# Amount of Sodium Nitrites



## mosov (May 17, 2011)

Pignit wrote this way back in Jan of 2010:

_"Prague #1 (Insta-Cure #1, Modern Cure, DC #1, DQ #1, et. al., all the '#1's) is 6.25% sodium nitrite and 93.75% salt. It's used in dry cures and in brine cures, primarily for meat that will be smoked (though not necessarily) and cooked for service. *It's used at the rate of 1oz/25lbs meat or 1 level teaspoon/5lbs meat."*_

Question about last sentence.  Are these usage rates for both dry _and _wet curing?  So if I'm doing two 5 lb pork bellies, one brined and one rubbed, do I use one level Tsp for each method?

Thx, TG


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## fpnmf (May 17, 2011)

Try using the handy dandy search tool..

There is tons of info about cures/curing.

Also read this...http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts  

and this  http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/  

and this  http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/  

OOOPS!!!!!! AFTER REREADING THIS I SEE WHERE I MADE THE MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!

 The short answer is...>>>YES.<<<<<  THE RIGHT ANSWER IS HELL NO!!!

Can I remove the dunce cap now????

 Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## solaryellow (May 17, 2011)

MoSov said:


> Pignit wrote this way back in Jan of 2010:
> 
> _"Prague #1 (Insta-Cure #1, Modern Cure, DC #1, DQ #1, et. al., all the '#1's) is 6.25% sodium nitrite and 93.75% salt. It's used in dry cures and in brine cures, primarily for meat that will be smoked (though not necessarily) and cooked for service. *It's used at the rate of 1oz/25lbs meat or 1 level teaspoon/5lbs meat."*_
> 
> ...


No. That is the rate for rubbing the cure on the meat or what you are calling "dry curing". The correct technical answer is that you are trying to stay under a certain parts per million. The rule of thumb with brining or "wet curing" is that the amount of cure you use in a brine is proportionate to the amount of brine and not necessarily the size of the meat.


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## beer-b-q (May 17, 2011)

This might be helpful to you. 

Here is the link to the full article: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing


> [h2]How to Apply Cures[/h2]
> Well, there are two approaches:
> 
> Like an amateur - collecting hundreds of recipes and relying blindly on each of them. You lose a recipe and you don’t know what to do. And how do you know they contain the right amount of cure?
> ...


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## DanMcG (May 17, 2011)

Well I agree with the Yes and the No. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I think we all agree the dry rub amount is correct .

When you're talking about an immersion cure (not a pumped and wet cured product) then you need to calculate the amount of cure using the weight of meat *plus* the weight of the brine.  so say you had 10 lbs of pork and 1 gallon of water ( about 18 pounds total or 8172 grams ) it would be (Sorry but I like working in grams  ))))))))                )

28g x .0625% x 1,000,000 */ *8172g. =214ppm  more then the usda's recommended max of 200ppm

If you were to use 2 gallons of water it would work out to 137ppm

I'd say the oz is right...... if you make up enough brine.

for more info on the subject check out the USDA's inspectors hand book starting on page 21

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf


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## fpnmf (May 17, 2011)

AmountCure #1 in ouncesCure #1 in gramsCure #1 in teaspoons1 gallon (8.33 lbs) of water4.212020 (6 Tbs)
 There is no way I would put 6 tablespoons of #1 in a gallon of water...

Check out Pops  curing/brine recipe....1 tablespoon per gallon..he knows what he is talking about...

  Craig


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## alblancher (May 17, 2011)

Interesting article Beer-B-Q  I'm going to have to refer to that link.   Funny she doesn't mention Cure 2 for hams and long cure time sausages.  I'll have to do a bit more reading and see what she says.


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## alblancher (May 17, 2011)

Where they throw me off is percent pickup or percent absorbed during immersion.   You could weigh the meat before and after but that doesn't account for the water weight lost from the meat vs the water/cure weight added during the cure.  Fortunately minimum safe concentrations are pretty low,  we cure at higher concentrations knowing we will be above minimum safe levels and below max safe level as long as we follow somewhat close to proper procedures.


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## DanMcG (May 17, 2011)

immersion cures are a crap shoot at best.. the best thing to do is get a needle and inject  the meat with what you want for a percent pick up and be done with it


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## solaryellow (May 17, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> immersion cures are a crap shoot at best.. the best thing to do is get a needle and inject  the meat with what you want for a percent pick up and be done with it




Dammit Dan. I have a first attempt at a black ham that has been in the fridge for 28 days and has another 14 to go doing an immersion cure with sodium nitrate. I don't need you telling me it is a crapshoot at best right now. Tell me it is going to be alright and that I look pretty tonight.


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## DanMcG (May 17, 2011)

You're lookin damn good tonight Joel! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





    Can't wait to see the ham!


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## smokey mo (May 18, 2011)

solaryellow said:


> Dammit Dan. I have a first attempt at a black ham that has been in the fridge for 28 days and has another 14 to go doing an immersion cure with sodium nitrate. I don't need you telling me it is a crapshoot at best right now. Tell me it is going to be alright and that I look pretty tonight.




I am sure what he meant is you will be the prettiest bell at the ball....or something like that....uh...right...ok.


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## SmokinAl (May 19, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> AmountCure #1 in ouncesCure #1 in gramsCure #1 in teaspoons1 gallon (8.33 lbs) of water4.212020 (6 Tbs)
> There is no way I would put 6 tablespoons of #1 in a gallon of water...
> 
> Check out Pops  curing/brine recipe....1 tablespoon per gallon..he knows what he is talking about...
> ...




I'm with Craig on this one. I just asked Pops this same question. Here's his answer.

I have one more question. On the bag of cure #1 it says to use 3 oz. to 1 gal. of water. 3 oz. is 5 tablespoons. Your recipe calls for only 1 tablespoon. Could you explain.

Thank-you, 

Al






Pops6927
Today at 5:29 am

that is the maximum concentration of cure you can use.  My dad discovered 60 years ago that if you reduce the amount of cure and cured for a longer period of time, the product is more tender, tenderizing naturally over time.  More cure and less time gives a less tender, more rubbery finished product.  1 tbsp to a gallon of water gets the job done more than sufficiently, and waiting a day or three longer shows that patience is a virtue, lol!  A good example is boiled ham.  From hog to sandwich, the total production time is 24-36 hours.  Would you call it tender or rubbery, lol?


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## bob1961 (May 19, 2011)

ok now what bout venison jerky that you marinate over night ???....do you still use the 1 tsp to 5lbs of meat ratio it says to....i use non-heated moving air to dry my jerky for at least 12 hours after blotting as much out of the meat of marinate with paper towels....what should i follow then ??..........bob

....


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## BGKYSmoker (May 19, 2011)

nepas is staying out of this one cuz it looks like it can get uuuuuuugly


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## alblancher (May 20, 2011)

Nepas,

I'll make it ugly for you    "Either inject or use a dry cure"

Al


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## solaryellow (May 21, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Nepas,
> 
> I'll make it ugly for you    "Either inject or use a dry cure"
> 
> Al




Or you could try taking the training wheels off...

I couldn't resist. ;o)


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## fpnmf (May 21, 2011)

Hehehehehehehehe!!!   Don't be mean!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	






solaryellow said:


> Or you could try taking the training wheels off...
> 
> I couldn't resist. ;o)


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## SmokinAl (May 21, 2011)

Sorry guys but this is one thread that I think should remain on the serious side. You may have folks on here whether members or lurkers that aren't familiar with cure #1 & think that it is just another additive to use, whether wet or dry. They need to know if you don't get it right you may be endangering your health. I have used both the recommended amount of cure on the bag of cure #1 & the amount Pops recommends & I am going to follow Pops guidelines from now on. If the meat will cure with less curing salts and just more time I think this would be the healthy alternative. This is just my opinion & I would suggest anyone who is contemplating using a cure for the first time to do a lot of research.


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## solaryellow (May 21, 2011)

SmokinAl said:


> Sorry guys but this is one thread that I think should remain on the serious side. You may have folks on here whether members or lurkers that aren't familiar with cure #1 & think that it is just another additive to use, whether wet or dry. They need to know if you don't get it right you may be endangering your health. I have used both the recommended amount of cure on the bag of cure #1 & the amount Pops recommends & I am going to follow Pops guidelines from now on. If the meat will cure with less curing salts and just more time I think this would be the healthy alternative. This is just my opinion & I would suggest anyone who is contemplating using a cure for the first time to do a lot of research.




To be a little more serious, I would hope anyone that is curing meat HAS DONE A TON OF RESEARCH before giving it a try. There are some very serious risks if you get it wrong. I have used Pops' recipes in the past with great success and it is important to know that Pops has a lot of experience under his belt and probably has more knowledge of the process than we can ever hope to pry out of his skull. That being said, throwing up blanket statements about implicit trust in a person despite it not being what the FDA and professional sausage makers agree to does concern me. There are a lot of principles that have not been discussed in this thread like equalization and the chemistry behind the art of cured meat. I have met fpnmf in person and can attest that he is a great guy, his take on brines is completely wrong and could lead to someone getting sick. Do the research, investigate the chemistry and explore the art of cured meat for yourself before trying it. Nobody here wants to see anyone else get sick or worse because somebody took somebody else's advice on the internet.


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

Smoken Al and Solar Yellow

Thanks for throwing up the yellow flags.  I had just finished typing a rant about the same things you mentioned when I decided to see if there where any new responses.  I'll save it for next time when your not around to remind everyone that  "NEWBIES NEED TO FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS"

Al


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## DanMcG (May 21, 2011)

Curing meat is an art and a science,  and from what I learned over the years is there are a multitude of ways to achieve the same end result.

 I go by what the USDA has posted as safe, not because they are right or wrong  but they map out a certain standard that you can us for a baseline and you know it will be safe,. Once you understand it you can fudge  the recipe if you want.

There's nothing better then a good ugly discussion about a subject to help people understand.... so lets get on with it.


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

Dan,

Do we need the Nitrates to Nitrites to NO thing again?


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## fpnmf (May 21, 2011)

UMMMM I went back and reread my first post and saw that I made an error... I fixed it!!

  Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## solaryellow (May 21, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Dan,
> 
> Do we need the Nitrates to Nitrites to NO thing again?




I think what we really need is a good conversation about equalization and the difference between a dry rub cure and a brine/pickle.


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## Bearcarver (May 21, 2011)

I can come in here as an outsider, because so far I haven't used any cure #1.

I have so far always used TQ.

However, since I can read all of your comments, I must mention that going by a set process, as far as how much cure #1, and how long to cure is one thing, and going by one of Pops numerous plans to cut down on sodium is another thing.

People must know what they're doing, because if you use one of Pops' lower amounts of cure #1, and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.

That is one of the problems with a Pro like Pops doing fancy things to cut sodium, and telling this whole board how to do it. Anyone using those various methods had better follow what he does to a T, and not mix this amount of cure Pops uses, with the length of time he uses for a different method.

I hope this makes sense to others.

It kinda tells me that using the regular "higher" amount of cure & the curing time that goes with it all of the time, is safer than trying to follow a guy who knows exactly what he's doing, and maybe getting mixed up while following his methods.

I hope I'm not the only one who can understand my gibberish on this.

Also understand, I'm not saying people shouldn't follow what Pops does (The man is an ACE !!!!), just make sure, if you follow him, you follow him exactly, and don't confuse parts of one of his methods with parts of another of his methods.

Just my 2 Piasters,

Bear


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## solaryellow (May 21, 2011)

I know exactly what you are saying and agree whole heartedly Bear. Although I would hope someone reads at least a book or two before implicitly trusting someone else's recipe that defies (hopefully) common sense. And what I mean by that is take pork for example. Who in their right mind would leave pork at room temps or slightly above for 10 - 12 hours? Someone who read a few books about curing meat properly I hope.


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

I have always been told that Cure 1 is only active for 3 days at normal refrigerator temperatures.  I would not be comfortable saying lower concentrations of Cure 1 for a longer period would still be safe.  Out of respect for the people that feel that process is safe I will defer to their experience but I am still troubled with assuming you can make that change in USDA accepted practices.

I am still uncomfortable with the use of TQ in bacon.  It is widely used by respected members of this forum and I have tried several time with absolutely no success to get clarification from Morton's.


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## fpnmf (May 21, 2011)

>>>>>and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.  

See post number 7 below..one several of us subscribed to...

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/104221/using-a-brine-to-cure-meat  

  Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## Bearcarver (May 21, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> >>>>>and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.
> 
> See post number 7 below..one several of us subscribed to...
> 
> ...


Yup---That's what I meant---Thanks for finding an example.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Did you find that with the Handy Dandy, or did you already have it in your bag of tricks?

Bear


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## solaryellow (May 21, 2011)

alblancher said:


> I have always been told that Cure 1 is only active for 3 days at normal refrigerator temperatures.  I would not be comfortable saying lower concentrations of Cure 1 for a longer period would still be safe.  Out of respect for the people that feel that process is safe I will defer to their experience but I am still troubled with assuming you can make that change in USDA accepted practices.
> 
> I am still uncomfortable with the use of TQ in bacon.  It is widely used by respected members of this forum and I have tried several time with absolutely no success to get clarification from Morton's.




I agree with you Al. The usage of TQ has always been of concern to me due to the fact it contains nitrates. Unconverted nitrates and nitrites means nitrosamine when frying bacon which is widely accepted as a cause of cancer. While I am dubious of modern day science in many instances, I do want to reiterate in this topic that there is a risk associated with curing meats.

Edit: My mind was working faster than my hands.


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

solaryellow said:


> I agree with you Al. The usage of TQ has always been of concern to me due to the fact it contains nitrates. Nitrates not converted to nitrites means nitrosamine when frying bacon which is widely accepted as a cause of cancer. While I am dubious of modern day science in many instances, I do want to reiterate in this topic that there is a risk associated with curing meats.


I would like to add that health risks associated with consuming properly cured and prepared meats is very low.  Proper curing extends shelf life and improves the taste and texture of lower quality cuts of meat.   All bets are off if using improper or unproven techniques. If you reduce the concentration of cure in the process proper refrigeration, sanitation, hygiene and cooking becomes much more critical.  This is the reason I ask all new sausage makers to follow USDA guidlines and estabished recipes.  These guidlines take into consideration that most newbies tend to be unfamiliar or careless with the rest of the process.


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## bob1961 (May 21, 2011)

ok what should i search for in the way i posted how i make my venison jerky by dry non heated moving air....i used the per pound method in a marinate that was bout 2 cups liquid that 2.5 pounds of aged venison strips....i can't see much of a difference in the amounts of meat and #1 cure....i just want to get it right so no body gets sick..........bob

....


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

Bob, I made beef jerky for years with nothing more then soy sauce, salt and spices in a very low oven or dehydrator.  I wish I could give you advice on what amounts of cure to use.  I think the primary preservative of jerky is the salt and the fact that there is so little moisture in the meat that the bacteria are surpressed. 

Marianski says that the USDA requires wild game including venison to be either cured or heated to 165 before drying to kill triconosis.

A recipe on pg 522 of their book is:

1kg venison

80 ml soy sauce

15ml worcestershire sauce

2.8g powdered garlic

2 g black pepper

1.5g dried juniper berries

cut meat into 1/4 inch thick strips

bring marinade to full boil over medium heat

add a few meat strips making sure they are completly covered by mainade reheat to full boil

remove the meat strips and place on drying screen,  repeat till all meat strips have been precooked

dry at 140 degreesF   you can apply smoke

jerky is done when a cool piece when bent cracks but doesn't break.

Store in plastic bag in refrigerator

I will look around tomorro for other recipes that use cure.


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## alblancher (May 21, 2011)

Rytek Kutas in his book "Great Sausage Reipes and Meat Curing" acknowledges the need to treat meat potentially infested with trichinae by proper freezing using USDA guidlines, another approved treatment for the parasite.

He provides several recipes but standard is

3 bs venison

1 t salt

1 t Cure 1

1 t onion powder

1 t garlic powder

1 t black pepper

1/4 c soy sauce

1/3c worcestershire sauce

Prep meat the same way as previously described

Combine all ingrediants and marinate in refrigerator 24 hours turning several times

dry

having the Cure1 removes some of the requirements of higher drying temps as described by Marianski

Please remember that Cure 1 does not kill parasites.  The pretreatment kills the parasite


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## Bearcarver (May 22, 2011)

The *"Morton Home Meat Curing"* book has you mix (Per pound of Beef or Game): 

TQ-----------------------1/2 ounce

Sugar-------------------1tsp

black pepper-----------1/2 tsp

garlic powder----------1/2 tsp

Cut strips 1/2" X 1 1/2".

Rub all surfaces of meat with this mixture.

Place in plastic food storage bag for 1 Hour. (Bear does 2 hours)

After curing, rinse strips under cold running water.

Pat dry with paper towels.

Cook meat to internal temp of 160˚.

Dry meat in home dehydrator following manufacturer's instructions.

Place Jerky in airtight jars or plastic bags.

Store in cool, dry place or freeze.

Note: I don't use a dehydrator. I just smoke it long enough to dry it to the consistency I like.

Bear


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## bob1961 (May 22, 2011)

thx guys....ok so i seen freezing meat helps, would freezing the deer meat before defrosting it to go into my marinate with the #1 in the tsp to 5 lb meat ratio then....i don't want any body getting sick or worse, once again thx guys........bob

....


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## alblancher (May 22, 2011)

Bob,

Find a link to the USDA food safety literature or search for maybe "triconosis and freezing"

http://www.mass.gov/Eeohhs2/docs/dph/disease_reporting/guide/trichinosis.rtf  

Go to section 4 part D


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## bob1961 (May 23, 2011)

thx alb.............bob

....


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## exhaustedspark (Jul 2, 2011)

I think what bothers me most is the opinions without stating this is not approved by the USDA

I know of many experts but if it does not follow the USDA i do not do it. I am the guy that leaves the meat deluxe pizza out on the counter over night and loves it in the am. Best breakfast ever. However all safety guidelines say don't do that.

Honest this is not an attack on any one. 

Karl


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## biaviian (Jul 2, 2011)

ExhaustedSpark said:


> I am the guy that leaves the meat deluxe pizza out on the counter over night and loves it in the am.


My fiancee does this and it drives me nuts; I'm crazy about food safety.


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## diggingdogfarm (Jul 2, 2011)

USDA? Safety? Pizza? You do, but you don't!?

Yeah...I've had a few beers tonight too!

~Dig


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## meateater (Jul 3, 2011)

ExhaustedSpark said:


> I think what bothers me most is the opinions without stating this is not approved by the USDA
> 
> I know of many experts but if it does not follow the USDA i do not do it. I am the guy that leaves the meat deluxe pizza out on the counter over night and loves it in the am. Best breakfast ever. However all safety guidelines say don't do that.
> 
> ...


You mean like this one last night. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/108496/broccoli-casserole#post_656084


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## exhaustedspark (Jul 4, 2011)

meateater said:


> You mean like this one last night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meateater i do not know if i missed something or not. That could be because of my accident or just because the wife keeps hitting me up along the head. Was there and attake on the site. I did not see it. By the way that sure looks like great Bracks tho. Love em with smoked cheese.

Happy 4 and God Bless.

Karl


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## exhaustedspark (Jul 4, 2011)

Biaviian said:


> My fiancee does this and it drives me nuts; I'm crazy about food safety.


Yea the wife agrees with you. But if she has not learned to deal with it after 35 or 36 yrs then that is her problem.

Yes she is out of the room so i am able to get away with the tuff talk with her smaken me.

Karl


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