# Smoking venison sausage issues



## vids (Oct 1, 2012)

Hey all - I'm new here and have been slowly getting better at making venison sausage the last few years, but I'm still not quite there.  Here is what I've been doing, please offer suggestions for improvement.  I've also got a question regarding the optimal IT.

I've got a char-broil electric H20 smoker (cylinder type) and I know it has flaws, but with close monitoring I can keep the temps pretty stable.  One issue I have with the smoker is at lower temps (<180) it doesn't make much smoke, but I had more success this year by adding dry hickory sawdust at times.  I welcome suggestions on a better smoker to be able to create smoke at low temps and also be able to set a temp and walk away without constant monitoring.  (prefer $300 and under price range)

I have done various kinds of sausage - brats, polish, wieners, summer sausage, pepperoni.  (Not having issues with summer sausage, that has come out beautifully)  My trouble is anything I stuff in hog casings has been coming out a little dry.  My mix is about 12% pork fat mixed with elk/deer, I want to keep the fat on the low side to keep the sausage healthier than store bought.  I use insta-cure #1 and soy protein concentrate if the mix calls for it.  This year I smoked them at about 140 deg for 2 hours, then turned up the heat to bring the IT up to about 155.  Then immediate ice bath after that.  Anything I can improve here to make them juicier?  Anything to add?  I threw a can or two of beer in while mixing this year and it helped, any other suggestions?  I think I'm just never going to be able to make venison brats as juicy as a high fat store brat, but I want to get them as close as possible.

Regarding IT and preventing bacteria.  I read the 40 to 140 within 4 rule but I'm a little confused still.  Depending on the mix I am using, the instructions call for pulling the sausage anywhere from152 to 165 deg IT.  However, searching online I see that e coli isn't killed off until about 170 (depending on source).  At what temp is it really safe to stop cooking?  I'm worried that bringing up the temp too high is causing some of the dryness, but also want to make sure bacteria isn't a concern.

Also, I usually do a "beer bath" before grilling.  I simmer the brats for about an hour in a beer/butter/onion mix.  I think it helps, but the temp of that is close to boiling.  Is this hurting more than helping, would it actually pull liquid out or add liquid?

Any feedback is appreciated, I love making these and really want them to come out delicious so I don't have to buy brats anymore!


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## rexlan (Oct 1, 2012)

The beer bath is really overcooking them, probably rendering out what little fat you have.  Since they are already fully cooked to start this seems to be counter productive.

How do you figure you have 12% fat in your mix?  How much meat and how much fat?

IMO you need 20% with game meat or you are going to have dry product.  Get the fat up and eat less to compensate?


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## vids (Oct 1, 2012)

12% fat was calculated as:  10 lb batches, with 8.8 lb venison and 1.2 lb pork fat.

I'm hoping I don't have to go that high on the fat.  I'm sure that's a big part of it, but I hate to kill the benefits of eating venison by making it fatty.


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## rexlan (Oct 1, 2012)

I think you will find that even with 20% fat it is still superior to beef by a long shot.  Also higher in protein and about 1/2 the calories.

I mix the deer meat 60/40.  I use a fairly lean deer meat mix at 8-10% fat and mix it with 40% pork butt with no added fat.  This comes out pretty moist and good taste for me.  Could maybe try a 70/30.

I have a cuber machine and used to tenderize most of the game meat ( I only had Moose and Caribou) and cooked it like a chicken fried steak with onions, peppers and mushrooms.  Very lean good meal.  But, when it is sausage time then it didn't not work for me if it was too lean so I kicked the meat up to a 20% mix and then added in about 15% pork.

Others have said there is a fat substitute from sausage maker.  One has said you can add a little extra virgin olive oil.  I've not tried either.

The fat will render out if your smoker is over 180 degrees and then you sausage will get dry no matter how much fat you have.  Boiling them in water is just as bad IMO.  The fat melts at 180.


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## big casino (Oct 1, 2012)

Vids said:


> 12% fat was calculated as:  10 lb batches, with 8.8 lb venison and 1.2 lb pork fat.
> 
> I'm hoping I don't have to go that high on the fat.  I'm sure that's a big part of it, but I hate to kill the benefits of eating venison by making it fatty.


Sausage maker makes a product called fat replacer, check it out


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## metzger (Oct 1, 2012)

The ideal formulation for a venison sausage will be 12lbs Venison, 5.5lbs Lean Pork (Sow Meat is fine in this application) and 2.5lbs Pork Belly Fat.  You can certainly use back fat, however, the fat from the bellies is much softer and gives the sausage a smoother texture.  Back fat, on the other hand will more or less remain coarse based on the grinder plate size you use.

When I used to process wild game into sausages for a living, we added about 1 cup of ice water to each 20lb batch.  If you are losing 20% moisture to smoking, adding extra to start with will generally compensate for this.

In reply to your question about safe cooking temperatures, follow the guidelines as set forth by your local health agency.  Off the record, through experience and training, I can safely say that most of these guidelines are *cover your ass* rules.  I often omit cures when cold smoking sausages.  For example: Westfälische Bratwurst (Smoked Brat in Hog Casing) is simply Fresh Coarse Bratwurst, as are the Westfälische Pepperettes (Brat in Lamb Casing).  Pfefferbiesser which is a smoked sausage is simply the fresh Hot Italian once smoked.  A word of caution though.  There is a reason that we study butchery for 3 years in order to understand bacteria and cultures.  If you do not understand this completely, stick to the guidelines.  I cook the Kassler (Smoked Loins), Hams and Bacons to an internal temperature of 155.  They are sold ready to eat.  Again, this is entirely off the record and I do not recommend experimenting with potentially dangerous practices that you do not fully understand. (I think I covered my ass with that!!) 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Hope this is helpful.


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## shoneyboy (Oct 1, 2012)

Just here to learn something.....


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## smokinhusker (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm thinking for brats, you would want 80/20 at a minimum and 60/40 seems ideal IMHO. I start smoking my elk sausages at lower smoker temps (120*) and bump up hourly to no higher temp than 170* to an internal meat temp of 155*. I also use Cure #1. I have an MES 40 and love it for lower smoker temps for jerky, SS, snack sticks etc, paired with the AMNPS. 

Yep just saw the fat replacer in Sausage Maker's new catalog.


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## boykjo (Oct 2, 2012)

rexlan said:


> The beer bath is really overcooking them, probably rendering out what little fat you have.  Since they are already fully cooked to start this seems to be counter productive.
> 
> How do you figure you have 12% fat in your mix?  How much meat and how much fat?
> 
> IMO you need 20% with game meat or you are going to have dry product.  Get the fat up and eat less to compensate?










Metzger said:


> The ideal formulation for a venison sausage will be 12lbs Venison, 5.5lbs Lean Pork (Sow Meat is fine in this application) and 2.5lbs Pork Belly Fat.  You can certainly use back fat, however, the fat from the bellies is much softer and gives the sausage a smoother texture.  Back fat, on the other hand will more or less remain coarse based on the grinder plate size you use.
> 
> When I used to process wild game into sausages for a living, we added about 1 cup of ice water to each 20lb batch.  If you are losing 20% moisture to smoking, adding extra to start with will generally compensate for this.
> 
> ...


Hey Metzger. Your profile picture caught my eye.....  Welcome to SMF and were glad to have you aboard. How about swinging over to roll call and introducing yourself so we can give you a proper welcome and get to know you better

Joe


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## vids (Oct 2, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback.  Looks like I'm on the right track with my smoking temps, I will make sure to keep it under 180 and skip the beer bath from now on.

I'm still confused on the IT for sausage though.  The recommendations I see online for safe food practices say cook to 160 to kill off e coli, but everyone on here is saying 155.  Is it just a matter of people covering their butts with 160?  Or is it the addition of a curing agent that allows a lower safe IT?

Does the addition of instacure #1 actually dry out my brats too?  Looks like it removes moisture which retards spoilage.  So am I better off to add cure and smoke to 155 or skip the cure and go to 160ish?  Or does the cure just prevent spoilage later on while it's being refrigerated?


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## boykjo (Oct 2, 2012)

Vids said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  Looks like I'm on the right track with my smoking temps, I will make sure to keep it under 180 and skip the beer bath from now on.
> 
> I'm still confused on the IT for sausage though.  The recommendations I see online for safe food practices say cook to 160 to kill off e coli, but everyone on here is saying 155.  Is it just a matter of people covering their butts with 160? Yes.    Or is it the addition of a curing agent that allows a lower safe IT? no
> 
> Does the addition of instacure #1 actually dry out my brats too?  no  Looks like it removes moisture which retards spoilage. no   So am I better off to add cure and smoke to 155 or skip the cure and go to 160ish? no Or does the cure just prevent spoilage later on while it's being refrigerated? no


First off Vid welcome to SMF and were glad to have you aboard. The two most common sausages are fresh and cured. Some examples of fresh sausage is some johnsonville brats or some johnsonville sweet italian sausage you buy at the grocery. An example of cured sausage is hillshire farms smoked sausage or kielbasa. Fresh sausages can be hot smoked but not slow smoked. Adding cure allows sausage to be smoke for long periods of time with out allowing the growth of bacteria like ecoli.....

Joe


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## vids (Oct 3, 2012)

boykjo said:


> First off Vid welcome to SMF and were glad to have you aboard. The two most common sausages are fresh and cured. Some examples of fresh sausage is some johnsonville brats or some johnsonville sweet italian sausage you buy at the grocery. An example of cured sausage is hillshire farms smoked sausage or kielbasa. Fresh sausages can be hot smoked but not slow smoked. Adding cure allows sausage to be smoke for long periods of time with out allowing the growth of bacteria like ecoli.....
> 
> Joe


Is the 40 to 140 within 4 hours rule considered slow or hot smoked?


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## jkc64 (Oct 3, 2012)

Vids said:


> Is the 40 to 140 within 4 hours rule considered slow or hot smoked?


Either or both, the 40 to 140 is for uncured meats.


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## vids (Oct 3, 2012)

Okay, thanks.  So how long would people recommend smoking a cured venison brat?  I usually do 2 hours at about 140, then bump up to bring IT to 155.  Is this long enough or should I go a few more hours?  Or does it just depend on how much smoke I am creating, and I should stop it early enough to avoid over smoking them?


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## mballi3011 (Oct 3, 2012)

Fist off welcome vids to SMF. Theres a lot to learn here and if you need to know about sausage you have the right guys on the line in Joe. Boykjo knows his poop and his sausge is really good to believe me.


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## boykjo (Oct 3, 2012)

Some start at lower temps like 100 to 120 some start at 140 and hold their start temp for 2 hrs then bump up 10 degrees every hr. Recently I have been cold smoking for the first few hrs allowing the sausage to come to ambient temp with no heat with smoke. (make sure the sausages are dry ) Then start out at 140 with smoke, bump 10 degrees every hr and do not exceed 170 smoker temp. Bring the internal temp of the sausage to 160 to be sure all of the sausage has reached a safe temperature. From what I remember sausage has to be cooked to an IT of around 148  to kill bacteria but needes to be cooked to 160 for safe consumption......


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## smokinhusker (Oct 3, 2012)

boykjo said:


> Some start at lower temps like 100 to 120 some start at 140 and hold their start temp for 2 hrs then bump up 10 degrees every hr. Recently I have been cold smoking for the first few hrs allowing the sausage to come to ambient temp with no heat with smoke. (make sure the sausages are dry ) Then start out at 140 with smoke, bump 10 degrees every hr and do not exceed 170 smoker temp. Bring the internal temp of the sausage to 160 to be sure all of the sausage has reached a safe temperature. From what I remember sausage has to be cooked to an IT of around 148  to kill bacteria but needes to be cooked to 160 for safe consumption......


Sounds like a good idea and I'll have to try it with your kielbasa that I just mixed up!


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## shoneyboy (Oct 4, 2012)

mballi3011 said:


> Fist off welcome vids to SMF. Theres a lot to learn here and if you need to know about sausage you have the right guys on the line in Joe. Boykjo knows his poop and his sausge is really good to believe me.


2 X's


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