# Acceptable levels of nitrate in Tender Quick or Celery Powder vs. Prague #2



## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

Is the nitrate content simply much lower in TQ and CP than the amount in #2 cure? Or is it a trial/error or "better safe than sorry" thing where we don't know well enough?

 I have never used TQ, but the meat i've cured with celery powder is inexplicably better than using cure #1. It may very well have just been better luck on the smoker. I'd assume that using some amount of nitrate would make it last longer in the fridge; If enough moisture was lost during smoking, perhaps very long?


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2021)

Nitrate does not cure meat at refrigeration temperatures..   The bacteria required for nitrate breakdown is not active...  Meat temps above~50F is required...


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## smokin peachey (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Is the nitrate content simply much lower in TQ and CP than the amount in #2 cure? Or is it a trial/error or "better safe than sorry" thing where we don't know well enough?
> 
> I have never used TQ, but the meat i've cured with celery powder is inexplicably better than using cure #1. It may very well have just been better luck on the smoker. I'd assume that using some amount of nitrate would make it last longer in the fridge; If enough moisture was lost during smoking, perhaps very long?


I agree meats that get the celery juice powder treatment are inexplicably better then curing with cure 1.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

daveomak said:


> Nitrate does not cure meat at refrigeration temperatures..   The bacteria required for nitrate breakdown is not active...  Meat temps above~50F is required...


I could easily be mistaken but I thought nitrate (before conversion) is still a preservative against some bacteria. The above 50*F and into room temp, outside of curing chambers, as I understand it, IS a trial and error science based on centuries of meat preservation. I'm not really wondering about "proper" long term/cure #2, ultimately just why nitrates are used and considered acceptable for short cures in Tender Quick, Celery Powder etc. yet prague #2 is almost never used.


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## DanMcG (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew, could you share the label for your celery powder, I like to see what it has for nitrates/ nitrites.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

DanMcG said:


> Hamdrew, could you share the label for your celery powder, I like to see what it has for nitrates/ nitrites.


Sure it is this stuff:


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## DanMcG (Aug 10, 2021)

thanks. the 508 has only nitrite. No nitrates.


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## DanMcG (Aug 10, 2021)

Tender quick and #2 both have nitrites to do the curing at safe temp's for ya.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

DanMcG said:


> thanks. the 508 has only nitrite. No nitrates.


I was unsure about that. I'd (possibly incorrectly) remembered reading this-
_"This product is used as a natural way to cure your products. Celery is juiced, then fermented to covert (reduce) some of the nitrate to nitrite. After the juice is fermented it is tumble dried, then its nitrite content is measured. Once the nitrite content is found the powder is standardized by bulking with sea salt (much the same way cure is). This process is done after ever harvest, as the nitrite content varies from batch to batch, but will consistently be standardized to the same ppm for consistency. It does not impart a celery flavor to your product. This is the industry standard for natural nitrite cures, and is used commercially by many famous Salumeria’ in the US. "_
however I see now that is for a different supplier's "508-30k".

I figure there's little chance of it like any proprietary seasoning, but has Tender Quick's nitrate content ever been stated?


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> but has Tender Quick's nitrate content ever been stated?


Right on the bag. 0.5% nitrite and 0.5% nitrate.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

Thanks 

 SmokinEdge
 ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though?  I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).


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## indaswamp (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Thanks
> 
> SmokinEdge
> ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though?  I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).


General rule of thumb for curing in general is that nitrites are used when the curing will be done in 30 days or less. Nitrates are used in combination with nitrites for longer time frames.


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## smokin peachey (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Sure it is this stuff:
> View attachment 507333


Is that from the great folks at butcher packer?


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

smokin peachey said:


> Is that from the great folks at butcher packer?


Indeed it is



 indaswamp
  I realize that, I am ultimately just wondering why TQ's residual nitrates are considered acceptable whereas Cure #2 is virtually never used for short-term cures.


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> I could easily be mistaken but I thought nitrate (before conversion) is still a preservative against some bacteria. The above 50*F and into room temp, outside of curing chambers, as I understand it, IS a trial and error science based on centuries of meat preservation. I'm not really wondering about "proper" long term/cure #2, ultimately just why nitrates are used and considered acceptable for short cures in Tender Quick, Celery Powder etc. yet prague #2 is almost never used.



NITRATES are NOT acceptable for short term curing.....
The science is NOT trial and error...
Centuries of meat preservation did NOT have refrigeration....

Click on this link and read what it has to say...   There are hundreds of papers on nitrite and nitrate in food preservation...
index.php (meatinstitute.org)


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Thanks
> 
> SmokinEdge
> ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though?  I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).


Cure #2 has 1.0% nitrate. TQ has 0.5% nitrate.
so TQ has half as much nitrate as does cure #2. Although, you apply more TQ than cure #2. There really isn’t anything wrong with using cure #2 for short curing, unless it’s bacon. USDA says no nitrates can be used in bacon, thus Morton salt states on their website not to use TQ or the “sugar” cure on bacon.

I have said for a long time that TQ is out dated in many ways. Mostly because the vast majority of us use refrigeration to perform our curing duties. Nitrates do not cure directly, but nitrites do and do well at refrigeration temps. So even if you want to do salami in Umai casings in the refrigerator , I would only use cure #1, however if you are making salami in a curing chamber at 59*F then for sure use cure #2.

As to why celery extract can be used,
1) nitrate is naturally occurring and not added to the celery.
2) most all of it has been fermented, those lactic bacteria can convert nitrate to nitrite. So no nitrates are actually being used.
3) celery is considered a flavoring, not curing agent.


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## daveomak (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Thanks
> 
> SmokinEdge
> ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though? * I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines*).



The USDA could not, in good conscience, put Morton's out of business, when it came to nitrates in meats BECAUSE, nitrates pose NO health risk in the quantities in Morton's products..  
Some vegetables have more nitrates than Morton's Tender Quick, in the quantities recommended..


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

If TQ has the same level of nitrite and nitrate, vs. the 6.25:1 in cure #2, I'd figure that means that the appropriate amount of TQ for short-term curing = more nitrate than using cure #2? I realize that sodium nitrate alone is not suitable for curing, and that many vegetables contain more nitrates. Also, many junk foods I enjoy, hotdogs and some pepperoni for example. I would guess that there is at least SOME  subtle difference in flavor from the nitrate when using #2 vs #1.

The trial-and-error I was referring to was just about pre-refridgeration, that it is often a gamble when not using a set/stable curing chamber, and as is still sometimes done when making charcuterie. I only mentioned it to clarify that I am NOT asking about long-term curing, but why cure #2 is almost never used. I am under the impression that it is simply considered an unnecessary risk/health concern


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## indaswamp (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew- you have to understand the history behind the creation of  Morton's tender quick. It was formulated as a multi functional cure for anything from sausages to bacon, hams to summer sausages.... back in the day when everyone processed their pigs in the fall on the farm.

There were a lot of recipes developed specifically for it's use and some people still follow them out of tradition. Which is why Morton's is still around today.


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Hamdrew- you have to understand the history behind the creation of  Morton's tender quick. It was formulated as a multi functional cure for anything from sausages to bacon, hams to summer sausages.... back in the day when everyone processed their pigs in the fall on the farm.
> 
> There were a lot of recipes developed specifically for it's use and some people still follow them out of tradition. Which is why Morton's is still around today.


True
Also in those days, Morton’s TQ was a revolutionary proprietary cure blend that included Nitrites for “quick” curing. You could cure small cutlets or poultry in the kitchen. This was huge. This was also a time when the dominant cure method was Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter) and salt. So yes, in its day it was the stuff to get. Today, not so much. Technology marches forward.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Technology marches forward.


Yet many hot dogs remain the same, LOL. On a serious note, though, isn't a good smoke ring (i.e. nitrate absorption) desired?  In any case, I am going to eventually try cure 1 vs cure 2 vs celery powder, maybe even order some tender quick; possibly sooner than later as boneless loins are on sale for 1.50/lb here


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Yet many hot dogs remain the same, LOL. On a serious note, though, isn't a good smoke ring (i.e. nitrate absorption) desired?  In any case, I am going to eventually try cure 1 vs cure 2 vs celery powder, maybe even order some tender quick; possibly sooner than later as boneless loins are on sale for 1.50/lb here


You seem to blur the line a bit between Nitrate (NaNo3) and Nitrite (NaNo2) here is how this chemically works.

Nitrate (NaNo3) is converted to Nitrite (NaNo2) the nitrite then reacts with protein in the meat and converts to Nitrous acid (HNO2) that converts to Nitric Oxide (NO) Nitric Oxide bonds with myoglobin and becomes nitrosomyoglobin thats the pink/red color in cured meat. The Nitric Acid is what takes care of botulism. This is how that part of curing occurs.

Now as far as the pink ring in bbq meat goes, it’s the Nitric Oxide released in the burning of wood that fixes itself to the myoglobin and creates the pink ring When smoking meat. Carbon monoxide can do this as well, but will fade once exposed to oxygen.

Just remember that Nitrate (NaNo3) cannot convert to Nitrite (NaNo2) unless temps are above 45*F and sufficient numbers of micrococci and lactobacilli bacteria are present. Otherwise no curing will occur.


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## indaswamp (Aug 10, 2021)

One thing I would like to mention is that nitrate (NO3) is not recommended for use when making bacon or any other cured product that will be fried over high heat. This is to reduce nitrousamine formation. The USDA does not allow commercial producers to add nitrate to bacon. I don't recommend it either....for smoke sausage either if it will be sliced and fried for inclusion in gumbos, jambalayas and such.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> You seem to blur the line a bit between Nitrate (NaNo3) and Nitrite (NaNo2) here is how this chemically works.
> 
> Nitrate (NaNo3) is converted to Nitrite (NaNo2) the nitrite then reacts with protein in the meat and converts to Nitric acid (HNO2) that converts to Nitric Oxide (NO) Nitric Oxide bonds with myoglobin and becomes nitrosomyoglobin thats the pink/red color in cured meat. The Nitric Acid is what takes care of botulism. This is how that part of curing occurs.
> 
> ...


I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide. I do know that nitrate won't be converted under refrigeration, and was trying to clarify TQ's general "acceptability" vs short-term cure #2 use (or even fried veggies) and whether or not nitrate itself has some preservative qualities (given it's used in hot dogs etc.)


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide.


Are you serious? I just explained this.
nitric acid and nitric oxide are formed FROM NITRITE.
And Nitrite is formed FROM NITRATE.


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## Killa J (Aug 10, 2021)

What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> and was trying to clarify TQ's general "acceptability" vs short-term cure #2 use (or even fried veggies


This is a good question. TQ has ”grandfathered” in is my best explanation. The USDA has banned nitrate being added to bacon only, and Morton has since posted on their website not to use TQ for bacon. The celery thing is allowed because no nitrates/nitrites are added to the celery, therefore, by USDA definition celery is not a curing agent, only a flavor additive.
You can’t even buy Sodium Nitrate in Canada, it’s completely banned there.


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Killa J said:


> What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.


Correct, it is a loop hole for anti-nitrate people to still have their bacon.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Are you serious? I just explained this.
> nitric acid and nitric oxide are formed FROM NITRITE.
> And Nitrite is formed FROM NITRATE.


Yes I am serious, I THOUGHT- as in past tense- before you corrected me (and thank you for that correction). Because of this quick search/study-
_ The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−). _ I realize that  the in-vivo interaction could easily be, and apparently is, different. Again I know that nitrate is used in long term cures since it forms nitrite, but am wondering why nitrates are used in hot dogs and some lunch meats if there is literally no perceived benefit.

As for using veg cure, it seems most commonly used for that b/s "no nitrites/nitrates added", but appears to have other benefits for some people who don't tolerate cure #1/2 well. Personally I just find it to taste better like I said. Sucks that it is so much pricier than regular cure, so I have been saving it solely for belly bacon.


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## indaswamp (Aug 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Correct, it is a loop hole for anti-*SYNTHETIC* nitrate people to still have their bacon.


Fixed it for you...
Nitrate is nitrate.....it is 100% chemically the same.


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 10, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Yes I am serious, I THOUGHT- as in past tense- before you corrected me (and thank you for that correction). Because of this quick search/study-
> _ The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−). _ I realize that  the in-vivo interaction could easily be, and apparently is, different. Again I know that nitrate is used in long term cures since it forms nitrite, but am wondering why nitrates are used in hot dogs and some lunch meats if there is literally no perceived benefit.
> 
> As for using veg cure, it seems most commonly used for that b/s "no nitrites/nitrates added", but appears to have other benefits for some people who don't tolerate cure #1/2 well. Personally I just find it to taste better like I said. Sucks that it is so much pricier than regular cure, so I have been saving it solely for belly bacon.




 Hamdrew
 ,
you are talking in circles that keep bringing you back to using Nitrates for short cure times. Even after having it all explained to you. One excuse after another as to why you SHOULD. Well, tear it up buddy. I’ve tried to explain it all. I don’t recommend where you are going.


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## Fueling Around (Aug 10, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> One thing I would like to mention is that nitrate (NO3) is not recommended for use when making bacon or any other cured product that will be fried over high heat. This is to reduce nitrousamine formation. The USDA does not allow commercial producers to add nitrate to bacon. I don't recommend it either....for smoke sausage either if it will be sliced and fried for inclusion in gumbos, jambalayas and such.


Commercial cured meat generally prohibits use of nitrates.  Residual nitrates in cooked meats turn into nitrosamines (no U)
Nitrosamines is on the carcinogenic hot list which is very true and got cured meats on the bad list for many years.
This is also why injected meats with nitrites requires adding sodium eythrobate (SE).  SE neutralizes any residual nitrites.
No evidence that residual nitrites convert to nitrosamines, but politics get involved...

Remember a majority of the USDA policy is political not practical.



Killa J said:


> What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.




 SmokinEdge
 gave the quick answer.
Some state that naturally derived nitrAtes is better than synthetic. 
I don't have a clue.
Thankfully USDA labeling is supposed to get updated and the celery powdered products will be listed as "cured" to stop deceiving the populous.


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 11, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> Commercial cured meat generally prohibits use of nitrates.  Residual nitrates in cooked meats turn into nitrosamines (no U)
> Nitrosamines is on the carcinogenic hot list which is very true and got cured meats on the bad list for many years.
> This is also why injected meats with nitrites requires adding sodium eythrobate (SE).  SE neutralizes any residual nitrites.
> No evidence that residual nitrites convert to nitrosamines, but politics get involved...
> ...


Only problem with that logic is that, the celery, broccoli, Kahle, spinach, beats whatever all get the nitrate from the soil. The farmer applies synthetic man made fertilizer on the crops. And even if it’s cow sh$t that cow ate corn raised with the same man made fertilizer. This nitrate thing is just going in circles. It’s all derived from the same source. But this product is good and that product is bad.  The American people are constantly lied to all for profit share. No real problem as long as you can think for yourself. Apparently most cannot.


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## PolishDeli (Aug 12, 2021)

Nitrate (NO3-) and Nitrite (NO2-) are ions.
They form ionic compouds.
e.g., sodium nitrite (NaNO2) and potassium nitrite (KNO2).

These molecules have very different weights.
NaNO2 = 69g/mol
KNO2 = 85g/mol

Why does this matter?
Because, when we calculate ppm levels for curing, we are really calculating a wt%.

If you use the same ppm for KNO2 as for NaNO2, you get a different number of NO2- ions. Therefore, the meat gets cured to different levels.

What ioinic compound(s) is/are present in CJP and how much?
Answer: Unknown


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## indaswamp (Aug 12, 2021)




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## PolishDeli (Aug 13, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide.





 Hamdrew
  You're not wrong.  NO does convert back to NO3. NO2 does also. (Its called oxidation, not decomposition)

BUT that part of the Nitrogen cycle does not occur when curing meat.  Here, we really only care about the nitrogen half-cycle summarized by 

 SmokinEdge

(Though, it is nitrous acid [HNO2] - not nitric acid [HNO3] -  that gets formed along the way.  Nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff.)

Also, it looks like you're quoting from an article in _Anesthesiology_. Breathing and blood flow play a roll there.
Searching for nitate/nitrite info, you could also easily end up in the field of Environmental Science.  In that case, the Nitrogen cycle is driven by animals, fungus, bacteria, and lightning.

Mind your sources.  The Anesthesiology article is legit, but not relevant.  You need a meat science source.


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## indaswamp (Aug 13, 2021)

Great point PolishDeli!


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 13, 2021)

.


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## PolishDeli (Aug 13, 2021)

SmokinEdge
 ,

I was to writing to 

 Hamdrew
 .
The following statement he provided appears to come from _Anesthesiology_ December 2010, Vol. 113, 1460–1475.


Hamdrew said:


> The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−)



I singled you out in my response to him, because you provided a good summary of the Nitrogen cycle - as it pertains to curing meat.


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## Hamdrew (Aug 13, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Hamdrew
> ,
> you are talking in circles that keep bringing you back to using Nitrates for short cure times. Even after having it all explained to you. One excuse after another as to why you SHOULD. Well, tear it up buddy. I’ve tried to explain it all. I don’t recommend where you are going.


I was just confused as to why TQ is ever still used, as well as nitrates in hot dogs and vegetables etc. 

 Fueling Around
 gave the answer I was looking for re: other required additives.


P
 PolishDeli
 I realized that the human body is at play, is what I meant by my previous comment "in vivo could and apparently does change it".  I do really appreciate your taking time to explain in depth, all this is very interesting to me.



 SmokinEdge
 I would never recommend it for those reasons, but yes I am going to try to compare to see if there is any difference in flavor, once. The rest of my cure #2 will be used for its intended purpose in the proper curing conditions and with the proper bacteria etc. when needed. (I am particularly excited to try koji bacteria after reading reports of a pork tenderloin finishing/full moisture loss in _four days!_)


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 13, 2021)

P
 PolishDeli
 , sorry for the confusion. I’m slow.

What are your thoughts on nitrite pooling and becoming nitrates in say salami? Some places I’ve read claim no nitrate is needed because of the “ pool effect “ of nitrite. I don’t have a lab and am not a scientist.


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## indaswamp (Aug 13, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> P
> PolishDeli
> , sorry for the confusion. I’m slow.
> 
> What are your thoughts on nitrite pooling and becoming nitrates in say salami? Some places I’ve read claim no nitrate is needed because of the “ pool effect “ of nitrite. I don’t have a lab and am not a scientist.


Nitrite pooling? got a link?


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 13, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Nitrite pooling? got a link?


Pm sent.


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## PolishDeli (Aug 14, 2021)

I'm not familiar with that term, but here are my thoughts on the hypothesized process you describe:

It is easier for NO2 to grab an oxygen atom than it is for it to let one go. It wants to be NO3 - not NO2, not  NO.

However, in the middle of a sausage,  there isnt really any free oxygen available. That's why botulism is a concern, and why we use cultures like bactoferm t-spx.  Anaerobic condition result in grown of anaerobic bacteria.  Anaerobic condition would not favor oxidation of NO2.

Similarly, cure#1 does not become cure#2 in water. Even though there is a lot of oxygen in H2O, there is very little free oxygen.

Maybe I'm missing something, but with all of that in mind, i don't see a path for NO2 to create significant "reserves" of NO3.  I would not advocate in favor of skipping out on cure#2 in situations that warrant its use.


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## daveomak (Aug 16, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> P
> PolishDeli
> , sorry for the confusion. I’m slow.
> 
> What are your thoughts on nitrite pooling and becoming nitrates in say salami? Some places I’ve read claim no nitrate is needed because of the “ pool effect “ of nitrite. I don’t have a lab and am not a scientist.




Could you please provide links to those articles....


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