# I just saw Giada from the Foodnetwork...



## richoso1 (Jun 5, 2010)

on an episode called " Tex-Mex" (2010). She made a marinade that included lime juice and orange juice, then she put raw chicken and raw flank steak into the same container. After she pulled it out of the fridge, she directly placed both chicken and beef on the same flat grill pan to cook at the same time, without even a rinse. I don't know how safe that would be, maybe someone can set my apprehensions aside..


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## zepicurean (Jun 5, 2010)

It's totally safe as long as both products were cooked to 165F, which is the temp the chicken needs to be cooked to.


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## richoso1 (Jun 5, 2010)

With all due respect, then why do we smoke chicken on the lowest rack, below any other meats? Contamination from raw drippings?


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## eman (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes that is why we smoke yard bird on the bottom rack.

Allthough i would never marinate chicken in the same container with any other meat,

 i can see where with all citrus juice marinade and cooking on high heat some would consider it safe.

 Would i do it? NO.


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## smokey paul (Jun 5, 2010)

One as long as they both are cooked to the proper temp. no problem...

we do not like the drippings of chicken to fall on red meat or other meat because of the contamination problem here it was cooked on the same plain not over each other.

They also take the marinade and cook it to temp and use it as juice or part of a dipping sauce.

I would not do it as one little bug will get away and cause a big problem  LOL


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## pineywoods (Jun 5, 2010)

Rich personally I don't think I would marinade both in the same container nor cook them in the same pan. As for the place of the chicken in the smoker check out this thread

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78702/usda-response-on-cooking-chicken

Personally my poultry is still placed below other meats


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## richoso1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Pineywoods said:


> Rich personally I don't think I would marinade both in the same container nor cook them in the same pan. As for the place of the chicken in the smoker check out this thread
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78702/usda-response-on-cooking-chicken
> 
> Personally my poultry is still placed below other meats


Jerry, I agree with your opinion, and I practice the same technique. My concern is that the general public sees and hears these things, and they will mostly take it for granted that it is a safe practice. And possibly some new members too.


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## rdknb (Jun 5, 2010)

It may be a good idea to email the food network and mention that to them .  I too place poultry on the bottom rack, to me you can not be too safe


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## meateater (Jun 5, 2010)

Giada went to culinary school so she should be aware of the danger factor 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






. I have smoked wings alongside sausages but they never swam in the same pool before the TBS.


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## richoso1 (Jun 6, 2010)

RdKnB said:


> It may be a good idea to email the food network and mention that to them .  I too place poultry on the bottom rack, to me you can not be too safe


I just sent an email to the FoodNetwork asking for an explanation. Let's see how they respond, if they do, I'd be surprised.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jun 6, 2010)

That email response sure would be interesting, richoso...

I think most of our methods for prep/cooking of meats are based on traditions passed down through the generations. Some of these traditions were long ago based on theories regarding cross-contamination and safe cooking temperatures, etc, while other methods are based upon proven fact through modern science.

As for using the same container for different types of meats for a marinade, and especially simultaneously marinating two (or more) types...I can't say that I would ever use that method...I can say that the idea just doesn't give me a very warm, happy feeling inside. If I knew this method was used for a meal being prepared for me to eat, I would likely be skeptical about partaking. Would my personal convictions on the subject be justifiable? Until proven otherwise to me, in what I would determine to be an acceptable method of testing, yes. So, that said, I would lean towards the "traditional" method of not mixing meats before cooking...ever. That's just me...

A contradiction to my statement about not mixing different types of meats is a common practice, which I do enjoy eating regularly...beef/pork mixed country style sausage (smoked or fresh), purchased from a meat market back in my childhood stomping grounds. There are many other sausage/wurst recipes which contain two or more species of meats, including among the most common, which there is a high consumer demand for...I speak of none other than the good ol' hot dog, which is, as any of us who read labels knows, loaded with stuff that most of us would rather not ingest.

My opinion is this: when in doubt, don't do it. In this case, how much more trouble would it be to use two containers for marinating the meats separately? Not much...maybe an extra 20 seconds of clean-up time...so, why risk raising someone eyebrows over it??? I try not do anything when I prep or cook which may cause someone else distress...if I knew someone didn't trust me to cook their meal...well, that wouldn't make me feel very good..not one bit.

I digressed...again! LOL!!!

Eric


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## zepicurean (Jun 6, 2010)

As a Certified HACCP Manager, I'll give you my $0.02

1) Yes, keep chicken on the bottom rack of your smoker. The same goes for your fridge. The product that requires the highest temp to cook should be on the bottom. So, it might go like this: 

Top - Veggies

2nd shelf - beef, steaks, brisket, etc., not ground beef. (internal temp of 120F or more, though some like steak really rare)

3rd shelf- pork, ground beef (The new temp for pork is 145F, but I still like it cooked to the old 155F, ground beef is 155F too)

4th shelf- poultry (165F, and if you stuff a turkey, the stuffing needs to reach 165F too)

2) You can marinate whatever you like together, but you need to cook it to the highest common denominator. Example, if you marinate chicken, onions, steak tips, and carrots, the mixture needs to be cooked to 165F because of the chicken. 

We can also talk about the Temperature Danger Zone as well if you like. Let me know!


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## chefrob (Jun 6, 2010)

zepicurean said:


> 2nd shelf - beef, steaks, brisket, etc., not ground beef. (*internal temp of 120F or more*, though some like steak really rare)


even though i like mine at 125-130 , this temp would not fly with the local health dept.


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## mballi3011 (Jun 6, 2010)

I to keep all my poulrty on the bottom racks for that just what I do. Now I haven't always done that but it wasn't till the last few years that I would smoke any different meat in the same smoker. Now it has been a conversation here for years about the food safety of where to place chicken and I figured we always agreed to keep it on the bottom. Now I will be awaiting the reply from The Food Network's answer too. I have seen them do some stupid things before for I watch alot of it too.


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## athabaskar (Jun 8, 2010)

Some good, sensible replies to this thread. One thing to consider is that marinading in lime and orange juice essentially cooked the meats, as in ceviche. The important thing was to bring them to a safe temperature to verify the demise of any bad stuff. I personally would never marinade two different meats together. It's just creepy to me having been taught food safety when food sources were not as safe as today. Even now, if you saw how chickens are commercially processed most would be horrified.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 8, 2010)

Does Giada cook on her show?

I knew she was hot, but I never knew she did any cooking.

Bearcarver


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## ondagawood (Jun 8, 2010)

Yes she does, she went to culinary school in Italy, she's the daughter of Dino DeLaurentis,

famous movie producer.

Enjoy the view (I mean show !)
 


Bearcarver said:


> Does Giada cook on her show?
> 
> I knew she was hot, but I never knew she did any cooking.
> 
> Bearcarver


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## harryho (Jun 8, 2010)

ondagawood said:


> Yes she does, she went to culinary school in Italy, she's the daughter of Dino DeLaurentis,
> 
> famous movie producer.
> 
> Enjoy the view (I mean show !)


Actually, she attended Le Cordon Bleu in Paris, not in Italy, also, she is Dino DeLaurentis' Grand Daughter.


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## coffee_junkie (Jun 8, 2010)

I have read that it doesn't make a hoots worth of difference as long as both pieces of meat get cooked beyond the chicken danger zone. Here are the threads, http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78702/usda-response-on-cooking-chicken and http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78708/re-usda-response-on-cooking-chicken


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## richoso1 (Jun 8, 2010)

coffee_junkie said:


> I have read that it doesn't make a hoots worth of difference as long as both pieces of meat get cooked beyond the chicken danger zone. Here are the threads, http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78702/usda-response-on-cooking-chicken and http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/78708/re-usda-response-on-cooking-chicken


I did email the FoodNetwork regarding my concerns, and aside from an automated confirmation of my question, I have yet to get an answer. If and when I do, I'll post it here at SMF.


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## richoso1 (Jun 8, 2010)

I just got a response from the FoodNetwork in response to my email regarding Giada's method of marinating/cooking chicken with beef.

From: Scripps Networks Customer Service <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Giada At Home (#6563-178856986-8947)
To: richoso1
Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 1:40 PM

 

Hello and thank you for your email.  Please accept our sincere apology for the delay in getting back to you with this response.

As long as the meat is cooked correctly, at least medium well, there is no contamination as any germs would have been killed during the cooking process.

Best regards,

Scripps Networks Customer Service

This is their answer, but I still wouldn't do it. Just me.


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## bmudd14474 (Jun 8, 2010)

richoso1 said:


> I just got a response from the FoodNetwork in response to my email regarding Giada's method of marinating/cooking chicken with beef.
> 
> From: Scripps Networks Customer Service <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: Giada At Home (#6563-178856986-8947)
> ...


Me either Rich.


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## ondagawood (Jun 8, 2010)

X2 here !

Scott


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## distre (Aug 10, 2010)

I'd have to do them separately. So much for trusting what you see on foodnetwork.


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## squirrel (Aug 10, 2010)

OMG Food Network is all about the money. I visit their site regularly only to see some of the most ridiculous handling of food, and obviously never prepared recipes. I really don't think they test stuff like they say they do. I have come across may crazy errors. They have turned in to a greedy network. Just my opinion.


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## meateater (Aug 10, 2010)

32 years ago when I ran a Q we cooked pork,beef and yard bird seperate. I did it daily but can't remember the order, CRS catching up.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 11, 2010)

We must be careful what we say.

Alton Brown & his worshippers could be around.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Surely such a beautiful young lady like Giada could do no wrong.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Or the old---"These aren't TV Celebs, these are great cooks & curing & smoking geniuses".

Bear


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## eman (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is a reply to the question ,Is it ok to marinate beef and chicken in the same container

 From karen at the USDA,
There is no danger is marinating raw chicken and beef together. If they are cooked thoroughly they will be safe. There is nothing on chicken that can't be killed if it is on beef, and vice-versa. The danger is in mixing raw products with cooked products, because if you get bacteria on a ready-to-eat product it will not be destroyed since it is not going to be cooked. But in the case of raw products, they will all be cooked so the bacteria will be destroyed


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## bbally (Aug 11, 2010)

eman said:


> Here is a reply to the question ,Is it ok to marinate beef and chicken in the same container
> 
> From karen at the USDA,
> There is no danger is marinating raw chicken and beef together. If they are cooked thoroughly they will be safe. There is nothing on chicken that can't be killed if it is on beef, and vice-versa. The danger is in mixing raw products with cooked products, because if you get bacteria on a ready-to-eat product it will not be destroyed since it is not going to be cooked. But in the case of raw products, they will all be cooked so the bacteria will be destroyed


Karen is sniffing glue.

The problem is that beef has different cooking temps allowed then chicken does.

She would be correct if she said the beef can be marinated with the chicken if it is cooked to poultry temperatures.


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## squirrel (Aug 12, 2010)

I thought that same thing bbally, but I read somewhere (trying to find it to post) that the bacteria is only going to be on the outside of the meat, so it doesn't matter if you cook it rare, you've still killed any bacteria. So I take that to mean the bacteria does not get inside the meat only on the outside. I hope I can find that article.

I still wouldn't do it. I just think it's creepy.


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## cricky101 (Aug 12, 2010)

Squirrel said:


> I thought that same thing bbally, but I read somewhere (trying to find it to post) that the bacteria is only going to be on the outside of the meat, so it doesn't matter if you cook it rare, you've still killed any bacteria. So I take that to mean the bacteria does not get inside the meat only on the outside. I hope I can find that article.
> 
> I still wouldn't do it. I just think it's creepy.


I agree that I wouldn't do it either, but your thoughts make sense: The chicken is cooked through to at least 165F killing the bacteria. On the meat, if the bacteria is just on the outside, it would be killed quickly by the 200 degree+ ambient temperatures even if the interior of the meat never gets that hot. But again, that's only if the bacteria is only on the outside ....


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## chefrob (Aug 12, 2010)

bbally said:


> She would be correct if she said the beef can be marinated with the chicken if it is cooked to poultry temperatures.


bob, i'm sure that's what karen ment to say but as usual people NOT in the business and DON'T have their livelyhood on the line, fail to effectively communicate just what needs to be done to ensure safety.............but then again those of us who are in the biz would have never subscribed,endorsed, or defended this unsafe food handling practice.


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## eman (Aug 12, 2010)

If you go back and read all the replies ,i said that i would not do this .But since everyone here allways refers back to the usda guidelines i figure'd i 'd ask them.

 Wow, now everyone that allways quotes usda regs is all of a sudden a better resource than the one they usually quote.

 Just goes to show that when we as smokers believe something  even the folks that set the rules can't change our minds.


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## shooterrick (Aug 12, 2010)

Well I think we are compareing apples and oranges.  Cooking in the same pan at high heat is not the same animal as slow smoking.  The first difference that comes to mind is poultry by most accounts is smoked at 275-325.  Since these temps are not usually used when smoking say butt, ribs, or brisket, the lower temps for these meats would allow the poultry to remain in the danger zone longer than we would like and thus should not be allowed to drip on other products. 

We also tend to think of say beef as a bag of water and thus some say never fork a steak while cooking.  Actually this is somewhat of a myth as beef as well as other meat is cellular in makeup so a once or twice poke with a fork only affects those fiber cells damaged.  Once you understand this then we can realize what we are concerned with is the space between the cellular fibors which can be substancial.  Just stretch a piece of well marbeled meat and you will see what I mean.  That leaves alot of area for bad things to get and hide in. Dont let poultry drip on other meat being cooked low and slow.  While an argument can be made that once all producst reach the desired internal temp all bad things are gone, I would encourage anyone to error on the side of safety.


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## ptbrauch (Aug 13, 2010)

Guys, you'll be fine if you marinate even known-to-be-tainted chicken with any other meat in a marinade of orange juice and adding lemon juice and/or lime juice makes it even that much better--their pH range is down closer to 2.  The pH of orange juice ranges from 3 to 4.  No pathogens can grow at that pH level.  A pH level of 4.6 used to be the standard to prevent pathogen growth, but they've now found some Salmonella growth at 4.2 under the right conditions.  So, if the meat was contaminated, it would essentially be sterilized by the marinade.  As a previous poster mentioned, your greatest threat is raw to cooked contamination. 

And if you were to determine the pH of most marinades you'd find they have low pH's and often high salt contents. A low pH is all part of what makes a marinade work.  The low pH begins to denature the proteins making  up the muscle tissue of the meat, resulting in a more tender piece of meat.  Ever notice how most marinades being with vinegar?  The high salt also acts as a preservative (country ham anyone?).


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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

so you would be up to drinking a smoothy made from o.j. and raw chicken that was left out overnight?


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## lucky13 (Aug 13, 2010)

chefrob, i would be interested in your recipe for day-old OJ and raw chicken smoothie, sounds delicious


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

Shooter - 

You are correct, and the difference should be noted.  Cooking foods at high temperatures on the stove or in the oven is NOT the same (and does not necessarily follow the same safety rules) as cooking foods in a smoker.  

I like Food Network, but I don't chalk them up as experts, and common sense rules the day.   


ShooterRick said:


> Well I think we are compareing apples and oranges.  Cooking in the same pan at high heat is not the same animal as slow smoking.  The first difference that comes to mind is poultry by most accounts is smoked at 275-325.  Since these temps are not usually used when smoking say butt, ribs, or brisket, the lower temps for these meats would allow the poultry to remain in the danger zone longer than we would like and thus should not be allowed to drip on other products.
> 
> We also tend to think of say beef as a bag of water and thus some say never fork a steak while cooking.  Actually this is somewhat of a myth as beef as well as other meat is cellular in makeup so a once or twice poke with a fork only affects those fiber cells damaged.  Once you understand this then we can realize what we are concerned with is the space between the cellular fibors which can be substancial.  Just stretch a piece of well marbeled meat and you will see what I mean.  That leaves alot of area for bad things to get and hide in. Dont let poultry drip on other meat being cooked low and slow.  While an argument can be made that once all producst reach the desired internal temp all bad things are gone, I would encourage anyone to error on the side of safety.





bbally said:


> Karen is sniffing glue.
> 
> Â
> 
> ...


Bbally - I agree.  As long as both meats are cooked to the poultry temp, it should be fine. 

When Brian emailed the USDA in regard to meat & chicken being cooked together, this was part of their response:

*"If chicken drips on beef (or vise versa) in the smoker it is not a safety issue because the chicken and the beef will be cooked thoroughly and the bacteria will be destroyed."*

This would ONLY be an issue, then, if Giada's recipe called for the beef to be removed from the pan prior to the chicken being completely done.  Since her recipe presumably calls for the meat to be completely cooked, I would say that she is being maligned unnecessarily.  

It might have been nice if the show had made a note to the viewer that the flank stank must remain in the pan with the chicken until the chicken is done.


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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

Abigail4476 said:


> It might have been nice if the show had made a note to the viewer that the flank stank must remain in the pan with the chicken until the chicken is done.


it has nothing to do with only the chicken being done.........now all ingredients must come up to the correct doneness temp for chicken. in theory if it is in the same pan all would be the same but if a part of the beef is covered by somthing else (or just double thickness) it may not have the same exposure to heat as the rest of the food, this is just one reason why it is a potentially unsafe practice.


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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> chefrob, i would be interested in your recipe for day-old OJ and raw chicken smoothie, sounds delicious


it is a real eye opener first in the morning.......not so much around noon time!


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

You're right, of course.  My bad.  :)  

I just think it's overkill (npi) to pick on shows that don't focus on cooking "low and slow."  The safety rules aren't exactly the same, and most of the shows are aimed at home cooks cooking on the stovetop or in the oven. 

This forum specializes in smoking, which is cooking slowly at low temperatures, and there are some major safety concerns involved in that type of cooking.  Therefore, those who have expert opinions on the topic are highly appreciated.  However, when you cross into the arena of everyday cooking, which is usually hot and quick, there are definitely some distinctions, and it can become highly debatable. 


chefrob said:


> it has nothing to do with only the chicken being done.........*now all ingredients must come up to the correct doneness temp for chicken*. in theory if it is in the same pan all would be the same but if a part of the beef is covered by somthing else (or just double thickness) it may not have the same exposure to heat as the rest of the food, this is just one reason why it is a potentially unsafe practice.


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

I have a bone to pick with the USDA anyway, as they prefer all my fish to be cooked, and I'm a sashimi eater.  :)  

I understand that we should follow safe guidelines, but there will be occasional exceptions, and a few risks here and there.  I still like a raw egg in my shakes and my steaks rare or medium rare, habits I inherited from my father and never gave up, in spite of nagging from my husband.


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## TulsaJeff (Aug 13, 2010)

Geez louise Abi... stop causing trouble already!! Don't make me pull your mod badge
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I think everyone has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with and the USDA is not always right.. there, I said it. For years the USDA recommended 180 for poultry so you have a decade of folks who think dry turkey is normal fare.

Thank God they finally saw the light and changed it to 165.

The USDA is a standard that we try to follow within certain boundaries however, at my house, a lot of logic is applied. For instance, everyone debates on where the chicken should be located in the smoker. Normally I follow the chicken on the bottom rule but if I was smoking chicken with brisket and started them at the same time, chicken would obviously go on top since it would reach it's done temperature while the brisket was still somewhat raw.

That is called allowing common sense to play a part.

In most cases I would start the brisket then add the chicken about 4 hours before the brisket is done in order to get them done at the same time. In that case, the chicken would be on the bottom.

There is a ton  of debate on this subject.. and I have to do what makes the most sense to me. I agree that what works for Giada on food network while cooking it hot and fast may not always apply to the low and slow methods that we employ here.

As far as eating raw eggs and raw fish... not happening inside of my skeleton!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I do eat the occasional medium rare steak or prime rib
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	






Abigail4476 said:


> I have a bone to pick with the USDA anyway, as they prefer all my fish to be cooked, and I'm a sashimi eater.  :)
> 
> I understand that we should follow safe guidelines, but there will be occasional exceptions, and a few risks here and there.  I still like a raw egg in my shakes and my steaks rare or medium rare, habits I inherited from my father and never gave up, in spite of nagging from my husband.


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)




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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

abi...........for the most part i am new to this world of BBQ and i do not know what med or med-hi settings are. the only thing i cooked low and slow before BBQ was prime ribs and sauce reductions. i guess i am brainwashed from close to 30yrs of never mixing raw chix and any other meats when marinating.......my mentors as well as health dept reps would have never permited this, i guess old habits are hard to break.


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

I wouldn't be inclined to mix raw chicken with anything either.  Generally speaking, I'm scared to death of raw poultry and try to make sure it doesn't touch anything else in the kitchen!  However, I guess I was just thinking that as long as was all cooked through, it would turn out alright in the end.  I see your point about sitting in a marinade, though.  

Imperfections aside, _Food Network_ still remains one of my favorite vices.  Iron Chef America is my favorite, followed closely by Chopped.  Jeff and I were watching Rachael Ray one night, and she didn't wash her hands after handling raw meat.  Or, at least, the show didn't FILM that happening, ergo it made it look like she hadn't washed her hands.  I know that I wash my hands a gazillion times a day, especially when I'm dealing with raw meat, so I think it's likely that she did wash her hands even though it appeared to the viewer that she didn't.  Big _faux pas_, IMO. 

We have a family friend that visits us from time to time, and loves to cook for us.  I have to watch him like a hawk in the kitchen, because he chops his veggies and meat on the same cutting board.  I'm constantly grabbing the cutting boards, handing him new ones and washing the ones he just used.  LOL!!!  

...prime rib...that sounds really good!  I'm getting hungry!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	






chefrob said:


> abi...........for the most part i am new to this world of BBQ and i do not know what med or med-hi settings are. the only thing i cooked low and slow before BBQ was prime ribs and sauce reductions. i guess i am brainwashed from close to 30yrs of never mixing raw chix and any other meats when marinating.......my mentors as well as health dept reps would have never permited this, i guess old habits are hard to break.




Prime rib...that sounds really good.  I'm getting hungry! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Prime rib...that sounds really good.  I'm getting hungry!


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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

Abigail4476 said:


> We have a family friend that visits us from time to time, and loves to cook for us.  I have to watch him like a hawk in the kitchen, because he chops his veggies and meat on the same cutting board.  I'm constantly grabbing the cutting boards, handing him new ones and washing the ones he just used.  LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no one cooks in my kitchen..........well, i guess my girlfriend sometimes and i only let my mom do little things on once in a while! BTW both are very good cooks!


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## chefrob (Aug 13, 2010)

....and abi, what the heck are those funny 'A' 's?


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## meateater (Aug 14, 2010)

There sounded ou ! German.

 


chefrob said:


> ....and abi, what the heck are those funny 'A' 's?


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## abigail4476 (Aug 14, 2010)

I don't know what the crazy A's are...they've been appearing in my posts.  It's a bug--I sent an email via the feedback form earlier.  Sometimes when I refresh a couple of times, they disappear.  *weird*


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## Bearcarver (Aug 14, 2010)

chefrob said:


> ....and abi, what the heck are those funny 'A' 's?


Maybe Abi bought her computer in Canada, A?

Never can tell, A?







Bear


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## ptbrauch (Aug 14, 2010)

chefrob said:


> so you would be up to drinking a smoothy made from o.j. and raw chicken that was left out overnight?


That would depend on what else was mixed into the smoothie.  If the pH was kept low enough, then from a food safety standpoint, then I wouldn't have any issues--especially if it were cooked.  However, from a flavor stand point; a raw chicken (or even cooked for that matter) smoothie, I'd pass. 

One flawed assumption you're making here is that all chicken is always contaminated with salmonella.  That's not the case.  The organism isn't just floating around in the air, looking for a piece of raw chicken to land on.  Its got to already be there--gotten there from overspray of the hoses at the processing plant, inadequate cleaning at the processing plant, or some other source of contamination.  Though not always successful, meat packing plants go to great lengths to minimize pathogen contamination. In all likelihood, chicken left out overnight would show signs of spoilage organisms, giving it an off odor, color, or flavor; making it unappetizing to eat.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 14, 2010)

ptbrauch said:


> That would depend on what else was mixed into the smoothie.  If the pH was kept low enough, then from a food safety standpoint, then I wouldn't have any issues--especially if it were cooked.  However, from a flavor stand point; a raw chicken (or even cooked for that matter) smoothie, I'd pass.
> 
> Â
> 
> One flawed assumption you're making here is that all chicken is always contaminated with salmonella.  That's not the case.  The organism isn't just floating around in the air, looking for a piece of raw chicken to land on.  Its got to already be there--gotten there from overspray of the hoses at the processing plant, inadequate cleaning at the processing plant, or some other source of contamination.  Though not always successful, meat packing plants go to great lengths to minimize pathogen contamination. In all likelihood, chicken left out overnight would show signs of spoilage organisms, giving it an off odor, color, or flavor; making it unappetizing to eat.


Hmmm, In other words the odds are that if it doesn't look bad, smell bad, or taste bad, it's OK ???

What are the odds that if you take your bow & arrow out, come to full draw and shoot straight up, that the arrow won't hit you when it comes down? The odds are astronomical. So would you do it? If so, how many times would you do it?

"Deer Hunter"?

"Russian Roulette"?

I'll pass,

Bearcarver


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## chefrob (Aug 14, 2010)

ptbrauch said:


> That would depend on what else was mixed into the smoothie.*   If the pH was kept low enough, then from a food safety standpoint, then I wouldn't have any issues--especially if it were cooked.*   However, from a flavor stand point; a raw chicken (or even cooked for that matter) smoothie, I'd pass.
> 
> Â
> 
> *One flawed assumption you're making here is that all chicken is always contaminated with salmonella. * That's not the case.  The organism isn't just floating around in the air, looking for a piece of raw chicken to land on.  Its got to already be there--gotten there from overspray of the hoses at the processing plant, inadequate cleaning at the processing plant, or some other source of contamination.  Though not always successful, meat packing plants go to great lengths to minimize pathogen contamination. In all likelihood, chicken left out overnight would show signs of spoilage organisms, giving it an off odor, color, or flavor; making it unappetizing to eat.


i don't care if you put a sterilized piece of chicken in solid o.j. and left it on the counter for 12-24hrs and then cooked it to 165............you will be making very quick trips to the restroom for at least a day or so. i never singled out salmonela, ecoli,or staph or anything else that could make you sick..........there are pathogens in the air and on everything.


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## eman (Aug 16, 2010)

One of the sites i visited said that 70 % of the chicken that is sent to market is cotaminated w/ something that will make us ill.


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## venture (Aug 17, 2010)

Chicken should always go on the bottom cause pork fat tastes better on chicken than chicken fat does on pork.


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## gnubee (Aug 17, 2010)

I put Chicken on the bottom rack in the smoker for two reasons. First so it doesn't drip contaminants on other types of meat and also because It has a ton of fat drip off of it and I don't like chicken fat in my ribs, abt's, fatties etc. I try to stagger the meats vertically so the drips miss the food below.

Post #12 Quote The product that requires the highest temp to cook should be on the bottom.

What am I missing here? I always thought that the higher temps of an oven were near the top of the oven not the bottom. Although in my MES I believe that the temps are pretty much even throughout the oven.

Regarding the case in question, if the marinading is done over a short period say a half to three quarters of an hour I see no harm in combining the meats, but if they are left in the fridge overnight I'd say no. Having said that personally I'd use two bowls instead of one.

I make tamales using pounded & sliced chicken breast, sliced pork tenderloin, and sliced beef tenderloin all marinated in taco sauce. I place the meats in a mason jar with the sauce and some spices then use my vaccume bagger to suck out the air. After 20 minutes in the fridge The taco sauce is infused into the now tenderized meat. This then goes into a sizzling hot wok with some garlic. I do the veggies in a seperate wok, it makes the timing much easier. The vaccuming of the meats speeds up the process, thus reducing the marinating time. I regard this method as being perfectly safe.


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## rw willy (Aug 18, 2010)

Venture said:


> Chicken should always go on the bottom cause pork fat tastes better on chicken than chicken fat does on pork.


So true.

I feel I am a sanitary worry wart but....

You can't tell me that the drop of raw chicken juice that falls on a rack of ribs in a 225 smoker is still crawling with germs.  If I dipped the temp probe in chicken juice then placed it in the smoker the bugs would be dead.  The surface of the ribs is at the air temp.,  Now if I placed a chicken on top of cooked ribs then pulled the ribs, that would be bad.

Be safe and smoke on.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 18, 2010)

RW Willy said:


> So true.
> 
> I feel I am a sanitary worry wart but....
> 
> ...


But then again:

*Foodborne Pathogens:*

_Staphylococcus aureus_  (staph) - Bacteria are destroyed by cooking and processing but can be re-introduced via mishandling. *The bacteria can then produce a toxin which is not destroyed by further cooking.*

Source:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/FactSheets/Ham/index.asp#3


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## roklimo (Aug 19, 2010)

On a lighter note, when I watch Giada I seldom can focus on the food or the recipe...


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## alelover (Aug 19, 2010)

roklimo said:


> On a lighter note, when I watch Giada I seldom can focus on the food or the recipe...


YUP


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## sqwib (Aug 19, 2010)

alelover said:


> YUP









Now that's what I call SMOKING!!!

 


roklimo said:


> On a lighter note, when I watch Giada I seldom can focus on the food or the recipe...


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## richoso1 (Aug 19, 2010)

In the words of the unforgettable W. C. Fields " She's the banquet of my eyes". Nuff said...


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## Bearcarver (Aug 19, 2010)

SQWIB said:


> Now that's what I call SMOKING!!!


Beautiful!

Hard to believe she used to  be a guy.


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## ak1 (Aug 19, 2010)

What????


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## coffee_junkie (Aug 19, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Beautiful!
> 
> Hard to believe she used to  be a guy.







AK1 said:


> What????


Hard to believe she used to be a guy....since she had a baby and all. As far as I know they don't have a surgery for that!


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## Bearcarver (Aug 19, 2010)

coffee_junkie said:


> Hard to believe she used to be a guy....since she had a baby and all. As far as I know they don't have a surgery for that!


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## bbally (Aug 20, 2010)

Abigail4476 said:


> Bbally - I agree.  As long as both meats are cooked to the poultry temp, it should be fine.
> 
> When Brian emailed the USDA in regard to meat & chicken being cooked together, this was part of their response:
> 
> ...


I disagree;  clearly USDA food code calls for no cross contamination of products with different cooking temperatures.

If one looks at the Flank Steak cooking temperatures in the USDA guidelines it is allowable to pull a flank steak after a sear and serve it rare.

They should have indicated the steak must be cooked pasted 165F.


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## lucky13 (Aug 20, 2010)

> Beautiful!
> 
> Hard to believe she used to  be a guy.


 Bear, just about fell out of my chair! LMAO


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## sqwib (Aug 20, 2010)

She is pretty even for a dude,

I always say to my kids when watching her show that she looks like a Bratz Doll.

Sorry I will not go off topic anymore.

Very interesting thread, makes you wonder but I would have to agree, that meats with different "done" temps should be cooked separately.

And if I have been following this thread correctly, I would have to say that Food Network should have specified that both should be cooked to the internal temp of the food that required the higher internal temp.

I will mix meats in gumbos and such but that's a whole different ball game.... or is it


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## wildflower (Aug 20, 2010)

never have liked her


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## alelover (Aug 20, 2010)

Too funny.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 20, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> Bear, just about fell out of my chair! LMAO


LOL----You had the easy part. All you guys had to do was read it.

I had to type parts of it three times
My hand was shaking from laughing at my own joke.


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## ak1 (Aug 20, 2010)

You may agree with it but you would be wrong in this case. 

Because you're cooking two different whole cuts of meat, the internal temperature is not important. What is important is the external temperature. As long as that meets the USDA guidelines you're good to go.


SQWIB said:


> Very interesting thread, makes you wonder but I would have to agree, that meats with different "done" temps should be cooked separately.
> 
> And if I have been following this thread correctly, I would have to say that Food Network should have specified that both should be cooked to the internal temp of the food that required the higher internal temp.


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## bbally (Aug 20, 2010)

AK1 said:


> You may agree with it but you would be wrong in this case.
> 
> Because you're cooking two different whole cuts of meat, the internal temperature is not important. What is important is the external temperature. As long as that meets the USDA guidelines you're good to go.


Not true, only if they are part of a combined dish would food code allow them to be combined.  Other than when combined as ingredients they are to remain seperate.

(2) _Except when combined as ingredients_, separating types of raw animal foods from each other such as beef, fish, lamb, pork, and poultry during storage, preparation, holding, and display by:

(a) Using separate equipment for each type, [sup]P[/sup] or
(b) Arranging each type of food in equipment so that cross contamination of one type with another is prevented, [sup]P[/sup] and
(c) Preparing each type of food at different times or in separate areas; [sup]P[/sup]


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## ak1 (Aug 20, 2010)

eman said:


> If you go back and read all the replies ,i said that i would not do this .But since everyone here allways refers back to the usda guidelines i figure'd i 'd ask them.
> 
> Wow, now everyone that allways quotes usda regs is all of a sudden a better resource than the one they usually quote.
> 
> Just goes to show that when we as smokers believe something  even the folks that set the rules can't change our minds.


I'm still waiting for the answer to this!


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## Bearcarver (Aug 21, 2010)

bbally said:


> Not true, only if they are part of a combined dish would food code allow them to be combined.  Other than when combined as ingredients they are to remain seperate.
> 
> (2) _Except when combined as ingredients_, separating types of raw animal foods from each other such as beef, fish, lamb, pork, and poultry during storage, preparation, holding, and display by:
> 
> ...


Thanks bbally.  

I hate when people make things up as they go along.

I can always count on you to bring the facts to the table.

Bear


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## abigail4476 (Aug 21, 2010)

I did think about gumbo when reading this thread, BUT with gumbo--I always cook my chicken first, reserving the broth; cool and debone--get my other ingredients going, then add it back to the pot when I add in the andouille, and simmer them together.  So technically, even in gumbo, I guess I'm still cooking the meats separately...sort of--because the chicken is cooked completely before I put everything else in.  Is that correct?  Or is that cross-contaminating somehow?  I don't know...I think I'm getting confused!  LOL!!!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	







SQWIB said:


> ...I will mix meats in gumbos and such but that's a whole different ball game.... or is it


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## eman (Aug 21, 2010)

When i make a jambalaya i throw the sausage in the pot to get some grease then i cook the chicken in the same pot w/ the sausage then i add any seasoning meats. tasso , andoullie etc.'

 Ten the onions, celery ,bellpepper ,jalapenos cook till the veggies are done then rice and water

 same w/ my gumbo if i'm doing chicken and sausage gumbo.


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## bbally (Aug 21, 2010)

Abigail4476 said:


> I did think about gumbo when reading this thread, BUT with gumbo--I always cook my chicken first, reserving the broth; cool and debone--get my other ingredients going, then add it back to the pot when I add in the andouille, and simmer them together.  So technically, even in gumbo, I guess I'm still cooking the meats separately...sort of--because the chicken is cooked completely before I put everything else in.  Is that correct?  Or is that cross-contaminating somehow?  I don't know...I think I'm getting confused!  LOL!!!


You doing fine.

(2) _Except when combined as ingredients_, separating types of raw animal foods from each other such as beef, fish, lamb, pork, and poultry during storage, preparation, holding, and display by:

The first line to the comma takes care of what you are doing.


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## stircrazy (Aug 23, 2010)

bbally said:


> You doing fine.
> 
> (2) _Except when combined as ingredients_, separating types of raw animal foods from each other such as beef, fish, lamb, pork, and poultry during storage, preparation, holding, and display by:
> 
> The first line to the comma takes care of what you are doing.


but doesent this cover the original topic of this post also?  she is combining ingredients, isn't she?

I find it funny that this went on for 4 pages when all that had to be said is that she needs to make sure that the whole dish is cooked to a min of 165 degrees and it will be fine.

Steve


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## chefrob (Aug 23, 2010)

stircrazy said:


> I find it funny that this went on for 4 pages when all that had to be said is that she needs to make sure that the whole dish is cooked to a min of 165 degrees and it will be fine.
> 
> Steve





> She would be correct if she said the beef can be marinated with the chicken if it is cooked to poultry temperatures.


 bob did say this on page 2 or 3...................as i did a bit later.


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## sqwib (Aug 24, 2010)

AK1 said:


> You may agree with it but you would be wrong in this case.
> 
> Because you're cooking two different whole cuts of meat, the internal temperature is not important. What is important is the external temperature. As long as that meets the USDA guidelines you're good to go.


I don't understand.

I was under the impression that if 2 different cuts of meat were cooked together, that you would need to cook both meats to an INTERNAL safe temperature of the meat requiring the higher temp.


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## chefrob (Aug 24, 2010)

i didnt get that one either...............


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

SQWIB said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> I was under the impression that if 2 different cuts of meat were cooked together, that you would need to cook both meats to an INTERNAL safe temperature of the meat requiring the higher temp.


I haven't seen the show, but based on the OP this is my way of thinking.

Because you have whole pieces of meat, even though they're in the same brine any cross contamination would only occur on the surface of the meat. Therefore, once the meat was taken out of the brine and cooked, it is effectively being cooked separately, and cooking temperatures at the surface would be high enough to kill any bacteria. Also, given that the marinade contains citrus juice which is highly acidic, that would help in eliminating surface bacteria, and would also start "cooking" the meat due to chemical reactions.

Also, remember that the beef she was using is flank steak; a cut of beef that needs the marinating to cook properly. If that recipe was made with beef tenderloin, strip loin, sirloin, I may feel different about it.


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## chefrob (Aug 24, 2010)

ak1 - i am by no means a biochemist but it seems to me if the brine would penetrate the beef, why wouldn't the bacteria as well? on another note from a cooking point of view, i would never start the cooking of the beef along with the chicken due to the fact that the beef would be more tough then at a lower temp. for the best possible outcome for quality's sake, i would marinate my meats separately no matter what they were (fish,shrimp,chix, pork, etc) and introduce them into the pan according to which one takes the longest to cook. by this method you can still have a 130 beef if it was marinated by itself thus producing the best possible product. i just don't see an advantage to marinating different types of meats in the same container form a safety as well as a product quality point of view in a saute environment. now if yer just going to stew everything in a pot for a long period of time then that is another scenario........just hold off on the shellfish....i hate overdone shrimp!


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

@chefRob.

From what I understand, the reason that the brine penetrates the meat, is because it reacts on a molecular level, it's a chemical thing.  Whereas bacteria are multicelled organisms that colonize the surface if the environment is suitable Of course the bacteria may release certain chemicals that do react with the meat, thereby promoting growth of the colony, but essentially it's two different things happening independently. Depending on how acidic the brine is, the vast majority of bacteria cannot survive, so at that point it becomes irrelevant what meats are combined, because of the environment.


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## chefrob (Aug 24, 2010)

AK1 said:


> @chefRob.
> 
> From what I understand, the reason that the brine penetrates the meat, is because it reacts on a molecular level, it's a chemical thing.  Whereas bacteria are multicelled organisms that colonize the surface if the environment is suitable Of course the bacteria may release certain chemicals that do react with the meat, thereby promoting growth of the colony, but essentially it's two different things happening independently. Depending on how acidic the brine is, the vast majority of bacteria cannot survive, so at that point it becomes irrelevant what meats are combined, because of the environment.


something tells me that if i said that to my local inspector he would then proceed to tear my kitchen apart looking for potential hazzards ant then asking me to explain the whole process from start to finish.

also this point is still not addressed.......


> Because you're cooking two different whole cuts of meat, the internal temperature is not important.


 i do think you ment the temps are important, they just don't have to be at the higher temp. i still don't think this will fly with the health department.


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

chefrob said:


> something tells me that if i said that to my local inspector he would then proceed to tear my kitchen apart looking for potential hazzards ant then asking me to explain the whole process from start to finish.
> 
> also this point is still not addressed.......
> 
> i do think you ment the temps are important, they just don't have to be at the higher temp. i still don't think this will fly with the health department.


You're right, the temps are important as far as the finished meat is concerned. I thought I made it obvious, but perhaps not. 

Whether it would pass Health Department inspectors is another issue IMO. Those folks have to look whether regulations are being followed or not. They do not have the option of deciding whether things are OK or not, but only whether regulations are being followed.

I'm guessing by your posts that you have a restaurant that serves the public. If that's the case then we have different issues. You have to follow certain rules, whereas I, as one who cooks at home, have the option to follow or not based on various parameters.


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## chefrob (Aug 24, 2010)

i thought it was obvious but i just wanted to close that part for further discussion in this thread........you know it would be resurrected sooner or later by someone.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






as for the health inspector.......your right. on your last post.......your right again. see, i'm not here to argue just for the sake of arguing. i will state what i think and why, but just to clarify i ususally do the same at work as i do at home and i can gaurentee i have never gotten anyone sick in 25+ yrs of cooking profesionally and 30+ at home (i started early). also i want to be clear......my favorite way to eat eggs are over easy and i love a 120 deg prime rib cut from the center of the roast. the thing is, i pretty much only trust me to do it.


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

chefrob said:


> i thought it was obvious but i just wanted to close that part for further discussion in this thread........you know it would be resurrected sooner or later by someone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can I come to your place? You're a man after my own heart! A nice rare prime rib is one of the great pleasures IMO.


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## chefrob (Aug 24, 2010)

absolutely..........it just might have to be at my house.


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

chefrob said:


> absolutely..........it just might have to be at my house.


Damn! Now you got me thinkin' about Prime Rib for supper tomorrow night. I guess I'll be going to the butcher in the morning


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