# check this uds site out youll get a kick out of this hahah



## pandemonium (Jul 7, 2010)

http://www.bigdrumsmokers.com/index.htm


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## pandemonium (Jul 7, 2010)

talk about price gouging


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## lugnutz (Jul 7, 2010)

WOW maybe I should sell mine to fund building 10 more??


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## pandemonium (Jul 7, 2010)

he doesnt even put handles or nipples and a valve haha and hes putting two racks in a normal sized drum so theres no way he has good clearance from the fire? Jeff probably wont like this thread but i couldnt resist lol


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## ddave (Jul 8, 2010)

Rocky Richmond of Big Drum Smokers is considered the father of the UDS by most big BBQ forums. His drums are very heavy guage and the people who own them are quite happy with them.

Check out this thread, particularly Post #6

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16896

You should learn a little something about the history of a product before you go out of your way to bash someone.

Dave


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

DDave said:


> Rocky Richmond of Big Drum Smokers is considered the father of the UDS by most big BBQ forums. His drums are very heavy guage and the people who own them are quite happy with them.
> 
> Check out this thread, particularly Post #6
> 
> ...


Whats your point? Theres a sucker out there for everything, and he will find them. If they choose to be raked over the coals because they didn't do their homework then so be it, but its still just a BARREL

And what i cant say my opinion on it i wasnt bashing him yet lol


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

As long as Rocky can sleep at night its all good.


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## wingman (Jul 8, 2010)

I didn't take this as the builder was getting raked over the coals so to speak. The UDS (BDS) certainly produce great results. His prices are rather high but to each his own. I think there is a smoker for the right price for everyone and allot of folks love the UDS and if some are willing to pay up to $1,200 for one of these more power to them. Myron Mixon was selling garbage can smokers for near $300. I said was... They are not on his site any more. Just my opinion... I'd before I paid $1200 or even $600 for one of the BDS smokers I'd put $1600 towards a Yoder Wichita.


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

I meant the uninformed buyer is the one getting raked, yes to each his own, i just thought it was post worthy and cant get over the fact that he has put as minimal work into them as i have ever seen and is asking for twenty times or more what its worth, good old USA


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## wingman (Jul 8, 2010)

It is post worthy. As I looked down the price list of models I started to cringe! I never would have thought those would sell for those prices, but you know.. Beauty and affordable price I guess is in the eyes and minds of the beholder.


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## ak1 (Jul 8, 2010)

You guys seem to be forgetting one thing. 

As a business, his costs for material & time involved, has to be accounted for.

As an example, if he's getting new steel drums, well that's at least 100 bucks a pop. then there's the racks, the mesh, stainless nut's bolts. etc. his time to manufacture.

Go out and price all the bits you used to make your drum and then figure how much time you spent making it.

Also, some people don't want to bother making one, or can't make one for whatever reason. For them it's worth spending that bit extra to receive a ready made product.


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## wingman (Jul 8, 2010)

Speaking for myself, i'm not forgeting or not realizing the cost of materials, time etc. As I stated to each his own. I will stand behind my humble opinion that the higher end of his price range to me, as I said, made me cringe. I also stated that they do produce quality results and if folks like them, beauty and value or affordable price is in the eye of the beholder. More power to those who buy them and like them. Some of those prices make me cringe for what they are. One could buy a Yoder smoker or something like it for those prices.Buy a Yoder and you get a lifetime burnout warranty. Again my opinion and I'm not bashing the builder or those who buy them or cook on them. Just my opinion. You all have a great day!


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

I also didn't forget the price to build them as i just built 2 and yes i didn't use new barrels and i paid about 115$ for the custom gators one with way more time and mine are way better built than his, i mean man he didn't put anything in his. its ridiculous in my opinion, but I'm sure this isn't his full time job so he figures either he will make a killing or wont sell one, and that's fine too, ohh and dont get me going on how he put two cooking racks in a reg sized barrel with no dome lid?


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## daddyzaring (Jul 8, 2010)

Boy, and I thought the ones selling on craigslist were high @ $200 (give or take $50), and they looked alot better built, and they're newly built too, not used.  Makes no sense to me.


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## ddave (Jul 8, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> Whats your point?


My point is that he was building BDS smokers LONG before anyone knew what a UDS was.  The UDS is a knockoff clone of his BDS and he went to a lot of trouble figuring out how to make it work so the rest of us who didn't want to spend the money to buy one of his could copy his design.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I just think a little respect for the pioneer of BDS/UDS is in order.

 


> Originally Posted by *pandemonium*
> 
> 
> 
> and cant get over the fact that he has put as minimal work into them as i have ever seen


How do you know that he has put minimal work into it?  Because there's no nipples, valve, handles or pretty paint job?  Lots of folks just drill holes and use fridge magnets or some other device to control airflow.  Can't see the inside of the drum from the pics.  You don't know what the charcoal basket looks like.  Maybe it's all welded stainless steel.
 


pandemonium said:


> ohh and dont get me going on how he put two cooking racks in a reg sized barrel with no dome lid?


Umm . . . okay . . . and why don't you think that would work for some of his customers?  Because the 2 that you built weren't done that way?  Maybe the bottom rack is for chicken.  Maybe he uses a diffuser plate on the shorter ones.  Lots of ways to make it work.  Just because it doesn't fit your concept of how the UDS should be doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing.

Dave


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## daddyzaring (Jul 8, 2010)

I know I shouldn't say anything here, because I know next to nothing.  But if you browse that site a bit, and look at the prices of the products, replacement parts, and compare to the pictures, he must feel that his effort no matter how little must be worth way more than the product, because those prices are ridiculous.  Sorry, but IMHO I must agree with pandemonium, those prices just don't match the product.
 


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *pandemonium*
> 
> ...


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## ddave (Jul 8, 2010)

daddyzaring said:


> I know I shouldn't say anything here, because I know next to nothing.  But if you browse that site a bit, and look at the prices of the products, replacement parts, and compare to the pictures, he must feel that his effort no matter how little must be worth way more than the product, because those prices are ridiculous.  Sorry, but IMHO I must agree with pandemonium, those prices just don't match the product.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion as is pandemonium.  I would say that it is hard to tell if the price matches the product unless one can see the product in person.  Clearly they match the product for many people because he is still selling them.

I guess it's more of an accounting question . . .. what are they worth??  What ever he can get someone to pay for them. 

But too often we jump to conclusions about the "worth" of things based on our own experience or willingness to pay.  What is the difference between a $40 Teltru dial thermo and a $3 ebay special?  Many folks would say $37.  But I would disagree.  Quality of materials AND workmanship are the difference.

Dave


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## eman (Jul 8, 2010)

Congrats on discovering the bds . now the prices he charges  are rediculus for the quality .

 For his prices there should be brass ball valves on risers for any intake. should have domed lid etc etc.

 I believe in paying a man a fair price for his talents and labor but the big ones dont cost anymore than $250 in material if you go top of the line everything . If it takes you over $750 in labor you shouldn't ever have tools in your hand.


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

Dave if he did indeed invent the uds then thats great and i thank him, but i did not read that in the link you posted.He must be a friend of yours or you know him from another board? All i am saying is hes a hack!! and a crook in my mind and after seeing his pic, well yes he looks like a scumbag to boot, and as far as the basket he sells that as well for a mere 35$ oh thats just a ring not the basket an yes thats bolts holding it together lol look Dave i didnt want to argue with you, you seem like a good guy and having a uds yourself you must see the insanity in his prices and quality? just my opinion and nothing more you dont have to agree with me.


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## fftwarren (Jul 8, 2010)

eman said:


> Congrats on discovering the bds . now the prices he charges  are rediculus for the quality .
> 
> For his prices there should be brass ball valves on risers for any intake. should have domed lid etc etc.
> 
> I believe in paying a man a fair price for his talents and labor but the big ones dont cost anymore than $250 in material if you go top of the line everything . If it takes you over $750 in labor you shouldn't ever have tools in your hand.


LOL


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## meateater (Jul 8, 2010)

If he's making a living and not sponging then all the best to him. Some folks are just hell bent on someone's success. And yes I am a Republican.


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## ddave (Jul 8, 2010)

> He must be a friend of yours or you know him from another board?


Actually he is my uncle. 

Just kidding.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  

Nope, I've never met him.  I've just read a lot of good things about him and his smokers on the BBQ Brethren.


> All i am saying is hes a hack!! and a crook in my mind and after seeing his pic, well yes *he looks like a scumbag to boot*,


Okay . . . 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	






> and as far as the basket he sells that as well for a mere 35$ oh thats just a ring not the basket an yes thats bolts holding it together


That's a Mini Charcoal Ring that goes inside the charcoal basket for doing lower temp smokes.  That's not the actual charcoal basket.


> having a uds yourself you must see the insanity in his prices and quality?


It's funny how everyone is harping on the price and throwing out figures like $600 or $1200.  The $1200 model is a stainless steel drum so you know it would cost you a bit to build one of those.  The model that is closest to what we build is $325.  In all actuality, I would say that's not too bad.


> you seem like a good guy and  just my opinion and nothing more you dont have to agree with me.


Well, thank you.  Nothing wrong with a little healthy debate whether we agree or not. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

actually the one like ours is the 375$ one mine is 23 1/2 x36 haha ok im done!! and no Meateater I dont have a problem with someones success, i just though it was postworthy to most the people on here that build their own, but yes i doubt he is selling too many


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## daddyzaring (Jul 8, 2010)

You can't completely believe everything you read like that.  You never know how some of those smokers may have been been influence in making their comment, even unknowingly.

There's really no way to be 100% sure unless you buy & try it yourself.

Personally I think this forum is more valuable than *any* smoker, even that over priced.  Of course I am more of the type of person that would rather help someone else out, and expect nothing in return, except returning the favor if ever needed to someone else.

 


> Nope, I've never met him.  I've just read a lot of good things about him and his smokers on the BBQ Brethren.


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

im with you lol 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




 


daddyzaring said:


> You can't completely believe everything you read like that.  You never know how some of those smokers may have been been influence in making their comment, even unknowingly.
> 
> There's really no way to be 100% sure unless you buy & try it yourself.
> 
> Personally I think this forum is more valuable than *any* smoker, even that over priced.  Of course I am more of the type of person that would rather help someone else out, and expect nothing in return, except returning the favor if ever needed to someone else.


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## meateater (Jul 8, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> actually the one like ours is the 375$ one mine is 23 1/2 x36 haha ok im done!! and no Meateater I dont have a problem with someones success, i just though it was postworthy to most the people on here that build their own, but yes i doubt he is selling too many


The scumbag comment was what made me comment back. I hope he sells a bunch with a "Made In America" sticker on them!


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

meateater said:


> The scumbag comment was what made me comment back. I hope he sells a bunch with a "Made In America" sticker on them!


ya that was just over the line lol and it felt good!!


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## ddave (Jul 8, 2010)

Well, at the risk of continuing this mountain out of a mole hill discussion . . . but, what the heck . . .
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




 


pandemonium said:


> actually the one like ours is the 375$ one mine is 23 1/2 x36 haha ok im done!! and no Meateater I dont have a problem with someones success, i just though it was postworthy to most the people on here that build their own, but yes *i doubt he is selling too many*


Oops . . . my bad. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Still $375 for a good heavy guage barrel would be a good price for someone doesn't have access to clean used drums or for whatever reason find that route more convenient.

If you look at all of the Testimonials page

http://www.bigdrumsmokers.com/testa.htm

and the Awards page

http://www.bigdrumsmokers.com/awards.htm

it certainly appears as if he is selling quite a few.
 


daddyzaring said:


> *You can't completely believe everything you read like that.*   You never know how some of those smokers may have been been influence in making their comment, even unknowingly.
> 
> There's really no way to be 100% sure unless you buy & try it yourself.
> 
> *Personally I think this forum is more valuable than any smoker*, even that over priced.


The BBQ Brethren *IS* a forum.  It has been around longer and has many more members than SMF.  You trust this forum explicitly but say I shouldn't believe what I read at the Brethren?? 

The Brethren also has hands down the *best* UDS build thread found ANYWHERE on the internet.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43943

If it was "postworthy to most the people on here that build their own", well, some people on here also build their own reverse flows.  Does that make Ben Lang a crook and a hack for the prices he charges for his reverse flow smokers?

http://www.pigroast.com/

I think a convincing case can be made that the *real hacks* are the weekend warriors who hang out on the forums and talk crap about people who are building smokers for a living and selling them to folks who are winning competitions with them.

But then that's just my opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave


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## pandemonium (Jul 8, 2010)

DDave said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing this mountain out of a mole hill discussion . . . but, what the heck . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya Rocky we hear you haha and we thought you were really named Dave haha


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## smokingohiobutcher (Jul 8, 2010)

Oh Brother!!! Here we go again....cant we all just get along so nobody gets banned??
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Just my $.02.

SOB


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## daddyzaring (Jul 9, 2010)

*(1.)*   I never said anything specific to, this other forum you seem to favor, and you can believe anything or everything you want, and I never made any comment say this forum is better than that one, just that the knowedge I have gotten off here is more valuable, at least to me(if I wanted a BDS/UDS, the knowedge from here would save me over $1K).  I was just trying to say that (unless you know the person, personally) anyone can type anything and post it and say it is the true or whatever, that doesn't mean it is 100% true.  Even if it is true, you can't know 100% that the product they are reviewing, or giving their opinion on will be the exact same as what the buyer will receive.  It is also hard to tell who may be bias as well, for whatever reason.

*(2.)*   From what I have seen from Langs  you can tell the quality,and can see where the dollars go, I can't honestly say that for those BDSs.
 


DDave said:


> *(1.) *The BBQ Brethren *IS* a forum.  It has been around longer and has many more members than SMF.  You trust this forum explicitly but say I shouldn't believe what I read at the Brethren??
> 
> *(2.)* If it was "postworthy to most the people on here that build their own", well, some people on here also build their own reverse flows.  Does that make Ben Lang a crook and a hack for the prices he charges for his reverse flow smokers?


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## wingman (Jul 9, 2010)

DDave... you cracked me up! "He's my uncle"  LMAO! Now that was funny... Or I'm just easily amused this evening.


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## pandemonium (Jul 9, 2010)

Wingman said:


> DDave... you cracked me up! "He's my uncle"  LMAO! Now that was funny... Or I'm just easily amused this evening.


you think thats funny haha but by the way hes defending him i think he is!! but at least Dave had the sense to add handles and a valve on his uds!! ohh!!

Ok lets stop fighting here and go post on Rockys forum lol


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## wingman (Jul 9, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> you think thats funny haha but by the way hes defending him i think he is!! but at least Dave had the sense to add handles and a valve on his uds!! ohh!!
> 
> Ok lets stop fighting here and go post on Rockys forum lol


pandemonium, I meant no desrespect man. It was funny... Do I agree with his points made? No but I'm not going to let his or anyones difference in opinion upset me. I thought his statement about the guy being his uncle was funny so I stated so. I thought your opinion about the cost factor of the UDS builds you posted was correct as far as over the top. I stated so. I'm just voicing my opinion not chosing sides.  It's all good man. We all should not let differences in opinion poison our mood or this forum. After all it's just another opinion right? Have a great evening or should I say morning man.


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## ddave (Jul 9, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> Ya Rocky we hear you haha and we thought you were really named Dave haha


Now why would Rocky build a UDS with a Weber lid and paint it Daytona yellow? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Maybe it's part of a plan to maintain annonymity.

Oh . . . and haha. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 


Wingman said:


> DDave... you cracked me up! "He's my uncle"  LMAO! Now that was funny... Or I'm just easily amused this evening.





pandemonium said:


> Ok lets stop fighting here and go post on Rockys forum lol


Nah, let's talk about something really controversial . . . like foiling.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 


Wingman said:


> pandemonium, I meant no desrespect man. It was funny... Do I agree with his points made? No but I'm not going to let his or anyones difference in opinion upset me. I thought his statement about the guy being his uncle was funny so I stated so. I thought your opinion about the cost factor of the UDS builds you posted was correct as far as over the top. I stated so. I'm just voicing my opinion not chosing sides.  It's all good man. We all should not let differences in opinion poison our mood or this forum. After all it's just another opinion right? Have a great evening or should I say morning man.


Why apologize Wingman?  If you thought it was funny I don't see how that's disrespectful of pandemonium.  You don't agree with me . . . that's fine.  I don't agree with him . . . that's fine too. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Nothing wrong with debate although this one has more than run it's course.

Dave


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## pandemonium (Jul 9, 2010)

No its all good im not mad at all I think this is funny, yes those damn foilers let me tell you about them!!


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## pandemonium (Jul 9, 2010)

mods please delete this thread.

Thank you


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## wingman (Jul 9, 2010)

It was funny but I have a hard time reading folks through type... Sometimes my typing may come off the wrong way and I'm not one to purposely try and upset someone. I'm also one to offer an appolagy if I feel I may have come off wrong. you know defuse the situation. Pandimonium and I have exchanged some emails on video editing software etc. He seems like a great guy so I just wanted to make sure all was cool. And it is.

And for the record... Ok.. Here I go... Cringing... I do agree with him on the pricing. I said it before and will stand my gorund, those prices are... ouch! Too high in my opinion. Before I would spend $1,200 on a UDS of his I would buy a Yoder with a lifetime burn out warranty.


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## wingman (Jul 9, 2010)

meateater said:


> If he's making a living and not sponging then all the best to him. Some folks are just hell bent on someone's success. And yes I am a Republican.


Further more Meateater says it all. The not sponging part anyway.. Regardless of his high prices... I couldn't agree more. this is America and if ones dream is to build expensive UDS (BDS) or cheap ones for that matter they should go for it. What ever they make in money and due to support themselves as long as it's legal... means others won't have to support them through taxes etc. I'm too a proud republican.











And now is a good time to say no offense to those who think differently.


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## pandemonium (Jul 9, 2010)

lol here we go again heheh, yes the American Dream is a very large open market for anyone to get into!!!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 9, 2010)

Hey--Hey--Hey!

I don't mind a knock down, drag out fight, but change your names, or something!

You guys are ALL some of my favorite members---Makes me depressed to see you arguing!

Bear


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## wingman (Jul 9, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Hey--Hey--Hey!
> 
> I don't mind a knock down, drag out fight, but change your names, or something!
> 
> ...


It's all good... As I stated I don't fight with folks period... Just voice my opinion... I have a stong opinion we need to fire up our pits and post some Q-view with all the trimmings!


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## wildflower (Jul 9, 2010)

BOY'S BOY'S BOY'S


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## pandemonium (Jul 9, 2010)

yea i think were just voicing (spelling?) our opinions here if anyone gets mad thats too bad because its all just opinions.


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## daddyzaring (Jul 10, 2010)

I didn't think anyone was getting mad, was there?  I thought we were just having a healthy dicussion?  My first post specifically stated that I know nothing, so I figured that alone should have explained that my statements could be true or false, but only my feelings, or "opinions" on the subject. lol


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## wingman (Jul 10, 2010)

What we need is a pitcher of beer emoticon so we can all have a round of virtual beers. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  For now a thumbs up will do I guess. I was hoping to see some q-view from your guys. I spent my day prepping and starting on stainig my deck. Ugh!


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## daddyzaring (Jul 10, 2010)

Is this close enough?







or







or


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## wingman (Jul 10, 2010)

Daddyzaring way to roll! How did you know I like a stout dark beer.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 10, 2010)

That's better!

I thought I was gonna have to get in between you guys, and figuring out exactly where that was between Washington, Florida, and a couple undisclosed locations is extremely difficult!

Bear


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## daddyzaring (Jul 10, 2010)

I am in the middle, right smack dab in the middle.  lol  Kansas City Kansas (well actually Bonner Springs, but it's the same thing around here).

 


Bearcarver said:


> That's better!
> 
> I thought I was gonna have to get in between you guys, and figuring out exactly where that was between Washington, Florida, and a couple undisclosed locations is extremely difficult!
> 
> Bear


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## pandemonium (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks for the beer


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## ak1 (Jul 10, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> yea i think were just voicing (spelling?) our opinions here if anyone gets mad thats too bad because its all just opinions.


And? Your opinion is based on what?  
Actually seeing the product, working with the product, talking to owners of the product...

or, you just happened to see the website and based your opinion on the price charged and the way the owner looks?

Heck, opinions are nice, but they need to be backed up with more than lol's & hahaha's


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## meateater (Jul 10, 2010)

I can be civil but will never flip/flop. Charcoal all the way, none of that.............


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

AK1 said:


> And? Your opinion is based on what?
> Actually seeing the product, working with the product, talking to owners of the product...
> 
> or, you just happened to see the website and based your opinion on the price charged and the way the owner looks?
> ...


My opinion is based on looking at the pictures and website, nothing more. Look AK what does my opinion mean anyway? Not a damn thing!! but i am aloud to have it. Like i said I just thought they were overpriced for what they are. I dont care if you agree with my opinion LOL HAHA!!!


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

meateater said:


> I can be civil but will never flip/flop. Charcoal all the way, none of that.............


What do you mean?


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

I tried to close this thread and the mods didnt do it so I guess we will continue the fun?


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## TulsaJeff (Jul 11, 2010)

I don't see a big problem with this thread as long as everyone can respect everyone else's opinions. Opinions should be based on a lot of fact and research in my opinion but that again is just my opinion and in reality, opinions can be based  on just about anything.

I agree that this seems like a lot to pay for a barrel but then again, If I was buying the barrels, cleaning them out, burning out the liner, going to Lowes, Home Depot or the local hardware store to pick up parts, painting them, etc. by the time I got through I might feel like it was worth quite a bit.

This guy may be really good at what he does and may feel like his time is worth a lot.. the price of products is basically materials, labor and overhead and the part that we don't really know about is the labor and the overhead.

I am not saying it is worth it or not worth it, I'm just saying that there is probably a lot more than meets the eye and if he is getting his price and folks are loving his barrels then why should he change?

If he has some competition then maybe that will force him to build faster, find cheaper parts, and drop his prices.

That is, fortunately for all of us, the great thing about America and why I love living here
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I am keeping this open (for now).. do me a favor and keep it civil even if you have differing opinions.


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

I win


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## redman (Jul 11, 2010)

Question for someone...I'm smoking a 9 lb butt, started at 5:00 AM, put a little too much charcoal in to start, internal temp is already 135 at 10:00 AM.  Should I be concerned, or if I get temp lowered, will it be ok?


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

Redman said:


> Question for someone...I'm smoking a 9 lb butt, started at 5:00 AM, put a little too much charcoal in to start, internal temp is already 135 at 10:00 AM.  Should I be concerned, or if I get temp lowered, will it be ok?


whats you smoker temp? yes i think if you can get the smoker temp lowered you should be fine, i just had the same problem last week and it turned out great so dont get all worried it will be good still


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

Pande,

Now I'm confused. A newbi is concerned that "he's all the way up to 135˚ after only 5 hours", which is still in the danger zone, and we tell him to "Lower" the temp???

Please straighten me out on this. I always worry about getting over 140˚ in less than 4 hours. Am I misunderstanding the whole theory.

Most of my smokes have been of cured products, which don't have a danger zone, so in regular smoking, I'm still inexperienced, and that answer really confused me.

Thanks,

Bearcarver


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

Yes I screwed up!! I did not even realize that he was in the danger zone still. Glad you said something, I was just thinking about his grill temp and didnt even catch that. Ive never really even paid attention to that on my smokes, but the way I understand it if your external temps are at 225 or more you should not have to worry about the danger zone? I am no expert on this so hopefully someone will speak up on this. The only time i hear of that problem is when trying to smoke a turkey thats too big to get to temp in time.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 11, 2010)

Hey Bear, the latest info we have now (posted in the food safety forum by bbally) states that with whole muscle meats (not punctured, cut/filleted or ground) we need only be concerned about the outer 1/2" of surface, and this temp range is 40-138*, for the 4-hour time frame. For ground meats (fatties, including stuffing) or meats which have been injected or punctured in any way (including temp probes), fillets (example: stuffed pork loin) which are re-closed etc, then, the entire interior of the meat must pass through this temp range in 4 hours.

I don't worry when I have a 9lb butt or 16-18lb brisket still below 138* I/T after I'm 8+ hours into the smoke...and yea, I've had it happen, too.

Here's the discussion:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/72852/food-safety-and-low-and-slow-discussion

Hope this helps with any confusion.

Smoke on brother!

Eric


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> Yes I screwed up!! I did not even realize that he was in the danger zone still. Glad you said something, I was just thinking about his grill temp and didnt even catch that.


OK, thanks,

I still am confused, but at least not on this one.

There was one the other day that confused me, but I didn't want to pizz anyone off, so I shut-up thinking there must be something that I don't understand. There was a small pig that was at 148˚ after 7 hours of cooking. I'm thinking, "What temp was it at 139˚ if it was only at 148˚ at 7 hours?"

As long as we're here, maybe you can explain what other variable makes that ok. Is it because he's going to keep cooking it a certain length of time after that, that makes being in the danger zone too long OK, or what. 

Curing & smoking Bacon is SOOOO much easier to me than regular smoking, because I've done a lot of it, and taught a lot of others how to do it, and there is no danger zone.

Thanks again,

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks Eric,

You got that answer in before my last post (I type with one finger), but I guess that means anybody who still puts his probe in right away still has the problem I worry about. 

I gotta go eat now, but I'll read bbally's thing later. If you can add anything about the early probers, please do, because I'm betting 90% of smokers probe when they start her up.

Gracias,

Bear


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 11, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Thanks Eric,
> 
> You got that answer in before my last post (I type with one finger), but I guess that means anybody who still puts his probe in right away still has the problem I worry about.
> 
> ...


No prob brother!

Yea, as for probes, there's not much point in sticking it right away, IMO...unless you like to sit and watch it slowly climb...kinda like watching the grass grow...J/K!!!!!!

Seriously though, if you inject your meats with a brine or marinade, use a penetration-type tenderizer (the kind with needles), if you pierce the meat to add pockets for sticking garlic cloves into, or if you insert a temp probe before the exterior 1/2" has reached at least 138*, any of these actions _*could likely*_ introduce harmful bacteria by pushing it through the surface and deeper into the meat...that's my take on how I read bbally's post awhile back.

Hmm, you know, I think I need to review that thread again very soon, so I can make sure I'm still in the game...a lot can happen to one's mind after 6 months or so has passed.

The older version of the safe time/temps rule that we all tried to follow was 40*-140* within 4 hours...period...without any deviation for whole muscle meats vs ground/injected/punctured, stuffed/filleted, etc. This was a much more stringent rule to follow, and thus many of us were doing our best to achieve this goal, so IMO, we were erring towards the safety side of things...and no harm was done. Now, it's 40-138* in 4 hours, with consideration of the above mentioned conditions.

Anyhow, for the really big cuts, I wait for 7-8 hours now days, 'cause I know I'm nowhere near foiling or finished temps anyway.

At the very least, wait at least 4 hours if your pretty sure the meat will not reached your target temp before that time...smaller cuts may hit your target in under 4 hours, especially if you run higher chamber temps (250-275*).

bbally's post really gets these issues out in the open, and it's not based on opinions...it's straight from the federal level...I recommend it to anyone who is not certified as a food handler and has not read it yet, please do so.

Eric


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

forluvofsmoke said:


> No prob brother!
> 
> Yea, as for probes, there's not much point in sticking it right away, IMO...unless you like to sit and watch it slowly climb...kinda like watching the grass grow...J/K!!!!!!
> 
> ...


OK, now I have read it twice, and probably have more questions than I had before. The ones about holding this or that for this temp for 3 minutes, or that for 12 minutes are very confusing (seems to easy), but I don't think I have to worry about them, because I just want to know the basics on the danger zone, and not what I can do to make a commercial product legal.

So I can use my infa-red to tell what the surface temp is at any time, but how is that going to tell me what the temp is 1/2" deep without probing? Do I probe it after the surface hits 140˚? Is it safe to insert the probe as long as I'm getting a 140˚ reading on the surface? I always scrub my probes before inserting & after use, and I also just started using alcohol wipes.

And as for the 250˚ to 275˚ thingy, I doubt I could get my MES that high in the winter.

I'd like to get to know this stuff as much as I now understand curing & smoking various kinds of Bacon with TQ.

Bear


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## daddyzaring (Jul 11, 2010)

I'm a little confised here too now?  You're not supose to put a meat probe in until it reaches a certain temperature, but how do you know when it reaches that temperature?  Is it not good at all to cook with a probe in, because I know I like to use my Mav. ET-73, so I can keep an eye on the smokers temp as well as the meat without have to linger around my smoker the whole time.  I'll have to take a look at BBally's post too.  I haven't really done anything too big yet, but I went to the store yesterday morning to just get a few quick breakfast items for the kids and wife, and ended up getting a 15lb butt, and a 10lb pork loin (they were on sell for $1.79/$1.99 per lb).  They probablly sit in the freezer for awhile, until I get the nerve to smoke them, but this is definately some information I will need to study.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

daddyzaring said:


> I'm a little confised here too now?  You're not supose to put a meat probe in until it reaches a certain temperature, but how do you know when it reaches that temperature?  Is it not good at all to cook with a probe in, because I know I like to use my Mav. ET-73, so I can keep an eye on the smokers temp as well as the meat without have to linger around my smoker the whole time.  I'll have to take a look at BBally's post too.  I haven't really done anything too big yet, but I went to the store yesterday morning to just get a few quick breakfast items for the kids and wife, and ended up getting a 15lb butt, and a 10lb pork loin (they were on sell for $1.79/$1.99 per lb).  They probablly sit in the freezer for awhile, until I get the nerve to smoke them, but this is definately some information I will need to study.


Daddy,

I can make that 10 pound Pork loin easy for you!

Just go to my signature above, and click on "Boneless Smoked Pork Chops/Canadian Bacon".

Then all you'll have to worry about will be that big butt of yours. Sorry about how that sounds.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I think there was something about that basic 4 hour rule being for "Dummies". They may have been referring to guys like me.

Bear


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 11, 2010)

daddyzaring said:


> I'm a little confised here too now?  You're not supose to put a meat probe in until it reaches a certain temperature, but how do you know when it reaches that temperature?  Is it not good at all to cook with a probe in, because I know I like to use my Mav. ET-73, so I can keep an eye on the smokers temp as well as the meat without have to linger around my smoker the whole time.  I'll have to take a look at BBally's post too.  I haven't really done anything too big yet, but I went to the store yesterday morning to just get a few quick breakfast items for the kids and wife, and ended up getting a 15lb butt, and a 10lb pork loin (they were on sell for $1.79/$1.99 per lb).  They probablly sit in the freezer for awhile, until I get the nerve to smoke them, but this is definately some information I will need to study.


Yea, I know it seems kind of off-the wall...this was discussed in more details in bbally's thread. I'm having trouble remembering which direction it turned at this stage...something along the lines of the exterior 1/2" of the meat surface should reach at least 138* in (x) amount of time with a chamber temp of 225*. I just can't remember the time frame now...30 minutes...maybe 60? It's in the thread though. I know for sure now that I need to review it again...LOL!!!!!!!!

Eric


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## Bearcarver (Jul 11, 2010)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Yea, I know it seems kind of off-the wall...this was discussed in more details in bbally's thread. I'm having trouble remembering which direction it turned at this stage...something along the lines of the exterior 1/2" of the meat surface should reach at least 138* in (x) amount of time with a chamber temp of 225*. I just can't remember the time frame now...30 minutes...maybe 60? It's in the thread though. I know for sure now that I need to review it again...LOL!!!!!!!!
> 
> Eric


Eric,

I read it three times now, so after you review it, let me know how you tell the temp of the meat at 1/2" deep.

Thanks,

Bear

Darn, Now I gotta leave---Tomorrow's another day.

Bear


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 11, 2010)

Woah!! I see what you mean about that thread I linked you to, started by bbally...most of it's content is gone.

Rats...I'll do a bit of digging if I get a chance (still doing prep for my upcoming road trip) and see if there's other similar posts to refer to now. I did see a couple of thread titles in the food safety forum that looked promising.

Eric


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

this is too much thinking cant we just go back to arguing? lol just kidding, good info I think


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 11, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> this is too much thinking cant we just go back to arguing? lol just kidding, good info I think


ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh man, you almost brought tears to my eyes with that one! Crap, I'm still laughing...........

Eric


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

Thats what I try for 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 haha


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## ak1 (Jul 11, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> this is too much thinking cant we just go back to arguing? lol just kidding, good info I think


That was funny!!!

Besides, we weren't arguing; we were "passionately discussing" opposite viewpoints.

Damn! There we go arguing again!


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## daddyzaring (Jul 11, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, do they have a back up of the old site?


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## pandemonium (Jul 11, 2010)

why do you want to go back Daddy?


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## daddyzaring (Jul 12, 2010)

Not go back, though I am still kind of undecided about how much I like this new format or not. lol  I just meant to be able to retreave information that didn't transfer to this new format.


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## tom37 (Jul 12, 2010)

Not arguing here, though pans post was pretty funny! Actually just waiting to see if there is a tried and true method to know if the outside 1/2 " is up to temp.

"passionately discussing" opposite viewpoints. Good one AK1, i like it.


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## wingman (Jul 12, 2010)

What in the hell happened to this thread? It once was filled with opinions and smelled of free speech and the American dream. I spent the day staining decks and come back to it and  now it smells of bad meat? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  Or I guess we don't quite know if the meat is bad yet until we figure out how to measure the outer 1/2" of the meat properly.God god! I'm laughing my ARSS off over here in Tacoma WA. Only in America and Smoking Meats forum I guess.... You guys crack me up!

I'm not going to jump in on the meat thing but I still think he charges too much for his UDS (BDS)'s. Ha!


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## tom37 (Jul 12, 2010)

See how easy it is to entertain us!!

Heck, who would have ever thought this thread would have ran into 5 pages. 

BTW My 2 cents says he may be on the high side as well, but as said before if he has people paying his prices why drop them down.


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## wingman (Jul 12, 2010)

And as I said.. It's America! He should be doing what he feels is best as long as its legal! I'm with ya!

I'm also still scratching my head over the bad or good or lets measure the meat thing.... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Going on page 6!


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

I remember this meat probe conversation before, well kinda, well I remember enough that i think the probe in the meat too soon is just a little too much thinking and or worrying. I have put mine in all but my last pork but when meat went on and im not puking blood.


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Would you people please keep this on topic!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	













This is all about arguing( sorry, "passionately discussing") with Pandemonium.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





As for sticking a probe in the meat, I usually stick it in right at the start, and, as P said, I ain't coughin' up no blood!

Mind you, I always wipe down my probe with an alcohol wipe prior to using it.


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

An alcohol wipe huh? its like your giving it a shot at the Dr.


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Yeah! LOL, With a really big needle
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Actually, last time I was at my local restaurant supply place, I saw a box of "THermometer probe wipes"

This stuff. Not the same brand, but you get the idea.

 http://www.taylorusa.com/restaurant-hospitality/thermometers/thermometer-probe-wipes.http


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

Sorry about stepping on your thread guys, but it had strayed before I got here. I've asked that question on other threads, and never got an answer, and I'm still trying to figure out how you can measure the temperature of the meat at 1/2" deep, without sticking something in 1/2" deep, because they say "It's OK to stick the probe in if it's 140˚ at 1/2" deep. And I say "Huh?"

Bear


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## richoso1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Sorry about stepping on your thread guys, but it had strayed before I got here. I've asked that question on other threads, and never got an answer, and I'm still trying to figure out how you can measure the temperature of the meat at 1/2" deep, without sticking something in 1/2" deep, because they say "It's OK to stick the probe in if it's 140˚ at 1/2" deep. And I say "Huh?"
> 
> Bear


Sounds like it's time for a laser type therm, I'll get to making one right now.... yeah.


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

I think you're misunderstanding the theory.

Basically, on a whole cut of meat, the important thing is for the outside 1/2" to reach the safe zone within 4hrs. That's what kills the surface bacteria. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for the center to reach temp.


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

I never knew they had wipes like that for a food thermometer wow


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

AK1 said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the theory.
> 
> Basically, on a whole cut of meat, the important thing is for the outside 1/2" to reach the safe zone within 4hrs. That's what kills the surface bacteria. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for the center to reach temp.


Don't know who you're answering here, but if it's me----That is my point. Next time you have a piece of meat smoking, measure what the temp is at 1/2" deep, but don't break the outer surface.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

richoso1 said:


> Sounds like it's time for a laser type therm, I'll get to making one right now.... yeah.


Great idea, my insta-red laser thingy only reads surface temp. It's also great for teasing the cat!

Bear


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## richoso1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Great idea, my insta-red laser thingy only reads surface temp. It's also great for teasing the cat!
> 
> Bear


Does it work the same way on women?


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Don't know who you're answering here, but if it's me----That is my point. Next time you have a piece of meat smoking, measure what the temp is at 1/2" deep, but don't break the outer surface.
> 
> Bear


I was answering you. 

I don't think that you have to measure the outside 1/2". Given the cooking chamber temps, the outside will reach the required temps quite fast and kill any creepy crawleys.


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

I think you're misunderstanding the theory.

Basically, on a whole cut of meat, the important thing is for the outside 1/2" to reach the safe zone within 4hrs. That's what kills the surface bacteria. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for the center to reach temp.


AK1 said:


> I was answering you.
> 
> I don't think that you have to measure the outside 1/2". Given the cooking chamber temps, the outside will reach the required temps quite fast and kill any creepy crawleys.


doesnt that contradict what you just posted earlier? you said the outside was the only part you have to worry about, that the inside didnt matter how long to get to temp? confused here


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the theory.
> 
> Basically, on a whole cut of meat, the important thing is for the outside 1/2" to reach the safe zone within 4hrs. That's what kills the surface bacteria. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for the center to reach temp.
> 
> doesnt that contradict what you just posted earlier? you said the outside was the only part you have to worry about, that the inside didnt matter how long to get to temp? confused here


I didn't think it does.

Let me try this again.

On a whole cut (brisket, butt, etc), as long as the outside of the meat gets into the safe zone you're OK as far as killing bacteria. That happens quickly because of the cooking chamber temps. At this point, it doesn't really matter what the internal temperature is, because there's no germs there to worry about. You still have to cook the meat through, but you wont have issues with bacteria.


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## wingman (Jul 12, 2010)

Come on page 6!


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Wingman said:


> Come on page 6!


Who would have thought it would go this long


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

AK1 said:


> I was answering you.
> 
> I don't think that you have to measure the outside 1/2". Given the cooking chamber temps, the outside will reach the required temps quite fast and kill any creepy crawleys.


How do you know that without measuring it?   Psychic?


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Not psychic, just using logic.

Imagine cooking a steak. you sear the outside and it's nice and brown with pretty grill marks. When you cut it open, it's brown outside, slightly greyish into the meat a bit then nice and pink inside.

Same principle applies, just on a slightly longer timeline.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

I understand that, but as much as we all know it should be hot enough, we don't know if it's really 140˚ at 1/2" deep inside the meat, unless we measure it. If you know that, you are psychic. Anything else is just guessing---Right?


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

i deserve some kind of award for the longest meandering thread ever!!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






hows about a little tbs tag by my name? lolol


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> i deserve some kind of award for the longest meandering thread ever!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely, and we still didn't get any witches or warlocks to admit that they are psychics. Must be afraid of fire & water.

Bear

All your Pande----Gotta go!


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

I never guess, I assume
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  based on my experience. Basically, I don't worry about it.


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> i deserve some kind of award for the longest meandering thread ever!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How far can we make this go?


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## herkysprings (Jul 12, 2010)

I think there are some things to be said about his products at differnet levels

Medium 2336 = approx the WSM 22.5"

Just by comparing feaures and estimated cooking capacity, the WSM looks like a much better deal. Now, his products go much larger than the WSM, and perhapse this is where they may shine.

I think that people who like the smell / taste of the meat juices hitting the coals and a cooker that does not need much tending  (assuming this fact) would like these. As an individual who cannot manufacture his own stuff, I would rather have a well put together product that works out of the box, rather than make my own and fiddle for months.

Personally I like the access to coals I get with my WSM, and offset rather than a sealed setup like the drums.

At the Mega 3143 level you can almost get a horizon offset, so it depends on what you want to pay for.


pandemonium said:


> talk about price gouging


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## daddyzaring (Jul 12, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> i deserve some kind of award for the longest meandering thread ever!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

You Rock Daddy LOL


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## Bearcarver (Jul 12, 2010)

AK1 said:


> I never guess, I assume
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL---Thanks, now I get it, you know what they say about "Assume".
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Worrying is an old habit I picked up when others started eating my cooking.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


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## ak1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---Thanks, now I get it, you know what they say about "Assume".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thing is, in 30+ years of cooking, I haven't had an issue yet. 

I know how I prep my food, where it comes from etc. I've always bought meat from local butchers who get it from local farmers. I've also met these farmers and saw how they raise their animals.


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## tom37 (Jul 12, 2010)

LMAO thinking page 7 is in the near future!!!!

looking at the history here, we have gone from a passionate discussion about a guy making alot of money making drums to people getting there meat probed in an unsanitary manar. ( sounds kinds bad don't it)  back to the drum guy making money, and on to farmers maybe passionatly raising there animals.

OMG where will it go next????

the sad but funny part is driving home tonight I was thinking ( huh, wonder what was posted on pan's thread today????)  Then I laugh to myself thinking what was posted yesterday.

We are now one post closer to page 7.

Now I'm thinkin about all the mega rare steaks I eat.


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## pandemonium (Jul 12, 2010)

Tom you just got me thinking again (ohh noo)  something along the lines of a meat injection and a friendly farmer haha just how passionate is this farmer AK? I hear it gets real lonely in them fields.

Page 7 here we come!!!


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## tom37 (Jul 12, 2010)

OMG ......... thanks Pan, now i'm laughin so freakin hard my eyes are watering and I can hardly see to type.

In this situation does the outside 1/2 inch really matter????

I sure hope Jeff don't put me in timeout for stirring the pot.


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## wingman (Jul 12, 2010)

Don't get him coming after ewe. I mean you. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Damn typos


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Tom37 said:


> OMG ......... thanks Pan, now i'm laughin so freakin hard my eyes are watering and I can hardly see to type.
> 
> In this situation does the outside 1/2 inch really matter????
> 
> I sure hope Jeff don't put me in timeout for stirring the pot.


Sometimes i hear tale that the first half inch is all they get period!!!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> Thing is, in 30+ years of cooking, I haven't had an issue yet.
> 
> I know how I prep my food, where it comes from etc. I've always bought meat from local butchers who get it from local farmers. I've also met these farmers and saw how they raise their animals.


So this is how you help others?

Many want to know:

How do I know if I got through the danger zone in time, if I don't probe the meat?

Don't probe it, just get the outer 1/2" through, without probing it.

How do I know know for sure if the outer 1/2" got through the danger zone, if I don't break the surface?

"AKI" Answers to all people wanting to know, including Newbis:

It's plenty hot. (Oh?)

I just know. (I'm brilliant)

I Assume. (Duh)

I have a lot of experience. (Yea!!!!)

Thing is, in 30+ years of cooking, I haven't had an issue yet. [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]  [/color](Wow!)

I know how I prep my food, where it comes from etc. (Then it doesn't matter how you cook it?)

I've always bought meat from local butchers who get it from local farmers. (Another great answer)

I've also met these farmers and saw how they raise their animals. (That makes them bacteria free?)

Which one of your answers above will help anyone trying to learn.

Instead of bragging about your vast experience & know how, share some of it with others. Answer the questions. With all of your experience & brilliance, you must know the answer.

Sounds like I'm being a smart-azz, but look at your answers to the questions.


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## ddave (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> I understand that, but as much as we all know it should be hot enough, we don't know if it's really 140˚ at 1/2" deep inside the meat, unless we measure it. If you know that, you are psychic. *Anything else is just guessing---Right?*


Wrong.  Not as long as the laws of physics and thermodynamics apply.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





As bbally stated in the original thread.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/fo...afety-and-low-and-slow-discussion#post_267261


> The "intact muscle" rule for commercial USDA products allows an intact muscle to be cooked to rare using low temp. Provided it has not been punctured.
> 
> Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. *Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.*


 As long as your smoker is above the temps that he stated, then the outer 1/2" should pass through 140° in four hours.

If in doubt, throw a hunk of meat on a 200°+ smoker, wait 4 hours then probe the outer 1/2".  That's probably what was done in testing and how the recommendation came to be.

Dave


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> So this is how you help others?
> 
> Many want to know:
> 
> ...


Bear, First of all I wasn't bragging. 

I just explained simply why I personally don't worry about it.

If you feel the need to be absolutely sure then by all means go ahead and measure the temp of the meat after 4 hrs in the smoker.


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> So this is how you help others?
> 
> Many want to know:
> 
> ...


Bear, I wasn't bragging, I was simply explaining why I personally don't worry about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you feel more comfortable knowing with certainty that the outside of the meat is in the safe zone then by all means go ahead and measure it after 4 hrs.


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Sorry, double post.


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Bear is on the prowl!! Good points there, and I have to agree it was AK being the smartass about it and you just called him out on it!! He didnt really answer the question?


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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

Folks who have been doing this for a while may pretty much know from past experienced (they probed the meat and cook within a certain range 180 - 250) when things are in the safe zone. They may feel comfortable not doing it. And more then likely there will be no issues.

It would be wise for folks starting out (newbies) to learn the proper methods and understand the why behind it all. They can however take a chance and maybe even a bigger chance. Get salmonella or some other food poisoning once and you will do it right from that point on even if doing it right is probing until you feel 100% you got the timing and temps down to go it without probing.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I throw my meats on the cooker and after a few hours do a firmness test so I know when (a guess) to put in the meat probes. I usually get it around 140 -150 degrees. Every now and then I miss the boat and get it at 135. But that's the core temp... I have always thought core temp was the target. Now if its the outer 1/2" (not punctured) the chances of error are much less.

Newbies, use your probes and at minimum you will have a the finished product cooked to the exact temp your looking for. Also, taking a food handlers safety class is not a bad idea if you have never taken one and want to get into cooking. Allot of folks who work or worked  in the food industry were required at one time to take these courses and they are very informative.

And those *UDS (BDS)* mentioned on page one by Pandimonium are still *way too expensive! My opinion... Yes! *Sorry...

OK... Just my 2 cents and on to page 8!


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

And those *UDS (BDS)* mentioned on page one by Pandimonium are still *way too expensive! My opinion... Yes! *Sorry...

OK... Just my 2 cents and on to page 8!

Snicker........Snicker


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)




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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> Bear is on the prowl!! Good points there, and I have to agree it was AK being the smartass about it and you just called him out on it!! He didnt really answer the question?


Thanks for having my back
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





And I did answer the question! 

My answer was, "I don't worry about it", and then I explained why.


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

well they way he laid your answers out was pretty good haha


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## herkysprings (Jul 13, 2010)

DDave said:


> If in doubt, throw a hunk of meat on a 200°+ smoker, wait 4 hours then probe the outer 1/2".  That's probably what was done in testing and how the recommendation came to be.
> 
> Dave


This is really your best bet here. Infact I have some what stopped using my Maverick completely in the meat. When I used it last, I only inserted after 3-4 hours anyway, as I wanted to flip the meat.

I stick with my therma pen for judging the meat at 2 times / temps:

1) Passing 140F

2) Done ness

This allows me to flip / rotate easier during a cook. If you maintain 200F+ and dont keep opening the lid, you'll learn then to check your temps after 3-4 hours. The therma pen is nice as the hole is small, but you still puncture the meat.
 

As luck as we all may have been, there are still some realities that need to be considered. Best practises I know have been:

1) Wash hands often

2) Try to always ahve a "dry" hand and "Wet" hand. This means one hand handles raw meat, the other handles rub / clean utencils. This will not only help keep your rub clean, but avoid cross contamination on to tools.

3) use gloves, and change them when needed

4) use clean equipment (trays / tongs)

5) use DIFFERENT equipment for raw meat vs done meat (past 140F)

6) dont lick your fingers after handling raw bbq meat / rub. ;)


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

So is it you're not suppose to probe until the outside 1/2" reaches 140 within 4 hours, or is it just the recommended method for unprobed meat?  What is the time and temp, or method if it has been probed or punctured?  Unless you butcher the animal yourself, I don't know how you can be 100% sure your meat hasn't been punctured in some way?


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> Bear, I wasn't bragging, I was simply explaining why I personally don't worry about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> If you feel more comfortable knowing with certainty that the outside of the meat is in the safe zone then by all means go ahead and measure it after 4 hrs.


I haven't been having a problem. I read the post by bbally yesterday 3 times, and I'm sure it is confusing to "Newbis". I'm just trying to find a step by step answer to give newbis when one asks the same questions I tried to get answered here. I was hoping a simple answer would come up from one of you 10, 20, and 30 year experienced guys. For a Butt, Chuckie, or Brisket, Would it be safe to say, "Keep your box above 225˚ for the first 4 hours, without a probe to get the outer 1/2" up over 140˚"? "Then put the probe in at  5 hours"?

This is all I'm looking for, an easy way to tell others a safe way to get through the danger zone (both the outer 1/2" & the center).

I know how to explain "simply" how to cure & smoke anything with "Tender Quick", and have taught many on this forum exactly that, but I need an easy way to help others how to "safely" do their regular smoking.

I'm still not sure what to tell them, other than read bbally's post.

I'll accept a good explanation from anyone, but please leave out Assumptions, Guesses, Premonitions, Theories of physics and thermodynamics, and VooDoo. I have enough of them of my own.

Thanks,

Bear

BTW: I had a small 3 pound Chuck that I probed before I started. Had it at 230˚(ACTUAL) the whole first 4 hours. At 4 hours it was exactly 140˚. That would mean to me, at 225˚, it would not have been to 140˚ at 4 hours. I've seen a lot of posts that had Qview with probes in the meat at the start. I guess since nobody else has chimed up and told of a test, I guess I'll have to try it myself. I'll run something up to 4 hours at 225˚ without a probe. Then I'll take my Thermopen and test it 1/2" deep at various places to see what reading I get. If it's way high, I might probe deeper
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  and record a few measurements. Then maybe I'll feel safe in telling others what my readings were, after doing those actions. I don't want to tell people it's safe because I assume it, or Centrifical force, Gravity, and the  Pythagorean Theory say it is.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> Thanks for having my back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bet you help a lot of others with that answer.


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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

You guys are cracking me up. Ok I'm buing this round! On to page 8!


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Bear your cracking me up with the warlock and voodoo stuff lol am I missing something or is AK a warlock?


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

pandemonium said:


> well they way he laid your answers out was pretty good haha


I enjoyed it!

However, as you know, it's hard sometimes to get the nuances down just reading words on a screen. Smiley's, Haha's, LOL's only help so much. We miss so much that gives true meaning and understanding to conversation. Especially in a thread like this where much of it seems to be some good natured BSing.

What I'm getting from Bear's posts is that he is very concerned about meat temps and want's to know exactly what's going on. So given that, my reply of going on "a Wing & a Prayer" may have been construed as frivolous, when in reality it isn't. I've cooked enough roasts over the years that I'm comfortable knowing how they are going to react. I don't need to use a therm, as I did with the first few. Same with chicken, turkey, pork, etc.


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Bet you help a lot of others with that answer.


No, not really
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I actually have a proper answer that I use when I want to help someone.


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> I haven't been having a problem. I read the post by bbally yesterday 3 times, and I'm sure it is confusing to "Newbis". I'm just trying to find a step by step answer to give newbis when one asks the same questions I tried to get answered here. I was hoping a simple answer would come up from one of you 10, 20, and 30 year experienced guys. For a Butt, Chuckie, or Brisket, Would it be safe to say, "Keep your box above 225Ëš for the first 4 hours, without a probe to get the outer 1/2" up over 140Ëš"? "Then put the probe in at  5 hours"?
> 
> This is all I'm looking for, an easy way to tell others a safe way to get through the danger zone (both the outer 1/2" & the center).
> 
> ...


OK, here's the simple way to do it.

Make sure your probe is nice and clean, and before you insert it give it a good sterilizing wipe. To  be safe, you can wipe the meat with some alcohol where the probe goes in. Insert the probe just under the surface to no more than 1/2". Now, put the meat on the smoker/cooker/oven whatever, and make sure it hits 140 within 4 hrs.


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)




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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

Guys maybe we are just making things way to difficult. Did you like the pitcher of beer? Anyway... This may help...







Actually these are no help... But this thing has gotten no where so... Lets go now where faster!


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)




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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

I never got a reply on this?

 


daddyzaring said:


> So is it you're not suppose to probe until the outside 1/2" reaches 140 within 4 hours, or is it just the recommended method for unprobed meat?  What is the time and temp, or method if it has been probed or punctured?  Unless you butcher the animal yourself, I don't know how you can be 100% sure your meat hasn't been punctured in some way?


You do mean a strong drinking alcohol, right?  You should probably be a little more specific for those that they make warning lables for. lol


 


AK1 said:


> OK, here's the simple way to do it.
> 
> Make sure your probe is nice and clean, and before you insert it give it a good sterilizing wipe. To  be safe, you can wipe the meat with some alcohol where the probe goes in. Insert the probe just under the surface to no more than 1/2". Now, put the meat on the smoker/cooker/oven whatever, and make sure it hits 140 within 4 hrs.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> OK, here's the simple way to do it.
> 
> Make sure your probe is nice and clean, and before you insert it give it a good sterilizing wipe. To  be safe, you can wipe the meat with some alcohol where the probe goes in. Insert the probe just under the surface to no more than 1/2". Now, put the meat on the smoker/cooker/oven whatever, and make sure it hits 140 within 4 hrs.


Be still my heart!

AK1----I like that much better than my idea above. I have a Thermopen, I have alcohol wipes. I will be doing that, taking more readings after that happens, saving those readings, and I'll eventually be prepared to use that to explain to anyone.

Whew---That was hard to get. I used to beat things out of guys in bars with a lot less trouble than that!

Don't think I was picking on you----Those questions were open to anyone. You just came up with the best answer I heard yet------THANKS!

Bear


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Be still my heart!
> 
> AK1----I like that much better than my idea above. I have a Thermopen, I have alcohol wipes. I will be doing that, taking more readings after that happens, saving those readings, and I'll eventually be prepared to use that to explain to anyone.
> 
> ...


See Bear, that'll teach you!!! You want a serious answer, don't ask in this thread


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

You can use alcohol wipes on food utensils?  Isn't that like rubbing alcohol?  I didn't think that was safe to use that way?


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Be still my heart!
> 
> AK1----I like that much better than my idea above. I have a Thermopen, I have alcohol wipes. I will be doing that, taking more readings after that happens, saving those readings, and I'll eventually be prepared to use that to explain to anyone.
> 
> ...







daddyzaring said:


> I never got a reply on this?
> 
> 
> 
> You do mean a strong drinking alcohol, right?  You should probably be a little more specific for those that they make warning lables for. lol


Yeah that would work! Although, If you drank enough, then you wouldn't have to worry 'cause the alcohol in yer gut would probably sterilize the meat after you ate it


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

daddyzaring said:


> You can use alcohol wipes on food utensils?  Isn't that like rubbing alcohol?  I didn't think that was safe to use that way?


It's fine. It's not like you're drinking a bunch.of it.

Oh by the way; @ Pandemonium, I do agree with you that the BDS is expensive, but I still think that there is a chance the price may be justified. If you dont agree,   BITE ME!!!


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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

You guys are getting too mushy now. I liked things the way it was. Pokes, jabs witty banter and virtual beers! Enough of the group hugs!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

Wingman said:


> You guys are getting too mushy now. I liked things the way it was. Pokes, jabs witty banter and virtual beers! Enough of the group hugs!


Wing Ding,

You'll have to start a new battle, if you want to keep this thread going----AK1 gave me a good answer!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

Would a high proof drinking alcohol work as well?  I'd feel better using something that is safe to consume, especially if applying to food?

 


AK1 said:


> It's fine. It's not like you're drinking a bunch.of it.
> 
> Oh by the way; @ Pandemonium, I do agree with you that the BDS is expensive, but I still think that there is a chance the price may be justified. If you dont agree,   BITE ME!!!


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Well now i feel like im in a waltons episode at the end!!

Goodnight bear, daddy, ak, wingman, johnboy yall sleep tight now ya hear!!!


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Just kidding screw those damn overpriced uds's


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

Sure---Tequila !

But only if you run the probe through the worm.

Bear


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

At the risk of upsetting Bear, by not giving a definitive answer.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I'd do it. I'm ASSUMING with my PSYCHIC POWERS that it would work.

Seriously though, I couldn't tell you for sure. I would think that a good whisky would do the trick. You might want to give it a few swabs just to be safe.


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Sure---Tequila !
> 
> But only if you run the probe through the worm.
> 
> Bear


That's just wrong


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> At the risk of upsetting Bear, by not giving a definitive answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL----That aint gonna work, I got my answer----I'm happy now.

I get testy when I spend a lot of time asking a serious question, and it looks like I'm never gonna get an answer.

Comes with age---Don't have that many years to wait for an answer.

Bear


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Comes with age---Don't have that many years to wait for an answer.
> 
> Bear


Don't worry about it then
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





As Bobby McFarren said; "Don't Worry, Be Happy"!


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## ddave (Jul 13, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> I'll accept a good explanation from anyone, but please *leave out* Assumptions, Guesses, Premonitions, *Theories of physics and thermodynamics*, and VooDoo. I have enough of them of my own.
> I guess I'll have to try it myself. I'll run something up to 4 hours at 225Ëš without a probe. Then I'll take my Thermopen and test it 1/2" deep at various places to see what reading I get. If it's way high, I might probe deeper
> 
> 
> ...


What is it that you think will make your test results repeatable if not the laws of physics and thermodynamics?  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Without them your results would be meaningless because you could not be reasonably sure that it would work that way every time as long as you kept the conditions (smoker temp, size of the cut of meat, initial temp of the meat etc) consistent.

Really, Bear, I'm not trying to be a smartass here (not that I would be above that 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 ) but I'm not in this case.

And I do applaud your tenacity for getting your question answered.

Dave


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

I was thinking more along the lines of everclear, it's close to 100% alcohol.

 


Bearcarver said:


> Sure---Tequila !
> 
> But only if you run the probe through the worm.
> 
> Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jul 13, 2010)

DDave said:


> What is it that you think will make your test results repeatable if not the laws of physics and thermodynamics?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

daddyzaring said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of everclear, it's close to 100% alcohol.


SWEET!!!! Can ya drink it


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

But, isn't the meat a variable to begin with.  Between different cuts there will be differences, i.e. meat to fat ratio, thickness....


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## pineywoods (Jul 13, 2010)

Such a long thread with so much BS here lets try this

*Smokeguy wrote*
Bob, On the matter of not inserting the probe into say a standing rib roast because then it's not a whole muscle anymore and your finished temp isn't high enough for ground now, what is the proper way to figure out the temperature if you're going for say, 131 degrees, without just guessing? There is a ton of difference in smoking one at lower temps and grilling/oven cooking one at much higher temps even with the eventual resting temperature increases (my oven baked one for Christmas was way overdone because the temp rose so much after I took it out and let it rest, unlike the relatively smaller temp rise from smoking one at lower temps I've had).
Use a sanitizer on the probe first? Or?

*bbally wrote*
The end part of the whole muscle HACCP method is:
Prepare the meat, start to cook the meat, when the surface temperature of the meat has been above 140 F for 15 minutes, sterilize your probe and insert it into the meat cook til finished
  

*Smokeguy wrote*
What if you want to take it out of the smoker at 131 F and eat it at a still-might-be-mooing 139? It'll never get high enough to insert a probe based off of HACCP, so....what do I do now?

Is this the reason you defrost in the microwave in stages of on and off and let it rest/equalize at the end of a nuking session?

*Fatbaack Joe wrote*
I think you are confusing internal and external temp. When the external temp of the meat is 140 the internal will still be well below it

*bbally wrote*
The outside of the meat, not the inside... you should never be running a smoker below 200 F unless you are doing a full cure cold smoke using Nitrate not nitrite. With the cooker at 200 F the meat outside will be sterile in less than 30 minutes.
You can pull the meat at any temp you want to.... after the outside has pasteurized it is up to you under the whole intact muscle rule

*Smokeguy wrote*
I should have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night because I think I'm starting to over-think this now.

If the meat outside is sterile at >200 F after >30 minutes, why can't I insert a sterilized probe into the meat anytime after 30 minutes and still be running under the whole intact muscle rule since there is no chance that I have introduced bacteria into the meat either from the probe or the outside of the meat?

ETA: My answer on even further thought....I *can* insert a sterile probe because the OUTSIDE is also "sterile" after 30 minutes. Right?

*bbally wrote*
Correct, after the outside has passed through the temp zone you can insert the probe   

.


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## eman (Jul 13, 2010)

AK1 said:


> SWEET!!!! Can ya drink it


Yes you can .BUT!!! You don't want to.


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

Yes you can drink it, you can light it on fire, or you can run it in you car (though I wouldn't recomend, it burns very hot).  It's one step below moonshine.

 


AK1 said:


> SWEET!!!! Can ya drink it


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## ak1 (Jul 13, 2010)

eman said:


> Yes you can .BUT!!! You don't want to.


Darn!!!

I figured if I drank that, I could give Bear even better answers


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

If you mix it with the right juice you can't even taste it, you will feel it, but you won't tast it.  lol

 


eman said:


> Yes you can .BUT!!! You don't want to.


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Who hijacked my thread?  I  stay away from probing threads and what do you people do? you bring it to me!! bs i say!!


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## herkysprings (Jul 13, 2010)

I thinks its all more like guidelines. The best thing you can do is having proper kitchen / food handling when the meat is raw, including storage in the fridge. Keep your tools clean, wash off your probe ends, dont use tongs on cooked meat that was used for raw, wash your hands, etc.

If you put a clean probe in raw meat before going into the cooker, and the meat was handled properly, you are probably going to be ok, assuming the meat gets cooked properly.

If you put a dirty, nasty probe in a piece of meat after the outside 1/2" reaches 140F, and dont cook it properly, and the meat was not handled well prior to cooking, you could have some issues.

Since the idea is that you need to be out of the 140F zone by at least 4 hours, you could start off by waiting until 3 hours into your cooking, then put the probe in, giving you an hour to adjust. Even probe at 4 hours and decide.

From what I remember: (dont quote me)

Pork and chicken must be cooked to an internal temp of 165F ish in order to ensure all harmful bacteria is killed.

The outside surface area of beef must be cooked to 145F for the same result.
 


daddyzaring said:


> So is it you're not suppose to probe until the outside 1/2" reaches 140 within 4 hours, or is it just the recommended method for unprobed meat?  What is the time and temp, or method if it has been probed or punctured?  Unless you butcher the animal yourself, I don't know how you can be 100% sure your meat hasn't been punctured in some way?


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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

Well Pineywoods... If you want to get technical... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  The probing stuff should have been moved to its own thread as this was a thread discussing the "Still over priced" UDS products mentioned on Page 1. Since the thread did take the right turn onto the muddy road of BS at the fork in the road somewhere around Page three if my memory serves me I will again state the UDS (BDS) products are what the thread was about. And I *still* think they are *way too expensive *for what they are. And I'm having fun with a shot of truth mixed in...


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## pineywoods (Jul 13, 2010)

Well I have no opinion on the price of the UDS products so carry on


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

Pineywoods said:


> Well I have no opinion on the price of the UDS products so carry on


Ahh come on!!


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## meateater (Jul 13, 2010)

You all need a hobbie, maybe smoking meat would be in order.


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

Did you take a look at them?

http://www.bigdrumsmokers.com/index.htm
 


Pineywoods said:


> Well I have no opinion on the price of the UDS products so carry on


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## tom37 (Jul 13, 2010)

Clean the probes????   You mean I am suppose to do that!!!!!!!!

I just figured they were like the old charcoal grill out back, the more build up on the grates the better the taste! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Ya Know...... I saw on TV once, an Indian cutting up an animal for dinner and when his knife got dirty he just wiped it on his leg a time or two and it was good to go again. And one time I saw Rambo give him self stitches.

If its on the TV or in a comic book, its law isn't it.

Now I'm shooting for page 10. We should make it by bedtime.


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## pandemonium (Jul 13, 2010)

chug chug chug chug All aboard the train!! Next stop page ten where the idiots roam!!! and the uds prices are disgustingly high!!! chug chug chug!!!! THE BEER TRAIN!!!!


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## wingman (Jul 13, 2010)

meateater said:


> You all need a hobbie, maybe smoking meat would be in order.


Ah smoking meat! I remember that... Just pulled some Peach smoked Salmon with a Sweet Garlic marinade off the smoker. I'll post in another thread.


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## tom37 (Jul 13, 2010)

Well pan the way I am seeing this is, we have 1721 views and only 173 post.

I think there is a ton of folks that are not wanting to have a healthy debate. But they sure want to watch. LMAO

Come on folks, jump in with both feet, we need opinions here. Even if they make no sence at all.


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## daddyzaring (Jul 13, 2010)

No page 10 yet?  You guys are getting slow.

I have to say this post almost has it all, some serious discussion, a little education, and just enough good hearted fun and humor.  Just need a little qview. lol


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## tom37 (Jul 14, 2010)

Ok here goes. My dinner tonight was cold left over crappie, cheez-it duoz and a big oll coke. There was absolutely no preparation involved in this meal. Sharp scissors were helpful but not necessary to open the chez-its.


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## pandemonium (Jul 14, 2010)

ya i havent looked at the food threads in a long time, anything going on over there? nice meal Tom


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## daddyzaring (Jul 14, 2010)

That's one of the reasons I cook so much food when I cook, so there is always left overs for times like that, and I like to make new meals out of left overs too. lol

 


Tom37 said:


> Ok here goes. My dinner tonight was cold left over crappie, cheez-it duoz and a big oll coke. There was absolutely no preparation involved in this meal. Sharp scissors were helpful but not necessary to open the chez-its.


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## wingman (Jul 14, 2010)

Well crappie ain't half bad... Got to clean allot of them to get a full belly though. I had an amazing Salmon. I cold smoked it in my GOSM using the AMZE-N-SMOKER and peach sawdust. After 1.5 hours I mopped it with a Sugar, garlic, soy sauce, pepper, butter and lemon marinade. It's a sweet garlic marinade. Then into my smoker @ 225 for an hour until the salmon was firm but still moist. Mopped it once in mid stream. It came out amazing. I'm compiling the video now. I give it it's own thread. It;s a tasty recipe. This marinade is great on crappie too!

Yes! I pushed us over to page 10!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 14, 2010)

Sorry AK1,

Your explanation has now been demoted & deleted.

The real one was posted by Piney from a bbally post. It will be the one I will use to explain to others. It is simple & makes sense.

*bbally wrote*
The end part of the whole muscle HACCP method is:
Prepare the meat, start to cook the meat, when the surface temperature of the meat has been above 140 F for 15 minutes, sterilize your probe and insert it into the meat cook til finished.

This is for meat that has not been punctured previously. Any meat previously punctured, injected, or probed must go by the 40˚ to 140˚ in the center of said meat within 4 hours.


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## pandemonium (Jul 14, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Sorry AK1,
> 
> Your explanation has now been demoted & deleted.
> 
> ...


sounds easy enough


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## ak1 (Jul 14, 2010)

Damn! I feel rejected now!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 14, 2010)

AK1 said:


> Damn! I feel rejected now!


LOL---Yea, you feel rejected, and I feel like a Dentist.


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## ak1 (Jul 14, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---Yea, you feel rejected, and I feel like a Dentist.


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## pandemonium (Jul 14, 2010)

AK1 said:


>


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## pandemonium (Jul 14, 2010)

Well i guess i know how to kill a thread lol


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## daddyzaring (Jul 14, 2010)

That's a scary looking pic, on to page 11 quick...


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## pandemonium (Jul 14, 2010)

its even scarier what he says haha


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