# Smoked salmon



## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

Five pounds of sockeye into a brine of water, kosher salt, brown sugar and maple syrup. Tomorrow it gets several hours under a fan followed by six hours of Alder smoke.












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__ myownidaho
__ Jan 28, 2017


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 28, 2017)

Sockeye + alder = probably what they serve in heaven.

Can't tell from the pic...Steaks?
Watching and cheering.


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## ab canuck (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds good, I always use the maple syrup as well mmm...  I'll be watching.....


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

atomicsmoke said:


> Sockeye + alder = probably what they serve in heaven.
> 
> Can't tell from the pic...Steaks?
> Watching and cheering.



Three filets cut into five pieces each. From now on, I'll let the fish monger filet the fish for me. I butchered the heck out of this poor guy. Fortunately, I bought the third filet. You can guess which one will pose for pictures.[emoji]128132[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji]


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm in!

Alder is hard to beat on salmon


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## cmayna (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds good to me.  I do a lot of Salmon and Alder then chased with Apple is my favorite.


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

I have been using Italian spice pellets from Todd on salmon.    Works great.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Jan 28, 2017)

Alder is always good, the traditional PNW choice. Like Craig I like some apple in there too.


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

c farmer said:


> I have been using Italian spice pellets from Todd on salmon.    Works great.


What is that giving you flavor wise?


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> What is that giving you flavor wise?



It's a real lite smoke.  Different from a wood smoke.  If that makes sense.


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

c farmer said:


> It's a real lite smoke.  Different from a wood smoke.  If that makes sense.



Yes it does. A lighter smoke with more complex spice notes. Sounds interesting!


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> Yes it does. A lighter smoke with more complex spice notes. Sounds interesting!



You got it.  Said it better than I did. 
Works great for cured meats too


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## SmokinAl (Jan 29, 2017)

Looking forward to seeing this one!

Al


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## myownidaho (Jan 29, 2017)

Three hours in my custom built drying facility.













IMG_2429.JPG



__ myownidaho
__ Jan 29, 2017






And into a cold smoker. I really want to prevent the albumin leakage I can't seem to beat, so I'm hoping this will help.













IMG_2431.JPG



__ myownidaho
__ Jan 29, 2017


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 29, 2017)

Looking good!   Higher temps will cause the protein to seep out.  Lower temps will help prevent it.  

Looking forward to the finish.


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## pc farmer (Jan 29, 2017)

You only cold smoking?

They look beautiful.


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## myownidaho (Jan 29, 2017)

c farmer said:


> You only cold smoking?
> 
> They look beautiful.



No, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't preheat the smoker this time. The Bradley only goes down to 120, which is too warm to start at. By starting cold and paying attention to the temperature and turning off heating element as needed, I'm able to keep it around 100 for the first hour or so, then I'll move it up to 120 and finish at 140 for the last hour or two.


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## pc farmer (Jan 29, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> No, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't preheat the smoker this time. The Bradley only goes down to 120, which is too warm to start at. By starting cold and paying attention to the temperature and turning off heating element as needed, I'm able to keep it around 100 for the first hour or so, then I'll move it up to 120 and finish at 140 for the last hour or two.


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## cmayna (Jan 30, 2017)

Looks great.  What wood did you decide to use?   The Italian Spice pellets that Adam mentioned sure sounds interesting.  Might need to add some to my next Todd order.


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## myownidaho (Jan 30, 2017)

cmayna said:


> Looks great.  What wood did you decide to use?   The Italian Spice pellets that Adam mentioned sure sounds interesting.  Might need to add some to my next Todd order.



I used Alder. The spice pellets do sound interesting.


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## myownidaho (Jan 30, 2017)

Okay, the taste is great but once again, I'm disappointed with the appearance. I put a lot of effort into controllling the temperature but I still had significant albumin leakage. I'm wondering if it's a sockeye thing. This is the best looking rack.













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__ myownidaho
__ Jan 30, 2017






It may also be time to use this smoker for target practice and upgrade.


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## ab canuck (Jan 30, 2017)

I have never had that experience with a bradly on fish. I did with jerky once, during winter and windy, couldn't get it up to temp and was taking a much longer time than usual, then i didn't pay attention as well as I should have and way over cooked it. Been good or lucky so far.


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 30, 2017)

ETA:  *I didn't know all of this below...  I've been on a LONG conference call and did a little research...*

At temperatures of 104°F / 40°C and 122°F / 50°C: Proteins in Fish and Meat Begin to Denature (break down into liquid forms that can then seep and migrate out of the meat structure itself.)

A perfect example of this is the albumin that you are seeing on the surface of your salmon.

Some studies have been done that show that the alteration of the pH of the flesh, or soaking the flesh in a 5-10% brine solution can assist in avoiding the denaturing of the protiens.

You said that you brined the filets in a mixture of water, kosher salt, brown sugar, and maple syrup.  This mixture should have a pH of ~6-7.5 depending upon your location and it's water quality.  The pH adjustment was shown to have been best in the >8 range, but at that point, the caustic nature of the liquid would begin to structurally change your fish (slightly, but it will change over time).

So, the key would be to keep the IT of the fish at <104° f, or to use a brine solution that is >/= 5%.  Using the chart below, what was your approximate solution?













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__ crankybuzzard
__ Jan 30, 2017






To create 8-cups of brine at 2% salinity, use 38 grams of salt.  To create 3-cups of brine at a 2% salinity, add the amount of salt called for in the columns under 1-cup (5 grams) and 2-cups (10 grams) which equals 15-grams of salt. If creating a 1% brine, simply divide the 2% salt grams by 50%.  To make a 1% brine for 2-cups of water, use half of the 5-grams, ROUND DOWN to 2 grams.

For the brine that a lot of us use, Pop's, the brine solution would be in the range of ~7%  (1-Tbs kosher salt = 16.2 grams with 16 tablespoons in a cup, = 259.2 grams of salt in a gallon of water)


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## BGKYSmoker (Jan 30, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> ETA:  *I didn't know all of this below...  I've been on a LONG conference call and did a little research...*
> 
> At temperatures of 104°F / 40°C and 122°F / 50°C: Proteins in Fish and Meat Begin to Denature (break down into liquid forms that can then seep and migrate out of the meat structure itself.)
> 
> ...
















Thats way to much for my brain to try to think about. 

Hmmm

Maybe an adult beverage would help













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__ BGKYSmoker
__ Jan 30, 2017


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## myownidaho (Jan 30, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> ETA:  *I didn't know all of this below...  I've been on a LONG conference call and did a little research...*
> 
> At temperatures of 104°F / 40°C and 122°F / 50°C: Proteins in Fish and Meat Begin to Denature (break down into liquid forms that can then seep and migrate out of the meat structure itself.)
> 
> ...


Good stuff! One quart of water and 1/3 cup of Morton's kosher salt when converted to grams gives me a brine right around 9%. The water here is very alkaline.

If I had to guess, I would say my problem is the result of the temperature range on the Bradley when the heating element cycles on and off. It can easily be as much as a 20 degree swing, so if it's set at 120, it can range between 110 and 130.


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 30, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> Good stuff! One quart of water and 1/3 cup of Morton's kosher salt when converted to grams gives me a brine right around 9%. The water here is very alkaline.
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say my problem is the result of the temperature range on the Bradley when the heating element cycles on and off. It can easily be as much as a 20 degree swing, so if it's set at 120, it can range between 110 and 130.


Were you targeting a specific internal temperature or were you going off of how the fish felt/flaked?

Before you take the Browning to the Bradley, I'd highly suggest an Auber PID controller for it.  It can really keep the temp swings down and operate at a lower temp for you when needed.


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## myownidaho (Jan 30, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> Were you targeting a specific internal temperature or were you going off of how the fish felt/flaked?
> 
> Before you take the Browning to the Bradley, I'd highly suggest an Auber PID controller for it.  It can really keep the temp swings down and operate at a lower temp for you when needed.


I'm going for appearance and feel rather than temperature. To follow the recipe I've been using requires two hours at 100, two at 120 and finishing with two hours at 140. The final product has always been exactly what I was shooting for, I just can't beat the albumin issue.

I was thinking about adding the Auber PID just to deal with this problem. Now that I have the Maverick probe in the smoker, it's obvious the temperature gauge fluctuates wildly from what the actual temperatures are. Some times it's spot on and others, like yesterday, it was showing 28 degrees cooler than the actual temperature. It's impossible to do a decent run under those circumstances.

My mind has also been working on justifying an upgrade to a Smokin-It 3D...


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## bellaru (Jan 31, 2017)

Looks aside I'm sure it tasted great. 

CrankyBuzzard
Great chart and info on brine in relation to Ph
I'll bookmark that for future use


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## dls1 (Jan 31, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> I'm going for appearance and feel rather than temperature. To follow the recipe I've been using requires two hours at 100, two at 120 and finishing with two hours at 140. The final product has always been exactly what I was shooting for, I just can't beat the albumin issue.


You have a paradox here. If the final product is exactly what you want, using the process that you do to achieve that result will always produce albumin. It's the high heat factor involved.

Simply put, and as CrankyBuzzard referred to, as the IT increases the muscle fibers contract and basically squeeze the protein out and when they clear the surface of the fish they coagulate and turn whitish.Though it will vary by the thickness of the piece, the intensity of the cooking heat, the length of cooking time involved, etc., as a rule of thumb, I use 115F-120F as a as a break point for the albumin to initially appear. When that happens, it's essentially nature's way of telling you that the fish is entering the realm of being overcooked, and drying out. Buying a new smoker or PID will never change that.

One way to minimize the appearance of the albumin is to use a simple quick brine. I use a 10% salt water brine, and for a piece 1" thick, I brine it for 10 minutes. Obviously, for thinner, or thicker, pieces, the time involved adjusts a little downward or upward.

Good luck.


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## myownidaho (Jan 31, 2017)

Thanks for the input! I need to ponder.


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## maineac (Jan 31, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> Okay, the taste is great but once again, I'm disappointed with the appearance. I put a lot of effort into controllling the temperature but I still had significant albumin leakage. I'm wondering if it's a sockeye thing. This is the best looking rack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always had trouble with sockeye.  I think it's a lot fattier than other salmons.  I ramp the temp like you and have tried many temp variances with good and not so good pellicles and it always had boogers.  So I stopped trying.  I am now getting pretty good results with farmed atlantic so I've been sticking with that.  Can't keep up with my wife's consumption.  Did 4 pounds the other day -













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__ maineac
__ Jan 31, 2017


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## myownidaho (Jan 31, 2017)

Maineac said:


> I've always had trouble with sockeye.  I think it's a lot fattier than other salmons.  I ramp the temp like you and have tried many temp variances with good and not so good pellicles and it always had boogers.  So I stopped trying.  I am now getting pretty good results with farmed atlantic so I've been sticking with that.  Can't keep up with my wife's consumption.  Did 4 pounds the other day -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great looking salmon! Sockeye is actually very lean compared to Atlantic and King Salmon. I think the higher protein to fat ratio may be part of the problem. More fat means a slower rise in temperature, which means the fibers will take longer to contract and exude albumin. The frustrating part is this is what I'm shooting for and it was actually smoked at a higher temperature in a Bradley Digital:







The difference is the above salmon was brushed with syrup every hour. That's a little too sweet for me but could also mean the difference between "clean" and "snotty" salmon.


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## maineac (Jan 31, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> Great looking salmon! Sockeye is actually very lean compared to Atlantic and King Salmon. I think the higher protein to fat ratio may be part of the problem. More fat means a slower rise in temperature, which means the fibers will take longer to contract and exude albumin. The frustrating part is this is what I'm shooting for and it was actually smoked at a higher temperature in a Bradley Digital:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't tell you anything other than my results.  Sockeye salmon, no matter what I did, fatted out.  My current efforts with atlantic salmon does not end in the same results.  A google search shows the atlantic with higher fat content than sockeye so it's a conundrum to me. 

I use a Bradley (modified with 1000w in elements) with a PID.  Been smoking salmon/fish for maybe 6-7 years.  But I have an idea (always a dangerous thing).  I haven't done this yet but plan to try it.  I am now using (2) 12" Amazen tubes of pellets to smoke the salmon and they last about 4 hours.  My smokes last about 5 hours to get to my temp of 135-140 IT.  I want to try finishing the salmon with sous vide.  It has the advantage of hitting the target temp no matter the thickness the fish.  I don't normally do tail pieces unless it's a presentation type of thing because they are so thin.  But in sous vide all thicknesses can hit the same temp.  Maybe if sockeye (with a good pellicle) were smoked for "x" time and then finished via sous vide it would fix the fat out issue.  The other thing is that they would already be in vac-sealed bags ready for the freezer if I sous vide them.  I will be doing this, but not for a couple of months.


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## myownidaho (Jan 31, 2017)

Ah, okay. I see where you're coming from. That isn't fat, it's albumin which is a protein. That's why I was wondering if the lower fat content was the culprit.


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## maineac (Feb 1, 2017)

Well, I guess it's a love/hate thing.  I hate it when I discover something I believed for years is wrong.  But I like it when I learn new things.  So I wondered where I went wrong and went back to my notes.  My salmon smoking process evolved mostly influenced by these 3 links -

http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=107.0

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/127170/hot-smoking-salmon-throwing-down-the-gauntlet

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/122931/mr-ts-smoked-salmon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view

One calls the white discharge "fat" and the other two refer to it as "oil" or "oils".  But I discovered other links I've saved did spell it out as albumin so that's that.  The information that *CrankyBuzzard *posted was interesting and cause for this thread to become part of my salmon links.

I do have sockeyes available to me on a regular basis but as you pointed out they always lack in the appearance area.  When I start experimenting with a sous vide finish (for which I have high expectations) I will try sockeyes again.  I wonder if any other members have a sockeye solution.


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## daveomak (Feb 1, 2017)

[h2]Is albumin water soluble?[/h2]

All the proteins of the albumin family are water-*soluble*, moderately soluble in concentrated salt solutions, and experience heat denaturation. Albumins are commonly found in blood plasma and differ from other blood proteins in that they are not glycosylated.

I use a dry brine mixture of cure #1, salt, white sugar and spices to brine/cure my sockeye in.....

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/174537/sockeye-hors-drawers-for-christmas-eve

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/240017/more-sockeye-12-30-money

I'm thinking the water brine solution "may" be contributing to the albumin  leakage...


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## maineac (Feb 1, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> [h2]Is albumin water soluble?[/h2]
> 
> All the proteins of the albumin family are water-*soluble*, moderately soluble in concentrated salt solutions, and experience heat denaturation. Albumins are commonly found in blood plasma and differ from other blood proteins in that they are not glycosylated.
> 
> ...


You have just added to my experimentation.  Need to try some dry brined and wet brined head to head.  Also need to try the 10 minute and 8 hr wet brine head to head.  I'm seeing lots of sockeye in my future but there are worse things to experiment on.  However, I have never had sockeye come out looking anyway near as nice as that.

*Dave*, in the first picture in the first link the right side has discharge while the left side doesn't.  Were you experimenting there?  Thanks.  Good thread.


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## myownidaho (Feb 1, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> [h2]Is albumin water soluble?[/h2]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And this is why I love SMF!


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## daveomak (Feb 1, 2017)

Maineac said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > [h2]Is albumin water soluble?[/h2]
> ...


If we are looking at the same picture, that is the membrane from the belly cavity showing up white.... 







  

The white in this picture is from the fish getting to too high a temperature...  overcooked in my opinion...    I hate it when I mess up....


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## maineac (Feb 1, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> If we are looking at the same picture, that is the membrane from the belly cavity showing up white....


Gotcha.  I always buy it and it never has that membrane.


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

Five pounds of sockeye into a brine of water, kosher salt, brown sugar and maple syrup. Tomorrow it gets several hours under a fan followed by six hours of Alder smoke.












IMG_2421.JPG



__ myownidaho
__ Jan 28, 2017


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 28, 2017)

Sockeye + alder = probably what they serve in heaven.

Can't tell from the pic...Steaks?
Watching and cheering.


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## ab canuck (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds good, I always use the maple syrup as well mmm...  I'll be watching.....


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

atomicsmoke said:


> Sockeye + alder = probably what they serve in heaven.
> 
> Can't tell from the pic...Steaks?
> Watching and cheering.



Three filets cut into five pieces each. From now on, I'll let the fish monger filet the fish for me. I butchered the heck out of this poor guy. Fortunately, I bought the third filet. You can guess which one will pose for pictures.[emoji]128132[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji]


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm in!

Alder is hard to beat on salmon


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## cmayna (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds good to me.  I do a lot of Salmon and Alder then chased with Apple is my favorite.


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

I have been using Italian spice pellets from Todd on salmon.    Works great.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Jan 28, 2017)

Alder is always good, the traditional PNW choice. Like Craig I like some apple in there too.


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

c farmer said:


> I have been using Italian spice pellets from Todd on salmon.    Works great.


What is that giving you flavor wise?


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> What is that giving you flavor wise?



It's a real lite smoke.  Different from a wood smoke.  If that makes sense.


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## myownidaho (Jan 28, 2017)

c farmer said:


> It's a real lite smoke.  Different from a wood smoke.  If that makes sense.



Yes it does. A lighter smoke with more complex spice notes. Sounds interesting!


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> Yes it does. A lighter smoke with more complex spice notes. Sounds interesting!



You got it.  Said it better than I did. 
Works great for cured meats too


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## SmokinAl (Jan 29, 2017)

Looking forward to seeing this one!

Al


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## myownidaho (Jan 29, 2017)

Three hours in my custom built drying facility.













IMG_2429.JPG



__ myownidaho
__ Jan 29, 2017






And into a cold smoker. I really want to prevent the albumin leakage I can't seem to beat, so I'm hoping this will help.













IMG_2431.JPG



__ myownidaho
__ Jan 29, 2017


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## crankybuzzard (Jan 29, 2017)

Looking good!   Higher temps will cause the protein to seep out.  Lower temps will help prevent it.  

Looking forward to the finish.


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## pc farmer (Jan 29, 2017)

You only cold smoking?

They look beautiful.


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## myownidaho (Jan 29, 2017)

c farmer said:


> You only cold smoking?
> 
> They look beautiful.



No, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't preheat the smoker this time. The Bradley only goes down to 120, which is too warm to start at. By starting cold and paying attention to the temperature and turning off heating element as needed, I'm able to keep it around 100 for the first hour or so, then I'll move it up to 120 and finish at 140 for the last hour or two.


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## pc farmer (Jan 29, 2017)

MyOwnIdaho said:


> No, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't preheat the smoker this time. The Bradley only goes down to 120, which is too warm to start at. By starting cold and paying attention to the temperature and turning off heating element as needed, I'm able to keep it around 100 for the first hour or so, then I'll move it up to 120 and finish at 140 for the last hour or two.


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## cmayna (Jan 30, 2017)

Looks great.  What wood did you decide to use?   The Italian Spice pellets that Adam mentioned sure sounds interesting.  Might need to add some to my next Todd order.


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## myownidaho (Jan 30, 2017)

cmayna said:


> Looks great.  What wood did you decide to use?   The Italian Spice pellets that Adam mentioned sure sounds interesting.  Might need to add some to my next Todd order.



I used Alder. The spice pellets do sound interesting.


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