# Lonzino with UMAI Bags



## link (Nov 7, 2016)

I have been wanting to make a curing chamber for a while now but I am not getting lucky finding an upright freezer that I can use. So I have seen the UMAI bags and been looking at them and though what the hell let me give them a try. So I ordered the small charcuterie set and got a Lonnzino going. I followed this:
[h3]*LONZINO, AIR CURED PORK LOIN*[/h3]
All lonzino is is air-cured pork loin, a lean cut that cures easily if you follow these directions. It is best served as is, although it makes a great sandwich. You could also dice it as a substitute for any of the Spanish ham recipes that call for diced Serrano ham (and there are a lot of them). It is silky, only a little salty, and you get a hint of the spices that help cure the meat with every bite. This is a subtle meat.

_Makes a 1 1/2 pound cured lonzino_.

Prep Time: 24 days

Cook Time: n/a

A 3 pound piece of whole pork loin or boar loin
60 grams kosher salt
15 grams sugar
6 grams InstaCure No. 2, also known as Prague Cure No. 2
10 grams black pepper
5 grams garlic powder
5 grams ground cloves
10 grams onion powder
8 grams dried thyme
 I bagged this up on Friday and I am now in the waiting stage. If you have used these bags I would love to here your take on them.

thanks for looking.

Link

After 14 day cure













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UMAI Kit













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Sealed up (double seal just in case)













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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 7, 2016)

Should be tasty. I'll hang around for the finish.


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## SmokinAl (Nov 8, 2016)

Very interested to see how this turns out.

I want to make pepperoni with the UMAI bags.

Al


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## bdskelly (Nov 8, 2016)

This is the first time I've seen the UMAI "kit" . Looks like a lot of fun!  Watching this one closely. B


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## link (Nov 8, 2016)

The Kit came with:

         UMAi Dry[emoji]174[/emoji] 8" x 18" 2 pieces
_     Suitable for 6-8 lbs. of meat_
         UMAi Dry[emoji]174[/emoji] 10" x 11" 3 pieces 
_     Suitable for 4-5 lbs. of meat_
        VacMouse[emoji]174[/emoji] - 5 pieces
        6 tsps. InstaCure #2 
_    Enough to cure 30 lbs. of meat_
        0.5 oz. Juniper berries
I had already cured the meat so I did not use the items but now want to do something with the Juniper berries. Cannot wait to see how it comes out.

Link


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## disco (Nov 10, 2016)

I'm in! 

Disco


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## BGKYSmoker (Nov 10, 2016)

Looks good, i'm sure you will have a nice Lonzino.


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## bdskelly (Nov 10, 2016)

Disco said:


> I'm in!
> 
> Disco


Interesting isn't it Disco?  Anything with the word "kit" in is fascinating to me.  Perhaps its because I am inherently lazy. b


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## petewoody (Nov 10, 2016)

I notice you used 6 grams of Cure #2 for 3 (three) pounds of meat. Using at the recommended rate, I would have used 3.405 grams which would be 156 parts per million. 6 grams would give 275 ppm. Cure # 2 is used at a rate of 1 teaspoon per 5 pounds of muscle meat and you have used more than a teaspoon for 3 pounds. Perhaps someone could check my math.


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## bmudd14474 (Nov 10, 2016)

I have used the UMAI Dry Aging bags and they work great.


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## disco (Nov 11, 2016)

BDSkelly said:


> Interesting isn't it Disco?  Anything with the word "kit" in is fascinating to me.  Perhaps its because I am inherently lazy. b


I'm with you. I have been reading about these kits for awhile and this thread will be great to see how they go.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 11, 2016)

Very Interesting!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Gotta Watch this one!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 11, 2016)

Petewoody said:


> I notice you used 6 grams of Cure #2 for 3 (three) pounds of meat. Using at the recommended rate, I would have used 3.405 grams which would be 156 parts per million. 6 grams would give 275 ppm. Cure # 2 is used at a rate of 1 teaspoon per 5 pounds of muscle meat and you have used more than a teaspoon for 3 pounds. Perhaps someone could check my math.


Yes I was wondering the same thing.


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## link (Nov 11, 2016)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> Yes I was wondering the same thing.


I was just following the what was provided in the reciepe provided. Is this going to be bad?


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 11, 2016)

link said:


> I was just following the what was provided in the reciepe provided. Is this going to be bad?


The recipe on Umai website calls for the standard 1 teaspoon per 5 pounds of meat. So I'm not sure why they'd state something different in the recipe that comes in the kit.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 11, 2016)

Maybe @DaveOmak Will chime in.


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## daveomak (Nov 11, 2016)

Petewoody is correct on the proper application rates... 

Good morning.....  I saw that...   The only thing I can think of is....    Some folks "think" adding more cure will speed up the curing process... (not true)...    You find the "too much" cure #1 or #2 on the web, on U-Tube and "wanna be" "Go-To" curing masters all over the place....  Including some well known authors/experts...

Maybe they are following "hand me down" recipes or recipes that were written prior to the USDA doing a thorough investigation on what was "minimally" adequate, and what would be acceptable including a small amount for a safety buffer or what ever they were thinking... 

I don't know...    I wasn't there...  Having worked in a laboratory for 27 years, I can only surmise what their goal was, keeping food safety in mind I'm guessing...

Sodium Nitrite can be added to meat at a rate of "up to" 625 Ppm nitrite in SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS, outlined in the FSIS handbook..  That method is not one that is used on this forum.. 

The nitrite will dissipate over time, and also will breakdown with heat...  soooo, that leaves room for considerable "discussion"....

Maybe @Wade will give his opinion about this situation...


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## daveomak (Nov 11, 2016)

I'm back......   I am watching the Lonzino U-Tube UMAI flick....   they have a 5.1 # loin, trimmed to ~ 4#'s or so, and they added 1 tsp. of cure #2.....  

I don't know why they used cure #2...  sodium nitrate does no good at refrigerator temps...  It needs active bacteria to break down the nitrate into nitrite...  When using nitrate, recommended temps are around 50 deg. F so the bacteria can grow and break down the nitrate...   then continue to do it's job for months while hanging in an acceptable temp/humidity atmosphere..

Those are my thoughts....  I could be wrong...  been before... will be again...   AND now you know everything I know......


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 11, 2016)

Most of Umai's recipes calls for cure #2. Hmmmmm.


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## link (Nov 11, 2016)

The UMAi KIT came with #2 cure but the recipe above I used was not from UMAi. This is something From another site I found and thought I would try.

Just wanted to make it clear UMAi did not get this wrong.

I guess I will have to see once this is done. I have not weighed the Lonzino since I bagged it.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 11, 2016)

link said:


> The UMAi KIT came with #2 cure but the recipe above I used was not from UMAi. This is something From another site I found and thought I would try.
> 
> Just wanted to make it clear UMAi did not get this wrong.
> 
> I guess I will have to see once this is done. I have not weighed the Lonzino since I bagged it.



So where did it come from?


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## daveomak (Nov 11, 2016)

http://honest-food.net/2008/02/18/gird-your-loins-lonzino/

The coolest thing about lonzino is how easy and relatively quickly you can make it. Unlike prosciutto, which takes more than a year, lonzino can be ready in a month.

The only special equipment you need is curing salt and a cool place to hang your loins. You can get curing salt, *Instacure No. 2[/u]*  online, and your hanging place can be anywhere that isn’t bone dry (70 to 80 percent humidity is good) and is anywhere from 40°F to 60°F.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hunter, Angler, Gardener, Cook..   That's the name of the blog...   Someone else used a recipe from there a few weeks ago and it had some stuff incorrect....   At least the instacure #2 is paired with the correct temps in the blog...  40-60 Deg. F...

Everyone pay attention...  these blog folks don't know stuff...   they print to make money and followers...    Anywho...  points for getting the temp right....   BUT, the first 2 weeks need to be ~38 deg. F... then you can put it in the cellar at  50 deg. F...   for 6 months or so....


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## bdskelly (Nov 11, 2016)

Confused here.  The wife says it doesn't take much to do that...

Dave.

Straighten me out Ol' Buddy  This kit has the wrong pink stuff and bad instructions? 

b


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## pc farmer (Nov 11, 2016)

BDSkelly said:


> Confused here.  The wife says it doesn't take much to do that...
> Dave.
> Straighten me out Ol' Buddy  This kit has the wrong pink stuff and bad instructions?
> b



I ain't Dave, but the kit is fine as well as the instructions in the kit.

He followed instructions from somewhere else that was wrong


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## bdskelly (Nov 11, 2016)

c farmer said:


> I ain't Dave, but the kit is fine as well as the instructions in the kit.
> 
> He followed instructions from somewhere else that was wrong


Gracias Adam...


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## link (Nov 11, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> http://honest-food.net/2008/02/18/gird-your-loins-lonzino/
> 
> The coolest thing about lonzino is how easy and relatively quickly you can make it. Unlike prosciutto, which takes more than a year, lonzino can be ready in a month.
> 
> ...


Dave nailed it. This was the recipe I followed from Honest Food. So is this unsafe at this point Dave?


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## daveomak (Nov 12, 2016)

link, morning....  I don't believe it is unsafe considering how it is intended to be eaten.....   the amount of cure is way a little high...  3#'s meat and 6 tsp. grams of cure   ...    6 tsp. grams  cures 30   5.5 #'s of meat properly...  instead of 150 Ppm nitrite you've got close to 1500  275 Ppm nitrite + whatever nitrate is in it..

Sliced very thin and enjoyed like it cost you $40 #...  You won't get a bunch of nitrites in your system....

Another alternative is to hang it to age much longer...  in a ~50 deg. F area with ~70-80% humidity, (a saturated salt solution in a shallow pan will do that) , and hang for many months will deplete the nitrite in the meat and the nitrate will take over keeping it safe...    If you try that, may I suggest you spray the outside of the meat with mold 600 to form a very safe white mold covering on the meat to prevent bad molds from taking over...  You can order and purchase mold 600 or you can buy some salami that is covered in it and scrape some off and apply it to your meat... 

The white mold should take over and grow..  not exactly sure if anything else has to be done to treat the surface...  maybe some distilled water to wet the surface so the mold adheres... 

It's probably not worth all that trouble, but the experience and learning process will be well worth it... especially when the meat has properly aged for many months and you can experience the awesome flavor and texture folks rave over....

EDITED to fix my misread stuff.....


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 12, 2016)

Dave,

He used 6g not 6tsp (275ppm). The cure used is not even double the amount recommended. Some published authors have recipes with higher cure amounts. 

Link,
In my opinion it's safe to eat. I agree with Dave. Don't dry it at fridge temps. Do you have a cold room, garage that is around 50 this time of the year?
This forum is the best for cures.Trust it over published books, websites, friends, etc. Check here first before you start the next project.


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## daveomak (Nov 12, 2016)

Thanks Atomic....   Boy O Boy I can sure screw stuff up at times....    It's a good thing there are folks smart enough to check up on me... 

Appreciate the proof read.... 

Yep...   it's safe...   Sorry about the confusion...   My humble apologies for the unforced errors....


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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 12, 2016)

atomicsmoke said:


> Dave,
> 
> He used 6g not 6tsp (275ppm). The cure used is not even double the amount recommended. Some published authors have recipes with higher cure amounts.
> 
> ...






DaveOmak said:


> Thanks Atomic....   Boy O Boy I can sure screw stuff up at times....    It's a good thing there are folks smart enough to check up on me...
> Appreciate the proof read....
> 
> Yep...   it's safe...   Sorry about the confusion...   My humble apologies for the unforced errors....




So the problem I see here is Link used a recipe for a traditional dry cure, in a non-traditional format. With the Umai bags you have to cure in the fridge. 

Are you saying he should take the meat out of the bag and hang to dry? What if all he has is the fridge to accomplish the required temps and humidity. Can he continue with the meat in the Umaii bag in the fridge?


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## daveomak (Nov 12, 2016)

Morning Dirt....  It's my understanding, the aging process at 50 deg. F, promotes bacteria to break down the meat and subsequently attain a richness that can only be found in that process... 

If the meat has lost an "adequate" amount of moisture while in the fridge, and there is adequate salt, (around 2.7% ish, when the process started), then the continued aging process at 50 deg. F is fine...  It is also my understanding, the UMAI dry bag is basically a synthetic replacement for natural casings...   bungs, middles etc...    A protective layer that allows for very slow dehydration...    Charcuterie of the money muscle, as an example, is started in the refer for a few weeks for initial bacterial control.. ., then moved to an environment for continued aging... 

Marianski on coppa....

Add the cure, salt and spices...  place in zip bag for 7 days in refer...   rerub the butt with the remaining cure stuff and continue in the refer for 10 days...  rinse, add more spices, dry for 3 hours in the refer then stuff in a bung or collagen casings... prick to remove air pockets... Hang and hold for 21 days at around 55 deg. F, 70% humidity to dry and mature...  DO NOT go over 59Deg. F...   It is OK to cold smoke anytime below 65 deg. F...  I would stay below 59 F.....

Looking at the 2 methods...   I don't see a problem intermixing the drying processes...  end results are the same...   As long as the UMAI bag is still tight, one might continue to use it as a bung replacement...  even spraying a mold 600 on the surface to prevent bad mold from taking over..   Evan Brady used pig skin as a barrier on some of his charcuterie..   I think the primary requirement is permeability...   He did poke thousands of holes in the pig skin with a sausage pricker, if I remember correctly...













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## dirtsailor2003 (Nov 12, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Morning Dirt....  It's my understanding, the aging process at 50 deg. F, promotes bacteria to break down the meat and subsequently attain a richness that can only be found in that process...
> If the meat has lost an "adequate" amount of moisture while in the fridge, and there is adequate salt, (around 2.7% ish, when the process started), then the continued aging process at 50 deg. F is fine...  It is also my understanding, the UMAI dry bag is basically a synthetic replacement for natural casings...   bungs, middles etc...    A protective layer that allows for very slow dehydration...    Charcuterie of the money muscle, as an example, is started in the refer for a few weeks for initial bacterial control.. ., then moved to an environment for continued aging...
> 
> Marianski on coppa....
> ...



Dave I guess what I'm trying to say is Umai's directions for using their bags say to keep in the fridge during the entire process. You are saying to not keep in the fridge.


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 12, 2016)

Drying in the fridge will work. The bag will keep the moisture loss in check (fridge being a dry environment unlike a curing chamber). However the low fridge temp will not allow much bacterial activity specific to great dried meats. Having said that...conversion of nitrate to nitrite is not nailed down process for us, amateur charcuterie-sts. We don't know who much of the nitrate is converted to nitrite even at 50-55F.


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## daveomak (Nov 12, 2016)

If they recommend cure #2, I'm saying, "I think is *permissible* to continue drying at 50 with ~70% humidity until a drying stage and aging stage has been achieved to your liking.."   of course that's after the initial refer time to control pathogens has been achieved...

Marianski recommends ~17 days in a zip bag with 2 curing rubs..   17 days or longer in an UMAI bag is basically the same with the meat getting some additional drying...  

I'm going out on a limb here saying....  UMAI's directions are for folks that only have a fridge and don't want to be "bothered", for lack of a better term, to age hanging in a basement or closet while waiting for the finished product in weeks or months...  

Same deal with curing and smoking...  I prefer a full month to do my bacon from start to finish...   some folks like 7-10 days...

IMO, UMAI bags are to get folks involved in charcuterie without the hassle of bungs, temp/moisture controlled systems etc..

My MES 30 relieved me from the hassle of splitting wood and watching over a fire in a smokehouse for days on end...  I'm not going back to the wood splitting and days in the smokehouse...  The MES does just fine...

Anyway, I thought I would point out an alternative finishing process that to me, seemed doable.....


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## wade (Nov 13, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Maybe @Wade will give his opinion about this situation...
> 
> link, morning....  I don't believe it is unsafe considering how it is intended to be eaten.....   the amount of cure is way  a little high...  3#'s meat and 6 tsp. grams of cure   ...    6 tsp. grams  cures  5.5 #'s of meat properly...  instead of 150 Ppm nitrite you've got close to 275 Ppm nitrite + whatever nitrate is in it..
> 
> ...


I agree with you Dave - It will be safe to eat, especially as air cured meat like this is only usually eaten in relatively small amounts.

I bought a selection of UMAI bag sizes a year or so ago but have not got round to trying them yet. I am following this thread with interest.


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## link (Nov 16, 2016)

Thank you everyone for commenting on this topic. The meat started at 3.3 lbs and is now at 2.1 lbs after being in the UMAi bag for 2 weeks. If my calculation is correct that is about 36% weight loss If I am wrong please chime in and say how to calculate this correctly).  

I have not sliced it yet as I have been out in the woods for the last five days hunting (did not get a deer) so I will cut this up soon and post a picture. 

I have learned from this that is for sure. Always check the numbers someone gives you yourself as they may be off. For my next attempt I will follow the instructions that came with the UMAI bags instead of starting one thing and finishing with another.

Again thanks for sharing all of your knowledge with me.

Link


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## petewoody (Nov 16, 2016)

Link, your math is correct. The quickest I have had that type of weight loss was 3 weeks. It usually takes 4 to 5 weeks. I would leave it in the Umai bag for another week as I'm sure the rate of drying has slowed. The outside should have dried and hardened somewhat but I'd guess the inside could do with more time. Pete


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## link (Nov 21, 2016)

Ok so I sliced a bit of this up on Sunday and it came out pretty good. It has a really good flavor. I may continue to dry half of it and see if it gets better. the rest I will cut up for a meat/smoked cheese tray for Thanksgiving.

In UMAi Bag













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Cross Serction













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Sliced Thin













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Can see light through it!













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I learned a lot from you guys on this one and will never just follow a recipe without confirming measurements first.

Thanks for looking.

Link


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## pc farmer (Nov 21, 2016)

Looks pretty good.

What weight loss did you pull it at?

I am finding I like mine in the 40+ weight loss.


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## link (Nov 21, 2016)

It was at 2.1 lbs when I cut it. it started at 3.2 lbs so that is a little more than 34%. 

I think i would agree that 40% sounds good. Next time I will shoot for this. I want to do this with beef next.


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## pc farmer (Nov 21, 2016)

link said:


> It was at 2.1 lbs when I cut it. it started at 3.2 lbs so that is a little more than 34%.
> 
> I think i would agree that 40% sounds good. Next time I will shoot for this. I want to do this with beef next.



Heres a bressola I just pulled.



43% loss and it could have went longer.


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## link (Nov 21, 2016)

That looks great! how is the taste? You hang these right? Did you build your own curing chamber? That is what I want to do.

Sorry for all the questions.


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## bdskelly (Nov 21, 2016)

Nice job Link. Looks delicious! Point! 

b


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## link (Nov 26, 2016)

One more shot. Lonzino sliced thin on top of a smoked deviled egg. What a combination.













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