# Ribs Too Tough?  Help Needed!



## mgmsmoker (Jan 21, 2014)

My good friend and fellow smoker had baby backs dialed in when he lived in California.  5 hours at 225 and wrapping in foil the last two hours.  Well I tried that and they came out too tough.  My wife and I are having a party at our house this Saturday, and I want to give ribs another try(also cooking butt, but I dialed that in).  I am thinking it could be altitude that is affecting my ribs?  I have done some research on the forum, and it seems pretty consistent, 2-2-1 for baby backs.  I was also told that it might be better to cook at 250 for 3 hours.  Which of these cooking times/temps should I give a go considering my location and weather outside?  Also, I smoked 2 weeks ago, and have leftover, soaked wood chips.  I have stored them in a ziplock over this time, will they be alright to use again this weekend?  Also, will I need to re-soak them? Thanks for the help!


----------



## crankybuzzard (Jan 21, 2014)

Describe how you made the 2-2-1 ribs from start to finish please?

How did you prep, how did you mop, how did you foil (did you spritz when you foiled), and finally, how did you finish the ribs for the last hour?

That should help us get started on getting you some good tips.

Charlie


----------



## daveomak (Jan 21, 2014)

And are your therms reading correctly....  Check them in boiling water.....


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for the quick reply.  Initially I applied my "special" rub the night before.  Once my electric smoker reached 225, I put the ribs in for 2 hours, then wrapped them in foil for 2 more hours at 225.  I have read that it needs to be wrapped very tightly, and looking back, I just wrapped it loosely.  For the last hour I unwrapped and mopped my BBQ sauce periodically with a sauce brush.  After researching multiple posts, I have read that the ribs need to be placed on a certain side at certain times, is this true?  Also, I used hickory chips, soaked, and I did not spritz at all.  Where did I go wrong.  Thanks for the help!


----------



## crankybuzzard (Jan 21, 2014)

OK, here is how I do it, but first, let me agree with Dave; check the thermos!

I slather my ribs (BBs and Spares) with yellow mustard, rub with my rub of choice, place bone side down into a CONFIRMED 225-250 degree pit, allow to smoke/cook for an hour, spritz with my spritz juice top and bottom (ACV, worchestershire sauce, whiskey, EVOO, and water), allow to go for another hour.

After 2 hours for BBs, I place the ribs bone side down on the foil, spritz, and wrap them up loosely....  Allow to go for 1.5 hours, open up and make sure I'm not getting too tender, and then either pull from the foil, or wrap back up for a bit.

For the last hour, I allow the ribs to sit in the pit bone side down (membrane area facing the grate) and roll along at 225-250....  No sauce is ever added to my ribs unless a guest specifically asks for it.

IF sauce is requested, I add it the last 15 minutes of cook time so as not to scorch....

I'd double check the therms, and if they check out, try the above and see what happens...  I have a couple of ribbons and a keg from winning comps with that exact procedure...  But, I never sauce...  I let the smoke and meat speak for itself.

Charlie


----------



## flash (Jan 21, 2014)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> (membrane area facing the grate) and roll along at 225-250.


 Did you remove the membrane?

And always add some liquid (I use apple cider vinegar/apple juice) to the ribs when you foil.

 I'd try again. Possible you just got some tough meat.


----------



## daveomak (Jan 21, 2014)

A trick when removing the membrane.....   run the membrane under hot tap water for a minute or two...  that softens the "glue" holding the membrane to the ribs...  grab with paper towel and the membrane pulls right off...   easy-peasy......    

Dav


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 21, 2014)

CrankyBuzzard - what is ACV that you use in your spritzer.  Also, how much of each item do you add?

Flash - When you say add apple cider or apple juice, is that just added when wrapping in the foil?  Also, what type of wood chips do you use?


----------



## geerock (Jan 21, 2014)

MGM
I'm getting the  idea you wrapped with no liquid.  You need to go with something in the foil.  A little honey, along with a sprinkle of brown sugar, plus some squeeze margerine on the meat.....and in the foil 2 or 3 Tbs of apple juice, beer, cola, whatever.
And....on an electric, preheat 25 to 30 degrees over your cook temp cause when you add the meat the temp will drop a lot and may take quite some time to get back to where you want.  You may want to not leave your rub on overnight.  In some cases some of the ingredients in the rub can pull moisture out of the meat.
And also, like others said, verify your temps and watch the meat coming out of the foil.  You may not need 5 hours for bb's.  You'll get there... just need to get it down.

PS. what type of smoker r u using?


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 21, 2014)

geerock - You are correct, I simply just wrapped and placed back in the smoker.  That could be what caused the issue last time.  The smoker I use is a 40in Masterbuilt. In my previous smokes, only 2 times, it seemed to heat well and maintain temp even when I opened the door.  Also, what is the best indicator of when the ribs are done?  Do I need to check IT of the meat, check by touch, or another way. Thanks for your help.


----------



## geerock (Jan 21, 2014)

MGM
The mes cookers are notorious for having controllers that are as much as 30 to 35 degrees off.  I had one that I had to set at 210 to cook at 240 and a neighbor was just the opposite.  He couldnt cook higher than 245 because at the max set temp of 275 all he could get was 245.  Verify your temps with a maverick et732.  Its a great tool to have....especially for the masterbuilt.


----------



## flash (Jan 22, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> CrankyBuzzard - what is ACV that you use in your spritzer.  Also, how much of each item do you add?
> 
> Flash - When you say add apple cider or apple juice, is that just added when wrapping in the foil?  Also, what type of wood chips do you use?


 I usually spritz with a 50/50 mix of Apple Cider or Juice and Apple Cider Vinegar, but when I go to wrap I give them a good dousing.  No chips here, only chunks. Usually Pecan and Cherry or sometimes Oak and Cherry for my ribs.













Ribsfallapart0077.jpg



__ flash
__ Aug 23, 2013


----------



## flash (Jan 22, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> geerock - You are correct, I simply just wrapped and placed back in the smoker.  That could be what caused the issue last time.  The smoker I use is a 40in Masterbuilt. In my previous smokes, only 2 times, it seemed to heat well and maintain temp even when I opened the door.  Also, what is the best indicator of when the ribs are done?  Do I need to check IT of the meat, check by touch, or another way. Thanks for your help.


That is a bit tough to answer because I don't know how you like your ribs. 3-2-1 is considered "overdone" by Pitmasters, but my wife loves to see that bone in the ribs just slide out. You basically want to see pull back of the meat on the bone in the neighborhood of 1/4 to 1/2 half inch. If you find the 3-2-1 ribs overdone and want more bite, then you want to reduce the 2nd stage some. "Less time in the foil". When I do that, I add the additional time to the first stage. More time in the smoke.


----------



## crankybuzzard (Jan 22, 2014)

I agree with Flash...

Depends on the preference of you and your target group.  I hardly ever do a true 3-2-1 since the ribs end up too tender for my liking.  I'm more of a 3-1.5-1 cooker.

Charlie


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 23, 2014)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> OK, here is how I do it, but first, let me agree with Dave; check the thermos!
> 
> I slather my ribs (BBs and Spares) with yellow mustard, rub with my rub of choice, place bone side down into a CONFIRMED 225-250 degree pit, allow to smoke/cook for an hour, spritz with my spritz juice top and bottom (ACV, worchestershire sauce, whiskey, EVOO, and water), allow to go for another hour.
> 
> ...


CrankyBuzzard

Are you smoking the entire time?  Or do you smoke just the first hour or two?


----------



## crankybuzzard (Jan 23, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> CrankyBuzzard
> 
> Are you smoking the entire time?  Or do you smoke just the first hour or two?


It depends on the pit I'm using...  If I'm on the big horizontal (The Buzzard Burner) then yes I'm getting smoke the full time since it's a stick burner.  If' I'm on the vertical (The Bubba Burner) not so much.  The vertical is fed with lump charcoal and I add wood chunks to the maze I have in the fire box so the burning charcoal hits a chunk at regular intervals to provide smoke.  I only place chunks around the maze to the 3/4 point and get about 4 hours out of a full maze.

Now, if I use my electric smokehouse (no name since the wife said I was getting to weird naming smokers) I only smoke for as long as my AMPS will go for, so yep, I smoke the entire time.  BUT, let me add this; I use light flavored pellets (no mesquite or hickory).  I also have a good airflow into my "smoke chamber" where the AMPS sits so I get a very thin blue smoke.

Make sense?

Charlie


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 23, 2014)

Yes, thanks for the help.  I am using cherry and hickory chips in my electric smoker, so I will probably just smoke the whole time.  Is it not a waste of chips to smoke while the ribs are in the foil?


----------



## crankybuzzard (Jan 23, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> Yes, thanks for the help.  I am using cherry and hickory chips in my electric smoker, so I will probably just smoke the whole time.  Is it not a waste of chips to smoke while the ribs are in the foil?


Yeah, one could call it a waste to burn chips, pellets, dust, or chunks while the ribs are in foil, but I have a owrk around for that....  I ALWAYS have something for next weeks lunch on the smoker when cooking ribs, brisket, etc...  Now, that's my excuse for being lazy. 

In reality, while the ribs are in foil and the "wood" products are making smoke, use it to your advantage...  Smoke some eggs, nuts, veggies, etc...

If all else fails, PM me when you get ready to cook next time and I'll pass along my phone number....  Then we can shine or fail together!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Charlie


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 23, 2014)

Haha sounds good.  Thanks for the help.


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 24, 2014)

I have one more question.  How much does elevation play when smoking meat?  I spoke with my friend who is a fellow smoker and he said that 5 hours it too long at this elevation(Atlanta, Ga).  He was thinking it would be better to smoke for about 3 hours at 250 or so.  Does this make sense?  I was planning on the 2-2-1 method and I just want to make sure I do this right.  Thanks.


----------



## noboundaries (Jan 24, 2014)

Been thinking about this one a lot.  Read all the responses.  Lets assume the membrane was removed.  With ribs you basically get tough, tender, fall-off-the-bone tender, or dry.  "Tough" ribs to me mean they may be cooked but have not been cooked long enough at the desired temperature to get tender.  On the other end of the spectrum is dry.  If they were dry they typically still fall off the bone, just WAY overcooked.  Trust me, over the decades I've ended up with them all before I found what works for me every time.

I don't wrap my ribs any longer in my smoker, cooking ribs in the 225-235 range for roughly 5.5 to 6.5 hours for spares, at least 4 hours for BBs, using the 1/4" to 1/2" draw up on the bone as a visual check for doneness.  I've found BBs to be more temperamental and only smoke them when requested.  For the finished product I personally like 1/4" draw with a little tug on the bite.  My wife and kids like a 1/2" to 3/4" draw and fall off the bone.  I've had BBs take as long as spares to finish, but they are generally done in 2/3 to 3/4 the amount of time.  I only open my smoker 2-3 times during the entire smoke to spritz, then one final time to sauce.  I keep as much heat in the smoker as I can even when spritzing.  If you are opening more than that, I suspect your temp recovery time is impacting your final result. 

Decatur, GA is only at 1043 feet elevation.  That's only about a 2.5F difference in boiling point of water (water boils at a lower temp the higher you go above sea level).  Use 230 for a bit of a margin, 235F if you are higher up in the hills.


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks for the great response noboundaries.  I was actually thinking about setting the temp to 230-235 when I smoke tomorrow. Initially I did remove the membrane, and I stand corrected, the ribs were more dry, not tough. My question to you is, why would you not foil?  What difference does this make in the outcome of the meat?


----------



## noboundaries (Jan 24, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> Thanks for the great response noboundaries.  I was actually thinking about setting the temp to 230-235 when I smoke tomorrow. Initially I did remove the membrane, and I stand corrected, the ribs were more dry, not tough. My question to you is, why would you not foil?  What difference does this make in the outcome of the meat?


Ahhh.  Like I said, BB's can be more temperamental because they are leaner than spare ribs.  If you are going to have a dry rib it is most likely going to be the BBs and it is one of the reasons I prefer spare ribs. When cooked correctly, the fat in the spares will render out and the connective tissue will melt keeping the rib juicy.

Why do I not foil?  Control (mostly), it is easier not wrapping, and I like the taste and bark better unwrapped.  I count on 3.5 to 4.5 hours with BBs and 5.5 to 6.5 with SLC spareribs.  With BB's I use my eye and a quick temp check to measure doneness (165 min - 180 max).  My family all prefers sauced "wet" ribs.

First, always try and get rib racks about the same size.  I usually buy the largest in the case as long as they are all close to the same weight.  I never mix spares and BBs, doing one or the other but usually St Louis Cut spares 95% of the time.

When cooking BBs I spritz at 90 minutes and again at 3 hrs.  When I peek at 3 hours I get an idea how they are cooking.  I have sauced many a BB at three hours but they were usually the smaller racks.  If they need more time I get back to what I was doing for another 30-45 minutes.  I take another quick peek, spritz, and often sauce at this point depending on the internal temp and bone draw.  If they are good, I sauce and let them carmelize and cook for another 15-20 minutes usually, keeping the chamber temp 200 to 225 or so the sugars don't burn.

Now that is WAY more checking work in a smaller amount of time than the SLC spares.  I don't even look at them until 3 hours.  I spritz and leave them alone for another 90 minutes.  Spritz, and get an idea how they are faring.  Leave them alone for another hour or so, then check the bone draw.  I let them cook a little longer or sauce and let them carmelize for 30-45 minutes at 200 to 225.  I have never checked the internal temp of my spares and can tell just by the bone draw if they are like I want them.

I cook them bone down if laying flat on a grate.  If using a rib rack I put the meatiest part of the rib on top.


----------



## cliffcarter (Jan 25, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> ...  *Also, what is the best indicator of when the ribs are done?  Do I need to check IT of the meat, check by touch, or another way. Thanks for your help.*


The most reliable indicator of doneness for pork ribs, be they loin backs or spares is the "Bend Test"













bendtest.jpg



__ cliffcarter
__ Aug 24, 2012






Pick the rack up from one end with tongs, the tongs should extend to the fifth or sixth rib, when they rack bends at a 45° angle(or more) they are done.

Checking the internal temp on ribs will not work because of the proximity of the bones make it difficult to get an accurate reading.

I find that pullback is not always a reliable indicator of doneness in ribs, I sometimes get good pullback a couple of hours into the cook and they are certainly not done, other times I get no pullback for the entire cook.


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks for the help guys, this has been very beneficial.  One last question...maybe.  I am doing three racks for my first go at this so I can try different techniques.  I am going to apply the same rub (billbos rub) because I really enjoy it.  I will spritz all of them the same as well.  The only difference is...

1 - Wrap in foil with 1/4 cup of apple juice.

2 - Wrap in foil with butter and honey

3 - Not going to wrap at all

Not too big of a difference, but I do want to see how much of a difference foiling makes.  So my question is, when I am doing the rack with honey and butter, I plan on putting the butter and honey on the foil first, but do I put it on top of the rack as well?  Also, bone side down in the foil right?  Thanks.


----------



## geerock (Jan 25, 2014)

That's the Johnny Trigg method ( partially, anyway).  ON THE RIB. ...squeeze margarine, honey, (or blue agave) some brown sugar, and Tiger Sauce.  Then a few Tbs of whatever juice...apple, grape, ........
For new smokers the I believe the wrap method is easier for you.  
An experienced guy like Noboundaries does them like I do a lot.  But you have to have the experience to get a feel and know what you're looking for.  I suggest the wrap method until you get a few racks under your belt.  Just my opinion.


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks geerock, I have actually been told that by a couple of people.  Well give me some suggestions on my wrapping additives.  I was thinking about...

1 - 1/4 cup apple juice

2 - squeeze butter, honey, apple juice, and brown sugar

3 - just douse with my spritz juice

Any additions?  Any other ideas?


----------



## flash (Jan 25, 2014)

cliffcarter said:


> The most reliable indicator of doneness for pork ribs, be they loin backs or spares is the "Bend Test"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a great method for doneness but does not work for those that have to cut the racks in two to fit in verticals. I guess my only other choice to go by pull back?


----------



## geerock (Jan 25, 2014)

just something to balance out the sweetness.  something with some spice or tanginess or heat.  maybe a touch of cayenne or chili powder.

BUT stop thinking and start smokin'!!!


----------



## mgmsmoker (Jan 25, 2014)

I have a vertical smoker and only 2 racks will fit on a shelf.  Is it alright to put a rack on a shelf above them?  Will the drippings affect the outcome of the ribs?


----------



## rajones19 (Jan 26, 2014)

MGMsmoker - another great possibility as far as liquid in the foil is Chef JimmyJ's Foiling Juice (http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/110881/foiling-juice-chef-jimmyj), which I have used with great success. That said, over time I have mostly given up on the foiling. I'm using a Smokin-It #2 electric smoker, and have found that if I just check for done-ness (instead of going strictly by time), I am turning out great ribs. SLCs almost always take 6 or 6.5 hours, so I have learned to be patient, leave the smoker alone. (I do tend to pace like an expectant father while they are in there LOL). I start checking the ribs for done-ness about 5 or 5.5 hours or so into the smoke. This has been a huge exercise in self-discipline, but it has been worth it. I also cut my racks in half to fit them in the smoker, so can't do the bend test as shown in the photograph above - but you can accomplish pretty much the same thing by grabbing the half rack with 2 pairs of tongs, see how easily it bends. If the meat starts to separate when it bends, they're done. I no longer foil, or spritz - I don't even open the door, unless to add another little chunk of wood. They have been fantastic lately (and a lot less work, too).


----------



## flash (Jan 26, 2014)

MGMsmoker said:


> I have a vertical smoker and only 2 racks will fit on a shelf.  Is it alright to put a rack on a shelf above them?  Will the drippings affect the outcome of the ribs?


Vertical here also. Have to cut them in two but have had 4 racks with ribs on each. No problem.


----------

