# Any Consensus Over Opitmum Brisket Internal Temp?



## daricksta

I've been smoking both beef briskets and pork shoulders to an IT of 200°. But I've been reading that the pros recommend 190-195°, the most popular being 195. I thought that at this temp not all the soft fat renders down and the meat is still a little tough. What are the thoughts here about the best IT for a beef brisket?


----------



## kc5tpy

Hello Rick.  Just my humble opinion but I don't think there is that optimum IT.  As you well know each brisket can be different.  I think the toothpick test is a good rule of thumb but I have had varied results using that.  Sometimes I have used it and then after resting 2-3 hours I end up with a juicey "fall apart" brisket.  I like my brisket to slice.  The pros are into competition.  They buy their meat from the same supplier each and every time.  It is PROBABLY from the same breed and from the same farm.  Price be damned.  That's how I would do it.  Then they have practiced with these briskets using different IT and different resting times.  Take THOSE briskets to an IT of 195 and rest it for no more or less than 2 hours, or whatever.

It becomes like tuning a racing car.  My Dad was into drag racing in the '50's and spent his life as a mechanic.  He taught me what I know about the old style cars.  He didn't own a torque wrench; EVER.  For this particular engine you gap the points here, you gap the plugs here, and you set the valve lifters this way for optimum performance.  Racing engines ( in the old days ) had to be set "looser" than factory settings to allow for greater oil flow.  Many times you even had to install a larger oil pan due to the increased torque, high speeds and heat.

Sorry for rambling but my point is that if you want to "dial in" a brisket to that level it seems to me you are going to have to go to extremes.  You can't just buy any ole brisket at the local Wal-Mart.  You need a setup so that your smoker varies no more than 1-2 degrees + or -.  If you and the family like your brisket; I'd stay with the girl you brought to the party.  I doubt with your experience you are missing anything.  Just my opinion.  Others may think different.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


----------



## daricksta

KC5TPY said:


> Hello Rick.  Just my humble opinion but I don't think there is that optimum IT.  As you well know each brisket can be different.  I think the toothpick test is a good rule of thumb but I have had varied results using that.  Sometimes I have used it and then after resting 2-3 hours I end up with a juicey "fall apart" brisket.  I like my brisket to slice.  The pros are into competition.  They buy their meat from the same supplier each and every time.  It is PROBABLY from the same breed and from the same farm.  Price be damned.  That's how I would do it.  Then they have practiced with these briskets using different IT and different resting times.  Take THOSE briskets to an IT of 195 and rest it for no more or less than 2 hours, or whatever.
> 
> It becomes like tuning a racing car.  My Dad was into drag racing in the '50's and spent his life as a mechanic.  He taught me what I know about the old style cars.  He didn't own a torque wrench; EVER.  For this particular engine you gap the points here, you gap the plugs here, and you set the valve lifters this way for optimum performance.  Racing engines ( in the old days ) had to be set "looser" than factory settings to allow for greater oil flow.  Many times you even had to install a larger oil pan due to the increased torque, high speeds and heat.
> 
> Sorry for rambling but my point is that if you want to "dial in" a brisket to that level it seems to me you are going to have to go to extremes.  You can't just buy any ole brisket at the local Wal-Mart.  You need a setup so that your smoker varies no more than 1-2 degrees + or -.  If you and the family like your brisket; I'd stay with the girl you brought to the party.  I doubt with your experience you are missing anything.  Just my opinion.  Others may think different.  Keep Smokin!
> 
> Danny


Danny, love your response. I watched an Aaron Franklin video where he talked about IT (as do a couple other pros in smoking cookbooks I own) and for them 195° was the magic number. Franklin used the hang test where he takes a slice of brisket and lets it hang from his hand. He shows the slice hangs together but easily pulls apart. Never done that myself but I'll try it next time.

I've been smoking for over 4 year and have smoked around 5-6 briskets total. Overall the results have been excellent. The last time I let the brisket finish at 197-198 degrees or something and it was very tender. I thought perhaps 200° might have been overcooking it. I'm always experimenting anyway.

I usually buy beef briskets at Safeway (which is a supermarket chain in a few states) but don't know who they order their briskets from because they come pre-packaged. Last Saturday I bought a USDA Prime full brisket packer, about 14 lbs. I'll have to slice it in half to fit on two separate racks since the entire brisket won't fit on just one rack in my MES 30 Gen 1. Never made burnt ends before so that's Job One for the half that has the point. I know when the meat's to temp I'll need to slice off the point and cook that a bit longer in the smoker. Perhaps with the flat half on the 2nd rack I'll cook that to 200°.

About how your dad worked on cars, his breed is gone, I think. At least those old cars are, by and large. I remember way back in college in the around '80-81 I was driving 500 miles back to my folks' place during a semester break in my '70 Plymouth Duster. The car dies out in the middle of nowhere on I-5. A Highway Patrol trooper called the Auto Club for me and the tow truck driver looked inside the engine and said the points were blown. He towed me to a gas station that sold auto parts and they luckily had points for my car. In those days I always traveled with my car repair tool kit since those 70 cars were easy to work on and I was a poor college student. Anyway, I didn't have a feeler gauge for the points so I gapped them by sight, getting them as close as I could. Darn it I didn't get it right! The engine fired up and I made it home. Later on I bought gauge so I could get the gaps right. The last car I attempted to service on my own was an '85 Mitsubishi Mirage with a transverse engine. It was such a pain to reach both the oil filter and the oil pan drain plug that I changed the oil once and that was the last time I worked on any car, except to install a new car battery or change the wiper blades.

Rick


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## daricksta

> Quote:





DaveOmak said:


> Rick, afternoon....    I cook brisket at 200-210...   once the meat gets to 180, the collagen breaks down pretty good....   it takes time to get it all broke down to make the meat tender......    after several hours at 180-185, the meat falls apart...  the final temp is not necessarily an indicator of tenderness...
> 
> *COOKING MEAT TEMPERATURES*
> 
> *105F/40C - 122F/50C* --Calpains begin to denature and lose activity till around 105F, cathepsains at 122F. Since enzyme activity increases up to those temperatures, slow cooking can provide a significant aging effect during cooking. Meat should however be quickly seared or blanched first to kill surface microbes.
> 
> *120°F/50°C -- *Meat develops a white opacity as heat sensitive myosin denatures. Coagulation produces large enough clumps to scatter light. Red meat turns pink.
> 
> 
> 
> *140°F/60°C -- *Red myoglobin begins to denature into tan colored hemichrome. Meat turns from pink to brown-grey color.
> 
> *140°F/60°C -- *Meat suddely releases lots of juice, shrinks noticebly, and becomes chewy as a result of collagen denaturing which squeezes out liquids.
> 
> *160°F/70°C* -- *Connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. Melting of collagen starts to accelerate at 160F and continues rapidly up to 180F*
> 
> *NOTES*: At 140*°*F changes are caused by the denaturing of collagen in the cells. Meat served at this temperature med-rare is changing from juicy to dry. At 160*°*F/ 70*°*C connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. This however is a very lengthy process. The fibers are still stiff and dry but meat seems more tender. Source: Harold McGee -- On Food and Cooking
> 
> Scattered among the muscle fibers are fat cells which store energy for the muscles. Fat is crucial to meat texture. Waxy when it is cold, fat does not evaporate when you are cooking as does water. It melts and lubricates the fibers as they are getting tougher under the heat. Fat is also the source of much of the flavor in meat. As the animal ages the flavor compounds build up and get stronger. After the animal is slaughtered, the fat can turn rancid if stored improperly or too long.


Wow, when you put cooking brisket into scientific terms I may never cook or eat it again! Still, it is cool to read. In another thread I started (turned out to be evaporative cooling while smoking a brisket) you posted a longer version of this article. I have it saved to my computer as reference material. Just wanted to let you know that despite the problems I posted about, that brisket turned out very good. It was tender and flavorful. I was amazed. Not as much smoke flavor as I prefer--and I like smoke to enhance food and not overpower it--I was still proud of the finished product.

Dave, if the connective tissue is all broken down by the time the IT is 185*°*F and the meat is fall apart tender, why do you choose to cook it perhaps up to 210*°*? Why do you prefer to go over the 200 degree mark instead of pulling the brisket at 195°?  I was concerned that by cooking it to 200-202° that I might be overcooking and beginning to dry out the meat. But even at 200° after foiling the brisket I found the bark was much softer than I wanted it to be so starting with the next smoke I'm wrapping it in butcher paper. Another time I might try cooking it with the brisket naked but my family likes the bark on wrapped briskets better.


----------



## SmokinAl

If it were me I would try it at 195 & see if you think that is right for you. 

It will slice better at 195, but be more tender at 200. Maybe somewhere in between is what you will like.

You may also find that one brisket will be tender at 195 & another one won't be tender until 210.

The probe or toothpick test is a good way to tell if it's where you want it.

Al


----------



## daveomak




----------



## daricksta

> Quote:





SmokinAl said:


> If it were me I would try it at 195 & see if you think that is right for you.
> 
> It will slice better at 195, but be more tender at 200. Maybe somewhere in between is what you will like.
> 
> You may also find that one brisket will be tender at 195 & another one won't be tender until 210.
> 
> The probe or toothpick test is a good way to tell if it's where you want it.
> 
> Al


Al, I'm not familiar with the probe or toothpick test. How do you do it? I saw an Aaron Franklin video where he did the hang test: letting a slice hang from one hand and then seeing how easily he could rip the bottom section off with the other. You and Dave bring up a good point about different briskets perhaps needing longer cooking times to reach the same degree of tenderness. My mind tends towards absolutes in some things so if I've decided to pull a brisket at 195-197° IT I do it without regard to its size or the characteristics of that particular cut of meat. But I'm open to different ways of thinking so that's why I'm interested in another way to test for tenderness.


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> You misunderstood......    I set the smoker temp to 200 ish....   The brisket temp will rise to 180-185.....    It needs to hold at that temp for several hours while the collagen breaks down...
> 
> I chose a smoker temp of 200 ish because it's below the boiling point of water.....   Meat will generally get to about 15 degrees below the smoker temp...  I feel evaporative cooling is reduced if the smoker temp is below the boiling point of water...  evaporation still takes place but the pressure of water trying to boil is reduced.....
> 
> Braising meat is done to tenderize it...  braising should NEVER be done in boiling water...  generally accepted temp is below boiling... 180-200..
> 
> I'm just trying to help you understand the physics of meats...
> 
> To reiterate.....    final temp does not determine tenderness...   the time at 180 ish internal temp is what determines tenderness......
> 
> Just trying to answer your question....


I did get confused between cooking temps and IT in your answer so thanks for the clarification. What's your background, Dave? Is it in science or do you just have a lifelong interest in the science behind cooking? I find it very interesting. Generally speaking, smoking books recommend cooking temps between 225-275° but, which I also find interesting, the authors of "Smoke & Spice" recommend smoking temps between 200-210° but they don't give the scientific basis behind it. As for for me, thinking about smoking temps vis-a-vis boiling point of water and evaporative cooling are too much to think about. The way I look at it is that the lower the cooking temp the longer it takes to cook meat to its finish IT and I typically can't get the smoker fired up early enough to ensure the smoke is done before dinner time.

I think in a way the final temp does determine tenderness--operative words being "in a way". If meat tenderizes at 180ish then is seems to me that the temps over 185° would contribute to that tenderness unless the meat is left in the smoker too long and the higher IT causes the meat to be overcooked, which can happen even in a MES.


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## SmokinAl

daRicksta said:


> Al, I'm not familiar with the probe or toothpick test. How do you do it? I saw an Aaron Franklin video where he did the hang test: letting a slice hang from one hand and then seeing how easily he could rip the bottom section off with the other. You and Dave bring up a good point about different briskets perhaps needing longer cooking times to reach the same degree of tenderness. My mind tends towards absolutes in some things so if I've decided to pull a brisket at 195-197° IT I do it without regard to its size or the characteristics of that particular cut of meat. But I'm open to different ways of thinking so that's why I'm interested in another way to test for tenderness.


The probe or toothpick test is simply inserting a probe or toothpick in multiple places all over the brisket.

When the brisket is done the probe or toothpick should go in like it was room temp butter, ie. little to no resistance.

Al


----------



## chef jimmyj

Dave's info is helpful in understanding how meat gets tender. If you have the time to go extra Low and Slow, 200°F, on Intact meat only, you can keep a Brisket Moist and get it Tender. In general, IT is just a good guide to look at the meat harder for tenderness with other methods. Like a Probe Test. Aaron Frinklin kows his Brisket but a Hang Test with a slice is not practical. I would hardly want to pull a Hot Brisket out of my smoker and Slice It to see if the meat is tender. What juices are in there would soon run out all over the board! He is most likely refering to a way to demonstate you nailed the tenderness, rather than an proactive test during a cook...JJ


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> In my MES, I'll smoke meats for up to 4 hours, then up the temp to 200 ish and close the exhaust down to about 10% open....  in 24 hours I pull it out of the smoker....  let it rest for a couple hours and it's done...
> 
> I don't try to hurry meat...     I don't test it for doneness anymore...   given enough time at the correct temperature, the meat is done and it won't dry out...   Internal muscular fat is where flavor and moisture comes from in the meat...


You close the vent to about 10%? I've always left mine wide open because I thought with the reduced airflow the wood pellets in my AMNPS would go out. But having said that, I has a lot of problems with Pitmaster's Choice pellets from a 3 or so year old bag going old during a 3 hour smoke. The weather was cooler on that day. In warmer, sunny weather I usually don't have that problem with older pellets. I saw that MB recommends the vent be closed when cooking meats except for fish or jerky. Do you partially close the vent to keep more heat and moisture inside the MES? I never had a problem with keeping either in with the top vent wide open.

I smoke meats anywhere from 4-11 hours on average, depending on what I'm smoking. And like you, I don't test for doneness. As you said, smoking is just a matter of time and temperature--the amount of time it takes to get meat to your targeted finish IT. I'm also liking that, from what I've been reading in the news, internal muscular fat is not the arteries clogger it was thought to be--in moderation, of course.


----------



## daricksta

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Dave's info is helpful in understanding how meat gets tender. If you have the time to go extra Low and Slow, 200°F, on Intact meat only, you can keep a Brisket Moist and get it Tender. In general, IT is just a good guide to look at the meat harder for tenderness with other methods. Like a Probe Test. Aaron Frinklin kmows his Brisket but a Hang Test with a slice is not practical. I would hardly want to pull a Hot Brisket out of my smoker and Slice It to see if the meat is tender. What juices are in there would soon run out all over the board!...JJ


I know what you mean. I was stupid and unwrapped the brisket since I like to bring it "home" naked just to get the bark texture I want. When I unwrapped the brisket from the foil all the juice spilled out, barely missing me. Good thing I was also wearing gloves so that I could put it back in the smoker right away.

Also, for that hang test, Franklin had smoked 3 briskets using 3 different techniques. The briskets were fully rested so he was able to slice them and hold a slice in his hand without burning his fingers or spilling hot juices everywhere. I'm not going to try that. I can typically tell when I slice a rested brisket if it was done or not.

For me, smoking at 200° would just take too long. I'm typically lucky if I get a brisket on by 9 am. I smoke at 225-235° to keep the heat low but to hopefully ensure a 6 lb. brisket flat will be done by 6-7 pm with still time for it to rest. I rarely get it done early enough to wrap it in foil. cover it with a towel and stick it in a cooler for 2 hours.


----------



## daricksta

SmokinAl said:


> The probe or toothpick test is simply inserting a probe or toothpick in multiple places all over the brisket.
> 
> When the brisket is done the probe or toothpick should go in like it was room temp butter, ie. little to no resistance.
> 
> Al


But doesn't cooking it to at least 195°F IT take care of that--ensuring the brisket is done?


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> What's your background, Dave? Is it in science or do you just have a lifelong interest in the science behind cooking?
> 
> What ever I chose to take on, I delve into the why's that make it happen...  Not much point in trying to cook a hunk of meat, and looking for it to be tender, if you don't understand what makes it tender in the first place....  Kind of like reinventing the wheel...  Folks have already figured this stuff out....   That's why BBQ books sell...  First timers check out what others have done...   Some say cook at 275-300.... others say cook at 200-210....    So I read up on the subject and find out why there are 2 schools of thought...  Cooking at 300 is for folks in a hurry...  cooking at 200 is for lazy, old, forgetful folks like myself....   It just don't matter if it's done today...   It'll be done tomorrow...  and it'll be good too....
> 
> Disclaimer....  that doesn't work for bread... I've gotta set a timer for bread....


I envy your freedom of time. For me, smoking time is a compromise. Even though I typically wake up around 4-5 am daily, I'm not ready to face the hassle of setting up my smoker until near 9 am unless I have an important meal planned and need to get the meat inside the smoker by 7 or 8 am--which is rare. I'm usually dealing with no more than a 7 lb. brisket or 2-3 racks of b-back or STL ribs. Whatever I'm smoking is scheduled to be dinner that night so I need to make sure it's done in time, but a few times I've missed the deadline.

There are things that interest me in detail that I'll read up on. Science isn't one of them. I've got lots of grilling and smoking books. I've done online reading and tried out smoking tips I've learned here. My eyes glaze over at all the science and chemical interactions and what happens to components of fat and meat when exposed to heat and to smoke. All I can recall is the basics of how to get a smoke ring in meat. All I really have the attention span for is to read a recipe and to recall techniques like wrapping in foil or butcher paper or leaving the meat naked. From my reading and personal experience I decide on the temp set point and on the finish IT. I have developed my own style but if I come across tweaks that might help I try those out. My favorite smoking temp zone is 225-235° because most smoking meat recipes call for that. I wish I were more like you where when the meat's done it's done. With me, it's always a question of if the meat will be done on time, will the wood pellets stay lit, is the smoker temp at my set point or close to it. Given all this, I'm right proud that I can still produce really good Q in my MES.

I actually prefer grilling with my Weber kettle grill over smoking. For one thing, it's a lot faster. I can lift the lid and instantly see the progress. I don't have to worry about temp swings or the coals going out. While I really like good Q I love the taste of grilled foods. What's nice for me is that I have both a smoker and a grill so I can do both whenever I choose.

As for bread baking, that's my wife's department.


----------



## daveomak




----------



## dv242

daRicksta said:


> I envy your freedom of time. For me, smoking time is a compromise. Even though I typically wake up around 4-5 am daily, I'm not ready to face the hassle of setting up my smoker until near 9 am unless I have an important meal planned and need to get the meat inside the smoker by 7 or 8 am--which is rare. I'm usually dealing with no more than a 7 lb. brisket or 2-3 racks of b-back or STL ribs. Whatever I'm smoking is scheduled to be dinner that night so I need to make sure it's done in time, but a few times I've missed the deadline.
> 
> There are things that interest me in detail that I'll read up on. Science isn't one of them. I've got lots of grilling and smoking books. I've done online reading and tried out smoking tips I've learned here. My eyes glaze over at all the science and chemical interactions and what happens to components of fat and meat when exposed to heat and to smoke. All I can recall is the basics of how to get a smoke ring in meat. All I really have the attention span for is to read a recipe and to recall techniques like wrapping in foil or butcher paper or leaving the meat naked. From my reading and personal experience I decide on the temp set point and on the finish IT. I have developed my own style but if I come across tweaks that might help I try those out. My favorite smoking temp zone is 225-235° because most smoking meat recipes call for that. I wish I were more like you where when the meat's done it's done. With me, it's always a question of if the meat will be done on time, will the wood pellets stay lit, is the smoker temp at my set point or close to it. Given all this, I'm right proud that I can still produce really good Q in my MES.
> 
> I actually prefer grilling with my Weber kettle grill over smoking. For one thing, it's a lot faster. I can lift the lid and instantly see the progress. I don't have to worry about temp swings or the coals going out. While I really like good Q I love the taste of grilled foods. What's nice for me is that I have both a smoker and a grill so I can do both whenever I choose.
> 
> As for bread baking, that's my wife's department.


That about describes me, except that if I'm doing a brisket or pork butt, I put it on the night before. You have to guesstimate the time a bit but 11 pm usually gets you ready to wrap (for brisket) by 7am. Finished by noon or 1pm at 210-225 (IT of 200 for brisket, 203 for butts). Throw in a cooler for 2 or 3 hours to rest, then pull or slice for dinner.

I also have a weber kettle and have started playing around smoking with it using the Slow and Sear, which is a great addition for the kettle. Still working on finding the sweet spot to settle on 225, tough to keep it under 240. I have also had trouble keep the pellets going in my AMNPS this year. Last year, I had no problem getting 12, or very near 12 hours out of a full maze without ever re-starting but this year the pellets are going out frequently. Do they get old or should they be good still if purchased last year? They have been sealed in plastic bags.


----------



## daricksta

DV242 said:


> That about describes me, except that if I'm doing a brisket or pork butt, I put it on the night before. You have to guesstimate the time a bit but 11 pm usually gets you ready to wrap (for brisket) by 7am. Finished by noon or 1pm at 210-225 (IT of 200 for brisket, 203 for butts). Throw in a cooler for 2 or 3 hours to rest, then pull or slice for dinner.
> 
> I also have a weber kettle and have started playing around smoking with it using the Slow and Sear, which is a great addition for the kettle. Still working on finding the sweet spot to settle on 225, tough to keep it under 240. I have also had trouble keep the pellets going in my AMNPS this year. Last year, I had no problem getting 12, or very near 12 hours out of a full maze without ever re-starting but this year the pellets are going out frequently. Do they get old or should they be good still if purchased last year? They have been sealed in plastic bags.


First, I and a number of guys have the same problem with wood pellets going out. I had that problem last Monday when I smoked a beef tenderloin roast. The problem appears to be worse in cooler weather. I also store the wood pellets in their plastic bags. The pellets I used on Monday are about 2-3 years old. Some guys will nuke the pellets for about a minute or so. My wife has suggested vacuum sealing them in a Food Saver bag, something I might try with some of them. The problem with vacuuming wood pellets--like with coffee beans--is that the sharp edges on the ends of the pellets could puncture the vacuum bags. But then again, I've smoked many times with older pellets that performed beautifully.

So that I don't have to look it up, what's the Weber Slow and Sear? I've used wood chips in my Weber and a friend of mine sent me a homemade wood pellet smoker sleeve that I used a couple of times. Tonight I plan to grill a Santa Maria style tri-tip roast. The recipe calls for using wood chunks but I'll be using my AMNT--the A-MAZE-N Tube Smoker inside the Weber to generate the wood smoke. I also bought a Maverick laser gun therm so that I know the temp inside the Weber. The best way to control the heat inside a Weber is to either set up heat/no heat zones or to grill over indirect heat.

I don't ever smoke overnight or when I'm not awake or if I'm away from the house. I have the ET-733 receiver unit at all times so that I can monitor the smoker heat and the meat IT. I also go out to look at the MES to make sure smoke is rising from the top vent. If it isn't, I know the pellets have gone out--again--and I need to re-light them. Also, there have been occasions when MES units spontaneously combusted during a smoke. Not something you want to happen while you're sleeping.


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


>


Did you delete your comment about  after 4 hours the smoke is done? I posted a couple of years ago about something similar being taught by a pitmaster who ran BBQ classes here in the Pacific Northwest. He contended that once the pellicle formed no more smoke could be absorbed by the meat. Many guys here disagreed. I also wonder about that because from all the BBQ competitions I've watched, all the pros barbecue their meats all day/night over wood smoke. None of them wrapped the meat but they kept adding wood logs to their offset smokers. But I can't remember if they showed contestants adding wood chunks to their BGEs or Webers if they were using those to smoke meat.


----------



## dv242

daRicksta said:


> First, I and a number of guys have the same problem with wood pellets going out. I had that problem last Monday when I smoked a beef tenderloin roast. The problem appears to be worse in cooler weather. I also store the wood pellets in their plastic bags. The pellets I used on Monday are about 2-3 years old. Some guys will nuke the pellets for about a minute or so.
> 
> So that I don't have to look it up, what's the Weber Slow and Sear?


I usually fill my AMNPS and put it in the MES for about 30 minutes while it's preheating, that heat/dries the pellets out, use a torch to light it, and heat gun to get a nice, red hot cherry on the end of the line of pellets before placing in the mailbox. Still having issues with it going out. My wife likes a light, "kiss" of smoke, too much and she will not eat it, so if it goes out for a while, I don't panic. 

Here is the Slow N Sear.


I've used it a few times and it works pretty well. Comes with a little booklet that tells you how to best utilize it. Basically, it sets up 2 zone cooking in your kettle, and also has a built in water reservoir. It says 8+ hours but both time I've used it, 10.5 to 11 hours later I still had 225 degrees. It was a bit tough to get down that low, had to actually spray the coals with a little water after 2 hours but once it got to down to 225-235, it stayed pretty steady.


----------



## daricksta

DV242 said:


> I usually fill my AMNPS and put it in the MES for about 30 minutes while it's preheating, that heat/dries the pellets out, use a torch to light it, and heat gun to get a nice, red hot cherry on the end of the line of pellets before placing in the mailbox. Still having issues with it going out. My wife likes a light, "kiss" of smoke, too much and she will not eat it, so if it goes out for a while, I don't panic.
> 
> Here is the Slow N Sear.
> 
> 
> I've used it a few times and it works pretty well. Comes with a little booklet that tells you how to best utilize it. Basically, it sets up 2 zone cooking in your kettle, and also has a built in water reservoir. It says 8+ hours but both time I've used it, 10.5 to 11 hours later I still had 225 degrees. It was a bit tough to get down that low, had to actually spray the coals with a little water after 2 hours but once it got to down to 225-235, it stayed pretty steady.


It looks interesting and I like the idea of it. But that thing costs more than what I paid for my Weber 22.5" One Touch Silver kettle grill. That's the same reason I never bought the rotisserie attachment. For indirect heat cooking on the Weber I already have the charcoal briquette holders. I just place an empty foil pan between them to use as a drip tray. For low and slow cooking I still prefer my MES 30.


----------



## bswanney

This maybe clear off the thread but try cooking your brisket in the oven at 250 for about 5 hours, 8 to 10 lbs.  I put it in a foil pan and tightly wrap it the entire 5 hours.  I season it and it comes out pull apart tender every time.  I will use this as my gauge after my smoker purchase.  Just want to attempt to duplicate the tenderness with alot more flavor.  Looking forward to the next adventure.


----------



## kernbigo

a pro told me never go over 205, 195-205


----------



## daricksta

bswanney said:


> This maybe clear off the thread but try cooking your brisket in the oven at 250 for about 5 hours, 8 to 10 lbs. I put it in a foil pan and tightly wrap it the entire 5 hours. I season it and it comes out pull apart tender every time. I will use this as my gauge after my smoker purchase. Just want to attempt to duplicate the tenderness with alot more flavor. Looking forward to the next adventure.


Your post is definitely relevant to the thread. I think it was one of Jeff Phillips' recipes I first read about smoking a brisket in a foil pan. I usually just place it on the rack. Jeff says even in the pan the brisket will still absorb smoke. I think 250 is a reasonable cooking temp but I guess it's the wrapping the 8-10 lbs. brisket (in foil I assume) is what's getting it pull apart tender after only 5 hours. Unwrapped in my smoker it would be hitting 160° after 5 hours. Mine usually take 9-11 hours to get fully done. My set point is 235° but with the temp swings in a MES 30 Gen 1 the temp can fluctuate up to 250° or so or down to 225° during heating cycles.

Yes, wait till you try smoking a beef brisket in a smoker. You get the smoky deliciousness of the tender meat wrapped in a nice, crunchy bark. With my nest brisket I'm wrapping it in butcher paper instead of foil and will report back the results. Many guys choose to cook them naked, choosing not to employ the Texas Crutch.


----------



## rickbrooks01

If I may add a tidbit of information.

I'm a chemist by trade.

There is something called an enthalpy change that requires more energy or absorbs more energy to change states.

The heating rate is linear until it nears the boiling point of water, then it flattens out until it boils. Then won't heat anymore because it's now steam.

I.e. When water boils it heats up steadily until about 210 Deg F, then takes seemingly forever to actually start boiling.

That's because it requires more energy to change from a liquid to a vapor (steam).

Inverse for freezing.

Ice cubes require more energy to change from a solid to a liquid.

That's why ice works better than cubes of plastic at cooling your drinks.

The cubes suck heat out of the water as it changes states from a solid to a liquid.

I'm sure the same principal works for the fats, proteins, etc. in a brisket, or any piece of food.

When wax changes states to a liquid.

I'm cooking a  brisket right now that's stuck at 180 Deg. F for 2 hours.

Which is why I came to this forum!


----------



## daricksta

rickbrooks01 said:


> If I may add a tidbit of information.
> 
> I'm a chemist by trade.
> 
> There is something called an enthalpy change that requires more energy or absorbs more energy to change states.
> 
> The heating rate is linear until it nears the boiling point of water, then it flattens out until it boils. Then won't heat anymore because it's now steam.
> 
> I.e. When water boils it heats up steadily until about 210 Deg F, then takes seemingly forever to actually start boiling.
> 
> That's because it requires more energy to change from a liquid to a vapor (steam).
> 
> Inverse for freezing.
> 
> Ice cubes require more energy to change from a solid to a liquid.
> 
> That's why ice works better than cubes of plastic at cooling your drinks.
> 
> The cubes suck heat out of the water as it changes states from a solid to a liquid.
> 
> I'm sure the same principal works for the fats, proteins, etc. in a brisket, or any piece of food.
> 
> When wax changes states to a liquid.
> 
> I'm cooking a  brisket right now that's stuck at 180 Deg. F for 2 hours.
> 
> Which is why I came to this forum!


That's great information, along the lines of what Dave Omak provides. I didn't know any of that. I think the last time I smoked a brisket flat it stalled twice--at around 150° and then again around 180°. Two stalls have never happened to me before but then my MES 30 is doing some things it's never done before which might call for a relatively minor electrical repair.

After watching an Aaron Franklin video and reading his cookbook along with an interview I invested in unlined butcher paper to wrap briskets in. The video showed that a paper-wrapped brisket results in a better product than a naked or a foiled brisket. With my next smoke I plan to test it out.


----------



## kernbigo

I got my recipe from a person who used to travel the smoking contests. You smoke it un covered for 5-6 hrs , than wrap in foil for another 4-5 hrs, take out and wrap in news paper over the foil and put in a cooler for 2 hrs. I comes out perfect, internal temp is around 200-205, the smoker temp should be 225 degrees, full smoke for the first 5-6 hrs..


----------



## rickbrooks01

Glad I could help.

Maybe that's why we hear some of the pit masters smoking for 12 or 14 hours.

I have an idea i'll try soon. Smoke the meat for 4-6 hours until it gets stuck at 180 Deg.

Then stick a thermometer in it and put it in a pressure cooker on a very low setting with a little water in it and monitor the temp and see how it comes out.

Just an experiment....That's what I do.

I don't want to alienate any smokers out there!

(Science lesson #2; the boiling point of water increases under pressure.)

The same gas law is why Brady's footballs lost pressure when they were brought out to the cold air.

I'll let y'all know.

RickB

Patriots season ticket holder since 1971 and livin' in and lovin' Houston.

Now the Texans are my #2 Team. They could go all the way this year!

And, I love TX BBQ!


----------



## daricksta

rickbrooks01 said:


> Glad I could help.
> 
> Maybe that's why we hear some of the pit masters smoking for 12 or 14 hours.
> 
> I have an idea i'll try soon. Smoke the meat for 4-6 hours until it gets stuck at 180 Deg.
> 
> Then stick a thermometer in it and put it in a pressure cooker on a very low setting with a little water in it and monitor the temp and see how it comes out.
> 
> Just an experiment....That's what I do.
> 
> I don't want to alienate any smokers out there!
> 
> (Science lesson #2; the boiling point of water increases under pressure.)
> 
> The same gas law is why Brady's footballs lost pressure when they were brought out to the cold air.
> 
> I'll let y'all know.
> 
> RickB
> 
> Patriots season ticket holder since 1971 and livin' in and lovin' Houston.
> 
> Now the Texans are my #2 Team. They could go all the way this year!
> 
> And, I love TX BBQ!


I join you in your TX BBQ lovefest. I also love pressure cooker cooking. But I tell ya, that would have to be at least a 10 qt. jobber for that brisket flat to fit. Mine is an 8 qt and can handle a large-ish boneless chuck roast but a brisket flat would be too long and I wouldn't want to have to slice it in half before the cook was finished.


----------



## daricksta

Kernbigo said:


> I got my recipe from a person who used to travel the smoking contests. You smoke it un covered for 5-6 hrs , than wrap in foil for another 4-5 hrs, take out and wrap in news paper over the foil and put in a cooler for 2 hrs. I comes out perfect, internal temp is around 200-205, the smoker temp should be 225 degrees, full smoke for the first 5-6 hrs..


I've done the foil thing which is why I'm switching to butcher paper. But I agree that when it's removed from the smoker to wrap it in foil and place it in a cooler. A lot of guys places newspapers on top but I just pile on a couple of towels.

Some guys and pros look for an IT of 195° which is what I hit last time I smoked one. But before that I also went for 200-205° IT and in my opinion _that's _the sweet spot. At 195° the soft fat and collagen still aren't rendered down to where I like it. I also try for a 225° set point but right now my MES 30 controller insists on pushing the temp up 40-60 degrees higher. I've been told I may need to service a couple of wires and connectors behind the rectangular plate in the back. I'll look into that before I smoke my next brisket. I have a 12 lb. whole packer brisket in the freezer just waiting for some smoky love.


----------



## hoity toit

red butcher paper or browm construction paper is what I have used on my last 2 with great success,,,,,


----------



## rickbrooks01

What's the best rub to use?

Should I let it sit in the rub overnight?

Should I brine the brisket?

I'm doing a brisket this weekend.

Oh, actually.

I'm in Detox this weekend. (LOL) Too much hooch causing Diabeties, according to Dr. 

I used to be an athlete and the girls came looking for me...40 years ago..

Ask me about Debbie Allen sometime...

So, I'll do the smoking next weekend.

RickB


----------



## daricksta

bswanney said:


> This maybe clear off the thread but try cooking your brisket in the oven at 250 for about 5 hours, 8 to 10 lbs. I put it in a foil pan and tightly wrap it the entire 5 hours. I season it and it comes out pull apart tender every time. I will use this as my gauge after my smoker purchase. Just want to attempt to duplicate the tenderness with alot more flavor. Looking forward to the next adventure.


In the kitchen my wife and I typically cook a brisket in a slow cooker or a Dutch oven according to what recipe we're using. Yes, it always comes out tender. Cooking it in a smoker delightfully results in a whole other animal with bark if it's done right. There's just a bit more work when you smoke a brisket.


----------



## daricksta

Hoity Toit said:


> red butcher paper or browm construction paper is what I have used on my last 2 with great success,,,,,


I bought the pink butcher paper. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## brickguy221

daRicksta said:


> That's great information, along the lines of what Dave Omak provides. I didn't know any of that. I think the last time I smoked a brisket flat it stalled twice--at around 150° and then again around 180°. Two stalls have never happened to me before but then my MES 30 is doing some things it's never done before which might call for a relatively minor electrical repair.
> 
> After watching an Aaron Franklin video and reading his cookbook along with an interview I invested in unlined butcher paper to wrap briskets in. The video showed that a paper-wrapped brisket results in a better product than a naked or a foiled brisket. With my next smoke I plan to test it out.


I hope the Aaron Franklin book is a good book because I just ordered one from Amazon last night and it is suppoe to be deliered tomorrow (Friday)


----------



## daricksta

Brickguy221 said:


> I hope the Aaron Franklin book is a good book because I just ordered one from Amazon last night and it is suppoe to be deliered tomorrow (Friday)


I thought it looked amazing. At $30 it was just too pricey for just the few recipes I was interested in: pork ribs and beef brisket. If I didn't already have library of smoking and grilling books I woulda plunked down my dough when I saw it on the shelf at Powell's City Of Books in Portland, OR. It has a great text where Aaron tells you everything and it also has plenty of instructional photos. I decided that since there are online videos and interviews where Aaron says and demonstrates the same stuff that I'd go with them. At least he turned me onto keeping pork ribs unwrapped and using butcher paper to wrap briskets. I still prefer to cook briskets to a higher IT than he does. I think the pros pull them too early at 195 degrees but I can't remember exactly his IT preference.

Hey, enjoy the book and please post a review on it.


----------



## brickguy221

I got the book off Amazon for $17


----------



## daricksta

Brickguy221 said:


> I got the book off Amazon for $17


Hmmm, I think I might know what I want for my birthday....


----------



## daricksta

I've been smoking both beef briskets and pork shoulders to an IT of 200°. But I've been reading that the pros recommend 190-195°, the most popular being 195. I thought that at this temp not all the soft fat renders down and the meat is still a little tough. What are the thoughts here about the best IT for a beef brisket?


----------



## kc5tpy

Hello Rick.  Just my humble opinion but I don't think there is that optimum IT.  As you well know each brisket can be different.  I think the toothpick test is a good rule of thumb but I have had varied results using that.  Sometimes I have used it and then after resting 2-3 hours I end up with a juicey "fall apart" brisket.  I like my brisket to slice.  The pros are into competition.  They buy their meat from the same supplier each and every time.  It is PROBABLY from the same breed and from the same farm.  Price be damned.  That's how I would do it.  Then they have practiced with these briskets using different IT and different resting times.  Take THOSE briskets to an IT of 195 and rest it for no more or less than 2 hours, or whatever.

It becomes like tuning a racing car.  My Dad was into drag racing in the '50's and spent his life as a mechanic.  He taught me what I know about the old style cars.  He didn't own a torque wrench; EVER.  For this particular engine you gap the points here, you gap the plugs here, and you set the valve lifters this way for optimum performance.  Racing engines ( in the old days ) had to be set "looser" than factory settings to allow for greater oil flow.  Many times you even had to install a larger oil pan due to the increased torque, high speeds and heat.

Sorry for rambling but my point is that if you want to "dial in" a brisket to that level it seems to me you are going to have to go to extremes.  You can't just buy any ole brisket at the local Wal-Mart.  You need a setup so that your smoker varies no more than 1-2 degrees + or -.  If you and the family like your brisket; I'd stay with the girl you brought to the party.  I doubt with your experience you are missing anything.  Just my opinion.  Others may think different.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


----------



## daricksta

KC5TPY said:


> Hello Rick.  Just my humble opinion but I don't think there is that optimum IT.  As you well know each brisket can be different.  I think the toothpick test is a good rule of thumb but I have had varied results using that.  Sometimes I have used it and then after resting 2-3 hours I end up with a juicey "fall apart" brisket.  I like my brisket to slice.  The pros are into competition.  They buy their meat from the same supplier each and every time.  It is PROBABLY from the same breed and from the same farm.  Price be damned.  That's how I would do it.  Then they have practiced with these briskets using different IT and different resting times.  Take THOSE briskets to an IT of 195 and rest it for no more or less than 2 hours, or whatever.
> 
> It becomes like tuning a racing car.  My Dad was into drag racing in the '50's and spent his life as a mechanic.  He taught me what I know about the old style cars.  He didn't own a torque wrench; EVER.  For this particular engine you gap the points here, you gap the plugs here, and you set the valve lifters this way for optimum performance.  Racing engines ( in the old days ) had to be set "looser" than factory settings to allow for greater oil flow.  Many times you even had to install a larger oil pan due to the increased torque, high speeds and heat.
> 
> Sorry for rambling but my point is that if you want to "dial in" a brisket to that level it seems to me you are going to have to go to extremes.  You can't just buy any ole brisket at the local Wal-Mart.  You need a setup so that your smoker varies no more than 1-2 degrees + or -.  If you and the family like your brisket; I'd stay with the girl you brought to the party.  I doubt with your experience you are missing anything.  Just my opinion.  Others may think different.  Keep Smokin!
> 
> Danny


Danny, love your response. I watched an Aaron Franklin video where he talked about IT (as do a couple other pros in smoking cookbooks I own) and for them 195° was the magic number. Franklin used the hang test where he takes a slice of brisket and lets it hang from his hand. He shows the slice hangs together but easily pulls apart. Never done that myself but I'll try it next time.

I've been smoking for over 4 year and have smoked around 5-6 briskets total. Overall the results have been excellent. The last time I let the brisket finish at 197-198 degrees or something and it was very tender. I thought perhaps 200° might have been overcooking it. I'm always experimenting anyway.

I usually buy beef briskets at Safeway (which is a supermarket chain in a few states) but don't know who they order their briskets from because they come pre-packaged. Last Saturday I bought a USDA Prime full brisket packer, about 14 lbs. I'll have to slice it in half to fit on two separate racks since the entire brisket won't fit on just one rack in my MES 30 Gen 1. Never made burnt ends before so that's Job One for the half that has the point. I know when the meat's to temp I'll need to slice off the point and cook that a bit longer in the smoker. Perhaps with the flat half on the 2nd rack I'll cook that to 200°.

About how your dad worked on cars, his breed is gone, I think. At least those old cars are, by and large. I remember way back in college in the around '80-81 I was driving 500 miles back to my folks' place during a semester break in my '70 Plymouth Duster. The car dies out in the middle of nowhere on I-5. A Highway Patrol trooper called the Auto Club for me and the tow truck driver looked inside the engine and said the points were blown. He towed me to a gas station that sold auto parts and they luckily had points for my car. In those days I always traveled with my car repair tool kit since those 70 cars were easy to work on and I was a poor college student. Anyway, I didn't have a feeler gauge for the points so I gapped them by sight, getting them as close as I could. Darn it I didn't get it right! The engine fired up and I made it home. Later on I bought gauge so I could get the gaps right. The last car I attempted to service on my own was an '85 Mitsubishi Mirage with a transverse engine. It was such a pain to reach both the oil filter and the oil pan drain plug that I changed the oil once and that was the last time I worked on any car, except to install a new car battery or change the wiper blades.

Rick


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## daricksta

> Quote:





DaveOmak said:


> Rick, afternoon....    I cook brisket at 200-210...   once the meat gets to 180, the collagen breaks down pretty good....   it takes time to get it all broke down to make the meat tender......    after several hours at 180-185, the meat falls apart...  the final temp is not necessarily an indicator of tenderness...
> 
> *COOKING MEAT TEMPERATURES*
> 
> *105F/40C - 122F/50C* --Calpains begin to denature and lose activity till around 105F, cathepsains at 122F. Since enzyme activity increases up to those temperatures, slow cooking can provide a significant aging effect during cooking. Meat should however be quickly seared or blanched first to kill surface microbes.
> 
> *120°F/50°C -- *Meat develops a white opacity as heat sensitive myosin denatures. Coagulation produces large enough clumps to scatter light. Red meat turns pink.
> 
> 
> 
> *140°F/60°C -- *Red myoglobin begins to denature into tan colored hemichrome. Meat turns from pink to brown-grey color.
> 
> *140°F/60°C -- *Meat suddely releases lots of juice, shrinks noticebly, and becomes chewy as a result of collagen denaturing which squeezes out liquids.
> 
> *160°F/70°C* -- *Connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. Melting of collagen starts to accelerate at 160F and continues rapidly up to 180F*
> 
> *NOTES*: At 140*°*F changes are caused by the denaturing of collagen in the cells. Meat served at this temperature med-rare is changing from juicy to dry. At 160*°*F/ 70*°*C connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. This however is a very lengthy process. The fibers are still stiff and dry but meat seems more tender. Source: Harold McGee -- On Food and Cooking
> 
> Scattered among the muscle fibers are fat cells which store energy for the muscles. Fat is crucial to meat texture. Waxy when it is cold, fat does not evaporate when you are cooking as does water. It melts and lubricates the fibers as they are getting tougher under the heat. Fat is also the source of much of the flavor in meat. As the animal ages the flavor compounds build up and get stronger. After the animal is slaughtered, the fat can turn rancid if stored improperly or too long.


Wow, when you put cooking brisket into scientific terms I may never cook or eat it again! Still, it is cool to read. In another thread I started (turned out to be evaporative cooling while smoking a brisket) you posted a longer version of this article. I have it saved to my computer as reference material. Just wanted to let you know that despite the problems I posted about, that brisket turned out very good. It was tender and flavorful. I was amazed. Not as much smoke flavor as I prefer--and I like smoke to enhance food and not overpower it--I was still proud of the finished product.

Dave, if the connective tissue is all broken down by the time the IT is 185*°*F and the meat is fall apart tender, why do you choose to cook it perhaps up to 210*°*? Why do you prefer to go over the 200 degree mark instead of pulling the brisket at 195°?  I was concerned that by cooking it to 200-202° that I might be overcooking and beginning to dry out the meat. But even at 200° after foiling the brisket I found the bark was much softer than I wanted it to be so starting with the next smoke I'm wrapping it in butcher paper. Another time I might try cooking it with the brisket naked but my family likes the bark on wrapped briskets better.


----------



## SmokinAl

If it were me I would try it at 195 & see if you think that is right for you. 

It will slice better at 195, but be more tender at 200. Maybe somewhere in between is what you will like.

You may also find that one brisket will be tender at 195 & another one won't be tender until 210.

The probe or toothpick test is a good way to tell if it's where you want it.

Al


----------



## daveomak




----------



## daricksta

> Quote:





SmokinAl said:


> If it were me I would try it at 195 & see if you think that is right for you.
> 
> It will slice better at 195, but be more tender at 200. Maybe somewhere in between is what you will like.
> 
> You may also find that one brisket will be tender at 195 & another one won't be tender until 210.
> 
> The probe or toothpick test is a good way to tell if it's where you want it.
> 
> Al


Al, I'm not familiar with the probe or toothpick test. How do you do it? I saw an Aaron Franklin video where he did the hang test: letting a slice hang from one hand and then seeing how easily he could rip the bottom section off with the other. You and Dave bring up a good point about different briskets perhaps needing longer cooking times to reach the same degree of tenderness. My mind tends towards absolutes in some things so if I've decided to pull a brisket at 195-197° IT I do it without regard to its size or the characteristics of that particular cut of meat. But I'm open to different ways of thinking so that's why I'm interested in another way to test for tenderness.


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> You misunderstood......    I set the smoker temp to 200 ish....   The brisket temp will rise to 180-185.....    It needs to hold at that temp for several hours while the collagen breaks down...
> 
> I chose a smoker temp of 200 ish because it's below the boiling point of water.....   Meat will generally get to about 15 degrees below the smoker temp...  I feel evaporative cooling is reduced if the smoker temp is below the boiling point of water...  evaporation still takes place but the pressure of water trying to boil is reduced.....
> 
> Braising meat is done to tenderize it...  braising should NEVER be done in boiling water...  generally accepted temp is below boiling... 180-200..
> 
> I'm just trying to help you understand the physics of meats...
> 
> To reiterate.....    final temp does not determine tenderness...   the time at 180 ish internal temp is what determines tenderness......
> 
> Just trying to answer your question....


I did get confused between cooking temps and IT in your answer so thanks for the clarification. What's your background, Dave? Is it in science or do you just have a lifelong interest in the science behind cooking? I find it very interesting. Generally speaking, smoking books recommend cooking temps between 225-275° but, which I also find interesting, the authors of "Smoke & Spice" recommend smoking temps between 200-210° but they don't give the scientific basis behind it. As for for me, thinking about smoking temps vis-a-vis boiling point of water and evaporative cooling are too much to think about. The way I look at it is that the lower the cooking temp the longer it takes to cook meat to its finish IT and I typically can't get the smoker fired up early enough to ensure the smoke is done before dinner time.

I think in a way the final temp does determine tenderness--operative words being "in a way". If meat tenderizes at 180ish then is seems to me that the temps over 185° would contribute to that tenderness unless the meat is left in the smoker too long and the higher IT causes the meat to be overcooked, which can happen even in a MES.


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## daveomak

Per JJ


----------



## SmokinAl

daRicksta said:


> Al, I'm not familiar with the probe or toothpick test. How do you do it? I saw an Aaron Franklin video where he did the hang test: letting a slice hang from one hand and then seeing how easily he could rip the bottom section off with the other. You and Dave bring up a good point about different briskets perhaps needing longer cooking times to reach the same degree of tenderness. My mind tends towards absolutes in some things so if I've decided to pull a brisket at 195-197° IT I do it without regard to its size or the characteristics of that particular cut of meat. But I'm open to different ways of thinking so that's why I'm interested in another way to test for tenderness.


The probe or toothpick test is simply inserting a probe or toothpick in multiple places all over the brisket.

When the brisket is done the probe or toothpick should go in like it was room temp butter, ie. little to no resistance.

Al


----------



## chef jimmyj

Dave's info is helpful in understanding how meat gets tender. If you have the time to go extra Low and Slow, 200°F, on Intact meat only, you can keep a Brisket Moist and get it Tender. In general, IT is just a good guide to look at the meat harder for tenderness with other methods. Like a Probe Test. Aaron Frinklin kows his Brisket but a Hang Test with a slice is not practical. I would hardly want to pull a Hot Brisket out of my smoker and Slice It to see if the meat is tender. What juices are in there would soon run out all over the board! He is most likely refering to a way to demonstate you nailed the tenderness, rather than an proactive test during a cook...JJ


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> In my MES, I'll smoke meats for up to 4 hours, then up the temp to 200 ish and close the exhaust down to about 10% open....  in 24 hours I pull it out of the smoker....  let it rest for a couple hours and it's done...
> 
> I don't try to hurry meat...     I don't test it for doneness anymore...   given enough time at the correct temperature, the meat is done and it won't dry out...   Internal muscular fat is where flavor and moisture comes from in the meat...


You close the vent to about 10%? I've always left mine wide open because I thought with the reduced airflow the wood pellets in my AMNPS would go out. But having said that, I has a lot of problems with Pitmaster's Choice pellets from a 3 or so year old bag going old during a 3 hour smoke. The weather was cooler on that day. In warmer, sunny weather I usually don't have that problem with older pellets. I saw that MB recommends the vent be closed when cooking meats except for fish or jerky. Do you partially close the vent to keep more heat and moisture inside the MES? I never had a problem with keeping either in with the top vent wide open.

I smoke meats anywhere from 4-11 hours on average, depending on what I'm smoking. And like you, I don't test for doneness. As you said, smoking is just a matter of time and temperature--the amount of time it takes to get meat to your targeted finish IT. I'm also liking that, from what I've been reading in the news, internal muscular fat is not the arteries clogger it was thought to be--in moderation, of course.


----------



## daricksta

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Dave's info is helpful in understanding how meat gets tender. If you have the time to go extra Low and Slow, 200°F, on Intact meat only, you can keep a Brisket Moist and get it Tender. In general, IT is just a good guide to look at the meat harder for tenderness with other methods. Like a Probe Test. Aaron Frinklin kmows his Brisket but a Hang Test with a slice is not practical. I would hardly want to pull a Hot Brisket out of my smoker and Slice It to see if the meat is tender. What juices are in there would soon run out all over the board!...JJ


I know what you mean. I was stupid and unwrapped the brisket since I like to bring it "home" naked just to get the bark texture I want. When I unwrapped the brisket from the foil all the juice spilled out, barely missing me. Good thing I was also wearing gloves so that I could put it back in the smoker right away.

Also, for that hang test, Franklin had smoked 3 briskets using 3 different techniques. The briskets were fully rested so he was able to slice them and hold a slice in his hand without burning his fingers or spilling hot juices everywhere. I'm not going to try that. I can typically tell when I slice a rested brisket if it was done or not.

For me, smoking at 200° would just take too long. I'm typically lucky if I get a brisket on by 9 am. I smoke at 225-235° to keep the heat low but to hopefully ensure a 6 lb. brisket flat will be done by 6-7 pm with still time for it to rest. I rarely get it done early enough to wrap it in foil. cover it with a towel and stick it in a cooler for 2 hours.


----------



## daricksta

SmokinAl said:


> The probe or toothpick test is simply inserting a probe or toothpick in multiple places all over the brisket.
> 
> When the brisket is done the probe or toothpick should go in like it was room temp butter, ie. little to no resistance.
> 
> Al


But doesn't cooking it to at least 195°F IT take care of that--ensuring the brisket is done?


----------



## daricksta

DaveOmak said:


> What's your background, Dave? Is it in science or do you just have a lifelong interest in the science behind cooking?
> 
> What ever I chose to take on, I delve into the why's that make it happen...  Not much point in trying to cook a hunk of meat, and looking for it to be tender, if you don't understand what makes it tender in the first place....  Kind of like reinventing the wheel...  Folks have already figured this stuff out....   That's why BBQ books sell...  First timers check out what others have done...   Some say cook at 275-300.... others say cook at 200-210....    So I read up on the subject and find out why there are 2 schools of thought...  Cooking at 300 is for folks in a hurry...  cooking at 200 is for lazy, old, forgetful folks like myself....   It just don't matter if it's done today...   It'll be done tomorrow...  and it'll be good too....
> 
> Disclaimer....  that doesn't work for bread... I've gotta set a timer for bread....


I envy your freedom of time. For me, smoking time is a compromise. Even though I typically wake up around 4-5 am daily, I'm not ready to face the hassle of setting up my smoker until near 9 am unless I have an important meal planned and need to get the meat inside the smoker by 7 or 8 am--which is rare. I'm usually dealing with no more than a 7 lb. brisket or 2-3 racks of b-back or STL ribs. Whatever I'm smoking is scheduled to be dinner that night so I need to make sure it's done in time, but a few times I've missed the deadline.

There are things that interest me in detail that I'll read up on. Science isn't one of them. I've got lots of grilling and smoking books. I've done online reading and tried out smoking tips I've learned here. My eyes glaze over at all the science and chemical interactions and what happens to components of fat and meat when exposed to heat and to smoke. All I can recall is the basics of how to get a smoke ring in meat. All I really have the attention span for is to read a recipe and to recall techniques like wrapping in foil or butcher paper or leaving the meat naked. From my reading and personal experience I decide on the temp set point and on the finish IT. I have developed my own style but if I come across tweaks that might help I try those out. My favorite smoking temp zone is 225-235° because most smoking meat recipes call for that. I wish I were more like you where when the meat's done it's done. With me, it's always a question of if the meat will be done on time, will the wood pellets stay lit, is the smoker temp at my set point or close to it. Given all this, I'm right proud that I can still produce really good Q in my MES.

I actually prefer grilling with my Weber kettle grill over smoking. For one thing, it's a lot faster. I can lift the lid and instantly see the progress. I don't have to worry about temp swings or the coals going out. While I really like good Q I love the taste of grilled foods. What's nice for me is that I have both a smoker and a grill so I can do both whenever I choose.

As for bread baking, that's my wife's department.


----------



## daveomak




----------



## dv242

daRicksta said:


> I envy your freedom of time. For me, smoking time is a compromise. Even though I typically wake up around 4-5 am daily, I'm not ready to face the hassle of setting up my smoker until near 9 am unless I have an important meal planned and need to get the meat inside the smoker by 7 or 8 am--which is rare. I'm usually dealing with no more than a 7 lb. brisket or 2-3 racks of b-back or STL ribs. Whatever I'm smoking is scheduled to be dinner that night so I need to make sure it's done in time, but a few times I've missed the deadline.
> 
> There are things that interest me in detail that I'll read up on. Science isn't one of them. I've got lots of grilling and smoking books. I've done online reading and tried out smoking tips I've learned here. My eyes glaze over at all the science and chemical interactions and what happens to components of fat and meat when exposed to heat and to smoke. All I can recall is the basics of how to get a smoke ring in meat. All I really have the attention span for is to read a recipe and to recall techniques like wrapping in foil or butcher paper or leaving the meat naked. From my reading and personal experience I decide on the temp set point and on the finish IT. I have developed my own style but if I come across tweaks that might help I try those out. My favorite smoking temp zone is 225-235° because most smoking meat recipes call for that. I wish I were more like you where when the meat's done it's done. With me, it's always a question of if the meat will be done on time, will the wood pellets stay lit, is the smoker temp at my set point or close to it. Given all this, I'm right proud that I can still produce really good Q in my MES.
> 
> I actually prefer grilling with my Weber kettle grill over smoking. For one thing, it's a lot faster. I can lift the lid and instantly see the progress. I don't have to worry about temp swings or the coals going out. While I really like good Q I love the taste of grilled foods. What's nice for me is that I have both a smoker and a grill so I can do both whenever I choose.
> 
> As for bread baking, that's my wife's department.


That about describes me, except that if I'm doing a brisket or pork butt, I put it on the night before. You have to guesstimate the time a bit but 11 pm usually gets you ready to wrap (for brisket) by 7am. Finished by noon or 1pm at 210-225 (IT of 200 for brisket, 203 for butts). Throw in a cooler for 2 or 3 hours to rest, then pull or slice for dinner.

I also have a weber kettle and have started playing around smoking with it using the Slow and Sear, which is a great addition for the kettle. Still working on finding the sweet spot to settle on 225, tough to keep it under 240. I have also had trouble keep the pellets going in my AMNPS this year. Last year, I had no problem getting 12, or very near 12 hours out of a full maze without ever re-starting but this year the pellets are going out frequently. Do they get old or should they be good still if purchased last year? They have been sealed in plastic bags.


----------



## daricksta

DV242 said:


> That about describes me, except that if I'm doing a brisket or pork butt, I put it on the night before. You have to guesstimate the time a bit but 11 pm usually gets you ready to wrap (for brisket) by 7am. Finished by noon or 1pm at 210-225 (IT of 200 for brisket, 203 for butts). Throw in a cooler for 2 or 3 hours to rest, then pull or slice for dinner.
> 
> I also have a weber kettle and have started playing around smoking with it using the Slow and Sear, which is a great addition for the kettle. Still working on finding the sweet spot to settle on 225, tough to keep it under 240. I have also had trouble keep the pellets going in my AMNPS this year. Last year, I had no problem getting 12, or very near 12 hours out of a full maze without ever re-starting but this year the pellets are going out frequently. Do they get old or should they be good still if purchased last year? They have been sealed in plastic bags.


First, I and a number of guys have the same problem with wood pellets going out. I had that problem last Monday when I smoked a beef tenderloin roast. The problem appears to be worse in cooler weather. I also store the wood pellets in their plastic bags. The pellets I used on Monday are about 2-3 years old. Some guys will nuke the pellets for about a minute or so. My wife has suggested vacuum sealing them in a Food Saver bag, something I might try with some of them. The problem with vacuuming wood pellets--like with coffee beans--is that the sharp edges on the ends of the pellets could puncture the vacuum bags. But then again, I've smoked many times with older pellets that performed beautifully.

So that I don't have to look it up, what's the Weber Slow and Sear? I've used wood chips in my Weber and a friend of mine sent me a homemade wood pellet smoker sleeve that I used a couple of times. Tonight I plan to grill a Santa Maria style tri-tip roast. The recipe calls for using wood chunks but I'll be using my AMNT--the A-MAZE-N Tube Smoker inside the Weber to generate the wood smoke. I also bought a Maverick laser gun therm so that I know the temp inside the Weber. The best way to control the heat inside a Weber is to either set up heat/no heat zones or to grill over indirect heat.

I don't ever smoke overnight or when I'm not awake or if I'm away from the house. I have the ET-733 receiver unit at all times so that I can monitor the smoker heat and the meat IT. I also go out to look at the MES to make sure smoke is rising from the top vent. If it isn't, I know the pellets have gone out--again--and I need to re-light them. Also, there have been occasions when MES units spontaneously combusted during a smoke. Not something you want to happen while you're sleeping.


----------

