# Danger zone info



## homebrew & bbq (Nov 5, 2007)

After this weekend's smoke, I did some web research on "The Danger Zone" for food. It gets mentioned a lot here (and rightly so), but if there are specifics about time in the danger zone, I missed them.

So here are a couple of sites I found to be helpful for my understanding.

http://www.netwellness.com/healthtop...son/danger.cfm
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/...angerzone.html
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...Food/index.asp


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## fatback joe (Nov 5, 2007)

Here is a little more specifics.

The FDA Food Code recommendation no more than a cumulative 4 hours in the danger zone. Use a calibrated thermometer to chart time and temperature based upon your menu for: cold holding (41 F ), hot holding (140 F), cooking (based on the food), reheating (165 F), and cooling. Rapid cooling of hot foods (leftovers) or foods cooked several hours advance of service is a special challenge, which allows a six hour two stage cooling method (140 F to 70 F in 2 hours & 70 F to 41 F in 4 hours). 

http://www.foodservice.com/food_safety/fb29.cfm


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## homebrew & bbq (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks, Joe! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Anyone else have additional info? Maybe we can get it all together in one thread.


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## twistertail (Nov 5, 2007)

It says when roasting meat dont go any lower than 325 in the oven, so how is we all do 225 in the smoker with no problems?


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## deejaydebi (Nov 5, 2007)

Nice post Terry thanks!

twistertail - we're smoking not roasting


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## ajthepoolman (Nov 5, 2007)

The carcinogens in the smoke eat the bacteria!


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## homebrew & bbq (Nov 9, 2007)

With lots of folks joining SMF, I think it might be helpful to put some kind of sticky for food safety or maybe even a new area of the forum, just so that kind of information is readily accessible, even to the people who browse and lurk but never join.

What do y'all think?


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## pigcicles (Nov 9, 2007)

I wouldn't be opposed to a forum category that is strictly Food Safety. Such as the Danger Zone along with correct safe food temperatures, food storage / handling practices, etc. 

I think that I would prefer to see it locked down to keep it from getting bogged down with personal input or idealisms. I feel that just a sticky would get lost in the crowd of other stickies and be just another post.


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## richtee (Nov 9, 2007)

Twist... I have read that the main trouble here is the SURFACE of the meat, not the meat's interior. There are more stringent rules for ground meat, because you basically distribute anything on the outside to the inside. And poultry has 2 "outsides". It's the surfaces of the meat that pose the real bacteria threat. Get and keep THOSE up past 140 quickly. And also remember that most rubs contain salt among other chemicals, that inhibit bacteria to some extent, even killing some before the little buggers can do their "Dirty Deeds". <I LOVE old AC/DC>.

Can anyone here confirm or deny this info? PLEASE chime in..it's in everyone's interest!

On edit: Kinda makes the "spatchcocking" a more attractive technique to me...


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## peculiarmike (Nov 9, 2007)

I agree - just give me the FACTS, the Straight Skinny, not what grandma said or thought. Facts require research and verification.
It would be a good category to have available.


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## richtee (Nov 9, 2007)

OK..I'll try to dig up where I got the info from my last post here. Blind me with SCIENCE!


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## fatback joe (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah, that is correct.  Haven't taken the time to dig up a link, but that is the basic reason that some resturants that will serve you a rare steak won't give you a hamburger that is less then medium.   

Grinding takes the evils from the outside and (potentially) puts them on the inside.  That is why most meat recalls are ground meat products.


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## richtee (Nov 9, 2007)

OK   here:
http://www.northwoodssmokeofmn.com/safety.htm


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## fatback joe (Nov 9, 2007)

When meat is ground, more of the meat is exposed to the harmful bacteria. Bacteria multiply rapidly in the "Danger Zone" â€” temperatures between 40 and 140 Â°F. To keep bacterial levels low, store ground beef at 40 Â°F or less and use within 2 days, or freeze. To destroy harmful bacteria, cook ground beef to 160 Â°F. 

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...fety/index.asp


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## hawgheaven (Nov 9, 2007)

I agree PigCicles... kinda like the WYNTK area, where a non-postable page pops up. It wouldn't be hard to do...


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## ron50 (Nov 9, 2007)

Mike:

I agree that facts are good, and that opinions are just that, one person's point of view. The trouble is that different people don't value some information even when it is backed by studies and research.

Nothing wrong with voicing one's opinion as long as we are open to other people's as well and keep the facts and the opinions straight.

Of course, that is just my opinion


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 9, 2011)

Greetings all, In addition to being a Chef, I am also a Certified Servsafe Instructor...This means that I teach Sanitation and Food Safety to future Chefs. I can 100% verify what Richtee has posted. Bacteria is only on the outside of meat and salty rubs and/or acidic marinades if they don't kill the little buggers will inhibit growth while the meat is being smoked or cooked to a temp above 140*F. As a matter of fact restaurants like Outback, Texas Roadhouse and many others Roast their Prime Rib to 130 to140*F and holds it there all night long so it can be served Med-Rare.   BUT!!!  As stated above, grinding meat mixes the bacteria all through the meat. Things like Fatties, Meatloaf and Sausage, must be kept cold then heated above 140*F in under 4 hours. There is one EXCEPTION to the harmful bacteria on the outside theory...The parasite that causes Trichinosis, although no longer found in Pork (145-150*F Pink Pork is yummy), has reared it's ugly head in WILD BEAR MEAT!... So hunter's beware, Bear meat should be cooked to 150*F to be absolutely safe.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, feel free to PM me or E-mail me at [email protected]

I hope this helps clear things up...JJ


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## arnie (Jun 9, 2011)

While this is an old thread the information is still pertinent.  

Thanks for bumping it up


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## sqwib (Jun 9, 2011)

Richtee said:


> Twist... I have read that the main trouble here is the SURFACE of the meat, not the meat's interior. There are more stringent rules for ground meat, because you basically distribute anything on the outside to the inside. And poultry has 2 "outsides". It's the surfaces of the meat that pose the real bacteria threat. Get and keep THOSE up past 140 quickly. And also remember that most rubs contain salt among other chemicals, that inhibit bacteria to some extent, even killing some before the little buggers can do their "Dirty Deeds". <I LOVE old AC/DC>.
> 
> Can anyone here confirm or deny this info? PLEASE chime in..it's in everyone's interest!
> 
> On edit: Kinda makes the "spatchcocking" a more attractive technique to me...


I can add too it a bit;

Steaks cut from a process using Meat Glue need to be treated like ground meat and cooked to 165°


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## SmokinAl (Jun 9, 2011)

Arnie x2


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 9, 2011)

I saw a post where a member tossed an entire Brisket because his smoker failed to bring it up beyond 140*F after 8.5 hours. Just thought I might clarify the 140*F in 4hr guideline a bit....JJ


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## DanMcG (Jun 9, 2011)

Ok just to add a bit to the good info posted here already. If it's an intact muscle like the brisket mentioned above and it's  not injected,  then the 40°-140° rule pertains to the outer 1/2" of meat I think. (or is it outer 1/4"? little help here old timers  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






   )

Actual internal temp doesn't matter in the 4 hour rule, only that you kill the buggers on the outside in 4 hours and of course get the inside  up to safe eating temp when finished.


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## alblancher (Jun 9, 2011)

Chef Jimmy  I have recommended that meat be tossed when,as mentioned by Dan, the outside of the meat may not have reached 140 within 4 hours.  If someone goes to bed with meat on the smoker and 5 hours later wakes up to the smoker out of fuel, chamber temp below 140 and internal temp below 140 I would recommend that they toss it.  Especially if serving to others.  If I am going to eat it I may take my chances but if grandma is going to eat it, no way.

We have had those discussions many times on this forum and it comes down to rolling the dice and how the meat was handled before it hit the smoker. 

Glad to have another safety educated resource on board  Hope we don't overwork you.

Al


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## Bearcarver (Jun 9, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Chef Jimmy  I have recommended that meat be tossed when,as mentioned by Dan, the outside of the meat may not have reached 140 within 4 hours.  If someone goes to bed with meat on the smoker and 5 hours later wakes up to the smoker out of fuel, chamber temp below 140 and internal temp below 140 I would recommend that they toss it.  Especially if serving to others.  If I am going to eat it I may take my chances but if grandma is going to eat it, no way.
> 
> We have had those discussions many times on this forum and it comes down to rolling the dice and how the meat was handled before it hit the smoker.
> 
> ...


What Al said !

Bear


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 11, 2011)

Hello Al, when it comes to the safety of my family or customers, When In Doubt Throw It Out...

I am new to smoking techniques...Is there a situation where you would put a Brisket in a cold smoker and then set the smoke temp to 140*F and keep it there for many hours?

With all due respect, I humbly propose...If all is normal and the smoker is up to say 225*F, for the internal portion of the meat to get to 140*F the outer would have to have been heated to 225*F, or very close to it. The energy would then be conducted to the center of the meat. At 225* this would take several hours, so even if you discovered the smoker out of gas 5 hours later, if the meat is at 140* or even lower, the exterior had to get hot enough to kill anything before they lived long enough to multiply or give off dangerous levels of toxin.


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## arnie (Jun 11, 2011)

SQWIB said:


> I can add too it a bit;
> 
> Steaks cut from a process using Meat Glue need to be treated like ground meat and cooked to 165°


Very good point.

I was surprized when I first read about the practice of glueing meat.

If it weren't for the fine folks on this forum I most likely would not know about glueing, Thanks


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## alblancher (Jun 11, 2011)

Chef

Many of us use wood and charcoal so there is little control over temps
We need to monitor our smokers closely.  If the smoker is left unattended and the temps are out of the safety range when you return you  have no way of knowing how long what has been where.  In those cases I would probably recommend tossing.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 12, 2011)

Thank you, Al, for your knowledge and responses. I imagine there can be circumstances where, for one reason or another, you are away from your equipment for an extended period of time and things can go horribly wrong. The resulting temperature reading would be unreliable and we should err on the side of caution and discard the product. Here's hoping that ALL our smokes are without incidence and the results bring joy to us and those we share the fruits of our labor with....Hmm...sounds like the makings of a prayer to the Q Gods!

Take care...JJ


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## alblancher (Jun 12, 2011)

Chef

Look forward to reading many more of your posts.  I have been accused of being a safety Nazi.

Al


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