# Brisket And Burnt Ends



## daricksta (Sep 12, 2016)

Had a 5 lb. remainder--including the point--of a whole packer brisket so I decided to try my hand at my first attempt at burnt ends. You can see from the photo that I got some nice color but, for the most part, the meat didn't get crunchy enough for me. I cooked them at around 235-243° for two hours in a foil pan, for the most part following Jeff Phillips' online recipe. They turned out really flavorful. All in all I think a good first effort.

For the dry rub (photo # 3) I made it from Steven Raichlen's Kansas City Sweet & Smoky recipe. I also used Stubb's Original BBQ Sauce for the burnt ends.

The entire brisket took about 24 hours to cook and I don't know why. It hit its first stall at about 150° and I left it wrapped  in red butcher paper for 12 hours, or basically all night. When I took the paper off, the paper was soaked and dripping in grease. The brisket was very wet on the outside but wound up at the end with pretty good bark. No idea why the brisket kept stalling. What's also confusing is that despite being exposed to the oak wood pellet smoke for so long a time it really didn't absorb that much smoke flavor. Again, no idea why since I've cooked briskets in my MES over wood pellets before and they turned out nicely smoked. Well, I've got one more whole packer brisket to smoke sometime as well as a small flat. I'll figure it all out the next time, or the time after that. 













Brisket 1.JPG



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Brisket 2.JPG



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Brisket With Dry Rub.JPG



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Burnt Ends.JPG



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What took the smoke so long was that, per Meathead Goldwyn, I was trying to get the finish IT to 203° but it stalled for a couple of hours at 201° so I pulled it. Next time I'm pulling it at 200° because the flat came out too dry.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 12, 2016)

I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.

I've only taken flats above 195* for pulling...185*-195* for slicing, depending on how stubborn it is.

I also finish burnt ends on open grates for 2-3hrs...never in a pan...always get a nice crunch and popping, tender chew. I separate the point/flat when the point hits the mid 150's (flat is usually nearing ~165* so by then)...lose less moisture when slicing.

Eric


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## SmokinAl (Sep 13, 2016)

Well it sure looks good from here!

Al


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## dr k (Sep 13, 2016)

@DaRicksta
Looks tasty!  The foil pan limits smoke contact compared to being on an open rack. I like Bear's rack inside the foil pan so when I cover the pan with foil the meat only touches the rack, keeping it elevated out of the juices. I have used butchers paper a few times with good results. I prefer to smoke on an open rack for maximum smoke exposure then at the stall put it on a rack in the foil pan and tent with foil when I want to generate more juices. I like all three:  foil, paper and naked. I have a large top round for roast beef I've never made before and will smoke it naked the whole time. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.
> 
> I've only taken flats above 195* for pulling...185*-195* for slicing, depending on how stubborn it is.
> 
> ...


That's why I removed the paper, because the meat surface was too wet. But the brisket was exposed to the wood smoke for 7-8 hours after that. Granted the pellets snuffed themselves out and I had to relight the AMNPS a few times. This never used to happen this often. Perhaps because the oak pellets are a few years old but they don't feel like they've absorbed moisture. But there were also times I thought the tray had gone out but when I pulled the AMNPS from the smoker there was still wispy smoke being generated. And yes, I've gotten much better smoke in the past using these oak pellet as well as the Texas Crutch.

How do you keep the burnt ends from falling through the grate? I think I'll not use a foil pan next time even though Jeff Phillips uses one. As for finish IT, the last time I cooked a flat to 198° IT the fat wasn't rendered nearly enough. For my tastes it's gotta be at least 200°. I've got a whole packer brisket in the freezer right now. I decided that next time--since I have to split the brisket since the entire thing won't fit on a single rack in my MES 30, I'll wrap the flat in paper when it reaches 150-160° but I'll leave the point naked, There's no throwing briskets around inside my little electric smoker so the bark will be fine.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

SmokinAl said:


> Well it sure looks good from here!
> 
> Al


Thanks, Al.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

Dr K said:


> @DaRicksta
> Looks tasty! The foil pan limits smoke contact compared to being on an open rack. I like Bear's rack inside the foil pan so when I cover the pan with foil the meat only touches the rack, keeping it elevated out of the juices. I have used butchers paper a few times with good results. I prefer to smoke on an open rack for maximum smoke exposure then at the stall put it on a rack in the foil pan and tent with foil when I want to generate more juices. I like all three: foil, paper and naked. I have a large top round for roast beef I've never made before and will smoke it naked the whole time.
> -Kurt


Kurt, The burnt ends turned out fine. It was just the flat that lacked smoke flavor. They were smokier than the flat which was cooked naked on a rack before and after the paper wrap. Jeff Phillips believes in placing the brisket in a foil pan to catch all the juices and cut down on the cleanup. I prefer to stick the brisket parts right on the racks. As I commented to forluvofsmoke, I have one more whole packer in the freezer. Next time the point will remain naked and I'll wrap the flat in paper when the stall hits. What I don't understand for this time was why the brisket point stalled so many times. I even tried removing and reinserting the probe but it didn't make any difference.

You mentioned top round. That cut of meat is going on sale as London broil at Safeway this week, The meat dept. manager has become my buddy and he's the one who told me it'd be going on sale. I'm going to have him slice it up thin to use for my third batch of beef jerky. Jerky is surprisingly easy to make well.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 13, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.
> ...


I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.

Yeah, if you cut across the packer to fit in the smoker, you have mostly point muscle on one end and mostly flat muscle on the other. Kind of simplifies the process for burnt ends, as you can grab the point at your desired I/T and work your magic while the flat stays behind to get happy.

I have yet to smoke whole muscle meat in a pan...well, at least I don't recall doing it...OK, wait, I did toss boneless/skinless chicken thighs into a pan once with garlic butter...LOL!!! Burnt ends on open grates are a thing of beauty. Nicely caramelized crust, and if the point is cubed at a low enough I/T, the interior texture is a unique experience. The meat will get more tender on the second round in the smoker, but not to the point that it melts all of the collagen...just enough still there to add a little pop in the chew. Still good interior moisture, as well. Anyway, that's how we've come to know and love burnt ends. I've pulled the point at much higher temps, rested for 30-40 minutes, cubed and back to open grates, but it just wasn't the same experience when they hit the plate...a bit drier, slightly overcooked and with a softer chew.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 15, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.
> 
> Yeah, if you cut across the packer to fit in the smoker, you have mostly point muscle on one end and mostly flat muscle on the other. Kind of simplifies the process for burnt ends, as you can grab the point at your desired I/T and work your magic while the flat stays behind to get happy.
> 
> ...


Eric, no foil pan next time I do burnt ends. I ate the last of those little beauties today. I got them more to the texture I wanted by sticking them in broiler pan in my countertop convection oven and broiled them at 450° for about 15 minutes. That darkened the bark and firmed up the outside of the meat a bit but they were still very tender and moist. The flavor was still 100% there. Pop, admittedly, no pop in the chew.

Yes, when after cutting a whole packer in two one side is mostly point muscle while the other is either mostly or all flat (depending where the brisket is sliced). But with the point the flat still runs below the point separated by that line of fat. But I learned a lesson with that. The flat under point was thinner than the flat half cut from the point half. It was so thin that the flat was overcooked when I sliced it from the point before chopping up the smoked point to make burnt ends. Gotta figure out how to avoid this next time. Problem is that I ate so much of the burnt ends yesterday I really don't want to eat any more for a week or two.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 15, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.
> ...


Yep, it does make a huge difference when you stay on open grates.

Hmm, the if you get overcooked flat under the point again, you could just pull it apart and give it a rough chop for sandwiches. I made a huge pulled beef brisket sandwich with a crusty french bread loaf with cheese & lettuce a while back that was KILLER. It can be a pretty amazing dining experience if you go off the reservation and just toss caution to the wind...LOL!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Yep, it does make a huge difference when you stay on open grates.
> 
> Hmm, the if you get overcooked flat under the point again, you could just pull it apart and give it a rough chop for sandwiches. I made a huge pulled beef brisket sandwich with a crusty french bread loaf with cheese & lettuce a while back that was KILLER. It can be a pretty amazing dining experience if you go off the reservation and just toss caution to the wind...LOL!!!
> 
> Eric


Eric--NOW you give me that idea for using the overcooked flat? NOW??????

But that's a great idea. Your idea works on several levels--all of them delicious. The wife and I love our crusty French bread. And where's there's bread in our house there's usually cheese of some type. We also love all types of lettuce. Hey, have you heard of AeroGarden? It's a countertop plant garden. We buy their seed packets for lettuce and herbs. It's extremely cool to watch that stuff growing in your kitchen. We use the lettuce in sandwiches and salads in addition to using the store bought stuff. The freshly grown herbs are amazing. You can also grow tomatoes but we had mixed results with that. At some point my wife wants to perfect making crusty French bread in her bread machine (she already makes her own hamburger and hot dog buns from scratch) but there are some really good take and bake loaves at major supermarkets now that are really good. Also we have a supermarket with a bakery that makes outstanding regular French and sourdough French loaves. Unfortunately we still have to buy the cheese for the sandwich and the mayo. Someday we'll make our own mayo. My wife does make this amazing ketchup from a recipe in a celebrity chef cookbook we bought at his restaurant. As you can see, we're really into home cooking.

What I'm getting at is if you really want to go off the res and lob a high hard caution into the wind, you could smoke a beef brisket with homemade rub and brush on homemade BBQ sauce and pile the sliced brisket onto homemade French bread and place the homegrown lettuce over that. As for me, when the rainy days stay away for a few days in a row I'm breaking out my smoker and either smoking up the whole packer brisket or just a flat that I also have in the freezer.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 18, 2016)

You're crackin' me up, Rick!!! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Yeah, I've dug around on the net for sprouting seeds, kits, etc, for growing greens, mainly...haven't pulled the trigger yet (dunno why not), but still have the bookmarks. Sprouts, greens, salad mixes all sound great to have fresh every day, and you know what went into them and how they've been handled.

Here's a teaser for ya...well, it may even be inspirational. I had to look, but this one's in my signature line..this was 6-1/2 years ago when I was still playin' with the SnP 40"...11.4lb packer (one of the smallest I've ever smoked):

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/90615/had-any-burnt-fingers-or-pulled-flat-lately-brisket-q-vew

Burnt Fingers (modified burnt ends) about to come out and play with our senses...these things flew off the platter so fast it was ridiculous:



Pulled flat on crusty french bread...had a helluva time cramming all the fillings into that loaf (all of the smaller flat, IIRC), and it didn't come through looking real pretty, but the eats were phenomenal...I think there were zero leftovers of burnt fingers or this sandwich:



Carnivore's delight...spare ribs, burnt fingers and pulled flat sammie...that's a ton of meat in there:



That was one of those smokes I did where I just went completely against the grain and wandered off the beaten path...but, then, I've been doing that for years...I mean, who pulls the flat, right? And, burnt fingers...what the heck is that? Ah, it was fun, and really good eating at the end of the day...two things that matter most to me when I cook.

Eric


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## brickguy221 (Sep 18, 2016)

I keep reading about burnt ends in this forum and how good they are.  Prior to lately, I have never heard of them. Exactly what are they like. I mean is the meat burnt all the way thru or is it just the crust burnt on the outside or what????


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 18, 2016)

Naw, Brickguy, the name is deceiving. Traditionally, at some BBQ joints, burnt ends are the edges trimmed off of brisket...the really dark crispy stuff. The way many of us make burnt ends here is to use the entire point muscle from the brisket. They are a unique texture and very addictive. Next time you decide to smoke a brisket, find a whole (packer) brisket and read up on BEs before you get ready to smoke it up. It is one of the treats you long for once you've had them and get them the way you like. Some do theirs differently than others because that's what they like, or maybe that's the only way they've tried them...anyway, there are different methods, from the internal temperature at which one cubes the point muscle (I go low, in the mid 150* range, other go closer to 190-200*)), to how they are finished (open grates or in a pan, sauced lightly or just more dry rub applied).

If I smoke up a whole brisket and don't make burnt ends? Oh, believe me when I say, that day may not end well for me. Everyone loves BEs here.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> You're crackin' me up, Rick!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eric, the problem with cracking people is the pressure to continue to keep being able to crack people. Too many people who can't take the pressure crack under the pressure. Whether they crack up or down depends upon their personal orientation.

That being said, I think you've left out quite a few steps here--like how you cut up the burnt fingers in the first place. So, you cook the entire point and then you cut it into fingers. And (I know you've heard this joke countless times), do you take the best brisket finger and then choose the person at the dinner table you like best and then give them the finger? I have more of these...

And I need to tutor you on the how I what I like to see in text accompanying Qview. For instance, I see white cheese inside the crusty french bread but what KIND of white cheese, sir? Looks like thick-sliced mozz which would be fortunate for me because I love mozz. Or really just about any cheese of any color.

Do you first slice up the flat into those rectangular shapes and then plop 'em onto the cooking rack? If so, why do you do this? Are those small hunks o' brisket also from the flat?  Why do you pull the flat after 5 hours? What's the typical IT when you pull it? Is it a whole flat or have you sliced it into rectangular segments?

Honestly what's confusing me is figuring out which is which from your original burnt fingers post and this brisket and burnt ends one. Are those rectangular shapes cut up flat or cut up point muscle? I like your against the grain thinking because it results in much more tender and easy to slice brain fibers. But besides that, I still have a whole packer brisket in my freezer and I like the prospect of burnt fingers better than burnt ends. It's far less hassle than chopping the brisket up into smaller burnt ends pieces. From your two posts and if I'm seeing it correctly, both the flat and the point seem to be cut up into rectangular sections and the burnt fingers seem to be a smaller version of the flat pieces. Is this right?

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 19, 2016)

Ha! Yeah, I always crack up...never down. If your calling is to crack people, best you stick with the program, right?

Never thought about giving anyone the finger when we plate up and sit down, but if I do I'll still save the bigger finger for myself...LOL!!!

Oh, I really went against the grain with the Burnt Fingers & Pulled Flat thread. That was just another one of my "what if" experiments where I set out to disprove the wide belief that I observed at the time: you can't pull the brisket flat because it's too lean. Well, OK, so, show me _why_ you can't pull the flat and I'll show you _how_ you can. Those who followed this line of thinking were not arrogant or ignorant...they were simply misinformed by someone's theory, or ill-tested experiment. If you don't prove or disprove a theory, then it's still nothing more than a theory. Call me a mad scientist (yeah, some have, and some still do on occasion)...call me a unknown quantity of unknown substances (a few have asked where I attained my higher education...I have none...I'm just a analytical thinker)...I've even called myself a rogue of sorts at times (before I realized the implication of malicious intent...no malicious intent here)...just don't ever call me after midnight. I'm just curious, and willing to step up, research and experiment to find new ways to achieve the universal goal...provide the best possible product and dining experience. What is best, anyway? Your best and my best are likely a wide-ranging list of variables, so how do you define best? That's open for discussion, however, ultimately it is the decision of the individual as to how to define and achieve said goal. In seeking my defined goal, I often find the answers to questions I haven't yet asked about methods that are considered traditional, or about non-traditional methods which I practice that evolve as I learn more. There are only rare circumstances in which I attempt to duplicate a previous meal item, including finished temp, texture, recipe, etc...to prove it as being repeatable, or, to decide if this particular food item satisfies my goal, so far as to not want for anything different. Times change...sometimes beliefs and opinions don't follow the changes and those individuals will continue down the same path, unaware of the benefits or unwilling to follow change...to each his/her own. I digressed...

Yeah, burnt fingers vs burnt ends is less processing for fingers. BFs (sure, you could call them best friends) are basically 1/2 the width of the point muscle at it's widest girth, then sliced into strips approx 1" thick. I have broke them down by splitting the strips down the center from the thickest portion of the point muscle, but stick to about 1" x 2" max width for finishing size. I cut BEs to approx 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" cubes...some end up a bit bigger. The result of BFs is a larger piece with less surface area per oz/lb for the formation of that jewel crust we love so much. I hardly notice it, though, as the crust is hard enough to maintain a rigid finger (just in case you do want to show it to someone...LOL!!!).

For the pulled flat, IIRC, I smoked it to around 200* IT, rested in foil, then pulled. For BE's/BFs, I used to go close to 200* before resting/cutting, but I found out several years ago that we liked the BEs texture and retained moisture better if I rested an hour or so after the mid 150s IT, then finished processing for their final stage on open grates. I've tried just dusting with dry rub and with tossing in a bowl after drizzling with a light coat of thick Bbq sauce...we like the sauced version better, probably due to a deeper caramelizing and crisper crust. One of the few times I ever sauce my smoked meats, BTW. You know this already from previous posts, but there is absolutely no comparison between BEs pan finished and open-grate finished. Panned protects the meat from the dry heat which forms the crust...keeps the surface moist for longer, sure, but if it's crust you desire, open grates is the only way to get it, short of hitting them with about 400-500* indirect heat, or under a hot broiler. Either way, unless you turn over the BEs/BFs periodically when finishing hot & fast, you won't get a crisp crust on all sides. It would work, if that's your game...though it may carry some cons along with it, such as meat/sauce stuck to the pan...I don't want to lose any product taking short-cuts. I usually am running a low & slow smoker with BEs on the menu, so I opt for open grates and longer finishing time...good things come to those who wait...and, open-grate finish requires no fuss once they hit the grates. Toss 'em in and when they're done, they're done.

The cheese in the sammie is mozz...think I mentioned it the linked thread...you'd have to read it know. That sammie meat was all from hand-pulled flat...long strands about 3/4" thick all placed length-wise on the bread loaf, then sliced about 2 to 2-1/2" wide and plated on it's side. Slicing is cross-grain, so yes, it gives a more tender bite and chew in the sammie, as the meat chunks/fibers are only as long as the width of the bread.

Oh, I missed this one...the rectangular shapes you mention on the plate, I assume? (I know, ass-u-me) That's the finished burnt fingers, in all their glory. Weird part about BFs is that I don't remember making them since that thread...why? Maybe my memory is REALLY bad. Maybe we liked BEs better than BFs...be it overall texture, or that a BF is several bites while a BE is one or two bites...huh, I just tried to answer a question I haven't previously asked. I'll just have to try BFs again soon and find out for sure...uh, that would actually give me a justifiable reason to smoke a whole beef brisket with only 2 people in the house. See what you did to me, Rick? HA-HA-HAAAAAAA!!!

If I missed anything else, it was due to sorting through your humor...your fault, not mine...LOL!!!

Later, brother!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 21, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Ha! Yeah, I always crack up...never down. If your calling is to crack people, best you stick with the program, right?
> 
> Never thought about giving anyone the finger when we plate up and sit down, but if I do I'll still save the bigger finger for myself...LOL!!!
> 
> ...


Eric, whenever my wife or I have properly cooked a brisket--either slow cooked in a slow cooker, a Dutch oven, or my smoker, it's always pulled apart. Some people may think that's overcooked but it's the way we like it. Frequently part of the flat will still slice for great brisket sandwiches will other parts will shred.

You said never to call you after midnight. That set my brain a-turnin'. Do you remember an old Stones tune called Midnight Rambler? Or the Clapton tune After Midnight? Maybe I can call you the Before Midnight Analytical Thinking Mad Scientist? It suits you! I also like to experiment with each smoke, trying this or that technique. What if I smoke this brisket flat naked while I wrap the other one? What if I cook these racks of St. Louis style ribs on my Weber over charcoal briquettes and wood chips or pellets and at the same time cook these baby backs in my smoker over wood pellets? Given they're different cuts of pork ribs but how different or similar will both sets of racks taste? However, your ideas for experiments go far beyond what I think of. Do you also experiment with your own dry rubs and/or mops or finish sauces? After reading this last post of yours I really wish we were neighbors. Not only to taste your Q but to watch you at work. You so rarely meet creative individuals applying their thinking skills to outdoor cooking. I really love that stuff but there's no one to share it with that I know of in my area.

It's a poor smoker who blames his forgetfulness upon the expert wit and humor of others, my friend. But besides that, I'm in your same boat. Only the wife and I in the home so it's brisket for two. I do share some with my favorite bro-in-law. Both our grown kids have flown. My son doesn't like beef brisket anyway (he's no fruit from _my _loins!) and I think my daughter likes brisket OK but I can never remember. But as I've said I've got that 14 lb. whole packer brisket in the freezer and I'm gonna smoke it up whether or not it's just for the two of us. BTW, my wife didn't eat ONE BE that I made last week. Too bad that left all of them for me...

With my first attempt at burnt ends I used Jeff Phillips' recipe as a guide. I had cooked only the point (with flat meat under the fat layer) and pulled it at 201° as you've already read. I free formed the cutting of the BE so they were different shapes and thicknesses. On any TV cooking competition show I would've been sent home packing. It seems like it'd be a big hassle to continually turn BEs over on the rack. BFs would be much easier because of their larger size. But with my next stab at BEs, I'm going to follow the road map you laid out. Unlike you I don't measure anything before cutting or slicing. No, I tell a lie. When prepping Chinese food I do my best to follow directions for length, width and thickness of meat and also for the vegies. After grilling and BBQ (smoking) stir frying Asian food in a wok is one of my favorite ways to cook food. Now, don't get me started on Panini presses and pressure cookers. They're both next on that list.

When you wrap the brisket in foil to rest it, do you stick it inside an insulated cooler or leave it on a cutting board in the kitchen or something? I've become a big cooler fan. The brisket's wrapped in foil but I place it at the bottom of the cooler and then place a couple of thick towels over it. It'll stay hot to warm inside the cooler for hours, just doing its juices redistribution thing. After it's cooled I vacuum seal the leftovers which serves to intensify the smoky and other flavors. I do my best to leave the vacuum sealed packet in the fridge for a couple of weeks before chawing down on the brisket again. Same thing works well for smoked cheese. 3 weeks in a vacuum sealed packet in the fridge. Delightful and smokily delicious flavors result.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 23, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Eric, whenever my wife or I have properly cooked a brisket--either slow cooked in a slow cooker, a Dutch oven, or my smoker, it's always pulled apart. Some people may think that's overcooked but it's the way we like it. Frequently part of the flat will still slice for great brisket sandwiches will other parts will shred.
> 
> *Well, heck, maybe I should just go for pulled flat and BEs/BFs all the time.*
> 
> ...


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## daricksta (Sep 26, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


>


Eric,

I was too busy to check in with SMF last week and all that activity has left me pooped. I just wanted to let you know I will read your entire post but it will be later today. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. Just want to be fully awake and alert for reading so my comments, as always, are finely honed yet surprisingly accessible with a modicum of humor sprinkled on top to make it pop.

And speaking of tops and pops,  was always a Beatles fan. I liked some Stones songs but the Fab Four will always be Top of the Pops to me. I'll be back later. Besides got my own post to make about my Maverick ET-733 and what I learned about it yesterday while smoking up some teriyaki beef jerky.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 26, 2016)

Hey, Rick,  I can understand that as good as anyone. I just spent the entire weekend low & slow smoking, rotisserie smoking, smoke/char-grilling lunch and dinner for a smaller gathering of family & friends. One meat and two sides for each meal Saturday, then one meat only for lunch and two meats plus one side for dinner. I just got home from work and still have to finish unloading the rest of my gear and supplies from Sunday night and I'm still recovering from the weekend...no, not brown-bottle flue. Just tired, especially after getting up at 4:15 this morning. That chore might have to wait for another day.

Sharp wit does not appear in the absence of sleep.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 27, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Hey, Rick,  I can understand that as good as anyone. I just spent the entire weekend low & slow smoking, rotisserie smoking, smoke/char-grilling lunch and dinner for a smaller gathering of family & friends. One meat and two sides for each meal Saturday, then one meat only for lunch and two meats plus one side for dinner. I just got home from work and still have to finish unloading the rest of my gear and supplies from Sunday night and I'm still recovering from the weekend...no, not brown-bottle flue. Just tired, especially after getting up at 4:15 this morning. That chore might have to wait for another day.
> 
> Sharp wit does not appear in the absence of sleep.
> 
> Eric


Eric, this is the heck that is my life. Almost every morning I wake up at 4 am, no matter when I went to sleep. Many times it's between 2-3 am. And I can almost relate to what you just wrote. On Sunday I both smoked a bunch of my first attempt at Teriyaki Beef Jerky (I've smoked two batches of regular beef jerky before this) while at the same time I prepped and stir fried my 2nd attempt at Sweet and Sour Pork for the wife. Both turned out pretty good--the S&SP will need double the sauce next time. Jury's out on the TBJ. I liked the taste OK but for me smoked foods like that need at least a week in a vacuum sealed bag for the flavors to distribute and meld and develop and, well, like that. I took photos only of the "Before". I have to deliver a sample package to a friend who's said he'd be willing to pay me for supplying him with TBJ this weekend. When I un-vacuum the seal I'll take photos of the "After" and upload all photos to SMF.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 27, 2016)

SmokinAl said:


> Well it sure looks good from here!
> 
> Al


Thanks, Al.

Is there any easy way to mark this post for future reference? Among my plans for next year is to smoke my own brisket pastrami ala Katz Delicatessen style. But I want to check out all your recipes to for ideas and, well, recipes, for smoking other stuff. I have a couple of friends who gave me a gourmet smoking cookbook last year which I also want to try out. And then there's all the grilling stuff I want to make. So many recipes, so little time.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 27, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


>


*I wasn't a fan of Stones, but I know the Clapton tune. Before Midnight Analytical Mad Scientist works. I've only made a sauce once...experiment with the ingredients of one our favorite pork dry rubs,  but I kinda screwed it up when used tomato for part of the base. It ended up tasting like a really fancy marinara...never had the time to try it again without tomato, but it's still out there. Some of the guys thought it sounded pretty good, but it just didn't get it done for me. *

I looked at the recipe. I agree. You had me with all the ingredients other than the tomatoes and apple sauce and blueberries. I think the tart cherries and everything else would work fine. That pork shoulder/butt looks awesome.

*  do mess with rubs a lot...way more than I realize, I'm sure. I started using dried fruits in rubs about 5 years ago, along with dried red bell peppers. Hawg Heaven Rub was a big hit for a few years, then I came up with a twist...Blueberry/Cherry/RBP Rub...then just recently I combination of the two, minus a few ingredient, plus a few more...that's when Wild Hawg Rub was born. They're all good, but Wild Hawg Rub was developed specifically for what I felt I was missing with ribs. It would be too mild and too smooth for pork shoulder, IMHO, but on ribs we think it's the best we've had so far. Gonna fire up for 3 slabs of BBRs for Saturday dinner and toss Wild Hawg on 'em...I've only made ribs with this rub 2 times at home, once on a road-trip, once again at home, and now it'll be for a local gathering of about a dozen. It's been good to me, for sure...no complaints from anyone...in fact they rave about this rub more than any, so far.*

*I've never really mess with mops much...a little here and there about 7-8 years ago. Never used finishing sauces much either, but they do have their merits. I like to hand-pull my pork on demand, that way there's peak moisture when served...unadulterated chunks of pork with all their natural moisture...pork, rub, smoke and a wicked hard, heavy bark...it just turns out great every time.*

I only use a couple of dry rubs, mostly a KC Sweet And Smoky recipe from Steven Raichlen. I am a simple man of simple tastes after all. I'll look into yours because, honestly, as supremely creative and witty as I am, I'm totally unimaginative when it comes to creating my own rubs and sauces since the huge world of possible combos and the tasting of every batch is just to intimidating and besides I lack the patience. I like to follow the culinary trails blazed before me, tweaking a recipe to my taste if I don't totally like it.

*Yeah, I let one of my boys take my Smoke Vault 24" with him to his job, and I rarely wish for that large of smoker capacity anymore. My arsenal of 3 Weber kettle and the WSM-18 handle everything I need pretty well, and I like cooking with hardwood lump or charcoal far better than messing with a gas valve. Not to mention the better flavors imparted into the food...I can't get that with a gasser, no matter what I do.*

Gasser? What gasser? For me, the only grilling fuel for my Weber 22." OTS is charcoal. I bought my MES 30, though, because for the smoker I wanted a constant heat source (electricity) without futzing around with wood chunks, charcoal briquettes, or liquid propane.

*I don't really measure my cuts, either...just eyeball it. I try to keep them uniform, but there's nothing wrong with variances with BEs/BFs, because the variations in thickness will yield different textures and levels of doneness. That can be beneficial in finding that sweet spot when you're still trying to find out how you really like them. I'm an Asian Stir-Fry fan, myself. Then there the camp DOs, the 15" Lodge CI skillet, the 14" x 16" CI griddle. I haven't used my camp DOs for a long time...too long...rust took them over. They're cheapo china junk Camp Chef, but still costed me $40 a piece. I could still use them with a foil liner, I guess.*

Eric,

Good. If my cooking style resembles yours than I'm doing fine. I've got OK knife skills but I'm week on the dicing, cubing and mincing. I'd be the first one sent home in any cooking competition. *What are camp DOs?* And I love all things Lodge. Got 2 CI skillets of different sizes (gave me daughter one of my 12" skillets) and I have an 11" grill pan. Also got my wife Made in USA 7 qt. enamel coated Dutch oven (which are all now made in China).

*It's been so long since I've smoked a whole brisket...since I started playing with the wet-to-dry smoke chamber method I mainly separate and trim lean. Back in the day, yeah, I'd foil the flat, wrap in about 3" of towels and rest for several hours. The point almost never saw foil...open board rest, cut-up and tossed in sauce and back on open grates to finish. By the time the flat was rested the BEs were done. With wet-to-dry you have to time your smoke a little closer due to the resting method if you're preserving the bark (no foiling...unless you want to soften the bark...it does get pretty intense, I'll admit)...doesn't hold at temp for as long, but still quite a while before it's really cooling down.*

*OK, that's not a typo, is it? 3 weeks in the fridge with smoked and processed brisket? Man, I'd never be brave enough to go more than 5 days, and that's only if it's still an intact whole smoked meat. Although I've never vac-packed smoked meat for the fridge, either. I do need to grab another vac unit...one I have was never worth a hoot...melted a hole in the bag right in the center of the seal, when it was working. I removed the heat strip from that one and use it strictly for sealing dried foods in canning jars.*

The three weeks referred to smoked cheese. When I read up on it before doing my first batch all the advice said to let it age in the fridge for 3 weeks. Why 3 weeks? Why is 16 years old sweet? Why must you wash your hands for 20 seconds after going to the bathroom? Why must you climb 29,029 ft. (Mt. Everest) to reach the highest peak in the world? Because they say so. With brisket we eat as soon as it's done and then over the next few days. Ever since I forgot about the leftover from one of the best briskets I ever smoked and had to throw it away, I vacuum seal all leftover brisket. We have a Food Saver which I bow to and smooch every day in gratitude for how long it keeps most foods (except soft cheeses like mozz) spoil-free. I even bought a Quick Marinator attachment for it which is incredible for cutting marinating hours down to 30 minutes or so. We get ours at Costco because if they go bad you bring them back for a full refund and get a newer model!

_*  Not sure what you mean by wet-to-dry smoke chamber method*_. Could you elucidate please?

*Oh, speaking of aging smoked foods, have you ever smoked potatoes and aged the leftovers in the fridge for a couple-three days? It's a whole new smoked potato a few days after. Just don't use your wife's favorite tupperware for aging...she'll string you up when she puts a delicate food into for a few days and it comes out smoked. Ziploc bags will suffice for taters.*

Haven't smoked anything like that yet. Honestly, it's enough of a challenge just to smoke meats and cheeses. And besides, I have to wheel my smoker out of the garage and set it up outside the house and then I have to clean stuff and wheel it back to the garage after use. Oh, we have had plenty of damaged decades-old Tupperware storage containers. That's why for long term storage I vacuum seal. It also keeps ice crystals and freezer burn off the frozen stuff. Ziploc bags just don't do it for us. Thrown away foods that got freezer burn inside of them.

See? I FINALLY responded!

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 27, 2016)

Rick,

Camp DO's are charcoal-fired Dutch Ovens...the ones with legs on bottom and a lid with a rim to hold coals on top. You fire them with charcoal on bottom only, unless you're roasting or baking, then you add coals on the lid. Temp is determined by the ambient conditions and the number of coals under the oven and on top...usually more more on top than underneath as it's radiant heat-only for top, while the bottom heat is radiant and convective (more efficient). More info on that when and if the time comes. Camp DOs are one of the easiest to use outdoor cookers, IMHO, and you can create some gourmet meals with as little or as much effort as you're willing to give it, such as Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder. Of course, I couldn't stop there...Smoked Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder was the ultimate rendition of the recipe...all ingredients smoked, and the dish finished in the smoker...crazy, yes, but not so crazy once you taste it.

I haven't tried breads in DOs yet, but I've been wanting to try a no-knead long-fermented bread for a long time...I've read they have a more defined and well developed, deep flavor. Play with the humidity variables a bit by cracking the lid open at the right time and you can create a nice artisan-style hard crust. OK, enough about DOs and breads...that kinda talk just makes me hungry, and I just ate a BIG dinner.

I developed the Wet-to-Dry Smoke Chamber Method for smoking lean trimmed meats and starting your smoke with a smaller amount of water in the water pan and allowing it to evaporate so the pan is dry during the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the expected cooking time, depending on your preferences. Obviously this method was developed for vertical smokers, but could actually be incorporated into horizontal pits, as well.

Oh, yeah, 3 weeks for vac-sealed smoked cheese sounds about right. A month or so into aging and it could start to form mold...that's where waxing is a better packing method...you can age for ages with worries of mold. Of course the softer cheeses won't age as long without issues, but sharp cheddar and other hard cheese really age well over long periods of time...as in 20+ years. Fridge temp is actually too cold for cheese aging...slows things way down, but doesn't hurt anything. Mr T's smoked cheese thread explains a lot of that in detail...he knows cheese very well, among other things: http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/123130/mr-ts-smoked-cheese-from-go-to-show-w-q-view

Oh, dude, if you like potatoes but haven't smoked them...oh, man, this is a MUST DO!!! And, as already said, smoke more than you'll eat that day, because then you get to age them a couple days and REALLY enjoy the benefits of smoking them.

BTW, don't sweat slow responses...I'm having trouble keeping up with things myself...too many irons in the fire at the same time. That's what I get for jumping in on too many threads here...gotta let things cool down a bit some times.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 28, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Rick,
> 
> Camp DO's are charcoal-fired Dutch Ovens...the ones with legs on bottom and a lid with a rim to hold coals on top. You fire them with charcoal on bottom only, unless you're roasting or baking, then you add coals on the lid. Temp is determined by the ambient conditions and the number of coals under the oven and on top...usually more more on top than underneath as it's radiant heat-only for top, while the bottom heat is radiant and convective (more efficient). More info on that when and if the time comes. Camp DOs are one of the easiest to use outdoor cookers, IMHO, and you can create some gourmet meals with as little or as much effort as you're willing to give it, such as Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder. Of course, I couldn't stop there...Smoked Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder was the ultimate rendition of the recipe...all ingredients smoked, and the dish finished in the smoker...crazy, yes, but not so crazy once you taste it.
> 
> ...


You guys with your fancy shmancy acronyms and abbreviations! I love and adore DO cooking but have never did it campfire side. Never even heard of a Dutch oven until about 10 years ago when my wife told me she'd always wanted one since her mother had one. My mom never owned a Dutch oven. She had a big aluminum pot and those old fashioned pressure cookers with the wriggling vent caps that could be launched across the room. (I own a higher tech, stove top pressure cooker which has become one of my favorite cooking appliances.) Anyways, I bought her that Lodge and even I get to use it sometimes along with our Crock Pot. As for bread making, the wife's the expert in that department though she hasn't made no-knead bread in the DO. I've got no desire to make bread though I've some basic experience making pasta and pizza doughs. 

In my electric smoker I foil over the water pan. The thing's so well-insulated I don't worry about the meat drying out. And you've convinced me. I'm going to pick a recipe where potatoes will be perfect as a side. Being an electric smoker I'll need to crisp up the potato skin in the oven afterwards, just like you do with poultry skin. Didn't know that you could age them in the fridge.

Actually, from a flavor standpoint, vacuum-sealed smoked cheese ages extremely well in the fridge. You can see the color deepen over the 3 weeks and the smoky goodness further permeates the cheese as it distributes itself around. Same goes for vacuum sealed brisket or any smoked meat. What seems like disparate flavors when the smoked meat or cheese is done seem to meld and blend with each other, creating a culinary confluence of commingled delectable delights.

Thanks for the comment about slow responses. This is all my allotted SMF time for today. 

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 28, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Rick,
> 
> Camp DO's are charcoal-fired Dutch Ovens...the ones with legs on bottom and a lid with a rim to hold coals on top. You fire them with charcoal on bottom only, unless you're roasting or baking, then you add coals on the lid. Temp is determined by the ambient conditions and the number of coals under the oven and on top...usually more more on top than underneath as it's radiant heat-only for top, while the bottom heat is radiant and convective (more efficient). More info on that when and if the time comes. Camp DOs are one of the easiest to use outdoor cookers, IMHO, and you can create some gourmet meals with as little or as much effort as you're willing to give it, such as Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder. Of course, I couldn't stop there...Smoked Shrimp & Sausage Corn Chowder was the ultimate rendition of the recipe...all ingredients smoked, and the dish finished in the smoker...crazy, yes, but not so crazy once you taste it.
> 
> ...


Eric, I prevaricated. THIS uses up my allotted SMF time for today. do you know how to flag or bookmark a post as a favorite. That was a great one about smoking cheeses. I want to find it easily without having to refer back to the link in your post. Thanks.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 28, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Eric, I prevaricated. THIS uses up my allotted SMF time for today. do you know how to flag or bookmark a post as a favorite. That was a great one about smoking cheeses. I want to find it easily without having to refer back to the link in your post. Thanks.
> 
> Rick


Ah, that I can definitely help you with. Just hover over the link, right-click and select *Add Link to Bookmarks*. If you have your book marks partitioned into additional folders and sub-folders it makes finding your bookmarks easier when you want/need to. Once you get several hundred bookmarks as I do, there's no other way to keep track of them.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 30, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Ah, that I can definitely help you with. Just hover over the link, right-click and select *Add Link to Bookmarks*. If you have your book marks partitioned into additional folders and sub-folders it makes finding your bookmarks easier when you want/need to. Once you get several hundred bookmarks as I do, there's no other way to keep track of them.
> 
> Eric


Eric, reading over your instructions it just struck me that you use Firefox. But I was misunderstood. What I wanted to know is if there's a way to bookmark posts/threads within SMF? I know that I can save the page to Favorites in IE or Bookmarks in FF or Google Chrome. But it would be nice to have a list of favorite threads or something that I could click on within SMF.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 30, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Eric, reading over your instructions it just struck me that you use Firefox. But I was misunderstood. What I wanted to know is if there's a way to bookmark posts/threads within SMF? I know that I can save the page to Favorites in IE or Bookmarks in FF or Google Chrome. But it would be nice to have a list of favorite threads or something that I could click on within SMF.
> 
> Rick


Ah, I see. Yeah, even after all these years hangin' on SMF, with site upgrades, etc, I still don't know of a way to do that, other than to compose a new PM to yourself and paste the link(s) to pages of interest. Then, as your list grows, just copy/paste all included links and notes to a new PM, deleting the older PM afterwards (or you may run yourself out of PM space). The subscribed threads list can be enormous unless you lose interest and decide to unsubscribe to a ton of threads (time consuming process), so I really don't see any other way at this point.

That's all I can think of. The alternative is to write yourself a public message on your profile page...not the best option, but the PMs will work...I just sent myself one with a link and that duck flies...now, if I could only get my dog to hunt...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






And yes, FireFox user here...for about 4 or 5 years. Definitely have no reason to look back at Explorer or Edge when I upgraded from Win8 to Win10.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 30, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Ah, I see. Yeah, even after all these years hangin' on SMF, with site upgrades, etc, I still don't know of a way to do that, other than to compose a new PM to yourself and paste the link(s) to pages of interest. Then, as your list grows, just copy/paste all included links and notes to a new PM, deleting the older PM afterwards (or you may run yourself out of PM space). The subscribed threads list can be enormous unless you lose interest and decide to unsubscribe to a ton of threads (time consuming process), so I really don't see any other way at this point.
> 
> That's all I can think of. The alternative is to write yourself a public message on your profile page...not the best option, but the PMs will work...I just sent myself one with a link and that duck flies...now, if I could only get my dog to hunt...
> 
> ...


Until your comment above, I thought you were relatively new to SMF since I had never noticed your posts AND I didn't read your profile. You predate me by 4 years here! The PM idea is a good one which I shall mull over. You mean there's a finite amount of space for PMs in our accounts? It's this nuts and bolts stuff I don't know. But I have had a ton of PMs in the past, deleting the ones I no longer needed.

You mean your dog won't hunt the duck? I thought his job was only to point skyward and bringing that flying dog down was your job at which time your dog converts into a retriever. As for dogs that won't hunt, I tried Windows 10 for maybe not quite ten minutes and went back to Windows 7. Wish it was the Pro version but the desktop I bought from Costco came with Premium. Since then they no longer carry that brand and all the desktops and laptops come with Pro. Anyway, I didn't like 10 at all--not the desktop with its lack of a taskbar. Also, I read up on W10 and it was designed to primarily sell you stuff. Both my wife and I are more comfortable with 7.







  Yeah, but it's my thread so it's ok since I'm party to the hijacking, which I am.

Rick


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## brickguy221 (Sep 30, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Until your comment above, I thought you were relatively new to SMF since I had never noticed your posts AND I didn't read your profile. You predate me by 4 years here! The PM idea is a good one which I shall mull over. You mean there's a finite amount of space for PMs in our accounts? It's this nuts and bolts stuff I don't know. But I have had a ton of PMs in the past, deleting the ones I no longer needed.
> 
> You mean your dog won't hunt the duck? I thought his job was only to point skyward and bringing that flying dog down was your job at which time your dog converts into a retriever. As for dogs that won't hunt, I tried Windows 10 for maybe not quite ten minutes and went back to Windows 7. Wish it was the Pro version but the desktop I bought from Costco came with Premium. Since then they no longer carry that brand and all the desktops and laptops come with Pro. Anyway, I didn't like 10 at all--not the desktop with its lack of a taskbar. Also, I read up on W10 and it was designed to primarily sell you stuff. Both my wife and I are more comfortable with 7.
> 
> ...


I have windows 10 and no problems with it. What it is,   is an upgrade of windows 7 from what I have been told. Anyhow, it works perfect for me. No problems since day 1 with it. 

Maybe your not liking it as good as 7 may be how you have everything set-up on it, is that possible?  My Son in CA helped set mine up and install things on it. He has been deeply involved in computers and things for over 11-12+ years or more. In fact he built his own  first computer and has built many more since then. He too prefers 10 over 7. Just disgusted that aol has gotten worse over the years.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 30, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Until your comment above, I thought you were relatively new to SMF since I had never noticed your posts AND I didn't read your profile. You predate me by 4 years here! The PM idea is a good one which I shall mull over. You mean there's a finite amount of space for PMs in our accounts? It's this nuts and bolts stuff I don't know. But I have had a ton of PMs in the past, deleting the ones I no longer needed.
> 
> You mean your dog won't hunt the duck? I thought his job was only to point skyward and bringing that flying dog down was your job at which time your dog converts into a retriever. As for dogs that won't hunt, I tried Windows 10 for maybe not quite ten minutes and went back to Windows 7. Wish it was the Pro version but the desktop I bought from Costco came with Premium. Since then they no longer carry that brand and all the desktops and laptops come with Pro. Anyway, I didn't like 10 at all--not the desktop with its lack of a taskbar. Also, I read up on W10 and it was designed to primarily sell you stuff. Both my wife and I are more comfortable with 7.
> 
> ...


Yeah, been around here a while now...just past the 8yr mark...doesn't seem that long because it's all been good fun, good food and good people to share the ride with along the way.

I think it's a 50ct of PMs for standard accounts...it may have changed over the years, but I haven't read up on that for quite a while.

Oh, Win10 SUX!!! I have a Asus notebook that came with Win8 almost 2 years ago, which is mainly a tablet OS for touch-screen devices. Word is that Win8 will become obsolete soon due to lack of support/updates. The Win10 upgrade was free until July, 2016, IIRC, so I jumped on just for support/security updates. It's really just another BS touch-screen OS with more crap that only a select few will want or need. I spent a couple hours uninstalling loads of crap...uh, I mean useless apps. Seriously, if you want to buy and/or install apps, why not find it online? They're dumbing-down people in so many ways with all of the "oh, look what we did for you here...and we did it for FREE!!!" It's ridiculous to even think about the angles they're coming from when they drop all this garbage into a OS package...they must REALLY either think people are absolutely stupid, or too lazy to type in a search.


Brickguy221 said:


> I have windows 10 and no problems with it. What it is,   is an upgrade of windows 7 from what I have been told. Anyhow, it works perfect for me. No problems since day 1 with it.
> 
> Maybe your not liking it as good as 7 may be how you have everything set-up on it, is that possible?  My Son in CA helped set mine up and install things on it. He has been deeply involved in computers and things for over 11-12+ years or more. In fact he built his own  first computer and has built many more since then. He too prefers 10 over 7. Just disgusted that aol has gotten worse over the years.


This wasn't directed at me, but to clarify, Win7 was a far better platform and much more user friendly than Win8 or Win10, without a bunch of garbage applications and "app store junk". Even my OLD machine from back in the early 90's with Windows 3.1 had a spread-sheet application and pretty decent word-processor with templates. Win8/10 doesn't have ANY of that!!! I had Win7 for several years until my desktop PC crashed...I never thought I'd say I hate a computer, but, well, yeah, with Win8 I learned to hate them, and I've been using computers since 1993 (when they costed a ton for 1% of what you can get now for 10% of what they costed then). Anyway, I figured the upgrade to Win10 couldn't be worse, but there's even more useless crap that goes along with it.

The only real problems with Win8 or Win10 are the MS browsers that they pack with it...MS Explorer 10 (or something) with Win8, and MS Edge with Win10. I've had issues with MS Explorer in the past and they went through a ton of security updates since then, but I lost all trust in their browsers long ago. FireFox browser has a boat-load of add-ons to get it the way you want it for security, privacy and ease of use, and nothing you don't want. You have to choose what to add and you can ignore what you don't want...if you don't add something, then, it's not part of the package...simple. When I saw the options for FF, I thought: "FINALLY, someone with the user in mind!!!"

Oh, BTW, I don't use typical search engines such as google, yahoo, etc, either...StartPage and a few others for FireFox have been good to work with, and they're private.

What drives me nuts with Win10 is the constant updates...they are almost weekly lately and it wastes tons of my time for installs. I need to find the settings for this and see if I can stop the junk updates and only do the high-priority/security updates. Huh, I just realized, with Win7, I could choose what not to install and delete the prompt for those while updating what was actually needed...wow, I miss that.

Eric


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## dr k (Oct 2, 2016)

@forluvofsmoke
In 1998 I got my Compaq Presario 5170 Windows Pentium II for $2k with printer and scanner that has a wopping 256MB of Ram. Lol I work from home and need it to send/receive faxes and electronically store them like emails. Needless to say it's only for offline use and its a PITA to start because on start ups the screen freezes and you have to hold down the power button to force a power off and restart, doing this several times before the tower successfully powers up. So I have disabled the power management to never sleep or turn off otherwise I'll miss faxed in orders. I did get a back up fax many years ago that answers in four rings incase my computer that answers in two rings craters. If it wasn't for the need to fax in my line of business then it would just be a glorified boat anchor. It works great scanning and faxing so you can view pages like an email before sending so you know exactly how it will turn out on the receivers end. I do have a window 7 laptop for all other computer needs which is way better on SMF with uploading pics and posting than a phone. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Oct 2, 2016)

Brickguy221 said:


> I have windows 10 and no problems with it. What it is,   is an upgrade of windows 7 from what I have been told. Anyhow, it works perfect for me. No problems since day 1 with it.
> 
> Maybe your not liking it as good as 7 may be how you have everything set-up on it, is that possible?  My Son in CA helped set mine up and install things on it. He has been deeply involved in computers and things for over 11-12+ years or more. In fact he built his own  first computer and has built many more since then. He too prefers 10 over 7. Just disgusted that aol has gotten worse over the years.


My wife and I are used to Windows and its traditional graphic interface. We use the taskbar and the Start Menu all the time, both things W10 chose to hide with its Desktop. For me, it took me more steps to get to where I wanted to be with W10 instead of starting off right there with W7. And, as I wrote, W10 loaded the Desktop with links to stores to buy media and gaming stuff that I have no interest in. I read that one big reason why MS could offer the upgrade free was because of the marketing stuff that was on the Desktop. No idea when MS will stop supporting W7 with security updates but I'll deal with it after that.

Also, I'm surprised people still subscribe to AOL unless they still have dial up internet service. We have cable broadband and we connect directly to the internet; no need to go through another ISP. I think AOL is worse these days because they've bleed a whole amount of their subscriber base. I don't understand the ongoing need for it and ISPs like EarthLink. Why use their cable or DSL modems when you can either rent from your local cable or phone company or even go out and buy your own modem? We've had cable internet for 15 years now with the local cable TV company being our ISP. We use them only internet only, not TV.


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## daricksta (Oct 2, 2016)

Dr K said:


> @forluvofsmoke
> In 1998 I got my Compaq Presario 5170 Windows Pentium II for $2k with printer and scanner that has a wopping 256MB of Ram. Lol I work from home and need it to send/receive faxes and electronically store them like emails. Needless to say it's only for offline use and its a PITA to start because on start ups the screen freezes and you have to hold down the power button to force a power off and restart, doing this several times before the tower successfully powers up. So I have disabled the power management to never sleep or turn off otherwise I'll miss faxed in orders. I did get a back up fax many years ago that answers in four rings incase my computer that answers in two rings craters. If it wasn't for the need to fax in my line of business then it would just be a glorified boat anchor. It works great scanning and faxing so you can view pages like an email before sending so you know exactly how it will turn out on the receivers end. I do have a window 7 laptop for all other computer needs which is way better on SMF with uploading pics and posting than a phone.
> -Kurt


Interesting. Our first desktop was a Compaq Presario (don't remember the model number) which we bought at Costco for $1700 in 1997. I wound up returning it a few weeks later and paying maybe slightly less for a custom-made desktop. In 2000 I completed a 1 week PC tech certification class so after that I was able to build and service desktop computers myself. I no longer build them since they're cheaper to buy but I can swap out components and troubleshoot/repair/service.  But I wasn't trained to work on laptops so unfortunately they're outside by realm of expertise until I get an old working one to fool around with.


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## daricksta (Oct 2, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Yeah, been around here a while now...just past the 8yr mark...doesn't seem that long because it's all been good fun, good food and good people to share the ride with along the way.
> 
> I think it's a 50ct of PMs for standard accounts...it may have changed over the years, but I haven't read up on that for quite a while.
> 
> ...


MS Edge instead of IE? I hated it. I'm still comfortable with IE and the other browsers I use. With Edge my Norton security apps were incompatible along with other stuff. I use Google and sometimes DuckDuckGo for search engines. I just do whatever's easiest. I use IE, FF and Chrome in that order of browsers. Overall I like IE but it crashes a lot more now than it ever has. I've had some of that happen with FF. Could be some of the add ons, I don't know and it doesn't happen enough to bother me enough to find out. I've downloaded some add ons for all the browsers but not a lot. I'm not a big browsers utilities guy. I download programs for what I need that integrate with browsers but can also work independently. I also choose which Windows updates to install. I found out that the printer driver update screwed up my Canon printer.

I have W7 configured to download and install major updates only. Every so often when I go out to the computer in the morning it rebooted itself to install those updates. From what you've written, W10 would drive me nuts. In fact, in the 10-20 minutes I had it installed it DID drive me nuts. That's why I reverted back to W7.


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## brickguy221 (Oct 2, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Yeah, been around here a while now...just past the 8yr mark...doesn't seem that long because it's all been good fun, good food and good people to share the ride with along the way.
> 
> I think it's a 50ct of PMs for standard accounts...it may have changed over the years, but I haven't read up on that for quite a while.
> 
> ...


Myself & my family liked Windows 7 really well and hated Windows 8 and even finally canceled Windows 8 and returned to Windows 7 and stayed there until Windows 10 came out of which we love. I got a new Dell Lap Top recently of which came with the latest version of Windows 10 and not have a single problem nor complaint thus far ... ( knock on wood ... lol ) ... 

It appears that people like myself,  like Windows 10 while others like yourself don't like Windows 10, so the bottom line here is "to each his own". 


forluvofsmoke said:


> Yeah, been around here a while now...just past the 8yr mark...doesn't seem that long because it's all been good fun, good food and good people to share the ride with along the way.
> 
> I think it's a 50ct of PMs for standard accounts...it may have changed over the years, but I haven't read up on that for quite a while.
> 
> ...





forluvofsmoke said:


> Yeah, been around here a while now...just past the 8yr mark...doesn't seem that long because it's all been good fun, good food and good people to share the ride with along the way.
> 
> I think it's a 50ct of PMs for standard accounts...it may have changed over the years, but I haven't read up on that for quite a while.
> 
> ...





daRicksta said:


> My wife and I are used to Windows and its traditional graphic interface. We use the taskbar and the Start Menu all the time, both things W10 chose to hide with its Desktop. For me, it took me more steps to get to where I wanted to be with W10 instead of starting off right there with W7. And, as I wrote, W10 loaded the Desktop with links to stores to buy media and gaming stuff that I have no interest in. I read that one big reason why MS could offer the upgrade free was because of the marketing stuff that was on the Desktop. No idea when MS will stop supporting W7 with security updates but I'll deal with it after that.
> 
> Also, I'm surprised people still subscribe to AOL unless they still have dial up internet service. We have cable broadband and we connect directly to the internet; no need to go through another ISP. I think AOL is worse these days because they've bleed a whole amount of their subscriber base. I don't understand the ongoing need for it and ISPs like EarthLink. Why use their cable or DSL modems when you can either rent from your local cable or phone company or even go out and buy your own modem? We've had cable internet for 15 years now with the local cable TV company being our ISP. We use them only internet only, not TV.


We use Cox Cable for everything, phone, internet, and etc. Have used aol ever since back in the nineties when we first started using computers. I will admit it isn't as good as it once was, but has many features we are used to and love, so we have stayed with it. Several members of my family still use aol also. I wouldn't trade the aol mail system for any other. We have tried many others and always go back to aol. Aol isn't with it's problems at times, but to get the things we like with it, we find it worth putting up with.


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## forluvofsmoke (Oct 2, 2016)

Hey Rick, I spent about 1/2 hour last night researching the latest updates that hit my Win10 laptop, because I wanted to uninstall some changes they made to the desktop/start menu. Guess what? It was all a bunch of bundled together crap that they slipped in along with updates for fixes on critical issues that were identified in the past. So, if I can't figure out how to break down each package and sort out the junk to uninstall (which I doubt can be done without a feverish effort), I'm stuck with all of it.

Kinda makes a guy want to walk away from MS altogether, and I probably will with the next laptop I buy. I strongly dislike being forced to eat the crap they stuff down our throats. But I will research the alternatives and options thoroughly...all I know for sure is that I want nothing to do with anything that Apple has to offer, from PCs, laptops and phones, to pads/tablets...never owned one, never will...over-priced, over-rated, and entirely too many incompatibilities. Everyone I've known that has had a product beginning with "i" says they never crash and they never get bugs, and blah-blah-blah-blah-blah...they have nothing to say when their non-issues become reality. To each his own...

Anyway, I'm hoping my little Asus Win10 will keep running long enough to find what I really want. I had multiple freeze-ups running Win8...to the point that I thought my machine was crashed. Couldn't restart because nothing was responsive...not even Task Manager would open. Push and hold the power button did nothing...and I didn't even have the browser open or anything else running. One time I had to just let it sit for about 20 hours until the battery ran completely dead just to get it to shut down so I could restart in safe mode...yeah, they can keep Win8. I'm waiting for Win10 to do the same thing. MAYBE, just maybe they figured out those issues and with Win10 and the recent updates that all went bye-bye...time will tell.

Eric


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## daricksta (Oct 2, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Hey Rick, I spent about 1/2 hour last night researching the latest updates that hit my Win10 laptop, because I wanted to uninstall some changes they made to the desktop/start menu. Guess what? It was all a bunch of bundled together crap that they slipped in along with updates for fixes on critical issues that were identified in the past. So, if I can't figure out how to break down each package and sort out the junk to uninstall (which I doubt can be done without a feverish effort), I'm stuck with all of it.
> 
> Kinda makes a guy want to walk away from MS altogether, and I probably will with the next laptop I buy. I strongly dislike being forced to eat the crap they stuff down our throats. But I will research the alternatives and options thoroughly...all I know for sure is that I want nothing to do with anything that Apple has to offer, from PCs, laptops and phones, to pads/tablets...never owned one, never will...over-priced, over-rated, and entirely too many incompatibilities. Everyone I've known that has had a product beginning with "i" says they never crash and they never get bugs, and blah-blah-blah-blah-blah...they have nothing to say when their non-issues become reality. To each his own...
> 
> ...


Eric, I briefly worked as a temp for MS as an escalation (2nd tier) support tech and I can tell you that from my experience the company has always been horribly managed. Doesn't surprise me that with the debt MS has amassed from some its really bad company purchases they're force feeding unwanted (but profitable) bloatware updates for W10. Problem is that most of us use Windows because most of the programs out there are written for it, most of us aren't Linux code writing geeks, and most of the Apple software is now targeted for iPhones and iPads. But I know about Asus laptops and they're fine machines.

But you gave me another justification for staying with W7 because the Windows Updates aren't bundled with junk and I retain the option to install the optional non-priority updates. But even then there have been Windows Updates going back to XP that screwed up computers. All you can do is wait for the patches to the updates to be released.  I'm fully aware that when when I buy a laptop (which is penciled in for the future) I'll be forced to deal with W10 then.

Rick

Ironically, when I sat down at my puter this morning  the router was disconnected from the cable modem and I couldn't wake up the desktop. I had to push the power off/on button to restart the machine. This has historically been a recurring issue with every version of Windows I've owned going back to W95 2nd edition.


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## daricksta (Oct 2, 2016)

Brickguy221 said:


> Myself & my family liked Windows 7 really well and hated Windows 8 and even finally canceled Windows 8 and returned to Windows 7 and stayed there until Windows 10 came out of which we love. I got a new Dell Lap Top recently of which came with the latest version of Windows 10 and not have a single problem nor complaint thus far ... ( knock on wood ... lol ) ...
> 
> It appears that people like myself,  like Windows 10 while others like yourself don't like Windows 10, so the bottom line here is "to each his own".
> 
> We use Cox Cable for everything, phone, internet, and etc. Have used aol ever since back in the nineties when we first started using computers. I will admit it isn't as good as it once was, but has many features we are used to and love, so we have stayed with it. Several members of my family still use aol also. I wouldn't trade the aol mail system for any other. We have tried many others and always go back to aol. Aol isn't with it's problems at times, but to get the things we like with it, we find it worth putting up with.


When I wrote about AOL I was thinking that most likely you like the ease of the email system. In the early days (1997-2005 or so) we used Outlook Express which came free with Windows. We've always liked it. Since we purchased MS Office some years ago we now use Outlook for our personal email and online Outlook for business stuff or for emails that we don't want delivered to our personal email address. I also had us on AOL for a brief time back in the late '90s. I remember that it was easy to start the free trial period but I had to jump some hoops to cancel and they kept sending me emails with special deals to reconsider. We really liked Prodigy and then EarthLink way back then. When we moved to our current house back in 2001 and chose to have our local cable TV company provide our internet connection that's when we cancelled EarthLink because it was no longer needed.

And yes, when it comes to operating systems, to each their own.


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## daricksta (Sep 12, 2016)

Had a 5 lb. remainder--including the point--of a whole packer brisket so I decided to try my hand at my first attempt at burnt ends. You can see from the photo that I got some nice color but, for the most part, the meat didn't get crunchy enough for me. I cooked them at around 235-243° for two hours in a foil pan, for the most part following Jeff Phillips' online recipe. They turned out really flavorful. All in all I think a good first effort.

For the dry rub (photo # 3) I made it from Steven Raichlen's Kansas City Sweet & Smoky recipe. I also used Stubb's Original BBQ Sauce for the burnt ends.

The entire brisket took about 24 hours to cook and I don't know why. It hit its first stall at about 150° and I left it wrapped  in red butcher paper for 12 hours, or basically all night. When I took the paper off, the paper was soaked and dripping in grease. The brisket was very wet on the outside but wound up at the end with pretty good bark. No idea why the brisket kept stalling. What's also confusing is that despite being exposed to the oak wood pellet smoke for so long a time it really didn't absorb that much smoke flavor. Again, no idea why since I've cooked briskets in my MES over wood pellets before and they turned out nicely smoked. Well, I've got one more whole packer brisket to smoke sometime as well as a small flat. I'll figure it all out the next time, or the time after that. 













Brisket 1.JPG



__ daricksta
__ Sep 12, 2016


















Brisket 2.JPG



__ daricksta
__ Sep 12, 2016


















Brisket With Dry Rub.JPG



__ daricksta
__ Sep 12, 2016


















Burnt Ends.JPG



__ daricksta
__ Sep 12, 2016






What took the smoke so long was that, per Meathead Goldwyn, I was trying to get the finish IT to 203° but it stalled for a couple of hours at 201° so I pulled it. Next time I'm pulling it at 200° because the flat came out too dry.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 12, 2016)

I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.

I've only taken flats above 195* for pulling...185*-195* for slicing, depending on how stubborn it is.

I also finish burnt ends on open grates for 2-3hrs...never in a pan...always get a nice crunch and popping, tender chew. I separate the point/flat when the point hits the mid 150's (flat is usually nearing ~165* so by then)...lose less moisture when slicing.

Eric


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## SmokinAl (Sep 13, 2016)

Well it sure looks good from here!

Al


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## dr k (Sep 13, 2016)

@DaRicksta
Looks tasty!  The foil pan limits smoke contact compared to being on an open rack. I like Bear's rack inside the foil pan so when I cover the pan with foil the meat only touches the rack, keeping it elevated out of the juices. I have used butchers paper a few times with good results. I prefer to smoke on an open rack for maximum smoke exposure then at the stall put it on a rack in the foil pan and tent with foil when I want to generate more juices. I like all three:  foil, paper and naked. I have a large top round for roast beef I've never made before and will smoke it naked the whole time. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.
> 
> I've only taken flats above 195* for pulling...185*-195* for slicing, depending on how stubborn it is.
> 
> ...


That's why I removed the paper, because the meat surface was too wet. But the brisket was exposed to the wood smoke for 7-8 hours after that. Granted the pellets snuffed themselves out and I had to relight the AMNPS a few times. This never used to happen this often. Perhaps because the oak pellets are a few years old but they don't feel like they've absorbed moisture. But there were also times I thought the tray had gone out but when I pulled the AMNPS from the smoker there was still wispy smoke being generated. And yes, I've gotten much better smoke in the past using these oak pellet as well as the Texas Crutch.

How do you keep the burnt ends from falling through the grate? I think I'll not use a foil pan next time even though Jeff Phillips uses one. As for finish IT, the last time I cooked a flat to 198° IT the fat wasn't rendered nearly enough. For my tastes it's gotta be at least 200°. I've got a whole packer brisket in the freezer right now. I decided that next time--since I have to split the brisket since the entire thing won't fit on a single rack in my MES 30, I'll wrap the flat in paper when it reaches 150-160° but I'll leave the point naked, There's no throwing briskets around inside my little electric smoker so the bark will be fine.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

SmokinAl said:


> Well it sure looks good from here!
> 
> Al


Thanks, Al.

Rick


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## daricksta (Sep 13, 2016)

Dr K said:


> @DaRicksta
> Looks tasty! The foil pan limits smoke contact compared to being on an open rack. I like Bear's rack inside the foil pan so when I cover the pan with foil the meat only touches the rack, keeping it elevated out of the juices. I have used butchers paper a few times with good results. I prefer to smoke on an open rack for maximum smoke exposure then at the stall put it on a rack in the foil pan and tent with foil when I want to generate more juices. I like all three: foil, paper and naked. I have a large top round for roast beef I've never made before and will smoke it naked the whole time.
> -Kurt


Kurt, The burnt ends turned out fine. It was just the flat that lacked smoke flavor. They were smokier than the flat which was cooked naked on a rack before and after the paper wrap. Jeff Phillips believes in placing the brisket in a foil pan to catch all the juices and cut down on the cleanup. I prefer to stick the brisket parts right on the racks. As I commented to forluvofsmoke, I have one more whole packer in the freezer. Next time the point will remain naked and I'll wrap the flat in paper when the stall hits. What I don't understand for this time was why the brisket point stalled so many times. I even tried removing and reinserting the probe but it didn't make any difference.

You mentioned top round. That cut of meat is going on sale as London broil at Safeway this week, The meat dept. manager has become my buddy and he's the one who told me it'd be going on sale. I'm going to have him slice it up thin to use for my third batch of beef jerky. Jerky is surprisingly easy to make well.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 13, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > I've never tried the butcher paper method. Have you gotten good smoke flavor in the past? It just seems to me that if the meat stays too wet, especially with rendered fat, that would hinder smoke flavor, and definitely reduce the formation of bark.
> ...


I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.

Yeah, if you cut across the packer to fit in the smoker, you have mostly point muscle on one end and mostly flat muscle on the other. Kind of simplifies the process for burnt ends, as you can grab the point at your desired I/T and work your magic while the flat stays behind to get happy.

I have yet to smoke whole muscle meat in a pan...well, at least I don't recall doing it...OK, wait, I did toss boneless/skinless chicken thighs into a pan once with garlic butter...LOL!!! Burnt ends on open grates are a thing of beauty. Nicely caramelized crust, and if the point is cubed at a low enough I/T, the interior texture is a unique experience. The meat will get more tender on the second round in the smoker, but not to the point that it melts all of the collagen...just enough still there to add a little pop in the chew. Still good interior moisture, as well. Anyway, that's how we've come to know and love burnt ends. I've pulled the point at much higher temps, rested for 30-40 minutes, cubed and back to open grates, but it just wasn't the same experience when they hit the plate...a bit drier, slightly overcooked and with a softer chew.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 15, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.
> 
> Yeah, if you cut across the packer to fit in the smoker, you have mostly point muscle on one end and mostly flat muscle on the other. Kind of simplifies the process for burnt ends, as you can grab the point at your desired I/T and work your magic while the flat stays behind to get happy.
> 
> ...


Eric, no foil pan next time I do burnt ends. I ate the last of those little beauties today. I got them more to the texture I wanted by sticking them in broiler pan in my countertop convection oven and broiled them at 450° for about 15 minutes. That darkened the bark and firmed up the outside of the meat a bit but they were still very tender and moist. The flavor was still 100% there. Pop, admittedly, no pop in the chew.

Yes, when after cutting a whole packer in two one side is mostly point muscle while the other is either mostly or all flat (depending where the brisket is sliced). But with the point the flat still runs below the point separated by that line of fat. But I learned a lesson with that. The flat under point was thinner than the flat half cut from the point half. It was so thin that the flat was overcooked when I sliced it from the point before chopping up the smoked point to make burnt ends. Gotta figure out how to avoid this next time. Problem is that I ate so much of the burnt ends yesterday I really don't want to eat any more for a week or two.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 15, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > I cube my burnt ends to around 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" and they have contact with 2-3 wires on the grate...no issues. They're big enough that 4-5 makes a serving for the average diner...although they're so darn good they go really FAST.
> ...


Yep, it does make a huge difference when you stay on open grates.

Hmm, the if you get overcooked flat under the point again, you could just pull it apart and give it a rough chop for sandwiches. I made a huge pulled beef brisket sandwich with a crusty french bread loaf with cheese & lettuce a while back that was KILLER. It can be a pretty amazing dining experience if you go off the reservation and just toss caution to the wind...LOL!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 18, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Yep, it does make a huge difference when you stay on open grates.
> 
> Hmm, the if you get overcooked flat under the point again, you could just pull it apart and give it a rough chop for sandwiches. I made a huge pulled beef brisket sandwich with a crusty french bread loaf with cheese & lettuce a while back that was KILLER. It can be a pretty amazing dining experience if you go off the reservation and just toss caution to the wind...LOL!!!
> 
> Eric


Eric--NOW you give me that idea for using the overcooked flat? NOW??????

But that's a great idea. Your idea works on several levels--all of them delicious. The wife and I love our crusty French bread. And where's there's bread in our house there's usually cheese of some type. We also love all types of lettuce. Hey, have you heard of AeroGarden? It's a countertop plant garden. We buy their seed packets for lettuce and herbs. It's extremely cool to watch that stuff growing in your kitchen. We use the lettuce in sandwiches and salads in addition to using the store bought stuff. The freshly grown herbs are amazing. You can also grow tomatoes but we had mixed results with that. At some point my wife wants to perfect making crusty French bread in her bread machine (she already makes her own hamburger and hot dog buns from scratch) but there are some really good take and bake loaves at major supermarkets now that are really good. Also we have a supermarket with a bakery that makes outstanding regular French and sourdough French loaves. Unfortunately we still have to buy the cheese for the sandwich and the mayo. Someday we'll make our own mayo. My wife does make this amazing ketchup from a recipe in a celebrity chef cookbook we bought at his restaurant. As you can see, we're really into home cooking.

What I'm getting at is if you really want to go off the res and lob a high hard caution into the wind, you could smoke a beef brisket with homemade rub and brush on homemade BBQ sauce and pile the sliced brisket onto homemade French bread and place the homegrown lettuce over that. As for me, when the rainy days stay away for a few days in a row I'm breaking out my smoker and either smoking up the whole packer brisket or just a flat that I also have in the freezer.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 18, 2016)

You're crackin' me up, Rick!!! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Yeah, I've dug around on the net for sprouting seeds, kits, etc, for growing greens, mainly...haven't pulled the trigger yet (dunno why not), but still have the bookmarks. Sprouts, greens, salad mixes all sound great to have fresh every day, and you know what went into them and how they've been handled.

Here's a teaser for ya...well, it may even be inspirational. I had to look, but this one's in my signature line..this was 6-1/2 years ago when I was still playin' with the SnP 40"...11.4lb packer (one of the smallest I've ever smoked):

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/90615/had-any-burnt-fingers-or-pulled-flat-lately-brisket-q-vew

Burnt Fingers (modified burnt ends) about to come out and play with our senses...these things flew off the platter so fast it was ridiculous:



Pulled flat on crusty french bread...had a helluva time cramming all the fillings into that loaf (all of the smaller flat, IIRC), and it didn't come through looking real pretty, but the eats were phenomenal...I think there were zero leftovers of burnt fingers or this sandwich:



Carnivore's delight...spare ribs, burnt fingers and pulled flat sammie...that's a ton of meat in there:



That was one of those smokes I did where I just went completely against the grain and wandered off the beaten path...but, then, I've been doing that for years...I mean, who pulls the flat, right? And, burnt fingers...what the heck is that? Ah, it was fun, and really good eating at the end of the day...two things that matter most to me when I cook.

Eric


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## brickguy221 (Sep 18, 2016)

I keep reading about burnt ends in this forum and how good they are.  Prior to lately, I have never heard of them. Exactly what are they like. I mean is the meat burnt all the way thru or is it just the crust burnt on the outside or what????


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 18, 2016)

Naw, Brickguy, the name is deceiving. Traditionally, at some BBQ joints, burnt ends are the edges trimmed off of brisket...the really dark crispy stuff. The way many of us make burnt ends here is to use the entire point muscle from the brisket. They are a unique texture and very addictive. Next time you decide to smoke a brisket, find a whole (packer) brisket and read up on BEs before you get ready to smoke it up. It is one of the treats you long for once you've had them and get them the way you like. Some do theirs differently than others because that's what they like, or maybe that's the only way they've tried them...anyway, there are different methods, from the internal temperature at which one cubes the point muscle (I go low, in the mid 150* range, other go closer to 190-200*)), to how they are finished (open grates or in a pan, sauced lightly or just more dry rub applied).

If I smoke up a whole brisket and don't make burnt ends? Oh, believe me when I say, that day may not end well for me. Everyone loves BEs here.

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 19, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> You're crackin' me up, Rick!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eric, the problem with cracking people is the pressure to continue to keep being able to crack people. Too many people who can't take the pressure crack under the pressure. Whether they crack up or down depends upon their personal orientation.

That being said, I think you've left out quite a few steps here--like how you cut up the burnt fingers in the first place. So, you cook the entire point and then you cut it into fingers. And (I know you've heard this joke countless times), do you take the best brisket finger and then choose the person at the dinner table you like best and then give them the finger? I have more of these...

And I need to tutor you on the how I what I like to see in text accompanying Qview. For instance, I see white cheese inside the crusty french bread but what KIND of white cheese, sir? Looks like thick-sliced mozz which would be fortunate for me because I love mozz. Or really just about any cheese of any color.

Do you first slice up the flat into those rectangular shapes and then plop 'em onto the cooking rack? If so, why do you do this? Are those small hunks o' brisket also from the flat?  Why do you pull the flat after 5 hours? What's the typical IT when you pull it? Is it a whole flat or have you sliced it into rectangular segments?

Honestly what's confusing me is figuring out which is which from your original burnt fingers post and this brisket and burnt ends one. Are those rectangular shapes cut up flat or cut up point muscle? I like your against the grain thinking because it results in much more tender and easy to slice brain fibers. But besides that, I still have a whole packer brisket in my freezer and I like the prospect of burnt fingers better than burnt ends. It's far less hassle than chopping the brisket up into smaller burnt ends pieces. From your two posts and if I'm seeing it correctly, both the flat and the point seem to be cut up into rectangular sections and the burnt fingers seem to be a smaller version of the flat pieces. Is this right?

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 19, 2016)

Ha! Yeah, I always crack up...never down. If your calling is to crack people, best you stick with the program, right?

Never thought about giving anyone the finger when we plate up and sit down, but if I do I'll still save the bigger finger for myself...LOL!!!

Oh, I really went against the grain with the Burnt Fingers & Pulled Flat thread. That was just another one of my "what if" experiments where I set out to disprove the wide belief that I observed at the time: you can't pull the brisket flat because it's too lean. Well, OK, so, show me _why_ you can't pull the flat and I'll show you _how_ you can. Those who followed this line of thinking were not arrogant or ignorant...they were simply misinformed by someone's theory, or ill-tested experiment. If you don't prove or disprove a theory, then it's still nothing more than a theory. Call me a mad scientist (yeah, some have, and some still do on occasion)...call me a unknown quantity of unknown substances (a few have asked where I attained my higher education...I have none...I'm just a analytical thinker)...I've even called myself a rogue of sorts at times (before I realized the implication of malicious intent...no malicious intent here)...just don't ever call me after midnight. I'm just curious, and willing to step up, research and experiment to find new ways to achieve the universal goal...provide the best possible product and dining experience. What is best, anyway? Your best and my best are likely a wide-ranging list of variables, so how do you define best? That's open for discussion, however, ultimately it is the decision of the individual as to how to define and achieve said goal. In seeking my defined goal, I often find the answers to questions I haven't yet asked about methods that are considered traditional, or about non-traditional methods which I practice that evolve as I learn more. There are only rare circumstances in which I attempt to duplicate a previous meal item, including finished temp, texture, recipe, etc...to prove it as being repeatable, or, to decide if this particular food item satisfies my goal, so far as to not want for anything different. Times change...sometimes beliefs and opinions don't follow the changes and those individuals will continue down the same path, unaware of the benefits or unwilling to follow change...to each his/her own. I digressed...

Yeah, burnt fingers vs burnt ends is less processing for fingers. BFs (sure, you could call them best friends) are basically 1/2 the width of the point muscle at it's widest girth, then sliced into strips approx 1" thick. I have broke them down by splitting the strips down the center from the thickest portion of the point muscle, but stick to about 1" x 2" max width for finishing size. I cut BEs to approx 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" cubes...some end up a bit bigger. The result of BFs is a larger piece with less surface area per oz/lb for the formation of that jewel crust we love so much. I hardly notice it, though, as the crust is hard enough to maintain a rigid finger (just in case you do want to show it to someone...LOL!!!).

For the pulled flat, IIRC, I smoked it to around 200* IT, rested in foil, then pulled. For BE's/BFs, I used to go close to 200* before resting/cutting, but I found out several years ago that we liked the BEs texture and retained moisture better if I rested an hour or so after the mid 150s IT, then finished processing for their final stage on open grates. I've tried just dusting with dry rub and with tossing in a bowl after drizzling with a light coat of thick Bbq sauce...we like the sauced version better, probably due to a deeper caramelizing and crisper crust. One of the few times I ever sauce my smoked meats, BTW. You know this already from previous posts, but there is absolutely no comparison between BEs pan finished and open-grate finished. Panned protects the meat from the dry heat which forms the crust...keeps the surface moist for longer, sure, but if it's crust you desire, open grates is the only way to get it, short of hitting them with about 400-500* indirect heat, or under a hot broiler. Either way, unless you turn over the BEs/BFs periodically when finishing hot & fast, you won't get a crisp crust on all sides. It would work, if that's your game...though it may carry some cons along with it, such as meat/sauce stuck to the pan...I don't want to lose any product taking short-cuts. I usually am running a low & slow smoker with BEs on the menu, so I opt for open grates and longer finishing time...good things come to those who wait...and, open-grate finish requires no fuss once they hit the grates. Toss 'em in and when they're done, they're done.

The cheese in the sammie is mozz...think I mentioned it the linked thread...you'd have to read it know. That sammie meat was all from hand-pulled flat...long strands about 3/4" thick all placed length-wise on the bread loaf, then sliced about 2 to 2-1/2" wide and plated on it's side. Slicing is cross-grain, so yes, it gives a more tender bite and chew in the sammie, as the meat chunks/fibers are only as long as the width of the bread.

Oh, I missed this one...the rectangular shapes you mention on the plate, I assume? (I know, ass-u-me) That's the finished burnt fingers, in all their glory. Weird part about BFs is that I don't remember making them since that thread...why? Maybe my memory is REALLY bad. Maybe we liked BEs better than BFs...be it overall texture, or that a BF is several bites while a BE is one or two bites...huh, I just tried to answer a question I haven't previously asked. I'll just have to try BFs again soon and find out for sure...uh, that would actually give me a justifiable reason to smoke a whole beef brisket with only 2 people in the house. See what you did to me, Rick? HA-HA-HAAAAAAA!!!

If I missed anything else, it was due to sorting through your humor...your fault, not mine...LOL!!!

Later, brother!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Sep 21, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Ha! Yeah, I always crack up...never down. If your calling is to crack people, best you stick with the program, right?
> 
> Never thought about giving anyone the finger when we plate up and sit down, but if I do I'll still save the bigger finger for myself...LOL!!!
> 
> ...


Eric, whenever my wife or I have properly cooked a brisket--either slow cooked in a slow cooker, a Dutch oven, or my smoker, it's always pulled apart. Some people may think that's overcooked but it's the way we like it. Frequently part of the flat will still slice for great brisket sandwiches will other parts will shred.

You said never to call you after midnight. That set my brain a-turnin'. Do you remember an old Stones tune called Midnight Rambler? Or the Clapton tune After Midnight? Maybe I can call you the Before Midnight Analytical Thinking Mad Scientist? It suits you! I also like to experiment with each smoke, trying this or that technique. What if I smoke this brisket flat naked while I wrap the other one? What if I cook these racks of St. Louis style ribs on my Weber over charcoal briquettes and wood chips or pellets and at the same time cook these baby backs in my smoker over wood pellets? Given they're different cuts of pork ribs but how different or similar will both sets of racks taste? However, your ideas for experiments go far beyond what I think of. Do you also experiment with your own dry rubs and/or mops or finish sauces? After reading this last post of yours I really wish we were neighbors. Not only to taste your Q but to watch you at work. You so rarely meet creative individuals applying their thinking skills to outdoor cooking. I really love that stuff but there's no one to share it with that I know of in my area.

It's a poor smoker who blames his forgetfulness upon the expert wit and humor of others, my friend. But besides that, I'm in your same boat. Only the wife and I in the home so it's brisket for two. I do share some with my favorite bro-in-law. Both our grown kids have flown. My son doesn't like beef brisket anyway (he's no fruit from _my _loins!) and I think my daughter likes brisket OK but I can never remember. But as I've said I've got that 14 lb. whole packer brisket in the freezer and I'm gonna smoke it up whether or not it's just for the two of us. BTW, my wife didn't eat ONE BE that I made last week. Too bad that left all of them for me...

With my first attempt at burnt ends I used Jeff Phillips' recipe as a guide. I had cooked only the point (with flat meat under the fat layer) and pulled it at 201° as you've already read. I free formed the cutting of the BE so they were different shapes and thicknesses. On any TV cooking competition show I would've been sent home packing. It seems like it'd be a big hassle to continually turn BEs over on the rack. BFs would be much easier because of their larger size. But with my next stab at BEs, I'm going to follow the road map you laid out. Unlike you I don't measure anything before cutting or slicing. No, I tell a lie. When prepping Chinese food I do my best to follow directions for length, width and thickness of meat and also for the vegies. After grilling and BBQ (smoking) stir frying Asian food in a wok is one of my favorite ways to cook food. Now, don't get me started on Panini presses and pressure cookers. They're both next on that list.

When you wrap the brisket in foil to rest it, do you stick it inside an insulated cooler or leave it on a cutting board in the kitchen or something? I've become a big cooler fan. The brisket's wrapped in foil but I place it at the bottom of the cooler and then place a couple of thick towels over it. It'll stay hot to warm inside the cooler for hours, just doing its juices redistribution thing. After it's cooled I vacuum seal the leftovers which serves to intensify the smoky and other flavors. I do my best to leave the vacuum sealed packet in the fridge for a couple of weeks before chawing down on the brisket again. Same thing works well for smoked cheese. 3 weeks in a vacuum sealed packet in the fridge. Delightful and smokily delicious flavors result.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 23, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Eric, whenever my wife or I have properly cooked a brisket--either slow cooked in a slow cooker, a Dutch oven, or my smoker, it's always pulled apart. Some people may think that's overcooked but it's the way we like it. Frequently part of the flat will still slice for great brisket sandwiches will other parts will shred.
> 
> *Well, heck, maybe I should just go for pulled flat and BEs/BFs all the time.*
> 
> ...


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## daricksta (Sep 26, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


>


Eric,

I was too busy to check in with SMF last week and all that activity has left me pooped. I just wanted to let you know I will read your entire post but it will be later today. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. Just want to be fully awake and alert for reading so my comments, as always, are finely honed yet surprisingly accessible with a modicum of humor sprinkled on top to make it pop.

And speaking of tops and pops,  was always a Beatles fan. I liked some Stones songs but the Fab Four will always be Top of the Pops to me. I'll be back later. Besides got my own post to make about my Maverick ET-733 and what I learned about it yesterday while smoking up some teriyaki beef jerky.


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## forluvofsmoke (Sep 26, 2016)

Hey, Rick,  I can understand that as good as anyone. I just spent the entire weekend low & slow smoking, rotisserie smoking, smoke/char-grilling lunch and dinner for a smaller gathering of family & friends. One meat and two sides for each meal Saturday, then one meat only for lunch and two meats plus one side for dinner. I just got home from work and still have to finish unloading the rest of my gear and supplies from Sunday night and I'm still recovering from the weekend...no, not brown-bottle flue. Just tired, especially after getting up at 4:15 this morning. That chore might have to wait for another day.

Sharp wit does not appear in the absence of sleep.

Eric


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