# need pid 220 wiring help



## ironmike323 (Oct 28, 2013)

I have built new pid and wired just like this with 14awg wire.well hot plate would not get how enough so ordered 220 broiler element.what do i have to do to make this pid run 220.my ssr is rated 25a 380v.do i just need to unhook whit wire after led and run direct to other element?this was mentioned but ssr only gonna kick one power line off leaving 110 all the time.will element  still shut off.

Do i have to change 14awg wire to a heavier?

i ordered ge oven broiler element 220v would 110 make this run?with hot plate struggled to get to 155d.wondering if the 220 element would run hotter that 1100w hot plateevn if hooked only to 110.













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__ thepackerbacker
__ Oct 17, 2013
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## handymanstan (Oct 28, 2013)

ironmike323 said:


> I have built new pid and wired just like this with 14awg wire.well hot plate would not get how enough so ordered 220 broiler element.what do i have to do to make this pid run 220.my ssr is rated 25a 380v.do i just need to unhook whit wire after led and run direct to other element?this was mentioned but ssr only gonna kick one power line off leaving 110 all the time.will element  still shut off.
> 
> Do i have to change 14awg wire to a heavier?
> 
> ...


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## dward51 (Oct 28, 2013)

What PID controller are you using.  Exact brand and model please.  It makes a huge difference as they are pretty much all set to be wired differently and if you hook them up wrong, it will go "poof".  Plus you are working with lethal voltages here.  Also what is the wattage of the 230v element you are using? I see the drawing you posted shows using a Auber Instruments SYL-2352P SSR type PID, but I also know that is from another build someone else did.

Post the PID & SSR brand and models and I think we can help you out.

EDIT**** Actually if you can post a photo of the schematic wiring that is on the side of the PID that would be best.  I have seen the same brand and model have different "pin out" or wiring connections at the screw terminals before.  This is fairly common in the MYPIN models from China and often the cause of much wiring confusion.

The schematic will look something like this:













mypin_component_926.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






Notice how this PID schematic is totally different from the terminal identifications in the example you posted.  Yes I know that image is for a 115v element, but focus on the PID wiring for now.  In the PID photo above the SSR triggering voltage comes from terminals 3 & 4. This photo is of a MYPIN TA4 PID.  The schematic you posted shows an Auber Instruments SYL2352P as the PID. In the schematic you posted the SSR triggering voltage comes from terminals 7 & 8.  In the schematic you posted, the 115v power for the PID comes in via terminals 9 & 10.  In the photo of an actual PID above, it's on terminals 1 & 2.  Huge difference.   Also it will vary between models in the same brand.  The wiring of a Auber instuments SYL-2352P is different from a SYL-2372P, etc...  Brand & model matter.













PIDdigram.JPG



__ thepackerbacker
__ Oct 20, 2013


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## ironmike323 (Oct 28, 2013)

Ht pid from aubrin it is same as in diagram model syl 2352 and ssr is same 25 amp 480volt.I have it wired exactly like diagram and works great but not enough power in 110 so thinking of going 220.My wiring is 14awg and should it be 10awg with 220v?what do i need to change to make 220v thought i could still do it with one ssr?help is appreciated


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## handymanstan (Oct 28, 2013)

LOL Mike  sorry   Now that I see the blown up photo I see it is a 120v circuit.  With my bad eyes I thought you were showing a 240 circuit.  The drawing I sent you will still work for 240v.  Just make sure of your connections.

Stan


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## dward51 (Oct 28, 2013)

Ok,  here is the diagram reworked for the Auber PID and the Auber SSR that Mike listed by part numbers.   **STILL DOUBLE CHECK THE PIN OUT MARKINGS ON BOTH DEVICES,  IF THEY ARE MARKED DIFFERENT, GO WITH WHAT THE SCHEMATIC ON THE DEVICE SHOWS AS CORRECT**

*C A U T I O N -----  115v and 230v AC circuits can kill.   That being said, if you are uncertain of your ability to work with AC voltages, contact an electrician!  Safety first....*

I cleaned up the circuit diagram and reworked it with the Auber Instruments part numbers.  Keep in mind that we are working with a single phase 230v AC circuit which is actually two 115v legs.  The voltage potential between the L1 and L2 legs is 230v, and the voltage potential between EITHER the L1 and neutral OR the L2 and neutral is 115v.  In a purely 230v circuit, the neutral wire is not generally used (it is only used if you need to tap into on of the legs of the 230v for a 115v circuit).  I did not show fusing or circuit breakers to keep the circuit simple.  I would recommend a fuse/breaker for the PID and if you put a breaker on the 230v supply line, make sure to use a double pole breaker (230v breaker) and not two single pole breakers (115v breakers).

This is the circuit with the PID wired to operate on 115v, and the heating element on 230v.













230V WIRING.jpg



__ dward51
__ Oct 28, 2013






This version has the PID wired for 230V power.  In this version the neutral wire is not used.  Just cap it off with a wire nut and wrap the wire/nut with electrical tape to secure it.  This version adds an extra wire nut to make the tap into both the L1 and L2 legs to form the 230v voltage path.













230v diagram 2.jpg



__ dward51
__ Oct 28, 2013






As to your question about the wiring gauge needed.  That depends on the wattage rating of the heating element you intend on using.  That will be the key.  HOWEVER!  Remember you have doubled the voltage so you have also doubled the wattage you can drive from the same size wire.  So a 1,500 watt load will require 13.04 amps at 115v.  The same load will require only 6.52 amps at 230v.  But it's not as simple as taking a 1,500 watt element and upping the voltage to 230v.  The elements are designed to operate on a certain voltage.  You need to match the voltage to the element you have.  So you cannot take a 1,500 watt brinkmann element and double the voltage to make it a 3,000 watt element.  You will probably burn in out very quickly (in seconds) if you try this, so make sure you match the voltage to the actual element you use. 

So back to the gauge question.....

A 14 gauge wire is rated for 15 amps at 115v.  This same 14 gauge wire can carry the same 15 amps at 230v, but you have doubled the potential load you can power because you doubled the voltage.  Load is measured in watts, so you have doubled the potential load wattage from 1,725 at 115v to 3,450 in a 230v circuit on the same 14 gauge wire.

Another thing about wiring and heat.  Wiring will start to loose "ampacity", which is the amperage capacity, as temperatures increase.  Make sure to use high temperature wire for the section of the circuit that goes inside the cabinet to the heating element.  You can find high temperature wire at any appliance repair store, Grainger, or McMaster Carr.  Some Home Depot's or Lowe's may also have it.  It's generally white in color and has what looks like a woven fabric outer sheath, but that is the insulating material.

Hope this helps......


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## handymanstan (Oct 28, 2013)

Sorry I should not say anything as I am on my 3 glass of wine  BUT the netural must be used to power the pid.  If you feed the pid power with 240 it will go poof.


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## ironmike323 (Oct 28, 2013)

great work.The element is ge 2750 watt.   So im guessing i need to change wire to heavier to be safe.I also have push button 20 breaker but not 4 pole so have to change?thanks for the help. other question is with two hots going to element and one of them switched at relay when relay kicks off will element still be hot?because 110 still going to it direct.Might be dumb question but what would happen if i kept two pole 20a breaker on hot that is going to ssr and no breaker on the other going to element would that be safe or no?you hav etwo diagrams and looks like i need first one see a diff in neutral ran to 9 and bottom diagram it is capped 2nd one is 220 pip which i dont need correct?thanks again lots of help.


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## ironmike323 (Oct 28, 2013)

yeah handyman i seen that questioning that.i believe i want diagram 1. so pid runs on 110?dont think mine runs on 220 not sure if you would need that but alot of things i am learning here.i ordered ge element and brinkmann element gonna try brink 110 just to see if it will heat enough before i convert to 220.i would think brinkmann 1500w would heat better that 1100w hot plate.plate maxed at 160 and fought to get there on 49degree day.i wopuld like to maintain 180 easy without it struggling.we will see.lol


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## dward51 (Oct 28, 2013)

*The Auber Instrument model SYL-2352P will operate from 85 to 254 volts AC, no jumper or other settings required per Auber's data.*   The specs are on this web page. The manual is in two PDF's at the bottom of that page.  You only use the neutral for 115v setup (which is much more common in home made smokers than a 230v setup).

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=4

And if you look on page 3 of the 2nd PDF (the supplemental manual), you will see an example of wiring this group of PID's for a 230v power source.  That particular example uses a contactor and not a SSR so DO NOT use the heater portion of that circuit, just look at the power supply.  Nary a neutral wire in the entire circuit.













auber 230v.jpg



__ dward51
__ Oct 28, 2013








> other question is with two hots going to element and one of them switched at relay when relay kicks off will element still be hot?because 110 still going to it direct.


Look at my bottom circuit again.  When the SSR is off there is not completed return path for the 115v on the left side (L2 or "black" in that particular drawing) to return to the L1 (or "red") side.  You have an open circuit.  It's no different than in a 115v version as the return side of the circuit is the neutral in a 115v circuit.  Does not matter what the voltage is, if the circuit is "open" it's not "on" and you get no heat at the element if it is not a complete loop.


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## brandonthompson (Jul 11, 2014)

Well I may of just found the best thread about the PID. You guys seem to know quite a bit about this and that leads me to numerous questions. I have a built smoker out of double door freezer. I normally don't exceed 210 for temps. I took an efficiency size stove (220v) and took out two burners and put them inside my smoker build. Used the factory knows and wired it up 220. Only problem I have Is that I don't have anything kicking my burners on and off at certain temps. So my question being is could I use dwards1 diagrams to wire a PID to my electric elements? Appreciate all the help just hoping I can get one of these added


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## brandonthompson (Jul 11, 2014)

Here is a pic of one of my burners which is the smaller one. I don't know if the volts and watts be different on the bigger one but I can take pic of that one too













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__ brandonthompson
__ Jul 11, 2014


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## brandonthompson (Jul 11, 2014)

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__ brandonthompson
__ Jul 11, 2014






I was considering getting something from eBay. Thanks guys for any input on if this can be done with my design


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## brandonthompson (Jul 13, 2014)

??


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## dward51 (Jul 14, 2014)

Brandon,

I replied to your PM.  That REX C100 will work, just be aware that a "real" REX C100 is from Japan and since this is an Ebay sale shipping from China it is probably a knock off clone and not a real REX C100.  Does not mean it will not work, but knock off stuff can also be lemons.

Also don't forget to add a heat sink for your SSR as that package did not list one.  A good load like a heating element will cause a SSR to heat up and they are designed to be used with heat sinks to dissipate the heat to reach the rated load of the SSR.


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## dward51 (Jul 14, 2014)

For the benefit of others, Brandon and I have had a side PM conversation going on.  He is wanting to add a 2nd element to the standard 220v setup.  Here is a diagram of just such a thing that also uses a analog switch so the 2nd element can be turned on/off as needed (to help with lower temp smokes).

***Remember, make sure your wire any project to properly match the terminals on the schematic of your actual PID*** The pin outs can vary between the same brand and model (especially true with China models), but the basic concepts are the same.













230v diagram 3.jpg



__ dward51
__ Jul 14, 2014


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## brandonthompson (Jul 14, 2014)

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__ brandonthompson
__ Jul 14, 2014








For other looking to figured I'd post it here. Another package I found and says it's a rexc100 in the photo but as dward stated chances are it may be a knock off. Dward is there certain ones we should avoid getting? I notice on the description it says it goes to 0-400 Celsius? We would want ferinheit correct? Didn't know if these have some parameters we can change to which way it measures temperature. Thanks again


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## JckDanls 07 (Jul 14, 2014)

you will be able to switch it to F` ....    D.. wouldn't he want to put the second burner on it's own SSR (switched) ...


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## brandonthompson (Jul 14, 2014)

Hmmm?? Good possibility olé dward will have the answer for us 8)


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## brandonthompson (Jul 25, 2015)

Well it's finally time dward to start building that Pid for my smoker with two elements. Pretty excited, will wanna recap on wiring also will I need two ssr s for two elements??


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## brandonthompson (Feb 28, 2016)

Since have posted here, figured throw this question out there. Has anyone wired a oven element in conjunction with the pid controller set up? Assuming they burn hotter than stand 220v drive top burners ? Ttp


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## JckDanls 07 (Feb 28, 2016)

brandonthompson said:


> Since have posted here, figured throw this question out there. Has anyone wired a oven element in conjunction with the pid controller set up? Assuming they burn hotter than stand 220v drive top burners ? Ttp



I actually use both the bottom burner and the broiler burner together in my smokehouse (3'x3'x6'6")..  controlled with a Auber PID with ramp/soak feature (SYL-2352P ) ...  works really well..   the reason I use 2 elements is so that just one element won't have to burn so hot..  in my theory the elements will last longer when you want to cook hotter...  so far I have only done low temp (170`) with it...  but I did stretch it's legs to see how high I could get temps...  held 350` for a little while but  the walls (1/2"plywood) were getting pretty warm..  so I backed temps down ...


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## brandonthompson (Feb 28, 2016)

Do you have a picture of this you could send? Also was the wiring difficult at all or fairily simple?
He smoker I have has two elements in it and it does okay for temps unless it's super cold here in iowa . Then she struggled so on my next build which is basically same thing , I wanna make sure I have enough bang to smoke the buck per say 













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__ brandonthompson
__ Feb 28, 2016






This is the size I'll heating


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## walta (Feb 29, 2016)




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## brandonthompson (Feb 29, 2016)

??


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## dward51 (Feb 29, 2016)

brandonthompson said:


> Since have posted here, figured throw this question out there. Has anyone wired a oven element in conjunction with the pid controller set up? Assuming they burn hotter than stand 220v drive top burners ? Ttp


A 220v element is a 220v element, and will output the rated wattage.  It does not burn hotter.  A 220v element run on 110v power will only output 1/4 the original 220v wattage though. And never use a 110v element on 220v power, as you will smoke it.

Yes there are quite a few builds that use salvaged oven elements with a PID.  The PID and SSR are merely the switch that controls power to the element.  You could accomplish the same thing by hand switching a switch to a element.  The computer is just much more efficient, but in essence that is what it does (and it learns the patterns and anticipates when heat is needed just before it actually is).


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## four20 (Mar 9, 2016)

dward51 said:


> A 220v element is a 220v element, and will output the rated wattage.  It does not burn hotter.  A 220v element run on 110v power will only output 1/4 the original 220v wattage though. And never use a 110v element on 220v power, as you will smoke it.
> 
> Yes there are quite a few builds that use salvaged oven elements with a PID.  The PID and SSR are merely the switch that controls power to the element.  You could accomplish the same thing by hand switching a switch to a element.  The computer is just much more efficient, but in essence that is what it does (and it learns the patterns and anticipates when heat is needed just before it actually is).


I disagree. An element is not guaranteed wattage. They however fail due to over current which is why you cannot use a 220v element on a 208v circuit unless rated for dual voltage. The 208v element pull close to 1 amp more which can cause premature failure.

What happens when we decrease voltage ( frequency ) yet limit intensity ( amperage ) with a current limiting diode ? We decrease wattage do we not? Now lets say we use a frequency inverter that allows us to vary voltage and amperage outputs so that we do not over amp the element. We can then flip flop frequencies and intensities with a good controller so that the element maintains without shutting itself down.


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## walta (Mar 13, 2016)

Four20 said:


> I disagree. An element is not guaranteed wattage. They however fail due to over current which is why you cannot use a 220v element on a 208v circuit unless rated for dual voltage. The 208v element pull close to 1 amp more which can cause premature failure.
> 
> What happens when we decrease voltage ( frequency ) yet limit intensity ( amperage ) with a current limiting diode ? We decrease wattage do we not? Now lets say we use a frequency inverter that allows us to vary voltage and amperage outputs so that we do not over amp the element. We can then flip flop frequencies and intensities with a good controller so that the element maintains without shutting itself down.


I agree with Dward51 a heating element is a pure resistor and as such frequency is not a factor.

Since one way to express OHMs law is Wattage =( Voltage X Voltage) / Resistance, one half the voltage = one forth the wattage.

Heating elements like all resistors have 2 important ratings 1 is the devices resistance measured in OHMs. 2 is the maximum number of watts it can dissipate without damage.  Heating element manufactures assume will operate an element at its max voltage and give you wattage at that voltage.

I have never seen anyone use voltage and frequency interchangeably as they are very different things where does that come from?

If you installed a diode in series with an element the diode would block half the current flow. The DC voltage now applied to the element will be less than 240 volts.

Frequency inverter or more commonly variable-frequency drive or VFD is used to power 3 phase motors not heating elements. Most are smart enough to figure out when a motor is not present and will shut themselves down with an error code. 

Walta


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## four20 (Mar 13, 2016)

Its been a while since i have actually looked at any of this. How about using an SCR based control. Ohh well Im not looking to hijack this thread so letting this go. Pm me beyond this I always like to refresh what i havent thought about in 10 yrs.


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## smokey45 (Feb 9, 2017)

Thanks for the information


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## welderdan (Feb 11, 2017)

This question is for Jckdanls 07 a couple replies up, i tried to post it directly under his comment but it appears post go to the bottom of the thread only. 
Is 170 degrees the lowest temp you can run with your pid and element setup. Also what wattage are your two elements? Have about the same size smoker im getting close to installing elements? What are you using for smoke ? Thanks


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## JckDanls 07 (Feb 11, 2017)

Welderdan said:


> This question is for Jckdanls 07 a couple replies up, i tried to post it directly under his comment but it appears post go to the bottom of the thread only.
> Is 170 degrees the lowest temp you can run with your pid and element setup. Also what wattage are your two elements? Have about the same size smoker im getting close to installing elements? What are you using for smoke ? Thanks



Dan...  The smokehouse will run as low as I set it...  I start out at 120` and work my way up from there when doing sausage and/or snack sticks...  170` is the max I go when doing them ...  It will get as hot as I want it to ...  I have no idea what the wattage is as I just stripped them out of an old oven ... I use a pellet tube and pellets from Todd (he's a forum sponsor and also has the best customer service I have ever seen)...  here's a link to his site... http://www.amazenproducts.com/

Let me know If I can answer any other questions you have... 

  Keith


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## dward51 (Feb 11, 2017)

Dan,

I second the use of a pellet tray or tube in an electric smoker for the smoke source.  Reason is a lower temps the main element is not getting hot enough or running long enough to reliably keep chips of pellets lit and producing smoke.  The tray or tube will not have this problem as they do not depend on the element to keep them going and producing smoke.  Actually you could use any independent smoke generator as long as it did not depend on the heat from the element to keep the smoke media lit.   This is especially an issue when cold smoking (no heating element input at all), and smoking sausage and sticks in stages starting at lower temps.  An insulated cabinet makes the problem even worse, as the heating element runs even less in a well insulated cabinet.  That's why you see a lot of the pellet tubes in use.


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