# Equilibrium Cure Open Question ~  Proper Amount of Cure #1 in a Wet Curing Brine



## thirdeye (Mar 22, 2021)

As St Patrick's Day approached I noticed quite an uptick in articles, forum posts and emails regarding  home-cured corning beef using  equilibrium cure.  I have always subscribed to the formula of:  Weigh the meat, weigh the water and use this *sub-total weight* to calculate the % of salt and sugar. (for example 2% salt and 1% sugar).  Next, add the salt and sugar weights to the meat and water weight for a* total weight*.  Then use 0.25% of the total weight to calculate the amount of Cure #1 and add it* after* you have fully dissolved the salt and sugar in the water.   Going one step further, if I heat the water to dissolve the salt and sugar I do NOT add the Cure #1 until the mixture has cooled back down. 

Being mindful that some online sources are not completely accurate, I found several examples where the weight of salt and sugar were not considered at all when calculating the amount of Cure #1.    Even on a small brine amount, there could easily be 200 grams in salt and sugar weight which would short the Cure #1 amount by 0.5 grams.  Are these folks intentionally omitting salt and sugar weight in order to lessen the amount of Cure #1? 

What do you think is correct?  Or would this be a situation where one way is correct, but the other way is more correct?


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 22, 2021)

Good question! With intact muscle like Brisket the Cure is there for Flavor and Color, 0.001g precision is not necessary. Cure #1 is effective over a Range of concentrations. So whether the Total weight of all ingredients gives 122ppm or 190ppm, it all good. Consider this. The weight of the Water and Meat are important as the Water is the carrier and the meat is the destination...But... How much Cure #1 does the Salt and Sugar absorb?
None, so it has no impact on the water/meat reaching equilibrium...JJ


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## zwiller (Mar 22, 2021)

I think are a few "correct" methods.   I say choose one that clicks for you and stick with it. I think you can drive yourself nuts OCDing about it.


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## thirdeye (Mar 22, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> Good question! With intact muscle like Brisket the Cure is there for Flavor and Color, 0.001g precision is not necessary. Cure #1 is effective over a Range of concentrations. So whether the Total weight of all ingredients gives 122ppm or 190ppm, it all good. Consider this. The weight of the Water and Meat are important as the Water is the carrier and the meat is the destination...But... How much Cure #1 does the Salt and Sugar absorb?
> None, so it has no impact on the water/meat reaching equilibrium...JJ



Sure I'm fine with a slightly lower (or higher)  PPM, but it was my understanding that you need to have the weight of cure against the weight of everything in the bucket and when using 0.25%  of the weight of everything in the bucket you arrive at 156 PPM. 

Using the perfect set of numbers:
1000g meat
500g water
Sub total of 1500g
2% and 1% respectively gives me
30g salt
15 g sugar
Equals 1.545 kg  X 2.5g = 3.86g of Cure #1

Not including the salt and sugar would be:
1.500  X  2.5g = 3.76g of Cure #1

The difference is 0.1g  which I agree is splitting hairs. 



zwiller said:


> I think are a few "correct" methods.   I say choose one that clicks for you and stick with it. I think you can drive yourself nuts OCDing about it.


You're absolutely right I just thought it was odd that when we stopped using a brine testing float and heard about "Equilibrium Curing" the technique included meat, water and ingredients. Now it's meat and water.


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## PolishDeli (Mar 22, 2021)

It helps to really understans the units of measure for this one.  But first note that the acceptable range of cure is quite large, so you have room for error and experimentation.

NaNO2 concentration is usual measured in ppm, right? Since ppm is a weight ratio, by definition the the brine weight should be used. Not the water weight.
But since the brine weight depends on the weight of water, salt, sugar, spices AND cure#1,  the arithmetic gets kinda ugly.

Blonders calculator and Maianskis book both only use the water weight.  USDA uses brine weight. Pop's method doesn't calculate or weight anything. All of those options are fine.

I go overboard.  I use the brine wight;  I also calculate the change in water density and boiling point as a function of salinity.
Is that necessary?  No.
Does it make my cure better than others? No.
It's just how I roll.

If you ask me, the truly "correct" unit for this stuff is mols anyway.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 22, 2021)

chef jimmyj said:


> The weight of the Water and Meat are important as the Water is the carrier and the meat is the destination...But... How much Cure #1 does the Salt and Sugar absorb?
> None, so it has no impact on the water/meat reaching equilibrium...JJ


This is how I have always viewed and applied my curing practices. Sure, the salt and sugar do have weight, but they neither carry cure or absorb it. Salt is necessary for the process, but sugar is not. I only include weight of meat and water (liquid) when calculating my cure amount. I feel this gets me closer to my total target of ppm of cure.


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 22, 2021)

This Cracked me up! That's a whole lot of confusion waiting to happen.


PolishDeli said:


> If you ask me, the truly "correct" unit for this stuff is mols anyway.



Boils down to...Use the method you are comfortable with. Include the Salt, Sugar and Spice or don't. Both methods are valid as long as the amount of Nitrite ends up being within the effective range. You are correct. 0.1g Cure is insignificant. Fun stuff!...JJ


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## thirdeye (Mar 22, 2021)

PolishDeli said:


> It helps to really understans the units of measure for this one.  But first note that the acceptable range of cure is quite large, so you have room for error and experimentation.
> 
> NaNO2 concentration is usual measured in ppm, right? Since ppm is a weight ratio, by definition the the brine weight should be used. Not the water weight.
> But since the brine weight depends on the weight of water, salt, sugar, spices AND cure#1,  the arithmetic gets kinda ugly.
> ...


Ahhh, the term "weight ratio" is a much better description.  And I see your point in that the Cure weight should be included, but that's splitting hairs too. 

I looked in the Marianski book and saw the info on using a brine tester and the brine tables in the appendix.  *Can you site the page number where water weight is discussed?*

Somewhere in my curing notes is some information Pop's posted about the NY State approving the curing brine and technique since it's on the lower end of cure concentration, and needs a longer cure time, and if I recall correctly he  breaks down the PPM and discusses the brine strength in degrees.


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## PolishDeli (Mar 22, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> Can you site the page number where water weight is discussed?



Here's a link:





						The ham has certainly evolved a long way
					

There are bone-in hams, boneless hams, re-formed hams, dry hams, smoked hams, baked hams and hams cooked in water.




					www.meatsandsausages.com
				



Scroll down to section
"Calculation Formula (using % pick-up)"

You're right. He spends a lot of talking about salinity, and brine strength. 
The formula states to use the pickle weight. But if you work the numbers in his example for a 60° SAL, you see he's only using water weight (197ppm for only water at 10%pump. It'd be 164ppm if he had used the pickle weight).
...so maybe it's an error?


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## tallbm (Mar 22, 2021)

chef jimmyj
  explains it very well.

There is a range of cure you want to be in measured in Parts Per Million (PPM).   (chef points out the range of 122PPM to 190PPM)
If you do your calculations based at 156PPM you fall in the middle of the acceptable range for curing your pastrami so if you are over or under by a small amount you still fall well within the cure range of PPM.

So weight the water, weight the meat and calculate cure amount based on 156PPM and you should be good.
If you want to be extra anal you can weigh the water, meat, salt, sugar, seasonings, etc. and calculate cure amount based on 156ppm and again you should be good falling within the desired/acceptable cure range.

If you decide to do many hundreds or thousands of pounds of water and meat for a cure then revisit going more anal to ensure you fall within acceptable range.

FYI a good ratio for equilibrium brine (water + meat weight)  is the following, then tweak to your tastes for more or less salt:

2% salt (if thinner meat I go 1.8%) - means take water + meat weight and x 0.02 to get salt amount
1% sugar - brown or regular
Any seasonings you want or omit
Cure#1 - use a cure #1 calculator set to 156ppm and enter the weight of water + meat (+ salt and sugar if you like but not really necessary unless doing massive amounts)
BUT WAIT there's more!!!
The simplest non-cure brine in the world you can make is an equilibrium brine like above but with 2% salt (or 1.8%).  I do this all the time with whole chickens, whole turkeys, white meat chicken/turkey, and pork loin or tenderloins.
When you pull the meat out of the brine, rinse it off and season with anything EXCEPT salt and grill or smoke away and u get amazing never oversalted brined food that doesnt dry out :D

I hope all this info helps :)


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 22, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> Ahhh, the term "weight ratio" is a much better description.  And I see your point in that the Cure weight should be included, but that's splitting hairs too.
> 
> I looked in the Marianski book and saw the info on using a brine tester and the brine tables in the appendix.  *Can you site the page number where water weight is discussed?*
> 
> Somewhere in my curing notes is some information Pop's posted about the NY State approving the curing brine and technique since it's on the lower end of cure concentration, and needs a longer cure time, and if I recall correctly he  breaks down the PPM and discusses the brine strength in degrees.


Page # 478 Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages. This is a place where he discusses calculating nitrite. He bases this on the green meat weight, but applies it to the brine in the form of percentage of pick up. So pumping 10% of the meat weight has to include the total weight of pickle (including salt and sugar and cure) as the pump weight being 10% of green meat weight, but in his example of 1 gallon water he adds 4.2 Oz of cure making  1973ppm pumped into a 10# butt would give you 197ppm at 10% of the green weight of meat.


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## tallbm (Mar 22, 2021)

That's good info 

 SmokinEdge


I just want to point out for everyone that "Pickle" brining which talks about pump is something quite a bit different than wet equilibrium brining.  Do not make the mistake of thinking they are same thing.

You can sous vide cook something to eat it and you can smoke something to eat it but both are different practices in making something to eat.
Think of Pickle and pump as one method to cure meat just as equilibrium/wet brine is a different way even though they both cure the meat :)


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 22, 2021)

tallbm said:


> That's good info
> 
> SmokinEdge
> 
> ...


True. Marianski says to suppose 4% pick up with just brining. But injecting is a more known value at 7-10% . Indeed much different.


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## Fueling Around (Mar 24, 2021)

Great thread.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2021)

thirdeye

Here is some reading for you if you haven’t already seen it.
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results.181560/


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## thirdeye (Mar 25, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> thirdeye
> 
> Here is some reading for you if you haven’t already seen it.
> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results.181560/


Yes, I have seen that article.  Actually for many years I enjoyed being active on certain forums, some professional, and some hobby related, but I also enjoyed cruising certain forums because of their reputation for reliable information.  Smoking Meat Forums has a lot of great information on home curing and sausage making.

The main take away (for me) was the detailed facts and figures and the discussions surrounding the high strength curing brine verses Pop's Brine.  I found it interesting because I'm just old enough to have been exposed to some the "rules-of-thumb" or "historical methods and practices" that had some supporting evidence, but also had a lot of practical application.  And when I do learn some fact's I'm young enough to accept them and make a change.

I was interested to take note of the increase in liquid weight between 7-day curing brine times and 14-day curing brine times because I like the long cure times and want a tender, moist and savory product.   I was also interested in the conversations  about a "universal curing brine" (as I call them) like Pop's brine verses the high strength "hot curing" brines.  For example, in my world a gallon of curing brine had a low of 1.5 tablespoons of Cure #1  and a high of 4 tablespoons.... but my family used 3 tablespoons as the high limit for safety.  I understood where Pop's recipe was coming from and accepted the fact that it worked.  But the article hinted that Pop's Brine could use a bump in Cure #1, and I can fully understand that too.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> Yes, I have seen that article.  Actually for many years I enjoyed being active on certain forums, some professional, and some hobby related, but I also enjoyed cruising certain forums because of their reputation for reliable information.  Smoking Meat Forums has a lot of great information on home curing and sausage making.
> 
> The main take away (for me) was the detailed facts and figures and the discussions surrounding the high strength curing brine verses Pop's Brine.  I found it interesting because I'm just old enough to have been exposed to some the "rules-of-thumb" or "historical methods and practices" that had some supporting evidence, but also had a lot of practical application.  And when I do learn some fact's I'm young enough to accept them and make a change.
> 
> I was interested to take note of the increase in liquid weight between 7-day curing brine times and 14-day curing brine times because I like the long cure times and want a tender, moist and savory product.   I was also interested in the conversations  about a "universal curing brine" (as I call them) like Pop's brine verses the high strength "hot curing" brines.  For example, in my world a gallon of curing brine had a low of 1.5 tablespoons of Cure #1  and a high of 4 tablespoons.... but my family used 3 tablespoons as the high limit for safety.  I understood where Pop's recipe was coming from and accepted the fact that it worked.  But the article hinted that Pop's Brine could use a bump in Cure #1, and I can fully understand that too.


Yes sir, all great points. I was most impressed with the different uptakes between lean muscle, (loin in this case) and belly. The meatier the piece, the more nitrite potential intake. While this is all scientific, the best part is the artistry, so to say, intelligence guided by experience. Learning what to apply, when and how to apply it. For the most part I have given up on submerged curing in favor of injection (pumping) and dry brining. I feel I can control the final product better. With the exception being pastrami. I get a much more pronounced pickling spice in submerged brining than any other method. This is something I enjoy in only pastrami. The learning really never stops with this hobby, I enjoy that aspect.


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## thirdeye (Mar 25, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Yes sir, all great points. I was most impressed with the different uptakes between lean muscle, (loin in this case) and belly. The meatier the piece, the more nitrite potential intake. While this is all scientific, the best part is the artistry, so to say, intelligence guided by experience. Learning what to apply, when and how to apply it. For the most part I have given up on submerged curing in favor of injection (pumping) and dry brining. I feel I can control the final product better. With the exception being pastrami. I get a much more pronounced pickling spice in submerged brining than any other method. This is something I enjoy in only pastrami. The learning really never stops with this hobby, I enjoy that aspect.


Yes, the uptake *was* something to consider.   I'm with you  in that I had moved to dry curing (even jerky) with the exception of corning beef or pork  and hocks and shanks.... and I do a combination cure on those, injecting and a cover brine.  Then last year I started doing the 

 daveomak
  injectable cure on loins, picnics and butts and think that method will stay in my arsenal for a good long while.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2021)

Agree, Dave’s ham recipe is pure gold! I am still playing with a dry cure ham recipe, but when I want to please family or friends, I always turn to Dave’s ham, for now.


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## daveomak (Mar 26, 2021)

I looked at all the methods for curing whole muscle meats over the years and decided I wanted to be sure of the nitrite, and other ingredients, concentration inside what I was curing, and I wanted it to be uniform...   Not relying on "migration" of the ingredients for uniformity is why I developed  my home method of "stitch" pumping...
With all humility, and a bit of S.W.A.G. (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess), I think I hit the mark pretty close..
I still use the recipe today...  
I get a certain amount of pleasure from those folk that "praise" it's use..  Thank you..  I do need to crack a small smile periodically...  That's what it's all about...  Helping others on this forum... 

 Dave


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## thirdeye (Mar 26, 2021)

daveomak said:


> I looked at all the methods for curing whole muscle meats over the years and decided I wanted to be sure of the nitrite, and other ingredients, concentration inside what I was curing, and I wanted it to be uniform...   Not relying on "migration" of the ingredients for uniformity is why I developed  my home method of "stitch" pumping...
> With all humility, and a bit of S.W.A.G. (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess), I think I hit the mark pretty close..
> I still use the recipe today...
> I get a certain amount of pleasure from those folk that "praise" it's use..  Thank you..  I do need to crack a small smile periodically...  That's what it's all about...  Helping others on this forum...
> ...


Have you done any "stitch" pumping experimentation with corning  beef roasts?  Specifically with the base liquid itself?  When I've used a combination cover brine & injection,  I simmer my brine the day before, then chill overnight and add Cure #1.  But eliminating the cover brine is something to think about.

Would a good starting place be to substitute the same amount of  a pickling spice brine (broth) in place of the vegetable broth...., and keep the AmesPhos, salt, sugar, and Cure #1 the same?


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## daveomak (Mar 27, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> Have you done any "stitch" pumping experimentation with corning  beef roasts?  Specifically with the base liquid itself?  When I've used a combination cover brine & injection,  I simmer my brine the day before, then chill overnight and add Cure #1.  But eliminating the cover brine is something to think about.
> 
> Would a good starting place be to substitute the same amount of  a pickling spice brine (broth) in place of the vegetable broth...., and keep the AmesPhos, salt, sugar, and Cure #1 the same?



What a great idea !!!   I have a "corned beef" in the freezer now...   When the ambition strikes, I will try it...


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## thirdeye (Mar 27, 2021)

daveomak said:


> What a great idea !!!   I have a "corned beef" in the freezer now...   When the ambition strikes, I will try it...


Dialing in the flavor of the corning broth will be the hard part.  Most corning brines have some or all of these:  salt, pepper (white, black red),garlic, crushed bay leaves, allspice, mustard seeds (yellow and brown), cinnamon, ginger, cardamom, coriander, allspice, dill and nutmeg.  

We buy pickling spice from Penzey's  and they sent a free sample of their Corned Beef seasoning.  The ingredients are the same, but they are in a slightly different order, for example coriander appears earlier on the Corned Beef seasoning.

For the injectable  brine/broth I'm wondering about starting with pickling spice  since that mixture is already proven to be popular, then bumping the amount of several things from the list I really want to stand out.  Garlic and coriander would be two examples especially if I was going to use the corned beef for pastrami.  Once the brine/broth is simmering it would be easy enough to make adjustments.   Water would be the logical liquid, but would it be out of line to use a mild beef stock or Au jus base?


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## daveomak (Mar 28, 2021)

I'm thinking "Beer" for a base liquid....
An American lager...  Not too much of an overpowering flavor profile.....


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## thirdeye (Mar 28, 2021)

daveomak said:


> I'm thinking "Beer" for a base liquid....
> An American lager...  Not too much of an overpowering flavor profile.....


I'm liking this thinking.  

Apparently the alcohol in beer is an acceptable ingredient. An NCHFP reference:
*2.4. Combination Curing*
Some current recipes for curing have vinegar, citrus juice, or alcohol as ingredients for flavor. Addition of these chemicals in sufficient quantities can contribute to the preservation of the food being cured.

*2.5. Flavor of Cured Meats*
Besides preservation, the process of curing introduces both a desired flavor and color. Cured meat flavor is thought to be a composite result of the flavors of the curing agents and those developed by bacterial and enzymatic action.


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