# My smoker stayed at 175 all night with a boston butt in it...safe to continue ?



## lordramz

I thought it would go higher after I went to bed, but apparantly it didn't ... so from midnight to 6 AM the smoker was at 175 ..i marinated the pork, but did not probe it ...i moved it from the smoker to a dutch oven in my oven at 6 AM ..the oven has been set at 220 ...    this is for a party, am i safe here ?


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## SmokinAl

What was the internal temp of the meat when you moved it to the oven?


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## Bearcarver

Better ask bbally.

I know if the smoker temp was at 225˚ for a few hours it would be fine, but I don't know where that line would be drawn.

175˚ might have been too low.

I often wondered, but figured, the heck with it, I know 225˚ for 3 hours is safe, why worry about anything lower.

Thou shalt not fall asleep with temps that low.

Bear


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## alblancher

Yea, as the previous Al said,  we need to know the internal temps of the butt.  As long as it didn't take over 4 hours to get to an internal temp of 140 you are fine.  BUT you didn't use a thermo so we are just guessing.  You are Rolling the dice,  175 chamber temp is just to low to even guess what the internal temp on the butt got to.  Sorry.

You learned two important lessons,  use a thermo to monitor the internal temp of the meat,  you could have gone to bed with the cooking chamber at 170 if you had gotten to the magic 140 internal before leaving it.  

Good Luck,

Sorry I can't tell you yes or no on this one.

Don't forget to go to the new members section and introduce yourself, we will be able to help out a lot more once we have an idea of what equipment your are using and your experience level.

Al


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## SmokinAl

Well said Al.


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## lordramz

didn't check the internal when I moved it :(


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## lordramz

at 10 AM it was at 160 FWIW


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## scarbelly

Based on what you just posted, I would toss it out.  Not worth it to me to take a chance


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## tom37

I gotta go with the general census here. 

You could still save the party. If theres a sams close, the prepackaged smoked brisket is pretty decent. We have used it to get out of a jam a time or two. 

Good luck with the party.


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## alblancher

There again if you don't mind playing dice with the trots you could cut it up, cook it a long time in liquid and fix sandwiches for work.  Might be a good way to get off of work for an afternoon.  I have yet to find a boss that wouldn't let you go home when he sees you hugging the porcelain god in the men's room.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






But I wouldn't do it to anyone that may  not have a strong constitution and could get real sick from a bad meal.

Al


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## SmokinAl

160 at 10:00 AM? In the trash. I wouldn't even give it to the dog


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## lordramz

i went and picked up some sweet baby rays precooked brisket :(

I was gonna try the pork myself, but now I guess yall have talked me out of it


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## pineywoods

lordramz said:


> i went and picked up some sweet baby rays precooked brisket :(
> 
> I was gonna try the pork myself, but now I guess yall have talked me out of it


Good call that was just too low for too long to take the chance


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## ak1

Good call. There were too many unknowns with the butt to take a chance. It's always better to be safe rather than sorry.
 


lordramz said:


> i went and picked up some sweet baby rays precooked brisket :(
> 
> I was gonna try the pork myself, but now I guess yall have talked me out of it


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## Bearcarver

alblancher said:


> Yea, as the previous Al said,  we need to know the internal temps of the butt.  As long as it didn't take over 4 hours to get to an internal temp of 140 you are fine.  BUT you didn't use a thermo so we are just guessing.  You are Rolling the dice,  175 chamber temp is just to low to even guess what the internal temp on the butt got to.  Sorry.
> 
> You learned two important lessons,  use a thermo to monitor the internal temp of the meat,  you could have gone to bed with the cooking chamber at 170 if you had gotten to the magic 140 internal before leaving it.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Sorry I can't tell you yes or no on this one.
> 
> Don't forget to go to the new members section and introduce yourself, we will be able to help out a lot more once we have an idea of what equipment your are using and your experience level.
> 
> Al


I would have said that, but in this case he didn't have to get the internal temp to 140˚ in 4 hours, because he didn't probe the meat.

I said to ask bbally about it, because he may know where the lower limit is for the other exception.

I know if you have a whole muscle type piece of meat that wasn't punctured, in a smoker at 225˚ for 3 hours, it is safe, but I don't know if that would be good for 200˚ for so long, or 175˚ for so long. I would certainly doubt that it would be good at 175˚, but I don't think I ever heard what the absolute minimum is---Maybe 225˚ is the minimum.

I never cared to look into it before, because I was happy with the 225˚ for 3 hours.

I think it would be good to know this rule better than I do. I think Bob knows more about it & where to read about it.

Bear


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## chefrob

steamships are never done (correctly) in 4 hrs but i'll let bob weigh in on this one.........


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## beer-b-q

I sure wouldn't chance it...  I agree with everyone on tossing it...


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## ak1

As far as the 40-140 guideline goes, I think that it applies to the outside 1/4" on whole muscle meat not the centre.


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## alblancher

I've looked over the codes I could find and did not see a safe temp for pork roasts that involved higher cooking chamber temps  for short periods of time.  In addition to the internal temp vs time tables as provided by CRF318.10 this statement was included

(iii) The time to raise product temperature from 60 ° F. to 120 ° F shall not exceed 2 hours unless the product is   cured or fermented

  

318.17 Concerning Beef

In addition to the internal temp vs time charts similar to the charts for pork listed in CRF318.10 

roasted shall be cooked by one of thefollowing methods:

(1) Heating roasts of 10 pounds or more in an oven maintained at 250 °F (121 °C) or higher throughout the process;

(2) Heating roasts of any size to a minimum internal temperature of 145°F (62.8 °C) in an oven maintained at any temperature if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained either by continuously introducing steam for 50 percent of the cooking time or by use of a sealed oven for over 50 percent of the cooking time, or if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained at 90 percent or above for at least 25 percent of the total cooking time, but in no case less than 1 hour; or

(3) Heating roasts of any size in an oven maintained at any temperature that will satisfy the internal temperature and time requirements of paragraph

(a) of this section if the relative humidity of the oven is maintained at 90 percent or above for at least 25 percent of the total cooking time, but in no case less than 1 hour.

The relative humidity may be achieved by use of steam injection or by sealed ovens capable of producing and maintaining the required relative humidity.

    

Additional food codes state:

(C) _A raw or undercooked whole-muscle, intact beef steak may be served or offered for sale in a ready-to-eat form if:_  
(1) _The food establishment serves a population that is not a highly susceptible population,_
(2) _The steak is labeled to indicate that it meets the definition of _*"*_whole-muscle, intact beef_*"*_ as specified under ¶ 3-201.11(E), and_
(3) _The steak is cooked on both the top and bottom to a surface temperature of 63[sup]o[/sup]C (145[sup]o[/sup]F) or above and a cooked color change is achieved on all external surfaces_

    

There are many ways to draw incorrect inferences from these food laws.  Confusing regs intended for beef with regs for pork, steaks for roasts, smoking for high humidity cooking is a way to come to incorrect conclusions.

I don't know for sure if there is a safe temp for searing roasts, I couldn't find it.

Al


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## bbally

First, in the future when you have an oven temperature failure (or smoker or whatever the heck you choose as the thing to make the heat) always always check the temp when it came out.  This allows you to figure the pasteurization process and whether it could apply.

That said, pork and beef can be treated the same under whole intact muscle.  This says to me that the meat is being treated as a standing rib roast or steamship round.

I just want everyone to know why...... I analyze the hazards that could apply... since the cooker temp was above the 140 F level the real concern for this meat becomes C. Botulism.  So we are dealing with a problem that needs high humidity, and lack of oxygen.  This is your main concern.   Two things can be looked at to assess the chances... mechnical puncturing of the muscle group, and where did this meat come from and when did it first get exposed to outside contaminates?

Since lots of people use garlic with pork... that becomes the main vehicle for adding botulism to the formula.

If it was injected I would probably toss... if it was injected with garlic in the mix I would definately toss.

However, I would serve this with no problem with a few conditions:

It was not injected or mechanically tenderized.

It was taken to a final temperature exceeding 162 F for 15 seconds.  (because it is pork I like a more safety oriented temp finish... on beef I would do a different temp, that would be way lower then 140 F  more like 132 F or so)

The pork in question was taken by you, or in front of you, out of the vacuum packaging so you know you were the first to expose it to outside contaminates.

That is my 2 cents on the deal.... I know many called for it to be tossed... they are not wrong... but with the amount of experience I and others have in cooking large intact muscle groups at low temps I would go with it because of your final finish temperture and a lack of mechanical puncturing.  The length of time and final temp will take care of the poison if somehow it got E-coli or another nasty surface problem... the big concern really is Botulism...... hence my insistance that is not have been injected. 

If you don't feel you know the meat and how it was handled, toss it,..... if you have a great idea of the meat was right out of the cyro I would use it.

In the end you have to be confident that the food you serve is safe... I could get there with the thinking above..... the question for you is "can you?"


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## Bearcarver

bbally said:


> First, in the future when you have an oven temperature failure (or smoker or whatever the heck you choose as the thing to make the heat) always always check the temp when it came out.  This allows you to figure the pasteurization process and whether it could apply.
> 
> That said, pork and beef can be treated the same under whole intact muscle.  This says to me that the meat is being treated as a standing rib roast or steamship round.
> 
> I just want everyone to know why...... I analyze the hazards that could apply... since the cooker temp was above the 140 F level the real concern for this meat becomes C. Botulism.  So we are dealing with a problem that needs high humidity, and lack of oxygen.  This is your main concern.   Two things can be looked at to assess the chances... mechnical puncturing of the muscle group, and where did this meat come from and when did it first get exposed to outside contaminates?
> 
> Since lots of people use garlic with pork... that becomes the main vehicle for adding botulism to the formula.
> 
> If it was injected I would probably toss... if it was injected with garlic in the mix I would definately toss.
> 
> However, I would serve this with no problem with a few conditions:
> 
> It was not injected or mechanically tenderized.
> 
> It was taken to a final temperature exceeding 162 F for 15 seconds.  (because it is pork I like a more safety oriented temp finish... on beef I would do a different temp, that would be way lower then 140 F  more like 132 F or so)
> 
> The pork in question was taken by you, or in front of you, out of the vacuum packaging so you know you were the first to expose it to outside contaminates.
> 
> That is my 2 cents on the deal.... I know many called for it to be tossed... they are not wrong... but with the amount of experience I and others have in cooking large intact muscle groups at low temps I would go with it because of your final finish temperture and a lack of mechanical puncturing.  The length of time and final temp will take care of the poison if somehow it got E-coli or another nasty surface problem... the big concern really is Botulism...... hence my insistance that is not have been injected.
> 
> If you don't feel you know the meat and how it was handled, toss it,..... if you have a great idea of the meat was right out of the cyro I would use it.


Thanks Bob,

This is what I was referring to & trying to explain in my two posts above, but since I only know about 5% of what you know about that, I couldn't explain it like you just did.

The thing that made me think it might not have to be thrown away was, as I mentioned a few times above, it was not probed or injected.

At least now others might know I wasn't just babbling.

Thanks Again,

Bear

BTW: This is why I NEVER insert a temperature probe in a non-cured meat until, 2, 3, or even sometimes 4 hours into the smoke.

I used to, but not since I learned this thing from Bob.

If you insert a probe at the beginning, you are stuck with that 40˚ to 140˚ in 4 hours rule!

I never did like sweating those 4 hours out!


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## pineywoods

I thought the Intact Muscle Rule would apply and that the outer .5 inches would have to get to 140 in under 4 hours. Would this happen at a smoker temp of 175 in past threads I have seen Bob post this is easily done at smoker temps of 200 degrees or more.


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## Bearcarver

Pineywoods said:


> I thought the Intact Muscle Rule would apply and that the outer .5 inches would have to get to 140 in under 4 hours. Would this happen at a smoker temp of 175 in past threads I have seen Bob post this is easily done at smoker temps of 200 degrees or more.




That was my earlier question too. I guess we could take a cheap piece of meat---hold 175˚ for 4 hours, then use a "quick" probe to check the outer 1/2" all around. I don't know any other way to find out. 

Or we could just not probe for the first couple hours at 225˚ or better, like I have been doing, and never find out if 175˚ is high enough.

Bear


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## alblancher

When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures. 

In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.

BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.

Al


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## Bearcarver

alblancher said:


> When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures.
> 
> In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.
> 
> BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.
> 
> Al


No argument here. Those were my first thoughts too, until I noticed he didn't probe or inject. If he would have injected or probed, the whole ballgame would be thrown out & default to that 40˚ to 140˚ in 4 hours rule.

I tried to explain the Intact Muscle Rule, that Jerry pointed me to bbally a long time ago about, but everybody seemed to ignore what I was saying.

I figured it was just that I wasn't explaining it very well, so I called in the master. It's so much easier to understand when he explains it.

Bear


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## alblancher

So Bear,

Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering. 

I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative. 

Al


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## Bearcarver

alblancher said:


> So Bear,
> 
> Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering.
> 
> I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative.
> 
> Al


Marinating with garlic doesn't hurt.

I wouldn't turn it or stab it with a fork, or anything else.

He didn't say he stabbed it.

How many posts leave how long they marinate out, but as long as it's not for days, I don't worry about it.

I would hope it was marinated in cold water like any other time.

Bear


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## pineywoods

It sure seems that the Food Safety standards have so many if this and if that that the whole thing is confusing and pretty useless if you don't have an expert there to decipher it for you


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## scarbelly

Thanks Bob

I think we all agree that knowing the exact status of the meat from opening to final pull and temp would have given us a better sense of what options we could have offered up. That said, not having your experience and not knowing the all the details the only safe call fou us, as you pointed out, was to toss.

Thanks for taking the time to go thru the entire explanation process. I learn so much from you all the time


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## bbally

alblancher said:


> When I read a post lacking information I  "fill in the blanks" assuming the OP practiced normal sanitary handling procedures.
> 
> In this post when no chamber temp (other then the 175) was provided, no internal temp was provided, no length of time in the chamber before leaving unattended was provided I jumped to the conclusion that the entire procedure was compromised and based my recommendations on that.   I see no reason to change my belief that the product is dangerous.
> 
> BBALLY, I am going to save your reply on my hard drive,  you may see it cited again sometime in the future.  Thanks for the information and the lesson.
> 
> Al


As I said in my post, those that called for tossing it out were NOT wrong. In a situation where a person finds themselves without the information, or the experience, or the knowledge to make an informed decision I would totally agree with tossing it in the can.  In this situation if it got tossed I would not argue with that decision.

I posted what I posted so some of you that have been doing this for a long time (you included) can have more advanced understanding that the foodcode is a set of guidelines intended to help you evaluate a situation.

175 F will bring intact muscle on the outer 0.5 inches to the proper temp in plenty of time.   How do I know?  I cook prime rib many times in the AltoSham... generally set to the 175 F to 185 F holding temperature.  This is a common practice in convention centers across the country.


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## bbally

alblancher said:


> So Bear,
> 
> Do you think the meat is safe if he marinated with fresh garlic and turned the meat with a fork or knife tip?  How many fork stabs are safe?  I hate to ask if he did because this is an exercise for the rest of us not necessarily a reply to his question.  No indication of how long in the marinade, no idea of temp of the marinade or ingredients.  I've seen Jerry get nervous because he didn't have any alcohol to rub the thermos when he was prepping meat for the N Florida Gathering.
> 
> I am glad we revisited the whole muscle discussion, it was very informative.
> 
> Al


Fork stabs or Knife stabs would change the reply.  That is why I qualified it with the intact muscle rule.  If that was violated the response would not apply.


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## bbally

Pineywoods said:


> It sure seems that the Food Safety standards have so many if this and if that that the whole thing is confusing and pretty useless if you don't have an expert there to decipher it for you




Realize the food safety standards are guidelines that allow a person to set up a safe way to do what they are trying to do......  Experience helps, and having to put up with a health inspector once per week helps also... many times they are wrong and I have to show them... of course I am also wrong sometimes and they have to show me why in the guidelines.  Food safety is something that has to be practiced to the best methods being used now... and realize that there is no rule that cannot be tested and changed if data show a method that is not performing to keep people safe.


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## bbally

Bearcarver said:


> Marinating with garlic doesn't hurt.
> 
> I wouldn't turn it or stab it with a fork, or anything else.
> 
> He didn't say he stabbed it.
> 
> How many posts leave how long they marinate out, but as long as it's not for days, I don't worry about it.
> 
> I would hope it was marinated in cold water like any other time.
> 
> Bear




While basically correct, realize that marinating in Garlic under "oil only" can be a problem.  If there is water or vinegar not really a problem, but if someone is marinating in garlic and oil, and the garlic could be under the oil with no water or vinegar contact that could lead to a C. Botulism incubator.


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## alblancher

Here again I learned something,

When food safety guys say surface temp they mean the first 1/2 inch.  Makes sense to me.  I believe I read surface temp of 145 with noticeable color change was required

I know that I have started using tongs to handle meat during prep and on the grill instead of a fork for that very reason.  I also no longer use oil based marinades.  I will brush with butter or olive oil during cooking to help crisp the surface and develop a nice charred appearance 

Thanks everyone for a great discussion.

Al


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## fpnmf

I agree...very interesting and informative..

  Craig


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## gotarace

If a person can't learn something reading this great thread there is something wrong with them...Thank you for a thread that should be a sticky...some great knowledge on this board...


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## chefrob

bbally said:


> ......  Experience helps, and having to put up with a health inspector once per week helps also... many times they are wrong and I have to show them... of course I am also wrong sometimes and they have to show me why in the guidelines.  Food safety is something that has to be practiced to the best methods being used now... and realize that there is no rule that cannot be tested and changed if data show a method that is not performing to keep people safe.


this is so true, during an inspection i have actually had to go to the health department's website and print off a food code to prove that a young inspector was incorect and i had him fix my inspection report.


> Originally Posted by *bbally*
> 
> 175 F will bring intact muscle on the outer 0.5 inches to the proper temp in plenty of time.   How do I know? * I cook prime rib many times in the AltoSham... generally set to the 175 F to 185 F holding temperature.*   This is a common practice in convention centers across the country.


and this is where i based my comment from. i have for years cooked certain roasts @ or below 200 deg for really long periods of time and like bob said this is very common in the industry. however i have never done a pork roast @175 but my thinking was it was still an unpunctured intact muscle and the same rules would apply. also to bring the first quote round circle i once had a conversation with an inspector about extremely long low heat cooks and he said i don't care how long it takes as long as the muscle is not comprimized and you eventually get to the correct temp, he was gong to be o.k. with it.


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## chefrob

alblancher said:


> I know that I have started using tongs to handle meat during prep and on the grill instead of a fork for that very reason.


i have never understood why so many use forks, turners, and pokers.............tongs are like a natural extention of my hands for me.


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## pineywoods

I had seen where Bob had in the past posted that the outer .5" would get to the 140 degree mark easily at 200 or above but had never seen him say that it would pass it at the 175 smoker temps so I guess I too learned something new


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## Bearcarver

bbally said:


> While basically correct, realize that marinating in Garlic under "oil only" can be a problem.  If there is water or vinegar not really a problem, but if someone is marinating in garlic and oil, and the garlic could be under the oil with no water or vinegar contact that could lead to a C. Botulism incubator.


Thanks Bob,

That's good to know for others more than for me.

I can only handle a very small amount of garlic flavor.

If I marinated anything in a lot of garlic & oil, I would have to toss it because of it's strong smell, before I puke!

I add garlic powder to most of my smokes, but not much.

The poster didn't say what he marinated it in anyway.

And thanks for explaining the 175˚ thing above too!

Bear


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## bbally

Pineywoods said:


> I had seen where Bob had in the past posted that the outer .5" would get to the 140 degree mark easily at 200 or above but had never seen him say that it would pass it at the 175 smoker temps so I guess I too learned something new




I usually post the normal household mantra from the FSIS.  However, so many of you are so experienced I feel it is not correct by holding information that will allow many to do the advanced techniques they are wanting to attempt.  With experience and knowledge people generally want to push on to "how do they make that standing rib come out so tender?" and they deserve to know how to do it safely.

I don't post a lot on the 155 to 199 F range of cooking, because to often it becomes some big ego driven thing, as in "Oh you cook at 190 F?, I cook at 175 F!" which indicates to me the thinking is not there yet for attempting this type of cooking.  I like to see "I am trying to do this, what are the problems I need to be thinking about?" this would get a full response from me.  As it is obvious this person realizes where they are going is outside the norm and they have a want to be doing it correctly.

You would not believe what we do with raw eggs in a commercial kitchen when making sauces.  All safe, but to the home cook... scary, but only because they don't have the information to understand what HACCP we are running it under and how we make it safe.

Anyway point is, for the site to stay vibrant we must start to help our members that are pushing out into the realm outside the everyday norm... or they will go else where for the information.  There are a whole host of people here that can answer those questions.


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## alelover

Very informative. I never knew garlic could cause botulism if not used properly.


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## alblancher

Lets have a "fermented sausages:"section and really push the boundaries of safe food techniques.  I am fascinated and really want to learn  what can be done with a converted refrigerator when it comes to making sausage with bacterial cultures and various humidity levels.

Maybe an advanced techniques section with the warning that "Only the experienced should enter here".

Nothing like learning from the experts

Al


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## bbally

alelover said:


> Very informative. I never knew garlic could cause botulism if not used properly.


One of the statistically common Botulism problems is home cooks trying to infuse oil with garlic.  They use raw garlic and submerge it in oil and sit it on the counter to grow botulism in a nice oxygen free environment.

Happens with other herbs as well, but garlic is the biggest culprit.


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