# FYI MTQ



## BGKYSmoker (May 8, 2012)

This post is not intended to stop using MTQ.

I seen where someone wanted to mix cure #1 with MTQ to make cure #2....BAD IDEA

Morton’s Tender Quick[emoji]8482[/emoji] contains 0.5 sodium nitrite, 0.5 sodium nitrate, salt, sugar, and propylene glycol (for brined meats). They make no mention of how much extra salt, sugar, and propylene glycol.

What Is Propylene Glycol And Why You Should Avoid It. It is is a chemical found in personal care products that acts as a penetration enhancer that keeps products from melting in heat and/or freezing when it is cold. It is found in items such as shampoo, conditioner, soap, acne treatment, moisturizer, toothpaste, deodorant, nail polish, mascara; basically anything you could possibly use on your body, propylene glycol is in it. But why should you avoid propylene glycol?

For starters it alters the structure of the skin by allowing chemicals to penetrate deep beneath it while increasing their ability to reach the blood stream. Sounds lovely, right? So even if propylene glycol was good for you, it’s main job is to help any other chemicals you come in contact with reach your bloodstream. However, there is even more to it than just that…

How Toxic is Propylene Glycol? According to the Environmental Working Group, propylene glycol can cause a whole host of problems. It is rated a 4 by them, which is categorized as a “moderate” health issue. It has been shown to be linked to cancer, developmental/reproductive issues, allergies/immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity and endocrine disruption. It has been found to provoke skin irritation and sensitization in humans as low as 2% concentration, while the industry review panel recommends cosmetics can contain up to 50% of the substance.

How to Spot Propylene Glycol
When looking at ingredient lists, you can look for names like 1,2-Dihydroxypropane; 2-Hydroxypropanol; Methylethy Glycol; 1,2-Propanediol; Propane-1,2-Diol.

I would in no way ever recommend mixing the two together for any reason whatsoever. Curing “pink salt” is not so expensive that it cannot be purchased in one or five pound amounts without having to pinch pennies by purchasing an “envelope” of the stuff. It doesn’t spoil or weaken if kept out of the light and away from moisture. On the “Sunday afternoon” he ran out, he should have placed the meat into the refrigerator and ordered some on Monday by Fed-Ex “overnight” or some other light-speed carrier. Really, shouldn’t any sausage maker have plenty of cure on hand if he is serious about the hobby?


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## ritamcd (May 8, 2012)

I have all 3 on hand .. would never attempt to mix them .. Great info tho .. Thanks for the heads up


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## alblancher (May 8, 2012)

I found a site that quoted the amount of salt in TQ at 97%.  Sugar and Propylene Glycol make up the remaining 2%

I don't recall their source or math but at the time I read it I was comfortable with the numbers.

As I gain experience curing meat I appreciate the ability to control the amounts of ingredients in my cure mixes.


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## chef jimmyj (May 8, 2012)

alblancher said:


> I found a site that quoted the amount of salt in TQ at 97%.  Sugar and Propylene Glycol make up the remaining 2%
> 
> I don't recall their source or math but at the time I read it I was comfortable with the numbers.
> 
> As I gain experience curing meat I appreciate the ability to control the amounts of ingredients in my cure mixes.


 Hey Al, Do you remember this bit of info?...JJ

 FWIW, I was told by a Morton rep many years ago that Tender Quick is approximately 79% salt, 20% sugar, 1/2% sodium nitrite, 1/2% sodium nitrate with a touch of Propylene Glycol.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/117802/getting-to-know-morton-tender-quick


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## smokinhusker (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for the info Rick and Al. I took chemistry but there's no way I'd mix the two...


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## diggingdogfarm (May 8, 2012)

I'm not advocating the mixing of TQ with other cures, but the propylene glycol hype is kind of crazy.
It's an approved food additive very low in toxicity, certainly far less toxic than nitrite and nitrate!


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## alblancher (May 8, 2012)

PM sent Jimmy  with 20% sugar could that have been their sugar cure?


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## chef jimmyj (May 9, 2012)

Now that makes sense! That's why I frequently push for clarification on cure safety matters...JJ


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

Apparently the formulation has changed since what I was told by the rep many long years ago.
I recently found out that all of Morton's cures are 95% salt and 2% sugar. I have confirmation. It has become just like anything that's been cheapened in recent years, salt is a lot cheaper than sugar! 
Yes, the propylene glycol hype is BS, there's a tiny amount added to act as a free-flow agent.
It's really a non-argument since some Cure#1 and #2, if not all of it, also contains propylene glycol.

Just the facts!!!


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## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Lets see i have 5 lbs each of cure 1&2 and no where in the label does it state propylene glycol.


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## alblancher (May 9, 2012)

We all agree knowledge is power.  When reading labels if you wish to avoid propylene glycol you can.  When I did a quick search for it there are maybe half a dozen names for the stuff.   If I remember properly if an ingredient is below a certain percentage and is not considered an active ingredient then it doesn't have to be included on the label.   Guess I have to research what an active ingredient is and what that percentage is.


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

Things aren't always labeled as they should be, there's almost without a doubt some type of free-flow agent added.
Notice that they probably don't include the coloring in the ingredient listing either (I know many don't).
Ask for the MSDS sheets.


Here are a couple sellers who list the ingredients properly......

http://www.myspicesage.com/prague-p...cd10aba8411ef~592~Prague Powder Number 1~2.00

http://www.americanspice.com/prague-powder-no-1-pink-curing-salt/


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

alblancher said:


> When reading labels if you wish to avoid propylene glycol you can.




Only if the label (listing of ingredients) is complete and correct! :biggrin:


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## daveomak (May 9, 2012)

SausageBoy, Evening..... nepas was pointing out _some concerns _associated with "propylene glycol"......  Are you saying he is misinforming us ????   Just wondering what your point was....    Dave

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


SausageBoy said:


> Apparently the formulation has changed since what I was told by the rep many long years ago.
> I recently found out that all of Morton's cures are 95% salt and 2% sugar. I have confirmation. It has become just like anything that's been cheapened in recent years, salt is a lot cheaper than sugar!
> *Yes, the propylene glycol hype is BS, there's a tiny amount added to act as a free-flow agent.*
> It's really a non-argument since some Cure#1 and #2, if not all of it, also contains propylene glycol.
> ...


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nepas previous post excerpts......

What Is Propylene Glycol And Why You Should Avoid It.* It is is a chemical found in personal care products that acts as a penetration enhancer *that keeps products from melting in heat and/or freezing when it is cold. It is found in items such as shampoo, conditioner, soap, acne treatment, moisturizer, toothpaste, deodorant, nail polish, mascara; basically anything you could possibly use on your body, propylene glycol is in it. But why should you avoid propylene glycol?

For starters* it alters the structure of the skin by allowing chemicals to penetrate deep beneath it while increasing their ability to reach the blood stream.* Sounds lovely, right? So even if propylene glycol was good for you,* it’s main job is to help any other chemicals you come in contact with reach your bloodstream.* However, there is even more to it than just that…

How Toxic is Propylene Glycol? According to the Environmental Working Group, propylene glycol can cause a whole host of problems. It is rated a 4 by them, which is categorized as a *“moderate” health issue*. It has been shown to be *linked to cancer*, *developmental/reproductive issues, allergies/immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity and endocrine disruption.* It has been found to* provoke skin irritation and sensitization in humans as low as 2% concentration*, while the industry review panel recommends cosmetics can contain up to 50% of the substance.

How to Spot Propylene Glycol
When looking at ingredient lists, you can look for *names like 1,2-Dihydroxypropane; 2-Hydroxypropanol; Methylethy Glycol; 1,2-Propanediol; Propane-1,2-Diol.*


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

It's an approved food additive, like anything, it has issues, there isn't a food or additive that I know of that doesn't have some issues.

It is, however, recognized as safe by the FDA:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title21-vol6/xml/CFR-2009-title21-vol6-sec582-1666.xml

What was posted above was lifted from an extremist website that promotes a lot of hype.

http://thegoodhuman.com/2009/03/31/what-is-propylene-glycol-and-why-you-should-avoid-it/

I'm not going to argue about this, but take just one example....*."It has been shown to be linked to cancer."*
Here's a report that supports the fact that PG isn't considered carcinogenic......
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/57-55-6.pdf

As I said above, it may be difficult to avoid the stuff if you are afraid of it and use cures.


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## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

SB

Take it how you will.

I use PG in my radiator and tanning rattle snake hides............Guess what i found posted and quoted for info was taken out of content AS INFO and re routed as BS.

If you beleive that the FDA, USDA, BATF and other Gov agencies are bible then hey thats you....Oh and the checks in the mail.


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

I use nitrate to desolve tree stumps and salt to kill multiflora rose bushes! 
Oh, and for years we've used propylene glycol to treat cows with ketosis!
I have no fear of any of them!! :biggrin:

I'm actually, in general, quite anti-government, but what's more important in this case is that I'm even more against websites that publish a bunch of fear mongering extremist hype with almost no references to back it all up!!!
If you want to rely on information from a site like that to judge the tiny amount of PG in TQ, Cure #1 or Cure #2, then hey, that's you.

You, of course, are free to believe who you want to believe and use propylene glycol or not!


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## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Ok this is going to get into a crapping match so its locked.


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## chef jimmyj (May 9, 2012)

I have no Dog in this fight because I don't know enough about Propylene Glycol but I agree with, SausageBoy, on the all too frequent use of Fear mongering Hype. Not everybody is out to get us and review of both sides of an issue is important...JJ

BTW: This was just a comment on Fear and not a specific attack of any ones beliefs. So please don't take it as such...JJ


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## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Ya know it was not me who wrote the said, i just copied and pasted for info and it got all rocket science and out of content. im done.

This was copied from a site, thats why i posted the MTQ.

It's a Sunday afternoon, you've prepared all your ingredients for 6lbs of salami, and you are out of, lost or dropped in the sink of soapy dishwater your last envelope of cure #2.

Now, you happen to have some cure #1 and some Morton's Tender Quick.  Ok, I know - neither is a replacement for cure #2.  But follow me on this...

Cure #2 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:

Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
89.75% /6.25% /4%

Cure #1 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite
93.75% /6.25%

MTQ is comprised of the following ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
99% /.5% /.5%

If your recipe called for 7 grams of Cure #2, you could expect the following amounts of Nitrite and Nitrate to exist in your final recipe-
Nitrate = 7 * 4% = .28g
Nitrite = 7 * 6.25% = .4375g

So, you need .28g of Nitrate for your recipe.  To determine the total weight of MTQ needed to obtain .28g of Nitrate, you could use the following formula (this assumes that the percentage of Nitrate and Nitrite in MTQ are by weight and not volume):

Total MTQ Weight = Nitrate Needed/5%
MTQ = .28/.005 = 56g

So, 56g of MTQ will yield .28g of Nitrate.  It will also yield .28 grams of Nitrite and 55.4 grams of salt (MTQ indicates that it also contains sugar, but if you examine the ratio of sodium weight in table salt to the sodium weight in MTQ, you will find that MTQ sodium levels are 99.5% of that of table salt effectively making the remaining ingredient in MTQ 100% salt).

You still need additional Nitrite, as the MTQ does not meet the level of nitrite after the nitrate levels are reached.  You need a total of .4375g of nitrite for the recipe.  .4375 - .28 = .1575 still needed.

Total of Cure #1 Weight = Nitrite Needed/6.25%
Cure #1 = .1575/.0625 = 2.52g

Now, by adding the MTQ and Cure #1, you would have met the requirement for Nitrite and Nitrate.  Adding the Cure #1 also brings the total salt content up to 57.7625g.  If your recipe calls for at least this amount or more salt you should be OK.

Can anyone offer a challenge as to why this would not work as a replacement for Cure #2?


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## BGKYSmoker (May 8, 2012)

This post is not intended to stop using MTQ.

I seen where someone wanted to mix cure #1 with MTQ to make cure #2....BAD IDEA

Morton’s Tender Quick[emoji]8482[/emoji] contains 0.5 sodium nitrite, 0.5 sodium nitrate, salt, sugar, and propylene glycol (for brined meats). They make no mention of how much extra salt, sugar, and propylene glycol.

What Is Propylene Glycol And Why You Should Avoid It. It is is a chemical found in personal care products that acts as a penetration enhancer that keeps products from melting in heat and/or freezing when it is cold. It is found in items such as shampoo, conditioner, soap, acne treatment, moisturizer, toothpaste, deodorant, nail polish, mascara; basically anything you could possibly use on your body, propylene glycol is in it. But why should you avoid propylene glycol?

For starters it alters the structure of the skin by allowing chemicals to penetrate deep beneath it while increasing their ability to reach the blood stream. Sounds lovely, right? So even if propylene glycol was good for you, it’s main job is to help any other chemicals you come in contact with reach your bloodstream. However, there is even more to it than just that…

How Toxic is Propylene Glycol? According to the Environmental Working Group, propylene glycol can cause a whole host of problems. It is rated a 4 by them, which is categorized as a “moderate” health issue. It has been shown to be linked to cancer, developmental/reproductive issues, allergies/immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity and endocrine disruption. It has been found to provoke skin irritation and sensitization in humans as low as 2% concentration, while the industry review panel recommends cosmetics can contain up to 50% of the substance.

How to Spot Propylene Glycol
When looking at ingredient lists, you can look for names like 1,2-Dihydroxypropane; 2-Hydroxypropanol; Methylethy Glycol; 1,2-Propanediol; Propane-1,2-Diol.

I would in no way ever recommend mixing the two together for any reason whatsoever. Curing “pink salt” is not so expensive that it cannot be purchased in one or five pound amounts without having to pinch pennies by purchasing an “envelope” of the stuff. It doesn’t spoil or weaken if kept out of the light and away from moisture. On the “Sunday afternoon” he ran out, he should have placed the meat into the refrigerator and ordered some on Monday by Fed-Ex “overnight” or some other light-speed carrier. Really, shouldn’t any sausage maker have plenty of cure on hand if he is serious about the hobby?


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## ritamcd (May 8, 2012)

I have all 3 on hand .. would never attempt to mix them .. Great info tho .. Thanks for the heads up


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## alblancher (May 8, 2012)

I found a site that quoted the amount of salt in TQ at 97%.  Sugar and Propylene Glycol make up the remaining 2%

I don't recall their source or math but at the time I read it I was comfortable with the numbers.

As I gain experience curing meat I appreciate the ability to control the amounts of ingredients in my cure mixes.


----------



## chef jimmyj (May 8, 2012)

alblancher said:


> I found a site that quoted the amount of salt in TQ at 97%.  Sugar and Propylene Glycol make up the remaining 2%
> 
> I don't recall their source or math but at the time I read it I was comfortable with the numbers.
> 
> As I gain experience curing meat I appreciate the ability to control the amounts of ingredients in my cure mixes.


 Hey Al, Do you remember this bit of info?...JJ

 FWIW, I was told by a Morton rep many years ago that Tender Quick is approximately 79% salt, 20% sugar, 1/2% sodium nitrite, 1/2% sodium nitrate with a touch of Propylene Glycol.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/117802/getting-to-know-morton-tender-quick


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## smokinhusker (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for the info Rick and Al. I took chemistry but there's no way I'd mix the two...


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## diggingdogfarm (May 8, 2012)

I'm not advocating the mixing of TQ with other cures, but the propylene glycol hype is kind of crazy.
It's an approved food additive very low in toxicity, certainly far less toxic than nitrite and nitrate!


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## alblancher (May 8, 2012)

PM sent Jimmy  with 20% sugar could that have been their sugar cure?


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## chef jimmyj (May 9, 2012)

Now that makes sense! That's why I frequently push for clarification on cure safety matters...JJ


----------



## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

Apparently the formulation has changed since what I was told by the rep many long years ago.
I recently found out that all of Morton's cures are 95% salt and 2% sugar. I have confirmation. It has become just like anything that's been cheapened in recent years, salt is a lot cheaper than sugar! 
Yes, the propylene glycol hype is BS, there's a tiny amount added to act as a free-flow agent.
It's really a non-argument since some Cure#1 and #2, if not all of it, also contains propylene glycol.

Just the facts!!!


----------



## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Lets see i have 5 lbs each of cure 1&2 and no where in the label does it state propylene glycol.


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## alblancher (May 9, 2012)

We all agree knowledge is power.  When reading labels if you wish to avoid propylene glycol you can.  When I did a quick search for it there are maybe half a dozen names for the stuff.   If I remember properly if an ingredient is below a certain percentage and is not considered an active ingredient then it doesn't have to be included on the label.   Guess I have to research what an active ingredient is and what that percentage is.


----------



## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

Things aren't always labeled as they should be, there's almost without a doubt some type of free-flow agent added.
Notice that they probably don't include the coloring in the ingredient listing either (I know many don't).
Ask for the MSDS sheets.


Here are a couple sellers who list the ingredients properly......

http://www.myspicesage.com/prague-p...cd10aba8411ef~592~Prague Powder Number 1~2.00

http://www.americanspice.com/prague-powder-no-1-pink-curing-salt/


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

alblancher said:


> When reading labels if you wish to avoid propylene glycol you can.




Only if the label (listing of ingredients) is complete and correct! :biggrin:


----------



## daveomak (May 9, 2012)

SausageBoy, Evening..... nepas was pointing out _some concerns _associated with "propylene glycol"......  Are you saying he is misinforming us ????   Just wondering what your point was....    Dave

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


SausageBoy said:


> Apparently the formulation has changed since what I was told by the rep many long years ago.
> I recently found out that all of Morton's cures are 95% salt and 2% sugar. I have confirmation. It has become just like anything that's been cheapened in recent years, salt is a lot cheaper than sugar!
> *Yes, the propylene glycol hype is BS, there's a tiny amount added to act as a free-flow agent.*
> It's really a non-argument since some Cure#1 and #2, if not all of it, also contains propylene glycol.
> ...


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nepas previous post excerpts......

What Is Propylene Glycol And Why You Should Avoid It.* It is is a chemical found in personal care products that acts as a penetration enhancer *that keeps products from melting in heat and/or freezing when it is cold. It is found in items such as shampoo, conditioner, soap, acne treatment, moisturizer, toothpaste, deodorant, nail polish, mascara; basically anything you could possibly use on your body, propylene glycol is in it. But why should you avoid propylene glycol?

For starters* it alters the structure of the skin by allowing chemicals to penetrate deep beneath it while increasing their ability to reach the blood stream.* Sounds lovely, right? So even if propylene glycol was good for you,* it’s main job is to help any other chemicals you come in contact with reach your bloodstream.* However, there is even more to it than just that…

How Toxic is Propylene Glycol? According to the Environmental Working Group, propylene glycol can cause a whole host of problems. It is rated a 4 by them, which is categorized as a *“moderate” health issue*. It has been shown to be *linked to cancer*, *developmental/reproductive issues, allergies/immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity and endocrine disruption.* It has been found to* provoke skin irritation and sensitization in humans as low as 2% concentration*, while the industry review panel recommends cosmetics can contain up to 50% of the substance.

How to Spot Propylene Glycol
When looking at ingredient lists, you can look for *names like 1,2-Dihydroxypropane; 2-Hydroxypropanol; Methylethy Glycol; 1,2-Propanediol; Propane-1,2-Diol.*


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## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

It's an approved food additive, like anything, it has issues, there isn't a food or additive that I know of that doesn't have some issues.

It is, however, recognized as safe by the FDA:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title21-vol6/xml/CFR-2009-title21-vol6-sec582-1666.xml

What was posted above was lifted from an extremist website that promotes a lot of hype.

http://thegoodhuman.com/2009/03/31/what-is-propylene-glycol-and-why-you-should-avoid-it/

I'm not going to argue about this, but take just one example....*."It has been shown to be linked to cancer."*
Here's a report that supports the fact that PG isn't considered carcinogenic......
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/57-55-6.pdf

As I said above, it may be difficult to avoid the stuff if you are afraid of it and use cures.


----------



## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

SB

Take it how you will.

I use PG in my radiator and tanning rattle snake hides............Guess what i found posted and quoted for info was taken out of content AS INFO and re routed as BS.

If you beleive that the FDA, USDA, BATF and other Gov agencies are bible then hey thats you....Oh and the checks in the mail.


----------



## sausageboy (May 9, 2012)

I use nitrate to desolve tree stumps and salt to kill multiflora rose bushes! 
Oh, and for years we've used propylene glycol to treat cows with ketosis!
I have no fear of any of them!! :biggrin:

I'm actually, in general, quite anti-government, but what's more important in this case is that I'm even more against websites that publish a bunch of fear mongering extremist hype with almost no references to back it all up!!!
If you want to rely on information from a site like that to judge the tiny amount of PG in TQ, Cure #1 or Cure #2, then hey, that's you.

You, of course, are free to believe who you want to believe and use propylene glycol or not!


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## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Ok this is going to get into a crapping match so its locked.


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## chef jimmyj (May 9, 2012)

I have no Dog in this fight because I don't know enough about Propylene Glycol but I agree with, SausageBoy, on the all too frequent use of Fear mongering Hype. Not everybody is out to get us and review of both sides of an issue is important...JJ

BTW: This was just a comment on Fear and not a specific attack of any ones beliefs. So please don't take it as such...JJ


----------



## BGKYSmoker (May 9, 2012)

Ya know it was not me who wrote the said, i just copied and pasted for info and it got all rocket science and out of content. im done.

This was copied from a site, thats why i posted the MTQ.

It's a Sunday afternoon, you've prepared all your ingredients for 6lbs of salami, and you are out of, lost or dropped in the sink of soapy dishwater your last envelope of cure #2.

Now, you happen to have some cure #1 and some Morton's Tender Quick.  Ok, I know - neither is a replacement for cure #2.  But follow me on this...

Cure #2 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:

Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
89.75% /6.25% /4%

Cure #1 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite
93.75% /6.25%

MTQ is comprised of the following ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
99% /.5% /.5%

If your recipe called for 7 grams of Cure #2, you could expect the following amounts of Nitrite and Nitrate to exist in your final recipe-
Nitrate = 7 * 4% = .28g
Nitrite = 7 * 6.25% = .4375g

So, you need .28g of Nitrate for your recipe.  To determine the total weight of MTQ needed to obtain .28g of Nitrate, you could use the following formula (this assumes that the percentage of Nitrate and Nitrite in MTQ are by weight and not volume):

Total MTQ Weight = Nitrate Needed/5%
MTQ = .28/.005 = 56g

So, 56g of MTQ will yield .28g of Nitrate.  It will also yield .28 grams of Nitrite and 55.4 grams of salt (MTQ indicates that it also contains sugar, but if you examine the ratio of sodium weight in table salt to the sodium weight in MTQ, you will find that MTQ sodium levels are 99.5% of that of table salt effectively making the remaining ingredient in MTQ 100% salt).

You still need additional Nitrite, as the MTQ does not meet the level of nitrite after the nitrate levels are reached.  You need a total of .4375g of nitrite for the recipe.  .4375 - .28 = .1575 still needed.

Total of Cure #1 Weight = Nitrite Needed/6.25%
Cure #1 = .1575/.0625 = 2.52g

Now, by adding the MTQ and Cure #1, you would have met the requirement for Nitrite and Nitrate.  Adding the Cure #1 also brings the total salt content up to 57.7625g.  If your recipe calls for at least this amount or more salt you should be OK.

Can anyone offer a challenge as to why this would not work as a replacement for Cure #2?


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