# BBB  to salty on test fry... how long to soak to get it out.. (used Mortons smokey sugar cure, so it



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

My Butts have been in the refer for 9 days... I used Morton's smokey sugar cure.  Meat has stiffened nicely, overhauled 3 times or so... was in stainless containers so it was cured "box style" after a manner, only the juice did not drain away from the butts so they was happy in their own juice for nine days.

Test fry found the meat was a bit too salty for me.  Question is this... how long can I soak the butt halves in order to remove some of the salt?

As I am a noob at this so forgive me... but is the meat supposed to taste like ham or like bacon... I used Morton's smokey sugar cure... will this make a difference over using a BBB cure?

Thanks!


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 24, 2014)

Don't know if you used the right amount of cure, and I never did a "Box cure" and let it lay the whole time. If you used the right amount of cure, you should be able to keep soaking until it's not too salty. I never had to do that, but I have read it can be done. They also say you can put potato slices in the water to help with the salt removal.

As for the taste----It actually tastes like BBB, which I would have to say is closer to Bacon than Ham.

Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

I read the directions and used 1/2 oz per pound and putting it in the containers is basically like using ziploc's but it forms the meat into rectangular slabs.

I didn't let it cure to long... at 7 days per inch of thickness, per the instructions...  most of the pieces was 2 in or so... i may have just got into a thinner part of the bacon.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## daveomak (Feb 24, 2014)

Deuce, afternoon......   Never looked up smokey sugar cure until today....     I think you may have chosen the wrong cure......   or the wrong method for your BBB.....     That has no nitrite in it....  It is to be used to long term curing.....    totally different process.....   

Personally, I wouldn't eat it.....  but that's me....    see what others think.....    Dave


   Description       

MORTON Smoke Flavored SUGAR CURE mix is formulated especially for dry curing large cuts of meat like hams. It contains salt, sugar, sodium nitrate, propylene glycol, caramel color, natural hickory smoke flavor, a blend of natural spices and dextrose (corn sugar). The cure reaction takes longer with MORTON Smoke Flavored SUGAR CURE mix than with plain MORTON SUGAR CURE mix, so the smoke flavored product should be used only for dry curing and not for making a brine (pickle) solution.

CAUTION: This curing salt is designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipe. It should not be used at higher levels as results will be inconsistent, cured meats will be too salty, and the finished products may be unsatisfactory. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavor is only for dry curing ham and bacon. This product should not be used with other meats or in a brine cure. Curing salts cannot be substituted for regular salt in other food recipes. Always keep meat refrigerated (36° to 40°F) while curing.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Like I said above I did follow the directions on the package... Morton smoke sugar cure is for dry cure only, of ham and bacon

It was used as a dry cure and kept at 38ish degrees for 9 days or so.  as per package instructions.

I just took it off of a 2 hour soak did a cut/fry test, smelled great, tasted like salt pork. though... original question was how tong to soak to get the salt out... apparently i over did the sugar cure and used to much.


----------



## daveomak (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> Like I said above I did follow the directions on the package... Morton smoke sugar cure is for dry cure only, of ham and bacon
> It was used as a dry cure and kept at 38ish degrees for 9 days or so.  as per package instructions.
> 
> I just took it off of a 2 hour soak did a cut/fry test, smelled great, tasted like salt pork. though... original question was how tong to soak to get the salt out... apparently i over did the sugar cure and used to much.






You might find some of this interesting.....    And FWIW, the USDA does not allow nitrate to be used in bacon.....  We are here to help you make safe grub.....    Dave

http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/lit_rev/cure_smoke_meats.html

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/dry

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/country

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/hams

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/hams-safety-USDA


Dry curing[edit]

Traditional dry cure hams may use only salt as the curative agent, such as with San Daniele or Parma hams, although this is comparatively rare.[9] This process involves cleaning the raw meat, covering it in salt (for about two months for Parma ham) whilst it is gradually pressed – draining all the blood. It is then washed and hung in a dark, temperature-regulated place until dry. It is then hung to air for another period of time.
 Sea salt being added to raw pork leg as part of a dry cure process
The duration of the curing process varies by the type of ham, with Serrano ham curing in 9–12 months, Parma hams taking more than 12 months, and Iberian ham taking up to 2 years to reach the desired flavour characteristics.[10] Dry cured hams, such as the Chinese Jinhua ham takes approximately 8 to 10 months to complete.[11]
Most modern dry cure hams also use nitrites (either sodium or potassium), which are added along with the salt, although following a similar methodology. The nitrites deliver a distinctive pink or red tinge to the meat, as well as imparting flavour. The amount and mixture of salt and nitrites used has an effect on the shrinkage of the meat.[12]

Sodium nitrite is used because it prevents bacterial growth and, in a reaction with the meat's myoglobin, gives the product a desirable dark red color. Because of the toxicity of nitrite (the lethal dose of nitrite for humans is about 22 mg per kg body weight), some areas specify a maximum allowable content of nitrite in the final product. Under certain conditions, especially during cooking, nitrites in meat can react with degradation products of amino acids, forming nitrosamines, which are known carcinogens.[13]

The dry curing of ham involves a number of biochemical reactions caused by enzymes. The enzymes involved are proteinases (cathepsins – B, D, H & L, and calpains) and exopeptidases (peptidase and aminopeptidase).[14]

The enzymes cause an intense proteolysis in the muscle tissue, which creates large numbers of small peptides and free amino acids, whilst the muscle and adipose tissue lipids undergo lipolysis and create free fatty acids.[14]

The salt in the curing process acts as a strong inhibitor of proteolytic activity, and phosphates also have an effect on reducing this activity.[15]

The properties of the raw meat influence the effect of the enzymes; with factors including age and weight of the pig as well as breeding affecting the process.[16] During the process itself, conditions such as temperature, time, water activity, redox potential and salt content all have an effect.[14]

The salt content in dry-cured ham varies through the piece of meat, with gradients determinable through dissection and testing, or non-invasively through CT scanning.[17


----------



## diggingdogfarm (Feb 24, 2014)

You should have used Tender Quick or regular Sugar Cure.
The cure you used isn't intended for your application.
It's for true long-term dry curing of country hams and the like....not relatively short-term curing.
It contains nitrate only....no nitrite.





~Martin


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Quote from http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/dry

"Since dry curing draws out moisture, it reduces ham weight by at least 18% - usually 20 to 25%; this results in a more concentrated ham flavor. Dry hams are saltier than other products and before serving are often soaked in water for 6-12 hours in refrigerator. The 5-6% or more salt they contain is added for safety reasons, to eliminate the growth of spoilage and pathogenic bacteria. This salt plays a crucial safety factor in the initial stage of the process, when the product contains a lot of moisture. As curing and drying continues, the ham loses more moisture and less water remains available to bacteria. Dry-cured hams may be aged more than a year. Six months is the traditional process but may be shortened according to aging temperature."

I have determined that i made a mistake in my method of preparing the butts... not in true BBB style, but more in the traditional style of making bacon, instead of using belly i used butts.  Followed the package instructions for the thickness of the meat... So I am not afraid of the meat as it has TOO much salt... that was the original question... how to get the salt out?

I am reading that you can soak 6 to 12 hours but may need to let the butts age a bit more.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks martin, that is what i am figuring out.  Fact still remains, I followed the instructions on the package so I came out with ham instead of bacon... LOL

Still to salty.


----------



## diggingdogfarm (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> ... how to get the salt out?



Soak it in water!!!
No one can tell you how long you should soak it...only you know what you like as far as salt level goes.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

That's the plan!  Swimming in the pot right now.


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf,

Like we said, Soak it as long as you have to to get the way you like it.

The only Mortons I ever used was TQ, and the only thing I know about the two sugar cures is that the regular sugar cure is interchangeable with TQ, and the Smokey sugar cure is not interchangeable with TQ or regular sugar cure.

So if you followed the directions, I would keep soaking until you're happy with the flavor. Then Smoke it.

Bear


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> That's the plan!  Swimming in the pot right now.


I just looked it up in my Mortons book, and it says what you did was right, so like we said, just keep soaking until you're happy.

Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks Bear,  as you said the TQ and sugar cure are interchangeable but NOT the smoked cure which i am using (the smoky sugar as stated before is for ham and bacon... bellies and butts, NOT making bacon out of butts) , so the BBB project turns into a ham project.  which needs more cure added and more time.

Thanks to ALL for your patience while I figured this conundrum out.


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> Thanks Bear,  as you said the TQ and sugar cure are interchangeable but NOT the smoked cure which i am using (the smoky sugar as stated before is for ham and bacon... bellies and butts, NOT making bacon out of butts) , so the BBB project turns into a ham project.  which needs more cure added and more time.
> 
> Thanks to ALL for your patience while I figured this conundrum out.


No, that's not how I read it. I read it as using the *same amount on Bacon or Ham (which would include a Butt)*, but it should only be dry cured, like you did.

No brine curing for Smoked Sugar Cure.

I'll go back & read it again.

Bear

On Edit: Read it again----Same Thing as I said.


----------



## diggingdogfarm (Feb 24, 2014)

deucenahalf.
Carefully re-read my first post above and then read this thread.... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124452/confusing-dry-curing-with-dry-curing
Please don't confuse simply applying a dry cure mix with the long term process of "dry-curing"....there is a BIG difference.
Morton Smoke Flavor Sugar Cure is intended for the long term process of *dry curing!*
I hope it makes sense!
Good luck!


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks Martin and Bear for your patience.  Martin i read your thread and that confirmed that i did confuse the two.  Guess the best thing to do is continue the dry  cure method i started... still kicking around doing the TQ and brown sugar method, will have to think on that one a bit.


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 24, 2014)

Deucenahalf,

Mortons Book says:

The cure reaction takes longer with Morton Smoked Flavored Sugar Cure mix than with plain Morton Sugar Cure mix, so the Smoked Flavored product should be used only for dry curing and not for making a brine (pickle) solution. 

Then it goes on to say to use 1/2 ounce per pound, and cure for 7 days per inch for Bacon and/or Ham. A BBB (Butt) would generally be thicker than a belly, but not as thick as a Ham.

So if your piece was 2" thick, according to Mortons, you should have used 1/2 ounce per pound, and dry cure it for 14 days. This is to be followed up by 2 days of equalization.

So, again---Just keep soaking until you're happy with the flavor. You did everything right.

Bear

PS: It's too late to use the TQ & Brown Sugar method on this batch, but if you want to use that next time, check out my Bacon (Extra Smoky) Step by Step.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks bear... that is what i am doing.  Again thanks to all for your help and patience!


----------



## bigwheel (Feb 24, 2014)

Missed what kinda glorious creation we was shooting for here. Buckboard bacon maybe? Anyway nearly all those type cure strategies will get it too salty, Best remedy in my book would be to treat it like a country ham. That is slice it up as you want to eat it and cook it in a bunch of water in a skillet. After it has chuckled away for a while..dump the water and finish browning it up with a little butter. I aint never had any success trying to soak the salt out of big hunks of meat..but I bump into folks who claim it works. Not sure. Me or them one is apparently crazy..lol Or you could seeth it up in huge pot of water for a long time. That might work.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 24, 2014)

That sounds like a good plan... that is the way my granny used to cook it.. soak it or boil it for a short time and then fry it up.


----------



## daveomak (Feb 25, 2014)

deuce, morning.....   this explains the difference between nitrite and nitrate curing temps.....   Nitrate need bacteria to convert to nitrite...  bacteria needs a higher temp to grow...  therefore when using nitrate to cure meat, temps in the range of 46-50 degrees F are preferred...  and the length of time needs to be extended for bacteria to grow and the nitrite conversion to take place...   Dave


Curing Temperatures

The curing temperature should be between 36-40° F (2-5° C) which falls within the range of a common refrigerator. Lower than 36° F (2° C) temperature may slow down the curing process or even halt it. Commercial producers can cure at lower temperatures because they add chemicals for that purpose. There is a temperature that can not be crossed when curing and this is when meat freezes at about 28° F (-2° C). Higher than normal temperatures speed up the curing process but increase the possibility of spoilage. This is a balancing act where we walk a line between the cure and the bacteria that want to spoil meat. The temperature of 50° F (10° C) is the point that separates two forces: below that temperature we keep bacteria in check, above 50° F (10° C) bacteria forces win and start spoiling the meat. 

Meats were traditionally cured with Nitrate. Before Nitrate can release nitrite (the real curing agent) it has to react with bacteria that have to be present in the meat. Putting Nitrate into a refrigerator kept solution (below 40° F) will inhibit the development of bacteria and they may not be able to react with Nitrate. On the other hand sodium nitrite works well at refrigerator temperatures. When used with Nitrates/nitrites, salt is an incredibly effective preserving combination. There has not been even one documented incident of food poisoning of a meat cured with salt and Nitrates.

People in the Far East, Africa, South America and even Europe are still curing meats at higher than normal temperatures without getting sick. That does not mean that we recommend it, but if someone in Canada shoots a 1600 lbs (726 kg) Moose or a 1700 lbs (780 kg) Kodiak Bear he has to do something with all this meat. He is not going to spend 5,000 dollars on a walk-in cooler, is he? These are exceptional cases when curing can be performed at higher temperatures. After the Second World War, ended most people in Europe neither had refrigerators nor meat thermometers, but were curing meats with Nitrate and making hams and sausages all the same.

Because of primitive conditions the curing temperatures were often higher than those recommended today but any growth of C. botulinum bacteria was prevented by the use of salt and Nitrates.

They also predominantly used potassium Nitrate which works best at temperatures of 46-50° F (8-10° C) and those were the temperatures of basement cellars. There was not much concern about longer shelf life as the product was consumed as fast as it was made. Salt and nitrite will stop Cl. botulinum spores from developing into toxins, even at those higher curing temperatures. Due to increased bacteria growth at those higher curing temperatures the shelf life of a product would be decreased. Remember when handling meats, the lower the temperatures the slower the growth of bacteria and the longer life of the product. Extending the shelf life of the product is crucial for commercial meat plants as the product can stay on the shelf longer and has better chances of being sold. Curing is a more complicated process than salting. In addition to physical reactions like diffusion and water binding, we have additional complex chemical and biochemical reactions that influence the flavor and color of the meat.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks Dave

I had read that before and now understand the difference between the two methods.  I double checked the temp swing  of my refer and it was between 38 and 44.  I will continue the long cure


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 25, 2014)

That longer time curing might be right for Cure #2, but if you guys get a Morton Book, and look at the chart on page 12, you will see that for Dry curing, they say to use 1/2 ounce per pound of TQ, Sugar cure, or Smoke sugar cure. Also for all 3 they recommend 7 days per inch, with a 2 day period for equalization after the curing time has expired.

In other words for Dry curing, they all use the same amount of cure per pound, and the same amount of time for curing.

The only difference that they show in usage is that "Smoked Sugar Cure" is not to be used in a pickling brine.

I'm not making this up. It comes directly from my "Morton Home Meat Curing Guide".

I'm not posting this to start an argument, so if you don't believe me, just get a Morton's Home Meat Curing Guide.

Bear


----------



## diggingdogfarm (Feb 25, 2014)

@deucenahalf,
PM me if you have any questions.




~Martin


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks Martin


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 26, 2014)

This is what I was saying:

I hope people can read it.

This is the best I could do.

Couldn't get it any larger.

This is taken from page 12 of my Mortons' Book.

For Dry Curing Bacon, you can see on the right (2) It says "Sugar Cure (Plain or Smoke flavored) mix is generally used, but TQ may be used for Dry Surface Application."

Then in the left column, go down to BACON Dry Cure, and look to the right, where it says 1/2 (ounces needed per pound of meat).

Then look farther to the right---There it says "7 Days curing time per inch of thickness".

Then to the right again----"-2 days of Salt equalization."













Screen Shot 2014-02-26 at 9.02.15 AM.png



__ Bearcarver
__ Feb 26, 2014






This is for Mortons Products.

Any curing times longer than 7 days per inch of thickness would be when using Cure #2----Not any of the Mortons products.

Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 26, 2014)

Looks like I am ok then, another week or so and the smoke will roll.


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 26, 2014)




----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 27, 2014)

Tomorrow looks like a good day to smoke!  part of the thinner pieces any way...


----------



## bigwheel (Feb 28, 2014)

It's officially official all hobbies on Earth have been taken over by pedantic cyber nerd injuneer types spouting math equations. What is a Mother to do?


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 28, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> Tomorrow looks like a good day to smoke!  part of the thinner pieces any way...


I would recommend holding the thinner pieces in equalization, until the thicker pieces are also ready to smoke, but that's up to you.

Might not be so cold down there, but up here (below zero this morning again) I would not want to freeze my butt off 2 days, when I could do it all in one day. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 28, 2014)

LOL, math IS everywhere.


----------



## deucenahalf (Feb 28, 2014)

Well Bear I missed your post, and I smell smoke. Temp is in the 30's and heading lower and ice storm in the works for sunday.  But I was having withdrawal symptoms from hickory smoke... LOL  I will brave any temp when it gets to me that bad.


----------



## Bearcarver (Feb 28, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> Well Bear I missed your post, and I smell smoke. Temp is in the 30's and heading lower and ice storm in the works for sunday.  But I was having withdrawal symptoms from hickory smoke... LOL  I will brave any temp when it gets to me that bad.


Believe me, I can dig it-----We're supposed to get at least another foot of snow Sunday through Monday. That will take us over 8 feet total for the Season. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 2, 2014)

Ok, so I found out the answer to my salt question... It does NO GOOD, soaking the whole piece of meat before smoking. 

I did this and did little to change the overall saltiness, it was better but not enough.  I smoked the meat and after cooling I sliced off several slices, soaked them overnight... and it took ALL the salt out, matter of fact I had to salt it  bit with the shaker because so much had been soaked out.

My grandmother soaked hers for an hour or so... now I know what to do!


----------



## bigwheel (Mar 5, 2014)

Glad you got that figured out. We will know how to do it next time. Thanks.


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 5, 2014)

Yup, granny also dipped the bacon in flour too... tried that and it was really good.


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 6, 2014)

SAM_0135.JPG



__ deucenahalf
__ Mar 6, 2014






To bad there is no "smellovision"... smells great.

On the left we have bacon cured with Morton's smokey sugar cure... cured according to the Morton's book.

On the right we have bacon cured by following Bearcarver's step by step tutorial, with the skin (underneath the bacon) removed to make cracklin's later.

Bacon at left i soaked for 30 min to 1 hour to remove access salt.  Then can be fried as is or dredged in flour  and fried like the old timers used to.

BBB on the right, as bearcarver told me before, had no salt issues at all, great as it is.


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 7, 2014)

Just made the crackling's ...  they were gone before I could take the pic.  They were GOOD!

Cut the skin into small 1\4 inch chunks, placed them in an iron skillet, pizza pan on top into a 350 degree pre-heated oven for 30 min.  Fine vittles.


----------



## Bearcarver (Mar 7, 2014)

Got some good eatin' there now, Deuce!! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 11, 2014)

I have tried both of the bacons that I made and to my tast the TQ BBB is far better than the bacon made by useing the Morton's smoky sugar cure.   Far less salt in the Tender Quick method.


----------



## Bearcarver (Mar 11, 2014)

deucenahalf said:


> I have tried both of the bacons that I made and to my tast the TQ BBB is far better than the bacon made by useing the Morton's smoky sugar cure.   Far less salt in the Tender Quick method.


Thanks for the confirmation:

I never used either of the 2 sugar cures from Mortons.

I only use TQ, because I have heard the same thing from others.

You just confirmed what I have already heard.

Guess I'll stick to a winner---TQ.

Bear


----------



## deucenahalf (Mar 11, 2014)

Yup, TQ is my method of choice from now on... after I use the smoky cure up.  LOL


----------

