# Is there anything similar to American BBQ in Europe?



## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Do people smoke undesirable (or whole animals) low and slow in Europe? If not how come this tradition did not develop? Is there any truth to this tradition being borrowed from Native and African Americans.


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## rwilli (May 21, 2021)

I am not sure about what we traditionally call BBQ with the sweet mustard/tomato/molasses, and brown sugar based sauces.  But the Europeans process, smoke, dry and cure fine meat such as a variety of sausage, pancetta, Spanish Chorizo, Pepperoni and many more.   Many also consider any meat cooked over a flame or hot coals to be BBQ.  If you go with that definition I am sure they have many dishes that would fall into the category of BBQ-----Not European,  but the Asians make many killer BBQ dishes.


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## PolishDeli (May 21, 2021)

The entomology of "barbecue" is thought to be from native Caribbean languages via the Spanish. So, 16th century or so.

Food processing in Europe was originally focused on preservation for the harsh winters; hence fermented and dry smoked sausages, jams, pickeled vegetables.

In the caribbean, changing seasons don't really limit the availability of food. So, id expect differnt culinary traditions to have evolved.


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## Hamdrew (May 21, 2021)

American BBQ as we know it was pretty much started by slaves.

Native Americans traded with people as far down as South America, and the Inca were  BBQ'ing 8,000yrs ago.

There are 1,800+yr old drawings of kebabs casually thrown into pics in China. Char Siu is/was known as Chashu in Japan. There's Korean bulgogi evidence from around that time, too. Gotta figure it was around before then there, too.


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Even Central TX BBQ has its origins in slaves?

What about whole hog? Didn't the Germans in the Carolinas come from a tradition of roasting whole pigs (spanferkel) or individual cuts (mutzbraten)? Did the Spanish have cohinillo before arriving in the new world?


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## Hamdrew (May 21, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> Even Central TX BBQ has its origins in slaves?
> 
> What about whole hog? Didn't the Germans in the Carolinas come from a tradition of roasting whole pigs (spanferkel) or individual cuts (mutzbraten)? Did the Spanish have cohinillo before arriving in the new world?


I think you may have misunderstood my point- BBQ seems to have been around everywhere, and for a long time. Slaves were already BBQ'ing the cheap/scrap/trash cuts before those immigrants made it to and started BBQ'ing in central TX. AFAIK Cohinillo is pretty hot and fast, cooked in a pot, and not usually heavily smoked, right?


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> I think you may have misunderstood my point- BBQ seems to have been around everywhere, and for a long time. Slaves were already BBQ'ing the cheap/scrap/trash cuts before those immigrants made it to and started BBQ'ing in central TX. AFAIK Cohinillo is pretty hot and fast, cooked in a pot, and not usually heavily smoked, right?



I see. Not sure about Cochnillo.

Did they borrow the idea from slaves or did they figure it out on their own ? It seems simple enough in a warm environment to smoke the leftovers/


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## PolishDeli (May 21, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> Even Central TX BBQ has its origins in slaves?



Texas bbq wasnt invented in a cultural vacuum.
It was home to the Karankawa, the Spanish (who brought the first slaves in the mid 1500s) and the French. Each influencing the culinary traditions.
Also in the 1500s, the Spanish were in the Philippines. Natives were roasting whole pigs there too.

The first Germans didnt arrive in North America till the early 1600s (Jamestown) 

Corn tortillas and tomato-based sauces were definitely not invented by Europeans!


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

PolishDeli said:


> Texas bbq wasnt invented in a cultural vacuum.
> It was home to the Karankawa, the Spanish (who brought the first slaves in the mid 1500s) and the French. Each influencing the culinary traditions.
> Also in the 1500s, the Spanish were in the Philippines. Natives were roasting whole pigs there too.
> 
> ...



I see. So did the Germans have their own tradition or contributions or did they borrow everything?


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## Hamdrew (May 21, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> I see. Not sure about Cochnillo.
> 
> Did they borrow the idea from slaves or did they figure it out on their own ? It seems simple enough in a warm environment to smoke the leftovers/


At least Nordic Europeans were smoking fish to preserve them a while before American slaves were BBQ'ing. Spending 16+hrs smoking a brisket to make it edible might have seemed like too much work, though- have no idea.


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> At least Nordic Europeans were smoking fish to preserve them a while before American slaves were BBQ'ing. Spending 16+hrs smoking a brisket to make it edible might have seemed like too much work, though- have no idea.



Aren't there other traditions in Europe of roasting animals? I think Sardinia has su porceddu which looks similar to whole hog bbq. Could be wrong though.


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## PolishDeli (May 21, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> So did the Germans have their own tradition or contributions



Yea, of course they did.
Sausages and breads for example.
In terms of Texas/Mexican foods, the most notable contribution would probably be beer. That's why all those Mexican beers are pilsners and lagers.

It's just that their foods didn't impact north American traditions till the mid 1800s.


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Is Cajun cochon de lait also borrowed from slaves? Or did the French have a similar tradition?

Of course su porceddu didn't impact the US but it sounds very similar to pit bbq.
Su Porceddu | Traditional Pork Dish From Sardinia, Italy | TasteAtlas


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## Hamdrew (May 21, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> Aren't there other traditions in Europe of roasting animals? I think Sardinia has su porceddu which looks similar to whole hog bbq. Could be wrong though.


Yes, there are. Again I am not saying slaves invented BBQ, I am saying that American BBQ as we know it/have today was pretty much started by slaves. 

Cajun whole pig/cochon WAS slave and poor people American BBQ/BBQ "as we know today".


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Yes, there are. Again I am not saying slaves invented BBQ, I am saying that American BBQ as we know it/have today was pretty much started by slaves.
> 
> Cajun whole pig/cochon WAS slave and poor people American BBQ/BBQ "as we know today".



I see. So slaves started the tradition but the later Central European immigrants just added their contribution on top of that (beef, brisket, sausages, mustard sauces) then?

Cajuns weren't slaves though and not of African descent. So do they have a claim to helping start American BBQ as well?


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## Hamdrew (May 21, 2021)

..huh? Slaves pretty much started American BBQ as we have today, i.e. the flavor profile. How would beef, brisket, sausages, mustard necessarily be contributions from Europeans? There were African Cajuns from Creoles, and white Cajuns had slaves. Your question has been answered: "yes."


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> ..huh? Slaves pretty much started American BBQ as we have today, i.e. the flavor profile. How would beef, brisket, sausages, mustard necessarily be contributions from Europeans? There were African Cajuns from Creoles, and white Cajuns had slaves. Your question has been answered: "yes."



Doesn't the mustard based sauce have its roots in South Carolina Germans? The first mention of smoked brisket is from a Jewish deli in Texas. Do the sausages of Central Texas BBQ not have German/Czech roots?


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## Humo18 (May 21, 2021)

Many believe the word Barbeque comes from the word "barbacoa", the smoke house used by the peaceful Taino indians that lived mostly in the Caribbean islands of Cuba, Hispaniola (Dominican Republic/ Haiti), Jamaica & Puerto Rico. The Mexican culture adopted this spanish word to denote their style of cooking in a hole in the ground but is more like baking protein rather than what we call barbeque in our country.  But that's just the word, the use of smoke to cook and preserve foods has most likely been a global activity for thousands of years.  We don't know who was the first human to barbeque their food.


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

Humo18 said:


> Many believe the word Barbeque comes from the word "barbacoa", the smoke house used by the peaceful Taino indians that lived mostly in the Caribbean islands of Cuba, Hispaniola (Dominican Republic/ Haiti), Jamaica & Puerto Rico. The Mexican culture adopted this spanish word to denote their style of cooking in a hole in the ground but is more like baking protein rather than what we call barbeque in our country.  But that's just the word, the use of smoke to cook and preserve foods has most likely been a global activity for thousands of years.  We don't know who was the first human to barbeque their food.



That makes sense.


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## chef jimmyj (May 21, 2021)

Slow Roasting Meat was invented right after the discovery of Fire and was the ONLY way meat was cooked EVERYWHERE and by ALL HUMANS until the invention of Clay Pots. Call it BBQ, BARBECUE, BARBACOA, VIANDE RÔTIE LENTEMENT (French), NYAMA CHOMA (Kenyan) or any of the Above preparations...
People of ALL Nationalities, Races, and Religions have Slow Roasted Meat on an Open Fire, by some means, for approximately 300,000 YEARS and NO ONE GROUP can take full credit for its invention...JJ


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## WaterinHoleBrew (May 21, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> Slow Roasting Meat was invented right after the discovery of Fire and was the ONLY way meat was cooked EVERYWHERE and by ALL HUMANS until the invention of Clay Pots. Call it BBQ, BARBECUE, BARBACOA, VIANDE RÔTIE LENTEMENT (French), NYAMA CHOMA (Kenyan) or any of the Above preparations...
> People of ALL Nationalities, Races, and Religions have Slow Roasted Meat on an Open Fire, by some means, for approximately 300,000 YEARS and NO ONE GROUP can take full credit for its invention...JJ



Well said Chef!


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## jcam222 (May 21, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> Slow Roasting Meat was invented right after the discovery of Fire and was the ONLY way meat was cooked EVERYWHERE and by ALL HUMANS until the invention of Clay Pots. Call it BBQ, BARBECUE, BARBACOA, VIANDE RÔTIE LENTEMENT (French), NYAMA CHOMA (Kenyan) or any of the Above preparations...
> People of ALL Nationalities, Races, and Religions have Slow Roasted Meat on an Open Fire, by some means, for approximately 300,000 YEARS and NO ONE GROUP can take full credit for its invention...JJ


Couldn’t have said it better J


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## paul_alex (May 21, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> Slow Roasting Meat was invented right after the discovery of Fire and was the ONLY way meat was cooked EVERYWHERE and by ALL HUMANS until the invention of Clay Pots. Call it BBQ, BARBECUE, BARBACOA, VIANDE RÔTIE LENTEMENT (French), NYAMA CHOMA (Kenyan) or any of the Above preparations...
> People of ALL Nationalities, Races, and Religions have Slow Roasted Meat on an Open Fire, by some means, for approximately 300,000 YEARS and NO ONE GROUP can take full credit for its invention...JJ



Exactly. Even in American BBQ there have clearly been European contributions. Not sure why people want to deny it.









						Texas smoked brisket - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Also I am pretty sure Cochon de lait did indeed originate in France.


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## Humo18 (May 22, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> At least Nordic Europeans were smoking fish to preserve them a while before American slaves were BBQ'ing. Spending 16+hrs smoking a brisket to make it edible might have seemed like too much work, though- have no idea.



In the 9th century A.D. Scandinavian people slaughtered pigs and goats for food in the Fall to prepare for the severe winters. I would imagine that during warmer autumns they smoked the meat to preserve it. During colder seasons I guess that freezing the meat was in order. Since they raised geese for food, they probably smoked them too like we smoke chicken today.


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## JLeonard (May 22, 2021)

I'm no expert.... But in my opinion what we call "BBQ" here in the States is a melting pot of all forms of cooking. There is no true American form of cooking. It all borrows from all cultures. And of course what some call "soul food" I just call "good eating", it seems to be a regional thing as to what we call things.  I say thank you to all that have came before and lent their culture to our form of "BBQ".
Jim


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## Humo18 (May 22, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> Slow Roasting Meat was invented right after the discovery of Fire and was the ONLY way meat was cooked EVERYWHERE and by ALL HUMANS until the invention of Clay Pots. Call it BBQ, BARBECUE, BARBACOA, VIANDE RÔTIE LENTEMENT (French), NYAMA CHOMA (Kenyan) or any of the Above preparations...
> People of ALL Nationalities, Races, and Religions have Slow Roasted Meat on an Open Fire, by some means, for approximately 300,000 YEARS and NO ONE GROUP can take full credit for its invention...JJ


cheff jimmyj, that's true!  We have been fire-roasting meat since archaic man (Homo Erectus) in Eastern Africa accidentally dropped his food on his warming fire 100k's years ago and liked it.  Homo Erectus spread throughout Asia and Europe all the way to Spain. It's now in our genes all over the world.


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## bill ace 350 (May 22, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> I see. Not sure about Cochnillo.
> 
> Did they borrow the idea from slaves or did they figure it out on their own ? It seems simple enough in a warm environment to smoke the leftovers/


Agree. In reality, many cultures no doubt figured it out on their own.

For those that disagree, i will use the example of "simple" technology found throughout the world, developed independently- the bow and arrow.


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## paul_alex (May 22, 2021)

Humo18 said:


> In the 9th century A.D. Scandinavian people slaughtered pigs and goats for food in the Fall to prepare for the severe winters. I would imagine that during warmer autumns they smoked the meat to preserve it. During colder seasons I guess that freezing the meat was in order. Since they raised geese for food, they probably smoked them too like we smoke chicken today.



That would make sense. I would imagine spit roasting birds was a common sight all over Eurasia.


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## paul_alex (May 22, 2021)

JLeonard said:


> I'm no expert.... But in my opinion what we call "BBQ" here in the States is a melting pot of all forms of cooking. There is no true American form of cooking. It all borrows from all cultures. And of course what some call "soul food" I just call "good eating", it seems to be a regional thing as to what we call things.  I say thank you to all that have came before and lent their culture to our form of "BBQ".
> Jim



Agree. There is no doubt European, African and Native influence


bill ace 350 said:


> Agree. In reality, many cultures no doubt figured it out on their own.
> 
> For those that disagree, i will use the example of "simple" technology found throughout the world, developed independently- the bow and arrow.



Agree. I suspect those who have an issue with this are influenced by articles like this: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-tradition-enslaved-africans-native-americans

As if European immigrants were foreigners to smoking. Pig roasts, Ox Roasts and smoked chicken was present in the Middle Ages.


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## paul_alex (May 22, 2021)

From some of my research it seems ox roasts died in popularity after the Middle Ages. I wonder why.


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## paul_alex (May 23, 2021)

bill ace 350 said:


> Agree. In reality, many cultures no doubt figured it out on their own.
> 
> For those that disagree, i will use the example of "simple" technology found throughout the world, developed independently- the bow and arrow.



What do you think of this article?









						Barbecue is an American tradition – of enslaved Africans and Native Americans | Michael W Twitty
					

The traditional holiday cookout has its roots in the cooperation between black and indigenous peoples struggling to get or keep their freedom from colonialists




					www.theguardian.com
				




Even if slaves did most of the cooking (no real sources and not sure how that is provable) I have read Lexington style BBQ's use of pork shoulder dates back to Germans and Texas' emphasis on brisket and sausage is indeed a German-Czech thing. Whole hog BBQ exists all around the world.


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## bill ace 350 (May 23, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> What do you think of this article?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Short on evidence,  long on opinion and conjecture.


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## forktender (May 24, 2021)

Myron Mixon invented BBQ, just ask him!!!.


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## Humo18 (May 24, 2021)




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## paul_alex (May 29, 2021)

bill ace 350 said:


> Short on evidence,  long on opinion and conjecture.



Here is another article saying the same thing.









						The Black Contribution to American Barbecue - Barbecuebible.com
					

Professor and culinary historian Jessica B. Harris writes about the history and Black contribution to American barbecue.



					barbecuebible.com
				




I am pretty sure whole animals roasts were common in the part of Europe early colonists came from. These articles seem way off base to me. But these people somehow have awards and pHDs.


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## Humo18 (May 30, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> From some of my research it seems ox roasts died in popularity after the Middle Ages. I wonder why.


Being beasts of burden, maybe owners could not afford to get rid of a working animal?


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## Humo18 (May 30, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> Here is another article saying the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no denying that African Americans of the south have contributed greatly to the evolution of BBQ in our country.  Many great black pitmasters out there that ply their trade based on cultural learnings and cook amazing BBQ.   I just don't get articles that claim that this fact has been erased from history.


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## paul_alex (May 30, 2021)

Humo18 said:


> There is no denying that African Americans of the south have contributed greatly to the evolution of BBQ in our country.  Many great black pitmasters out there that ply their trade based on cultural learnings and cook amazing BBQ.   I just don't get articles that claim that this fact has been erased from history.



Agreed. But they are not the only ones like these articles claim.


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## Humo18 (May 30, 2021)

paul_alex said:


> Agreed. But they are not the only ones like these articles claim.


That's true.


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## bill ace 350 (May 30, 2021)

Some scientists estimate fire has been used to cook food for at least 1.6 million years.

I don't think any one group can claim to have "invented" bbq cooking.


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## paul_alex (May 30, 2021)

bill ace 350 said:


> Some scientists estimate fire has been used to cook food for at least 1.6 million years.
> 
> I don't think any one group can claim to have "invented" bbq cooking.



True. I also just read _The Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook_ and it confirms Germans/Czechs used to smoke sausage + pork loins in the old world. I am guessing the excess of beef led to the smoking of brisket, clod, and beef ribs. Doesn't seem like they need anybody to teach them to smoke meats.


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## olaf (May 30, 2021)

My opinion would be that there was definitely a black influence in recent history as this was a time when we moved most of our cooking indoors while slaves were still outside. Still doesn't change the fact that our early diets would have been mostly vegetarian. I doubt that slaves got very much meat to cook or the time to slow roast anything. Maybe after the war


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## paul_alex (May 30, 2021)

olaf said:


> My opinion would be that there was definitely a black influence in recent history as this was a time when we moved most of our cooking indoors while slaves were still outside. Still doesn't change the fact that our early diets would have been mostly vegetarian. I doubt that slaves got very much meat to cook or the time to slow roast anything. Maybe after the war



I think I read that new sanitary regulations around the turn of the 20th century led to people adopting indoor smokers and the German-Czech meat market model won out over the open pit BBQ done by African Americans.

Slaves in the South did do the roasting for big events. But I really doubt they did all the cooking of roasted meats and there was certainly input from their owners into what they cooked.


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## 51Phantom (Jun 1, 2021)

I love watching Pitmaster X videos on Youtube. He is in the Netherlands I believe.


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## paul_alex (Jun 8, 2021)

Barbecue in Black and White
					

Cowgirls are taking turns climbing onto the stage and turning around to display their denim-clad derrieres to the audience. It's the Miss Blue Jeans Contest at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo barbecue cook-off. When a woman wiggles provocatively, the men wave their cowboy hats in the air...




					www.houstonpress.com
				




I guess whites were never pitmasters?


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## littleboss (Feb 17, 2022)

paul_alex said:


> True. I also just read _The Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook_ and it confirms Germans/Czechs used to smoke sausage + pork loins in the old world. I am guessing the excess of beef led to the smoking of brisket, clod, and beef ribs. Doesn't seem like they need anybody to teach them to smoke meats.




Yeah that is true for sure, since both Germans and Czechs wont miss sausage on their barbecues.


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## Humo18 (Feb 18, 2022)

paul_alex said:


> Even Central TX BBQ has its origins in slaves?
> 
> What about whole hog? Didn't the Germans in the Carolinas come from a tradition of roasting whole pigs (spanferkel) or individual cuts (mutzbraten)? Did the Spanish have cohinillo before arriving in the new world?


Yes the spanish roasted suckling pigs (cochinillo) over open fire way before Columbus (or Vikings?) Arrived in America.   Suckling and pig roasting has been recorded as far back as the Roman era in frescos art.


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## negolien (Feb 18, 2022)

HAHAHHAHAH not touching the slave part of this thread with a pole except to say pretty sure people were simmering crappy pieces of meat long before American slaves were around. I guess he could be talking about Egyptian slaves which would be us Jews /shrug. Poor education system in the us rears its 
head again lol

I would be interested in roasts Europeans do. We got Uk and down under types, but I don't see many members for the continent. Do we have a breakdown of members?


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## Smoke-Chem BBQ (Feb 18, 2022)

I received for Christmas a copy of "Black Smoke:  African Americans and the United States of Barbecue", by Adrian Miller.   If you want a scholarly treatment of American BBQ, this is for you.   300 pages, lots of footnotes, the 'references' section is 17 or 18 pages, single spaced, and there are a few recipes thrown in.  I'm enjoying it.

Black Smoke

I'm not all the way through the book yet, but I think the author's thesis is that while African Americans may be the single largest contributor to the evolution of what we now call BBQ in the US,  there have been many, many important contributors along the way.   He gives a lot of credit to the indigenous people in North America, and I think every other contributing group mentioned in this thread (German, Czech, other European, African, etc) is discussed.  Every culture that cooks meat over flame has made contributions to the art, though the extent to which those contributions influence American BBQ is quite variable.


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## PolishDeli (Feb 18, 2022)

This thread again.
Let's call a spade a spade.  The OP is obsessed with finding a european orgin story for bbq, while erasing african and indigenous contributions from the art form. 
It's dumb.

American history can be taught through the lens of bbq.  It is an amalgamation of culinary traditions with substituded ingredients.  Why is that a bad thing?


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