# There Is A Difference Between Low And Slow And Lower And Slower



## daricksta (Sep 16, 2017)

ThermoWorks sent me a very interesting newsletter which confirmed in print what I've instinctively and logically thought. This also applies to a Crock Pot that has Low and High settings. A number of SMF members prefer to smoke at 275°F but I've chosen not to because, to me, real low and slow cooking is done at temps between 225-250°F. I've always thought that meats when meats full of connective tissuje, like brisket, boneless chuck, and pork shoulder, are hurried in a slow cooker or a smoker, those tissues won't bring down as completely as at lower, slower cooking temps. The ThermoWorks test in this article proves me right. Yes, the bark is browner and the meat is still flavorful. But the pulled pork cooked at 300°F in this article was a little stringier and firmer than the meat on the pork shoulder cooked at 225°F.

So, it becomes a matter of personal preference in the tradeoff. If you want to smoke a pork shoulder or a beef brisket and would like to trim six hours or so off the smoke, cook at a higher temp. If you have the time for you and your roast to kick back and get mellow for 9-12+ hours or so, set the controller temp low. The bark may not be as darkly browned but the flavors and tenderness will be_ there_. Here's a link to that article: 

http://blog.thermoworks.com/2015/10...mpaign=Sep2017-ThermaQ-DOT-Sale-Ends-Today-cs


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## chilerelleno (Sep 16, 2017)

I read that too.
I've messed around with cooking at 275° +/- with the same results.
It's a give and take, and definitely allows one to bang out some satisfactory BBQ in less time.

And then there is the Hot-n-Fast crowd that seem to get a danged good product on the table.
From competition crews and well known restaurants, to the average Joe on his patio.

Just today, I ran some St. Louis ribs through the smoker Low-n-Slow.
225°-240° for 6.5 hours, no crutch, perfect slight tug off the bone tenderness.
If I have the time, I'll take it.


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## pc farmer (Sep 16, 2017)

I agree.  All depends on what I want to achieve.  I like a pulled pork with some bite to it.  I have also done a brisket for 23 hours. 

Ribs are done in 1.5 hours.  Perfect bite and tender.  

I am in the hot n fast group but it's spinning the meat.  

For overnight cooks it's low n slow.

Each method has it's place.


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2017)

ChileRelleno said:


> I read that too.
> I've messed around with cooking at 275° +/- with the same results.
> It's a give and take, and definitely allows one to bang out some satisfactory BBQ in less time.
> 
> ...


I'm smoking both ribs and brisket naked. But I might rethink the brisket. I just began watching the old Aaron Franklin BBQ series on PBS. He once did a test and determined that butcher paper-wrapped briskets came out slightly better than naked. I bought a big roll of it last year but have only used it once or twice. 

I'm still sticking with the temp range for all my hot smoking we've both agreed is best.


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2017)

c farmer said:


> I agree. All depends on what I want to achieve. I like a pulled pork with some bite to it. I have also done a brisket for 23 hours.
> 
> Ribs are done in 1.5 hours. Perfect bite and tender.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by "spinning the meat"? I haven't heard that term before. 23 hours? I hope you slept at least 8 hours thru it. When I smoked a whole packer earlier this summer, I had it in the smoker overnight, 21 hours or so, I think. I'd have to look up my post about it. That's the longest I've ever smoked a brisket and the IT was just where I wanted it. When I sliced it there was still some pink to the meat with just the amount of bark I wanted, which surprised me. Franklin's briskets come out brown with a lot of black bark.


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## SmokinAl (Sep 18, 2017)

I've tried both methods too & can find very little difference in the final product, other than the cooking time.

I had a 9.5 lb. butt in the freezer for about 1 1/2 years & just got it out a few days ago when the hurricane hit. I set it up in my WSM/Guru with the generator running the guru. I started it out at 210 & after 12 hours I set it to 235 to finish it off. It took 22 hours to get done & I never wrapped it, everyone in the neighborhood loved it. I have done that same sized butt in 12 hours at 280 on the Lang with pretty much the same results.

Al


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2017)

SmokinAl said:


> I've tried both methods too & can find very little difference in the final product, other than the cooking time.
> 
> I had a 9.5 lb. butt in the freezer for about 1 1/2 years & just got it out a few days ago when the hurricane hit. I set it up in my WSM/Guru with the generator running the guru. I started it out at 210 & after 12 hours I set it to 235 to finish it off. It took 22 hours to get done & I never wrapped it, everyone in the neighborhood loved it. I have done that same sized butt in 12 hours at 280 on the Lang with pretty much the same results.
> 
> Al


Al, you smoke in a WSM? I have a MES 30 Gen 1 and I wonder if using electric heat and wood pellets would bring about a different result, unless heat is heat no matter what the source? I think I've only smoked a pork shoulder once and it would have been between 235-250°. There's a pork shoulder in my freezer around 8 lbs. that's waiting for me to decide what to do with it. 

Man, you made it through Irma? I hope you lived in an area that didn't flood too badly and your home didn't suffer much if any damage. And you fed the neighborhood, what a guy! I gave you points for that. How much sleep do you give yourself over those long smokes?


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## chilerelleno (Sep 18, 2017)

Spinning = Rotisserie


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2017)

ChileRelleno said:


> Spinning = Rotisserie


Thanks! Now I know a new (to me anyway) term.


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## noboundaries (Sep 18, 2017)

Until I started smoking meat, I did pulled pork and briskets in the oven at 350F, uncovered for half the roast, then adding onions and garlic to the pulled pork, veggies to the brisket, and wrapping until tender and juicy.  Never was a fan of slow cookers.  Pretty much only used them then, and now, for reheating meat. 

Once I started smoking meat, I started low n slow, graduated to hot n fast, and now I'm a low n slow start with a hot n fast finish after the stall.  I do that with both pulled pork and brisket.  Never noticed much of a difference in the final result.  I like pulled pork with a little bite, but not stringy.  Hate it when it's mushy and overcooked.  Brisket I like tender and juicy.  That's never a problem with the point.  With the flat, I like it  just on the slicing side of being too tender to slice. If I smoke it a little too long and it crumbles, it still tastes great.      

I've gone back to low n slow only for spare ribs.  I find that by giving myself more time before dinner, it makes for a more relaxing all-day smoke. My wife and daughters ordered FOTB ribs this past Saturday.  8.5 hours until probe tender for two 6 lb+ rib racks at 240F chamber temp, no spraying or wrapping, just saucing as they requested, and they were perfect for them.  I always eat last, old habit. I got three of the small end bones on Saturday, two on Sunday.  They devoured the rest of the ribs, including the untrimmed big meaty end.  My wife was celebrating her birthday 3 weeks late with our daughters, so even though I did the cooking/smoking/etc, I still ended up doing the dishes.   

Whatever works for the smoker and you is best.  Learning that is a lot of the fun.

Ray


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## Bearcarver (Sep 18, 2017)

My MES units do 99% of their work below 230°, but mainly because I like to give the extra time for more light smoke.

The only time I ever went over 250° was the last hour on some Chicken Thighs to crisp up the skin.

So I can't say what over 275° is like, because all of my MES units Max out at 275°.

Bear


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## GaryHibbert (Sep 18, 2017)

I've always been a loe and slow smoker for ALL the meat I cook.  But I finally had an opportunity to test out the difference between low and & hot and fast.

The results showed only a couple of differences.  Here's the link to that comparison.


http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/268221/comparison-of-pork-butt-done-2-ways#post_1752085

Gary


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> Until I started smoking meat, I did pulled pork and briskets in the oven at 350F, uncovered for half the roast, then adding onions and garlic to the pulled pork, veggies to the brisket, and wrapping until tender and juicy.  Never was a fan of slow cookers.  Pretty much only used them then, and now, for reheating meat.
> 
> Once I started smoking meat, I started low n slow, graduated to hot n fast, and now I'm a low n slow start with a hot n fast finish after the stall.  I do that with both pulled pork and brisket.  Never noticed much of a difference in the final result.  I like pulled pork with a little bite, but not stringy.  Hate it when it's mushy and overcooked.  Brisket I like tender and juicy.  That's never a problem with the point.  With the flat, I like it  just on the slicing side of being too tender to slice. If I smoke it a little too long and it crumbles, it still tastes great.
> 
> ...


I think there's a difference in slow cooking meat in a Dutch oven or in a slow cooker and cooking it in a smoker. I like to try some experiment with just about every smoke. Out of necessity, when it's gotten too close to dinner time and the ribs or brisket weren't done I've boosted the smoker temp to get the meat to finish quicker.  Now I plan my smokes so that whatever time it takes for briskets to get past the stall that's how long it takes, and however much time it takes to reach 203° or so IT, that's how long it takes. Still exploring cooking wrapped/unwrapped with ribs and briskets. The last racks of baby backs I cooked unwrapped turned out great. I also tried mopping them as part of the experiment. 

Speaking of a brisket point, I smoked my first whole packer a few weeks ago and I think I nailed the burnt ends, although there are a few different recipes for making them. I combined parts of a couple of recipes and it worked. I've still got about half the flat yet. Even though the brisket cooked to that 203° IT I talked about and was super tender, the meat still had some pink to it, which surprised me. I cooked it unwrapped for about 21 hours at 235-250°. I'm making Philly Cheesesteak Paninis this week out of it, again...as an experiment. 

So, you cook up spare ribs? I've thought about buying those since I grew up on the way my dad made them. I just prefer the meatier baby backs to spare or St. Louis style. If I don't mop the ribs I spread on the sauce in the last 20 minutes or so and then when they're resting on the cutting board. My family doesn't like a lot of bark and they like some sauce but not a lot. 

When I cook FOTB ribs I tell my wife and our kids (if they're home and eating with us) that I overcooked them but they like it that way anyway. There was some tug to those last b-backs and that's how _I_ like it. And yeah, whether or not I cook or the wife does and whether it's her birthday or mine, I generally do the dishes and all the cleanup. 

And you are right: learning is a lot of fun and the acquired knowledge and skills make smoking more fun. I am now levels beyond where I was when I first started smoking 5 years ago. 

Rick


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## noboundaries (Sep 18, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> *So, you cook up spare ribs? *I've thought about buying those since I grew up on the way my dad made them. I just prefer the meatier baby backs to spare or St. Louis style. If I don't mop the ribs I spread on the sauce in the last 20 minutes or so and then when they're resting on the cutting board. My family doesn't like a lot of bark and they like some sauce but not a lot.
> 
> When I cook FOTB ribs I tell my wife and our kids (if they're home and eating with us) that I overcooked them but they like it that way anyway. There was some tug to those last b-backs and that's how _I_ like it. And yeah, whether or not I cook or the wife does and whether it's her birthday or mine, I generally do the dishes and all the cleanup.
> 
> ...


Locally, I've found that the untrimmed, Hormel brand of spare ribs are VERY meaty.  6 lbs is the smallest rack I'll buy.  I saw a rack of untrimmed Hormel spares this past Saturday morning that was over 9 lbs and 3" thick!  If there had been two in the bin I would have got them both, but the one they had was $2.28/lb. 

BBs around here rarely drop to less than $2.99/lb.  In most stores in my area they are $3.99 to $5.99/lb.  I can buy untrimmed spares from 99 cents/lb to $1.88/lb pretty much year round.  The two racks I picked up this past Saturday were $1.78/lb.  Total weight was 12.52 lbs.  The fat renders nicely.  The bones don't weight that much, and the racks are meaty.  Given the difference in price, I just can't justify buying the BBs.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> Locally, I've found that the untrimmed, Hormel brand of spare ribs are VERY meaty.  6 lbs is the smallest rack I'll buy.  I saw a rack of untrimmed Hormel spares this past Saturday morning that was over 9 lbs and 3" thick!  If there had been two in the bin I would have got them both, but the one they had was $2.28/lb.
> 
> BBs around here rarely drop to less than $2.99/lb.  In most stores in my area they are $3.99 to $5.99/lb.  I can buy untrimmed spares from 99 cents/lb to $1.88/lb pretty much year round.  The two racks I picked up this past Saturday were $1.78/lb.  Total weight was 12.52 lbs.  The fat renders nicely.  The bones don't weight that much, and the racks are meaty.  Given the difference in price, I just can't justify buying the BBs.


Does Hormel add a 2% saline solution to its ribs? We see a lot of Swift Premium here (Costco sells that brand and it no longer contains solution plus the membranes on the ribs have already been removed) for b-backs and St. Louis. They sell for $3-4 a pound. My favorite supermarket to buy meat is Safeway. They have their own brands that also sell for $3-4. For b-backs, I tried their Open Nature brand made from Duroc heritage pigs but it was a premium price. I thought I could tell the difference between that and the regular b-back I bought and smoked along with the Open Nature. What I don't like about St. Louis, and by extension regular spareribs, are the little cartidge-filled bones on the ends since I just have to remove them from my mouth when chawin' down on a rib. B-backs don't have that bony section and I think they're meatier and more tender than SLC or spareribs. But if I could find a store that has the meaty spareribs you've described on sale I'd buy a package. I never pay more than $3.99 a pound for regular b-backs (although I might try that Open Nature brand again) and when I see them for $2.99 I'm a happy guy. Those are prices around here.


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## noboundaries (Sep 19, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> *Does Hormel add a 2% saline solution to its ribs? *We see a lot of Swift Premium here (Costco sells that brand and it no longer contains solution plus the membranes on the ribs have already been removed) for b-backs and St. Louis. They sell for $3-4 a pound. My favorite supermarket to buy meat is Safeway. They have their own brands that also sell for $3-4. For b-backs, I tried their Open Nature brand made from Duroc heritage pigs but it was a premium price. I thought I could tell the difference between that and the regular b-back I bought and smoked along with the Open Nature. What I don't like about St. Louis, and by extension regular spareribs, are the little cartidge-filled bones on the ends since I just have to remove them from my mouth when chawin' down on a rib. B-backs don't have that bony section and I think they're meatier and more tender than SLC or spareribs. But if I could find a store that has the meaty spareribs you've described on sale I'd buy a package. I never pay more than $3.99 a pound for regular b-backs (although I might try that Open Nature brand again) and when I see them for $2.99 I'm a happy guy. Those are prices around here.


Yes they do.  Might even be higher than 2%.  I've got to run to Winco today.  I'll take a pic of the label.  They always have BBs, so I'll check that label also. 

I don't dry brine my Hormel ribs as a result of the saline solution.  I also go very light on the rub, which is what I prefer anyway.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> Yes they do.  Might even be higher than 2%.  I've got to run to Winco today.  I'll take a pic of the label.  They always have BBs, so I'll check that label also.
> 
> I don't dry brine my Hormel ribs as a result of the saline solution.  I also go very light on the rub, which is what I prefer anyway.


I never brine ribs. The only meats I intend to brine at some point are salmon and also a brisket flat I plan to make pastrami from, but I haven't planned when I plan to do either.  Winco is the 2nd store where we do our weekly shopping (the first is Safeway). I don't buy meats at Winco but they often have really good produce cheaper than the chain supermarkets. There are other things we only buy there. 

Do you have a favorite dry rub? I've been using Steven Raichlen's Kansas City Sweet & Smoky as my go-to but I want to try another profile. I've made similar dry rubs and a couple much different. Still hunting for the flavor profile that I'll want to stick with. I haven't tried concocting my own because I'm not very good at that.


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## noboundaries (Sep 19, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> I never brine ribs. The only meats I intend to brine at some point are salmon and also a brisket flat I plan to make pastrami from, but I haven't planned when I plan to do either.  Winco is the 2nd store where we do our weekly shopping (the first is Safeway). I don't buy meats at Winco but they often have really good produce cheaper than the chain supermarkets. There are other things we only buy there.
> 
> Do you have a favorite dry rub? I've been using Steven Raichlen's Kansas City Sweet & Smoky as my go-to but I want to try another profile. I've made similar dry rubs and a couple much different. Still hunting for the flavor profile that I'll want to stick with. I haven't tried concocting my own because I'm not very good at that.


So interesting.  The meat and veggies I can get at Winco are SOOO much better than ANY of the grocery chains around me (Safeway, Raley's, Bel Air, Food 4 Less, Smart n Final, Grocery Outlet, and Sprouts), saving me a bundle in the process.  Their veggies come pretty close to our farmer's market for flavor.

Favorite rub?  I've tried a bunch.  Here is my current favorite I'm using on pork and chicken these days.  I found the foundation on the Internet and changed it a little to what I like.  I'd only ever used Old Bay for fish.  Read the ingredients for Old Bay, it is PERFECT for pork and chicken.  You could add up to a Tbs of cayenne pepper if you wanted to kick it up a notch.   

*Pork Rub with Old Bay Seasoning*  

*Ingredients*
2 Tbs Dark brown sugar
2 Tbs Paprika, sweet or smoked, your preference
1 Tbs Old Bay seasoning
1 Tbs Kosher salt
1 Tbs chili powder
1 Tbs dry mustard
1/2 Tbs Fresh-ground black pepper
1/4 tsp ground ginger

*Directions*

1. Mix all ingredients in the order shown.  Stir with a spoon, breaking up any clumps.  Store in an airtight container.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

ChileRelleno said:


> I read that too.
> I've messed around with cooking at 275° +/- with the same results.
> It's a give and take, and definitely allows one to bang out some satisfactory BBQ in less time.
> 
> ...


Chile, do you think it makes a difference if the higher cooking temps are done in those big pro offset rig or cabinet smokers or a MES 30 like I have? I just watched an Aaron Franklin BBQing episode where a Texas BBQ place smokes its beef ribs between 300°-330° for 8 hours. I can get over 300° in my MES 30 just by setting the controller to 275° but I've chosen to smoke at lower temps as a matter of preference.

And hey--I just smoked two racks of b-backs in the same temp range--no crutch-- for about 4.5 hours and got the same results! I agree with you; if you have the time, why not?


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## pc farmer (Sep 19, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> Thanks! Now I know a new (to me anyway) term.



Yea.  Sorry for the late reply.

I have also been cooking over a all wood fire at high temps.  

Haven't tried a butt or brisket at high temps.

I do butts under 300°


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> So interesting.  The meat and veggies I can get at Winco are SOOO much better than ANY of the grocery chains around me (Safeway, Raley's, Bel Air, Food 4 Less, Smart n Final, Grocery Outlet, and Sprouts), saving me a bundle in the process.  Their veggies come pretty close to our farmer's market for flavor.
> 
> Favorite rub?  I've tried a bunch.  Here is my current favorite I'm using on pork and chicken these days.  I found the foundation on the Internet and changed it a little to what I like.  I'd only ever used Old Bay for fish.  Read the ingredients for Old Bay, it is PERFECT for pork and chicken.  You could add up to a Tbs of cayenne pepper if you wanted to kick it up a notch.
> 
> ...


You mentioned Raley's and Food 4 Less so I had to check out where you live. Do the Raiders still train there? When we lived in Santa Rosa, the two stores we shopped were Raley's and Food 4 Less. We miss them both but Winco "borrowed" their business plan from F4L, in my opinion. The meats at Winco look like they were butchered by trainees. Winco's produce can be as good or better than Safeway (and a lot cheaper) or on bad days some areas can be embarrassingly bad. But there are many food and dairy items we only buy at Winco because of the better prices.

We never shopped Safeway in those days but in the county where we live now they consistently have the best quality meats outside of Costco, and I've become buddies with the meat dept. and produce dept. managers. We have a Grocery Outlet and a Cash & Carry but shopping two stores in one day is enough for us. There's also Fred Meyer up here which is owned by Kroger. They have very good meats and produce but we still prefer Safeway.

And do you know what you've just done for me? We bought Old Bay a while ago because I wanted to cook up some shellfish Cajun-style but have yet to do it. Thanks to do, I've got a dry rub recipe where I get to use it. The meat guy at the Safeway in town is able to get me fresh farmed catfish out of South Carolina--unless Irma has mucked around there. I think this rub will taste great on it. When I finally smoke this 12 lb. turkey I've got in the freezer I'll try it then.  Do you use it also on all cuts of pork? Just looking at the recipe I'm not sure about ribs but pork shoulder and pork loin are definitely in play.

Just re-read the recipe. One-half tablespoon of freshly-ground black pepper? That seems like a lot of pepper. But at any rate, we have a manual pepper mill but if it's anything over an 1/8 tsp I have to use store-bought ground black pepper.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

SmokinAl said:


> I've tried both methods too & can find very little difference in the final product, other than the cooking time.
> 
> I had a 9.5 lb. butt in the freezer for about 1 1/2 years & just got it out a few days ago when the hurricane hit. I set it up in my WSM/Guru with the generator running the guru. I started it out at 210 & after 12 hours I set it to 235 to finish it off. It took 22 hours to get done & I never wrapped it, everyone in the neighborhood loved it. I have done that same sized butt in 12 hours at 280 on the Lang with pretty much the same results.
> 
> Al


I just read again what you wrote because I missed the reference to a Lang smoker. I believe that one of the daycare dads (my wife runs a home daycare) her in WA state bought a Lang off craigslist or someplace. It's just a little 36" model but I can attest first hand to how good the Q is that comes out of it.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

Bearcarver said:


> My MES units do 99% of their work below 230°, but mainly because I like to give the extra time for more light smoke.
> 
> The only time I ever went over 250° was the last hour on some Chicken Thighs to crisp up the skin.
> 
> ...


Bear, you know how the controllers work on the MES. Even if I set it for 260°-275° to get the controller up past 235° where I want the set point, it'll still cycle up to 250° during the heating cycle. It's always somewhere in the 3rd hour of smoking or so it seems to settle back down to 235-245°, and there are times when it goes below that. I just don't like to smoke at the higher temps. I posted somewhere else that I watched an Aaron Franklin video on beef ribs and the pitmaster in Texas said how he smokes them between 300°-330°. I think I'll give that a try since when I set my MES to 275° it actually goes as least as high as 315° during the heating cycle. That's the reading on my ET-733.


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2017)

c farmer said:


> Yea. Sorry for the late reply.
> 
> I have also been cooking over a all wood fire at high temps.
> 
> ...


If I had the place to store a stick burner I'd love to own one. But I have a MES 30 Gen 1 and officially the top temp is 275° but you can get higher temps out of it. Almost all my smoking recipes call for smoking temps between 225°-250°. I usually park it at around 235° from when I was a big Ray Lampe fan. In the cookbook of his that I bought that was the temp for just about every recipe of his. But if it snakes up to 240-245° I don't mind.


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## chilerelleno (Sep 19, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> Chile, do you think it makes a difference if the higher cooking temps are done in those big pro offset rig or cabinet smokers or a MES 30 like I have? I just watched an Aaron Franklin BBQing episode where a Texas BBQ place smokes its beef ribs between 300°-330° for 8 hours.


Having never cooked on rigs like those, nor having cooked those cuts at those temps...  I can't say.
But what I've heard/experienced is that, _'Heat is heat, doesn't matter how you generate it in your smoker, gas, electric, charcoal or wood."_


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## pc farmer (Sep 19, 2017)

My " stick burner " is a 55 gal drum.


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## noboundaries (Sep 19, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> You mentioned Raley's and Food 4 Less so I had to check out where you live. *Do the Raiders still train there? It was the 49'ers out at Sierra Community College. They don't train there anymore.  The Raiders trained up in Napa.  *
> 
> And do you know what you've just done for me? We bought Old Bay a while ago because I wanted to cook up some shellfish Cajun-style but have yet to do it. Thanks to do, I've got a dry rub recipe where I get to use it. *Glad to help!*
> 
> ...


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## chilerelleno (Sep 19, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> *Pork Rub with Old Bay Seasoning*
> 
> *Ingredients*
> 
> ...


I have to ask... Do you really make such a small batch of rub? 

LOL...  The way I sling rub that might do one side of a rack.
I tend to lay it on thick and sloppy, rub off any excess and be messy about it. :biggrin:

My minimum is
1C Brown Sugar
.5C Lawry's Seasoned Salt
1/3C each Paprika, Garlic and Onion powders
To which I might add
1/8C each Black and Cayenne peppers


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## dr k (Sep 19, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> So interesting.  The meat and veggies I can get at Winco are SOOO much better than ANY of the grocery chains around me (Safeway, Raley's, Bel Air, Food 4 Less, Smart n Final, Grocery Outlet, and Sprouts), saving me a bundle in the process.  Their veggies come pretty close to our farmer's market for flavor.
> 
> Favorite rub?  I've tried a bunch.  Here is my current favorite I'm using on pork and chicken these days.  I found the foundation on the Internet and changed it a little to what I like.  I'd only ever used Old Bay for fish.  Read the ingredients for Old Bay, it is PERFECT for pork and chicken.  You could add up to a Tbs of cayenne pepper if you wanted to kick it up a notch.
> 
> ...


This short thread has a great Old Bay simulariy Squib tried further down in the thread. I did the original recipe a few times and leave out MSG and charcoal. Great savory flavor.  Hardboiled eggs to meat and everything in between.  I've been using this a few years. I turn all ingredients to a ground texture to match the others to put in a small holed shaker like for garlic powder. 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137114/poison-or-how-to-kill-them-all-with-the-grill

-Kurt


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## noboundaries (Sep 19, 2017)

ChileRelleno said:


> *I have to ask... Do you really make such a small batch of rub?*
> 
> LOL... The way I sling rub that might do one side of a rack.
> I tend to lay it on thick and sloppy, rub off any excess and be messy about it.
> ...


Has more to do with the containers I have on hand and room in the cabinet.  I measure with the palm of my hand so it might be a little different, but I've followed my own recipe and it tastes the same.


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


> Yes they do.  Might even be higher than 2%.  I've got to run to Winco today.  I'll take a pic of the label.  They always have BBs, so I'll check that label also.
> 
> I don't dry brine my Hormel ribs as a result of the saline solution.  I also go very light on the rub, which is what I prefer anyway.


I don't brine ribs anyway and I never buy any pork products with that added solution because part of the price per pound I'm paying is for that briny stuff. It just adds to the profit for the meatpacking company and it really isn't needed. That's why I was happy to see a few years that apparently Costco had told Swift Premium to leave it out of the pork meats it shipped to Costco warehouses. I'm still working on how much rub I apply. I want the flavor from the rub but sometimes in the smoker or on the grill the rub isn't fully absorbed into the meat so it creates a drier, grainy texture and taste where it didn't fully dissolve.


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## Rings Я Us (Sep 20, 2017)

Did someone say they felt that pork butt or brisket was hurried in a slow cooker? [emoji]129299[/emoji]


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


>


Should've trusted my memory because I had thought that was Roseville's claim to fame back in the '80s and 


Noboundaries said:


> Has more to do with the containers I have on hand and room in the cabinet.  I measure with the palm of my hand so it might be a little different, but I've followed my own recipe and it tastes the same.


Your method of measuring is impressive. I need measuring spoons and cups. With some spices I can eyeball it but I'm a measuring guy and I like to be exact...unless I decided to alter the proportions of some of the ingredients. We keep our pantry stocked with everything I need for my favorite rubs and for the Asian dishes I cook up in my wok, and for the dishes my wife makes. We're both avid home cooks.


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Rings R Us said:


> Did someone say they felt that pork butt or brisket was hurried in a slow cooker? [emoji]129299[/emoji]


I haven't yet read all the comments but I don't think so. The topic here is based on the ThermoWorks article I linked to. They tested smoking a pork shoulder/butt at 225° and in another smoker at 300° and compared the differences. I think I mentioned that when I use a slow cooker I prefer it on Low. I will set it to High if I get a late start so that it finishes in time for dinner.


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Dr K said:


> This short thread has a great Old Bay simulariy Squib tried further down in the thread. I did the original recipe a few times and leave out MSG and charcoal. Great savory flavor. Hardboiled eggs to meat and everything in between. I've been using this a few years. I turn all ingredients to a ground texture to match the others to put in a small holed shaker like for garlic powder.
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137114/poison-or-how-to-kill-them-all-with-the-grill
> 
> -Kurt


This looks great. We have every ingredient in our pantry except for the activated charcoal, which I would also leave out. So now I've got at least three new dry rubs to try out of this thread deal. Score!


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

c farmer said:


> My " stick burner " is a 55 gal drum.


I've heard of those. Did you build it or buy it?


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

ChileRelleno said:


> I have to ask... Do you really make such a small batch of rub?
> 
> LOL... The way I sling rub that might do one side of a rack.
> I tend to lay it on thick and sloppy, rub off any excess and be messy about it.
> ...


ONE QUARTER CUP OF BOTH BLACK AND CAYENNE PEPPERS????? My wife would be game enough to try one bite of something made with that rub, declare it way too hot, and then would find something else to eat for dinner.


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## Rings Я Us (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm thinking if doing some stuff this winter on the ECB for a few hours smoke and finish in the slow cooker like the next day while I'm at work. Should be good stuff.. just not the same bark.


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Noboundaries said:


>





Noboundaries said:


>


I should have trusted my memory about the '9ers. I thought that back in the '80s and '90s they were Roseville's main claim to fame. But I looked at a site with a history of the '9ers training camps and Roseville wasn't listed. That's why I then thought it had to have been the Raiders. So thanks for setting me straight on that. 

*I grind up peppercorns in a blender.  Works like a charm. *Duh, the obvious answer. I have never thought of that, and we have plenty of gadgets to handle that, including my mortar and pestle. So here's another way you've been a help to me! 

How many people do you cook for? 12 pounds of spareribs is a lot of ribs. The b-backs I buy weigh in about 3 lbs. per rack. I just smoked a pork loin a few weeks ago but I've got some pork shoulder in the freezer. There's been a few other recipes given in this thread. I'm kind of planning to BBQ some beef ribs and then a small whole turkey. The pork shoulder will follow after those. The problem with pork shoulder in our house is that I enjoy making smoked pulled pork while my wife slow cooks killer carnitas. Yeah, we could do both at the same time but honestly she makes carnitas more often than I do the smoked pulled pork.


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## daricksta (Sep 20, 2017)

Rings R Us said:


> I'm thinking if doing some stuff this winter on the ECB for a few hours smoke and finish in the slow cooker like the next day while I'm at work. Should be good stuff.. just not the same bark.


I actually had to look up what an ECB is. Turns out my mother-in-law had one of those years ago. At that time I was a bit intimidated by smoking and never asked her if I could use it. But isn't it similar to the WSM? When you add wood chunks it should smoke up with some nice bark but then the slow cooker would soften it up. So you're right about "just not the same bark". Did you see Jeff's article on his recommended ECB mods?


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## Rings Я Us (Sep 20, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> I actually had to look up what an ECB is. Turns out my mother-in-law had one of those years ago. At that time I was a bit intimidated by smoking and never asked her if I could use it. But isn't it similar to the WSM? When you add wood chunks it should smoke up with some nice bark but then the slow cooker would soften it up. So you're right about "just not the same bark". Did you see Jeff's article on his recommended ECB mods?



I did most all the mods and then some, yep.. I get 15 hours on a load of charcoal .  Can run 100 to 500 temps


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## chilerelleno (Sep 20, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> ChileRelleno said:
> 
> 
> > I have to ask... Do you really make such a small batch of rub?
> ...


Oops, yep that's a brainfarted/typo.
Thanks, it's supposed to be 1/8C or 2.5T to be exact.


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## sqwib (Sep 20, 2017)

I have done this experiment myself. Bare in mind this is on a stickburner.

The Sacrificial Picnic

And to be quite honest I could never tell a difference from a 225-250 butt/picnic compared to a 275+ cook

Everything breaks down fine, however in more extreme temp variations I can see this being true. Now, on Ribs, I think they benefit much more to run them at a lower temp.

I haven't done enough Briskets or Chucks to say for sure if this is the case for them as well. But I think Briskets should be run low and slow if possible.

I notice more of a difference in textures of ribs and Butts/Picnics when foiling, more so with the ribs.

When you foil the ribs you change the texture of the meat significantly, this has been my results anyhow. I find that folks looking for "fall off the bones" ribs like to foil.

I have also experimented with fresh pork and frozen pork with unscientific testing and actually favored the frozen pork as being more tender, I have no idea why.

I would be more prone to cook at a lower temp when using a crockpot, I have noticed pretty extreme differences in foods cooked at higher temps, such as tougher and stringier as the article you referenced points out.

Now a pressure cooker defies all of this.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 20, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> Bear, you know how the controllers work on the MES. Even if I set it for 260°-275° to get the controller up past 235° where I want the set point, it'll still cycle up to 250° during the heating cycle. It's always somewhere in the 3rd hour of smoking or so it seems to settle back down to 235-245°, and there are times when it goes below that. I just don't like to smoke at the higher temps. I posted somewhere else that I watched an Aaron Franklin video on beef ribs and the pitmaster in Texas said how he smokes them between 300°-330°. I think I'll give that a try since when I set my MES to 275° it actually goes as least as high as 315° during the heating cycle. That's the reading on my ET-733.


The only time any of my MES ever got to over 300° is on the initial start-up, and if I don't do anything about it, maybe 1 or 2 cycles more.

And even that is only if I set it for 275° which after break-in is next to never.

Bear


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## daricksta (Sep 21, 2017)

Bearcarver said:


> The only time any of my MES ever got to over 300° is on the initial start-up, and if I don't do anything about it, maybe 1 or 2 cycles more.
> 
> And even that is only if I set it for 275° which after break-in is next to never.
> 
> Bear


I thought I read in the past where you (or it could have been Kurt "Dr. K") advising to set the controller to 275° so that when the controller passed the desired setpoint, the heating cycle would shut down when the temp was lowered to where you actually wanted it to be. Probably not a very good description but it seems I read it somewhere. I still don't understand much of how those controllers work. I typically keep it around 235°-245°. The controller always stabilizes somewhere between the 2nd-3rd hour of smoking. My MES 30 has been very reliable this past year.


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## dr k (Sep 21, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> I thought I read in the past where you (or it could have been Kurt "Dr. K") advising to set the controller to 275° so that when the controller passed the desired setpoint, the heating cycle would shut down when the temp was lowered to where you actually wanted it to be. Probably not a very good description but it seems I read it somewhere. I still don't understand much of how those controllers work. I typically keep it around 235°-245°. The controller always stabilizes somewhere between the 2nd-3rd hour of smoking. My MES 30 has been very reliable this past year.


Bear made the recommendation to set the controller lower and when it shut off and coasted up to the desired temp then reset  the controller to that temp, using your Mav for actual temp but setting the controller accordingly. With my configuration for even temps, left to right, my mes averages 260*f when the controller is maxed at 275*f and has the shortest over coasting and under coasting so I'm +/- 5*f. That's my new set it and forget whether I wrap or not. I'm doing a 9lb. Pork shoulder and will wing it on wrapping depending on stalling when averaging 260*f. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Sep 21, 2017)

Dr K said:


> Bear made the recommendation to set the controller lower and when it shut off and coasted up to the desired temp then reset the controller to that temp, using your Mav for actual temp but setting the controller accordingly. With my configuration for even temps, left to right, my mes averages 260*f when the controller is maxed at 275*f and has the shortest over coasting and under coasting so I'm +/- 5*f. That's my new set it and forget whether I wrap or not. I'm doing a 9lb. Pork shoulder and will wing it on wrapping depending on stalling when averaging 260*f.
> -Kurt


So, as par for the course I reversed what Bear had advised. But then my experience with my MES controller and my Mav is the opposite. Yes, if I desire a set point of 235°F and set it there or lower, the controller will coast up way beyond that. and hang around there for awhile unless I lower the controller even further. Then it will coast down to where or _below _where I want it (all per my ET-733) then I have to adjust it upward again. The two probes (if I have both clipped to different racks on opposite sides of the smoker) will vary in temp by up to 20° or so until about 3 hours or so into the smoke and then the readings are either the same or within =/- 5 degrees of each other. This happens with every smoke.

Often I have to set the controller about 10-20 degrees below where I want it to get the set point I want. Late in the smoke the temp will descend down to there so I have to boost it up a bit. The temp might then rise a bit above where I want it but then it always settles back down to the set point or within a few degrees of it. So that's why I usually state that I smoked something at a temp between 235°-250°, although an upper temp range of 242-245° would be more accurate. As I've written before, I only boost it to 250° if I'm worried about whatever I'm smoking being done too late for dinner that night and want to shorten the time remaining.


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## jokensmoken (Sep 21, 2017)

I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas.  And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
When everything was set to go about ten days prior to the event I was inquiring where they wanted me to set up (they were pretty insistent on smoking on premises) and said I'd be in the day before with my equipment.
Suddenly early access became an issue and I was forced to figure out how to do everything from set up to serving in 12 hours which meant an 8-9 hour smoke time.
Long story short, following the advice of many hot and fast guys on this forum, Cliff Carter specifically...It came together perfectly...I went with my MB 40XL propane with a pellet tube and finished six butts in the 
9lb range in 8.5 hours at 280°F
They were exceptional, pulled easily and I couldn't tell any difference...I've since done a side by side at my own party where folks have come to expect top notch BBQ...
Two butts nearly identical in every way...both smoked on similar bullet smokers with charcoal and Apple and pecan chunks.  One smoked at 230° for 14 hours one at 280° for about 9 hours...both pulled when probe tender (basically repeating the experiment) and no one knew the difference...
Same experiment...different taste test results...
And I've had the experience of hotter and faster being indistinguishable on multiple occasions now.
I'm not trying to discredit the "scientific" results but on the other hand I trust my expertise on at least pulled pork as much as anyone's and personal results suggest differently.  There's really nothing "scientific" about a taste test...there were no scientific measurements done on the finished product.
Just saying IMHO the difference isn't distinguishable and there are many that agree.

Walt


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## Bearcarver (Sep 21, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
> Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas. And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
> For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
> This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
> ...


Hi Walt,

Actually I'm not entirely sure I would consider 280° to be Hot & Fast, even though your 280° was 5 hours shorter than the 230°.

I think those who do the "Hot & Fast" Smokes on a regular basis are using a higher heat than 280°, like in the 300+ Range.

Just my 2 Piastres,

Bear


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## Rings Я Us (Sep 21, 2017)

Was reading a recipe for chef John's pulled pork one day. Used a Dutch oven to roast it in the oven at 210°. 4# butt. 12 hours he said.


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## daricksta (Sep 22, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> I read the same article...I found it this spring when time constraints forced me to try something new.
> Ive been smoking butts for pulling since 1990 when I got my first ECB for Christmas. And always followed the conventional low and slow (220°250° till it's done) wisdom.
> For the last several years I've become a popular go to guy in our community for smoking for graduations, reunions, fund raisers and lake parties so the number of butts I smoke can now exceed 20 a season.
> This spring I agreed to smoke six butts for a fund raiser.
> ...


Thanks for this, Walt. The article did say that that the differences were slight. I  think it comes down to personal tastes and how sensitive they are to changes in textures. I know I've seen recipes in BBQ cookbooks that called for smoking at 300°. If I get meats like beef briskets or pork shoulders in early enough, I don't mind it taking them 12+ hours to cook because I'm home anyway. I will raise the temp if I need to hurry up the smoke so the meat will be ready for dinner at a decent time (before 8:30 pm).


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