# Brined Vs. Un-Brined Chickens: A Taste Off!



## rivet (Jun 7, 2009)

Okay folks, decided to take the plunge and for once and for all put the brining issue to a rest~ in my mind at least.

For the record, I have never brined anything before, and never thought to or wanted to, until I became a member of the SMF and met such a fine and large group of "briners", who swear by it. 

So, in good spirit and open mind, curious to see what all the fuss is about, I decided to conduct a taste-off and compare two identical chickens- one brined, the other not-brined. 

Four people, two men and two women are the evaluators, myself and my wife being half the group. None of us in the panel have ever knowingly eaten brined chicken, nor do we brine them. All of us curious to see if there is a difference.

To start, two identical MBA Brand "Air Chilled Smart Chicken". Why? Because they are air-chilled after slaughter instead of being chilled in a chlorinated tank of water and thus, do not pick up the 6% or so, of added water weight. The "Smart Chicken" will not be pre-loaded with moisture, and thus will pick up as much brine as possible, making the test as even as it can be.



Thanks to SUMOSMOKE, she passed on to me an excellent standardized brine she uses herself, passed down from TRAVCOMAN45. I used this to brine one chicken for 24 hours-


The next day, I rinsed both well, and placed a bamboo chopstick into the cavity of the brined bird to keep them identified-


Both birds smoked "nekkid". Nothing else added, no salt, pepper etcetera. Nothing to interfere with the taste-which is what we are evaluating. Into the SnP at 325F burning applewood-


At about halftime (1 and 1/2 hrs) I rotated them 180 degrees-


Roughly 3 hours later, they are done. Onto the cutting board for the centerfold pic!-


Split each in half to evaluate doneness, interior looks and overall appearance. No difference between the two visible. The brined one is closest to camera-


Each half plated to be taste-tested. At this point it is the first time my wife saw the birds; she did not know which one was brined.-


Sliced them up to evaluate meat and appearance-


They both tasted awesome! here's the wreckage after the review and scorecards filled out-


So which one won? Which one was better? 

Don't know yet. Still have two "disinterested, third-party" taste testers from work who have willingly volunteered themselves to taste my cookin' !

We have "AL", a Process Engineer, and "KELLIE" the Continuous Improvement Manager, selflessly going to taste test the chicken tomorrow for lunch at work.

Stay tuned for the results! Stay tuned for the final tally! Is brining better? Does brining REALLY make a difference? 

Tomorrow I will post the final results!


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## tasunkawitko (Jun 7, 2009)

looks like a good, blind taste test! looking forward to results!


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## fire it up (Jun 7, 2009)

Was a really good idea to find out how much you may or may not have liked it.
Did some chicken yesterday, in marinade for 4 hours and didn't brine and I wish I had, personal preference though. Any chance of posting or linking the brine recipe, or is it more secret...
Always love trying out new brines.


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## slanted88 (Jun 7, 2009)

I use Tip's Slaughterhouse recipe. Make sure you use a non-reactive container.


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## davenh (Jun 7, 2009)

It will be interesting to see which they all went for. I do a couple yardbirds almost every weekend and don't brine. For juiciness, whole chickens don't need it if you pull at 165. 

On the other hand, I would agree you can add more flavor with a brine. Salt is a very tasty seasoning and brining puts plenty of that in the bird, to the tune of 500~600 mg sodium per 4 oz serving. If you eat like I do, 4 oz isn't going to cut it. So multiply that number by 3 at least, my high blood pressure make that a no no. Another thing to concider in the brine vs no brine debate.


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## rivet (Jun 7, 2009)

FiU, be glad to share, but Sumosmoke passed it on to me for the taste-test. Not sure if it public or not, so I'd say PM her or Travcoman45 and ask them. 

Don't mean to be stingy, but I'd rather be careful with stuff that doesn't belong to me. 

I'm sure they'll share it!


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## travcoman45 (Jun 7, 2009)

Here ya go, sure ain't no secret, just tastey!

*Slaughterhouse Poultry Brine ** By Tip Piper of Hillbilly Vittles*
*1 ½ Gal Water*
*½ C Salt - Kosher*
*½ C Dark Brown Sugar*
*2 tsp Garlic Powder*
*2 tsp Onion Powder*
*2 tsp Cajun Spice (Louisiana Cajun Seasoning)*
*2 tsp Celery Seed*

*Slaughterhouse Poultry Injection*
*½ Pkg Good Seasons Italian Dressing*
*2 tsp Garlic Powder*
*2 tsp Celery Seed*
*2 TBS melted Butter (non salted)*
*2 C Apple Cider*

*Slaughterhouse Spritz (Good fer everthin!)*
*8 oz Apple Cider*
*6 oz Water*
*4 oz Whiskey*
*2 oz Cider Vinegar*


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## countrysmoked (Jun 8, 2009)

Great test, looking forward for the results.  I may evan have to try a bird without brine if that one wins.  Great Qview. Thanks

Gary


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## cajunsmoke13 (Jun 8, 2009)

Great test Rivet.  Been wondering myself.  By the way, the birds look awesome.  Nice job


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## cheech (Jun 8, 2009)

I wish I had read this tomorrow so that I would not have to wait for the results, however I think I know the answer or at least what I think it would be.


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## isutroutbum (Jun 8, 2009)

Great blind taste test Rivet. This is a cool idea! Plus, the birds look great. Cannot wait for the results.

Also, travcoman45 - thanks for posting all those recipes!! I'm definately printing this out!

Best,
Trout


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## sumosmoke (Jun 8, 2009)

Excellent experiment! I think it was best you used the chickens that didn't have the added liquid as you probably did get the best result in the brining procedure. 

Your friends at work will surely enjoy the grub they're about to eat. Don't be surprised if their decision is undecided and "may need some more" to make an honest decision.


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## wutang (Jun 8, 2009)

Looks great Rivet. It won't let me give you points but this experiment is definately worth it. Good job coming in with an open mind and nice work on the scientific side of the experiment.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jun 8, 2009)

Hey Rivet, you think like I do...sounds and looks like you're right on track for an un-biased taste trial. Interesting how you're getting outside (3rd party) opinions as well.

I've been thinking about doing some brining for several months, and never have yet, so I'll be anxiously awaiting the results.

Thanks for sharing this!

Eric


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## flash (Jun 8, 2009)

Just to play Devil's Advocate, being I never brine Poultry, one bird gets brined in spices and the other non brined bird gets nothing. And how is this a fair taste comparison


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## coyote-1 (Jun 8, 2009)

Yep, I was wondering the same thing. Though it could happen that the smoke simply overpowers everything else.
But I'd think moisture retention would be part of the reason for brining. My wife brined the three chickens I did Saturday, and they were definitely moister (especially the skin) than the birds I did a few weeks ago.


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## flash (Jun 8, 2009)

I guess we must have real moist chickens here as my wife wants her chicken DONE!!!  No 165º, no 170º. I have to get towards 180º. I usually go to 165º, then onto the gasser to finish them up.



Still looks plenty juicy to me.


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## coyote-1 (Jun 8, 2009)

Looks awesome!

The ones I did a few weeks ago were an experiment. Often you hear "don't life the cover, you don't need to mop" so I tried that. The chicken was flavorful and the meat was pretty moist but the skin was leathery-tough.

So this time, I put water and beer in the drip pans and mopped the chickens every half-hour or so. I'll never forego mopping again!


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## flash (Jun 8, 2009)

Unless you can smoke towards the 325º range, your skin will be leather tough. That's why the transfer to a hot grill for a bit.



Just out of the smoker.



And after the grill.  I just use a rub, then spritz with a 50/50 mix of canola oil and lemon.


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## herkysprings (Jun 8, 2009)

Smoke skinless!

Get Chicken Bark!


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## flash (Jun 8, 2009)

Yeah, shouldn't eat the skin anyway......but I always gotta steal a taste


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## rivet (Jun 8, 2009)

Well actually, Flash, this is exactly the fairest way, since I am evaluating the effect of the brining upon the chicken and nothing else. The brine either works or it doesn't.

Good question you put and one folks may be asking.


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## rivet (Jun 8, 2009)

Allrighty folks, the results are in!

I will say that they are surprising, especially to me, and to some participants after being told the results of the test.

However, I stand by my test and the results. Without further ado, let's get on with it!

Al (the Engineer) and Kellie (the CI Manager) were presented with two identical "ziploc" brand food storage containers containing half a chicken each. Last night, when I put up the halves, I added 1/8 cup apple juice to each container, since I would be reheating them in a microwave, and didn't want dried out bird.

Neither was told which was brined, and both Al and Kellie tasted samples from each container. 

Al's first statement was "this one tastes better" (and identified the brined one).

Kellies first statement was "this one is softer" (and identified the brined one)

After discussing and tasting further, both agreed one was softer and had a lightly different taste- one of spice- which they liked.

They both picked the brined one.

During this event, the guys I normally eat lunch with in the cafeteria had been eyeing this strange event and gathered. Four more particiapted in the experiment!

All four identified one as tasting different, from the other, and described it as "tastier" or "with more flavor" than the other. All four tasters immediately pointed out one was "softer" than the other. All four identified this one as the brined one.

My wife thought one of the samples tasted "chicken-nier" and that was the brined one. I could not tell one bit of difference in the taste. I immediately noticed the brined one was softer, and almost "mushy" to me. I am the only tester who described the brined chicken as mushy.

So. What to make of this?

I cannot go against 7 testers....apparently brining does impart a flavor to the birds that people like. I, for the life of me could not detect it. Are my tastebuds wearing out? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Seven out of eight testers quickly identified the brined chicken as being "softer" or "more tender" than the other. My wife noted no difference.

The conclusion is that yes, brining adds flavor and makes the birds more tender. So to all you briners out there, I concede that you all are correct! Rock on folks!

There was considerable effort in re-arranging the fridge to accomodate the large pot with brine and bird overnight, so that is a negative for the whole process. 

Overall, when the process was described it was evenly split as to whether it was worth it or not. The flavor was improved, but not worth the hassle to half the group.

Hope you enjoyed the test as much as I did! 

I'd like to thank SUMOSMOKE for enthusiasm for the test and providing TRAVCOMAN45's brine recipe to me. Also thanks to TASUNKAWITKO for the initial encouragement to actually do it.

Of course, thanks to you all for reading the thread and replying. You all are what makes the Smoking Meat Forums the best!


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## bigsteve (Jun 8, 2009)

Next you have to try comparing a brined bird to a beer butt bird.

I brine chicken pieces, but have never done a whole bird.  I think my beer butt chicken tastes better then the brined pieces.  But then I never had them side by side either..

Great thread, btw.


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## cajunsmoke13 (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks Rivet.  Guess I need to try this brining thing on some yardbirds...


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## alx (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks Rivet,very interesting.I dont brine roasters-famoly doesnt like texture-but have done pieces.

I will say for a fact that brining effects skin, which is important in comps etc, but we marinate-others swear by brining.Thanks.


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## sumosmoke (Jun 8, 2009)

Great to see the final results, Riv. Really nice experiment!


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## tasunkawitko (Jun 9, 2009)

very interesting results, rivet ~ my wife has always complained of our chicken being "mushy" when i smoke them (they've all been brined up till yesterday). in fact, it was the major reason why she didn't want the bird on the smoker yesterday. over time, i'd been thinking that maybe the brining was resulting the the softer, almost mushy texture. it looks like this may have been confirmed.

for the record, we did a chicken on the SnP yesterday nekkid as can be, including no smoke. the charcoal briquettes (sam's choice from wal-mart) appeared to have little chunks of wood in them, and this did apply justa little smoke aroma and just a bare whiff of taste. the chicken itself was diced up and went into a casserole. there were absolutely no complaints about over-smoked flavor and none about mushiness either, so between your results and my own findings, i ahve to conclude that brining does indeed result in a softer textrure that can be intepreted by some as mushy. 

excellent test! interesting results!


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## flash (Jun 9, 2009)

And a well spiced Rotisserie bird will top them both. IMHO
Sorry Rivet, I still think you should have atleast spiced the non brined bird with whatever spices were in the brine to make it "more equal". Again JMHO.
I do tend to agree though, brinning takes up too much room, atleast in my case it does.


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## mikey (Jun 9, 2009)

Interesting thread, Rivet. I've never brined a chicken, only 2 turkeys and they came fairly good. One thing to consider when having folks do a taste test is whether the testers are cigarette smokers or non-smokers. I know this has an affect on tastebuds. As a suggestion so you don't have to rearrange everything in the fridge, is I use a 5 gal bucket, ie: place my turkey in the brine leaving a bit of room for about 7-10 lbs of ice and put the lid on it. I just leave it in the kitchen. No rearranging needed.


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## coyote-1 (Jun 9, 2009)

It is tips like this that make this place worthwhile.Next time the fridge is out of room and I need to brine or something, the bucket it is!

Thank you kindly.


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## workoutchamp (Jun 9, 2009)

Rivet - fab - rep points to you.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I brine my turkeys - Alton Brown does a great job explaining the science behind brining - check it out on Hulu or watch the show live.  I do turkeys, never chicken - but I will start thanks to you.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Going naked?  I would also say that I feed tons of people at a time at festivals we host...  I used to pull the skin back on the L/T quarters, rub with yellow glue and dry rub, then fold the skin back - sheesh, I am tired already.

I forgot the mustard one fest and just sprinkled with Adobo with pepper (in the adobo) - and the people said, what did you do?  It is better than the last time - never thought it was possible, but it is.  so now we just shake Adobo on our "nekked" chicken and roll.

It is available in the Mexican section of any grocery store.  We love it and it is a contrast between that and the ribs/etc.

again, thank you


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## farnsworth (Jun 9, 2009)

Much appreciated for your own experimentation and for all the lively discussion it brought out . Points!


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## nchapelheel (Jun 9, 2009)

Thanks for the blind taste test. I never thought to do that.
I have been brining turkeys for years overnight in a 10 gallon cooler. It takes 3 turkeys for Thanksgiving!!!!
(the entire family comes for that day)
It is rare that any turkey is left over. The brine I use changes every year. Last year, I put an entire can of 'old bay' in the brine along with a quart of chicken stock.
Add some ice, put it on the screen porch overnight, start the fire at 9 Am, eat by 2 PM.
nChapelHeel


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## bassman (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't really care for "mushy" texture.  I will continue to forego the brining process as I don't think it's needed (for me).  Thanks for the test.


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## dasmoker (Jun 10, 2009)

Yep. I brine my Turkey at Thanksgiving.  I bought a round kitchen trashcan, that I only use for brining. I line it with a trashbag.  I put the brine in, and then the bird, then pack ziplock freezer bags with ice, and fill the top of the can with as many ice bags as I can fit in there.  Does a nice job for overnight brining.


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## isutroutbum (Jun 10, 2009)

Way to brine!!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Great experiment! Thanks for all the work it had to have taken.







Best,
Trout


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## grothe (Jun 10, 2009)

Great job on the brine test...thanks for the results...


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## bigsteve (Jun 10, 2009)

Are trashbags food safe?


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## waysideranch (Jun 10, 2009)

I use the turkey frying pot that came with my deep fryer.  It works great and no liner bags needed.  Nice job Rivet.


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## scubadoo97 (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks for the test and detailed results.  I think this was as fair a test as you could do.  

It's a no brainer that the brined bird will have more flavor, but is it the flavor you want.  Certainly this is personal and also dependent on the brine.  I continue to sit on the fence and brine sometimes and other times not.  

Good job!


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## coyote-1 (Jun 10, 2009)

The fence is the place to be as a cook/chef IMO. I'd NEVER want to have the one way I always do it; I think that would be a terrible thing given the incredible variety of choices available to us.

The only time such a method pays off is if you're trying to develop a commercial brand with a strong identity for sale & profit.


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## mgwerks (Jun 10, 2009)

I would suggest that perhaps the meat was "mushy" because it was brined too long.  If you cut the time down to 6 or 8 hours, you may reduce this with no loss of juiciness.

Mark


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## figjam (Jun 10, 2009)

I use a cooler with ice.  Keeps very nice through the night.



I noticed in the OP that you are using a metal bowl.  I have read in places that you should not use metal when brining.  Not sure if this is true or not, and if so I am not sure why.

I have always used a cooler when I brined.


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## mco (Jun 10, 2009)

My vote would go to the brined chicken, I cooked a 4lb chicken last night and did not brine. Same smoke and temp and rub, as the brined chicks I've done in the past.I didn't tell my wife that I did any thing different, First thing she says is this didn't come out as good as the last one. The receipt that I use I got from another site several months ago, and I use it in place of beer can chicken. I butter fly then brine for 4 to 6 hours.

brine
4 cups hot water 
¾ cup kosher salt 
¾ cup dark brown sugar, packed 
1 tablespoon coursely ground black pepper 
6 bay leaves, crumbled 
2 X 12 oz. bottles/cans cold lager beer 
1 tray of ice cubes 
2 cups cold water 
*Rub* 
2 teaspoons sweet paprika 
½ teaspoon ground cumin 
½ teaspoon kosher salt 
½ teaspoon dark brown sugar, packed 
¼ teaspoon celery salt 
¼ teaspoon chili powder 
¼ teaspoon ground black pepper 
pinch of dried oregano


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## dasmoker (Jun 10, 2009)

Well, now you have me thinking.  BUT, I have done it for years, and know many others who do this as well. so I am assuming so.  But like everything else in this world, I am sure there are those who will tell me its not.  But we are all still alive and healthy so I will take that as a sign that yes, they are safe to use for brining.


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## bigsteve (Jun 10, 2009)

I just looked at the boxes I have here. The smaller white bags for in the house say do not use for food storage. But it doesn't say why.  The larger black bags, for large trash cans don't say anything.

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse here but, I've know folks who smoked tobacco their whole lives and showed no ill effects. But I won't start smoking because of that either..........


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## coyote-1 (Jun 10, 2009)

I use a a porcelain-coated lobster pot. Works well, but takes lotsa room in the fridge.


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## kingudaroad (Jun 10, 2009)

Good work, however I agree that a completely unseasoned chicken will never beat a seasoned chicken in a taste test. I think a better comparison would have been a brined bird vs an injected bird. A good buttery injection is awful hard to beat. Looks like Tip has a good injection recipe there.


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## gnubee (Jun 10, 2009)

I have to go along with Flash and say that nothing beats a rotisserie bird. I have one of those Ron Popiel Showtime rotisseries that really is set it and forget it. I also have a Smoke daddy that I can use to direct smoke into the smoke daddy.  The chicken turns out moist and very flavourful with a really nice crispy skin. 

In my opinion nothing else brined or unbrined comes close.... but now your test has got me thinking ( a dangerous thing ) ..... brine a chicken then do it in the Showtime ......hmmmmm.....wonder how that would turn out. 

Thanks Rivet for all your fine work on this. Points!


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## dasmoker (Jun 11, 2009)

I hear ya. But I did not use a trash bag because someone told me they did it for years. It is I that have used it for years with no ill effects. So while i expect no one to use a trash bag because I have said I have used it for years, I am just saying that I have no ill effects from actual usage of it, so I am basing my opinion on actual experience.

I have smoked tobacco most of my life, I wish I could say i have no ill effects from it.  lol.


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## countrysmoked (Jun 16, 2009)

I use a clean cooler with 2 liter bottles filled with water and frozen to keep the birds held under and cold,  works well when hams or bacon are brined for a long time, just change the bottles out every day, it won't water down the brine that way.


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## rons (Jun 20, 2009)

man cool test!! Last time I did some quarters I forgot to brine, I couldn't tell the difference, but I guess side by side there really is a difference. I just hate going through the mess of brining  but will if we have company over. Nice job on that!


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## bonedadddy (Jun 20, 2009)

I am smoking a whole mess of chicken breasts, legs and wings today...brined it all...

The perk I have found with is the poultry will soak up more water due to the high salt content...and be juicier at the end of the smoke.


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## davenh (Jun 20, 2009)

I wouldn't be using a regular trash bag, some manufacturers even use deodorizers, UV stabilizers or insecticides in their resins. Nothing we want in our food.   

Here's what Glad Bag people say, from their site under FAQ.

_Can I store food for a party in GLAD Trash Bags?_


No. GLAD Trash Bags are not recommended for food storage. However, GLAD Food Bags and GladWare[emoji]174[/emoji] Containers are ideal for food storage and come in various sizes to suit your needs.

Our other trash and garbage products are made from plastic resins that are not recommended for food storage use. Of course, the resin used for GLAD Food Storage Bags has been approved by the FDA for contact with foods.

I'd use a oven cooking bag instead.


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## rivet (Jun 20, 2009)

Thanks Ron!

Again, the results ~to me~ showed no difference.

In fairness to the test, most all preferred the brined one. 

During tasting interviews, a lot said that given the taste difference, it was not worth the extra hassle of brining. 

So, it is what it is. Even discounting my lack of tastebuds 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






 I am still not convinced that brining a retail, store-bought bird is worth the effort other than to make the cook feel better.


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## flash (Jun 21, 2009)

MMMMM....more salt too


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