# Prague Powder #1



## jjp1991

I'm curing a 13 pound brisket in a 3 gallon brine to make a pastrami and using prague powder #1.   This my first time using the curing salt.  The brine called for about 2 and half cups of salt for the 3 gallons of water.  I substituted the curing salt which was about 14 oz.   I understand that the curing salt is primarily salt, over 90%, but is using this in what I have now learned is a disproportionate amount going to have a bad effect on the pastrami?


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## timberjet

That is way way way way too much. Sorry. 1 tsp per 5 pounds of meat. Cure is poison and that meat is toast with that much cure.


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## timberjet

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/making-bacon 3 oz would have been the correct amount of cure.


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## atomicsmoke

timberjet said:


> That is way way way way too much. Sorry. 1 tsp per 5 pounds of meat. Cure is poison and that meat is toast with that much cure.


What he said.


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## jjp1991

Thanks.  I appreciate the response.  I found additional info at the link below which clarifies that the 1 tsp for 5 lb is for a dry cure and that for a brine 4 oz per gallon is recommended.  Since I'm using 3 gallons, I should be okay.  Let me know if you think otherwise.  Here is the link to the info. 

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing


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## timberjet

I have only ever used pops brine which I provided the link to. Lots of us on this website use that one. It struck me kind of hard that your brine is using 4 times as much cure number 1. After reading that great article by the way, thanks. I see that 4 oz is the max. Interested to see the results. His full strength brine is 1 oz per gallon.


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## jjp1991

Thanks.  I also checked the label on the curing salt and it did recommend a 24lb/100gallon mix for a 10% pump for injection which would translate to about 3/4 lb, or 12 oz, per 3 gallons.  Adding a bit more water to the brine just to be safe.  Thanks again for the follow-up.


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## jjp1991

BTW, don't see the link to pops brine.  Can you send?


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## diggingdogfarm

jjp1991,

Where did you get the "curing salt" and what are the ingredients on the label???






=Martin=


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## timberjet

jjp1991 said:


> Thanks.  I also checked the label on the curing salt and it did recommend a 24lb/100gallon mix for a 10% pump for injection which would translate to about 3/4 lb, or 12 oz, per gallon.  Adding a bit more water to the brine just to be safe.  Thanks again for the follow-up.


http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/making-bacon

Full Strength Curing Brine

1 Gallon clean, cold, potable water

1 cup plain (non-iodized) regular table salt

1 cup sugar

1 cup brown sugar

1 oz. (heaping tablespoon) of cure #1 curing salt


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## jjp1991

Here's the link to the product on Amazon.


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## jjp1991

Thanks


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> jjp1991,
> 
> Where did you get the "curing salt" and what are the ingredients on the label???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =Martin=



Here's the link on Amazon.


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## diggingdogfarm

Okay, you said that you used 14 ounces  for 3 gallons...how do you know that for sure?
Did you weigh it?






=Martin=


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Okay, you said that you used 14 ounces for 3 gallons...how do you know that for sure?
> Did you weigh it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =Martin=


It was a 14 oz bag and I measured 3 gallons of water.


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## diggingdogfarm

What else did you put in the brine?


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## wade

Hi JJP

A quick calculation of your brine strength...

14 ozs of cure = 396 grams

3 US gallons = 11.35 litres

At 6.25% Nitrite the amount in the cure = 396 x 0.0625 = 24.75 grams of Nitrite in 11.35 litres = 2.152 grams per litre


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## diggingdogfarm

Wade said:


> Hi JJP
> 
> A quick calculation of your brine strength...
> 
> 14 ozs of cure = 396 grams
> 3 US gallons = 11.35 litres
> 
> At 6.25% Nitrite the amount in the cure = 396 x 0.0625 = 24.75 grams of Nitrite in 11.35 litres = 2.152 grams per litre
> 
> 2.152 grams = 2152 mg per litre = 2152 Ppm
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...prague-salt-1-or-2-for-curing/40#post_1278883
> 
> As the maximum permitted ingoing Nitrite Ppm in the bacon brine is 120 Ppm your brine is nearly 20 times too strong (17.93 x)



Sorry, but that's not the correct way to calculate an immersion brine with 10% pick-up and we need to know ALL the ingredients (and their weights) that went into the brine.


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## wade

Yes - That is why I immediately retracted it after posting. You must have replied within the minute I took to take it off. I realised I had not taken the weight of everything into account


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## atomicsmoke

Who came with this 10% pickup ratio? I saw it in a lot of places. If that's how much nitrite the meat picks up how do weak brines like pop's still work?


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> What else did you put in the brine?


I used this recipe and substituted cure #1 where it called for salt. 

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/beef-pastrami-recipe2.html


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## jjp1991

atomicsmoke said:


> Who came with this 10% pickup ratio? I saw it in a lot of places. If that's how much nitrite the meat picks up how do weak brines like pop's still work?


Check out this link.  It includes the text below that I've pasted in.  Based on this my 3.5 gallon brine using 14oz of cure #1 has 4oz/gallon which is below the maximum in the table, or 1lb vs 1.08lbs for a comparable 4 gallon brine which is also calculated in the text below.  

Let me know what you think.  Thx

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing

*Immersed, Pumped and Massaged Products*  such as hams, poultry breasts, corned beef. Here, it is much harder to come up with a universal formula as there are so many variables that have to be determined first. The main factor is to determine % pump when injecting the meat with a syringe or % pick-up when immersing meat in a curing solution. We will calculate the formula for 1 gallon of water, Cure #1 and 10% pick-up gain. Then the formula can be multiplied or divided to accommodate different amounts of meat. 10% pump or 10% pick-up mean that the cured meat should absorb 10% of the brine in relation to its original weight. For immersion, pumped or massaged products, the maximum in-going nitrite limit is 200 ppm and that corresponds to adding 4.2 oz of Cure #1 to 1 gallon of water.

AmountCure #1 in ouncesCure #1 in gramsCure #1 in teaspoons1 gallon (8.33 lbs) of water4.212020 (6 Tbs)
This is a very small amount of brine and if you want to cure a large turkey you will need to increase the volume. Just multiply it by a factor of 4 and you will have 4 gallons of water and 1.08 lbs. of Cure #1. The following is the safe formula for immersed products and very easy to measure: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1. In the above formula at 10% pick-up the nitrite limit is 150 ppm which is plenty. Keep in mind that adding 1 lb. of Cure #1 to 5 gallons of water will give you 4.2% salt by weight and that corresponds to only 16 degrees brine (slightly higher than sea water). If we add an additional 2 lbs. of salt we will get: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1, 2 lbs. of salt and that will give us a 25 degree solution which is great for poultry.


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## jjp1991

atomicsmoke said:


> Who came with this 10% pickup ratio? I saw it in a lot of places. If that's how much nitrite the meat picks up how do weak brines like pop's still work?


Pops recipe includes salt and cure#1.  For the salt, I substituted cure#1, which is over 90% salt.  The nominal difference is in the amount of nitrate.  Looks like the bigger difference is the cost.  I would have saved money by following pops. Live and learn. 

Let me know what you think.


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## diggingdogfarm

If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.

14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?
2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?
No other salt...correct?


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.
> 
> 14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?
> 2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?
> No other salt...correct?


3.5 gallons water

2 5/8 brown sugar

14 oz cure#1

3/4 cup of salt (in addition to the cure since the recipe called for 2 5/8 cups of salt for 3.5 gallons and the cure was less than two cups)

thanks


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## diggingdogfarm

Okay, here's how an immersion brine is checked for ingoing nitrite (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)

Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite

14 ounces of cure #1...that's 397 grams.
3.5 gallons of water, that's 13249 grams
2-5/8 cups brown sugar...that's ~630 grams
3/4 cup of salt... that's ~180 grams salt.

Weight of the Nitrite: 397 grams of Cure #1 x 6.25%=. 24.8 grams Nitrite
Total Weight of the Brine=14456 grams

At 10% Pick-Up....
24.8 x 10% x 1,000,000=2480000
2480000÷14456=*171.55 PPM* Nitrite


At 10% pick-up, it's  within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.








jjp1991 said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.
> 
> 
> 14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?
> 
> 2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?
> 
> No other salt...correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 3.5 gallons water
> 
> 2 5/8 brown sugar
> 14 oz cure#1
> 3/4 cup of salt (in addition to the cure since the recipe called for 2 5/8 cups of salt for 3.5 gallons and the cure was less than two cups)
> 
> thanks
Click to expand...


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Okay, here's how an immersion brine is checked for safety in terms of nitrite level (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)
> 
> Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite
> 
> 14 ounces of cure #1...that's 397 grams.
> 3.5 gallons of water, that's 13249 grams
> 2-5/8 cups brown sugar...that's ~630 grams
> 3/4 cup of salt... that's ~180 grams salt.
> 
> Weight of the Nitrite: 397 grams of Cure #1 x 6.25%=. 24.8 grams Nitrite
> Total Weight of the Brine=14456 grams
> 
> At 10% Pick-Up....
> 24.8 x 10% x 1,000,000=2480000
> 2480000÷14456=*171.55 PPM* Nitrite
> 
> 
> At 10% pick-up, it's within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.


Great.  Thanks.  I really appreciate the info and the formula.  Hopefully the pastrami tastes good too!


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## atomicsmoke

jjp1991 said:


> Pops recipe includes salt and cure#1.  For the salt, I substituted cure#1, which is over 90% salt.  The nominal difference is in the amount of nitrate.  Looks like the bigger difference is the cost.  I would have saved money by following pops. Live and learn.
> 
> Let me know what you think.


You can't replace salt with cure#1 1:1.


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## atomicsmoke

Diggingdogfarm,

Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?

We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?


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## diggingdogfarm

Oh boy, here we go!!! :biggrin:


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## diggingdogfarm

I'll let Pops answer questions about his brine.


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## timberjet

I am glad it fell within safety limits. I just didn't want anyone sick. Thanks Martin for the Info. I think I will stick with pops brine though.


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## diggingdogfarm

atomicsmoke said:


> Diggingdogfarm,
> 
> Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?
> 
> We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?





What makes you think that one of them is wrong and in what way?


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## jjp1991

atomicsmoke said:


> Diggingdogfarm,
> 
> Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?
> 
> We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?


This is from pops recipe. It notes that the maximum is ~4 oz per gallon.  His recipe just uses a lesser amount.  Hope this helps.  

First, let me make an important distinction:  the one "special" ingredient you use is a curing salt.  This is 93.75% plain salt, and 6.25% sodium nitrite. You are allowed a maximum of 3.84 oz. of curing salt per gallon of brine by USDA Standards..  I use 1 oz. per gallon, well under maximum strength.  When I say "full strength" brine i mean to my standard of 1 oz./gallon, not maximum strength.  My dad tested and tested his brine to find out what would work to get the job done but not to over-cure the meat.  He found a 1 oz/gal. mix was more than sufficient with a longer curing time to cure the meat.  This provides more flexibility in curing, you can leave any product up to 45 days in the brine safely, and don't risk over-curing anything which can be harmful to deadly.


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## diggingdogfarm

Before this thread gets completely out-of-hand.....as I said above...if you want to accurately determine the
ingoing amount of nitrite (that's what's important)  in an immersion cured product...you must use the formula above.
You can apply the formula to ANY immersion brine.


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> What makes you think that one of them is wrong and in what way?


One uses 1tbs (20 something grams) of cure per gallon the other one uses 130g (14oz/3).


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## diggingdogfarm

There are countless brines that are all over the place in terms of ingredients.

What's your point?


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> There are countless brines that are all over the place in terms of ingredients.
> 
> What's your point?



Your calculations show 172ppm meat nitrite level for the cure the OP used. Pop's will give 120ppm meat nitrite level, about 30% less, yet it uses 6x less curing salt.


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## diggingdogfarm

Again, you need to use the formula above....the amount of  cure #1 per gallon tells you NOTHING in terms of *INGOING* nitrite.


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Again, you need to use the formula above....the amount of  cure #1 per gallon tells you NOTHING in terms of *INGOING* nitrite.


Yep...using that formula pops brine gives 27ppm, not 120. Yet I understand it made the G-men happy so it's got to be at 120ppm.

Your formula uses the 10% pickup "ratio". Where is that coming from?


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## diggingdogfarm

The 10% pick-up is just an average, actual pick-up may be more or less than that.


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## atomicsmoke

You bet it can. That's my point. Can it be 44%?


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## diggingdogfarm

No, not that much.
The only way to know for sure is to weight.

Just so there's no confusion and everyone understands....percent pick-up is the total amount of brine solution absorbed by
the cured product in relation weight.


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## atomicsmoke

If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?


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## jjp1991

atomicsmoke said:


> If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?


Appreciate the concern.  Here is another link that confirms that 4 oz per gallon is safe. 

http://www.sausagemaker.com/product..._Level_in_Brine_with_InstaCure_(Imperial).pdf

Also, take a looks at pops recipe again.  It agrees that ~4 oz is the max.


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## diggingdogfarm

Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.

That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.


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## diggingdogfarm

jjp1991 said:


> atomicsmoke said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the pickup is over 11.75% the nitrite level will exceed the 200ppm limit. Won't be wise the advise the OP his brine might be unsafe?
> 
> 
> 
> Appreciate the concern.  Here is another link that confirms that 4 oz per gallon is safe.
> 
> http://www.sausagemaker.com/product..._Level_in_Brine_with_InstaCure_(Imperial).pdf
> 
> Also, take a looks at pops recipe again.  It agrees that ~4 oz is the max.
Click to expand...


You're not understanding in-going nitrite, and neither does that SausageMaker, apparently.
There are serious errors in that PDF.

See this thread from a couple years ago... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137916/who-can-spot-the-errors

Again folks, only use the formula I posted above to calculate IN-GOING nitrite.


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## jjp1991

DiggingDogFarm said:


> You're not understanding in-going nitrite, and neither does that SausageMaker, apparently.
> There are serious errors in that PDF.
> 
> See this thread from a couple years ago... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137916/who-can-spot-the-errors
> 
> Again folks, only use the formula I posted above to calculate IN-GOING nitrite.


yes, this calculation does not take into consideration the total weight of the brine.  However, since the brine is actually heavier, when you add the sugar which dissolves, etc. the PPM goes down.  This is just a ballpark to show its still under 200 PPM.  

Have also cross checked against the USDA manual and come up with below the 200 PPM max. 

Method One
The first method assumes that the meat or poultry absorbs not more than the level of
nitrite in the cover pickle. Hence, the calculation for nitrite is based on the green weight
of the meat or poultry (as is the case with pumped products), but uses percent pick-up as
the percent pump. The percent pick-up is the total amount of cover pickle absorbed by
the meat or poultry. It is used in the calculation for immersion cured products in the same
way percent pump is used in the (previous) calculation for pumped products.
< Calculation Formula (using % pick-up)
(lb nitrite × % pick-up × 1,000,000)/lb pickle or brine = PPM

Page 22 http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf 

Again, appreciate your initial calculations.  Feeling pretty confident things will be alright.  Will post from the ER if they are not.


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## diggingdogfarm

In other words, they're not doing it correctly. which makes the PDF worthless.


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
> As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
> If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.
> 
> That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.


By a little bit? How do you know that? How do you know how thick is his brisket, how long he will brine it, temmperature, etc? If pops brine gives meat with 120ppm that is 44% pick up. 
So, yeah, much higher pick up is possible.

I guess safe recipe around here means you won't die if you eat this meat. You might get colon cancer later on but hey...will deal with that then.


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## diggingdogfarm

atomicsmoke said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unsafe or MAY, possibly, exceed the government limit (for commercial products) by a little bit?
> As I said above, the only way to know for sure is to weigh...I'm not going to guess one way or the other.
> If he knows the start weight of the meat he can check at any time.
> 
> That's why attention to detail and keeping good notes is good idea....for piece of mind, if no other reason.
> 
> 
> 
> By a little bit? How do you know that? How do you know how thick is his brisket, how long he will brine it, temmperature, etc? If pops brine gives meat with 120ppm that is 44% pick up.
> So, yeah, much higher pick up is possible.
> 
> I guess safe recipe around here means you won't die if you eat this meat. You might get colon cancer later on but hey...will deal with that then.
Click to expand...


:icon_eek:

Sorry, but you're just not understanding this.
I strongly recommend that you get a GOOD book and do some studying so that you don't worry yourself so much!!!!!


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## atomicsmoke

DiggingDogFarm said:


> :icon_eek:
> 
> Sorry, but you're just not understanding this.
> I strongly recommend that you get a GOOD book and do some studying so that you don't worry yourself so much!!!!!


Yeah...that's not it. Osmosis works the same whether I (or you) understand it or not.

You admited yourself you have no clue how much his nitrite level will be.


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## diggingdogfarm

atomicsmoke said:


> Yeah...that's not it. Osmosis works the same whether I (or you) understand it or not.



:head-wall: 

Again, PLEASE do some studying.




atomicsmoke said:


> You admited yourself you have no clue how much his nitrite level will be.



I knew early on that this thread was headed for the crapper.
I posted HOW to calculate IN-GOING nitrite...it's up to you or whoever to do the calculations for your particular situation....it's right there in black and white.
PLEASE read ALL that I posted above!
*It's also up to YOU to fully understand what you're doing when you cure meat and PLEASE don't advise others until you do!!!*


:wtf1:


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## atomicsmoke

Yet you advise others while admitting you cannot know the pickup ratio.


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## diggingdogfarm

That's why, TWICE, I said that the only way to know for SURE is to weigh.

I also said that 10% is an average...a common average. ....it's used VERY frequently.

It's mentioned at least 9 times in the Processing Inspectors' Calculations Manual.

Even the OP mentioned that "10% pump" is noted of the package of cure #1 that he has....the equation is the same....pump OR pick-up!


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## 99jaapie

Hi Diggin Dog Farm

Sorry, I am trying to get my head around all this. The calcualations here take into account the weight of the water, the sugar and the salt, and comes down to 171 ppm on 10% pickup.

I have been bumbling along adding weight of water PLUS meat using what I think is your calculator. My input is as follows

4 litres of water plus 2 kilos meat = 6 kilos.

Cure strength is 6.25% and I am looking for 156 ppm nitrite, 5% salt and 3% sugar.

My calculator says I need 14.98 gms cure, 285 gms additional salt and 180 grams of sugar.

Also, I pump the meat and then immerse in the brine for 5 days or more, after which I assume that the meat and brine would be in equilibrium and would then be safe.

Am I correct ? I can't seem to work it backwards and really would appreciate help, as here we dont get prague powder, but I have 2 curing powders, one at 0.9 % ( so 17.75 gms per kilo) and the other is at 6% (so for this one I jusrt use the prague powder measurements.

Help!


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## wade

I am not sure if DDF is online much these days or at all. The last time he posted was April last year and I know he was quite ill then.

It is not clear from above what you are trying to do.


> Sorry, I am trying to get my head around all this. The calculations here take into account the weight of the water, the sugar and the salt, and comes down to 171 ppm on 10% pickup.
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, I pump the meat and then immerse in the brine for 5 days or more, after which I assume that the meat and brine would be in equilibrium and would then be safe


The brine that you would use for pumping with the 10% pickup calculation and the one used for equilibrium brining are different. One is usually 10x stronger than the other.

The cure that you describe is fine for the equilibrium brining and you could either leave it immersed to reach equilibrium in the brine (5-14 days depending on the thickness of the meat) or you could inject and immerse if you are wanting it to cure faster - though this is not a common thing to do for bacon but can be if you are curing a larger meat joint or a bone in joint. With this brine method forget anything about a 10% pickup.

When calculating your brine with the 0.9% nitrite then for the 6 kg brine/meat you would need 105g cure (yes, 17.5g / kg) and 195g Salt

With the 6% nitrite then for the 6 kg brine/meat you would need 15.8g cure and 284g Salt

Are you certain that you want 5% salt? That will be quite salty for most peoples tastes.


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## wade

Bare in mind though that curing is not an exact science, and although you are calculating a theoretical equilibrium of 156 ppm nitrite - this is actually the maximum ppm that you will achieve rather than the actual ppm. The cure enters the meat by diffusion (not osmosis as is sometimes quoted) and will over time diffuse throughout the fluids in the meat. You cannot actually be certain how much enters the individual muscle cells (and different parts of the meat will absorb different amounts) but it is easier for us to assume that full equilibrium is reached when doing the calculations. When brining meat with the skin on this is attempted to be taken into account by making an allowance in the calculation for the assumed weight of the skin.

With your calculation, once equilibrium is reached you can be confidant that the final ppm will not exceed 156 - and it is likely to be rather less than this. Do not be alarmed by this though as there is a lot of safely margin built into these calculations.


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## 99jaapie

Hi Wade

Firstly, many thanks for your prompt and informed response. Sorry to hear that DDF may not be well.

Yes, I am probably not clear on what I am doing because I am not sure what I am doing!

Basically, I started making simple hams with the 0.9% cure and was using a dry rub at 17.75 gms per kg and then adjusting for salt and sugar (basically 1 imperial TBS salt and 2 TBS sugar. The results were fine.

As always, more interest and more impatience led me to attempt injecting and this is where the mess started. I have not had much success and seem to end up with "patchy" joints instead of a constant colour in the joint.

I am adding water plus meat, then using DDF's calculator (I am using a 6% cure here which is close to 6.25), pumping the meat and then placing inthe brine for say 5 to 7 days.

What I am trying to acheive I suppose is a quicker method using the injector/pump approach, but am not getting great results even after leaving in the brine for 7 days. It is almost as if the cure is too weak, but I do not want to overshoot here.

I do not know what the poickup rate is and in your first post you mention 10 times strength. Am I doing something wrong or missing something.

PS. I have also been given an Australian cure, which just to confuse the issue is at 1.52 % nitrite and states green pump 15% 5.0 kg cure to 45 litre of water.....oh boy!

Without being a pain, any additional info you could provide would be gratefully accepted!


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## wade

It is all about getting the required concentration of Nitrite and salt into the meat. For a given weight of meat that will always be the same amount of Nitrite but it can be delivered in different ways.

When injecting it is usual to weigh out the required amount of cure to give the desired ppm for the mass of meat and then dissolve it in a little water (~10% of the meat mass). This is then all injected evenly throughout the meat and time is allowed for it to diffuse evenly.

When immersion brining the amount of cure is calculated so that it is initially a little too strong in the water alone but as it diffuses throughout the meat mass it reaches equilibrium so that to the both brine and meat end up with approximately the final desired ppm. You can speed this up (and with larger pieces of meat or bone-in meat this is desirable) by injecting some of the brine into the centre of the meat mass and close to any bone. Time still needs to be allowed for the injected and external brines to reach equilibrium.

The 10% pickup that was being discussed previously in the thread (and in a spin off thread) was around some possible unfortunate wording in the Processing Inspectors Calculation Handbook where it seemed to suggest that an injection strength brine could be used as an immersion brine. This is where the discussion started to talk about if the meat increased by 10% was that the same as a 10% take up of the cure. I later questioned this with the FSIS directly and they confirmed that some of the information in the handbook was quite old and that the original compliers and their research notes are no longer around to question some of the content. He said though that the wording here did appear to be unfortunate.

I therefore tested this out myself and used a standard equilibrium cure (POPS cure) and the injection strength cure from DDF where the meat weight increased by 10%. 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results

After lab testing the samples for Nitrite, with the immersion cure the final PPM of Nitrite was roughly where we expected it to be, whereas the injection strength Nitrite the residual Nitrite levels were considerably higher than even the permitted ingoing levels.


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## 99jaapie

Hi Wade

Once again, thanks for your help. I think I will stick to the immersions brine method and pump the same mixture in to the meat in an attempt to shorten the time period.

I will also lower the salt percentage - what is the most common percentage - I knoiw it all boils down to taste - maybe I have a seriously salty tooth - which is not that good for me!

Next up I will try a small ham at 3% salt and 3% sugar......


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## wade

I prefer to use 2% to 2.5% salt but as you say peoples tastes vary. As a rule of thumb I also use half the amount of sugar to salt. Usually the sugar is there to mask the taste of the salt however some people do like to have their meat quite sweet. Yes, try 3% and 3% and then see if you need to adjust it for the next time.


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