# Cook and Hold Smokers



## Mrk LaFay (Dec 21, 2017)

Have any of you ever smoked in a cook and hold smoker? Alto Shaam, FWE and others have pretty cool products that cook, hold and smoke. What i'm finding is that the smoke isn't as good as in my stick burner and I think it has to do with air intake and exhaust. The smoldering wood chips arent getting enough air  and it isn't venting properly. It can leave the meat with an ashy flavor.  Have any of you any experience with this?  Thanks!


----------



## Braz (Dec 22, 2017)

I'm not familiar with either of those smokers, however here is a thread about adding a fan to help exhaust smoke. These were done on Masterbuilt electric units but you might be able to do something similar.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/th...cold-smoker-assist.270750/page-2#post-1780211


----------



## tbrtt1 (Dec 22, 2017)

My PID controller on my Pellet smoker will do 3 step cooking, Smoke, cook and then hold at a certain temp. 

I also have a cook shack clone electric with a PID that can do 6 steps. 

I say all that to say this: it may not be the cook and hold part that is making the smoke taste bad or different. My pellet pooper never produces bitter or off tasting/smelling smoke flavor. 

The electric is another story. What helped is Use less wood than you think you need and smaller chunks. My cook shack clone uses chunks or chips and I make sure my chunks are small. 

I made a lot of excellent Q with it. I have it modded to run directly from my Auber PiD and add an Amazon smoke to do sausage smoking now.


----------



## rjob (Dec 22, 2017)

Following what tbrtt1 suggested:
We use a CookShack Sm160. Which has a hold feature. It is a bit smaller than the cookers you mentioned. One mistake we made while learning the cooker was adding too much wood. This resulted in incomplete burning of wood and an ash flavor. With this cooker less wood is better. Maximum recommended is six oz. We normally use about 3 oz. This seems to provide a smoked flavor but not over bearing. Some prefer a heavier smoke. Hope this helps.


----------



## Mrk LaFay (Dec 22, 2017)

i smoke with a large stick burner outside right now. I'm attempting to bring inside and replicate the flavor which is going to be a task. I loaded the tray with wood, and did a test run on some beef and got an ashy flavor in the meat. I think it isn't venting well enough


----------



## rjob (Dec 22, 2017)

Did similar with the SM160.Went from outside to inside. Takes a bit of adjustment in methods. What does the OEM suggest for wood amount? CookShack uses wood chunks, we actually weigh the wood, record the weigh along with all information regarding the smoke. We found it was better to use less wood than trying to correct an over smoke. One thing to keep in mind with an electric smoker, the wood is for flavor not for cooking. Just like a spice.


----------



## Theo-brew-ma (Dec 23, 2017)

Cook and hold ovens are typically variations on warming/holding drawers expanded as combination ovens. Combination ovens are variations on older pressurized steam ovens; combi ovens combine a less pressurized steam oven function with the abilities to limit the steam (steam generator) and/or humidity (humidity reservoir with agitator) and use just the heating element with a dry reservoir basin. This allows you primarily to cook well at relatively low nominal temperatures (350F and below, down to 135F) while potentially achieving a higher effective temperature with the increased humidity. The 'cooking' portion of the cook and hold is therefore a little restrained to high humidity or lower temperature style preparations–– they really also excel, however, at 'holding' foods at or just above service temperatures, whether in high humidity or low humidity (fried chicken, for instance). 

Don't get me wrong, combi cook & holds are AWESOME, but you've got to know what you're getting–– which is definitely not air-flow. Rather, these guys are sometimes thought of as ideal for a sous vide-style preparation done in the oven (prime rib roasted at low temp for 8-12 hrs, then given a skin and put back in to hold for service), which is accomplished because of the high effective temperature with low nominal temperature which is accomplished by the high humidity environment; you can also poach foods immaculately well in them (lobster or scallops in butter).

My understanding is that the consensus among you smokemasters here is that low circulation is detrimental to the flavor qualities of smoke–– that a fresh, mild, continuous flow of smoke is much preferred to a stagnant contained smoke. I'm no expert, though. But it would seem to me that an alteration to the cook & hold to facilitate air-flow, by say drilling an opening for a fan, would tend to compromise its core abilities. This could probably be offset in some way, by putting the fan exterior and putting in a closure to retain more of a seal for the cook & hold aspect. But you would want to be aware of this as what I think is the essential tradeoff between an almost no (exterior) air-flow and medium-flow style of preparation.

Let me know if you guys figure something out! Alto- and Winston CVAP combi ovens are pretty expensive as-is, so I don't see a lot of future conversions happening, but would love to know if someone's got a great hack.


----------



## Mrk LaFay (Dec 29, 2017)

Well, I think that by creating a small opening for air intake, combined with a fan attached to the vent should solve the airflow issue.. I also think that fewer chips at a time will be helpful. I want it to work because this would make my life so much better.


----------



## dr k (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrk LaFay said:


> Have any of you ever smoked in a cook and hold smoker? Alto Shaam, FWE and others have pretty cool products that cook, hold and smoke. What i'm finding is that the smoke isn't as good as in my stick burner and I think it has to do with air intake and exhaust. The smoldering wood chips arent getting enough air  and it isn't venting properly. It can leave the meat with an ashy flavor.  Have any of you any experience with this?  Thanks!


I downloaded the WS1510ELPM Auber PID manual and read it so I have a clue before I need it on my Mes Gen 1 40".  It seems like right out of the box it will be fine without auto tuning.  Everyone that uses a PID should be able to set their last step of cook temp and time, out of six on this model, to 145*F or whatever up to 999 minutes, I believe is max time, to hold in the safe zone.


----------



## Theo-brew-ma (Jan 9, 2018)

Hey– I just realized I've got a couple extra smoker adapters for Rational combi ovens, called Rational VarioSmoker. Let me know if interested. Consists of a chip box, heating element, and basic controller. They're also available new for 'only' $420 (https://www.webstaurantstore.com/rational-60-73-010-variosmoker-portable-smoker/6456073010.html)-- pretty expensive, and not even sure that includes the control box! Ha, and just found they're 800Euro in the Netherlands, lmfao (https://www.rational-webshop.nl/nl/product/48038/rational-variosmoker). Could pretty easily diy for much less. That said, all SS, high quality construction, capable of resisting high humidity environments of combi ovens, and NSF approved.

I think you'd still be well off to make a couple basic vents and dampers-- or maybe figure out a way to swap out the regular door with a vented door rather than mess up the cabinet. Don't know what model cook & hold or combi you have, but while the replacement doors are very expensive, buying an extra set of hinges and building a very basic door shouldn't be too bad.


----------

