# Don't rub the rub



## gr0uch0 (Apr 4, 2017)

Ran across one of Rick Bayless' shows the other day, and said something that I'd not heard/read/seen before.  In this example, he was making poc chuc, but he said that for any meat, that seasonings/rubs should not be rubbed in.  His contention was that it choked off the pores and would not allow for deeper smoke and spice penetration, and would be largely limited to the surface instead.  He went on to say that the spices/rubs utilized should simply be sprinkled over the meat cut, and the moisture and pores would draw it in more effectively by itself.

Anyone else heard of this rationale?  This isn't just some uninformed Joe Schmoe who lobbed this out there:  obviously well respected, and I do like what he cranks out.  Interested to see what others--especially the formally trained chefs--have to say.  Gracias.


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## pc farmer (Apr 4, 2017)

I don't know, but I never rub just sprinkle on.  Just have always done it that way. 

Maybe it's good I do that.

I am not a trained chef thou


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## crankybuzzard (Apr 4, 2017)

Well, sounds like Someone needs to buy a 2 pack of butts and do a side by side comparison.  

I would but my wood burners are at the farm and an 18 hour cook out there these days can't happen.   

However, I've always used mustard or EVOO that gets rubbed in before the "rub" hits the meat.  Seems like that would "seal" the prose as well....

JJ, chime in!


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## gr0uch0 (Apr 4, 2017)

I'm with you, Charlie--I've always rubbed something, whether it begins with a light coat of oil, or just straight up rub, but I always worked it in.  If it were many others offering this up, I'd don't know if I would even slow down or bat an eye, but since it was Bayless, I look at it with a lot more credibility.  Especially with his Mexican expertise that also carries over into a lot of barbecue's roots as well.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 4, 2017)

With large whole muscles, Butts,Brisket, even Ribs, it doesn't matter a whole lot either way. Meat don't have Pores! There are muscle fibers separated by a thin sheet of collagen. Overall it's pretty impermiable stuff. Look at curing, 7 days per inch to get Salt and Nitrite Ions in! And they are infinitely smaller than granulated garlic or cracked black pepper. Meat cut across the grain, like steak,  is somewhat more permeable and some massage or rubbing can open some spaces between fibers and you will get slightly more penetration. So, rub it, sprinkle it or roll the meat in a pan of spices pressing with all your weight. It is pretty much just on the surface. Sitting overnight or 24 hours, some of the soluble flavors components will penetrate a couple of millimeters but are still basically on the surface...JJ


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## gr0uch0 (Apr 5, 2017)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> With large whole muscles, Butts,Brisket, even Ribs, it doesn't matter a whole lot either way. Meat don't have Pores! There are muscle fibers separated by a thin sheet of collagen. Overall it's pretty impermiable stuff. Look at curing, 7 days per inch to get Salt and Nitrite Ions in! And they are infinitely smaller than granulated garlic or cracked black pepper. Meat cut across the grain, like steak, is somewhat more permeable and some massage or rubbing can open some spaces between fibers and you will get slightly more penetration. So, rub it, sprinkle it or roll the meat in a pan of spices pressing with all your weight. It is pretty much just on the surface. Sitting overnight or 24 hours, some of the soluble flavors components will penetrate a couple of millimeters but are still basically on the surface...JJ


Whether they be pores, chasms, gaps between muscle fibers, striated separations, etc., you're not picking up what Bayless is putting down.  Good to know--thanks, JJ.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 5, 2017)

gr0uch0 said:


> Whether they be pores, chasms, gaps between muscle fibers, striated separations, etc., you're not picking up what Bayless is putting down.  Good to know--thanks, JJ.



I got exactly what he is saying...Rubbing clogs the surface and sprinkling don't. What I am saying is it don't matter either way. With large roasts, Rubs don't penetrate much regardless of how they are applied. Regarding smoke flavor, although NO2 being a gas dissolves into the meat to make a smoke ring, the flavorful smoke particulate matter is large and stay on the surface as well. So $.50 one, half dozen the other.[emoji]128512[/emoji]...JJ


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## gr0uch0 (Apr 5, 2017)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I got exactly what he is saying...Rubbing clogs the surface and sprinkling don't. What I am saying is it don't matter either way. With large roasts, Rubs don't penetrate much regardless of how they are applied. Regarding smoke flavor, although NO2 being a gas dissolves into the meat to make a smoke ring, the flavorful smoke particulate matter is large and stay on the surface as well. So $.50 one, half dozen the other.[emoji]128512[/emoji]...JJ


I should have phrased it better, didn't mean to imply that you didn't understand.  You're not necessarily buying into his theory is where I was headed.


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## dward51 (Apr 5, 2017)

gr0uch0 said:


> He went on to say that the spices/rubs utilized should simply be sprinkled over the meat cut, and the moisture and pores would draw it in more effectively by itself.


That one statement he made debunks all the rest IMO.  On one hand he argues the rub will block smoke flavor by clogging the "pores", but on the other if the rub is drawn in by the moisture in the meat it will not.  So rub drawn in or rubbed in is in the pores in his example.  So what is the difference in the end?  It's just not making sense.

I agree, someone with time to burn needs to break open a 2 pack and smoke 1 with rubbed rub and 1 with sprinkled and do a head to head comparison.  But I still think his argument is self defeating.


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## smokeymose (Apr 5, 2017)

I guess if you could "sprinkle" evenly over the whole piece, it would be ok. I feel the meat moisture sticks the rub anyway (my take), but I think most of us just rub it around to cover completely, not necessarily "rubbing it in".


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## crankybuzzard (Apr 5, 2017)

In my 30+ years of smoking meats I've never paid attention to anyone other than the mentors I've had in my family or circle of friends.  I've never tried to smoke like Myron, Bayless, or any of the other "experts" out there.  

If you and the folks you cook for like your end result, carry on!   

Just because someone on YouTube or television says it's right, means nothing.  

Your experiences will determine what's required for you.


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## lemans (Apr 5, 2017)

Crank , I agree .. forget YouTube.. experience is the best teacher


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## gr0uch0 (Apr 5, 2017)

I, apparently like the rest of you who've chimed in, found this to be rather out there as well.  I really enjoy Rick Bayless' expertise and Frontera's groceries, but this sounded more like Skip Bayless than anything else.  As mentioned, I'd not heard this theory previously and wanted to get some feedback.  Maybe some cook down the road, I'll test it on a single brisket or butt (half rubbed, half sprinkled) to see if there's any discernible difference.  At least that way, the same piece of meat would rule out any difference from different animals.  Thanks, all.


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## daveomak (Apr 6, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> In my 30+ years of smoking meats I've never paid attention to anyone other than the mentors I've had in my family or circle of friends. I've never tried to smoke like Myron, Bayless, or any of the other "experts" out there.
> 
> If you and the folks you cook for like your end result, carry on!
> 
> ...


I agree with that....  Dave


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## SmokinAl (Apr 6, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> I agree with that....  Dave


X2

Al


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## sauced (Apr 6, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> In my 30+ years of smoking meats I've never paid attention to anyone other than the mentors I've had in my family or circle of friends. I've never tried to smoke like Myron, Bayless, or any of the other "experts" out there.
> 
> If you and the folks you cook for like your end result, carry on!
> 
> ...


Amen!!! Agree 100%


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## dward51 (Apr 6, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> In my 30+ years of smoking meats I've never paid attention to anyone other than the mentors I've had in my family or circle of friends. I've never tried to smoke like Myron, Bayless, or any of the other "experts" out there.
> 
> If you and the folks you cook for like your end result, carry on!
> 
> ...


X6....   And there in more than one "correct" way to do just about anything in the first place.....

Not to mention the variations of rubbing with mustard, oil, mayo, or a pork stock paste before applying your dry rub.  Many, many variations out there and lots of reports of great results.


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## crankybuzzard (Apr 7, 2017)

dward51 said:


> And there in more than one "correct" way to do just about anything in the first place.....
> 
> Not to mention the variations of rubbing with mustard, oil, mayo, or a pork stock paste before applying your dry rub.  Many, many variations out there and lots of reports of great results.


Amen to that!

Want to have some fun?  Go to a pre-comp meeting or a BBQ club gathering and tell people they can ONLY use one thing to slather with(EVOO, mayo, mustard, coffee, strained peaches baby food*), they can only sprinkle, and there shall be NO injections or brining permitted!  Oh, no foiling of anything, and you have to leave the membrane on the ribs!

According to who you talk to, each item I just typed is the right thing to do and the rest is wrong...   That's why I bypass a lot of threads asking for the BEST way to do something.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






* Yes, I know a guy that slathers his briskets and butts with strained peaches baby food right from the jar!


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## smokeymose (Apr 7, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> Want to have some fun?  Go to a pre-comp meeting or a BBQ club gathering and tell people they can ONLY use one thing to slather with(EVOO, mayo, mustard, coffee, strained peaches baby food*), they can only sprinkle, and there shall be NO injections or brining permitted!  Oh, no foiling of anything, and you have to leave the membrane on the ribs!
> 
> ...


That's weird. Everyone knows Applesauce baby food is the way to go...


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## GaryHibbert (Apr 7, 2017)

CrankyBuzzard said:


> In my 30+ years of smoking meats I've never paid attention to anyone other than the mentors I've had in my family or circle of friends. I've never tried to smoke like Myron, Bayless, or any of the other "experts" out there.
> 
> If you and the folks you cook for like your end result, carry on!
> 
> ...


That's bang on Charlie.  Well said!!!!

And thanks JJ for your explanation.  It clears up any doubt.

Gary


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## gr0uch0 (Apr 7, 2017)

SmokeyMose said:


> That's weird. Everyone knows Applesauce baby food is the way to go...


That's awesome.  Well done, SM--I would have begun to wonder had you mentioned Gerber's strained peas or carrots....


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## 3montes (Apr 8, 2017)

I'm guessing 100 out of 100 people would not be able to differentiate between a piece of smoked meat regardless of the kind of meat whether the rub was sprinkled on or rubbed in before cooking. Actually that's not even a guess.

Things have a tendency to get waaayyy over thunk, especially in this hobby!


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