dampener many times to try and get the heat up.

I know that not allot of people smoke at these temps but. Supper bowl week end was not in the middle of June ether. 

I ended up doing a 5 hour smoke and cook on the ribs and i took the brisket off after smoking it a total of 9 hours. I had to wrap and oven bake  both for about 3 hours at 300 deg to finish them off. I was unable to get the internal temp up on the brisket. I have done 6 other larger briskets in less time.


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## tjohnson (Feb 27, 2010)

I can reach 250* at 10* outside temps with my new 1200 watt version.

It's 18* outside and I put a pork butt in my MES about 1/2 hour ago.  Temp in the box is currently at 237* and climbing.

Also took out the granite tile I was using as a baffle, and the temps seem to stabilize faster than with it in.

Because of the mass your're trying to smoke, I would bet adding a hotplate or charcoal starter would be beneficial.  I think there is a mod for adding a charcoal starter to a MES.

Found It!
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/for...hlight=element



Todd


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## tjohnson (Feb 28, 2010)

I think I found a solution to lowering the 1200 watt element to allow for lower temp smoking!!!

Just purchased one of these off EBay.
http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...ory_Code=Erobt

It's a 120 volt "Infinite Control Switch" for a stove and/or oven.  The wiring diagram shows it mounts from power, directly to the heating element.  Most of these switches are 220v, but I found a 120v for a good price.

I'll install it in the next week or so and post my results.

Wish Me Luck!


Todd


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## texacajun (Feb 28, 2010)

Sounds good hope everything works out sounds like a good options for fine tuning.


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## texacajun (Mar 1, 2010)

Good news i just got the new 1200 Watt heating element in the mail from Masterbuilt today. There is some detail installation instructions that came with it. I will be doing the upgrade and i will start a new post on the mod. Look for it soon.


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## tjohnson (Mar 4, 2010)

Texacajun.... Keep us posted.

I received the Infinite Control Switch in the mail.  It works by heating up a bi-metallic strip.  The more times it cycles, the hotter the element gets.  The fewer cycles the lower the temp.

Not really what I was after, but someone could possibly use for a smoker build.

For $12 it was worth a try.

Anybody want/need it?


Todd


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## flyweed (Jul 19, 2010)

hey guys....on the line of tearing into the backs of our MES's...I have a MES 30 inch

Model: 20070106     Serial: GA040923

I am hoping someone has drawn up a wiring diagram of this unit.  Anyone??

Dan


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## lgmark (Nov 28, 2012)

It is so much easier to get an adjustable thermostat and place it in your smoker with a 600-1,000 Watt 120 Volt heater. $16.99 at Graingers.com










Adjustable Limit, Auto Reset,210-290
Item # 6UDY7


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## bigtexun (Nov 30, 2012)

I would use an external contactor with 120v coil rather than wire the new element to the original relay, that way you don't stress the original relay...  Relays have very low safety margins and are likely to wear out first...


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