# Will this work? Cure #2 question.



## indaswamp (Mar 3, 2018)

So...I just made a batch of boudin.
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/boudin-time-step-by-step-and-pics-recipe-added.273245/

I want to make smoked boudin. I can not hot smoke it or the casing will bust. I can't cold smoke under refrigeration so that option is out.

There is a famous boudin shop locally known that IMO sells the best smoked boudin on the planet and this is the gold standard I'm shooting for. They claim on their website the boudin is made in the same way as their regular boudin. But I know for a fact they use cure. When cross cutting a link you can clearly see the pink tint to the meat. I would think cure #1 is out because of the cooking process prior to smoking. There would not be enough nitrites left to protect the meat for later smoking. This brings me to cure #2.

Could I cure the coarse 3/4" grind, then boil like regular boudin, mix and stuff in casing, then smoke in the smokehouse and be safe?


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 3, 2018)

How long do you plan to cold smoke it?


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## indaswamp (Mar 3, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> How long do you plan to cold smoke it?


Long as it takes to get the smoke on it. I want a heavy smoke, not a lite smoke. I don't know the time yet. I've not done it in my new smokehouse yet but wanting to, just trying to figure out a way forward with the cure.


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## indaswamp (Mar 3, 2018)

This is what I'm shooting for...
https://www.beststopinscott.com/Smoked-Boudin.html


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## indaswamp (Mar 3, 2018)

I'll be using oak and pecan....


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 3, 2018)

I make offal sausage ....cooked organs....cold smoked after stuffing. But i do this during winter.

If you are concerned with what could happen during a long no heat smoke in mild weather why don't you add cure to the mix before stuffing the sausage?


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## indaswamp (Mar 3, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> I make offal sausage ....cooked organs....cold smoked after stuffing. But i do this during winter.
> 
> If you are concerned with what could happen during a long no heat smoke in mild weather why don't you add cure to the mix before stuffing the sausage?


I have never heard of adding cure to cooked meats. Will it still penetrate the meat to inhibit botulism?


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## daveomak (Mar 4, 2018)

Add the cure to the cold meat and smoke away...


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

I'd would think curing the butts before the heat process would be best, but, then you'd have a hammy flavor. The ones in the link you shared look like they were hot smoked, they are definitely not as plump as yours and a little greasy.

Being a cooked product, would they need cure to smoke? I think the USDA give you a 6 hour window to get them down to 40°....Just throwing that out there


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Add the cure to the cold meat and smoke away...


Are you saying to add the cure to the cold raw meat prior to making the boudin or once the boudin is cooked and made, let it cool, then add the cure, stuff and smoke?


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## daveomak (Mar 4, 2018)

I don't know for sure, but there still may be spores because the temp has not gotten to 250 F, like it would in a pressure cooker...   I'm just throwing in the added safety measure for protection...   Low oxygen environment and all..   I don't think the cure will have an adverse effect...


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 4, 2018)

What temps do you have at night down there?

What's the lowest temp your (hot) smoker can run at?


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> What temps do you have at night down there?
> 
> What's the lowest temp your (hot) smoker can run at?


Right now, the low temp is in the 50's. Lowest night time temp. is in the 20's (on some occasions), but more common is 30's~40's in the winter.

Lowest temp my hot smoker will go is 100*F. That is with the propane burner going. If I use an AMPNS I could probably run it 1~2* above ambient temps. I have a 36cu.ft. smokehouse.


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

daveomak said:


> I don't know for sure, but there still may be spores because the temp has not gotten to 250 F, like it would in a pressure cooker...   I'm just throwing in the added safety measure for protection...   Low oxygen environment and all..   I don't think the cure will have an adverse effect...


spores are fine, as long as they do not grow into clostridium botulinum bacteria it won't hurt you, which is the reason for the cure. I guess my question is this-will cure travel into cooked meat?


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

Would you still be removing the casings before eating?


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

danmcg said:


> Would you still be removing the casings before eating?


No, on the smoked boudin, the casing is cooked enough so that you get a good snap on it. Some people still remove it from the casing out of habit, but not necessary on smoked boudin.


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## daveomak (Mar 4, 2018)

*spores are fine, as long as they do not grow into clostridium botulinum bacteria it won't hurt you*

Spores mature into the bacteria in a warm moist environment...  like your gut...  spores are not fine...


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

Dave, it is my understanding that the spores are not what gets you, it's the toxin produced from the bacteria. The spores can be present and the cure prevents them growing into bacteria which produce the toxin.



> Sodium nitrite is a salt and an anti-oxidant that is used to cure meats like ham, bacon and hot dogs. Sodium nitrite serves a vital public health function:* it blocks the growth of botulism-causing bacteria and prevents spoilage.*



http://www.meatsafety.org/ht/d/sp/i/45243/pid/45243
http://www.meatsafety.org/ht/d/sp/i/45243/pid/45243


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

I don't know the answer, but if the sausage is cooked before you stuff it, Then what would be the difference warm smoking them for a couple hours, and  and putting it in a warm oven for a couple hours to serve later?


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

What temp. are you suggesting when you say 'warm smoke'? I have tried 160* twice in the past and the casings bust. with boudin falling all over inside the smokehouse. This was in a MES gen. 1 though, not my big smokehouse....


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

Found this too Dave:


> Botulism spores are everywhere – from the deep ocean to mountain tops. You're likely breathing them right now. It's only under specific conditions that they become dangerous.





> Normally, botulism spores hang out and go right through your body without causing problems. They're tough critters. Hours of boiling, heat, cold, chemicals – they can survive them all. Problems show up when the spores germinate. When the spores become biologically active, they produce deadly neurotoxins. Out in the dirt, no big deal. There are plenty of other microbes to balance things out, and the toxins don't build up to high levels. Stored in your canning pantry – not good.


https://commonsensehome.com/botulism/


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

daveomak said:


> *spores are fine, as long as they do not grow into clostridium botulinum bacteria it won't hurt you*
> 
> Spores mature into the bacteria in a warm moist environment...  like your gut...  spores are not fine...


Botulism needs a neutral pH to grow, which is why ingesting the spores won't hurt you, except for small babies that do not have their defenses fully developed-which is why you should not feed a baby honey in any form.

Deaths from botulism occur ingesting the already developed bacteria and the toxins....


At least this is the way I understand it....


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

I was thinking above 140°


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

danmcg said:


> I was thinking above 140°


Are you suggesting stepping up the temp. to 140* or getting the smokehouse up to 140*, then putting the boudin in the smokehouse?


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

I was wrong, I was thinking 140 ° because it 's out of the danger zone but obviously the meat would be in it for a couple hours anyways while smoking.


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

Yea, the sausage will trail the smokehouse temp by 25~30*, it will not get out of the danger zone. Which is why I went with 160*....and the casing just keeps popping on me....:confused:


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

Hmmmmm, Liquid smoke? :rolleyes:


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

HAHAHAHAHAHA! 

I guess I'll need to do more research to see if cure will penetrate cooked meat. Hopefully Chef JJ will see this and comment his thoughts.


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## DanMcG (Mar 4, 2018)

there is a couple threads here on SMF, and there's a few that do it. check it out. I was also wrong about my post saying you have a six hour window to cool cooked meat in the zone. USDA says 2 hours.  And to reheat cooked meat you need to get it up to 165°, which doesn't work for you.  Wish I had an answer.
 Maybe go down to that butcher shop and get a job for a day and see how they do it. ;)


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

danmcg said:


> Maybe go down to that butcher shop and get a job for a day and see how they do it. ;)


I have thought about it.....believe me....


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> I make offal sausage ....cooked organs....cold smoked after stuffing. But i do this during winter.
> 
> If you are concerned with what could happen during a long no heat smoke in mild weather why don't you add cure to the mix before stuffing the sausage?


What temps are you cold smoking? I've seen some of your creations in nose to tail forum. You are boiling the offal first, then making say stuffed stomach and smoking? Are you using any cure when you stuff?


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 4, 2018)

No cure, everything is cooked before stuffing. But i can count on low temps when i smoke them (i make these in winter).


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

so you are smoking under 40*??


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 4, 2018)

At times it could be above 40.


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## indaswamp (Mar 4, 2018)

So you are not worried about botulism? Or are you just ok with the risks?


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 4, 2018)

I sent you a PM


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## indaswamp (Mar 5, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Add the cure to the cold meat and smoke away...


Dave, will the cure penetrate cold already cooked meat? if it will, but I just will not get a pink color because the myoglobin has already set, I'm fine with that. I just want to be able to warm smoke some boudin.


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## daveomak (Mar 6, 2018)

Yes the cure will penetrate...  the meat "should" turn pink...  it's a chemical reaction..  the chemicals are still there... I don't know if a 40-50 degree rise in the meat temperature can make a chemical change...


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## indaswamp (Mar 17, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Yes the cure will penetrate...  the meat "should" turn pink...  it's a chemical reaction..  the chemicals are still there... I don't know if a 40-50 degree rise in the meat temperature can make a chemical change...



Alright Dave... Thank you for your patience. I have one more question...
Do I need to add cure based on the weight of just the meat; the meat and skin; or the meat, skin, and any liquids I add (cooked stock)? What about the cooked rice? Do I include that in the weight?

Next batch of boudin, I will add cure and smoke. I'll post a thread for everyone to follow.


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## daveomak (Mar 17, 2018)

Ppm is a ratio of weights...  1 gram of nitrite added to 1,000,000 grams of something = ~1 Ppm....

Due to the wide range of effectiveness nitrite has, and still be "safe" to consume...  And, considering we are not "necessarily" governed by the FDA, as home processors...  Doing the best we can with what we have, is a giant leap forward in home food safety...  
Bones & pork skin can be exempt in calculating nitrite addition...  chicken skin, I think, should be included...  also rice and any soup stock, as both can be contaminated and re contaminate other food stuffs....
If you are adding  1/4 cup of water to facilitate stuffing a casing, it's not a big deal if that weight is not included in any calculations...  
You can calculate the effect on NOT including a weight... 
5#'s of meat and stuff (2270 gms) ...  1/4 cup water = 59 grams
59  / 2270 = 2.5% ..  target of 159 Ppm and 2.5% difference = +/- ~*4 Ppm*...  That is within our limits of accuracy..  and not a big deal....


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## indaswamp (Mar 17, 2018)

Thanks again Dave....


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 18, 2018)

Late to the party. Been in the hospital for the last 6 weeks.
Ok, Myoglobin is responsible for the color of meat. In the raw meat Myoglobin is a very dark red. When first exposed to oxygen it changes to Oxymyoglobin and becomes that familiar bright red of fresh meat. Further time exposed and the Oxymyoglobin becomes Metmyoglobin with that brown color. While raw one form can be manipulated into another restoring the color, or as with Cure a permanent chemical change made. Once cooked well done, a denatured form of Metmyoglobin is formed and the meat will be brown regardless of what you do or add. As far as Botulism protection, adding cure #1 based on the weight of the Meat and Rice will get you there. Smoke at any temp that works for you...JJ


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## indaswamp (Mar 18, 2018)

Thanks JJ!! disregard that last pm I sent you. And thanks again man!


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 18, 2018)

Note....Above I meant to say cure #1 based on meat and rice. That is likely more than needed as we are not using cure to set the meat color. Sorry...JJ
Edited the Post.


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## indaswamp (Mar 21, 2018)

Chef JJ, which cure are you referring to? Cure #1 or cure #2? I'm assuming you are referring to cure #1, but I'm asking for clarification to be sure.


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## daveomak (Mar 21, 2018)

I believe JJ is referring to cure#1......


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## Gwanger (Apr 7, 2018)

Inda- after cooking the pork butt and pork skins and adding rice and get it cool enough to stuff in casings are you running it thru grinder to stuff or using a sausage stuffer.


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## indaswamp (Apr 7, 2018)

sausage stuffer.


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## Cajun Smokes (Dec 5, 2021)

Found this post from a few years ago, had the same question as you. All smoked boudin I have bought from Lafayette to Lake Charles has the pink color to the meat. What the was the final result of smoking boudin? I am looking to make and smoke some this weekend.


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## PorkHock (Apr 8, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> I have thought about it.....believe me....


Iirc they gave their recipe to the foodnetwork. I have made it before, although I scaled down the recipe but it did taste exactly like the boudin I have gotten from them before. 
Here's the recipe:


> 60 pounds Boston pork butt
> 
> 6 pounds pork liver, cut into 4-inch cubes
> 
> ...


You make it like would you would regular boudin. The only difference is you add the browning sauce to the stock after you cooked the pork in it and then add the stock/browning sauce to the pork/rice mix. I recommend using gravy master over kitchen bouquet. Now I'm hungry for boudin....


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