# Cure for sausage question



## Doug b (Dec 10, 2017)

New to this with Masterbuilt electric analog smoker.
If I just want to add smoky flavor to venison sausage, do I need to add a cure to the meat? I thought Id try to get the smoky taste, freeze it and cook later. If that's possible can you folks please give me time and temp? Thank you from Pa.


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## boykjo (Dec 10, 2017)

You can cold smoke fresh sausage (without cure). Conditions should be below 40 degrees.  If conditions are over 40 (in the danger zone) you should add cure. When adding smokey flavor to sausage it is best to create a pellicle  (membrane, or film) on the surface of the casing then add cold smoke for approx. 2-4 hrs. depending how smokey you want it.

To create a good pellicle stuff the sausage and hang. Place a fan about 20' from the sausages but in the direction to the hanging sausage to move some air around the sausage. The moisture in the meat will penetrate through the casing and create a film on the sausage surface that will feel slightly tacky.  (This should only take a few minutes) This is when you want to add smoke to the sausages for best adhesion. If the casing becomes dry or are saturated with water you will have less adhesion of smoke.

Boykjo


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## wade (Dec 10, 2017)

If the sausages are already made then you may be better to hot smoke them with some additional smoke added - using a tube or other smoke generator. You will find that they will take on quite a smoky flavour. You can then freeze cooked/smoked and then thaw/reheat when you are ready to eat.


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## Doug b (Dec 10, 2017)

Thank you both, but forgive me I don't understand. If I stuff casings, how long to I put them in the smoker, and what temp, just to flavor them, so I can freeze to cook later? And would a cure be needed? Appreciate you getting back to me so soon. Really trying to get a handle on this.


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## boykjo (Dec 10, 2017)

Let me explain smoking in a little more detail. "Cold smoking" is using smoke (generated by a smoke generator) and is applied to sausage or cheese with no heat involved. "Hot smoking" is adding smoke along with heat (100 to 210 degrees) and is considered cooking like cooking over a fire pit. So if your looking to just flavor and not cook you need to cold smoke. You would need to generate smoke and introduce it into your smoker while your smoker is in an ambient temperature of less than 40 degrees Fahrenheit for uncured fresh sausage. If temps are over 40 degrees you would add cure and cold smoke. Once you add cure the sausage is no longer fresh sausage. it will become cured sausage. johnsonville italian sausage is a uncured fresh sausage. a hillshire farms sausage is a cured sausage.

Boykjo


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## tallbm (Dec 11, 2017)

The guys above are giving you the path with what you are asking about.  Just to recap here is what you can do:


If the temp in your smoker can be kept at 39F degrees or less, then you can apply smoke without using cure
If the temp in your smoker is 40F or greater then you should mix/use cure #1 in your meat at 1tsp for every 5 pounds and allot the proper amount of time for the cure to fully penetrate the meat
****DANGEROUS**** Smoke your meat without cure, in temp that is 40F or greater and risk serious illness or worse
That is it in 3 clear and easy options :)

A final option not mentioned because it is not what you describe that you want is:

-Hot smoke at like 225F or higher so that your meat reaches an internal temp of 141F within 4 hours and you will not need cure nor will you need to worry about risking serious illness or worse

Best of luck!


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## Doug b (Dec 11, 2017)

Thank you. But even if im planning on freezing the meat to cook fully before eating, do I still need a cure? And, if I do need to add cure, is the meat ready to eat after smoking process, or does it need to be cooked fully before eating? Forgive my iggnorence, just need to get a sure idea on this,thanks again


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## tallbm (Dec 11, 2017)

Doug b said:


> Thank you. But even if im planning on freezing the meat to cook fully before eating, do I still need a cure? And, if I do need to add cure, is the meat ready to eat after smoking process, or does it need to be cooked fully before eating? Forgive my iggnorence, just need to get a sure idea on this,thanks again



Even if you are planning to freeze the meat and fully cook later, you must abide by the safety rules or risk serious illness or worse.

The general rule is to avoid the danger zone. 
The danger zone is meat with an Internal Temp (IT) between the 40F-140F degrees for 4 hours or more.

When you apply cure you don't have to worry about the danger zone within reason (don't leave the cured meat on your counter in the summer time for 3 days and expect it to be ok).

In general adding cure #1 does not make the meat safe to eat without cooking it.

Here are some simple scenarios that will let you know if it is good to eat the meat or as bad idea.

*Uncured Meat*

*BAD *- Meat is NOT cured and smoke is applied WITHOUT cooking the meat AND smoker temp is 40F or above for 4 hours or more with the meat inside.  SOLUTION: Throw the meat out.
*BAD *- Meat is NOT cured and smoke is applied WHILE cooking the meat AND the meat Internal Temperature (IT) DOES NOT exceed 140F within 4 hours.  SOLUTION: Throw the meat out and cook at a hotter temperature next time so that the IT of the meat is greater than 140F in less than 4 hours.
*GOOD *- Meat is NOT cured and smoke is applied WHILE cooking the meat AND the meat IT hits 141F or higher in LESS THAN 4 hours.
*GOOD *- Meat is NOT cured and smoke is applied WHILE the smoker temp is UNDER 40F for the entire smoke and the meat is then frozen.  Cook the meat completely and eat at a later time.  INFO: This is basically the equivalent of applying smoke to meat in refrigerator like temperature conditions, that is why this works.  THIS IS NOT EVEN AN OPTION FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN WARM CLIMATE AREAS SUCH AS TEXAS (like me).

*Cured Meat*

*BAD* - Meat is cured and smoke is applied WIHOUT cooking the meat. SOLUTION: Cook the meat then eat.
*GOOD* - Meat is cured and smoke is applied but NO heat is used so the meat is UNCOOKED.  Meat is then put in freezer and cooked at a later date. 
*GOOD* - Meat is cured and smoke is applied WHILE cooking it in the smoker.  The meat is cooked to to a safe temperature to eat.

Your situation should fit into one of these scenarios, and do not attempt any other scenarios without getting these down like the back of your hand and you will be set :)

Let me know if this breaks it down well for ya :)


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## boykjo (Dec 12, 2017)

yeah that........




tallbm said:


> Even if you are planning to freeze the meat and fully cook later, you must abide by the safety rules or risk serious illness or worse.
> 
> The general rule is to avoid the danger zone.
> The danger zone is meat with an Internal Temp (IT) between the 40F-140F degrees for 4 hours or more.
> ...


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## muddydogs (Dec 12, 2017)

I will add this in case this is a source of confusion, the act of smoking a product does not make it safe to eat. Smoking something imparts a smokey flavor to the product, the cure and heat applied to a product is what makes it safe to eat.

Reminds me of the time I was watching a buddies house while his family was away for the holidays, they had been gone for about 3 days when I went over to check on things. I opened the door and noticed an off odor, upon entering the kitchen I notices a pan with tinfoil tented over it much like a turkey would look. I lifted up the tinfoil to find a whole turkey with just a couple slabs cut off one breast in the middle stages of turning green and nasty so I hauled it out to the trash thinking they must have forgot it setting on the counter in there rush to leave. A while later the buddy called asking how his house was and when I mentioned the turkey he said the neighbor had given them a smoked turkey a couple days before they left and since it was smoked it was ok to leave on the counter wasn't it.


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## Doug b (Dec 12, 2017)

Thank you both. I printed above info. Really appreciate the help. Long as I'm at it, years ago we made some deer sausage, no smoker then, put it cases and froze it right off the bat. It was very good, was that an exceptable way to make sausage without adding in the smoker factor, as we didn't get sick.


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## muddydogs (Dec 12, 2017)

Doug b said:


> Thank you both. I printed above info. Really appreciate the help. Long as I'm at it, years ago we made some deer sausage, no smoker then, put it cases and froze it right off the bat. It was very good, was that an exceptable way to make sausage without adding in the smoker factor, as we didn't get sick.



Sure is and its the way I do it most times. I mix my ingredients, let the mix set overnight in the fridge then stuff in cases and freeze packages. When I go to cook it I mostly just barbecue the sausages but if I want a little smoke then I start up my little tube pellet burner and set it on the barbecue grill grate to add a little smoke to the sausage while it cooks. When I make sausage I tend to make a pile and I just don't have the smoker room to smoke 60+ pounds of the stuff.

I know I'm going against the grain of the forum but not everything needs smoked to taste great and my sausage recipe tastes great without any smoke.


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## muddydogs (Dec 12, 2017)

Doug b said:


> Thank you both. I printed above info. Really appreciate the help. Long as I'm at it, years ago we made some deer sausage, no smoker then, put it cases and froze it right off the bat. It was very good, was that an exceptable way to make sausage without adding in the smoker factor, as we didn't get sick.



Also what your talking about doing here is called fresh sausage, when making fresh sausage there is no need for a cure. When time to cook your fresh sausage cook it like you would any other meat product.


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## halleone (Dec 12, 2017)

muddydogs said:


> not everything needs smoked to taste great and my sausage recipe tastes great without any smoke.


This.  Good sausage is good sausage, and I pretty much like them both ways.


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## Doug b (Dec 12, 2017)

That's great news. So, how long do you folks smoke the fresh sausage, and does it do a good job of permeating the meat?


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## muddydogs (Dec 12, 2017)

Doug b said:


> That's great news. So, how long do you folks smoke the fresh sausage, and does it do a good job of permeating the meat?



Once again the 40 to 140 in 4 hour rule applys with the fresh sausage. I just smoke the sausage on the barbecue for as long as it takes the sausage to cook under normal barbecue temps (like one would cook a hamburger), I get some smokey flavor on the sausage but it doesn't permeate the meat like a real smoke would.


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## tallbm (Dec 12, 2017)

muddydogs said:


> Once again the 40 to 140 in 4 hour rule applys with the fresh sausage. I just smoke the sausage on the barbecue for as long as it takes the sausage to cook under normal barbecue temps (like one would cook a hamburger), I get some smokey flavor on the sausage but it doesn't permeate the meat like a real smoke would.



^^^ This :)


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## Doug b (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm sorry, I guess I'm kind of dense, but if I make fresh sausage, freeze it, unthaw it, to cook, would I grill/fry it first to doneness then smoke it, or other way around? And, if so, how long to give it smoky taste? I appreciate your patience with me on this,thank you again.


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## tallbm (Dec 12, 2017)

Doug b said:


> I'm sorry, I guess I'm kind of dense, but if I make fresh sausage, freeze it, unthaw it, to cook, would I grill/fry it first to doneness then smoke it, or other way around? And, if so, how long to give it smoky taste? I appreciate your patience with me on this,thank you again.



Fresh Sausage Process:


Freeze it
Thaw it out
Grill or Put in smoker and apply smoke but make sure the sausage cooks to an IT of 141F or higher in 4 hours or less

If you cook it completely and then try to apply smoke it won't do much good because the smoke will not likely penetrate to add flavor.  If you apply smoke while cooking and following the danger zone safety rule then you can cook at any temp that follows the safety rule of getting to 141F or higher in less than 4 hours.

Here are some real life options:

*Grilling Sausage (fresh or cured sausage works this way)*:  Get the grill good and hot on one side (half) of the grill.  Put some wood to start smoking on the coals/flame/etc.  Place the sausage on the side that is NOT directly over the coals/flame and grill until done (160F internal temperature).  Should take no more than 20 minutes cooking the fresh sausage with indirect heat this way.

*Smoking FRESH Sausage in the Smoker:*  Set/Get the smoker to 225F temp.  Add the sausages and apply smoke.  Pull the sausages when they hit 160F internal temperature.  This should likely take no longer than an hour or so is my guess.  Again pull when they hit an IT of 160F.   This would also work for cured sausages that you smoke hot but this does not produce the same kind of sausage you see in the display at the butcher shop.

Those options should serve you well.  Conquer this for a about 10-20 attempts and then cured butcher shop style sausage smoking can be worked up to.  :)


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## Doug b (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks for the tips, appreciate it


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## DanMcG (Dec 15, 2017)

you could always add liquid smoke to the mix, stuff and freeze, thaw and cook anyway you want. Bam, fresh smoke added sausages.
And it's really not a sin to use Liquid smoke :)


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## boykjo (Dec 15, 2017)

Agreed!!!!!


danmcg said:


> you could always add liquid smoke to the mix, stuff and freeze, thaw and cook anyway you want. Bam, fresh smoke added sausages.
> And it's really not a sin to use Liquid smoke :)


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## Michael James Belcher (Jan 28, 2018)

muddydogs said:


> Also what your talking about doing here is called fresh sausage, when making fresh sausage there is no need for a cure. When time to cook your fresh sausage cook it like you would any other meat product.



I have to disagree.  I am pretty sure If your product will be warmer than 40F (during smoking), Cure #1 is necessary for food safety purposes.  The exception being if your product is fully cooked to it's required minimum internal temperature (depending on the meat being used) within 4 hours.  Contrary to what a previous poster mentioned, your IT should be higher than 140F.  (An IT above the high limit of the "danger zone" does not constitute what is considered to be fully cooked.


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## muddydogs (Jan 28, 2018)

Michael James Belcher said:


> I have to disagree.  I am pretty sure If your product will be warmer than 40F (during smoking), Cure #1 is necessary for food safety purposes.  The exception being if your product is fully cooked to it's required minimum internal temperature (depending on the meat being used) within 4 hours.  Contrary to what a previous poster mentioned, your IT should be higher than 140F.  (An IT above the high limit of the "danger zone" does not constitute what is considered to be fully cooked.



Not sure what your even talking about on this older thread? From what I can tell I was answering a question about fresh sausage and cooking it. Don't even think there was an mention of smoking the sausage in his question or my answer.


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