# Kosmos Phosphates



## jcam222 (Nov 21, 2018)

I bought a bag of the Moisture Magic. I did not have good luck and wondered if anybody ne else could point out what I might have been doing wrong. 1) Despite multiple attempts I could not get it to disolve. Whether mixing in a bowl or in a shaker cup it pretty much just caked up into gravel. I followed 1/8 cup per cup of liquid. 2) To me the minor amount that did disolve gave the broth an intensely bitter taste.     I used up about half a $24 bag and ended up using none in my cook. Anyone tell me what I might have done wrong?


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## pc farmer (Nov 21, 2018)

I use phosphates but not that brand.  That is alot in one cup of liquid.   My stuff that I use says to use .5% to meat weight in the water


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## jcam222 (Nov 21, 2018)

I’m going to give them a call Friday. Bag says 1/8 cup to 1 cup. I thought that was an awful lot too.


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## chopsaw (Nov 21, 2018)

pc farmer said:


> I use phosphates but not that brand. That is alot in one cup of liquid. My stuff that I use says to use .5% to meat weight in the water





jcam222 said:


> I’m going to give them a call Friday. Bag says 1/8 cup to 1 cup. I thought that was an awful lot too.



I thought the same thing as Farmer . I think we use the same product . .5% of meat weight is the max amount . I use it at a lesser rate , about .3% . Also I do the liquid by meat weight , so it's more than a cup . So less phosphate more liquid for what I do . 

I went to the product page , and it does say 1/8 cup to 1 cup liquid . It also says it's sodium tripolyphosphate which is the same that I use .


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## pc farmer (Nov 21, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> I thought the same thing as Farmer . I think we use the same product . .5% of meat weight is the max amount . I use it at a lesser rate , about .3% . Also I do the liquid by meat weight , so it's more than a cup . So less phosphate more liquid for what I do .
> 
> I went to the product page , and it does say 1/8 cup to 1 cup liquid . It also says it's sodium tripolyphosphate which is the same that I use .




Yeah, we use the same product Chop.We thinking the same , I think


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## dward51 (Nov 21, 2018)

I'll add a 3rd opinion that 1/8th cup sound like a huge amount.

I use Butcher & Packer #414 "special binder" and AmesPhos and neither of them are anywhere near that high a ratio.   What quantity of meat was that 1/8th cup in a cup of water supposed to mix with?  B&P 414 is 2 ounces (by weight) to 25 pounds of ground meat.  That works out to just 11.34 grams in 5 pounds of meat.  AmesPhos is 0.3 to 0.5% of the total weight of meat, so for 5 pounds that would be 6.8 to 11.34 grams for the same 5 pounds of meat (5 pounds of meat is 2268 grams x 0.003 for 0.3% etc...).

Oh wait, I think I see what's going on.  I looked at the Moisture Magic product site and they have a couple of instructions.  *The 1/8th cup to 1 cup of water is for INJECTION.*  For mixing with meat (as in sausage, sticks, etc....) it is listed as 1 ounce to 12.5 pounds which is the same as the B&P 414 at 2 ounces to 25 pounds of ground meat.  So 2.27 grams per pound or 11.34 grams for 5 pounds of GROUND MEAT would be spot on.

*How are you using the phosphate in your recipe?  Injection, brine, or mix with ground meat as it makes a difference.*

One other comment, the B&P 414 is also a little difficult to dissolve in water IMO.  You need to crush any lumps to dust before adding to water.  I've had the best results in ground meat by crushing up the B&P as much as a can with the back of a spoon and then adding it to my overall measured spices and mixing it in.  Then add all the spices to the wet (water, beer, etc...) to make a slurry to add to my ground meat.   No problems with clumpy messes that way for me.

That 1/8th cup for a cup of water in an injection still sounds off to me.  They list 1 cup to a 1/2 gallon of water for a brine.  1/2 gallon is 7.9 cups so the ratio they list for a brine is 1:7.9 and the ratio of 1/8th cup to a cup is 1:8 which is virtually the same.  Devil is in the details as it "sounded" like a lot more when I first read it, but I guess it's the same as their brine amount.

I've not injected phosphates or used them in a brine.  I just use them in ground meats and I swear by them and the results they give.  You don't need NFDM or soy binder if you use phosphates.  And phosphates are a natural compound so it's not franken-food.

Also you might want to look at B&P 414 as it is about 1/4 the price of the Moisture Magic price I saw on Amazon.


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## jcam222 (Nov 22, 2018)

My plan was to use in a broth/ butter and spice blend for imjection. I tried multiple times and ways to get 1/8 cup ti mic in a cup of liqud. Same result everytime, clumped up rocks. The little that did disolve madecthe broth extremely bitter.


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## zwiller (Nov 23, 2018)

Per the ingredients it's just STPP.  Shame on them for not making it clear how much to use.  I have had ALOT of success by weight with .5% in 10% liquid as an injection.  I find the liquid must be warmed to assist dissolving.  Quick nuke works great.  Dissolve it FIRST before salt etc.  Put in fridge to cool a few moments.  I would not advise using it all unless going by weight.  VERY small amounts here.  Think gram scale to a tenth.  IE 1lb is 454g so .5% is 454*.005=2.3g.  It's like a 1/4tsp.  Grab a small digital scale on ebay or amazon.  I've used STPP on lots of stuff (even hamburger) and totally hooked on it.


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## dward51 (Nov 23, 2018)

Sssssshhhhh.... you are not supposed to give up the secret hamburger recipe.   Yep, phosphates help burgers too!


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## chopsaw (Nov 23, 2018)

Found a good price on a picnic shoulder today , so got it to cure a ham . 
So using a 10% pump of the meat weight my liquid was just under 2 cups and the STPP was right at 2 TBLS . Which was a little more than 1/8 cup for the 2 cups liquid . 

I'm using grams , but stating cups due to the " 1/8 cup to 1 cup water " directions . 

I put it in a mason jar . Shaken not stirred ,,, in this order :
stpp mix 
sugar mix 
salt mix
cure mix .


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## pc farmer (Nov 23, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> Found a good price on a picnic shoulder today , so got it to cure a ham .
> So using a 10% pump of the meat weight my liquid was just under 2 cups and the STPP was right at 2 TBLS . Which was a little more than 1/8 cup for the 2 cups liquid .
> 
> I'm using grams , but stating cups due to the " 1/8 cup to 1 cup water " directions .
> ...




At .5 %? STTP


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## chopsaw (Nov 23, 2018)

Going by my scale should be close to that . Meat weight was 8 1/2 pounds . Was shooting for .4% using my notes from the last time I did a picnic .


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## daveomak (Nov 23, 2018)

If you are planning on injecting STPP, weigh out ~0.4% of the meat...  (0.004 X #'s of meat in grams) and dilute in your liquid before anything else is added..  (plain water)...  Following directions on the package may not be correct as those directions could, and possibly are, for commercial processors...


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## danbono (Dec 25, 2018)

Hi All Do phosphates work in the making of fresh and smoked sausage?  I'm looking for something to retain more moisture in my sausages.
Thanks Dan


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## daveomak (Dec 25, 2018)

There are many phosphates on the market...   which ones are you speaking of....   
These are for meat...  
each has a different property...  
Each does something different....  
DO NOT randomly chose a phosphate for meat additions...


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## daveomak (Dec 25, 2018)

*Annex C: Use of Phosphate Salts and Nitrites in the Preparation of Meat Products*

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/me...ter-4/annex-c/eng/1370525150531/1370525354148

*Use of Phosphates in Sausage*

https://meatsci.osu.edu/node/125

..


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## daveomak (Dec 25, 2018)

jcam222 said:


> I bought a bag of the Moisture Magic. I did not have good luck and wondered if anybody ne else could point out what I might have been doing wrong. 1) Despite multiple attempts I could not get it to disolve. Whether mixing in a bowl or in a shaker cup it pretty much just caked up into gravel. I followed 1/8 cup per cup of liquid. 2) To me the minor amount that did disolve gave the broth an intensely bitter taste.     I used up about half a $24 bag and ended up using none in my cook. Anyone tell me what I might have done wrong?



Follow the directions....  _Simply mix ⅛ cup of the Moisture Magic Meat injection with 1 cup of distilled water_  ...  It's needs to be added FIRST to your solution...    Distilled water is best to insure NO CLUMPING.....  The amounts they cite are for 0.5% of their mix to add....


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## danbono (Dec 25, 2018)

daveomak said:


> *Annex C: Use of Phosphate Salts and Nitrites in the Preparation of Meat Products*
> 
> http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/me...ter-4/annex-c/eng/1370525150531/1370525354148
> 
> ...


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## danbono (Jan 7, 2019)

dward51 said:


> I'll add a 3rd opinion that 1/8th cup sound like a huge amount.
> 
> I use Butcher & Packer #414 "special binder" and AmesPhos and neither of them are anywhere near that high a ratio.   What quantity of meat was that 1/8th cup in a cup of water supposed to mix with?  B&P 414 is 2 ounces (by weight) to 25 pounds of ground meat.  That works out to just 11.34 grams in 5 pounds of meat.  AmesPhos is 0.3 to 0.5% of the total weight of meat, so for 5 pounds that would be 6.8 to 11.34 grams for the same 5 pounds of meat (5 pounds of meat is 2268 grams x 0.003 for 0.3% etc...).
> 
> ...



Hi I was on BP's website I couldn't find  B&P 414??/
THanks Dan


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## chopsaw (Jan 7, 2019)

danbono said:


> Hi I was on BP's website I couldn't find B&P 414??/
> THanks Dan



http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26_103&products_id=895


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

This is what I found....  their directions aren't very clear...   Use 0.5% per pound of meat...  add to 5-10% meat weight in water...   

*Brine Pumping Phosphate(1lb) 450 Super Phosphate*


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

Thanks Chop....


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## chopsaw (Jan 7, 2019)

It's under sausage making supplies , meat binders .


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## zwiller (Jan 7, 2019)

Always wanted to ask and seems the perfect time.  What the heck are the differences between 414 and 450?  I have both and they both act the same to me.  Wonder if 450 "super" works faster but I cannot for the life of me find how long it takes these to work.


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## chopsaw (Jan 7, 2019)

zwiller said:


> Always wanted to ask and seems the perfect time.  What the heck are the differences between 414 and 450?  I have both and they both act the same to me.  Wonder if 450 "super" works faster but I cannot for the life of me find how long it takes these to work.


Well , just read thru both , my take is the 450 is for liquid injection and the 414 is added dry into meat mixed for sausage .


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## zwiller (Jan 7, 2019)

That's my understanding too.  What is funny though is 414 dissolves easier.


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## chopsaw (Jan 7, 2019)

zwiller said:


> That's my understanding too.  What is funny though is 414 dissolves easier.


You talking about having and using both ? I was wondering what your experience was .


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## zwiller (Jan 7, 2019)

I always dissolve mine and rest overnight so I think that might negate seeing any difference.  Definitely no taste difference.  450 seems much finer than 414.  Results seem the same to me but predict that if I ran some time experiments 450 probably works faster.


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## chopsaw (Jan 7, 2019)

I was wondering about the grain size . Any chance it's the same formula , just the 450 is ground more ?


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## danbono (Jan 7, 2019)

Thanks How did I miss seeing the 414. Does this stuff work good for fresh sausages and smoked ones?
Dan


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## danbono (Jan 10, 2019)

danbono said:


> Thanks How did I miss seeing the 414. Does this stuff work good for fresh sausages and smoked ones?
> Dan



Hi All So does this stuff work good on both fresh and smoked sausage?
Thanks Dan


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## daveomak (Jan 10, 2019)

OK, I found this on phosphates...  450 and 414 may be what is described below....    don't know which is which....  Someone may want to drop a note to BP....  and ask them...  or figure it out from the product description...  

*Phosphates*
http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E06.htm

Levels used: 0.05 – 0.5%

Phosphates have a wide application in the meat processing industry and improve binding and texture in processed meat products. They directly *increase the water-holding capacity* by raising the pH as their own pH is alkaline (above 7.0). Phosphates also stabilize the texture of meat products by *increasing protein solubility* in connection with salt and *reduce lipid oxidation/rancidity* and hence the occurrence of negative flavours. Phosphates have also shown the ability to *reduce microbial growth*. The most common phosphates used in meat processing are:

*Sodium tripoly-phosphate STPP (pH 9.8) *
*Sodium di-phosphate SDP (pH 7.3)*

For meat preparations such as sausage mixes, where phosphates are added as dry powder, phosphates with moderate alkaline effect are preferred, in particular *di-phosphates*. The usual dose is 0.03 % (see page 134). Di-phosphates are the most effective form of increasing water binding. However, di-phosphates have a low water solubility. Thus, for meat curing brines containing phosphates (see page 179), the more soluble* poly-phosphates* can be used.


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