# HAM....  easy peasy... no mess.... DISCLAIMER.. MONEY...



## daveomak (Jun 12, 2018)

I've been injecting hams to cure for some time...  decided I needed a needle to get to all parts from one side...  No flipping, no turning, here it its....  5" , #14 gauge blunt/sharpened needle..






Found this picnic at w-m that has NOT been injected...
The paper towel is sprayed with vinegar...  I'm sanitizing the
outside of the vac-packed leg so I can inject through the
plastic....






Roughly a 10#, 4540 gram leg....
For a 10% injection, I'm using ~450 grams of vegetable stock.....






18 grams of STPP, Ames company variety....
nepas suggested using this when he made sticks...






45 grams of white sugar......

90 grams of pickling salt......






11 grams of cure#1......






Add the ingredients to the soup stock one at a time...
Thoroughly mix to dissolve each....
......*IMPORTANT*.......
Mix in the order listed....
1....    STPP
2....    sugar
3....    salt
4....    Cure#1

Placed the picnic on a tray and inject from one side only and near the
high side of the leg...  Soooooo, when you put it in the refer, on the tray,
the holes, from injecting, will be up...   Now insert the needle deep but do not penetrate
the opposite side of the bag...  inject about 10-15 mls... (*every 1 to 1.5"*..edit)  pull the needle out to about 1/3rd depth of the leg and inject another 10-15 mls....   refill the syringe...   insert back into that hole... inject a different direction...  same deal...  NOW, when you find the leg bone, inject below, down the other side and inject below..  relocate the needle to a different position and inject again... repeat....  keep moving the needle to locate a new section to inject UNTIL you feel the entire leg has curing liquid in all parts....  You might be able to inject the entire leg by making as few as 4-5 holes in the bag....
.....*IMPORTANT*.......  once you mix up the curing brine/marinade......  ALL of it must be injected to get the proper cure, salt and sugar into the meat.....
Leave the plastic wrapped leg, holes up on the tray...   In the refer for 6 days minimum to 2 weeks...   make sure your fridge temp is 34-38 deg. F.....   USE A THERMOMETER ....

One note....  I found leaving the ham in the vac-bag....   It is tightly wrapped and sort of a PITA to get the liquid from the syringe into the meat...  I think it's worth the effort so as to not have to re-bag, or put the ham in a bucket and waste salt, sugar, cure, not to mention the time...
45 minutes from the  time I got home from the store, the prepped picnic was in the refer on a tray...
Others have used this method and found the ham to be of a very good quality....
I have found them to be MUCH better than store bought...
May I suggest you follow this method exactly...   try it once...  then on #2, #3, #4 etc...  mess with the flavor profile...  if you think it's necessary...    This is my ONLY recipe I have not adjusted...  I don't know what would make it any better..   the no-salt vegetable stock adds incredible flavor...  many replies I have received note...  their families have said it's the best ham they every tasted...  take that for what it's worth...
See y'all later.....

This will work for loin ham, butt ham, any type of meat....   I use a modified version on turkey and chicken...

Dave


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## chopsaw (Jun 12, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Others have used this method and found the ham to be of a very good quality....
> I have found them to be MUCH better than store bought...



Been waiting to see if you were gonna do another one , to see if you changed anything . I agree , no reason to . 
Got the itch myself . I'll be watching .


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## foamheart (Jun 12, 2018)

I had been looking for new long needles for awhile. Finally to get the needle I wanted I had to swap to a much smaller syringe. I don't compromise well and I knew what I wanted. Well even the vet supply store said they couldn't get 'em. I always got 'em form any feed and seed but now they only have short needles.







Above on the left is an 80ML syringe with a 16 gauge needle on the left and a 20ML syringe with a 16 gauge needle on the right.







The left is what I had been using, the Right is best I could find. The middle is those "injector needles" with side holes which I find totally useless.

What started my quest was wanting wanting a larger longer needle of a smaller gauge, that just wasn't gonna happen. So now I will have less plugged needles, but I will have to reload it 4 times more often. Do they make a 80ML in a 14 gauge, not that any vet or supply or warehouse I talked to could find.  I guess they figured its too much medicine too fast. 

I have numerous other fancy injectors but I still like the standard old syringe best, now were I needing to  inject 20 or 50 hams there are much better rigs.

Back to you Dave, just thought I would throw that out there since I had been trying since last year and finally just bought what they had.


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## zippy12 (Jun 12, 2018)

Watching this!


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## pc farmer (Jun 12, 2018)

I never thought of keeping in the cryo bag.  Should work great.  

I have alot of ham left from my pig.     I have 3 more growing for this fall.  

If you were to add something for flavor what would it be?   Maybe garlic?


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## motocrash (Jun 12, 2018)

Dave,where did you get the 5" needle?


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## daveomak (Jun 12, 2018)

Adam....
I'm perfectly happy with the flavor..  I have no idea what would make it better....


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## daveomak (Jun 12, 2018)

Amazon.... for the needle...


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## zippy12 (Jun 12, 2018)

Someone said get live stock needles


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## daveomak (Jun 12, 2018)

Sharpened on a fine wheel and the pointed tip bent over about 1/2 the diameter to prevent the tube from plugging...
The 14 gauge is fairly small BUT....  I didn't want a big hole in the meat for the injection to run out...  OH WELL !!  it runs out a bit but not too bad...


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## petewoody (Jun 12, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Amazon.... for the needle...


Dave, I have been using your process on pork sirloin roasts from Costco. They come in a pack of four, each about a kilo. They have been injected with some fluids which make getting ten percent of the weight injected a bit difficult but I add the small excess in the bag which I seal and most if not all is taken up while curing usually for 4/5 days. They are moist and don't last very long when children and grandchildren raid the fridge.


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## daveomak (Jun 12, 2018)

The moistness is incredible... I think the STPP and veggie stock do something special to the meat...

Glad you enjoy the recipe...     
Dave


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## pc farmer (Jun 12, 2018)

daveomak said:


> The moistness is incredible... I think the STPP and veggie stock do something special to the meat...
> 
> Glad you enjoy the recipe...
> Dave


I know the veggie stock does.  I did one have with and one without.  Big taste different


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## SmokinAl (Jun 13, 2018)

Thanks for the recipe Dave!
I bookmarked this one!
Al


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## daveomak (Jun 13, 2018)

_*HOLD ON FRIENDS*_ ...
*The vac bag doesn't work to my satisfaction...    I realized I could not rotate the vac-bag due to the holes...   I couldn't "over-bag" it because the entire bag had not been "sterilized" with vinegar....*
*SOOOOOOOO, I rebagged in a 2 1/2 gallon zip bag so I could rotate it....*
*I thought the vac-bag idea was soooo coooool, I didn't think it through... *


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## daveomak (Jun 14, 2018)

*Would you take a minute to suggest wood flavors for this ham...*

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/smoke-flavor-for-a-ham.276515/


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## Bearcarver (Jun 14, 2018)

daveomak said:


> _*HOLD ON FRIENDS*_ ...
> *The vac bag doesn't work to my satisfaction...    I realized I could not rotate the vac-bag due to the holes...   I couldn't "over-bag" it because the entire bag had not been "sterilized" with vinegar....*
> *SOOOOOOOO, I rebagged in a 2 1/2 gallon zip bag so I could rotate it....*
> *I thought the vac-bag idea was soooo coooool, I didn't think it through... *




LOL---I didn't think of that either, until you mentioned it.
Oh Well---Had me going.
Still gonna be another Great Ham!!

Bear


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## browneyesvictim (Jun 14, 2018)

Got 3 hogs raising at my brothers. One of them is mine, but he wants me to do all the curing and smoking for all 3. I need to up my game, and Dave I think your method is going to be put to use!


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## pc farmer (Jun 14, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> Got 3 hogs raising at my brothers. One of them is mine, but he wants me to do all the curing and smoking for all 3. I need to up my game, and Dave I think your method is going to be put to use!




Do  it.     I used his method for my big hams.  Cured for 2 weeks.


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## daveomak (Jun 20, 2018)

It's been 10 days..  Plenty of time with a properly injected hunk of meat...  Checked the ham temperature...  Perfect...  Centered the stockinette in a colander, for loading...






	

		
			
		

		
	
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..Tied it off to the board on the top shelf support...  Pellicle formation...





	

		
			
		

		
	
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..Made up 2.4#'s of dust....





	

		
			
		

		
	
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High's around 90...  lows around 60....  Thunder showers today and tomorrow....  
I'll play this smoke by ear... maybe 2 days on and off...  I really don't know....  I'll check with Foamy...  He knows....

_*FOAMY !!!!*_   help me out here....  What you think ????  2 days... 6-8 a day if the color is good ??   Two rows in the AMNPS "SHOULD" be about 7--8 hours EH ???


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## motocrash (Jun 20, 2018)

daveomak said:


> _*HOLD ON FRIENDS*_ ...
> *The vac bag doesn't work to my satisfaction...    I realized I could not rotate the vac-bag due to the holes...   I couldn't "over-bag" it because the entire bag had not been "sterilized" with vinegar....*
> *SOOOOOOOO, I rebagged in a 2 1/2 gallon zip bag so I could rotate it....*
> *I thought the vac-bag idea was soooo coooool, I didn't think it through... *


Aww,damn.I thought it was cool too.Oh well,it'll still get the DaveO vaccine next time.:D


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## daveomak (Jun 20, 2018)

I REALLY like the way the pellet dust gives off smoke...  This 40-40-20 mix smells sooooo good.....
The flash sure makes the smoke look thick...  but it ain't....








	

		
			
		

		
	
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## daveomak (Jun 20, 2018)

Well that tray only lasted 3 hours....  I forgot to pack the dust down in the AMNPS...  Now it's packed tight and a new load of dust is going.....


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## daveomak (Jun 21, 2018)

HOLEY KOW !!!!  AWESOME !!!!  When it cools in the refer for a day or so, I will cut into it and taste....
10 hours of thin dust smoke...  Cooked to an IT of 146...  I will test if that was high enough for "tender" meat....  Smoker started out 110-120 for 4-5 hours... up to 140 for a couple...  160-165 final temp for the duration.... total smoker time about 18-20 hours...  about 10 ish hours of very thin dust smoke...  after smoke was done, I closed down the exhaust to about 10% open to stop the air flow...  that stops too much drying of the meat...  wrapping in peach parchment would have been very good...
This ham smells soooo good...  Never have I used this mix of flavor woods...  I'm using it again... If the taste of the meat comes close to the aroma.....





	

		
			
		

		
	
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bbl.....   Dave......

Thanks for looking.....
edited part..
..


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## daveomak (Jun 21, 2018)

In the refer....  uncovered and on a rack to "bloom"....  Let the flavors mingle...  the moisture inside to get homogenized... and coagulate...  
I'm thinking that will take 24 hours or so to get the temp, at the bone, to refer temps...   Some things can't be hurried...  
Nothing about curing and smoking meats is a hurried process...   but you already knew that....


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## motocrash (Jun 21, 2018)

Ooh La La... C'est Magnifique!
Can't wait to see the beauty on the inside.


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## pc farmer (Jun 21, 2018)

That's beautiful.


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## chopsaw (Jun 21, 2018)

Wow ! Fantastic .


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## foamheart (Jun 21, 2018)

;)


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 21, 2018)

Looking forward to sliced pics. Will surely try injecting next ham.


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## daveomak (Jun 21, 2018)

WOW !!!!  The flavor and moistness....  Best ham ever....  I ain't changin' anything....   





	

		
			
		

		
	
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My dog knows the taste of smoked meat...   She knows I'm eating fresh ham...  
I gave her a taste in the kitchen...  So she bumps my leg to let me know she
wants more...  What's a guy to do...  my best friend gets shared almost what
ever I'm eating....  She's really concentrating on that chunk...


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## mike5051 (Jun 21, 2018)

That is an amazing ham Dave!  Thanks for sharing the process!

Mike


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## motocrash (Jun 21, 2018)

Absolutely gorgeous Dave! And the word from people in the know on SMF Ave. say it tastes like it looks...


daveomak said:


> My dog knows the taste of smoked meat... She knows I'm eating fresh ham...
> I gave her a taste in the kitchen... So she bumps my leg to let me know she
> wants more... What's a guy to do... my best friend gets shared almost what
> ever I'm eating.... She's really concentrating on that chunk...


Sounds all too familiar and I wouldn't have it any other way:D


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## dward51 (Jun 21, 2018)

Wow, that is a beautiful ham!!!!!  Well done


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## daveomak (Jun 22, 2018)

.....  Al, morning...   I think you will like it....  Easy and delicious...


SmokinAl said:


> Thanks for the recipe Dave!
> I bookmarked this one!
> Al



.. John, morning....  The older we get, the more we forget...



Bearcarver said:


> LOL---I didn't think of that either, until you mentioned it.
> Oh Well---Had me going.
> Still gonna be another Great Ham!!
> 
> Bear



... Do a test or two on a picnic...   Like others, you may just like it... 



browneyesvictim said:


> Got 3 hogs raising at my brothers. One of them is mine, but he wants me to do all the curing and smoking for all 3. I need to up my game, and Dave I think your method is going to be put to use!


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## daveomak (Jun 22, 2018)

..


motocrash said:


> Aww,damn.I thought it was cool too_Oh well,it'll still get the DaveO vaccine next time.:D



Sometimes one has to make an error to achieve better methods... 



motocrash said:


> Ooh La La... C'est Magnifique!
> Can't wait to see the beauty on the inside.





c farmer said:


> That's beautiful.





chopsaw said:


> Wow ! Fantastic .





foamheart said:


> ;)





atomicsmoke said:


> Looking forward to sliced pics. Will surely try injecting next ham.





mike5051 said:


> That is an amazing ham Dave!  Thanks for sharing the process!
> 
> Mike





motocrash said:


> Absolutely gorgeous Dave! And the word from people in the know on SMF Ave. say it tastes like it looks...
> 
> Sounds all too familiar and I wouldn't have it any other way:D





dward51 said:


> Wow, that is a beautiful ham!!!!!  Well done



Thanks very much folks, for watching and commenting...  It's enjoyable to make something you can't get at the store...  At least not as good as this ham... 
Sort of like the sausage we make...  "Better than store bought"....  Enjoy the finished products you make.. share with friends...  and pass on your skills and recipes...


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 22, 2018)

daveomak said:


> ..
> 
> 
> Sometimes one has to make an error to achieve better methods...
> ...


Right on Dave.


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## chopsaw (Jun 22, 2018)

This is a must try if you are curing your own hams . The exact injection with the veggie stock and the phosphate . I've used it 3 times . A picnic , a butt and a whole chicken . All three were full of flavor and so moist it spoils you for anything else . The picnic was my favorite . 

Dave you perfected something I thought was perfect . I will be adding some mesquite next time .


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## daveomak (Jun 22, 2018)

Thanks CS...  Actually, it's a combination of stuff I have learned from many members...  The veggie stock was something I stumble upon, trying to make a pork loin edible...  The loin doesn't come close, in comparison to the ham...
IMO, the picnic is a much better hunk of meat than the ham...  Next I will be testing a butt...  It should be darn good...


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## pc farmer (Jun 22, 2018)

I haven't tried this with chicken yet.  I think I need to.


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## daveomak (Jun 22, 2018)

Adam....  morning...   Try it with turkey also....  Works well for me....


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## mski2 (Oct 17, 2018)

Dave , Did you take the skin off ?
I got a vac bag 17# with 2 picnic's , thinking about doing both, how long will they keep or should they be frozen ?
Looks delicious 
Mark


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## daveomak (Oct 18, 2018)

Morning Mark...   I think the ham was already skinned... I would have taken it off if had not been...  smoke doesn't penetrate skin too well...  cure doesn't penetrate skin either, but, since we are injecting, it wouldn't affect the curing process..
As far a keeping... You speaking of after curing and smoking ???  
In a 35F fridge, maybe 6-7 days is all I would go...   If you have a time table for when you are going to consume it, like Thanksgiving, it can be in the cure for up to 2 weeks...  a day or so to smoke, and a day or 2 to rest in the refer, uncovered, to "bloom"...  
As far as freezing goes, I would cut it up, vac pack, and freeze individual packages of meat...  I like to freeze hunks, then slice prior to prep and serving..  Freezing whole I don't think is an option, in a home freezer anyway...  It would take a week for it to freeze thoroughly...


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## zwiller (Oct 18, 2018)

Not sure how i missed this but LIKE!  This is very close to my own process that I've gleaned from you guys here.  Fairly certain this is going to be my holiday turkey process this year.  Not sure if anyone tried it but apple juice is fabulous for a pork injection base.  I reduce sugar to .5% when using it.


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## mski2 (Oct 18, 2018)

Hi, Dave good morning , I'm still deciding to debone or not, might make sausage out of one.
sounds like a plan to cut up and freeze. I will report back .
Thanks for the info.
Mark


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## chopsaw (Oct 18, 2018)

mski2 said:


> I'm still deciding to debone or not,


Is this a picnic shoulder you are using ? If so I would leave the bone in . Pork butt I take the bone out . You asked about skin on or off . I cure the picnics with the skin on , then remove it for smoking .


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## mski2 (Oct 18, 2018)

zwiller said:


> Not sure how i missed this but LIKE!  This is very close to my own process that I've gleaned from you guys here.  Fairly certain this is going to be my holiday turkey process this year.  Not sure if anyone tried it but apple juice is fabulous for a pork injection base.  I reduce sugar to .5% when using it.



Apple Juice ! good idea, I saw a Youtube of a English butcher cutting up a pork leg, said the pork he had was fed what was left over from making cider,


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## zwiller (Oct 18, 2018)

Apple juice totally takes any "oink" out.  The result is a very fresh smell.  Have not made cure fare with it but plan to use it on next batch of CB.  

Anytime I have 2 of something I try something different and do a shoot out.  I suggest leaving bone in one and debone the other and see what wins.  Or 1 apple juice and one veggie stock.  I try to keep it scientific and only change one variable so I can learn from it.


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## mski2 (Oct 18, 2018)

I think Im going to try one with apple and one like Dave did
Bone in.
Will report back.
Mark


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## ab canuck (Oct 19, 2018)

It looks Great, I remember reading this, thought I had commented on it, apparently I did not. So I went to try the tag as I am going to be doing hams soon. And here I am again. Definite Like.


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## daveomak (Oct 19, 2018)

Thanks....


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## browneyesvictim (Oct 19, 2018)

Dave... As a report back to you... I mentioned earlier in this thread I would be doing all the curing and smoking of our home raised hogs with this method. I did all the cuts of hams, picnics and hocks of 3 hogs over the last few months. Yes, that was a lot of work, and I am glad I am finally done, but let me tell you something...  I have had no other ham that compares to this process/method! Thank you for all your valued input and your patience with my many silly questions over PM- particularly about what I have learned from you with the use of phosphates and injection method. Cheers pal!


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## daveomak (Oct 19, 2018)

WOW !!!   Thanks...  My pleasure...  After all the help members have given me, over the many years on this forum, it feels good to be able to help others with what I have found...  A lot of the folks that helped me are no longer hanging around here... Soooo, when I leave, there will be some of my stuff to pass on...  Just paying it forward....


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## angryengineer (Oct 20, 2018)

Any preferences in the brand of vegetable stock? I use veggie stock for my turkey brine and found That there is a wide range of flavors between the brands.


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## chopsaw (Oct 20, 2018)

angryengineer said:


> Any preferences in the brand of vegetable stock? I use veggie stock for my turkey brine and found That there is a wide range of flavors between the brands.


Be happy to here your take on it . 
I use un salted / on sale .


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## pc farmer (Oct 20, 2018)

I use low salt here.  Any brand that is cheap.


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## daveomak (Oct 21, 2018)

angryengineer said:


> Any preferences in the brand of vegetable stock? I use veggie stock for my turkey brine and found That there is a wide range of flavors between the brands.




Only brand i like...


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## johndeer (Oct 22, 2018)

I am going to pull the trigger and do one of these.
I am gathering all the supplies at the moment and was wondering if this ingredient is the same as the Amesphos you are using?
This has to be absolutely amazing in taste!
I could eat that pic of the finished ham all day.


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## chopsaw (Oct 22, 2018)

That's what I use , per Dave's direction . Yes they come out so good .


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## pc farmer (Oct 22, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> That's what I use , per Dave's direction . Yes they come out so good .




Me too.   Same stuff


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## daveomak (Oct 23, 2018)

I use it...  I'm not sure if AMES PHOS is a proprietary blend or not...  I use both...


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## angryengineer (Oct 26, 2018)

Ok, so I am wondering what is the conventional wisdom surrounding phosphates and Disodium Inosinate & Disodium Guanylate. These are commonly found in pork “injections” and/or rubs that supposedly win contests. So my questions:
1) Are these ingredients healthy to eat? 
2) Why don’t professional restaurant chefs use them and/or recommend them since they seem to be a leg up on the competition?
3) Do contest winning flavors align with what we really enjoy eating? (1 excellent bite versus a plate full)

Please know that I am not a food chemical nazi, rather just trying to understand additive “chemicals” vs other “natural ways”


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## daveomak (Oct 26, 2018)

If you add salt to food, you are adding a chemical...   If you add smoke to meats, you are adding chemicals...  If you drink water, you are adding chemicals to your body... 
If it makes the food taste better, use it...   Chicken stock is full of chemicals... BBQ sauce, Soy sauce, Ketchup......

Read the link below...

https://academicjournals.org/article/article1380894469_Long et al.pdf

...


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## daveomak (Oct 26, 2018)

These descriptions are from the manufacturer....


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## smokin peachey (Oct 27, 2018)

Do you think apple cider (not vinegar) could be used instead of vegetable broth?
A lot of locals make apple cider around here. It is only pressed apple no preservatives or other junk (except the bugs that are in the apples) :D


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## daveomak (Oct 28, 2018)

NO....    Acid screws up the action of cure...  nitrite....  
May I suggest you try the recipe AS-IS... Check the results...  then alter it...

*Fruit Juice pH Levels*
Apples, oranges, grapes and cranberries are all moderately acidic. Cranberry juice is the most acidic, with an approximate pH value of 2.3 to 2.5. Grape juice has a pH of 3.3; apple juice has an approximate pH value of between 3.35 and 4; the pH of orange juice ranges from 3.3 to 4.2.


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## smokin peachey (Oct 28, 2018)

daveomak said:


> NO....    Acid screws up the action of cure...  nitrite....
> May I suggest you try the recipe AS-IS... Check the results...  then alter it...
> 
> *Fruit Juice pH Levels*
> Apples, oranges, grapes and cranberries are all moderately acidic. Cranberry juice is the most acidic, with an approximate pH value of 2.3 to 2.5. Grape juice has a pH of 3.3; apple juice has an approximate pH value of between 3.35 and 4; the pH of orange juice ranges from 3.3 to 4.2.




Thanks for the info. I have used this method in the past with success. I had seen someone else in this thread mentioned using apple juice so that it what made me think of cider.


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## zwiller (Oct 28, 2018)

Sorry for throwing this thread off track with the apple juice suggestion Dave.  Honestly though, you (finally) took the bait.  :p  I wanted to know your opinion of the cure/juice combination.  Thanks.  I'll start another thread since this interests me.  Last thing I will say apple juice/cider is crazy good injected in butt for PP.  

My MIL ran pro kitchens, school, lodges, yacht club, and her go to for ham (her Easter ham was was veggie stock so I know it works well.


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## daveomak (Oct 28, 2018)

Apple juice/ Cider is fine for pulled pork...   The acid dissolves the meat..  if left too long, it may turn to mush....  Pulled pork doesn't have cure in it...  it's' cooked to 200-205 ish for tenderness.....   very different than trying to safely cure meat and prevent botulism at the same time, at home...


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## james211 (Nov 6, 2018)

Having a hard time finding STPP, the Ames is backordered, and the other one from Pronto foods is not available either.  Any chance this would work?


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## daveomak (Nov 6, 2018)

I'd check on this one....   NSF....  certified for treating drinking water...   One member has used it in his meatloaf...  Said it was the moistest meatloaf ever made....   It has lots of uses...   Keep the addition, in meat, down to around 0.3-0.5% by weight....

*Sodium Tripolyphosphate (2.5 lb) by Pure Organic Ingredients, Eco-Friendly Packaging, Helps Soften Water (Also available in 0.5 lb, 1 lb, 50 lb)*
*Product Features*
*Sodium Tripolyphosphate NSF/ANSI 60: Drinking Water Treatment Chemicals*

*


*


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## daveomak (Nov 6, 2018)

I have info for adding to other stuff....  Lots of info on the internet...  It's used world wide in food additions...


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## james211 (Nov 8, 2018)

Okay so here is what I did...

The ham (yes its raw, fresh, unbrined) was wrapped loosely in plastic wrap as I had the butcher cut it down for me. So I took the ham, shank end, placed it flat side down inside a 2.5g ziplock.  From the open side of the ziplock I worked my way from the outside in and up to the top of the shank injecting brine in all directions and depths.  Now I've sealed the bag and put it in the fridge.

Couple questions:
1.  I could vacuum seal it if that would be beneficial at all, or do I just leave it in the ziplock?  Do I need to worry about any air in the bag?

2.  What determines the length of curing, your write up said 6 days to two weeks?

3.  How did you determine the ratios of salts?  Thankfully my cut was similar in size to your cut so the ratios worked out, but I'm curious.

4.  Lastly, how do you know if your curing is completely successful?


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## daveomak (Nov 8, 2018)

Loose bag is perfect...   If you injected every 1.5", 6 days will work...   two weeks is better....
If you read post#1, you will see where I started with a ~10# picnic ham...  all injected stuff is based on the 10# weight...  from the liquid to STPP, cure, salt and sugar....    The %'s are listed for the correct amounts....


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## james211 (Nov 8, 2018)

Thank you, really excited about this, and frankly quite nervous as well...

Out of curiosity is there any surefire way to know nothing went wrong?  Or is smell the best bet?

I used your first post for injection recipe, I was just curious where the ratios came from in case I wanted to equate them out for larger or smaller amounts.


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## daveomak (Nov 9, 2018)

The ratios.... 1.1 grams per pound of cure#1 is from the USDA...  That number makes meat about 150 ish Ppm nitrite..  The 1.75% salt and 1% sugar....  Those numbers come from many batches of sausage and bacon...  adjusting the salt so you didn't know it was there and the pig flavor came through..  and the sugar, I got tired of sugar burning in the fry pan so I kept reducing it until...... the bacon didn't burn and yet, there was still enough sugar to offset the salty flavor in the bacon or sausage..  After doing extensive reading, seems others have come to the same conclusion on those numbers...  They are a good starting point and can always be tweaked for one's personal taste....  Additional flavoring can be added in the form of spices and herbs, oils and extracts...


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## indaswamp (Nov 12, 2018)

Hey Dave...my local grocer has ~20# fresh hams now!! I will be making one real soon!!!! I plan on following your recipe.


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## pc farmer (Nov 12, 2018)

indaswamp said:


> Hey Dave...my local grocer has ~20# fresh hams now!! I will be making one real soon!!!! I plan on following your recipe.



Nice.  I use this on my 25+ hams and shoulders.    You will love it, so easy and tasty.  So what they charge?


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## indaswamp (Nov 12, 2018)

$1.79/lb. for the whole bone in ham....it will be around $35 bucks for a 20ish lb. ham.


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## pc farmer (Nov 12, 2018)

indaswamp said:


> $1.79/lb. for the whole bone in ham....it will be around $35 bucks for a 20ish lb. ham.



I would pay that, thats cheap


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## indaswamp (Nov 12, 2018)

I thought so too....


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## pc farmer (Nov 12, 2018)

Cheaper then raising them like I do.


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## mski2 (Nov 14, 2018)

Like this cheap?
Makes me wonder !!!


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## smokin peachey (Nov 14, 2018)

Stock up. That’s a good deal.


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## angryengineer (Nov 16, 2018)

Looking for opinions about resting the ham before and after smoking. When I smoke bacon I let it rest in the fridge on wire racks for 2-3 days before smoking to dry and form a pellicle. After smoking I again let it rest for 5-7 days in the fridge on a wire rack to dry and let the smoke mellow. Does anyone do the same technique with a ham? If so, for how long? Any recommendations? Am I over thinking this?


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## daveomak (Nov 16, 2018)

I rest it for as long as my hunger will allow...  Generally I cut off a hunk and put it back in the refer to rest.....


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## james211 (Dec 23, 2018)

Can you have a look at this and let me know.  The meat has some darkish areas...is that normal?  It doesn’t smell bad at all.


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## chopsaw (Dec 23, 2018)

Looks good to me . You going to remove the skin to smoke ?


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## james211 (Dec 23, 2018)

I’m going to rotisserie it on my green egg at around 180° with a mix of apple and pecan. 

As for the skin yes I’ll remove it. 

I was just a bit concerned with the darkish spots...I guess that’s normal?

Obviously I don’t want anyone getting sick


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## james211 (Dec 23, 2018)

Well, I have to say this ham came out incredibly delicious!  I cooked it to 150° then basted it with a mix of maple syrup, brown sugar, nutmeg and clove and finished it with a heavy sprinkling of sugar.

For smoke I did a bit of hickory, apple and pecan. 

Really happy with it.  I thought I took a before pic but some how I didn’t, so here is a sliced photo.


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

James,     Cool.....  So, are you back to normal ????   I see you are happy with the results....  "Incredibly delicious" are pretty strong words...   HAHAHAHAHAHA....   That's what I thought also when I developed this method...  
I'm glad this ham turned out well for you....    It is frustrating until you get it right... I've been there, done that, many times...    Success is to be enjoyed, and all the "valuable learning experiences" (another word for screw ups) are to be remembered as positives leading to your success....  This curing stuff just became very easy for you...  I'm also glad you got out of the "brine curing" and into the "injection curing"...  makes life so much easier and less expensive..
The ham looks delicious....  

..............
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
 ............


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## james211 (Dec 24, 2018)

Well I love making mistakes...kind of the story of my life for everything first time around. The only concerning part for me was the color of the meat, but after a good trimming it came out beautiful. Had a bite of ham this morning and its so darn good. Can't wait to watch the jaws drop on Christmas Day.


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## chopsaw (Dec 24, 2018)

james211 said:


> Had a bite of ham this morning and its so darn good. Can't wait to watch the jaws drop on Christmas Day.



Yep Happy it turned out . I've done 5 since Dave helped me learn this , and I'm almost out again . This is one thing that I don't change or add to . Just so good as is . 
Enjoy .


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## james211 (Dec 24, 2018)

Also, I created this spreadsheet to help calculate the ratios of each ingredient for the injection.  All the cells are locked except for the ham weight.  You enter the weight in pounds, and it calculates each ingredient.


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

Can't see it......


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## chopsaw (Dec 24, 2018)

Had to down load , then enable edit . Seems to work good . Just checked it against my notes . 
Nice


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

how do I change the weight of the ham ??


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## chopsaw (Dec 24, 2018)

Dave go in the top tool bar , enable edit .


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

I click on edit ..... then what....


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## chopsaw (Dec 24, 2018)

daveomak said:


> I click on edit ..... then what....


highlite the cell for the ham weight , delete then add ur value , hit enter . It will change the rest of the amounts


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## pc farmer (Dec 24, 2018)

That's nice to have      Thanks


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

It won't delete so I can't add a value....   I have started my Excel viewer and started editable excel program also...  
I don't have excel and these programs, I have serious trouble with...  
Soooo, I still have my slide rule from 9th grade algebra class....   HAHAHAHAHAHA


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## james211 (Dec 24, 2018)

Haha...

I tried to post it as a link for google sheets but the forum didn’t like it. Let me try again, click here!

Just click on cell B1 and type a number


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2018)

HEY !!!!!!!!   That works....  even idiots like me can use it now....  

Thanks......


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## motocrash (Dec 24, 2018)

Saw the recent wave of activity on this thread and figured I'd check it out.Glad I did!Thanks 

 james211
  and thank you once again 

 daveomak
.


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## chopsaw (Dec 24, 2018)

James , thanks for that .


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## pc farmer (Dec 24, 2018)

Now I dont have to write everything down.  Thanks James.


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## james211 (Dec 31, 2018)

Quick question....I'm celebrating a late Christmas with my dad and he asked if I could cook a ham, this was yesterday.  So I went out and bought a fresh ham and injected it last night.  I know you said 6 days minimum, is there any exception to that? I don't use a traditional smoker, I use a green egg and rotisserie the meat, typically cooking around 225-250.  Just curious, cause I'd love to cook it on Friday afternoon so he has some time to snack on the ham in addition to serving it for a meal.


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## daveomak (Dec 31, 2018)

The ingredients may not be thoroughly disbursed...  Unequal distribution...  If you injected every 1 1/2" or so, it will be close...    The 6 days minimum is primarily for the nitrite to penetrate to all portions of the ham and  protect from botulism...   Since you will be cooking at 225+ ish, pathogens and especially botulism won't be a problem...
Get the internal temp of the ham up to 160 ish...  I personally like ham cooked to 170 ish..  the meat gets a little more tender..  You won't have to worry about a dry ham with the STPP and veggie stock...  
Once folks have tasted the ham, you will be the NEW ham maker in the family...  which ain't a bad thing..


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## james211 (Dec 31, 2018)

Great!   I have no problems being the meat man, ham man whatever they come up with.  I just love cooking delicious meat. 

Thanks for your advice. Given this cut is quite small, about 8lbs the distribution should be pretty good.  I’ll continue to massage it and maybe that will help.


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## daveomak (Dec 31, 2018)




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## JZ_Focus (Jan 2, 2019)

My buddy & I will be doing our annual hog butchering next Friday & Saturday.  I guess I'm going to be getting a few ingredients together to give this a shot.  Just so that I understand, all the mixed ingredients get injected and there is nothing for the ham to "soak in", except for what may leak out I guess?  I just want to be sure I'm doing this correctly.


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## daveomak (Jan 2, 2019)

You got it....  Inject what you want / need in the meat... Injections should be about 1 to 1.5" apart for thorough coverage... wait 6 days or longer...  smoke....
......*IMPORTANT*.......
Mix in the order listed....
1.... STPP
2.... sugar
3.... salt
4.... Cure#1


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## james211 (Jan 2, 2019)

If anyone is interested, I picked one of these up and it made a huge difference with injecting.  Prior I was just using a syringe and had very little control over the amount injecting.


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## ddufore (Feb 10, 2019)

Time to report in.
Used the information in this thread to do a pork sirloin roast. Cured pork according to the guidance given. Cold smoked with one full tray of apple and cob pellets, rested a day and then cooked over homemade lump to 150*. Rested overnight uncovered, then vacuumed packed and into the fridge for three days. Ham was awesome. Thanks, Dave, for this method. You da man!!
Sorry, struggling to post this. Pics are not in order


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## chopsaw (Feb 10, 2019)

Looks good . I need to get another one going .


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## ddufore (Feb 10, 2019)

The pork was 99 cents a pound so I only had about $4 invested in meat. If I messed things up I wasn’t going to be out much. It was delicious.


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## daveomak (Feb 10, 2019)

I'm glad you enjoyed the recipe and what it made for your family....   Perfect....


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## ddufore (Feb 10, 2019)

You named it correctly. Easy peasy. And yummy.


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## daveomak (Feb 10, 2019)




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## thirdeye (Jun 24, 2020)

Hi Dave,  I'm trying your recipe for the first time and working with the shank end of a 5.5 pound shoulder picnic, and have a few questions.  I'm on day 4 in the cure. 








1. I was able to inject all but about 1/4 cup of the injection, which I added to the bag the picnic has re-absorbed some of that excess, but should I expect it to absorb all of it?

2. Your recommended curing time was 6 to 14 days..... Would 9 or 10 days work for the 5.5 # weight I'm working with?

3.  I see some are using netting while smoking.  About the closest thing I have are some big game 1/4 bags, the cheese cloth style. Does the netting stick to the meat?   Is netting mandatory if not I have custom make hanging hooks I can use, maybe using some cooking twine to sort of shape the roast.


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## daveomak (Jun 24, 2020)

A 5.5# leg roast should have used, 5.5 X 454 = ~2500 grams at 10% = 250 cc's of injection fluid...  which is about 1 cup of liquid you needed to inject...  Considering the amount of bone in that leg, perhaps mixing all of the needed ingredients into a 5% injection brine would have been a better choice...  "How would you have known that ????"   You wouldn't have..  My mistake not addressing the "bone volume" when doing an injection and also the bone weight when weighing out the needed ingredients......  estimating the weight of the bone, at say 20% the weight of the leg you could have used 20% less injection liquid and 20% less of the ingredients....
NO WORRIES....   even 25% variation of the ingredients keeps you in the "acceptable and safe" range for curing that "gonna be delicious" leg...
The liquid in the bag, probably will NOT absorb all of the liquid due to the bone...
After eating that glorious beasts leg, weigh the bones and let us all know what's what...  
If that's a pork shank, the bone could be upwards of 50% the weight...   If you like the results, the bone weight will give you some direction for the next one...  and us also...  Shanks are great eating....  great flavor...  they do a lot of work...  that makes for great flavor....  Don't I know it !!!!!!!


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## daveomak (Jun 24, 2020)

OH ?????   Time....   5  days should be fine if you injected every 1.5"...  in all directions..


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## thirdeye (Jun 24, 2020)

daveomak said:


> A 5.5# leg roast should have used, 5.5 X 454 = ~2500 grams at 10% = 250 cc's of injection fluid...  which is about 1 cup of liquid you needed to inject...  Considering the amount of bone in that leg, perhaps mixing all of the needed ingredients into a 5% injection brine would have been a better choice...  "How would you have known that ????"   You wouldn't have..  My mistake not addressing the "bone volume" when doing an injection and also the bone weight when weighing out the needed ingredients......  estimating the weight of the bone, at say 20% the weight of the leg you could have used 20% less injection liquid and 20% less of the ingredients....
> NO WORRIES....   even 25% variation of the ingredients keeps you in the "acceptable and safe" range for curing that "gonna be delicious" leg...
> The liquid in the bag, probably will NOT absorb all of the liquid due to the bone...
> After eating that glorious beasts leg, weigh the bones and let us all know what's what...
> If that's a pork shank, the bone could be upwards of 50% the weight...   If you like the results, the bone weight will give you some direction for the next one...  and us also...  Shanks are great eating....  great flavor...  they do a lot of work...  that makes for great flavor....  Don't I know it !!!!!!!


The bone weight did cross my mind because I make Buckboarded pork chops (3/4" thick) using Tender Quick in a 48 hour dry cure, and I do adjust for the bone.  However, with so many positive reviews and thumbs-up on this recipe, I figured hundreds have tried this without the bone weight deduction, and I always try a recipe "as-is" the first time.  

The reason the weight is light is that my Walmart has 2 options for shoulder picnics and they don't sell an 8 pound roast.  Some roasts favor the shank end, and others favor the butt end (but of course have the shank removed).  But this will work for a test run.  

Not only did I do the manual calculation, I also downloaded the spreadsheet from a satisfied poster in one of the posts.  We are on the same page with 252 grams of stock + the salt, both sugars, and Cure #1.  I mix mine up in a shaker which works well.

Yes, I followed the 1.5" maximum injection pattern.  My injector is adjustable and it meters the amount per pull on the handle.  Nice for something like this as I can draw the needle back out and pump a measured amount at various depths. 

I will save and weigh those bones, although cooked weight might be a tick less than green weight. 















daveomak said:


> OH ?????   Time....   5  days should be fine if you injected every 1.5"...  in all directions..



The 5 days won't quite work on my time table as I want to hot finish a pastrami at the same time after a couple of cold smoke cycles  on the ham.... but at least I have more latitude with my timetable. 

Any insights on using netting?  I have bags for elk quarters, 80" long and 18" in diameter, but they stretch.  I can still hook and tie as needed and skip that step.


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## pc farmer (Jun 24, 2020)

I use this method to cure whole hams.   20+ lbs.  I havent used netting yet.  Cant find any big enough.  I use a hook and hang them.


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## thirdeye (Jun 24, 2020)

pc farmer said:


> I use this method to cure whole hams.   20+ lbs.  I havent used netting yet.  Cant find any big enough.  I use a hook and hang them.



That's good to hear.  I hang a lot of items, most of which need only one hook (if you're trusting)..... but I made some double hooks for special things. I have a sneaking suspicion if I like curing my own hams, a special hook is easy enough to figure out.


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## pc farmer (Jun 24, 2020)




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## daveomak (Jun 25, 2020)

Netting....  Yes I have insight.....   From MY experience, do NOT put on netting prior to completing the injection/curing process...   I think the meat needs to be "relaxed" when injected or dry cured for that matter.... relaxed meat allows for the movement of spices, cures, herbs etc..   Meat under compression, not so much....  At least that was what I found doing many loins....   It's in one of my threads...    I made reference to it somewhere in there....
Netted AFTER curing, and during smoking and cooking......  may keep the meat moist, while using STPP etc.  due to it's water binding properties...   That I'm not sure of...   Just a SWAG ....

Longer than 5 days if fine...  I think it improves flavor going longer than 5 days...  14-20 would be good if you have the room and good temps in your refer....


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## chopsaw (Jun 25, 2020)

thirdeye
 If you end up using netting or a bag , I remove it as soon as the meat is cool enough to handle post smoke . Keeps it from sticking .


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## thirdeye (Jul 7, 2020)

daveomak said:


> A 5.5# leg roast should have used, 5.5 X 454 = ~2500 grams at 10% = 250 cc's of injection fluid...  which is about 1 cup of liquid you needed to inject...  *Considering the amount of bone in that leg, perhaps mixing all of the needed ingredients into a 5% injection brine would have been a better choice...  *"How would you have known that ????"   You wouldn't have..  My mistake not addressing the "bone volume" when doing an injection and also the bone weight when weighing out the needed ingredients......  estimating the weight of the bone, at say 20% the weight of the leg you could have used 20% less injection liquid and 20% less of the ingredients....
> NO WORRIES....   even 25% variation of the ingredients keeps you in the "acceptable and safe" range for curing that "gonna be delicious" leg...
> The liquid in the bag, probably will NOT absorb all of the liquid due to the bone...
> *After eating that glorious beasts leg, weigh the bones and let us all know what's what...
> If that's a pork shank, the bone could be upwards of 50% the weight...   If you like the results, the bone weight will give you some direction for the next one...  and us also.*..  Shanks are great eating....  great flavor...  they do a lot of work...  that makes for great flavor....  Don't I know it !!!!!!!



*Bone weight was 1 lb 3 ounces.*  To refresh our memory, this is likely the best photo of my ham.  It was a 5.5#  (lower) picnic roast which favored the shank end. The other option was an upper picnic which was more squared up in shape since the shank was removed.  Why they don't sell a normal 8# to 9#  full picnic is beyond me, but they were in the cryo, so they came like this from the producer. 






To put it into perspective, looking at a whole picnic, mine was basically to the left of the yellow line.  Can we guesstimate that a full picnic would have 1 lb 7 ounces of bone weight?


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## daveomak (Jul 7, 2020)

Thanks for weighing the bone...

5.5 + 1.3 = 6.8#'s...    1.3/6.8= 19.1%   .......

Let's just figure 20% for bone....


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 7, 2020)

Dave...   what size netting did you use ??   #12... #16 ... #20 ...  (looking at the Craft Butchers) along with the phosphate ...


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## chopsaw (Oct 7, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> what size netting did you use ??


I use #28 for hams . I think that it the largest they have . I used a 10 " pot to help get it on the ham . 
I believe the number size goes by how many squares are around the diameter .


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 7, 2020)

daveomak said:


> Thanks for weighing the bone...
> 
> 5.5 + 1.3 = 6.8#'s...    1.3/6.8= 19.1%   .......
> 
> Let's just figure 20% for bone....



I'm confused...  I would think you would subtract the weight of the bone from the green weight ??


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## disco (Oct 7, 2020)

Great recipe, Dave! Big like!


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## daveomak (Oct 7, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> I'm confused...  I would think you would subtract the weight of the bone from the green weight ??



Yep... You are correct....  My head must have been somewhere I couldn't see the sun shine... 
1.3/5.5 x 100 = 24% bone weight.....

unless I thought the bone had been removed..   I have no idea why I did that....

..


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

OK Dave ...  I'm ready to tackle this tomorrow..  I have all the ingredients except canning/pickling salt... I do have Kosher sea salt and kosher salt... which one would be best for a substitute  ?? I have a 8.38 lb whole picnic .. Nowhere does it say it's been enhanced already...  all natural ...  I was looking for a calculator or something to determine how much of each ingredient to use ??   Can you help me out here with the proper amounts of each ???

  Thanks


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## pc farmer (Oct 24, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> OK Dave ...  I'm ready to tackle this tomorrow..  I have all the ingredients except canning/pickling salt... I do have Kosher sea salt and kosher salt... which one would be best for a substitute  ?? I have a 8.38 lb whole picnic .. Nowhere does it say it's been enhanced already...  all natural ...  I was looking for a calculator or something to determine how much of each ingredient to use ??   Can you help me out here with the proper amounts of each ???
> 
> Thanks



Its will be the best ham you ever had.  Trust me


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## chopsaw (Oct 24, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> Can you help me out here with the proper amounts of each ???


You can down load the calculator in post 94 .


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

Adam...  I'm gonna be taking it to the Gathering in a few weeks...  I always do a maple bourbon ham (store bought) to put in towards Fri. nights dinner...  Since the wife bought a picnic and not knowing what to do with it...  Told her I would cure it and use it for the Gathering ...


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> You can down load the calculator in post 94 .



So I did but it only opens in read only view..   I can't type anything into the weight box...


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## chopsaw (Oct 24, 2020)

Yup . You have to enable edit in the upper tool bar .


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

tried that and it says somebody else has it in edit mode...  go back to read only ..


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## chopsaw (Oct 24, 2020)

Let me check mine . BRB .

I click on enable edit . Then I can enter the meat weight in lbs .


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## pc farmer (Oct 24, 2020)

It still works for me Keith.


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

well..  I can't get it working...  can you put in 8.38 lbs and PM me the results PLEASE ??


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## pc farmer (Oct 24, 2020)




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## pc farmer (Oct 24, 2020)

Sorry for the bad pic.


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 24, 2020)

TY Sir..  that will work


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## thirdeye (Oct 24, 2020)

Now you just have to wait.  This is a wonderful technique.  I have a loin curing as we speak.  HERE is my DaveOmak ham thread where I do a Picnic, a Butt and a Loin over 30 days or so.


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## chopsaw (Oct 24, 2020)

JckDanls 07
  I see you got your numbers . 
I remembered there was a problem for some with the first one he posted . If you go to post 103 he has another version to down load . It really is handy to have . I use it for non curing phosphate injection too .


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## Fueling Around (Oct 24, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> OK Dave ...  I'm ready to tackle this tomorrow..  I have all the ingredients except canning/pickling salt... I do have Kosher sea salt and kosher salt... which one would be best for a substitute  ?? I have a 8.38 lb whole picnic .. Nowhere does it say it's been enhanced already...  all natural ...  I was looking for a calculator or something to determine how much of each ingredient to use ??   Can you help me out here with the proper amounts of each ???
> 
> Thanks


Most any salt is good to use if one goes by weight and not volume.

Good luck and hopefully you will have them asking to do it again


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

Thanks for the help everybody... I'm going to cut back on the salt amount though as I am not a big fan of salt ... just how much to cut back is going to be the question ...


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> If you go to post 103


  There ya go..  that one works without even downloading it...  which I like better ... Thanks again everybody ...


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

got everything mixed up..  cut salt (Kosher) back to 50 g ..


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## daveomak (Oct 25, 2020)

What was the salt originally calculate to be ???


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## daveomak (Oct 25, 2020)

What does the ham weigh ???

Is it enhanced ???


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

Dave..  it was not enhanced..  8.38 lbs  ...  75g of salt called for.. cut it back to 50g ... just broke my syringe  trying to poke through the skin... gotta make a mad dash and try to find another one...


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

ok..  got it all injected and in the fridge for a nap...  

Listen up ...  *DO NOT   *mix ingredients in a red solo cup and try to fill syringe...   poked a hole in the cup with the needle...  lost a little bit of liquid...  hope it will be ok..  think i will let it go a few more days (7-8) for that reason ...


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## chopsaw (Oct 25, 2020)

I use a Mason jar so I can give it a good shake . Also found out that longer time curing seems to make it more tender . I'll be watching . You are in for a treat . Best ham I've ever eaten .


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 25, 2020)

Like the mason jar idea...  Another thing I did....   The liquid in the bag (as I was injecting down inside a 2 1/2 gal. bag) I would pour back into the cup and reinject until all liquid was in the meat...  So I feel good about saturation in and around the bone ...


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## thirdeye (Oct 25, 2020)

JckDanls 07 said:


> Like the mason jar idea...  Another thing I did....   The liquid in the bag (as I was injecting down inside a 2 1/2 gal. bag) I would pour back into the cup and reinject until all liquid was in the meat...  So I feel good about saturation in and around the bone ...


Yes this is a good plan. I give the meat about 10 minutes in between Re-injections. I think it's the phosphates that cause the injection to thicken.  I notice the same thing with competition brisket injections.


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## daveomak (Oct 26, 2020)

JD, morning.....  OK....  The calculator you are  using defaults to 2% salt...
I find 2% salt is too salty for my liking..
I've tested and like 1.75% salt...  along with the 0.25% cure#1, the TOTAL salt is 2%...  along with 1% sugar, I can't taste the salt...
8.38# ham would have used 67 grams of salt..


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 26, 2020)

Thanks Dave for the help..  I ended up only using 50g of salt..  we'll see what happens... will adjust next time if needed ...


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 31, 2020)

OK then...  picnic has been under cure since last Sun. ..  will be 7 days tomorrow... 

Now comes my dilemma ...  Being that it won't be needed for 2 weeks (for the S. FL. Gathering)...  Wanting to know the best way to go about this... vac seal now..  hot smoke at Gathering... warm smoke (low temp) now and reheat at gathering...  Like Dave did here >>>           https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...-no-mess-disclaimer-money.276489/post-1844797 ....    or something different... ??

And then..  what's going to be the best practice for storing it for this 2 week wait... vac seal and refreeze...  vac seal and keep in fridge... something different ..  ?? If I even have a bag big enough to vac seal it... 

Looking forward to y'alls response...

  Thanks


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2020)

Hey Jack, if your fridge is 38 or lower, the ham will be good for another week...  Then I would smoke it...  maybe to 140-145 and hold for a couple hours to pasteurize it...   
Are you going to slice it for cold cuts ??  with crackers and cheese or what ??
If so, slice it, vac pack the slices and sous-vide at 138-140 until it's pasteurized again... then it  will keep for weeks at 134F..
If you want to serve it whole, I don't know other than freezing it..


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## james211 (Oct 5, 2022)

daveomak
 What’s the longest you can let the ham cure?  Also, this is probably addressed but what is the difference between soaking the ham vs injecting?


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## james211 (Oct 19, 2022)

is this thread dead?


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## Bearcarver (Oct 19, 2022)

james211 said:


> is this thread dead?


I wouldn't say "Dead".
More like "not used much lately".
If you have a question for the "OP" 

 daveomak
 , he should be along soon.

Bear


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## flatbroke (Oct 19, 2022)

Yeah not dead.


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## thirdeye (Oct 19, 2022)

This thread is a milestone for curing shoulder hams (butt or picnic) and pork loin for a Canadian bacon like product.  I have not tried it on a rear leg ham, but I believe others have.  

My cure times are 14 to 16 days.  I would not hesitate to cure for 20 days.  I'm sure Dave will chime in to answer your question.


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Oct 19, 2022)

I used this to do a Pork Butt ham couple weeks ago.  I guess its just my taste buds but the veg stock gives a flavor I don't carwe to much for.  I thought it was the other brand I tried lasttime but I ordered some of that Basic unsalted.  I will still use the injection but just use water from now on.


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## james211 (Oct 19, 2022)

I've done the injection technique before, I'm mostly curious how it differs from a soak brine.  Soak brine's seem shorter then injection, I would have thought it would be opposite.

Also 

 Bearcarver
 I saw you mention somewhere you don't use Cure #1, you use TQ.  What is TQ?


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## zwiller (Oct 19, 2022)

There are a few drawings in Marianski's green book that illustrate it but injecting provides a more uniform salt distribution within the meat.  In a dry or wet brine the exterior will always be saltier than the center even with an equalization step.  Injecting fixes that.  Not sure where you saw it but stick to your gut, injecting IS faster, WAY faster.  IE common cure penetration rate for dry or soak is 1/4" per day.  Same applies at EVERY injection point so were talking weeks vs days.  The method 

 daveomak
 shared here is essentially a modern production method pros use converted for use for us hobbyists.


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## thirdeye (Oct 19, 2022)

james211 said:


> I've done the injection technique before, *I'm mostly curious how it differs from a soak brine.* Soak brine's seem shorter then injection, I would have thought it would be opposite.


Well, injection puts the curing brine into the meat (and around the bone in the case of a picnic) from the very beginning of the process, so there is no delay time with respect to the liquid, salt and cure diffusion into the meat like you have with a covering brine cure.   Depending on how you look at it.... This saves several days of time, or gives the brine more time to work it's magic. 

I usually have some leftover curing brine that the meat will not take, so I add that to the bag.  This is not a true combination cure, but the cup or so of liquid does get absorbed.  I overhaul daily.


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## SmokinEdge (Oct 19, 2022)

In this recipe, kitchen basics no salt is not replaceable for this recipe in my experience.

Also I run this 14 days for final production, and I can tell you from experience that 30 days is too long, you may start to get mold, this is because of the low salt (1.5%) in my experience 20 days is maximum and it is still the best ham I’ve ever made or eaten for that matter.


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## Bearcarver (Oct 20, 2022)

james211 said:


> I've done the injection technique before, I'm mostly curious how it differs from a soak brine.  Soak brine's seem shorter then injection, I would have thought it would be opposite.
> 
> Also
> 
> ...



TQ stands for "Tender Quick", which is a Curing mix formulated & sold by "Morton Salt". It's made with home curing in mind. The mix includes Cure #1, Salt, Sugar, and a few other things. I've been using it for 13 years & love it.

Bear


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2022)

BrianGSDTexoma said:


> I used this to do a Pork Butt ham couple weeks ago.  I guess its just my taste buds but the veg stock gives a flavor I don't care to much for.  I thought it was the other brand I tried last time but I ordered some of that Basic unsalted.  I will still use the injection but just use water from now on.



Many folks found other brands had an off flavor in this recipe...  The Kitchen Basics seemed to be the best flavor of veggie stock...
14 days gave the best flavor when curing the pig...
When trying a new recipe, it is best to follow the recipe to the letter the first time you try it...


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## james211 (Nov 16, 2022)

once injected, how often do you rotate?  I'm sure its in the thread some where, but I can't find it at a glance. This is the problem with not doing this often enough!  I forget my techniques!


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## daveomak (Nov 16, 2022)

I turn every 2-3 days...  The injection has to travel about 1 1/2 inches to fully cure all the meat IF you inject about every 2"...


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