# Smoker Options & Best Practices



## djtech2k (Jun 5, 2013)

Ok, so I am not really a complete noob at smoking now, but definitely done consider myself a veteran yet :)  This is my second season of smoking.  I originally started with 2 junky smokers, 1 vertical $30 smoker and an older horizontal $100 Char-Something offset smoker.  I started to learn on those, but don't really feel like I ever learned truly how to control the heat properly.  It was always a struggle.

So after my first trial season, I bought a MES 40 and AMNPS.  I have been using it for about a year and I like it a lot.  The only major concerns I have about using the MES are the temp is a little limited at 275 max, sometimes the AMNPS will stop smoking (so I have to check it regularly), and I do like the flavor of food cooked on real fire/smoke a little better.  Now in saying all of that, I will continue to use the MES a lot and still love it.  All the food I have cooked has been very good.

Now I am thinking about buying a 2nd smoker.  This smoker I definitely want to burn with "real fire", no gas and no electric.  I would love to have something that is not difficult to keep burning and maintain temps.  I don't need anything huge in size, but am open to anything.  I had heavily been considering buying a WSM, and still am considering it, but I'm not sure.  I am not sure about whether to try to burn mainly wood or try something with charcoal.  Can you burn wood on the WSM or is it just charcoal?  As I remember when I started, the coals provided the heat and wood chunks on top just produced smoke.  When I did it then, any wood I put on the coals burned up quickly.  As you can see, I have concern about what to burn, how to burn it, and how to control/maintain it.  When I started with charcoal, I had to work on it every 30 mins.  I don't want to have to do that.

I love watching things like BBQ Pitmasters   I see and read so much, but want to apply it at home.  I would consider anything, from WSM to pellet smokers, to anything else.  I want something that's produces good food on a real fire and that will not take all of my time to watch it when I smoke.

I do not have a specific budget in mind, but cannot get crazy.  I would prefer to stay under $500, but would consider options up to the $1000 ballpark.

Any advice or suggestions are appreciated!


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## sqwib (Jun 5, 2013)

There are many methods of smoking/cooking and each will give a different result.
If you want to play with fire and don't mind tending a pit, look into  stick burner.
I think the term "real fire" can be a feather ruffler.
So with that said do you mean you want to cook with wood as opposed to charcoal/or lump or just not propane and electric?
I like to refer to using a stick burner as "Pit Cooking", when I use my GOSM I like to refer to that as smoking.


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## oldschoolbbq (Jun 5, 2013)

Djtek , welcome to our Family. Hope you enjopy it here and call it home for all your BBQ needs...

As for a Smoker, I suggest the Horizon (sold at Bass Pro.) heavy to hold heat, needs few mods. to make it efficient and a Stickburner.  Now ,here is some reading that will help in Fire Management.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/stickburning101

Have fun and as always . . .


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## demosthenes9 (Jun 5, 2013)

SQWIB said:


> There are many methods of smoking/cooking and each will give a different result.
> If you want to play with fire and don't mind tending a pit, look into stick burner.
> I think the term "real fire" can be a feather ruffler.
> So with that said do you mean you want to cook with wood as opposed to charcoal/or lump?
> I like to refer to using a stick burner as "Pit Cooking", when I use my GOSM I like to refer to that as smoking.


Believe he lumped wood burning and charcoal together as "real fire", while electric and propane aren't.  Not even going to get into that debate  :)

DJ, if you are choosing between a stick burner and a charcoal smoker, the charcoal one would require less babysitting IF you done correctly.  Basically, use the "Minion method" or something similar for your coals and spread the wood chunks throughout.


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## roller (Jun 5, 2013)

Have u checked out the UDS`s (  Ugly drum smokers ) they use charcoal or lump with wood chunks for smoke hold the temp real good with little babysitting...There is a section on them on here...


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## fwismoker (Jun 5, 2013)

This is a better pic of a kit.


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## djtech2k (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks for responses so far. 

When I said "real fire" I basically meant not electric or gas because I already have a MES.  No offense intended either way, but I want  "burning" smoker, whether it be wood, pellets, and/or charcoal.

So a UDS is a very similar setup to a WSM, right?  So whats the biggest difference between burning wood vs charcoal? 

I have been looking at a lot of posts in here to gather info on different smokers.  What is the deal with pellet smokers?  I have never used one, but they seem to be a good combo of burning but controllable temps. 

I see all sorts of smokers on the forums, some popular and some not.  I see everything from Rec Tec to WSM, to Traeger to Lang, etc.


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## daveomak (Jun 5, 2013)

djtech, evening.... Below is a link to an outfit that sponsors this site....  they have a very good mix of smokers from several manufacturers ....   Click on the link to view......    Dave

http://www.meatprocessingproducts.c...ter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=april242013


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## fwismoker (Jun 5, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> Thanks for responses so far.
> 
> When I said "real fire" I basically meant not electric or gas because I already have a MES.  No offense intended either way, but I want  "burning" smoker, whether it be wood, pellets, and/or charcoal.
> 
> ...


DJ you don't need to apologize it's all good brother...Yes the UDS is similar type of cooker to a WSM but  typically a uds cooks directly over the fire with the drippings going into the fire box and adding additional flavor back to your meat.  Sometimes UDS folks will use a heat diverter to even out heat and catch some drippings from fatty meats like pork shoulders but they aren't necessary.   WSM uses a water pan between the fire and the meat but some WSM owners put sand in the water pan.

As far as differences between charcoal and wood that's a little more complicated.  Stick burners produce some great flavor and great TBS but there is a learning curve. Cured wood is burned down to coals and there is no need to add wood chunks for smoke. 

Lump is of course real wood but just burned in an oxygen free environment  and burns very clean, hot and produces minimal ash.  Using lump you'll want to add your wood chunks for what flavor smoke you'd like. 

Charcoal briquettes (some all natural) some with binders like Kingsford Blue are fine also and give more consistent temps,produce the most ash and burn longer than lump. Some briquettes can have wood fibers combined with them like Kingsford mesquite  but typically you'll still add in your wood chunks when you use briquettes.


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## sqwib (Jun 6, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> Thanks for responses so far.
> 
> When I said "real fire" I basically meant not electric or gas because I already have a MES.  No offense intended either way, but I want  "burning" smoker, whether it be wood, pellets, and/or charcoal. *Got it, reread your post. *
> 
> ...


If you go with an Offset, you have the option of Lump, Charcoal and Wood as fuel.

Cant say for sure but most folks are using Charcoal in a UDS.

The biggest difference with cooking with wood, vs. charcoal hmmm...Less ash comes to mind, different flavor profiles.

Charcoal will give you extremely long consistent burns, for wood you will need to learn fire management and burning wood can vary from cook to cook, charcoal is easier, wood is more fun...from my experience.

I prefer to cook offset, with verticals, everything is stacked over top of each other and directly above the heat source, on an offset (1 shelf) everything sits side by side. 

I also smoke on a GOSM Propane model and love that as well.

Appetizers, cheese, BB Bacon, Fish, chicken, turkey, beans all are done on the GOSM. 

Butts, Picnics, Ribs, Turkey, Chicken, Beans, Chili are done on the pit.

If you want the option to burn wood as fuel, the choice is obvious.

Good luck on whatever you decide and keep us posted.


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## sqwib (Jun 6, 2013)

FWIsmoker said:


> DJ you don't need to apologize it's all good brother...


Absolutely correct

I just got a little worried we wore gonna have a repeat as to the "Real Barbecue "debate.


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## djtech2k (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks all.

I am really looking at every option because this will  be my 2nd smoker and possibly the primary one.  I really like my MES, but I don't ever do long smokes like overnight because I worry about the AMNPS burning out.  Plus, it kind of makes me feel like I am cheating at times because its electric.  My smokes have always been good and everyone enjoys them, so the MES will never go away.

I just want a real "burning" smoker and one that offers me more flexibility, like higher temps.

So, the WSM has a million reviews and most good.  I am considering it, but I am pushing it to the side because I have heard a lot about it.  I had an old junky offset smoker that I learned with, but struggled keeping temps consistent or keeping the fire going.  I had to tend the fire every 30 mins.  That was bad when I smoked something for 8+ hours lol.

So what about pellet smokers?  On paper, it sounds like a good solution....burning pellets are wood, plus temp control can be done much easier on some smokers.  Does anyone here have any experience with pellet smokers or have any suggestions for one?

By all means, please keep all the suggestions or opinions coming.  Smoking has become one of my favorite things to do.  I just want to do more of it!


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## fwismoker (Jun 6, 2013)

Nothing wrong with pellet smokers but if temp control is a biggy to you then an ATC (automatic temp controller)  on a WSM/UDS will do as good or better then a pellet smoker will do.  Heck i'm using my WSM mini right now and it's keeping rock solid temps with no controller.  You've just had experience with cheaper smokers...you'll be in for a treat with a WSM or drum.


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## djtech2k (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks.

I have not spoken to anyone with a pellet smoker, so that's why I have been asking about it. 

So what kind of cost would a good ATC cost and how does it work?  Is that the fan thing that blows air on the fire?  Does it require mods?

So as of now, WSM and the UDS are the 2 recommendations.  The WSM is definitely still on my list, but I am still looking other good alternatives.  Is there a good single site that has a bunch of various smokers to compare?


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## djtech2k (Jun 6, 2013)

Also, I have a question about how pellet smokers work.  Is it simply that you load it with pellets, light it, and go?  For example, do the pellets provide the heat and the smoke or do you do something else to provide the smoke?


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## daveomak (Jun 7, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I have not spoken to anyone with a pellet smoker, so that's why I have been asking about it.
> 
> ...


Auto Temp Controllers run from $200 or so and up....  they are made for SFB smokers, webers, UDS, you name it... anything that burns charcoal, lump or regular firewood....   a fan blows on the fire, temp is read and the fan speeds up or slows down.... as far as I know...


djtech2k said:


> Also, I have a question about how pellet smokers work.  Is it simply that you load it with pellets, light it, and go?  For example, do the pellets provide the heat and the smoke or do you do something else to provide the smoke?


Pellet smokers like RecTec have ATC built into them....  adjusts the auger feed and air supply and control the temp....  I think they need smoker grade pellets... I don't think you should use home heating pellets in them...  They sound pretty cool, reading the literature....


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## fwismoker (Jun 7, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Auto Temp Controllers run from $200 or so and up....  they are made for SFB smokers, webers, UDS, you name it... anything that burns charcoal, lump or regular firewood....   a fan blows on the fire, temp is read and the fan speeds up or slows down.... as far as I know...


That is not correct on the cost range of the ATC's.   I have a BBQGuru PartyQ that is $ 129 and works for smaller pits, battery operated and portable.  It's a smaller  5 cfm fan but works on a smaller offset i run, kettle, and my UDS great.

I also have a PitMaster IQ that costs $ 140, it works awesome and has multi speed 15 cfm fan and can handle small to larger pits.

Both temp controllers depending on what you're cooking will keep your pit w/ in 0-10 degrees plus or minus easily and that's using lump....tighter ranges with KB


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## themule69 (Jun 7, 2013)

Lets start by saying i own a MES. IMHO if you want something that cooks like a MES but burns something. You don't have to tend to it. My suggestion is BEG or one of the other knock offs. You can get a knock off for $500. Light it dial it in and go to bed. needs no mods. works great right out of the box. very easy learning curve. Will smoke low and slow. or 750 deg.

I also have a UDS that will hold temp for  a long time hands off.

The WSM also works great.

Happy smoken.

David


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## daveomak (Jun 7, 2013)

FWIsmoker said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > Auto Temp Controllers run from $200 or so and up....  they are made for SFB smokers, webers, UDS, you name it... anything that burns charcoal, lump or regular firewood....   a fan blows on the fire, temp is read and the fan speeds up or slows down.... as far as I know...
> ...


FWI, morning.....  Sorry I erred.... I chose the manufacturer,s web site to quote.....

controller $115... Least expensive model... 

adapter and fan for your specific smoker. $92.....  small universal model

Extra long temp probe  $6...    

$213 to start....  plus shipping and taxes, (if applicable as long as we are trying to be very accurate)

The above was the least expensive complete unit on the manufacturers website.... 

I suppose other places sell for less.....  

I suppose I could have searched the web for the lowest price available....  

Choosing the manufacturer, I thought, was the best option for answering the members question....

Thanks you for pointing out a less expensive option....


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## fwismoker (Jun 7, 2013)

Yea Dave there are many different options that people should know about if they want something less expensive and that works well. If $ is an issue and you want a quality pit with better temp control than an oven THERE ARE PLENTY OF OPTIONS.  Many folks don't need an ATC to control multiple pits such as the Digi Q or Cyber Q (although they are nice!)      The other thing that's important to remember is inclement weather...there was a member that had his Guru ruined by the rain, most controllers have the separate components that you mentioned while others like the PitMaster IQ 110 is in a single unit and can be made rather weather proof.

This box saved my ATC with in the first week i had it.  













pitmaster weather box 1.jpg



__ fwismoker
__ Jun 7, 2013


















pitmaster weather box.jpg



__ fwismoker
__ Jun 7, 2013


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## djtech2k (Jun 7, 2013)

So it sounds like my best options are either a coal/wood burner with an ATC or a Pellet burner with ATC builtin.

So if I bought an ATC, which ones would be a good choice? It doesnt have to be the absolute cheapest, but something reliable and quality.

@FWIsmoker:  What is KB?

@themule69:  What is BEG?  Did you mean Big Green Egg?  If so, that was actually the first smoker I wanted, but decided against it because of a few factors.  First, I was scared that it would break, so even moving it a little bit would make me nervous.  I also did not like that the fire area could not be dealt with easily without removing the food.  I also noticed that there are a ton of accessories and all of them are very pricey.

For pellet smokers, are there any suggestions on those?  Are there drawbacks to pellet smokers?


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## themule69 (Jun 7, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> So it sounds like my best options are either a coal/wood burner with an ATC or a Pellet burner with ATC builtin.
> 
> So if I bought an ATC, which ones would be a good choice? It doesnt have to be the absolute cheapest, but something reliable and quality.
> 
> ...


Yes i ment BGE= big green egg. I have only had to add fuel during one smoke. i have done briskets and butts with left over fuel.. It will run out of fuel. But i Have never hot smoked for longer than 22 hours. I don't see you removing food till it's done.

They are only going to break if you knock them over. (Hard to do)

You don't have to use BGE stuff in a BGE a lot of other accessories will work fine. at fow a lot less $$

send SeenRed a pm. he has a pellet smoker.

David


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## fwismoker (Jun 7, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> So it sounds like my best options are either a coal/wood burner with an ATC or a Pellet burner with ATC builtin.
> 
> So if I bought an ATC, which ones would be a good choice? It doesnt have to be the absolute cheapest, but something reliable and quality. 2 types to look at.  One kind basically has a  digital controller which connects to a fan and smoker...example would be a "stoker" or BBQ Guru Nano Q, Digi 'Q or Cyber Q.   They can get really fancy like controlling multiple pits or control from your computer.
> 
> ...


Hope that helps.


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## djtech2k (Jun 7, 2013)

Ok, so I am still looking around for pellet smoker options.

Now for wood/coal burner, the WSM is definitely on my list.  Is there a good performing offset smoker that performs s good or better to the WSM?

I watch every BBQ show I can find on TV and there are some crazy pits out there!  Most are too big for me, but since I have the MES, I want to get something that gets me a different smoking experience.  I want to be able to comfortably smoke something for over 2 hours or overnight without having to worry about temp or fuel.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Jun 7, 2013)

My cousin has a Treager pellet smoker and he really likes it. I think it's to limiting for what I like to do. It requires power to run it. The space is more like a BBQ. You can't hang sausage. You can't get the temps low enough for jerky and fish smokes. Not to mention you have to use pellets to produce your heat $$$ My next smoker will be a stick burner. If I didn't have my Mini-WSM I'd really consider a 22" WSM.


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## djtech2k (Jun 7, 2013)

thanks. I have a mes, so low temps are fine.

A wsm with temp control is something I am considerng, but I am concerned about dealing with the external device, etc. Its still pretty hi ion my list wih a pellet smoker.


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## jirodriguez (Jun 7, 2013)

I switched from a cheap horizontal offset two or three years ago and wen to a 22.5" WSM. It just plain works, it has never let me down, is super easy to use, and turns out great Que. I don't have an ATC and have no problem using it, even in the winter. For an under $400 smoker it rocks!


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## fpnmf (Jun 7, 2013)

There is a bunch of threads about this topic.

I have answered this a few times and will again now.

I have a medium BGE...I could never make it hold low smoking temps,ever. It is a marvelous machine.

But for me. smoking with it was an impossible thing. Too much work... 

The BGE works better than anything for all things except smoking in my eyes. Perfect steaks and pizzas etc....all things done in an oven and grilling.

I have a MES 30 that has worked great with the amns dust burner. I cant get the pellets to work quite right for me.

I have made tons of great smoked goodness with it.

I also have a WSM...It is my go to smoker...it is perfect. out of the box.

If you want one smoker... get a WSM  I have the 18.5.

Go to my profile and look at the threads I started...

Of course this is my opinion...YMMV.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/135116/how-i-start-and-use-my-wsm

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/94076/wsm-mods

  Craig


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## themule69 (Jun 7, 2013)

fpnmf said:


> There is a bunch of threads about this topic.
> 
> I have answered this a few times and will again now.
> 
> ...


Craig

I find it strange your BGE wont do low temp cooking. I have  a small and a large. I can dial in 225 and walk away. I use Ozark Oak lump. What are you using for fuel? Are you trying to get below 200 deg?

Happy smoken.

David


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## fpnmf (Jun 7, 2013)

themule69 said:


> Craig
> 
> I find it strange your BGE wont do low temp cooking. I have  a small and a large. I can dial in 225 and walk away. I use Ozark Oak lump. What are you using for fuel? Are you trying to get below 200 deg?
> 
> ...


I used RO lump or the BG lump.which is made by RO.

I couldnt get it to stay near 225 for any length of time..

I bought the adapter for the guru when I bought it and the WSM..never tried it...

It was quite aggravating..

So I bought the Mes...then the WSM...made things real easy..

  Craig


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## fwismoker (Jun 7, 2013)

fpnmf said:


> I used RO lump or the BG lump.which is made by RO.
> 
> I couldnt get it to stay near 225 for any length of time..
> 
> ...


Craig you know you have an air leak some where,  it can be a small one but you have to have one....i don't have a BGE but did you high heat silicone around all the air vents?

I get that clear high heat RTV from Doitbsest...can't go wrong and can't hurt anything.


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## themule69 (Jun 7, 2013)

fpnmf said:


> I used RO lump or the BG lump.which is made by RO.
> 
> I couldnt get it to stay near 225 for any length of time..
> 
> ...


That is strange. If it was someone else. I would say temp gauge. But i've read to many of your post. I don't know. I have never known anybody that has had that problem.


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## djtech2k (Jun 7, 2013)

Ok, so I am trying to build a list of smokers so I can narrow the scope a bit.  Let me know how these sound.

Wood/Coal: WSM 18/22, ??

Pellet:  Rec Tec, SmokeDaddy Pellet Pro, GMG Daniel Boone

Am I missing any that I should consider?  Is there a good performing offset wood/coal burner I should consider?


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## fwismoker (Jun 7, 2013)

lang_48_patio.jpg



__ fwismoker
__ Jun 7, 2013






Great list... How about a Lang?


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## themule69 (Jun 7, 2013)

FWIsmoker said:


> lang_48_patio.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what i was thinking. if you want offset. this will fill the bill. but you will have to feed it every now and then.

David


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## themule69 (Jun 8, 2013)

it's your money. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





David


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## jirodriguez (Jun 8, 2013)

djtech2k said:


> Ok, so I am trying to build a list of smokers so I can narrow the scope a bit.  Let me know how these sound.
> 
> Wood/Coal: WSM 18/22, ??
> 
> ...


Traeger is another really well known pellet pooper, just make sure you get one with the upgraded thermostat - no the three position one (low, med, high).


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## djtech2k (Jun 10, 2013)

Good point on the Lang, but I have considered them, but not sure its a good fit for me. I say that because it is higher on the price range and it does not have anything like the temp controller on it. As it sits, its just a well-built stick burner, right? By the time I buy the controller or whatever else I need, the price will be even higher. The other options have more features for less price. I do like the offset design, but its pricey for what it appears to be. So I went to a local high-end outdoor living store. They are a BGE, Memphis, Louisiana, and former Traeger dealer. They presented a Louisiana pellet grill and several Memphis pellet grills. According to them and the brochures, these pellet grills do both grilling and smoking. I also noticed the Yoder does the same.  They had digital temp controls and some smoker functions. I am wondering how well these pits will work as a smoker, or if its a waste of time. Do any of you guys know about these? I wonder if they will be good grills and poor smokers, or whatever. I wonder how the grill will know if it should produce heavy smoke for smoking vs just getting hot with no smoke to grill something like a steak. I have been planning to buy a new propane grill for grilling and a new smoker. They say that you can combine, but I am skeptical. What do you guys think?


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## daveomak (Jun 10, 2013)

Pellet grills usually don't smoke ....  The firebox, where the pellets drop in, is fan forced air for combustion....  Soooo, no smoke...  A smoke generator is a good addition.... The AMNPS or AMNTS would work...    Dave


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## fwismoker (Jun 10, 2013)

DJ the PelletPro does have a unique  cold smoke setting that produces decent smoke at lower temps..say lower than 150 degrees i believe.   Dave is correct that with a pellet grill a smoke generator is a good idea if you prefer more smoke flavor.


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## backyardsmokin (Jun 10, 2013)

I have  a GMG Jim Bowie with remote and I love it.  I had a bad controller card right out of the box, but my dealer and the great CS at GMG got me a new controller before the following weekend.  After that I spend some time getting it dialed in and seasoned.  Now it is running full steam ahead and I have less than a 20 degree difference across the grate.  I get a constant TBS with the pellets that I use (Bear Mtn from C&C).

I have done steaks, a ball tip roast, a few tri-tips, chicken thighs, pastrami and a few pizzas on this guy and no issues.

I did 1 mod to it to turn the low pellet alarm off and on.  Next up is to convert it to run off of DC/Solar and a remote that can text me when the pellets get low.

Side note:  When dialing the grill in both the Daniel Boone and the Jim Bowie have unique characteristics.  Some remove the baffles, some need them there, or like me I needed the right baffle in but plug the holes in it.


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## djtech2k (Jun 10, 2013)

Hmm.  Well all this really kinda confuses me.  I thought the pellet smokers produced their own smoke.  Then I start looking at them and it sounds like many of them are "grills" that will smoke.  So I am still going to have to use an AMNPS with any pellet smoker I find?  I definitely did not think that was the case.  That's kinda disappointing if its true.  I have an AMNPS, but I would prefer to not have to use it outside of my MES.

I do need a new grill and was planning to buy a propane grill,  but if a pellet burner could really fill both roles, then that would be great.  But, if it would make a good grill and a mediocre smoker, then I am not into that.


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## backyardsmokin (Jun 10, 2013)

They do produce their own smoke.  They startup by using an electric igniter to ignite the compressed wood pellets in the fire box.  Once they are on fire the auger feeds pellets into the fire as needed to maintain temps.  Some people feel that a pellet pooper do not produce enough flavor so they use an AMNPS to help offset.  To me my GMG produces the right amount of smoke.   

True you can use the pellet for almost everything especially when fine temp control is needed.  I lime to use mine as an outdoor oven so I don't heat the house up in the summer.  That said, will I give up my gasser grill?  No.  I still love my gasser for those quick cooks and searing.  I gone for work 14hrs and it is nice to come home, fire up the gasser and through something on there quickly.


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## djtech2k (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks.  I am trying to determine what type of quality these pellet grills will smoke and bbq food.  I just do not want to get into a situation where it is mediocre at grilling and mediocre at smoking.  Whether I buy separate equipment or a consolidated piece does not matter to me.  One piece of equipment that does both is convenient, but not a requirement for me.


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## backyardsmokin (Jun 11, 2013)

I have not had a problem grilling on mine, but then I do not care about the sear marks.  If you care about searing marks, you can always get a set of GrillGrates.  Hope fully I won't get in trouble for this statement, but you can take a look a look at pelletheads.com where they have groups based on different pellet grills.  I look there for technical resources on my grill

SeenRed is an excellent resource on here for pellet grills.  He has a RecTec.


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## jcurrier (Jun 13, 2013)

Go with the 22" WSM.  Great product


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