# New method of wrapping?



## golfpro2301 (Oct 30, 2014)

I am always tinkering with different things to try and get more tender and flavored meat. I take notes on every cook so I know what is working and what isn't. Plus it helps me out when preparing for competitions. I have done meat wrapped in foil, meat in steam pan with foil on top, meat wrapped in butcher paper. All had their own pros and cons. I head about the saran wrap method and tried that. First time the bark didnt stick so I took the meat to 175* the second time and wrapped and it turned out well good moisture on the inside. I am no meat expert so I could be wrong but wouldn't keeping as much of the juices in the meat while it is rendering better. Foiling you have a puddle after unwrapping, same as tenting in steam pan. I like this because I use the juices to dip pieces in before turning in my box. Butcher paper I believe it evaporates. Saran wrap a little still comes out. So I have been thinking of what you could do to make sure you lose no juices and I came up with an idea. What if when you went to wrap your meat you vacuum sealed it so it is air tight then wrap the vacuum seal in foil to protect from the heat. I dont know what the temp ratings are on this style of plastic but I would be interested in seeing the results. Anyone try this?


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## themule69 (Oct 30, 2014)

If you are going to wrap it that tight you might as well put it in the oven because you will get no smoke flavor.

Happy smoken.

David


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## crazymoon (Oct 30, 2014)

Your wrap is after the smoke so it would be smoked but don't know about the end result. Golf I hope you try it as I would be interested in the finished product.CM


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 30, 2014)

my only question would be...  how do you stick a probe in it and not break the vacuum ??


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 30, 2014)

Better get some liquid smoke in there. Pretty much Sous vides minus the water bath. I'm not sure how the metal on plastic would work. I do some meals in vac pack bags for kayak camping that we immerse in boiling water. Fine when in the water, but u you touch the bag to the hot edge of the pan or cooking grate etc the bag melts and you have a mess.


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## smokin italian (Oct 30, 2014)

Not to put a HUGE damper on your ideas and using plastic wrap before you foil to keep in the moisture.  BUT I've seen in this forum the concern everyone has for food safety, so before you go wrapping that beautiful piece of smoked meat in plastic here is something you might want to consider.

Chris Kresser’s recent post about a new study that shows that most plastics — including many that are BPA-free — can leach out chemicals with estrogenic activity (EA). In the study, researchers tested over 500 plastic products available to consumers — including baby bottles, Tupperware containers, sandwich bags and plastic wraps — and found that virtually all of them leached chemicals that “produce an increase in circulating estrogen, which in turn can cause problems such as early puberty in females, reduced sperm counts, altered function of the reproductive organs, obesity, increased rates of certain cancers and problems with infant and childhood development.” 

Yikes,  I'm still researching this myself but it doesn't sound to good to be using plastic anywhere in or near the cooking process

Here is the link for you to check it out for yourself, it has several other links to the studies he references 

http://chriskresser.com/how-plastic-food-containers-could-be-making-you-fat-infertile-and-sick


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## biggqwesty (Oct 30, 2014)

Has anyone tried reverse wrap?
Wrap for the first half unwrap for the last half??
My line of thought..
By having the meat wrapped the meat won't create that hard barrier that smoke can't penetrat but will hold a lot more moisture. 
Then when it's unwrapped go full smoke and allow the bark to form. 
But also seeing as the outer layer in now cooked less moisture should seep past..

I have no facts to back up I'm just clearly thinking out aloud.


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## biggqwesty (Oct 30, 2014)

Another way could be inject the liquid drippings back into the meat half way threw


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## golfpro2301 (Oct 30, 2014)

Jack - I was thinking about that as well. I thought that wrapped that tightly in plastic would only take an hour or so to get to 200*. I guess you would just have to use your best guess.

Big GQ - I have done that before and worked ok. The only problem is that if you inject everything back in there is nothing left to dip the slices into.

Italian - That doesn't sound good, but again cell phones are going to give me cancer and diet soda is going to rot my teeth away. I know plastics release chemicals but IMO me eating BBQ, drinking beer, and sitting on the couch most of the time will probably do more damage in the end.

I am hoping to try this on Sat. Will post pics and let everyone know how it turns out


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## themule69 (Oct 30, 2014)

GolfPro2301 said:


> Jack - I was thinking about that as well. I thought that wrapped that tightly in plastic would only take an hour or so to get to 200*. I guess you would just have to use your best guess.
> 
> Big GQ - I have done that before and worked ok. The only problem is that if you inject everything back in there is nothing left to dip the slices into.
> 
> ...


I am sorry to say you are 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Best of luck


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## themule69 (Oct 30, 2014)

themule69 said:


> I am sorry to say you are
> 
> 
> 
> ...


every thing sounds better with a 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





. I am still not seeing it!


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## biggqwesty (Oct 31, 2014)

GolfPro2301 said:


> Jack - I was thinking about that as well. I thought that wrapped that tightly in plastic would only take an hour or so to get to 200*. I guess you would just have to use your best guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are your thoughts on the reverse wrapping?


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## golfpro2301 (Oct 31, 2014)

I havent personally tried reverse wrapping but my butcher used to do it on ribs when competing in the 90's. He walked many times using this method. I cant remember exact details but I believe he did 2.5 hours wrapped then on smoker spritzing every so often. I kno he always cooked at 250.


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## golfpro2301 (Oct 31, 2014)

Decided to take off work early and try this today. Bad thing is my local wally world was sold out of whole packers so I had to go to publix and get a flat for $7.99/LB. Good thing was there was a lot of marbling and the flat was thick. Will keep everyone updated during the cook

Flat trimmed and and rubbed with John Henry's brisket rub then a good layer of Montreal steak.













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On the Memphis elite with plenty of smoking accessories. I only use Premium Pellets. This flavor was Texas Blend.













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__ golfpro2301
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## golfpro2301 (Nov 1, 2014)

Sorry, didnt get a chance to post results last night. I had planned on vacuum sealing at 170*. Everything was perfect and IT was at 168* when the Mrs. told me we were going to visit with niece to see her costume. Well I didnt want to go ahead and seal it because I didnt know how long it would take to finish. I dropped the temp down to 240*. When I cam back roughly 1.5 hours later the IT was at 165. I pulled it and Vacuum sealed it ( sorry forgot pics, was trying to get back on quickly) then wrapped with 2 layers of foil and back on the smoker at 275 (original cooking temp). I checked back 1.5 hours later and the vacuum bag was like a big baloon. Similar to the veggie steam bags but with no escape from the steam. The brisket was very pliable and soft which made me happy. I decided to let it ride out another hour. After 2.5 hours sealed I pulled off and cut open the bag to probe. it was 196*. I usually do to 200* but this would be fine. Let is rest for about 30 min (I was too hungry to go any longer) and then sliced into it. I sliced through the very center and thickest part first. Juices ran out everywhere onto the cutting board. I have done quite a few briskets and have had good results as far as moisture goes this had a little more than when I wrap with foil only. Tenderness was almost perfect. Could have gone to 200*. The bark however was non existent. Had a nice bark before I sealed it but all the steam in the bag took it off. It still had decent color but hardly any bark. I have listed IMO results below

Results:

Pros - you will get moist meat everytime no matter what

           After sitting on counter sliced for an hour I grabbed a piece and squeezed. Plenty of moisture still oozed out

Cons - No Bark

            A little difficult stuffing a brisket into a vacuum seal bag

            Once heated up the plastic expands and is no longer tight against the meat allowing juices to run out into the bag (defeats the purpose why I tried this to keep all juices inside

            No way of telling the exact IT. ( I cut the vacuum bag really long and opened it up after 1.5 to check temp then re sealed and back on smoker

IMO - Yes you will get moist meat. Maybe slightly more moisture than wrapping in foil but I dont know if it is worth the struggle of dealing with the vacuum process. If there was a significant difference maybe but I will probably stick with panning or foiling

Onto the next crazy idea when I think of it


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2014)

Try smoking the meat below 140....  then cook below 210 deg F....   may take 24 hours....   keeping the temp below the boiling point of water has some advantages...    
Oh yeah, one more thing....  use meat that has not been frozen...   freezing ruptures meat cells...   that causes internal moisture loss....   
Forming a pellicle on the meat, before smoking, also increases the ability of the meat to hold in moisture.... 

There you go....  my method of having moist meat arrive at the table....    No foil...  No saran....  No paper....    nice bark and moist meat....


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## wes w (Nov 1, 2014)

From my research from the experts here.   After about 160-170IT pork has taken on about as much smoke as its going to.  

I can get a good 1/2in. smoke ring in 5-6hrs.    I do foil.  I'm not a fan of bark, but that's just me.    As stated,  all that good juice is awesome in the bottom.   You can make gravy from it, or pour it back over the pork when finished.    Or, if your foil breaks getting it out of the smoker, you get to wear it.....  It will leave a mark too...

I have found that after vac packing and freezing,  my pork has an even better flavor.    The juice is forced into the meat.  Seal, clean edge and seal again.   

I personally wouldn't wrap with anything but foil while in the smoker.   But that's just my .02.....

Yeah, I know David,


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2014)

Wes W said:


> From my research from the experts here.   After about 160-170IT pork has taken on about as much smoke as its going to.
> 
> I can get a good 1/2in. smoke ring in 5-6hrs.    I do foil.  I'm not a fan of bark, but that's just me.    As stated,  all that good juice is awesome in the bottom.   You can make gravy from it, or pour it back over the pork when finished.    Or, if your foil breaks getting it out of the smoker, you get to wear it.....  It will leave a mark too...
> 
> ...



Morning Wes....  Hey.....  Smokin Al taught me his method...  what can I say...  I think there are only 87,354 ways to smoke meat unless you have found a new one..


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## golfpro2301 (Nov 1, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Try smoking the meat below 140.... then cook below 210 deg F.... may take 24 hours.... keeping the temp below the boiling point of water has some advantages...
> Oh yeah, one more thing.... use meat that has not been frozen... freezing ruptures meat cells... that causes internal moisture loss....
> Forming a pellicle on the meat, before smoking, also increases the ability of the meat to hold in moisture....
> 
> There you go.... my method of having moist meat arrive at the table.... No foil... No saran.... No paper.... nice bark and moist meat....


OMAK - What you mean by below 140 then cook below 210. you saying only smoke at 140* then cook at 210*? I have been wanting to do a full brisket at 215* and let it go unwrapped. My new Memphis Elite fits two 17lb Briskets perfectly. I think I might do a test run on one before my next comp to see how it goes. Pretty simple to do with pellet. Set temp and go sleep then eat the next night. One thing I love about the memphis is it is within 5* from side to side which it better be for $3200. one question when it is done cooking and you need to let it rest would you wrap in paper or foil? I would like to just let it sit on the cooker and turn it off but in a competition I use my memphis for chicken. 

How do you form a pellicle?


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2014)

A pellicle is a layer of soluble proteins, from the meat, that forms a "skin" on the outer surface of the meat....  
As one member calls it, a "raincoat"....  was that you Case ????

After an all nighter in the refer with rub on, I place the meat in the smoker at 120-140 ish with dampers wide open and no smoke....   or on the counter top, on a wire rack, with a fan blowing on the meat, until the surface gets dry to the touch and almost glossy...     In the smoker at 120-140 ish, an hour is usually more than enough... the meat surface will continue drying during the first stages of the "warm" smoke...


Pork ribs with seasonings....
...click on pics to enlarge...












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Pork ribs that the pellicle has formed...













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After pellicle has formed, add smoke for a few hours while slowly raising temp to 140-160 ish...    When you have enough smoke, turn the heat up to 210 ish and cook the meat...     No need for foil unless you want the "bark/pellicle" to "dissolve" in the meat juices...

This method should NOT be used when the meat has been poked, prodded, injected, or a thermometer has been pushed into it...  any of those things will inject surface bacteria into the meat, and that isn't good for low and slow cooked meats..  surface rubs or brines are fine...   DO NOT screw up the integrity of the "whole muscle"...   whole muscle is considered sterile on the inside....  it is the outer layer that has bacteria growing that you need to address..


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## golfpro2301 (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks OMAK. a few quick things. All these would be competition related. first thing is I inject my briskets then apply my rub. Is there a noticeable difference between starting at 140 and 210ish?

You say you rub overnight. I am assuming this is to just let the rub get into the meat. I arrive at comp sites around 12-1PM immediately get meat inspected then setup. Usually done around 3. Then I start prepping Briskets and butts (trimming and injecting). After is usually my down time where I relax, talk with the guys I know competing, and calling the Mrs. and telling her the stuff I forgot so she can bring it. I would imagine if I did that low of a temp with no foiling I would have to immediately put the fan on the meat after the rub and get it on the pit by 4PM and let it run all night so It can be off and rested by 11AM two hours before turn in? I dont know if 19Hours at 210* would be enough for a 15-17LB brisket. IT might have to be 225-230 dont you think? 

I know you have been a round smoking a lot longer than me. I dont know if you compete or not but if a FDA rep walks by and sees two briskets on table with fans blowing on them would they say anything?

For those who have not competed and want to FDA reps are a pain. Checking meat temps, making sure you have 3 step wash rinse sanitize setup. Last comp I had to refill my sanitize pan 5 times because I had a little too much bleach then not enough finally she let it slide. This was all 20 min before my first turn in.


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2014)

For injected meats, you need to start the smoke at 210 or higher... say 225.... You need to get the internal temp of the meat hunk up to 140 ish within 4 hours to reduce the chance of pathogens growing in the meat...

Competition rules are a whole different ball game....  rules must be followed....  safety and food codes, set by the alphabet agencies and the competition committee must be followed.....  

I've never done a comp...  

Food safety rules are only a PITA if you don't understand them....  That is a MUST DO to keep the public safe from contaminated, "unsafe" foods...   


I know you have been a round smoking a lot longer than me. I dont know if you compete or not but if a FDA rep walks by and sees two briskets on table with fans blowing on them would they say anything?

Probably....  not in the refer and not in the smoker....  sitting out on an open table would probably get you disqualified....    Ask them about forming pellicles on meats using fans on the table....


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