# Total noob to curing



## gandrfab (Dec 16, 2020)

Started this on 12-10-20 about 7:pm 
Goal is pink cured pork with no added seasoning.
Bought a 5lb pork loin.

Cut 2 lbs off and gently scrubbed in fresh water.
Boiled 2.5 quarts of water with 6.6 grams of Prague #1 let cool.
Placed 2 lb of pork with cooled water in zip lock bag in fridge.
Now we wait.
At the loins thickest section it is 3" thick.

I'm getting mixed calculations but leaning towards a 6 day cure.
Does that sound right? 

As of last night.
The liquid has a tint to it but can tell the meat is pink on the outside.
The fat I left on it has turned white.


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 16, 2020)

You might as well start over, because the heat will ruin the cure #1. It won’t cure properly. You need to add the cure to cold water & keep it cold. Also since it’s 3” thick it should be injected with the brine, and probably cured for 10-12 days. You also should have salt & sugar in the brine. Just use the search & search Pop’s brine.
Al


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 16, 2020)

That's a bummer. I did add the Prague #1 to the water while it was hot.
 The cure is not mineral? 

Still inside the use by date on the original packaging.  Still good to cook?


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 16, 2020)

You can cook it, but it will just be a pork loin, it won’t be cured. I would either start over if you just did it yesterday, or take it out of the water & cook it now. I would not leave it in the fridge for 6 days.
Al


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 16, 2020)

This is what I used to come up with what I have so far.


In the 1st calculator posted it doesn't seem clear if it's for calculation from the center to the edge of the thickest portion of the cut or from outside to outside of the thickest portion.
But the 2nd calculator seems to confirm it's for the outside to outside.

Prof. Blonder's Wet Curing Calculator Version 3.0
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/curing-meats-safely

Not using this recipe but rechecking the calculations with it.
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/pork-recipes/smoked-canadian-bacon-recipe

and another calculator
https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html


----------



## daveomak (Dec 16, 2020)

Al has got you covered...  He knows his stuff....
Meathead and "Dr." Blonder, not so much....


----------



## Murray (Dec 16, 2020)

I’ve always wondered why there is no warning on the label of curing salt #1 re it’s inability to withstand heat.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 16, 2020)

If anything has been consistent in this adventure it has been inconsistency.
Please, forgive me for my frustration.  
The who's right and who's wrong, which path to follow has become similar to a shouting match on a play ground in my head.


----------



## smokerjim (Dec 16, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> This is what I used to come up with what I have so far.
> 
> 
> In the 1st calculator posted it doesn't seem clear if it's for calculation from the center to the edge of the thickest portion of the cut or from outside to outside of the thickest portion.
> ...


If you want a wet brine check out pops brine here on.  Smf , it's simple and works good.


----------



## BGKYSmoker (Dec 16, 2020)

Ditto with Al.


----------



## zwiller (Dec 16, 2020)

Guys have you covered but will try and give some answers.  Cure #1 is NOT a mineral it is a "salt" composed of 6.25% sodium nitrite and the rest is sodium chloride/salt.  I do not think there is either definitive proof that boiling makes cure ineffective NOR that it is acceptable to boil it, so one should err on the side of caution and play it safe. Safety is always the #1 concern.  

I never heard of curing meat until I joined here but now do it all the time and am making stuff I only dreamed of.  If you want to learn, hang out here, and you will.  I am proof of it.


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 16, 2020)

Murray said:


> I’ve always wondered why there is no warning on the label of curing salt #1 re it’s inability to withstand heat.


Cure #1 could be called a professional product, and there are a number of procedures that should be followed when using it. It is assumed that a professional has some degree of training in it's use.  
Morton Salt's 'Tender Quick' on the other hand was designed more for home use, mainly because  the curing salts are pre-measured, and because of the method used to suspend the nitrite and nitrate within the salt and sugar.  These things alone take some of the error out of the equation.*   From the Morton Handbook:  "...use water that has been previously boiled and allowed to cool, and mix Tender Quick with the water until it is dissolved"*


gandrfab said:


> If anything has been consistent in this adventure it has been inconsistency.
> Please, forgive me for my frustration.
> The who's right and who's wrong, which path to follow has become similar to a shouting match on a play ground in my head.


It's only beginning too.  There are so many online resources that don't follow guidelines and procedures accurately.  So it's best to learn from reliable sources, and verify everything.  One of my pet peeves is watching someone in an online video cross contaminate things.  Counter tops, cutting boards, bottles of rub, utensils,  the handle on the refrigerator etc.


----------



## BGKYSmoker (Dec 16, 2020)

Some basic cure info.

*Salt Cures*
Old recipes called for and old timers used salt petre or salt peter. This potassium based product is no longer available for general use and has been replaced by sodium based products - sodium nitrite (Cure 1) or sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate (Cure 2).  

These cures are also known as: 


Curing saltTinted curing powder (TCP)Prague powder  1 or 2 Modern cure Tinted curing mixture (TCM) FLP Insta-cure  1 or 2 Pink curing salt
 

*Cure # 1* is a basic cure that is used to cure all meats that require cooking, smoking, and canning. This would include poultry, fish, hams, bacon, luncheon meats, corned beef, pates, and many other products. Use when smoking or processing products at low temperatures. It is dyed pink so that it won't be mistaken for ordinary salt. It consists of 93.75% table salt and 6.25% sodium nitrate.
*Cure # 2* is cure specifically formulated to be used for making dry cured products, such as pepperoni, hard salami, geonoa salami, proscuitti hams and dried farmers sausage. These are products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. Cure #2 is sodium nitrate with a salt carrier. This cure acts as a time release, breaking down into sodium nitrite, then nitric oxide thus allowing for the much longer curing times required for these products, which can be up to 6 months. Dry curing meat or sausage properly cannot be done with Cure #1 which contains sodium nitrite only and dissipates too quickly. 
*Tip* - Use 1 oz. per 25 lb. of ground meat. For smaller batches use 1 LEVEL TEASPOON per 5 lb. of meat. When adding cure # 1 as an ingredient for brines follow a recipe.


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 16, 2020)

zwiller said:


> Guys have you covered but will try and give some answers.  Cure #1 is NOT a mineral it is a "salt" composed of 6.25% sodium nitrite and the rest is sodium chloride/salt.  I do not think there is either definitive proof that boiling makes cure ineffective NOR that it is acceptable to boil it, so one should err on the side of caution and play it safe. Safety is always the #1 concern.
> 
> I never heard of curing meat until I joined here but now do it all the time and am making stuff I only dreamed of.  If you want to learn, hang out here, and you will.  I am proof of it.


The reasoning I heard  (and bear in mind this was 30+ years ago) was that simmering a curing brine with Cure #1 made the nitrates much more active and in essence caused them to burn out in a very short period of time.  The opposite holds true if your curing refrigerator is too cold.... the curing process slows down below 34°


----------



## PolishDeli (Dec 16, 2020)

Cure#1 is  mixture of Sodium Chloride (NaCl)  and Sodium Nitrite (NaNO2).
Both of these chemicals are satls.
Both of these chemicals are minerals.
Neither of these chemicals are damaged by boiling them in water.

I measured the stability of NaNO2 in boiling H2O and posted my lab report here:

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/thermal-stability-of-cure-1-–-kitchen-science-lab.291586/

But don't take my word for it. Look at thier respective thermochemical properties.
NaNO2 enthalpy of formation  = -360kJ/mol

NaCl enthalpy of formation =
-411kJ/mol

Water enthalpy of vaporization = 40kJ/mol.

Conclusion:  Water cannot boil at a temperature hot enough to transfer enough energy to break Na-N-O (or Na-Cl) bonds.  Water turns to steam long before the NaNO2 and NaCl are damaged.


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 16, 2020)

PolishDeli said:


> Conclusion: Water cannot boil at a temperature hot enough to transfer enough energy to break Na-N-O (or Na-Cl) bonds. Water turns to steam long before the NaNO2 and NaCl are damaged.



Boy... I for one am glad you had the "Conclusion" at the bottom of the post.   

I snooped around in my library and only came up with vague references to heat and nitrites.  It's entirely possible we are guilty of following instructions (in my case from decades ago) out of habit. 
*Marianski:* "Sodium Nitrite  works immediately and at refrigerator temperatures of 30° to 40°F.  At higher temperatures it will work even faster".
*Kutas:* In talking about making sweet pickle formulations, all formulas have ice water listed, and instructions call for "all ingredients are dissolved in cold water" 

Your experiments and examples in the other article are talking about breaking bonds.  I'm curious if the performance of sodium nitrite can be affected by simmering or boiling, without actually breaking the chemical bonds?


----------



## daveomak (Dec 17, 2020)

I find it amusing, "Shoot the messenger" is the defense, in place of "Let me investigate" to find some technical data to support  one or both, of the theories...
Curing meat to prevent the growth of botulism bacteria or spores, is the goal...  Botulism is the deadliest bacteria known to man...  Why not take the side, "I'm not sure which is correct but I'm going to err on the side of caution"....









						Brining: Does hot water neutralize sodium nitrite's efficacy?
					

For maximum botulism-killing effect, can curing salt be added to boiling water when making a brine, or should the brine be cooled before adding the sodium nitrite? Bonus points for citing sources.




					www.badgerandblade.com
				




I think it is a very good idea to NOT BOIL your pink salt or prague powder. The chemistry of meat cures is not terribly complex and it goes like this. Nitrate ions can be reduced to nitrite ion by fermentation bugs over time. The nitrite can be further reduced to nitric oxides which DO THE CURING by reacting with meat proteins like myoglobins to create the pick color. Using just a small amount of very reactive nitrite allows the cure to be much safer as the extra abundance of nitrate is not needed when using an insta cure made with nitrite. BUT nitrite can be oxidized back to nitrate so you want there to be enough to get the job done without exhausting them to zero before the cure completes. A reason to boil your salt, sugar brine is definitely to kill off as much bacteria and fungi as possible. Yes the spores can survive this boiling but only spores can survive boiling for any length of time including the tough to kill C, botulism spores. That is why canned foods with low acidity have added acids (green chilis etc) to keep the C. botulism from growing in the low acid media. Same for meat cures. Unless it ferments to make it a sour dry ferment, the added nitrites kills off the C. botulism bacteria that somehow survived as spores.

So Nitrates are very stable in solution and do not degrade from boiling although nitrates can be leached from meats and veg by boiling in water so the levels go down iin the meat or veg f you don't eat or drink the boiling liquids. Nitrites are less stable in solution and capable of being oxidized OR reduced. Reduction to nitric oxide in solution is the desired step to effect a meat cure but nitric oxide is REALLY UNSTABLE in liquids or as a gas. It is a super reactive short lived species (it will react with many molecules including proteins and fats) and also volatile so until it reacts with the meat it can also just outgas into the air or volatilize away as it is also a gas and a big component of smog etc.

Boiling the water kills good and bad bugs but not the spores from bugs quickly AND it helps dissolve the salts and sugar. Boil salts and sugar and then let it cool and THEN ADD your prague powder or instacure. The less nitrite you are using, the more important that the small amount used is really there and active. Commercial cures often require the use of sodium erythorbate which is a preservative on it's own and safe but ALSO acts a reducing agent to help reduce the small amount of nitrite to the super active nitric oxide curing species. So if you are using a ton of instacure or a mix of nitrite AND extra nitrate for a long cure, it doesn't much matter if you boil it first as you have a huge and unhealthy excess of nitrate to act as a reservoir but that isn't considered healthy or safe and may exceed FDA approved levels for nitrate. GO low nitrite without extra nitrate and be much more careful and still get a good safe cure is the way to go.

"Nothing to see here".....  "That story has been debunked"....  seems to be the rallying cry today.. 
Unfortunately, I.Q. is something I think you are born with, and is difficult to change without having a curious nature....


----------



## daveomak (Dec 17, 2020)

https://www.alliedkenco.com/pdf/Use%20Additives.pdf
		


Prague Powder #1....    Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1-part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

As I learn this will get better, right?
This 2lb experiment isn't garbage yet?
Still inside the use by date that was on the packaging.

.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

Thank you all.


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 17, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> As I learn this will get better, right?
> This 2lb experiment isn't garbage yet?
> Still inside the use by date that was on the packaging.
> 
> .



My friend, have you read what the old time members on here have said. The use by date doesn’t mean anything if you boil the cure.
Read what Dave said & I PM’d chef Jimmy J who is another safety expert to give you an answer. But when curing meat you are taking a big risk of getting sick if you do it wrong, and I have been always told don’t heat the cure before using it.
Al


----------



## PolishDeli (Dec 17, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> I'm curious if the performance of sodium nitrite can be affected by simmering or boiling, without actually breaking the chemical bonds?



If you boil the cure/pickle (and then let it cool) before injecting/immersing the meat – The fact that the cure had been boiled will not affect the meat in any way.

The temperature of the pickle - during the curing process - will have a big influence on the speed of the curing process.  This is, in part, because the rate of mass diffusion is temperature dependent. The type of bacteria and the speed of bacterial growth will also be affected.

If you put raw, uncured meat into a simmering pickle, you will be curing the meat but also cooking the meat.  The cooking (i.e.  the denaturation of meat protein) will happen much much faster than the curing (i.e., the Nitrosylation of Myoglobin)

Regarding Marinaski – I’m not saying anything that contradicts him.

Regarding Kutas – I do t have that reference, so i cant comment on specifics, but: "all ingredients” seems to imply “for consistency.”   There are other ingredients which will behave differently in hot vs cold water (e.g. aromatics, gelatin, starches).  

I talk specifically about breaking bonds since that is what would have to occur for the NaNO2 to somehow stop working - It would have to cease being NaNO2.

Conclusion :
Cure#1 in a bucket of H2O is a simple, stable system.
Cure #1 in a muscle is really complicated since it involves mass transport, chemical reactions, and biological systems.


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 17, 2020)

Sometimes the obvious is a good resource....  I've used enough Cure #1 in my life to  fully preserve a  mastodon and other than verifying the 6.25% sodium nitrite, apparently, I've never read the label.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

All I have so far is heating #1 may be bad. 
Some are pretty sure about it others not so sure about it.
I won't pre heat the cure again either way. 

Before coming here weight of #1 was far more important than volume of #1.  Need a gram scale or don't bother, spoons won't be accurate enough. 
Now I'm here looking around and spoon measuring #1 per lb of meat looks acceptable, accuracy once assumed needed is out the window,  with little concern for amount of water seems just fine. Nothing cures pollution like dilution, making the amount of water seem rather important in the whole ratios thing.


Science and accuracy brings me right back to THIS.
"If anything has been consistent in this adventure it has been inconsistency.
Please, forgive me for my frustration.
The who's right and who's wrong, which path to follow has become similar to a shouting match on a play ground in my head."


Thanks again for your patience.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 17, 2020)

gandrfab
  Let me add some UNDISPUTED Perspective...What TEMPERATURE are  you planning to smoke this meat at?

This Boil, Never Boil the Cure#1 argument has gone on Here, on other sites and in multiple studies, with results showing each side is correct. I don't have the time our desire to search my archives to add to this.
So...I will take a different route and address the SAFETY ASPECT!


So, we address the Growth Temperature range...C.Bot grows between  37.4°F (3C) and 118 4°F (48C). Beyond these temps there is insignificant of No Growth!





__





						Clostridium botulinum
					

Clostridium botulinum




					food.unl.edu
				




So BOTTOM LINE. What TEMPERATURE will the meat be Smoked At?
I suspect the OP is not smoking 48 hours straight at 70-80°F and you all understand or should understand, the Pasteurization Temps for Pork.

Temperature Time Temperature Time
°F (°C) (Minutes) °F (°C) (Seconds)

130 (54.4) 112 min... 146 (63.3) 169 sec
131 (55.0) 89 min.... 147 (63.9) 134 sec
132 (55.6) 71 min.... 148 (64.4) 107 sec
133 (56.1) 56 min.... 149 (65.0) 85 sec
134 (56.7) 45 min.... 150 (65.6) 67 sec
135 (57.2) 36 min.... 151 (66.1) 54 sec
136 (57.8) 28 min.... 152 (66.7) 43 sec
137 (58.4) 23 min.... 153 (67.2) 34 sec
138 (58.9) 18 min.... 154 (67.8) 27 sec
139 (59.5) 15 min.... 155 (68.3) 22 sec
140 (60.0) 12 min.... 156 (68.9) 17 sec
141 (60.6) 9 min...... 157 (69.4) 14 sec
142 (61.1) 8 min...... 158 (70.0) 0 sec
143 (61.7) 6 min.......
144 (62.2) 5 min.......
145 (62.8) 4 min.......

Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).

IF this Pork will be Smoked above 130°F as it Typical for Cured Loin, and smoked to an IT of 150°F...The entire argument over Do/Don't Boil Cure is moot from a SAFETY Standpoint!...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

Round one we planned on  a flavorless Irish bacon cook in the oven @ 325°F until it is 155°F internal.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 17, 2020)

That will be great and perfectly Safe, with or without Cure #1! Worst case, the Nitrite, dropped below 40ppm in the brine/meat and you may not get that Pink Meat color of Cured Meats, edge to edge. Post pics of the sliced Irish Bacon...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

Guess I left out this has been setting like pictured in the bottom back of a lightly used refrigerator 34 ° -36 ° f  with a pair of . . *links not showing* for me .  *Digital Freezer Room Thermometer, Max/Min Record Function. *


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 17, 2020)

chef jimmyj said:


> gandrfab
> Let me add some UNDISPUTED Perspective...What TEMPERATURE are  you planning to smoke this meat at?
> 
> This Boil, Never Boil the Cure#1 argument has gone on Here, on other sites and in multiple studies, with results showing each side is correct. I don't have the time our desire to search my archives to add to this.
> ...


 OK JJ I understand the safety aspect, but I was always told to never boil the brine with cure #1 in it. IS THIS WRONG? I was always told that it would neutralize the cure. Is this true or not? Please clarify.
Al


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 17, 2020)

Al, I honestly am not sure. There is research on both sides. I have studied College Level Chemistry and at a point, the studies are beyond my understanding.
I too was told Don't Boil Cure #1/2, as a Newbie, and never have. Besides, the amount of Cure compared to the amount of Water in a Brine, will have ZERO problem Dissolving so why Boil it? Sorry I can't be more definitive with my answer...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 17, 2020)

My cure 1 went in the water post boil, but I didn't check the temp and couldn't tell if it went in at 200 or 180. It was still hot, far over 130f but not boiled.
Not that it makes a difference at this point. 
Just another tid bit of information.


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 17, 2020)

Well after much discussion, it seems that cure #1 is NOT affected by heat, so I was wrong to tell you that it was. I was taught to always mix the cure in cool water, but it appears that I was wrong. I’m sorry if I caused you any inconvenience, so you are good to go. However I would leave it in the cure for at least 10-12 days.
Al


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 17, 2020)

SmokinAl said:


> Well after much discussion, it seems that cure #1 is NOT affected by heat, so I was wrong to tell you that it was. I was taught to always mix the cure in cool water, but it appears that I was wrong. I’m sorry if I caused you any inconvenience, so you are good to go. However I would leave it in the cure for at least 10-12 days.
> Al





chef jimmyj said:


> Al, I honestly am not sure. There is research on both sides. I have studied College Level Chemistry and at a point, the studies are beyond my understanding.
> I too was told Don't Boil Cure #1/2, as a Newbie, and never have. Besides, the amount of Cure compared to the amount of Water in a Brine, will have ZERO problem Dissolving so why Boil it? Sorry I can't be more definitive with my answer...JJ



I was taught to keep everything cold too.  The meat and the curing brine, but hams were usually the items that were cured this way in my family.  They were injected (and I have no idea if my grandfather really did a 7% or a 10% pump)  and then went into a crock with a cover brine.  On a similar note, I was also taught to use canning salt instead of Kosher because it seems to dissolve better in room temperature water..... but I've never done a side-by-side comparison.  BTW, I use canning salt in several dry cures, but use Kosher salt for fish.  

I guess what I'm wondering is.... how did the recommendation to not add curing salts before heating actually start?  I would think it would be after a number of failure to fully cure something.


----------



## pc farmer (Dec 17, 2020)

I agree with 

 chef jimmyj
    I dont boil, well any brine except for some spices for pastrami.  I add the cure later.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> I guess what I'm wondering is.... how did the recommendation to not add curing salts before heating actually start? I would think it would be after a number of failure to fully cure something.



It would appear that heating Cure #1 in water has little effect but the Nitrite in CURED MEAT, dissipated quickly when heated. I would think, at some point, someone extrapolated the the second condition to the first thinking, " Nitrite dissipates when Heating the meat, so it must dissipate ANYTIME you heat it! "...JJ


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2020)

I Trust 
P
 PolishDeli
 and the Heating Cure Brine Tests he ran. I have seen similar results in other studies. However, there are contradictory reports.

My Official Answer...While there is no good reason to Boil Cure with Brine ingredients, and it is Not Recommended...Several Studies show there is no significant effect on the Cure's potency if you do add it to Boiling Brine...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

Good morning. The appearance in the bag didn't change from the OP pic. This was right out of the bag and cut open. Not odd odor.


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> Good morning. The appearance in the bag didn't change from the OP pic. This was right out of the bag and cut open. Not odd odor.
> View attachment 475729


It doesn’t look like it is cured either, it should be much more of a red color.


----------



## zwiller (Dec 18, 2020)

This leads up to the next item of debate: is cure ALONE sufficient to cure?  I vote no.  Al beat me...


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 18, 2020)

zwiller said:


> This leads up to the next item of debate: is cure ALONE sufficient to cure?  I vote no.  Al beat me...



I’m no expert on curing, but I was always told to use salt & sugar with the cure. Those are the only 3 ingredients necessary for curing. I guess the old timers just used salt as a cure, but I don’t think you get that hammy flavor without cure. So to answer your question I vote no too.
Al


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

To touch on my back ground the 1st time I slow cooked a pork butt for pulling I did it with no seasoning for my own baseline. It came out with what I'll call a still on the hoof flavor.  This experiment had about the same flavor.
 Seasoning has been added to my slow cooked pork butt  and is now requested.

Plain smaller piece on left, lightly black peppered the bigger one. Went in the oven @350.  Out of the oven picture below.







Small one not pictured below made it to165f and was too tough, the dog loved it.
Peppered one pictured below cut open made it to 160f I ate some of it and nothing to write home about but not  deterred.  






I'm not ready to rush into eating up the fridge space with another soak but would like to try and improve a baseline loin. 

Research and learning continues.


----------



## daveomak (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> My cure 1 went in the water post boil, but I didn't check the temp and couldn't tell if it went in at 200 or 180. It was still hot, far over 130f but not boiled.
> Not that it makes a difference at this point.
> Just another tid bit of information.



I think it is a very good idea to NOT BOIL your pink salt or prague powder. The chemistry of meat cures is not terribly complex and it goes like this. Nitrate ions can be reduced to nitrite ion by fermentation bugs over time. The nitrite can be further reduced to nitric oxides which DO THE CURING by reacting with meat proteins like myoglobins to create the pick color.  Using just a small amount of very reactive nitrite allows the cure to be much safer as the extra abundance of nitrate is not needed when using an insta cure made with nitrite. BUT nitrite can be oxidized back to nitrate so you want there to be enough to get the job done without exhausting them to zero before the cure completes. A reason to boil your salt, sugar brine is definitely to kill off as much bacteria and fungi as possible. Yes the spores can survive this boiling but only spores can survive boiling for any length of time including the tough to kill C, botulism spores. That is why canned foods with low acidity have added acids (green chilis etc) to keep the C. botulism from growing in the low acid media. Same for meat cures. Unless it ferments to make it a sour dry ferment, the added nitrites kills off the C. botulism bacteria that somehow survived as spores.

Nitrites are less stable in solution and capable of being oxidized OR reduced. Reduction to nitric oxide in solution is the desired step to effect a meat cure but nitric oxide is REALLY UNSTABLE in liquids or as a gas. It is a super reactive short lived species (it will react with many molecules including proteins and fats) and also volatile so until it reacts with the meat it can also just outgas into the air or volatilize away as it is also a gas and a big component of smog etc.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> All I have so far is heating #1 may be bad.
> Some are pretty sure about it others not so sure about it.
> I won't *pre heat* the cure again either way.
> 
> ...


or boil cure again either way.


----------



## SmokinEdge (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> Started this on 12-10-20 about 7:pm
> Goal is pink cured pork with no added seasoning.
> Bought a 5lb pork loin.
> 
> ...


I would add to this that I don’t believe that whole muscle meats can be effectively cured without at minimum 1.5% salt to total weight. The 2% salt range is most commonly used. 3% would be a maximum limit but imparts a very salty finished product. The reason for the salt either in dry rub or in solution (brine) is that concentrations of salt in that 1.5% to 3.0% help to kill bacteria and stop its growth, as well as extracting moisture from the meat. This water/moisture extraction causes a vacuum inside the whole muscle that allows for greater uptake of the brine and or dry rub containing the cure. This helps get the cure into the center of the meat. As I understand stand it, the cure will follow the salt as it penetrates the meat.  Cured meat as a rule is salty. However when making cured meats at home you can control the salt percentage to match your preference within the percentage range I posted. For me personally I use 1.5% salt then once the cure is added it takes my over all salt to about 1.75%. This works just fine and I prefer the lower salt taste. Sugar can also be added but is not necessary to cure. It’s added to offset the saltiness and to add a sweetness to the final finished product. I use 1.0% sugar but your taste may be different. Again I do not believe that whole muscle meat can be successfully cured without a concentration of added salt. Cure#1 alone is not enough. Hopefully others will chime in.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

Learning. 
I haven't had any family  doing anything like this. Thanks


----------



## zwiller (Dec 18, 2020)

There were 3 things done on this run that are not typical: boil cure, use cure only, and not inject meat over 2" thick. It is interesting all 3 things are debatable and lack a clear understanding.  I remember being there and wondering about it myself.  I researched heavily and did not find much and what I did find were conflicting theories.  For some reason, I just jumped in with Pops brine.  Success!  Maybe a little salty and sweet for my tastes but success.  From here I adapted to Omak/Marianski weight based curing and injecting, and my results were much better to my tastes BUT now I knew the variables and could play around a bit.    

I am also no expert but have cured a few years now and consider myself well read on it.  My take:
1.  Heat does not really affect cure for the most part.  I add cure last to my brine while still warm and no issues.  If I had to hazard a guess why it is typically not recommend to boil cure I would say it might have to do with the variations in water composition.  Water composition makes radical difference brewing beer...      
2.  I think you need at least 1% salt to cure but do not know for sure.  1% works, I've done it, but this is lowest I did.  You are welcome to take one for the team and try .5%.  I know for a fact you do not need sugar as I have stopped using it for some time now and have no issues.
3.  You do not need to inject but it will offer much faster, consistent, and uniform results.


----------



## thirdeye (Dec 18, 2020)

zwiller said:


> This leads up to the next item of debate: is cure ALONE sufficient to cure?  I vote no.  Al beat me...





SmokinAl said:


> I’m no expert on curing, but I was always told to use salt & sugar with the cure. Those are the only 3 ingredients necessary for curing. I guess the old timers just used salt as a cure, but I don’t think you get that hammy flavor without cure. So to answer your question I vote no too.
> Al


Well, both Cure #1 and Tender Quick are mostly salt so the real question is how would sodium nitrite perform on its own. But how would you accurately measure and apply?
Along the lines of both of your questions, shortly after Blonder wrote this article I tried it on a small brisket flat.  He calls for only Cure #1 and salt and the overall amount used is so small you have to take great care to apply.  For my experiment I only needed 3/4 teaspoon TOTAL, so gently bouncing it on the brisket was a pain.  Bottom like for me was a GONG.  It did have the proper color, but the saltiness was light (and I favor lighter salt amounts).  





__





						dry brined quick pastrami recipe
					





					genuineideas.com


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 18, 2020)

Well this thread sure has gotten a lot of interest. But my take on it is I will continue to use the diggingdogfarm calculator, http://diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html to cure any meat I cure that uses cure#1, and will NOT heat the cure#1 before smoking the meat. I guess I’m old school, but that is the way I have been doing it since I started curing meat & will continue to do so. It’s hard to change when you get old & have a routine that works.
Al


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

SmokinAl said:


> Well this thread sure has gotten a lot of interest. But my take on it is I will continue to use the diggingdogfarm calculator, http://diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html to cure any meat I cure that uses cure#1, and will NOT heat the cure#1 before smoking the meat. I guess I’m old school, but that is the way I have been doing it since I started curing meat & will continue to do so. It’s hard to change when you get old & have a routine that works.
> Al


Using that calculator for the piece of meat I had. 

Can I seal these ingredients in a bag, 2 or 4 cups of water, for how long? 
Things I just don't know yet.


----------



## SmokinAl (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> Using that calculator for the piece of meat I had.
> 
> Can I seal these ingredients in a bag, 2 or 4 cups of water, for how long?
> Things I just don't know yet.
> ...


This is for a dry cure.
For a brine cure I use Pop’s brine. It’s very basic & you can add any spices to the brine you want, but if the piece of meat is more than 2” thick then you need to inject the brine into the meat before you soak it in the brine.
Here is Pops brine recipe:





						Pops6927's Wet Curing Brine
					

real simple curing brine:   for every 1 gallon of water, add:  1/3 - 1 cup sea salt (depending if you're on a lo-salt diet)  1 cup granulated sugar or Splenda174  1 cup brown sugar or Splenda174 brown sugar mix  1 tbsp cure no. 1 pink salt  stir thoroughly until clear amber color, pour over...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com
				



Al


----------



## SmokinEdge (Dec 18, 2020)

If you use the calculator, it gives you the ingredients as a dry rub. When applied to the meat and bagged, it will produce a light brine in the bag as moisture is drawn from the meat. If you want to add water. As you mentioned 2 or 4 cups, you can but need to include the weight of the water in with the meat. This is equilibrium cure calculator so include the weight of meat and water, if used.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2020)

To answer... How Long in the Bag?

The common Standard for Brines...7 Days per Inch of thickness. Plus a day or 2, uncovered in the refer, to form a Pellicle.

For Dry Rub Curing, with/without adding 4 to 8 Ounces of Water to the bag... 1 day in the bag for each 1/2 Inch of thickness, massage and turn daily. Plus 2 days, uncovered in the refer, after Rinsing to come to equilibrium and form a Pellicle.

A 4" thick Pork Loin in a Bag with the proper amount of Dry Rub of Cure #1 and Salt per the Calculator, for the Weight of the meat and 4 ounces of Water, will require 8 days in the Bag. Then, rinse well and Rest in the refrigerator, Uncovered, for 2 more days to equilibrate and form a Pellicle...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

yaa, I don't think I'm equipped or want to get into any open to the air curing.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2020)

None of my examples are Open to Air, except the last 2 days and that is for Smoking the Meat, Only.
 If you are just going to roast or poach it. You still need to Rinse and Rest 2 days BUT it can be Wrapped and stored in your refer, as a Pellicle is not needed...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 18, 2020)

chef jimmyj said:


> None of my examples are Open to Air, except the last 2 days and that is for Smoking the Meat, Only.
> If you are just going to roast or poach it. You still need to Rinse and Rest 2 days BUT it can be Wrapped and stored in your refer, as a Pellicle is not needed...JJ


I'm in Florida it's not cold enough to smoke for 2 days. I will not be playing with meat in the temperature danger zone.

I'm going to need to go from refrigerator to cooking.  
Having a hard enough time convincing my wife to go beyond the use by date without freezing or cooking,  she's not going to have a piece of meat airing out resting in the fridge for 2 days. 
When you say wrapped can that be re ziplock bagged or vacuum sealed? 

If a gallon or more of water is needed to do what I want "pops  real simple curing brine" 
This will become a rarity  rather than a new hobby. 
 Learning
Thanks again.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> When you say wrapped can that be re ziplock bagged or vacuum sealed?
> 
> If a gallon or more of water is needed to do what I want "pops real simple curing brine"
> This will become a rarity rather than a new hobby.



Yes, you can Bag or Seal.  The meat just needs a couple days to Equilize.

If Space is an Issue, Use the Dry Rub and a Small amount, 4-8oz,of Water, in a Zipper Bag! It takes Less Time than Pops Brine, takes Less Space and gives a great product.

A little FYI...Thousands of people Smoke Cured Meat in Florida, Year Round! The two Largest Member Gatherings take place Spring and Fall in Florida, there are That Many Floridian SMF Members.
Smoking CURED MEAT, for  8 hours a day, for 1, 2, 3,  even 7 days, refrigerate the meat in between, is PERFECTLY SAFE and has been done in the Hot Southern States for Hundreds of years.

I'm a retired Pro Chef  and Certified Food SAFETY Instructor. There is No Way, I would give you false or Unsafe information...Do what you feel comfortable with...JJ


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 19, 2020)

Thanks

Stay safe, but how do I come up with these safe numbers?
Use this calculator for the ingredients.


			DiggingDogFarm
		

add a few oz. of water 
bag it let it set for some days (assume manipulate the bag occasionally, twice a day) 
rinse rebag to equalize for about 2 more days
rinse again? 
Then cook to safe temperature. safe temp chart is clear and easy to understand. Lets not mess with that for now. 

I'm pretty sure all the correct information has already been posted but it's not clicking in my mind. 


I have no issues with smoking. When I do take that step, I'm not jumping right into smoking/cooking at under 220f more like 240 or more incase I miss a temperature drop.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 19, 2020)

There is no such thing as a Perfect Formula in curing and smoking.  I can't say take... 10g of Cure and 40g of Salt for X days then this and that and some more of whatever...
Every Piece of  Meat is Different! So, Every weight of Ingredient and time in the Refer and Rest Time and Smoke Time and Smoke Temperature, and Ambient Temperature in Florida on August 10th...Will Be Different!

We can teach a CONCEPT called Curing and Smoking Loin Bacon/Irish Bacon/Canadian Bacon/Back Bacon, (different names for basically the same meat). We can give you basic Guidelines for How much Cure, Salt and Sugar, Time in the Cure, Time Resting, Time Smoking, Temp of the Smoker and Meat...But there are no How To's, Step by Steps, Tutorials, Recipes or Formulas that WILL APPLY EVERY TIME. There are just too many Variables that you have to adjust to each time you Cure or Smoke a piece of meat.

Learn the Concept, then the Details will make more sense and fall in place ...JJ

Here are a couple Hundred ways Loin Bacon went from Raw Pork to Plate. ALL different numbers, but ALL the Same Concept...Cured and Smoked Pork!





__





						Search results for query: Canadian bacon
					





					www.smokingmeatforums.com


----------



## gmc2003 (Dec 19, 2020)

I have a question. If your boiling the water with the cure in the water. Wouldn't that change the ratio of the cure to water? 

Chris


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 19, 2020)

gmc2003 said:


> I have a question. If your boiling the water with the cure in the water. Wouldn't that change the ratio of the cure to water?
> 
> Chris


I'm pretty sure that it has been hammered into my head that it's a bad idea to boil the cure and we will not be doing that again. Even though it wasn't boiled last time we have learned not to.  :)


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 19, 2020)

It doesn't appear to Chris, but Boiling Cure #1 is not needed and not recommended, as some, other Brine ingredients may effect the final amount of Cure in the Brine...JJ


----------



## gmc2003 (Dec 19, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> I'm pretty sure that it has been hammered into my head that it's a bad idea to boil the cure and we will not be doing that again. Even though it wasn't boiled last time we have learned not to.  :)



gandrfab that was directed towards you. Just a question in general.



chef jimmyj said:


> It doesn't appear to Chris, but Boiling Cure #1 is not needed and not recommended, as some, other Brine ingredients may effect the final amount of Cure in the Brine...JJ



Thanks JJ, I don't cure that often and when I do I use a dry brine. I was just thinking to myself and wondering if you start off with a gallon of water and a tsp of cure #1.  By the time you bring the water up to a boil and let it boil your going to loose a certain amount of water. The water loss would make the brine stronger then originally intended. Probably not enough to affect the ratio, but if your measurements were exact it possible could.

Chris


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 19, 2020)

Chris, there will be minimal loss of water as our only goal is to dissolve Salt, Sugar, etc, and Infuse the Brine with any Herbs, Spices or other flavoring ingredients.
Kind of the same process as making TEA. Boil the water and Steep the Ingredients to Infuse flavor.
We add such a Small amount of Cure, 1-2 Tbs to a gallon of water, that Hot, Cold, in between,  that Cure will completely dissolve so why risk any possible loss, adding to Boiling or even HOT Brine!...JJ


----------



## PolishDeli (Dec 19, 2020)

gandrfab said:


> ...but how do I come up with these safe numbers?



For the most part amazingribs.com is a good source. However, the following really bothers me:

They state “Injection curing should be left for the pros.”
That is wrong. If you are curing meat at home whose thickness is more than an inch or so, you need to inject it. Otherwise, the cure may take too long to fully penetrate the muscle and you risk bone sour/spoilage.
Their calculator uses the wrong equation for large cuts of meat (as per the USDA’s recommendations). Specifically, they use the equilibrium equation. They should be using the pickup/injection equation.
A much better reference is meatsandsausages.com. (But buy the book too).

I struggled with information overload at first too. To help myself learn, I built an excel calculator which I’ve been modifying/annotating over the years. It its fully referenced; lists recommended values; and gives warnings if you are doing something dangerous.

It’s attached. If a clunky and technical excel file works for you, feel free to use it.
Additional info:

-The equations are a clearly presented.
-Automatically converts the recipe into several different units of measure.
-Can be used for injection, equilibrium, or dry curing (tailored for sausage making specifically).
-Calculates temperature-dependent salinity of water.


----------



## gandrfab (Dec 19, 2020)

Another thing I don't know how to use " excel"
It opened a protected empty  excel  window that did nothing but make a bleep noise when I clicked on it.
Used task manager to close it. 

Thanks for all the information and I'm glad, relived, grateful to finally be in contact people that are willing to help out with the ins and outs of what I hope will become a rewarding hobby. 
I think round 2 will be another pork loin. 

I'm a welder.
Will weld, fabricate most things metal from minor steel repairs to fence, frames, aviation smokers and grills  ;) my main stay has been aluminum pipe work in the marine industry including projects like this camera boat and T-top. 
Start out with 23' lengths of pipe a sketch start cutting, bending and welding.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Dec 19, 2020)

Interesting job you have. Great pictures...JJ


----------

