# Wet vs Dry, for Salmon.  Fresh vs frozen



## fpmich

Your input is welcomed.

I saw this on you tube.   It rather long video, so just skip ahead from time to time.  Make sure you don't miss too much though.

*I don't know who mods this forum, but I hope they will allow this link to vid*.   

I do wish, he would have done a shot of fish broken open so I could judge dryness/ and texture at the end.

His reason as to use what type cure for salmon, struck a cord with me. 

*When I smoked my first few fish, it was fresh caught and "not frozen".  *I used a wet brine, and it turned out fantastic!  No hard pellicle at all, dry enough to use for snack with crackers.  They weren't light and fluffy dinner type though.  Just like you buy in store, but better.

*Now last year,  ... as some of you may remember.   I had a very hard time smoking salmon.*   But those salmon had been frozen 3 or 4 weeks, and I used a wet brine.

Ended up with hard pellicle skin on top of meat, after smoking

1ST QUESTION IS:  Would I be better off using a dry brine for previously frozen fish?

2ND QUESTION IS:  How would I infuse flavors other than salt and sugar into fish?  Would dried herbs/spices/garlic added to mix, still be absorbed?  I've never dry brained before.

3RD QUESTION IS:  Is he correct in 8 hours, to 3-4 days, in dry brine, not matter for flavor or saltiness.

4TH QUESTION IS:  Am I better off starting at low 100* and gradually raise it to 200*, or just smoke at 150*-175*, or something like that, to oneness I like. 

Keep in mind like I a semi-soft pellicle on top.  Not super hard like last year.   Will higher temp keep top pellicle skin softer, or rather a lower temp for longer time.

PLEASE... ALL DRY BRAINING PURIST CHECK IN with recipes and knowledge.

Keep in mind I am smoking on a cheap offset smoker  with lots of air flow.  (which I believe contributed to my tougher pellicle finish) Not one of those electrics, or pellet, or sealed up expensive smokers.

Chimney vet wide open, and regulate heat from the fire box damper.


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## cmayna

Not having watched the video, I can say that I do a lot of Salmon.  All of my recipes use a dry brine of 4/1 ratio of dark brown sugar / non iodized salt.  Lots of fresh minced garlic added as well.  Assuming you are referring filet, which take the longest to brine, I go no longer than 7-8 hours.

Low and slow smoking.  I typically start at 125 and work my way up to 155+

I use two pretty old and inexpensive Big Chief electric smokers.  Nothing pretty, but they put out.


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## fpmich

*Thanks cmayna.*

I expected a few more replies by now, to some of my questions.   So I guess I'm on my own for the time being. 

This is my first time experimenting with a dry brine.

*I will be smoking more fish in the next couple of weeks, so any input is welcomed.*

Here is what I done so far, and plan to do later today.

Dry brine:

2 cups dark sugar to 1/2 cup Kosher salt.  I added some fresh ground pepper, garlic & onion powder (out of fresh garlic), a touch of dried dill weed, and Old Bay seasoning.   I love that stuff for almost everything.  Can't believe I lived all my life, before discovering Old Bay recently.  LOL

I put dry cure mix in bottom of glass pan, fish skin side down, and coated fish well with mix.  Added 3rd piece after coating and pressing in mix to flesh, skin side up on top of other pieces. Flesh to flesh with ample mix between, and then covered entire pan with rest of mix., covered with Saran, and placed another glass pan on top of it for a little weight.

I am leaving in brine for 8 hours.  I just rotated & turned the pieces and redistributed the cure the cure on them, at the 4 hour mark.  These were 3 half-fillets of salmon about 8" in length.  In other words, 1 & 1/2 fillets from whole fish.

I will rinse at 8 hour mark, cut into serving portions & put on racks in fridge for 8 - 12 hours.  Air dry with fan more if needed after fridge resting,  and then into smoker @ 80*-100* for an hour of cold-"semi-cold" smoke using one of Todd's gadgets, and increase chamber heat to 140*-160*.  Continue smoking until done @ 140* IT

Any obvious flaws in this plan?  If so please let me know.  I plan on smoking about 3 or 4 PM later today.


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## brayhaven

Please let us know how they came out. Do u rinse after cure?
Greg


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## superdave

I think a lot of the notion of smoked salmon really lies in whether one is truly trying to smoke salmon that will last for days as a preserved piece of meat or smoke/cook that produced an outstanding tasting piece of fish but doesn't have the lasting power for preservation.  When I smoke salmon, it doesn't last more than a couple of days so the technical aspects are near as critical.  Everything I know about true smoking of fish is that the fillet is supposed to be exposed to moving air until the pellicle forms before smoking.  It is part of the process. 

If one sees the proteins rising to the surface during cooking, it is a sign that the meat is cooking and further cooking will just dry out the fish.


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## cmayna

"I will rinse at 8 hour mark, cut into serving portions & put on racks in fridge for 8 - 12 hours"   

Whoa!  Why not cut into serving portions before you brine?  Otherwise you are exposing pieces of fish to the smoker which not all of their surfaces have been exposed to the brine.  What size are these serving surfaces?


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## fpmich

*cmayna, *the guy in the video also used a big chief to smoke his.

Wouldn't being in salt/sugar dry cure mix for 8 - 8 1/2 hours, have penetrated ALL of the meat evenly?  I left it in fridge another eight hours after rinsing and patting dry, but the cure should still be penetrating the meat wouldn't it?  I assumed it would, but... as we all know assuming something, is not always the best idea.  Just the quickest one.  LOL 

If there is a reason not to do it this way, then I will change my method.  I'm here to learn.

*brayhaven,*

I did rinse it before drying, but the guy in the vid said he doesn't.  He just squeegees it off with his hand.  I was afraid of it being too sweet, so I rinsed this time.


SuperDave said:


> I think a lot of the notion of smoked salmon really lies in whether one is truly trying to smoke salmon that will last for days as a preserved piece of meat or smoke/cook that produced an outstanding tasting piece of fish but doesn't have the lasting power for preservation.  When I smoke salmon, it doesn't last more than a couple of days so the technical aspects are near as critical.  Everything I know about true smoking of fish is that the fillet is supposed to be exposed to moving air until the pellicle forms before smoking.  It is part of the process.
> 
> If one sees the proteins rising to the surface during cooking, it is a sign that the meat is cooking and further cooking will just dry out the fish.


*SuperDave, *I'm not entirely understanding your post.  Smoking at these temps will produce salmon to last several days when 40-45* cool.

If your talking about backpacking/camping or something, that you want to it last a long time, then you would want it a lot more salty to preserve it at ambient temps for a few days.  Same for jerky.  Saltier/drier will last much longer then.

As for air drying with moving air.  I believe I mentioned I would put it under a fan if needed.  And it was.  3 hours worth.

I like quick smoked salmon, but I consider it dinner, rather than a snack to pull out when you feel like.

________________________________________

*Now about those other questions?*

1.  That guys claim to leave it in dry mix bring from 8 hours to 3-5 days, if something prevents you from smoking?

2.  Using wet brine ONLY on fresh, non-frozen fish?

3.  And how the heck do keep from getting such a hard pellicle? 

I've done it low to med high temps, like yesterday, and I've done it at higher temps all the way though.  I've used water pans and no water pans.  I still get a very hard pellicle.  What's the secret?

I'm beginning to think that it is just such a large chamber that turns the pellicle too hard for me.  May have to move to a smaller smoker for my fish.  Bear in mind that I'm using an offset smoker.

Any help is appreciated.


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## fpmich

*I'll post how I did my smoke today.*   It may give you some info on what I may have done wrong or right.

Dry brined 4 to 1 sugar to salt for 8 1/2 hours.

Rinsed, patted dry, placed on racks in fridge for another 8 1/2 hrs.

Air dried with fan on high for 3 hrs.

Placed in cold smoker @ 72* with AMNPS for 15 minutes while I lit 5 good sized lump charcoal and added them after 15 minutes.

Temp rose to 90*

1/2 hr later added another 5 lit coal lumps.  Temp rose to 100*

1/2 hrs later added 4 lit coals and a 2x3x3 piece of pre-burned cherry wood.  Removed AMNPS.

1/2 hr later temp @ 160*  probed for for IT.  IT was at 91*  Added small chunk of pre-burned apple wood.

1/2 hr temp was @ 165*  IT @ 108*

1/2 hr @ 160*  IT @ 112*   Added 1/2 chimney of lit lump coal

15 min @ 190*  IT @ 115*  Added 1/4 cimney of lit coals.

1/2 hr @ 216*  IT @ 142*  Pulled fish.

No breaks in pellicle, and no white ooze on top of any of them.  Even though I had not removed pin bones this time.

______________

Hope this helps you figure out how to help me with pellicle.  Tried a smaller piece and flesh was moist and tender.  Pellicle hard.


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## wade

fpmich said:


> 1ST QUESTION IS:  Would I be better off using a dry brine for previously frozen fish?
> 
> 2ND QUESTION IS:  How would I infuse flavors other than salt and sugar into fish?  Would dried herbs/spices/garlic added to mix, still be absorbed?  I've never dry brained before.
> 
> 3RD QUESTION IS:  Is he correct in 8 hours, to 3-4 days, in dry brine, not matter for flavor or saltiness.
> 
> 4TH QUESTION IS:  Am I better off starting at low 100* and gradually raise it to 200*, or just smoke at 150*-175*, or something like that, to oneness I like.
> 
> Keep in mind like I a semi-soft pellicle on top.  Not super hard like last year.   Will higher temp keep top pellicle skin softer, or rather a lower temp for longer time.
> 
> PLEASE... ALL DRY BRAINING PURIST CHECK IN with recipes and knowledge.
> 
> Keep in mind I am smoking on a cheap offset smoker  with lots of air flow.  (which I believe contributed to my tougher pellicle finish) Not one of those electrics, or pellet, or sealed up expensive smokers.
> 
> Chimney vet wide open, and regulate heat from the fire box damper.


I smoke a lot of salmon and whether it is fresh or frozen I prefer to use a dry cure. I find that the results is a lot less salty. The brining process I use also does not take as long as shown the video - I leave it for 2-3 hours and the fish firms up nicely without becoming too firm.

Dill, fennel, tarragon and fennel seeds (preferably fresh) all work well and impart a nice subtle flavour. I usually finely chop it and mix it in with the cure before adding the fish. The longer you leave the fish in the cure the more flavour it will absorb - however it will also become increasingly more salty (up to a point). Depending on the thickness of the fillet I find that 2-3 hours in the dry brine a cool place is about right.

In my opinion even 8 hours in the brine is way too long. I don't think I would be able to eat it if it was left in for 3-4 days!

Rather than hot smoking immediately you could cold smoke straight after curing. I smoke mine cold over hickory for about 8 hours (overnight) and then cook them at for about 12 minutes at 350 F just before serving. This gives you a salmon fillet with a good strength of smoke flavour that isn't salty. It is firm in texture, similar to Tuna steak, and does not go hard. I regularly supply a couple of local chefs with this salmon.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/140785/smoked-fish-fillets-salmon-cod-and-haddock-q-view

After curing and smoking they will last a couple of weeks in the fridge or many months if vac packed and frozen

I hope this helps


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## cmayna

Frank,

I went back through my records and note that for filet's, I brine 6.5 - 7 hours.  Not the 8 hours I mentioned earlier.   I question if you need to dry in the fridge for 8 hours then under a fan for another 3 hours.  I room dry filets for just 3 hours and it creates a fine pellicle. 

Craig


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## Bearcarver

Hi Frank!!

You may have seen my "Smoked Salmon" Step by Step, but it took 8 full smokers worth of experiments & a lot of note taking to come up with my "Final" method.

I freeze all my Salmon to below Zero for 30 days to eliminate parasites, because I don't plan on cooking it to 160*.

I do a wet brine, and the length of time depends on the thickness of the pieces----Thinner than 1/2"---4 hours-----Thicker than 1/2" ---6 hours.

My Smoked Salmon is not for Dinner either---It is for holding in your hand & snacking.

Mine doesn't get a hard shell ion it, which I believe would be caused by opening the door too often, or like you said could be from to big a chamber which would also give too much air flow.

Here is my Step by Step:

*Smoked Salmon*      

Bear


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## brayhaven

Bear I tried that brine 4 hrs and it came out too salty. Rinsed but didn't soak after brining. Had to throw the batch out. Will try the dry method in the video. 
Greg


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## Bearcarver

brayhaven said:


> Bear I tried that brine 4 hrs and it came out too salty. Rinsed but didn't soak after brining. Had to throw the batch out. Will try the dry method in the video.
> Greg


Hmmmm, That's odd. I never soaked any & I didn't tell anyone to soak it, and you can see by all the comments from guys who followed it, theirs wasn't too salty.

Sorry to hear you had to throw some out !!!!

Bear


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## superdave

I've had bad experience with table salt as listed in Bear's ingredients and only use kosher or sea salt now.


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## wade

When dry brining the type of salt makes a big difference to the cure. The size of the salt crystal makes a difference to the speed of the cure and also the absorbtion of salt by the fish. I find that course sea salt works best for me. I cannot say whether this is the same is true for wet brining - probably not.

You should try to use additive free salt whenever possible however I am not sure how pure you can really call sea salt - as it has a lot of interesting things in it and is not just sodium chloride. These are not really "additives" but are anti caking agents any better or worse ? I really don't know.


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## cmayna

Non iodized salt is normally used, maybe for the reasons Wade is talking about.


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## cmayna

brayhaven said:


> Bear I tried that brine 4 hrs and it came out too salty. Rinsed but didn't soak after brining. Had to throw the batch out. Will try the dry method in the video.
> Greg


brayhaven,

I really do not recommend the method used in the video.   For dry brining, way too long.  He doesn't bother to rinse before drying.


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## wade

cmayna said:


> brayhaven,
> 
> I really do not recommend the method used in the video.   For dry brining, way too long.  He doesn't bother to rinse before drying.


I must admit that I too winced as I watched it - however I have not tried his method and so cannot really say what it must have been like. I can imagine though.


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## brayhaven

No I tried the wet brine in Bear's recipe. That was way too salty.  Maybe soaking a few hours would help. But it seems like digging a hole just to fill it back up :).  I think the salt sugar ratio had something to do with it.  I'm trying the dry 4:1 dry now for less time. 4 hrs. Will let u know how it works. Several people say the dry works great for them and consistently. I used to smoke a lot of fish but many years ago. Only recall it was a wet brine. 
Stay tuned.  
Greg


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## brayhaven

No problem bear. I may have done something wrong. Anyway it was pink salmon @5 bucks a pound at Walmart.  I'd be upset if it was sockeye :). 
My old recipe I think was a cup of sugar and half a cup of salt in a quart of water iirc. And it always worked great. But always used fresh salmon. 
Greg


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## fpmich

*WOW!  A LOT of replies now!*   I like that!

However I usually  try to *bold type a name* for each comment,  I won't do that this time to save time.  Just up to you to decide who I am replying too.  LOL

No need to dry in fridge other than I wasn't going to be smoking it for a few hours, and this give me a slight head start on pellicle forming, plus it also gives more time to equalize the cure in fish.  I did air dry them 3 hours with fan before starting in smoker.

8 & 1/2 hours in dry cure WAS Just a tad salty, but not overly so.  However I DID rinse it.  I just couldn't just squeegee it by hand.  It might work, but I didn't trust that part this time.  I may have used not enough sugar too.  I also just rounded cupped like the guy in the video.

Flavor is good except I used too little of flavorings, because of being new to dry cure mix,  I'm more comfortable with a wet cure.  Then I know all my desired flavors are being absorbed.  I think maybe you need more spice flavor stuff in dry brine than you do wet cure.

Only open lid once to insert IT probe in, around the 2 hour mark, or so.  Did it, and shut it quick!

I used Kosher Salt with dark brown sugar in brine.  I think I like light brown sugar better though.  Still undecided on that.

However this fish came out pretty darnned good, other than I didn't put enough other flavors in mix,  It will not be tossed out, I can tell you that!   LOL

*Now... no one has comment on fresh vs frozen for wet or dry brine use.   *Any reason to use one over the other?

All I know is that my fresh caught, unfrozen fish, brined and smoked in a kettle type smoker came out great.  Thin pellicle too.  But still held a couple of weeks in fridge.

*I still think my tough pellicle problem after smoking, is due to the large chamber, and air flow.*

I may go back to kettle and try some, or build a box to cover fish inside my CG with a vent.  That would still allow smoke to flow, but cut down on excessive air flow, as most of it would be going around the box.  *What do you think?*

If I've missed a comment, or tip, please remind me of it.


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## cmayna

Tomorrow is my last day to go Salmon fishing for the season.  I'll try to remember to bring home some extra for you to practice with.......but don't hold your breath 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






.

Like others, I freeze all my fish which will be smoked later just to make sure all the little buggy critters (parasites) of the ocean are dead.  I don't put too many spices in my dry mix just so that I don't mask the excellent flavor of the fish itself.  I've tasted way too much smoked salmon from others which has been overspiced to the point that I can't even tell what I'm eating.  So be careful.


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## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> *Now... no one has comment on fresh vs frozen for wet or dry brine use.   *Any reason to use one over the other?
> 
> All I know is that my fresh caught, unfrozen fish, brined and smoked in a kettle type smoker came out great.  Thin pellicle too.  But still held a couple of weeks in fridge.
> 
> If I've missed a comment, or tip, please remind me of it.


Actually I did comment on that, but I'll repeat:

I did a lot of research when I worked on my method of Brining & Smoking Fish.

According to my research there are 2 ways to get rid of parasites in fish. One way is to cook the fish to 160* IT. The other way is to freeze the fish to various temps for various times. Since I don't choose to Smoke my fish all the way to 160*, I freeze mine to below Zero for at least 30 days.

Bear


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## mr t 59874

fpmich,

Like so many things there probably is no right or wrong way to get a job done as long it is done to your liking.  Trial and error will accomplish this.

The following is how I personally do mine along with many of my friends salmon with excellent results.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/122931/mr-ts-smoked-salmon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view

Keep in mind a couple things when curing a product.

1.  Contrary to popular belief, if your product is to salty, it may be that it was not brined long enough to equalize.  Meaning the salt and moisture in the product did not have enough time to combine.  It is my opinion that frozen fish will absorb the brine much better as the ice crystals formed during freezing allows for better equalization.

2.  Freezing will help kill parasites, but bringing your product to a proper temperature for a proper length of time will kill them also.  Example, you can bring your salmon to a temperature of 160° for a few seconds or it can be brought to a temperature of 145° for 30 minutes with the same results. The later will produce a more moist product.

Hope this helps.  Again by experimenting you will find what works best for you, like the others above have done for themselves.

Have fun and enjoy.

Tom


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## brayhaven

Mr T 59874 said:


> fpmich,
> 
> Like so many things there probably is no right or wrong way to get a job done as long it is done to your liking.  Trial and error will accomplish this.
> 
> The following is how I personally do mine along with many of my friends salmon with excellent results.
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/122931/mr-ts-smoked-salmon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view
> 
> Keep in mind a couple things when curing a product.
> 
> 1.  Contrary to popular belief, if your product is to salty, it may be that it was not brined long enough to equalize.  Meaning the salt and moisture in the product did not have enough time to combine.  It is my opinion that frozen fish will absorb the brine much better as the ice crystals formed during freezing allows for better equalization.
> 
> 2.  Freezing will help kill parasites, but bringing your product to a proper temperature for a proper length of time will kill them also.  Example, you can bring your salmon to a temperature of 160° for a few seconds or it can be brought to a temperature of 145° for 30 minutes with the same results. The later will produce a more moist product.
> 
> Hope this helps.  Again by experimenting you will find what works best for you, like the others above have done for themselves.
> 
> Have fun and enjoy.
> 
> Tom


 OK Tom, so you think these salty smoked salmon I'm getting is because I brine too little? (4 hrs) I tried again today with dry brine from the video and still too salty but not as bad as the wet brine.  Tried skin on & off.  the skin on wasnt as salty.  Also tried some cod which was also too salty.  Was thinking of trying a very thin coating, but I'd like a consistent method. The salmon I'm getting is pretty thin @ 1/4" or less filets.    

I'm about to give up, but I'll try your recipe and see if that may be the problem.  Some brine recipes call for 1:1 sugar to salt ratio.  That must take a lot of beer to keep down :o).

Any advice appreciated ...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Greg

Wont throw these out.  The cat might eat em... :)


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## mr t 59874

Wow, those are awfully thin fillets.  Seems more like used to make salmon jerky.  I can see how the brining time could be cut down.  Try a thicker fillet with the skin on 1" - 2".  I'm sure you will soon see the difference.

Tom


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## brayhaven

Tom. I've been fishing for Salmon for years but haven't caught a one here in N Florida. Gotta take what I can buy. I catch plenty of fish. But like smoked salmon. 
Greg


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## cmayna

Mr T 59874 said:


> Wow, those are awfully thin fillets.  Seems more like used to make salmon jerky.  I can see how the brining time could be cut down.  Try a thicker fillet with the skin on 1" - 2".  I'm sure you will soon see the difference.
> 
> Tom


Tom,

What pics are you looking at?


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## mr t 59874

brayhaven,

I wonder how one of your red's would smoke up?

Tom


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## mr t 59874

cmayna,

I was responding to brayhavens post #25  1/4 " fillets.

Tom


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## cmayna

Hmmmmm,

Don't see a link in #25 to a pic to what you are talking about.


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## mr t 59874

cmayna,

Was not looking at pics.  Just commented on his post.

Tom


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## brayhaven

That's one of our main target fish. They're so good broiled I haven't tried smoking one yet. Want to get my technique down so I don't waste one. We only get to keep 2 per day in a narrow slot limit. Also want to try spotted sea trout.  I'm thinking of using your brine and soaking then test for salt with a bite cooked in the microwave. What do u think?
Greg


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## fpmich

Thanks *cmayna *and *bear*.

I understood that freezing fish or 3 - 4 weeks would kill any parasites.  But Bear just made the penny drop for me.  If fresh fish, always go to 160*.

As far as wet brine vs. dry brine, I can't see much difference in texture.  So I'll probably go back to wet brining.  It took as much time to form pellicle using dry brine as it did wet brined.  And dry brining seems to be wet brining, after a few minutes anyway, plus it was messier when flipping pieces around.  LOL

*MrT*.

If I use a wet brine should I use the same 4 to 1 ratio, using all TQ?  Or should I use a certain amount of TQ plus some salt mixed to achieve the 1 ratio?


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## wade

Bearcarver said:


> According to my research there are 2 ways to get rid of parasites in fish. One way is to cook the fish to 160* IT. The other way is to freeze the fish to various temps for various times. Since I don't choose to Smoke my fish all the way to 160*, I freeze mine to below Zero for at least 30 days.


If you are not going to take the fish above 140 F (60 C) for at least 1 minute then freezing will certainly do the trick however depending on your freezer it should not take as long as 30 days.

In the USA the Fish and Fishery Products Hazards and Controls Guide recommends a temperature below -4 F (-20 C) for 7 days or -31 F (-35 C) (internal) for 15 hours to kill the parasites of concern (FDA 1998). 

E.U. regulations require freezing at a temperature of no more than -4 F (-20 C) in all parts of the product for not less than 24 hours.


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## cmayna

I'm currently eating smoked Salmon that is dated mid August which has been frozen since that date.  Next week I might dip into latter August inventory.  Guess I shouldn't encounter any of those little parasite critters.


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## Bearcarver

Wade said:


> If you are not going to take the fish above 140 F (60 C) for at least 1 minute then freezing will certainly do the trick however depending on your freezer it should not take as long as 30 days.
> 
> In the USA the Fish and Fishery Products Hazards and Controls Guide recommends a temperature below -4 F (-20 C) for 7 days or -31 F (-35 C) (internal) for 15 hours to kill the parasites of concern (FDA 1998).
> 
> E.U. regulations require freezing at a temperature of no more than -4 F (-20 C) in all parts of the product for not less than 24 hours.


It's been over 4 years since I researched it, but there were all kinds of temps & times on various websites, and most of them were shorter times, but lower temps. I picked the "Below Zero for 30 days or more", because I normally keep my meat freezer at minus 2*, and I had 19 whole fillets, so I knew 30 days wasn't going to be a problem. Also I doubt if I could get -31 F with my little chest Meat Freezer.

Bear


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## Bearcarver

brayhaven said:


> OK Tom, so you think these salty smoked salmon I'm getting is because I brine too little? (4 hrs) I tried again today with dry brine from the video and still too salty but not as bad as the wet brine.  Tried skin on & off.  the skin on wasnt as salty.  Also tried some cod which was also too salty.  Was thinking of trying a very thin coating, but I'd like a consistent method. The salmon I'm getting is pretty thin @ 1/4" or less filets.
> 
> I'm about to give up, but I'll try your recipe and see if that may be the problem.  Some brine recipes call for 1:1 sugar to salt ratio.  That must take a lot of beer to keep down :o).
> 
> Any advice appreciated ...
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Greg
> 
> Wont throw these out.  The cat might eat em... :)


I didn't know your fillets were only 1/4" thick:

I originally found my brine to be best with brining for 6 hours.

Then I did some that were less than 1/2" thick that were a bit salty, so I made a note to brine over 1/2" for 6 hours, and under 1/2" for 4 hours.

Using my Brine, I would probably brine pieces 1/4" or less for only 1 or 2 hours.

With my brine, Thickness definitely makes a big difference.

Bear


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## mr t 59874

fpmich said:


> Thanks *cmayna *and *bear*.
> 
> I understood that freezing fish or 3 - 4 weeks would kill any parasites.  But Bear just made the penny drop for me.  If fresh fish, always go to 160*.
> 
> As far as wet brine vs. dry brine, I can't see much difference in texture.  So I'll probably go back to wet brining.  It took as much time to form pellicle using dry brine as it did wet brined.  And dry brining seems to be wet brining, after a few minutes anyway, plus it was messier when flipping pieces around.  LOL
> 
> *MrT*.
> 
> If I use a wet brine should I use the same 4 to 1 ratio, using all TQ?  Or should I use a certain amount of TQ plus some salt mixed to achieve the 1 ratio?


When using TQ, I use the same amount as TQ is a more pure salt and the results are supreme.

Tom


brayhaven said:


> That's one of our main target fish. They're so good broiled I haven't tried smoking one yet. Want to get my technique down so I don't waste one. We only get to keep 2 per day in a narrow slot limit. Also want to try spotted sea trout. I'm thinking of using your brine and soaking then test for salt with a bite cooked in the microwave. What do u think?
> Greg


Not being a big microwave fan other than heating water, I would suggest you fix the sample as you would the other.  You would then eliminate any guess work. 

Being one who believes when wet brining,  once a product has reached 100% saturation it can't take on any more salt regardless the time in the brine as the brine salinity does not increase in time unless it is allowed to evaporate.  There are those who will disagree, but I have noticed that they are most likely not allowing 100% equalization to begin with and would most likely benefit buy cutting back on the salt to a more desirable salinity level.  Of course the thinner the product the less time it will take to reach 100% saturation / equalization.

When smoking keep in mind that the more moisture that is removed from any brined or cured product will have more of a salty taste as although the moisture escapes during cooking, the salt minerals stay in the product meaning a dry product will have a much more salty taste than a moist product using the same brine recipe.  Again your taste preference will be determined by experience.

 Keep good notes on the strength of your brine by using a salameter (under $15), the thickness of your product, length of time in the brine and the temperature and time that it is cooked.  You will then soon find that all the guess work is eliminated and you will end up with a most desirable finished product that can be duplicated at any time.

Tom

Tom


----------



## brayhaven

Thanks Tom. I'll try a weaker brine for a short time. As for the micro salt check. Not trying to get flavor. Just a quick salt test. A piece the size of a penny between paper towels cooks dries in @ 30 seconds. Hate to have to smoke that little piece for 6 hours to see if it's too salty. :) I see a lot of folks on here soak and even change the water to get the salt down. (After brining)
Wife and I are not fond of heavy salt. My doc also told me to cut back. Marginal kidney function. Too much salt is never good for us older folks :)
Thanks again for your help. 
Greg


----------



## mr t 59874

brayhaven

As I stated above, each has his own technique.  Six hours is a mighty long time in the smoker.  Are you making jerky?  As for desalinating, unless you are curing the fish for extended storing, why brine it then immediately remove the salt?  Don't know how one would control the salt content accurately.  If you intend to keep your fish for a extended amount of time, I would suggest canning it.  That is a whole new game though as different techniques are used when canning fish.

Again, I can't over state the importance of a salameter, they are an inexpensive and valuable tool when brining.  Fish salinity should be in the neighborhood of 70% - 80%  strength @60°.  At this strength both you and your doctor should be delighted.

Tom


----------



## fpmich

Thanks *cmayna *and *bear*.

I understood that freezing fish or 3 - 4 weeks would kill any parisites.  But Bear just made the penny drop for me.  If fresh fish, always go to 160*.

As far as wet brine vs. dry brine, I can't see much difference in texture.  So I'll probably go back to wet brining.  It took as much time to form pellicle using dry brine as it did wet brined.  And dry brining seems to be wet brining, after a few minutes anyway.  LOL

------------------

Huh.  I seem to not have posted this when I thought I did.  Not my first time.  I'm not used a saved draft thing.  It cool though.


----------



## fpmich

*Success at last!*

*I think my problems with pellicle was too high of temps too quick, while smoking last year.*

I started this batch at 72* Ambient temp inside smoker,  with only smoke generator going, and then gradually adding heat over time.

I only reached 200* area the last 20 or 30 minutes, and would have preferred it to only reach 180*.  I pulled fish out at 142* IT.

Right off the smoker it was good, but pellicle seemed hard and tough as ever, and skin still wouldn't peel off without taking meat with it.

Cooled a couple of hours on racks at room temp and placed into zip bag.  Left zip bag open, in fridge.  A little condensation had formed.

Day 2. Same results as to pellicle, and skin.  Sealed zip bag up.

*Day 3.  Wonderful!  Pellicle broke very easily * (It looks in photo, thicker than it actually was for some reason.) *   It was very thin.*













Thin Pellicle.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Oct 31, 2014






*After looking this photo, I had to check my thumbnail.*   Nope.  No yellow!  LOL 

I guess the camera picked the fish color underneath.

*and the skin came off completely meat free!*













Skin Clean-1.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Oct 31, 2014






*PS:  Don't be too quick to toss the skin in the trash.*

Just fry it on medium heat, pressing with a fork.  Flip it over when it releases from pan, and press with fork or spatula again.  And guess what?

You have salmon skin chips 1000 times better than potato chips.  LOL

*Now mind you, this is my first success with the pellicle thing,* but I hope to duplicate again very soon.

*I'm so happy with this batch now, that my family will suffer.*  

I promised them some smoked salmon at our family Thanksgiving dinner this Saturday.  I've already ate about half of it!  LOL

*I would like the inside flesh a "little drier", but still without a tough pellicle.*  

Should I leave it the medium low temps longer for that? Maybe 125* to 140* for an hour or more. before boosting temps to achieve more drying without the tough pellicle?

Or would leaving longer starting at very low temp, and maybe taking 5 or 6 hours to reach IT of 140*-145*  produce a drier flesh, but still thin pellicle?

*Thanks to you all, I'm getting there!*

You've no idea how much I appreciate your input over the last year.  You people, and this forum, is a God Send to us newbies!

I've smoked ribs, roast, bacon, ham, hocks, & brisket.   But my greatest challenge has been those stupid salmon.

I really appreciate your help and bearing with me and my goofy, to you, questions.


----------



## cmayna

Congrats.  It looks fantastic.  Like anything else it take time plus trial and error.

To answer your last questions, what species Salmon are you working with? That might be the reason why the meat is so wet inside.  For King or Silver,   I typically start out at 125 for and hour, bump to 135 for another hour,  bump to 150+ for another hour.  Then I start checking the IT.


----------



## Bearcarver

Frank,

I don't know if this will help you, but below is the smoking temp schedule I used on a batch of Tilapia & small Brook Trout.

I had left the skin on the Trout, but not the Tilapia, and the outside surfaces didn't get too terribly hard.

However----My MES doesn't allow as much air flow as your smoker might allow.

*8:00--------Pre-Heat Smoker to 120˚.*

*8:15--------Put in MES 40, with bigger pieces on #2 shelf, and smaller ones on top shelf.*

*8:30--------I filled my old prototype AMNS with Hickory & lit both ends (I want these good & smoky).*

*8:45--------After a nice pellicle is formed I put my AMNS on the bars of my MES 40.*

*10:30------Smoke was a bit too heavy, even for my taste, so I put the one end out.*

*11:00------Bump heat up to 140˚.*

*1:00--------Bump heat up to 160˚.*

*2:00--------Bump heat up to 180˚.*

*3:00--------Bump heat up to 190˚.*

*4:00--------Removed smoked fish when all pieces were over 140˚ internal. Some were up to 158˚.*

*Allow to cool awhile, and put in fridge until next day for eating & wrapping.*

Bear


----------



## brayhaven

Mr T 59874 said:


> brayhaven
> 
> As I stated above, each has his own technique.  Six hours is a mighty long time in the smoker.  Are you making jerky?  As for desalinating, unless you are curing the fish for extended storing, why brine it then immediately remove the salt?  Don't know how one would control the salt content accurately.  If you intend to keep your fish for a extended amount of time, I would suggest canning it.  That is a whole new game though as different techniques are used when canning fish.
> 
> Again, I can't over state the importance of a salameter, they are an inexpensive and valuable tool when brining.  Fish salinity should be in the neighborhood of 70% - 80%  strength @60°.  At this strength both you and your doctor should be delighted.
> 
> Tom


Thanks Mr. T,  Not making jerky, but the thin part of the filets do get pretty dry. :o)   How long do the others on here smoke their fish??  I think the only way to really check the salt content of the fish, as far as how it will taste... is to taste it :o).  I'm an old water treatment chemist and can test the brine for chlorides down to parts per million, if I thought that would be the answer, but the only thing that counts is how it tastes.  (IOW, "the proof is in the pudding")  The first batch I threw away, the second, was too salty, but edible (with plenty of beer ;).  I'll just brine it and adjust the taste with soaking as some seem to do on this forum.  I'm not quite ready to  give up yet.  I think with those thin filets, that have been frozen and soak up water like a sponge, I might be able to use a more dilute brine and shorter brining time,to get the less salty flavor I want without having to soak it.  Some here apparently always soak and change the water in the soak a time or two. I appreciate your input.. and othehrs who have had the same problems. This is the only thing I've had trouble smoking...


----------



## brayhaven

Bearcarver said:


> Frank,
> 
> I don't know if this will help you, but below is the smoking temp schedule I used on a batch of Tilapia & small Brook Trout.
> 
> I had left the skin on the Trout, but not the Tilapia, and the outside surfaces didn't get too terribly hard.
> 
> However----My MES doesn't allow as much air flow as your smoker might allow.
> 
> *8:00--------Pre-Heat Smoker to 120˚.*
> 
> *8:15--------Put in MES 40, with bigger pieces on #2 shelf, and smaller ones on top shelf.*
> 
> *8:30--------I filled my old prototype AMNS with Hickory & lit both ends (I want these good & smoky).*
> 
> *8:45--------After a nice pellicle is formed I put my AMNS on the bars of my MES 40.*
> 
> *10:30------Smoke was a bit too heavy, even for my taste, so I put the one end out.*
> 
> *11:00------Bump heat up to 140˚.*
> 
> *1:00--------Bump heat up to 160˚.*
> 
> *2:00--------Bump heat up to 180˚.*
> 
> *3:00--------Bump heat up to 190˚.*
> 
> *4:00--------Removed smoked fish when all pieces were over 140˚ internal. Some were up to 158˚.*
> 
> *Allow to cool awhile, and put in fridge until next day for eating & wrapping.*
> 
> Bear


How is that Tilapia, Bear?  The varmits are all over here in FL,  We broiled one once but didn't care for it.  But a lot of fish are good smoked that I don't much like broiled.  I see they serve it at Red Lobster.  Used to get it from the cast netters here for a quarter a pound.  

Greg


----------



## Bearcarver

brayhaven said:


> How is that Tilapia, Bear?  The varmits are all over here in FL,  We broiled one once but didn't care for it.  But a lot of fish are good smoked that I don't much like broiled.  I see they serve it at Red Lobster.  Used to get it from the cast netters here for a quarter a pound.
> 
> Greg


I only had a few small Brookies, so I threw some Tilapia Fillets in with them just as an experiment.

I was very surprised---They were very good----Not much different than Salmon, and a whole lot cheaper if you have to buy the Salmon.

IMO Salmon & Trout bigger than 18" are ONLY good smoked. Small Trout (under 18") are good, made just about any way.

Here's that Step by Step with the Little Brookies & Tilapia:

*Smoked Brook Trout & Tilapia*

Bear


----------



## mr t 59874

brayhaven said:


> Thanks Mr. T,  Not making jerky, but the thin part of the filets do get pretty dry. :o)   How long do the others on here smoke their fish??  I think the only way to really check the salt content of the fish, as far as how it will taste... is to taste it :o).  I'm an old water treatment chemist and can test the brine for chlorides down to parts per million, if I thought that would be the answer, but the only thing that counts is how it tastes.  (IOW, "the proof is in the pudding")  The first batch I threw away, the second, was too salty, but edible (with plenty of beer ;).  I'll just brine it and adjust the taste with soaking as some seem to do on this forum.  I'm not quite ready to  give up yet.  I think with those thin filets, that have been frozen and soak up water like a sponge, I might be able to use a more dilute brine and shorter brining time,to get the less salty flavor I want without having to soak it.  Some here apparently always soak and change the water in the soak a time or two. I appreciate your input.. and othehrs who have had the same problems. This is the only thing I've had trouble smoking...


brayhaven,

The length of time a product is smoked depends on many factors such as the product being smoked, the type and amount of wood, the temperature of the smoker and product along with the color and density of the smoke itself.  A light smoke can be applied for much longer periods than a more dense smoke with the same results.

Being a scientist a can imagine you didn't guess the amount of chlorine you  added to water.  Same would apply here if you want consistency after you find what you like.

I like to make the process as simple as possible, therefore after brining and air drying to create the pellicle with no soaking, the fish is smoke cooked at one temperature, 200° using a moderately dense smoke.   Once the internal temp of the thickest cut reaches 140° the smoker temp is lowered to 140°.  Because my smokers are well insulated, carryover will take the fish IT to 145° or just above.  By the time the IT of the fish starts to lower the desired holding time of 20 minutes is reached and the fish is done and allowed to cool before packaging and refrigerated or frozen.  This is usually achieved in the 1 to 1 1/2 hour range depending on the thickness of the fillets.  The result is a moist flaky snack food that can be used in many recipes.  This technique easily allows the ability to do several batches in one afternoon.

It will be helpful to try and smoke the fish that is the same thickness as the times will be different.  If you don't already have one, I would suggest getting a Thermopen digital instant read thermometer as you can measure the internal temp of a 1/4 inch fillet with it. A remote thermometer will also keep you from having to open the smoker to take the temp reading.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Good luck,

Tom


----------



## fpmich

cmayna and Bear,

It was a king.

Yes it was very moist.  I doubt the low temp at the beginning hour or so hurt anything.  I was basically cold smoking for an hour or so before raising my temps to 100* and then 140*.  I think the moist flesh was from raising the temps to quickly above 160*, and reached 200*-216* and IT was reached too fast before it had time to dry a little more.  I'd like to keep it under 200* if I can, but that's not always possible with this unit.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> cmayna and Bear,
> 
> It was a king.
> 
> Yes it was very moist.  I doubt the low temp at the beginning hour or so hurt anything.  I was basically cold smoking for an hour or so before raising my temps to 100* and then 140*.  I think the moist flesh was from raising the temps to quickly above 160*, and reached 200*-216* and IT was reached too fast before it had time to dry a little more.  I'd like to keep it under 200* if I can, but that's not always possible with this unit.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I agree-----Low & slow & long is for "hold-in-your-hand" snacking Salmon.

If I was going to smoke Salmon for Dinner, I'd get some smoke on it, and jack the temp up higher & faster to make the flesh moist & flaky for eating with a fork on a Dinner plate with Taters & sides.

Bear


----------



## cmayna

Yes, high temp cooking or smoking will not give enough time to dry out the meat as one sees when eating what we define as typical smoked Salmon.  Instead the meat will be as Bear noted  "moist & flaky for eating with a fork".


----------



## fpmich

*Thanks cmayna & Bear!*

I know you guys use different smokers than I am, but you are still helping zero in on success. 

For that, I thank you!  _<fpmich tips his hat>_

*Bear question,* I _think_ I noticed that you spent _more_ time at lower temps, and more time in smoker over all, with the Brook Trout & Tilapia, than you do with Salmon.  Is that because they were thinner than a salmon piece, or some other reason?  Or just the way it went that day?

*Question #1 - for all to respond to.*

As for tough pellicle (which hopefully I've solved by lower cooking temps)  am I better off splitting the fillets lengthwise, into thinner (belly) and (back) thicker portions?  I know that's _probably _a yes answer, because of thickness difference.  

_*Question #1 A -  *_  BUT... am I better off leaving the separated, but long, lengthwise fillets whole, & cutting into portions after smoking, or cutting into portion size *before brining and smoking.*

*Question #2 - for all to respond to.*

If you cut thin (belly) parts off to smoke separately, but can't get another good smoking day for a week or so, *is it okay to re-freeze.*   Or will that be too much damage to fish?

_________________

*I will be doing another salmon (2  full fillets worth) later today (Sunday) and smoking on Monday.*  

I'm doing a wet brine this time (to compare with my 1st dry brine attempt),   My biggest worry is wind on Monday.  May be above 15-18 mph.  I always add 5 to 8 mph to forecast, because they are no smarter then us. <grin>

Last smoke was a perfect day.  Outside temps in mid 60's to start, & breeze at 3 -5 mph.

I plan on _cold smoking_ longer than just an hour or so, _ maybe 2-3 hours,_ before adding any heat.  What do think Wade?

Hopefully I can get heat up to 120-125* with first try.  Then try to gradually increase it to 165* and leave fish in that temp range longer than I did before.  And then increase temps higher( hopefully under 190*) until I reach 140-145*, and still end up with an acceptable tender pellicle at end.. 

*Wish me luck! *

If this duplicates what I just smoked the other day, but with better texture/dryness _and still a thin pellicle_, I will be a very happy camper!

(Believe you me, this smoke will have many more notes in journal to myself, than usual this time.  LOL)

I will report back in thread with results.

-----------------------------

Just incase anyone thinks my questions and post are not well thought out, this one took me over two hours to type.

It's my thoughts that are not organized.  I'm not a read and type quick guy anymore, it seems.  I type like I cook.   Slow.  HA!

My Mom's half brother told my youngest brother, when he visited him in hospital shortly before he died.   Uncle Cecil said: "Oh, your Mom is a wonderful cook!  But LORD, is that woman slow!"  See?  It runs in the family.


----------



## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> *Thanks cmayna & Bear!*
> 
> I know you guys use different smokers than I am, but you are still helping zero in on success.
> 
> For that, I thank you!  _<fpmich tips his hat>_
> 
> *Bear question,* I _think_ I noticed that you spent _more_ time at lower temps, and more time in smoker over all, with the Brook Trout & Tilapia, than you do with Salmon.  Is that because they were thinner than a salmon piece, or some other reason?  Or just the way it went that day?
> 
> *Wish me luck!*


When I did that "Smoked Salmon" Step by Step, I was using my MES 30, and it was before the invention of the AMNS.

In order to get the thing to smoke I used to bump the temp up often, and open the door to drop the temp, so I could make the heating element come on long enough to make the wood chips smoke.

When I did the "Tilapia & Brookies" Step by Step, I had the AMNS, so I could just set my heat when & where I wanted it, because the smoke was taken care of perfectly by the AMNS.

I like to cut my fillets into portion size pieces before brining & smoking, and I brine the thinner ones for shorter times. I also put the thinner ones on the top smoker position, because that rack doesn't get as hot as the others.

Good Luck, Frank!!

Bear


----------



## cmayna

Frank,

As Bear does, I always cut the Salmon filets to serving size before brining.  Meaning the average filet is about 2.5" - 4" wide.   And yes depending on how thick it is will dictate how long to smoke.  Thinner pieces on top rack with monsters at the bottom. 

Let's see some pics.


----------



## fpmich

*Life interferes sometimes. * This in one of those times.   *So today I am going to smoke cheese instead of fish.*

I wasn't able to get my fish brined last night,

so will have to wait until either Wed, or Maybe Fri or Sat to smoke.  Bummer. 

Placed thawed fillet (whole) in bottom crisper of fridge at 33*-34* to hold.  Will cut and add to brine tomorrow, in case Wed is a good day.

If Wed is not, then I will wrap them and leave, already brined, until weekend.  If weather is not good then, I guess I will have to have baked salmon to eat immediately.

*Bear, I noticed that you use a 1 to 1 ratio salt to sugar plus some soy. * Not being sure of how much salt is in soy, I can't really know your ratio.

But I'm sure it brings it to more than 1 sugar to 1+ salt.  Isn't it salty?  Most brines I've found for dry brines is 4 to 1 sugar to salt, and a lot of wet brines are from 4 to 1, down to 1 to 1, sugar to salt.

Does using more sugar retain so much moisture that it gives you a too moist smoked fish, rather than drier, but still moist fish?  And maybe longer shelf life?

  And could using 4 to 1 sugar to salt, be adding to my pellicle problem I've been fighting.?


----------



## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> *Bear, I noticed that you use a 1 to 1 ratio salt to sugar plus some soy. * Not being sure of how much salt is in soy, I can't really know your ratio.
> 
> But I'm sure it brings it to more than 1 sugar to 1+ salt.  Isn't it salty?  Most brines I've found for dry brines is 4 to 1 sugar to salt, and a lot of wet brines are from 4 to 1, down to 1 to 1, sugar to salt.
> 
> Does using more sugar retain so much moisture that it gives you a too moist smoked fish, rather than drier, but still moist fish?  And maybe longer shelf life?
> 
> And could using 4 to 1 sugar to salt, be adding to my pellicle problem I've been fighting.?


Good question----I did 8 full MES 30s in those original experiments, but before them I experimented with salt. The first time I used the instructions of floating an egg to get the salt right, and that was way too salty. Then I went to 1/2 cup Salt, 1/2 cup Sugar, and 10 ounces of Soy. Still too salty. Cut the Soy back to 6 ounces, and it was perfect.

Firmness was just right & so was the moisture.

I can't tell you about shelf life because I never had any in the Fridge longer than one week without eating it all, and I freeze the rest.

And all the stuff with the real long shelf life, that I've ever tasted, was just too salty to consume IMHO.

With all of my experiments, I tried to strike a happy medium, and my #8 batch was just a confirmation of that, because it was an exact duplicate of batch #7.

Also I don't think the amount of sugar has anything to do with how tough the surface is. I think that is more from how long you keep it at mid-temps before raising the temp to finish it, and how much air flow it gets while smoking.

I hope that helps a little.

Bear


----------



## fpmich

Thanks Bear.  I did notice that you explained that you had to keep bumping it to keep smoke going.

As for added amount of soy, after some searching on the web, it seems negligible.  Without the soy, maybe add 1-2 tsp salt to achieve same ratio.  To little to matter.  Just a flavor thing.


> Also I don't think the amount of sugar has anything to do with how tough the surface is. I think that is more from how long you keep it at mid-temps before raising the temp to finish it, and how much air flow it gets while smoking.


So I would be better off cold smoking longer at under 80*-90*  maybe 2 hours, and then take it it to 130*

and then to 150-160-180* or 190* to finish to IT, within just a couple of hours or less, for reduced pellicle toughness?

In other word faster at end then holding at 130*-150 for too much time?

*Am I the "only person" on this forum to experience tough pellicles after smoking fish?*  

No one has replied that has ever experienced the same problem, in any of my fish questions threads. 

Story of my life.  *It must just be me.   LOL*

------------------------------------

Smoked our winter supply of cheese yesterday and the fridge smells _GREAT!!!  _when you open it!  LOL

Tillamook Cheddar, Provolone, Havarti, and American white cheese.


----------



## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> Thanks Bear.  I did notice that you explained that you had to keep bumping it to keep smoke going.
> 
> As for added amount of soy, after some searching on the web, it seems negligible.  Without the soy, maybe add 1-2 tsp salt to achieve same ratio.  To little to matter.  Just a flavor thing.
> 
> So I would be better off cold smoking longer at under 80*-90*  maybe 2 hours, and then take it it to 130*
> 
> and then to 150-160-180* or 190* to finish to IT, within just a couple of hours or less, for reduced pellicle toughness?
> 
> In other word faster at end then holding at 130*-150 for too much time?
> 
> *Am I the "only person" on this forum to experience tough pellicles after smoking fish?*
> 
> No one has replied that has ever experienced the same problem, in any of my fish questions threads.
> 
> Story of my life.  *It must just be me.   LOL*
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Smoked our winter supply of cheese yesterday and the fridge smells _GREAT!!!  _when you open it!  LOL
> 
> Tillamook Cheddar, Provolone, Havarti, and American white cheese.


Since we aren't using cure on these, I would skip the cold smoking, so there aren't too many hours in the danger zone.

If you only got a partial pellicle, I would try:

One hour at 120* without smoke to complete pellicle.

​One hour of 140* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 160* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 180* with smoke.
One hour later, bump to 190 * with smoke until pieces get to 145* IT.

What you are getting on the outside, I wouldn't call pellicle. Pellicle is the dry tacky surface you get by drying the surface, either with air movement or a little heat without smoke.

​The toughness you're getting is just that, a tough leathery surface from heat and a lot of air. Everybody gets some of that, but some get it worse. I believe it to be from too much air flow, like from opening a smoker door too often. I got it one time on boneless skinless chicken breasts. I was having trouble with getting my heat deflector right to balance the heat out in my smoker, so I was constantly opening the door to adjust the plate. The element had to keep on catching up, so the heat was on a lot & the air was flowing every time I opened the door. My Chicken breasts ended up with a bark on them that was like a leathery skin.

Bear


----------



## fpmich

Unable to smoke yesterday.  Fish in brine now, and will form pellicle tomorrow, then refrigerate until Friday, because of rain, and smoke on Friday.

I'm using 1 c TQ to 4 c sugar, in 2 qt liquid.  So a longer time in brine shouldn't hurt.

I'm sorry Bear. 

I forgot to mention that my wet brine is going to be with TQ and a 4 to 1 ratio sugar to salt.  So low temps won't be a problem.

You're right, a_  leathery skin _is a much better way, for me to describe what I am getting.  Just dried out flesh on top. 

I used the term pellicle, because that is where it starts.  I think it comes from too much air flow in chamber with my unit, and too long at higher temps.

I'm considering tenting fish inside the cooking chamber, with a foil cap above, with a smoke vent whole.  Or finding my chimney lid (long misplaced and choking down the output. It may reduce air flow & let the moisture stay inside a little longer before reaching 140*. 

If that don't work, then I will just have to think this unit is not good for smoking fish, and go buy a cheap little vertical smoker.

Or... go back to my redneck setup, with my oval kettle grill.  Don't ask.  LOL 

It involves lots of tinfoil, 2 coffee cans, top and bottom removed, fire pot, and is a pita!  But it did work! 

At the time I didn't I didn't have any therms, but the fish came out great anyway. 

It took at least 6-8 hours back then, and I never even heard of cure#1 or TQ then.  Also a weak brine overnight.  1c salt/1 c sugar per gal of water.  Fan dried 1 hour.

No leathery surface, no too moist flesh, no too dry flesh.  Perfect!

I loved it when I ignorant of safety!   Ignorance is bliss?  LOL

But the main thing I think it was in a smaller cooking chamber, and didn't dry out so much, I believe.


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## fpmich

oops!


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## fpmich

Yesterdays smoked salmon came out purty durned perfect for me, in spite of some setbacks.

Brine:

2 c. Apple Juice

1 & 1/2 qt. water (6 c.)

Heated Apple Juice and simmered with 6 Bay leaves, 2 tsp. pepper corns. 1/2 tsp Cayenne pepper, 1 tsp. Paprika, 1 tsp onion powder.

After mix had cooled down, I added 6 smashed cloves garlic,  1 c. TQ & 4 cups of sugar.  (2.c. Splenda, 1/ 1/2 c. brown sugar, 1/2 c. Maple syrup.  Brine for about 8-10 hours.  Rinsed, patted dry and place fish with fan on for 1 1/2 hours.  Then placed loosely draped with saran, overnight.

11:30 AM placed fish in front of fan for another 1 1/2 hours. 

1:30 PM Started smoker pre-heating, but had to wait for it to cool down some, before adding fish, so fish sat on counter without fan another hour, or so.

*Excellent Pellicle!*













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__ fpmich
__ Nov 8, 2014






*4:PM - Ready to smoke... Almost!*  













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I actually had to remove some larger lumps and open both sfb, as well as chamber lid, to get down to 120*.

Smoked one hour at 100-120* with AMNPS, using Alder and Cherry pellets.

*Fish in smoker flesh side up at 4:00 PM.*   Temp ran from 120* down to 95*  Added some lit coals.

*TBS.  Can't see it?*   Enlarge pic, and notice difference in the grass and leaves to right of smoker.  Slight hazy looking.













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__ Nov 8, 2014






5:00 PM @ 140*

5:45 PM dropped to 122* - added a few lit coals.

Flipped salmon over to skin side up and insert probe.  It was at 90* in thicker portions.

ALSO TENTED fish inside chamber, in hopes of controlling too much air flow.













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__ fpmich
__ Nov 8, 2014






6:30 PM @ 163* and IT at 97*

7:00 PM @ 163* and holding.  100* IT  All is good so far, right?

*NOPE!  Went to dump and the store for 30 minutes*.  _(note to self... Don't Do That!)_   LOL

7:30 PM @ 115*  IT at 100*.   Added some late lit coals  in a hurry.

8:00 PM @155* and IT of 104* reached.

8:30 PM @ 160* &  IT of 111*, so added a few more coals.

9:00 PM @ 178* _ IT of 124*,  Added two small wood chunks of Apple.

10:00 PM At 152  & IT of 135*  Added 1/4 chimney of hot coals.

10:45  @ 210 and IT of 145*.  Pulled from smoker and rested inside.

*As they looked after removing foil tent. * (taken with flash after dark.)













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__ fpmich
__ Nov 8, 2014






No, the BBQ therm is not  touching the IT probe.  Camera angle is all.

*After flipping flesh side up again in house,*













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__ Nov 8, 2014






*Near perfection.*   No super leather skin.  Broke right apart with just a little pressure.  Not too moist, and not too dry.

*Tenting and turning flesh down midway though, seemed to do the trick!*

I ate that one right away, and it was great, except it was missing some flavors that some folks have told me not to use. 

I will add my flavors back to my next batch.  They may have been leathery last year, but they tasted better.

I got 1 more fish, maybe 2, to do yet, if my brother gives his up to science.  LOL

So Bear, and many other folks on the forum who recommend, low to medium high, rather all high temp start to finish.  Hat's off to you for educating me.

*6 hours or so, in smoker was total ti*me.


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## Bearcarver

Nice Job Frank!!---Where there's a will there's a way!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






They actually ended up looking like mine do!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





A little darker & harder on the thin edges, which I always trim off & give the thin edges to my Son----His favorite Fish Jerky!!







for not giving up & staying at it !!

Bear


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## fpmich

Bearcarver said:


> fpmich said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I would be better off cold smoking longer at under 80*-90*  maybe 2 hours, and then take it it to 130*
> 
> and then to 150-160-180* or 190* to finish to IT, within just a couple of hours or less, for reduced pellicle toughness?
> 
> In other word faster at end then holding at 130*-150 for too much time?
> 
> 
> 
> Since we aren't using cure on these, I would skip the cold smoking, so there aren't too many hours in the danger zone.
> 
> Bear
Click to expand...

Why would you, using less a strong brine than I am, ((without cure, (using a stronger salt only brine)) be okay for you to smoke almost 8 hours, and not me, using a stronger brine than you  (without cure)?  You've confused me Bro'.   LOL 

I'm sure I am miss-interpreting what I read, or am even more dense than I think I am.

Doesn't a good salt brine give some leeway from the 40 to 140 in 4 rule?

I like the TQ, or cure#1 flavor sometimes, but also want just the regular basic 4 to 1 sugars to salt brine, with other flavors added, for my fish at other times.  Without any TQ or cure#1 it leaves more of just a salmon taste.

So I don't always want to use a cure in my brine's, wet or dry.

------------------------

*To everyone,*

I can't see much difference between my first batch of dry brined fish  - vs.-  my latest wet brined.  Pretty much the same results to me as to texture of fish.   Actually the dry brined came out more moist than I like, but I think that was my temp control.  Too high too fast.

My tenting to restrict air, and flipping fish over midway, along with lower temps seemed to produce the texture I want, in this particular smoker.  I only got one more fish to try this experiment on to see if I can get same results. 

If so, then I will mark it as a successful idea, born out of frustration.  LOL.

*This forum is so great!*

*PS:  The 210* temp on this last smoke , was only for last 10-15 minutes before I pulled it.  *It wasn't prolonged heat at that temp.

It spiked!


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## fpmich

Bear I just noticed that you don't air dry in front of a fan a couple of hours,
but just leaved racked & uncovered in fridge overnight, and use low temp in smoker to finish forming pellicle.  Could this be what I am missing with you long smoking vs. mine?


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## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> Why would you, using less a strong brine than I am, ((without cure, (using a stronger salt only brine)) be okay for you to smoke almost 8 hours, and not me, using a stronger brine than you  (without cure)?  You've confused me Bro'.   LOL
> 
> I'm sure I am miss-interpreting what I read, or am even more dense than I think I am.
> 
> Doesn't a good salt brine give some leeway from the 40 to 140 in 4 rule?





fpmich said:


> Bear I just noticed that you don't air dry in front of a fan a couple of hours,
> but just leaved racked & uncovered in fridge overnight, and use low temp in smoker to finish forming pellicle. Could this be what I am missing with you long smoking vs. mine?


Great Questions Frank!!

Yes I go longer than 4 hours with my brined fish, because of the salt in the brine.

I just don't do things that aren't in my opinion necessary, without moving toward completion. 

If you look at my Big Smoked Salmon Step by Step, my total time between 40* and 140* is only about 5 hours, but that is because I started my pellicle in the fridge overnight, and finished the pellicle in my smoker in a relatively short time. Then I didn't do any cold smoking, because that just adds a lot of time that doesn't really put much smoke on the fish, and doesn't do anything to move the IT toward completion. However I still kept my smoking temps low enough to get the texture I like to be for snacking instead of a moist & flaky Dinner Fish. 

So since I know the salt in the brine makes the window longer for safe smoking, I'm not afraid to go longer than 4 hours in the Danger zone, but I don't push my luck, by getting my pellicle in 2 hours in front of a fan at room temp, or by cold smoking for 2 hours. That IMO is 4 hours in the Danger Zone that don't do much in the way of moving toward completion. I believe I have gone as long as 8 hours, but all 8 hours were moving toward raising the temp to completion.

These reasons may sound strange to some, but they are my reasons for doing what I do, and it works Great.

Bear


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## fpmich

Thanks Bear.

*Correction to my comment earlier:*

I see now, after re-reading again, that your brine salt ratio is the same as mine. (1 cup per gal of liquid, or 1/2 c per 1/2 gal,) 

Not less strong.  You just used less sugar.  Just write it off to_ an fpmich moment_.  LOL

OK... I'm getting there.

When using cure (nitrite) I don't have too worry too much about time air drying. Which is what I used this time.

But for just salt cured (without nitrite added), I should use fridge and low temp in smoker to start.

I agree.  I get nervous when only using salt brine.

Guess it's time to bring my "Red Green" style of dryer for in fridge drying, again.  A little computer fan.













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__ fpmich
__ Nov 10, 2014






Then start in smoker with just coals, at around 120* for an hour, without any added smoke.

Then add smoke for the rest of the time, gradually bumping temps up to 190* over 5 to 7 hours.

That should be safe for a *salt only *brine, right?


Bearcarver said:


> Bear


I always thought cold smoking let smoke penetrate deeper in to fish or meat.  Am I wrong, or does it just take longer to penetrate, by cold smoking while leaving flesh in raw state.

You are very good at confusing me Bear, _but also very good at explaining your reasons._

So explain away my friend.  As Fraiser Crane says in his program, ... "I'm listening".  LOL


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## Bearcarver

fpmich said:


> Thanks Bear.
> 
> *Correction to my comment earlier:*
> 
> I see now, after re-reading again, that your brine salt ratio is the same as mine. (1 cup per gal of liquid, or 1/2 c per 1/2 gal,)
> 
> Not less strong.  You just used less sugar.  Just write it off to_ an fpmich moment_.  LOL
> 
> I always thought cold smoking let smoke penetrate deeper in to fish or meat.  Am I wrong, or does it just take longer to penetrate, by cold smoking while leaving flesh in raw state.
> 
> You are very good at confusing me Bear, _but also very good at explaining your reasons._
> 
> So explain away my friend.  As Fraiser Crane says in his program, ... "I'm listening".  LOL


This could be a matter of opinion, but IMHO smoke doesn't stick as well to cold clammy meat, whether it be Fish or Bacon. That's why I don't do it any more except with things like cheese.

Cold smoking is fine with Bacon, but it takes at least twice as long to get good color & flavor as it takes with a little heat (100* to 130*). IMO   Why would fish be any different?

I start both of them above 100*.

As for Cure, I haven't used it on fish yet, but I want to try it the next time I have some fish to smoke. It'll be with TQ.

Bear


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## cmayna

I agree with Bear that cold meat temp does not absorb smoke as well as room temp plus.   Thus why I always room temp dry my Salmon during pellicle formation.  Then off to the smoker it goes.  Yesterday when I did my Salmon filets and nuggets, I let the smoker hover around 100+ a little before I added the AMNTS.  Came out as expected......mucho el perfecto.


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## fpmich

Bearcarver said:


> Nice Job Frank!!---Where there's a will there's a way!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They actually ended up looking like mine do!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A little darker & harder on the thin edges, which I always trim off & give the thin edges to my Son----His favorite Fish Jerky!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for not giving up & staying at it !!
> 
> Bear


Bear, no hard edges on this last two batches.  No jerky edge at all!  They turn out perfect!

I think I will portion them a little bigger next time though.













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__ Nov 13, 2014


















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Disaster hit my first batch in freezer due to my stupidity!  

Will start new thread tomorrow with a pic, on how NOT TO...


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## fpmich

*Thanks Cmayna & Bear, & everyone, for helping me to achieve a good fish smoke.*

It also took a little thinking "out of the box" on my part, because we all use different smokers.  But I got there, with your help. Thank you.

*As near as I can tell, there is no difference between wet brined, and dry brine in the final product. *

I guess it just depends on what you are comfortable with using.

I like wet brining better.  I also like it both ways.  With & without nitrite. 

I think I like it a little better without nitrate added.  Or maybe is smaller amounts for just a bit of added flavor.

I will also start another thread requesting info on cold smoking vs. hot smoking fish.  I understand that a True Lox, is only salt cured raw, and Gravlox, or Nova, is salt cured &smoked cold.  Never had either one, but I'm sure I would like it.  But I don't think is it a snacking with cracker fish.

I sure like my Smoked Salmon with crackers, during Rose Bowl and Super Bowl games.  It's a tradition with me.


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