# Trying to add cold smoke to my salmon smoker, worried about tar



## wrybread (Aug 18, 2021)

I'm trying to make a cold smoke generator for my salmon smoker and getting a ton of tar in the combustion chamber (an old fondue pot), and I'm worried that it's going to affect the taste of the fish.

Here's my smoker:








It's an old Masterbuilt with the heating element removed since it wouldn't even produce smoke until it got to about 180 degrees fareighnheight. So now I have the heating element from a Big Chief smoker (about 800 watts) regulated by that little box on top to keep the temp between 140 and 150. I generate the smoke externally using the propane burner on the right of the cabinet.

It works great but I have to really watch the pan to make sure it doesn't flame up. It means sitting next to the thing and watching it like a hawk for hours and hours.

So today I made this cold smoke generator:







It's a riff on a design I found online, air gets pushed through that T joint which sucks up smoke from the combustion chamber below (the fondue pot). There's some holes on the bottom of the fondue pot where I light the wood chips. I'm using an old CPAP machine to push the air.

It works beautifully, but it leaves a *ton* of tar inside the combustion chamber. This is after just a couple of hours:











I stopped the smoking since I don't want to risk ruining the fish.

Any thoughts on whether that tar imparts a flavor?

Any idea how to stop it from forming or reaching the smoker?

I should say, I'm buring apple chips cut pretty finely (not the big chips).  I should also say I'm not positive it's reaching the smoker, it just scared me enough that I stopped smoking for now.

These salmon are way too hard to catch to risk ruining the fish. We've been catching some great ones here in Northern California this year.







Thanks for any help!


----------



## cmayna (Aug 18, 2021)

Nice Chinooky.  Is that pic taken along the Marin coastline?    When you say cold smoking, is this without any heat from the element, etc?


----------



## chef jimmyj (Aug 18, 2021)

The greater the distance the smoke generator is from the MES, the more the Creosote, aka Tar, will condense out of the smoke before reaching the Salmon....JJ


----------



## Fueling Around (Aug 18, 2021)

Use a smoke tube or tray filled with wood pellets.


----------



## wrybread (Aug 19, 2021)

cmayna said:


> Nice Chinooky. Is that pic taken along the Marin coastline? When you say cold smoking, is this without any heat from the element, etc?



Yup, off Tomales Point. Been a great year for big salmon. That one is our best so far, was 35 pounds.

As far as smoking temps, I like to keep it around 140 degrees fareignheight, which I do using an electric heating element connected to one of these:


Works really well for that purpose. I have it set to turn on below 130 degrees and turn off at 140.



chef jimmyj said:


> The greater the distance the smoke generator is from the MES, the more the Creosote, aka Tar, will condense out of the smoke before reaching the Salmon....JJ



So make the tube longer so the tar doesn't reach the smoker? I'll give that a try, but currently I'm having a problem making the exit tube longer than even just a few inches. When it's longer than that my smoke generator's venturi effect stops working and instead of sucking the air out of the smoke chamber the air starts travelling down to the smoke chamber. I wonder if using bigger diameter tubing would improve that. I'm using 1/2" pipe currently. It's this design, except instead of a paint can I'm using a stainless pot from a thriftshop fondue set, and instead of an air compressor I'm using an old CPAP machine.



And is the "MES" the smoker?



> Use a smoke tube or tray filled with wood pellets.



Is a smoke tube something like this?


Do you have one you can recommend?

And any details on "a tray filled with wood pellets"? Is that literally just some wood pellets on a tray lit on fire?

That makes me think I'm overthinking things with this smoke generator...


----------



## DRKsmoking (Aug 19, 2021)

Welcome from Nova Scotia

Nice fish, Just wondering ,could your wood chips be too green

Watching for an answer from others with more time in smoking

David


----------



## smokerjim (Aug 19, 2021)

wrybread said:


> Yup, off Tomales Point. Been a great year for big salmon. That one is our best so far, was 35 pounds.
> 
> As far as smoking temps, I like to keep it around 140 degrees fareignheight, which I do using an electric heating element connected to one of these:
> 
> ...



This is what a lot of use with our mes, the mailbox with a smoke tray or tube.


----------



## gmc2003 (Aug 19, 2021)

For cold smoking l'd suggest looking into the a-maze-n pellet tray. The tube will work but you can burn sawdust in the tray for an even cleaner smoke. 

Chris


----------



## chef jimmyj (Aug 19, 2021)

Cant help on the generator you built. The AMNPS TRAY is below...Search Mailbox Mod. The tray goes in the mailbox, the 3, 6, 9 feet of Dryer Vent Hose to bring the Smoke to the MES...JJ


----------



## cmayna (Aug 19, 2021)

Above is my highly modified MES40.  Typically I use the pellet tray in the mailbox.

My definition of cold smoke is with no heat from the element.  Just ambient temp.  I do this when cold smoking cheese,  lox, etc and more often during the winter months.

When doing fish in the 125-145* range I refer this as a low temp range, which is what I believe  wrybread is referring to.

Yes for the  AMNPS tray.   You can experiment with different length duct tubing.  The lizzo tube would work but I would only fill it half way up.  Otherwise too much smoke.

Yes, MES is the  Masterbuilt Electric Smoker.   Yours is like mine, a generation 1 MES40 series.

BTW,  I believe the stock heating element from a big chief is more like 450 watts.  If you ever want a bigger (hotter) element, you could consider installing a replacement MES element and still use the external controller.


----------



## Fueling Around (Aug 19, 2021)

wrybread said:


> ...
> Is a smoke tube something like this?
> 
> 
> ...


To me a remote "smoke generator" is not needed for your immediate needs to smoke a fish.

 All the smoke tubes function the same if octagonal, round or oval.
A tray is similar but just provides the thin blue smoke longer than a tube.
I don't have a cabinet but use a tube in my kettle to cold smoke.


----------



## wrybread (Aug 19, 2021)

Thanks so much for all the tips! Great to be able to talk to people working on the same issues.  Here's my updated smoker:







Using an old BBQ instead of a mailbox. This seems like such an obvious choice for this, I'm wondering what advantage a mailbox has? Something tells me I'm missing something. I haven't tested with an AMNPS or tube yet, I'm hoping there's not some nasty surprise waiting for me.

I really love the dryer tubing, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. So much better than my old steup. With my old setup I could get smoke like this but I'd really have to work at it. With this setup it's relatively effortless:







I ordered this pellet tube since the AMNPS is back-ordered. But in the meantime I'm using a stainless silverware organizer for wood chips:







And this deep fryer spoon for pellets since the mesh in the silverware organizer is too big for pellets:







Both have issues. The silverware holder keeps going out unless I use very fine cut chips (but with fine cut chips it works well), and the pellet one keeps catching fire. I'm smoking a batch tomorrow so I'll just use fine cut chips for now. Guessing with the pellet tube the pellets don't flame up?

And is the main advantage of the AMNPS maze burner over the tube that it burns longer? I'll probably pick one up once they're back in stock.



Fueling Around said:


> To me a remote "smoke generator" is not needed for your immediate needs to smoke a fish.



Something tells me you're right. I'm testing with the pellets inside the smoker and it's working great. No flame up, consistent smolder, and since I keep my smoker at 125 to 145 no noticeable heat.  Hmm.

And any thoughts on pellets versus chips? My neighbor the local salmon smoking guru says he doesn't like using pellets, but said that was just based on one batch that someone else made, so could of course be lots of things that he didn't like.



> The lizzo tube would work but I would only fill it half way up. Otherwise too much smoke.



Good tip. Any thoughts on how to tell if there's too much smoke being generated in general?

I'm brining up a small batch of salmon to test with tomorrow, very excited to try the new setup.


----------



## wrybread (Aug 20, 2021)

And 

 cmayna
, is that a raised exhaust pipe on your MES? Does that help a lot with the venturi?


----------



## cmayna (Aug 20, 2021)

Sorry no, that is actually a pipe connected to my fence, behind the MES.  Has nothing to do with the smoker.

wybread,  since you are getting the tube, as I mentioned earlier, try filling it half way vertically, then lay it on it's side and shake it vigorously left to right,  keeping one of your hands over the tube's opening.   Now the tube is filled halfway up while laying on it's side.

If you fill the tube up full, it will be too much smoke, ,,,,,,for me anyways.   Lots of practice and you end up with the perfect smoke.


----------



## smokerjim (Aug 20, 2021)

The tube gives off more smoke then the tray some find the tube gives off to much smoke for their mes , tray gives off a cleaner smoke and will last 9-12 hours. But try the tube maybe you like a little heavier smoke.as mentioned you could try the dust instead of pellets.


----------



## Lonzinomaker (Aug 20, 2021)

The advantage of the mailbox is the dryer tubing and connections stay in place when loading pellet tray in it.


----------



## wrybread (Aug 20, 2021)

I just put a batch in the smoker, things are looking good, to my eye at least:







I see people talk about having "nice blue smoke", any other descriptions of what that smoke looks like? With my old smoke source I had to just take whatever smoke I could get (ha) but now I'm interested in dialing it in.

Excited to try that pellet tube once it arrives. I had the wood chips flame up once already. For now I'm using one of those smart thermometer relays to monitor the temperature on the vent tube, and if it goes above 110 degrees it turns on an old radio which blasts static to let me know.


----------



## cmayna (Aug 20, 2021)

Looks good.  How long did you brine?   Dry brine?

You got lots of time to experiment once you get the tube.   And as previously mentioned,  fill the tube halfway.   A full tube is way too much smoke for an electric smoker.  Also make sure the tube is sitting on an elevated rack to allow air to flow underneath.

BTW,
I know exactly how excited you must be, smoking fish that you caught.  My wife and I do so much fishing,  which has caused job security for me to smoke our catch.  Next 3 weekends we will be out for more Salmon, rock & Ling cod,  Albacore, Halibut, etc.

Enjoy your smoke


----------



## wrybread (Aug 21, 2021)

cmayna said:


> Looks good. How long did you brine? Dry brine?



My brine is between 6 to 1 and 8 to 1 brown sugar to salt. Sometimes I add a bit of water to the brine before putting it on the fish and stir it up to dissolve the brine, on the theory that the liquid will reach more of the fish than the powder. But I keep getting better results from the dry brine, so this last batch was a dry 6 to 1.

I brine in the fridge until the salmon is pretty firm, which is usually around 15 hours.

I then very lightly rinse or just towel off the brine.

Then I put the strips on the smoker rack to dry for a couple of hours in front of a fan.

Then I start the smoking.

About half way through the smoking, once the skin is easy to remove, I remove the skin and put some spices on the skin side. Lately that's mostly just hot pepper flakes.

During smoking I keep the smoker temp at 140, although I may go down to 130 on this next batch and bring it up to 150 for a bit right at the end.

What's your process?

And awesome on the fishing. same stuff I go for. I keep my Boston Whaler Montauk 17 at Lawsons Landing (Marin California for folks not from around here), which is where I do all my fishing. Except for herring, which is mostly SF Bay, although we did get a run of herring up here this year too. We had such a spectacular run of salmon fishing earlier in the season, I was catching limits by 10am most fishable days. And the size was spectacular, I started thinking of 15 pounders as dinks. What a year. Now things are a bit slow after our last blow, most boats are grinding all day to catch maybe one salmon. But when they catch it's usually over 20 pounds, so I guess it's well worth it. If I didn't have a freezer full of salmon I'd be grinding with them. If and when it turns back on I'm ready.

Where do you go for your albacore?


----------



## tallbm (Aug 21, 2021)

wrybread said:


> I'm trying to make a cold smoke generator for my salmon smoker and getting a ton of tar in the combustion chamber (an old fondue pot), and I'm worried that it's going to affect the taste of the fish.
> 
> Here's my smoker:
> 
> ...



Hi there and welcome!
I can't help with your contraption but I can tell you what works for me and my MES. I cold smoke salmon lox and it is AMAZING!

I use my MES with a Mailbox Mod and the AMNPS tray.
I also built an cold smoke draft contraption that uses a computer fan to blow up a tube which draws smoke out of the smoker by creating an upward draft over the MES exhaust hole.

It's crude but man does it work well:






Again this goes over my MES vent and this solved all of my stale smoke issues due to now draft.
The AMNPS + Mailbox mod produces PERFECT smoke so I don't have the tar issue you are seeing.

Add all that up and you see how I cold smoke like champ... the 2 months of the year when it is cold enough for me to cold smoke here in Texas haha.

I hope this info helps! :)


----------



## wrybread (Aug 22, 2021)

Aha, the A-maze-N maze pellet smoker is available on ebay, ordered:









						A-MAZE-N AMNPS 5 in x 9 in Maze Pellet Smoker Box for sale online | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for A-MAZE-N AMNPS 5 in x 9 in Maze Pellet Smoker Box at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




Sold out everywhere else I could find it. Hopefully it's the real thing.

And if I'm smoking around 130 to 140 degrees, is there any reason to still use the mailbox mod (or similar) once I get that pellet tray? Couldn't I just put the tray inside the smoker, maybe with 

 tallbm
's clever mod to get some air moving? 

And using this with the mailbox mod, do your pellets ever flame up after you blow them out? 

And on a sidenote I ordered this temperature controller to control my heating element and sound an alarm if my smoker gets too hot, which happens when the wood flames up. That alarm could either be soiunded by a radio plugged into the "cooling" outlet, or I think it even has a built-in alarm for high temperature. This simplifies my old method of using two of these, one set to heat the smoker by powering the heating element (since the stock innards of my Masterbuilt died during one of my mods), and one set to sound an alarm if the temp goes above 150. 

Inkbird also has a unit with two relays which probably would have worked too, but I like the built-in power outlets on the Pymeter. I also like the way the Pymeter has two temperature probes, handy to be able to see the temperature at different levels of the smoker.


----------



## tallbm (Aug 23, 2021)

wrybread said:


> Aha, the A-maze-N maze pellet smoker is available on ebay, ordered:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As long as your AMNPS gets enough oxygen inside your smoker you should be fine.  Many with the MES30 cannot run it inside the smoker, I've helped a number of them because of this and the mailbox mod fixed it right up.  So the mailbox mod is the sure fire approach.

If you are running 130/140 then the heat should create draft as it is hotter inside your smoker than outside so no need for an air assist mod, the draft does the trick.  
See I had to build my air assist mod because the air inside the smoker is not really hotter than outside the smoker when I cold smoke or it isn't hot enough to cause a draft on it's own since the heating element is not running.  The smoke would not want to exit and become stale and nasty.  So I built the contraption and solved the problem :)

The pellets can flare up in the mailbox mod but they also do so inside the MES as well.  You just have to make sure you don't get a bunch of gusting wind entering your mailbox mod so drill enough holes accordingly to handle the situation or make sure it doesn't get a bunch of direct wind.
My flare ups usually happen if I open the door really fast and check on something and that extra suction stokes the pellets and 5 minutes later I have a flare up.  Flare ups are easily handled with a mailbox mod though u just blow em out unless its a raging flare up then it just does what it does haha.

Make sure the 1st controller you linked can go over 210F degrees and you would at least want the 16A one as the MES40 element is 1200Watts.  I couldn't easily tell and in one of the reviews the guy states 210F max temp which would not be so great for smoking meat but would be fine if you wanted to do cold and warm smokes or just do sausage, jerky, and bacon lol.

The 2nd controller is only 10A so your MES would likely burn it up with the 1200Watt element, you generally want something a bit beefier and want to avoid being right at the limit of what the MES can pull for current.

You are on your way though.  Things are getting interesting :D


----------



## cmayna (Aug 23, 2021)

wrybread,
Sorry for my late reply.  Yesterday, the wife and I were was out past the Farallon Islands with a bunch of fishing buddies,  gathering limits of rock and Ling cod.   I'm exhausted.......

One of the reasons I use the mailbox is to allow me to check the pellets and more importantly change from Alder to Apple midway thru the smoke, without opening the smoker.  Those AmazeN trays works perfect with a mailbox.   I think once you practice using one, you will see a reduction of smoke which is a good thing for those who are generating too much smoke.  

Oh and to reply to a couple of your previous questions, for Salmon, I use a 5/1 ratio of dk brn sugar over non iodized salt.  Smoking time varies depends on the typical size of the pieces I'm smoking, but an average guess is 5 hours starting at 125 and ending at 145 degrees.

I use an Auber WS-1510 ELPM controller.

There are so many tricks of the trade and it's fun learning them, unless you're too busy out on the water chasin' them big ones


----------



## wrybread (Aug 27, 2021)

cmayna said:


> wrybread,
> Sorry for my late reply.  Yesterday, the wife and I were was out past the Farallon Islands with a bunch of fishing buddies,  gathering limits of rock and Ling cod.   I'm exhausted.......



Awesome! What a beautiful spot that is. 



> One of the reasons I use the mailbox is to allow me to check the pellets and more importantly change from Alder to Apple midway thru the smoke, without opening the smoker.  Those AmazeN trays works perfect with a mailbox.   I think once you practice using one, you will see a reduction of smoke which is a good thing for those who are generating too much smoke.



Interesting, I should try mixing in some alder. Any comments on how that affects it?

So far I'm finding that opening the BBQ doesn't have much effect on the amount of smoke in the smoker, so I don't mind the system. If I find a non galvanized mailbox though or some other container I might try it, since it is a bit of a hassle dealing wth the hose connection at the top of the mailbox. It gets fatigued with all the motion and I've had to re-attach it a couple of times.



> Oh and to reply to a couple of your previous questions, for Salmon, I use a 5/1 ratio of dk brn sugar over non iodized salt.  Smoking time varies depends on the typical size of the pieces I'm smoking, but an average guess is 5 hours starting at 125 and ending at 145 degrees.



Pretty much the same method I'm using. I'm thinking about making my brine a bit less salty since I'm eating so much smoked salmon now, ha. I'm worried about all the sodium. The salmon are back with a vengeance, and in the last two days I've caught almost 100 pounds of salmon! Yesterday was a quick limit with a 25 and ~10, and today was a 28 and a 25 before 9am.  Unbelievable fishing.

Yesterday:








Today:







I'm smoking some of the "dumpster cuts" now (the carcass after the filets have been removed), I'm going to make a separate post about that since it works so well and is basically limitless smoked salmon.



> I use an Auber WS-1510 ELPM controller.



Looks nice. Pricey but not to use stuff that isn't Chinese junk. I'm using that Pymeter, so far so good, but it can only handle 1200 watts. That's fine for my setup which uses a Big Chief heating element, which I think is about 400 watts. One nice thing about the unit is it has a built in high temperature alarm, so if it jumps up to 150 (which could only happen if the pellets flame up) it sounds an audible alarm. 



> There are so many tricks of the trade and it's fun learning them, unless you're too busy out on the water chasin' them big ones



Amen!

Incidentally I'm smoking right now with that pallet tube, since the maze hasn't arrived yet. I followed your instructions, filled it halfway and then turned it on it's side and lit it. What a joy to use that is compared to my old method. It's been on total auto pilot for hours now. With my old method I had to watch it like a hawk, now I don't even need to be near the thing.

And on a sidenote I just processed the row from the two hens. A couple of pics.

Start with these, which most fisherpeople throw away anyway:







Rub it on something to remove the eggs from the skeins. I use the same silverwware holder that I used to use in my smoker. Rub the eggs on that and the friction separates them. Can also use a tennis raquet, but those are harder to clean.






Then I strain it in a collander or finer if the eggs are small. I rinse it too, try to remove all the non egg stuff.







Then my brine is:

1.5 cups dashi (I subbed 1 teasepoon hondashi and half to ¾ cup water)
2 tablespoons soy sauce
1 tablespoon sake (or mirin)
1 tablespoon granulated sugar
1 tablespoon salt

I get the dashi or hondashi at an asian market.

Then you get this. The one on the left is the smaller eggs from the smaller salmon, and on the right is the larger eggs.







They're so much better than anything I've gotten at a sushi restaurant. I love it over rice on its own:







Or as part of sushi:


----------

