# Cleaning up your act - clean smoke is delicious smoke!



## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

I was ready to put my 30” analog MasterBuilt Electric Smoker (MES) on the curb for big trash day.  I couldn’t get good amounts of smoke unless I was cooking over 250 degrees, and then the smoke I got was harsh and made my food taste like a fireplace.  I got on the forums and read about tray type smoke generators.  They allow you to remove the chips that are dependent on the element for heat and use pellets or dust that slowly smolders.  This seemed like a great fix, so I picked one up.  I couldn’t get it to stay lit, and the pellets would swell up from all the moisture in the MES.  Not a fix after all I thought.  But since it was winter I wanted to try it for cold smoking and see how that worked.  I put some cheese on the top two racks of the smoker and put the generator in the bottom on top of the element.  The smoker was unplugged just to make sure no accidents happened.  I let the cheese smoke for one hour.  Here is what greeted me when I opened the door













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I took out the cheese and good grief was it disgusting!  It tasted extremely bitter and made my tongue tingle.  This is like sucking on a charcoal briquette...who in their right mind wanted to eat this stuff?!?  I know you're supposed to let it age, but how do you age flavor this bad out of something as lightly flavored as cheese?

Back to the forums I went.  The 30” analog MES very little ventilation.  There is a small hole in the top right back corner of the body, and a small hole in the middle of the bottom that is designed to allow grease to flow into a catch pan.  Here you can see the top hole:













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The door also seals rather loosely, and provides for some airflow, but it isn’t enough.  You can see the smoke seeping out and the creosote left from smoke on the door:













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The higher model MES all have a chip loading tray and a real vent at the top that you can adjust to provide good airflow.  This lack of airflow seemed to be a likely cause of my problems, so I cut a 3” hole into the top of the MES and a 3” hole right above the chip pan.  Now I was able to keep the smoke generator lit on hot cooks and the flavor was much better than what I was getting with the MES chip pan.  I added a chimney to help it draft and tried cooking some chicken and a pork loin.  Both turned out pretty good!  I was happy with the improvement, so I tried to cold smoke some more cheese.  This time I put only a small amount of cheese in and tested it at 30 minutes instead of an hour.  NOPE!  That bitter taste was still there, it wasn't as bad as before, but it had only been 30 minutes.  Now I was getting really frustrated!  Back to the forums again. 

I found the mailbox mod which was supposed to help with cold smoking and looked promising.  I went and bought a mailbox, an 8 foot section of rigid aluminum flex duct, and two universal 90s.  I put it all together and gave it another shot with some more cheese.  This was noticeably better, but it still had that bitter taste and I thought that it might be the quality of the smoke I was generating.  It looked more white to me than blue.  I posted asking for help with getting thin blue smoke with my MES 30 with the mailbox mod.  Lucky for me Mr T read my post and shared some of his knowledge and experience with me.  He explained how cold smoking is different than hot smoking and you need to cool the smoke to get the nasty stuff like creosote out before it gets to your food.  He had me get a few sections of rigid pipe to lengthen the distance from the mailbox to the smoker.  Here is what it looked like:













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After adding 3 sections of pipe, I noticed a huge difference in the smoke flavor on some more test cheese.  Since I still had room for 2 more sections of pipe on the back of the smoker stand I added them.  Now instead of 8 feet of pipe I had 21, almost 3 times the distance of the original mod.  Here is the final product:













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Mr T advised me to use powdered pellets for my next cheese attempt, so I blended a bunch of pellets down to a fine powder and loaded that into the smoke generator.  The powder looks like this:













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This takes some effort to blend up, but it burns for a long time and makes a lite smoke, which can be very handy depending on the circumstances.  Another great tip from Mr T was to cut the cheese into 1 inch cubes so I could try them at different times.  Smart guy!  I loaded up the top rack with a bunch of 1 inch cubes and loaded the smoke generator filled with powder into the mailbox.  Every 30 minutes I pulled a cube out and tried it.  The difference in the smoke flavor was astounding!  I smoked for 8 straight hours that day, and even though the 8 hour cubes of cheese were more smoky than I personally care for, they had NO bitterness whatsoever!  I was amazed!  Almost everything I had read before said that you had to age smoked cheese to make it edible, but not if you do it this way!  This stuff was delicious right out of the smoker!  After tasting the cheese I went cold smoking crazy and tried nuts, goldfish crackers, cheesits, boiled eggs, salt, pepper, butter, potatoes, and of course…more cheese.  I cold smoked everything I could get my hands on, and it all came out stellar and was ready to eat right out of the smoker!  I told Mr T how happy I was with the results and thanking him for helping me fix my smoker instead of trashing it.  He suggested I pass along the information to help others, which I was more than happy to do.  So I did some tests.  The tests were designed to show what was happening at each stage of my build, and why the final build works so well.

For the first test I wanted to show how the analog MES30 performed with a smoke generator and no modifications.  In order to do this I simply put tape over the holes I had cut into the MES, removed the tape from the factory holes,  loaded a lit tray full of pellets on the element, and put a ziplock baggie half filled with water on the middle rack.  This test proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the stock analog 30” MES does not have enough airflow.  The pellets burned for 19 hours and 23 minutes!  The extra time is because they didn't get enough airflow.  Here is what the tray looked like:













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you can see the black pellet remains.  They didn't burn completely.  And notice that even the ash is covered with creosote?  Here is what the ziplock baggie looked like:













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Absolutely disgusting!  No wonder I didn’t like my first attempt at cheese!  The bag is extremely sticky, like sticking your finger in molasses.  This nasty stuff covered everything in my smoker, so I turned it to high and burned it off for an hour.  I have never smelt anything so foul as the junk coming out of the smoker on this burn off!  It was absolutely foul!  After it stopped burning off I let it cool down and moved to the next test.

For the second test I loaded a full tray of pellets into the generator and placed it on the element of the MES, un-taped the ventilation holes I had cut into the MES body, taped up the stock hole, and put a fresh ziplock of water on a clean middle rack.  This time the pellets burned for 12 hours 9 minutes.  That's more like it!

This was a marked improvement over the first test, and should be extremely similar to what any of the higher end model MES users out there should expect.  Actually, this might be a little better, because I had nothing covering the holes at all, just two wide open 3"' holes.  Here is the ziplock it produced:













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This is still very tacky, but not as bad as the 'molasses' like substance that covered the first baggie.  This was more like paint that is only a few minutes old and isn’t dry yet.  As soon as your finger touches it you are stuck.  It also smells horrible and acrid, like a camp fire.  Once again I needed to burn off all the junk from the smoker.  Another hour on high did the trick.  It was really gross this time, but not as bad as the first test.  I let it cool down and proceeded to the next test.

For the third test I put a full tray of pellets in the smoke generator and loaded it in the mailbox.  So this time it starting in the mailbox and going through 21 feet of 3” pipe.  This time the generator burned for 9 hours 58 minutes.  Here is the ziplock:













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Now we are getting somewhere!  As you can see, the smoke has been cleaned a lot by the long run of piping.  This bag is only very slightly tacky, like paint that is almost completely dry.  If you touch it and immediately move your finger it doesn’t feel tacky at all, but leave your finger there a moment and it tries to stick to you a little bit.  The bag smells like smoke, but it is like the smell of smoke on your clothes after a hot smoke, not acrid like a camp fire .  I turned on the burner for an hour after this test just like I did after previous tests, but almost nothing came out this time. Clean smoke leaves a clean smoker!

For the fourth and fifth tests I used powdered pellets and two ziplock baggies.  Both baggies go in at the beginning of the test, but one gets removed at 9 hours and 58 minutes, the same amount of time that the pellets burned for in the third test.  This shows us the difference in smoke produced by powder vs pellets.  The other baggie goes the distance.  The tray smoke generator is fully loaded with powder and loaded into the mailbox.  The powder burned for 15 hours 36 minutes.  That's 56% longer than the pellets, but at a lower smoke density.  Here is the baggie that went the distance:













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And here is the baggie that got pulled at 9 hours 58 minutes, the same time as the pellets lasted:













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The baggies confirm that powder gives you a lighter smoke than pellets do for the same amount of time, but it burns longer so you can play with those variables.

Here are the baggies all together, starting with the bottom left and going counter clockwise you have 1[sup]st[/sup]  test- no mods, 2[sup]nd[/sup]  test – ventilation, 3[sup]rd[/sup]  test – mailbox with pellets, 4[sup]th[/sup]  test powder – full 15 hours 36 minutes, 4[sup]th[/sup]  test powder – 9 hours 58 minutes.













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Here is another pic that shows the drastic difference between a tray type smoke generator loaded with pellets inside the stock MES vs inside the mailbox mod with 21 feet of pipe:













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So, what can we gather from these tests?  The primary result is that, for cold smoking at least, you need to clean your smoke!  Not only do creosote and tar taste and smell bad, they probably aren’t very good for you either.  I know I don’t want to put that stuff in my mouth, much less feed it to my family!  A secondary result is that powder burns slower than pellets, providing less smoke for a longer period of time.  So the decision to use pellets or powder depends on how much smoke you want, and how quickly you want it to be applied.  It also stands to reason that the smaller the volume of smoke, the more it will be cleaned by the system.  Another arrow for your quiver.

I haven’t tested the system on hot smokes yet, but that is something I plan to do as soon as the weather warms up and my window for cold smoking has closed on me.  For now I’m socking up the larder with delicious cold smoked foods!

I hope this helps save someone the trouble and frustration I went through.  I went from being extremely frustrated and ready to toss my MES to turning out AMAZING cold smoked food.  A huge THANK YOU goes out to Mr T for taking the time to walk me through the piping mod.  I'm sure there is more modding in my future, and I'll update you guys with the results of those mods too.  This is a great community here that is happy to share information and I am proud to be a part of it.  The willingness to share experiences and keep an open mind are HUGE advantages of this group, and something you don't find often.  You also went out of your way to make me feel welcome and I really appreciate that.  Good luck to you all, and happy smoking!!!

Edit #1.  I calculated the cost for the mailbox mod as shown above = $54.  The company I work for has an account with a heating and air supply company, so that may be a bit cheaper than a hardware store would be.

Edit #2.  Here is a link to my first thread where I asked for help and began modding my MES:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/243192/cant-get-tbs-while-cold-smoking-with-mes-30-and-amnps


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## b-one (Mar 20, 2016)

Thanks for sharing your results!


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

Sure b-one, I'm happy to give back to the forum.  I hope it helps someone out!


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## bauchjw (Mar 20, 2016)

Great job using the science experiment to explain what I covered in my post! The bags are quantitative proof of the qualitative taste. Excellent post, great build, thank you for the time you spent on it!


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

Thanks bauchjw.  

BTW, I still have my cheese fail aging in my kegorator.  I call it creosote cheese.  It was the cheese you can barely see in the first picture of this thread.  My wife wanted me to trash it, but I couldn't stand throwing away 6lbs of cheese without giving it a chance.  I cut 1/8" off each side of each block to remove the creosote and vacuum packed it. Time will tell!


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## bauchjw (Mar 20, 2016)

Haha! At least you could rescue some of your fail! Those creosote days are long gone now though. I'm looking forward to seeing more!
Great job, 
Jed


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## gearjammer (Mar 20, 2016)

Great job man, thanks for all the effort put in to 

do all the experiments.

Also for the time and effort put in to document it 

all in your very informative post.

Keep on smokin'                           Ed


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## mosparky (Mar 20, 2016)

Looking forward to see how this works for hot smokes. The mod looks cool as .... Bravo. Any details how you pulverized the pellets. I envision a very PO'd she-beast if I ruinate her kitchen blender trying this.


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## bauchjw (Mar 20, 2016)

mosparky said:


> Looking forward to see how this works for hot smokes. The mod looks cool as .... Bravo. Any details how you pulverized the pellets. I envision a very PO'd she-beast if I ruinate her kitchen blender trying this.



I use a 15 dollar coffee grinder from Wal-mart for spices. That would probably do the trick!


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

mosparky said:


> Looking forward to see how this works for hot smokes. The mod looks cool as .... Bravo. Any details how you pulverized the pellets. I envision a very PO'd she-beast if I ruinate her kitchen blender trying this.


Ha!  You aren't kidding!  I am using the 'old' blender that she replaced with a 'Ninja'.  It's called a Hamilton Beach Wave Action.  I just put a couple of handfuls of pellets in and let'r rip.  The 'wave action' on this thing keeps pulling the pellets, then dust, then powder down into the blades.  it takes a while, but it works.


bauchjw said:


> I use a 15 dollar coffee grinder from Wal-mart for spices. That would probably do the trick!


This is exactly what I was thinking would work really well!  Could you post a pic of the powder that it gives you?


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 20, 2016)

Great post, Good info, presented well...JJ


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## bauchjw (Mar 20, 2016)

I've only used it for spices, I haven't moved to pellets. I can grind up some peppercorns if you'd like to see it? However, the grinder I got can go really fine. Before it became my spice grinder I would use it for different coffee bean textures depending on how I was brewing. It can get extremely fine!


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

Gearjammer said:


> Great job man, thanks for all the effort put in to
> 
> do all the experiments.
> 
> ...


Thank you!  I'm glad you found it helpful!


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

bauchjw said:


> I've only used it for spices, I haven't moved to pellets. I can grind up some peppercorns if you'd like to see it? However, the grinder I got can go really fine. Before it became my spice grinder I would use it for different coffee bean textures depending on how I was brewing. It can get extremely fine!


That's what I use mine for, doing different textures of coffee beans.  One day when I was grinding coffee I thought "hey, this would tear up some pellets!".  I'll pick up another one next time I'm at the store and report back on how it works.  Blending them to powder took about 20-30 minutes for a full tray load.  If you had a blender that was worth a darn it would probably go MUCH faster though.


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## setesh (Mar 20, 2016)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Great post, Good info, presented well...JJ


Thank you Chef!

Edit* Love the PC quote in your signature


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## SmokinAl (Mar 21, 2016)

Excellent post!!

Very informative!!

Very well written!!

Points to you!!

Al


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 21, 2016)

Thank you for a job well done. The information you have taken the time to accumulate these last couple of weeks will now last you through a lifetime of smoking food products. Regardless the equipment used, you can now see how each modification you make, affects the result. Your accomplishments have vaulted you to a very small percentile of smokers who can produce a very clean and smooth smoke at or just above ambient temperature.

 To up the ante even more, a couple more easy and inexpensive mods can be done. For the time being, enjoy what you have, we can work on the other mods later.

I hope that the information you have provided and the following will help others in their smoking ventures. Please follow the additional links in each link.

New to smoking or have a new smoker? -- "How to optimize your smoke"

Mr T


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## forluvofsmoke (Mar 21, 2016)

That's some impressive results! Took a bit of engineering to get a cold smoke you'll enjoy eating, but as Tom said, you'll have this knowledge for the rest of your life, and no one can take that away from you. Tom knows his stuff with smoke...I've learned a lot from him in the past couple of years myself.

Points for making good of Tom's advice and putting it to use for a great future in cold smoking...and looking ahead towards cleaning up you hot smokes as well!!!

I'll patiently await you updates.

Eric


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## ak1 (Mar 21, 2016)

Great job, and a great write up. Points!


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## setesh (Mar 21, 2016)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Thank you for a job well done. The information you have taken the time to accumulate these last couple of weeks will now last you through a lifetime of smoking food products. Regardless the equipment used, you can now see how each modification you make, affects the result. Your accomplishments have vaulted you to a very small percentile of smokers who can produce a very clean and smooth smoke at or just above ambient temperature.
> 
> To up the ante even more, a couple more easy and inexpensive mods can be done. For the time being, enjoy what you have, we can work on the other mods later.
> 
> ...


Thank you for teaching me how to do it!  My family and friends are loving it!


forluvofsmoke said:


> That's some impressive results! Took a bit of engineering to get a cold smoke you'll enjoy eating, but as Tom said, you'll have this knowledge for the rest of your life, and no one can take that away from you. Tom knows his stuff with smoke...I've learned a lot from him in the past couple of years myself.
> 
> Points for making good of Tom's advice and putting it to use for a great future in cold smoking...and looking ahead towards cleaning up you hot smokes as well!!!
> 
> ...


Thank you Eric!  I enjoy tinkering and building stuff, it is very zen for me. Tom is indeed a wealth of knowledge, and I'm more than happy to learn from his experience instead of learning the hard way!  I'm very interested to test the system on hot smokes and see what the differences are there.  I imagine there will also be tests of the additional mods Tom mentioned.


AK1 said:


> Great job, and a great write up. Points!


Thank you AK1


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## GaryHibbert (Mar 21, 2016)

Now that was a great post!!!!!!!!!!!!  You put a lot of time and effort into it, and presented the info collected beautifully.  

Thanks you very much.








------Well earned.

Gary


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## setesh (Mar 22, 2016)

GaryHibbert said:


> Now that was a great post!!!!!!!!!!!!  You put a lot of time and effort into it, and presented the info collected beautifully.
> 
> Thanks you very much.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary!


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## dls1 (Mar 22, 2016)

Very impressive post, Setesh. Your presentation was excellent.

It's a perfect example of a somewhat scientific method step by step approach to solving a problem which results in a validation of the very simple fact that, when it comes to cold smoking anything, the distance between the smoke generator and the smoking chamber makes a difference. A really big difference.

I also agree with you that when it comes to a subject such as this, Tom (Mr. T), knows what he's doing. He's the man, and it was nice that he was able to assist you.

Great job and keep up the good work.


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## setesh (Mar 23, 2016)

Thanks Gary!  


dls1 said:


> Very impressive post, Setesh. Your presentation was excellent.
> 
> It's a perfect example of a somewhat scientific method step by step approach to solving a problem which results in a validation of the very simple fact that, when it comes to cold smoking anything, the distance between the smoke generator and the smoking chamber makes a difference. A really big difference.
> 
> ...


Thanks dls1!  I'm very curious to do the same thing with hot smokes now and see what happens.  I'm bombarded with work projects right now, but I'll get to it!


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## setesh (Mar 26, 2016)

I did a strange smoke today that came out amazing....pizza!  I cranked the MES up to max and let it heat up, loaded a tray of Pitmaster's Choice pellets into the mailbox, and put a Digiorno pizzeria style margarita pizza on the top rack.  It took 20 minutes to bake at 300.  After taking it out I drizzled real white truffle oil onto it.  Good grief was it good!  I forgot to take a picture, it smelled and looked so good I just dug in!

With dinner over I let the smoker cool down a couple of hours while some cheese came up from fridge temp.













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I put half in the smoker and half in bags for another day.  I also threw in some cheese I forgot I had in the family fridge:













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I loaded a tray of powdered Pitmaster's Choice pellets into the mailbox and off we go!


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## bauchjw (Mar 26, 2016)

The addiction is compelling! I just did a batch for neighbors last night while restocking my own. Everyone eats it right away!

Pizza sounds amazing? I used to do a BBQ chicken pizza with smoked Gouda. I may have to go at it again!


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## jted (Apr 6, 2016)

THANK YOU!


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## daveomak (Apr 6, 2016)

Great thread....   Folks should go to school on your experiences...  There's a lot one can learn here.....


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## mauser (Apr 6, 2016)

a-f-o


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## setesh (Apr 6, 2016)

I just realized I never posted the 'after' pictures for the cheese.  I did two batches, one for 28 hours with powder, one for 25 hours with pellets and both ends of the tray lit.

1st half of the cheese smoked with Pitmaster's Choice pellets blended to powder for 28 hours:

**Edited to include pic of 1st half of cheese**













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I just pulled the cheese out of the fridge to take the picture.  Sadly, the mozzarella wasn't available for the photo as it is all gone.  Smoked fresh whole milk mozzarella is one of the most dangerous foods I have ever come across!  

2nd half of the cheese smoked with both ends of pellet tray lit for 25 hours:













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As you can see, the system cleans the smoke amazingly well.  That was 6lbs of pellets over 25 hours.  That is a LOT of smoke and the color buildup on the cheese is still pretty minor.


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## mr t 59874 (Apr 6, 2016)

Good job on your cheese, nice color.

Last weekend, I completed an 18-hour smoke over a three-day period on some five-year-old Tillamook sharp cheddar using cob pellets. Served some with dinner that evening, my wife took one bite and did not say a word, just smiled and took another.

Mr T


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## hoity toit (Apr 6, 2016)

Ok , here is my question on this post...'GUYs and GALs....Why "should" we have to make modifications on our store bought smokers? You would think the MFG's would pay attention to our Forum and make their products better using the mods that Bear and a few others here on SMF have implemented.. Makes me wonder if there is a market for a "SMF Smoker" ... Think about that one folks...just sayin. Todd??? take it to the next level.

I will be watching this thread as I am sure this will be read and replied by many of my SMF members.

HT


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## mr t 59874 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hoity Toit said:


> Ok , here is my question on this post...'GUYs and GALs....Why "should" we have to make modifications on our store bought smokers?
> 
> I will be watching this thread as I am sure this will be read and replied by many of my SMF members.
> 
> HT


Your question is like asking a hot rodder why he soups up his car? Answer, to make it run better. Many are satisfied with the smokers they have while others like to soup them up a bit.

Perhaps the following will help explain it a bit further.

What is going on with smoking cheese?

Mr T


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## hoity toit (Apr 6, 2016)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Your question is like asking a hot rodder why he soups up his car? Answer, to make it run better. Many are satisfied with the smokers they have while others like to soup them up a bit.
> 
> Perhaps the following will help explain it a bit further.
> 
> ...


what I am saying is for the regular person who buys a store bought smoker is why buy something you have to fix or tweak..I see where you are going on this and that was not my intent.

HT


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## mr t 59874 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hoity Toit said:


> what I am saying is for the regular person who buys a store bought smoker is why buy something you have to fix or tweak..I see where you are going on this and that was not my intent.
> 
> HT


HT, it would be my guess that increased cost would be a big factor. I see where you are going also, but the manufacturers have to draw the line somewhere. Although on your line of thought, they could offer the mods themselves or for cold smoking suggest using a smoke generator of any type and a cardboard box.

T


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## weensnbeans (Jun 23, 2016)

@Hoity Toit: I here you. Now that I have my smoker I'm all about getting it to run to perfection. I like the basic floor model and it does a good job for what I would assume the masses use it for - but I am looking to expand my WSM to be a cold smoker too. I'm not a metal fabricator so I'll have to get creative so I don't ruin my smoker (or get a buddy to come over) if I decide to run smoke pipes. I've seen videos and read posts where people have filled their water bowl and froze it to ensure a cold smoke (or just add ice and keep adding ice).

I've seen the mods for the WSM and they all make sense - better door, wheels, lid hinge, chamber expanders, etc.

I haven't done much research on different smokers but I would imagine that everybody has their own style and taste and preference. I would imagine that I will use this smoker and customize for the things I smoke and if a better smoker becomes available based on the needs - I'll consider upgrading.

However, (and I don't know if this is a true statement or not because I am a noob) but I would like to think that there is (or perhaps in the future -- let's talk some business here!) a company would create a versatile smoking box that would be so basic and inexpensive that it was developed to be customized. A simple fire chamber, a simple water bowl chamber (if you want one), a chamber for a rack (which you can stack multiple chambers), a tall chamber that would allow for hanging sausages or sticks, chambers with windows, vents built with the ability to remove them and attach a blower fan, cold smoker pipes,etc.

@Setesh and others - I've seen other posts with a long run of tube with a slight incline for the smoke to rise uphill to fill the chamber... I like the idea of the compact tubing in this thread that requires a smaller footprint! Was a blower used from the mailbox or was the heat generated from the mailbox enough to push the smoke up, around, and down (many times) through the smoke tube to get into the chamber?


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## weensnbeans (Jun 29, 2016)

@Mr T 59874 - do you think I would need a blower fan on the mailbox to get the smoke up around and down 20' of piping? I fear the smoke would build in the pipe and just sit there...


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## mr t 59874 (Jun 30, 2016)

weensNbeans said:


> @Mr T 59874 - do you think I would need a blower fan on the mailbox to get the smoke up around and down 20' of piping? I fear the smoke would build in the pipe and just sit there...


Place your extension piping in a horizontal position with an incline between each section of pipe, whether a straight line or laddered. This will allow easy airflow and provide good condensation draining.

Most likely a fan will not be needed.

The reason Setish went vertical, was space limitations.

Mr T


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## pitbulmom (Jun 30, 2016)

I'm doing so much reading and Note taking! Thank you for all that hard work!


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## sigmo (Aug 16, 2016)

A great post and excellent thread, indeed.

I will have to visit the hardware stores yet again!  :)


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## gavin16 (Sep 7, 2016)

I have been doing some reading off and on through the forums on mailbox mods and cold smoking cheese.  I recently did some back last spring when it was still cold here, using my MES 40. To be honest, the only cheese I tried from it was the mozzarella sticks - which came off slightly gritty from ashes in AMNPS below.  Probably smoked around 50-60# of cheese on a few runs, vac sealed it, and gave most of it away to friends and family.  They did not try any of it until several weeks/months later, and WOW! I'm suddenly expected to bring smoked cheese with me everywhere I go.. so something must have worked! Haha! 

Now that I am seeing cooler nights here in northwest Kansas (I am sad.. I'm a very fair weather guy and love the heat over cold, as well as longer days..) I figure it's a good time to start planning ahead.  If I get a chance this week/weekend I look forward to improving my new smokes with this method.  Luckily I came across a mailbox free (those things are NOT cheap!) so I just need to get some dryer duct/tape, and some wholesaw bits. Hope to bring you guys some pics and updates on my version of this. 

Thank you very much in advance for the well documented information. :)


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## sigmo (Sep 8, 2016)

At least you'll find good use of the cold weather for your cheese (and other cold) smoking!  

Around here, it gets cold enough that I need to have some heating even for cold smoking at times!  You'll probably find that, too.

I may modify the temperature controller on my MES so I can set it to lower temperatures.   The minimum setting on the stock controller is 100 degrees.  Since I'm using a separate smoke generator, there's no need to use the OEM controller for me.

Tabbed in.


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## clearprop (Feb 27, 2017)

Is this 20 feet of pipe only recommended for cold smoking? I'll do this mod to cold smoke, but should I always keep it hooked up even when hot smoking?


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 27, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> Is this 20 feet of pipe only recommended for cold smoking? I'll do this mod to cold smoke, but should I always keep it hooked up even when hot smoking?


 Although a mod can quite successively be used when hot smoking, understand there is quite a difference between hot and cold smoking. Most all hot smokers are specifically designed to be used with smoking fuel inside the smoker itself. When cold smoking, other than used as a heatsink, the chamber that the product is in is nothing more than that. 

T


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## gavin16 (Feb 27, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> Is this 20 feet of pipe only recommended for cold smoking? I'll do this mod to cold smoke, but should I always keep it hooked up even when hot smoking?


 I only have 5-6 feet of pipe on mine. I have actually found with my MES 40 gen 2.5 that I prefer keeping the smoke filtering from the mailbox - hot or cold smoke. Simply for the fact it keeps my smoker window cleaner for substantially longer.  The downside I have  found is that if the temperature outside is cold - I do lose some heat containment by using the mailbox mod.  

I'm actually still struggling to keep my AMAZEN tray consistently going in my mailbox.. still hit or miss.  I may try getting a tube when I order pellets soon.


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## lovethemeats (Feb 28, 2017)

Great info. Adding in more piping and your results you got makes me think of adding on to mine. Always willing to improve my results. Thanks for the really interesting read. 
Rob


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## agnesjaneen (Feb 28, 2017)

> A property consumed by fire will not only suffer damage to its furnishings, structural integrity and any items held within in the short term before the blaze is extinguished, but there are also various time-sensitive dangers to be aware of in the aftermath.
> 
> All leftover traces of soot and smoke on the walls, floors, ceilings and contents of a room will continue to wreak havoc after a fire incident. Ash residue corrodes any surfaces it is in contact with over time – if this is not professionally cleaned quickly, furniture, walls and more will be left permanently discoloured and worn. Clothes and upholstered furniture will be unsalvageable and any wood finishes, paint etc. will need to be re-administered.


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## clearprop (Mar 6, 2017)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Although a mod can quite successively be used when hot smoking, understand there is quite a difference between hot and cold smoking. Most all hot smokers are specifically designed to be used with smoking fuel inside the smoker itself. When cold smoking, other than used as a heatsink, the chamber that the product is in is nothing more than that.
> 
> T


I though that this thread shows that the purpose of this "coldsink" chamber and tubing is that it allows the creosote and other unfavorable suspended contaminates to condensate onto the surface area (of the chamber and pipes) before reaching the food.

I plan to weld a tube system up from 3" exhaust piping; however, I want to avoid wasting time and money. To avoid drafting problems as much as possible I am going to place the pipes horizontally at a slight incline from the chamber up to the smoker. What is the minimum length of piping I should use?  Or should I make 2 setup, one shorter length for hot one longer length cold? What lengths should I use in that case?













Cold Pipe.jpg



__ clearprop
__ Mar 6, 2017


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## gr0uch0 (Mar 6, 2017)

AgnesJaneen said:


> > A property consumed by fire will not only suffer damage to its furnishings, structural integrity and any items held within in the short term before the blaze is extinguished, but there are also various time-sensitive dangers to be aware of in the aftermath.
> >
> > All leftover traces of soot and smoke on the walls, floors, ceilings and contents of a room will continue to wreak havoc after a fire incident. Ash residue corrodes any surfaces it is in contact with over time – if this is not professionally cleaned quickly, furniture, walls and more will be left permanently discoloured and worn. Clothes and upholstered furniture will be unsalvageable and any wood finishes, paint etc. will need to be re-administered.










    Not understanding where this comes into the cold smoke thread...what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 6, 2017)

gr0uch0 said:


> Not understanding where this comes into the cold smoke thread...what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


I think he is suggesting that if you decide to use your dwelling as a smokehouse, you move you clothes and furniture outside first.


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 6, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> I though that this thread shows that the purpose of this "coldsink" chamber and tubing is that it allows the creosote and other unfavorable suspended contaminates to condensate onto the surface area (of the chamber and pipes) before reaching the food.
> 
> I plan to weld a tube system up from 3" exhaust piping; however, I want to avoid wasting time and money. To avoid drafting problems as much as possible I am going to place the pipes horizontally at a slight incline from the chamber up to the smoker. What is the minimum length of piping I should use?  Or should I make 2 setup, one shorter length for hot one longer length cold? What lengths should I use in that case?
> 
> ...


Thank you Clearprop for the drawing.

Your system will have two purposes, one to clean the smoke the other to cool it.

If you intend to cold smoke, the length of pipe from your firebox to the product chamber depends on the ability of your firebox to absorb the heat created by your smoke generator.  It is my opinion that an efficient cold smoker will allow the cooling of smoke to ambient temperature when it reaches the product.

If you are going to use it to hot smoke, a much shorter length of pipe can be used.

The temperature within the firebox will depend on the type of smoke generator, fuel used, and the amount of draft.

Start at the firebox and work your way to the product chamber, making changes as you go.

Have fun experimenting,

T


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## gr0uch0 (Mar 6, 2017)

Mr T 59874 said:


> I think he is suggesting that if you decide to use your dwelling as a smokehouse, you move you clothes and furniture outside first.


And to think we share the roadways with these types of thought processes....


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 6, 2017)

gr0uch0 said:


> Not understanding where this comes into the cold smoke thread...what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


Guess some folks like talking about smoking in all it's forms...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	






Mr T 59874 said:


> I think he is suggesting that if you decide to use your dwelling as a smokehouse, you move you clothes and furniture outside first.









  Naaaa...There is a House Fire Support Forum that is replying..." WTF Dude!!? My freakin house burnt down and you are posting a Recipe for SMOKED GOUDA!!!!...JJ


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## clearprop (Mar 6, 2017)

gr0uch0 said:


> Not understanding where this comes into the cold smoke thread...what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


It inspires all of the off topic post so we can all learn from others about the tea in china.... driving on the road.. house fire support forums... and anything BUT smoking meat


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 6, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> It inspires all of the off topic post so we can all learn from others about the tea in china.... driving on the road.. house fire support forums... and anything BUT smoking meatThumbs Up



Mr. T gave a great answer to your post. We certainly can discuss your design further. Please excuse us indulging in a bit of levity at an unexpected post...JJ


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## gr0uch0 (Mar 6, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> It inspires all of the off topic post so we can all learn from others about the tea in china.... driving on the road.. house fire support forums... and anything BUT smoking meat


Apologies if I caused your panties to get all bunched up, Clear.  I forgot that this forum was all about life and death--my bad.


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## johnmeyer (Mar 6, 2017)

> Originally Posted by *Mr T 59874*
> 
> If you are going to use it to hot smoke, a much shorter length of pipe can be used.
> 
> ...


I suspect that the design variables are also going to be affected by how big and how hot your smoke generator gets. My standard 5x8 AMNPS with sawdust does not get very hot at all, and the piping is dead cold only a few feet away from my "smoke box." On the other hand, if you wanted to create smoke using a larger smoke generator containing more fuel, than I could see where you would have to scale up all the cooling components of the design.

I'm an engineer by training, and every new design involves a huge amount of trial and error. Mr. T's last sentence above is exactly right.


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## clearprop (Mar 6, 2017)

johnmeyer said:


> I suspect that the design variables are also going to be affected by how big and how hot your smoke generator gets. My standard 5x8 AMNPS with sawdust does not get very hot at all, and the piping is dead cold only a few feet away from my "smoke box." On the other hand, if you wanted to create smoke using a larger smoke generator containing more fuel, than I could see where you would have to scale up all the cooling components of the design.
> 
> I'm an engineer by training, and every new design involves a huge amount of trial and error. Mr. T's last sentence above is exactly right.


Even after trial and error, the smoker itself is in an uncontrolled environment (outside temperature, humidity, draft, etc). Creosote accumulates on the surface of the pipes/chambers. The longer the pipe, the more surface area, the more "filtering"/accumulation will occur, but then again, the faster the draft, the less time it has in contact with the surface area, the less "filtering"/accumulation will occur.

I was hoping to find out what particular length of pipe works best overall since welding up 20' of 3" 14 gauge exhaust coiling around on a constant incline is a tall order I would rather not do in the name of "experimenting." I think I'll just K.I.S.S. and use straight lengths that I can just swap out.


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## johnmeyer (Mar 6, 2017)

I've posted about my experience several times, but the short version is that, with my setup, I found that I got very little condensate on the second two foot duct section, and that it was perfectly cool to the touch. Therefore, if I were you, I'd start out with a really short length of duct and use that for a smoke. During the smoke, feel the duct at various points along its length and see if you can detect any heat anywhere. If it feels perfectly cool as you get closer to the smoker, then the smoke must also be cool by that point, and I doubt you'll be getting much condensation for the rest of the length.

Also, when the smoke is finished, take everything apart and look at the end of the pipe nearest the smoke generator and then the part furthest away. In my case, there was a gigantic difference between each end of my very short four-foot run. So that, coupled with not feeling any heat on the second section, made me cancel my original intent of adding ten feet of pipe.


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## clearprop (Mar 6, 2017)

johnmeyer said:


> I've posted about my experience several times, but the short version is that, with my setup, I found that I got very little condensate on the second two foot duct section, and that it was perfectly cool to the touch. Therefore, if I were you, I'd start out with a really short length of duct and use that for a smoke. During the smoke, feel the duct at various points along its length and see if you can detect any heat anywhere. If it feels perfectly cool as you get closer to the smoker, then the smoke must also be cool by that point, and I doubt you'll be getting much condensation for the rest of the length.
> 
> Also, when the smoke is finished, take everything apart and look at the end of the pipe nearest the smoke generator and then the part furthest away. In my case, there was a gigantic difference between each end of my very short four-foot run. So that, coupled with not feeling any heat on the second section, made me cancel my original intent of adding ten feet of pipe.


Shortening from the Setesh's 21' down to 4' is a huge difference. Assuming you cold smoked, were you able to consume cheese/etc the day of smoking (like Setesh) or did you age it traditionally before tasting it?


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## johnmeyer (Mar 7, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> Shortening from the Setesh's 21' down to 4' is a huge difference. Assuming you cold smoked, were you able to consume cheese/etc the day of smoking (like Setesh) or did you age it traditionally before tasting it?


Let me answer your question by first showing my popcorn can setup (again):













Smoker Mod_04.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Feb 4, 2017






I smoked a small amount of Costco sharp cheddar cheese. I have Jeff's Hickory sawdust. I filled one row in my 5x8 AMNPS, lit it, let it burn down for ten minutes, and then started the smoke. It took about 2.5 hours for the sawdust to burn to the end of the one row. I monitored the temperature both inside and outside the smoker, and there was never a measurable (more than 2 degree) difference during the whole smoke, and most of the time the temperatures were identical. Also, the second section of my short duct work never got even the slightest bit warm. Air temperature during the whole smoke was 60 degrees.

The cheese turned out absolutely great, and was edible right away. Nothing but authentic smoke flavor. The only thing I would do differently next time would be to use a wood that better matches the flavor profile of cheese. I think Hickory is a little too strong.

BTW, on two prior occasions I had tried cold smoking cheese with the AMNPS placed inside the MES. The result was pretty awful, even when using sawdust.

I inspected the second section of duct work which I had cleaned, prior to the smoke, in my ultrasonic cleaner so that its interior was spotless. After the smoke I looked at it, and could not see any visible deposits or color change whatsoever.

I have done other normal (hot) smokes since then, always cleaning the duct and "mailbox mod" in my ultrasonic cleaner each time. This lets me see exactly how much gunk is being precipitated out of the smoke. After each smoke, the can is absolutely loaded with black shiny, oozy gunk, as is the first 6-10 inches of the duct coming out of the can. After that, there is almost nothing on the inside of the remaining duct.

So this is why, for my setup, I see no reason to pursue adding long sections of duct. I am sure that I might get some additional precipitation on the interior surfaces of any additional sections, but based on my own observations the improvement is going to be really, negligible. Using the old Pareto 80/20 rule, I'm getting almost all the benefit with my large surface area can (better than a mailbox) and two sections of duct. To put numbers on it, I suspect that I'm probably getting 95% of the benefit with the current setup compared to adding 5-10 feet of additional duct.

So, as I said before, my recommendation is to use your current setup a few times and monitor the residue left behind in the duct that you have, and also put your hand on each section of duct during the smoke and see how hot/warm/cold it feels. If the last section still feels warm, and if it shows quite a bit of smoke residue, then you can probably still get some improvement by adding more duct. By contrast, if it is cold and still looks pretty clean, it is hard for me to see how you'd get much improvement by adding a lot of additional duct.

I really like my current setup because I can put the duct inside the can, and store the can inside the smoker. I can then roll the smoker around to where I actually do my smoking, carrying everything I need inside the smoker.


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## daveomak (Mar 7, 2017)

I use a full length of 3" aluminum flex duct...  compressed into ~3' and it seems to do the job of condensing the creosote...  a lot of the gooey black stuff condenses in the mail box..  the rest, in the pipe...   I have very little to no build up in my smoker body....













DSCF2019.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Dec 29, 2016


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 7, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> I would rather not do in the name of "experimenting." I think I'll just K.I.S.S. and use straight lengths that I can just swap out.


Look at it in the name of "learning." Your kiss system in my opinion would be the way to go. 


Clearprop said:


> Shortening from the Setesh's 21' down to 4' is a huge difference. Assuming you cold smoked, were you able to consume cheese/etc the day of smoking (like Setesh) or did you age it traditionally before tasting it?


Clearprop, what many may not understand, Setishes setup was an experiment so he could see the differences each change would make, 20 feet of pipe is not always needed.

 If having to age cheese before consumption is traditional, I’ve not been smoking cheese traditionally for 60+ years. LOL


johnmeyer said:


> I have Jeff's Hickory sawdust. I filled one row in my 5x8 AMNPS, lit it, let it burn down for ten minutes, and then started the smoke. It took about 2.5 hours for the sawdust to burn to the end of the one row. I monitored the temperature both inside and outside the smoker, and there was never a measurable (more than 2 degree) difference during the whole smoke,
> 
> BTW, on two prior occasions I had tried cold smoking cheese with the AMNPS placed inside the MES. The result was pretty awful, even when using sawdust.


johnymeyer, you have a good setup and it shows the advantage of using a firebox that is also a good heatsink.

2.5 hours burn in one row of your tray type smoke generator seems to be a pretty fast burn rate. I again suggest you try powder rather than saw dust just for comparison sake. Using powder rather than sawdust, I can get ± 17-hour burn that produces a very cool and clean smoke. This is perfect for cheese and bacon, but if you are happy with what you are using continue on.

Here is another example, taken from my blog, of the differences in the placement of a smoke generator when cold smoking. 

http://smokingfoodwithmrt.com/smoke-direct-vs-indirect

Tom


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## gavin16 (Mar 7, 2017)

I don't have more than 6 feet tops of duct on mine.. and I can definitely eat it right out of the smoker.  I cold smoked close to 40# of cheese total this past fall.. and gave most all of it away to friends and family for tasting (FYI I don't recommend this method... Otherwise you will be forever doomed to the shaming expectations of said family/friends looking down on you for cheese EVERY TIME you see them...LEARN FROM MY MISTAKES!!  LOL)













Snapchat-9039440906317377929.jpg



__ gavin16
__ Oct 10, 2016






This is my setup.  Like I stated before I'm still struggling to get consistent airflow and having my pellets stay lit... last fall my pellets worked perfectly with this setup... Now i'm struggling again.. so when I order some more pellets (which will be asap...) i plan on ordering a tube smoker to try.

Gavin


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## daveomak (Mar 7, 2017)

Gavin16 said:


> I don't have more than 6 feet tops of duct on mine.. and I can definitely eat it right out of the smoker.  I cold smoked close to 40# of cheese total this past fall.. and gave most all of it away to friends and family for tasting (FYI I don't recommend this method... Otherwise you will be forever doomed to the shaming expectations of said family/friends looking down on you for cheese EVERY TIME you see them...LEARN FROM MY MISTAKES!!  LOL)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gavin..... the legs solved all my problems with smoke.....













LEGS 3.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Mar 7, 2017


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## gavin16 (Mar 7, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> Gavin..... the legs solved all my problems with smoke.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Evening Dave!  

I have some makeshift legs under mine.. They are stubby rubber furniture leg deals 1" in height - which seemed to work.. Maybe I need to try something like this that gives another couple inches off the mailbox floor.  

Those appear to be bolts holding up your AMNPS? Welded to the tray or setup on a frame you built?  I'll look into it.

Thanks!


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## daveomak (Mar 7, 2017)

Gavin16 said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > Gavin..... the legs solved all my problems with smoke.....
> ...


Nuts and washers top and bottom....













LEGS 1.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Mar 7, 2017


















LEGS 2.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Mar 7, 2017


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 8, 2017)

After receiving a tray type, smoke generator it was soon discovered that by placing it on top of a small colander, it burned much better.













Cheese10.jpg



__ mr t 59874
__ Mar 8, 2017






For convenience, I placed small bolts in each corner to replicate the colander. This solved all of the burning problems.













AMNPS Mod.JPG



__ mr t 59874
__ Mar 8, 2017






Knowing DaveOmak was having problems with his unit, I informed him of my solutions. He then modified his which seemed to solve his problems as well.

If you modify yours, let us know how it worked.

Tom


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## clearprop (Mar 8, 2017)

I was planning on using a PA108 Ammo Box/Can for my "MailboxMod".... but now I'm thinking it will be too small and I need to have something twice the size. It appears the bigger the container, the better the burn (more oxygen?) and better the draft?













PA108 2.jpg



__ clearprop
__ Mar 8, 2017


















PA108 1.jpg



__ clearprop
__ Mar 8, 2017


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 8, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> I was planning on using a PA108 Ammo Box/Can for my "MailboxMod".... but now I'm thinking it will be too small and I need to have something twice the size. It appears the bigger the container, the better the burn (more oxygen?) and better the draft?


You are beginning to get the idea. The draft can be controlled on a large box as well as a small one. You can see in post # 68 what I use, it works as a wonderful heatsink and that is what should be considered in designing your setup. 

T


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## clearprop (Mar 8, 2017)

Alright, I'll scrap the ammo box idea and build one out of a 20lb propane tank instead. Similar to this:













2017-03-08 17.14.35.jpg



__ clearprop
__ Mar 8, 2017


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 8, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> Alright, I'll scrap the ammo box idea and build one out of a 20lb propane tank instead. Similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By golly, now your talkin. Run the stack out the back though, it would create more surface area for cooling..

T


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## clearprop (Mar 18, 2017)

A LOT of folks are using 3" for their mailbox mod, REASON #1 Because most are using it on their MES which has a 3" chip loading port in the side, and REASON #2, it works.

I'm planning on using 3" as well for the intake, but would 4" work better? 

I would assume a MATCHED 3" exhaust for COLD smoking would help with draft. But to use same unit for HOT SMOKING, a 2" exhaust with a damper valve has been recommended numerous times on this forum. 

Will 2" work just as good to COLD smoke with? Which should I put in?

or both? (3" exhaust with a 2" removable insert?)


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## mr t 59874 (Mar 18, 2017)

Clearprop said:


> A LOT of folks are using 3" for their mailbox mod, REASON #1 Because most are using it on their MES which has a 3" chip loading port in the side, and REASON #2, it works.
> 
> I'm planning on using 3" as well for the intake, but would 4" work better?
> 
> ...


The purpose of the pipe is to assist in cooling the smoke as well as cleaning. The more surface area, the more efficient it will be. No problem putting in a larger exhaust as long as you can adjust the flow.

T


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## clearprop (Mar 18, 2017)

Does having the larger 3" exhaust vs 2" have any impact (good or bad) on cold smoking? I think it would only have an impact the draft to get rid of "stale" smoke, but does the difference (unknown) even matter?


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## daveomak (Mar 18, 2017)

You can't have too much air moving through a smoker....   You CAN have too little....


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## gavin16 (Mar 26, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> Nuts and washers top and bottom....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Went to the local hardware store and browsed around for some bolts to adjust my AMNPS.  Stumbled upon these little 2-3" alligator clips and thought they'd be worth a try. Just so happened I got my order of pellets in from Todd this week also.  Decided to give some cherry wine and pecan pellets a try on some cheese yesterday afternoon. Wasn't much of a breeze outside but I had plenty of airflow for this little fella to smoke for about 3 hours. Pleased with results and look forward to doing some barbecuing on some warmer days to continue testing.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  













Amnps tray.jpg



__ gavin16
__ Mar 26, 2017


















Snapchat-1588440482.jpg



__ gavin16
__ Mar 26, 2017


















Snapchat-1961972044.jpg



__ gavin16
__ Mar 26, 2017


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## daveomak (Mar 26, 2017)

Cherry wood pellets can be a bugger to keep lit...    they are very hard and dense....    you did good.....


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## gavin16 (Mar 26, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> Cherry wood pellets can be a bugger to keep lit...    they are very hard and dense....    you did good.....


Indeed.  Cherry is also my favorite fruit wood to use. I love the color it seems to put on meat.  I'll put pecan or hickory on the bottom layer and the hard wood on top. Someone had mentioned that on SMF somewhere and it certainly seems to work.


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## renron (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you for a very well thought out experiment, and scientifically deduced results. I'm sure my meals will be improved by your hard work.

Thank you!


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## pa42phigh (Nov 18, 2020)

Nice thread lots of good information


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