# Botsulism:  Just cursious about the safety always preached.



## fpmich (Mar 31, 2015)

I've been reading some about *botulism.*

I've a question about why everyone is so concerned about it when smoking.

We have 320 million in the US. and only about 15 cases of botulism that is food borne.  Most of those are in western states with high elevation, and Alaska.

The rest of the 150 cases a year are mostly from infant botulism, wound botulism, or commercially prepared foods.

That 15 food borne in 320 million relates to about your chances of contacting botulism while smoking meat, or canning food, to roughly* .000000000146484 in a million.*

(if my math is off, please correct me)  My cheapo calculator doesn't have that many digits, so I did it by hand.

But... most of those 15 cases of botulism came from home canned, or commercially prepared food.

*So....  Why should I worry about if I miss my 40* to 140* by a few minutes to an hour?  Or why take jerky to 160* when drying?*

I stand a better chance of dying, from pulling out onto road while going to store I think.      We're ALL going to die.  Pick your own way to worry about.

I'd rather die in 4 to 20 days with a stick of jerky, smoked fish or ribs in my mouth, than linger in pain for months or years from some disease!!!

*Now, I am not preaching ignore all safety practices.*   I always do my best with hygiene and food treatment.  Same as Grandpa  and Parents.  Common sense, I think it is called.

There are more prevalent food poisoning  than Bot.  They make you very sick and may occasionally kill you.

*I think the real danger comes not your cooking method, but rather from where you buy you meat, and how it was processed before you bought it.*

*You NEVER saw a fresh killed chicken being washed* when we were growing up.  Kill it, bleed it, scald it to remove feather, torch or burn off pin feather on flame, then stick in fridge, can, or cook for dinner.  You can't get that taste from Tyson with those baby chicks they sell!

If I've stepped on any safety police toes, my apologies.

This post is just my opinion.  If you disagree with me, please enlighten me as to why.  I'm always willing to learn.  That is why I am on this forum.


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## foamheart (Mar 31, 2015)

fpmich said:


> If I've stepped on any safety police toes, my apologies.
> 
> This post is just my opinion.  If you disagree with me, please enlighten me as to why.  I'm always willing to learn.  That is why I am on this forum.


I look at it this way, the odds of winning the lotto are much the same, but someone still wins. I have eatten things a wild dog would have backed away from and as you say, never had much more than the GI's. But it doesn't mean that the next Lotto ticket I buy won't be the winner. Even if I don't win the big prize, Believe me I have won some of the smaller "consulation" prizes.

I can do a lot of things if its just me. But we are here at this site to learn but also to help others. Would you take the chance on causing someone else's misery and grief? Simply because we may not have seen it, because of others following those safe practices you are disallowing due to the odds, there are still those who have won the lotto. Is that how you'd want others to learn who are not as experienced as you?

If you are going to share you don't know the level of food safety mastery of those reading a post, and since there is no way of telling, why not treat each as if its a new comer to snoking/cooking. Is it so hard to go ahead and show the right way as opposed to adding a extrat paragraph to each thread with a disclaimer?

Thats why I always here go by the government standards, not because I am affraid (If you knew my usual luck you'd laugh at this statement), but because someone else might see something and attempt it themselves. I want to share what I do that is good, and not accidently or intentionally lead them on a path that had even the smallest possibility of causing them ill.

I think its a standard agreed to by everyone that comes here. An ounce of prevention is better than....... you've herad it before. Maybe, safe not sorry?

Its why I do it. Were I teaching my own son, I would be the same way.


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## gary s (Mar 31, 2015)

Foam ---  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Gary


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 31, 2015)

The "15" number is actually % not number of cases. It still doesnt change the odds significantly, just an FYI.

The level of botulism paranoia on SMF is one for textbooks. If you read nothing but the advice here you would be afraid of  dry cheese left on the counter (wrapped) for a day. I read an old thread where the OP was advised repeatedly to trash a ham cured in  brine (salt only, correct amount), at fridge temps for 30 days.

Having said that ...don't forget "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you". While odds are in our favour botulism toxin is the deadliest poison known. 

Botulism is a concern when consuming uncooked meats, or cooked meats that were not properly stored after. The 4-40-140 rule is not really to prevent botulism poisoning , since the toxin will be rendered harmless regardless of the time spent between 40-140, provided that the final IT rule is observed. Other bugs' poop however might not be denatured by heat, hence the rule.

Another myth promoted here and regurgitated on all popular BBQ, smoking and sausage making sites is that the cold smoking operation itself is the risky stage. I found no study or data to show this, just the generally accepted assumption: botulism bacteria thrives in oxygen deprived environments, therefore it must love the inside of the smoker. 

Even  FDA supports the fact that there is no botulism organism activity during cold smoking.

Studies I've seen show organism growth during the (improper) storage stage.

If someone has knowledge of a study showing botulism toxin levels immediately after cold smoking, not after a long storage time please let me know.


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## bmaddox (Mar 31, 2015)

Foamheart said:


> I look at it this way, the odds of winning the lotto are much the same, but someone still wins.


This is a perfect response. With the uncertainty of food handling before you purchase it, you should take every measure possible to ensure it is safe.

I have a 1.5 year old daughter who eats the food I smoke. When it comes to her, even some of the lesser food borne illnesses would be a disaster. The last thing I want is a toddler who can't stop throwing up.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 31, 2015)

"I think the real danger comes not your cooking method, but rather from where you buy you meat, and how it was processed before you bought it."
_-------
Unfortunately that is the main concern and nothing is done about it. It's legal to sell contaminated meat. They might as well list salmonella on the ingredients label.


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## wade (Mar 31, 2015)

fpmich said:


> That 15 food borne in 320 million relates to about your chances of contacting botulism while smoking meat, or canning food, to roughly* .000000000146484 in a million.*
> 
> (if my math is off, please correct me)  My cheapo calculator doesn't have that many digits, so I did it by hand.
> 
> ...


The subject of food safety needs to be taken as a whole and should not be separated out into specific organisms. Yes, the instances of some food related illnesses are rare however they affect different people in different ways. What is perfectly safe for some can be life-threatening for others. On here we promote the USDA guidelines for commercial food safety as they naturally result in good food hygine and they are there to protect the more vulnerable individuals as well as those with "stomachs of steel". Some people who are suffering from a food related illness may not even realise that they are, as the symptoms can appear many hours after ingestion and appear flu-like. 

It is understandable that some folks want to stick with "traditional" ways of food preparation, however as it takes so little additional effort to comply with the guidelines, to me anyway, it is a no-brainer to follow good practice. When preparing food for yourself it is really up to you whether you feel comfortable eating it - but as soon as you start sharing it with others then that is a completely different situation. Their expectation is that the food you serve them will be _*totally*_ safe to eat.

OK, from your statistics the odds of specifically contracting Botulism poisoning may be similar to winning the lottery however why take that risk. Every week someone DOES win the lottery. How would it feel if someone had not followed good food safety practice and the "lucky" winner happened to be a wife or son/daughter. If it happened to be a friend or neibour then, as well as the feelings of gilt and regret, the following litigation does not bear thinking about.

The guidelines obviously have safety margins built into them and when cooking at home, providing you understand where they are, then you can take an informed decision as to whether they are critical in a home-smoking environment. So, would I bin my meat if I miss my 40* to 140* by a few minutes? No. Would I take jerky to 160* when drying? No I don't. But would I eat salami or chorizo that did not contain cure that had been vac packed for storage after drying? The answer to that would be a resounding NO too.

Updated to correct spelling mistakes - where is Microsoft Spell Check when you need it most?


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## kc5tpy (Mar 31, 2015)

Hello..  I have to agree.  When you are sharing knowledge the responsibility falls square in your lap to make sure the person receiving that knowledge has all the tools necessary to use the knowledge in a safe manner.  As has been pointed out you don't know the level of experience the other person has; SO you take every one to the beginning.  We still take a LOT for granted here.  I once had an assignment in a course I took:  Pretend you are talking to a Martian and then write a set of instructions as to how to wrap a Christmas gift.  Then following ONLY your own instructions; try to wrap a box.  Hint: you need to explain why the box needs to be wrapped in the first place and where to find wrapping paper and a box.  You will be surprised!  When you read instructions for a hair dryer you will probably find it says not to be used in the shower.  Now, the only reason I can figure why they would add that is that some fool must have tried using it in the shower.  It never said NOT to use it in the shower.   
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## daveomak (Mar 31, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> The "15" number is actually % not number of cases. It still doesnt change the odds significantly, just an FYI.
> 
> The level of botulism paranoia on SMF is one for textbooks. If you read nothing but the advice here you would be afraid of  dry cheese left on the counter (wrapped) for a day. I read an old thread where the OP was advised repeatedly to trash a ham cured in  brine (salt only, correct amount), at fridge temps for 30 days.
> 
> ...


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## daveomak (Mar 31, 2015)

You need to read this.....   


http://www.tarakharper.com/b_botuln.htm


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## rgautheir20420 (Mar 31, 2015)

I don't understand why this topic comes up so much. People on this forum should know by now and understand it's viewpoint of food safety. If not...it's right there for you to read. I can understand experiments done to test processes (like Wade's), but I can't understand a thread like this that gets started simply to question WHY. Probably every person that has commented on this thread has commented somewhere before about their standpoint on food safety. Does this topic really require thread after thread of the OP asking for others to explain why they do things by the USDA? 

If you don't want to follow the USDA guidelines for proper preparation for food safety then don't. It's your call. At this point, you're not learning anything you already know....you're asking people to attempt to sway your mind (which I'm sure is already made up and you're gonna do it like you want anyway).


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## tigerregis (Mar 31, 2015)

There are other pathogens besides botulism. When 
I was in meat cutting school, we were taught that certain bacteria double in number every 20 minutes. These beasts are not conducive to human health. Even sanitising the block was scrupulously supervised.
Our health departments inspect for any violations and when I was in retail not sanitising the whole cutting room was grounds for dismissal.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 31, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> *Please site the FDA statement that supports your comment....*


http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodScienceResearch/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm099239.htm

Paragraph 4.2


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## daveomak (Mar 31, 2015)

4.2. Cold smoking 

Although the smoking process uses temperatures at which C. botulinum grows well, cold smoking is a highly aerated process; therefore, no growth of the organism occurs during this processing step.



Thanks....   that didn't make sense to me...   Now it does...  I knew the temperature zone was very conducive to botulism growth...   but the oxygen supply takes care of multiplication of the organism.....  

Although they may be correct with their statement, considering the reduction of oxygen, I'm still using nitrite in any meat I smoke....  If I screw it up once, that could be all it takes to.......   turn out the lights...  the parties over....


OK, I looked at the header on that form.......    That is *type E* botulism found in *fish*.......   that is NOT THE SAME botulism found in meats....

You can't make the assumption they act the same......


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 31, 2015)

I gave you a highly credible source stating that botulism would not grow duringduring cold smoking. Do you have a credible source saying the type A, B can grow in a smoker environment? Not the regurgitated material from meatsandsausages.


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## kc5tpy (Mar 31, 2015)

Hello.  We can argue USDA, FDA and all the other alphabet organisations but the obvious question is being forgotten.  If you KNOW that skipping a step exposes your child to a 1 in 100 million chance of death;  WHY THA HE** WOULD YOU DO IT????  We aren't talking accidents.  Driving down the road and such.  We are talking NEGLIGENCE!  In a court of law one could easily make a case for manslaughter ( actions you took or omitted that any reasonable person could have foreseen MAY have resulted in the injury or death of another )  AND if you caused the death of your own child???  This whole discussion is really silly in my humble opinion.  Why would you not pass on the safety rules??  I'm with RG here.  I guess these folks would give their children a firearm without proper instruction!  Chances are they won't kill themselves or any one else.  






   LUDICROUS!  Have fun folks!  Outta here!  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## timberjet (Mar 31, 2015)

gary s said:


> Foam ---
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x2


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## timberjet (Mar 31, 2015)

KC5TPY said:


> Hello..  I have to agree.  When you are sharing knowledge the responsibility falls square in your lap to make sure the person receiving that knowledge has all the tools necessary to use the knowledge in a safe manner.  As has been pointed out you don't know the level of experience the other person has; SO you take every one to the beginning.  We still take a LOT for granted here.  I once had an assignment in a course I took:  Pretend you are talking to a Martian and then write a set of instructions as to how to wrap a Christmas gift.  Then following ONLY your own instructions; try to wrap a box.  Hint: you need to explain why the box needs to be wrapped in the first place and where to find wrapping paper and a box.  You will be surprised!  When you read instructions for a hair dryer you will probably find it says not to be used in the shower.  Now, the only reason I can figure why they would add that is that some fool must have tried using it in the shower.  It never said NOT to use it in the shower.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with danny. Better to teach right if you are doing the teaching.


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## timberjet (Mar 31, 2015)

If you ever had it like I did when I lived in Hawaii after Hurricane Iniki and we had no refrigeration for nearly a year because of the lack of electrical infrastructure. Or knew someone that has had it and lived through it like I did you would not even question why to practice safe food handling and cooking practices. Period. I just hate these kind of stupid posts. If you want to do something that is blatantly idiotic and place your family and friends at risk then that's your business. There is no debating. Besides when you agreed to the terms to use this website you agreed to safe food handling.


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## wade (Mar 31, 2015)

Steady on guys. I know we have tackled similar topics before, however not everyone can be expected to have read every post. Frank is perfectly entitled to pose the question again without the fear of being flamed by other members. I think he has probably got the message though that we all support following USDA guidelines here.


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## pops6927 (Mar 31, 2015)

fpmich said:


> I've been reading some about *botulism.*
> 
> I've a question about why everyone is so concerned about it when smoking.
> 
> ...


One thing to discern is that Cured meat does not fall into the 40° to 140° in 4 hours category, as the curing process greatly reduces that danger.  Just like cold smoking for many hours reduces the danger because of the nitrite in wood smoke on fresh pork.  And/or a combination of both.  I personally recommend achieving a finished internal temp of 146° or higher, as I certainly don't trust my sons or their loved ones to cook stuff thoroughly, lol!  If I give it to them fully cooked, there is less chance of them messing it up.  Jerky is normally has some curing salt in it and can go past those rules, and thin enough to easily cook and dry.

Thank you Wade, for your remarks on Frank's asking; we all learn and need refresher reminders.


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## inkjunkie (Mar 31, 2015)

Have not read all of the posts prior to mine, I do apologize for that. But I see this thread as a good oppurtunity to "say my piece". I had a rather frustrating conversation, for me at least, with another member a while back....was about controlling the temperature of my BGE. Have seen more times than I can count that "you control the temperture with the intake alone". Have been told that you need to leave the exhaust wide open to prevent "stale smoke"....whatever that is. Have also been told, or at least it was impied, that this stale smoke MAY lead to the big "B". I created an account on several Egg forums just to research this. The unilaterial way to control temperature of an Egg, according to the pages of comments I read on the Egg forums, is with both the intake AND exhaust. So does this mean all of these folks are putting themselves at increased risk of contracting the big "B"? 

I am sure there is going to be more than one fellow here that says yes...so be it...not saying who is wrong and who is right...not going to try too understand this as it is far above my inteligence level. 

Some of this safety stuff can be, at least in my perspective, reminds me of how some folks feel about firearms...Have had more than one heated discussion with several folks about firearms...and almost always walk away with a headache. I am sitting here, accross the room from a gun safe that has the door cracked open. There is at least 4 loaded firearms in that safe....all with the barrels pointed at me...have been this way for over 2 years now and to date I have not had a firearm decide to discharge a round.....


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## wade (Apr 1, 2015)

inkjunkie said:


> Have not read all of the posts prior to mine, I do apologize for that. But I see this thread as a good oppurtunity to "say my piece". I had a rather frustrating conversation, for me at least, with another member a while back....was about controlling the temperature of my BGE. Have seen more times than I can count that "you control the temperture with the intake alone". Have been told that you need to leave the exhaust wide open to prevent "stale smoke"....whatever that is. Have also been told, or at least it was impied, that this stale smoke MAY lead to the big "B". I created an account on several Egg forums just to research this. The unilaterial way to control temperature of an Egg, according to the pages of comments I read on the Egg forums, is with both the intake AND exhaust. So does this mean all of these folks are putting themselves at increased risk of contracting the big "B"?
> 
> I am sure there is going to be more than one fellow here that says yes...so be it...not saying who is wrong and who is right...not going to try too understand this as it is far above my inteligence level.
> 
> Some of this safety stuff can be, at least in my perspective, reminds me of how some folks feel about firearms...Have had more than one heated discussion with several folks about firearms...and almost always walk away with a headache. I am sitting here, accross the room from a gun safe that has the door cracked open. There is at least 4 loaded firearms in that safe....all with the barrels pointed at me...have been this way for over 2 years now and to date I have not had a firearm decide to discharge a round.....


I too have not understood what "stale smoke" means in the context of hot smoking. I don't have a BGE (I have a Weber which works in a similar way) and I always use a combination of the bottom and top vents to finely manage the internal temperature. You never completely close the top vent (or the fuel will go out) so there is always air/smoke flowing through the the unit.

I think the myth that this environment would lead to an increased risk of botulism is a result of extrapolating a single factor of lower oxygen environment to its extreme. Whenever you control the internal temperature of a smoker using the vents you are simply reducing the available oxygen to the coals and therefore inside the cooking chamber too. This lower oxygen environment is going to flow upwards and out of the the top vent - faster if it is fully open and slightly slower if it is partially closed. To achieve the required amount of oxygen coming in contact with the coals you have the choice of either having the top vent fully open and almost close the bottom vent or partially close the top vent and open up the bottom vent. Either way the same volume of air/oxygen needs to flow over the coals and therefore through the chamber. Either case is likely to result in similar reduced oxygen levels within the cooking chamber - but does this increase the risk of botulism?

Well no.

If you are cooking a lump of meat then, proving the meat is intact, any botulinum spores will be on the surface. Botulinum spores are killed after 3 minutes exposure to a temperatures of 121 C (250 F) and the botulinum toxin is destroyed by heating to 80 C (176 F) for 30 minutes or 100 C (212 F) for 10 minutes. As it is the ingestion of the pre-formed toxin that causes the food poisoning, with the inside of the smoker chamber usually between 225-250 F (or above) any toxin that may have formed on the surface of the meat will have quickly been broken down. There would possibly be some additional risk if the surface of the meat had been punctured (by injecting or with a probe) as this could take spores down into the meat mass - and if the centre of the meat did not reach 80 C (176 F) some toxin may not be broken down. This risk (if present) would be no different however if the temperature was being controlled by the bottom vent alone or a combination of the top and bottom vents.


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## fpmich (Apr 1, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> I don't understand why this topic comes up so much. People on this forum should know by now and understand it's viewpoint of food safety. If not...it's right there for you to read. I can understand experiments done to test processes (like Wade's), but I can't understand a thread like this that gets started simply to question WHY. Probably every person that has commented on this thread has commented somewhere before about their standpoint on food safety. Does this topic really require thread after thread of the OP asking for others to explain why they do things by the USDA?
> 
> If you don't want to follow the USDA guidelines for proper preparation for food safety then don't. It's your call. At this point, you're not learning anything you already know....you're asking people to attempt to sway your mind (which I'm sure is already made up and you're gonna do it like you want anyway).


I appreciate your post, but you are wrong. I MAY just be learning something I don't know.  That is why I asked the question.  To see if someone can show me there is more danger from botulism than I have read.  We don't all go to the same sites for info, you understand.  I just wanted to make sure. 
I hate Goggle.  It's not as good of a search engine as Alta vista used to be.  Site Content used to considered back then.

And while I have not read 'all' of the many thousands of posts, and threads in these forums.  I have read a lot of them over the last couple of years, but didn't remember finding any on the "odds" of getting botulism poisoning.
So maybe this thread will serve some purpose after all.  At least it got some people searching for their own answers.
Again, I am not saying ignore botulism chance, just saying don't obsess over it.

I don't recall saying I'm asking someone to sway my mind,  Just that I "AM" willing to learn.
I'm sorry if just the title of this thread upset you so much. 
Maybe none of us should ever ask a question that may, or may not, have been posted ever before.
Would that make you a happier person?

*KC5SPY*
Your post cracked me up.  You're right about written instructions.

.

.

.

Now, before a Moderator closes thread,

I want to say this.  I really am looking for info.  I never meant it to be argumentative. 

Just looking for info, and to get people researching for themselves.  Then they an make their own judgment calls. But I want it to be realistic.
I'm not saying to disregard food safety.  I follow guidlines much more closely than I used to.  But maybe a caveat should be added to all those post advising to just toss food in disregard of chances of illness or death.


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## wade (Apr 1, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *fpmich*
> 
> I'm going on a trip with my daughter on a 300 round trip.
> The odds are much greater of her, or myself, dying, than it from smoked meats or canned.food)
> If she was the one to die, I feel exactly the same way as I would if I thought my food had killed her.  But that is not stopping us us to attempt driving 300 miles.


I can see exactly where you are coming from and it is always important to ask questions in order to understand. Statistics are all relative and we all know that they can be used to support an argument or sometimes scare. In Europe at the moment we have people questioning the safety of flying following several recent air crashes - especially the recent one in the Alps. Look at the actual statistics though and it still remains one of the safest means of transport.

Unfortunately with so many variables you never know exactly why the statistics are as they are. Playing devils advocate, maybe only reason that the incidence of botulism poisoning is so low is because almost everyone who smokes meat IS adhering to the USDA guidelines already...


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## daveomak (Apr 1, 2015)

quote fpmitch,
Now, before a Moderator closes thread,

 I want to say this.  I really am looking for info.  I never meant it to be argumentative. 

Just looking for info, and to get people researching for themselves.  Then they an make their own judgment calls. But I want it to be realistic.
 I'm not saying to disregard food safety.  I follow guidlines much more closely than I used to.  But maybe a caveat should be added to all those post advising to just toss food in disregard of chances of illness or death. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


fpmich, good morning.....    

Things you can do to increase your chance of getting botulism.....

Do not properly pressure can food....   use a water bath for beans, carrots, meats, fish etc....  only bring the temperature up to 212 degrees F when canning....  instead of 250 degrees F...    That will insure any botulism spores have not been killed....

When pickling foods, do not properly acidify the pickling juice...  do not add extra lemon juice or vinegar to lower the pH to 4.6-4.7 (to allow for test measurement accuracy)...  that will insure the botulism spores can grow and multiply....

Vacuum pack your food and do not store in a refrigerator or freezer....   leave it on the kitchen counter....   botulism really likes a low oxygen environment and a 70 ish degree temperature..... that will allow the spores to flourish...

Smoke your sausages, bacon etc. in a low oxygen environment of a smokehouse without the use of nitrite...   If you read packaged meats ingredients lists, where the meats are smoked, almost every package lists nitrite...


Unfortunately, most folks in the US follow safe food practices, and manufacturers are mandated by law, to follow safe food practices, thus skewing the data making it SEEM like botulism is nearly impossible to contract....   

Take your time....  do some testing with different food groups and processing methods.....  DO NOT FEED ANYONE ELSE YOUR TEST FOODS......   then get back to us with your results....  be sure to notify your relatives you are testing how to contract botulism, so the doctors don't waste time trying to diagnose your condition....     As you have noted, botulism is sooooo  rare, most doctors don't know what to look for...

_SARCASM_


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 1, 2015)

"Smoke your sausages, bacon etc. in a low oxygen environment of a smokehouse"
_-------

Is that something you measured or tested out?


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 1, 2015)

Can botulism cause a zombie outbreak?


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## daveomak (Apr 1, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> "Smoke your sausages, bacon etc. in a low oxygen environment of a smokehouse"
> _-------
> 
> Is that something you measured or tested out?



+++++++++++

Smoking Without Nitrates

For those who smoke meats without cures, it will be advisable to smoke them at temperatures well above the danger zone (>160° F, 72° C). Such a product will not be pink but will exhibit a typical grayish color of cooked meat. Adding cure to meats that will be smoked brings many benefits (explained later), one of them is preventing the danger of contracting food poisoning, known as botulism. Barbecued meats are smoked at much higher temperatures which eliminates the danger of Clostridium botulinum producing toxins.

Those who insist on smoking meats without nitrates, should be aware that the internal meat temperature trails the temperature of the smokehouse by about 25° F and to be on the outside of the danger zone, the smoking must be performed at temperatures higher than 170° F (77° C) which in our opinion becomes cooking with smoke. Clostridium botulinum bacteria need moisture, warm temperatures and the absence of oxygen. These are prevalent conditions in a small self contained smoker, where incoming air is kept at minimum in order for the sawdust to smolder and not to burst into the flames. A large outside smokehouse with a separate fire pit is at a smaller risk as there is an ample flow of fresh air that enters smoking chamber together with the smoke. Using dry wood increases safety as less moisture will be created.

+++++++++++++

5.4.4. Fish

Listeria monocytogenes has been found in commercial samples of cold smoked fish leading to product recalls in New York (Cold smoked sea bass FDA Recall No.F-313-1) and Seattle, WA (Cold smoked salmon FDA Recall #F-265-1). These recalls demonstrate that even with HACCP and careful plant sanitation, commercial processors have contamination incidences in their *cold smoked fish processes*. In New York, fish sausage was recalled because laboratory analysis found pH (acidity), salt and water activity levels in the product were such that they could potentially permit *Clostridium botulinum* to develop and produce the toxin (NY State Agriculture Commissioner 2000).

+++++++++

atomicsmoke....  You should do the "no nitrite" in foods you are planning to smoke and report back to us on your findings.... DO NOT FEED THOSE PRODUCTS TO OTHERS.....


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## daveomak (Apr 1, 2015)

1ZIP LIP.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Apr 1, 2015


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 1, 2015)

Please ....not the regurgitated smokemeatsandsausages/Mariansky material.

Nice try regarding hot smoking....I am sure you are aware that even hot smoked fish has been found contaminated with botulism toxin. Why? Smoke temp was safe. Because it stayed in vacpac or MAP for a long time at unsafe temps. AFTER smoking. That is the problem...
There is no organism growth during smoking. Cold or hot.

Dave,
Don't appreciate the personal attack (the "Duct tape can't fix stupid' ...in case you decide to clean your tracks :-)).
This is your second strike.


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## bluewhisper (Apr 1, 2015)

Look on the bright side!

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/184023/start-april-with-a-fresh-new-face


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## gary s (Apr 1, 2015)

Geeeeezzzzzz     Enough is enough      Lets get back to smoking 

Gary


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 1, 2015)

no word on the zombies?


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## kc5tpy (Apr 1, 2015)

Hello.  Sorry I got a little outta line.  I also don't know why I don't just shut up but here I go again.  Many folks here know WAY more than I do about this subject but here is my take on your question of WHY versus WHY NOT.

Frank; your example of a 300 mile round trip answers the question PERFECTLY.  It's NOT about statistics.  It's about responsible behaviour.  You can't ASSUME anything.  Now if I were giving you instructions on which route you should take, I'd be irresponsible not to advise you to: A. learn to drive a car. B. Get a driving license. C. Make sure everyone is wearing a seatbelt, AND D. you should probably lay off the alcohol while driving;   BEFORE taking your daughter on a 300 mile round trip.  For all we know, some person reading the advice may be a blind alcoholic who has never driven a car before.  I sold my offset to a guy who saw me pull a 15lb brisket off it; and he tasted it.  When I was selling he was ALL OVER IT.  Said he couldn't wait to smoke a brisket .  I asked if he had ever even bbq'ed half a chicken.  His response was "NO.  I usually precook chicken in an oven.  But how hard can it be? A brisket is only a big joint of beef".  I don't know if he can cook anything and he didn't ask for help or advice.  That mentality is out there and it is something we can't ignore.  Since being here in England I have seen and heard first hand just GREEN some folks are when it comes to smoking and curing.  We have a great bunch of guys in the U.K. Group who know their stuff but it is only in the past few years becoming more popular.  Some folks see you pull a large brisket and figure " well if that idiot can do it; how hard can it be"?  It's for those folks that we MUST keep banging on about food safety as a whole.  Not for the members who know what they are doing and just need a little extra help and/or guidance on something they have never tried before.  That's the WHY  you were asking about.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## humdinger (Apr 1, 2015)

hillbillyrkstr said:


> no word on the zombies?


While I don't have FDA data to support this, yes it has been known to cause zombies if the climate/soil is just right. I think the moon has to be full too.


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## pops6927 (Apr 1, 2015)

ALL RIGHT!  ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!  I'm shutting down the entire Smoking Meat Forums for excessive blathering!  THAT IS IT!

and...













april fools.jpg



__ pops6927
__ Apr 1, 2015


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 1, 2015)

Lmao humdinger! I knew it! This is no joke! Now I see why fpmich got all these folks going about this!


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 1, 2015)

hillbillyrkstr said:


> Lmao humdinger! I knew it! This is no joke! Now I see why fpmich got all these folks going about this!



Well...symptoms are dropping eyelids, facial paralysis, difficulty breathing so one might look zombie-ish after ingesting the toxin.


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## foamheart (Apr 1, 2015)

Case recommended this site to me..........................................

http://www.lemproducts.com/botulism...+Vacuum+Sealing&utm_campaign=EMAILsealer15_v2


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## rgautheir20420 (Apr 1, 2015)

Foamheart said:


> Case recommended this site to me..........................................
> 
> http://www.lemproducts.com/botulism...+Vacuum+Sealing&utm_campaign=EMAILsealer15_v2


I read through the whole page and don't see where it says to add the water. Now I'm really confused....


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 1, 2015)

It's always zombies....

ALWAYS


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## foamheart (Apr 1, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> I read through the whole page and don't see where it says to add the water. Now I'm really confused....


I think this is the Mexican Bot. they already know about the water there.


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## kc5tpy (Apr 1, 2015)

Hello.  I must be the stupid person here.  I am mising something.  In post 24 he asked a direct question.  He then clouded that with statics but the basic question remains.

*He asked why publish the food safety advisories versus why NOT add the advisories to your replies.*   OK it is paraphrased but that was the "BASIC" question he asked as I understand it.  The statistics, facts and figures seem irrelevant to me regarding this particular question,  We can argue all the facts and figures out there.  Why we add the advisories. as per his question.  It's not about how likely you are to contract botulism but why do we keep adding the warnings?  It;s his question.  If he asked the wrong question then that is his fault.  If he wanted to discuss the "possibility" of getting botulism then he should have framed his question in a different manner.  His question is why should I follow these rules versus why would you not follow these rules.  So we see how confusion happens.  So Frank are you questioning the chances of getting botulism; and I say botulism because you narrowed it down; or are you questioning the chances of getting sick by eating some badly prepared food?  Just so we are talking apples and apples herer.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## fpmich (Apr 2, 2015)

*Whew!  Slow down and chill out folks.  I only asked a "question".*   I didn't drop a bomb on your homestead..  Sheesh!

Thanks everyone for your replies and input.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going here.

Some of you may have just just skimmed my posts, and then replied in a non-productive way. 

However, there are some well thought out, and helpful posts in these replies too.

I appreciate those much more, than the ones implying I am an idiot, promoting the ignoring of safety guidelines, nor following them myself.

I don't recall in either my 1st post, or my second post in #24, where I was giving the impression that no one needs to follow safety practices. Those attacking, instead of informing, should be ashamed.  What would your mother say if you attacked one of her friends the same way, IN PERSON, who asked what you considered a stupid question?

Now back to topic.  My question was why so much emphasis put on botulism safety over all others.  There are other bug-a-boos in meat that can make us sick and even die from too.

I think the chance of getting food poisoning from them is much more prevalent, than botulism.

*Now, maybe the answer to my question MAY BE, that if you follow the guidelines for botulism prevention, you also can prevent the other nasty bugs from invading your intestines.  *I don't know if that is true or not, but my guess is, it is for the most part. 

But no one ever says that.  It's always botulism.  It makes it seem like bot is running rampant in the country.  It isn't.  The other bugs are.

The govt safety guideline have an ample leeway built into them to make sure that that even if someone screws up a little bit here or there, they are covered.

So I don't feel that if we miss 40 to 140 by 15 or 20 minutes, we will die from eating it.  Or if our food is 2* below guidelines.  I am NOT saying ignore safe practices.  Just that if you miss a time or temp by just a little bit, you chances are still very slim of getting sick from botulism.

I used to drive semi all over the country, and I know first hand about food poisoning.  I've had it several times.  Always from restaurants, but never at home in my life of 69 years.

3 of those were very severe to the point I had to have someone else come and take my load on to it's destination.  2 of those caused me to come home and have my wife help me scrub and bleach sanitize my entire truck.  I washed all the bed clothes and even all my clothes that hadn't been worn yet.  And one case caused me to miss 4 weeks of work.  I could not eat or drink anything.  I lost over 25 lbs. in 3 weeks.  I became very dehydrated and actually thought I was going to die one night.  I sat in my chair debating whether or not it would be easier on my wife to find me dead in the chair, or in bed with her.  I opted for the chair.  Thankfully it didn't happen, but I thought it was going to my last night in this life.

*So don't consider me stupid enough to just ignore guidelines for the sake of saying I've done it.*   I try at all times to follow well within the guidelines, but sometimes it happens that I fall short a bit.  I don't fret about it.  Now, if I fall way out of guidelines, then I toss it with no remorse.  I've done that more than once.


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 2, 2015)

Every time this subject comes up all hell breaks loose. I just sit back and enjoy the ride! Let the insults fly.


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 2, 2015)

Also dinger said there would be zombies. If that's not enough to stop people from playing around with low oxygen environments, and botulism I'm not sure what is....


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## dcarch (Apr 2, 2015)

Those of you who know all about food safety, please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and please permit me to speak. Like the OP, I am here to learn.

I am puzzle by all the warnings about “don’t stick your thermometer in your meat”. Is there any proof that is as dangerous as everyone’s perception?

I forgot the exact number, something like 5%? Or 15%? 25%? of all the beef you buy are already perforated hundreds of times by a process called “mechanically tenderized” and 85% of the tenderized steaks are served in restaurants. There is no labeling require for meat sold this way.

Mother Nature always wins.

Remember astronauts in gravity free space? In a very short time, they couldn’t even walk when they returned to earth. If you don’t exercise your immune system, soon the nasties will take over.

At this point in the USA, we are kept alive artificially by spending annually $3,800,000,000,000 in medicine. Medicine is basically chemical wheelchairs for the physiologically handicapped.

There is no such thing as “Super Bugs”, it is just that we have now become “Super Weak” animals.

*Yes, absolutely “When in doubt, throw it out”*, don't take chances, but make sure you really read the whole concept of food safety recommendations and only apply the relevant guidelines to your own situation, IMHO.

dcarch


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 2, 2015)

I was hoping to only write about zombies and the eventual zombie apocalypse on this thread but I will say this. I don't stab meat (brisket/shoulders) and take the temp till im at least 4+ hours in. No reason to before that anyway. And if it helps me to not shove bacteria deep into the meat its a win/win and I'm helping to stop the zombie take over.


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## rgautheir20420 (Apr 2, 2015)

dcarch said:


> Those of you who know all about food safety, please excuse my ignorance on this topic, and please permit me to speak. Like the OP, I am here to learn.
> 
> I am puzzle by all the warnings about “don’t stick your thermometer in your meat”. Is there any proof that is as dangerous as everyone’s perception?
> 
> ...


You know dcarch. I'm gonna take a stab at this as this is MY own understanding of the "don't stab your meat right away" rule. When smoking pork butts and whole cut pieces of meat, I use the 40-140 rule more for any part of the meat that is exposed to the outside air and bacteria...meaning the exterior of the meat. Seeing as the meat is still a whole cut, the interior has not been exposed yet. Quite often the internal temps of a pork shoulder don't get above 140 within 4 hours of being removed from the fridge, and that's technically when the clock starts I think. Back to the stabbing your meat thing, so if you stab your meat at the beginning, your basically opening up a wound in the meat and allowing bacteria to get into the interior of the meat where the IT will be lower than the suggested 140 for a longer period of time. 

That's my take and it might be wrong but ohwell. However, I still see no reason to stab the thermo in there before a few hours into the smoke anyways. There are exceptions of course to stabbing at the beginning....like maybe a whole prime roast or something like that. I'll still usually wait a couple hours because I know it will good.


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 2, 2015)

That's exactly what I said minus the zombies.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 2, 2015)

Dcarch,

I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.

But you touched a critical point here: the condition of the meat when we buy it. It's common knowledge (and legal) that the industrially produced meat is loaded with pathogens. As long as we chase $.99/lb butts nothing will change. 

What is not being said is the amount of abuse the meat goes thru before we pick it up. Every grocery store you shop at has piles of meats in an open refrigerated display. Sometimes ft high. As customers dig for the best looking piece they move them around. There is a very good chance your ground meat package was in the 40-140 temp range for 4hours  before you buy it.  And this is just what we see. Who knows what else behind the meat packing room doors.


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## rgautheir20420 (Apr 2, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> Dcarch,
> 
> I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.
> 
> ...


atomic, that's the exact reason I try and buy cryo vac sealed cuts. I'm not huge on trusting how sanitary the guys behind the counter are when cutting up the mornings meat haul.


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## dcarch (Apr 2, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> You know dcarch. I'm gonna take a stab at this as this is MY own understanding of the "don't stab your meat right away" rule. When smoking pork butts and whole cut pieces of meat, I use the 40-140 rule more for any part of the meat that is exposed to the outside air and bacteria...meaning the exterior of the meat. Seeing as the meat is still a whole cut, the interior has not been exposed yet. Quite often the internal temps of a pork shoulder don't get above 140 within 4 hours of being removed from the fridge, and that's technically when the clock starts I think. Back to the stabbing your meat thing, so if you stab your meat at the beginning, your basically opening up a wound in the meat and allowing bacteria to get into the interior of the meat where the IT will be lower than the suggested 140 for a longer period of time.
> 
> That's my take and it might be wrong but ohwell. However, I still see no reason to stab the thermo in there before a few hours into the smoke anyways. There are exceptions of course to stabbing at the beginning....like maybe a whole prime roast or something like that. I'll still usually wait a couple hours because I know it will good.


My points:

1. Is there any study showing poking with a thermometer introduces microbes into the meat? ( I know, common sense. Try to put a touch of food coloring on the tip of your thermometer, stick the probe into the meat, and see how much food color you actually get to the inside of the meat.).

2. A significant amount of the meat you buy already have been poked deep hundreds of times when you buy them, how important is it for you to poke one more hole?

3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them?

dcarch


atomicsmoke said:


> Dcarch,
> 
> I have no knowledge of cuts of meat being perforated/tenderized before being sold. Are you sure about this? That would be a major concern.
> 
> -----


I am very surprised that this is seldom discussed.

Google "Mechanically tenderized meat" 

We have gotten ourselves so weak and so sick by being so clean and by following safety guideline like zombies.

dcarch


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## rgautheir20420 (Apr 2, 2015)

My points:

1. Is there any study showing poking with a thermometer introduces microbes into the meat? ( I know, common sense. Try to put a touch of food coloring on the tip of your thermometer, stick the probe into the meat, and see how much food color you actually get to the inside of the meat.). *Never seen one.*

2. A significant amount of the meat you buy already have been poked deep hundreds of times when you buy them, how important is it for you to poke one more hole? *This sounds like you're talking about "brine pumped" cuts. I've stuck at the beginning and a few hours in. Personally, I don't think it matters. I guess not probing at the beginning helps me take my mind off the meat...otherwise I might be looking at it more cause I'm like that.*

3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them? *Disagree. Safety guidelines are for everyone's safety. I'm a 31 year old healthy man. Don't think I can get sick from poorly prepared or handled food? I'll take that as a complement, but I'll continue to follow the safe food prep guidelines for now.*


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 2, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> atomic, that's the exact reason I try and buy cryo vac sealed cuts. I'm not huge on trusting how sanitary the guys behind the counter are when cutting up the mornings meat haul.


Cryovac or not they are still thrown around and spend a long time at temps they shouldn't . Touch a few packages next time you shop. You can easily tell they are not cold.


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## dcarch (Apr 2, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> ------
> 
> 3. Safety guideline are for the very young, very weak, very sick and very old. Are you one of them?  *Disagree. Safety guidelines are for everyone's safety. ----------*


Please read the thinking behind all these safety guidelines we throw around.

Just to be *very very very *clear. Do not ever fool around with other people's health, you can do whatever you want with your own.

While I am very relaxed cooking for myself, I am 200% more careful than many of you when i have to make food for others. I sanitize the whole cooking environment including using a 50 watt germicidal UV light to kill any possible germs, from ceiling down.

dcarch


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## inkjunkie (Apr 2, 2015)

Have a neighbor that claims to be a farmer. His plans are to strike it rich by raising/slaughtering pigs. After joining here I seen it mentioned that ALL pork needs to spend 30 days frozen prior to consumption.  Mentioned this to my know it all neighbor and he claims it is BS. Apparently his plans are to sell the meat at local farmers markets. This scares me more than the thought of botulism.  One could argue that you can buy his products and just freeze them yourself. But not everyone knows about how pork should be frozen. Not to mention if any one seen the way there land is kept it might make them wonder if everything was sanitary when the pigs were butchered. 
I consider myself lucky to have never even had a mild case of food poisoning.  I do my best to keep things clean and to adhere to the basic food safety rules. That being said I do feel some folks are more than a bit paranoid about things.....like my prior comment about stale smoke. To a point some of this is common sense.


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm calling BS on that 30 days frozen deal. But I live down the road from a pig farmer so ill ask him tonight.


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## bluewhisper (Apr 2, 2015)

Here's an article I wrote about bacteria

http://www.ehow.com/about_6399278_definition-anaerobic-aerobic-bacteria.html


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## daveomak (Apr 2, 2015)

inkjunkie said:


> Have a neighbor that claims to be a farmer. His plans are to strike it rich by raising/slaughtering pigs. After joining here I seen it mentioned that ALL pork needs to spend 30 days frozen prior to consumption.  Mentioned this to my know it all neighbor and he claims it is BS. Apparently his plans are to sell the meat at local farmers markets. This scares me more than the thought of botulism.  One could argue that you can buy his products and just freeze them yourself. But not everyone knows about how pork should be frozen. Not to mention if any one seen the way there land is kept it might make them wonder if everything was sanitary when the pigs were butchered.
> I consider myself lucky to have never even had a mild case of food poisoning.  I do my best to keep things clean and to adhere to the basic food safety rules. That being said I do feel some folks are more than a bit paranoid about things.....like my prior comment about stale smoke. To a point some of this is common sense.




On several occasions, I have noted it is best and recommended to freeze wild pigs for 30 days at zero or below to kill trichinosis...   

Dave


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## wade (Apr 2, 2015)

fpmich said:


> My question was why so much emphasis put on botulism safety over all others.  There are other bug-a-boos in meat that can make us sick and even die from too.
> 
> I think the chance of getting food poisoning from them is much more prevalent, than botulism.


I think there are several reasons for this. One is the fear of the unknown. With some strains of botulinum there is little evidence when it is present in the food and it is not unusual for a certain amount of additional paranoia to manifest itself when a potential danger is "invisible". Another is that, although it is rare, the results of infection can be devastating. 

Most of the over emphasis in the forums though I think is due to a certain amount of ignorance, often brought on by fear, by those who do not really understand what botulinum it is and how easy it is to prevent. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing and can lead to elements of truth being extrapolated to extremes.

In practice Botulinum is unlikely to be a problem when hot smoking foods as the toxin and spores are quickly broken down at temperatures below those usually found in the smoker. The risks of botulism due to previously punctured meat when smoked are also minimal for the same reasons. When shelf life testing vac pack products that are stored above 3 C in the UK, the government guidelines are that if no botulinum growth controlling factors are applied then the shelf life of the product has to be restricted to _10 days*_. Bearing this timescale in mind, any increased risks of botulism whilst the meat is cooking in the smoker for a relatively short period of time are going to be negligible. 

Where the risks of botulinum are increased are when food is stored in low oxygen environments for extended periods without any growth controlling factors (low pH, heat treatment, water activity < 0.97, high salt or added preservative). This is usually in canned/bottled foods, some air dried products or foods that have no controlling factors applied.


dcarch said:


> *Yes, absolutely “When in doubt, throw it out”*, don't take chances, but make sure you really read the whole concept of food safety recommendations and only apply the relevant guidelines to your own situation, IMHO.


Absolutely, “When in doubt, throw it out” however the more you learn about food safety the less "doubt" that you will have in a given situation. When preparing food commercially there should be no deviation from USDA (or UK FSA over here) standards, however with a good understanding of the principles of food safety, when cooking at home you can take informed decisions as to when a risk moves from being negligible to becoming a potential threat.

* This only refers to botulinum safety. Other factors may require a product to have a shorter shelf life.


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## cueinco (Apr 2, 2015)

As a FYI, some folks may not know that infused oils are also a danger. If you like to drop some garlic in olive oil and leave it sitting on the table, you may be in for a nasty surprise. Here's a safety bulletin for University of Maine that discusses the topic.  http://umaine.edu/publications/4385e/

I had lots of extra basil at the end of the summer a few years ago. I mixed it with garlic and olive oil and stored it on the pantry shelf. I used it for several months. After reading about the danger of doing what I did, I not only felt stupid but also lucky that I didn't hurt my wife and kids. Needless to say, I've never done that again. 

I was naive as to the danger. When I mentioned it to a much older friend, he remembered folks that died of botulism when he was a kid. They were coal miners who canned lots of food for the winter. Much of the meat and fish they canned were packed in oil or lard. Seems like folks dying of botulism wasn't that uncommon in our little town.


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## pineywoods (Apr 2, 2015)




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## timberjet (Apr 2, 2015)

Thank you Wade for helping people to understand why we do what we do. Anyone that has had it knows they don't want to get it again or accidentally teach someone else the wrong way and hurt their family. I was sick for a long time and nearly lost some internal organs. Thank goodness I was in my early twentys and had a strong immune system.


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## dcarch (Apr 2, 2015)

Pineywoods said:


>


And you worry about your little thermometer probe? *B*y law, they do not have to tell you that your meat has been treated this way.

dcarch


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## timberjet (Apr 2, 2015)

dcarch said:


> And you worry about your little thermometer probe?
> 
> dcarch



That equipment and the sterilization of it is super highly regulated by the FDA. I have been told by pops it is safe. Unlike the home injector or prober. You can sterilize your needle and probe but how do you sterilize the outside of the meat carch?


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 2, 2015)

timberjet said:


> That equipment and the sterilization of it is super highly regulated by the FDA. I have been told by pops it is safe. Unlike the home injector or prober. You can sterilize your needle and probe but how do you sterilize the outside of the meat carch?


How do they (meat plant) sterilize the meat?


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## dcarch (Apr 2, 2015)

timberjet said:


> That equipment and the sterilization of it is super highly regulated by the FDA. I have been told by pops it is safe. Unlike the home injector or prober. You can sterilize your needle and probe but how do you sterilize the outside of the meat carch?


And so do Hospitals. They are more highly regulated than any other types of facilities.

Yet you know the statistics of people getting sick from being in the hospital.

I sterilize meat (cold smoke, sous vide, etc) by dipping the meat in boiling water for a few seconds or torch quickly.

dcarch


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 2, 2015)

CueInCO said:


> As a FYI, some folks may not know that infused oils are also a danger. If you like to drop some garlic in olive oil and leave it sitting on the table, you may be in for a nasty surprise. Here's a safety bulletin for University of Maine that discusses the topic.  http://umaine.edu/publications/4385e/
> 
> I had lots of extra basil at the end of the summer a few years ago. I mixed it with garlic and olive oil and stored it on the pantry shelf. I used it for several months. After reading about the danger of doing what I did, I not only felt stupid but also lucky that I didn't hurt my wife and kids. Needless to say, I've never done that again.
> 
> I was naive as to the danger. When I mentioned it to a much older friend, he remembered folks that died of botulism when he was a kid. They were coal miners who canned lots of food for the winter. Much of the meat and fish they canned were packed in oil or lard. Seems like folks dying of botulism wasn't that uncommon in our little town.


If you grew up in CO (screen name hint) you grew in the state the 4th most cases of foodborne Botulism poisoning between 1950-1996- 30 cases (about half fatal 15).
About 14% were caused by meat products-if we keep the proportions 2-3 people died from bot poisoning due to consumption of meat products in Colorado between 1950-1996. 
This season alone 5 children have died in Colorado from flu complications.


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## cueinco (Apr 2, 2015)

I've been in CO for 30 years, but I didn't grow up here. My old-timer friend was talking about when he was a kid in the 1930's. During the Depression, I guess a lot of folks were canning food and doing whatever they could to get by. He remembered folks getting sick from botulism. Based on the numbers you reported, I wonder if the altitude has something to do with it. 

My friend (he'd be 90+ if he was still alive) also remembered jackrabbit roundups.  All the adults and kids would go out of town into farmers' fields to drive jackrabbits into the center of the field and then club them. They'd load all the rabbits into the back of a city dumptruck and haul them back to town. They'd dump them into the middle of Main Street and let whoever wanted them come and collect them. He remembered all "the old widows" would come down and collect rabbits. The Social Safety Net of the 1930s. 

I guess if you couple questionable meat with desperate processes, the end result may be dangerous.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 4, 2015)




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## chef jimmyj (Apr 5, 2015)

As far as the OP, Yes Botulism is rare but it EASILY multiplies under the conditions of Smoking, Curing and Canning. It is extremely dangerous and where virtually all the more common bugs will give you a couple of days of Gastric Distress, the Toxin of Clostridium Botulinum is more likely to cause severe problems including paralyze or kill you. Many types of bacteria are all controlled in the same manner. So whether talking about CB, Salmonella, Ecoli or others, the rules of Safe Food Handling are the same and when we talk about one, we are educating on controlling all.

It is important to understand as much as possible about food safety so we can catch most of the problems before one or two mistakes has a severe outcome. If we know the possible issues and the fix, there will be very, very few circumstances where food has to be tossed out...JJ


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## foamheart (Apr 5, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> As far as the OP, Yes Botulism is rare but it EASILY multiplies under the conditions of Smoking, Curing and Canning. It is extremely dangerous and where virtually all the more common bugs will give you a couple of days of Gastric Distress, the Toxin of Clostridium Botulinum is more likely to cause severe problems including paralyze or kill you. Many types of bacteria are all controlled in the same manner. So whether talking about CB, Salmonella, Ecoli or others, the rules of Safe Food Handling are the same and when we talk about one, we are educating on controlling all.
> 
> It is important to understand as much as possible about food safety so we can catch most of the problems before one or two mistakes has a severe outcome. If we know the possible issues and the fix, there will be very, very few circumstances where food has to be tossed out...JJ


Thats a damn good point, all the things we do are involved with it, whereas all the commercial production is geared now to avoid any chances.

Really Good point Chef!


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## fpmich (Apr 6, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *Chef JimmyJ*
> 
> 
> There are no Black and White rules to smoking only PROVEN guidelines developed over many generations of trial and error, that will limit the risks. In general...No single or multiple occurrences of bacterial contamination from Probing and Injecting etc, alone will kill you. Nor will things like closing down the exhaust (all smokers are different) to limit oxygen. IF the smoker temp drops below 200°F for a couple hours, no big deal or IF it takes my meat 6 hours to get above 140°F, It does not matter....Food Poisoning is the result of Gross Mishandling or Multiple mistakes. If you probe or inject and and only one thing goes wrong, it takes 6 hours to get to an IT of 140°, there is no reason to panic. As long as we learn under what circumstances Bacteria can harm us, learn how to manage the situation and limit to only one mistake
> ...


Thank you Chef JJ.

So are you saying that if we follow the guidelines for botulism safety, we are also eliminating all, or most, other bugs as well?  Such as Listeria, salmonella, and E.Coli?

And are there times we can go less on guidelines, for foods such as cured jerky, or cold, or semi-cold smoked, fish (below 165* finish temp?


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## fpmich (Apr 6, 2015)

Dave, I'm surprised at your responses.

You, other than Pops, above all, should know how much I want to be safe, from our conservations of the last year or so, on how to calculate cures.


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## daveomak (Apr 6, 2015)

fpmich said:


> Dave, I'm surprised at your responses.
> You, other than Pops, above all, should know how much I want to be safe, from our conservations of the last year or so, on how to calculate cures.




Your question seemed to imply....   precautions were not necessary due to the infrequency folks got botulism....    

Anyway, that's the way I interpreted your question.......


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## fpmich (Apr 6, 2015)

Yeah, I know Dave,

My fault.  Read up to post # 75.

But even in my 1st post, I stated I was not saying, nor implying to ignore safety guidelines.

I always try to come in under the safety mark.  But if I go over just a bit, I'm not tossing it.  I just won't give it away to others.

This forum has given more info on food safety than I ever thought existed, and I have learned much and follow that.  My question was why Bot warnings over all others.  But I didn't phrase it that way,  My fault.

No sweat my friend.  These things happen on the net.


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## daveomak (Apr 6, 2015)

No problem.....   all is OK.....


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 8, 2015)

fpmich said:


> Thank you Chef JJ.
> 
> So are you saying that if we follow the guidelines for botulism safety, we are also eliminating all, or most, other bugs as well?  Such as Listeria, salmonella, and E.Coli?
> 
> And are there times we can go less on guidelines, for foods such as cured jerky, or cold, or semi-cold smoked, fish (below 165* finish temp?


Frank, your " Why CB? ", question is valid. We are pointing out that while the incidence of infection is low, the impact can be great. Additionally the CB bacteria is very common in basic soil. This is why proper canning of veggies is so critical. Cross contamination from produce to meat can happen as well. The reason we don't have greater numbers of out breaks is because fortunately, we don't often have a set of multiple mistakes/malfunctions take place and thorough cooking can degrade the toxin.

Each different type of bacteria has it's unique condition for growth outside the basic living conditions common to many animals. Some like Oxygen, some no oxygen, some tolerate salt and acid others not so much. Fortunately the general conditions for bacterial growth overlap to a great extent. Bacteria needs Warm Temps, 40 to 140°F. There are exceptions but in general bacteria growth slows or stops at temps below 40 and with the exception of Spore forming bacteria like CB, are killed at about 140°F, less if held at a steady temp for a longer time period. Bacteria needs Food, meat protein provides a great growth medium for most bacteria. Bacteria need Moisture. Any time we can limit available moisture bacterial growth is limited. Drying meat, cooking meat, using Salt / Sugar heavy rubs will bind available moisture and can even suck moisture out of the bacteria cells killing them. Most bacteria like a Ph close to neutral. Vinegar based marinades and sauces can extend shelf life, Fermented Dry Cured sausages like Salami are made of raw meat but the reduction of water through drying and the higher acidity caused by fermentation lets us store at room temps for months. Bacteria needs Time to Grow. This is why we can have time to prep our meat or use the " 4 Hour " guideline when smoking meat that has had the surface broken.. When you pull a Butt out of the refer going to a room temp of 72°F the bacteria will take between 2 and 6 hours to wake up and get multiplying. So by following general rules of sanitation and safe food handling we can control almost all growth of bacteria that can cause harm.

Now these are " Guidelines " so yes if you know EXACTLY what you are doing, you know the quality of your meat and how it was handled AND there are no additional problems during the cook, you can push the limits. Being a Moderator and following the Forum policy dictates that we follow USDA Guidelines including, temp and time limits and additive percentages, etc Is an injected Turkey safe upon reaching an IT of 140 in 3 hours and 59 minutes but absolutely Deadly if it took 4 hours and 30 minutes? NO that is silly! However...Was that Turkey processed in an facility that has more health violations than employees? Was it shipped cross country in a box car without refrigeration? Was that bird sitting at the bottom of a refer display case at <38 °or was it 3 feet in the air in an overfilled display? Was the bird defrosted over a couple of days in the refer or garage at <38°F or did it spend 24 hours on a counter during a balmy 75° Louisiana Wednesday leading up to Thanksgiving? These examples might sound extreme but are very common. I spent a couple years answering a Thanksgiving Help Line and working at grocery stores and have seen ALL these examples. Now the CRAZY Part...If any ONE of those things happened to that Turkey AND the rest of the cook goes without a single failure including smoking no larger than a 12-14 pound bird, smoking at a temp over 225, and smoking to a uniform IT of 165-175°F verified with a tested true Thermometer...The Bird was probably perfectly safe to eat and Grandma or Grandpa got rave reviews on another tasty TG Turkey....Happens all the time and NO I am not advocating cooking a mishandled bird, just puttin' out the facts...JJ


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## fpmich (Apr 9, 2015)

Thanks Dave, and  Chef JJ.

Chef, yes I know.  My biggest worry now, is how meat was handled/processed before it got to me.  It didn't used to be that way.

Since our country went to big corporate companies processing, we lost our small butchers, when meat had much shorter times between killing. processing and selling.  And we could talk to people locally about how which butcher/processor handled their meat.  Heck, you may have even known the farmers that raised it!  Using that info we could make up our own mind on who to use, and for what.

*Today, we don't have that option in most of the country.  It's a crap shoot now.*

If I could raise, slaughter, and process all my own meat, I would, but I can't.

Then all I would need is common sense.  Not gov't guidelines to protect me from today's commercially raised.processed meat.  And the inspections ( when they actually happen)  aren't always safe either.  A few hundred bucks goes a LONG ways toward passing inspection.

*I learned about inspections, from a building contractor years ago.*   A few hundred dollars left in a closet, would guarantee inspection passing.  He didn't get to do that a couple of times, and got failed inspections.  He called inspecting office in 2 days, to say violations had been corrected, but all he had done was leave the money in a closet, and make sure he was not in the room.  He never changed one single thing.   But then passed inspection.  True story.

Today we are so removed from the raising. slaughtering, and processing, that it is pathetic.

*I grew up on "Gut Barrel Meat"* as my dad called it.

He called it, that to put people off,  who looked down on him, or his job.

He drove truck for a company that gathered dead cows, horses, guts, and etc. from both farmers and meat packers  They would process it into either dog food or soap, depending. They also salted and used the hides.  Dad's place of work stank to the high heaven in summer time, and even in winter.  Always dead farm animals, both whole, or cut up lying around.  I still remember the BIG screw they would use to grind the whole animal into smaller pieces, which were then placed into open top barrels to be trucked to their processing plant in, or near Detroit Michigan.

It amazed me that such a large screw could reduce a whole cow into small pieces,

*Anyone from Michigan, remember Valley Chemical or Wayne Soap company?*   Wayne Soap bought out Valley Chemical.

That's who Dad worked for until he retired.

However every week or two, he would be assigned to the gravy train route for a day or so.  Picking up outdated meat from grocery stores or butcher shops. 

And that is what we grew up on.  The stores would separate the stuff that actually were safe for another week or more, and give to the drivers to take home.  Outdated by gov't guidelines, yes.  Safe to use quickly, yes!

We never ran out of pickled bologna.  EVER!  LOL 

And many of times Mom would can right away a bunch of beef, pork, chickens and what have you.

She never knew when she had to can meat, until the old man brought home a bunch of something.

That was life in the 40's, 50's and even into the early 60's.

With 8 kids and a low paying job, I doubt we would've had enough meat to eat to be healthy, without this happening.

I know for a fact, that before Dad got that job, the family had many weeks of meatless meals. 

One Thanksgiving, the bird was a Pheasant that hit his windshield!

While driving an old black pastor friend home, dad had complained that there was no way for us to have a turkey for Thanksgiving.  Dad felt really bad about it.  The old pastor replied, "Have faith son, the Lord will provide."  At that time, Dad was not religious at all, so he just grunted. LOL

Shortly after that statement, they hit the bird.  Family had Pheasant for Thanksgiving!

*Sorry for my rant.*   But now you all know where I am coming from.

With today's commercially processed meat, would I be so trusting?  NO WAY!

Peace to all.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 9, 2015)

Those are great stories man but I think I will skip breakfast today after reading them.


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## fpmich (Apr 9, 2015)

Yep.  That's why dad always called it gut barrel meat.  Cut down on people asking for some for themselves.  More for our family.  LOL

I'm going to take a wild guess  and say you are younger than 55. <smile>


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 9, 2015)

Between mandatory military service, forced labor camps and university cafeteria I had my share of meatless days (still do), mistery meats and maggots crawling out of macaronis. It wasn't the "outdated meat" I commented on but picturing the bloated dead animal carcasses , the stench and the giant grinder.

People looked down on your dad? Fools. I guess different times, different mentalities.
Today your dad would have his own reality show.


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## fpmich (Apr 10, 2015)

Ha Ha @ reality show! 

You're right.  That guy on "Dirty Jobs" program,  wouldn't have lasted a day at Dad's job.

For those of weak stomachs, I appologize and should mention that the saved meat for drivers was always separated from the bad, and put into clean waxed meat boxes for them to take home.

*Okay now I'm off topic again, so I guess this thread has run it's useful course.*

Thanks for all the replies.  Some were very helpful, as well as some PM's sent to me.  Thank you all.


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## hillbillyrkstr (Apr 22, 2015)

Botsulism is in the news in Ohio. Not good.


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## cueinco (Apr 29, 2015)

Interesting. Sounds like the culprit was home-canned potatoes. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/...obably-caused-botulism-outbreak/#.VUD8yc55ras

I've seen store-bought canned potatoes but I never have heard of folks canning their own. I thought you normally just kept potatoes in the root cellar for the winter.


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## daveomak (Apr 29, 2015)

I have canned potatoes, carrots, meats etc....   when hunting or fishing trips came along, everything was cooked...  just needed heating and dinner was done in 5 minutes....


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## foamheart (Apr 29, 2015)

I have three full freezers and three huge reefers all full because Ziploc is easier than canning. So when you lose electyricity like we do during hurricanes, you lose everything unless you have a generator. Folks used to can and store in the root/storm cellars and there is a fair sized movement yet today that is back canning again. Usually the wives of the men who have decided to be gentlemen farmers..... LOL

I will garamntee you that there is no less than 1000 quart, pint, and jelly jars in the barns though, and all have been used.

As with curing, smoking, driving, canning has a very difinate set of rules which must be followed.

Its like the butker in the whodoneit books, its always the tater salad!

Oh and a BTW, to my knowledge root veggies don't freeze.....I am talking aboutv hone freezering not commercial flash freezers.


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## cueinco (Apr 29, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> I have canned potatoes, carrots, meats etc.... when hunting or fishing trips came along, everything was cooked... just needed heating and dinner was done in 5 minutes....


I guess the advantage in this case was that you could make the potato salad straight out of the can/jar without having to re-cook or re-heat the potatoes. It also would explain how the situation ended up as bad as it did.


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## daveomak (Apr 29, 2015)

CueInCO said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > I have canned potatoes, carrots, meats etc.... when hunting or fishing trips came along, everything was cooked... just needed heating and dinner was done in 5 minutes....
> ...



I'm lost.... what does that mean...


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## cueinco (Apr 29, 2015)

Well, one person is dead and and as of yesterday 12 were still hospitalized. In my book, that counts as a bad situation. It's only a guess but I'd figure that if you had started with raw potatoes and cooked them in order to make the potato salad, the event may not have occurred.


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## daveomak (Apr 29, 2015)

CueInCO said:


> Well, one person is dead and and as of yesterday 12 were still hospitalized. In my book, that counts as a bad situation. It's only a guess but I'd figure that if you had started with raw potatoes and cooked them in order to make the potato salad, the event may not have occurred.



Did they use home canned potatoes ????


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## cueinco (Apr 29, 2015)

Yes. They used home-canned potatoes to make the potato salad. That's what's being blamed.  Hence, the link above. 

 http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/...obably-caused-botulism-outbreak/#.VUD8yc55ras


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## daveomak (Apr 29, 2015)

Just goes to show you......   Treat the possibility of botulism with respect.....    Do ALL you can do to be safety concise and follow directions....     If they didn't get the pressure cooker up to pressure and temp, including taking into account altitude, they made a very serious mistake....   
Some folks think the guidelines the USDA puts out are "fear mongering"....


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## foamheart (Apr 29, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Just goes to show you...... Treat the possibility of botulism with respect..... Do ALL you can do to be safety concise and follow directions.... If they didn't get the pressure cooker up to pressure and temp, including taking into account altitude, they made a very serious mistake....
> Some folks think the guidelines the USDA puts out are "fear mongering"....


Ya think maybe they did a bath instead of a pressure cook?


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## daveomak (Apr 29, 2015)

Foamheart said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > Just goes to show you...... Treat the possibility of botulism with respect..... Do ALL you can do to be safety concise and follow directions.... If they didn't get the pressure cooker up to pressure and temp, including taking into account altitude, they made a very serious mistake....
> ...



They could have.... or their pressure gauge wasn't calibrated...  or they didn't allow for elevation...  or they reduced the time at 250 deg F...  OR.... or   ....... 

The recipe I read a bit ago said, "pre boil the spuds and hot pack them"....  

I think you can water bath them but the time to hold at a boil is something like 12 hours.....   

Kind of like the pasteurizing tables I put up....   long time at low temp give the results of high temp short time....    

The USDA has taken many steps to verify all this stuff so food is safe....


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## cueinco (Apr 29, 2015)

The sad thing is, someone thought everything was "okay" but never had any idea that they'd be killing somebody. It's just a very sad situation. Food safety isn't something to screw around with. You may kill yourself, which maybe is okay, but how do you explain killing your kids or grandkids, or someone else that trusted you. It just sucks.


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