# Why do my burgers suck?



## bgaviator (Feb 9, 2018)

For the life of me I can't make a good burger!  It would seem like such a simple thing, right?  Yet it seems so difficult for me to achieve.  I keep studying various web sites about how to make a good burger.  Some tips I've implemented, others I have yet to engage in.

I just got in the cast iron griddle accessory for my Kamado Joe.  I figured that was one thing that might be missing from my technique.  I've always just cooked on the regular grates before, but I never got a good crust.  I used it tonight for the first time hoping to get a good crust. Well, my wife having bought preformed patties from Kroger, they were very thin.  So I had to flip them I think quicker than would allow for the crust to form.  
The little crust areas that had formed were a nasty brown looking color rather than a nice dark char that I would want to see. 
I had the grill holding around 450 degrees, preheated for an hour before the cook.  

She also bought patties that were 90/10 fat content, and they were Sirloin patties.  I was upset when I saw what she had bought.  I know the general rule is 80/20, and that chuck makes the best burgers it seems.  But I didn't really specify to her, so it's not her fault.  

I also tend to season with only fresh ground pepper and fresh ground salt.  Is this the way to go with seasoning, or do most good burger places use something more bold?  

I did use my Thermapen to check internal temp.  I got most of them pulled at 150 degrees, but one showed 170.  They were all completely gray and on the drier side.  I imagine if I would have used thicker patties this may have been less an issue?

So in order to rectify the burger situation, I bought the cast iron griddle.  I just bought a burger press so I can start making my own patties.  I've also contemplated grinding my own meat.  I've always been skeptical if this would make a huge difference, but at this point after repeated disappointment, I'm willing to give it a try.  I do have a Kitchenaid stand mixer that I could get a grinder attachment for, but I also read you can use a food processor, which I already have.  

What would be the meat to choose?  Just buy a chuck roast with good marbling and call it a day?  Or do you have to get into mixing blends of different meats? 

So aside from grinding my own meat and forming bigger patties, does anyone have any additional tips to add?  I'd love to be able to crank out a consistent great burger that rivals my favorite restaurants.  Thanks


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## indaswamp (Feb 9, 2018)

Buy ground meat 80/20 and make your own patties. I personally believe a really great burger needs a little pork in it.
MY burger recipe:
4# 80/20 beef chuck
2# ground pork butt
2 eggs
3~4 TBSPS Cajun seasoning or more to taste(Tony's, Slap Ya Mama, etc...)
1 TBSP hot sauce
2 TBSPS worchestershire sauce
1/2 small onion fine dice

and here is the really important part.....

1/2~1 cup of either crushed club crackers or bread crumbs...this will keep the burgers moist! It will absorb the juice as the burgers cook!

mix well in a SS bowl until the meat gets tacky, form into burgers and grill....


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## motocrash (Feb 9, 2018)

Here's a pertinent thread.
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/calling-all-meatheads-custom-burger-grind.270781/


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## bgaviator (Feb 9, 2018)

Interesting about the pork....hadn't heard of that one.  I know I've seen some recommendations before about chuck mixed with brisket.  I don't want to get too carried away though.  I'm trying to keep it simple.  Plus I can imagine buying different meat cuts to grind yourself can get kind of pricey.  Especially since I'd only want to be doing small amounts at any given time.  I'm only cooking burgers for 2.

I saved an article awhile back that had a bunch of pro tips for burgers.  One was to add a little Fish Sauce (seems weird, right?).  But the article said it actually enhances the beef flavor.  It also suggested adding a little high fat mayo, like Duke's brand.


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## indaswamp (Feb 9, 2018)

bgaviator said:


> One was to add a little Fish Sauce (seems weird, right?). But the article said it actually enhances the beef flavor.



That's why I add Worcestershire sauce. 

I usually pre-make (12) 1/2lb. burgers, cook what we will eat that night, then freeze the rest.


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## PerazziMx14 (Feb 9, 2018)

Please delete


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## SmokinAl (Feb 9, 2018)

I buy Angus 80/20, use Montreal steak seasoning & cook them in a cast iron pan in bacon grease. I do it on the side burner of my gas grill, cause it will splatter a bit & make a mess on your stove top.
Put Swiss or provolone cheese on top at the last minute. We like ours med/rare, so if your checking IT, then you would want to pull them out at 130-135.
Al


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## Braz (Feb 9, 2018)

A common mistake is working the meat too much while forming the patties. Work it just enough to hold together and put a thumbprint dimple in the center of the patty.


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## crazzycajun (Feb 9, 2018)

If the wife gets preformed patties which I hate I repattie with salt,pepper,garlic whorchestier


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## old sarge (Feb 9, 2018)

Buy a brisket and/or chuck roast. Trim EXCESSIVE fat and grind your own. Maybe add some bacon to the grind. Comes out great if you stick to a 75/25 or 80/20 ratio.


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## Bearcarver (Feb 9, 2018)

The only times I ever eat pre-formed, store made Burgers is at Picnics, and I have yet to eat one that wasn't wanting.

When I'm not mixing my Venison, Beef, & Pork for Deerburgers, I just use 80/20 Beef, and They're Great !! We also add about 2 or 3 TBS of Worcestershire Sauce to each pound of Beef.

Bear


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## idahopz (Feb 9, 2018)

I'm on board with grinding your own - quite often as cheap or cheaper than purchasing ground beef. I've ground these so far as testers:

Ribeye
New York
Brisket
Tri-tip
Chuck
I've stopped making ground ribeye and New York mainly because my missus does not like them as much as the tri-tip, and these days they are more expensive than years ago when I could get boneless ribeye at C&C for $4.99/lb. I can get brisket, tri-tip, or chuck for less than $3.00/lb on sale, which is cheaper than ground beef in my area.

Of all the types, my wife says the tri-tip is by far the best, and I tend to agree. I've also tried mixing other meats like pork sausage, ground turkey, freshly ground pork, but the wife does not appear to like the dilution of the beef umami. "Keep it simple" she says, and gives a Pavlovian drool every time I mention making tri-tip burgers. The key to success is having the right amount of fat.

I tend to use Montreal steak seasoning because it is so readily available, but I'll also use Old Stockyard, and will mix in the seasoning when I grind the meat just before vacuum packaging.

I think the bottom line is that you'll likely find as many excellent recipes and methods as there are guys making burgers, so you'll eventually find what you and your friends/family like best.


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## meatsweats86 (Feb 9, 2018)

Have you ever had a burger from Smash Burger, 5 Guys or Shake Shake?  I used to grill burgers and they were always just ok. Now I do smash burgers on my cast iron pan or my blackstone flat top. If you do it on cast iron in the house, make sure you have the window open and fan on.

If you like a good thin crispy/greasy burger watch the video below. I season burgers with Lawry's Seasoning salt and make his sauce. I wont go out for burgers anymore.


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## myownidaho (Feb 9, 2018)

I buy half a steer every year and the ground beef is around 90/10. I make 3/4” thick patties and cook them on a smoking hot grill(500-600). I flip once and cook to medium rare. If you want a uniform crust, CI will be your best bet. Not many people have a flat top to cook on. Make sure it’s really hot and only flip once.


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## old sarge (Feb 9, 2018)

A Lodge cast iron griddle spanning two burnersbon a gas range will work very well in lieu of a flat top.


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## meatsweats86 (Feb 9, 2018)

old sarge said:


> A Lodge cast iron griddle spanning two burnersbon a gas range will work very well in lieu of a flat top.


Yes in deed. I love using cast iron except  I convinced the wife to let me buy the 36" Blackstone griddle for the garage because I would set off the smoke detector every time we did smash burgers in the house.


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## zwiller (Feb 9, 2018)

myownidaho said:


> I cook them on a smoking hot grill



+1;  Most grills aren't gonna get hot enough stock.  It wasn't until I added sear burner than I started to get the results I wanted.  My grilling quality went up like tenfold.  No idea what it actually is but I'd say easily beyond 1k and 2-3x hotter than a stock grill. 

Never ground my own yet but have a hard time thinking it makes a difference.  Different cuts maybe.  I have tried lots of stuff over the years and anytime I added stuff to meat prior to forming it just wasn't the result we wanted.  I make a rub of equal parts SPG and msg/accent and liberally season the patty and grill.  Seriously, medium burger is 2m on the sear burner.  I close the lid (mostly since it is insanely smokey) but do not move away.  I stand and count to 30s and flip.  30s and flip 4 times total, I like crosshatches... 

http://aht.seriouseats.com/2010/03/the-burger-labs-top-ten-tips-for-better-burgers.html


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## myownidaho (Feb 9, 2018)

zwiller said:


> +1;  Most grills aren't gonna get hot enough stock.  It wasn't until I added sear burner than I started to get the results I wanted.  My grilling quality went up like tenfold.  No idea what it actually is but I'd say easily beyond 1k and 2-3x hotter than a stock grill.
> 
> Never ground my own yet but have a hard time thinking it makes a difference.  Different cuts maybe.  I have tried lots of stuff over the years and anytime I added stuff to meat prior to forming it just wasn't the result we wanted.  I make a rub of equal parts SPG and msg/accent and liberally season the patty and grill.  Seriously, medium burger is 2m on the sear burner.  I close the lid (mostly since it is insanely smokey) but do not move away.  I stand and count to 30s and flip.  30s and flip 4 times total, I like crosshatches...
> 
> http://aht.seriouseats.com/2010/03/the-burger-labs-top-ten-tips-for-better-burgers.html



I've got a Weber Summit but not the one with the searing burner. I can still get to 600+. As for cross hatches, there's enough cheese on my burgers you're not going to see any cross hatches. :D


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## tallbm (Feb 9, 2018)

I think some great suggestions have been provided to this point.
In something like this I usually recommend simplicity.

My simple approach for you would be:


Buy you some 80/20 ground meat but NOT in the tube, get meat that is on a foam tray if available
Put the meat into a big bowl
Season the meat with Black Pepper, Garlic powder (granulated preferred), Onion powder (granulated or minced/dehydrated preferred), mix the seasoning in and repeat until well seasoning
Form Large patties (thicker/bigger is easier to practice with than thin patties)
IMPORTANT: Before throwing on the grill add Salt to the patties.  Mixing in salt earlier makes the proteins bind up and you get a firm dense chunk of meat for a patty rather than the proper burger texture.
I often salt the tops while they are on a tray and then throw them on the grill salt side down and then add salt to the unseasoned side of the patties that are now facing upwards while on the grill :)
Cook to your liking.

Now for your Charred outside I'm not sure what to do because I don't really look for a char or crispness to my burger, BUT I would imagine a screaming hot grill would do this for you.  Again with a large/thick patty it is more forgiving so you don't overcook the inside while trying to char/crisp the outside.

In short, Large patties, mix Pepper, Garlic, Onion powders into the meat and then make the patties, add salt at the end and cook to your liking.  Do this and the flavor will be amazing everytime with basically no effort and then you can perfect your cooking and crisping techniques :)

I hope this helps :)


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## old sarge (Feb 9, 2018)

zwiller said:


> Never ground my own yet but have a hard time thinking it makes a difference. Different cuts maybe.



I grind so that I know that it all came from the same critter. Seriously, nothing wrong with store bought hamburger or ground pork or chicken or turkey. But knowing that you are making a burger or meatloaf or whatever from one piece of meat from one animal rather than scraps from several, and generally doing so for less money than buying ready ground is kind of satisfying.  We do the same for pork, chicken and turkey. It gets weighed/packaged in 1 lb +/- vacpacks, labeled and frozen.


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## johnmeyer (Feb 9, 2018)

To echo a few comments:

1. Definitely grind your own. MUCH better flavor. 

2. 450 doesn't sound hot enough to me. I can get my old Weber Genesis to about 550, and even that isn't hot enough. 

3. Do add a little salt before cooking, but nothing else. It is more for the cooking chemistry than the flavor. If you want seasoning, add that when serving, along with the condiments and toppings.


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## chopsaw (Feb 9, 2018)

Well ,, my add would be this . I hold seasoned Burgers under vacuum in a 8 x 8 canister . Might be 1 hour or could be up to whatever waiting for kids to get home . For me the vac is a game changer . Burgers come out full of flavor , and moist 
Store bought 80/20 .


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## johnmeyer (Feb 10, 2018)

Vacuum? I'm intrigued. 

I've used the vac when marinading and the claim is that is "opens up" the meat fibers so you get quicker penetration of the marinade. This gets the marinading step done more quickly. I think it works, but I've never done a side-by-side vac/no-vac test, so I don't know for sure.

But I wonder how this changes things when making burgers? I could see how it too would open up the meat a little so maybe that's the secret.

It is simple enough that I'll give it a try the next time I grind some meat for burgers. Thanks for the idea!


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## chopsaw (Feb 10, 2018)

johnmeyer said:


> Vacuum? I'm intrigued.
> 
> I've used the vac when marinading and the claim is that is "opens up" the meat fibers so you get quicker penetration of the marinade. This gets the marinading step done more quickly. I think it works, but I've never done a side-by-side vac/no-vac test, so I don't know for sure.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's all in my head ,, 
The first time I did it I used a wet teriyaki marinade , held under vac for about 3 hrs . When I took them out , they were so soft I could not lift them . Used a spatula and put them on foil , grill til firm then put straight on grill and charred them up . Came out great . 
Last night I used a dry store bought burger seasoning . Vac'd about 4 hours . Again came out great . 
Don't ask me why , just seems to work . If you try it let me know what you think .


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## old sarge (Feb 10, 2018)

I have a hard time thinking about  vacuum marinading ground anything.  But I can and do mix in a little liquid flavor by hand.  Most of the 'flavor' manifests itself when the sugars in the marinade get a taste of heat and start to glaze.


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## chopsaw (Feb 10, 2018)

old sarge said:


> I have a hard time thinking about  vacuum marinading ground anything.  But I can and do mix in a little liquid flavor by hand.  Most of the 'flavor' manifests itself when the sugars in the marinade get a taste of heat and start to glaze.


I bought my kids a book on restaurant copy cat recipes . I was following a recipe for a teriyaki burger . Not my idea , was in the book .


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## old sarge (Feb 10, 2018)

If it's in the book, it has to be A-OK!  Thanks.


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## GaryHibbert (Feb 10, 2018)

I keep my burgers pretty simple.  2 pounds of hamburger from Costco (85/15), 1 pkg of Liptons Chicken Noodle Soup--just the flavoring not the noodles.  Mix it all together by hand.  Form the patties about 1 1/2 inches thick, and put that dimple on the top so they don't turn out like balls.  Cracked black pepper and garlic powder on the top.  NO salt, there's enough in the soup mix.  Then into the smoker at 240* with hickory or pecan until done.  There's no crust, but OMG are they good.
Gary


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## bgaviator (Feb 10, 2018)

I can get my Kamado Joe to 1,000 degrees I bet if I needed to..


johnmeyer said:


> To echo a few comments:
> 
> 1. Definitely grind your own. MUCH better flavor.
> 
> ...


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## bgaviator (May 4, 2018)

Just as a follow up to this thread...

A couple weeks ago I made burgers again and made some changes.  Based on an article I had saved about making better burgers, I added some fish sauce to the meat and duke's mayo to the meat the night before.  
I also formed the patties using my new burger press.  This press makes thick patties, at half lb of meat each.
I also got fresh ground chuck from the butcher counter at Kroger.  I know it was fresh cause I actually had to wait on the butcher to grind it since it was first thing in the morning.

I seared the burgers on the KJ at around 600 degrees on the cast iron griddle accessory I bought.  I pulled the burgers off when my thermo was registering when they should have been medium well, but once we bit into the burgers, they were still pretty raw.  Not sure what happened there.  I had to throw them back on the grill for a minute.  
But the flavor was MUCH better on these burgers doing all these things.  I used smoked gouda cheese and thick cut pepper bacon on the burgers too.  The bacon really wasn't to my liking.  I think I would have preferred a smoked bacon as opposed to the pepper bacon.  And the gouda, while a good cheese on its own, was just to blah for the burgers.  The burgers definitely needed a stronger tasting cheese, like a sharp cheddar.  All in all I was much happier with the results.

I also recently discovered a new local butcher shop that's been getting rave reviews.  They sell a ground burger blend made from ribeye and short rib.  I may give that a try next!  A little pricey though at $8.99/lb


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## tallbm (May 4, 2018)

bgaviator said:


> Just as a follow up to this thread...
> 
> A couple weeks ago I made burgers again and made some changes.  Based on an article I had saved about making better burgers, I added some fish sauce to the meat and duke's mayo to the meat the night before.
> I also formed the patties using my new burger press.  This press makes thick patties, at half lb of meat each.
> ...



Sounds like you found some things that work for you!
Yeah Gouda can be a funny one to work with.  Sharp cheddar or Colby Jack are usually good ones to rock on a burger.  Swiss with mushrooms and then don't be afraid to use provolone for basically anything since it's sooooooo good :)

Keep on working those burgers.  I'm sure you'll find a number of methods that work including a method that allows you to slap it together quickly and throw on the grill whenever you want a burger! :)


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## Binford 6100 (May 6, 2018)

I am surprised no one is suggesting butter burgers.
A few ways to make them, but my go to is to wrap a chunk of butter in each burger and then top with some Webber Chicago seasoning or Penzey's Chicago seasoning.
Then they go into a cast iron pan with Bacon grease.
Perfect every time.
I like to play around with different mixes of meat and stuff like that, but then I don't consider it a burger any more.
I also grind my own. Buy a meat grinder, you can get a decent one for around 50-80 bucks at a hunting store. That food processor will never work as well as you want it to. I never worry about what my exact ratio is. Just do an eyeball 80-20/75-25 mix. I don't think it matters much on a flat top.


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## bgaviator (May 31, 2018)

Well....my burgers STILL suck in my opinion.  I've gotten slightly better, but still not to my liking.  I've been mixing in a little fish sauce and Duke's mayo to my 80/20 chuck that I get from the butcher counter.  I have been making into thick patties using my burger press. I think they are coming in close to 1/2 lb each.  
Based on numerous articles I've read, they always seem to suggest just using 80/20 chuck, and seasoning with salt & pepper only.  My burgers still are very flavorless though despite doing all these tips.

I've also been finding that with the real thick patties, I've been typically cooking on my KJ between 500-600 degrees on the gauge.  I have the flat cast iron half moon accessory that I cook on.  Since the burgers are so thick, by the time they get done internally, I've almost completely burnt the outside of the burgers and you can taste that in the final product.

I also think by me adding the fish sauce and mayo, since I then have to work that into the meat, that the meat is getting too dense.  I've read numerous articles that say you should essentially just press the meat into shape enough to where it will hold.  I'm just not sure I can add the mayo and fish sauce if I don't work it in.  

Burgers may just be one of those things I need to give up on and leave it to the pros at restaurants.  I seem to spend almost as much money buying everything myself, only to end up disappointed.


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## johnmeyer (May 31, 2018)

I'm not a fan of the fish sauce idea. Cook's Illustrated created a lot of recipes for meat where they claimed that fish sauce provided more intense meat flavors, but for me, it just added a fishy taste.

I've been playing around with a lot of blends and the other night decided I wanted some burgers, but had run out of boneless shortribs and oxtail, which were two things I was adding to my flap meat (it's a beef cut). So, I just went with plain flap meat, which several sources have recommended as a good cut to use all by itself if you don't want to blend meats. I like it much better than chuck.

I got the best results of anything I have tried so far!

I get my flap meat at Costco. I grind it using the course plate on my KitchenAid grinder attachment. I add a very small amount of salt and grill on my Weber Genesis gas grill for four minutes on one side and three minutes (or less) on the other side.

I don't know if I can duplicate this result, but if I can, I will be in hamburger heaven the rest of my life.


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## bgaviator (May 31, 2018)

Grinding my own meat and different blends is just getting way too involved for me.  I'm trying to keep it simple.  If I'm gonna get that in depth then I'll just head to a restaurant where at least I can send it back if it's screwed up.


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## Bearcarver (May 31, 2018)

bgaviator said:


> Well....my burgers STILL suck in my opinion.  I've gotten slightly better, but still not to my liking.  I've been mixing in a little fish sauce and Duke's mayo to my 80/20 chuck that I get from the butcher counter.  I have been making into thick patties using my burger press. I think they are coming in close to 1/2 lb each.
> Based on numerous articles I've read, they always seem to suggest just using 80/20 chuck, and seasoning with salt & pepper only.  My burgers still are very flavorless though despite doing all these tips.
> 
> I've also been finding that with the real thick patties, I've been typically cooking on my KJ between 500-600 degrees on the gauge.  I have the flat cast iron half moon accessory that I cook on.  Since the burgers are so thick, by the time they get done internally, I've almost completely burnt the outside of the burgers and you can taste that in the final product.
> ...




Just for once, forget about Fish Sauce & Mayo---These are Burgers!
Just add 2 to 3 TBS of Worcestershire Original per pound of 80/20 Beef. See how that is.

Bear


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## SmokinVOLfan (May 31, 2018)

Keep it simple don't worry about grinding your own meat. I like 85/15 and try to buy a grass fed or organic beef. You can get it in the plastic baggie type wrappers in the meat section for $5.99 lb.  I seem to get better results there.  What bear said add a little Worcestershire sauce or some low sodium Dales to it. Then just SPG. Make about 1/3 lb pound patties with the thumb print in the middle. When done melt sharp cheddar on top.

Or if you want something different do it with Cajun seasoning and boursin cheese.

Just keep trying. Luckily its not an expensive thing to keep doing until you get it to your liking


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## zwiller (May 31, 2018)

Timely bump...  Ate a left over burger from the weekend last night.   Made these with phosphate and really like it.  

I judge homebrew and it is actually quite a bit of effort to produce something on par with the pros but that doesn't keep many from claiming otherwise.  That is, until it is judged...  

What burger you aiming for?  We prefer smash burger over grilled...  Pretty easy to nail too.


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## Binford 6100 (May 31, 2018)

SmokinVOLfan said:


> Keep it simple don't worry about grinding your own meat. I like 85/15 and try to buy a grass fed or organic beef. You can get it in the plastic baggie type wrappers in the meat section for $5.99 lb.  I seem to get better results there.  What bear said add a little Worcestershire sauce or some low sodium Dales to it. Then just SPG. Make about 1/3 lb pound patties with the thumb print in the middle. When done melt sharp cheddar on top.
> 
> Or if you want something different do it with Cajun seasoning and boursin cheese.
> 
> Just keep trying. Luckily its not an expensive thing to keep doing until you get it to your liking



85/15?
Grass fed?
The dude wants good tasting burgers!
He didn't ask for a healthier burger.


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## RiversideSm0ker (May 31, 2018)

I find buying 80/20 from Sam's and just making balls that I smush into patties works great. From time to time I toss some rub or something in them but nothing at all works just fine. I do always use the thumb print to keep them from ballooning but other than that, burgers are pretty simple. Just don't burn them. Stand over them and be vigilant. That's about it. My wife and I love burgers and they are almost always better than anything you can get from a restaurant. Not sure what to suggest. I would just stick to Five Guys if you don't feel that you get the best results from your own grill. I don't care fo the griddle type burger. I prefer my burgers with some flame char. Not crispy or anything but just that little bit of char that tells you it was on the grill. 

George


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## SmokinVOLfan (May 31, 2018)

Binford 6100 said:


> 85/15?
> Grass fed?
> The dude wants good tasting burgers!
> He didn't ask for a healthier burger.



Hell I'm all up for 80/20. If it was up to my wife we would have dry 93/7 burgers! Have to compromise somewhere. Grass fed beef just tastes better in my opinion.


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## troutman (May 31, 2018)

johnmeyer said:


> I'm not a fan of the fish sauce idea. Cook's Illustrated created a lot of recipes for meat where they claimed that fish sauce provided more intense meat flavors, but for me, it just added a fishy taste.



I wanted to speak to the fish sauce thing a little bit.  The idea behind using fish sauce is not to marinade or spice up the meat, the concept is a faux or mock dry aging effect.  The idea is to use a very small amount, like a couple of tablespoons per pound of say steak, let that marinade in a sealed bag in the fridg for up to 3 days.  When the meat comes out it doesn't have the fishy aroma left, and does produce the appearance and more intensified taste of dry age beef.  You then cook it like any other steak.  I have not tried it personally, I use Umai bags and go through the 30 day process, but guys I know who have say its very close to dry aging.  In this case, and for burgers, it's not the right application.

I'm also a bit surprised, I read through the entire thread, that nobody commented on the cooking temperature approaching 170* and the meat completely gray.  Even at 150*, that's way too well done, at least for my taste.  Meat protein begins to breakdown and completely dry out in a burger at those temperatures, thus a dry lifeless burger.  Like steak, I want mine rare to medium rare and no more than 140*.  That's going to cook to the safe zone (if that's a worry) and retain moisture.  Try that on your next burgers and see if that helps.


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## RiversideSm0ker (May 31, 2018)

I agree with troutman. If the burger is gray, it's done. There is no amount of sauce that will save that puppy. You have to keep some juice in your burgers. I do a medium rare on mine. I don't use pre made patties if I can avoid them. If I do use them I know from the outset that they are just going to be passable. They will only take 5-7 minutes total to cook. You can dry those out in a heartbeat. If you form your own patties out of standard 80/20 I just don't see a reason why you wouldn't come out with a pretty tasty burger. Just so long as you don't walk away and let them burn. You should be good. 

George


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## troutman (May 31, 2018)

I did want to add a disclaimer to the cooking temps.  USDA recommends that you cook burger meat to 165* IT.  That's due to the handling and processing of the meat in the factory setting and increased potential for bacterial contamination.  I generally either grind my own meat or have a trusted butcher grind it for me. Like others have said, I use no less than 80% lean and prefer mine from the chuck or the brisket for optimum flavor and fat content.


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## zwiller (May 31, 2018)

Never ate there but 5 Guys is a smash burger.  I assumed BG is talking the big thick tavern or pub style burger that is grilled and tastes like a steak.  Smash is like 3-4oz and pub is gonna be 8-10oz.  One key to my pub burger besides the extreme high heat is a rest in the oven set at 170F.  I'd say at least 30m but often times much more.  LOTS of carryover heat from a hot grill that will finish the interior.  Going back to high heat...  Go look up some of the fancy steak places and pubs and you will find they are using a salamander which is a high temp broiler.  A sear burner does the same and a typical grill ain't gonna cut it.


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## RiversideSm0ker (May 31, 2018)

I'm certain that the best solution to this is for all of us to head out to BG's and have him cook us burgers and then while we are there with a bucket of 80/20 we come up with the perfect solution through trial and error. Practice makes perfect right? Let's do this!

George


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## Binford 6100 (May 31, 2018)

I agree that a medium rare burger is best. Unless it's a smash Burger. 

I don't know about that whole fish sauce thing. But I'll mix in some Worcestershire sauce and always salt and pepper both sides on a pub style. A smash Burger only needs light seasoning on one side.


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## tallbm (May 31, 2018)

I prescribe to the simplicity approach and then working up from there.

Simply:


Get a pound of ground meat (80/20 or a little leaner if you like)
Start by making 3 patties about 1/2 inch in thickness then mush about a 1inch diameter divet/dent in the middle of the patties after they are made
Season patties with Salt, Pepper, Onion, Garlic to immediately cook
Immediately throw on a hot grill or pan or whatever after seasoning, do not wait!
Cook to your liking (medium, well, etc. etc.).  A general rule of thumb I learned is to cook for about 2-3 min then flip and cook for 2 min or so and then press down on patties with a spatchula when the liquid runs clear (as in without blood)  then they are ready if not cook a little longer and then press test them again.
That will give you a simple simple simple process and a fantastic simple seasoning/flavor for a GREAT foundation for burger making.
After this is about perfected begin to then tweak any of the 5 steps to your liking and see what improves the burger and what does not.

This is basically the way to learn to cook a burger.  Everything else with move involved steps or process, combination of flavors and seasonings, and whatever you can think of is just making the burger your own specific way :)

I've done this simple process with great success even on pure ground Venison (99% lean)!
I personally have my own tweaks but the simple steps above will never steer you wrong and it's easy to get back to a good foundational burger should any tweaks get out of hand :)


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## browneyesvictim (May 31, 2018)

I am just amazed by this thread. I mean burgers are just meant to be simple and uncomplicated. Don't get me wrong, I've been watching... in expectation to learn something new as I often do here on SMF. But the biggest thing sticking out in my mind is that everyone has their own idea of what a great burger is. There are several styles, and I like each one in their own rite. I like thin crispy sliders, but is just different- and just as good as a thick grill burger. However, that same grind will have a different texture, So what do you want? Hand formed patties, a press, or just the bottom of a plate work just as well no matter how thick you make them. Season before or after?  There is no wrong answer! For me, I will agree that simple is best.

Now Salisbury Steak on the other hand...


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## Bearcarver (May 31, 2018)

I never take a Temp reading, but I always try to keep some pink in the center when I remove them.
I actually forgot to cut one in half to show it on this batch (below), but they all had some Pink left in there.
Not dripping in blood, but nice Pink centers:
Memorial Day Deerburgers:
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/memorial-day-deerburgers.276013/

Bear


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## old sarge (May 31, 2018)

Burgers suck?  Have a beer and get over it.  Really suck?  Have two more beers and send out for pizza!


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## bgaviator (May 31, 2018)

I had one...ONE on my first cook get to 170. The others temped at 150 per my first post. Since I’ve been making thicker burgers since that first post I have been not over cooking them.


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## bgaviator (May 31, 2018)

I’ve been getting my Kamado up to 500-600 degrees and preheating the cast iron griddle plate in it. But with the thicker burgers this last time, the burgers were starting to burn before the insides were done. 

On the fish sauce, I got that tip plus the Duke’s mayo tip from the same article. 

https://www.washingtonian.com/2015/07/02/the-15-step-absolutely-perfect-burger/



zwiller said:


> Never ate there but 5 Guys is a smash burger.  I assumed BG is talking the big thick tavern or pub style burger that is grilled and tastes like a steak.  Smash is like 3-4oz and pub is gonna be 8-10oz.  One key to my pub burger besides the extreme high heat is a rest in the oven set at 170F.  I'd say at least 30m but often times much more.  LOTS of carryover heat from a hot grill that will finish the interior.  Going back to high heat...  Go look up some of the fancy steak places and pubs and you will find they are using a salamander which is a high temp broiler.  A sear burner does the same and a typical grill ain't gonna cut it.


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## bgaviator (May 31, 2018)

I like all kinds of burgers. Smash and thick. I’ve been trying to do thick burgers. Haven’t tried smash yet. 
But yes the stuff at the restaurants tastes like a good steak. Maybe I just won’t get that flavor at home without actually using ground steak or brisket?  I know a lot of restaurants use various meat blends. I just don’t want to be spending that kind of money on those kinds of meats for something we won’t use up in a timely manner. I have a butcher shop that makes a burger blend that is ground ribeye and short rib. Kinda pricey at $8.99/lb but maybe that would give me more of the flavor I’m looking for?  All the articles I read on making burgers always just recommend 80/20 chuck though. Maybe though that’s just because it’s easy for the home cook but not necessarily the best flavor?


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## AllAces (May 31, 2018)

70/30 ground beef.
Minimum handling of the burger.
Burger on a very hot griddle/flat top, smash the burger with something heavy like a brick covered with foil.
Salt and pepper and a pat of butter. 
Cook until there's a crust, turn once.


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## gmc2003 (Jun 1, 2018)

I do burgers with either 80/20 or 70/30 and mix in a little worcestershire or A1. Form a ball and squish them down with plate and a piece of parchment paper until I have the desired thickness. Sear both sides on the Kettle right over the Vortex, melt the cheese and finish cooking off on the outer half of the grate. 

Chris


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## bgaviator (Jun 1, 2018)

Do you all think I should be cooking at a lower temp too?  Maybe 400 instead of the 500-600 I’ve been running at?
I tell ya what’s really hard about the Kamado is when you start getting into the 500+ range, the flames are raging like crazy. Gotta move quick!


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## tallbm (Jun 1, 2018)

bgaviator said:


> Do you all think I should be cooking at a lower temp too?  Maybe 400 instead of the 500-600 I’ve been running at?
> I tell ya what’s really hard about the Kamado is when you start getting into the 500+ range, the flames are raging like crazy. Gotta move quick!



Depends on the thickness of the burger for me.  If you are doing really thick burgers then you run into the outside burning up before the inside is cooked.  That is fine when doing a thick steak since you want sear and char on the outside and the inside medium rare or less but with a burger you may need to cook a little more so on a thicker burger I would come down some on temp like you are thinking.

This is why I mention to go with a 1/2 inch burger patty to start with so that you can more easily get your desired cook (med rare through to well).  At 1/2 an inch thick life is much simpler :)
I find I like big burger patties in diameter way more than in thickness.  I like my patties to stick out past the bun or at least bee the same size as the bun diameter :)

As for meat a little trick I learned while working in a grocery store is that the ground meat that the grocery store butcher sells in the old school packaging of foam tray and wrapped in plastic wrap, is ground meat from all of the steak trimmings they have from trimming everything from ribeye down to chuck steaks.  So you get chuck, or round, or a combination of steak trimmings that are better fur 80/20 prices or even less expensive! :D

I hope all of this info helps :)


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## zwiller (Jun 1, 2018)

bgaviator said:


> I’ve been getting my Kamado up to 500-600 degrees and preheating the cast iron griddle plate in it. But with the thicker burgers this last time, the burgers were starting to burn before the insides were done.
> 
> On the fish sauce, I got that tip plus the Duke’s mayo tip from the same article.
> 
> https://www.washingtonian.com/2015/07/02/the-15-step-absolutely-perfect-burger/



It takes some learning to cook over extreme high heat.  At first you will be convinced you are burning/ruining it but that is actually the key.  Dare I say you actually want it to "burn".  This is the world famous Peter Luger porterhouse.  The exterior is probably darker than most guys do at home.  1800F salamander broiler...  What happens during the rest is that the juices flow and meat relaxes so there is little to no char.  Burgers are the same.  Eventually you will get a feel for it but you will be leary for awhile.  An alternative to a sear burner is using a CI skillet over a propane "cajun cooker".


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## lancep (Jun 1, 2018)

So I’ve been reading through this thread and now I’m not sure I remember everything that’s been suggested or tried so forgive me. Have you tried a reverse sear yet? It seems like you’re trying to get a good crust without cooking the life out of it or eating raw beef. I’m not familiar with your cooker but from the pictures I’ve been looking at it seems that you could put your cast iron accessory on one half of the lower grate and a water pan on the other with the upper half grate directly above. That should let you bring your IT up to a little short of your target and then finish on the cast iron to get your crust. Again, forgive me if you’ve already tried this. 

Lance


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## old sarge (Jun 1, 2018)

I have been following this and see several recommendations for grinding the meat yourself. That is what I do and burgers are great (I still drink beer though). So I use a LEM #8 Big Bite grinder. All stainless, no aluminum. I got a notice today from Mills Fleet Farm that they dropped the price so if you need a grinder that might be a good one to look into. 5 year warranty. I have not had mine bog down at all. Just a suggestion and you can custom grind till you get the mix just right.

https://www.fleetfarm.com/brand/lem...lem/_/N-4164077436?null&_=1527905955155&No=72


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## chopsaw (Jun 1, 2018)




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## old sarge (Jun 1, 2018)

I'll take two to go please!


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## chopsaw (Jun 1, 2018)

Thanks  Sarge . Just trying to make a point . That cook was ,,,, MAYBE 20 minutes ,, and I mean maybe . 
Lid only went on to melt the cheese .  Store bought 80/20 just salt and pepper . Best burger I ever had ,, no , but very good . Don't over think it , and don't over cook .


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## SonnyE (Jun 1, 2018)

Well, Ima goin in tomorrow!
Grand Daughter is 5 on the 11th. We won't be here.
So Grandma is throwin a shin-dig, Grandpa will be flippin Burgers and rollin Hot Dogs.
Pool is clean and heated, yard is vacuumed, outdoor kitchen is ready, I'm dicing some smoked cheese and going to make some Kielbasa ordervies, and Salmon dip.
Grandma's makin her loved Macaroni salad, and other delights.
All decorated up.

I have a Weston Patty Press and weigh out my burgers to 1/4 pound apiece, then they get stacked with Patty Wax papers and froze in a pound before vacuum sealing. So I pulled 4 pounds, 16 Burgers. 
My plan is Salt, Pepper, Cheese on request, and Grilled Onions on request. Condiments available, Ranch Dressing, and Smokey Horseradish Sauce.
Iced Green onions, slice white onions.

Good, Grandma is done in the kitchen. Time for Grandpa to go play. :rolleyes:;):p


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jun 1, 2018)

indaswamp said:


> Buy ground meat 80/20 and make your own patties. I personally believe a really great burger needs a little pork in it.
> MY burger recipe:
> 4# 80/20 beef chuck
> 2# ground pork butt
> ...



You lost me after 80/20. That recipe looks a little meatloaf-esque. But, now I'm curious enough to try it!


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## old sarge (Jun 2, 2018)

Guess my invite is still in the mail. Save me a seat, I might be a tad late!


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## nanuk (Aug 17, 2018)

tallbm said:


> My simple approach for you would be:
> Form Large patties (thicker/bigger is easier to practice with than thin patties)
> 
> IMPORTANT: Before throwing on the grill add Salt to the patties.  Mixing in salt earlier makes the proteins bind up and you get a firm dense chunk of meat for a patty rather than the proper burger texture.
> ...




Well, I never went to burger school, so I don't know how patty texture is supposed to be....
But I like mine thin DENSE and seasoned.
Thin because they cook through quickly, staying JUICY, and NOT BURNED on the outside.
the smell and taste of burned meat/fat turns me off when it comes to burgers.
Preformed dense thin patties are a delicacy for me.

This new wave of loosely made patties with premium meat just gives me a sawdust burger.


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## tallbm (Aug 17, 2018)

nanuk said:


> Well, I never went to burger school, so I don't know how patty texture is supposed to be....
> But I like mine thin DENSE and seasoned.
> Thin because they cook through quickly, staying JUICY, and NOT BURNED on the outside.
> the smell and taste of burned meat/fat turns me off when it comes to burgers.
> ...



I don't disagree at all with what you describe (if I'm understanding it correctly).

What I am meaning with the word dense is like a 1 1/2 inch patty that is like a rubber hockey puck.

There is a site that talks about this issue and here are two patties where everything but one factor is identical and both were cooked in he same skillet. The one difference is when the salt was mixed in/added.  The first image looks like a good burger, the 2nd image looks like a dense thick rubber hockey puck.  This is what I'm referring to as dense, what I think the OP is getting, and what I am thinking when I describe how to avoid it :)






See how the 2nd patty is mostly like a solid hunk of meat even in the less cooked center.

I have a sneaky suspicion you mean thin dense like this which is perfectly fine.  Let me know if this is the case because the topic can get confusing without the images :)


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## nanuk (Aug 20, 2018)

Yup, I think that is what I mean

I have never seen ground meat turn into hockey pucks (something we Canadians know a lot about)

Even when I make a sausage product with salt in it, and leave it for a couple days, the salt does not make it like that double pic... more like your second one....

interesting stuff

I may have to salt some ground, just to see what it does


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## zwiller (Aug 20, 2018)

I do not like the salt effect in big thick burgers like a 8oz pub style but it works well in small 2-3oz smash burgers.  Phosphate is a total game changer for my pub burgers.


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## Jeff Wright (Aug 20, 2018)

Don't know about the KJ.  I have a BGE and still would not think of cooking burgers on anything but my Weber.  Just my opinion, but burgers and steaks just come off better from a Weber than anything else.  I see a lot of interesting variations in this thread on making a perfect burger, but the one thought I find most relevant is that it is in the eye of the beholder.  Everyone has their own idea of the perfect burger.  Have seen a few ideas to try for variation here, though.   Good thread.


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## tallbm (Aug 20, 2018)

nanuk said:


> Yup, I think that is what I mean
> 
> I have never seen ground meat turn into hockey pucks (something we Canadians know a lot about)
> 
> ...



Yeah the stuff is interesting and that article I took the pics from is an awesome read.

I'm in the camp where I like to mix my seasonings into the meat in bowl for outstanding overall flavor throughout the patty.  The dense big puck problems happens due to 2 things here.  1) As you mix the meat you break down the proteins which makes them easier to bind into a more solid meat structure and (2) salt wants to aid the breakdown and formation of denser meat.  So mixing in the salt is like a double whammy for thick dense hockey puck burgers.

My solution is to mix all the seasonings in EXCEPT the salt.  Take the bowl of mixed meat out to the grill and THEN mix in the salt (lightly working the meat) and immediately make a patty, throw it on the grill, and repeat.  This way the whole hockey puck situation is avoided AND I get the outstanding flavor throughout the entire patty!

The other option I sometimes do is to mix the meat and seasoning in a bowl EXCEPT the salt, make the patties on a tray then take the tray out to the grill and salt all the patties on top.  Throw the patties salt side down on the grill and then add salt to the top facing side of the patties while on the grill since they have no salt.  That is a simple process but at the cost of less salt flavor througout the patties.  This works best with thinner patties rather than whopping 8oz+ patties which are my favorite.  I like my patty to be bigger than my bun :D

As Jeff pointed out, it's all personal preference :)


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## Jeff Wright (Aug 20, 2018)

Another something I have noticed recently, and I don't know how regional this may be...Someone above mentioned mixing pork with their hamburger.  I have really noticed over the last year or so the popularity around here with Boston Burger.  Very frequent sales around here at $1.99/lb.  I am not exactly sure of the ratio, but it is either 40/60 pork/beef, or 50/50.  It is mixed to be 80/20, and has remarkable flavor for ground beef.


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