# Water pans, do you use them and why?



## smokeusum

I have a masterbuilt, extra-wide smoker. I know around here, in eastern NC, home of some of the best BBQ in the country, I catch flack for using a propane smoker, that it isn't really smoking, but my hubby, a master digester of eastern (pork) BBQ says I've put them boys to shame... 

Anyway, I find the water pan, while adding a bit to flavor is also a great regulator for temp control in addition to just being something between an open flame to my meat (or salmon!) and I add stuff to it; water that they wood was soaked in, apple cider or juice, or whatever else I can get my hands on. Of course, it's mostly water... So what are your thoughts, methods, etc, and the reasoning behind it?


----------



## s2k9k

I have a propane smoker also and I'm a firm believer in the dry smoke chamber. I dumped the water in my pan a long time ago and keep it filled with sand. Sand makes a much better thermal mass than water does. Water will not go above 212* and as it evaporates the size of the thermal mass changes. Sand will take as much heat as you can throw at it and it's size will not change therefore giving much more consistent temps.


----------



## coffee_junkie

I use play sand instead of water in my propane smoker. Two reasons, I have an AMAZE-N-Smoker that i use to generate my smoke, water in the pan would make it go out. The other reason is that water doesn't add moisture or flavor to the meat. I add flavor and moisture to the meat through rubs, maranades, injections, brines etc. The play sand keeps its temps really well and never needs to be refilled on long smokes. Cuz remember, if your lookin' you aint cookin. If I need water, for instance when I am smoking sausage I have a little 9x9 stainless cake pan that I place in the bottom of the smoker. The casings need to stay moist during the cooking.

Another strong opinion I have is that soaking the wood chips is counter productive, the chips don't burn any longer when soaked, they just take longer to get smoking. The longevity of chip smokage comes from how much air gets to them, control the air and you will get longer smoke times and better smoke period.

Have fun kicken those boys butts.


----------



## smokeusum

coffee_junkie said:


> I use play sand instead of water in my propane smoker. Two reasons, I have an AMAZE-N-Smoker that i use to generate my smoke, water in the pan would make it go out. The other reason is that water doesn't add moisture or flavor to the meat. I add flavor and moisture to the meat through rubs, maranades, injections, brines etc. The play sand keeps its temps really well and never needs to be refilled on long smokes. Cuz remember, if your lookin' you aint cookin. If I need water, for instance when I am smoking sausage I have a little 9x9 stainless cake pan that I place in the bottom of the smoker. The casings need to stay moist during the cooking.
> Another strong opinion I have is that soaking the wood chips is counter productive, the chips don't burn any longer when soaked, they just take longer to get smoking. The longevity of chip smokage comes from how much air gets to them, control the air and you will get longer smoke times and better smoke period.
> Have fun kicken those boys butts.


----------



## smokeusum

Darn it, using my phone on this forum isn't easy :) coffee_junkie thank you, I appreciate the boy-butt kicking comment!! 

I am actually going against manufacturer guidelines with my smoker and am actually using "chunks" for a longer burn/smoke time. I'll have to try the sand thing! Thanks guys!


----------



## s2k9k

Nothing wrong with using chunks, much better than chips.


----------



## daveomak

As a kid growing up.... and seeing smoke houses that put out some great food.... I never saw a water pan anywhere....  I still can't figure why they are needed.... except, maybe to make up for a poor quality smoker..   Big Chief, Lil Chief, Totem.....  none of them had water pans either...


----------



## smokeusum

That's a pretty harsh statement Dave to a newbie; are you implying I purchased a poor quality smoker? Yea, probably, I'm new, it was a gift to my husband how LOVES old school, classic Lexington, NC BBQ. A connosuer of 30 years, he's a professional digester! 

With that said, I watched him, his best buddy and my daughter eat my first pork butt for three days... Heated and reheated in the microwave over & over with the same comment... Damn, still doesn't need sauce!!! That was all I needed to hear to know I was doing something right!

Now, back on topic, I mentioned this post to him and he had a different theory regarding the water pan. He disagrees, stating that while it may not add to the keeping meat juicy, the steam created would infuse up into the meat, which I have at agree with, at least for my smoker, where the pan sits directly above my coals and directly under my meat or fish:)

Been pretty pleased so far, but I'm still learning :)












image.jpg



__ smokeusum
__ Jan 20, 2013


















image.jpg



__ smokeusum
__ Jan 20, 2013


----------



## smoke happens

That's not a harsh statement at all smokeusum, not sure how you picked that up from Dave's comment? You asks for thoughts, methods and reasoning and he answered. Dave is a wealth of knowledge and can teach any newbie or long timer a lot. IMHO of course...


----------



## davidhef88

Smoke Happens said:


> That's not a harsh statement at all smokeusum, not sure how you picked that up from Dave's comment? You asks for thoughts, methods and reasoning and he answered. Dave is a wealth of knowledge and can teach any newbie or long timer a lot. IMHO of course...



Dave is a wealth of knowledge, but I thought the comment was a little rude also.


----------



## smokeusum

I total get the wealth of knowledge you all have! I'm hear to learn, theorize and recreate what those old masters used to do, and then add to it!


----------



## daveomak

Davidhef88 said:


> Smoke Happens said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a harsh statement at all smokeusum, not sure how you picked that up from Dave's comment? You asks for thoughts, methods and reasoning and he answered. Dave is a wealth of knowledge and can teach any newbie or long timer a lot. IMHO of course...
> 
> 
> 
> Dave is a wealth of knowledge, *but I thought the comment was a little rude also.*
Click to expand...

Sorry Dave..... Seems I have been PM'ing folks for months on how to make their smokers work better.... It was a "quick" comment with no thought put into it....  My error.... 


smokeusum said:


> *That's a pretty harsh statement Dave to a newbie; are you implying I purchased a poor quality smoker? *
> 
> Been pretty pleased so far, but I'm still learning :)


Smokeusum....  Yes it was harsh and I apologize.... It was not directed at you... It was directed at all the companies that sell smokers that are less than acceptable....  mainly from an engineering standpoint....  Hopefully I will put a little more thought into my future comments before my fingers disengage my brain...    Dave


----------



## fwismoker

Moisture makes the surface of the meat sticky for smoke to adhere better is a fact.   Are there times that isn't necessary? Absolutely there is such as cold smoking or times you want a crispy skin on turkeys or chickens.


----------



## davidhef88

DaveOmak said:


> Sorry Dave..... Seems I have been PM'ing folks for months on how to make their smokers work better.... It was a "quick" comment with no thought put into it....  My error....
> 
> Smokeusum....  Yes it was harsh and I apologize.... It was not directed at you... It was directed at all the companies that sell smokers that are less than acceptable....  mainly from an engineering standpoint....  Hopefully I will put a little more thought into my future comments before my fingers disengage my brain...    Dave



No problem Dave..  You usually aren't short like that. I was just concerned that a lot of people could have taken it as if their smoker had a water pan it was junk. Which you know as well as I do isn't true, but a newbie could have really taken it the wrong way. I too have been PMing a bunch of people links to mods I've done on master forge gasser.  Seems to be a lot  more since the temp has dropped and the snow is flying. Have a great night and thanks for all the help and looking forward to help where I can.


----------



## michael ark

I use a water pan and love it. It helps keep my temps down and the surface of the meat moist.


----------



## diggingdogfarm

There are advantages to controlling the moisture in a smoker with a water pan, eliminating the dreaded stall, etc., but most folks tend to like to keep things simple.


~Martin


----------



## fwismoker

michael ark said:


> I use a water pan and love it. It helps keep my temps down and the surface of the meat moist.


There are advantages to controlling the moisture in a smoker with a water pan, eliminating the dreaded stall, etc., but most folks tend to like to keep things simple.

^^^Remember that "dreaded stall" is what makes something like good brisket possible!


----------



## diggingdogfarm

I'm talking the evaporative cooling stall, not the barely existent collagen or whatever stall.


~Martin


----------



## fwismoker

We're talking the same stall. Meat temp won't climb until moisture evaporates. Having more more moisture in the pit can slow the cooking but no problem because the end result will be better
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





The only time i don't use a water pan is with things that i want cooked faster such as whole chickens and want a crispier skin.


----------



## diggingdogfarm

FWIsmoker said:


> We're talking the same stall. *Meat temp won't climb until moisture evaporates.* Having more more moisture in the pit can slow the cooking but no problem because the end result will be better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only time i don't use a water pan is with things that i want cooked faster such as whole chickens and want a crispier skin.




Yup, that's an unfortunate effect of smoking at dry-bulb temperature.



~Martin


----------



## dirtsailor2003

I too am a fan of having a dry smoke chamber. I haven't used the water pan in my gas smoker for years. It has been filled with sand and covered with foil. It provides better thermal mass than water (remember water will only heat to 212*). Having the thermal mass in my neck of the woods makes a huge difference when smoking during the winter, or when there is high winds. Really keeps the temp swings down. The first year I used the water pan and always had a harder time controlling the temps in inclement weather. Since I switched it out, I haven't had those issues, and I've never had a dry product. Well there was that Canadian Bacon, but blame there is on the operator not the dry smoke chamber!


----------



## maple sticks

I use a water pan in my 250 tank. It sits in the chamber a little below and to the side of the fire box. Purpose is to humidify the smokey air passing past it. My thought is what moisture the air picks up out of the water pan will keep it from picking off my meat. Other words I use it not to moisten the mead but keep the meat from being dried out with hot dry air. I go through one cup of water an hour during a smoke. Not much water but I feel it helps.


----------



## michael ark

Can't get more simpler than putting water in a pan. If I see temp start to climb it means the pans empty. Just add water it brings it right down.


----------



## grinder

dirtsailor2003 said:


> I too am a fan of having a dry smoke chamber. I haven't used the water pan in my gas smoker for years. It has been filled with sand and covered with foil. It provides better thermal mass than water (remember water will only heat to 212*). Having the thermal mass in my neck of the woods makes a huge difference when smoking during the winter, or when there is high winds. Really keeps the temp swings down. The first year I used the water pan and always had a harder time controlling the temps in inclement weather. Since I switched it out, I haven't had those issues, and I've never had a dry product. Well there was that Canadian Bacon, but blame there is on the operator not the dry smoke chamber!


I agree with this, completely. I started out using the water pan, as per the instructions. Tried adding different juices and ingredients, to infuse the meat with flavor. Several years ago I read about the sand theory, on this site and decided to give it a try. I didn't notice any difference in the flavor or moisture of the meat and didn't have to keep opening the smoker to add water.


----------



## pgsmoker64

Okay, I'm gonna weigh in.  I have an electric smoker, a WSM, and a CG w/ SFB.  I added a water pan to the CG to help with temp control.

I have used the water pan in the WSM but recently switched to sand and everything went find.  I found one huge difference!  Way less clean up!  And since I can tend to the lazy side at times, I really like the less clean up part.  I also hate doing dishes!

The water pan on the electric, I've used it and for clean up sake I'm gonna switch that to sand too!

Everyone will have differing opinions on whether or not to use the water pan...choose your method and see what works for you and don't worry what someone else thinks  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Hey, if your hubby likes your Que that's all the praise you need!

Good luck,

Bill


----------



## goingcamping

I am newbie so take from my experiences what you will...

I have a NB with a SFB. I use an 8'x4' cake pan filled with water between the SFB (I made a heat shield that directs the heat down rather than horizontal) and the cooking chamber. I only use it on pork and beef smokes as I don't want them the meat to dry out too fast! I live at 6,200' and it's a lot dryer here than in most places, so in my experience, using this method creates a moister atmosphere for the smoking (and a messier smoker!). I have not tried the sand method, but I plan on it!

I cannot say for certain it makes a huge difference as I've not smoked but a few BBR without the water pan and they do turn out awesome either way (using mopping every hour religiously). It was some advice I picked up on some BSR smoke on youtube...I tried and liked the results...even if they're anecdotal on nature!

~Brett


----------



## akhap

coffee_junkie said:


> Another strong opinion I have is that soaking the wood chips is counter productive, the chips don't burn any longer when soaked, they just take longer to get smoking. The longevity of chip smokage comes from how much air gets to them, control the air and you will get longer smoke times and better smoke period.



Sorry, but from a purely scientific approach that statement is absolutely wrong.  The air control is important to chip life but the water content of the wood is far more important smoke-wise in two ways; water content determines how hot the wood CAN burn until all the water is driven off.  Lower temperatures produce more smoke.  Drier wood produces significantly more heat and less smoke.

Your system likely runs perfectly on dry wood, but it is far less efficient in smoke production per unit of wood.  Trying to beat physics is a tough thing.

I am a certified wood technologist by education, experience, and desire.
art


----------



## pgsmoker64

AKhap said:


> Sorry, but from a purely scientific approach that statement is absolutely wrong. The air control is important to chip life but the water content of the wood is far more important smoke-wise in two ways; water content determines how hot the wood CAN burn until all the water is driven off. Lower temperatures produce more smoke. Drier wood produces significantly more heat and less smoke.
> 
> Your system likely runs perfectly on dry wood, but it is far less efficient in smoke production per unit of wood. Trying to beat physics is a tough thing.
> 
> I am a certified wood technologist by education, experience, and desire.
> art


That may be, but cut open a chunk of wood after letting it soak overnight and see how much moisture is really there.  It doesn't penetrate past 1/16" into the wood, if that.  That water will evaporate in the high heat and will contribute nothing to the length or the quality of smoke.  Chips is a different story of course because they are very thin, but a 30 minute soak isn't enough to make a big difference - this is speaking from experience and experimentation.

Bill


----------



## the duster

Art and Bill Let me see if I understand.  If I soak the wood longer it will burn longer but it will take more time to get to the thin blue smoke stage due to the water in the wood?  I think that is what I get from your comments.  I have neither experience nor professional training so I am very intrigued. 

As for the water pan I use it as a heat baffle and I know most here have vertical units but would sand be good for an offset as a heat baffle? 

Thanks all for your good info and this weekend will not get here soon enough for me to fire up the unit.  Thanks


----------



## pgsmoker64

the duster said:


> Art and Bill Let me see if I understand.  If I soak the wood longer it will burn longer but it will take more time to get to the thin blue smoke stage due to the water in the wood?  I think that is what I get from your comments.  I have neither experience nor professional training so I am very intrigued.
> 
> As for the water pan I use it as a heat baffle and I know most here have vertical units but would sand be good for an offset as a heat baffle?
> 
> Thanks all for your good info and this weekend will not get here soon enough for me to fire up the unit.  Thanks


Duster, if you are using logs or chunks just burn it dry, because unless you let it soak for weeks the moisture won't penetrate the wood.  I have actually cut open soaked wood.  Wet wood will flash off the moisture (steam) before it starts burning and making the TBS.  If you are using chips, go ahead and soak if you want, it will slow down the burning of the wood as Art stated and it may last longer.  

Bill


----------



## smokeusum

PGSmoker64 said:


> Duster, if you are using logs or chunks just burn it dry, because unless you let it soak for weeks the moisture won't penetrate the wood.  I have actually cut open soaked wood.  Wet wood will flash off the moisture (steam) before it starts burning and making the TBS.  If you are using chips, go ahead and soak if you want, it will slow down the burning of the wood as Art stated and it may last longer.
> 
> Bill


Bill!! Tell him about the sand!!!  YES, YES, YES!! These guys taught me about the sand!! 

I made the switch this past weekend and WOW! What a difference!!! I usually fight to stay at temp, this past weekend I had to learn my unit all over again because it stayed at temp! It was nice not jumping up every five minutes to look and adjust the flame because it had dropped dangerously low!!


----------



## akhap

PGSmoker64 said:


> That may be, but cut open a chunk of wood after letting it soak overnight and see how much moisture is really there.  It doesn't penetrate past 1/16" into the wood, if that.  That water will evaporate in the high heat and will contribute nothing to the length or the quality of smoke.  Chips is a different story of course because they are very thin, but a 30 minute soak isn't enough to make a big difference - this is speaking from experience and experimentation.
> 
> Bill



Bill
Your points are true under certain, very specific circumstances...  There are huge differences between woods and how quickly the soak up water.  Whiskey barrels are made of white oak, never red.  Take a 6" long piece of red oak and try to blow through it from the end grain.  If you are a cigarette smoker blow a little smoke through it.  You will likely be shocked.

White oak has a bunch of different stuff plugging those pores which are essentially the same size, just filled with gums, xanthins, tyloses, resins, and lots of other stuff.  White oak was often used for building wooden boats for the same reason.  I patented a process for drying those difficult hardwoods in the late '70s and it is still used on the west coast.  I have spent tons of time looking at hardwoods' mechanical properties in relation to how they respond to water, though usually from the water loss side of things.

Suggesting water will only soak in 1/16" in 30 minutes is frankly wrong, even with white oak though.  Overnight is obviously very different.  The biggest mistake you are making though is assuming you see water penetration.  Rather than splitting and looking for a colorless bit of water, just weigh it before and after soaking...  Different woods will soak up water at different rates, but red and white oak are actually pretty close to opposite ends of that spectrum.  Cottonwood is actually used a lot in coastal AK to smoke with... try a piece of it dry if you want to see wood that will flat soak in some water!

As the water evaporates it takes a lot of heat with it, cooling the wood that is left behind (adiabatic cooling) without changing the amount of heat in the system.  Smoke is a function of incomplete combustion.  The hotter the burning temperature the more complete the combustion will be.  Charcoal is simply wood with the water and lighter ends of the total fuel package burned off to produce higher heat.  It is what allowed man to melt iron...

Have to run to a meeting, maybe more later...
art


----------



## akhap

the duster said:


> Art and Bill Let me see if I understand.  If I soak the wood longer it will burn longer but it will take more time to get to the thin blue smoke stage due to the water in the wood?  I think that is what I get from your comments.  I have neither experience nor professional training so I am very intrigued.
> 
> As for the water pan I use it as a heat baffle and I know most here have vertical units but would sand be good for an offset as a heat baffle?
> 
> Thanks all for your good info and this weekend will not get here soon enough for me to fire up the unit.  Thanks



The temperature you run your fire at will determine how fast wet wood will dry and start to smoke.  The amount of water in the wood will determine how hot the actual "burning front" can get.  If you run a cool fire the water will evaporate and cool the burn more effectively.  The smoke "window" will probably not be as long... Run it too hot and the wood will surface dry faster and start smoking sooner.  The wood will burn slightly cooler, but the extra heat will reduce the cooling effect and allow a hotter burning front, therefore less smoke per unit of wood.  Get the temperature right and the wood will burn at a relatively uniform rate, produce lots of smoke, and last longer.

Dry wood will burn faster and hotter, produce less smoke, and require more tending.

The total heat equation inside the smoker is surprisingly complex and the nature of burning wood, which is a very erratic fuel source, in small controlled burns makes it difficult to make errorless blanket statements.  Water (steam) venting from your smoker carries a tremendous amount of heat with it.  But things like atmospheric pressure, ambient temperature, relative humidity, and many other variables each bring their own correction factor for calculating burn rates.

Wet wood produces more smoke than dry under typical smoker conditions.  Wet wood burns longer under typical smoker conditions.  Wet wood will add heat to the smoker for a longer period of time and at a more consistent rate under typical smoker conditions.  Those are facts brought to use by Physics.  You may find exceptions, but those are symptoms of a marginal smoker set-up.
art


----------



## pgsmoker64

smokeusum said:


> Bill!! Tell him about the sand!!! YES, YES, YES!! These guys taught me about the sand!!
> 
> I made the switch this past weekend and WOW! What a difference!!! I usually fight to stay at temp, this past weekend I had to learn my unit all over again because it stayed at temp! It was nice not jumping up every five minutes to look and adjust the flame because it had dropped dangerously low!!


 Right you are Alicia!!  I switched to sand a few months ago and have been enjoying the switch!  Good steady heat from a mass that doesn't evaporate gives you a much more steady temperature in the smoker.

Good luck,

Bill


----------



## pgsmoker64

AKhap said:


> The temperature you run your fire at will determine how fast wet wood will dry and start to smoke. The amount of water in the wood will determine how hot the actual "burning front" can get. If you run a cool fire the water will evaporate and cool the burn more effectively. The smoke "window" will probably not be as long... Run it too hot and the wood will surface dry faster and start smoking sooner. The wood will burn slightly cooler, but the extra heat will reduce the cooling effect and allow a hotter burning front, therefore less smoke per unit of wood. Get the temperature right and the wood will burn at a relatively uniform rate, produce lots of smoke, and last longer.
> 
> Dry wood will burn faster and hotter, produce less smoke, and require more tending.
> 
> The total heat equation inside the smoker is surprisingly complex and the nature of burning wood, which is a very erratic fuel source, in small controlled burns makes it difficult to make errorless blanket statements. Water (steam) venting from your smoker carries a tremendous amount of heat with it. But things like atmospheric pressure, ambient temperature, relative humidity, and many other variables each bring their own correction factor for calculating burn rates.
> 
> Wet wood produces more smoke than dry under typical smoker conditions. Wet wood burns longer under typical smoker conditions. Wet wood will add heat to the smoker for a longer period of time and at a more consistent rate under typical smoker conditions. Those are facts brought to use by Physics. You may find exceptions, but those are symptoms of a marginal smoker set-up.
> art


 Art,

You da man!!!  I can see we will make very good use of your specific talents on this site.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Great scientific explanation on the physics of burning wood!  Most of the science we get here has to do with meat's reaction to burning wood.

I don't want to highjack this thread (tho I think we already did) but would you consider providing some scientific information regarding the best smoking woods, and any other wood information you would like to share?  I think that would make a great thread!!!!

Thanks,

Bill


----------



## the duster

PGSmoker64 said:


> Art,
> 
> You da man!!!  I can see we will make very good use of your specific talents on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great scientific explanation on the physics of burning wood!  Most of the science we get here has to do with meat's reaction to burning wood.
> 
> I don't want to highjack this thread (tho I think we already did) but would you consider providing some scientific information regarding the best smoking woods, and any other wood information you would like to share?  I think that would make a great thread!!!!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill


Hey Bill, this would be a great separate thread.  Just with what Art has shared has given me many ideas of how I may want to alter the way I smoke.  What would a caveman think to hear us talking about properties of wood to cook and maximizing burn times and such?  When all they had was this method and it was put the meat on fire when crispy eat :)


----------



## smokeusum

> What would a caveman think to hear us talking about properties of wood to cook and maximizing burn times and such?  When all they had was this method and it was put the meat on fire when crispy eat :)



Lol, that's because they forgot low and slow -- fire to caveman is like microwave to modern man! 

It's really is amazing how multi-faceted the art of smoking is; we like to think we re-claiming a lost art but we are truly creating a new art based on old school ideas combined with new scientific research!


----------



## humdinger

For long smokes, like Butts I like to use a hybrid approach. Like Maple Sitcks says above,  "my thought is what moisture the air picks up out of the water pan will keep it from picking off my meat. Other words I use it not to moisten the meat, but keep the meat from being dried out with hot dry air."

In a more arid setting, the moisture will evaporate out of the meat faster as it cooks than it would in a humid setting (think of sweat on your skin during a humid summer day vs. a dry summer day). I totally agree that sand/pebbles are a better heat sink (temp stabilizer) than water, but I use water to make the chamber more humid for longer cooks where there is higher risk of drying out the meat.

For pork butts, I use the water pan from the start of the cook to help retain moisture in the meat as it cooks. After reading here on SMF that the "stall" is caused by the meat wanting to "sweat", I then realized that 165F was the temp to pull (or not refill) the water pan, thus making my chamber more arid, and therefore speeding up the sweat evaporation off the meat. (in other words, speed up the stall without foiling)

I did a totally dry chamber smoke last fall and had a small, but noticeable dryness of the final product throughout. That's hardly a fair sample size so I might try again, but not for any group functions. Also, both of my smokers have a second door for water/wood pans and I believe that has a huge effect on my preference since I can add wood/water without opening cook chamber. Something to consider for the future.

Lastly, for the record, I never add flavorings to the water. With the exception of maybe strong vinegars, I feel that any flavors infused as steam into the meat would be too insignificant to be worthwhile. Just marinade!


----------



## pastorgadget

IMHO the water pan basic function is as a heat sink. I will try soon using  sand in my pan to see if it works as well as reported by many in the forums. Many complain that they do not get the bark they want but I have not had any problem with bark on my smokes.  The arguement that using a water pan adds moisture and adds to the stall just does not add up. We use foil to get through a stall faster, which keeps moisture around the outside of the meat. The 150-160 stall has to do with evaporation of moisture but on the inside of the meat not the outside.  Moister from a water pan does not penetrate that deep. 

Just my 2 cents


----------



## diggingdogfarm

Pastorgadget said:


> The 150-160 stall has to do with evaporation of moisture but on the inside of the meat not the outside.  Moister from a water pan does not penetrate that deep.



If you say so!!!!!!

:biggrin:


~Martin


----------



## humdinger

For those who haven't seen it, here's the article about the reason why the "stall" happens. It's really good.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-goldwyn/physicist-cracks-bbq-mystery_b_987719.html

The section titled "How to beat the stall and retain more moisture" talks at length about foiling and it's affects.


----------



## akhap

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Content deleted



Actually, that is not correct.  Air is moving into the smoker at all times and leaving with more water than it started with.  Cool air coming in is much smaller than warm, wet air leaving and far more dense.

Wet bulb versus dry bulb temperatures are nothing more than a measure of the Relative Humidity.  I assume your suggestion is to raise the RH to prevent evaporation of water.  The problem is you have to evaporate water to raise the RH.  The theory is that reduces the rate the water CAN evaporate from the product.  It will not evaporate as rapidly and will cook with the lower evaporation rate.

Elevated RH leads to water droplets on the product which trap smoke particles and often lead to "hot spots" and such in flavor... It is not a good thing in fish smoking unless the smoke is filtered well.

Please excuse the dydactic nature of this next example but I think it will be much more clear if spelled out this way:
Wet air is lighter than dry air.
Warm air is lighter than dry air.
Warm, wet air is far lighter than cool, dry air.

In the combustion area liquids and solids are being converted by heat to gases and oxidizing (burning), or reacting to other components, or perhaps just remaining themselves and wafting away.

Those elements that oxidize release heat.
Those elements that react with other elements may release heat, consume heat, or do neither... Almost all release heat.

In all cases conbustion gases become huge compared to their former physical size as wood.  As gases they now have the ability to carry away water vapor with them.  The water that evaporates from the wood is of course part of that water, but far more can be held by the combustion gases.

As the gases leave the combustion area they cool rapidly (Juul-Thompson effect among many others) and increase their water carrying abilities.

All of which contribute to draft.

Trying to keep up with the amount of water it takes to keep RH high enough to inhibit evaporation means a lot of water has to evaporate somewhere else.  It takes more than 15 thousand calories to evaporate an ounce of water... which explains exactly why evaporative cooling is so effective as the heat required to evaporate the water leaves with the water vapor, cooling the substrate it leaves behind.

Why does this mean anything to fish smoking?  Pretty simple and obvious once you look at it.  The pellicle is water soluble and will go away in high humidity.  All the attempts to control the stall with wraps and such speak to the lack of good crust in the end.  With fish smoking the pellicle is critical...

Actually, commercial smokers have been discussing humidity control and understood evaporative cooling as the culprit decades ago.  In the lumber industry wood in solar dry kilns was noted to cool during the heat of the day as RH rose and circulation increased in my "Dry Kiln Operators Manual" dated 1961 and they reference work from the late 1800s.

(almost deleted this bit of bits but decided to just set it aside in parenthesis for those looking for wandering details... sorry...
If there is not enough air available to maintain fire you have to have electric heat so we will leave that out of the discussion.

Propane of course generates a ton of water to produce heat; one propane molecule and five oxygen molecules produce four water molecules and three carbon dioxide molecules.  That is more than a pound and a half of water vapor produced for every pound of propane burned.

Ethanethiol is a whole other subject on propane, and I do not want to eat it...)


----------



## Dutch

This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.

Proceed accordingly~


----------



## davidhef88

WOW!!  Now that is some serious smoke talk. Glad I have fun when I smoke. I'd hate to worry about my beer evaporating into my smoker through airflow because I was standing too close. Would that add to to the stall?


----------



## pgsmoker64

Davidhef88 said:


> WOW!! Now that is some serious smoke talk. Glad I have fun when I smoke. I'd hate to worry about my beer evaporating into my smoker through airflow because I was standing too close. Would that add to to the stall?










LMAO!!!!


----------



## diggingdogfarm

Dutch said:


> This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.
> 
> Proceed accordingly~



If my posts are irrelevant, please delete my posts, including quotes of my posts.

Thanks!

~Martin


----------



## smokeusum

Dutch said:


> This looks to be going South in a hurry. This is Smoking Meats Forum and not the Science Channel forum.  I will agree that knowing the how and the why smoking works is interesting, folks aren't here to watch Art and Martin engage in scientific debate. If you two would like to continue this, please use the PM feature. If this continues, I will lock the thread and delete your posts.
> 
> Proceed accordingly~



Dutch, I agree that there has been most recently a bit too poking -- I would not call it debating -- I would rather see you ask the "pokers" individually to delete their posts then delete or lock this post. The information has been hugely informative and has incited, at least me, to further research the craft of smoking.  To think that any one of us absolute knowledge of this question is short-sighted and while we may not want to follow (or won't; I hate math) follow the scientific value of the questioned posed does not mean it is not relevant.

To that end;  Martin, Art, if you can't play nice, pm it.


----------



## diggingdogfarm

smokeusum said:


> To that end;  Martin, Art, if you can't play nice, pm it.



Scroll up one post please.
I asked that my posts be deleted.
And please don't insist that I carry on the conversation in a PM.
The conversation is over.


~Martin


----------



## smokeusum

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Scroll up one post please.
> I asked that my posts be deleted.
> And please don't insist that I carry on the conversation in a PM.
> The conversation is over.
> 
> 
> ~Martin



I'm sorry, Martin, my reply to Dutch was meant in defense to both you and Art; I felt you both supplied valid, informative and research-invoking information.


----------



## fwismoker

For the most part i believe it comes down to this.

Stick burner or charcoal cooker- water pan is useful to humidify the air and regulate temps from getting too high.

Propane cookers already put out moisture so you don't need or want a water pan. During the combustion process propane actually creates water.  Why propane cookers come with water pans is beyond me.


----------



## maple sticks

Well a group of us were having dinner at Sonny's which is a chain of BBQ restaurants in the south. I being interested in smoking meat asked if I could see their smoker set up. The waitress said its not allowed which is probability a standard answer but would relay my request to the manager. When we were almost done with our meal the manager came to the table and asked if I was the one who wanted to see their set up. It was a Southern Pride which almost every chain BBQ place uses. When I looked into the wood burn chamber two gallon cans were setting just inside the door. I asked what they were for, answer, water. They put water cans between the door and the wood fire to increase moisture. These cans sit beside the fire but I'm sure it does warm up in that chamber. Point is they are not trying to steam the meat just keep it from drying out. And they use mostly gas for cooking. Just though it was interesting.


----------



## thegoose

I wonder if outside air humidity makes a difference...I use a smoke hollow with water pan...I am in Phoenix Arizona with notoriously "dry" climate....I did move the pan up to the bottom shelf...I did not like it where it was as it would divert the heat and smoke right into the side vents...I felt like I was losing a lot of heat and smoke flavor right out the side...that and the pan water would simmer off real quick and my temp would,spike....where I have it located now it makes the temp and smoke flow real stable for hours.


----------



## raastros2

always apple juice and beer or coke or something in mine...never just water or sand


----------



## akhap

thegoose said:


> I wonder if outside air humidity makes a difference...I use a smoke hollow with water pan...I am in Phoenix Arizona with notoriously "dry" climate....I did move the pan up to the bottom shelf...I did not like it where it was as it would divert the heat and smoke right into the side vents...I felt like I was losing a lot of heat and smoke flavor right out the side...that and the pan water would simmer off real quick and my temp would,spike....where I have it located now it makes the temp and smoke flow real stable for hours.



Smokers vary a tremendous amount in every aspect of the way they operate... finding the best way to run you gear is critical to producing the best possible food in the end.

Understanding the variables required to fine-tune your rigging is critical to producing the best food possible from your rigging.

Having someone suggest my opinion based on years of intense research and involving generating letters after my name in most venues is somehow unwelcome is getting tiresome. 

Should anyone question ANY aspect of ANY of my posts, EVER, please let me know what I can do to explain my comments.  I may have made a mistake, been less than totally clear,  left something out, failed to articulate a point, or even been wrong...  But I take huge pride in not making mistakes and not posting guesses, anywhere.  I welcome all input on my posts.


----------



## akhap

the goose
Yes, Relative Humidity (R.H.) is critical in how your smoker works in typical AZ conditions.  But you had that figured already...
art


----------



## goodman916

coffee_junkie said:


> I use play sand instead of water in my propane smoker. Two reasons, I have an AMAZE-N-Smoker that i use to generate my smoke, water in the pan would make it go out. The other reason is that water doesn't add moisture or flavor to the meat. I add flavor and moisture to the meat through rubs, maranades, injections, brines etc. The play sand keeps its temps really well and never needs to be refilled on long smokes. Cuz remember, if your lookin' you aint cookin. If I need water, for instance when I am smoking sausage I have a little 9x9 stainless cake pan that I place in the bottom of the smoker. The casings need to stay moist during the cooking.
> 
> Another strong opinion I have is that soaking the wood chips is counter productive, the chips don't burn any longer when soaked, they just take longer to get smoking. The longevity of chip smokage comes from how much air gets to them, control the air and you will get longer smoke times and better smoke period.
> 
> Have fun kicken those boys butts.


Your reasoning sounds good and I bet the results are great! I am going to try sand instead of

water as a regulator. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## bigdnaz

welp.....

Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.


----------



## humdinger

BigDnAZ said:


> welp.....
> 
> 
> Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.


 This thread is just one other perspective, so the best thing you can do is experiment with both methods and see what works best for you. I use pea gravel in my water pan because I have a propane smoker. Propane gives off enough moisture when burning to keep my chamber humidity balanced, but if I ever switch to charcoal or stick burner, I may use a water pan more frequently. Just got to play with it until things turn out how you like.


----------



## bigdnaz

>





Humdinger said:


> BigDnAZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> welp.....
> 
> 
> 
> Wow more great info from this site.  Again, I always told to keep my water tray filled with water/juice and just today someone told me "WHOA?! WATER IN YOUR PAN TRAY? DAMN, ARE YOU A NEWB?!?!?" Well, yes, yes I am.  So I decided to search this topic (on here) and have a learned this might be one of the reason's I was not burning my chips the last time I smoked.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is just one other perspective, so the best thing you can do is experiment with both methods and see what works best for you. I use pea gravel in my water pan because I have a propane smoker. Propane gives off enough moisture when burning to keep my chamber humidity balanced, but if I ever switch to charcoal or stick burner, I may use a water pan more frequently. Just got to play with it until things turn out how you like.
Click to expand...

indeed. ;)


----------



## tonka16827

I've reading the conversations around the water pan and the pros and cons.  Well, last weekend for the first time, I tried sand in place of the water in the water pan. I read a few posts that the sand would help keep the temp consistent as the liquid was such an energy absorber. All went really well and the temp held better - btw I have an electric smoker. But, I didn't foil the pan and the sand baked in like a rock. Other than having to chisel it out, I'm not sure how to clean the pan. I've soaked for a few day and that did little. Any thoughts on how to clean the sand out? Next time - Foil over the top for sure!! Thanks


----------



## inkjunkie

Tonka16827 said:


> I've reading the conversations around the water pan and the pros and cons.  Well, last weekend for the first time, I tried sand in place of the water in the water pan. I read a few posts that the sand would help keep the temp consistent as the liquid was such an energy absorber. All went really well and the temp held better - btw I have an electric smoker. But, I didn't foil the pan and the sand baked in like a rock. Other than having to chisel it out, I'm not sure how to clean the pan. I've soaked for a few day and that did little. Any thoughts on how to clean the sand out? Next time - Foil over the top for sure!! Thanks


Thanks for the heads up on the foil....


----------



## red dog

I always used water when I had a gasser. Lots of ways for moisture from the meat to escape in most gassers and water seemed to help. But, it was also a pita to control the temp in. One thing that was nice about is you could crank the temp up to crisp up poultry skin. Since I got the MES I never use water anymore.


----------



## inkjunkie

Red Dog said:


> I always used water when I had a gasser. Lots of ways for moisture from the meat to escape in most gassers and water seemed to help. But, it was also a pita to control the temp in. One thing that was nice about is you could crank the temp up to crisp up poultry skin. Since I got the MES I never use water anymore.


Do you fill the water pan with sand? Just wondering....


----------



## chef k-dude

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>  <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument>  <w:View>Normal</w:View>  <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>  <w:TrackMoves/>  <w:TrackFormatting/>  <w:PunctuationKerning/>  <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>  <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>  <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>  <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>  <w:DoNotPromoteQF/>  <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>  <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>  <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript>  <w:Compatibility>   <w:BreakWrappedTables/>   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>   <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   <w:DontGrowAutofit/>   <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/>   <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/>   <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/>   <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/>  </w:Compatibility>  <m:mathPr>   <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>   <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>   <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/>   <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>   <m:dispDef/>   <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>   <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>   <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>   <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>   <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>   <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>  </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument></xml><![endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="false"  DefSemiHidden="false" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99"  LatentStyleCount="371">  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 7"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 8"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index 9"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 7"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 8"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 9"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Normal Indent"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="footnote text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="annotation text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="header"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="footer"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="index heading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="table of figures"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="envelope address"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="envelope return"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="footnote reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="annotation reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="line number"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="page number"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="endnote reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="endnote text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="table of authorities"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="macro"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="toa heading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Bullet"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Number"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Bullet 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Bullet 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Bullet 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Bullet 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Number 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Number 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Number 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Number 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Closing"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Signature"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text Indent"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Continue"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Continue 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Continue 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Continue 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="List Continue 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Message Header"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Salutation"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Date"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text First Indent"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Note Heading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text Indent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Body Text Indent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Block Text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Hyperlink"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="FollowedHyperlink"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Document Map"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Plain Text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="E-mail Signature"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Top of Form"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Normal (Web)"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Acronym"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Address"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Cite"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Code"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Definition"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Keyboard"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Preformatted"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Sample"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Typewriter"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="HTML Variable"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Normal Table"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="annotation subject"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="No List"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Outline List 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Outline List 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Outline List 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Simple 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Simple 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Simple 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Classic 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Classic 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Classic 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Classic 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Colorful 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Colorful 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Colorful 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Columns 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Columns 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Columns 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Columns 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Columns 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 7"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Grid 8"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 7"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table List 8"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table 3D effects 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table 3D effects 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table 3D effects 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Contemporary"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Elegant"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Professional"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Subtle 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Subtle 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Web 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Web 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Web 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Balloon Text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"   Name="Table Theme"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true"   Name="List Paragraph"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true"   Name="Intense Quote"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true"   Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true"   Name="Intense Emphasis"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true"   Name="Subtle Reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true"   Name="Intense Reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Bibliography"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="41" Name="Plain Table 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="40" Name="Grid Table Light"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/> </w:LatentStyles></xml><![endif][if gte mso 10]><style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;mso-style-noshow:yes;mso-style-priority:99;mso-style-parent:"";mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;mso-para-margin:0in;mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}</style><![endif]

I have great respect for DaveOmak, he appears to have decades of experience.

I don’t think his comment was harsh and I don’t think Smokeusum was actually offended…looked like an admission to buying a “newfangled” gadget that old timers pshaw to me. Nothing over the top.

Anyway, I agree with Dave on his comments about watching people smoke since a kid. I’m sure a lot of them did not use water. A lot of them don’t use marinades, injections, mustard rub before fancy schmancy rub concoctions…none of that.

HOWEVER…my wife always stops in NC on her way back from family to get the BBQ they always ate down there. Yep, that famous “Lexington” BBQ. People rave about it and swear by it, however it never impressed me.

That “Lexington” BBQ joint…one that has been around forever and has been featured on many food shows, proudly proclaims they use only salt, heat and smoke as I recall. I can tell…like I said…”not impressed”.

My wife made BBQ butt in the crock pot for years that’s blows this “Lexington” stuff away and now that I smoke my own…I blow away this “Lexington” BBQ with a masterbuilt AND a water pan. Sorry to any diehard fans out there…this is just fact. Salt and smoke can’t compete with more complex rubs in my humble opinion.

Another very weird thing about these “Lexington” folks…they don’t pull meat, they only slice and chop…Huh?


----------



## massivemedic

I just seasoned my offset charcoal smoker. There is a grease pan and an ash pan but no water pan, what do i do? P.s. im completely new to smoking. Going ti smoke my first stuff this weekend.


----------



## humdinger

Some guys use an empty pie tin or something similar. Just fill that with water and place it somewhere in the cooking chamber where it wont interfere with the air flow or meat cooking on the grate. Hope that helps.


----------



## tonka16827

The best advice I found on water pans was someplace else in the Forum - "Fill with sand and cover it with foil. You don't want to steam your meat. The pan works better to distribute the heat with the sand."  I filled my a couple of years ago and I've never regretted it.


----------



## massivemedic

Thanks guys it does help


----------



## eatmypork

So this was a great read! 

Now with that said, has anyone thought about half sand and water?  My thoughts on that would be one the RH would be high at the start till the water evaporates. Then when that happens the sand would still be there as a regulator for the heat, but the RH of the smoker would be lower for the end of the cook. Just something I thought about while reading this thread


----------



## humdinger

Not a bad idea EatMyPork. I have a propane smoker and I stop using water pans years ago after I read that when propane burns it gives enough moisture to keep the cook chamber at an acceptable level. I have also read that charcoal or wood smoke chambers run a bit drier due to a different fuel source, and since MassiveMedic has a charcoal offset, I suggest he try a pie tin.

Bottom line for me is do a few smokes with it, and then do a few without and see what works best for your style of cooking. I put pea gravel in my water pan 3 years ago and never looked back.


----------



## remsr

I am a dry chamber smoker too ever since a 28 time grand champion said don't fill the pan with water. I have a WSM 22 1/2 and a MES 40" both pans are filed with play sand and covered with foil. I don't soak my wood either,


----------



## dirtsailor2003

REMSR said:


> I am a dry chamber smoker too ever since a 28 time grand champion said don't fill the pan with water. I have a WSM 22 1/2 and a MES 40" both pans are filed with play sand and covered with foil. I don't soak my wood either,



What if the 28 time champion was trying to take out the competition! 

I'm a dry smoke chamber guy too. Dry wood also.


----------



## myownidaho

I use a water pan just because I'm using a Bradley. When the briquet is done, it gets shoved into the water to extinguish it. If you don't do that, it continues to smolder for a bit and imparts off flavors.

When I was using a Brinkmann, I used the water pan because it helped me with temperature control and because I didn't know any better.


----------



## remsr

I have read a lot about why not fill the pan with water and why you should and I have also read a lot about why you shouldn't soak your wood and why you should. Why I shouldn't do these things made more sense than why I should. I didn't just take the 28 time grand champions word for it. If you google the questions, is filling the water pan necessary for smoking foods? And is soaking wood chunks and chips necessary for smoking foods? Your questions will most likely be directed to answers by the people on the Forms. 

Randy,


----------



## daniels

Wow!  Good thread.  All sorts of opinions and the logic behind them.

Now for my $0.02 worth.

Sand would only act as a mass to reduce temperature fluctuations whether above or below 212*.  If my WSM got up to 275* with a water pan full of sand then it would tend to keep the temperature at 275*.  It would reduce the duration of the temperature swings and aid in temperature recovery when a wind whipped up or the aluminum door was opened.  But if the sand gets well below or above my target temperature it makes it more difficult to attain that target temperature.  Sort of like thermal inertia.

Water on the other hand tends to keep the temperature close to 212* when it is at or above 212* in the cooking chamber.  It takes a large amount of energy to change liquid water to gaseous water.  Since you are usually shooting for 225* to 250* for low-and-slow smoking 212* is in the ball park and will make it more difficult for the temp to go far above 212*.  The water will also act as a heat sink to keep the temperature from going far below 212* when the water is boiling and the cooking chamber temperature drops.  But water will sort of pull the temperature down when it goes above 212*.

The water in the pan isn't for adding moisture to the meat or flavoring if the pan has beer or apple juice or whatever.  None of that will penetrate deeply into the meat.  It will just affect the very outer surface if at all.

I'm thinking water in the pan does the same thing as sand in the pan at temperatures below 212*.  Water in the pan does much more than sand at helping to keep the temperature from spiking too far above 212*.


----------



## geezer

I use a water pan.


----------



## gr0uch0

Never have, never will.  Ruins a bark, water vapor combined with smoke gives off a bitter taste, and meat texture is mushy. Water's for drinking, bathing, fishing, car washes, and lawns:  if I wanted steamed meat, I'll opt for shellfish and mussels. Otherwise, I'd join Weight Watchers to eat rubbery steamed winged and hooved animals:  then someone could shoot me shortly thereafter and put me out of my misery.


----------



## geezer

gr0uch0 said:


> Never have, never will. Ruins a bark, water vapor combined with smoke gives off a bitter taste, and meat texture is mushy. Water's for drinking, bathing, fishing, car washes, and lawns: if I wanted steamed meat, I'll opt for shellfish and mussels. Otherwise, I'd join Weight Watchers to eat rubbery steamed winged and hooved animals: then someone could shoot me shortly thereafter and put me out of my misery.


No, mostly nonsense. But uh, carry on.


----------



## gr0uch0

Geezer said:


> No, mostly nonsense. But uh, carry on. :icon_mrgreen:



If nonsensical, then why not cook with wet wood, and carve out the the time and extra step of drying the timber?

Here's a hint:  lack of a clean burn.  Same effect is had when water molecules reattach to the smoke from dry wood--acrid taste (see:  creosote), and mushes up a perfectly good bark.  Sorry, geez, but that's no nonsense--pure fact.


----------



## geezer

gr0uch0 said:


> If nonsensical, then why not cook with wet wood, and carve out the the time and extra step of drying the timber?
> 
> Here's a hint: lack of a clean burn. Same effect is had when water molecules reattach to the smoke from dry wood--acrid taste (see: creosote), and mushes up a perfectly good bark. Sorry, geez, but that's no nonsense--pure fact.


No guy, its complete BS. Sorry. You're comparing apples to footballs. 

Now, I'm not going to argue this further, so save it.


----------



## daniels

Never mind.


----------



## gr0uch0

Geezer said:


> No guy, its complete BS. Sorry. You're comparing apples to footballs.
> 
> Now, I'm not going to argue this further, so save it. :icon_rolleyes:



You've not disproven a thing, but instead, simply cried "BS" and left.  If you can prove that water vapor and smoke molecules don't cling to one another, let's hear it.  Why do you think one of the main objectives in cold smoking is to rid the smoke of the condensate and separate the two?

You might want to do a litle homework prior to attempting to discredit others, "guy".


----------



## chef k-dude

Some is science and some is opinion, and some is “lore”.

As far as advice from competition smokers, it can be very effective, but can also be very specific to their particular setup.

I haven’t watched a lot of competitions, but I don’t imagine since I get the furrowed brow from “the best barbeque guy in town” (from whatever town I happen to be in) when I chat with him and tell him I love to do some smoking here and there and use a masterbuilt electric smoker…that these “professionals” (a word that means you get paid, not necessarily that you are the best at anything) are using an electric masterbuilt smoker.

My MES came with a pan. The instructions tell you to use the pan…if you want, it also tells you to dampen/constrict the vent…another argument you can start on this web site in a heartbeat…fruitlessly.

The nice lady that started this firestorm of discussion is using a propane smoker…there are many kinds of smokers…including gas grills with smoker pans bought from the hardware store or other places (pray tell!).

At age 52, I can tell you for a fact that “good barbeque” is a matter of opinion anyway. I see judges discrediting ribs that come readily off the bone…”you should have to bite and pull a bit” they’ll say. But I haven’t met one person…regular people, not these “smoking gods” who determine the fate of competitors…that has ever had ribs that come right off the bone, or falling off the bone so much that a fork is actually effective, say, “these taste OK, but I hate when the meat falls off the bone". Never in my life have I ever met a person who said that. So, “professional” is more than opinion when you are trying to please judges at a competition, but regular people don’t always agree with the experts…and there are a lot more regular people that eat food than “experts”.

Because of my little MES, electric, with water pan and all, I almost NEVER by any smoked meat anymore. What I make is as good or better than 85% of all BBQ I have purchased…at least my experience in the east which includes the vaunted “Lexington BBG” which to me is the most overrated of all…but my wife loves it…because she grew up on it. I have also had BBQ in Texas, and did not come home to Virginia wanting to repeat that. As a Virginia boy I had to "get the hell out of Texas anyway"...and here's the song about it: 

There are so many variables to smoking and using a water pan in my opinion.

The first would be, “What is the ambient humidity in the air of the day you are smoking in?”. Right? Duh. If it’s raining, it would be different than a really dry day. And your heat source is NOT going to absolutely dry every cubic foot of air it draws and passes through your smoker…especially at a smolder.

Second would be, “what kind of smoker and thus heat source are you using?”…and wood…some people actually smoke with green wood (gasp!) which would release moisture as it tries to burn.

Third would be, “What are you smoking?”. I would think smoking some fish using a water pan would make more sense than a butt, but I use mine almost all the time and will often remove it near the end of the cooking time with anything I want a bark on, to allow that bark to “set” or dry out some. I love bark the most of all, so I am all about protecting the bark…my beautiful, sacred, blackened, chewy wonderful bark…but I digress…

The other thing my water pan does for me in my MES is catch a lot of the fat, rather than that fat fall to the bottom of the smoker, it not only saves some cleanup, but also not dripping on the heat shield over the electric element which creates an aroma and flavor I’m not fond of.

Usually, on a long smoke, my pan evaporates most liquid, and fat, which means some of that fat is recirculating with the steam…and that can’t be a bad thing. When the pan is almost empty, I remove it before IT starts to impart a flavor I don’t want in my meat.

I have a hard time believing a water pan does not add to moisture in the food or at least reduce the amount of moisture that precipitates from the surface of the food…which would help retain more of the natural moisture in the food. These “opinions” range far and wide here…some saying a water pan makes soft soggy bark while others say it’s a waste of time anyway because the water is irrelevant and doesn’t add moisture to the food except only on the surface. I think the answer is more complicated and goes back to the three factors I list above…in my opinion.

To the casual reader who popped in here just to get a danged answer so they can smoke a butt this weekend, I tell you…what I have learned, and why I don’t post here much anymore, is you are better off scouring the web, using what you read here AND elsewhere, and then choose what makes sense to you and do your own R&D at home. Your circumstance will be different than others and the day you smoke will be different than the next. Keep at it, you’ll smoke some mistakes, and you’ll get a lot just right. The important thing is you pay attention to “what was what”, and learn to “rinse and repeat” once you have found what works for you. As I wrote before, good BBQ is opinion unless you are in a competition, where it is my opinion, the “experts” are usually simply people who have produced good food for a long time and may have innovated beyond others. What THEY call “good ribs” for instance, may completely differ from your tastes and preferences. I know I tend to disagree with a lot of people who tell me their guy in their town has the best BBQ anywhere…I am often…not always, NOT as impressed…but still enjoy the food nonetheless and use eating their food as a learning experience for how to improve my own, as well as justify how good I really do cook.

*I realize using the term BBQ is a variable. In my post above, I am using the term to mean essentially everything we cook in our smokers. Australians call anything on grill "bah-be-Q"...we call it grilling, and to be precise, smoked pork that is pulled or chopped and often served with a bun and sides is what we in the USA call "Barbeque"…everything else that comes from our smoker is technically “Smoked-(insert food product name here), but a lot of Americans also call anything with a sauce, glazed and set on the meat “BBQ”. Your mileage may vary, but I was trying to keep it simple…not start a whole new discussion on “technical semantics”.


----------

