# Finally... for some time I have espoused not using cola in a curing brine...  FACTS follow...



## daveomak (Aug 9, 2016)

Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...

Acidic curing brines..

Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine.... I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave

*safety*

When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas. So don't add vinegar to the brine, and never mix liquid smoke (which is acidic) directly with curing salts.

　

You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

https://www.chefsteps.com/ingredients/prague-powder-no-1

　

*Poison Facts:*

*Low Chemicals: Nitric Oxide*

http://www.kumed.com/~/media/Imported/kumed/documents/nitricoxide.ashx?la=en

　

*Properties of the Chemical*

At room temperature, nitric oxide is a colorless gas with a sweet odor. It is

slightly soluble in water, but is highly reactive. Although the gas itself is nonflammable,

it will accelerate combustion and increase the risk of fire and

explosion in combustible and flammable materials.

*Uses of the Chemical*

The main sources of nitrogen oxides emissions (including nitric oxide) are

combustion processes. Fossil fuel power stations, motor vehicles and domestic

combustion appliances emit nitrogen oxides, mostly in the form of nitric oxide.

The chemical is used occupationally in the bleaching of rayon and in the

manufacture of nitric acid. Nitric oxide can be present at significant concentrations

in ambient and indoor air. It is used medically by inhalation to produce

selective pulmonary vasodilation and to improve oxygenation in patients with

various forms of pulmonary hypertension.

*Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism and Excretion (ADME)*

Nitric oxide is a gas; therefore, absorption can only occur through the eyes and

lungs. However, it will have contact effects with the skin. In the presence of

moisture and oxygen, corrosive conditions will develop as a result of the

formation of nitric and nitrous acids. The major proportion of inhaled nitric

oxide reaches the deeper parts of the lung and reacts with hemoglobin in

erythrocytes to form nitrosylhemoglobin which is converted immediately to

nitrite and nitrate. The nitrite and nitrate are then transferred to the serum, and

the greater part of the nitrate is excreted into the urine through the kidneys.

Most of the inhaled nitric oxide is eventually eliminated from the body as

nitrate.

*Clinical Effects of Acute Exposure*

Nitric oxide is a skin, eye and mucous membrane irritant. This is due to the fact

that moisture and oxygen convert nitric oxide into nitric and nitrous acids. The

most hazardous effects of nitric oxide are to the lungs. Inhalation causes

symptoms of coughing and shortness of breath, along with a burning in the

throat and chest. Patients may experience nausea and fatigue. Some pulmonary

symptoms may be delayed several hours. Methemoglobinemia may also occur.

*In-Field Treatment Prior to Arrival at a Health Care Facility*

*• *Remove the patient from the contaminated area. Nitric oxide’s effects on the

lungs increase upon exertion. All patients should be carried from the contaminated

area.

*• *Flood skin and eyes with water.

*• *If patient is experiencing difficulty breathing, coughing that does not resolve

with fresh air or tightness in the chest, administer oxygen if available. All

patients with pulmonary symptoms should be transported to the emergency

room.

*Special note to first responders:*

*• *Wear a positive-pressure Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA).

*• *Wear chemical protective clothing that is specifically recommended by the

manufacturer.

*Treatment of Exposures in a Health Care Facility*

*• *When the patient arrives at the health care facility, irrigate eyes and skin with

copious amounts of water.

*• *Monitor for respiratory distress, and administer oxygen or assist with

ventilation as necessary. Treat bronchospasm with inhaled beta2 agonists.

*• *Pulmonary edema may develop and is a delayed effect.

*• *Methemoglobinemia may occur because nitric oxide has a high affinity for

hemoglobin. It is the most rapidly binding ligand of hemoglobin currently

known and oxidizes reduced hemoglobin to methemoglobin.

*• *Acidosis may occur secondary to anoxia.

*• *Anticoagulation: Nitric oxide has been shown to inhibit both platelet

adhesion and aggregation.


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 10, 2016)

Good post and One more reason we say, Curing Meat with Cure #1 and Cure #2 should not be attempted until you have a full understanding of how and when these chemicals are used...JJ


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## pit 4 brains (Aug 10, 2016)

Great post Dave !!

Let alone the fact that colas are mostly corn syrup. Yuk. 

Better to stick with cane sugars for brine..


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## dirtsailor2003 (Aug 10, 2016)

Points for a great post Dave!


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## wade (Aug 10, 2016)

Hi Dave. I would still be wary about using the Chefsteps article as a reference source as at the top of the page it clearly points out that

"_ChefSteps ingredient wiki pages are community-edited. If you see incorrect information, please fix it or report it_".

Whilst it does state that "_When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas_." it neither defines what it means by "highly acidic" or at what concentrations of Nitric Oxide is deemed to be toxic or how rapidly the Nitrite will decompose. The only reference it offers on the page are to a general Wikipedia page on Curing Salt, which is somewhat lacking in content.

You highlight the article regarding the toxicity of Nitic oxide, however Nitric Oxide has been widely used pharmaceutically over the years. The Ppm concentrations of Nitrite that we see in a brine are very unlikely to be able to produce Nitric Oxide in concentrations that approach toxic levels. Pouring vinegar directly onto pure Nitrite powder and directly inhaling above it may possibly do it though. The biggest issue with increasing the acidity of the brine would be more about the effect of losing the Nitrite concentration rather that of Nitric Oxide production. This is a bit of an unknown at the moment and I know we have both been looking for references on it.

I think that you/we probably still need to keep looking to find evidence to support the statement "Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine...." as the overall pH of the solution will be dependent on a number of different factors - including overall final concentration. Adding a cup of vinegar to a gallon of brine is unlikely to have much of an effect on the final pH whereas making a brine completely out of vinegar would be very different. A few tablespoons of liquid smoke added to a gallon of brine are also likely to have little effect on the final pH.

Edited to remove the reference to Nitrous Oxide


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2016)

Wade said:


> Hi Dave. I would still be wary about using the Chefsteps article as a reference source as at the top of the page it clearly points out that
> 
> "_ChefSteps ingredient wiki pages are community-edited. If you see incorrect information, please fix it or report it_".
> 
> ...


_*Wade, you never cease to amaze me.... *_


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## wade (Aug 10, 2016)

Hi Dave. I think you are deliberately missing the general point of my response. I do concur with your point about Nitrous Oxide and so have removed it from my previous post. We are all human and I admit to sourcing that non-fact from Wikipedia - the same general source of information that Chefsteps use as the supporting reference in their community pages that initiated your post.

Reading your post you are clearly using the Chefsteps article to support a statement that you should "Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine"


DaveOmak said:


> Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...
> 
> Acidic curing brines..
> 
> *Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine....* I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave


Reading that article, I am sorry, but it does not support the statement in any meaningful way. If the point is actually "Avoid using brine that is too acidic" then I would agree with you - but if you are using the article as your evidence to "never" add acidic ingredients to a curing brine then I am disappointed in you.

As out of the 691 words in your post 550 of them (almost 80% of your post) were devoted to how poisonous Nitric oxide was, I assume therefore that a major point you are trying to make is how poisonous the nitric oxide is that could potentially be produced by an acidified brine. With the starting levels of Nitrite that would be present in a brine solution this is unlikely anyway and without any data regarding the rate at which the Nitric Oxide might be formed, how much remains in solution and how much is released into to air over time there is no supporting evidence for this in the article that you cite. Alternatively, if your point was to point out the dangers of Nitrite being broken down thus reducing the amount of available Nitrite in the cure itself - then I would be in agreement with you.

I did not want anyone relatively new to curing who was looking for good sound factual information from SMF to read your article and take away an extreme interpretation of your post. That is how many urban myths on sites like this are started.

edited to correct spelling


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 10, 2016)

I use ACID in Salt Brines for Pork and Poultry with great success. With a Curing Brine, my biggest concern would be acid degrading the Nitrite and rendering it's Antibacterial power ineffectual. However after further research, Acid breaks down Nitrite but the result is,
 Cure Accereration with no effect on its bacterial killing properties...JJ


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## wade (Aug 10, 2016)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I use ACID in Salt Brines for Pork and Poultry with great success. With a Curing Brine, my biggest concern would be acid degrading the Nitrite and rendering it's Antibacterial power ineffectual. However after further research, Acid breaks down Nitrite but the result is,
> Cure Accereration with no effect on its bacterial killing properties...JJ


That was the point I was trying to make at the end. I probably could have expressed it more clearly.


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2016)

Wade, you are so quick to critique and criticize without the teensiest bit of research on your own....    The absolute least you could have done is search for some proof that my post was legitimate, which I do believe it is, before slamming the door finding fault....  So what is your point trying to disprove my topic without any research of your own...   another pissing contest across the Atlantic.. 

Do some research and prove me wrong or correct... or please don't post on this thread....


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2016)

OK folks, here's the deal.....   I read an article that stated, "Do not add cola to a curing brine"...  No support for that statement whatsoever... 

So on several occasions I mentioned it purely with safety in mind....  

Then in discussions with N4YNU about that same point, Guy took it upon himself to help me out and see if he could locate something to substantiate that "vague" statement.....   I'm glad he dove in, trying to help us all, and search it out....   He found two valuable points why cola should not be added to curing brines...   Here, here!!! to Guy for having our best interest at heart... 

It appears it's the acidic element of cola that has effect on the sodium nitrite...   Without going into detail, to the "common man" that cures a few hunks of meat now and then, the original statement of "Don't add cola to a curing brine" would sufficient...   I'm sure there's a long detailed reaction, involving chemistry, that would bore most, including me, to death...

Well, at times that doesn't always sit well with me so with Guy's expertise and due diligence, a reasonable explanation was located and I passed it on so anyone on this forum that needed more info, it was there.... 

After reading the info Guy located, I changed the opening statement to, "*Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine*" ....   I feel that's adequate and self explanatory....  

For those of you whom feel the need to pick the poor thing to death and find fault with my intentions,  ....................................


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## wade (Aug 10, 2016)

Post deleted following our crossed posts. - Cheers for the explanation Dave


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## wade (Aug 10, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> OK folks, here's the deal.....   I read an article that stated, "Do not add cola to a curing brine"...  No support for that statement whatsoever...
> 
> So on several occasions I mentioned it purely with safety in mind....
> 
> ...


Dave that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation.

Wade


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 10, 2016)

Nitric Oxide can cause health problems. However, it has also been approved for use at doses of inhalation gas for NEW BORN Babies at 40ppm for Pulmonary Vasodilation. Frankly I think we have little to worry about as even 200ppm Sodium Nitrite in 1Gallon of Brine is very Dilute and will make nowhere near the FDA Approved 40ppm Nitric Acid Gas and definately not Clinical Toxicity of 80ppm!

Now it has been 30 years since my Advanced Chemistry Class and have no desire to do the math to find the Exact amount of Gas that will be generated from 200ppm Nitrite in 3785.41g of water and adding 354.88g Cola at a pH of 2.52...

Just an educated wild ass guess...While adding Cola or Acid of any kind to 100 or 1000 gallons of Curing Brine in an insufficiently ventilated, 120sqft Cold Room used to inject Hams, May be a Very Bad Idea!  I highly doubt there is anything to worry about, Nitric Acid wise, adding Cola to ONE Gallon of Pops Brine.  

Now getting back to Acid or Cola inactivating Sodium Nitrite? That is enough reason to not do it! The rest is arguing a moot point, Unless there are any Chemists here, who can show a TOXIC amount of Nitric Oxide, 80ppm, will come from 1 Gallon of 200ppm Brine...JJ
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Taken from a Trusted Medical Journal...http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/1/5.full
[h3]Pulmonary Vasodilation[/h3]
The primary demonstrated clinical indication for inhaled nitric oxide is hypoxic respiratory failure associated with persistent pulmonary hypertension of the newborn (PPHN). In 1992, Roberts _et al_. and Kinsella _et al_. reported that inhaled nitric oxide produced rapid and significant increases in oxygenation in term and near-term infants with PPHN, without detectable toxicity. In late 1999, positive findings in several randomized clinical trials led the Food and Drug Administration to approve inhaled nitric oxide for open-label use in these patients (Davidson _et al_., 1998; Day _et al_., 1996; The Neonatal Inhaled Nitric Oxide Study Group, 1997; Roberts _et al_., 1997; Wessel _et al_., 1997). A recent meta-analysis has also confirmed the clinical efficacy of inhaled nitric oxide for the treatment of PPHN (Finer and Barrington, 2000). Low doses of inhaled nitric oxide have been reported to be clinically effective, and most current dosing recommendations do not exceed 40 ppm. At this dose, there is little measurable short-term toxicity. Indeed, it is noteworthy that in the large randomized trials of inhaled nitric oxide, major clinical toxicity (e.g., methemoglobinemia) was observed only at doses ≥ 80 ppm (Davidson _et al_., 1998; Wessel _et al_., 1997). However, even low doses of inhaled nitric oxide may exert toxicity at the cellular level, potentially leading to long-term pulmonary complications. In this regard, nitrotyrosine residues have been detected in the lungs after 10 days of life in 2 of 12 infants who required prolonged ventilation and were treated with nitric oxide (up to 20 ppm) for 1–4 days (Hallman _et al_., 1998). These findings suggest that endogenous nitric oxide can alter proteins in the lung. Adverse outcomes have also been observed at clinical doses during weaning from nitric oxide, since rapid withdrawal can result in severe rebound pulmonary vasospasm (Atz _et al_., 1996; Cueto _et al_., 1997).


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## pit 4 brains (Aug 10, 2016)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Nitric Oxide can cause health problems. However, it has also been approved for use at doses of inhalation gas for NEW BORN Babies at 40ppm for Pulmonary Vasodilation. Frankly I think we have little to worry about as even 200ppm Sodium Nitrite in 1Gallon of Brine is very Dilute and will make nowhere near the FDA Approved 40ppm Nitric Acid Gas and definately not Clinical Toxicity of 80ppm!
> 
> Now it has been 30 years since my Advanced Chemistry Class and have no desire to do the math to find the Exact amount of Gas that will be generated from 200ppm Nitrite in 3785.41g of water and adding 354.88g Cola at a pH of 2.52...
> 
> ...


No kidding.. this thread lost it's usefulness.. 

What benefit would cola have in a brine anyway? It's corn syrup and artificial everything else..


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 11, 2016)

Pit 4 Brains said:


> No kidding.. this thread lost it's usefulness..
> 
> What benefit would cola have in a brine anyway? It's corn syrup and artificial everything else..


There are lots of Recipes and great Marinades using Cola, ( Coke is flavored with a Natural Extract of a Nut and Spices ) and Soda or Pop in general. It gives meat a good flavor.

Corn Syrup is bad? It's a Plant Sugar, same as Cane Sugar, Beet Sugar even Maple Syrup. Yes there are some differences chemically but in the Body it is like the others. A Carbohydrate and provides 4 Calories per Gram, just like any other Sugar. The Bad Press and all the hysteria? HFCS is Cheap, is in virtually everything Sweeted and for sale in the " Center Isles " of a grocery store. The result? For the high density population of inner cities and folks across the country with low or subsidized Income... 2Liters of Coke and a BIG BOX of Fruit Loops is cheaper than a basket load of Fresh Fruit, Organic Oat Cereal and a Gallon of Milk! Obesity and Diabetes is at an all time high and something or somebody needs to be blamed. HFCS is the current bad guy. However, Public outrage is causing a shift to Cane Sugar as a sweetener. Stick around...In 10 years, folks will be saying, " What benefit would cola have in a brine anyway? It's got* Real Sugar *and artificial everything else." 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





As far as the thread usefulness? There is good info here and Dave posted for informational purposes.  As with lots of Technical Data, there is going to be discussion and/or debate and, from time to time misunderstandings arise...JJ


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

Another day and the sun is shining


DaveOmak said:


> For those of you whom feel the need to pick the poor thing to death and find fault with my intentions,  ....................................


Hi Dave, yes your intentions were certainly good and anything that reduces the expected amount of Nitrite in a brine is not good. The emphasis in your post though on the toxicity hazards of Nitric oxide I think may have been a little misguided when referring to brine concentrations of Nitrite. When/if it is released some of the Nitric Oxide will remain in solution and as it is quite reactive with Oxygen and is readily mopped up by reacting with metallic ions and proteins that are released by the cut meat, it will have a very short half life. Unfortunately without knowing at what rate the NO will be produced as pH varies then it is currently guesswork as to whether toxicity levels are anywhere near being approached. It seems highly unlikely that they would be though.

You mentioned that Guy had found two valid points as to why cola should not be added to curing brines. Have you shared these or were they general comments to do with the breakdown of Nitrite in acidic conditions. Were these cola specific or do they equally apply to other acidic solutions too?

You mentioned a specific pH of 4.8 above witch it seems the brine needs to be kept. Where is this from? What I will try to do over the next few days is get a pH meter from work and see just how dilute things like Coke or vinegar need to be in order for the pH to move above 4.8. I have no idea at the moment so it will be an interesting experiment. It may help to  identify the scale of any issue with adding these types of ingredients to a brine.

Wade


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 11, 2016)

How come adding ascorbic acid to bacon cures is not a concern then?


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

That will have to be passed back to Dave to answer as he started the discussion regarding the safety concerns of using acidic components in a brine. To date I have not managed to find any evidence that either supports his claim or refutes it - but that does not mean that what he says isn't correct. _*IF*_ it is OK to use ascorbic acid but not other acidic components it _*MAY*_ be down to the resulting pH once it has been added. I think we need to wait and see more details of where Dave has got this information from before we can really discuss meaningfully.


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Nitric Oxide can cause health problems. However, it has also been approved for use at doses of inhalation gas for NEW BORN Babies at 40ppm for Pulmonary Vasodilation. Frankly I think we have little to worry about as even 200ppm Sodium Nitrite in 1Gallon of Brine is very Dilute and will make nowhere near the FDA Approved 40ppm Nitric Acid Gas and definately not Clinical Toxicity of 80ppm!
> 
> Now it has been 30 years since my Advanced Chemistry Class and have no desire to do the math to find the Exact amount of Gas that will be generated from 200ppm Nitrite in 3785.41g of water and adding 354.88g Cola at a pH of 2.52...
> 
> ...


Excellent find for those interested in the possible effects.....   Good searching....


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

atomicsmoke said:


> How come adding ascorbic acid to bacon cures is not a concern then?


Ascorbic Acid is another name for a synthetic Vitamin C I believe...  Evidently the food industry has done some testing and found it safe.... maybe....  krap, who knows...

*Ascorbic acid* is a naturally occurring organic compound with antioxidant properties. It is a white solid, but impure samples can appear yellowish. It dissolves well in water to give mildly acidic solutions. Ascorbic acid is one form ("vitamer") of vitamin C. It was originally called L-hexuronic acid, but, when it was found to have vitamin C activity in animals ("vitamin C" being defined as a vitamin activity, not then a specific substance), the suggestion was made to rename it. The new name, ascorbic acid, is derived from _a-_ (meaning "no") and _scorbutus_ (scurvy), the disease caused by a deficiency of vitamin C. Because it is derived from glucose, many non-human animals are able to produce it, but humans require it as part of their nutrition. Other vertebrates which lack the ability to produce ascorbic acid include some primates, guinea pigs, teleost fishes, bats, and some birds, all of which require it as a dietary micronutrient (that is, in vitamin form).[sup][2][/sup]


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

Wade said:


> Another day and the sun is shining
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wade, if you would have read my post #1, you would have seen it in the first article......
Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...

Acidic curing brines..

Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine.... I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave

*safety*

When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas. So don't add vinegar to the brine, and never mix liquid smoke (which is acidic) directly with curing salts.

　

You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

https://www.chefsteps.com/ingredients/prague-powder-no-1


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade, if you would have read my post #1, you would have seen it in the first article......
> Please avoid adding acidic ingredients to your curing brine...
> 
> Acidic curing brines..
> ...


OK Dave. I did read it but knowing you, I thought that you were basing your warning statement on more than just a comment found in another community discussion post. The person posting offers no explanation as to how the pH 4.8 figure is derived - they just quote it as a fact. They are also getting Nitrate and Nitrite confused in their post so I am not sure how much credence we should place in it - though maybe it was just a typo that went unnoticed...


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

Ellen ngIf: comment.data.author.employee _Works at ChefSteps_ end ngIf: comment.data.author.employee  ngIf: comment.data.author.jouleAmbassador  ngIf: comment.data.parentCommentId && comment.data.parentCommentAuthor 9 mo ago

ngIf: !comment.collapse.collapsed && !comment.editing 
Hi Pablo, thank you for your question. Yes, it is possible that if the brine is too acidic when nitrate is being added, you run the risk of producing a gas that is dangerous to inhale. You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.

Are you suggesting Ellen just picked a number out of the air with the distinct possibility of ruining her reputation ???   You'll have to write to Ellen and request her source of the information....   

For press inquiries: [email protected]
For general inquiries: [email protected]
For customer service: [email protected]


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

[h2]What is ChefSteps?[/h2]
ChefSteps believes cooking makes us better people—seriously. Founded in 2012, we’re a Seattle-based food and technology company on a mission to help people cook smarter. Chefsteps.com and its companion app are designed to inspire creativity and encourage experimentation through high-quality interactive content, techniques, tools, and resources.

The ChefSteps team is made up of 50+ voices—chefs, scientists, photographers, writers, and engineers—and we all come to work each day with one thing in mind: helping you cook confidently. (We call this “cooking smarter.”) Why? Because the more you know about cooking, the better you get at it. And the better you get at it, the more fun it is. We think cooking and eating together makes us better humans, and we want to share that belief with the world.


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## hoity toit (Aug 11, 2016)

What a very informational post. I read all of this and all of the other posts in response as well.

I think I would have to agree on no acidic in the brine. Who was it here that said why add all those perfumes and let the meat speak for itself.??

The only thing I know about nitric or should I say nitrous oxide is that we used to use it as an accelerant in our race car for bursts of speed. I will go back and re read all of the post again too.

I also checked out that ChefSteps site and really enjoyed reading the Sous Vide info., I have way to much information to process now. Thanks again folks.

HT


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 11, 2016)

" Acid is another name for a synthetic Vitamin C I believe...  Evidently the food industry has done some testing and found it safe.... maybe....  krap, who knows..."
----
Vitamin C or not is an acid (weak) and it would lower the pH when added to water solution. I calculated 462ppm (max  level ascorbic acid in US) would give a pH of 3.34.


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 11, 2016)

Nothing against chefsteps Dave but I think we have way more than 50+ chefs scientists, engineers here.


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Ellen ngIf: comment.data.author.employee _Works at ChefSteps_ end ngIf: comment.data.author.employee  ngIf: comment.data.author.jouleAmbassador  ngIf: comment.data.parentCommentId && comment.data.parentCommentAuthor 9 mo ago
> 
> ngIf: !comment.collapse.collapsed && !comment.editing
> Hi Pablo, thank you for your question. Yes, it is possible that if the brine is too acidic when nitrate is being added, you run the risk of producing a gas that is dangerous to inhale. You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.
> ...


Dave - You are basing your warning on information based upon this community post. I will let you verify your own quoted source.


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

I don't think that we are going to confirm or otherwise the question about adding acid into a brine quickly but maybe we can confirm whether gas is liberated when neat acid comes in direct contact with the curing salts. In order to do this I have just performed a quick visible test with some cure#1, cure #2 and plain salt (about 10g of each) with neat vinegar, 10% vinegar and liquid smoke.













Salt Vinegar.jpg



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Salt Liquid Smoke.jpg



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Cure 1 and 2 vinegar.jpg



__ wade
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Cure 1 and 2 Liquid smoke.jpg



__ wade
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Cure 1 ans 2 vinegar.jpg



__ wade
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Short videos of what happened to follow. With the neat vinegar there was a slight reaction with the cure#1 and 2 and a seemingly stronger reaction with the liquid smoke. There was no visible reaction with the plain salt. This seems to confirm the that a reaction does take place between neat vinegar and liquid smoke and the cure salts - which is potentially breaking down the Nitrite/Nitrate.. The reaction was gentle though and there was no obvious evidence of toxic quantities of gas being released.

The 10% vinegar on the other hand showed no visible signs of a reaction.


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

Somebody took the time to figure out something about acid in nitrite..  Personally, it's worth paying heed to statements like that.... 

I don't have to reinvent the wheel over everything I read, just stuff that piques my interest .. 

What is surprising....   all the times I have read the FSIS handbook on curing meats, I don't recall anything pertaining to acid in cure....


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

_*The reaction was gentle though and there was no obvious evidence of toxic quantities of gas being released.*_

Excellent qualitative lab experiment....   now we know it's safe to add acid to nitrite....


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

Dave - please be civil. I am trying to confirm at least part of the statements that you cited in your original post. I said that this was a quick visible test.

Edited to remove quantitative experiment reference - sorry Dave.


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## daveomak (Aug 11, 2016)

Wade said:


> Dave - please be civil. I am trying to confirm at least part of the statements that you cited in your original post. I said that this was a quick visible test and did not claim that it was in any way _*quantitative*_.


Again you didn't read my post.....   Big difference !!!!!!!!!  ....    At lest read what I write before you criticize.....

Excellent _*qualitative*_ lab experiment....   now we know it's safe to add acid to nitrite....  

OK, I'm done commenting on this thread.....  have at it....    BYE !!!!


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 11, 2016)

We should warn all members not to add vinegar to their coleslaw . We love lettuce/radish salads in our family. with plenty of apple cider vinegar...phew: we could have chocked on toxic gases eating it (or burping it?). No more.


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## wade (Aug 11, 2016)

As promised here is a short(?) video showing the visual effects of adding vinegar and liquid smoke directly to curing salts in the form of cure#1 and cure#2

Firstly neat vinegar on plain table salt. - No reaction visible
Neat vinegar on cure #1 and #2 - No immediate visible reaction however after about a minute small bubbles were visible in both mixtures. This is an indication that the vinegar is reacting with the Nitrite/Nitrate and so potentially reducing the amount available in the cure
Liquid smoke with cure#1 and cure #2. Immediately small bubbles form causing a froth to appear on the surface of the liquid. This is an indication that the liquid smoke is reacting with the curing salts
10% vinegar on cure #1 and cure #2. No reaction apparent even after 5 minutes. This does not mean that the vinegar isn't reacting with the curing salts but it not to the extent that it is releasing visible amounts of gas
Liquid smoke on table salt - no visible reaction
This quick experiment does help support the recommendation that "strong" acids, including liquid smoke, should not be added directly to the curing salts in the form of Cure#1 and Cure #2. It does however not directly support the claim that doing so will release toxic levels of NO gas under these conditions - and there was no provision to identify what the gas released actually was. Adding the acids to a pure sample of Nitrate or Nitrite may lead to a very different situation though.

Adding the dilute acid to the cures did not result in a visible reaction and no gas appeared to be released. This does not mean that there was no reaction taking place though.



I have tried to help support some of the statements made in the original post however the main statement that you should "Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine" is still unsubstantiated and so is the implication that doing so will result in toxic levels of Nitric Oxide being produced.

Dave, I will now leave you to to continue your source validation and I hope that more concrete information on this subject is available soon.


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## wade (Aug 13, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> [h2]What is ChefSteps?[/h2]
> ChefSteps believes cooking makes us better people—seriously. Founded in 2012, we’re a Seattle-based food and technology company on a mission to help people cook smarter. Chefsteps.com and its companion app are designed to inspire creativity and encourage experimentation through high-quality interactive content, techniques, tools, and resources.
> 
> The ChefSteps team is made up of 50+ voices—chefs, scientists, photographers, writers, and engineers—and we all come to work each day with one thing in mind: helping you cook confidently. (We call this “cooking smarter.”) Why? Because the more you know about cooking, the better you get at it. And the better you get at it, the more fun it is. We think cooking and eating together makes us better humans, and we want to share that belief with the world.


Thanks Dave. I am aware of Chefsteps as I have been a Chefsteps member for quite a while. I have got a lot of very good information from them in the past but just because they are good with food it does not mean that they are also curing experts. I have posted up on their forum to see if we can get more information regarding the pH 4.8 figure and I have also e-mailed. Hopefully they will respond soon.

In the meantime, if we assume that what they say is accurate about the minimum safe pH of a brine being 4.8 is correct then I wanted to test how much Coke (other colas are available) could be added to a brine for it to be within this limit. I first measured the pH of my tap water - it was pH 7.2. I then measured the pH of neat coke and added successive glasses of water to dilute it and then measured the resulting pH.













pH 2.jpg



__ wade
__ Aug 13, 2016






Limitations of this experiment: This was bucket chemistry and I was using a glass filled to the brim as a measure. I was using Diet Coke (as that was all I had) and I was using water and not brine. When I get some standard coke I will repeat the experiment using brine

CokeWater  pH%Coke          10  2.8100.0011  3.750.0012  4.533.3313  4.925.0014  5.220.0015  5.316.6716  5.414.2917  5.512.5018  5.611.1119  5.710.00110  5.79.09













Coke pH.JPG



__ wade
__ Aug 13, 2016






From this quick experiment it appears that you can go up to a 25% solution of (Diet) Coke before the pH drops below 4.8 - which according to Ellen at Chefsteps would be an acceptable pH for a brine.

When I try with the full Coke and Brine I will repeat the experiment with Vinegar and also Ascorbate to give an indication oh how much of each can be added to a brine for it to have a pH that remains above 4.8

We need to be clear at this point though that we still have no credible evidence to support (or otherwise) the 4.8 value but hopefully Ellen will be able to provide this soon.


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## charswifterie (Aug 13, 2016)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Nitric Oxide can cause health problems. However, it has also been approved for use at doses of inhalation gas for NEW BORN Babies at 40ppm for Pulmonary Vasodilation. Frankly I think we have little to worry about as even 200ppm Sodium Nitrite in 1Gallon of Brine is very Dilute and will make nowhere near the FDA Approved 40ppm Nitric Acid Gas and definately not Clinical Toxicity of 80ppm!
> 
> Now it has been 30 years since my Advanced Chemistry Class and have no desire to do the math to find the Exact amount of Gas that will be generated from 200ppm Nitrite in 3785.41g of water and adding 354.88g Cola at a pH of 2.52...
> 
> ...


Not to beat a dead horse (or a dead mea†..) but nitric oxide is essential for the boy side of the process by which we all came to be. Vasodilation. I remember reading this a while back. I'll not bother to explicate, this is a cooking/curing/smoking forum, after all. Just posting this for a chuckle.

I think soda pop is poison, with the HFCS being a metabolic disruptor of the first order. The cliché "beer gut" should soon become "pop belly," but I know it tastes yummy. Dave's original point, spot on in my opinion. I haven't drunk a soda pop in years. No point in putting it in my cure brine that I can see.

Thank you for your service and selflessness, Dave!

John


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## daveomak (Aug 13, 2016)

John, Thanks much...  Any report form Chef's Steps would be way cool.....


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 13, 2016)

Charswifterie said:


> Not to beat a dead horse (or a dead mea†..) but nitric oxide is essential for the boy side of the process by which we all came to be. Vasodilation. I remember reading this a while back. I'll not bother to explicate, this is a cooking/curing/smoking forum, after all. Just posting this for a chuckle.
> 
> I think soda pop is poison, with the HFCS being a metabolic disruptor of the first order. The cliché "beer gut" should soon become "pop belly," but I know it tastes yummy. Dave's original point, spot on in my opinion. I haven't drunk a soda pop in years. No point in putting it in my cure brine that I can see.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, Coke, Root Beer, Ginger Ale and Dr.Pepper...Were all created as Health Drinks, with cane sugar, and were not an issue of concern for some 100 years. Nothing Poisonous about them... Regardless, If the percapita consuption of soda remained the same as today but it was made with Premium HONEY...The net health effects would be the same. Fructose is Fructose regardless of the Plant Source, be it Corn or Clover Flower nectar...Drinking 2-4 liters of Soda a day regardless of what it is sweetened with is going to cause some form of Metabolic Disruption...JJ


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## daveomak (Aug 13, 2016)

I think I read somewhere, the phosphoric acid has lots of detrimental health effects...  BUT, because I'm senile, that storage file is gone....


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## charswifterie (Aug 13, 2016)

My understanding is that high fructose corn syrup is a refined byproduct of some food process, and thus cheap as heck. It is reported to have a cumulative negative effect on the metabolism, nad diabetes has become epdemic. That's easy enough to research.

My choice for my meat, both me and what I eat, is to avoid soda pop. I can make my own nitric oxide on occasion, but that isa topic for a different forum. hahah


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## wade (Aug 14, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade, you are so quick to critique and criticize without the teensiest bit of research on your own....


Hi Dave. You and I have had a number of discussions where we have shared, compared and discussed resources and so I think this comment is somewhat unfair - although I probably do not read as extensively as yourself. I am expecting to retire next year and so will hopefully have more time then too. Having worked in analytical environments all of my working life (some of which have been in pharmaceutical research), although I do not class myself as an expert in any particular area when it comes to cure/brine chemistry, I am able to objectively look at claims and evidence that support them and gauge how much confidence we can have in conclusions reached. If the confidence factor appears to be low then the claims need to be challenged. Often when challenged more evidence then emerges that supports the claim and helps increase the confidence.

In order to try to support/verify your initial statement that we should "Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine...." I have been re-reading some old papers that I had previously downloaded and came across a reference book that I had forgotten - Modern Food Microbiology. If you do not have it I think that it will also be of interest to you.

Looking at the general post that you initially cited from Chefsteps, reviewing the chemistry of Nitrite and the results of my initial curing salts chemistry, I think that your conclusion regarding acid is completely valid when it comes to adding acid directly to curing salts, however It does not appear to be valid when it comes to adding it to a curing brine. In fact the opposite appears to be true.

You highlighted a very important factor which I think is easily missed and that is the order in which things are added in a brine. As Nitrite is readily broken down in highly acidic conditions then if you add any acidic ingredients to the curing salts before adding the main bulk of water then there is a very strong chance that the initial solution could be highly acidic and the Nitrite broken down before it can become active in the brine.

Regarding the action of the Nitrite as an antimicrobial, although the exact mechanism is not completely understood at the molecular level it is generally accepted that it is the nitrous acid that is formed when Nitrite is in solution that is the active antibacterial ingredient. On page 312 of the book, in the "Summary Nitrite Effects" it says "_Nitrite has a pK of 3.29 and, consequently, exists as undissociated nitrous acid at low pH values. The maximum undissociated state and consequent greatest antibacterial activity of nitrous acid are between pH 4.5 and 5.5_.". This suggests that adding some acid to a brine is actually desirable to bring the pH to within this range.

It goes on to say that in ham (not Brine I know) that "_With respect to its <<Nitrite>> depletion or disappearance in ham... , Nordin found the rate to be proportional to its concentration and to be exponentially related to both temperature and pH. The depletion rate doubled for every 12.2◦C increase in temperature or a 0.86 pH unit decrease_". This suggests that for every ~1 unit of pH more acidic the cure gets  the rate of Nitrite depletion is more than doubled. The most desirable pH for the brine would therefore be the point where there is maximum antibacterial effect but where the depletion of Nitrite is at a rate where it is sufficiently available to do what is required. It needs to be remembered though that we tend to brine for periods of days/weeks and so it is may more beneficial to err towards the higher 5.5 pH (less acid) to give a longer period of time for the Nitrite to be active.

I have not heard back from Ellen yet but she says in the post that you cited "_You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic._" This is consistent with the "optimum" pH range above. Maybe she has evidence that when you go below this pH the rate of Nitrite breakdown starts to have a more significant effect than the antimicrobial effect of the Nitrite itself. Also she does not say "do not add Coke" - just that neat Coke would be too acid. My bucket experiment shows that you could theoretically have up to 25% coke in the brine and still be within the "optimum" effective antimicrobial pH range.

As an aside Dave, a while ago we were discussing the rate at which Nitrite was lost with temperature. This book mentions "The Perigo Factor" which indicates that the initial amount of Nitrite before cooking is more important than the final residual amount. I think there is still quite a lot of academic "discussion" about this but you may like to look it up if you haven't already.

Back to your initial post. Would you be comfortable revising your statement to "_Never add acidic ingredients directly onto the curing salts_" and recommending that the curing salts be the last thing that gets added to the brine? It would probably also be useful to identify the effects of acidic ingredients on the pH of a brine and give guideline recommendations based upon the probable effect on the final pH of the brine.


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## fpmich (Aug 17, 2016)

*WOW GUYS!  Good argument going. *

Maybe you guys (2 of my friends here) are bored, and just need a good argument for entertainment? 

Mostly only 2-3 people contributing to content.  Probably because we are bored too.  <grin>  (Me?  Well I'm just here.)

I'll wait for the smoke to clear, and see final results.  But it don't matter to me much as I don't cook with coke.  I make my flavors on my own.

I like knowing exactly what is in my food.  Sometime it takes a few trials and testing, to get a flavor, but it's ALWAYS better than any prepared stuff from stores.

45 years ago I made jerky once, using coke.  It was good, but I've never done it since.  It just didn't seem right to me.

Have fun Wade and Dave (edited - not  Bear), but forgive and forget at the end.  It's just not worth the stress.


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## bdskelly (Sep 4, 2016)

Coke.. Nitrite... Pergio Factors...

Can one of you tell me what happens when I add this to the thread?













IMG_5958.JPG



__ bdskelly
__ Sep 4, 2016


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## wade (Sep 5, 2016)

Black label is a cure best used by itself - maybe with a single ice cube made of pure highland branch water. It is known to be a good cure for a lot of things


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## hoity toit (Sep 9, 2016)

Yes,,,I agree Wade.

HT :)


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## hoity toit (Sep 9, 2016)

BDSkelly said:


> Coke.. Nitrite... Pergio Factors...
> 
> Can one of you tell me what happens when I add this to the thread?
> 
> ...


The thread will probably start heading downhill.....(smilin) you guys crack me up


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## wade (Sep 10, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> John, Thanks much...  Any report form Chef's Steps would be way cool.....


Hi Dave.

As requested I contacted ChefSteps regarding Ellen's reply to the post that you referenced and got a response. I have subsequently asked for more clarification but this has not yet been forthcoming.

Yes, Ellen does still work at ChefSteps and she is their Customer Experience Director - e.g. marketing manager. The information in her response back to me was from one of her colleagues and was mostly general information about how Nitrite works as a cure.

She confirmed that not adding acid directly to curing salts is only a general rule and not a warning of danger. Regarding Nitric Oxide exposure she quoted the OSHA recommendation of less than 25 ppm (30 mg/m3) exposure in general industry. This appears to be a sustained exposure limit though rather than a one-off exposure. You may possibly (?) see transient levels higher than this if you add acid directly to pure curing salts and breathe in directly over the top however you are highly unlikely to get levels even approaching this coming from a fully diluted brine.

She did make a general comment though that a reason to avoid acids is that an acidic solution with free amines is more likely to form the carcinogenic nitrosamines - but this appeared to be just a general comment, was not specifically in relation to a curing brines and there was no supporting explanation or references.

I asked specifically if she had any views regarding adding acidic ingredients to a curing brine and she did not express any. Also she did not provide any further information regarding the minimum pH level she previously quoted in her post of 4.8.

Sorry to the rest of you out there...


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## wade (Oct 2, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Any report form Chef's Steps would be way cool.....


Oh well, I did finally get another response back from Ellen but it was just to say that they were very busy at the moment and that their "margin to reply further is nonexistent at this point". She then suggested that I post the questions on their forum to see if their other community members may be able to add further insight/information.


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## daveomak (Oct 3, 2016)

Wade...  So what's the point of this exercise ???   Are you trying to prove adding a cola product to nitrite is not safe.....   Or are you trying to prove the Chef's Steps article is incorrect ??


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## wade (Oct 3, 2016)

Hi Dave - You said you were interested in the feedback from ChefSteps and so I am just updating you. It has taken a while for them to respond again and so I just forwarded their latest (uninformative) update to keep you in the loop. I doubt if there will be any further information from them supporting their original community forum post now.

I think that we have already shown that the original statement "Never add acidic ingredients to your curing brine" is not actually supported by the ChefSteps article however it did raise the very important issue of not adding acid ingredients _*directly onto the curing salts*_  - as it will likely cause the Nitrite to break down. The implied warning regarding the poisonous nature of Nitric Oxide though was really rather over the top when it comes to the concentrations usually found in domestic meat curing.

One thing this discussion did get me to do though was to buy a new pH meter. Even though there is not much evidence to support the pH 4.8 that they referred to, the other reading that I did when researching this suggest that keeping the pH at around 5.5 may actually be a better idea. I am not suggesting that we should all strive for a pH of 5.5 but there were suggestions in the literature that this gave a good balance between effective bacterial control and Nitrite breakdown.

Cheers

Wade


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## wade (Oct 19, 2016)

Hi Dave. I have come across another reference regarding not using Coke together with cure in a brine that you may be interested in. It is in the Brining section of Stella Culinary.


> Also, when brining the pork loin or pork chop, you can substitute 100% of the water with cola, which is pretty classic approach to brining pork. However, it’s very important to note that you SHOULD NEVER MIX CURING SALT (sodium nitrate or nitrite) with cola, because it will form a potentially lethal compound. So use regular table salt only.


https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-...cience-behind-brining-four-part-video-lecture

It is fairly nonspecific though as it is in a section that refers to substituting 100% of the water for Coke. It also does not elaborate on what the "potentially lethal" compound is. Still it is another reference.

Cheers

Wade


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