# New Guy with an Old question LOL



## Lambo-az (Oct 13, 2020)

Hey Ya'll!

New guy, Matt, here in AZ. Been lurking and learning for a while here, and finally decided to post so I can ask a question, I imagine you are tired of answering LOL

I have a Dyna Glo Electric smoker and have done Ribs, Chicken, and Butt, and some good, some bad, definitely not all home runs! Only been smoking for about 2 months, but smoke pretty frequently, so I have quite a few smokes under my belt in that short time.

I am considering moving on to an off-set, but I really want to master electric first. My thinking ( though wrong maybe ) is, if you cant handle electric, you wont be able to handle Off-set stick burner. Just my .02

On to my question. I do Baby Back quite often, and have done 2-2-1, 3-2-1, 4-1-1. I have done with and without water pan. Always a mix of Apple and Peach wood, have done chips and chunks. Alwasys in the supplied chip pan directly on the coil. Usually @225, have done a bit higher a few times, ~240.

None of these combos have produced quality bark. NONE. Some good food, great flavor, and moist, but not a bit of bark to speak of. I have searched a ton of posts here and none have really helped solve my issue.

I do have a pellet tube en route from Amazon, and temp probes, so I can ensure my temps are solid. What the F else can I do? LOL

Thank you all in advance for your help and sharing your smoke knowledge with those of us who just dont know!


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## JLeonard (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome aboard from Mississippi! Cant really help ya with your question. But I cook on propane smoker and have been looking at an offset myself.
Jim


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## smokerjim (Oct 13, 2020)

welcome to smf, not familiar with your smoker but be sure to leave your vent open, are you using a rub, do you wrap. when i do ribs or anything for that matter i don't wrap, i don't spritz. i smoke my ribs around 225 until they are done usually 6-7 hours.


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## Lambo-az (Oct 13, 2020)

Thanks SmokerJim!

This is my smoker below. Dyna Glo digital electric smoker. 

My smoker has an exhaust chimney but no inlet vent so to speak. I have thought about leaving the chip delivery door open to facilitate more air flow, but I usually do wrap, almost universally. I use a rub if my own concoction, but pretty basic. Brown sugar, salt, pepper, paprika, garlic. Nothing ground breaking.

Maybe with a smoke tube and some better air flow I can make some progress


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## zwiller (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome!  The MES requires help to achieve bark on things as it does not move much air compared to a stick burner.  Meat must be dry when going into the smoker.  I actually do an overnight uncovered rest or fan the meat 30m or so.  This is called a pellicle and there is more info if you search for it.  However, with ribs I always sear on a hot grill after smoking so that is another way to get bark on ribs.


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## thirdeye (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome aboard.  

I'm not sure I agree about mastering one kind of  smoker (or grill) before moving to a different one.  But I am sure  it would be a lively conversation when trying to rank smokers in order and which smoker is at the top of the list.   The two primary goals of cooking good barbecue are taste (flavor) and doneness (tenderness).  I believe that the perfect doneness is more important than a great flavor.  And when you can consistently nail both you you are on the road to mastering barbecue.    Now.... there are many obstacles along the way....., picking the right meat, using seasonings correctly, fire and smoke management, type of cooker etc.  So, I guess what I'm saying is, there are a lot of different skills you need to learn in order to cook good barbecue.

There is an old saying, "it's the cook, not the cooker", so I'm curious why you are considering an offset smoker, and would you be using charcoal or all wood, or a combination? 

Here is a good example of where I'm headed.  The first Memphis In May World Championship Barbecue Contest, was held in a dirt parking lot and had 15 or 20 teams.   Bessie Cathy, the first champion, won a $1,000.  She cooked on a home made horizontal drum, and cover your eyes..... she used FOIL too!  The moral of the story was she obviously knew enough about tenderness and flavor to wow the judges.


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## zwiller (Oct 13, 2020)

thirdeye
 I have been meaning to ask you this for some time and it appears to be on topic here.  Bark on ribs is actually a fault per KCBS CBC, right?  All those comp boxes I see have no bark.  I went looking for judging notes a few times but have never been able to find any.  Maybe only available to members?


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## Lambo-az (Oct 13, 2020)

That's a great story! I too have heard it's the cook not the smoker! I agree, 99.99%. I think you could argue that real indirect heat from an offset is definitely a "truer" ( for lack of a better term) way of smoking, and there are some things an electric just won't do. I would run lump and wood in mine, if I had one. But this conversation is what leads me to say I should master electric first. I know I can get better food out of an electric than I currently do. So IMO, I should not be trying to get better food by switching smokers, I should learn how to smoke lol.

I definitely agree, there are many many nuances to smoking meat. There is probably an argument for learning them on any and every smoker, but love the one you got right? Lol I want to learn all of them, and get tender AND flavorful food. I know there is an Insane amount of knowledge here on this forum, knowledge I lack, so I am here to ask and learn, and let you all tell me that all of my assumptions are wrong!


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## noboundaries (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome aboard from NorCal, and for asking questions. 

I'm not an electric smoker guy, but the meat will have a softer bark anytime you wrap anything as indicated above. You can absolutely smoke ribs from start to finish without wrapping the meat to get a better bark. Lots of us do. Give that a try, but it won't be the same as an offset, cabinet, or bullet smoker. And there's nothing magical about 225F chamber temp. Feel free to smoke at 250F, 275F, 240F, whichever you want. The only thing that will change is the clock. Higher temp equals faster time to finish.

Now, as far as moving from an electric to an offset. That's kind of like moving from an Uber ride to a Formula One racer. Offsets are the most challenging smokers. Electrics and pellets are the easiest. Cabinets, verticals, Kettles, and bullets are between electrics/pellets and offsets. 

Every smoker has a learning curve. Once you move away from electrics and pellets, you must learn chamber temp control with fuel load and airflow. Kettles and bullet smokers are easy temp control teachers that don't cost a small fortune.  Personally, if given a choice between a cheap offset or a Kettle or bullet, I'd go Kettle or bullet because the smoked meat would be almost just as good as an offset without the frustration. 

If money is no concern, buy an insulated cabinet smoker or a reverse flow offset. You'll still have to learn fuel management and airflow control, but will have one impressive smoker!

I'm a Kettle and bullet guy, BTW. I'd love a cabinet, but the meat coming out of my Kettle and bullet (Weber Smokey Mountain) is so good I can't justify the cost of the upgrade.


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## smokerjim (Oct 13, 2020)

Lambo-az said:


> but I usually do wrap, almost universally.


next time ya do some ribs try doing 1/2 unwrapped and see if that helps and see which way ya like better.


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## MJB05615 (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome from Ga.  I have been using a Masterbuilt electric for 15 years.  Switched to a Pellet for about a year, then switched right back to the electric.  For years I was able to get the food good, not great.  I tried a lot of different things, nothing made a huge difference.  Then I joined this forum after about 12 years of smoking meats.  From the info I got here from the members, I have gotten my food way up in taste , tenderness, etc.  To a level I never thought possible.  The main thing I did was stopped putting water in the water pan, I just use it as a drip pan covered in foil.  And leaving the top vent open at all times.  Started using the AMNPS tube and took the chip loader out to allow more airflow.  If any of these things are similar to your Smoker, you may want to try that.


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## sawhorseray (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome from Gilbert, AZ! Depending of where you are located in AZ you will be presented with some conditions that most others seldom face. I have a high quality offset BBQ smoker, commercial grade electric, and a Weber kettle outfitted with a SnS and a Vortex, I use them all year round. I consider electric and pellet smokers to be equal, there's nothing easier to use except maybe your kitchen oven. If you're thinking of getting an offset, which I personally believe to put out the best BBQ, there are a lot of things to take into consideration. I'm old and retired, my house has a covered patio with ceiling fans, and we have a swimming pool, next spring we're installing misters around the patio. When you are smoking on a offset they require attention for heat control, feeding splits, you will be outside a* LOT. *When it's 112º as it was here most of the summer you'd best have some way of staying cool as possible, and beers alone will not suffice, smoking a brisket or porbutt I'll dip in the pool a half dozen times a day. You say you've been smoking meat for a couple of months and are ready to move up, I think that's great! If you are thinking offset BBQ smoker start thinking high quality, the cheapo's will be almost impossible to maintain consistent temps and heat control in the summer, you're looking at $1500 for starters. I would recommend getting a WSM, it won't break the bank while you are learning heat control where we live, and you'll be pounding out some darned fine Q. Oh, and if you live in a part of the state where it's not all as hot as it gets here in Gilbert, my recommendation remains the same, WSM. RAY


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## kruizer (Oct 13, 2020)

Welcome to SMF from Minnesota.


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## thirdeye (Oct 13, 2020)

zwiller said:


> thirdeye
> I have been meaning to ask you this for some time and it appears to be on topic here.  Bark on ribs is actually a fault per KCBS CBC, right?  All those comp boxes I see have no bark.  I went looking for judging notes a few times but have never been able to find any.  Maybe only available to members?



KCBS scoring is for the most part is objective, especially in the Appearance and Taste criteria. There is some 'direction' and examples given for the Tenderness criteria, and it relates to moistness and if a meat is "properly" cooked.  In KCBS, bark, or lack of bark on ribs, is not a "fault" that would be scored down for Appearance.  If, for example,  a cook elects to turn in ribs that are Memphis dry style, that is acceptable. Grate marks would also be acceptable.  Now, if the bark (or bark/sauce combination) does not have a pleasant flavor, a judge's score in Taste may reflect that. The only guidance given to judges on rib scoring is:

_(Ribs) ...You first must determine how well it was cooked. When eating a properly cooked rib, the meat should come off the bone with very little effort and only when you bite into it should the meat be removed. If the meat falls off the entire bone while taking a bite that is a good indication it is overcooked. When overcooked, the meat has a tendency to be mushy with little or no texture. Usually, when you take a bite out of a well-smoked rib that is properly cooked, the exposed bone will have a tendency to dry almost at once. Ribs should be moist, have a good flavor and may be presented with or without sauce._

This would be an example of a non-sauced rib that meets the requirements  of the bite itself. 






KCBS remodeled their website and some of the public links to older information were removed.  The "Rules" do contain a lot of information, but they don't cover the specific judging information that is presented in the class, and contained in the Judge Handbook.  That information has got to be available online because cooks all know it, and cooks do not have to be a KCBS member, although many are.  In fact a lot of cooks are also Certified Judges.


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## Lambo-az (Oct 13, 2020)

sawhorseray said:


> Welcome from Gilbert, AZ! Depending of where you are located in AZ you will be presented with some conditions that most others seldom face. I have a high quality offset BBQ smoker, commercial grade electric, and a Weber kettle outfitted with a SnS and a Vortex, I use them all year round. I consider electric and pellet smokers to be equal, there's nothing easier to use except maybe your kitchen oven. If you're thinking of getting an offset, which I personally believe to put out the best BBQ, there are a lot of things to take into consideration. I'm old and retired, my house has a covered patio with ceiling fans, and we have a swimming pool, next spring we're installing misters around the patio. When you are smoking on a offset they require attention for heat control, feeding splits, you will be outside a* LOT. *When it's 112º as it was here most of the summer you'd best have some way of staying cool as possible, and beers alone will not suffice, smoking a brisket or porbutt I'll dip in the pool a hal dozen times a day. You say you've been smoking meat for a couple of months and are ready to move up, I think that's great! If you are thinking offset BBQ smoker start thinking high quality, the cheapo's will be almost impossible to maintain consistent temps and heat control in the summer, you're looking at $1500 for starters. I would recommend getting a WSM, it won't break the bank while you are learning heat control where we live, and you'll be pounding out some darned fine Q. Oh, and if you live in a part of the state where it's not all as hot as it gets here in Gilbert, my recommendation remains the same, WSM. RAY




Thanks Ray!! I did consider that, I am in Mesa, and I KNOW I wont work a fire in mid-August, its already miserable. I work from home so I have the time, but not the pool to jump into LOL. 

I dont think I am ready to move up, I just WANT to, but I don't know if I am ready. Thats why I want REALLY good Q out of this electric first. Learn the principles of smoking, THEN worry about the smoker upgrade.  Price isn't really an issue, I bought a cheap electric because I did not know that I would love it as much as I do, or I would have bought up to start, but to your point, I have heard nothing but amazing things about WSM, so that may be my next step, it's a bit more forgiving in this weather, and with my learning curve.


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## thirdeye (Oct 13, 2020)

Lambo-az said:


> That's a great story! I too have heard it's the cook not the smoker! I agree, 99.99%. I think you could argue that real indirect heat from an offset is definitely a "truer" ( for lack of a better term) way of smoking, and there are some things an electric just won't do. I would run lump and wood in mine, if I had one. *But this conversation is what leads me to say I should master electric first. I know I can get better food out of an electric than I currently do.* So IMO, I should not be trying to get better food by switching smokers, I should learn how to smoke lol.
> 
> I definitely agree, there are many many nuances to smoking meat. There is probably an argument for learning them on any and every smoker, but love the one you got right? Lol I want to learn all of them, and get tender AND flavorful food. I know there is an Insane amount of knowledge here on this forum, knowledge I lack, so I am here to ask and learn, and let you all tell me that all of my assumptions are wrong!



Let's take smoke out of the equation for a minute.  Using whatever spices, rubs, slathers, or sauces, and any pan, rack, roaster or combination at your disposal.... can you *cook *moist, tender and savory ribs, chicken or a roast in your oven?  If you can do that, you can *cook* the same thing in a smoker.   Granted, different smokers (along with your choice of fuel and/or flavor wood) impart another layer of flavor to the finished product...., but the meat still goes in raw, gets *cooked*, and comes out ready to enjoy. 

Smokers are ovens, but with different heat sources.  The design affects the airflow.  Sort of  like "Bake" and "Convection" on your oven are different.   But instead of just moving hot air around, a smoker moves scented hot air around.


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## Lambo-az (Oct 13, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> Let's take smoke out of the equation for a minute.  Using whatever spices, rubs, slathers, or sauces, and any pan, rack, roaster or combination at your disposal.... can you *cook *moist, tender and savory ribs, chicken or a roast in your oven?  If you can do that, you can *cook* the same thing in a smoker.   Granted, different smokers (along with your choice of fuel and/or flavor wood) impart another layer of flavor to the finished product...., but the meat still goes in raw, gets *cooked*, and comes out ready to enjoy.
> 
> Smokers are ovens, but with different heat sources.  The design affects the airflow.  Sort of  like "Bake" and "Convection" on your oven are different.   But instead of just moving hot air around, a smoker moves scented hot air around.


Great points!


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## mike243 (Oct 14, 2020)

Bark is dried out meat and dried out rub, not always a good thing imo,  bark isn't needed to make great tasting food, kind of like a smoke ring lol


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## sawhorseray (Oct 14, 2020)

Lambo-az said:


> Thanks Ray!! I did consider that, I am in Mesa, and I KNOW I wont work a fire in mid-August, its already miserable. I work from home so I have the time, but not the pool to jump into LOL. I dont think I am ready to move up, I just WANT to, but I don't know if I am ready. Thats why I want REALLY good Q out of this electric first. Learn the principles of smoking, THEN worry about the smoker upgrade.  Price isn't really an issue, I bought a cheap electric because I did not know that I would love it as much as I do, or I would have bought up to start, but to your point, I have heard nothing but amazing things about WSM, so that may be my next step, it's a bit more forgiving in this weather, and with my learning curve.



Hey Lambo, as you live in Mesa you might want to check these guys out for equipment, they have everything you'll ever need and a lot of stuff you can only dream about. It's not a discount place but they are nice folks to deal with , prices are fair. I bought my SQ36 from the Tempe location. RAY









						Meadow Creek SQ36
					





					www.bbqislandinc.com


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## SecondHandSmoker (Oct 14, 2020)

Looks like I am late to the party.

Welcome aboard from SE Arizona.

You got some great advice above from everyone.

It does sound like you have an air flow issue with that particular smoker.
Electric smokers are tight to begin with so why Dyna Glo didn't add an intake with damper control is a mystery.
If you don't want to drill holes in the smoker, then you are on the right track about leaving the chip loader open a couple of inches.
Obviously, it will be a trial and error process until you find the sweet spot.

As far as some other things to try for better bark formation, I noticed you're using brown sugar in your rub.  Try switching that out with turbinado sugar AKA "sugar in the raw".
You don't mention if you're using a binder like mustard to make your rub stick on the ribs. How much rub are you applying?  Thicker is not always better.
You could also try mopping or spritzing with a mix of ACV and apple juice during the unwrapped phase of the smoke.  As mentioned above, wrapping produces a soft bark.
So, you could try not wrapping at all.  We call this going "nekkid".
The neighbors won't be offended either.

You don't mention if you are using a separate digital thermometer set up to monitor the actual chamber temp.  If you are, good.  If you aren't, then you should get one.

As for smoking during the summer up there in the valley, I don't envy you and Ray one bit. 
After living up there for 50 years, I finally bailed!  And yes, a pool helps even when the water feels like a warm bath.

You could always get yourself one of these for your patio if/when you decide on an offset or WSM.





The cat is optional, of course.


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## Lambo-az (Oct 14, 2020)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> Looks like I am late to the party.
> 
> Welcome aboard from SE Arizona.
> 
> ...


Hey!! Lucky duck, getting out of the Valley is on my bucket list LOL

I have gotten fantastic help on this forum, so I am going into my next smoke with a plan and confident.

I got a thermometer to get accurate temps, it was delivered this morning, so I did a test burn and found my digital built into the smoker is off about 25 from top rack temps. Thats a huge difference! I am also going to try the chip door trick, and see if that works to increase flow, it does seem choked up a but. I think that will help.

As far as binder, I have tried a few things, mustard, used ghost pepper sauce once ( Worked wonderfully! )and I have done without. Done see much bark difference but definitely flavor differences. I think I use minimal rub but I have no real reference point so I could be wrong. Maybe I will try some variations on that as well.

I have thought about spritzing and not rubbing, but I have some weird aversion to opening the smoker to do so. Probably a newb thing, but I tend to not want to open the smoker to do so. I will have to give that a try, especially with probes in place,  I can really gauge what effect the opening has on my temps. I am definitely going to go nekkid next smoke. I have wrapped pretty much everything I have ever smoked, so I need to try something new and see what comes out of it,


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## Jonok (Oct 14, 2020)

Turbinado sugar is a game changer.  It melts and carmelizes, but if you do it right, does not burn.  I use a double dose in my brisket rub (relative to the amount of sugar in my regular pork butt rub) and when I wrap at around 140, I get a nice sweet-hot crusty bark that isn’t burnt, but stands up to a subsequent wrapped cook to butter-tender, and a 5 hour rest to re-absorb the juicy goodness.


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## SecondHandSmoker (Oct 14, 2020)

Lambo-az said:


> Hey!! Lucky duck, getting out of the Valley is on my bucket list LOL
> 
> I have gotten fantastic help on this forum, so I am going into my next smoke with a plan and confident.
> 
> ...



Aww, come on man.  I stuck it out for 50 years.  You can too! 
Seriously, when my wife and I retired, we were wanting a change.  The valley had grown too large and had become too fast paced for our liking anymore.  We don't miss it one bit.

Good call on getting the separate thermo set up. Now you're no longer flying blind. 
You will find that when the smoker door is opened, the temp will drop and take several mintues to recover.  This is normal for any type of smoker.

The last couple of baby back smokes I've done, I have used what is known as the 3-1-1 method which produces more tug  or bite instead of fall of the bone type of ribs.  
The jury is still out on that. 



 zwiller
 touched on some very good techniques to try out as well.  If you don't have a grill, the oven broiler is a close second.  Just keep an eye on them. 

Keep experimenting and you'll hit it soon enough.


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