# Please help! Mushy beef snack sticks



## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

Hello All,
Been a long time since I've logged on. Unfortunately my hobbies come and go lol. But I do always come back to them. Too many interests!

Anyway, I am trying to make beef snack sticks. Or I call them smokies. I've been trying to nail them down for a while now. They always come out mushy! 
I've ground my own meat (tried for 80/20)
I've bought ground meat of all types-80/20,70/30, 73/27
I've bought fresh ground meat, I've bought pre packed in the styrofoam, Ive bought the logs.
They've always come out mushy. 
I recently bought a meat mixer which seemed to really give me the sticky good consistency. I've always achieved a good sticky consistency, however the mixer made it easier and quicker. And my hands stayed warm! I have a masterbuilt electric smoker so I have perfect temp control. I start at 130 for 1 hour, then increase the temp every hour 10 degrees. Until I reach 170-180. I pull them out at 155 IT. Last night I did an experiment I put 6 links in so I didn't waste a whole batch. I pulled the first one out at 155 IT,  next one at 160, then 165 and 170 IT. Still no difference. they were all Mushy. This batch was a 73/27 log. From my research the fat content could control the "mushiness" but like I said, I'm getting mushy at all percentages. 
this is my recipe (roughly)
5 lbs ground meat (any of the ones I've mentioned.)
1 tsp pink salt prague #1 
2 tbsp paprika
1.5 tbsp pickling salt
1 tsp onion powder
1 tsp ground mustard
1 tsp liquid smoke
1 tsp celery seed
1 tbsp black pepper
1 cup dry milk
I stuff them into 19mm casings.
and I might be missing something. These ingredients pretty much haven't changed in all attempts except the meat and how I prepare it (grind) or the fat percentage.
I hope I've provided all the info you'll need.
I feel the flavor is pretty good, they just are mushy! anyone have any help?!! Please and thank you!


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

Are you putting the meat in the freezer to firm up prior to grinding so you don't get fat smear?  How much water are you adding to the mix?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

Ah yes! It is frozen, partially. I put my cure in 1 cup of ice water. I forgot to mention that. Even during mixing i try to keep it as cold as possible. I haven't ground my own in the last several attempts. I wasn't happy with my results. But I may be willing to revisit if thats the key. I just could never get the ratios down. I never KNEW if i was getting 80/20 or not


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## SonnyE (Feb 5, 2019)

I'm really new at this, but some things come to mind.
I don't see any Pork in your mixture. And you have seemingly always hit on ground beast.
What about grinding your own lean beast? Total control of the fat content.
If you are up for a different road, try other recipes.
Many folks here make their own Snack Sticks. I'm currently working with Disco's recipe.
I ordered in some of the ingredients I didn't have, like Buttermilk Powder. And Mustard seed, and Fennel seeds.
For the price of a smallish expensive bottle of the seeds, I have poundish sizes being mailed in with free shipping. And a pound of Buttermilk Powder.
And like Inda said, cold... Icy cold, holds the fat.
You'll get it, just keep working on it.

Oh, and are you letting the stuffed sticks set overnight in the cold fridge before smoking?


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## foamheart (Feb 5, 2019)

Simple. You just need to smoke 'em longer to get the water out. You can add a gallon of H20 in your mix if you don't mind smoking for a day or two to dewater 'em.

I don't know your smoker, but I do stix in an electric. I start off for 45 mins to one hour on high heat 275 degrees. BUT I leave the vent wide open and the door cracked and just on latch. Then I add smoke and turn down my temp to sustain whatever smoking time I which to use. When they are dry, where I want them I pull 'em.

Smoking is about your senses, sure a recipe is great for preparing your product, but use your eyes, nose, and touch to decide when its ready. If you don't there will always some different modifier to your set equation. Smoking is not an exact science. Besides the product to smoke (meat is always different), there temp, humidity, type  smoke, condition of smoke type, etc etc.... 

Just try smoking your stix a little longer, or readjust the content of fluid in the mixture, heck you  could even smoke higher all should work.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> Ah yes! It is frozen, partially. I put my cure in 1 cup of ice water. I forgot to mention that. Even during mixing i try to keep it as cold as possible. I haven't ground my own in the last several attempts. I wasn't happy with my results. But I may be willing to revisit if thats the key. I just could never get the ratios down. I never KNEW if i was getting 80/20 or not


I suggest you cut the water back to 1/2 cup......maybe even a 1/4 cup....


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

foamheart said:


> Simple. You just need to smoke 'em longer to get the water out. You can add a gallon of H20 in your mix if you don't mind smoking for a day or two to dewater 'em.



Ya know what?! I was thinking the same thing. yes they may hit temp... but they may not dry out. So at this very minute...I am trying to bump the temp every 2 hours instead of 1. I have the rest of the recipe in now from last night.
Would you still pull them at an IT of 155?
Thank You


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> Ah yes! It is frozen, partially. I put my cure in 1 cup of ice water. I forgot to mention that. Even during mixing i try to keep it as cold as possible. I haven't ground my own in the last several attempts. I wasn't happy with my results. But I may be willing to revisit if thats the key. I just could never get the ratios down. I never KNEW if i was getting 80/20 or not


If you are going to use store bought ground beef, I suggest buying whole cuts and have the butcher grind them for you. That way you know you are getting fresh ground beef. Buying already ground beef, you do not know how fresh it is, and ground meat in a grocery store is the most contaminated meat they sell.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> I'm really new at this, but some things come to mind.
> I don't see any Pork in your mixture. And you have seemingly always hit on ground beast.
> What about grinding your own lean beast? Total control of the fat content.
> If you are up for a different road, try other recipes.
> ...



I have the ingredients. I know the struggle to find them! lol Im not sure where you live but I have found the dry milk at my walmart and grocery stores. I will definetly look at that recipe, bc once I nail this consistency I do want to try other recipes. 
Yes I do let them sit over night in the fridge. But I have heard you dont have to?IDK I do it just for time purposes really, I dont usually have enough time to mix, stuff and smoke in the same day.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> If you are going to use store bought ground beef, I suggest buying whole cuts and have the butcher grind them for you. That way you know you are getting fresh ground beef. Buying already ground beef, you do not know how fresh it is, and ground meat in a grocery store is the most contaminated meat they sell.



I am not trying to start an argument here, as I am not an expert. So understand what I am saying, is just stuff I've heard and am merely repeating it. 
I believe it was even on this very forum website where I read a write up on the meats. 
In short from what I remember: The pre wrapped logs of meat are actually less contaminated due to the high standards of the factory they are produced in. I think they guy who wrote it said he toured one or worked at one. They are like entering a chemical lab. really high sanitation standards. However if you go to your butcher... you never know wheat meat the just prepped or sanitation standards they have. I guess the government doesnt regulate them like the factories that produce the logs ofpre wrapped meat.
Again... not my research just repeating what I have researched. Im not totally against butcher ground meat either. And I will try anything to get these to firm up. If youre interested... search this this forum here for that thread maybe. 
Thank You


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> I suggest you cut the water back to 1/2 cup......maybe even a 1/4 cup....


 Hmm ok. Will I still get that sticky consistency they say I want to get? Does that consistency even matter?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

foamheart said:


> Simple. You just need to smoke 'em longer to get the water out. You can add a gallon of H20 in your mix if you don't mind smoking for a day or two to dewater 'em.
> 
> I don't know your smoker, but I do stix in an electric. I start off for 45 mins to one hour on high heat 275 degrees. BUT I leave the vent wide open and the door cracked and just on latch. Then I add smoke and turn down my temp to sustain whatever smoking time I which to use. When they are dry, where I want them I pull 'em.
> 
> ...



OK great that is what I am going to try tonight. They are nearing the first 2 hours. I will let them go until I think they are dried out. I have an MES 30. So I too use the electric for them and jerky. Cant beat the ability to hold temp so good. I live in cleveland ohio. Ive used that smoker in -11 degree temps and it held temp like a champ


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## kit s (Feb 5, 2019)

A lot of good info above...also might try letting them sit in casing in frig a few days before the smoke that also haelps them dry.
kit


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## BGKYSmoker (Feb 5, 2019)

Try not adding any water and keep your smoker vent fully open.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

kit s said:


> A lot of good info above...also might try letting them sit in casing in frig a few days before the smoke that also haelps them dry.
> kit


OK, good idea. thank you


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

nepas said:


> Try not adding any water and keep your smoker vent fully open.


OK, I like the idea, but I use the water to help distribute a small 1 tsp of cure. how would I distribute that small amount evenly throughout the recipe? Just in with all the spices im already putting in there? Im nervous about the cure haha.


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## SonnyE (Feb 5, 2019)

I gave my wife a very short example of buying "Fresh Ground Beef, Every Day".
She went shopping late yesterday afternoon. I texted her meat I wanted.
Most was not available. I imagine the Super Carnivores grabbed plenty for Super Bowl. She said she was kind of surprised how things seemed out of stock.

She came home with 5.91 lbs. of "Fresh Ground Beef" in a Styrofoam shrink wrapped package. 
I just finished doing my repackaging of it into 1/4 pound patties, 1 pound (8"x 8"), vacuum bags. They are freezing before I vacuum them for storage. I use a patty press, and patty papers to do my sub-dividing. Makes the GB real easy to work with later on.
But during the process, she happened to come into the kitchen. I asked if I could show her something. "Sure."
I pointed out, with my gloved hands, the middle looked like meat, and the surface was painted.
"Meat, Paint." I said. "They all seem to do it." I told her. Hopefully the small observation will stick with her.

If it is "Fresh Ground Every Day", why does it need to be painted *red*?

Now something I've noticed with chubs, (those plastic tubes), No paint. Ever. And naturally red meat as I repackage it into our preferred working sizes. 
We also buy the packaged 1 pound, 6 pounds total, plastic packages which really save a lot of time and materials. We just freeze them. And we have Pounds to thaw and cook as desired. Again, No Paint.

Lastly, if you choose a chunk, then have your Butcher custom grind it, why would you believe it is any less contaminated?
Do you think the grinder is cleaner than your own at home? (I can guarantee yours is cleaner. Even if it is dirty, it is _*your*_ dirty in it.)

To me, if I was going to home grind (and I am/do), it's to assure what is coming out the other end. I don't like vanes or artery parts looking at me when I bite into something. So I remove things I find objectionable when prepping.
If I just buy Ground Beast, I accept it may not be up to my personal standards, but is edible when cooked to death.
It's got to be a cut above a hamburger mixed with a mystery green slime coming out of a window served by someone of questionable health.

Life is a crap shoot. You take the shot, and hope you don't get the craps.
I can say I trust the USDA more than some food truck, or some street vender. 
I know neighborhoods where people set a barbecue in their front yards, and sell food cooked right there.
Now that, is damn plain crazy. That is asking to get food poisoning. 

I have to wonder if the red paint is lead free....


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## JckDanls 07 (Feb 5, 2019)

my suggestion would be to confirm your temps in the MES with a reputable thermometer (that's been calibrated in boiling water) ...  MES's are notoriously off by up to 50`... Also..  as nepas said...  try with no water...  just put the Cure in with the other spices and mix as you have been...  Myself..  I like to use about a 1/4 cup of water (for 5 lbs of meat) to put the cure in .... A whole cup is wayyyyy to much water ...


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> Hmm ok. Will I still get that sticky consistency they say I want to get? Does that consistency even matter?


it will still get sticky. It is best to add the salt (or the seasoning pack if the salt is mixed into it), and then mix. The salt will pull out it's own moisture from the meat, and in doing so will pull out salt soluble proteins. Then you can add the water and cure mixture....


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> I am not trying to start an argument here, as I am not an expert. So understand what I am saying, is just stuff I've heard and am merely repeating it.
> I believe it was even on this very forum website where I read a write up on the meats.
> In short from what I remember: The pre wrapped logs of meat are actually less contaminated due to the high standards of the factory they are produced in. I think they guy who wrote it said he toured one or worked at one. They are like entering a chemical lab. really high sanitation standards. However if you go to your butcher... you never know wheat meat the just prepped or sanitation standards they have. I guess the government doesnt regulate them like the factories that produce the logs ofpre wrapped meat.
> Again... not my research just repeating what I have researched. Im not totally against butcher ground meat either. And I will try anything to get these to firm up. If youre interested... search this this forum here for that thread maybe.
> Thank You


May be true that meat in tubes is not as contaminated as store ground beef. You are still better off having the freshest ground meat you can get.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> I gave my wife a very short example of buying "Fresh Ground Beef, Every Day".
> She went shopping late yesterday afternoon. I texted her meat I wanted.
> Most was not available. I imagine the Super Carnivores grabbed plenty for Super Bowl. She said she was kind of surprised how things seemed out of stock.
> 
> ...


It will still be contaminated Sonny, just not to the degree of meat that has been ground, contaminated, then packaged and put out for sale. You have no idea how long that meat has been sitting there....with bacteria growing in it.
Best to grind and use immediately when making smoke sausages, not let it sit around letting the pathogens grow. That is fine if you are making burgers or fresh sausages that will get through the danger zone (40-140 in 4 hour period) and cooked hot and fast and not held at a low temp for an extended period of time.


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## radio (Feb 5, 2019)

Just a shot in the dark here, but have you checked the thermometer you are using in ice water and boiling water?  I'm not seeing anything major in your methods to cause them to be mushy, so perhaps the thermometer is off?


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

radio said:


> Just a shot in the dark here, but have you checked the thermometer you are using in ice water and boiling water?  I'm not seeing anything major in your methods to cause them to be mushy, so perhaps the thermometer is off?


excellent point. 

Also to the OP: are you using a digital thermometer?


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## SonnyE (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> It will still be contaminated Sonny, just not to the degree of meat that has been ground, contaminated, then packaged and put out for sale. You have no idea how long that meat has been sitting there....with bacteria growing in it.
> Best to grind and use immediately when making smoke sausages, not let it sit around letting the pathogens grow. That is fine if you are making burgers or fresh sausages that will get through the danger zone (40-140 in 4 hour period) and cooked hot and fast and not held at a low temp for an extended period of time.



Didn't say it wouldn't. Did you read what I wrote?
Nothing is "Not contaminated". One sneeze contaminates 35 Cubic Feet of air. Hold your breath on your next elevator ride.
And don't even imagine what smelling a fart is akin to.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

radio said:


> Just a shot in the dark here, but have you checked the thermometer you are using in ice water and boiling water?  I'm not seeing anything major in your methods to cause them to be mushy, so perhaps the thermometer is off?


I have, If its off, its not by much. I have thermo pro thermometer. I dont think you can calibrate them can you? What will the boiling water do? reset it? or just let me know how far I am off?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> I gave my wife a very short example of buying "Fresh Ground Beef, Every Day".
> She went shopping late yesterday afternoon. I texted her meat I wanted.
> Most was not available. I imagine the Super Carnivores grabbed plenty for Super Bowl. She said she was kind of surprised how things seemed out of stock.
> 
> ...



OK you lost me there, however i think you're saying the logs are "eh ok" but of course grinding your own is better. 
What cut do you grind?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

JckDanls 07 said:


> my suggestion would be to confirm your temps in the MES with a reputable thermometer (that's been calibrated in boiling water) ...  MES's are notoriously off by up to 50`... Also..  as nepas said...  try with no water...  just put the Cure in with the other spices and mix as you have been...  Myself..  I like to use about a 1/4 cup of water (for 5 lbs of meat) to put the cure in .... A whole cup is wayyyyy to much water ...



1st, 
I have a thermo pro, which might be garbage idk? How do I calibrate it in boiling water? 
2nd) Im liking the less water idea. I had no idea! Wish I would have done that a long time ago! I think Ill cut back to 1/4 cup first then go to none 
Thank You!


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> It will still be contaminated Sonny, just not to the degree of meat that has been ground, contaminated, then packaged and put out for sale. You have no idea how long that meat has been sitting there....with bacteria growing in it.
> Best to grind and use immediately when making smoke sausages, not let it sit around letting the pathogens grow. That is fine if you are making burgers or fresh sausages that will get through the danger zone (40-140 in 4 hour period) and cooked hot and fast and not held at a low temp for an extended period of time.



Well, I like that theory and explanation too. What cut of meat do you use to grind, lets say for snack sticks? I want all beef. 
Just curious, isnt the cure there to help us through the danger zone at low temps?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> excellent point.
> 
> Also to the OP: are you using a digital thermometer?


Yes I am, a thermopro off amazon


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> excellent point.
> 
> Also to the OP: are you using a digital thermometer?





radio said:


> Just a shot in the dark here, but have you checked the thermometer you are using in ice water and boiling water?  I'm not seeing anything major in your methods to cause them to be mushy, so perhaps the thermometer is off?



also, I let them sit in extra hot yesterday. Took the ITs up to 170! I pulled a few different ones at different temps: 155, 160,165,and 170---all mush. But maybe I took them up that high too fast? Im hoping thats the case. So now theyve been in since 1pm, its 821 here. Im not pulling by temp, but by look. My new theory gathered from all the great help today is too much water in the recipe. So If I've been pulling the meat out at 155 IT... but it gets there in 4 to 6 hours... maybe that wasnt enough time for all the water to evap out? Im hoping thats the issue. we shall see. And hopefully not at 3am!


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## chopsaw (Feb 5, 2019)

Hey Paul ,,, 
My opinion , store bought ground beef is a crap shoot . 
I have two Thermo pros . TP-20 , TP-08 . Both work fine . 
I don't temp my sticks , I go by feel . 
I read the same thread about the Tube beef . I believe the thought was " ground in a more controlled " environment . 
I grind my own beef , I use chuck . 
I let the sticks hang out in the fridge to help them dry . ( after smoking ) Fridge temp 36 F . I put the sticks in a paper bag . 
I only add the moisture that is needed to the mix . Sometimes it's a cup per 5 lbs , sometimes it's a 1/4 cup . 
Good luck , you will get it figured out .


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## radio (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> I have, If its off, its not by much. I have thermo pro thermometer. I dont think you can calibrate them can you? What will the boiling water do? reset it? or just let me know how far I am off?


The boiling water is not to "calibrate", but rather to see what temp the thermometer is displaying with the probe in boiling water.  Most of us double check our thermometers in boiling water, then also in ice water just to make sure they are reading the correct temp.
If the thermometer is not the issue, as was mentioned earlier cut back on the water.  Something I would recommend you do to check the heat distribution in your smoker is the biscuit test.  Buy a can or two of cheap off brand biscuits and place them at different spots on your racks and see how the cooking compares at the different levels and front/back of your racks.  With the large pans you have in there they might well be affecting the temps above them.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

chopsaw said:


> Hey Paul ,,,
> My opinion , store bought ground beef is a crap shoot .
> I have two Thermo pros . TP-20 , TP-08 . Both work fine .
> I don't temp my sticks , I go by feel .
> ...



I don't know what thermo pro I have. Its the one that is wireless. I feel its pretty accurate. You go by feel? I assume that feel comes with experience? I'm just going to let them go for a long time until they look like the store bought ones. They have been in for 8.5 hours now, and don't even look close. 
 What kind of casing do you use and size? I use 19 mm collagen. They come out real thick, I assume because I have never gotten them done. 
Thanks for the help


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

radio said:


> The boiling water is not to "calibrate", but rather to see what temp the thermometer is displaying with the probe in boiling water.  Most of us double check our thermometers in boiling water, then also in ice water just to make sure they are reading the correct temp.
> If the thermometer is not the issue, as was mentioned earlier cut back on the water.  Something I would recommend you do to check the heat distribution in your smoker is the biscuit test.  Buy a can or two of cheap off brand biscuits and place them at different spots on your racks and see how the cooking compares at the different levels and front/back of your racks.  With the large pans you have in there they might well be affecting the temps above them.



Ok great. Thank you for the tips. I try to rotate my racks. I know for a fact the bottom rack is hotter, as it is closest to the heating element. I will try my thermometer in boiling water.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

How many pounds of sausage are you trying to smoke at one time in your MES? Just one 5# batch at a time?


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> How many pounds of sausage are you trying to smoke at one time in your MES? Just one 5# batch at a time?


Yes, thats about all I can fit,not to mention I lose a little in the stuffer


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

Right on...
When I did all my smoking on a GEN1 MES30, I figured out that the max you can smoke in it is 12.5lbs of sausage in 32-35mm casings.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Right on...
> When I did all my smoking on a GEN1 MES30, I figured out that the max you can smoke in it is 12.5lbs of sausage in 32-35mm casings.


 Hanging it? in a 30?! Damn it was stuffed huh? You got double what i can get


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> Didn't say it wouldn't. Did you read what I wrote?
> Nothing is "Not contaminated". One sneeze contaminates 35 Cubic Feet of air. Hold your breath on your next elevator ride.
> And don't even imagine what smelling a fart is akin to.


Another thing to consider when buying pre-ground meat...

The store has a cut of meat that is not selling, or maybe it has a cut that has sat in the meat case for 3 days...they need to do something with it. What do you think they do with it so they don't take a loss on it? That's right, they make it into ground meat. How old is that meat? Do you know?


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> Hanging it? in a 30?! Damn it was stuffed huh? You got double what i can get


Yes, hanging it...with 1" clearance between each coil hanging on a rod. Probably can't get 12.5# of snack sticks in there though.
Did you do the sausage hanger mod to your MES? There are some guys that have posted pictures....


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Another thing to consider when buying pre-ground meat...
> 
> The store has a cut of meat that is not selling, or maybe it has a cut that has sat in the meat case for 3 days...they need to do something with it. What do you think they do with it so they don't take a loss on it? That's right, they make it into ground meat. How old is that meat? Do you know?


Very good point, However Ive ate it my whole life and grinding didnt produce the results I wanted, or so I thought. We shall see if things change. I might re visit grinding my own.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Yes, hanging it...with 1" clearance between each coil hanging on a rod. Probably can't get 12.5# of snack sticks in there though.
> Did you do the sausage hanger mod to your MES? There are some guys that have posted pictures....


hmm nope. Do you have a link by chance? I smoke more snack sticks and jerky than anything.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> hmm nope. Do you have a link by chance? I smoke more snack sticks and jerky than anything.


You'll have to ask some of the MES owners to point you in the right direction of post pics....

Basically, you cut a board that is narrow enough to slide between the top rack channel and the side wall. cut it 2" long, then notch it lengthwise so it will slide down into the rack channel with the notches as stops. Cut some half moons out along the top for your dowels. Space the half moon cuts 3~4" or so apart. Cut your dowels to length.... voila', sausage hanger rack for a MES....
Use a board wide enough so the top of the board is about 1.5" from the ceiling of the MES. This will optimize the space for hanging sausages.


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## paul2002 (Feb 5, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> You'll have to ask some of the MES owners to point you in the right direction of post pics....
> 
> Basically, you cut a board that is narrow enough to slide between the top rack channel and the side wall. cut it 2" long, then notch it lengthwise so it will slide down into the rack channel. cut some half moons out along the top for your dowels. space the cuts 3~4" or so apart. Cut your dowels to length.... voila', sausage hanger rack for a MES....


awesome thank you!


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2019)

I edited my post for clarity...


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2019)

Paul, evening.....  I do sticks and they come out pretty good...  I don't run my smoker over 160....   
I do the temp raise thing...  start at 110 ish...   dry the outside of the casings...   then add smoke for a few hours until they have the smoke I like...  then raise the smoker to 160....  I hold the 160 temp for 24 hours...  the fat doesn't melt....  the sticks will dry from the water added....   At 24 hours they are at a temp of about 135-140....  They won't get any warmer due to evaporative cooling from the moisture inside the casing .....
Looking at a pasteurization table,  they are very safe to eat...  they are not overly dry but I think they are perfect....
As you can note from the USDA chart below, 121 minutes at 130 def. F, will return a 7 log lethality...  That leaves only 1 bacteria alive out of every 1,000,000 bacteria in the meat....  I figure after 24 hours at 160, the meat has been at 130 for at least 3-4 hours so more bacteria has been killed....  It's a time at given temp that does them in...  
If you have the capability, give this method a try....  you might like it...   Dave

I have no idea why the disclaimer of final temp. has been added at the bottom of the chart...  All sous vide charts say the meat is safe after the time/temp has been achieved....  Maybe it's an "insurance" disclaimer....


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Paul, evening.....  I do sticks and they come out pretty good...  I don't run my smoker over 160....
> I do the temp raise thing...  start at 110 ish...   dry the outside of the casings...   then add smoke for a few hours until they have the smoke I like...  then raise the smoker to 160....  I hold the 160 temp for 24 hours...  the fat doesn't melt....  the sticks will dry from the water added....   At 24 hours they are at a temp of about 135-140....  They won't get any warmer due to evaporative cooling from the moisture inside the casing .....
> Looking at a pasteurization table,  they are very safe to eat...  they are not overly dry but I think they are perfect....
> As you can note from the USDA chart below, 121 minutes at 130 def. F, will return a 7 log lethality...  That leaves only 1 bacteria alive out of every 1,000,000 bacteria in the meat....  I figure after 24 hours at 160, the meat has been at 130 for at least 3-4 hours so more bacteria has been killed....  It's a time at given temp that does them in...
> ...


Awesome! Thank you. I just pulled mine out after 12 hours. Temp raised to 170 from 130 step raises. As you read I did a cup of water, which most guys here seem to think that's my problem.  I probably smoked them 6 hours longer than any other attempt.  They have been my best yet! They still have some work to do. So I'm going to combine a bunch of stuff I learned here today the next time I do it. And hopefully I'll have it nailed down! 
Thank you for the input.


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## indaswamp (Feb 6, 2019)

Paul2012. that's what this site is all about...glad we could help....


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Paul2012. that's what this site is all about...glad we could help....


Yes. It was a huge help. And a ton of support from a lot of people


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## chopsaw (Feb 6, 2019)

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...ack-mes40-w-step-by-step.174140/#post-1288097


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

chopsaw said:


> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...ack-mes40-w-step-by-step.174140/#post-1288097


Great! Thank you!


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## indaswamp (Feb 6, 2019)

Thanks for posting chopsaw...


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## DIYerDave (Feb 6, 2019)

Hey there Paul. Hang in there on making your smokies. You'll get there.


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## SonnyE (Feb 6, 2019)

Good luck. Glad to see you are getting somewhere.


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

DIYerDave said:


> Hey there Paul. Hang in there on making your smokies. You'll get there.


Thank you, And I feel I've gained some huge tips from this post. Last nights batch came out much better than any other attempt, just by letting them go in longer. So once I reduce or remove the water... I think Ill be right on the money.


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> Good luck. Glad to see you are getting somewhere.


Thank You. You guys were a huge help


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## paul2002 (Feb 6, 2019)

foamheart said:


> Simple. You just need to smoke 'em longer to get the water out. You can add a gallon of H20 in your mix if you don't mind smoking for a day or two to dewater 'em.
> 
> I don't know your smoker, but I do stix in an electric. I start off for 45 mins to one hour on high heat 275 degrees. BUT I leave the vent wide open and the door cracked and just on latch. Then I add smoke and turn down my temp to sustain whatever smoking time I which to use. When they are dry, where I want them I pull 'em.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info! Last nights batch came out much better! Still had a cup of water. It was already mixed when I wrote this post. but last night I smoked them for 6 hours PAST the time the thermometer read 155 totl of 12 hours...and pulled them when I thought they looked and felt good. and it was 2am and I needed to get to bed. lol. they could have used a little more time I think. But I have high hopes for the next batch where I will use less or no water. I will also try your high heat FIRST method. I think that will save some considerable time. 
When You say you bring it down after an hour... lets say you want a 6-8 smoke... what temp would you set it at?
Thanks again!


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## forgiven1 (Jul 3, 2019)

foamheart said:


> I don't know your smoker, but I do stix in an electric. I start off for 45 mins to one hour on high heat 275 degrees.



When you do this do you have a problem with grease pockets between the casing and the meat?    Sometimes I get that issue and places where the meat seems to shrink away from the casing.   I was thinking that maybe I had gone too high on the temp?   Not really sure though.


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## foamheart (Jul 4, 2019)

forgiven1 said:


> When you do this do you have a problem with grease pockets between the casing and the meat?    Sometimes I get that issue and places where the meat seems to shrink away from the casing.   I was thinking that maybe I had gone too high on the temp?   Not really sure though.



If you are liquifying the fat you are getting it too hot. Have you ever tried using your temperature sensing device on your stix? I always do. Its not unusually for me to leave the door cracked open in the begining with all vents wide open. This is to dewater or get the moisture out of the casing and the smoking chamber. Why? Smoke can not transfer thru water or moisture. The drier your meat/casing the faster and better the smoke will adhere.

Always reefer them overnight before smoking. The reefer works using dehydration to cool. so that means that it is actually drying the casing before you even get to the smoker.

I will say this, its my opinion, and some others that the meat has a  smoke sweet spot. It's the IT of about 90 to 150, everything above or below will still see smoke and absorb but at a much lessor degree. I hardly ever raise the temp of cured meat in the smoker above 120. That is my magic number to keep the fat from rendering. Crack the vents, crack the door, turn down your smoker and watch that IT. once you stable it out at 110 to 120, it's its just about applying smoke till you are happy. The hotter at the beginning the faster to loose the moisture but don't let that temp get away from you. 

I am smoking sausage tomorrow and doing all these things just
as I have told you.


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## foamheart (Jul 4, 2019)

paul2002 said:


> Thanks for the info! Last nights batch came out much better! Still had a cup of water. It was already mixed when I wrote this post. but last night I smoked them for 6 hours PAST the time the thermometer read 155 totl of 12 hours...and pulled them when I thought they looked and felt good. and it was 2am and I needed to get to bed. lol. they could have used a little more time I think. But I have high hopes for the next batch where I will use less or no water. I will also try your high heat FIRST method. I think that will save some considerable time.
> When You say you bring it down after an hour... lets say you want a 6-8 smoke... what temp would you set it at?
> Thanks again!



Sorry I seemed to have missed this. I wasn't ignoring you. I can't tell you times anymore than temperatures. Its about how you smoke, the meat and the what your smoker likes. Its why they are called pitmasters. Time and temp just don't work and smoking is not an exact science like math, its more an about experience & knowledge or an art. Its about applied wisdom vice memorized intellect. With a temp monitor it will cut your mastery time sizably and make sure you serve safe foods while learning but you still have to experiment then when you feel you have it all figured out you take on another type meat, or a different pit, or different modifiers. The great thing is you get delicious food and you never cease to need to practice to learn.


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## zwiller (Aug 21, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Paul, evening.....  I do sticks and they come out pretty good...  I don't run my smoker over 160....
> I do the temp raise thing...  start at 110 ish...   dry the outside of the casings...   then add smoke for a few hours until they have the smoke I like...  then raise the smoker to 160....  I hold the 160 temp for 24 hours...  the fat doesn't melt....  the sticks will dry from the water added....   At 24 hours they are at a temp of about 135-140....  They won't get any warmer due to evaporative cooling from the moisture inside the casing .....
> Looking at a pasteurization table,  they are very safe to eat...  they are not overly dry but I think they are perfect....
> As you can note from the USDA chart below, 121 minutes at 130 def. F, will return a 7 log lethality...  That leaves only 1 bacteria alive out of every 1,000,000 bacteria in the meat....  I figure after 24 hours at 160, the meat has been at 130 for at least 3-4 hours so more bacteria has been killed....  It's a time at given temp that does them in...
> ...



Dave, I really like your method and plan to try it.  Can I ask you to clarify?  

1. If you do, how much water do you add?  Say like for 5lbs sticks.  I am running a tiny 10mm tube so think I should use some water like 10%.  
2. How long is smoke?  Guessing like 5-6hrs/2 rows AMNPS
3. STPP or other other binder?  
4. Stuff and rest overnight rest?  

THANKS


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## daveomak (Aug 22, 2019)

??? 10MM tube ???  are you sure ??  How can you shove meat through that ??

Anywho...  Surface area per pound of meat is really high..  Doesn't take a lot of smoke..  Your personal preference ...  go for it..  
I use no fat in my sticks..  as little as possible anyway...    93/7 at the meat market or grind my own chuck, which is best..  I add STPP at 0.4%...   I use 21MM collagen casings...   I like NESCO Jerky seasoning or I've used Legg's #116 or Legg's #103 Hot Italian sausage seasoning..   I try different flavors...
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/beef-sticks-21mm-with-leggs-116-money-shot.230920/

......Mix until sticky.......










..


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## daveomak (Aug 22, 2019)

Found another thread....  

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/beef-sticks-with-home-made-stuffing-tubes.133405/

..


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## zwiller (Aug 22, 2019)

Thanks Dave.  Yes, sure it is 10mm as I had to order it.  No idea if it will work but I sure hope so!


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## hoity toit (Aug 22, 2019)

I would check the thermometer in the MES for accuracy. It would not hurt to use a couple of temp probes in the links to check the internal temp as it is being smoked.

HT


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## chopsaw (Aug 22, 2019)

zwiller said:


> Thanks Dave.  Yes, sure it is 10mm as I had to order it.  No idea if it will work but I sure hope so!


Right around 3/8 . I would have everything ready for stuffing , then mix and stuff right away . Hold over night in the casings , like you said above .


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## zwiller (Sep 3, 2019)

So... The 10mm tube worked.  For the most part.  LOL.  I couldn't manage it  when cranking "up" but a clamp might fix that.  Overall not a disaster for the first time using a stuffer I suppose.  Unfortunately, had the opposite problem of this thread.  Dried out a bunch more than I should have.  Might be since I rested overnight uncovered AND Dave's 24hr method.  Peeked with a few hours to go and glad I did!  Used Owen's hot stick spice and that stuff is HOT and I am reserving judgement on final taste after a week but not really blown away with it.  Anyone have any idea what Troyer uses on their sticks?


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## chopsaw (Sep 3, 2019)

zwiller said:


> reserving judgement on final taste after a week but not really blown away with it


Give it some time . I did the Owens regular stix . I put them in a brown paper bag and in the fridge for 3 to 4 weeks . I like the sticks  drier , and the flavor was really good after the long rest . I used sheep casings . 
Try some at 1 week . If you still feel the same pull again at 2 weeks .


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## zwiller (Sep 3, 2019)

So the flavor deepens/strengthens over time?  Mine seem bland.  Don't get me wrong, I am happy they are even edible and even tasty but these are no where near the level of flavor I am used to.


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## chopsaw (Sep 3, 2019)

I'm thinking that as they dry out more , the flavor becomes stronger . Mine were way better after they sat that long compared to right after I smoked them .


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## forgiven1 (Sep 3, 2019)

I find aging the sticks or sausages to be beneficial in most cases.   Good flavors seem to meld and intensify while bad ones tend to fade IMO.


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