# MES temp issues - First time smoking



## johnmeyer (Nov 20, 2015)

My chicken refused to get hotter than 154 degrees. See my story below.

I have a new MES 30". After initial seasoning, I decided on smoking a whole chicken and also cooking some beans. I used the MES recipe as the starting point for the chicken, and used the time and temperature in Dutch's baked bean recipe for the beans, although I didn't use most of his ingredients because I wanted to fully understand what flavor the smoking was adding to the beans.

I set the MES to 220 degrees, and added chips every 45 minutes, checking to make sure the previous set had turned to ash.

Prior to doing this cooking, but after doing the initial seasoning, I ran the MES for a few hours, without any wood chips, after putting four pyrex cups filled with a little cooking oil into the smoker. I monitored the smoker temp and the oil temp using my Maverick remote thermometer. According to my Maverick probes, the smoker was running around 235, instead of 220, and even the MES showed a temp of 225, despite being set for 220. I have read a lot about people building their own PID controller to get better temp regulation, so I was aware that temperature  control was going to be an issue.

However, despite these findings, I decided to proceed with my first recipe without making any compensation to the MES temperature settings.

I split the chick in half, as recommended by MES. I put the beans (just one can) in a small casserole dish. I put my Maverick probe in the chicken breast, set the MES to 220, and then monitored the temperatures every thirty minutes. I added two cups of water to the water tray. My goal was to cook for three hours.

The first issue is that the MES wouldn't quite get to 220 degrees. This is odd because, during my tests with the cooker empty it got hotter than 220, as I already noted above. I decide that this was due to the water in the pan. The hottest it ever got was about 215, and would sometimes dip below 210.

The big issue is that the chicken refused to go above 154 degrees. It stalled out at this temperature after about three hours, and after four hours had gone up exactly one more degree, to 155 degrees. Thinking there was some problem with the Maverick probe, I brought out my Thermapen and stuck the chicken and it gave me the same reading. The beans weren't very hot either.

I don't understand the thermodynamics of how the surround temperature can be 210 - 215, and yet not have the meat rise above 154.

I finally brought the chicken inside and we ate it. The meat was very moist and not underdone, so I can't complain.

Unfortunately, the smoke flavor, while tasty, was overpowering. The rub I used was completely and totally obliterated. I could have used anything and I don't think I would have tasted it.

So, while a little disappointed, and certainly very puzzled, I'm going to keep on plugging, although I think I will be only smoking for a very short amount of time having now learned that most definitely is such a thing as too much smoke.

I wonder if _not _using the water in the pan would decrease the amount of smokiness. It is my understanding that the moist environment is part of what helps the smoke adhere to the food. Should I not use water in the pan?

I'm all ears if anyone has suggestions or comments.


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## redsmoke (Nov 21, 2015)

It's a learning curve for sure 

I don't use water when I smoke in mine and never get dry food. 
Smoke I add chips not sawdust or big chunks every hour to 1.5. 
I did 3 chickens and had temp at 250 for atleast 4 hours. 
I've found that I need to run my smoker at a hotter temp to get results like most recipes 
It's trial and error nothing set in stone till you figure out how yours runs.  Rember take notes


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## Bearcarver (Nov 21, 2015)

In an MES definitely don't use any water in the pan.

Many hours of light smoke is Great, but a short time of heavy smoke can be bad.

It depends on where your probe is in the smoker to get different temps.

For chicken you should use higher temps than 220°---Maybe 250° for a couple hours---Then finish it with 275° until 165° IT.

Maybe some of these will help:

Just click on *"Bear's Step by Steps"*.

Bear


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## johnmeyer (Nov 21, 2015)

Bearcarver,

Many thanks for the useful input. I did read conflicting advice about the water. MES shows using the water pan in some of their videos, usually filling it with cider vinegar. However, I read a lot of posts in this forum with your advice of leaving it dry.

I'm not sure how to get light vs. heavy smoke using the standard MES electric chip smoker. Not sure if you are suggesting using an AMNS, or just simply saying I should use fewer chips per charge. Or, should I soak the chips? That seems to not be needed with an electric.

As for different temps top to bottom, that's why I did the test with the cups of oil, and it showed surprisingly little difference from top to bottom, but that was in an empty cooker with no smoke. I can see how a heavily loaded smoker could have some seriously different temps from one place to the next.

Based on your last comment I will definitely be more aggressive about increasing or decreasing the temperature, as needed.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 21, 2015)

You'll fight & fight & fight trying to get consistent smoke with the chip burner:

From Nothing to light smoke, to medium, to heavy, to too heavy, to medium, to light, to nothing.

Add more chips & start cycle again.

With an AMNPS, Learn how to light it properly, fill it, light it, watch it smoke real nice for up to 10 or 11 hours.

If you're at a High altitude, get an AMNTS (Tube). If not get an AMNPS 5 X 8 smoker.

Bear


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 21, 2015)

Welcome John...I have to wonder how big a load of chips you were using getting 1.5 hours of smoke? When I used chips I only added 1/4 Cup, 12 +/-, small Chips. These started generating clean Thin Blue Smoke quickly but had to be replaced every 30 minutes. I am thinking a big, full tray, load of chips may be the issue with the heavy flavor. Too many chips burn slowly and inefficiently causing a Creosote laden smoke that gives a strong and acrid taste. Add a lot of moisture in the smoker and you got what can easily perceived as over smoked meat. For smokes over 30 minutes, TBS is the only way to get good flavor without blowing away the meat. Without going into the Science of it, Moisture help smoking gasses penetrate the meat for a good Smoke Ring, but Dry meat takes on the best flavor and color. This is why you will see so many recipes for Chicken and other meats that say, " Dry in the refer overnight to form a Pellicle..." As far as smoke ring, chips don't generate enough of the needed Nitrogen Gasses to get one in an Electric Smoker so you are unlikely to see one anyway. Wood, Charcoal and Propane are the only smokers that make a good smoke ring. Choice of wood is important too. Hickory and especially Mesquite are strong flavors. Fruit woods are much more mild and a good choice for Poultry. Welcome to the MES Learning Curve...JJ


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## johnmeyer (Nov 21, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I have to wonder how big a load of chips you were using getting 1.5 hours of smoke?


I was filling the MES chip tray about 2/3 full. I got pretty good TBS after each charge; nothing heavy at all. Every 45-50 minutes I opened the charger opening and looked to see if there were any chips left. If it was all ash, I recharged, but if there were still some black chips, I waited for ten more minutes.


> Originally Posted by *Chef JimmyJ*  Without going into the Science of it, Moisture help smoking gasses penetrate the meat for a good Smoke Ring, but Dry meat takes on the best flavor and color.


The people at Cook's Illustrated, who are big on science, also make this point. However, a lot of people using MES equipment say not to use moisture.

I read a few posts in other parts of this forum which seem to blend the best of what you and Cook's Illustrated recommend, with those who say not to use water at all. The idea I'm going to try in the future is to only use about 1-2 cups of water. Actually for this first smoke, I only 2 cups of water which I boiled before pouring it in, so as to keep the smoker as near its set temperature as possible. The idea is to let the water boil off, and not replace it so you get the first part of the smoke wet, followed by dryer smoke. I think that is even the title of the post I read: wet & dry.

The same Cook's Illustrated article also points out that, even with TBS (although they don't call it that), the smoke later in the cook imparts a more bitter taste because the meat has already reached a saturation point, so the chemical reaction with the later smoke is different. Interesting, if true.


> Originally Posted by *Chef JimmyJ*  Choice of wood is important too. Hickory and especially Mesquite are strong flavors. Fruit woods are much more mild and a good choice for Poultry.


I plan to get some Apple the next time I'm at the store. I only have the two you mentioned, which I have been using in my gas BBQ, prior to getting the MES.


> Originally Posted by *Bearcarver*  With an AMNPS, Learn how to light it properly, fill it, light it, watch it smoke real nice for up to 10 or 11 hours.


There sure are a lot of people using this add-on. I think I'll get a few more smokes under my belt before I go buying more equipment, but the AMNPS sure gets a lot of posts in these forums.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 21, 2015)

Quote: The same Cook's Illustrated article also points out that, even with TBS (although they don't call it that), the smoke later in the cook imparts a more bitter taste because the meat has already reached a saturation point, so the chemical reaction with the later smoke is different. Interesting, if true.

I love that show and it's sister show America's Test Kitchen.  If you apply good clean TBS, there are flavors that penetrate until the surface reaches about 140°F. The meat proteins then coagulate and effectively seal the further combination of smoke gasses and meat juices, Myoglobin in particular. A Wet environment extends and speeds Nitrogen penetration but then letting moisture evaporate lets the meat dry and cook without extending the cook time from evaporative cooling. Additionally, smoke is made of flavorful Particulate Matter and other components that continue to settle on the surface increasing the smoke flavor. If the smoke is clean, as in tastes good, there are very little bitter components to start with so not much to build up. There is no real Chemical reaction taking place later in the cook, the surface is Dry unless you Spritz, as much as layering of flavorful smoke components...OR...Layering of nasty stuff if there to begin with. Heavy Smoke on meat like heavy Garlic, Salt or Pepper is not to everyones taste, and not applicable to every cook. There are many folks here that smoke for a few hours then just let the heat do it's thing. I like a stronger smoke flavor, even with mild woods, and make smoke the entire cook. Last point, clean smoke keeps imparting good flavor. If not there would be no one smoking Bacon and Country Hams for Days and sometimes Weeks for the last couple hundred years...True?

You have a pretty good grasp of how smoking works and will have things dialed in very soon. Take care...JJ


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## johnmeyer (Nov 21, 2015)

Quote:


Chef JimmyJ said:


> I love that show and it's sister show America's Test Kitchen.  If you apply good clean TBS, there are flavors that penetrate until the surface reaches about 140°F. The meat proteins then coagulate and effectively seal the further combination of smoke gasses and meat juices, Myoglobin in particular. <snip>


As an engineer, I love posts like this. I learned a lot that I can actually use. Thank you!


> Originally Posted by *Chef JimmyJ*    Last point, clean smoke keeps imparting good flavor. If not there would be no one smoking Bacon and Country Hams for Days and sometimes Weeks for the last couple hundred years...True?


True, although after skimming several hundred topic titles, I note there is something called "cold smoking" which I assume is what is used for those long smokes in an actual smokehouse. At those low temps, I don't think the changes in chemical reactions you talk about at 140 degrees would happen.

Since you understand the science and are interested in it, perhaps you would like to see exactly what they said at CI. However, you need a subscription to view the Cook's Illustrated/America's Test Kitchen material, so I've copied the short section here so anyone can read it.

This quote was from a "Smoked Chicken" recipe for BBQ smoking, rather than a pure smoker, but I think the science still probably applies.


> From Cook's Illustrated, July 2011 Issue
> [h4]Don't Oversmoke Your Chicken[/h4]
> To infuse our chicken pieces with full-bodied smoke flavor, we figured it was necessary to keep the wood chunks smoldering for the entire time that the meat was on the grill. But when the finished product tasted not just smoky, but also harsh and ashy, we wondered: Was there a limit to the amount of smoke that the chicken could take?
> 
> ...


So, that's their explanation, not mine. They do have some science people on staff, but having said that, they also don't have any recipes for smokers (although they've reviewed traditional kettle smokers), so I'm not holding them up as an authority on this subject.

P.S. That same article also has something to say about water:


> From Cook's Illustrated, July 2011 Issue
> 
> "Stowing a pan of water under the chicken on the cool side of the grill provided humidity that stabilized the temperature of the grill and helped prevent the delicate breast meat in our grill-smoked chicken from drying out."


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 22, 2015)

Quote: True, although after skimming several hundred topic titles, I note there is something called "cold smoking" which I assume is what is used for those long smokes in an actual smokehouse. At those low temps, I don't think the changes in chemical reactions you talk about at 140 degrees would happen.

The chemical and flavoring reactions are with hundreds of components in smoke. These are generated by the wood and whether the gases and particles contact hot or cold the flavor changes take place. Heat speeds up the reaction, hours vs. days, but either way the flavor components of smoke are there, hot or cold. The color fixing reaction of Myoglobin and Nitrogen Dioxide takes place but is only really seen in the cooked Bacon or Ham. If this didn't happen the cooked product would be gray as no smoke is applied in the pan or oven.

Quote: 

*Explantion*

Smoke contains both water- and fat-soluble compounds. As the chicken cooks, water evaporates and fat drips away, eventually halting meat’s capacity to continue absorbing smoke flavor. Once that happens, any additional smoke flavor that’s not absorbed by the meat gets deposited on the exterior of the chicken, where the heat of the grill breaks it down into harsher—flavored compounds.

 What they fail to realize or at least point out, there is a big difference between throwing a couple chunks of wood in a closed Kettle with a restricted air flow and purpose designed Smokers. They will not get the same result with a well designed smoker. Smokers are designed to make smoke and heat, move them to and past the meat and exit the smoker. They are trying to make a grill perform as smoker. What is the old adage... Jack of all trades and master of none?  I suspect the issues they encountered were with Creosote and not the compounds they vaguely describe. Some additional info... http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/f/f062904a.htm There is just too many components and to many smoke generation and air flow variables to point a finger at a few and say this is why it tastes bad. Cook's Illustrated is a well written magazine that goes beyond providing a Recipe and and step by step production but smoking article is still designed to pull off a reasonable facsimile of Smoked Chicken for the average home cook with limited equipment...JJ


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## Bearcarver (Nov 22, 2015)

Hi John,

I gotta agree with every part that JJ said that I understand, and I will only add that:

In some Smokers a water pan should have water in it, but not in an MES.

It's insulated so well that it holds a lot of Humidity. Condensation is always on the inside of the window in the door, in fact I'm in the process of investigating why my new MES gets way more water on the inside of the window than my 5 year old Gen #1 did.  LOL--I'm on it !!!

Bear


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## johnmeyer (Nov 22, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> In some Smokers a water pan should have water in it, but not in an MES.
> 
> It's insulated so well that it holds a lot of Humidity. Condensation is always on the inside of the window in the door, in fact I'm in the process of investigating why my new MES gets way more water on the inside of the window than my 5 year old Gen #1 did.  LOL--I'm on it !!!


You sure are right about the condensation. After my first smoke, the concrete under smoker was swimming in water that had condensed on the door and then run downward and exited through the gasket at the bottom. I tightened the latch one turn to reduce that for the next time I use the smoker.

However, from what you are saying, there will be enough water from the food to keep the humidity at a good level in the cooker. This was especially true in my first smoke because I had a pan of uncovered beans in the smoker at the same time as my chicken, and the pan containing 2 cups of water.

I'll be putting aluminum foil under the door until I get this all figured out.

I'm sure learning a lot by reading these forums. One of the best I've found.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 22, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> You sure are right about the condensation. After my first smoke, the concrete under smoker was swimming in water that had condensed on the door and then run downward and exited through the gasket at the bottom. I tightened the latch one turn to reduce that for the next time I use the smoker.
> 
> However, from what you are saying, there will be enough water from the food to keep the humidity at a good level in the cooker. This was especially true in my first smoke because I had a pan of uncovered beans in the smoker at the same time as my chicken, and the pan containing 2 cups of water.
> 
> ...


This shows it.

I just took this from my last "Prime Rib" Step by Step.

It was the first Prime Rib I did with my new #2.5 MES 40.

I already had that caption above that picture back when I Smoked that Prime Rib:

Note condensation on inside of glass, without adding water, showing why water is not needed in an MES Water Pan:
http://s836.photobucket.com/user/Bearcarver_2009/media/DSCN1886.jpg.html

Here's that whole Step by Step:

*--Smoked Prime Rib (Panned #3)   *

*Bear*


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> Bearcarver,
> 
> Many thanks for the useful input. I did read conflicting advice about the water. MES shows using the water pan in some of their videos, usually filling it with cider vinegar. However, I read a lot of posts in this forum with your advice of leaving it dry.
> 
> ...


I agree with Bear. Don't use the water pan. Keep it empty and foil it over. But keep it in place because it does help to properly distribute the heat inside the smoker.


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## johnmeyer (Nov 22, 2015)

Working on a tri-tip right now. Not quite willing to give up on the water, given all the different advice I've seen, and given that Masterbuilt does show the pan being filled in their videos. So, I put only one cup of boiling water in there, and don't plan to re-fill. There were several posts about this technique somewhere in this forum ("wet & dry"), along with the rationale, and it seemed to make sense. We'll see how it goes. Hard to screw up tri-tip.


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## johnmeyer (Nov 22, 2015)

Finished my second smoke, this time tri-tip.

I started with a fairly small 2.9 lb tri-tip. I removed the fat cap.













Tri-Tip%2001_zpslftfp4iv.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






I used the standard 1:1:1 pepper:salt:garlic powder rub.













Tri-Tip%2002_zpsjiwz5d1s.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






While doing all this, I preheated the smoker to 275.

After much thought and discussion I decided to use a small amount of water in the pan which I boiled before adding.













Tri-Tip%2003_zpsksgun8nd.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






I put the tri-tip on the middle rack, set the smoker to 225, and smoked until I got an internal temp of 145.













Tri-Tip%2005_zpsp1hbhta8.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






I was planning to go to a lower temp, but the internal temperature skyrocketed rather quickly. I turned down the smoker temp to 200, but it still went up fast. This is strange, because one of the main reasons I started this thread was that in my first smoke the food temp stalled out and wouldn't increase. By contrast, in this case the meat got too hot too fast.

I then cranked up the BBQ and gave it a 3 minute/side sear. My old Weber, unfortunately, is not capable of doing a good flash sear. Perhaps I'll use a blowtorch next time.













Tri-Tip%2004_zps6lbc1lif.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






The finall result looked pretty good, although I'd prefer a better sear (I could also use the cast iron skillet, I suppose):













Tri-Tip%2006_zpszlcmsigb.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






I would have preferred the final result to be slightly more rare, a little more juicy, and a little more tender. However, it tasted fabulous, and when cooled and slightly frozen, I'll feed it to my slicer and make super-thin slices for sandwiches. (Anyone have a good tri-tip sandwich recipe?).













Tri-Tip%2007_zpsuttwvdhx.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 22, 2015






I'm still very much in the learning mode, so any comments or suggestions are most welcome.


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## daricksta (Nov 23, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> Finished my second smoke, this time tri-tip.
> 
> I started with a fairly small 2.9 lb tri-tip. I removed the fat cap.
> 
> ...


First, I never put water in the water pan because it isn't needed. But why did you use boiling water? If you choose to pour a cup of water into the pan it doesn't need to be boiling.  The problem with the water pan is that it's too large for the MES 30 Gen 1 and just serves to steam the food as it slow cooks. You can't build up bark in a humid cooking environment, at least not in that smoker (the same one that I own). Boiling water only exacerbates the problem.

How quickly did that IT rise?  How many minutes/hours were you into the smoke when you lowered the temp to 225°? There are quite a few top BBQ restaurants that will smoke their meats at 225° but for me that's too low. I prefer 235-240. As for preheating your smoker to 275° I never do that.

That tri-tip--although a gorgeous hunk o' meat--was a relatively small roast compared to a beef brisket, a chuck roast, or a pork shoulder. All 3 of those need to be cooked to an IT in the range of 190-200°. You can't sear a tri-tip in a smoker but you might be able to get some bark by applying a dry rub. Is that Weber a propane grill? I know that with my Weber kettle charcoal grill I can easily and quickly get searing temps. I once smoked some bone-in ribeye steaks in my MES 30 and finished them on the Weber. You could also have finished the tri-tip under the broiler in your kitchen oven or in a cast iron or stainless steel skillet over a stove top burner set to medium high or high.

But, the tri-tip looks perfectly cooked. What type of wood chips did you use?  However, after you get tired of adding wood chips every 20-30 minutes you'll want to look into getting a pellet smoker to place inside your MES.


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## johnmeyer (Nov 23, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> First, I never put water in the water pan because it isn't needed. But why did you use boiling water? If you choose to pour a cup of water into the pan it doesn't need to be boiling.


I used boiling water so that it would boil off before the smoking and cooking was finished. My inspiration for having part of the smoke be "wet," with water in the pan, and the second part "dry," with no water in the pan, was this article:

Wet-to-Dry No-Foil Smoke Chamber Method


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*    How quickly did that IT rise?  How many minutes/hours were you into the smoke when you lowered the temp to 225°?


Really fast. It was up to 120 degree, from room temp, in less than 45 minutes. I _started _at 225. That was as hot as I ever set the smoker. I then lowered it down to 200 degrees after about 75 minutes. I used 225 degrees because most of the beef recipes at the Masterbuilt site suggest this as the temperature to use:

Masterbuilt Smoked Beef Recipes


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*    As for preheating your smoker to 275° I never do that.


I was simply following the directions given by Masterbuilt in their instruction manual. Here is the direct quote:

_"Pre-heat smoker for 30 to 45 minutes at max temperature before loading food."_
I would think that if you started cold, and then put the food into the smoker and also the chips, the electric heater would absolutely nuke the wood chips resulting in way too much smoke during the first part of the process. By having it preheated, assuming you don't leave the door open for five minutes, the heater should only cycle on for a relatively short time during the first 10-15 minutes, resulting in much more even smoke. I'm sure this is why I didn't have to add chips until over an hour had gone by, and even then, I still had TBS.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*     That tri-tip--although a gorgeous hunk o' meat--was a relatively small roast compared to a beef brisket, a chuck roast, or a pork shoulder. All 3 of those need to be cooked to an IT in the range of 190-200°.


Wow, that seems pretty high IT to me. I've cooked meats to that temperature when I want them to fall apart, like a pulled-pork recipe. I still wanted to be able to slice this. There sure wouldn't be any pink left at that temperature, and I would think the meat would get quite dry. I actually thought it was a little dry, even at the 140 IT.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*      Is that Weber a propane grill?  <snip> You could also have finished the tri-tip under the broiler in your kitchen oven or in a cast iron or stainless steel skillet over a stove top burner set to medium high or high.


Yes, it is a natural gas grill (connected directly to my house gas line), but 21 years old. It doesn't have a "super high" sear setting. I did mention in my initial post that I might try using a blow torch or a cast iron skillet to provide a better sear next time.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*      But, the tri-tip looks perfectly cooked. What type of wood chips did you use?  However, after you get tired of adding wood chips every 20-30 minutes you'll want to look into getting a pellet smoker to place inside your MES.


I used hickory. I definitely didn't need to add chips every 20-30 minutes and didn't add a second lot until 65 minutes into the process. I don't find this a particularly difficult thing to do, so at this point, I haven't found the need for the add on smoke device. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I were doing an 8-10 hour smoke.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 23, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> I used boiling water so that it would boil off before the smoking and cooking was finished. My inspiration for having part of the smoke be "wet," with water in the pan, and the second part "dry," with no water in the pan, was this article: *I don't think Eric was referring to an MES when he posted that "Wet & Dry" thing. An MES is a humid smoke without putting water in the pan. That picture I showed above shows how there's too much water (**Humidity) in an MES without adding water in the Pan.*
> 
> T*he nearly unanimous MES users on this forum that learned years ago not to use water in the pan know a lot more than whoever wrote the Masterbuilt Instruction Manifold. They also say to soak your chips----Another bad idea. There are hundreds of MES owners on this forum who know more about their MES than the Instruction manual editor.*
> Wet-to-Dry No-Foil Smoke Chamber Method
> ...


*Bear*


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## Bearcarver (Nov 23, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> Working on a tri-tip right now. Not quite willing to give up on the water, given all the different advice I've seen, and given that Masterbuilt does show the pan being filled in their videos. So, I put only one cup of boiling water in there, and don't plan to re-fill. There were several posts about this technique somewhere in this forum ("wet & dry"), along with the rationale, and it seemed to make sense. We'll see how it goes. Hard to screw up tri-tip.


That's one of the things wrong in Masterbuilt's book.. That and they say to soak chips---Another bad idea. These are not just my ideas. Just trying to shorten your learning curve.

Also, You can't do a Wet & Dry smoke with an MES. Putting water in the pan in the beginning would make a Real wet & and still real wet, because without water in the pan, it's still too wet.

See my picture above again----No water was added !!

Bear


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## daricksta (Nov 23, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> I used boiling water so that it would boil off before the smoking and cooking was finished. My inspiration for having part of the smoke be "wet," with water in the pan, and the second part "dry," with no water in the pan, was this article:
> 
> Wet-to-Dry No-Foil Smoke Chamber Method
> 
> ...


I disagree with that wet-to-dry post based on my personal experience with my MES 30 smoking with wood pellets. I cook in a dry chamber and I'm the one who controls how much smoke is absorbed by meats depending on how many hours they're kept in contact with the wood smoke. I can tell you that it's easy to over smoke meat in the MES 30 and it's just as easy to control the environment so that meats get the perfect amount of smoke that pleases your palate. The same thing applies to cold smoking foods like cheeses.

But if that guy's technique works for him with his smoker, that's great. There's a school of thought that once a pellicle forms on the surface of meat (at around 160° IT) it prevents any additional smoke absorption. Most people around here have debunked that and I agree with them. I'm a minimalist when it comes to smoking. I use the AMNPS and wood pellets because I can precisely control how much smoke is produced inside the smoker. For long smokes, I'll foil meat after a pre-determined number of hours to prevent any additional contact with smoke while the meat cooks to the IT I'm looking for. Near the end I'll un-foil the meat for a bit more smoke contact after I brush on some finishing BBQ sauce for an additional layer of flavor and to add a bit of moisture to the bark, which is my own personal style of smoking.

I agree with preheating the MES; I was just disagreeing on how high a temp to preheat it to.  And as I wrote previously I don't preheat my smoker to 275°. If my set point is 235° I'll let it get up to 250 before I open the door and place the AMNPS and the meat inside the smoker.  My preheat process takes no more than about 30 minutes in warm weather. I rarely smoke in cold weather but I don't think it would take much longer than that. When it's hit 250 I put both the AMNPS and the meat inside the smoker.

The MES 30 is so small inside it recovers the heat pretty quickly, or at least mine does. And keep in mind that the MES 30 Gen 1 does not have a short heating cycle. The first couple are fairly long so you'll see temp overshoots and fallbacks. After the smoke enters its second or third hour you'll see the temp remain fairly stable and you'll see that the controller temp if not matching your own thermometer is actually pretty close. And with an MES you want your own therm. I use the Maverick ET-733. If the ET-733 shows me the temp is higher or lower than I want it I'll fiddle with the controller temp. Bearcarver has an excellent step-by-step for preciously controlling the MES cooking temps. But my experience with my MES 30 has been that the controller is programmed to cycle a few times during the early part of the smoke whether the door has been left open for a few seconds to a minute or not.

Yes, 190-200° is a high IT range but I was only referring to pork shoulder, beef brisket and boneless chuck roast and that's where you want those cuts of meat to finish. You want that high IT so ensure almost all the fat has been rendered along with the collagen and other connective tissue. Believe me, I've paid the price for undercooking those. And with those meats since there's so much fat to be rendered (even after trimming off the hard fat) it's really tough to dry them out unless you cook them a few hours too long. Tri-tip and other better cuts of meat are different. You want those medium to medium rare (I have to cook my wife's meats to at least 150 or she claims that it's still mooing). That's why I said your tri-tip was perfectly cooked.

Your grill is 21 years old? That's why I couldn't find it on the Weber site. I knew it was propane from the hose under the grill. When it comes to smoking I'm a minimalist and when it comes to grilling I consider myself a purist. That's why I love my Weber 22.5" One Touch Silver. To me, charcoal--either briquette or lump--is the only fuel for grilling and it's also perfect for reverse searing of meat. But yeah, finishing the meat in a cast iron skillet over high heat on a stove top burner or sticking it under a really hot broiler are classic ways to achieve this.

Did you still see plenty of TBS coming up from the top vent even though you didn't add any until 65 minutes into your cook? One thing to be aware of: you'll almost always see some smoke coming out of the top vent. With new smokers it could be from improperly pre-seasoning it. But after the smoker's been used quite a bit grease and other deposits will build up and they'll produce smoke. I'm not a fanatic when it comes to cleaning the inside of my smoker so I'll see some smoke rising out of the top vent while preheating. But once I place the AMNPS inside I start seeing real smoke rising. But from my personal experience when I was using wood chips that I would barely see any smoke after about 20-30 minutes and when I opened the MES door there was hardly any smoke inside. Many members here have also seen this when using wood chips with a MES.

However, as you said you didn't need to smoke the tri-tip for that long and one batch of wood chips should've been sufficient. And yes, for an 8-11 hour smoke that would've been different and that's when wood chips become a PITA.

Hickory is a great go-too wood for just about anything. For me it can be a bit too aggressive. I'd say my overall favorite wood pellet for smoking is oak; it's so smooth and mellow but I do use hickory a lot. When I smoke tri-tip I like using mesquite wood pellets to emulate the Santa Maria (California) style of grilled tri-tip. But I also prefer grilled tri-tip to smoked. If I'm grilling over charcoal I'll throw mesquite wood chips over the coals, even if I'm using lump charcoal.


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## daricksta (Nov 23, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> *Bear*


If my response to johnmeyer hadn't been so lengthy I was going to add that using a water pan can make since in those really expensive electric smokers where 275° or so is the MINIMUM temp they cook at and drying out the meat can become an issue. That's why Myron Mixon's expensive electric smokers are electric water smokers.

Like you, the meat I smoke in my MES turns out moist, tender and flavorful. The only exception is if I leave something like baby backs in there for 7 hours or so. I did that once. Once.


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## johnmeyer (Nov 23, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I disagree with that wet-to-dry post based on my personal experience with my MES 30 smoking with wood pellets. I cook in a dry chamber and I'm the one who controls how much smoke is absorbed by meats depending on how many hours they're kept in contact with the wood smoke. I can tell you that it's easy to over smoke meat in the MES 30 and it's just as easy to control the environment so that meats get the perfect amount of smoke that pleases your palate.


I definitely need to try a recipe both ways in order to figure this out for myself. Based on my skimming a lot of posts, the majority opinion in this forum, when talking about the MES, is to smoke dry.

As for over-smoking meat, that is definitely true. While I'm not a fan of French cooking and all those fancy sauces, I do nonetheless have an appreciate for their _subtlety. _By its nature, there is absolutely nothing subtle about smoke, and so a little goes a long way. One focus of my next few attempts will be how to tone down the smokiness a few notches.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*
> Your grill is 21 years old? That's why I couldn't find it on the Weber site. I knew it was propane from the hose under the grill.


It is a Weber Genesis 1000. It is natural gas, not propane (i.e., no tank). Burners are mounted side-to-side, rather than front-to-back as they are on most modern gas BBQs. I've replaced dozens of parts, but it is still in great shape. It does a good job on most things, but it just doesn't have the heat, even after extensive pre-heating, to get a good sear.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*
> Did you still see plenty of TBS coming up from the top vent even though you didn't add any until 65 minutes into your cook? One thing to be aware of: you'll almost always see some smoke coming out of the top vent. With new smokers it could be from improperly pre-seasoning it.


I pre-seasoned it for more than the recommended time, and then did a long preheat before my first smoke. There was no smoke coming from it towards the end of the seasoning. As for the TBS being from the food or something else, I also looked though the charging hold and was able to see some black chips remaining, rather than just ash.


> Originally Posted by *daRicksta*
> 
> Hickory is a great go-too wood for just about anything. For me it can be a bit too aggressive.


I'm trying to not change too many variables at once, so that I can really know what I'm doing and get repeatable results. However, at some point I plan to get some Apple. I already have Mesquite, but that really only works with a few foods, even though I love it.


> But I also prefer grilled tri-tip to smoked.


I'm on the fence, based on this one experience. However, I do agree that not everything is made better in a smoker. Having said that, I think there are some in this forum who would smoke their Wheaties, if they could


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## johnmeyer (Nov 23, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> *My Weber "Q" grill won't get hot enough for a quick sear either. I would suggest Smoking it with about a 200° smoker, and pull it out at about 120° IT. Then Grill it just like you would normally grill a non-smoked Steak. That way you get the smoke & the grilled flavor. This is only because your grill, like mine, doesn't get hot enough for the quick hot sear.*


Thanks for those pointers. They are _really _useful. As I think about it, your suggestions, taken together, would solve almost all the issues I mentioned in my post. I may try this this weekend when my son comes home for the holiday.


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## johnmeyer (Nov 23, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *Bearcarver*
> 
> See my picture above again----No water was added !!


Things are definitely making more sense. My first smoke was with chicken, but I also put a can of baked beans in a dish and put them on the top rack. AND, I had water in the pan. I had water everywhere, including water leaking from the door gasket at the bottom.

OK, next few smokes will be with no water, and if I do beans or mac 'n cheese, I'll do them separately.


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## daricksta (Nov 24, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> Thanks for those pointers. They are _really _useful. As I think about it, your suggestions, taken together, would solve almost all the issues I mentioned in my post. I may try this this weekend when my son comes home for the holiday.


As for over-smoking meat, that is definitely true. While I'm not a fan of French cooking and all those fancy sauces, I do nonetheless have an appreciate for their _subtlety._ By its nature, there is absolutely nothing subtle about smoke, and so a little goes a long way. One focus of my next few attempts will be how to tone down the smokiness a few notches.

That's the beauty of the AMNPS. You control the precise amount of time meat is exposed to the wood smoke. Unlike wood chips, wood pellets in the tray provide a constant stream of smoke. Yes, it can be a bit heavier at some times than at others but you're not always calculating both when to add more chips over and how long to let the meat absorb it. With wood pellets it's just a question of long to either leave meat inside the smoker or when to foil and unfoil. Oversmoking food is basically keeping it in contact with smoke for too long. But like all things the palate is personal. While I prefer smoke to enhance the flavors of meat and cheeses other people may say it's not nearly enough smoke for them. So, with your experimenting with low and slow cooking over wood smoke you'll at some point(s) find out what amount of smoke you prefer and you'll learn how to replicate that every time. Of course you'll also learn which wood "flavors" you prefer and don't prefer, even which wood mixes work for best for you. For me, hickory and apple work; alder and apple, not so much.


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## daricksta (Nov 24, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> I definitely need to try a recipe both ways in order to figure this out for myself. Based on my skimming a lot of posts, the majority opinion in this forum, when talking about the MES, is to smoke dry.
> 
> As for over-smoking meat, that is definitely true. While I'm not a fan of French cooking and all those fancy sauces, I do nonetheless have an appreciate for their _subtlety. _By its nature, there is absolutely nothing subtle about smoke, and so a little goes a long way. One focus of my next few attempts will be how to tone down the smokiness a few notches.
> 
> ...


Wow, this time I got all your quotes and not just a partial one. Anyway. thanks for clarifying about the Weber. I thought all those gas grills ran on propane but I sure didn't know the older ones couldn't get hot enough to sear. My ongoing problem with my beloved Weber charcoal kettle grill is that I'm always adding too many briquettes because I never think what I have in there is enough. Because of that I tend to overcook meats unless I remain standing right there at the grill with my instant read therm, which I usually don't.

I've just noticed with my MES that some smoke will flow out of the top vent during the preheat even though I haven't yet placed the AMNPS inside. I think mine's done that from the very beginning. But I also think at this point it's grease and other residue that's producing the smoke. I'm no fanatic about cleaning the inside and from what I've seen on TV neither are the pros. But yes, you could see smoke from some partially burned wood chips.

You're wise to change few variables at one time. Many people keep extensive logs of every smoke. I don't. I can remember enough from every smoke to keep a running mental log of what wood pellets I used, the temp(s) I smoked at, how long the smoke lasted, what dry rubs and sauces I applied, and how long I kept meat foiled and unfoiled. I can remember which smokes were smooth as glass and which ones were nightmares. At this point I'm working on consistency and improvement. I pretty much know to get the flavor profiles I want. My next big project is to consistently get the exact look, firmness and texture of bark on pork ribs and beef briskets. My goal is to learn something from every smoke--what worked and what didn't. When a smoke doesn't turn out like I wanted it to I can pinpoint exactly where I went wrong. Combining your experiences over time you develop your own style while learning how to produce extremely good Q at home.

Smoked Wheaties? You may have hit upon a niche market. Go for it.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Wow, this time I got all your quotes and not just a partial one. Anyway. thanks for clarifying about the Weber. I thought all those gas grills ran on propane but I sure didn't know the older ones couldn't get hot enough to sear. My ongoing problem with my beloved Weber charcoal kettle grill is that I'm always adding too many briquettes because I never think what I have in there is enough. Because of that I tend to overcook meats unless I remain standing right there at the grill with my instant read therm, which I usually don't.
> 
> I've just noticed with my MES that some smoke will flow out of the top vent during the preheat even though I haven't yet placed the AMNPS inside. I think mine's done that from the very beginning. But I also think at this point it's grease and other residue that's producing the smoke. I'm no fanatic about cleaning the inside and from what I've seen on TV neither are the pros. But yes, you could see smoke from some partially burned wood chips.
> 
> ...


Yes---I agree that without any wood, dust, or pellets in the smoker, the smoke we usually see coming out the top vent is grease & other things burning off.

Also when it's cold out it looks like smoke coming out the top vent, and that stuff smells like smoke, but if you have a window in your door, you can easily see that there is no smoke in the smoker. That has the same appearance as when we exhale into the cold air.

Bear


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## daricksta (Nov 25, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Yes---I agree that without any wood, dust, or pellets in the smoker, the smoke we usually see coming out the top vent is grease & other things burning off.
> 
> Also when it's cold out it looks like smoke coming out the top vent, and that stuff smells like smoke, but if you have a window in your door, you can easily see that there is no smoke in the smoker. That has the same appearance as when we exhale into the cold air.
> 
> Bear


Would like to test your theory today seeing as how the temp today will be between 30-40 degrees out there. How am I to know if the smoke I see wafting its way upward from the top vent is grease and other things or if it's condensation?  

What does condensed grease look like?


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## Bearcarver (Nov 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Would like to test your theory today seeing as how the temp today will be between 30-40 degrees out there. How am I to know if the smoke I see wafting its way upward from the top vent is grease and other things or if it's condensation?
> 
> What does condensed grease look like?


If you have a window in your door, you could see any kind of smoke through a clean window, but you would only see the condensation (fog) when it comes out of the hot smoker into the cold air.

Without a Window, I would watch how far it gets from the smoker without dispersing (Actual smoke staying visible for a longer time). IMO

Neither would be condensed Grease---If it's coming from grease, it would be burning grease "Smoke".

Bear


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## johnmeyer (Nov 25, 2015)

Leftovers tonight. The tri-tip slices up just great using my slicer. Now I have to figure out what to put on the sandwich. Anyone have any ideas?













Tri-Tip%20Sliced_zpsjodh9rqr.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Nov 25, 2015


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## daricksta (Nov 25, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> If you have a window in your door, you could see any kind of smoke through a clean window, but you would only see the condensation (fog) when it comes out of the hot smoker into the cold air.
> 
> Without a Window, I would watch how far it gets from the smoker without dispersing (Actual smoke staying visible for a longer time). IMO
> 
> ...


I was just being silly with that question. What I noticed today is that when the AMNPS first fires up on a cold day inside a cold MES the smoke pours out thickly from the top vent and flows down onto and past the smoker. It looks very much like a dry ice or liquid nitrogen. After a bit it thins out into TBS and that's when I have to monitor it because after about 40 minutes or so the pellets snuff themselves out.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 26, 2015)

johnmeyer said:


> Leftovers tonight. The tri-tip slices up just great using my slicer. Now I have to figure out what to put on the sandwich. Anyone have any ideas?


Hmmmmm---Looks Tasty!!

So many ways:

First Choice for me----Au Jus as a French Dip.

If you eat it cold, I'd go with Miracle Whip (Mayo if you like it more bland), and Horse Radish---Add some Cheese too. (American, Provolone, or Swiss). Maybe even use Rye Bread on this.

Or you could heat some up, add Provolone, and a little Sauce & Fried Onions, for a Philly Cheesesteak.

Bear


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## johnmeyer (Nov 27, 2015)

I went with horseradish with a little mayo & lemon. Wife did BBQ sauce. Both were quite good.


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