# I wonder what I'm making.



## czarkovich (Nov 9, 2012)

*For all SMF Members and visitors reading this thread...The techniques of Sausage making in this thread are DANGEROUS and should not be attempted...JJ*

I know it may sound weird, but I have no idea what I am making. I've been making what my family calls kielbasa by myself for three years. My grandpa says he learned how to make it back in Croatia then my late father built a smokehouse on his property and taught me how to make it. Basically I wait 'till its cold here in Virginia then I coarse grind pork butt, mix the ingredients (namely salt, pepper, garlic and red zinfandel) and let it sit for a day or so in the fridge. I stuff the casings, hang them and start smoking with green apple wood. I smoke it for about a week on and off and then it stays in the smokehouse for about another six weeks. Third time by myself is a charm I hope. The first year I ground the meat too fine and it was dry. Last year I smoked it way too much. I'm not sure if my grandpa has the best memory and my dad isn't around to give me pointers. Any suggestions or info on just what it is that I'm doing would be greatly appreciated.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 9, 2012)

If you're not using cure (nitrite) you're taking a very big risk.



~Martin


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## smokinhusker (Nov 9, 2012)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> If you're not using cure (nitrite) you're taking a very big risk.
> 
> 
> 
> ~Martin


X2


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## junkcollector (Nov 9, 2012)

beats the snot outta me what it is but it sounds good. got measurements on those spices for 5 or 10 lbs? 

ddf & sh already covered the cure


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## bluebombersfan (Nov 9, 2012)

Hmmmm.....any cure in there??


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

*For all SMF Members and visitors reading this thread...The techniques of Sausage making in this thread are DANGEROUS and should not be attempted...JJ*

the only recipe I have is for 50lbs. ill post it on here in the morning if you like. I'm pretty excited to get this going. I just hung it to dry in my smokehouse and I'm going to start smoking it tomorrow.


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

*For all SMF Members and visitors reading this thread...The techniques of Sausage making in this thread are DANGEROUS and should not be attempted...JJ*

I use 32oz of wine and a pound of salt per 50lbs... from what I understand these ingredients are what cures it. Honestly, I have no idea. I'm trying to learn more about what my family has always done. Thanks again for the feedback.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 10, 2012)

You are using 2% salt which I don't think is enough to protect Sausage that does not contain any Cure (Nitrite). Your weather forecast the next 7 days is 55 to 72*F during the Day and 41 to 58*F at night...These temperatures are Dangerously High for Cold Smoking Sausage that does not have a Cure.  I would suggest Freezing the Sausage and waiting another 4-6 weeks or until the average temperature will be below 40*F...JJ


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## boykjo (Nov 10, 2012)

Salt will not cure the sausage. One pound of salt is around a pint of salt for 50 lbs which is about three time more salt that is added to regular sausage but. Bacteria, or other germs, need four things to thrive - time, food, moisture and the right temperatures. Bacteria, or other germs won't grow when the temperature of the food is *colder than 41º F or hotter than 140º F.* When foods are in temperatures range between *41ºF and 140ºF *they are in *the "Danger Zone."* You need to keep potentially hazardous foods out of the "Danger Zone!"  When food is left in the "Danger Zone", bacteria can grow fast, and become poisons that can make your family very sick.

Also the green wood would give you a bitter taste.

Like Martin said. your taking a big risk...


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

*For all SMF Members and visitors reading this thread...The techniques of Sausage making in this thread are DANGEROUS and should not be attempted...JJ*

Thanks a lot guys. Last year when I was smoking the kielbasa the outside temp ranged from the 20's to as high as the 70's during the six or seven weeks I had it hanging in my smokehouse. Thankfully, I live in a bit of a higher elevation and I'm not expecting it to get warmer than 65 this weekend. Still I'm not comfortable with that but I guess I really don't have many options. Haha, you guys got me more worried than my Grandpa does. I talked to him last night and he started going on about how they did it in Croatia and how they didn't worry much about the temp unless it was particularly warm for more than a day. Something about how I'm spoiled for having a grinder and that making kielbasa was all hands on deck for two or three days. I understand the concerns but as it stands I think I'm going to go ahead and start smoking it. I don't really have the room to put all the kielbasa 'on ice'. If anything I would be out about $130. As far as the green wood it concerned, this is honestly the first time I have heard of not using green wood. This is my third batch but I had been on the helping end for about 20 years (I'm 27 now). I've been keeping a log with pictures and if this goes poorly then I'll know why. The German and Croatian stock of my family have all told me to shut up and make it so they will have some for the holidays. I'll be sure to test it on myself before sending it all over the country.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

Czarkovich said:


> I understand the concerns but as it stands I think I'm going to go ahead and start smoking it.



Sorry, but I'm afraid you don't understand the concerns, what you're doing is extremely unsafe!!!!!

I know that there are many folks around the world who ignore the cardinal rule of meat curing and smoking at low temperatures, that being …..”If it can’t be cured (with nitrate/nitrite), don’t smoke it.”

When smoking at less than 160-180 degrees F (some say more), cure should always be used!

Please be aware of the risks.

Clostridium botulinum bacteria need moisture, warm temperatures and the absence of oxygen to thrive. Those conditions are prevalent in a smoker when cold or warm smoking, where incoming air is kept at a minimum in order for the wood to smolder.

Botulism is a rare, but serious, *often deadly*, illness caused by Clostridium botulinum bacteria.

Nitrate and nitrite, are the ONLY reliable botulism preventatives!

Clostridium botulinum bacterium is present nearly everywhere that isn’t sterile or well sanitized, and while there may be more danger in smoking something like sausages without proper care and cure, the danger is still present with whole muscle meats.
People smoke in numerous ways in numerous containers at numerous smoke and oxygen levels, it’s impossible to accurately know if there’s enough oxygen to stay safe.

While the risk of deadly botulism may be small, the danger is great.

It’s akin to driving without a seat belt, you may get away with it for 30 years or tomorrow you may meet tragedy.

It’s not worth the gamble considering the small cost of a tiny bit of nitrite/nitrate.

*I strongly recommend that you use cure (nitrite)!!!!*

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 10, 2012)

Gentlemen, You can only lead them to Water...JJ


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

Ok, I'm trying to make sense of it all... I'm not quite sure I understand where I would be at risk of botulism if it needs the lack of oxygen to occur. I smoke my sausage in a smokehouse. The fire pit sits about four feet off to the side with flue liners underground directing the smoke into the floor of the smokehouse. The smokehouse itself has 1/4 inch slits between the boards on of the walls and is lined on the inside with screening. The meat hangs in the top and there is, what I call, a kooplah that sits on the roof that I can open and close to regulate smoke.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm not going to argue, what you're doing has long been known to be unsafe.

You're smoking moist ground meat in casings (low oxygen) in a smokehouse (low oxygen) at the perfect temp for botulinum growth.

If you ignore the danger, PLEASE don't feed the stuff to children or other innocent folks!!!!!



~Martin


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

Also I put 32oz of red wine in 50lbs of pork. Aren't there nitrates in the wine? I'm really not trying to be difficult... but the kielbasa was already processed when I got on here and I really don't have anywhere to put it except for the smokehouse.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

Czarkovich said:


> Also I put 32oz of red wine in 50lbs of pork. Aren't there nitrates in the wine? I'm really not trying to be difficult... but the kielbasa was already processed when I got on here and I really don't have anywhere to put it except for the smokehouse.



Wine isn't a safeguard against botulinum, again, what you're doing is unsafe.








Source: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/meat-safety/botulism

~Martin


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you very much. I really do appreciate your effort and input. Live and learn I suppose.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 10, 2012)

The main lack of Oxygen is " within " the sausage meat and casing. I am sure your Grandpa did do this early November but where? It may have been a lot colder than it currently is in Virginia. We are seriously not trying to give you a hard time or start an argument. But it is SMF policy to follow the guidelines set by the USDA and FDA for Safe meat handling and Sausage production and smoking. You are certainly free to do as you wish...I have provided a warning for our members and guests that your technique is unsafe and that covers our obligation to our members safety...JJ


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh no, I don't think that y'all are trying to give me a hard time at all. I'm really happy that y'all are giving me the best information possible. My grandpa is from Croatia and moved to southern Pennsylvania. So when all is said and done, is there any way to know if something went wrong with the kielbasa? Like I said, I might not have started this had I known everything I know now. But the fact of the matter is... it's already started.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

There's no way to know if botulinum toxin is present.


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 10, 2012)

Unfortunately the Toxin from Clostridium Botulinum is Colorless, Tasteless and has no Odor. So you won't know if there is contamination until it is eaten and someone becomes sick. If ingested in small amounts and with quick medical attention young healthy adults can recover in many cases. It is the Young and Old that can experience permanent Paralysis and/or Death...JJ


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

So had I used a cure none of this would have been a concern? Is there anything else I should consider before smoking when I know that the temp is going to be in the 60's?


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

Czarkovich said:


> So had I used a cure none of this would have been a concern?



That is correct.
When cold smoking I like to keep the temperature at 75 degrees or less.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 10, 2012)

FWIW, this is the method used for old fashioned cold smoked Polish sausage, you may want to apply the same method to your recipe, with added cure, of course. You can smoke it as much as you want.

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/polish-cold-smoked


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 10, 2012)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> That is correct.
> When cold smoking I like to keep the temperature at 75 degrees or less.
> ~Martin


X2...Martin really knows his stuff about Cures and can be trusted to give accurate and Safe info...JJ


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## czarkovich (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it!


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