# Too clean of a fire?



## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

I have a feeling I will get some mixed answers with this one, but here goes.

I recently went with a friend to help him pick up a smoker that was custom built. The price was right, the build quality is good, and it was the size he needed for his small patio.

We did a test run on it and we were very, very impressed with how well it held temp, how clean the smoke was, just thin blue to almost invisible, and with how well the temperature responded to the vents.

So we put a pork but on, used hickory and cherry splits, charcoal only in the beginning to light the splits. It sat in a bath of light blue smoke for 8 hours until we had to wrap and then after wrapping it went on the pellet grill. When on the pellet grill, somehow the two layers of foil still managed to break and all the liquid leaked out.

The pork butt had a nice smoke ring, everything looked good, but when tasting there was little to no smoke flavor. If I hadn't witnessed it in the smoker I would have thought it was cooked in an oven.

I have 2 theories to what happened:

Either the splits we were using were too small or two dry and they did not produce enough smoke or turned to coals too quickly. Or that the fire was hot enough that on a smoker this size the hot air leaving was just that, hot air and no smoke, because it didn't have enough room to cool in the cook chamber.

Or theory number two is that smoke is attracted to moisture and when the juices leaked out of the wrap some of the smoky flavor got lost in the juice. This may be a stupid theory, but I'm left scratching my head.

To be fair I have an offset at home as well, and I usually get a bold smoke flavor on mine. Mine is a little bigger than his, and I usually struggle to burn as clean of a fire as he did, but I have never gotten what people describe as bitter smoke from my pit. My fire is never perfect and white smoke occasionally comes out but I try to do the best I can.

I'm hoping those with more experience can help out here. I was thinking our next step would be to try a little larger split to see if we can get a little longer burn before it turns to coals.

Also, we had a moisture meter and the splits were reading anywhere from 15-20% moisture, so I don't think the wood was over dried.

I'm stumped.


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## smokerjim (Jul 16, 2021)

thats a cool looking smoker, did you try the pork a day later, could be you were just around the smoke to long, just a thought. like ya mentioned try bigger splits, did you run the stack open fully, maybe try running half open if so. just another thought maybe your adding wood to soon to the fire.


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

smokerjim said:


> thats a cool looking smoker, did you try the pork a day later, could be you were just around the smoke to long, just a thought. like ya mentioned try bigger splits, did you run the stack open fully, maybe try running half open if so. just another thought maybe your adding wood to soon to the fire.



Yes, we tried it a day later and it was no better. Even my wife who wasn't around the smoker couldn't taste much.

We ran the stack mostly half open, sometimes a little more or little less to adjust temp. There aren't any good dampers on the firebox side at the moment, but the digital thermometer did read that the exhaust damper was effective and didn't choke off the fire

Was far as adding wood to soon we waited for logs to burn down into coal and we would throw another on. Maybe that is too soon?


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

For a reference too, our splits were smaller than what I am used to using. They were about 2 inches thick and 6-8 inches long. My friend was really concerned about burning a clean fire and that size split didn't take much to catch. Maybe are logs are just way too small?


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## normanaj (Jul 16, 2021)

2" thick and 6"-8" long. That's kindling basically.


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## smokerjim (Jul 16, 2021)

sounds like that could be the problem, they probably really aren't smoldering that much, i was going to mention maybe add more wood and choke down the fire to where it will smolder more rather then a clean burning fire. it's been years since i ran my offset to i'm just throwing out some ideas i'm sure some of the more knowledgeable people will be around.


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## smokeymose (Jul 16, 2021)

JBinGB said:


> For a reference too, our splits were smaller than what I am used to using. They were about 2 inches thick and 6-8 inches long. My friend was really concerned about burning a clean fire and that size split didn't take much to catch. Maybe are logs are just way too small?


I think you nailed it right there. They're burning up instead of smoldering/smoking.
If you back off your vents, though, it might let the "fire" go out....


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## thirdeye (Jul 16, 2021)

There may be some heat and smoke flow dynamics at play..... In relation to the location of the cooking grate, where is the upstream end (where the smoke enters the stack) of the stack?  Is it above, at the same level, or below the grate level?     What diameter is the stack?  One rule of thumb I've seen over and over is a stack diameter between 15% and 20% of the pit diameter.  But I've seen a lot of 'big stack' smokers lately, Cen-Tex brand for example. 

Also, can we see an end view of the smoker?  Many will claim that the stack diameter is more important than the height of the stack.  But for example if the stack is too short, the smoker draws too well and can suck heat and smoke out too fast.


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> There may be some heat and smoke flow dynamics at play..... In relation to the location of the cooking grate, where is the upstream end (where the smoke enters the stack) of the stack?  Is it above, at the same level, or below the grate level?     What diameter is the stack?  One rule of thumb I've seen over and over is a stack diameter between 15% and 20% of the pit diameter.  But I've seen a lot of 'big stack' smokers lately, Cen-Tex brand for example.
> 
> Also, can we see an end view of the smoker?  Many will claim that the stack diameter is more important than the height of the stack.  But for example if the stack is too short, the smoker draws too well and can suck heat and smoke out too fast.



I can try and get some pictures. By end are you referring to fire box end?

And the width of the cook chamber is 13", and the stack is about 3" diameter. If my math is right that's around 22% if the diameter. The smoke stack isn't very tall out of the top of the smoker, but it is a grate level inside.


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## thirdeye (Jul 16, 2021)

JBinGB said:


> I can try and get some pictures. *By end are you referring to fire box end?*
> 
> And the width of the cook chamber is 13", and the stack is about 3" diameter. If my math is right that's around 22% if the diameter. The smoke stack isn't very tall out of the top of the smoker, but it is a grate level inside.



No I'm talking about the location where the stack is mounted to the smoker.  Upstream end of the stack is where the smoke and heat in the pit enters the stack.  The downstream end of the stack is where the smoke and heat vents into the air. 

The location of the stack will influence the flow of heat and smoke inside the pit.  Lets say the builder cut a hole in the top of the pit and welded the stack to that.  The heat and smoke would leave the firebox and draft up to the vent, possible missing the meat to some degree.  And if the stack was mounted  at grate level or below.... the heat and smoke should draft lower in the pit before it enters the stack.


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## smokin peachey (Jul 16, 2021)

More pics of the smoker would be helpful firebox, inside firebox, stack and inside the smoker on both ends.  I don’t think it has anything to do with the wood size I’ve smoked cheese with very small pieces of wood before and it worked well. Did you use a water pan or spritz the meat at all?


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## Brokenhandle (Jul 16, 2021)

Just watching... I don't have a clue but curious as to what you figure out! Is a cool looking smoker tho!

Ryan


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## Chasdev (Jul 16, 2021)

You're on the wrong track, clear blue smoke is the holy grail and produces the best tasting meat.
The size of your wood is also close to ideal in that you can micro manage the temps.
Only unknown is if the wood was too dry.
Hit Amazon and buy a moisture meter tool, they start under $40 and will tell the tale.
In fact, you should be testing all the wood you burn if it's not been kiln dried.
Above 25% moisture should be avoided as should under 14% moisture.
Also, if you are going to remove the meat from the smoker, no need to fire up the pellet spitter, just put it in your oven.


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

Chasdev said:


> You're on the wrong track, clear blue smoke is the holy grail and produces the best tasting meat.
> The size of your wood is also close to ideal in that you can micro manage the temps.
> Only unknown is if the wood was too dry.
> Hit Amazon and buy a moisture meter tool, they start under $40 and will tell the tale.
> ...



We have a moisture meter. Splits were between 15-20%


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

smokin peachey said:


> More pics of the smoker would be helpful firebox, inside firebox, stack and inside the smoker on both ends.  I don’t think it has anything to do with the wood size I’ve smoked cheese with very small pieces of wood before and it worked well. Did you use a water pan or spritz the meat at all?



 I will try to get some more detailed pictures


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## jcam222 (Jul 16, 2021)

Chasdev said:


> You're on the wrong track, clear blue smoke is the holy grail and produces the best tasting meat.
> The size of your wood is also close to ideal in that you can micro manage the temps.
> Only unknown is if the wood was too dry.
> Hit Amazon and buy a moisture meter tool, they start under $40 and will tell the tale.
> ...


There are a lot of opinions on this and some would disagree with you. I know that conventional internet wisdom states only TBS or incivislbw smoke is desirable. I believe that on longer smokes with large cuts of meat periods of heavier smoke can be a beneficial. I can generate heavier smoke that is not bitter and often do on purpose for part of a cook. I agree on the moisture range with the caveat the higher end of that range being good for fruit woods.


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## SmokinEdge (Jul 16, 2021)

Wow, advice is all over the board. So I’ll throw in my 0.2 cents.
First off, I am surprised that you are getting that good of draw with that short of a exhaust. Longer exhaust creates more draw.
Next, a wood burning pit should never be fire controlled by the vent on the exhaust. I would like to see the air inlets on the firebox. You always choke the fire at the air inlet, never the exhaust. I would only use the exhaust vent to hold heat in the cooker after the cook is done, or as a rain cap, but never to control pit temp. Run the exhaust wide open.

You need controlled air at the fire grate level, and controlled air in the firebox at roughly the pit level. The grate air feeds the fire, the higher air vent moves the heat and smoke through the pit. This way, you can build a nice hot bed of coals, give them just enough air to burn “clean” then move that heat and smoke with the upper vent. I think this pit is burning a hot small fire that is giving you the desired temperature, but what you need is a cooler bigger fire to get the desired temp but also provide the proper smoke. You can’t hardly do this with just one grate level vent.


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## smokin peachey (Jul 16, 2021)

Chasdev said:


> You're on the wrong track, clear blue smoke is the holy grail and produces the best tasting meat.
> The size of your wood is also close to ideal in that you can micro manage the temps.
> Only unknown is if the wood was too dry.
> Hit Amazon and buy a moisture meter tool, they start under $40 and will tell the tale.
> ...


The OP mentioned using a moisture tester and what it tested


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## BenCarlson (Jul 16, 2021)

I definitely don't think it's an issue with the size of the wood. I use splits larger than 2" diameter, but they're not much larger and ive never had a problem. I also throw much, much smaller pieces onto my charcoal in my kettle when doing steaks for a touch of smoke and that small amount is enough to provide the flavor.

Honestly I would've bet the wood was too dry but if you tested it then I'm just not sure.


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## JBinGB (Jul 16, 2021)

BenCarlson said:


> I definitely don't think it's an issue with the size of the wood. I use splits larger than 2" diameter, but they're not much larger and ive never had a problem. I also throw much, much smaller pieces onto my charcoal in my kettle when doing steaks for a touch of smoke and that small amount is enough to provide the flavor.
> 
> Honestly I would've bet the wood was too dry but if you tested it then I'm just not sure.



Maybe our moisture meter is inaccurate? I will have to borrow my dad's once and maybe compare


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## smokin peachey (Jul 16, 2021)

JBinGB said:


> Maybe our moisture meter is inaccurate? I will have to borrow my dad's once and maybe compare


As long as there isn’t a lot of moisture bubbles coming out of the wood you are ok. Even a little bit of moisture bubbling out will be ok. No need to buy a meter.  Been burning wood a lot of years and have never used a moisture meter.


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## Chasdev (Jul 17, 2021)

I got "burned" several times by chainsaw drivers who claimed their wood was "fully aged" and turned out not to be as advertised, and I did not know what was wrong until I bought one, cut a few splits in half, and measured the internal moisture.
Found out my $600 worth of firewood was at 40%, so in addition to having to buy storage racks and stacking splits, I had to buy MORE wood.
I would like to see pics of the inside of the choo choo train cooker, perhaps the problem is down to a strange placement of the cook grate in relation to the fire box opening?
Frankly I've never seen a "Gimmick" cooker that was much more than yard art.


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## HalfSmoked (Jul 17, 2021)

I can't give any input as I don't have a stick burner I can say there are some interesting inputs here.
Hope you get your problem solved.

Warren


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## Displaced Texan (Jul 17, 2021)

During my brisket cook 2 days ago that I documented in a thread, I had some hickory wood delivered. Supposed to be seasoned, but the splits feel pretty heavy. They also seemed to smolder and have trouble catching fire, even with prewiring the splits. And, I split the splits, lol, with a maul to promote better burning.  I don't have a mere, but I question if the are down around 20% moisture. 

Anyway, I suppose I am so used to the store bought kiln dried stuff, that it will just be an adjustment for me. The smoke, once they wood did catch, was still pretty clean looking.


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## JBinGB (Jul 17, 2021)

Chasdev said:


> I got "burned" several times by chainsaw drivers who claimed their wood was "fully aged" and turned out not to be as advertised, and I did not know what was wrong until I bought one, cut a few splits in half, and measured the internal moisture.
> Found out my $600 worth of firewood was at 40%, so in addition to having to buy storage racks and stacking splits, I had to buy MORE wood.
> I would like to see pics of the inside of the choo choo train cooker, perhaps the problem is down to a strange placement of the cook grate in relation to the fire box opening?
> Frankly I've never seen a "Gimmick" cooker that was much more than yard art.



For a "gimmick cooker" it holds temps incredibly well. We can dial it in to whatever temp we want and it will hold. We just can't get the smoke flavor of our other cookers.

I have a feeling as posted above our splits are too small, and burn up and turn to coal before being able to do their job. We are going to try cutting the logs so the fit into the firebox, but not splitting them. Hopefully this will give us more mass and more smoke


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## JBinGB (Jul 18, 2021)

Here are some additional pics


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## JWFokker (Aug 26, 2021)

I think everything is configured correctly and the fire is burning too clean as you suspect. The KBQ C-60 has a setting on the firebox to allow the fire to get a little 'dirty' rather than the super clean default setting. Pellet smoke suffers from a similar effect. 

As someone else suggested, a larger diameter split will burn slower. Temps may not be as stable (larger swing) but you should get more smoke flavor. Throttling the intake airflow would likely help as well, allowing for a larger fire that isn't burning as hot as a small unrestricted fire.


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## JckDanls 07 (Aug 26, 2021)

Try throwing a split/log NEXT to the fire... not in the fire...  in the corner of the firebox..  this will just smolder then and not flame up..  for a while ...


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## daspyknows (Aug 26, 2021)

JckDanls 07 said:


> Try throwing a split/log NEXT to the fire... not in the fire...  in the corner of the firebox..  this will just smolder then and not flame up..  for a while ...



This is what I tend to do.  Then after awhile I push it on to the coals and add another split.


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## baronvk (Aug 30, 2021)

I am very new to smoking, but I ran into this over the weekend I think.  I have an OK Joes Highland to play with while I wait on my Lonestar Grillz offset.  I am getting some good practice with the OK Joes and learning to navigate its numerous shortcomings well.  Anyway, I learned that if I add small, not even really splits of wood, more like 2-3"x6" pieces on hot coal beds and open the firebox door until they are burning cleanly, I can entirely avoid the white smoke.  After they are burning, I close the firebox door and get nothing but clean blueish smoke.  

This weekend I wanted to smoke a mac n cheese.  I had it in a 12" dutch oven with lid off.   Ran it for 2 hours with the above method with hickory and pecan.  Kept the temp properly and ran clean blue through the cook chamber the whole time.  It BARELY had any smokiness to it at all!?  I tasted it again yesterday and I could detect a little smokiness, but not enough to justify the time spent.  SO, my thought is that on foods with shorter smoke times, I may WANT a little of that smoldering, early combustion smoke, and the "clean blue" is likely more important for food left on for longer periods which may otherwise get harsh.


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## sacedbysapp (Aug 30, 2021)

I bet your taste and smell was affected by the smoke from running the cooker.


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