# Cold Smoking Modification



## hawkce541

Good Morning all,

I have been reading up on cold smoking cheese, (mainly by Mister T), and came across this picture.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 4, 2017






 I really like this concept and I'm in the process of modding my Char-broil electric smoker into this configuration.  I will be using a steel 2 drawer file cabinet for the base, and have the A-maze-N smoker in the bottom.  The outlet will be where the top drawer is, but the only part of the top drawer that will be left is the drawer face and it will be sealed off.  I was wondering if Mister T or anyone else has more pictures with different views of this smoker.  Any tips or comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Hawk


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## mr t 59874

I have no further pictures of this unit other than what was in the thread, which you have already viewed. http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/243936/cleaning-up-your-act-clean-smoke-is-delicious-smoke

If space allows, I would suggest you place the piping in a horizontal position with each section on a slight incline. Before placing the cart before the horse, I suggest you start with the box in which you intend to place the smoke generator. The efficiency of it will determine the length of piping required to reduce heat to an acceptable limit. Many are using a small mailbox which requires more piping.

If you feel I can help with your build, please ask.

T


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## hawkce541

Thanks for the reply.  I'm going to work on it when I get home this afternoon, and I'll post pictures for you to eyeball before anything is set in stone.


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## johnmeyer

I am in awe of that build and have read that thread many times.

However, I am not convinced that you need to add _*that *_much pipe in order to both cool the smoke and condense the bad stuff.

I am still a relative neophyte, so bear that in mind as I offer the following suggestion. I also offer this because of what I learned in years of engineering, namely, you design in increments, and then start doing modifications. By doing things this way, you know if you are really making a difference, and you don't waste both time and money building what may turn out to be a severely "over-designed" contraption.

So, my recommendation is to build your mod and use just a few feet of tubing. Do a smoke and then inspect the tubing to see how much gunk is in the tubes. When I built my external "mailbox mod" I made a mistake and bought the wrong duct to extend the distance between the external can and the MES. Here is the thread that describes my experience:  Mailbox (Popcorn) Mod (with a small twist). As you will see if you read that thread, I ended up with nothing more than two short elbows between my external can and the MES. I am actually not tempted to add any more duct. Read below to understand why.

I started experimenting with using a filter instead of simply adding more and more and more lengths of duct, a design approach that results in a product that is tedious to build and install, impossible to clean, and difficult to store. I don't know what it might be like in a wind.

While my initial filter material was a total failure, the Scotch Brite stainless steel scrubbers are working amazingly well, and are collecting 100x more gunk than the duct. This is not a mindless statement but instead is based on actual measurement. I am able to clean every part of my external smoker in my ultrasonic cleaner between smokes. My little lengths of duct get light brown inside, but the filter gets full of gunk (I posted pics on the 2nd page of that thread). When I put the duct elbows into the cleaner, I can see the stuff come off, and the cleaning solution gets darker from the gunk, but is still somewhat clear. However, when I put the filter in there, the cleaning solution turns almost black. There simply is no comparison: the filters are far, far more efficient at collecting gunk that then duct.

There is a reason why you see filters in so many industrial processes involving cleaning particulate matter out of gasses.

Then, if you take a look at the pics of the can lid (on page two of that thread), you'll see that it has more gunk than anything else. If I were to sketch out a design of something that might work even better than my current design, I'd create something with the _thinnest possible metal _for the lid, and then create a cone-shaped container so that the top was as large as possible. You want the thin material so that the outside air keeps it at ambient temperature (if you put water into two glasses of different thicknesses, the thinner one will condense the water from the air more quickly).

So, even if you don't want to build something like I built, I would recommend you start with almost no duct, but then add a filter. Then, buy three feet of duct, insert that, and see how much stuff is in the duct after 5-10 hours of smoking, and compare that to what was collected in the filter and the can.

In case you don't get around to reading that other thread, here are a few pics from that thread to go with what I wrote above:

Before the smoke:













Before_zpstwkn26zm.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Apr 2, 2017






After the smoke:













After_zpsgekclsoz.jpg



__ johnmeyer
__ Apr 2, 2017






I did not show the inside of the duct (shown at right), but it was very, very light brown -- absolutely _nothing _like the filter and the lid.


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## hawkce541

Did you put the filter by the inlet side, or the outlet to the smoker?


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## mr t 59874

Not having a degree in engineering or an ultrasonic cleaner, I do have experience and attempt to use common sense.

As mentioned in my first post, it was recommended that we start from your firebox and go from there. Our target is to reduce the smoke temperature to ambient temperature or below. Using a thin material in the construction of your firebox will no doubt aid in keeping the firebox close to ambient temperature, but I prefer to keep the firebox below ambient so it is my preference to use a thicker material.

The use of a material within the piping may well aid in the collection of creosote and tars, and may aid in being able to shorten the pipe length as far as cleaning, but it would aid little in cooling. It would also interfere with the free flowing draft, which would have to be considered in the design of the cold smoker. If I were to use a filter material in my particular setup, I would place the material within the firebox itself rather than in the piping, but I have found no need for it.

In order to eliminate confusion, if you feel that I can help in the future, feel free to contact me via PM.

Good luck and enjoy working on your build.

T


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## masonsjax

That might be a good experiment too, running once with the filter close to the smoke, and again with it close to the pit.

I'm just wondering how much of what is condensing on the filter is desirable? Some color is a good thing right? I think​ if we were to filter everything out, there wouldn't be any smoke left to flavor the food. I know ssome of it is harsh tasting, but at what point is the bad stuff all gone? My tubing is pretty clean near the pit end, but certain parts of the pit are sticky from smoke on the inside. Is it any smoke encountering a lower temperature surface that causes that sticky resin to form, or direction of smoke velocity? Perhaps once the smoke is cooled sufficiently, the nasties are gone? I'm curious about all of this.


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## mr t 59874

masonsjax said:


> That might be a good experiment too, running once with the filter close to the smoke, and again with it close to the pit.
> 
> I'm just wondering how much of what is condensing on the filter is desirable? Some color is a good thing right? I think​ if we were to filter everything out, there wouldn't be any smoke left to flavor the food. I know ssome of it is harsh tasting, but at what point is the bad stuff all gone? My tubing is pretty clean near the pit end, but certain parts of the pit are sticky from smoke on the inside. Is it any smoke encountering a lower temperature surface that causes that sticky resin to form, or direction of smoke velocity? Perhaps once the smoke is cooled sufficiently, the nasties are gone? I'm curious about all of this.


You have the right idea as far as your product chamber being tacky. This is why it is important, when cold smoking, that the smoke temperature be kept as close to the product chamber and your product being smoked temperature as possible. In short, it eliminates condensation.

T


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## hawkce541

Well, the kids and wife were gone yesterday, so I had the whole afternoon to myself.  I had this 2 drawer file cabinet sitting around that my #^@$#& brother-in-law left laying around.  I separated the drawer face from the upper drawer and taped the drawer face in place.  I shaped the drawer bottom by hand and marked it where I would need to cut out some notches for clearance.  I then used the drawer bottom to make a baffle.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017






I screwed the lower part of the baffle with sheet metal screws and sealed it with aluminum tape.  I got lucky and the upper part actually"snapped" into place on the upper drawer roller guide.  This left about 3/8" - 1/2" gap.  I then drilled some air inlet holes below the baffle and the exhaust just above it.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017


















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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017






I had bought a dryer exhaust duct for a rental house that didn't need it after all, so I put it to use and did a test run with enough pellets for about 3 hours.  I wanted to make sure it was getting enough air to stay burning and to check for leaks with the smoke escaping.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017






It leaked from the top of the back where it was only tack welded and I sealed that with aluminum tape.  It also leaked from the lower drawer face and where the dryer vent attaches, but I knew that and have sealant coming for the dryer vent.  I will also put a gasket around the drawer face, possible securing the drawer with latches, but I don't think that'll be necessary.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017






Momma doesn't like ugly stuff in the yard so I hit it with some primer, while I was strolling around drinking a beer admiring it..... still work to be done, but not bad for a start.













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 5, 2017






A couple hours later.  It finally burned out about 9.  No pellets left.


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## hawkce541

I was just looking at the pictures, and the thought crossed my mind, that if I extended that dryer vent to the full 8ft. and snaked it back and forth until it reaches the product chamber, I might not need the other vent tubes.  I had put my hand in the exhaust of the dryer vent and it was a little warm, but not much.  Oh, by the way, my smoker will be mounted on top of the file cabinet.  I'm getting to the point that I don't like bending over that much. (motorcycle wrecks)


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## johnmeyer

Hawkce541 said:


> Did you put the filter by the inlet side, or the outlet to the smoker?


I put the filter at the point where the two elbows join together, i.e., at the midpoint between the can and the smoker.


Mr T 59874 said:


> Not having a degree in engineering or an ultrasonic cleaner, I do have experience and attempt to use common sense.


Geez, what did I do to deserve _that??_ I identified myself, as everyone does, when I joined the forum. I have an engineering degree, others have marketing degrees, some don't have any degrees. So what? And yes, I have an ultrasonic cleaner, and started a thread a few months ago to share with everyone why I thought it was a neat thing to have for those who want to have an easier time cleaning up after a smoke. Here is that thread: Ultrasonic Cleaner.

The thing that tweaked me was the implication that somehow I don't have common sense. Engineering is where science meets common sense.


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## hawkce541

johnmeyer said:


> The thing that tweaked me was the implication that somehow I don't have common sense. Engineering is where science meets common sense.


I'm going to experiment with the filter method and I'll post the results.  Also, no offense to you, but I've worked in aviation for 24 years, and I've only seen a handful of engineers with common sense, or practical knowledge.  They were either mechanics before they became engineers or they had been engineers for decades.  The ones that get out of high school and go straight to college and come out "engineers" are lost in the sauce.  Those are the ones that can tell you theory, but can't comprehend when the theory doesn't work.


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## johnmeyer

Hawkce541 said:


> The ones that get out of high school and go straight to college and come out "engineers" are lost in the sauce.  Those are the ones that can tell you theory, but can't comprehend when the theory doesn't work.


You have a point there, but it is a matter of the training. The state schools actually do a pretty good job turning out engineers who actually know how a TV set works. By contrast, a lot of the "name brand" schools turn out engineers who know all the theory, but couldn't replace a fuse in their car.


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## hawkce541

Ok people,  I just did a full run to check temperatures.  It looks a little ghetto right now, but I'm building a base for the product chamber to sit on tomorrow.  As of right now the top rack is almost eye level and I'm 5'11.  After a full tray of pellets, the only thing left was ash and the temperature never split more than 2 degrees.  Actually the lower of the temperatures was inside the chamber not ambient temp.  I tested the probes when the thermometer arrived and they both read 212 in boiling water.  So, I think they aren't as accurate at lower temps.  I will be playing with some "cheap" cheese on a trial run this weekend. 













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 7, 2017


















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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 7, 2017


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## dabigbozman

I'm making plans to raise mine too, I'm 6'3" and it's a PITA to work with anything but the top shelf


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## mr t 59874

Looks like you have her dialed in as your temps have met the goal of 1°- 2° of ambient. With the length of piping being used, the cabinet is doing a good job of acting as a heat sink.

Good job,

T


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## hawkce541

Mr T 59874 said:


> Looks like you have her dialed in as your temps have met the goal of 1°- 2° of ambient. With the length of piping being used, the cabinet is doing a good job of acting as a heat sink.
> 
> Good job,
> 
> T


Thank you sir.  Kind words from a smoking guru.  (Bowing...Bowing)


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## johnmeyer

You said that you are building a base for the "product chamber" (I assume you mean the black smoker sitting on top). When you do that, you might want to give some thought to whether you have enough lateral stability for the whole thing. I live in earthquake land (California) and after a few decades of shaking, it becomes second nature to look at things and imagine them tipping over. Even if you don't have earthquakes, you do have wind, and you perhaps have kids or grandchildren who might come along and run into the thing. I'd imagine that the top is heavier than the bottom, something that will accentuate the tendency to tip over.

Filing cabinets are notorious for falling over when loaded on the top shelf, with the bottom shelves empty. People usually load them starting with the top, because it is easier to access the top without stooping over.

So, when you build your support for the top part, you might want to construct some feet, or something similar, that go sideways at least a couple of feet.

BTW, using a metal filing cabinet is really cool. My only other bit of advice on that is to make sure you do a good long smoke initially, before using it on food, just to make sure that the factory paint and residual oil on the drawer runners on the inside of the cabinet gets covered up pretty well. If the cabinet was made prior to the mid 1970s, the paint might contain lead. As long as it gets coated, you'll be fine. We had lead pipes at the home where I grew up but like millions of others, we had no problems because the pipes got coated with calcium and other residue from the hardness in the water, and lead didn't make it into the water. I think the same will be true in this case, as long as you get a coating started before you use it for food.


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## crankybuzzard

johnmeyer said:


> You said that you are building a base for the "product chamber" (I assume you mean the black smoker sitting on top). When you do that, you might want to give some thought to whether you have enough lateral stability for the whole thing. I live in earthquake land (California) and after a few decades of shaking, it becomes second nature to look at things and imagine them tipping over. Even if you don't have earthquakes, you do have wind, and you perhaps have kids or grandchildren who might come along and run into the thing. I'd imagine that the top is heavier than the bottom, something that will accentuate the tendency to tip over.
> 
> Filing cabinets are notorious for falling over when loaded on the top shelf, with the bottom shelves empty. People usually load them starting with the top, because it is easier to access the top without stooping over.
> 
> So, when you build your support for the top part, you might want to construct some feet, or something similar, that go sideways at least a couple of feet.
> 
> BTW, using a metal filing cabinet is really cool. My only other bit of advice on that is to make sure you do a good long smoke initially, before using it on food, just to make sure that the factory paint and residual oil on the drawer runners on the inside of the cabinet gets covered up pretty well. If the cabinet was made prior to the mid 1970s, the paint might contain lead. As long as it gets coated, you'll be fine. We had lead pipes at the home where I grew up but like millions of others, we had no problems because the pipes got coated with calcium and other residue from the hardness in the water, and lead didn't make it into the water. I think the same will be true in this case, as long as you get a coating started before you use it for food.


Good advice on all counts right there!


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## hawkce541

Okay got the base built. The concrete's on little bit of a slope so I to shim it













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__ hawkce541
__ Apr 10, 2017


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## mr t 59874

Questions for the safety gurus. As my wife has an old four-drawer filing cabinet in her office, I asked her to view and read the thread on Hawks brilliant use of his filing cabinet.  Afterwards she surprised me with a couple questions that I could not answer.

Her first question: At what temperature does the residual oil on the drawer runners and paint begin to emit toxic fumes? Knowing that during the summer her office gets warmer than what Hawks cabinet would get when smoking, I was concerned also.

Second question: Is it safe to keep items like doughnuts, cookies, tea, and coffee supplies in one of the drawers?

I did advise her not to place her coffee mug containing 160° coffee on top of the cabinet without using a trivet until her questions are answered.

I suggested removing the contents and putting a good coat of creosote on the interior for her. She responded with some sailor talk and insulting sign language.

Hawk, you have your unit located in a very nice location. 

Have fun smoking.

T


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## dls1

Mr T 59874 said:


> Questions for the safety gurus. As my wife has an old four-drawer filing cabinet in her office, I asked her to view and read the thread on Hawks brilliant use of his filing cabinet.  Afterwards she surprised me with a couple questions that I could not answer.
> 
> Her first question: At what temperature does the residual oil on the drawer runners and paint begin to emit toxic fumes? Knowing that during the summer her office gets warmer than what Hawks cabinet would get when smoking, I was concerned also.
> 
> Second question: Is it safe to keep items like doughnuts, cookies, tea, and coffee supplies in one of the drawers?
> 
> I did advise her not to place her coffee mug containing 160° coffee on top of the cabinet without using a trivet until her questions are answered.
> 
> I suggested removing the contents and putting a good coat of creosote on the interior for her. She responded with some sailor talk and insulting sign language.
> 
> Hawk, you have your unit located in a very nice location.
> 
> Have fun smoking.
> 
> T


T,

I'm definitely not a safety guru, but I think the safest thing you could do would be to go to a Goodwill store or something similar and get your own second hand filing cabinet. Next, instead of applying a good coat of creosote, I would recommend using some cold patch. You should be good to go, and there would still be harmony in the house.


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## johnmeyer

Mr T 59874 said:


> Her first question: At what temperature does the residual oil on the drawer runners and paint begin to emit toxic fumes? Knowing that during the summer her office gets warmer than what Hawks cabinet would get when smoking, I was concerned also.


I already pointed out the same thing in my last post: he needs to get that thing up to a very high temperature to burn off lots of stuff, and needs to do a VERY long smoke to build up a lot of gunk on the interior.

However, the petroleum products are not my main concern. I've inhaled a lot of burned petroleum products (haven't we all ...), and while they're not very good for you, I don't think they are even close to being as poisonous as lead paint. That is my bigger concern. Also, the petroleum is easy to deal with. What I'd to is take the ball-bearing slides out and soak them in paint thinner. I'd then blow them out with compressed air and then set them in the sun over the course of a few days (or put them in your BBQ and bake them). Finally, I'd re-lubricate them with vegetable oil. After doing all this, I'd then do an all-day "burn in" of the cabinet at the highest possible temperature.

I am also even more concerned about it tipping over now that I've seen the final build. It looks _*very *_tippy. My concern is especially high because it is shown directly next to the main electric meter and circuit box for the house. It is not a good location. While there is a nice corner fence to "catch" it when it falls over, the weight of the smoker would probably damage something on the way down and would certainly break the glass on the meter. I've seen a few of those break; it doesn't take much effort to fracture them.

Finally, one reason I went with a popcorn can for my external smoking enclosure is that it is made of food-grade materials. I realize this is tough to come by when building a bigger smoking box, but it should be a factor in making the decision about what to use.


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## hawkce541

Actually it's very stable, ( I've tried to rock it), the smoker on top isn't as heavy as it looks, and the filing cabinet is heavier than IT looks.  As far as the chemicals inside the cabinet.......there's not going to be any heat there........that's why it's a COLD smoker.  I've already run 3 full trays of pellets through it for a minimum of 30 collective hours of smoke.


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## hawkce541

By the way T,

I got a blender for $5 from a guy on "Let go".  It works great for chopping up the pellets into dust.  Thin blue smoke for days.  Thanks for the tip.

Hawk


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## mr t 59874

Hawkce541 said:


> By the way T,
> 
> I got a blender for $5 from a guy on "Let go".  It works great for chopping up the pellets into dust.  Thin blue smoke for days.  Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Hawk


You should get good use out of it. You can now make chopped pellets, a sawdust type material, and the fine powder for those long slow smokes.

T


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## dabigbozman

Mr T 59874 said:


> You should get good use out of it. You can now make chopped pellets, a sawdust type material, and the fine powder for those long slow smokes.
> 
> T


This is the fist I've heard of chopping pellets? I cand find a thread on it either, what's the thought behind chopped them?


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## mr t 59874

Dabigbozman said:


> This is the fist I've heard of chopping pellets? I cand find a thread on it either, what's the thought behind chopped them?


Thank you for asking. Different forms of pellets will have different burn rates and produce different amounts of heat or BTU’s, the same as the cuts of wood. To help you understand using a larger picture, imagine the heat required to burn a half dozen huge logs, the same amount of fireplace logs, sticks for a stick burner, kindling for a cook stove, and twigs to start a campfire. The smaller the fuel the less heat produced along with the amount of smoke, even though the color may be the same from each cut. By using different forms of fuel that produce different amounts of smoke, regardless the smoke generator being used, you can determine what smoke matches the product you are smoking.

Hopefully, this answered your question.

T


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## dabigbozman

Mr T 59874 said:


> Thank you for asking. Different forms of pellets will have different burn rates and produce different amounts of heat or BTU’s, the same as the cuts of wood. To help you understand using a larger picture, imagine the heat required to burn a half dozen huge logs, the same amount of fireplace logs, sticks for a stick burner, kindling for a cook stove, and twigs to start a campfire. The smaller the fuel the less heat produced along with the amount of smoke, even though the color may be the same from each cut. By using different forms of fuel that produce different amounts of smoke, regardless the smoke generator being used, you can determine what smoke matches the product you are smoking.
> 
> Hopefully, this answered your question.
> 
> T


Thanks for the detailed answer professor T [emoji]129299[/emoji]


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## doughboysigep

where can I find a reduced from 3" tubing to a 2" opening (opening on my MES). haven't had any luck finding something.  was going to cut and compressed tubing if need be.


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## mr t 59874

doughboysigep said:


> where can I find a reduced from 3" tubing to a 2" opening (opening on my MES). haven't had any luck finding something.  was going to cut and compressed tubing if need be.


Checkout 3" x 2" Schedule 40 or 80 PVC Reducing Coupling. Operating temp is 140° far above cold smoking temps.

T
[h1]  [/h1]


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## johnmeyer

What MES do you have? The chip loader on mine is a standard 3" opening, not 2".


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## doughboysigep

I think my older unit might have a 3" opening (didn't measure yet), but my newer generation (digital readout integrate on front above door) is 2 inch.


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## doughboysigep

So I finally got my mailbox attachment done for my MES.  Put it together when my 1st batch of cheese was in the smoker.  It was at/around/below 0 and still had to put frozen bottle in to keep it barely under 90.  Second batch with mailbox worked beautifully (never above 40).
Cheese was noticeably different color - orangish w/o mailbox; slightly off white w/ mailbox.  I assume flavor will be the same (?).


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## doughboysigep

1st & 2nd batch


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