# Temperature question - more of a poll really



## PrairieGeek (Sep 3, 2019)

I am curious what temp you all use to smoke/dry your jerky.

I helped my dad upgrade his smoker with an electric element for more precise heat control.
We put the meat in charcoal only for 2 hours then kicked on the heat and ran it between 165 and 175 for another 5.  It turned out perfect but as this was the first time using the heat source I am curious what temps others use.
We were kicking around the idea of putting the smoke to it for an hour then kicking on the heat and perhaps upping the temp to stay closer to the 180 mark to see if we can cut the time down just a bit.


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## johnmeyer (Sep 3, 2019)

Those temps seem pretty high to me.

When making jerky you choose your temperature with two things in mind:

1. Get it above a safe temperature for a long enough time to kill pathogens. This means getting it above 130° F (preferably a little higher). Since the meat is already sliced really thin, the "interior" of the meat will come up to the temperature of your smoker or oven almost as fast as the exterior so the cooking times needed to be safe can be started almost from the moment you put the meat in the oven. Since you will be cooking/drying for many hours, you will exceed the times needed (18 minutes at 135° F) with literally hours of time to spare.

2. Dry it out so that it doesn't spoil because of moisture. Lower temperatures will let this happen without over-cooking the meat, whereas higher temperatures are going to make the meat a little tougher (and jerky is already plenty tough), brittle, and possibly burned tasting.

You are dehydrating, not cooking.

If I had a dehydrator, I'd dry at 135°. In my smoker, I smoke for 2-3 hours at 140° (my MES has terrible temperature control, so I have to add in some buffer above the temp I want in order to make sure I stay above 130°). I then finish for 3-6 hours in my convection oven which I set to its minimum of 140° (its temperature control is perfect). Again, if my oven (a Thermador electric) went lower, I'd use 135°.

Others may have different answers, but my main point is that you might consider using much lower temperatures, and shoot for 135°-140°.


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## siege (Sep 3, 2019)

johnmeyer has most all of the bases covered. I personally like a thick softer style jerky, so I cut mine about 3/8" thick, and add brown sugar and black pepper to my over night brine. The sugar helps encapsulate the water and prevent spoilage. I go straight to the smoker for an hour, then into the dehydrator at its lowest setting. It don't care how long it'll take since it's always a Saturday morning project. I dry it it to about 160 deg, blot off any surface fat and moisture, and vacuum seal in convieient pocket size packages.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 3, 2019)

A segment from the USDA on making Safe Jerky...JJ

*Why is temperature important when making jerky?* Illnesses due to _Salmonella_ and _E. coli_ O157:H7 from homemade jerky raise questions about the safety of traditional drying methods for making beef and venison jerky. The USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline's current recommendation for making jerky safely is to heat meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F before the dehydrating process. This step assures that any bacteria present will be destroyed by wet heat. But most dehydrator instructions do not include this step, and a dehydrator may not reach temperatures high enough to heat meat to 160 °F or 165 °F.

After heating to 160 °F or 165 °F, maintaining a constant dehydrator temperature of 130 to 140 °F during the drying process is important because:


the process must be fast enough to dry food before it spoils; and
it must remove enough water that microorganisms are unable to grow.
*Why is it a food safety concern to dry meat without first heating it to 160 °F?*
The danger in dehydrating meat and poultry without cooking it to a safe temperature first is that the appliance will not heat the meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F — temperatures at which bacteria are destroyed — before the dehydrating process. After drying, bacteria become much more heat resistant.

Within a dehydrator or low-temperature oven, evaporating moisture absorbs most of the heat. Thus, the meat itself does not begin to rise in temperature until most of the moisture has evaporated. Therefore, when the dried meat temperature finally begins to rise, the bacteria have become more heat resistant and are more likely to survive. If these surviving bacteria are pathogenic, they can cause foodborne illness to those consuming the jerky.

*What research findings exist on the safety of jerky?*
"Effects of Preparation Methods on the Microbiological Safety of Home-Dried Meat Jerky" was published in the _Journal of Food Protection_, Vol. 67, No. 10, 2004, Pages 2337-2341. The authors are from the University of Georgia (Brian A. Nummer, Judy A. Harrison, and Elizabeth L. Andress, Department of Foods and Nutrition, and Mark A. Harrison, Department of Food Science and Technology) and from Colorado State University (Patricia Kendall, Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition and John N. Sofos, Department of Animal Sciences ).

Marinating meat doesn't make raw meat safe. "Marination alone did not result in significant reduction of the pathogen compared with whole beef slices that were not marinated," concluded the study.

In the jerky studies, some samples showed total bacterial destruction and other samples showed some bacterial survival — especially the jerky made with ground beef. Further experiments with lab-inoculated venison showed that pathogenic _E. coli_ could survive drying times of up to 10 hours and temperatures of up to 145 °F.

A study by the Harrisons and Ruth Ann Rose, also with the University of Georgia, was published in the January 1998 _Journal of Food Protection_, Vol. 61, No. 1. The authors analyzed ground beef jerky made with a commercial beef jerky spice mixture with and without a curing mix containing salt and sodium nitrite.

Half of the ground beef was inoculated with _E. coli_ O157:H7 before making it into jerky strips and dehydrating it. The authors found that in both the heated and unheated samples, the jerky made with the curing mix had greater destruction of bacteria than jerky made without it. The jerky made with the mix and heated before dehydrating had the highest destruction rate of bacteria.

They concluded, "For ground beef jerky prepared at home, safety concerns related to _E. coli_ O157:H7 are minimized if the meat is precooked to 160 °F prior to drying."

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/CT_Index


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## 6GRILLZNTN (Sep 3, 2019)

I go as low as my pellet smoker with an upgraded controller will let me.  160.


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## PrairieGeek (Sep 3, 2019)

Yeah I know about the danger zone. I had to take serve safe courses before. I guess I was thinking maintain the safe zone for drying.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 3, 2019)

PrairieGeek said:


> Yeah I know about the danger zone. I had to take serve safe courses before. I guess I was thinking maintain the safe zone for drying.



Once the live bacteria are wiped out, your sliced meat is sterile. The smoker or dehydrator can run at the lower temp of 130-140, or a bit lower, without fear of being in the Danger Zone. For Ground Beef Jerky, the Cure #1, will protect against CB Spores coming to life and causing Botulism...JJ


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## eddiememphis (Sep 3, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> Once the live bacteria are wiped out, your sliced meat is sterile.



I disagree. 

160° is not hot enough to render meat sterile. It is hot enough to kill existing bacteria and make it safe to eat for a period depending on handling and storage, but that piece of jerky will become a dangerous snack if left on the counter for a couple days, especially if there is any fat left in the meat.

Jerky can keep for months or years if cured but meat would need to be completely desiccated to be sterile.

And that's not tasty.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 4, 2019)

eddiememphis said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 160° is not hot enough to render meat sterile. It is hot enough to kill existing bacteria and make it safe to eat for a period depending on handling and storage, but that piece of jerky will become a dangerous snack if left on the counter for a couple days, especially if there is any fat left in the meat.
> 
> ...



First of Welcome to the SMF Family. Here is some more detail on my previous post...

*Ster·ile...

Free from bacteria or other living microorganisms; totally clean.*
"a sterile needle and syringes"
synonyms: aseptic, sterilized, germ-free, antiseptic, disinfected, uninfected, uncontaminated.

No Live Bacteria of concern, found on food can survive 160 for more than a few Seconds before they are killed. Once Free from LIVING ORGANISMS, the meat is, by definition Sterile.
A few bacteria can produce Protective Shells, called SPORES and Survive temps of 160 up to 247°F. Since Spores are not Active Bacteria the Jerky is Still considered Sterile.
The Concern with storing a Room Temp, is RE-CONTAMINATION from hands going in and out of the container and introducing new Bacteria , especially the common Staph Aureus and Listeria. IF the Water Activity of the Jerky is above 0.85 in an open pack of Jerky, Staph Aureus and Listeria can grow and make you sick. If the Jerky Water Activity is 0.85 or below Bacteria does not have enough Moisture to live and quickly die. We are not concerned with the most dangerous Spores from Clostridium Botulinum because they don't grow in an Oxygen rich environment like a frequently opened container of Jerky. If Vac-packed, Jerky can be left slightly more moist, up to a Water Activity of 0.88 and stored at room temp without worry of Spore activation in the Anerobic Vac-pac environment. But MUST be Refrigerated after the,seal is broken.
Since measuring Water Activity uses special test equipment it is not a practice easily done at home. Hence we recommend storing in the Refer or Freezing.

Fat has ZERO impact on the Bacterial Safety of Jerky, because Food Pathogen don't consume Fat as a food source. Meat Protein is the only food, Food Pathogens eat. The only issue with High Fat Jerky is Rancidity or the Spoilage of the Fat. It is Not a Safety concern but it sure as heck don't Taste Good!

You are correct in complete Desiccation would not be edible. Complete Desiccation would be a Water Activity of 0.00. Our Smoke Wood isn't even That Low! Fortunately Open packs of Jerky, only need to reach 0.85 and Vac-pack Jerky 0.88 to disable Spore Growth. At these Water Activity levels, as stated above, even IF Dirty Hands covered the Jerky in Bacteria...The Bacteria would Not Survive and there would be no risk of Food Borne Illness...JJ 
A bit about my background. I'm a (Retired) Certified Food Safety and Sanitation Instructor, HACCP Program Instructor and Developer, Certified Food Science Instructor and Resident SMF Food Safety Moderator and Recognized Authority.

Source Documentation reprinted for Educational Purposes...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://meathaccp.wisc.edu/validation/assets/CL%20Jerky%20Staph%20&%20LM.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjZ_uLxrLbkAhUiU98KHerBCh4QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw23UzkWKLtUZ0yCFgYQNzgB

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ores_in_Food_Survival_Emergence_and_Outgrowth


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## eddiememphis (Sep 4, 2019)

So you agree with me!

When the term "sterile" is used without context (which you then provided, very thoroughly), most people will think it's safe from future contamination.

The reason I mentioned fat is rancidity, but also fat is hygroscopic, at least the glycerol component is. This will draw moisture from the atmosphere upon which bacteria may grow. 

But we are discussing esoterica beyond the original post.

PrairieGeek, get it above 160°, dry it to taste, store it well sealed in the refrigerator and eat it within a couple weeks.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 4, 2019)

eddiememphis said:


> So you agree with me!
> 
> When the term "sterile" is used without context (which you then provided, very thoroughly), most people will think it's safe from future contamination.



Not exactly. My First post was in reference to the Processing Temp PrairieGeek was questioning. During the Processing 160 Kills Living Bacteria, the meat is, in fact, Sterilized.
There was no mention of the Safety issue storing on the counter until you brought it up. I would have to spend hours answering a question to include an explanation for every tangent a member may come up with. 
I just give the Facts as Directly related to the Question.

I agree that we could both get deep into the Science and just cause confusion. So thanks for the participating in the discussion. PM me if you have any questions...JJ


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## johnmeyer (Sep 4, 2019)

I think I'm going to give up reading any more food safety advice because every post seems to contradict what various previous posts say. 

What's worse, this isn't just a matter of one person not understanding the science, and the other person having the facts, but instead seems to be a problem with the actual published science.

In this link, the USDA says exactly what JimmyJ has posted:

Jerky Food Science

This science says you have to get the jerky to 160°-165°. 

However, in many of the sous vide discussions, there are links to all sorts of research which claims to show that you can be safe if food is heated to much lower temperatures, but kept there for a long time. This includes the often-linked to recipe for chicken breasts cooked to 142°, *but without first going to 160°-165*°. 

I've actually researched this and did find the USDA tables which support this. I posted those links in this post:

Sous Vide, Smokers, and Food Safety - We're Safer Than We Thought

Since e coli and other pathogens don't care whether they are living in chicken or beef, I am totally unable to reconcile these two things. 

I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong because I have absolutely no way of knowing. What I *am *saying is that the information is completely and totally contradictory and therefore not useful. 

Bottom line: I don't know what to do and what source to believe. I seem to be getting two completely different recommendations, both coming from the USDA.


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## GaryHibbert (Sep 4, 2019)

I always use cure #1 when I make jerky.  After the curing and marinating stage, it goes into the smoker.
I start out at 100* with no smoke for one hour, to dry the meat off some.  Then I raise the temp by 10* each hour after that, with full smoke.  When the jerky has been in the smoker at 160* for the last hour, I remove it.  I then blot the jerky dry and put it in the fridge overnight.  The next morning I vac/seal it into whatever sized bags I want.  One package goes into the fridge for munching, and whatever is left after giving a lot away, is frozen until needed.
No one has ever gotten sick from eating my jerky.  Or, at least if they have, they showed enough consideration to just die quietly.  LOL
Gary


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 5, 2019)

johnmeyer
, I understand your concern. What I go by here, is what I taught...If there is Direct Contact with the Heat Source, SV, Deep Fry, Hot Water, Hot Metal, Steam, then heating is FAST and Pasteurization Temps apply, like heating at 140°F.
If heating is Indirect, basically Hot Air, like Ovens, Smokers and Dehydrators, then the USDA higher temp guidelines apply, 160°-165°F and so on.

All these details and guidlines to remember. This is why there are 16 week Certification Food Safely Courses at least one employee, on every shift, must take and enforce the USDA rules. If you want to learn more, find a ServeSafe class in your area...JJ


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## WildmanWilson (Sep 8, 2019)

I’ve been rethinking the 160 temp for safe jerky. While researching Sous Vide cooking I noticed people cook safely at lower temperature and it kills bacteria and pasteurizing it at lower temps for longer times. While hitting 160 for a minute or so kills it, 140 for 12 minutes will as well. Since drying jerky is a long process it should have plenty of time to kill the bacteria at 140 rather and going all the way to 160. Just a thought....


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## johnmeyer (Sep 8, 2019)

WildmanWilson said:


> I’ve been rethinking the 160 temp for safe jerky. While researching Sous Vide cooking I noticed people cook safely at lower temperature and it kills bacteria and pasteurizing it at lower temps for longer times. While hitting 160 for a minute or so kills it, 140 for 12 minutes will as well. Since drying jerky is a long process it should have plenty of time to kill the bacteria at 140 rather and going all the way to 160. Just a thought....


That is *exactly* how I read it, but the experts on this site claim this isn't true. However, I have not yet been able to understand their logic because if the organism really succumbs to long exposure at lower temperatures, compared to near-instant death at higher temperatures, then that must be true no matter whether you are heating in a bag or in a smoker or in an oven.

There has sometimes been mention of spores, which are harder to kill, but that has to be the case whether sous vide (which is where these time vs. temperature graphs are most frequently referenced) or whether in a dehydrator.

I can trace the source of the information about safe cooking at lower temps, as long as that heat is maintained for a long time, to the USDA.

The entire sous vide industry depends on that information being correct, so for my jerky I have zero issues with doing what you describe.

[edit]Here is a previous thread in this forum on this same subject, from earlier this year:

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/jerky-temp-question.284320/

Further edit: The study in the link below does suggest that the spores may indeed be more heat resistant when in a dry environment:

https://www.microbiologyresearch.or...est&checksum=BA34938C68CB883B7447F552E82FAF1D

I guess that if you don't want to heat to 160° F, you could first sous vide the marinated, but unheated meat, for half an hour at 135° (or whatever time/temp is safe for sous vide) and then proceed from that point to do your jerky at the lower temps. The meat has been made safe and, as long as you don't let it go back down to the danger zone, I would think it would be perfectly safe.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 10, 2019)

I just put the info out. What you do with it is your business as the SMF Safety Patrol won't show up and confiscate your low temp or even No Temp jerky. Nationally renowned Alton Brown of Food Network, layered his Soy marinated, no Cure, Jerky in Furnace Filters and strapped them to a Box Fan for 24 hours! His Lawyers did not have add any warning. You guys do what you want.
Just note that any posting of Recipes or Procedures that do not follow USDA Guidelines will receive a Warning that the procedure may cause Food Borne Illness or the thread may be deleted as Unsafe, per SMF Rules...JJ


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## johnmeyer (Sep 10, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> I just put the info out. What you do with it is your business as the SMF Safety Patrol won't show up and confiscate your low temp or even No Temp jerky. Nationally renowned Alton Brown of Food Network, layered his Soy marinated, no Cure, Jerky in Furnace Filters and strapped them to a Box Fan for 24 hours! His Lawyers did not have add any warning. You guys do what you want.
> Just note that any posting of Recipes or Procedures that do not follow USDA Guidelines will receive a Warning that the procedure may cause Food Borne Illness or the thread may be deleted as Unsafe, per SMF Rules...JJ


Are you saying that my previous post, where I posted links to various sites, including the USDA, and then said that it looked like using sous vide at 135 degrees followed by dehydrating at temps that stay above the danger zone violate this sites policies???

I too saw the "jerky on furnace filters" video and it looked like a horrible idea, and I made no recommendation that anyone follow this.

I don't like being called out for something I didn't do.


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## WildmanWilson (Sep 10, 2019)

The USDA is on the cautious side. I’m betting they use 160 because they know that kills bacteria in a minute or less. It doesn’t mean you can’t kill it at lower temps over a longer period. In fact we are 100% certain it does because it will in the SV cooking. There is no difference in a sealed bag or a dehydrator. Most dehydrators will easily reach 140. 

The USDA also lowered the safe cooking temperature of pork from 160 to 145. They can change their own rules too.


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## WildmanWilson (Sep 10, 2019)

Here’s a good read on the USDA temps. Seems they use the 160 to keep it simple for the public. It does cover how time and temperature work together in making food safe. 

https://amazingribs.com/technique-and-science/more-cooking-science/safe-serving-temperatures


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 10, 2019)

johnmeyer said:


> Are you saying that my previous post, where I posted links to various sites, including the USDA, and then said that it looked like using sous vide at 135 degrees followed by dehydrating at temps that stay above the danger zone violate this sites policies???
> 
> I too saw the "jerky on furnace filters" video and it looked like a horrible idea, and I made no recommendation that anyone follow this.
> 
> I don't like being called out for something I didn't do.



The USDA has put out guidelines for Home Jerky making. It is Cut and Dry...Using the Dry heat of a Smoker or Dehydrator heat the interior to 160°F before dropping to 130 to 140 ! Period. You posted heating to temps of 140 in the Dry heat of a Smoker or dehydrator. So as is Policy, I posted the USDA Jerky Guidelines. When you questioned that, I  went deeper still, explaining the DIFFERENCE between the Direct Contact SV Heat and Dry Heat heating. Now, if you had said, " I SV my meat in the marinade at 130°F for 121 minutes or 140° for 12 minutes, before dehydrating..." I would have not needed to get involved. But you made no mention of SV until AFTER you were called out, as you put it. I don't know what the problem is. There was nothing Personal here. ANYONE that posts incorrect or dangerous info like, initially heating Jerky at 140 with Dry Heat, will be Corrected. I consider the matter closed. If there is anything else, PM me...JJ 

 If you wish to read the Science behind how the USDA determined their guidelines for Jerky read on...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/0698f81b-68b7-4563-be07-714239027516/C31_NewTechnology_Final_Report.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&ved=2ahUKEwj59JOWxcfkAhVMdt8KHdv3CZ4QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2PLtAmR78l8xyGlyM_coA_


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## WildmanWilson (Sep 10, 2019)

I’ve read articles that say the USDA uses this because it’s very simple for the public to follow. The science proves it’s not only temperature but time as well. Lower temps at longer periods will kill the bacteria just the same. A dehydrator is not dry heat until most of the moisture has evaporated. It’s very moist for several hours.


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## ihocky2 (Oct 9, 2019)

I understand the basis of raising the temp to 160 to kill the bacteria in 1 minute. Just to make sure I understand the rest of the idea though, raise to 160 and then after that you are safe to lower the temperature 140 for the rest of the drying process?


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## WildmanWilson (Oct 9, 2019)

ihocky2 said:


> I understand the basis of raising the temp to 160 to kill the bacteria in 1 minute. Just to make sure I understand the rest of the idea though, raise to 160 and then after that you are safe to lower the temperature 140 for the rest of the drying process?



Yes. You don’t have to stay at 160 the entire time.


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## metsfan2152 (Dec 28, 2019)

WildmanWilson said:


> Yes. You don’t have to stay at 160 the entire time.


Is there a benefit of lowering it from 160 to 140?


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## WildmanWilson (Dec 28, 2019)

metsfan2152 said:


> Is there a benefit of lowering it from 160 to 140?


I believe the texture is superior


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## metsfan2152 (Dec 28, 2019)

I plan on putting it on the smoker at 170-180 30-45 minutes to get some smoke flavor. Then I am going to try my new dehydrator. What you recommend me to set the dehydrator for 140 or 160?


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## sandyut (Dec 28, 2019)

P
 PrairieGeek
   Aside from the safety discussion...

I smoke my jerky every time on my rec Tec at 180 for a couple hours and they up it to 225 till I get the dryness I am looking for.  In total i think it takes about 3-4 hours... I cut mine at 1/4"+.  work fine every time.  I have tried a few version but OFG Jerky is my fav!


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 28, 2019)

metsfan2152 said:


> I plan on putting it on the smoker at 170-180 30-45 minutes to get some smoke flavor. Then I am going to try my new dehydrator. What you recommend me to set the dehydrator for 140 or 160?



140 will be good. The high temp in the smoker will take care of bacteria...JJ


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## metsfan2152 (Dec 28, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> 140 will be good. The high temp in the smoker will take care of bacteria...JJ


Great thank you JJ.


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## smker (Dec 29, 2019)

PrairieGeek said:


> Yeah I know about the danger zone. I had to take serve safe courses before. I guess I was thinking maintain the safe zone for drying.


i know im late in conversation but are you using cure with your jerky?


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## WildmanWilson (Dec 29, 2019)

smker said:


> i know im late in conversation but are you using cure with your jerky?


Cure is a no brainer for me. It’s cheap insurance against  botulism . It’s a safe product so why not?


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