# Second Bacon Attempt--Dry Brine This Time



## mneeley490 (Feb 4, 2013)

Started up another batch yesterday with an 11 lb. pork belly, after slicing off the rind. This time I'm going by Todd Johnson's dry brine recipe: http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/109696/bacon-cure-recipe

However, I did make two substitutions. One, I am using MTQ for the cure. And two, maple sugar in place of the brown sugar. I'm hoping to get more of a maple flavor coming thru this time. Cut (unevenly) into three pieces. One was at 3 lb, 3.9 lb, and 4 lb.

I divided the cure mixture into what I believe was the right dosage for each piece, rubbed, and put into 2 gal. plastic bags and sucked as much air out as I could with a straw. (These pieces were much too big to use with my vacuum sealer.) And that's where it stands now. I will turn each bag daily and check on their progress.

I am calculating the rate of cure penetration as 1/4" per day, per side, plus 2 days. So if it is 1-3/4" at its thickest point, and the cure is working in from both sides equaling 1/2" each day, then it should be cured in 4 days, plus 2 more for good measure. That would mean that I could theoretically smoke on day 7, correct?

Pics to follow...


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## dirtsailor2003 (Feb 4, 2013)

mneeley490 said:


> Started up another batch yesterday with an 11 lb. pork belly, after slicing off the rind. This time I'm going by Todd Johnson's dry brine recipe: http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/109696/bacon-cure-recipe
> 
> One, I am using MTQ for the cure. . Cut (unevenly) into three pieces. One was at 3 lb, 3.9 lb, and 4 lb.
> 
> ...


For Morton's TQ you need to use 1 tbsp (1/2 oz)  per pound. From the sounds of it you measured it all out for all three pieces mixed with the sugars then divided.  You should have measured the correct amount of cure out separately for each weighed piece of meat. Then added the divided sugar to each separate pile of measured cure . Then rub the required cure mixture into each piece, placing each piece into its own bag. If you divided after mixing with the sugar there is no way to know if the correct amount of cure got in each bag for the weight of each cut.

At least that's how I was taught to measure out for dry brining bacon. Also was taught to never swap amounts of different cures(original recipe called for Mortons Sugar Cure, not MTQ) per recipes called out amount.


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## mneeley490 (Feb 5, 2013)

That is exactly what I did. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, but I was typing at work & didn't have a lot of free time.

Combined sugar & spices, minus the MTQ, equaled 215 gr. Divided that into 65 gr, 75gr , & 75gr. Then added 3 T. MTQ to #1, 3 T.+ 2 t. to #2, and finally 4 T. to #3. Combined each separately and rubbed each piece of belly with the appropriate amount.

Flipped tonight. They are making a small amount of liquid, as to be expected.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

mneeley490 said:


> SI am calculating the rate of cure penetration as 1/4" per day, per side, plus 2 days. So if it is 1-3/4" at its thickest point, and the cure is working in from both sides equaling 1/2" each day, then it should be cured in 4 days, plus 2 more for good measure. That would mean that I could theoretically smoke on day 7, correct?



I would give it 7 days per inch of total thickness.
Yes, salt and cure may well have penetrated to the center in less time, but at a gradient.
It's best to allow extra time so that the salt and cure equalize evenly throughout the belly.


~Martin


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## mneeley490 (Feb 5, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> I would give it 7 days per inch of total thickness.
> Yes, salt and cure may well have penetrated to the center in less time, but at a gradient.
> It's best to allow extra time so that the salt and cure equalize evenly throughout the belly.
> 
> ...


So at 1-3/4" we're looking at, say, 12 days curing time?


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

Yeah.


~Martin


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## mneeley490 (Feb 5, 2013)

Ok, I can live with that. Thanks, Martin!


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

Just a note: Morton Tender Quick is interchangable with the Sugar Cure Plain or Smoke for bacon dry surface application.  Morton does recomend 7 days per inch.  Mine usually run 1 3/4 to 2 inches so, I just cure 14 days just to simplify things, equalize for two days per mortons recomendation then smoke for three days.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Just a note: Morton Tender Quick is interchangable with the Sugar Cure Plain or Smoke for bacon dry surface application.  Morton does recomend 7 days per inch.  Mine usually run 1 3/4 to 2 inches so, I just cure 14 days just to simplify things, equalize for two days per mortons recomendation then smoke for three days.



Morton Sugar Cure Smoke Flavored is for long term dry curing only, it's not interchangeable with MTQ or MSC, it's a different formula.



~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Morton Sugar Cure Smoke Flavored is for long term dry curing only, it's not interchangeable with MTQ or MSC, it's a different formula.
> 
> 
> 
> ~Martin


Martin,  Quoting from the Morton Home Meat Curing Guide, Chapter 4, page 12 - BACON dry cure - 1/2 oz dry cure per pound of meat.  Sugar Cure (Plain or Smoke Flavored) mix is generally used, but Tender Quick may be used for dry application.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

The smoke flavored is intended for long term dry curing.
It shouldn't be used for the type of bacon that most folks are making.
It's intended for dry cured country ham or country bacon.

It contains only nitrate, no nitrite.

_"Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavor is only for dry curing ham and bacon. *This product should not be used with other meats or in a brine cure.*"_

http://www.mortonsalt.com/for-your-...g-salts/182/morton-sugar-cure-smoke-flavored/



~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> The smoke flavored is intended for long term dry curing.
> It shouldn't be used for the type of bacon that most folks are making.
> It's intended for dry cured country ham or country bacon.
> 
> ...


You are correct on the long term use of the smoke flavored cure.  That does not mean it cannot be used for bacon though.  On page seven the guide states that the mix is formulated for large cuts of meat like hams or bacon and should only be used for dry curing.  I do believe I mentioned dry cure in the previous post.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> You are correct on the long term use of the smoke flavored cure.  That does not mean it cannot be used for bacon though.  On page seven the guide states that the mix is formulated for large cuts of meat like hams or bacon and should only be used for dry curing.  I do believe I mentioned dry cure in the previous post.



Huh?
I don't think you read what I posted!
Who said it can't be used for bacon?
I certainly didn't.




DiggingDogFarm said:


> The smoke flavored is intended for long term dry curing.
> It shouldn't be used for the type of bacon that most folks are making.
> It's intended for dry cured country ham or country bacon.
> 
> ...



I brought this up because it's important that folks don't confuse dry cure, apply a dry cure and dry curing, they're not all the same thing when it comes to using nitrite and nitrate.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124452/confusing-dry-curing-with-dry-curing


~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

Martin, OMG,  So whats your bottom line?  Are you saying that Morton is wrong, that it can't be used as stated in the guide?


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

One more time.
Folks should not be using it (Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored) for short term curing, it's intended for long term *DRY* curing, just as Morton's says.

_*"Are the meat curing products interchangeable?
Only Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] PLAIN are interchangeable measure for measure. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored is used for DRY curing ham and bacon only."*_

http://www.mortonsalt.com/faqs/meat-curing-faqs


~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> One more time.
> Folks should not be using it for short term curing, it's intended for long term dry curing, just as Morton's says.
> 
> 
> ~Martin


The above quote is correct, but not complete.   I refer you back to post # 10 in this thread. 

 I see there are ones that use no nitrate or nitrite.  Would  I do that?   No, I'll stick with Morton's curring mixes and recommendations.  They say that MTQ, MSC and MSFSC  all can be used at the rate of 1/2 oz per pound @ 7 days per inch. I take it they consider that long term for dry cured bacon.

 Personally I use MTQ on my pork bellies and have always had excellent results.

I am not going to get involved any further in a P'n match here.  The important thing is and I'm sure you will agree, when folks are using a commercial cure or brine, they should stick to the manufactures recommendations.  At the price of meat these days, no one wants to toss any out.

Tom


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

It's not a P'n match, MTQ and MSCP can be used for long term dry curing (my family used them for decades on the farm), but MSCSF is NOT intended for short term fast curing, the way most folks cure bacon now-a-days. 
And again, folks confuse dry curing with apply a dry cure short term, they're not the same thing.

~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 5, 2013)

If this isn't a match I will continue.  I'm not discussing other curing methods here whatever they might be, just Morton's.  You stated that the cures were not interchangeable, but they are when using the dry cure treatment for bacon and dry surface application.

  I strongly recommend to the ones using Morton cures, that they purchase their Curing Guide as it goes into more detail than what can be retrieved from their web sites.  After all, if they put all the guide info on the web, the guide sales would diminish.

Tom

Martin, Been wanting to ask.  Have you or any one else been able to ice fish this year?  Terrible conditions here.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 5, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> If this isn't a match I will continue.  I'm not discussing other curing methods here whatever they might be, just Morton's.  You stated that the cures were not interchangeable, but they are when using the dry cure treatment for bacon and dry surface application.
> 
> I strongly recommend to the ones using Morton cures, that they purchase their Curing Guide as it goes into more detail than what can be retrieved from their web sites.  After all, if they put all the guide info on the web, the guide sales would diminish.
> 
> ...



Again, the bottom line is, MSCSF is not intended for and should not be used for short term curing.

No ice fishing here this year, or last year, it hasn't been cold enough.


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 6, 2013)

The subject of the Sodium Nitrate in Morton's Cures and whether it is safe for use in the typical 14 day Dry Brining, Dry Curing or anything less other than a long Cured Country style Bacon has lead to Many a battle here. While I have not personally talked to anyone at Morton's others have and the company believes in and endorses their product. Since the company has been in business since the late 1840's, they may just not put any value in studies showing the use and consumption of unconverted nitrate as causing an issue. I know Nitrate has been banned for Bacon production by the USDA but I can't seem to find any info from them on why...I have read the studies on Nitrite and Nitrate forming Nitrosamines during high temp cooking, but nitrosamines can be formed in the gut as well. Studies show the addition of Vitamin C reduces the Nitrosamine so that enjoy the Bacon and a glass of OJ and be worry free!  Is there an issue with Nitrate being converted by the Bacteria in the Gut and reaching toxic or unsafe levels. I just can't find any reason why this discussion or argument continues. You have any info on this Martin?...JJ

This is an interesting read...http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/seasoningflavoring/a/nitrates.htm


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2013)

From the FSIS handbook.....  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf   page 28.... excerpts

++++++++++++++++++

Regardless of the curing method used, restricted ingredient calculations for bacon are based on

the green weight of the skinless belly.  For rind-on bacon, e.g., where the skin is sold as part of

the finished product, a restricted ingredient conversion calculation is necessary.

*Nitrate is no **longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.*

*++++++++++++++++++*

From Wedliny Domowe.....  http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing  ...  excerpts... 

++++++++++++++=

Meats were traditionally cured with Nitrate.

Before Nitrate can release nitrite, it has to react with bacteria that have to be present in the meat.

Putting Nitrate into a refrigerator kept solution (below 40° F) will inhibit the development of bacteria, and they may not be able to react with Nitrate.

They also predominantly used potassium Nitrate which works best at temperatures of 46-50° F (8-10° C) and those were the temperatures of basement cellars.

Salt and nitrite will stop _Cl. botulinum _spores from developing into toxins, even at those higher curing temperatures. 

+++++++++++++

From Susan Minor........  http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?674-SAUSAGE-INGREDIENTS ..  Excerpts....

*SODIUM NITRATE*

Nitrates are considered a slow cure, and are referred to as a “time release capsule.” It does not cure meat directly and initially not much happens when it is added to meat. With nitrates the curing is dependent on the amount of bacteria present, and the environment (temperature) the bacteria need to grow. For nitrates to work as a cure it requires the presents of certain microorganisms. These microorganisms are present in all meats, and start to react with the nitrates to reduce them to nitrites. It is the nitrites that will start the curing process.

This is a slow process that steadily releases nitrites over a long period of time. This makes it well suited for curing products that require long curing times. Dry cure products can take as long as several weeks to several months to fully cure. Nitrates are used for making dry cure sausages; such as pepperoni, hard salami, geonoa salami, dried farmers sausage, capicola, etc, and dry cure meats that are not cooked or need to be cooked.

++++++++++++++++

There have been many arguments on this site over the use of Morton's products and their use in bacon....

For the record, *USE WHAT EVER CURING PRODUCT YOU CHOOSE TO USE.....*  

As you can see from the above print, nitrates are not allowed in a bacon product..... 

Nitrates convert to nitrites in the presence of certain bacteria.....   

Refrigeration inhibits the growth of bacteria.....

Nitrates work best at temperatures in the range of 46-50 deg F

Nitrates works best in long term dry curing.... many months at 46-50 deg. F...   meats not intended to be cooked, like bacon...

Rubbing meat with a curing product and placing it in a zip bag in the refer for 14 days... is not dry curing....  

it is a form of Pumped and/or Massaged and/or Immersion curing....

Dry curing is when you see meat hanging in a root cellar, or a barn during the winter for 1 to 9 months.... 

++++++++++++++++++++

I have read many papers, notes and articles on curing.....   I am still learning....  

What I have written, is what I go by from the reading I have done...  It is VERY condensed and not all relevant material is presented in the above.....  

The sources have been noted, so, read if you wish to get educated.....  

Many folks on this forum are curing using methods that are older than I am...  They were perfectly good methods when they were written, and still could be perfectly good and safe today... I'm not arguing about historical methodology....  I'm still trying to learn to cook the way Grandma did... she died 52 years ago....  Old ways are good...  Bacon made 52 years ago was the best bacon ever made....  I'm trying to duplicate that bacon.....  Only difference is, I'm going to duplicate it using proven, safe, modern methods....


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 6, 2013)

That is great info Dave and I have had those sites bookmarked in my Curing file for awhile. They are very clear about how Nitrate works and why with a long, warm (>40*F ), Dry curing process we use it. And the USDA statement you highlighted says Nitrate is no longer permitted...But...I would like to see some info on Why it is no longer permitted. For years guys have argued with Bearcarver that MTQ was potentially dangerous for curing Bacon and other meats because it contained Nitrate and that MTQ's Nitrate won't be converted during a short, Cold Cure. However, I have not seen anything definitive as to why they are so worried and if the small amount of Nitrate in MTQ is or isn't cause for worry when makin' and eating Bacon...JJ


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2013)

*Nitrate is no **longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.*

I don't know why.... It doesn't matter to me either way....  I figure there is some scientific evidence to back up their statement that is too lengthy to discuss in Food Safety Inspection Service pamphlet....  

That is like asking, "why 120 Ppm nitrite in bacon when up to 600 Ppm nitrite is allowed in other meat products"

I'm sure there is scientific evidence to support those numbers also...

It probably has something to do with nitrosamine formation.... some say it is formed at 600 deg.... others say 300 deg.... nitrosamines are bad, or so they say....  Not worth me being a guinea pig to try and prove them wrong....  

I'm not one to try and dissect every little detail... some things yes... others no.... Like I wrote in my post.....

*USE WHAT EVER CURING PRODUCT YOU CHOOSE TO USE*


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 6, 2013)

It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 6, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ


While trying to get through this web of confusion , I found this interesting read.

A bacon cooking study, "Effect of Frying and Other Cooking Conditions on Nitrosopyrrolidine Formation in Bacon" (Journal of Science, Vol. 39, pages 314-316), showed no evidence of nitrosamines in bacon fried at 210 °F for 10 minutes (raw), 210 °F for 15 minutes (medium well), 275 °F for 10 minutes (very light), or 275 °F for 30 minutes (medium well). But when bacon was fried at 350 °F for 6 minutes (medium well), 400 °F for 4 minutes (medium well), or 400 °F for 10 minutes (burned), some nitrosamines were found. Thus, well-done or burned bacon is potentially more hazardous than less well-done bacon. Also, bacon cooked by a microwave has less nitrosamine than fried bacon.

Fact:  If they put nitrites or nitrates in beer, I would have a serious problem.


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 6, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ


Here's more.  Just spoke to consumer affairs at Morton.  I ask Morton's stand on the USDA banning nitrates when curing bacon.  Their response was " You will have to speak to the USDA about that."  Any one have a phone number ?


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2013)

I find it amazing.....

The FDA finds a health concern with an additive put in food..... bans it..... and you guys dance around the situation looking for any way possible, to justify it's use in your food...

Not all chickens have salmonella....  Do you eat it raw ???

One goal of this forum is to teach folks safety issue in curing and smoking foods....


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## dirtsailor2003 (Feb 6, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Fact:  If they put nitrites or nitrates in beer, I would have a serious problem.


x2!!!


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 6, 2013)

The discussion was about using a Morton's product in an inappropriate way, not a general discussion of the use of nitrate.

Morton's Sugar Cure Smoked flavored shouldn't be used for short term curing (short term curing of any kind, not just bacon) the same way that saltpeter isn't recommended for short term curing.
That's why we now use nitrite when we cure short term.

*The reason I bought it up was because folks should not be using Morton's Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure the same way that they generally us MTQ, pretty simple concept, really.*

But, of course, do as you please.

Anyway....about nitrate in bacon.....

"A bacon cooking study, "Effect of Frying and Other Cooking Conditions on Nitrosopyrrolidine Formation in Bacon" (Journal of Science, Vol. 39, pages 314-316), showed no evidence of nitrosamines in bacon fried at 210 °F for 10 minutes (raw), 210 °F for 15 minutes (medium well), 275 °F for 10 minutes (very light), or 275 °F for 30 minutes (medium well). But when bacon was fried at 350 °F for 6 minutes (medium well), 400 °F for 4 minutes (medium well), or 400 °F for 10 minutes (burned), some nitrosamines were found. Thus, well-done or burned bacon is potentially more hazardous than less well-done bacon. Also, bacon cooked by a microwave has less nitrosamine than fried bacon."

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/FACTSheets/Bacon_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

The reason they've regulated nitrate and nitrite in *commercial* bacon is pretty simple.
Nitrite converts to nitrosamines.
The USDA set the rules for *commercial* bacon production to minimize the amount of residual nitrites in bacon which also  minimizes possible nitrosamine production.
By eliminating nitrate, which converts to nitrite in an often unpredictable fashion, they have taken a special step to better control the amount of residual nitrite in bacon.
Nitrite is limited to a certain level and a curing accelerator is required to further ensure that residual nitrite levels are at a minimum.

The government isn't God, as far as what they suggest, take it or leave it when it comes to home cured bacon.

Again, do as you please.

*BTW: Beer does contain nitrosamines!!!*

~Martin


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks Martin, you saved me a lot of typing.  To try and cut this short I just spoke to the USDA and the FDA.  Bottom line I was told is, they don't speak to one another. Surprise?  The USDA says nitrates cannot be used in commercial products while the FDA grants it okay for Morton to use as an additive in there product for home use.  

I'm sure this clears things up. Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go bang my head against the wall.

Thanks for the info on the beer.

Tom


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2013)

All members.......  About post   #27...

At times, I  can get a little "up tight" when it comes to curing meat safely....  Probably for the reason, one mistake could be one mistake too many....  

If you were offended, I apologize....   If you took notice of how important, I feel, curing meat properly is.... that is good.... 

Sincerely, DaveOmak


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## smoking b (Feb 6, 2013)

No worries here Dave  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





    Just shows you have passion!


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> All members.......  About post   #27...
> 
> At times, I  can get a little "up tight" when it comes to curing meat safely....  Probably for the reason, one mistake could be one mistake too many....
> 
> ...


As do we all Dave,  That is why a good discussion on such matters is good for us all.  In this case we have one government agency that has nitrates on the "Restricted Ingredients" list and another who allows it to be placed in commercial products. After spending a very interesting morning talking to both the USDA and the FDA hoping to get this matter resolved, the finding was that it is not as cut and dried as one would like.  I learned that when cooking bacon with nitrates the temperature has a great effect on the bad stuff we eat, refering to post #25.  According to the FDA low and slow is the way to go, dont burn it.   

Tom


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## mneeley490 (Feb 6, 2013)

Uh, guys, the point here is moot.

1) I titled the thread "dry brining", not dry curing, and

2) I wouldn't care if the Nitrates formed arsenic. I'd still eat bacon.


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2013)

mneeley490 said:


> Uh, guys, the point here is moot.
> 
> 1) I titled the thread "dry brining", not dry curing, and
> 
> 2) I wouldn't care if the Nitrates formed arsenic. I'd still eat bacon.


mneeley490, evening..... regardless of the title or subject, there were some points that needed clarifying....

Sorry for highjacking the thread...   Dave


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks Mr. T for doing the leg work. I have never been one to follow anything Blindly. If the USDA says Nitrate can't be used for Commercial Bacon and the FDA say Morton can add Nitrate to their cures for Home cured Bacon...I want to no why? Simply following and/or quoting some Rule, Guideline or Law, can be costly to oneself and Definitely costly to others that rely on our expertise to lead them in their endeavors. Thanks for the valuable information and our continued education...JJ


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## daveomak (Feb 7, 2013)

JJ, morning....  I would take a guess....   Lobbyists got Morton's products "grandfathered", to home users, when the law was passed... 

Protecting the rights of individuals to process meats as they chose......

Dave


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## mr t 59874 (Feb 7, 2013)

Trying to read between the lines, my opinion is that knowing that many fry their bacon at high temps until crisp, the USDA found it easier to restrict nitrates in bacon than to put warnings and cooking instructions on the packaging.

On the other hand the FDA felt it more important for those who cure their own bacon to control bacteria than to fry bacon at high temperatures.


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