# montreal smoke meat



## michelcoco (Apr 2, 2013)

is there any body that knows how to make the real montreal smoke meat?

like schartz ,duns or lester.         thank you


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## mneeley490 (Apr 2, 2013)

I've never tried it. I've heard it's similar to pastrami, but without the pepper/corriander spice rub?


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## michelcoco (Apr 2, 2013)

swartz smoke meat is considered the best smoke meat in the world.

look it up on the net.


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## disco (Apr 2, 2013)

MICHELCOCO said:


> is there any body that knows how to make the real montreal smoke meat?
> 
> like swartz ,duns or lester.         thank you


I don't know a recipe but I sure hope someone knows how. I would take a trip to Montreal just to go to Swartz's.


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## michelcoco (Apr 3, 2013)

i maid a mistake .the name is schwartz


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 3, 2013)

There's a recipe and detailed method in "The Mile End Cookbook: Redefining Jewish Comfort Food from Hash to Hamantaschen." written by Noah Bernamoff and Rae Bernamoff, displaced Montrealers with a deli in New York. The cure should be adjusted to the correct amount.



~Martin


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## bad santa (Apr 3, 2013)

Here is a recipe for Montereal Smoked Meat that was posted on the Big Green Egg site, don't know how close it is to Schwartz's, but looks to be tasty non the less...

[h1]ultimate montreal smoked meat recipe[/h1]




biggreenmatt  Posts: *45*

July 2011  in EggHead Forum

This recipe is lengthy but not difficult. It takes two weeks to make. Stick through it and you'll get a final at-home product that's on par with Schwartz's, Smoke Meat Pete or any other of the holy smoke meat temples you'll find on the island of Montreal. Really- it's that good.

Didn't make up the recipe: I'm just spreading the gospel.

MONTREAL SMOKED MEAT

Cure a 12 lb double-brisket (fat-cap on) by adding the following spice mixture generously to both sides:

1/2 c Readycure (1% nitrate) + 1/4 c kosher salt *OR*  4 tb instacure (6% nitrate "pink salt") + 1.5 c kosher salt
1/2 lb cracked black pepper
1/4 lb sugar
1/4 lb cracked coriander
3 tb bay leaf powder
3 tb cloves

Place brisket in an XXL ziploc bag and let cure for 10 days in the fridge, flipping the brisket twice daily.

On day 11, thoroughly rinse off the cure and then soak in cold for at least 3 hours, changing the water every half-hour to get out most of the salt. Dry. Cover top of brisket with 2:1 mixture of cracked pepper to cracked coriander seed. Cover and refrigerate overnight.

On day 12, smoke over maple chunks for 4 hours at 250. After 4 hours, completely foil the brisket and return to smoker (or oven) to cook for another 5 hours. At this point the smoke meat will be fantastic, but not 100% tender. Resist eating it now. Let come to room temperature and refrigerate overnight.

On day 13, gently steam the brisket for 3 hours just prior to service. Odds are that you won't have a steamer big enough- I improvised by putting water in a foil turkey roasting pan, throwing a baking rack on top and then covering it with a second pan.

To carve, cut against the grain and on the bias very thinly, using a VERY SHARP slicing knife (the knife actually makes a difference). Serve stacked on fresh seeded rye bread with mustard.

RIDICULOUSLY GOOD.


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## disco (Apr 3, 2013)

Bad Santa said:


> Here is a recipe for Montereal Smoked Meat that was posted on the Big Green Egg site, don't know how close it is to Schwartz's, but looks to be tasty non the less...
> 
> [h1]ultimate montreal smoked meat recipe[/h1]
> 
> ...


You, sir, are my hero. I can't wait to try this.


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## seenred (Apr 3, 2013)

Yep...this is definitely now on my to-do list!  Thanks, Bad Santa, that recipe sounds awesome.

Red


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## michelcoco (Apr 3, 2013)

thanks biggreematt .  very much appreciated .

i will let you know once i try it.

building my own wood smoker


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## s2k9k (Apr 3, 2013)

Something about this recipe didn't look quite right to me so I PM'd one of our Food Safety experts to look at it and here is his reply:

The Readycure and Insta Cure both contain sodium nitrite, not sodium nitrate.

If it's Canada Conpound's Readycure it is used at a rate of 2% when applied dry, since I don't know for sure how much a 1/2 cup of it weighs, I can't say if that's a correct amount or not.
It really should be weighed to use it properly.

Instacure is 6.25% sodium nitrite,, in the recipe he's using 5 to 6 times what should be used. One level teaspoon per 5 lbs. of meat is the correct amount.


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## michelcoco (Apr 3, 2013)

Thank you there is two kind of instacure#1
Or#2 . I check it out on the net


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 3, 2013)

Insta-Cure #1 is the one that should be used.


~Martin


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## michelcoco (Apr 4, 2013)

martin you are write on       thank you     

                                                                michel


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## roller (Apr 4, 2013)

This sounds like my kind of project...Thanks for posting...


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## michelcoco (Apr 4, 2013)

let me know how it turns out roller thanks


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## tcaptain (Apr 5, 2013)

Oh wow.  

I might try that myself later in the season!  I love Schwatz's but hate standing in line :/


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## disco (Apr 5, 2013)

TCaptain said:


> Oh wow.
> 
> I might try that myself later in the season!  I love Schwatz's but hate standing in line :/


You are so lucky to live in Montreal. Not only is there great smoked meat, there is the Jean Talon and Atwater markets and don't even get me started on fries cooked in duck fat. I could spend all day at the Fromageries alone. Sigh. I guess I need another trip to Montreal.


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## tcaptain (Apr 6, 2013)

I do consider myself lucky, but with a new family and a new(ish) house I don't get out as much as I used to.  I used to hit Schwartz's once every couple of weeks.

I've never had the fries cooked in duck fat though, sounds delish.   Montreal is where it's at for good food, at least in the north east.

The wife and I do enjoy hitting Atwater market as often as we can though.  They have the best sausage and veggies and the fromagerie there is nice.  We have a top notch butcher near there who keeps me well supplied in meat.

Since I don't go out as much, I've become more obsessed with making great food at home.  BBQing (real bbq I mean, not grilling) is the main thing I'm enjoying.  This summer is going to be a big season for experimenting.  I did some really great ribs and pork butt last year and will do them again, but I'm planning to try chicken wings, beef ribs, brisket and turkey this year (the smoker upgrade this year is big enough, it should be awesome).

The only disadvantage is that Smoking isn't real popular around here so getting equipment and supplies is expensive, if you can get it at all. 

Still...I'm spreading the gospel o' smoke so it can only get better :)


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## wwdragon (Apr 6, 2013)

TCaptain said:


> I do consider myself lucky, but with a new family and a new(ish) house I don't get out as much as I used to.  I used to hit Schwartz's once every couple of weeks.
> 
> I've never had the fries cooked in duck fat though, sounds delish.   Montreal is where it's at for good food, at least in the north east.
> 
> ...


TCaptain,

Laval area here, just finally bought a smoker today after years of using a smokebox in the BBQ. If you got any tips or would even like to have a experment smoke day where we can try different things let me know, who knows, a nice get together could be fun, I got a pool we can use while sipping on cold refreshments (beer) as we keep an eye on the smokers. Then again, with my luck the women would be in the pool ordering us around lol


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## disco (Apr 6, 2013)

TCaptain said:


> I do consider myself lucky, but with a new family and a new(ish) house I don't get out as much as I used to.  I used to hit Schwartz's once every couple of weeks.
> 
> I've never had the fries cooked in duck fat though, sounds delish.   Montreal is where it's at for good food, at least in the north east.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it is any cheaper than your local area equipment and supplies but I have mail ordered casings, ingredients and a stuffer from www.stuffers.com in BC. They mail order across Canada and have given me good service.


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## tcaptain (Apr 9, 2013)

Disco said:


> I don't know if it is any cheaper than your local area equipment and supplies but I have mail ordered casings, ingredients and a stuffer from www.stuffers.com in BC. They mail order across Canada and have given me good service.


Ho!  Hell yeah.  I'm browsing the site and I just might check out the shipping costs because they seem to have things I haven't found locally.   Plus, I've been itching to make some smoke sausages (I mean go balls out, casings, spices everything...not just fatties).

Thanks for the heads up!


> Originally Posted by *wwdragon*
> 
> Laval area here, just finally bought a smoker today after years of using a smokebox in the BBQ. If you got any tips or would even like to have a experment smoke day where we can try different things let me know, who knows, a nice get together could be fun, I got a pool we can use while sipping on cold refreshments (beer) as we keep an eye on the smokers. Then again, with my luck the women would be in the pool ordering us around lol


Sounds great!  I always like to chat with local smokers.  I sent you a PM a couple of days ago.


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## michelcoco (Jul 11, 2013)

well disco you don't have to take a trip to montreal for smoke meat I just did the receipe from the mile end cook book

and it is fabuless it is fantastic here is the picture.


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## michelcoco (Oct 9, 2013)

seen did you tried the smoke meat recipe  yet ?

                                                                                  michel


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## bermster (Oct 19, 2013)

Recipe looks AMAZING!!!  I was only able to get a 5 pound brisket.  Any advice on smoking/cooking/steaming times?  Any help would be great.

Brisket finished curing.  Now sitting in bath of water getting cleaned.  I plan to smoke tomorrow morning.

Cheers,

Mike


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## michelcoco (Oct 20, 2013)

don't forget to change water every 1/2 hrs. keep in water for a minimum 3hrs.

michel


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## zarqy (Nov 9, 2013)

I have a 16lb brisket curing with this recipe in the fridge as we speak.  How come nobody posted their results?


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## michelcoco (Nov 10, 2013)

I have done it quit a few times. I is ridiculously good very close to shwartz smoke meat in montreal

it is very important to rinse in water a minimum of 3hrs.and change your water every 1/2 hrs if not

it will be very salty. excuse my spelling English is my second language.

                                                                                                                          Michel         good luck let me how it turn out


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## zarqy (Nov 10, 2013)

Do you remember what wood(s) you used?


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## zarqy (Nov 10, 2013)

So this is the only smoked meat recipe that I've found that cures for 11 days before smoking.  All others are 4 days.  Does anyone see any reason why I can't smoke after 9 days and get the same results?  (9 days is much more convenient for me than 11)


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## michelcoco (Nov 11, 2013)

maple is very good.


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

If you didn't have maple what would your second choice be?


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## bagbeard (Nov 11, 2013)

Bad Santa said:


> Here is a recipe for Montereal Smoked Meat that was posted on the Big Green Egg site, don't know how close it is to Schwartz's, but looks to be tasty non the less...
> 
> [h1]ultimate montreal smoked meat recipe[/h1]
> 
> ...


I have a 6lb brisket flat i got at the meat auction at my favorite butcher.  got it for half price cause nobody was bidding.  just wondering if i can divide the recipe in half for the brine?

Tried pastrami once but like the taste of montreal smoked meat better.  cant wait to try. 

Happy Smoke!


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

There is no reason why you can't scale the recipe to your size of meat. The only thing I would caution as others have stated - the quantity of Insta-cure is incorrect. The manufacturer states to use no more than 1 tsp per 5 lbs of meat.  In your case with a 6 lb brisket you should use no more than 1 1/4 tsp


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## michelcoco (Nov 11, 2013)

att: as to be instacure #1. the measurement you have are correct.also instacure is call prague powder#1 for dry cure only.

for wet cure use #2                 michel


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## mneeley490 (Nov 11, 2013)

MICHELCOCO said:


> att: as to be instacure #1. the measurement you have are correct.also instacure is call prague powder#1 for dry cure only.
> 
> for wet cure use #2                 michel


I don't believe that is correct. Cure #2 is used mainly for sausage making. Cure #1 can and should be used for dry and wet curing.


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

Prague Powder #1 aka Insta Cure #1, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite and 93.25% Sodium Chloride. It used in the curing process to prevent botulism poisoning and to provide the characteristic flavor and red color associated with curing. Prague Powder #1 is recommended for meats that require short cures and will be cooked and eaten relatively quickly, like sausages. It is not appropriate for long cured products like hard salami.

Recommended usage for curing is 1.1g per 500g of meat.

Prague Powder #2 aka Insta Cure #2, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite, 4.00% Sodium Nitrate and 89.25% Sodium Chloride. It used in the curing process to prevent botulism poisoning and to provide the characteristic flavor and red color associated with curing. Prague Powder #2 is recommended for meats that require long (weeks to months) cures, like hard salami and country ham.

Recommended usage for curing is 1.1g per 500g of meat.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

MICHELCOCO said:


> att: as to be instacure #1. the measurement you have are correct.also instacure is call prague powder#1 for dry cure only.
> for wet cure use #2                 michel



That's not correct.
Cure #2 is used in long term dry curing only.



zarqy said:


> Prague Powder #1 aka Insta Cure #1, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite and 93.25% Sodium Chloride. It used in the curing process to prevent botulism poisoning and to provide the characteristic flavor and red color associated with curing. Prague Powder #1 is recommended for meats that require short cures and will be cooked and eaten relatively quickly, like sausages. It is not appropriate for long cured products like hard salami.
> Recommended usage for curing is 1.1g per 500g of meat.



Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite.
Be very careful with Sel Rose because the nitrite can vary.
The amount you use depends on what you are curing and the method of curing.



zarqy said:


> Prague Powder #2 aka Insta Cure #2, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite, 4.00% Sodium Nitrate and 89.25% Sodium Chloride. It used in the curing process to prevent botulism poisoning and to provide the characteristic flavor and red color associated with curing. Prague Powder #2 is recommended for meats that require long (weeks to months) cures, like hard salami and country ham.
> Recommended usage for curing is 1.1g per 500g of meat.




There are at least three commonly available Cure #2 formulations, all with different amounts of nitrite and nitrate.



~Martin


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

So I think we can all agree that when it comes to using cures with Sodium Nitrite it's best to follow the directions set out by the manufacturer.  For example mine came from Modernist Pantry which is where I copied and pasted the ingredient list from.  Using too much Sodium Nitrite can seriously harm you.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

Most manufacturer's don't give detailed instructions for all forms of curing, some even provide erroneous information.
It's important that everyone educate themselves on appropriate and safe cure amounts for various curing situations.



~Martin


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

Sodium Nitrate is used in the curing process to prevent botulism poisoning, particularly for long aged meats like country hams.Its commercial use is prohibited by the FDA in smoked and cooked meats, non-smoked and cooked meats, sausages or bacon and is restricted to 200ppm in dry cured uncooked products. Usage for home curing should not exceed 0.1g per 500g of meat.

During the curing process Sodium Nitrate is converted into Sodium Nitrite by microorganisms present on the meat. Sodium Nitrite provides the characteristic flavor and red color associated with curing.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

Ugh!!!
I just looked a Modernist Pantry's website, they have some very bad information in regard to cures!


~Martin


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

What is incorrect?


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

Here's more information I found on nitrite levels

http://www.sausagemaker.com/product..._Level_in_Brine_with_InstaCure_(Imperial).pdf


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

Several things!
If their Cure#1 is 6.75% nitrite, it's the only Cure#1 in the USA that's not 6.25% nitrite....which would REALLY suck because there's so much written as far as instructions and proper amounts go for Cure#1 that's 6.25% nitrite.
Even so they're incorrect in saying "Prague Powder #1 aka Insta Cure #1, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite."...that's simply not the case, because almost all, if not all, Cure#1 in the USA and Canada is 6.25% nitrite as I said above.
There's wrong information in their recommendations for sodium nitrate's use and a few other things.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

There are serious errors in the information in the Sausagemaker link you posted, as I detailed in a couple older threads.
You need to refer to the Food Code or the Process Inspector's Manual for the right information.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137916/who-can-spot-the-errors

~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

I hope this doesn't scare anyone when it comes to curing, unfortunately a few bad sources were stumbled upon, it's not difficult to get it right when you understand a few basic  fundamentals.



~Martin


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Several things!
> If their Cure#1 is 6.75% nitrite, it's the only Cure#1 in the USA that's not 6.25% nitrite....which would REALLY suck because there's so much written as far as instructions and proper amounts go for Cure#1 that's 6.25% nitrite.
> Even so they're incorrect in saying "Prague Powder #1 aka Insta Cure #1, pink curing salt, or Sel Rose is composed of 6.75% Sodium Nitrite."...that's simply not the case, because almost all, if not all, Cure#1 in the USA and Canada is 6.25% nitrite as I said above.
> There's wrong information in their recommendations for sodium nitrate's use and a few other things.
> ...


You are absolutely correct, they did a typo and said 6.75 instead of 6.25 and 93.25 Sodium Chloride instead of 93.75.  You said several things.  What else is incorrect?  The most important information is the usage directions of 1.1g per 500g of meat.  Is that inaccurate as well?


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

zarqy said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> > Several things!
> ...



Depends on what you're curing....156ppm nitrite is fine for sausage and most short term dry curing. (The rule of thumb, one level teaspoon of Cure#1 per 5 lbs of meat equates to ~156ppm nitrite.)
The amounts of nitrite are different  for an immersion brine depending on what method you use.

There's a calculator on my website that makes finding the proper amount very easy......
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124590/universal-cure-calculator

There's a lot wrong with the information in their sodium nitrate description, but I don't think that it's appropriate to detail the particulars here because it's unrelated to this thread and it could confuse folks.


~Martin


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## zarqy (Nov 11, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Depends on what you're curing....156ppm nitrite is fine for sausage and most short term dry curing. (The rule of thumb, one level teaspoon of Cure#1 per 5 lbs of meat equates to 156ppm nitrite.)
> The amounts of nitrite are for and immersion brine depending on what method you use.
> 
> There's a calculator on my website that makes finding the proper amount very easy......
> ...


Thanks for the link. I used your awesome little calculator (bookmarked!) and it says for 12 lbs of meat (5.443Kg) that 13.50g of Cure#1 is to be used.  This is a bit shy of 1TB (I just weighed 1 TB and I got 19g)

This was the whole point of what I was trying to say in the first place.  The Montreal Smoked Meat recipe calls for 4TB!!!  That' 4 times as much as needed.


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## palladini (Nov 11, 2013)

Bad Santa said:


> Here is a recipe for Montereal Smoked Meat that was posted on the Big Green Egg site, don't know how close it is to Schwartz's, but looks to be tasty non the less...
> 
> [h1]ultimate montreal smoked meat recipe[/h1]
> 
> ...


You can try this one also - http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/...e/schwartzs-procedure-for-smoking-meat/12167/


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 11, 2013)

I hope that folks are reading the following information that I relayed in regards to the biggreanmatt recipe.....

*"The Readycure and Insta Cure both contain sodium nitrite, not sodium nitrate.

If it's Canada Conpound's Readycure it is used at a rate of 2% when applied dry, since I don't know for sure how much a 1/2 cup of it weighs, I can't say if that's a correct amount or not.
It really should be weighed to use it properly.

Instacure is 6.25% sodium nitrite,, in the recipe he's using 5 to 6 times what should be used. One level teaspoon per 5 lbs. of meat is the correct amount."*

It really should be changed in all instances in this thread because the amounts are WAY off.



~Martin


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## michelcoco (Nov 12, 2013)

I have been explain instacure#1 is for meat that require cooking

instacure#2 is for air dry meat no cooking

                                                                          michel


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## michelcoco (Nov 12, 2013)

instacure#1 for any type of meat that require cooking

instacure#2 for air dry not cook

                                                          michel


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## zarqy (Nov 16, 2013)

I'm 5 hours into cooking this and I've reached internal temp of 165 already.  Should I take it off or should I continue for the full 9 hours as the recipe calls for.  (Reason i ask is some recipes say to cook to 165 and steam to 180)


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## zarqy (Nov 16, 2013)

> MONTREAL SMOKED MEAT
> 
> Cure a 12 lb double-brisket (fat-cap on) by adding the following spice mixture generously to both sides:
> 
> 4 tb instacure (6% nitrate "pink salt") + 1.5 c kosher salt


I have so far followed this recipe to a tee (yes I know we already addressed that it's 4x too much Instacure)  but my question is about the 1.5c of kosher salt.  Was that too much as well?   I'm thinking I must have been because I just cut off a small piece once I hit internal temp of 165 and it was so salty I gagged.  Is it the salt or is it that it hasn't been steamed yet?  Really hoping it's the latter.  I can deal with the time and effort going to waste, but $65 for a piece of meat that ends up being an inedible salt lick isn't okay with me.


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## bagbeard (Nov 17, 2013)

got my brisket rubbed down and in the fridge last night.  now the wait begins.  i will be watching this thread closely.  Zarqy did you rinse changing water? you said you followed to at tee so you probably did.

keep the updates coming


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## ralphed (Nov 17, 2013)

Could the error have been that it should be 4 tsp instacure?

I'm watching also, I wanna make some of this!!

Thanks all!

ralphed


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## zarqy (Nov 17, 2013)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bagbeard*  
 
got my brisket rubbed down and in the fridge last night.  now the wait begins.  i will be watching this thread closely.  Zarqy did you rinse changing water? you said you followed to at tee so you probably did.

Yes, I rinsed for 3 hours, changing every 30 mins.  They allowed the meat to rest in the fridge over night as the recipe called for.  

P.S. I did end up leaving to cool for the prescribed number of hours, allowed it to cool on the counter and the put it in the fridge.  I took another sample after it cooled and I'm pleased to say it's not too salty anymore.  

Currently I'm 30 mins into the 3 hour steaming process.  Getting excited!


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## zarqy (Nov 17, 2013)

Originally Posted by *ralphed*  
 

Could the error have been that it should be 4 tsp instacure?

When I made it I followed the recipe with the incorrect amount of Insta-cure.  When I make this again I will (and you should too) only use 1 tsp per 5 lbs of meat.


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## bagbeard (Nov 17, 2013)

i used 1 1/4 tsp on my 6 lb brisket. 

i prefer my montreal smoked meat and pastrami cold and thin sliced so i will be changing the cooking process.  the last time i made pastrami i used a wet brine then smoked to IT 195. wrapped in foil for 1/2 hr then into fridge till next afternoon used neighbours meat slicer to cut it all up.  family loved it.   i plan on doing the same thing with this montreal smoked meat.

so you used 4 tsp of instacure?  is it ok to eat like that?

doesnt sodium nitrite have a more powerful salt taste than kosher salt? maybe this added to the salt flav.


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## zarqy (Nov 17, 2013)

bagbeard said:


> i used 1 1/4 tsp on my 6 lb brisket.
> 
> i prefer my montreal smoked meat and pastrami cold and thin sliced so i will be changing the cooking process.  the last time i made pastrami i used a wet brine then smoked to IT 195. wrapped in foil for 1/2 hr then into fridge till next afternoon used neighbours meat slicer to cut it all up.  family loved it.   i plan on doing the same thing with this montreal smoked meat.
> 
> ...


 Option 1 was 1/2c ready cure + 1/4 cup kosher salt

Option 2 was 4 TB instacure + 1.5 cup salt

These are not even.  Option 2 calls for WAY too much salt.  I think in fact it is a typo.  I think the recipe creator should have typed 

Option 2: 4 TSP instacure + 1/2 cup kosher salt

which is still too much.  For a 12lb brisket it should be 2 1/4 tsp Instacure + 1/2 cup kosher salt

Whoever used option 2, what do you think?


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## zarqy (Nov 17, 2013)

Just got done slicing up half the brisket


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bagbeard (Nov 17, 2013)

that looks great. how's it taste?

i used 3/4 cup kosher salt for my 6 lb brisket.

hope its not too salty.  iv heard you can rinse in water longer if worried about it being too salty


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## zarqy (Nov 17, 2013)

bagbeard said:


> that looks great. how's it taste?
> 
> i used 3/4 cup kosher salt for my 6 lb brisket.
> 
> hope its not too salty.  iv heard you can rinse in water longer if worried about it being too salty


The fat areas are way too salty.  The lean areas are perfect.  Next time I will trim the fat a bit more before I cure it,  cut the salt to 1cup and use the appropriate amount of cure#1 and I think it will be perfect.  Maybe I'll increase the rinse by an hour

You know what, I'm being really picky.  It's wonderful.  Better than anything I can buy around here.  My wife and kids loved it too.  I don't want anyone to be discouraged by my comments.  This is a wonderful recipe with wonderful flavour.  I found dozens of recipes on the forums but this one seemed so simple and well explained.  I WILL make it again but like I said a few times I'll simply change the salt


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## mneeley490 (Nov 17, 2013)

Can you describe how the flavor differs from pastrami? From what I've seen, the spices and technique seem very similar.


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## michelcoco (Nov 18, 2013)

you are correct with the measurement

                                                             michel


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## bagbeard (Nov 26, 2013)

have been curing for a 10 days. need to cut short by a  day.  smoke tomorrow. think i will continue this in a new thread. will still post results here.


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## bagbeard (Nov 27, 2013)

here it is

(also a link to the full process more or less: http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/153052/montreal-smoked-meat#post_1097562 )













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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 26, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 27, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 27, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 27, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 26, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 27, 2013






slice pics tomorrow


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## michelcoco (Nov 28, 2013)

oak


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## bagbeard (Nov 28, 2013)

here it is:













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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 28, 2013


















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__ bagbeard
__ Nov 28, 2013






the taste was awesome but too salty.  certain sections not as salty as others but overall too salty for my taste.  still ate it constantly while slicing.

the fattier parts of the brisket were the saltiest. the colour was perfect.  will definitely try again.  not sure if i should use less salt as that may effect curing or rinse longer with more frequent water changes.

i like the flavour better than pastrami.  just a different blend of spices.  my wife hates cloves but loved this. 

until next try.....


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## jspence (Dec 2, 2013)

I was wondering how long you can keep this, I know cured meats will store for a while but how long do you recommend keeping it the the refrigerator?

I was lucky enough to try bagbeards and it was amazing,  I will attempt to duplicate his results.


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## michelcoco (Dec 3, 2013)

they say up to 15days in the fridg.


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## jspence (Dec 5, 2013)

MICHELCOCO said:


> they say up to 15days in the fridg.


Thanks, think I'll start today.


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## michelcoco (Dec 6, 2013)

instacure measurments 1tsp per 5 bls of meat

                                                                              Michel      be careful with that stuf


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## ak1 (Dec 6, 2013)

mneeley490 said:


> Can you describe how the flavor differs from pastrami? From what I've seen, the spices and technique seem very similar.


Typically, from Wikipedia;

Although the preparation methods may be similar, Montreal smoked meat is cured in seasoning with more cracked peppercorns  and aromatic spices, such as coriander, and significantly less sugar than New York pastrami. Montreal smoked meat is made with brisket, while pastrami is more commonly made with the navel/plate cut.[sup][1][/sup]  The meat is typically served in the form of a rye bread  sandwich  slathered with yellow mustard. While some Montreal smoked meat is brine-cured like corned beef, with spices applied later, many smoked meat establishments prefer dry-curing directly with salt and spices.


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## mneeley490 (Dec 6, 2013)

Interesting. I've never tried dry-curing a brisket before. Thanks AK1!


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## bagbeard (Dec 6, 2013)

worth trying for sure. The wait is well rewarded


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## ak1 (Dec 6, 2013)

I thought about making it myself, but I can buy Dunns locally. I need to figure out the cost/benefit ratio for myself.


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## bagbeard (Dec 7, 2013)

don't make it just to save money, make it for the fun and experience


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## magslam (Dec 11, 2013)

MICHELCOCO said:


> swartz smoke meat is considered the best smoke meat in the world.
> 
> look it up on the net.


You bet. I lived in Montreal in the mid 1980's, on a working contract with IBM. Schwartz on St Laurent street was a must visit and, well, then it becomes an addiction. I do miss it. 

http://schwartzsdeli.com/ca/en/


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## holygreek (Sep 30, 2014)

HI GUYS, I'm new to the forum and want to join in on the action.

I wll be making my second attempt to make montreal deli smoked meat.

I live near by shwartz's deli so i smell it almost every day.

I have a camp chef smokevault smoker and have made a full brisket one time before which came out great, as per 10 friends that shared it with me.

I will be startng the process tomorrow and will post updates of how it goes and what we used.

I too have heard of pink salt or prague powder but could not get it here in montreal i was told.

I have gone to a local spice market and they said they have something else that does the same thing. i will try and get the name and share with the community.


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## terrenum (Oct 2, 2014)

I've been searching for a recipe for ethe last few weeks and all the one that seems to have great reviews and great feedback are similar to this one. I currently have a brisket brining but i have used the prague powder #1 (instacure) based on recommended health warnings and what is written on the jar. Your recipe and the other ones are calling for twice the required/recommended volume. The recommended volume is one teaspoon for every 5 pounds. If your brisket is 14 pounds, it calls for 3 teaspoon which is 1 tb spoon.... 
How did you come up with 2 Tb ?
http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/lit_rev/cure_smoke_cure.html

http://www.cooksinfo.com/prague-powder


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## gibsorz (Oct 7, 2014)

I do montreal smoked meat every couple of months.  Here is what I do, the below measurements are per 5 lbs. 

1 tsp cure #1
1/4 cup coarse kosher salt
3.5 oz black pepper
2 oz sugar
1.75 oz coriander
1 tbspn bay leaves (ground)
1 tbspn cloves

I spread that onto the beisket (which I normally have it trimmed to 15 lbs), into a ziploc bag (I use the XL clothing CAC bag and I vac seal it) for 12 days, flipping periodically (I do daily). 

Remove from bag, soak in a water bath for 2-3 hrs changing water as necessary (if in sink or smallish cooler every half hour). Dry thoroughly. Cover top with a generous 2:1 (by mass) mixture of pepper:coriander. Allow to rest overnight in fridge. 

Remove 2 hours before you plan to apply heat. Allow to rest on counter with fan for 1hr. Place in smoker fat cap down.  Apply 1hr of cold smoke (optional) add heat (I use 230-240). Smoke to 130 IT, foil, bring IT up to 175 and pull from smoker. Allow to come to room temp and refrigerate overnight. 

Steam for 3 hours prior to service. Shave off really thin slices, serve with rye bread and yellow mustard. 

Now I think Montreal smoked meat is traditionally done in a bribe, but for space the dry brine works well. It Doesn't quite taste like Schwartz' or smoked meat Pete because it is better.  Even some of the great montreal establishments take short cuts in the meat preparation and inject the brine. Also, almost none (if not none) of the montreal establishments still smoke the "smoked meat". Why, because time is money, they will sell just as much MSM whether they smoke it or not, there is always a line up that goes out the door.


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## bladebuilder (Oct 7, 2014)

Hey guys. Being new here, I am a little unsure of when and what to post. In my research to nail an authentic Montreal Smoked meat, I found this recipe. Now I have also found many other recipes that are along the lines of a guess at the recipe, but "added this and that" in an effort to get it right. I have a lot of family from Quebec, so am striving to keep it real. This is the closest thing I found to Montreal Smoked meat. The second recipe is spelled out with great detail. Broken down by weight, and percentages. I cant take credit for these recipes, but wanted to share them.

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This recipe has been tested and was found to be the closest thing to the original which has been around for hundreds of years. Originally out of eastern Europe, the recipe has been a well guarded secret passed on from generation to generation, and the Montreal version is straight out from the classic version. The recipe was reconstructed from scratch after many hours of research and testing. It took several trials to get it right. This is not Pastrami or corned beef, much better.

ENJOY!

*Ingredients for Brine (For Approx. 5 Lb. Beef Brisket):*

• 2 Liters Water
• 4 Tbsp. Kosher Salt
• 1 Tbsp. Dextrose
• 1 tsp. InstaCure #1

• 3 Cloves Garlic (crushed)
• 4 Tbsp. Pickling Spices

*Ingredients for Montreal Spice Mix*

• 5 Tbsp. Peppercorns

• 1 Tbsp. Dill Seed

• 1 tsp. Coriander Seed

• 1 Tbsp. Mustard Seed

• 1 tsp. Celery Seed

• 1 tsp. Fennel Seed

• 1/2 Tbsp. Garlic Powder

• 1/2 Tbsp. Onion Powder

First, inject the Brine Mixture (keeping the ingredients in RED aside for the moment) into the Brisket, adding approximately 15-20% to its original weight. Now crush the garlic cloves and add them to the remaining brine. Rub the Brisket with the Pickling Spices. Cover the Brisket with the brine mixture and place in refrigerator for 2-3 days. Turn brisket over daily. Rinse Brisket and soak for 1 hour in cold water, changing the water twice.

Toast first 6 ingredients over medium heat (keeping the ingredients in BLUE  aside for the moment) until fragrant, about 4 minutes. Let cool then grind coarsely. Add the remaining two ingredients. Rub Spices into Brisket and allow it to cure covered in mix for 12 hours in fridge. Smoke with Apple Wood for 1-1/2 hours at 165F on a rack in a pan with apple juice and water, slow cook in oven with more apple juice and water in the pan to an internal meat temp. of 165. Foil and let rest in fridge.

To reheat before serving, wrap tightly in foil and place in oven or steam for a short time. Stack meat paper thin on rye bread with yellow mustard, serve with French Fries and a Kosher Dill Pickle.

Here is another that I would like to give a whirl...

Equipment

A kitchen scale.
Ziplock Big Bags XXL. Available at Wal-Mart.
A steamer or sous vide immersion circulator. This could be a stovetop steamer, rice steamer, roasting pan with a rack for the oven, or a large bamboo steamer. This is for finishing the meat, usually 3 hours. Note the sous vide approach is based on the method in Modernist Cuisine.
An outdoor smoker. I use the 18.5" Weber Smokey Mountain Cooker. Smokers lead to better flavour, but using the oven will do in a pinch, since most MSM these days at deli's isn't wood smoked.
A digital probe thermometer (optional) For inserting into the meat - it's the reliable way to check doneness reliably.
A moderately cold refrigerator with room or a cold room. 38-40F or 3C-4.4C. Try not to go colder than 37F/2.5C.
Ingredients

These are hypothetical quantities based on ratios from the initial cut of meat. I'm using the Modernist Cuisine format due to its ease of reading once you know the recipe; details on these ingredients below.

For the Dry Cure

Weight - Description - Ratio

5 kg [11 lb] - Beef Brisket, with fat cap - 100%
0.2 kg [7.04 oz] - Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt - 4%
Note: Dry cure salt guideline is 1 lb per 25 lb of meat
0.0125 kg [0.44 oz] - Curing (pink) salt - 0.25%
Note: Assuming pink salt is 6.25% nitrate - the guideline is 1 oz per 25 lb of meat
0.1 kg [3.52 oz] - White Sugar - 2%
Note: Adjust sugar to taste -- down to 0.6%, up to 2.7%; MSM usually has less sugar than pastrami
0.03 kg [1.18 oz] - Ground Black Peppercorns - 0.67%
0.03 kg [1.18 oz] - Ground Coriander Seeds - 0.67%
0.025 kg [0.88 oz] - Mustard Seeds - 0.5%
0.01 kg [0.35 oz] - Garlic powder - 0.2%
0.01 kg [0.35 oz] - Ground Cinnamon - 0.2%
0.01 kg [0.35 oz] - Fennel Seed - 0.2%
0.005 kg [0.18 oz] - Ground Cloves - 0.1%
0.0025 kg [0.09 oz] - Chile Pepper Flakes - 0.05%
0.0025 kg [0.09 oz] - Ground Bay Leaves - 0.05%

For the Rub

Weight - Description - Ratio
0.36 kg [12.7 oz] - Ground Black Peppercorns - 7.2%
0.21 kg [7.4 oz] - Ground Coriander Seeds - 4.2%
Note: Pepper to Coriander ratio is usually 2:1, this one adds a bit more Coriander
0.1875 kg [6.6 oz] - White Sugar - 3.75%
Note: Adjust sugar to taste -- down to 0%, up to 7.5%; MSM should have less sugar than pastrami
0.05 kg [1.76 oz] - Garlic powder - 1%
0.0325 kg [1.14 oz] - Chile Pepper Flakes- 0.65%

For Smoking
1. Charcoal - lump or briquettes, depending on your smoker, enough for 4-5 hours of low heat (250F)
2. Smoke wood - about 4 to 6 fist-sized chunks of fruit wood (apple/cherry), pecan or maple. Hickory can be mixed in but sparingly (say 2 pieces out of 6). MSM traditionally used maple but in modern times isn't smoked at all. I like pecan.

For Serving
1. Rye bread
2. Mustard
3. Pickles (optional)
4. A large sharp knife
5. A large fork

Dry Cure Procedure
1. Trim some fat off the brisket, particularly on sides and top. Leave at least 1/4 to 1/2" of the fat cap on the bottom.
2. Rub the garlic powder on the brisket.
3. Combine the kosher salt with the curing salt, being mindful of meat to salt ratios. Rub the brisket with the salt mixture. If there's excess, throw it in the bottom of the ziplock bag.
4. Grind the remaining dry cure ingredients and mix together in a large bowl. Rub the meat with the dry cure spices. There shouldn't be much excess, but it can go in the ziplock.
5. Place the brisket in the bottom of the ziplock back, try to ensure any excess that was in the bag is evenly distributed on the meat.
6. Squeeze the air out of the bag and close the zipper; store the ziplock bag in a cold room or refrigerator, around 38-40F (not super cold).
7. Overhaul (turn over) the brisket every 12 hours or so, for 7 days. Smaller briskets can take less time (roughly, I'd estimate a 6 lb brisket for 5 days, a 15 lb brisket for 9 days).
8. After the cure, take the brisket out of the bag, and rinse off the curing spices.
9. Fill a large sink with water and soak the brisket for 3 hours, changing water every 1/2 hour. Pat the brisket dry with paper towels.

Rub and Smoke Procedure
1. Grind the rub ingredients and mix together in a large bowl. Rub the meat with the dry rub.
2. Optionally, wrap the brisket in ziplock again and let it sit in the dry rub in a fridge or cold room for 6-8 hours. (I skip this sometimes)
3. Light the smoker with the smoke wood, to 225-250F
4. Smoke the brisket until it reaches 165F internal temperature - around 4 to 5 hours, depending on the brisket size and temperature of your smoker
5. Remove from smoker, and either proceed with steaming, or wrap in foil, then ziplock or plastic wrap, and refrigerate until ready to eat

Steaming and Serving
1. Carve the fatty (thicker, point end) of the brisket to separate it from the leaner (flat end) meat, and carve again into smaller chunks to fit in your preferred steamer.
2. If using a stovetop steamer, get the water steaming, and keep on low. Oven roasting pans should be filled with water up to the rack and the oven set to 200F. If using sous-vide, set your immersion circulator for 140F.
3. Steam for 3 hours, until the brisket is fork tender.
4. If using sous vide, you have two options. (a) Vaccuum pack your chunk and cook for up to 72 hours. I found this didn't work as well as straight steaming, hence … (b) The modernist cuisine way calls for putting an equal weight of the pastrami brine (water would be fine) in the bag with the pastrami, seal it (this may be difficult with non-chamber sealers), and cooking for 72 hours. I have not personally tried this approach yet.
5. Once tender, grab the chunk with a large fork, carve brisket chunks against the grain with a sharp knife, serve on rye bread with mustard.

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## gibsorz (Oct 8, 2014)

Nice blade builder these look good. Have you tried either of these recipes? (Also if you aren't the maker, are you able to source where you got it from for me!)

the first recipe looks good. But Fennel and Garlic are not Commonly used spices for Eastern European food. If you add in the fact that traditionally, this was the "poor persons" food, it is very unlikely these "fancy" spices were used in the original or traditional. They may very well use them in today's product creating a greater product than the originals. I am against injecting the brisket because there is no way that was how it used to be done. That is a step away from the original that I just can't take, a definite reduction in quality when you inject vs brine or dry brine it. Just like there is a reduction in quality when you decide to only oven then steam vs smoke then steam like even the greatest of smoked meat joints now do.  

I will be trying recipe #1 without injecting next time I make montreal smoked meat (December). I will use the fennel and garlic and see what it gives me. Also by not injecting and the curing process taking longer (up to 2 weeks), you get a more complex flavour from the added spices in the cure than you would by injecting it and only curing for a couple of days. 

The second recipe also looks good...the curing time definitely seams to be off a little bit.  I cured a 12 lb brisket for 9 days once and there was about 1/2 an inch in the middle that remained uncured. My general rule is take the thickness in inches at its thickest part, multiply that by 2, then add 2 for bare minimum. Add an extra day or two to be safe. You can't overcure it. So a brisket that is 4 inches thick at its thickest part will cure for
4*2 = 8+2 = 10. If you are curing just a flat I could see 7 days working, but on a full packer that is above 10 lbs, I don't see you finding a brisket that comes in under 10 days.

Also final word of advice, don't let the meat get too hot for an IT...if you get to the 190....or 200 degree area, you will get pulled smoked meat mush...still very good, just not what you are aiming for


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## bladebuilder (Oct 8, 2014)

I have tried the first recipe and to be honest,thought it really, really good! I agree with you on the injecting. Didn't do that, also cured for 10 days. Not by design, but because of life. :) Nothing goes as planned! Also rinsed/soaked for 3 hours with a few water changes. Final IT was 168 on the last one. The steaming I am still playing with. On a rack in a roaster filled with water, covered loosely with foil gave results that I will use again, until Someone else says they did something that worked better.

I will try to find the original source on line, and will PM you. I think they were from a different forum, and believe posting outside links are frowned upon here. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## gibsorz (Oct 8, 2014)

Bladebuilder said:


> I will try to find the original source on line, and will PM you. I think they were from a different forum, and believe posting outside links are frowned upon here. Correct me if I am wrong.



Everywhere I have been involved tells you to source your information...maybe here it is different I am pretty new too. 

 The first recipe is very similar to mine except,
Instead of pickling spices I used bay leaf, pepper, cloves and coriander. I also didn't use the garlic. Other than that it is the same. To steam I take 2 large foil Turkey roastin pans, put the brisket on a roasting rack and close it in the 2 roasting racks. Works good. Will try with foil next time.


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## terrenum (Oct 12, 2014)

I pretty much followed the recipe posted at the beginning of this tread but used less pink salt. I have used 1tps per 5lbs of meat and it was plenty i believe. The meat was nice and pink all the way through. Here are some pics. Next time i will let it soak 3 hours to remove the salt; it was still pretty salty. But it is delicious. As good if not better than schwartz and others. Definitely in the zone in terms of taste for montreal smoked meat. Thanks guys for this awesome recipe.













image.jpg



__ terrenum
__ Oct 12, 2014


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## lmtxprss (Oct 13, 2014)

For the record, you can buy the schwartz rub directly from the Deli. We were there nearly a year ago. it was $10/lb. Going again in January and I'm going to buy a pound to test against these recipes! Thanks everyone, interesting read!


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## gibsorz (Oct 13, 2014)

I think it is 11.95 now…I wonder if there is a lab that it could be sent to in order to get official percentages of ingredients. I will be getting a pound in December


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## senseirogue (Aug 5, 2015)

That sounds like a very good recipe for Montreal Smoked Meat.  I was just wondering though, if you can't get maple chunks, to put in your smoker; what would be a good substitute?


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## michelcoco (Aug 6, 2015)

oak  would be ok but maple is the best.


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## michelcoco (Aug 6, 2015)

if you do let me know please


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## yavin17 (Sep 9, 2015)

I made this for my wife for her birthday.  She's from Montreal and took me to Schwartz's Deli last summer.  I have to say it turned out fantastic.













2015-08-12%2021.45.05.jpg



__ yavin17
__ Sep 9, 2015


















2015-08-13%2019.13.24.jpg



__ yavin17
__ Sep 9, 2015


















2015-08-13%2019.48.47.jpg



__ yavin17
__ Sep 9, 2015


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## techplus (Oct 8, 2016)

I have been there many times, INCREDIBLE smoked meat. Paul.


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## trevor watkins (Mar 9, 2017)

Hey there Martin, in your post "There's a recipe and detailed method in "The Mile End Cookbook: Redefining Jewish Comfort Food from Hash to Hamantaschen." written by Noah Bernamoff and Rae Bernamoff, displaced Montrealers with a deli in New York. The cure should be adjusted to the correct amount." 

...was your comment "Insta-Cure #1 is the one that should be used." meant for the the above, which they mention is 1 tbs plus 2 teaspoon of pink curing salt in the book?

thx eh!


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## Oli (Aug 31, 2018)

Hi everyone, noob here!

I'm going to attempt my first ever smoked meat soon. I was wondering if anyone could confirm the correct amount of Insta-Cure #1 and kosher salt for the cure (per pounds would be great). The discussion was a bit overwhelming for a novice like me. References would be great too.

Thanks!


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## Smokeman! (Jul 25, 2019)

I just picked up The Mile End cookbook, I’m a Montreal and so is the author, I know this recipe is the real deal and the closest I’ll get to making Schwartz's at home.

Couple of things I didn’t like about his recipe was that the author said to use 4 pounds of oak wood chips soaked.

The whole soaking thing has been debunked so I’m surprised to see him mention it, why chips instead of chunks, and 4 pounds seems very excessive.

Can anyone clarify how much of chunks I should use, and he specifically calls for Oak, I can order Oak but are there substitutes that I can use that will be exactly the same? I’m fine ordering it if I have to but it would be good to know if there are alternatives I can use that will give the exact taste.

I will be cooking this on a Kamado Joe Big.


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