# Nitrite or not?



## dryheat122 (Feb 25, 2018)

Is there any reason to use nitrite other than cosmetics or to prevent spoilage at fridge temps?  I figure I can vacuum seal and freeze it to prevent spoilage.  Other things being equal, I'd prefer to have bacon without the preservatives.


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## bob-whie (Feb 25, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> Is there any reason to use nitrite other than cosmetics or to prevent spoilage at fridge temps?


One reason -- Nitrite creates the characteristic flavor of bacon. 

Would imagine if nitrites were eliminated from all commercial bacon, sales would plummet to near zero.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 25, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> Is there any reason to use nitrite other than cosmetics or to prevent spoilage at fridge temps?  I figure I can vacuum seal and freeze it to prevent spoilage.  Other things being equal, I'd prefer to have bacon without the preservatives.


Like the other poster said: you don't get bacon without nitrite. You get salted belly...tasty, but not bacon.


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## dward51 (Feb 25, 2018)

Why eliminate nitrates/nitrites?

Other than flavor development, it inhibits the growth of harmful bacteria and prevents spoilage.

If you are thinking it is a health concern, you need to be aware if you are eating salad, spinach and a host of other vegetables, you are ingesting more nitrites than you ever will from bacon and sausage.  It's a naturally occurring compound in pretty much all leafy vegetables. 

Also if you see "nitrite free" or "uncured" on a product label, look a the details.  You will see something like "except for those naturally occurring in celery juice" somewhere in the fine print.  Again, this is a gimmick to charge you more money for a product (sort of like antibiotic free chicken as any FDA inspected chicken is antibiotic free). Nitrites or nitrates are just that. The chemical compound is the same no matter if it is purified into crystalline form before use (as in what is mixed with salt in cure #1 and #2), or in it's liquid form as a vegetable juice extract.  They just use a lot more of the vegetable extract version to accomplish the same thing (and charge you a lot more in the process).  In the end you are eating nitrites/nitrates either way.


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## daveomak (Feb 26, 2018)

Nitrite in meats is absolutely necessary to prevent botulism..  It is in all processed meat products...   The amount remaining in retail products is ~10-20% of what was input...  Since the FDA instituted mandatory levels of nitrite, somewhere around 1930, there has not been 1 case of botulism from properly processed meats..

You usually only get botulism once...   It is the deadliest pathogen known to man...


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## Rings Я Us (Feb 26, 2018)

Welcome to the forum also.
:cool:


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## dryheat122 (Feb 26, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback.  I just finished a batch with no nitrite, and it tastes pretty good to me.  I guess I will have to split the belly in two pieces and try it both ways next time.  And am freezing the current batch to protect against botulism and other nasties.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 26, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I just finished a batch with no nitrite, and it tastes pretty good to me.  I guess I will have to split the belly in two pieces and try it both ways next time.  And am freezing the current batch to protect against botulism and other nasties.



Does it taste like good bacon or does it just taste good?

The warnings for botulism are meant for processing meat at above fridge temps. And mostly for ground meat products.


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## dward51 (Feb 26, 2018)

Unless something has changed, I always understood it that _Botulinum_ Spores cannot be killed by freezing alone. 

If you made it without cure and you escaped the growth of C. botulinum (and the inherent toxin produced), then you are OK (and lucky).  But if spores were present, freezing will not kill them or prevent growth upon thawing.  If you don't use cure it's not a certainty you will have problems, just a possibility.  The outcome is not worth the gamble, hence the USDA requirements like DaveO quoted above....


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## SonnyE (Feb 26, 2018)

I'll just keep my mouth shut.
People worry about things, then eat processed foods, or food in a restaurant, and have no idea what they are eating.
Much less what they are breathing.
People won't immunize their children, then it is somebody else's fault the kid becomes sick and is a carrier of a disease once irradiated by immunizing.

I say, what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger. What does stomach acids do?
Enjoy your bubble Howard Hughes.
Dozens of us, me included, have a nice supply of Pink Salt to counteract you when you die.

Told you I should keep my mouth shut. Enjoy a short life.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 26, 2018)

dward51 said:


> Unless something has changed, I always understood it that _Botulinum_ Spores cannot be killed by freezing alone.


Correct: freezing does not kill B spores. Neither does nitrite. They both prevent the germination of spores into bacteria (which is when the toxin is made).

Lack of toxin on a whole muscle (belly) is not luck. Is nature at work. The spores need specific conditions to germinate. Ground meat? Different story.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 26, 2018)

SonnyE said:


> I'll just keep my mouth shut.
> People worry about things, then eat processed foods, or food in a restaurant, and have no idea what they are eating.
> Much less what they are breathing.
> People won't immunize their children, then it is somebody else's fault the kid becomes sick and is a carrier of a disease once irradiated by immunizing.
> ...


Cheer up! No one is dying.


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## SonnyE (Feb 26, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> Cheer up! No one is dying.



Yet.... ;)


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## bob-whie (Feb 26, 2018)

SonnyE said:


> Enjoy your bubble Howard Hughes.
> Dozens of us, me included, have a nice supply of Pink Salt to counteract you when you die............Enjoy a short life.



I get the pride in the crotchety old man syndrome and take no prisoners writing style, but geeeeez*!*
The man was just asking a benign question which most here answered in a polite and helpful manner.

There are thousands of recipes out there doing exactly what this man is doing, most notably Alton Brown's "Scrap Iron Chef's Bacon".
The Food Network lawyers would surely never permit a lethal recipe to appear on television and on their website.

You might consider the value of civility, decorum and fellowship.


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## dryheat122 (Feb 28, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> Does it taste like good bacon or does it just taste good?



Well, both.  It doesn't taste exactly like commercial bacon, but I wouldn't expect it to.  It has a slightly more "porky" flavor to it than regular bacon, which I like.  Also the protein portion doesn't seem to get as hard when cooked.  Like I said I will need to try a batch with two cures, one with and one without nitrite.


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## dryheat122 (Feb 28, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> Correct: freezing does not kill B spores. Neither does nitrite. They both prevent the germination of spores into bacteria (which is when the toxin is made).
> 
> Lack of toxin on a whole muscle (belly) is not luck. Is nature at work. The spores need specific conditions to germinate. Ground meat? Different story.


Right.  Botulinum is an anaerobic organism so it won't form on the surface of whole meat where it's exposed to air.


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## dryheat122 (Feb 28, 2018)

bob-whie said:


> There are thousands of recipes out there doing exactly what this man is doing, most notably Alton Brown's "Scrap Iron Chef's Bacon".
> The Food Network lawyers would surely never permit a lethal recipe to appear on television and on their website.


FWIW, Hormel (of all people) sells a "natural bacon" they claim is without added preservatives.  I saw something similar for sale at Trader Joe's today too.


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## SonnyE (Feb 28, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> FWIW, Hormel (of all people) sells a "natural bacon" they claim is without added preservatives.  I saw something similar for sale at Trader Joe's today too.



I bet if you check it with a geiger counter it glows... ;)
Well, enjoy! :D


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## bob-whie (Feb 28, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> FWIW, Hormel (of all people) sells a "natural bacon" they claim is without added preservatives.  I saw something similar for sale at Trader Joe's today too.



The term "natural bacon" is a misnomer at best and a hoax at the end of the critical scale.
The celery juice power cures bacon in the same manner as sodium nitrite.
The package label states: "No Nitrites or Nitrates Added* **Except *for Those Naturally Occurring in Seasoning". The USDA is complicit in perpetuating the hoax by permitting the product to be labeled "natural". Do you think perhaps the meat industry has pockets deep enough to buy off a few politicians to get a "clean" label on their products?

Strangely "natural uncured bacon" is handled identical to cured once it leaves the factory, no special refrigeration required......hum. 

"Natural Bacon" is a feel good result of the food police and the press that's been excoriating bacon for decades.
Just give me the hard core stuff, I don't want to be associated with all the irrational food snowflakes out there.


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## dward51 (Feb 28, 2018)

Which is just another way of saying what I said previously.... "except those naturally occurring in celery juice".

It's a marketing ploy to tickle a little more money out of our wallets.  It's still cured, just with "natural" ingredients (which nitrites and nitrates also are -  again cure is cure, does not matter if it's a crystal powder of extracted nitrite/nitrate or in the form of the base vegetable juice. The chemical compound is the same).  Sort of like when the Listerine people invented the term "halitosis" back early last century.  It was a marketing ploy and not a medical term. Made them a mint of money though.

As to the Hormel "natural uncured bacon" the following is cut and pasted from the Hormel website for this product line:

_



			"Nitrates:

Some foods, like vegetables, naturally contain small levels of nitrates or nitrites? Similarly, Hormel® Natural Choice® products may contain naturally occurring nitrates and nitrites, but none are added."
		
Click to expand...

_​So if you are adding vegetable juice and extracts, how is that not adding nitrates and nitrites when you know the vegetable juice/extract contains exactly that?  Like I said..... a gimmick.


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## dryheat122 (Mar 2, 2018)

Wow you guys are surprisingly passionate about this.  This will probably really piss you off :-)

Yes, bacon really is killing us (The Guardian)


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 2, 2018)

dryheat122 said:


> Wow you guys are surprisingly passionate about this.  This will probably really piss you off :)
> 
> Yes, bacon really is killing us (The Guardian)


These articles are dime-a-dozen. We've all seen them.

I am not arguing one side or another. Just point out you can't make omlette without breaking eggs.

If the great cholesterol scam of the 70s serves as a lesson....


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## daveomak (Mar 2, 2018)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!



dryheat122 said:


> Wow you guys are surprisingly passionate about this.  This will probably really piss you off :)
> 
> Yes, bacon really is killing us (The Guardian)


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