# Cured and smoked sausage question



## atcnick (Nov 5, 2010)

Is it safe to cure pork for sausage, grind it, stuff it and then freeze the sausage BEFORE you smoke it?  We want to smoke it a few weeks after we make it.  Are there any problems that I should be aware of?


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## alblancher (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't see how that would be different from freezing breakfast sausage and cooking as you need it.  I would be careful thawing it out, keep in fridge for the thaw.  I would hate to have it sit on the counter top for a couple of hours and then sit in a smoker for a couple of hours before getting to temp.  Don't think natural casings will be affected negatively, maybe collagen casings would get soft?

Al


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## midwesternrands (Nov 5, 2010)

I would highly recommend *not* doing this.  With a product that you are curing, you really should cook it within 12-24 hours of making the product because otherwise the nitrite will dissipate and once you cook the product weeks later, it will not be properly cured or not even cured at all if all the nitrite has dissipated by then.

I would either wait to make the product until you are ready to smoke it, or make it and smoke it and just reheat it when you want it in a few weeks.


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## DanMcG (Nov 5, 2010)

I really don't see a problem as long as you give the cure time to do it's thing. I'd let my sausage age in the refrig for 24 hours then do what you want, after a day cure they're just like a store bought sausage . only better.

Midwest maybe you can explain, I never heard of the cure dissipating, but I'm always ready to learn something new


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## alblancher (Nov 5, 2010)

What is the point of the cure if you keep the sausage frozen/refrigerated and then cook in a hot smoker?  If the sausage is intended to be eaten right away and as long as you get past the danger zone in 4 hours and get to the recommended internal temp you don't even need cure.   I make fresh sausage without the cure all the time but it is handled differently then when I make a slower cooked, cured sausage.  The cure he is adding during prep will help preserve the "color" and help guarantee a safe product.

Dan, I would think that if the product if frozen for 8 - 10 months then prepared you will find some loss of the 'curitative properties' but a couple of weeks, I agree will not affect it.    But then again, I'm not real excited about eating anything that's been in the freezer for 8 -10 months.


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## DanMcG (Nov 5, 2010)

alblancher said:


> .    But then again, I'm not real excited about eating anything that's been in the freezer for 8 -10 months.


Come on Al, If you're like me it would never be in the freezer 8-10 weeks let alone 8-10 months


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## Bearcarver (Nov 5, 2010)

MidWesternRandS said:


> I would highly recommend *not* doing this.  With a product that you are curing, you really should cook it within 12-24 hours of making the product because otherwise the nitrite will dissipate and once you cook the product weeks later, it will not be properly cured or not even cured at all if all the nitrite has dissipated by then.
> 
> I would either wait to make the product until you are ready to smoke it, or make it and smoke it and just reheat it when you want it in a few weeks.


I was thinking I read this somewhere before, and now that you said it, I'm sure I read that before. I don't remember where. I think it was longer than 12 to 24 hours, but it wasn't more than a couple days either. I would not do this.

Bear


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## alblancher (Nov 5, 2010)

Seems like we are all correct in our opinions.

“Cured meats develop rancidity more rapidly than frozen fresh meats.  It is customary to freeze bellies or hams only before curing.  In addition to rancidity, changes in flavor and texture occur in frozen cured meats.  The relative stability of refrigerated cured meats decreases the need for frozen storage: however, the end user may desire to freeze portions of large products, such as hams.  This can be done if the meat is properly wrapped and not held for more than a few weeks.  Longer storage periods lead to flavor changes”

[h1]*Handbook of food science, technology, and engineering, Volume 2*[/h1]

 By Yiu H. Hui


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## alblancher (Nov 5, 2010)

*Freezing.* Meat products that have salt added to them during processing are not particularly suitable for freezing. Salt accelerates the development of rancidity and thus decreases freezer life. With a freezer set at 0 degrees F, intact ham and bacon can be frozen for two months whereas sliced bacon and most sausages have a freezer life of one month. When the freezer is set at -15 degrees F, freezer life is doubled.  University of Minnesota Extension Service,  Processing Meat in the Home,  *Richard J. Epley and Paul B. Addis  *     
[h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1]


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## boykjo (Nov 5, 2010)

need to be more specific. Cure the meat before grinding? I would grind then cure. I dont see a problem with it but the sausage will not not have the same sausage consistancy.  The meat will become mushy or not have the right texture. Remember your looking for taste, but your also looking for right presentation of the sausage should feel when you bite into it.


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## midwesternrands (Nov 5, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> I really don't see a problem as long as you give the cure time to do it's thing. I'd let my sausage age in the refrig for 24 hours then do what you want, after a day cure they're just like a store bought sausage . only better.
> 
> Midwest maybe you can explain, I never heard of the cure dissipating, but I'm always ready to learn something new


I agree that you need to let any product you are curing sit in the fridge for a period of time, unless you are using some sort of cure excellerator (I always use a cure excellerator such as sodium erythorbate and I smoke the product immediately).  I would recommend 12-24 hours of time for the sausage to "age" (or however you want to describe it) in the fridge, but then once you have reached this time, if it were me, I would go ahead and smoke it.  Even if a product doesn't cure right, it will still taste good and it should still be edible (assuming food safety guidelines were followed), but you will notice a slight change in flavor and possibly texture.

And Dan, I agree and prefer homemade sausage to store bought sausage!


alblancher said:


> What is the point of the cure if you keep the sausage frozen/refrigerated and then cook in a hot smoker?  If the sausage is intended to be eaten right away and as long as you get past the danger zone in 4 hours and get to the recommended internal temp you don't even need cure.   I make fresh sausage without the cure all the time but it is handled differently then when I make a slower cooked, cured sausage.  The cure he is adding during prep will help preserve the "color" and help guarantee a safe product.


Cure, along with giving you a "redder" colored product, will also change the flavor profile.  If you take a bratwurst that is typically a "fresh" product and make it into a cured product, it will have a slightly different taste, so cure does hold some importance other than aiding in meat preservation.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> *Freezing.* Meat products that have salt added to them during processing are not particularly suitable for freezing. Salt accelerates the development of rancidity and thus decreases freezer life. With a freezer set at 0 degrees F, intact ham and bacon can be frozen for two months whereas sliced bacon and most sausages have a freezer life of one month. When the freezer is set at -15 degrees F, freezer life is doubled.  University of Minnesota Extension Service,  Processing Meat in the Home,  *Richard J. Epley and Paul B. Addis  *
> [h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1]


Al,
A bit extreme?

My meat freezer is always at 0˚.

If I was to listen to this, I'd have to throw away 95% of my stash.

Bear


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## DanMcG (Nov 6, 2010)

atcnick said:


> Is it safe to cure pork for sausage, grind it, stuff it and then freeze the sausage BEFORE you smoke it? We want to smoke it a few weeks after we make it. Are there any problems that I should be aware of?


Ok back to the original question. I can't answer it but I was wondering how others would hold the raw cured sausage for lets say 3 weeks? In the frig in a plastic bag? .


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> Ok back to the original question. I can't answer it but I was wondering how others would hold the raw cured sausage for lets say 3 weeks? In the frig in a plastic bag? .


OK Dan, back to my original answer--I would not even think of doing that.

When I have time, I will see if I can find where it said "That is a NO-NO".

Bear


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## bbally (Nov 6, 2010)

If you are using real cure (nitrite and/or nitrate) and not just salt you can freeze after 24 hours with no problem.

Cured products freeze well for a year of more if the freezer is 0 F or below.  Extension service quote is correct, there is a big difference between 0 F and -15 F in the length of time a product will hold.  However most 0 F freezer are able to hold cured meats for well over one year.  Of course packaging prior to freezing is really the important step.  Vacuum pack and it will last years.

Slack the product off in the refridgerator to keep product texture and flavor correct.


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## DanMcG (Nov 6, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> I would not even think of doing that.
> 
> Bear


I wouldn't either, I'm sure it's shelf life is limited, and maybe if vacuum sealed it would be a bit longer.  I got to research this too,


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## shooterrick (Nov 6, 2010)

I have cured and smoked much sausage and CB and then vac packed and froze for several months without a problem.  I try and use fresh sausage after freezing within 3 mos.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

ShooterRick said:


> I have cured and smoked much sausage and CB and then vac packed and froze for several months without a problem.  I try and use fresh sausage after freezing within 3 mos.


Me too Shooter, but the thing that was asked was "Can you cure & stuff sausage, and then hold it for 3 weeks before smoking?"

I would not, and I read you should not, but I have to find where that was---Rytek's??

Bear


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

The quotes I posted I believe answer that question.  Do not freeze cured meats for more than a few weeks.  The OP asked about a couple of weeks and the references say that is ok.  Not sure it is the cure that causes the problem, a question posed by Bear and others, or the salt that is included in most cures as implied by Epply and Adis.

Bear,

I too would have to throw out the majority of my freezer using these guidelines.  The references cited where (similar to FDA guidelines) to assure the safest, most "near fresh" meat possible.  Just like we all cheat a bit on final cooking temps we all cheat a bit on freezer time. 

For a couple of weeks between make time and serve time go ahead and freeze the sausage.  Defrost in the fridge and smoke in a hot smoker being careful to follow the 4 hour rule.  Bring to safe internal temp and serve.   MWR&S said cure changes the flavor profile.  I believe the greatest change in flavor is due to the salt in the cure.  I don't want to argue how a bit of cure 1 changes the flavor of sausage because I can tell you that with all the other stuff I put in fresh sausage you will be pressed to taste a tsp or two of cure when making a fresh/smoked sausage.

The citations revolve around the quest for the best/safest product available.  What you want to sell to a customer.  We as individuals sometimes make decisions based on convenience and time factors.  It the OPs concern is making the sausage before hand because he doesn't have time or the facilities to make it the day before, his option of freezing for a couple of weeks is in my opinion a very valid one.  The slight taste change caused by the salt and or cure is a minor determinant in his decision making.  I suggest making the sausage without using cure and handle it as a fresh smoked sausage product using natural casings.  I am still concerned that collagen casings would not handle the freeze and subsequent defrosting as well as natural.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> The quotes I posted I believe answer that question.  Do not freeze cured meats for more than a few weeks.  The OP asked about a couple of weeks and the references say that is ok.  Not sure it is the cure that causes the problem, a question posed by Bear and others, or the salt that is included in most cures as implied by Epply and Adis.
> 
> Bear,
> 
> ...


I would not argue with you, unless I find the thing I read that said not to hold cured sausage without smoking for any length of time.

But I will definitely argue an extreme flavor change with Tender Quick added into the picture.

When I first got on this forum, and I was learning how to cure & smoke, I asked everybody on here if I could take the very bland fresh Deer sausage that my son got from the butcher shop, and dry cure it like Bacon, and make it taste like good smoked sausage. I got answers like, Why don't you take it apart & mix cure in? & why would you want to do that? And many other questions, but no REAL answers, except maybe a couple of "maybe?--Try it".

So I did try it on 2 rings. I dry cured it with TQ, and did everything like I would do Bacon the same thickness & same weight.

Then I smoked it for most of the day, bringing it to 165˚. It was soooo outstanding that I took all of the rest of the lousy, extremely bland deer sausage out of the freezer, and did it all the same way. 

So I took the worst bland Venison Sausage, and tuned it into outstanding Smoked Venison Sausage, by simply dry curing it with Tender Quick, and nothing else.

Bear

On Edit:    Here is that Venison Sausage Conversion Thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/84129/venison-sausage-converted


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

Dry curing with tenderquick is not the same as including a bit of cure 1 in fresh sausage.  I agree 100 percent dry curing a product does change the taste considerably. To the better, that's why I cure sausage and bacon for days or weeks and seldom make fresh sausage unless it's a sage type breakfast sausage like ShooterRick's recipe.


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## bbally (Nov 6, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> I can't answer it but I was wondering how others would hold the raw cured sausage for lets say 3 weeks? In the frig in a plastic bag? .




 First Why?

It is possible but you have to move to Cure #2 and you are going to need to modify the recipe by adding fermento or some other slow fermentation control method.  This would basically change the fresh cured sausage into a longer hard sausage.

But to just take a straight Cure 1 recipe or Tenderquick recipe and try this would not be advised unless you already have met the medical deductible on your health insurance policy, cause you are going to probably need medical treatment.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Dry curing with tenderquick is not the same as including a bit of cure 1 in fresh sausage.  I agree 100 percent dry curing a product does change the taste considerably. To the better, that's why I cure sausage and bacon for days or weeks and seldom make fresh sausage unless it's a sage type breakfast sausage like ShooterRick's recipe.


Thanks Al,
#1  I'm glad you agree with that part.

#2  The OP did not specify whether he used TQ or Cure #1 in his sausage.

#3 The part I highlighted in Red, in your post did not specify Cure # 1 either, in fact it said:

 *The slight taste change caused by the salt and or cure is a minor determinant in his decision making.*

I disagree with the words "taste change caused by salt and cure" and "minor determinant".

I would agree that there would be very little or no taste change at all with cure #1 by itself, but not with TQ, or with Cure #1 mixed with the things you normally mix with it, that are already in TQ.

As for the other (holding cured meat for 3 weeks, before smoking), until I find where I read this is a "NO-NO", I will defer to "bbally" and his post.

Not arguing with you Al, just clarifying my thoughts and statements,

Bear


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

I luv ya Bear,  Bear, that's my wife's nickname for me you know.

No argument at all, normally it's a misunderstanding on exactly what the situation is.    At no time was dry curing mentioned in the original post either but we both agree dry curing does change the taste profile of a product.   My stance is that a bit of Cure 1 (I have never used Tender quick) in a fresh sausage is very hard to find because the other spices cover the taste of the Nitrates.  I believe Tender quick is mostly salt so I would say that in fresh sausage the taste of the nitrates is hidden by all the salt in Tender quick.   With time, the nitrates change the texture, flavor and color of the meat. 

The original poster talked about curing and then immediately freezing.   If you are saying that the sausage will continue to cure when in the freezer then I have to agree with you 100 percent because you are basically curing the sausage for a couple of weeks and would expect to see a profile change.  

I don't know if Cures continue to work when the product is frozen, maybe that is what this thread is actually about.

Al

AKA  HugaBear


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> I luv ya Bear,  Bear, that's my wife's nickname for me you know.
> 
> No argument at all, normally it's a misunderstanding on exactly what the situation is.    At no time was dry curing mentioned in the original post either but we both agree dry curing does change the taste profile of a product.   My stance is that a bit of Cure 1 (I have never used Tender quick) in a fresh sausage is very hard to find because the other spices cover the taste of the Nitrates.  I believe Tender quick is mostly salt so I would say that in fresh sausage the taste of the nitrates is hidden by all the salt in Tender quick.   With time, the nitrates change the texture, flavor and color of the meat.
> 
> ...


LOL---Hugabear??
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Then we seem to agree with most if not all. 

I'm thinking the cure might dissipate and be rendered useless, but that's just a wild guess, until I find what I had read about not waiting too long between mixing cure into ground meat & smoking it.

Thanks Huggy Bear,

Bear


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## bbally (Nov 6, 2010)

You could also add Acsorbate to the mix.  I don't know how many are into cure accelerants but Acsorbate is your friend when you are in a hurry.

Nitrite stops reacting within the mixture at about 28 F give or take depending on salt content and a ph levels.


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

Thanks for clearing that up bbally.  Is it correct to deduce that the salt is the culprit when freezing cured meats for an extended period of time?

Al


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## bmudd14474 (Nov 6, 2010)

great discussion guys.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

bmudd14474 said:


> great discussion guys.




LOL---Huggy Bear & I and the rest of the guys know how to discuss, without arguing. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





We try to set good examples.

Bear


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

I will never live this down,

I enjoyed the discussion also. 

Al


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## Bearcarver (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> I will never live this down,
> 
> I enjoyed the discussion also.
> 
> Al


Nah--I'll stop now--I had my fun.

But I can't guarantee others won't bring it up. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





You're still one of my favorite info type guys.

Bear


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## bbally (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Thanks for clearing that up bbally.  Is it correct to deduce that the salt is the culprit when freezing cured meats for an extended period of time?
> 
> Al


Huggy, partially... it is a combination of air, salt, nitrite and the fat in most cured meats.


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## alblancher (Nov 6, 2010)

Oh man,

She has a lot of other nicknames for me that aren't nearly so lovable,  want to hear them to?


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## bbally (Nov 6, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Oh man,
> 
> She has a lot of other nicknames for me that aren't nearly so lovable,  want to hear them to?




 No sir, took mine 23 years to convince me a###ole was a term of endearment.  Once I believed it and signed on to the idea I found life eaier.


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## DanMcG (Nov 6, 2010)

bbally said:


> First Why?
> 
> It is possible but you have to move to Cure #2 and you are going to need to modify the recipe by adding fermento or some other slow fermentation control method.  This would basically change the fresh cured sausage into a longer hard sausage.
> 
> But to just take a straight Cure 1 recipe or Tenderquick recipe and try this would not be advised unless you already have met the medical deductible on your health insurance policy, cause you are going to probably need medical treatment.


Thanks Bob, this was my point..... If I mixed and stuffed some cured sausage and couldn't smoke/cook  them in a few days, then I'd freeze them till I could


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## Bearcarver (Nov 7, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Oh man,
> 
> She has a lot of other nicknames for me that aren't nearly so lovable,  want to hear them to?


No thanks, I'm fine.

I was going to give you a funny answer, but it wouldn't top bbally's reply, so I'll just say, "I'm fine with that one".

Bear


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