# Curing and cold smoking



## cook-eat-repeat (Jun 5, 2014)

I was going to attach my cold smoke generator to a working mini-fridge that I put some ventilation in. My question is if I am able to keep the temperature in the fridge in normal fridge range (34-36 degrees F) would I still have to cure meat for a long smoke?

My thinking is that I would not need to cure it. Control ham in control fridge for 1 week is perfectly edible. The difference between control ham and smoked ham would be the smoke. Smoked ham is exposed to much less oxygen during the same amount of time. However, that is only if control ham is in the fridge uncovered. If I can vacuum seal control ham and keep it in the fridge for a week and it's still edible shouldn't that mean smoked ham would be fine?


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## daveomak (Jun 5, 2014)

??  so,...... you are planning on re-smoking an already smoked ham....


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## Bearcarver (Jun 5, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> I was going to attach my cold smoke generator to a working mini-fridge that I put some ventilation in. My question is if I am able to keep the temperature in the fridge in normal fridge range (34-36 degrees F) would I still have to cure meat for a long smoke?
> 
> My thinking is that I would not need to cure it. Control ham in control fridge for 1 week is perfectly edible. The difference between control ham and smoked ham would be the smoke. Smoked ham is exposed to much less oxygen during the same amount of time. However, that is only if control ham is in the fridge uncovered. If I can vacuum seal control ham and keep it in the fridge for a week and it's still edible shouldn't that mean smoked ham would be fine?


Welcome C-E-R,

I never thought about that, because I never had a reason to, but I should tell you that if you Smoke Pork without curing it, it will never taste like Ham. Smoked Pork without cure will be "Smoked Pork".

Bear


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## cook-eat-repeat (Jun 5, 2014)

lol, no. Ham is just a cut of pork, although typically it's only found pre-cured/smoked.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 5, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> lol, no. Ham is just a cut of pork, although typically it's only found pre-cured/smoked.


If it's pre-cured, all you should do is smoke it. If it's pre-cured & smoked, then you can smoke it again (Double Smoked).

And like I said, if it's not pre-cured, and you don't cure it, smoking it will give you Smoked Pork.

I hope that helps.

Bear


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## brooksy (Jun 5, 2014)

Ham is not actually ham unless it's cured. One of the experts will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure. Yes the cut is called a ham but it doesn't get the "ham" taste until its cured.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 5, 2014)

Brooksy said:


> Ham is not actually ham unless it's cured. One of the experts will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure. Yes the cut is called a ham but it doesn't get the "ham" taste until its cured.


Exactly!!

Bear


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## brooksy (Jun 5, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> Exactly!!
> 
> Bear


  Thought I had it right Bear!


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 5, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> I was going to attach my cold smoke generator to a working mini-fridge that I put some ventilation in. My question is if I am able to keep the temperature in the fridge in normal fridge range (34-36 degrees F) would I still have to cure meat for a long smoke?
> 
> My thinking is that I would not need to cure it. Control ham in control fridge for 1 week is perfectly edible. The difference between control ham and smoked ham would be the smoke. Smoked ham is exposed to much less oxygen during the same amount of time. However, that is only if control ham is in the fridge uncovered. If I can vacuum seal control ham and keep it in the fridge for a week and it's still edible shouldn't that mean smoked ham would be fine?


Is this "control ham" fresh pork?


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## daveomak (Jun 5, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> I was going to attach my cold smoke generator to a working mini-fridge that I put some ventilation in. My question is if I am able to keep the temperature in the fridge in normal fridge range (34-36 degrees F) would I still have to cure meat for a long smoke?
> 
> My thinking is that I would not need to cure it. Control ham in control fridge for 1 week is perfectly edible. The difference between control ham and smoked ham would be the smoke. Smoked ham is exposed to much less oxygen during the same amount of time. However, that is only if control ham is in the fridge uncovered. If I can vacuum seal control ham and keep it in the fridge for a week and it's still edible shouldn't that mean smoked ham would be fine?





Seems as though, you know to use cure #1 when smoking meats in a low oxygen environment.....  So, why push the botulism probability by smoking below 40 deg. F.....   If you just want to experiment to see if you won't get ill, or possibly worse, don't look for anyone's permission on this site....  our members are a lot smarter than that.....

Dave..... "anal Dave" when it comes to food safety......

OH, to be safe, feed the stuff to your kids or grandkids first, to be sure it is safe to eat.....


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 6, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> So, why push the botulism probability by smoking below 40 deg. F.....



When this thread started I was wondering how long before the b-word is mentioned. Cry wolf?

Botulism risk at less than 40F...I would say just as likely as botulism in meat cured with nitrites. 

Should we stop vacuum packing our cooked meats? After all they will be sitting without oxygen at 40F for days.


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## wasp (Jun 6, 2014)

Hello from Western Australia
I have mini fridge with controled thermostat
We brine our "meat" with prague #1 and then into cold smoke
My generator is only good for about 8 hours (beer takes over) so we take it out after first smoke, into normal fridge overnight and go again
I have done this and given a good lump of pork belly a triple smoke
We still cook the belly before we eat it but mind you it will last for a long time hanging in the cold of the fridge (second cure/dry)
I do not want to get sick so be very carefull
Cheers
WASP


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## cook-eat-repeat (Jun 6, 2014)

Yes, both the control ham and the test ham are fresh pork.


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 6, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> Yes, both the control ham and the test ham are fresh pork.


And what you are trying to make? Cold smoked meat you would cook afterwards?


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## daveomak (Jun 6, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> When this thread started I was wondering how long before the b-word is mentioned. Cry wolf?
> 
> Botulism risk at less than 40F...I would say just as likely as botulism in meat cured with nitrites.
> 
> Should we stop vacuum packing our cooked meats? After all they will be sitting without oxygen at 40F for days.






Amazing.....  You are willing to warn others about the dangers of botulism "possibilities" from carrot juice....




quote from "atomicsmoke"

 Carrot juice is verboten too. It has been associated with botulism.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 6, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> I was going to attach my cold smoke generator to a working mini-fridge that I put some ventilation in. My question is if I am able to keep the temperature in the fridge in normal fridge range (34-36 degrees F) would I still have to cure meat for a long smoke?
> 
> *My thinking is that I would not need to cure it.* Control ham in control fridge for 1 week is perfectly edible. The difference between control ham and smoked ham would be the smoke. Smoked ham is exposed to much less oxygen during the same amount of time. However, that is only if control ham is in the fridge uncovered. *If I can vacuum seal control ham and keep it in the fridge for a week and it's still edible shouldn't that mean smoked ham would be fine? *





cook-eat-repeat said:


> *Yes, both the control ham and the test ham are fresh pork.*


OK----Now that we know that your "Hams" are "Fresh Pork", maybe I can answer your question better:

According to the USDA, raw Pork is good for 3 to 5 days in the fridge, so if you can get your Pork to smoke in the Fridge at under 40* F for 3 to 5 days, it would be just as safe as your "Control" "Ham" that was in the fridge for 3 to 5 days would be.

However, what would you have?

You would have a piece of Smoked Raw Pork that still needs to be cooked to at least 145* IT before eating, and it will not taste anything like Ham.

So, if you don't want to cure it, you might as well smoke it while you take it to about 200* IT. Then you could pull it & call it Pulled Pork. However, since it wasn't cured properly, be sure to get it from 40* to 140* in no less than 4 hours.

Hope this answers your questions.

Bear


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## wasp (Jun 6, 2014)

Flavour before tombstone
The taste of the smoke, even when cooked cant buy in supermarket
I wont buy mass injected pink stuff from the shop chains


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## atomicsmoke (Jun 6, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Amazing.....  You are willing to warn others about the dangers of botulism "possibilities" from carrot juice....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Big...huge...sarcasm sign Dave.


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## wasp (Jun 6, 2014)

Kangaroos have ----"B"-/-//


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## cook-eat-repeat (Jun 6, 2014)

Bearcarver said:


> OK----Now that we know that your "Hams" are "Fresh Pork", maybe I can answer your question better:
> 
> According to the USDA, raw Pork is good for 3 to 5 days in the fridge, so if you can get your Pork to smoke in the Fridge at under 40* F for 3 to 5 days, it would be just as safe as your "Control" "Ham" that was in the fridge for 3 to 5 days would be.
> 
> ...


YES!! This is the answer I was looking for, thank you for your help! Basically the major difference here would be for people who are allergic to curing salts or those crazy people that think that any type of chemical preservation is inherently bad for you (yes, I am aware that ALL preservation methods are on some level chemical). The ham was really just an arbitrary example piece of meat.

Smoking something while taking it up was something I hadn't really considered. Another experiment!!! Thanks for your help!


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## oscar8987 (Jul 22, 2014)

Ham is actually a process. There isn't really a cup of pork called ham, but after certain cuts have been flavoured and cured they are then known as ham.  In actual fact you could get a piece of chuck steak and put in in the smasher. Then after all grain is no longer recognizable (and the beef is thoroughly pulverized and waterlogged)  apply the ham cure and ta daaa...it looks identical and tastes like a slightly poor quality piece of ham pork. Plenty of butchers and smallgoods manufacturers do just that.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 30, 2014)

Oscar8987 said:


> Ham is actually a process. There isn't really a cup of pork called ham, but after certain cuts have been flavoured and cured they are then known as ham.  In actual fact you could get a piece of chuck steak and put in in the smasher. Then after all grain is no longer recognizable (and the beef is thoroughly pulverized and waterlogged)  apply the ham cure and ta daaa...it looks identical and tastes like a slightly poor quality piece of ham pork. Plenty of butchers and smallgoods manufacturers do just that.


Curing and Smoking is the Process...Traditionally the term* Ham* has referred a Cured and Smoked Rear Leg of a Pig. In general, there are always exceptions and marketing terms, but in the average Grocery Store an "uncured" rear leg is labeled *Fresh Ham*. A Wet Cured and Smoked rear leg, injected with cure and some % water, is labeled *Smoked Ham*. A Dry Cured Smoked rear leg is labeled *Country Ham*. Then there are Shank Portion Hams, Butt Portion Ham, Boneless Hams, Buffet Hams, Canned Hams, Etc. Here is how the Institutional Meat Purchasers Specifications read...Item # 401* Leg *(Fresh Ham)...Item # 501 *Ham*, Short Shank (Cured and Smoked). Hope this helps...JJ

BTW...I am a Chef/Instructor that taught Meat Fabrication and Charcuterie, which included making cured meats and sausages, and I come from a family of Butchers. While Turkey makes a product that can be processed to taste like Ham. Adding cure to Beef, pulverized or otherwise will only get you Corned Beef or if Smoked, Pastrami or as my Canadian friends call it, Smoked Meat, all high quality and tasty. I can't speak about Australian Butchers but here in the US, I have yet to see beef be made into poor quality ham, there is no money in it since a Beef Chuck Steak is almost if not more than Twice that of virtually any cut of Pork that would be made into Ham, or even SPAM, for that matter.


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## oscar8987 (Jul 31, 2014)

Hi, How things differ from country to country. If someone came into my shop and wanted an uncured hind leg of pork he/she would ask for a leg of pork or shoulder of pork if it was a forequarter.   Only when cured does the term ham get used.

As for the cure being used on chuck steak...while not strictly ethical I have stood there and seen it done on more than one occasion. Once it's cube pressed it was sold as ham steaks and quite convincing to the untrained eye. It even takes on the colour of ham. Our ham steaks are usually made from lesser quality pork cuts and trimmings and are quite popular over here as a much cheaper product than leg ham.

As for pork being cheaper than chuck steak...not by a long shot. Average price of ham here is around $13.00 to $18.00/kg (and depending on the shop sometimes dearer still).  Chuck steak is around $6.99/kg, hence the alteration to ham steak practice being used by less than scrupulous vendors.


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## gibsorz (Aug 27, 2014)

cook-eat-repeat said:


> YES!! This is the answer I was looking for, thank you for your help! Basically the major difference here would be for people who are allergic to curing salts or those crazy people that think that any type of chemical preservation is inherently bad for you (yes, I am aware that ALL preservation methods are on some level chemical). The ham was really just an arbitrary example piece of meat.
> 
> Smoking something while taking it up was something I hadn't really considered. Another experiment!!! Thanks for your help!



If you want to feed people who are allergic to curing salts or afraid of big bad scary nitrites, but you want to feed them cured items such as sausages and ham, you can try using celery juice powder. It has loads of naturally occurring nitrates which act as a preservative. What kind of ratio would be required for that I have no idea. I have never used it because it costs twice as much as prague powder.


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## wasp (Aug 28, 2014)

Bravo


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## tjohnson (Aug 28, 2014)

Adding Cure to your pork will give it the "Hammy" flavor people are looking for. 

Smoking this cured ham gives it the familiar smokey smell and flavor we are accustomed to.

I'm not sure of a method out there that will give you this "Hammy" flavor, but I'm sure there are artificial flavorings and colors that could accomplish this task.

Smoking pork without curing it first will give you "Smoked Pork", and not the ham flavor you and/or your customers may be looking for. 

It's ALWAYS been the policy of SMF to promote Safe Food Handling and Processing Practices

If this thread seems to promote unsafe practices, it will be removed by SMF Admin


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