# Rendered fat.....whats wrong?



## jkc64 (Dec 11, 2012)

First I would like to thank everyone here at SMF. Without this site I wouldn't have a clue what I was doing or how safe it was.

I have made several summer sausages, snack sticks and cured sausage. Most have come out pretty good some have been real good. I follow the advice I find here on the site, measure cure watch my temps start without smoke to dry and add smoke for as long as I want. I use Lem and AC Legg seasonings as they are available local for me. Until a couple of weeks ago I have only used various mixes of ground chuck 80/20, ground round 90/10 and ground pork. A few weeks ago I received about 25lbs of ground venison no fat added. I tried sticks first 4lbs lean venison with 1lb pork fat(the hard fat off the cap on a butt) smoked as usual not exceeding 165 and all the fat rendered out. Next I wanted to try something different so I mixed up a small batch of SS, 20% of the same fat I used before. This time I wanted to try poaching I put the SS in a water bath and worked the temps up to about 160-164 till IT hit 153 and put in the ice water again all of the fat was rendered out. Both taste pretty good but are somewhat dry and crumbly, I assume this is because all the fat is gone. I use Lem 1 1/2 X 12 fibrous for the SS and Lem 17mm or local 19-21mm collagen for the sticks. The beef and beef/pork turn out good either way but the venison won't hold the fat. I use ET732 thermos that I check from time to time for accuracy. Sorry so long winded, I'm just trying to provide all relevant info so maybe someone can help with my fat issue.

Thanks,

John


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## boykjo (Dec 12, 2012)

Are you seeing fat drippings below the sausages? Sounds like your not getting a good bind..... Venison has a lot of moisture which will add to shrinkage. If the venison was preveously frozen for a long period of time, it could be a reason for crumbly sausage..

how about some pics


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

Not much fat escapes from the casing, it is pooled up between the meat and casing. I had to cut and drain. The meat is frozen and is less than a month old. It is very WET meat. I don't have any pics(I know, shame on me) What can be done to increase the bind? I would like to make something besides jerky with this meat.

John


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## driedstick (Dec 12, 2012)

??? On elk and deer we never add fat when we butcher but when I do sticks or ss I do about the same, 9lbs of lean venison and 1lb of PORK SAUSGE NO SEASONING?? don't know if this would help or not but maybe it acts as a better binder, mine come out very well all the time.

I hope this helps.


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

I just don't understand why the fat would melt out at such a low temp compared to other things I have made. I guess I'll have to try mixing with ground pork and see what happens. I didn't want to mix with other meat which is why I went with fat only.

Thanks

John


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## lnmnmarty (Dec 12, 2012)

jkc64 said:


> First I would like to thank everyone here at SMF. Without this site I wouldn't have a clue what I was doing or how safe it was.
> 
> I have made several summer sausages, snack sticks and cured sausage. Most have come out pretty good some have been real good. I follow the advice I find here on the site, measure cure watch my temps start without smoke to dry and add smoke for as long as I want. I use Lem and AC Legg seasonings as they are available local for me. Until a couple of weeks ago I have only used various mixes of ground chuck 80/20, ground round 90/10 and ground pork. A few weeks ago I received about 25lbs of ground venison no fat added. I tried sticks first 4lbs lean venison with 1lb pork fat(the hard fat off the cap on a butt) smoked as usual not exceeding 165 and all the fat rendered out. Next I wanted to try something different so I mixed up a small batch of SS, 20% of the same fat I used before. This time I wanted to try poaching I put the SS in a water bath and worked the temps up to about 160-164 till IT hit 153 and put in the ice water again all of the fat was rendered out. Both taste pretty good but are somewhat dry and crumbly, I assume this is because all the fat is gone. I use Lem 1 1/2 X 12 fibrous for the SS and Lem 17mm or local 19-21mm collagen for the sticks. The beef and beef/pork turn out good either way but the venison won't hold the fat. I use ET732 thermos that I check from time to time for accuracy. Sorry so long winded, I'm just trying to provide all relevant info so maybe someone can help with my fat issue.
> 
> ...


Hi John, no expert here but had a similar issue with snack sticks. Ground beef chuck and added a pound or so of the hard fat from a brisket. Those were much greasier than the ones I usually make without adding fat. Maybe the hard fat has a lower melting point. Just guessing here. I never use binders and never had the fat render out except that one time and that wasn't really all that bad. Only other thing I can think of is your temp probe but you said you check it. I have heard that if you don't freeze the fat some before you grind, it will smear and render out when heated. I'm sure the experts will chime in. 

 I wish someone would help me with my fat issues


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## rexlan (Dec 12, 2012)

How are you grinding the meat and the fat.  For the sticks it probably needs to be pretty fine. 

With the deer I grind with a 3/8 or 1/2 plate - meat and fat.  Then I almost freeze it and regrind with a 7mm plate.  this makes a nicely mixed product of 80/20 venison burger which I use as a base.

I then will use ~ 70% of the venison burger and 30% pork butt for a final product.  Could try and 80/20 I guess.  I've never had any issue with this.  Can also add a little NFDM as an additional binder.

I know with the moose when I add 20% fat to the burger it still is quite dry and the meat really does not absorb the fat.  All the sting with bacon and those bits do not product a juicy venison roast ... they are always quite dry because the meat will not take the fat.


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

The deer is already ground, I ground the fat(almost frozen) through a course plate(don't know the size) on an antique hand grinder then reground with the deer. Guess I can't have pure deer sausage?


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## diggingdogfarm (Dec 12, 2012)

Did you grind and then mix immediately?



~Martin


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

This batch I ground and cured for a day then mixed seasoning and stuffed-cooked


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## diggingdogfarm (Dec 12, 2012)

Hmmmm... it usually binds better when you do that, some times frozen meat doesn't bind as well as fresh.



~Martin


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

Does the bind effect how the fat reacts to temps?


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## diggingdogfarm (Dec 12, 2012)

You may be getting some smearing, in that case, even with a very good bind it's a serious issue.
I looked upthread and noticed that you ground the fat separately.
Grinding the fat separately can easily lead to smear, fat doesn't go through a grinder as easily as meat does, the colder it is the worse it travels through the grinder, it tends to hang and smear.
You could try couple things.....grind the fat with the lean (preferable unground chunks)....it'll go through the grinder better and is less likely to smear or finely dice the fat when lightly frozen.
Use the best fat you can find, back fat is best.

~Martin


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

I know, lots of questions. Sorry, just trying to learn. So if I manage to smear the fat before or during the mixing process it will render out easier and faster where if I can keep it in some form of chunk it will stand up to the temps better?


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## diggingdogfarm (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, exactly.
Fat is naturally enclosed in tissue and won't easily render out, smearing it out of the tissue will lead to 'fat out' of the sausage, even with a good bind.
Hard fat like back fat is the least likely to render out.



~Martin


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## venture (Dec 12, 2012)

I grind fat and lean together in most applications.  Being sure everything is cold.

Did you start your heat low and gradually increase?

Got me scratchin my head here?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## deersmoker58 (Dec 12, 2012)

for what it's worth, i never add fat to my venison.  Have made summer sausage several times and don't have an issue with the fat rendering.  Although you said that you dont let he temp get above 165 you didn't mention what temps you start out with.  You must start at a lower temp (120) and gradually increase the temp over a period of a couple of hours.

here is the link of a thread on some i did.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/115409/venison-summer-sausage-in-mes-40


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

Sounds like the smear factor got me. THANKS all for the replies. I will try a small batch with chopped fat and also try grinding fat chunks with the ground deer at the same time rather than separately and see what happens. I mentioned earlier that the deer meat is very wet much more than moist. Is this a problem? If so what should I go...add soy protein to the premix to compensate?


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

deersmoker58 said:


> for what it's worth, i never add fat to my venison.  Have made summer sausage several times and don't have an issue with the fat rendering.  Although you said that you dont let he temp get above 165 you didn't mention what temps you start out with.  You must start at a lower temp (120) and gradually increase the temp over a period of a couple of hours.
> 
> here is the link of a thread on some i did.
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/115409/venison-summer-sausage-in-mes-40


Nice looking sausage. You say that you don't add any fat and don't have an issue with fat rendering. Do you mean there is no fat in the meat or that you don't add any extra? My deer was processed with no fat some processors add fat as part of the processing. I smoke in a mes 30 or mes 40 (the 40 is a new acquisition, rebuild be me) I start my temp at 100 on the controller(which means 120 to 130 lol ) then work my way up to about 165 actual(ET732) over several hours. Usually takes 7 to 10 hours to get an IT on 152 also measured with an ET732.


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## shoneyboy (Dec 12, 2012)

If the meat being too wet is a real concern, I would allow it to drain in a strainer in the frig over night....Strainer sitting in a bowl to catch the drippings......Just my thought....ShoneyBoy


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## jkc64 (Dec 12, 2012)

Shoneyboy said:


> If the meat being too wet is a real concern, I would allow it to drain in a strainer in the frig over night....Strainer sitting in a bowl to catch the drippings......Just my thought....ShoneyBoy


I don't know enough to know if this a factor or not. It was brought up earlier that ground deer is very moist. I don't know if this contributes to binding issues or not. I'm just trying to provide all info to find a resolution to my problem. I think the main problem is how I handled the fat. Thanks!


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## shoneyboy (Dec 12, 2012)

I’ve never had a real concern about my meat being too wet……Just don’t add a lot of additional water….I mix my meat, seasonings and a little water…..Stuff it and allow it to sit in the refrigerator overnight……Are you allowing your sausage come up to room temperature before starting to smoke it ? It needs to “dry out” a bit before you start smoking it also…….


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## deersmoker58 (Dec 15, 2012)

The only fat in the meat is what is on the deer.  The processor does not add fat and I don't add any either.  It's 100% deer only.  That is pretty much the same process i follow.  Give it a try without adding any fat and see what happens. 

The first time i tried it I started the temp too high and what little fat from the deer rendered and settled in the bottom of the casings.


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## shannon127 (Dec 15, 2012)

Deer fat is pretty hardcore...like suet X10.  Looking at your Summer sausage photos that deer must have been corn fed.  The last buck I shot did not have that much fat over his entire body.  I have to come down to Maryland to do some hunting.  Great looking sausage


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## deersmoker58 (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks!  And you are correct.  corn, soy beans, and such.  They taste much better than the mountain deer i used to hunt in SW Virginia!


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## shannon127 (Dec 15, 2012)

Hmmmm....small cow with antlers!!


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## boykjo (Dec 16, 2012)

I assume you had something like this













fat out.jpg



__ boykjo
__ Dec 16, 2012


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## jkc64 (Dec 16, 2012)

boykjo said:


> I assume you had something like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Had I let it cool I guess it would have. I have had a few beef sausages come out like that. I wish I had pics to show you, when I took the ss out of the poach I could feel the ss floating in about an 1/8 inch of fluid all the was around the inside of the casing. I cut it open and drained all the fat then rinsed good in hot water and dried. It has a good taste but there is no fat in it whatsoever. I guess that makes it healthy.


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## exromenyer (Dec 17, 2012)

jkc64 said:


> First I would like to thank everyone here at SMF. Without this site I wouldn't have a clue what I was doing or how safe it was.
> I have made several summer sausages, snack sticks and cured sausage. Most have come out pretty good some have been real good. I follow the advice I find here on the site, measure cure watch my temps start without smoke to dry and add smoke for as long as I want. I use Lem and AC Legg seasonings as they are available local for me. Until a couple of weeks ago I have only used various mixes of ground chuck 80/20, ground round 90/10 and ground pork. A few weeks ago I received about 25lbs of ground venison no fat added. I tried sticks first 4lbs lean venison with 1lb pork fat(the hard fat off the cap on a butt) smoked as usual not exceeding 165 and all the fat rendered out. Next I wanted to try something different so I mixed up a small batch of SS, 20% of the same fat I used before. This time I wanted to try poaching I put the SS in a water bath and worked the temps up to about 160-164 till IT hit 153 and put in the ice water again all of the fat was rendered out. Both taste pretty good but are somewhat dry and crumbly, I assume this is because all the fat is gone. I use Lem 1 1/2 X 12 fibrous for the SS and Lem 17mm or local 19-21mm collagen for the sticks. The beef and beef/pork turn out good either way but the venison won't hold the fat. I use ET732 thermos that I check from time to time for accuracy. Sorry so long winded, I'm just trying to provide all relevant info so maybe someone can help with my fat issue.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...



John,

I'll chime in here.  I'm no expert, YET, but I did 4lbs venison burger, 1lb pork fat cap from a boston butt... I ran the pork thru the grinder and then hand mixed the venison in with it.  I read some of the other guys comments and maybe sending the pieces of pork fat thru the grinder with some venison in it would help make sure it doesn't break down.  I also mixed the seasoning and water in by hand also as I have found running it thru the grinder to much almost emulsify's it.

Here is thread I posted and my Snack sticks came out awesome.....i had a few questions on my post but regarding the temp gauge.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/132363/venison-snack-sticks-qview-and-questions

Tony


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## jkc64 (Dec 17, 2012)

exromenyer said:


> John,
> I'll chime in here. I'm no expert, YET, but I did 4lbs venison burger, 1lb pork fat cap from a boston butt... I ran the pork thru the grinder and then hand mixed the venison in with it. I read some of the other guys comments and maybe sending the pieces of pork fat thru the grinder with some venison in it would help make sure it doesn't break down. I also mixed the seasoning and water in by hand also as I have found running it thru the grinder to much almost emulsify's it.
> Here is thread I posted and my Snack sticks came out awesome.....i had a few questions on my post but regarding the temp gauge.
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/132363/venison-snack-sticks-qview-and-questions
> Tony


Those look like some good sticks. I am pretty sure that grinding the fat the way I did is the culprit, of many sticks, link sausage and lots of summer sausage have come out pretty good. I have had my share of fat outs but this time it was like the sausage was floating inside the casing.

Thanks all for the replies, I'll try to start getting some pics so I can show what I am doing rather than tryibng to explain it.

john


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## checkerfred (Feb 15, 2013)

I have this same problem and have tried everything....I've tried grinding the fat with the deer and it didn't work...yesterday I made some and used fatback from a hog we slaughtered....ground with the deer...the fat was mostly frozen but I could still cut it into chunks..the deer was already ground...it just doesn't wanna hold the fat....I'm at a loss....I'm thinking of trying to mix 30% pork butt with the deer


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 15, 2013)

checkerfred said:


> I'm thinking of trying to mix 30% pork butt with the deer



50% would be even better, preferably meat that hasn't been previously frozen because sometimes it doesn't bind as well as fresh.
Also, fat doesn't have to be warm to smear. sometimes using fat that's too cold can be counterproductive because it doesn't move through the grinder as easily and can smear.


~Martin


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## checkerfred (Feb 15, 2013)

I may try that then....would adding some kind of binder help? All of my deer is frozen...actually all of my meat is because we have our own beef/hogs slaughtered and I process my deer


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't use binders, but many folks do.

~Martin


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## jkc64 (Feb 15, 2013)

Suprised to see this thread pop back up. I took a couple of bad pics of the sticks I made just to show. They taste great but are dry and crumbly. I haven't made any deer sticks since these so I haven't had a chance to try a different process.













IMG_20130215_203128_688.jpg



__ jkc64
__ Feb 15, 2013


















IMG_20130215_203139_149.jpg



__ jkc64
__ Feb 15, 2013






I peeled the casing off and have enjoyed them very much. I almost like them enough to want to repeat my mistake.


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## checkerfred (Feb 15, 2013)

Well just finished my ss and after wiping off what seemed to be like a 1/4 inch of melted fat it tasted good...and surprisingly it had some fat still inside the meat...better than what i made last time but still not where i want it to be.....my snack sticks seem better...one recipe called for nf dry milk but i dont think it made a difference


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## BGKYSmoker (Feb 16, 2013)

To high of a temp causing a fat-out making the casing separate from the meat causing the fat to cavitate between the casing and meat. This makes for a dry crumbly sausage.


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## checkerfred (Feb 16, 2013)

So what should be the highest temp you go up to for bringing the sausage temp to 152 degrees? My recipe says 165 i think but I've read not to go higher than 170 (smoker temp that is).I've tried staying at 160 but even after about 10-12 hrs it's still only at 135-140 internal temp


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