# Jerky temp and time for smoker



## farwest

New to the forum. I got my first smoker last week and now I'm going to try my first smoke. I went with a Green Mountain Daniel Boone electric pellet smoker. I got me some HI_mountain cure/seasoning for the first time. My plan is to slice the beef 1/4 thick and marinate for 24-28 hours, than smoke at 180 for 4-5 hours or till done which I'm not sure when that is. Questions are is the time and temp going to work? What should I look for to know its done, internal temp? texture? Smoker will go as low as 150 degrees. Thanks for any tips and info.


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## sawinredneck

I did mine at 180 for the first 5-6hrs, then ramped it up to 220 for the last 3hrs as I was cooking a brisket and ribs as well.
My seasoning/curing kit said to reach an internal temp of 165. I've heard to cook it until it's dry on the outside but will still stretch some, I don't know, the 165 IT worked well for me.
My next round I plan to hold at 180-200 for 8-9hrs and see how that goes but I still plan on going for the 165 temp.


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## twoalpha

Farwest

Lots of ways to do jerky for sure.

 The thickness of the slices is going to be part of the answer as to when it is done. The thicker the slice the long it takes along with the temperature of the smoke. When you can stand it no longer pull a piece let it cool and check the taste and texture. By this time you can now pull another piece and repeat till you reach the results you want. I also know that the temps on my MES are very close to actual and you should check yours out for accuracy.

Here is a link to the beef jerky I recently posted for your inspection.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/231590/beef-jerky-on-the-mes

Larry


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## farwest

Thanks for the help. I will have to check out the actual temp with my calibrated RTD.


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## dirtsailor2003

I use the same approach I take when smoking sausage. I start the smoker out as low as I can go which is 120°. I run the smoker at that temp for one hour no smoke. This helps dry the moisture off the meat. Then I add smoke and ramp the heat up to 130°. I continue the smoke for 6-8 hours. Every hour I ramp the temp up 10° until I get to a pit temp of 180°. That is where I stop it, any higher and risk rendering the fat out. I let it run until I get the texture I like. Depending on the meat and thickness this can take 8-16 hours. Keep in mind that with this method you need to use cure.

Give this thread a read.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/227772/london-broil-we-aint-gonna-let-spoil


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## farwest

Do you flip the jerky on the racks at all during the smoking process? Sorry for the dumb questions in advance.













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__ farwest
__ Aug 7, 2015


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## smokingohiobutcher

You can flip if you want to. Remember the key to jerky is to dry the jerky not cook it. As long as you are using cure. I start mine about 130* and smoke for about5-6 hours then finish at 150* for another 2-3 hours. 1/4 " slice.  

Good luck.

SOB


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## farwest

Yes I am using cure. The lowest my smoker goes is 150 and that where I have it now.


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## dirtsailor2003

Farwest said:


> Yes I am using cure. The lowest my smoker goes is 150 and that where I have it now.



You're on track and it's looking good! I normally flip once early on as the moisture will rise to the top. Keep checking by bending the strips for texture. You will need to up the temp though as you need the meat to get above 156. If your out temp is lower that won't happen. Long process, but I see some good jerky there!


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## farwest

I was planning on doing 150 for a few hours than switching to 160 than 170 to finish.


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## farwest

So when I do checks on the jerky what am I looking for in the texture? I should bend it and see flaking or something else?


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## dirtsailor2003

You only left one thing out, bite it, chew it swallow it. That's it!


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## farwest

Well here it is 6 hours total first smoke ever, 150 for 4 than 160 for 1 than 170 for 1 hour. I may of overcook or smoked it, I made sure the internal was over 160, is that correct?

wasover 16













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__ farwest
__ Aug 7, 2015


















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__ farwest
__ Aug 7, 2015


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## daveomak

Internal temp of 160 is good for ground meat...  145 is good for whole muscle meat.....   Dave


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## sawinredneck

Looks good! In fact, a lot better than the mess I made today. Against my better judgment I opted to smoke jerky today, 96deg with 50% humidity! I fought and fought to keep temps down, even used wet wood. Epic fail!  4 1/2hrs at 210, it tastes like....., well, not good!
Next time I'll stay up all night, it's a LOT better at 180 or lower.
We live, we learn.


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## farwest

So 145 internal temp is safe?


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## dirtsailor2003

Farwest said:


> So 145 internal temp is safe?



Yes as long as it's not ground meat or poultry.


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## farwest

Thanks a lot!


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## muralboy

Did my first jerky today as well - 160 deg for about 4 hrs.  Wasn't sure what to expect but definitely yummy













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__ muralboy
__ Aug 9, 2015


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## farwest

How thick it you cut those strips?


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## muralboy

1/4" thick - kind of took the queue from several of the comments I've seen on the forum.  

I really appreciate the collective brain trust and experience here.

thanks!!!


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## lil tom

How the heck do you keep the meat so red. Every time I let mine cure for 48 hours it turns gray and ugly looking. It tastes good but I think the appearance could be more pleasing.


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## muralboy

I'm using a wet cure for about 8-10 hrs. Plenty of flavor and salt


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## valleypoboy

Can anyone explain the "no smoke" for the first hour? I understand that the meat will be wet when first put in, but that's when you'll get the best smoke penetrating too. Is it a worry of over smoking the meat?


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## tropics

valleypoboy said:


> Can anyone explain the "no smoke" for the first hour? I understand that the meat will be wet when first put in, but that's when you'll get the best smoke penetrating too. Is it a worry of over smoking the meat?


Lets the meat dry so it will take on smoke

Richie


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## daveomak

valleypoboy said:


> Can anyone explain the "no smoke" for the first hour? *I understand that the meat will be wet when first put in, but that's when you'll get the best smoke penetrating too*. Is it a worry of over smoking the meat?




That's not what I find to be true...   Pellicle tacky surface is the best for good, clean tasting, not acrid, smoke flavor....


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## muralboy

I pat it dry to remove the excess moisture, not worried about getting it dry.  Smoke is going right away.  about 2-3 hours.  Turned once or twice throughout the smoke moving pieces around depending on hot spots.


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## kooltimes

That that temperature appears high to me.  You will cook rather than dry the jerky.  160 degrees is more like it for about 4 - 5 hours.


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## hayskip

I'm confused. You talk about internal temp. But on jerky it is so thin you I you get a thermometer into he center.


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## daveomak

hayskip said:


> I'm confused. You talk about internal temp. But on jerky it is so thin you I you get a thermometer into he center.


In the case of jerky, you just have to make an educational guess on the IT...  the bacteria still needs to be killed for food safety....  On relatively thin meats, time at a lower temperature will suffice...   below is a chart that shows the time meat has to be at a given internal temp to pasteurize it...   using the chart, meats can still be moist without overcooking....
FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks April 2009

Temp °F / Time for 5.0 log Reduction

Unit Time

130..........86 min.

131 ..........69 min.

132......... 55 min.

133.......... 44 min.

134.......... 35 min.

135.......... 28 min.

136 ..........22 min.

137 ..........18 min.

138 ..........14 min.

139.......... 11 min.

140 ...........9 min.

141........... 7 min.

142 ...........6 min.

143 ...........5 min.

144 ...........4 min.

145 ...........3 min.

146 .........130 sec.

147......... 103 sec.

148 ...........82 sec.

149 ...........65 sec.

150........... 52 sec.

151........... 41 sec.

152........... 33 sec.

153 ...........26 sec.

154 ...........21 sec.

155 ...........17 sec.

156 ...........14 sec.

157 ...........11 sec.

158 .............0 sec.

159 .............0 sec.

160 .............0 sec.

The required lethalities are achieved instantly when the internal temperature of a cooked meat product reaches 158 °F or above. Humidity must be considered when using this Time/Temperature table.

This Time/Temperature table is based on Thermal Death Curve for Salmonella in Beef Emulsions in tubes (Derived from Goodfellow & Brown1, 1978) Regulatory Curve obtained from Jerry Carosella, Deputy Director, Microbiology Division, Science and Technology. All times that were a fraction of a minute or second was rounded up to the next whole number (e.g., 16.2 seconds for 155 °F was round up to 17 seconds).

________________________ 1. Goodfellow, S. J. and W. L. Brown. 1978. Fate of Salmonella Inoculated into Beef for Cooking. Journal of Food Protection. 41:598-605.
Poultry Time and Temp

　

Temperature........

...................... Time

°F (°C).............. 12% fat

136 (57.8)......... 81.4 min

137 (58.3)........ 65.5 min

138 (58.9)........ 52.9 min

139 (59.4)........ 43 min

140 (60.0)........ 35 min

141 (60.6)........ 28.7 min

142 (61.1)........ 23.7 min

143 (61.7)........ 19.8 min

144 (62.2)........ 16.6 min

145 (62.8)........ 13.8 min

146 (63.3)........ 11.5 min

148 (64.4)........ 7.7 min

150 (65.6)........ 4.9 min

152 (66.7)........ 2.8 min

154 (67.8)........ 1.6 min

156 (68.9)........ 1 min

158 (70.0)........ 40.9 sec

160 (71.1)........ 26.9 sec

162 (72.2)........ 17.7 sec

164 (73.3)........ 11.7 sec

166 (74.4)........ 0 sec

Table C.2: Pasteurization times for a 7D reduction in Salmonella for chicken and turkey (FSIS, 2005).

　
Temperature Time Temperature Time
°F (°C) (Minutes) °F (°C) (Seconds)

130 (54.4) 112 min... 146 (63.3) 169 sec
131 (55.0) 89 min.... 147 (63.9) 134 sec
132 (55.6) 71 min.... 148 (64.4) 107 sec
133 (56.1) 56 min.... 149 (65.0) 85 sec
134 (56.7) 45 min.... 150 (65.6) 67 sec
135 (57.2) 36 min.... 151 (66.1) 54 sec
136 (57.8) 28 min.... 152 (66.7) 43 sec
137 (58.4) 23 min.... 153 (67.2) 34 sec
138 (58.9) 18 min.... 154 (67.8) 27 sec
139 (59.5) 15 min.... 155 (68.3) 22 sec
140 (60.0) 12 min.... 156 (68.9) 17 sec
141 (60.6) 9 min...... 157 (69.4) 14 sec
142 (61.1) 8 min...... 158 (70.0) 0 sec
143 (61.7) 6 min.......
144 (62.2) 5 min.......
145 (62.8) 4 min.......

Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).


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## hayskip

Thanks Dave.


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## sigmo

I second the thanks to Dave!

It's great to have wise advice about all of this.

I read something from a link I found posted on this forum somewhere, where they made the point that you need to pasteurize the meat before it dries because some of the "bugs" go into a more hardy, heat-resistant state once they've been dried.

This is the link:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...631a/Seminar_Jerky_Guidelines.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Reading that kind of spooked me because I don't think I've been getting the internal temperature high enough while the jerky is still wet to achieve what they wanted in that publication.  But I also realize that they're shooting for a "shelf stable" product that will keep for long periods at room temperature.  I have been storing my jerky in the freezer (vacuum sealed) or in the refrigerator for the stuff we're working on.  And I will keep some out at room temperature for up to a day or so, and I've had no problems.  And the stuff has been delicious, too!  :)

BUT:  I also use cure #1 in the marinade, and that must qualify as an anti-microbial agent.  So I figure that's got to help.

Still, that publication was pretty strict.

I worked on a temperature control system for a smoker in a small meat packing plant one time many years ago.  It was interesting to get a tour of the place.  They took sanitation very seriously.  But what was interesting, too, (although I didn't understand the full ramifications at that time) was that this big smoker did use steam injection and some kind of water spray system.

I don't think they did jerky, but they may have.  Mainly, they made sausage.  I was under the impression, at the time, that the water and steam was to wash off the outsides of the sausages and keep them from drying out.  I didn't think about this idea that you need to have the high humidity present in order to effectively kill the bacteria.  Reading that link above makes me think that another benefit of the steam/water injection was to assure adequate lethality.

Naturally, I don't do anything like that when I'm making my own jerky.

Nor do I oven cook it at 275 for ten minutes as the "post-drying heat step".

But again, I don't consider my jerky to be "shelf stable" at room temperature, and I am using cure #1, and that document never mentions the use of nitrite.

It's all somewhat confusing.

What do you guys (especially Dave) think?


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## daveomak

I think it is important to submit any safety precaution to the meat you are preparing...   from sanitizing the prep zone, wearing gloves, cleaning the equipment etc...   Whole muscle meats are basically sterile on the inside...   when you cut into them, the cut surface is compromised...

Smoking meats requires cure #1 to prevent botulism from fish to beef, poultry and pork etc...  from observation to smell, as far as I know, we can't detect botulism...  it's even in dirt...   potatoes, garlic etc...  I don't know if cure #1 has a place on veggies but it couldn't hurt when low oxygen atmosphere packaging is being used...   I'll have to dig up on that...

Non smoked meats, such as dehydrator jerky, need a pasteurization process...  160 ish in the brining liquid is a good one...  then into the dehydrator....   or elevated temps in the dehydrator or oven until the pasteurization process is done then into the dehydrator to finish...  before the meat dries out... 

Now I know all this sounds like BS... but, when your kid gets one of those exotic pathogens you'll kick yourself for a long time.....

The absolute worst argument against any of this is, "I been doin' it this way all my life and never got sick."....   Well I'm sure some folks aren't alive to tell us their story...   or don't want to admit their kids got really sick because they didn't follow good safe food handling practices...

Anywho.....  I'm just here reading stuff and passing on what I think is worth posting...  I'm no food police... just interested in learning...    take it for what it is worth to you, and don't gimme any krap over it...  













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__ daveomak
__ Aug 14, 2016





..............


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## hayskip

Dave no krap needed to give. I love the info I recieve. We all need the folks that do the reading and passing along of the info.


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## daveomak

hayskip said:


> Dave no krap needed to give. I love the info I recieve. We all need the folks that do the reading and passing along of the info.


Some folks don't see it that way....    Thanks very much.....


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## sigmo

I agree.

Everything related to food safety should be taken very seriously.

I hope nobody gives you any crap over posting anything related to this subject!  It's all welcome and important in my opinion.

I'm still confused, though.

It seems that I should be bringing my jerky up to 160° while it's in the marinade before I hang it in the smoker.  Then, after it's smoked and dried, I should also be baking it in the oven at 275° for ten minutes.  That way, I'm meeting the guidelines for lethality set forth in that document.

However, they don't mention using nitrite - which I do, because I always use cure #1 for jerky, as recommended by many on here.

I just want to make sure I'm being as safe as necessary when I make my jerky.


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## daveomak

Sigmo said:


> I agree.
> 
> Everything related to food safety should be taken very seriously.
> 
> I hope nobody gives you any crap over posting anything related to this subject!  It's all welcome and important in my opinion.
> 
> I'm still confused, though.
> 
> It seems that I should be bringing my jerky up to 160° while it's in the marinade before I hang it in the smoker.  Then, after it's smoked and dried, I should also be baking it in the oven at 275° for ten minutes.  That way, I'm meeting the guidelines for lethality set forth in that document.
> 
> *While in the brine, taking to 160 kills all the bacteria...   that is the only step you need to do....    The 275 deg thing is for commercial manufacturers that may, inadvertently, dry their jerky prior to bacteria being killed...*
> 
> However, they don't mention using nitrite - which I do, because I always use cure #1 for jerky, as recommended by many on here.
> 
> *Nitrite additions are two fold....  enhancing the flavor of meat and prohibiting the formation of botulism in an oxygen reduced environment such as a smoker...   dehydrators have plenty of oxygen and botulism is not a problem....*
> 
> I just want to make sure I'm being as safe as necessary when I make my jerky.


Ask away if I missed anything.....   Dave


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## sigmo

That makes sense.

And certain smokers may be even more oxygen-deprived than others due to the burning of the fuels and the smoking wood, etc.  So it seems like a very reasonable precaution to use the nitrite cure.

What I have not been doing, but certainly will in the future, is to bring the meat up to 160 while it is in the brine so I'm sure to properly pasteurize it before smoking it.

I'm glad that you posted that link and those charts.  I love the home-made jerky.  But the last thing any of us needs is to get (or worse, give someone else) some foodborne illness!  That would take all of the fun right out of it!

Do you recommend heating the meat/brine before or after the soak phase of the brining?   

Would the heating be best done at the beginning, to get everything killed right off, and maybe get best penetration of the brine, too?

Or do we want to murder the bacteria as close in time to the smoking as possible? 

Botulism, like some other bacterial food poisoning, is particularly nasty because it creates a toxin that can kill even if you subsequently cook to a high temperature because the toxin is not destroyed by cooking.  Yechhh!  :)

Scary stuff.

Tabbed in.


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## daveomak

_What I have not been doing, but certainly will in the future, is to bring the meat up to 160 while it is in the brine so I'm sure to properly pasteurize it before smoking it.

I'm glad that you posted that link and those charts._
Looking at the charts, when you add the meat to the brine, and say you are going to marinate for 24 hours or so in the refer, after the brining time heat the meat in the brine to one of the recommended time / temps to insure it is pasteurized...   or to 160 for zero seconds and you are good to go....


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## sigmo

DaveOmak said:


> _What I have not been doing, but certainly will in the future, is to bring the meat up to 160 while it is in the brine so I'm sure to properly pasteurize it before smoking it.
> 
> I'm glad that you posted that link and those charts._
> Looking at the charts, when you add the meat to the brine, and say you are going to marinate for 24 hours or so in the refer, after the brining time heat the meat in the brine to one of the recommended time / temps to insure it is pasteurized...   or to 160 for zero seconds and you are good to go....


OK.  So we should do the pasteurization at the end of the marinating phase.

I'll give that a try next time.  I marinaded the last batch for 48 hours all in one huge vacuum-sealed bag (another reason for using the cure).  It was heavy!  It had about 10.7 pounds of meat in it, plus the marinade!

A guy could just dump that mixture out into a covered pot and heat it in the oven until all of it reaches 160°.

Or, I might do it in more smaller bags next time, and then I could just take them out of the fridge and drop them into a sous vide bath at the desired bug-killing temperature for long enough to get the contents up to the desired temperature for long enough to get the job done.

You'd just want to make sure that all of the meat/marinade actually gets to the correct temperature for the required length of time.

Those charts you posted will be handy.


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## mike w

Thanks for the safety info. A friend asked me to make some jerky for him. Gonna use cure #1 and now adding in the pasteurization step before hitting the smoker to dry.


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## valleypoboy

Lil Tom said:


> How the heck do you keep the meat so red. Every time I let mine cure for 48 hours it turns gray and ugly looking. It tastes good but I think the appearance could be more pleasing.


I'm speaking in general here, not specifically about jerky, but I've found the bottom of the meat is dull dead flesh grey when cooking on a bbq mat or in a foil pan. I think it sits in its own juices and "boils" the meat instead of smokeing it. I get sexy red smoke ring all the way around when I cook right on the grill. If you really want to cook on a mat flip it a few times in the fist couple hours.


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## cmayna

DaveOmak said:


> _What I have not been doing, but certainly will in the future, is to bring the meat up to 160 while it is in the brine so I'm sure to properly pasteurize it before smoking it.
> 
> I'm glad that you posted that link and those charts._
> Looking at the charts, when you add the meat to the brine, and say you are going to marinate for 24 hours or so in the refer, after the brining time heat the meat in the brine to one of the recommended time / temps to insure it is pasteurized...   or to 160 for zero seconds and you are good to go....


Found this thread to be quite the eye opener.  Dave, are you now bringing the meat up to 160 while it's in the brine?  Even when using cure#1 in the brine?  One can never be too cautious when dealing with raw meats.

Craig


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## daveomak

cmayna said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _What I have not been doing, but certainly will in the future, is to bring the meat up to 160 while it is in the brine so I'm sure to properly pasteurize it before smoking it.
> 
> I'm glad that you posted that link and those charts._
> Looking at the charts, when you add the meat to the brine, and say you are going to marinate for 24 hours or so in the refer, after the brining time heat the meat in the brine to one of the recommended time / temps to insure it is pasteurized...   or to 160 for zero seconds and you are good to go....
> 
> 
> 
> Found this thread to be quite the eye opener.  Dave, are you now bringing the meat up to 160 while it's in the brine?
> 
> *That was in response to a member who had some concerns about taking the IT of a thin hunk of jerky...  You can easily take the temp. of the brining liquid and be sure the meat got to that temp...  Cool the liquid THEN add cure #1 to the liquid if you chose to smoke it...*
> 
> *I screwed up...    cure #1 starts to break down at 130-140 deg. F...   Do not elevate the heat until you have completed the smoke cycle...
> Sorry folks....   too many rules when it comes to this stuff...  some can overlap others, some can not...  If I wasn't getting so old, I could remember all this stuff*
> 
> 
> Even when using cure#1 in the brine?   * I'm not sure if cure #1 has enough microbial action to eliminate all bacteria..   Soooo, 160 would be good, OR *
> 
> *Use the pasteurization table to kill bacteria at a lower temperature..  Do the pasteurization thing, while the meat is still wet, so bacteria don't go through the dehydration process...  an extra precautionary step is good and not too much work...  Kind of like," seat belts save lives so I put a 5 point racing harness in my car"..  *
> 
> One can never be too cautious when dealing with raw meats.
> 
> Craig
Click to expand...


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## flipman77

there are many that will argue the use of Cure #1.  I am a FIRM BELIEVER of using it in every batch of jerky I do, whether in the smoker or dehydrator. 

I get a little crap from some of the "old timers" who say they've been doing jerky for 5o years and haven't died yet.  I'm glad they haven't died.....but it only takes one bad piece of

jerky to turn things nasty real quick...


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## steve66

Hello all. I've been reading these threads and I'm still a bit confused. I want to make my first batch of jerky in the smoker. I've done jerky in a dehydrator many many times. Mostly using a soy sauce base or Claude's marinade. Please forgive the redundancy but I want to get this correct. 

Step 1 marinate in a brine for 24-48 with cure #1
Step 2 pasteurize in brine to 160 degrees
Step 3 heat the MES 30 to 130 and let meat dry for an hour
Step 4 start smoke with AMNPS and increase temp 10 degrees an hour until 
       you reach 170-180 then cool and store.

Have I got this process correct.


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## daveomak

Steve66 said:


> Hello all. I've been reading these threads and I'm still a bit confused. I want to make my first batch of jerky in the smoker. I've done jerky in a dehydrator many many times. Mostly using a soy sauce base or Claude's marinade. Please forgive the redundancy but I want to get this correct.
> 
> Step 1 marinate in a brine for 24-48 with cure #1
> Step 2 pasteurize in brine to 160 degrees (165 for poultry)..  cool the brine then add the cure #1...
> Step 3 heat the MES 30 to 130 and let meat dry for an hour
> Step 4 start smoke with AMNPS and increase temp 10 degrees an hour until
> you reach 170-180 then cool and store.
> 
> Have I got this process correct.


Nitrite starts to break down at ~130 ish deg. F....

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fch/sites/default/files/documents/pnw_632_makingjerkyathome.pdf


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## steve66

Thank you DaveOmak. I appreciate the clarification. Now just got to choose a brine.


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## daveomak

You  are welcome....


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## steve66

The recipe doesn't include a "cure".


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## randyld60

DaveOmak said:


> Nitrite starts to break down at ~130 ish deg. F....
> 
> http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fch/sites/default/files/documents/pnw_632_makingjerkyathome.pdf


After you pasteurize in brine at 160 degrees and let it cool and then add cure #1 how long should you let the meat set in the brine with cure#1 before smoking ?

Thanks Randy


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## daveomak

Randyld60 said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nitrite starts to break down at ~130 ish deg. F....
> 
> http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fch/sites/default/files/documents/pnw_632_makingjerkyathome.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> After you pasteurize in brine at 160 degrees and let it cool and then add cure #1 how long should you let the meat set in the brine with cure#1 before smoking ?
> 
> Thanks Randy
Click to expand...

Randy, morning...   Overnight in the refer should do for 1/4" strips.... Thicker, longer...     Blot the brine.....  do NOT rinse...


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## daveomak

Steve66 said:


> The recipe doesn't include a "cure".


Steve, morning....  There are recipes for those that use dehydrators and recipes for those that smoke in a smoker....    If anyone uses a smoker, it is best and strongly suggested you use cure #1 because of the possibility of botulism...


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## randyld60

So this would be correct for 1/4 thick slices

Step 1 marinate in a brine for 12 to 24 hrs (without cure#1)
Step 2 pasteurize in brine to 160 degrees

Step 3 cool brine then add cure #1

Step 4 marinate 12 hrs

Step 5 heat the MES 30 to 130 and let meat dry for an hour
Step 6 start smoke with AMNPS and increase temp 10 degrees an hour until
you reach 170-180 then cool and store.

Thanks again Dave the knowledge here is GREAT

Randy


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## daveomak

Yep....   U got it......  Dave


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## daveomak

Below is an example of pasteurization for chicken...   similar stuff for beef and pork etc....   It's the pathogen that determines the time and temp..

*Food Safety is About Temperature and Time*

The FDA Food Code suggests cooking chicken to 165°F (74°C) to be sure all bacteria is killed and safe to eat. This temperature is suggested because at 165°F (74°C) the chicken achieves a 7-log[sub]10 reduction—meaning that _99.99999% of the bacteria present are destroyed—_instantaneously: a foolproof rule to follow for safety. Salmonella isn’t anything to be trifled with, and 165°F (74°C) is indeed the temperature to target if preparing food for individuals at higher risk of illness (older adults, pregnant women, young children, and others with compromised immune systems).[/sub]

Not widely known is the fact that chicken can achieve the same 7-log10 reduction at temperatures as low as 136°F (58°C) as long as that temperature is held at 136°F (58°C) for at _least 63.3 minutes_. As the internal temperature increases, the holding time for a 7-log10 reduction decreases.

In a document from the [sub]USDA on [/sub]_Time and Temperature Tables for Cooking Poultry Products_[sub], the time cooked chicken must be held when brought to an internal temperature of 145°F (63°C) is 8.4 minutes. At 150°F (65.5°C) the time is reduced to _only 2.7 minutes!_[/sub]


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## randyld60

Thanks again for taking the time to pass on info like this.

Randy


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## randyld60

Another question from a newbie Dave should the cure #1 be mixed at [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>  <o:RelyOnVML/>  <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument>  <w:View>Normal</w:View>  <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>  <w:TrackMoves/>  <w:TrackFormatting/>  <w:PunctuationKerning/>  <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>  <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>  <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>  <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>  <w:DoNotPromoteQF/>  <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>  <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>  <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript>  <w:Compatibility>   <w:BreakWrappedTables/>   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>   <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   <w:DontGrowAutofit/>   <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/>   <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/>   <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/>   <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/>  </w:Compatibility>  <m:mathPr>   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Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/>  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles></xml><![endif][if gte mso 10]><style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;mso-style-noshow:yes;mso-style-priority:99;mso-style-parent:"";mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;mso-para-margin-top:0in;mso-para-margin-right:0in;mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:0in;line-height:115%;mso-pagination:widow-orphan;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;}</style><![endif]150 Ppm nitrite, 156 Ppm nitrite, or 120 Ppm for jerky I have seen all these numbers used after reading several posts or am I just splitting hairs ?

Thanks Randy


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## daveomak

156 is a good target...   +/- 10 Ppm is no big deal...  even 120 is fine as it is the minimum amount you should use....    The nitrite dissipates during cooking of the meat down to about 20% of original....


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## randyld60

Thanks again

Randy


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## sigmo

Good information.   I like the idea of the checklist/step-by-step for the basics here.  That might be a good sticky.

I now wonder if much of the nitrite remains after the smoking/cooking of the jerky.  And I always figured part of the intent of using the cure was to provide some degree of "shelf stability" for the finished product.  But if heating over 130 breaks the cure down, then is our jerky really safe being stored for even short periods of time at room temperatures?  Maybe it's the dryness and salt content that keeps it safe at that point.  I usually end up the smoking/drying at 165 or higher, but maybe that's too high, destroying the cure.

I really like the jerky I've made over the years because, to me, it tastes better than store-bought, and has no sugar in it the way I make it.  But I do want it to be completely safe, too, so I want to get this absolutely right.


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## daveomak

Sigmo said:


> Good information. I like the idea of the checklist/step-by-step for the basics here. That might be a good sticky.
> 
> I now wonder if much of the nitrite remains after the smoking/cooking of the jerky. And I always figured part of the intent of using the cure was to provide some degree of "shelf stability" for the finished product. But if heating over 130 breaks the cure down, then is our jerky really safe being stored for even short periods of time at room temperatures? Maybe it's the dryness and salt content that keeps it safe at that point. I usually end up the smoking/drying at 165 or higher, but maybe that's too high, destroying the cure.
> 
> I really like the jerky I've made over the years because, to me, it tastes better than store-bought, and has no sugar in it the way I make it. But I do want it to be completely safe, too, so I want to get this absolutely right.


Sigmo, morning....    I believe you are mixing two methods of making jerky.....    

First is making jerky in a dehydrator and not using cure....  That is the normal method...   Then cooking to 165 or placing in the oven at 275 are the steps to insure a safe product....    

Second is smoking jerky at home, cure is used due to the low oxygen environment is a smoker......  Normally one would only cook the meat to 145 or 165....   165 being the temp for poultry or wild game....  

The USDA makes a note about the degradation of nitrite in commercially produced products to about +/- 20%...   And the remaining nitrite is satisfactory to protect the product during shelf life storage, or something like that....

Jerky, in a dehydrator, does not require nitrite as it is not a low oxygen environment and it should be "sterilized" to 165 ish...   or in an oven at 275 to insure the death of all pathogens....    Although, nitrite does provide a pink color to the meat and in some instances, makes a nice change to the flavor profile....

I hope I got this all correct as there are sooooooo many exceptions to the rules, even my brain mixes stuff up...


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## Libertree

daveomak said:


> Nitrite starts to break down at ~130 ish deg. F....



First post... I've been reading everything and I'm really excited to get smoking! I'm in the middle of my first attempt at jerky. I've got it in two different marinades, in vacuum packs, in the fridge for 24 hours. I used cure in both marinades.

Here are my questions...
1.) Since I'm already packaged, can I just sous vide the packs to pasteurization temp?
2.) Since I've been marinating already for 24 hours, does it matter if the cure degrades at this point, since its already done its job? This one concerned me a bit since Daveomak called out degradation specifically. I don't want anyone getting sick!
3.) Do I need to go to 160℉? Could I use the pasteurization time/temp guide that you would use for sous vide beef? 2 hour at 135.5℉ for a 25mm package?
4.) If I've got cure in there for botulism, and sous vide for pasteurization, do I still need to do the after step of heating in the oven to 275℉?

My son LOVES jerky, so I've decided I need to make it homemade for him but he's a finicky little bugger so I want it to be as close to "real" jerky as possible. I want to avoid a cooked vibe.

Thank you all for the awesome, informative posts.


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## daveomak

The pasteurization table is fine for your jerky...  Killing pathogens is killing pathogens..  As far as which pasteurization to use, I chose a table that recommends a 7D reduction in salmonella...  usually poultry or ground meats, are cook for a longer period of time....   Some table are 5D reduction etc...   If bacteria are killed at 135F in 60 minutes to a 5D reduction, then I cook for 2 hours at 135F....   Why not ??  ..   Thermometers must be accurate...   The longer time insures any pockets of lower temps, in the package, will get to proper temperature...   The meat doesn't get over cooked...  Seems like a good choice to me to insure a safe product....
Then the drying stage can begin...  Is that what you are thinking ???

It doesn't say....  BUT....   I think the time/temp listed below is where the pathogen of interest STARTS to die..


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## Libertree

Thanks for the quick response, Daveomak! I appreciate it.

I'm completely new to smoking but I do sous vide. I typically use the Sous Vide guide from Douglas Baldwin. http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Table_5.1 but it would seem that the data in your chart is more recent. I'll save that one to use later. Thanks!

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. If I can sous vide the already cured meat, go a little overkill with time, I'd end up killing the buggies but NOT cooking the steak (in the sense of traditional cooking) and I save myself the step of dunking the beef in 160 degree marinade since I can just plop the marinating bag in the water bath. I also think that this saves me from having to do the 10 minutes in the hot over AFTER it's dried. Would that assumption be correct? I've read sooooo much in the last few days that my head is spinning a little.

Then, it's on to drying. I'm thinking I no longer have to worry about the low oxygen environment in the smoker because the meat is cured. I also don't have to worry about getting to a specific internal temp, since the sous vide did that for me? Or do I, since I need to remove the meat from the bath, place it on a rack to dry a bit, and THEN put it in the smoker. Normally when something comes out of the bath, we eat it, but this would cool to room temp to form a pellicle before hitting the smoker. 

I apologize for all the questions. I'm probably overthinking this but I really need to understand in order to feel safe for my kiddos to hoover this down and I also want to make the best product I can. So these are the steps I propose:

1.) slice, marinate, cure in fridge for at least 24 hours
2.) drop bag into water bath to pasteurize
3.) remove beef, place on rack, dry to avoid too much surface moisture causing "acid rain"
4.) smoke as low as I can go (pellet smoker) 150 for 5+ hours until jerky texture is reached

Again, thanks for the help!


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## sigmo

This is all good info.  I like the idea of using a sous-vide water bath for the pasteurization because the temperature can be controlled so precisely, and using a longer time and at a lower temperature might make for a less "cooked" jerky product.

Also, since I use an electric smoker, and even provide forced air-flow during the drying phase, the method I end up using is kind of a hybrid falling between the dehydrator and smoker methods even though it's all done in a smoker.  I can see where a smoker that is heated directly by burning fuel such as charcoal, wood, or even gas would end up being a low-oxygen environment, though.

The only oxygen consumption in my system will be from the smoke pellets smoldering in an AMNPS.  It would be interesting to know what the free oxygen levels really are during the smoking phase in such a system, but in any case, it's certainly better to be safe than sorry with any of this.

It's about time that I make another batch of jerky.  All of this discussion is making me hungry.  

Thanks again, everyone, especially Dave, for the helpful information and great discussion of it all!


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## daveomak

Remember, when packaging in a vac-pack system...  That is a low oxygen environment...   Even if sealed in a package with oxygen, oxygen loving bacteria can consume the available oxygen and now your package becomes a low oxygen environment...
The use of nitrite in packaged meats "almost" becomes a necessity for food safety...  "Food for thought"...


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## sigmo

Yep.  When you use sous-vide, you are always creating a low O2 environment.

In the past, I've always mixed the cure in with the brine and then vacuum-packed that cure/brine/meat mixture and refrigerated that for the marinating period.  I figured that marinated the meat and also got the cure into the meat properly.  And the cure and refrigerator temperatures during the marinade period would suppress the anaerobes during the actual marination phase.

But if I'm now going to add a pasteurization step to the already-marinaded cure/brine/meat (presumably still sealed in the bag, fresh out of the fridge), the question of the pasteurization phase breaking down too much of the cure arises.

If I pasteurize at 135°F (internal temperature of the bag-o-meat) for at least two hours, I wonder if I would have enough nitrite/nitrate left to keep the jerky safe during the drying and smoking and on into the storage and use of the product.  In the past, I would have assumed so.  But if the nitrate/nitrite breaks down too much, that may not be true, especially for people using wood/charcoal/gas-fired smokers.

We have two possible places (at least) to get a low-oxygen environment:  The marination/pasteurization container, and the smoker itself.

I'd like to avoid adding a second dose of nitrate/nitrite cure after cooling the product down post pasteurization.  Without being able to test the concentration of cure remaining, doing a second dose accurately would be difficult, anyhow.

But maybe that's overkill, and plenty of cure will remain after the pasteurization step, so we could theoretically just take the cured/marinated/pasteurized meat out of the bag immediately after the pasteurization and start the drying/smoking.

I designed the gadgetry and wrote the software for an automated nitrite/nitrate/cyanide/etc., test system that we used at a number of environmental laboratories for a long time 15 years ago or so.  And you can get inexpensive nitrate and nitrite test kits for aquarium water testing.  But I'd have to look into the ranges these tests cover to see if they'd be of any use doing some experimentation on the brine/cure solutions before and after pasteurization.

So there might be a way to experimentally verify how much nitrate/nitrite we lose during different time and temperature pasteurization regimes.  But I'm not sure it's worth the effort.  And I'm not sure if the heavy salt, sugar, etc., concentrations we'd see in brine solutions would create huge interferences with the different nitrate/nitrite testing systems.

Normally, people are testing drinking water samples or at worst, river or stream water, which don't contain high concentrations of metal salts, sugar, etc.  You could run heat tests on pure water spiked with the nitrate and nitrite cures, but I'm not sure that would adequately simulate the reactions that might happen in a real marinade!

As we might say in the laboratory, the marinade may be a difficult "sample matrix" to deal with here!  ;)


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## daveomak

You are overthinking this....  After nitrite additions and appropriate curing/rest time.....  everything is cooked.... whether it be in the dehydrator, sous-vide, commercial smokehouse, backyard smokehouse...  It just doesn't matter...
Commercially processed foods that say, "Cook before eating" are usually cooked to 138 F in the facility...  That's where the 10-20% nitrite is remaining comes from...  Testing commercial products....


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## Libertree

sigmo said:


> If I pasteurize at 135°F (internal temperature of the bag-o-meat) for at least two hours, I wonder if I would have enough nitrite/nitrate left to keep the jerky safe during the drying and smoking and on into the storage and use of the product.  In the past, I would have assumed so.  But if the nitrate/nitrite breaks down too much, that may not be true, especially for people using wood/charcoal/gas-fired smokers.



I wanted to understand this as well. I know that curing suppresses the growth of botulism bacteria but I wasn't sure it actually KILLED the bacteria. I tried to find the information but I was just looking in the wrong places. I did eventually find an article (there was no sourcing in the article and it wasn't from an especially scientific blog but interesting nonetheless). It was from a spice blog called "Spiceography" that stated:

Health benefits of curing salt
While curing salt does not provide a wide variety of nutrients, it does have a couple of health benefits. They are:

*It prevents botulism*: Both types of curing salt do more than merely keep meat from spoiling. They are able to prevent the growth of the Clostridium botulism bacteria. It does this by drawing water out of the meat via osmosis. It also draws water out of the bacteria cells, which kills them.
*It contains sodium*: Sodium does more than just flavor your food. It is a mineral that your body needs for the absorption and transportation of minerals along with the transmission of nerve signals. It is also important for maintaining a healthy blood pressure.
*Curing salt helps to prevent food-borne illness*: Most importantly, it prevents botulism. Botulism is a condition caused by the Clostridium botulism bacteria mentioned above. Botulism symptoms include trouble swallowing and speaking along with vomiting and abdominal cramping.
What I found interesting here was the point that it draws water out of the meat AND out of the bacteria cells, killing them. If that's true, then there isn't much left (if anything left) to proliferate in the danger temp zone? In which case, I'd think we could safely cure the jerky at any temp we want? Although pasteurization doesn't kill all the other baddies TOTALLY so does curing kill ALL the botulism? And in what time? And obviously people have been eating jerky for FOREVER so at some point we're dealing with MINIMAL risk. However, I'd like that risk to be as minimal as possible.



> And you can get inexpensive nitrate and nitrite test kits for aquarium water testing.  But I'd have to look into the ranges these tests cover to see if they'd be of any use doing some experimentation on the brine/cure solutions before and after pasteurization.



I LOVE science experiments... fun. fun. fun.



> So there might be a way to experimentally verify how much nitrate/nitrite we lose during different time and temperature pasteurization regimes.  But I'm not sure it's worth the effort.



Probably not worth it but possibly a fun experiment. As Davomak says, we're probably overthinking this one but I'm glad I'm not the only over thinker.


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## Libertree

daveomak said:


> You are overthinking this....



Ya think? Hahaha. I'm sorry. Thanks for being patient. ;)


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## sigmo

daveomak said:


> You are overthinking this....  After nitrite additions and appropriate curing/rest time.....  everything is cooked.... whether it be in the dehydrator, sous-vide, commercial smokehouse, backyard smokehouse...  It just doesn't matter...
> Commercially processed foods that say, "Cook before eating" are usually cooked to 138 F in the facility...  That's where the 10-20% nitrite is remaining comes from...  Testing commercial products....



Excellent.  I'll just do what I've always done, soaking the meat in a marinade (that also includes the appropriate amount of cure) in the fridge.  But then I'll sous-vide it in that same bag for two hours at 135°F, and then I'll hang it in the smoker and get after it.  That's easy!



Libertree said:


> I wanted to understand this as well. I know that curing suppresses the growth of botulism bacteria but I wasn't sure it actually KILLED the bacteria. I tried to find the information but I was just looking in the wrong places. I did eventually find an article (there was no sourcing in the article and it wasn't from an especially scientific blog but interesting nonetheless). It was from a spice blog called "Spiceography" that stated:
> 
> Health benefits of curing salt
> While curing salt does not provide a wide variety of nutrients, it does have a couple of health benefits. They are:
> 
> *It prevents botulism*: Both types of curing salt do more than merely keep meat from spoiling. They are able to prevent the growth of the Clostridium botulism bacteria. It does this by drawing water out of the meat via osmosis. It also draws water out of the bacteria cells, which kills them.
> *It contains sodium*: Sodium does more than just flavor your food. It is a mineral that your body needs for the absorption and transportation of minerals along with the transmission of nerve signals. It is also important for maintaining a healthy blood pressure.
> *Curing salt helps to prevent food-borne illness*: Most importantly, it prevents botulism. Botulism is a condition caused by the Clostridium botulism bacteria mentioned above. Botulism symptoms include trouble swallowing and speaking along with vomiting and abdominal cramping.
> What I found interesting here was the point that it draws water out of the meat AND out of the bacteria cells, killing them. If that's true, then there isn't much left (if anything left) to proliferate in the danger temp zone? In which case, I'd think we could safely cure the jerky at any temp we want? Although pasteurization doesn't kill all the other baddies TOTALLY so does curing kill ALL the botulism? And in what time? And obviously people have been eating jerky for FOREVER so at some point we're dealing with MINIMAL risk. However, I'd like that risk to be as minimal as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> I LOVE science experiments... fun. fun. fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not worth it but possibly a fun experiment. As Davomak says, we're probably overthinking this one but I'm glad I'm not the only over thinker.



In the quoted text, they talk about "curing salt".  But I'm not sure if they mean plain salt, or using salt with nitrate or nitrite in it.  I do think of "curing salt" as having nitrate or nitrite in it, but the thing is:  Using salt alone provides the protection of making moisture unavailable to the bad organisms.  The nitrate or nitrite (if present) provides an additional and separate means of suppressing bacterial growth.

This is interesting:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-salt-and-sugar-pre/

And this is good, too:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/FSRE_SS_7Principles.pdf?redirecthttp=true

One thing to always be aware of if you use a nitrate or nitrite test kit designed for aquarium use (or really, any of them) is that they may not use the same "reporting units" as most environmental laboratories (and that the EPA) use when stating MCLs (maximum contaminant limits) for, say, drinking water.

The problem is that most labs report (and the EPA uses for its MCLs) "nitrate as N" or "nitrite as N".  Which means they only consider the atomic weight of the nitrogen atoms in the nitrate or nitrite molecules.  Since these molecules have molecular weights that are, of course, much higher than the masses of only their nitrogen atoms, this creates a difference because:

The nitrate molecule (more correctly: ion) is NO3- which is one nitrogen atom and 3 oxygen atoms.

The nitrogen atom has an atomic mass of 14.007
Each Oxygen atom has an atomic mass of 15.999

So this gives our nitrate ion an ionic mass of 14.007+( 3 x 15.999) = 62.004

So when we report concentrations based on only the mass of the nitrogen atom, we get a result that is approximately 4.43 times lower than if we report concentration based on the entire mass of the nitrate ion.

Some (most?) of the aquarium test kits I've seen report nitrate and nitrite concentrations based on the entire molecular weights of the nitrate or nitrite molecules.

So when they report their results in "parts per million" or "milligrams per liter", they're basing the concentrations on the (higher) mass of the entire nitrate ion.  And that often scares the hobbyist using the fish-tank tester because they see concentrations in, for example, their tap water, which appear to be over the EPA MCL for nitrate or nitrite.

As an example, consider the two different reporting methods for nitrate, and EPA's MCL for nitrate in drinking water.

EPA specifies (and most environmental labs report) the concentration "as N", meaning just the atomic mass of the nitrogen atoms.

And the EPA MCL is 10ppm.

But a typical aquarium nitrate test might report that same 10ppm as 44.3ppm because it reports the concentration based on the entire mass of the nitrate ion.

nitrate = "nitrate as N" x 4.43
"nitrate as N" = nitrate x 0.226

So people using some aquarium test kits test their tap water and find a level above 10ppm and think their tap water is over the EPA limit when it may be well below the limit.

So you have to convert the results into the reporting units that you are really interested in seeing.  Now I'm curious as to what reporting units or reporting method is used when specifying nitrite and nitrate concentrations for food.  My guess is that like the methods used for drinking water by EPA and most labs, they are reporting "nitrate as N" or "nitrite as N', as well.  But without seeing this specifically documented, who knows?

So that's just one thing to keep in mind when overthinking all of this!  ;)


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## daveomak

From what I have read, the "analysts" don't care about the atomic weight of N and O when computing the effectiveness of cure#1 or cure#2...   
They add X# of bacteria into a host "solution" and then add X grams of cure...  at a given time and temperature they count the live bacteria...  When the acceptable reduction of live bacteria has been reached for a 5D or 6D or 12D reduction, they write up their results... The tests are duplicated by other labs to verify the results... Then they drink coffee for 6 or 12 months and contemplate how to write up the CFR so it's halfassed confusing, pat themselves on the back, turn in their expense reports and hope all is accepted...


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## bill ace 350

farwest said:


> New to the forum. I got my first smoker last week and now I'm going to try my first smoke. I went with a Green Mountain Daniel Boone electric pellet smoker. I got me some HI_mountain cure/seasoning for the first time. My plan is to slice the beef 1/4 thick and marinate for 24-28 hours, than smoke at 180 for 4-5 hours or till done which I'm not sure when that is. Questions are is the time and temp going to work? What should I look for to know its done, internal temp? texture? Smoker will go as low as 150 degrees. Thanks for any tips and info.



Hope it worked out for you!

You can get tons of great advice from some people here.

If you start thinking about bacon, ham and chicken, check out "Pop's Brine".

Having said that, there are many knowledgeable individuals here, so don't be "bullied" into a decision based on only 1 "expert's" opinion.

Safe food preparation/handling techniques, U.S. Government guidelines, commercially prepared cures and recipes are your "friends".

Don't be afraid to try your own recipes once you're comfortable.

Best of luck.


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## pugsbrew

OK, I'm a little confused here.  Why are we discussing using/combining both pasteurization and curing?  I think the procedure is:

1.  If you'll be using a dehydrator, pasteurize before drying.  This is not an oxygen deprived technique.

2.  If using a smoker, oxygen deprived system/technique, you need to cure meat first.  There should be no need to pasteurize.

Why exactly are we talking doing both for a recipe?  What am I missing here?

Just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks


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## Rippy

Wow I maybe more confused now about making jerky in my mbes30 than ever


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## daveomak

Wow I maybe more confused now about making jerky in my mbes30 than ever

Read this......
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index


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## WildmanWilson

Well I made a post about drying temps compared to summer sausage or snack sticks. These are cooked using curing salt but they are not pre heated to kill bacteria. They are cooked very low to set the fat then slowly bumped up over a period of hours to an internal temperature of about 155. It’s all completely safe to eat.  I don’t see why a different technique is suggested when the only difference in the jerky is dried to a lower moisture content. 

The sausage and snack sticks are even put in smokers most times in a low oxygen environment. All without bringing to a temp of 160 first.


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## daveomak

WildmanWilson said:


> Well I made a post about drying temps compared to summer sausage or snack sticks. These are cooked using curing salt but they are not pre heated to kill bacteria. They are cooked very low to set the fat then slowly bumped up over a period of hours to an internal temperature of about 155. It’s all completely safe to eat.  I don’t see why a different technique is suggested when the only difference in the jerky is dried to a lower moisture content.
> The sausage and snack sticks are even put in smokers most times in a low oxygen environment. All without bringing to a temp of 160 first.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WW, morning....  How about you follow the USDA's guidelines and continue to read up on it..  I've posted several papers on the reasoning behind the USDA's findings and recommendations..  You don't really have to understand the scientific data as long as you follow it...

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/160-temp-question.282887/

..


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## pa42phigh

daveomak said:


> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> WW, morning....  How about you follow the USDA's guidelines and continue to read up on it..  I've posted several papers on the reasoning behind the USDA's findings and recommendations..  You don't really have to understand the scientific data as long as you follow it...
> 
> https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index
> 
> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/160-temp-question.282887/
> 
> ..


Is there a similar paper on summer sausage preparation I’d like to read it if there is thx


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## WildmanWilson

daveomak said:


> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> WW, morning....  How about you follow the USDA's guidelines and continue to read up on it..  I've posted several papers on the reasoning behind the USDA's findings and recommendations..  You don't really have to understand the scientific data as long as you follow it...
> 
> https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index
> 
> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/160-temp-question.282887/
> 
> ..


Yes, I’ve read all of it. It still doesn’t explain why there’s different recommendations for the two different processes. They both start out nearly identical yet one is recommended to pre cook to 160 and the other isn’t. Why? Sausage and snack sticks would seem to be just as susceptible to these same bacteria yet they don’t have the same recommendations. It’s ground meat that’s cooked at 100 degrees for an hour then bumped slowly upwards and smoke applied the second hour. The only thing is has in #1 curing salt. Tell me why we aren’t getting sick eating snack sticks and summer sausage.


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## daveomak

Is there a similar paper on summer sausage preparation I’d like to read it if there is thx


No....  there is not...  read up on making sausage...  I found something similar..

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/c...preparation/sausages-and-food-safety/ct_index


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