# Newbie needs first smoker advice



## clfergus (Jul 24, 2015)

I had posted this in the wrong forum and hadn't gotten any replies so re-posting here...

I have been reading the forum for awhile and have decided to buy a smoker. I am a newbie to smoking. I have been a life long Weber Kettle man and have tried some smokes on it but don't have the time to continue to add coals and babysit the temp.

So I am mow looking at a Masterbuilt 30 inch electric. I just can't decide between the Gen I vs Gen II models    20070910 vs. 20070213

I have read that the gen II doesn't vent well and adds too much smoke flavor in the meat. I have also read though that it is superior in terms of insulation/controls etc.

Any advice on which one to pick. I want the easiest to use model that will make the best tasting BBQ. 

Thanks...appreciate the advice.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 24, 2015)

clfergus said:


> I had posted this in the wrong forum and hadn't gotten any replies so re-posting here...
> 
> I have been reading the forum for awhile and have decided to buy a smoker. I am a newbie to smoking. I have been a life long Weber Kettle man and have tried some smokes on it but don't have the time to continue to add coals and babysit the temp.
> 
> ...


If you're trying to choose between a Gen #1 and a Gen #2-------Stop Immediately!!!

Get the Gen #1---Much Better!!!

And if you want the easiest to use & Best tasting, Get the Gen #1 MES 40, and get an AMNPS & Smoke Happily Ever After!!

Bear

Bear


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## mummel (Jul 24, 2015)

My vote goes for the MES 40 BT.  Great smoker.


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## brickguy221 (Jul 24, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> If you're trying to choose between a Gen #1 and a Gen #2-------Stop Immediately!!!
> 
> Get the Gen #1---Much Better!!!
> 
> ...


Although I love my new Bluetooth and with my not ever having had a Gen 1, I can't argue nor disagree with what Bear said here, especially when I read that others also love their Gen 1's.


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## mummel (Jul 24, 2015)

What does a Gen 1 cost these days?


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## brickguy221 (Jul 24, 2015)

mummel said:


> What does a Gen 1 cost these days?


At Academy ... 30" is $250 ... 40" $300

Those are the cheapest I find at the moment. However, I have seen Academy have them on sale in the past for $280 for a 40"


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## mummel (Jul 24, 2015)

The Gen 2.5 40 BT at Sams is $330.  Seems like a worth upgrade for $30 no?  I think YES!


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## tumbleweed1 (Jul 24, 2015)

I have the Gen I MES 30 (20070910) & love it.

TW


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## dr k (Jul 24, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> ecause they don't have one
> 
> Although I love my new Bluetooth and with my not ever having had a Gen 1, I can't argue nor disagree with what Bear said here, especially when I read that others also love their Gen 1's.


I hope all have no regrets on the MES Gen they own.  We all want nothing but success stories,  I researched the MES on SMF for a year and listened to comments and then bought ( 40" GEN 1) because of DaRiksta's find at such a great price and the polls on SMF.  I have inspected all MES GEN's and the Gen 1 is a completely different animal.  We need a thread on the fire box of the GEN 1 compared to the 2 and BT 2.5  because the others don't have a box/housing.  On the Gen 1, when the air comes in through the three holes in the chip loader the box contains it to the three holes on the exit side, to the middle of the smoker.  If you don't use chips and use the AMNPS, then you get 100% air shooting though the three housing holes to the center, stoking the AMNPS.  My God, make sure the foil covering the bottom drip pan hole is punched out when you foil it.  That's a lot of air coming into the CC!  I continuously tell people to try to keep a flame lit at the drain pan opening (on the outside of the smoker) to verify the draw of air that comes into the  smoker.  When your smoker has been going you can't keep a flame lit.  I look forward with great anticipation for any kind of feedback on this test.  Never once has anyone responded.  With  the GEN 1 chip tray installed all the way in and the loader all the way in (up or down loaded position), whatever, your getting something your not from the Gen 2 and 2.5 BT.  I have nothing but great results from the GEN 1 40" RF controller.  I can't comment on the 2.5 BT range.  Masterbuilt even tries to get you on to their other two Gen's in stock because the they can't keep the GEN 1's in stock.  Get a Gen 1!  

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Jul 24, 2015)

clfergus said:


> I had posted this in the wrong forum and hadn't gotten any replies so re-posting here...
> 
> I have been reading the forum for awhile and have decided to buy a smoker. I am a newbie to smoking. I have been a life long Weber Kettle man and have tried some smokes on it but don't have the time to continue to add coals and babysit the temp.
> 
> ...


If you're looking at the best starter smoker on the market at its price point, go with the Gen 20070910 only if you have a tight budget. That's why I bought mine and it's been a great smoker for the 3 years I've owned it. But it's only 30" or so wide. If you want something larger like a 40" there are MES non-Gen II choices but they'll be pricier than the MES 30 Gen 1.

I use the AMNPS (pellet smoker) and I'm still impressed by the quality of smoked food that comes out of that little box. Call me conceited but I've posted in this forum that I'll put my smoked pork ribs, brisket, and pulled pork up against any of the BBQ restaurants in my area, which isn't saying much for them (Famous Dave's, Dickey's BBQ Pit). But believe me, what comes out of that little black box is real Q once you learn what you're doing which doesn't take long.

And thanks for the kind words @Dr K!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 25, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I hope all have no regrets on the MES Gen they own.  We all want nothing but success stories,  I researched the MES on SMF for a year and listened to comments and then bought ( 40" GEN 1) because of DaRiksta's find at such a great price and the polls on SMF.  I have inspected all MES GEN's and the Gen 1 is a completely different animal.  We need a thread on the fire box of the GEN 1 compared to the 2 and BT 2.5  because the others don't have a box/housing.  On the Gen 1, when the air comes in through the three holes in the chip loader the box contains it to the three holes on the exit side, to the middle of the smoker.  If you don't use chips and use the AMNPS, then you get 100% air shooting though the three housing holes to the center, stoking the AMNPS.  My God, make sure the foil covering the bottom drip pan hole is punched out when you foil it.  That's a lot of air coming into the CC!  I continuously tell people to try to keep a flame lit at the drain pan opening (on the outside of the smoker) to verify the draw of air that comes into the  smoker.  When your smoker has been going you can't keep a flame lit. * I look forward with great anticipation for any kind of feedback on this test.  Never once has anyone responded.*   With  the GEN 1 chip tray installed all the way in and the loader all the way in (up or down loaded position), whatever, your getting something your not from the Gen 2 and 2.5 BT.  I have nothing but great results from the GEN 1 40" RF controller.  I can't comment on the 2.5 BT range.  Masterbuilt even tries to get you on to their other two Gen's in stock because the they can't keep the GEN 1's in stock.  Get a Gen 1!
> 
> -Kurt


Great Advice Dr K !!!

When I think about it, I wonder if for some people that drain is a problem??

I don't get much fat or grease going down that drain, but I could see that being a cause for problems with the AMNPS.

If Fats and grease go down that drain while the smoker is hot. Then the Fat cools when the Smoker cools, causing the drain to be blocked, and not allowing air flow through that drain.

This could cause the burning of the AMNPS to be hard to keep going, until the smoker heats up enough to get the drain working again. Then the AMNPS burns much better.

Like I said, this is just a guess, because I don't get enough fats & grease down my drain to cause this, but I could see it happening to some.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2015)

With my MES 30  Gen 1 I've never had a problem with the drip pan hole plugging up. The water pan has always caught a good part of dripping grease. I still use it for that since I keep it empty and foiled over. I also foil over the grease pan on the bottom of the smoker and so the grease tends to pool down there. I foil below that rear hole in the grease pan so that if enough grease accumulates to actually travel to that hole it won't be blocked. The grease dripping through that hole drips through a hole in the floor of the smoker right below it. The grease then empties into the drip tray on the outside rear of the smoker. For the three years I've been using my MES 30 the grease actually dripping into the tray has been negligible. I never thought the holes were large enough to make them a decent air source and I still don't think they really are because of their small size. I keep them unblocked because they're part of the design of the smoker.


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## dr k (Jul 25, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Great Advice Dr K !!!
> 
> When I think about it, I wonder if for some people that drain is a problem??
> 
> ...


I guess you have to load up the smoker to get a pool of fat to run to the drip pan drain and into the external grease trap.  I'm not even close to that just drips here and there.  The GEN 2 and 2.5 BT have holes in the bottom with no elbow for virtually no clogging.

-Kurt


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## dr k (Jul 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> With my MES 30  Gen 1 I've never had a problem with the drip pan hole plugging up. The water pan has always caught a good part of dripping grease. I still use it for that since I keep it empty and foiled over. I also foil over the grease pan on the bottom of the smoker and so the grease tends to pool down there. I foil below that rear hole in the grease pan so that if enough grease accumulates to actually travel to that hole it won't be blocked. The grease dripping through that hole drips through a hole in the floor of the smoker right below it. The grease then empties into the drip tray on the outside rear of the smoker. For the three years I've been using my MES 30 the grease actually dripping into the tray has been negligible. I never thought the holes were large enough to make them a decent air source and I still don't think they really are because of their small size. I keep them unblocked because they're part of the design of the smoker.


 
The Gen 1 chip loader has three vent holes and the Gen 1 drain hole on the back of the smoker maybe bigger than the size of two of the loader holes.  When your  MES Gen 1 is chugging along at 225*F or higher, hold a lighter flame to the outside rear drain and tell me what happens.  There's a lot of play in the bottom drip pan and the pan can cover the drain hole if both holes aren't matched up.  I always move my smoker so I make sure the holes in the pan and drain are matched up before each smoke with the AMNTS.

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2015)

Dr K said:


> The Gen 1 chip loader has three vent holes and the Gen 1 drain hole on the back of the smoker maybe bigger than the size of two of the loader holes.  When your  MES Gen 1 is chugging along at 225*F or higher, hold a lighter flame to the outside rear drain and tell me what happens.  There's a lot of play in the bottom drip pan and the pan can cover the drain hole if both holes aren't matched up.  I always move my smoker so I make sure the holes in the pan and drain are matched up before each smoke with the AMNTS.
> 
> -Kurt


I might be planning a smoke next week so I'll try that lighter flame test and post a full report. This is an instance where I'd enjoy being wrong since it would yet another reason to love my MES 30. I always make sure the two holes are aligned. My new default smoking temp forever more will be 225° ever since I saw Diners, Drive-ins & Dives episode where the Neely family said that's the temp they use in their BBQ restaurants.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 25, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I guess you have to load up the smoker to get a pool of fat to run to the drip pan drain and into the external grease trap.  I'm not even close to that just drips here and there.  The GEN 2 and 2.5 BT have holes in the bottom with no elbow for virtually no clogging.
> 
> -Kurt


Yup---That's one of the things I like about the Gen #2 and #2.5.

I rarely smoke more than a rack or two of anything, and I started using coiling racks in foil pans with Butts, Prime Ribs, Chuckies, etc to avoid a lot of fat drippings.

Bear


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## dr k (Jul 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I might be planning a smoke next week so I'll try that lighter flame test and post a full report. This is an instance where I'd enjoy being wrong since it would yet another reason to love my MES 30. I always make sure the two holes are aligned. My new default smoking temp forever more will be 225° ever since I saw Diners, Drive-ins & Dives episode where the Neely family said that's the temp they use in their BBQ restaurants.


Sounds Good!  I have tried a Kingsford briquette in the chip tray for a smoke ring attempt and had a slight pink color inside the bark but no definite ring.  I'll be doing a 5-6lb. brisket point tomorrow or the next day with 2 briquettes in the chip tray (it holds four briquettes.)  Keep in mind I have the replacement MES Gen 1 40" in my spare bedroom that has been seasoned (tested.)  I am using the original Gen 1 delivered by covered wagon.  I soldered the electrical supply cord back on for experimental purposes.  It's alive!  The Dr. is in! LOL

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Jul 25, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Sounds Good!  I have tried a Kingsford briquette in the chip tray for a smoke ring attempt and had a slight pink color inside the bark but no definite ring.  I'll be doing a 5-6lb. brisket point tomorrow or the next day with 2 briquettes in the chip tray (it holds four briquettes.)  Keep in mind I have the replacement MES Gen 1 40" in my spare bedroom that has been seasoned (tested.)  I am using the original Gen 1 delivered by covered wagon.  I soldered the electrical supply cord back on for experimental purposes.  It's alive!  The Dr. is in! LOL
> 
> -Kurt


By coincidence I've a 6 lb. beef brisket but after you trim the hard fat it might be down a pound. With my smaller MES 30 to concentrate the smoke and heat I'm going to go with five charcoal briquettes. It might not just generate a smoke ring but the entire meat surface might be a smoke arena or something.


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## dr k (Jul 26, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> By coincidence I've a 6 lb. beef brisket but after you trim the hard fat it might be down a pound. With my smaller MES 30 to concentrate the smoke and heat I'm going to go with five charcoal briquettes. It might not just generate a smoke ring but the entire meat surface might be a smoke arena or something.


Are you going to do 2-3 briquettes at a time or all 5 at once? 

-Kurt


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## brickguy221 (Jul 26, 2015)

My Son in CA just got his first Smoker 3 weeks ago, a 40" BT Gen 2.5 like mine. He got his at Sams Club like I did. He tried some briquettes today on some ribs and got a smoke ring and it looked really good. He Emailed me a picture and I tried to post it here, but it doesn't work as I guess I don't know how to do that. Wish I could have as it was a really nice smoke ring for a smoker.

Here is what he said he said he did.....

 I put my ribs on a cold smoker, after all the smoking takes place at a lower temperature was my thought so I figured I would just cold smoke up to temp.  In addition, the smoke ring is not created by smoke but by the product of combustion and a chemical reaction from those products of combustion. With an electric smoker you don't get much cumbustion so very little chance of a smoke ring. So yesterday I played around a little with leaving the wood chip loader out and putting more wood in than usual to create more products of combustion and this method created a small smoke ring about 3/16 of an inch.  I only did it for about ten or fifteen minutes but today I wanted to pursue it more.  Since I like charcoal too then I added a half a piece twice yesterday.  That didn't seem to hurt anything so I started smoker cold with ribs on today with two charcoals and wood as well, left the loader out to get lots of combustion gasses. Started smoking way before 220 so I was actually cold smoking as temp rose.  Temp over shot by 8 degree and then undershot by 7,  I then added two more charcoal and it over shot by 7 and undershot by 6.  Anyway, I don't know if that is better than normal but I figured I would share with you because I think that maybe the charcoal helps keep the temp from dropping so fast while the heater element warms up.  

Again, I wish you could see his smoke ring as it looks almost as if it came off a charcoal grill.


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## clfergus (Jul 27, 2015)

Well I purchased a model 20070910 today online which I believe is the Gen I. I am super excited. I wasn't going to buy one now but with football season coming up I am going to start a smoking tradition of something for each colts game.

I was on the fence and last night I grilled a bunch of chicken legs on the weber with some apple wood chunks. I was listening to my wife and in-laws just loving cheap old chicken legs that were cooked for an hour and decided man this stuff just tastes too good. I have to make some quality ribs and pulled pork.

Thanks for all the advice. I am going to try a few smokes with chips before I invest in the pellet tray.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 27, 2015)

clfergus said:


> Well I purchased a model 20070910 today online which I believe is the Gen I. I am super excited. I wasn't going to buy one now but with football season coming up I am going to start a smoking tradition of something for each colts game.
> 
> I was on the fence and last night I grilled a bunch of chicken legs on the weber with some apple wood chunks. I was listening to my wife and in-laws just loving cheap old chicken legs that were cooked for an hour and decided man this stuff just tastes too good. I have to make some quality ribs and pulled pork.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. I am going to try a few smokes with chips before I invest in the pellet tray.


Congrats on your New MES !!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Below is something that might help you get started:

Just click on *"Bear's Step by Steps"*.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Are you going to do 2-3 briquettes at a time or all 5 at once?
> 
> -Kurt


Once again it is proven that some types of humor don't translate well in writing. I won't be using any briquettes at all.


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## mummel (Jul 27, 2015)

We need pics!


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> My Son in CA just got his first Smoker 3 weeks ago, a 40" BT Gen 2.5 like mine. He got his at Sams Club like I did. He tried some briquettes today on some ribs and got a smoke ring and it looked really good. He Emailed me a picture and I tried to post it here, but it doesn't work as I guess I don't know how to do that. Wish I could have as it was a really nice smoke ring for a smoker.
> 
> Here is what he said he said he did.....
> 
> ...


You son is both knowledgeable and a thinker. I'm surprised he got a smoke ring using just wood chips. Did he say if he repeated the feat using that half charcoal briquette? I had always read you needed temps of 275° and above to get a smoke ring but I've seen and read where bbq pitmasters got them at lower temps between 225° and 235° but only when cooking in stick burners where you get that high combustion that your son was talking about.

As for placing the meat in a cold smoker, I don't place anything I'm about to cook in a cold oven or a cold skillet. What's the point? If you've got a set cooking time you're just going to have to track how long it takes the oven or smoker to warm up and add that to your expected finish time. That's why recipes call for preheating the cooking appliance before adding the food to be cooked. I don't see any benefit to cold smoking while the smoker heats up.

Your son wrote he left the wood chip loader out. Is he saying he removed it completely, leaving a large open hole on the side of the smoker for more air intake?


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## brickguy221 (Jul 27, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> You son is both knowledgeable and a thinker. I'm surprised he got a smoke ring using just wood chips. Did he say if he repeated the feat using that half charcoal briquette? I had always read you needed temps of 275° and above to get a smoke ring but I've seen and read where bbq pitmasters got them at lower temps between 225° and 235° but only when cooking in stick burners where you get that high combustion that your son was talking about.
> 
> As for placing the meat in a cold smoker, I don't place anything I'm about to cook in a cold oven or a cold skillet. What's the point? If you've got a set cooking time you're just going to have to track how long it takes the oven or smoker to warm up and add that to your expected finish time. That's why recipes call for preheating the cooking appliance before adding the food to be cooked. I don't see any benefit to cold smoking while the smoker heats up.
> 
> Your son wrote he left the wood chip loader out. Is he saying he removed it completely, leaving a large open hole on the side of the smoker for more air intake?


My Son said  ...  I have been told by others that smoke, that you get no smoke penetration after the meat is sealed. (BTW, I have heard that also)  I didn't really see a down side to putting it in cold. if anything you insure the opportunity to inject more smoke into it because it isn't sealed as fast.

He also said  ...  I initially did it for flavor but saw no gain from it.  I think it ended up helping prevent the wild temp swing as I had none.  The open hole for the chip loader created a draft that probably prevented the smoker from over shooting more than 7 - 8 degrees while the heat coming off the charcoal probably slowed down the drop in temp thus preventing drops below target of more then 6 - 7 degrees.  The heat from the charcoal slowed down the drop in temp and gave the heating element time to heat up before the temperature dropped too far.

Rick, I will check on your question about the "Chip Loader out" and report back in this tread.


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## clfergus (Jul 27, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Once again it is proven that some types of humor don't translate well in writing. I won't be using any briquettes at all.





Bearcarver said:


> Congrats on your New MES !!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Bear!

So here are a few questions I have for when my smoker arrives:

1. Checking temp..... do you open the door and use a probe at certain time intervals or do you run a probe through the vent holes?

2. What is a good rule of thumb for how often to add wood chips? Is there a smoking duration rule like 8 hours of smoking add smoke every hour for first 3?


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## mummel (Jul 27, 2015)

Run a probe through the vent like the Maverick 733 or equivalent.  I dont know about wood chips as I have a A-MAZE-N pellet tray 5X8 (or AMPS for short).  You light it once and forget about it.  Gives you 10-12 hours of smoke time.  Great gizmo.


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## Bearcarver (Jul 27, 2015)

clfergus said:


> Thanks Bear!
> 
> So here are a few questions I have for when my smoker arrives:
> 
> ...


1.   I use my Maverick ET-732 Digital wireless to monitor both the Smoker temp, and the internal temp of most things other than Ribs. My probe wires go through my top vent. If there are multiple items in the smoker, like a bunch of Country Style Ribs, or Bear Logs, Sticks or Loaves, etc, I will stick them each with my Thermapen, at the end, to make sure it's not just the one with the probe in it that is done.

2.  I have been using my AMNPS exclusively for 5 years, but when I used to use the MES chip burner, I used to put 3 or 4 chips in at a time until they stopped smoking, which was between 20 & 30 minutes. With the AMNPS I have smoke going as long as the meat is in the smoker, unless it is wrapped in foil. But that's just me---I love a lot of light smoke, and the meat will take smoke no matter what the IT is.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> My Son said  ...  I have been told by others that smoke, that you get no smoke penetration after the meat is sealed. (BTW, I have heard that also)  I didn't really see a down side to putting it in cold. if anything you insure the opportunity to inject more smoke into it because it isn't sealed as fast.
> 
> He also said  ...  I initially did it for flavor but saw no gain from it.  I think it ended up helping prevent the wild temp swing as I had none.  The open hole for the chip loader created a draft that probably prevented the smoker from over shooting more than 7 - 8 degrees while the heat coming off the charcoal probably slowed down the drop in temp thus preventing drops below target of more then 6 - 7 degrees.  The heat from the charcoal slowed down the drop in temp and gave the heating element time to heat up before the temperature dropped too far.
> 
> Rick, I will check on your question about the "Chip Loader out" and report back in this tread.


Your son is saying that once the pellicle has formed on the outside of the meat no further smoke will penetrate it. I was told that in a BBQ class, brought that up here, and several experienced and knowledgeable members debunked it. If this were the case, why wouldn't pro pitmasters foil their meats after the IT hit 160° which is, according to what I was told, where the pellicle is fully formed? So, I disagree with what your son was told there.

The other things he said are very interesting. What he observed is what he observed so there's no need to question it. Don't know if it's a good idea to removed the chip loader, if that's what your son did, because I think just about every interior component has a purpose for being placed where it is regarding heat dispersment and airflow. Maybe not so much with the Gen 2 smokers but we're not talking about those. I leave the wood chip loader in place because I see no reason not to. My smoker is working fine, as I've repeatedly posted to the growing somnolence of my readers.

What I think is great is that you've passed the love of BBQ (and I would imagine grilling) onto your son. My 25 yr old daughter has told me for years that she'd like me to teach her but she can't have any outdoor grill where she lives now. My 21 yr old son has no interest in either one other than ravenously eating what I put on the table.


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2015)

clfergus said:


> Thanks Bear!
> 
> So here are a few questions I have for when my smoker arrives:
> 
> ...


1. I own the Maverick ET-733 so I agree with running the probes through the vent hole on your smoker. You can monitor the temps on the receiver from just about anywhere inside your house, even from the front yard if you're smoking in the backyard. If necessary, I go out to the smoker, adjust the temp, and continue to monitor smoker and meat temps on the receiver.

2. I've been using wood pellets in the AMNPS for about 3 years and will never go back to wood chips. In the early days when I was using them, I had a tendency to put in too many because you can never have too much smoke, right? My wife and kids later told me how wrong I was since my early efforts were overly smoky, harsh and bitter tasting. I noticed that smoke would stop rising out of the top vent of my MES 30 after about 30 minutes so every half hour I was loading more wood chips into the smoker. Ever since I started using wood pellets I get steady, even smoke for 11 hours or so. I can still get too much smoke if I leave the AMNPS in over, let's say, 6-8 hours so my new strategy will be to determine when what I'm smoking has had enough. Only experience from repeated smokes will teach me that. But I don't smoke the large cuts of meat other members are smoking. The meats I smoke top out at about 6 lbs. so they don't to be smoked over 11 hours or so anyway. Of that 11 hours I'd say about up to 6 hours of smoke would suffice. Again, this is for "smaller" beef briskets and pork shoulders/butts and chuck and other such roasts, in my opinion.


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## clfergus (Jul 27, 2015)

Oh crap.... now I need to get me a ET-732 and an AMNPS.

Cha Ching... I need to sell some golf clubs to fund my new hobby.


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## dr k (Jul 28, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> My Son in CA just got his first Smoker 3 weeks ago, a 40" BT Gen 2.5 like mine. He got his at Sams Club like I did. He tried some briquettes today on some ribs and got a smoke ring and it looked really good. He Emailed me a picture and I tried to post it here, but it doesn't work as I guess I don't know how to do that. Wish I could have as it was a really nice smoke ring for a smoker.
> 
> Here is what he said he said he did.....
> 
> ...


I tried 2 briquettes in the chip tray when I put in the brisket point.. One hour later I put in two more through the loader.  An hour later another two briquettes through the loader for a total of six with no smoke ring formation  The heating cycles appeared to be quicker and consistent after Bear's controller tips with coal in the chip loader.  I'll have to try three briquettes at a time.

-Kurt


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## brickguy221 (Jul 28, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I tried 2 briquettes in the chip tray when I put in the brisket point.. One hour later I put in two more through the loader.  An hour later another two briquettes through the loader for a total of six with no smoke ring formation  The heating cycles appeared to be quicker and consistent after Bear's controller tips with coal in the chip loader.  I'll have to try three briquettes at a time.
> 
> -Kurt


Kurt, he pulled the chip loader all the way out and leaving the hole wwide open for 1 1/2 hrs when he was using the charcoal briquettes ... he said it created more air-oxygen and combustion that way. He then put it back in.


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## daricksta (Jul 28, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I tried 2 briquettes in the chip tray when I put in the brisket point.. One hour later I put in two more through the loader.  An hour later another two briquettes through the loader for a total of six with no smoke ring formation  The heating cycles appeared to be quicker and consistent after Bear's controller tips with coal in the chip loader.  I'll have to try three briquettes at a time.
> 
> -Kurt


Surprised you got nothing with all those briquettes. One or two guys posted they've gotten smoke rings with just one briquette. It's worth experimenting with. But what temp were you smoking at? Also, how much of the hard fat and soft fat did you trim off? NO and CO gases don't penetrate fat very well to get to the layer of myoglobin.

However, according to Meathead Goldwyn on amazingribs.com a pellet smoker at 225° puts out more NO than charcoal briquettes or lump charcoal. I've watched TV shows where the BBQ pitmasters got a rocking smoke ring at 225°. But as for me, I'd rather be heading out to my smoker to futz with a temp adjustment or to wrap or unwrap the meat during a smoke instead of going out to load charcoal briquettes to get a ring. But I get the feeling, Kurt, that obtaining a smoke ring in your MES is your Holy Grail. _Bonne chance et bon appétit!_


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## brickguy221 (Jul 28, 2015)

Since the smoke ring doesn't really make the taste any better or worse, I don't care if I get a smoke ring or not in my smoker. 

As for Kurt not getting a smoke ring, he might not be getting enough air-oxygen into his smoker. My son feels that is a big key in obtaining a smoke ring, thus the reason he leaves the chip loader completely out of the smoker for approx 1 1/2 hrs. I will have to wait and see how he does on future smokes.


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## dr k (Jul 29, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Surprised you got nothing with all those briquettes. One or two guys posted they've gotten smoke rings with just one briquette. It's worth experimenting with. But what temp were you smoking at? Also, how much of the hard fat and soft fat did you trim off? NO and CO gases don't penetrate fat very well to get to the layer of myoglobin.
> 
> However, according to Meathead Goldwyn on amazingribs.com a pellet smoker at 225° puts out more NO than charcoal briquettes or lump charcoal. I've watched TV shows where the BBQ pitmasters got a rocking smoke ring at 225°. But as for me, I'd rather be heading out to my smoker to futz with a temp adjustment or to wrap or unwrap the meat during a smoke instead of going out to load charcoal briquettes to get a ring. But I get the feeling, Kurt, that obtaining a smoke ring in your MES is your Holy Grail. _Bonne chance et bon appétit!_


The smoker cycled +/- 8*F to average 225*F.  It was a brisket point with barely any fat to trim on the outside because the point has the heavy layer of fat on the inside.  I Loaded charcoal briquettes through the chip loader (not using the chip loader) by just looking through the opening and placing two in the tray before putting the loader back in, in the dump position.  The last thing you want to do with an MES is open the door until it's time to Foil.  This is a high maintenance machine after Bear's controller anticipation method,  which is great.  All my other smokers and grills are charcoal and the cast iron grates can be heat treated and the char scrubbed off without bringing it into the house ( I don't have a dishwasher.)  Doing the window and grates is triple the maintenance compared to my other three (and I have oven cleaner for the grates, magic erasers, vinegar etc.)  I have a squeegee and will try oven cleaner on the window from the bottom up to catch the run off.  The window is washed with soap and water after to remove any cleaning residue.  I'll find a routine.

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Jul 30, 2015)

Dr K said:


> The smoker cycled +/- 8*F to average 225*F.  It was a brisket point with barely any fat to trim on the outside because the point has the heavy layer of fat on the inside.  I Loaded charcoal briquettes through the chip loader (not using the chip loader) by just looking through the opening and placing two in the tray before putting the loader back in, in the dump position.  The last thing you want to do with an MES is open the door until it's time to Foil.  This is a high maintenance machine after Bear's controller anticipation method,  which is great.  All my other smokers and grills are charcoal and the cast iron grates can be heat treated and the char scrubbed off without bringing it into the house ( I don't have a dishwasher.)  Doing the window and grates is triple the maintenance compared to my other three (and I have oven cleaner for the grates, magic erasers, vinegar etc.)  I have a squeegee and will try oven cleaner on the window from the bottom up to catch the run off.  The window is washed with soap and water after to remove any cleaning residue.  I'll find a routine.
> 
> -Kurt


I'm glad I don't have a window on my smoker. It's bad enough to have to clean our kitchen oven window which then gets mucked up fairly quickly afterwards. I feel like Sisyphus rolling a rock uphill. 

I wonder if that inner heavy layer of fat would also prevent a smoke ring? I always trim off all the hard fat I can while leaving the soft fat alone. I looked at Bear's method but when I look at any involved procedure my eyes glaze over if I don't see it being applicable to me. I've got my own system which works just fine for my MES since I'm no longer dealing with the wide temp swings. I'm smoking a brisket this Sunday and I'm confident it'll go as smoothly as all of my smokes have gone this year.


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## dr k (Jul 30, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I'm glad I don't have a window on my smoker. It's bad enough to have to clean our kitchen oven window which then gets mucked up fairly quickly afterwards. I feel like Sisyphus rolling a rock uphill.
> 
> I wonder if that inner heavy layer of fat would also prevent a smoke ring? I always trim off all the hard fat I can while leaving the soft fat alone. I looked at Bear's method but when I look at any involved procedure my eyes glaze over if I don't see it being applicable to me. I've got my own system which works just fine for my MES since I'm no longer dealing with the wide temp swings. I'm smoking a brisket this Sunday and I'm confident it'll go as smoothly as all of my smokes have gone this year.


That's why I need to start a thread (with a poll) on people with MES's that don't clean their window.  I got my 40" Gen 1 SS with window and RF remote from your Amazon find @ $273 delivered.  I've seen Academy advertise $250 out the door but nothing like that since June.  Can you get one without a window for $273 now?  It doesn't matter.  You told SMF about your find and abbyleo and I bought it.  Lol   I would have bought one down the road without a window but I couldn't pass up the price and now have two 40" Gen 1 SS with window and RF remote for a total of $273. 

Like the link you sent me on smoke ring formation, all exposed meat has Myoglobin and NO and CO gas will lock that pink color till the meat hits 170*F, deactivating Myglobin's oxygen transfer ability and also cooking it .  Keep in mind that this Brisket was frozen in a food saver bag for almost three years with no freezer burn, but may have deteriorated the Myoglobin compared to fresh meat.  I'll find out if it needs to be fresh meat for ring formation.  I taste with my eyes first!  That's why I like a smoke ring. Lol 

Also, the briquettes in the chip tray has an effect on temp stability, making sorter quicker cycles.  Filling a void with something may improve cycling and using Bear's method.  Maybe putting play sand in the chip tray instead of leaving it empty when using the AMNPS is a thought.

-Kurt


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## Bearcarver (Jul 30, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Also, the briquettes in the chip tray has an effect on temp stability, making sorter quicker cycles.  Filling a void with something may improve cycling and using Bear's method.  Maybe putting play sand in the chip tray instead of leaving it empty when using the AMNPS is a thought.
> 
> -Kurt


Hi Kurt,

I should mention, after we repaired my Gn #1 when the Flag connector had burned out, I figured since I wanted to run it a few hours anyway to make sure it's ready to smoke meat again, I would use my method too.

So knowing that mine usually over-shoots by 15° to 25° when running from Ambient temp to 250°, I decided to try to get to a stable 260° as fast as I could.

So I set the Control to 245° & started it up.

When it hit 245° (after 20 minutes), the heating element shut off, but the heat kept rising, because all of the things in the bottom of the smoker were much hotter than the air in the smoker was.

Once it got to 263°, and then fell to 262°, I knew it had peaked at 263° (18° over-shoot).

So I immediately changed my setting to 260°.

That was it-----No more big swings, just from that one small adjustment.

From that point forward, for the next 3 hours, my MES temp went as low as 254°, and as high as 268°. That's between -6° and +8°. I'm quite happy with that.

And it didn't take hours & a lot of babysitting. It was 1 adjustment at the 20--25 minute mark, and steady as she goes for the next 3 hours.

The big thing was after the 18° over-shoot, I moved it up 15°, which kept it from having a big downward over-shoot, which would cause another big upward over-shoot, etc, etc, etc.

One simple move nipped it in the Bud.

Bear


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## dr k (Jul 30, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Hi Kurt,
> 
> I should mention, after we repaired my Gn #1 when the Flag connector had burned out, I figured since I wanted to run it a few hours anyway to make sure it's ready to smoke meat again, I would use my method too.
> 
> ...


Right.  I smoke at 230*F.  When the Mav hits 220*F and the Mes shows 240*F  I set the MES one degree lower (239*F)  to shut off the heating element and coast 10-15*F.  When the Mav says 230*F, the temp I want to smoke at I reset the MES to the temp it's showing (about 230*F as well.)  Then on subsequent cooks I know to set the MES @ 220*F to keep from way over shooting, besides it's only pre heating (the door is going to be opened and the two step process starts over.)  Two adjustments and your where you want to be and that's every time you open the damn door.  Which means, get it right the first time so you only open the door to foil or babysit it. 

What I was saying about having a briquette or two in the chip tray, that nips the downward over run by a few degrees.  Probably because retained heat in the chip tray is deflected away from the sensor with my deflector.  The heat is still in the smoker but away from the sensor, allowing a quicker recovery.  Hell I don't know.  Heat is heat and the lack of it is cold.  The MES shuts off  when heat goes up and trips the sensor.  The heat turns on when the sensor calls for it but it may be hotter on the far side with the deflector with briquettes.  I don't really care about the effects on the MES with briquettes.  It was a side effect of trying to get a smoke ring.  I taste with my eyes first and like a smoke ring just like most like a seared steak.  I'm just mentioning I experienced a favorable smoking experience when I used the briquettes even though I failed at getting at smoke ring.   Brickguy's son had a similar effect I believe. 

-Kurt


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## Bearcarver (Jul 31, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Right.  I smoke at 230*F.  When the Mav hits 220*F and the Mes shows 240*F  I set the MES one degree lower (239*F)  to shut off the heating element and coast 10-15*F.  When the Mav says 230*F, the temp I want to smoke at I reset the MES to the temp it's showing (about 230*F as well.)  Then on subsequent cooks I know to set the MES @ 220*F to keep from way over shooting, besides it's only pre heating (the door is going to be opened and the two step process starts over.)  Two adjustments and your where you want to be and that's every time you open the damn door.  Which means, get it right the first time so you only open the door to foil or babysit it.
> 
> What I was saying about having a briquette or two in the chip tray, that nips the downward over run by a few degrees.  Probably because retained heat in the chip tray is deflected away from the sensor with my deflector.  The heat is still in the smoker but away from the sensor, allowing a quicker recovery.  Hell I don't know.  Heat is heat and the lack of it is cold.  The MES shuts off  when heat goes up and trips the sensor.  The heat turns on when the sensor calls for it but it may be hotter on the far side with the deflector with briquettes.  I don't really care about the effects on the MES with briquettes.  It was a side effect of trying to get a smoke ring.  I taste with my eyes first and like a smoke ring just like most like a seared steak.  I'm just mentioning I experienced a favorable smoking experience when I used the briquettes even though I failed at getting at smoke ring.   Brickguy's son had a similar effect I believe.
> 
> -Kurt


Yup---You got the method down. It's not as hard as some seem to think, and doesn't take hours of playing around. If it did, I would have never posted my method, because I would have considered it as a failure.

I never tried putting charcoal in my chip burner for a smoke ring. Mainly because I don't need a smoke ring, and also because the owner's manual that came with my MES says not to burn charcoal in the MES. I can't see what it would hurt, but that's what it says. If a smoke ring was important to me, I would probably ignore the warning & try it, but it isn't important to me.

Bear


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## daricksta (Jul 31, 2015)

Dr K said:


> That's why I need to start a thread (with a poll) on people with MES's that don't clean their window.  I got my 40" Gen 1 SS with window and RF remote from your Amazon find @ $273 delivered.  I've seen Academy advertise $250 out the door but nothing like that since June.  Can you get one without a window for $273 now?  It doesn't matter.  You told SMF about your find and abbyleo and I bought it.  Lol   I would have bought one down the road without a window but I couldn't pass up the price and now have two 40" Gen 1 SS with window and RF remote for a total of $273.
> 
> Like the link you sent me on smoke ring formation, all exposed meat has Myoglobin and NO and CO gas will lock that pink color till the meat hits 170*F, deactivating Myglobin's oxygen transfer ability and also cooking it .  Keep in mind that this Brisket was frozen in a food saver bag for almost three years with no freezer burn, but may have deteriorated the Myoglobin compared to fresh meat.  I'll find out if it needs to be fresh meat for ring formation.  I taste with my eyes first!  That's why I like a smoke ring. Lol
> 
> ...


Kurt, it's always a pleasure to read your posts. You give me so much material to work with! Academy is presently selling the 30" version of your smoker for $250. Are you sure you saw the 40" on sale for that same amount? If so, take a screen print and forward it to me. After I and my legal department verify the validity of the sale price and the smoker from last June you will be issued a non-negotiable, non-cash refund for $23. We'll also need the model and serial numbers for the that advertised smoker plus proof of its U.S. citizenship. All offers void where prohibited. Limited quantities available for a limited time. Be nice to your mother and call her once in a while.

I've never read anything that says myoblobin deteriorates over time, but that's only because I've read very little about myoglobin so anything's possible. However, I thought the purpose of the Foodsaver vacuum bags was to keep food sealed inside relatively stable over time. But it might be worth researching.

Yes, we taste with our eyes first but what if our eyes find smoke rings unpalatable? Why take a risk on food rejection by ocular organs? That's why I eschew smoke rings. I won't be subjected to culinary tyranny by oppressive orbs! Do you know how much beef briskets are going for now???? I just can't take that chance. I've trained myself to first taste with my taste buds. You know where you stand with a trained tongue.

I posted a few times about my misadventure with play sand in the water pan but I'll give the short version. I tried it with the pan foiled over. My error was that I felt the foil would keep the sand inside the water pan when I lifted my MES off the table I place it on for cooking and down onto the hand truck I store it on in the garage. So, after wheeling the MES into the garage and wheeling it back out the next time I used it, I opened the door and found damp sand piled up along the entire rear wall of the smoker. 30 minutes later almost all the sand has been wiped clean and a directive had been self-issued to never fill the water pan with play sand again. That's why I keep it empty. But when the water pan had been filled with sand I saw no difference in temp stability and retention.

And it's just a personal bias on my part. I own a Weber kettle charcoal grill because I prefer to grill over charcoal briquettes. I own an electric smoker because I prefer not to futz around with a charcoal smoker or charcoal in an electric smoker. Charcoal and my MES are twains on separate twain twacks that will never meet.


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## dr k (Jul 31, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Yup---You got the method down. It's not as hard as some seem to think, and doesn't take hours of playing around. If it did, I would have never posted my method, because I would have considered it as a failure.
> 
> I never tried putting charcoal in my chip burner for a smoke ring. Mainly because I don't need a smoke ring, and also because the owner's manual that came with my MES says not to burn charcoal in the MES. I can't see what it would hurt, but that's what it says. If a smoke ring was important to me, I would probably ignore the warning & try it, but it isn't important to me.
> 
> Bear


I try to think outside the box.  I have not heard of anyone with our 40" Gen 1's that have tried your deflection plate.  I made mine before I realized you had one because the heating element is in the right rear, as well as the Mes temp sensor on the right back wall, and the top vent on top of the right rear corner.  The path of least resistance is straight up past the temp sensor out the top.  That's why some people have a maxed 275*F Mes temp and can't get their Mav's over 240*F on the top two racks, that most of us use as our got to racks.  The deflector makes a clockwise convection for even heating.  I put probe on the second rack at the right rear corner under the top vent, and one at the opposite end of the rack at the latch side.  With the deflector between the heating element and the Mes temp sensor I got readings within 5*F on the rack probes, Mes sensor and the Mes meat probe in the hanger on the left wall.

-Kurt


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## Bearcarver (Jul 31, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I try to think outside the box.  I have not heard of anyone with our 40" Gen 1's that have tried your deflection plate.  I made mine before I realized you had one because the heating element is in the right rear, as well as the Mes temp sensor on the right back wall, and the top vent on top of the right rear corner.  The path of least resistance is straight up past the temp sensor out the top.  That's why some people have a maxed 275*F Mes temp and can't get their Mav's over 240*F on the top two racks, that most of us use as our got to racks.  The deflector makes a clockwise convection for even heating.  I put probe on the second rack at the right rear corner under the top vent, and one at the opposite end of the rack at the latch side.  With the deflector between the heating element and the Mes temp sensor I got readings within 5*F on the rack probes, Mes sensor and the Mes meat probe in the hanger on the left wall.
> 
> -Kurt


Yup,

I put a Maverick Smoker sensor on each side through my #2 Rack, and use my deflector to balance the heat between them.

I always ignore the MES meat probe because I leave it in it's metal sheath, and it's kinda hard to boil test it like you can do with the Maverick probes. I would not trust it.

Bear


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## dr k (Jul 31, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Yup,
> 
> I put a Maverick Smoker sensor on each side through my #2 Rack, and use my deflector to balance the heat between them.
> 
> ...


Right.  I don't count on the MES Sensors.  Ironically they are consistent with the calibrated therms when using a deflector between the heating element and MES CC sensor.  It's nice to see close numbers when using the RF remote, since it gives the MES meat therm temp first, then the set temp, then the actual temp. 

-Kurt


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