# bad chicken



## charcoal junkie (Jul 7, 2014)

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...own-foster-farms-after-chicken-recall-n149806


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 7, 2014)

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I should be noted that eating PROPERLY Cooked Chicken that is contaminated is no issue. Further research would most likely find that under cooked or more likely Cross-contamination was responsible for the illnesses. Many folks ignore good sanitation after handling Chicken. Using the same board or knife to cut Salad ingredients or Veggie Tray components happens more frequently then one can imagine. I have caught students doing this all the time. They would put up their food for and cringe as I tossed the entire plate in the trash and explaining why I would not even try it to give a grade instead of Zero for the day.  Chicken juices dripping on food in the refer or on counters and sinks then having foods that will not be cooked contacting those sufaces is scarily common...JJ


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## daveomak (Jul 7, 2014)

I have been trying to follow this for probably a year or longer....    

The problem, as I understand it, is....   consumers are not following good, safe, food handling practices....  

Salmonella is not an adulterant.....  similar to botulism, on root crops, is not an adulterant....  properly handled, washed and processed in a fashion consistent with "safe food handling and processing"...  you will not get sick or even worse....

Garlic in oil, stored on a kitchen counter, unrefrigerated, could kill you as the medium is perfect for botulism to grow....  

Chicken, on a kitchen counter, then the counter is not washed, nor is a mild bleach solution not used to kill the salmonella, and then the pathogen is spread to other utensils or foods and folks get sick.....

Whether or not, the bacteria is "anti- biotic" resistant, a  mild chlorine solution will still kill it and folks will be safe.....  

A simple reminder to the general public....  "Cook chicken to 165 deg F or higher" and "Clean up your work surfaces with mild chlorine or approved sanitation liquid" and you will not get sick....

Like the e-coli outbreak and death of many children was "totally solved" by a thorough cooking of ground beef...  Jack-in-the-Box decided to serve "medium" or "medium rare" beef patties or what ever they were cooked to, and subsequently e-coli survived, and sickened and killed children and some adults....  again, that example shows how susceptible young and old can be, to something that doesn't effect the hale and hardy folks...

I don't understand why --  " Two members of Congress are calling on federal agriculture officials to shut down all Foster Farms poultry plants until a salmonella outbreak that has sickened more than 600 people is resolved. " --   Congress is blaming "Foster Farms" when the general public and it's lack of "good food safety habits" is to blame for the "outbreak"....

Now for the BAD news....   If you get ill from one of the 7 strains of salmonella found in FF chicken, and it's anti-biotic resistant, your doctor can't treat the infection/illness because it is anti- biotic resistant....    NOT FF fault....  try the FDA, USDA etc. for allowing AB's in the food supply of "food we eat"....

Some say, if allowing AB's in the food supply, of the "food we eat" continues, a simple scratch on the arm could kill you, because there will be no medications left on the shelf to deal with the infection....


Disclaimer.... I could be wrong about the above....  All I do is read and try and verify....


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 7, 2014)

Dave, the info you posted is accurate and to the point. The Chicken is not the problem, whomever prepared the chicken got them selves or family members sick...JJ


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## james1nc (Jul 7, 2014)

well said dave


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## venture (Jul 8, 2014)

If the stores are removing Foster Farms chicken, I would take as much as my freezer could hold!

I treat every piece of chicken as if it is contaminated.

Not sure how chicken could be mass produced without the risk of salmonella at the least?

Maybe irradiation is the answer, but you can already hear the outcry!

Properly handled and prepared chicken should not scare anybody.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## oldeboone (Jul 10, 2014)

Remember, Dave these are the same people (Congress) that think taking guns away from honest people will eliminate crime!!! Ernie


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## sqwib (Jul 10, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Now for the BAD news.... If you get ill from one of the 7 strains of salmonella found in FF chicken, and it's anti-biotic resistant, your doctor can't treat the infection/illness because it is anti- biotic resistant.... NOT FF fault.... try the FDA, USDA etc. for allowing AB's in the food supply of "food we eat"....
> 
> Some say, if allowing AB's in the food supply, of the "food we eat" continues, a simple scratch on the arm could kill you, because there will be no medications left on the shelf to deal with the infection....
> 
> ...


This is what, as a parent, has scared me for years and still does. Not to get off topic, but Thankfully we had pediatricians that weren't so quick to prescribe AB's all the time. The growth hormones fed to cows is another thing I worry about with the children.

Read this if you get a chance.

OK back on topic, Interesting Article


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## noboundaries (Jul 10, 2014)

Irradiation is the answer but folks won't allow it to happen in the US due to unrealistic fears about irradiation consequences.  Corporations have a hand in it too.  Imagine shelf stable meat, fruit, vegetables, grain and dairy that will last for years then be as fresh as the day it was packaged.  No glow in the dark milk or third eyes, just safe food.  It is well past the time it should be used here in the US.  Won't happen anytime soon though. Too much money is made from spoilage and keeping supplies artificially in check.


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## venture (Jul 10, 2014)

I think the real resistance would come from the public.

The meat producers have already embraced cryopaking meat.  They realize that it provides them more flexibility in storage, shipping, and time on the store shelf.  Less waste and a safer product mean more profit for the packer and the store.

If the packers and retailers see irradiation as a risk to their profit they should not.  Look at their current costs of waste, fines from the regulatory agencies, and the consumer lawsuits. 

On the other hand, mention irradiation in Berkeley and Katy bar the door!

None of this addresses the fact that the biggest part of the problem is improper handling and preparation by the consumer.  How many shoppers do you see placing meat in their carts and continuing to shop for extended times.  Then out to the hot car.  I would hate to see what actually happens in their kitchen.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Dave, the info you posted is accurate and to the point. The Chicken is not the problem, whomever prepared the chicken got them selves or family members sick...JJ


I disagree. Why each of us is responsible for his/her family and should handle food properly industrial processors and farms have the responsibility to ensure their product is free of contaminants. 

If they cannot do that they shouldn't be in business. These outbreaks are always a consequence of lack of procedures, enforcements or sloppy housekeeping.


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## noboundaries (Jul 10, 2014)

With a properly packaged and sealed  product that is then irradiated, it wouldn't matter when you put your meat in the cart.  There's nothing alive in the package to grow. Refrigeration would be for show only, a mental anchor for those used to the current status. Once opened though, then the clock starts ticking.


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

Venture said:


> I treat every piece of chicken as if it is contaminated.



According to the response pineywoods got from CDC you should not eat that 
"due to the serious nature of botulism, if you have reason to believe a food could be contaminated you should not eat it."


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## foamheart (Jul 10, 2014)

Noboundaries said:


> Irradiation is the answer but folks won't allow it to happen in the US due to unrealistic fears about irradiation consequences. Corporations have a hand in it too. Imagine shelf stable meat, fruit, vegetables, grain and dairy that will last for years then be as fresh as the day it was packaged. No glow in the dark milk or third eyes, just safe food. It is well past the time it should be used here in the US. Won't happen anytime soon though. Too much money is made from spoilage and keeping supplies artificially in check.


No offense meant, but after spending the best part of 4 years sleeping nightly 38 ft from a working Westinghouse S5W nuclear reactor. I completely disagree. I got less radiation that you did from the sun in that same period. But a day is coming when there will be an accidental yield.

Radiation is something that should never be allowed into civilian hands, and really shouldn't be used in the military either. Russia lost one, Japan lost one thru no fault of their own too, if you are talking about setting the food out in the sun, that cool, but Nuclear Power needs to be replaced, NOW! WE have been really lucky so far. But with age our diligence relaxes while we become more dependent even knowing its has a gazillion year life span of its poison. 

It doesn't matter how "small" the dose, how small the source, even a trace amount means it came from a home somewhere. 

I am not a tree hugger, I am although a nuclear trained realist. Shit happens, and you ain't  gonna believe what this shit can do,its like a poison on steroids!!

As to the poison on food stuffs? Why would I expect or even accept that someone else cleaned it off. Government employee's, minimum wage, I would actually believe that someone else washed the meat with chlorine or Clorox I would come just as close to believing they washed it with gasoline.

Like Ben Franklin said, "Believe nothing you hear, and only half that you see", and I ain't seen them do nothing!

When it comes to anything dangerous I believe in CYA. There should an "O" between the the "Y" and the "A" that stands for "Own".

Treat everything as if your life depends upon it, the time that you allow a lapse in your attentiveness its will bite ya in the butt!


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## venture (Jul 10, 2014)

Actually, I believe that response from the CDC was regarding a question about a garlic infused oil which was left at room temperature and never heated to a safe temperature or refrigerated?  Not something I would ever try or recommend?  If you check that thread, you will see I recommended against it.  What you will never see is a PM that I sent about that thread to a certain member who later posted?

"Due to the seriousness of the nature of botulism" if I had reason to believe chicken was contaminated WITH BOTULISM, I would not eat it.

I do have reason to believe that much of the mass produced chicken MAY be contaminated with salmonella or e coli among other nasties that do not include botulism.  And I will handle and cook it accordingly.

I do not have reason to believe that much of the mass produced chicken will be contaminated with botulism. I am trying to remember a chicken related botulism problem?  I am sure there must be some, but they just don't come to mind.

On the other hand, many food items from your garden are "contaminated" with botulism.  That is where proper handling and preparation come in.  You must especially "avoid" things like onions, garlic, leeks, carrots, potatoes and anything else that comes into contact with the ground. You avoid them, I choose to handle them properly and enjoy them.

Producing poultry with zero salmonella? 

Irradiation is the only way I can see that happening. I just don't think it is necessary.

Most food poisoning CASES come from the home kitchen.

Most food poisoning OUTBREAKS come from large scale food preparation.  Such as restaurants, schools, hospitals, nursing homes, prisons, cruise ships, etc.

Breakdowns in following USDA guidelines for handling and preparation are where most of the problem lies.

With proper handling and preparation, I do not fear commercially produced poultry products in this country.

If others do, they should not eat them until the perfect solution is found and agreed upon by all parties.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## daveomak (Jul 10, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> I disagree. Why each of us is responsible for his/her family and should handle food properly industrial processors and farms have the responsibility to ensure their product is free of contaminants.
> 
> If they cannot do that they shouldn't be in business. These outbreaks are always a consequence of lack of procedures, enforcements or sloppy housekeeping.






Soooooo.......  You want the government to protect you from all possible things that may harm you......     You want to take no responsibility upon yourself to keep you and your family safe.......

Sounds like........    wait for it.......    SOCIALISM......    But you already live in Canada.......   

OK Chef JJ.....  you probably don't like this post either.....    so go ahead and delete it.....


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Soooooo.......  You want the government to protect you from all possible things that may harm you......     You want to take no responsibility upon yourself to keep you and your family safe.......
> 
> Sounds like........    wait for it.......    SOCIALISM......    But you already live in Canada.......
> 
> OK Chef JJ.....  you probably don't like this post either.....    so go ahead and delete it.....



Let's not get political Dave and especially let's not recourse to stereotypes...this is a meat smoking forum.

My post said: "each of us is responsible for his/her family and should handle food properly"... Noticed the word responsible?

Where did I say government?


I expect the same responsibility from a company that makes a profit from selling me what I expect to be a clean product. Are you saying I should not expect that? Should we not expect to have clean water on tap because it's not a reasonable expectation in today's million souls cities and we should all boil water before drinking it?


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## foamheart (Jul 10, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Soooooo....... You want the government to protect you from all possible things that may harm you...... You want to take no responsibility upon yourself to keep you and your family safe.......
> 
> Sounds like........ wait for it....... SOCIALISM...... But you already live in Canada.......
> 
> OK Chef JJ..... you probably don't like this post either..... so go ahead and delete it.....


Don't candy coat it.......LOL Tell 'em what you think Dave........ROFLMAO!


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

Venture said:


> Actually, I believe that response from the CDC was regarding a question about a garlic infused oil which was left at room temperature and never heated to a safe temperature or refrigerated?  Not something I would ever try or recommend?  If you check that thread, you will see I recommended against it.  What you will never see is a PM that I sent about that thread to a certain member who later posted?
> 
> "Due to the seriousness of the nature of botulism" if I had reason to believe chicken was contaminated WITH BOTULISM, I would not eat it.
> 
> ...



The email to CDC was sent following a post regarding meat left in the trunk. 

Outbreaks happen when slaughterhouses/ meat packers AND schools/hospitals/restos screw up. They all have a responsibility , not just the end of the supply chain serving the food.


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

So let me get this right: there is unanimity here that we should not expect meat free of crap from the industry - that we just have to cook/cure the hell out of it?

So recalling contaminated meat is a waste of time and profit? They should just mark it down?

Wow. That's a strange world to live in. I prefer Dave's definition of socialism (LOL) where a corporation is held responsible for making people sick or killing them. So I can enjoy some sushi and carpaccio once in a while.


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## venture (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't like where this thread is going.

A member who posted in Post #2 reflects my views and my practices.

As to the rest of it?

PMs will be considered.

Other than that?

Venture is "over and out".

Good luck and good smoking.


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## foamheart (Jul 10, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> So let me get this right: there is unanimity here that we should not expect meat free of crap from the industry - that we just have to cook/cure the hell out of it?
> 
> So recalling contaminated meat is a waste of time and profit? They should just mark it down?
> 
> Wow. That's a strange world to live in. I prefer Dave's definition of socialism (LOL) where a corporation is held responsible for making people sick or killing them. So I can enjoy some sushi and carpaccio once in a while.


You miss understand, Yes I expect all those government officials to do their assigned jobs that my taxes dollars are paying for. I expect a President to know that a BJ under the desk is sex too, do I think the people smart enough to fulfill my expectations flawlessly? LOL I don't expect anyone to do their job, and oddly enough I am not disappointed more times than not.

Its when you start "assuming" someone else is going to take care of you that you make an .....well you know the saying.

If I open a bag of pork that is well within its due date and it smells, should I eat it because it says it should be good or trash it.

I believe in common sense trumps the government in all safety policies.


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## atomicsmoke (Jul 10, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> You miss understand, Yes I expect all those government officials to do their assigned jobs that my taxes dollars are paying for. I expect a President to know that a BJ under the desk is sex too, do I think the people smart enough to fulfill my expectations flawlessly? LOL I don't expect anyone to do their job, and oddly enough I am not disappointed more times than not.
> 
> Its when you start "assuming" someone else is going to take care of you that you make an .....well you know the saying.
> 
> ...


For some reason the government word makes its way in every reply without me bringing it up.


If all meat purveyors would be as bad as the one in the OP we would all be dead.


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## noboundaries (Jul 10, 2014)

Foam my friend. Love you buddy.  If you ate vegetables or fruit this week that came from overseas, or used spices in your rubs, you most likely ate an irradiated product.  It is already used to  reduce spoilage on food imported to the US.  There are labeling requirements but like anything else there are ways around it.  

Irradiation of food, which is consumables exposed to ionizing rays from Cobalt 60, is often confused with radioactive contamination from Plutonium or Uraniun, and that is the reason folks have not embraced it in the US.  The astronauts eat irradiated food every day.  It has been approved as safe by the FDA, WHO, CDC, USDA, and ME (couldn't resist).  Not all foods can be irradiated but in the spirit of this thread, chicken would be safer if irradiated.


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## daveomak (Jul 10, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> So let me get this right: there is unanimity here that we should not expect meat free of crap from the industry - that we just have to cook/cure the hell out of it?
> 
> So recalling contaminated meat is a waste of time and profit? They should just mark it down?
> 
> Wow. That's a strange world to live in. I prefer Dave's definition of socialism (LOL) where a corporation is held responsible for making people sick or killing them. So I can enjoy some sushi and carpaccio once in a while.





Hey......  I figured you were on here deliberately taking the "controversial" side of situations......   I was playing into your lead... 

By the way, the FDA does not consider salmonella a contaminant....  that is why they had no action against FFs.....   Just like botulism is not a contaminant....   Only when food is processed at home, and improper food handling practices get involved, do they pose a problem......   

Fair enough.......    :canada-flag-14:   long live Canada.....  Our ONLY neighbor that's dependable, to be on our side......


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## foamheart (Jul 11, 2014)

Noboundaries said:


> Foam my friend. Love you buddy. If you ate vegetables or fruit this week that came from overseas, or used spices in your rubs, you most likely ate an irradiated product. It is already used to reduce spoilage on food imported to the US. There are labeling requirements but like anything else there are ways around it.
> 
> Irradiation of food, which is consumables exposed to ionizing rays from Cobalt 60, is often confused with radioactive contamination from Plutonium or Uraniun, and that is the reason folks have not embraced it in the US. The astronauts eat irradiated food every day. It has been approved as safe by the FDA, WHO, CDC, USDA, and ME (couldn't resist). Not all foods can be irradiated but in the spirit of this thread, chicken would be safer if irradiated.


It is a discussion and not an argument. A simple disagreement.

I do understand, I also watched 'em use effluent water in their fields in Chihuahua. Its doesn't mean I want it that way. I know the Tyson plant in Ft.Smith. actually adds back a % of the chlorine to the packaging of the chicken. They wash 'em with the water "with antibotics" then use a percentage of that wash water when packaging the chicken. That's were that 3% added liquid comes from in the cryo bag. It doesn't mean I have to like it. I have plucked enough chickens to realize that if regular folks had to, there would be a lot less chicken on the Sunday table.

My problem is with radiation. I understand that cobat is nothing like uranium/plutonium or graphite for that matter.  I am telling you none of it is good, yes all is safe when used stored and protected.  There is nothing idiot proof. Its a fairly old event in a world measured by the longevity of computers. They are still stockpiling burnt rods in nearly every power plant, and driving around the ones that violate the AEC's storage requirements. I Sold piping and containment drums at the WIPP site. There is no good way to date to erase, destroy, or get rid of a poison that will never die.

They are trying to furnish food from too far away because its more profitable, they are trying to make it last until marginable to make more profit, the quality goes down and the profits go up. I remember when my Pop sounded like this and I laughed at him. The older I get the smarter he becomes. But don't tell him.

I'll get off my box. I understand why in the beginning, but I don't know why when so much more is understood. Pfft.... I mean what... tracking devices subcutaneously on a pet? 

This is smoking food, I apologize for the hijack. I am done.


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## noboundaries (Jul 11, 2014)

Big handshake and smiles all around.  Back to smoking meat.


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## randyt (Aug 20, 2014)

Getting close!http://s434.photobucket.com/user/el...CF89FA55-5F46-4C51-B9EA-4374A3A10D97.jpg.html


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## randyt (Aug 20, 2014)

Oops. Wrong place.


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## sqwib (Aug 21, 2014)

Venture said:


> I think the real resistance would come from the public.
> 
> The meat producers have already embraced cryopaking meat.  They realize that it provides them more flexibility in storage, shipping, and time on the store shelf.  Less waste and a safer product mean more profit for the packer and the store.
> 
> ...


Many have also been using Post Pasteurization for sliced meats, extending the shelf life dramatically... *another article here. *sort of old news but many of my customers have been using this method.


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## sqwib (Aug 21, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> The email to CDC was sent following a post regarding meat left in the trunk.
> 
> Outbreaks happen when slaughterhouses/ meat packers AND schools/hospitals/restos screw up. They all have a responsibility , not just the end of the supply chain serving the food.


Yes I remember that thread


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## sqwib (Aug 21, 2014)

RandyT said:


> Oops. Wrong place.


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