# Hot and Fast Brisket (5 Hours Total!)



## travisty (Oct 9, 2017)

Lately I have been exploring hot and fast techniques, because I have started a catering business on the side, and I just cant manage a 12+ hour cook when I already work a full time job. Anything over 6 hours just wasn't gonna cut it, so I searched and searched and found a few people doing it in under that, including a video from Myron Mixon. A local pro team "Team America" also does theirs in 5 hours, so I decided to give it a shot, and holy cow, I will NOT be going back!








16 lb Prime packer, cooked on my Yoder YS640. This thing was soooo juicy, and very tender. It retained most of the weight, and I only lost about 3 inches in total length (but I forgot to take weight)

Here is the basic recipe:
*Smoker Temp:* 350 degrees
*Time* (approximate): 5 hours total. 3 on smoke, and 2 wrapped
*Important factors:* Phosphate injection, cooked in pan, baste regularly, leave most fat on, cook fat-cap down. 
*Finishing internal temp:* approximately 205



Inject your brisket with a phosphate inclusive brisket injection. Rub her down with your favorite rub, or see the details of my rub in the body above. Cook the brisket at 350 for 3 hours, basting every 30 minutes. Wrap the brisket with some juice, beef stock, and/or butter (or your favorite wrapping liquid). Cook wrapped for about 2 more hours or until your IT reaches approximately 205 or until a toothpick/probe goes in like warm butter. Let the meat rest for at least one our, or up to 4 hours in a well insulated cooler. ENJOY!

(for a really long read, and detailed description, check out my site: www.lalunabbq.com)


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## travisty (Oct 9, 2017)

As a note: I haven't tried a hot and fast method without a phosphate injection, but I have been told in all of my research, and from other competition team friends that such a short hot method will not turn out great without it. 
If anyone has done one without an injection, or with just a broth type injection, let us know below how it turned out! 

It is likely that for my own home cooks ill still go 12 hours without an injection, or at least without phosphates, but for catering and competition, this it my new go-to.


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## noboundaries (Oct 9, 2017)

That Butcher's BBQ injection is some pricy stuff.  Well worth it if you're competing, I'm sure. 

I'm not competing, but as a result of this thread, I started doing some research.  Turns out baking soda contains monocalcium phosphate.  Cooks Illustrated marinated meat in water and baking soda and found it helped retain moisture and increased tenderness without affecting taste.  I've got some aluminum-free baking soda in the cabinet.  Just might have to experiment with making an injection concoction of Accent (MSG), Water, Beef Bouillon, and baking soda. I'll have to buy the Accent on my next trip to the grocers. 

Before I started smoking, I cooked briskets in the oven at 350F, uncovered for half the cook, then add liquid and cover for the remainder.  They always came out tender and juicy.  I've been slow smoking briskets at 225F overnight, then cranking up the temp to 275F, leaving them uncovered.  They come out juicy and tender, but I just might have to try the injection and 350F on the smoker. 

Thanks for the ideas T! Points!


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## chilerelleno (Oct 9, 2017)

Very intriguing, both the Hot-n-Fast and Phosphates.

And the brisket looks danged good.

LIKED


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## drunkenmeatfist (Oct 9, 2017)

travisty said:


> As a note: I haven't tried a hot and fast method without a phosphate injection, but I have been told in all of my research, and from other competition team friends that such a short hot method will not turn out great without it.
> If anyone has done one without an injection, or with just a broth type injection, let us know below how it turned out!
> 
> It is likely that for my own home cooks ill still go 12 hours without an injection, or at least without phosphates, but for catering and competition, this it my new go-to.


Do you think this method works best using a prime cut? I picked up a choice brisket earlier on sale. Do you think that a lesser cut needs more of a low and slow approach? I have tried using the Kosmos injection on a choice packer at 275 and it still ended up pretty dry except for the point.


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## travisty (Oct 9, 2017)

drunkenmeatfist said:


> Do you think this method works best using a prime cut? I picked up a choice brisket earlier on sale. Do you think that a lesser cut needs more of a low and slow approach? I have tried using the Kosmos injection on a choice packer at 275 and it still ended up pretty dry except for the point.



I would think that it probably wouldn’t work as great with the lower cut, may not be enough fat content to carry it over. That being said, if you’re down for the experiment with the chance of a fail, would be great to find out! Funny thing is, at my local Costco, the Prime Briskets usually run $2.99-$3.29 per pound, where the choice (also I trimmed full packer) is almost always more expensive. I have no idea why that, but I’m not gonna let them know if they just keep mixing it up. 

Diva-Q showed me a moth of where you store a choice brisket in a well controlled, unopened fridge for a month, and they come out as good as prime, but I don’t have the space to try it.


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## travisty (Oct 9, 2017)

Thanks for the points! It sure was good. That baking soda idea sounds intriguing, I’ll have to research that!


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## drunkenmeatfist (Oct 9, 2017)

travisty said:


> I would think that it probably wouldn’t work as great with the lower cut, may not be enough fat content to carry it over. That being said, if you’re down for the experiment with the chance of a fail, would be great to find out! Funny thing is, at my local Costco, the Prime Briskets usually run $2.99-$3.29 per pound, where the choice (also I trimmed full packer) is almost always more expensive. I have no idea why that, but I’m not gonna let them know if they just keep mixing it up.
> 
> Diva-Q showed me a moth of where you store a choice brisket in a well controlled, unopened fridge for a month, and they come out as good as prime, but I don’t have the space to try it.


You do the entire cook with the brisket in a pan? I have tried wet aging a choice brisket and it was slightly improved, but that could have been other factors. I am still trying to figure out briskets as I have only done a few and now I am using a new set up so your post has given me more to think about. Thanks


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## SmokinAl (Oct 10, 2017)

Whatever you did, that is certainly one good looking brisket!
Nice job!
Al


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## troutman (Oct 10, 2017)

I'm very intrigued by this whole thread.  I'm not a competition guy so phosphate injections are not even in my wheelhouse.  What exactly do phosphates do to shorten the cooking time?  I can grasp the idea of baking soda retaining moisture, I guess the concept is that during a faster cook moisture is pulled out of the meat at a faster rate thus risking dried out meat.  Correct?  It's the part about increasing tenderness that's got me stumped.  Increased moisture does not equate to increased tenderness.  Does the phosphate help break down connective tissue?  

Sorry for thinking out loud ramblings.  This thread has my attention.  Love to hear noboundaries experimental results.


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## travisty (Oct 10, 2017)

troutman said:


> I'm very intrigued by this whole thread.  I'm not a competition guy so phosphate injections are not even in my wheelhouse.  What exactly do phosphates do to shorten the cooking time?  I can grasp the idea of baking soda retaining moisture, I guess the concept is that during a faster cook moisture is pulled out of the meat at a faster rate thus risking dried out meat.  Correct?  It's the part about increasing tenderness that's got me stumped.  Increased moisture does not equate to increased tenderness.  Does the phosphate help break down connective tissue?
> 
> Sorry for thinking out loud ramblings.  This thread has my attention.  Love to hear noboundaries experimental results.




Yeah, so the whosphates do both help break down connective tissue and help retain mostruse. They are primarily a moisture absorber, but I get what your saying, that though moisture doesn’t equate entirely to tenderness, they are certainly closely related. The more moisture, the better environment for tissue breakdown, and the more moisture the better the end result. 
I’ve 100% had Briskets (and other meat) that has been very “tender” but still dry and that’s no fun. 
I honestly can’t say 100% what the results would be here to drop the phosphate injection, but based on my uses it’s not something I’m gonna risk the investment on trying. I do only use the phosphate injections (most commercial injections do have phosphates and/or glutimates for moisture retention) for catering and competition, and I can say without reservation that they are absolutely needed for competition, and a big part of that is the post cooking retention, so your brisket isnt totally dried out by the time it makes it to the judging table. 

The phosphates I don’t think do anything to shorten the cooking time, they are just there to help keep as much of the moisture in the meat as possible.


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## GaryHibbert (Oct 10, 2017)

Beautiful looking brisket.  But those cooking temps are way beyond my MES.
Gary


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## travisty (Oct 10, 2017)

If someone has the disposable income, I’d love to see this experiment without using phosphates... I would think that at the very least, you would need a good broth injection just to raise the moisture level as high as you can. 
If I end up with an extra smaller brisket at some point, I’ll give it a try and let you guys know how it goes. 
At least in my research I couldn’t find any other 5-6 hour methods that did not include a phosphate inclusive injection.


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## troutman (Oct 10, 2017)

travisty, how would you rate this brisket against one you've cooked for 10-12 hours?  By the way, the pictures look excellent, great smoke ring with visual moisture.  I know Aaron Franklin cooks at 275 all the time due to restaurant demands.  If 5 hours works then why sweat out 12?

One last question.  Why did you cook in a pan?  Did you lose bark on the fat cap as a result?

Oh yea, points for you on this one for sure!


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## heavyd4561 (Oct 10, 2017)

travisty said:


> As a note: I haven't tried a hot and fast method without a phosphate injection, but I have been told in all of my research, and from other competition team friends that such a short hot method will not turn out great without it.
> If anyone has done one without an injection, or with just a broth type injection, let us know below how it turned out!
> 
> It is likely that for my own home cooks ill still go 12 hours without an injection, or at least without phosphates, but for catering and competition, this it my new go-to.



I cook all my briskets hot and fast at 300 and never inject or use phosphates. I wrap in butcher paper and always have a super tender and juicy brisket


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## travisty (Oct 10, 2017)

troutman said:


> travisty, how would you rate this brisket against one you've cooked for 10-12 hours?  By the way, the pictures look excellent, great smoke ring with visual moisture.  I know Aaron Franklin cooks at 275 all the time due to restaurant demands.  If 5 hours works then why sweat out 12?
> 
> One last question.  Why did you cook in a pan?  Did you lose bark on the fat cap as a result?
> 
> Oh yea, points for you on this one for sure!






Hey thanks for the points. Yeah, I cooked in the pan to just help keep as much of the moisture in the environment as possible (it also makes cleanup a breeze!) I know that a lot of people just cook in pans all the time no matter what, cause it is certainly easier for clean-up, wrapping, rotating and moving around, and really the small amount of bark you loose is no big deal. 

There for sure wasn’t really any bark on the fat cap, but I did leave the whole thing, so that’s a lot of fat, and most people remove it. When I cook in competition I do take off pretty much all of the fat so I can get rub and bark all the way around. Another more successful pro team than mine that I’ve cooked with leaves the whole fat cap on for his competition, cooks in a pan and doesn’t even bother rubbing the fat cap side, then just cuts it off before boxing. 

I think that this brisket was at least as good as any brisket I’ve ever cooked. I’ve cooked more Briskets than I can count at the 12-14 hour range, and they are a lot of work. I 100% won’t cook One low and slow for catering again, and I will probably at least try this method in my next competition to see how I like it there, though time isn’t an issue since I’m there all night anyway, and like I said before, I like bark and rub on both. Sides of the whole packer. 



heavyd4561 said:


> I cook all my briskets hot and fast at 300 and never inject or use phosphates. I wrap in butcher paper and always have a super tender and juicy brisket



Thanks for the weigh in! That’s what I was looking for. Please give me more details so I can try your method. What’s your total time and at what point do you wrap? I’d love to have a more hot and fast non-injected option for when I do Briskets for myself/ my family.


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## troutman (Oct 10, 2017)

Did a little reading about sodium phosphate and still not entirely sure of the benefits.  It does seem to be a good compound for moisture retention (positive) and emulsification (which may help retain other injecting compounds).   I looked at FAB B and Butcher BBQ injections and noticed both utilize MSG as well.  Not a big fan of that.

Anyway I'll stick with my low sodium beef broth injection recipe and try a little higher temp in my next packer cook.  Again cutting down on time with similar results is a win-win.


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## bregent (Oct 10, 2017)

I don't typically inject, but I do use phosphate in some sausages to keep them extra juicy. It's pretty inexpensive - 14oz for $15 and you use about 4.5 grams per pint of injection. The stuff I use is called PhosThis! and available at Amazon


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## tallbm (Oct 10, 2017)

Just an FYI, my mother cooks briskets hot and fast at like 400F or a little higher without any injection and has no problem.  I don't know her method but it is possible and comes out well so if you ever want to try without injection feel free to give it a whirl :)

Good to hear about your hot quick method, keep up the good work :)


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## heavyd4561 (Oct 14, 2017)

[QUOTE="travisty, post: 1756546, member: 80734"
Thanks for the weigh in! That’s what I was looking for. Please give me more details so I can try your method. What’s your total time and at what point do you wrap? I’d love to have a more hot and fast non-injected option for when I do Briskets for myself/ my family.[/QUOTE]

I take a whole packer, trim a ton of fat off the point and especially aggressive where the muscles connect. I put it on at about 325 and let it settle to 300. At 265 I split the packer, reason the point and put back unwrapped for burnt ends. Wrap the flat in butcher paper and goes back on until 203. The difference I find in the butcher paper is the bark it’s incredible!!Depending on size 4-5 hours. Here are a few pics


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## cksteele (Oct 14, 2017)

i know legendary Texas BBQ   pitmaster  john  mueller  does the hot and fast method  and people rave about his BBQ  brisket  though from what i understand he doesn't inject  hes got a shack in  georgetown texas


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## bdskelly (Oct 14, 2017)

I'm late on this... work has gotten in the way.  I certainly understand the process if you're in need of producing product for sale.  
My circumstances are different.  My hobby feeds my family Sunday dinner.  So time really isn't an issue. In fact I enjoy the hours of "fiddling".
Interesting method though. When I get into a time crunch I'll give it a try! B


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## bregent (Oct 16, 2017)

I did a hot fast brisket today for the first time and it came out great. 17.5 lb USDA Prime trimmed to 13lbs. Seasoned with salt and pepper last night. Put a light dusting of Black Ops on this morning, and onto the pellet grill running at 180F at 8:30AM. Wanted to start off low to get some smoke on it. At 9:30AM raised the temp to 300F. At noon left to take the dog on the trails so lowered to 275 just in case. The walk took longer than expected and I got back at 2PM. Ran up to check the meat and it was done!  In fact, it could have been done 30-60 minutes earlier. Separated flat and point, wrapped in butcher paper and into cooler for a few hours until guests arrived. Sliced up the flat to serve tonight, put the point in the fridge for tomorrow. The flat was pretty moist, but I think could have been much better if I had gotten back sooner. The flavor was terrific. One reason I've avoided hot and fast was because I heard you don't get a good bark, but that certainly was not the case. I will definitely do it again but will stick around to monitor more closely. I'll add pics of the point when I slice it up tomorrow.


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## travisty (Oct 17, 2017)

Wow, thanks guys, those are some great looking Hot and Fast briskets, guess ill have to pull out my last reserved brisket and go ahead and try the hot and fast without an injections to see how I like it! You have giving me the confidence to not worry that it'll be a waste.
BREGENT, looks like you didn't have to worry about that bark after all! That's the same thing I found with mine, though I did add a charcoal product to my rub to darken it a bit, it was still plenty "barky" without it, so ill probably drop or lessen the charcoal going forward. 

Like some mentioned, yeah my product is for a resale purpose so the things like injection and the charcoal in the rub helps me to produce a more consistent product, and have a better guarantee of juicy and attractive meat. I don't consume much injected meat myself, but I don't mind it that much either. 

Got a little 12 pound Prime Packer in the freezer ill pull out to start thawing for this weekend, ill try it with no injection at the same 5 hour timeframe, and let Y'all know how it turns out.


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## jond36 (Oct 24, 2017)

Any word on that prime packer?


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## kam59 (Oct 24, 2017)

We cook hot and fast at competitions and at home. 275°/325° is the norm for us on brisket and ribs. We cook primes at competition and inject to prolong the moisture retention once sliced. At home no injection and the briskets turn out great in fact doing a hot and fast select will yield a better product because of the lower fat content. Going low and slow on a big ole select will often yield a dried out flat.
This is a hot and fast 16 lb choice total cook time was 6 hours with a two hour rest.


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## travisty (Oct 24, 2017)

jond36 said:


> Any word on that prime packer?




Yes sir! And I will upload some photos later, but right now, my computer is not cooperating.

So this weekend I pulled out a 11.6 pound prime whole packer. Trimmed off probably about 2 pounds, so it was pretty much my competition trim where there is very little fat remaining. 
This time, I did not inject with a commercial injection, but I did inject a small amount (about 16 OZ total) of beef broth, with a bit of seasoning, and a few dashes of a chipotle hot sauce. Rubbed it down with a pretty basic SPOG rub.

Fired the Yoder YS640 up to 350, and on she went, sitting in a shallow aluminum whole pan. At the 3 hour mark, I probed it and wrapped it with some of the same injection juice and some butter. Temp at wrapping time was about 168. At just 1 hour and 20 minutes into the wrap my 200 degree alarm went off. She was between 198 and 204 and probe tender. 

Put her into the cambro wrapped up for about 2.5 hours before it was time to eat.

The result:
Still fairly juicy, and tender, but pretty far off as the one with the commercial/phosphate type injection from last week. Because I basically used the same rub, the flavor was pretty much the same, which was actually surprising as the butcher BBQ injection can be pretty strong. The meat was a bit more dry overall, and the bend and pull tests were not top notch like the one last week was. 
She still looked and tasted great, and to the family and friends that had it, it was "the best brisket they have ever had" but to me it was a bit shy of others I've done.

The conclusion:
I will continue to do my 5 hour hot and fast, less trimmed and injected with butcher BBQ Prime Brisket for all catering, and competition events going forward with small tweaks here and there; however, when I am doing at home cooks, I will go old school low and slow with no injection, as I can turn out a perfect brisket that way, and why fix it if it isn't broken! 

That being said, I am always open to learning and trying new things, so ill keep experimenting and tweaking as I go, and as I'm sure most of us do.


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## jond36 (Oct 24, 2017)

Sounds great! I will try the 5 hour burn. I know its been debated many times, but how does the pan work out for you? Does it impact the bark at all or make the bottom soggy?


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## troutman (Oct 24, 2017)

I like you concluding remarks travisty.  I'm not big into Kosmos Q or Butchers BBQ because of the plethora of chemical additives and MSG.  I have purchased some Sodium Triphosphate and do want to see what the moisture retention is like after using it.  Since I'm still basically a backyard guy, I too will stay with the low and slow approach.  The faster method may be better in a pinch so thanks for sharing all that with us.


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## travisty (Oct 24, 2017)

jond36 said:


> Sounds great! I will try the 5 hour burn. I know its been debated many times, but how does the pan work out for you? Does it impact the bark at all or make the bottom soggy?




I have been VERY against the pan idea for a long time, just sort of stressing about it affecting the bark and/or smoke flavor, but after seeing like most of the competition teams I compete with do it, I decided to try it out a few times, figuring it cant be that bad. So far I have done it one 4 briskets, and they have all worked out perfectly fine. the main benefit being the cleanup I think rather than anything to do with the cook. I always cook my briskets fat cap down anyway, so really there isn't a bark concern there no matter what. Also, in competition BBQ you don't want too much smoke flavor, so maybe it even helps, but I don't really know. 

I have always cooked my competition chicken in pans, but I think that's pretty standard, and you're obviously not worried about "bark" there.

I haven't tried it yet on pork butt, but like I said, many of my friends do it with pork butts too with great results. Again, I think the main benefit is cleanup, and again, I have always cooked my pork butts fat cap down anyway, so there isn't a bark issue there.

The main reason I don't think I can do it wholesale is that when I'm doing catering stuff, there will never be enough room for a bunch of panned items in the smoker, but for the single brisket, not having to clean my grates on a lazy sunday afternoon was nice. 

Honestly, I think other people may have stronger opinions here, but I'm not "against" the pan method one way or another at this point. Just makes cleanup and transport a heck of a lot easier, and o don't honestly think it affects anything other than the fact that all your brisket au jus will be safe and sound.


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## travisty (Oct 24, 2017)

Alright, as promised, here are the pictures form the last cook. Like I said everything looked great, and it was a great brisket, but of course we are our toughest judges, and particularly in this case, I was intentionally being real picky. ENJOY!


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## drunkenmeatfist (Oct 29, 2017)

I mostly followed this method today and had fantastic results. Picked up a small 8lb packer, it was trimmed by the grocer. They always sell some untrimmed and then bump the cost on the trimmed. Well the trimmed are on sale and the 8lb brisket was cheaper than several of the chuck roasts they had. It was a choice brisket.

Injected with Kosmos, rubbed, and put it in a pan in the kamado at 350. At around 3 hours it was closer to 170 in the flat when I went to wrap. I looked at it and wasn't pleased by the lack of bark at that point so I just left it uncovered. I ended up pulling it off at 5.5 hours in and 203 in the flat. The temp dropped closer to 300 for the last bit of the cook.

Took it inside and put foil over the top of the pan and let it sit. Almost dropped the thing in the driveway before i took it to a friends house. Total rest time was about 45 minutes in the foiled pan. The result was the best brisket I have made. I am still new so I have only made a handful, but this was great. The flat was still moist and tender for once. 

We had some sliced pieces from the flat and chewed on some of the point. The point was out of this world. Then after the sliced flat had dried a bit from sitting out I chopped it up. I threw that chopped meat in the pan that was used for the cook with all of the drippings and burnt pieces. Scraped that around and that is some damn good chopped beef. 

The leftovers from the point will be going into a chili tomorrow. If I didn't make an effort to save the point it would have been eaten. Thanks for introducing me to this method. It worked well.


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## mrad (Oct 31, 2017)

I tried this method Saturday with little success. I'm guessing part of the issue may have been with the size of the cut. I stopped at my local supermarket to buy a flat (raincheck for $3.49 lb). When I got their, they only had partials. The meat dept said they were out of season now. The biggest one I could find was just over two pounds.  I mixed 3/4 cups of beef broth with 3 grams of phosphate and injected. Threw it in the smoker at 160 for 45 minutes and then turned temp up to 325. Covered the foil pan at about 170 and uncovered again at 190m hoping to get some bark.  This thing turned out as dry as any brisket I have cooked.


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## travisty (Oct 31, 2017)

mrad said:


> I tried this method Saturday with little success. I'm guessing part of the issue may have been with the size of the cut. I stopped at my local supermarket to buy a flat (raincheck for $3.49 lb). When I got their, they only had partials. The meat dept said they were out of season now. The biggest one I could find was just over two pounds.  I mixed 3/4 cups of beef broth with 3 grams of phosphate and injected. Threw it in the smoker at 160 for 45 minutes and then turned temp up to 325. Covered the foil pan at about 170 and uncovered again at 190m hoping to get some bark.  This thing turned out as dry as any brisket I have cooked.




Oh no! sorry to hear that. Yeah, sounds like the size was probably the main issue. Really hard to keep moisture in that. 
For me personally I wont even cook full flats, I prefer the whole packer and feel like it gives me more control over the outcome, plus in my business and competition I never have a need to cook just one or the other. 
The only way I've personally been able to get a small flat only to come out tender is to braise it. I've done a few flat only cooks with bigger fattier flats with good success. Again, that's me, I'm sure other cooks have methods and skills to do it.


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## mrad (Oct 31, 2017)

I was hoping they had a full flat that usually runs 5-7lbs at my local to give a test run without having to run to coscto to get the full packer.  along with me only having a few hours for the cook. I should have known better, but wanted to try this method, and against my better judgement I purchased the smaller cut.


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## mrad (Jan 19, 2018)

How long prior to the cook does the brisket need to be injected?
I think I going to try this on Sunday before the football game with a 16lb packer that has been wet aging for 30 days. Hope to have it on the smoker by 11:30 and give it a one hour rest before slicing.


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## kam59 (Jan 19, 2018)

You can inject right up to going on the cooker. For comps I inject about 10 hours before but that is because I am pre-prepping my meat Friday night. We did one the other day and injected it while the cooker was coming up to temp.


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## mrad (Jan 19, 2018)

Thanks Kam,

One more question. How much broth would I want to inject into the brisket with the phosphate for a 16lber


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## kam59 (Jan 19, 2018)

I use commercial injections so I am not sure on the broth. I do inject 16 ounces into a 16/18 lb.


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