# Rub is getting mushy



## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

Anyone know roughly how long it takes for rub to set on meat so it wont turn to mush and come off during a steam process. I have been practicing ribs recently with higher temps and spritzing more often but cant get the bark to set. Keeps coming off when applying sauce.


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## rgautheir20420 (Sep 30, 2014)

I'm a little confused here. You're talking about steaming ribs and building a bark? The bark is formed from the drying out of the exterior of the meat and crisping it up. The process is helped with a seasoning layer, but it will never form if you're introducing a bunch of steam into the cooking process.

If you have a water pan in your smoker, I'd suggest try removing it the next time you cook ribs and do them without foiling the whole way. You should get a nice bark this way.


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## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

I smoke them for 2-3 hours depending on what temp I am cooking at. sometime I will foil and sometime I will put in pan on a rack with liquid in the bottom. If they are in foil the rub is coming off. If I pan them the rub can easily be wiped off when I pull them out to sauce and firm up.


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## rgautheir20420 (Sep 30, 2014)

In both cases, you usually won't end up with a hard bark. There's too much moisture to get a hard bark with foiling and having them sit in a pan of liquid. Last time I did the 3-2-1 method, I kicked my MES30 all the way up for the last hour and that helped to make a decent crispy bite to the finished product. 

I'd try going unfoiled all the way through. By removing the moisture, the seasoning and outer layer should dry up and get a crispy bark.


----------



## oldschoolbbq (Sep 30, 2014)

This is JMHO!!!  I would rub them just prior to placing on the Smoker. Leave them alone for 4.5 to 5 hrs. (this means  'no sprits' or looking) at them period...

Open smoker , look at bone pull back and  do bend test and judge from there . . .













bbq shots 001.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ Nov 1, 2012





 test  at 5.5hrs. , and













IMG_0009.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ May 30, 2014





 back on bones . . . out they come

Then eat... Ribs are best right off the Smoker . . .

Have fun and . . .


----------



## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

i Have played around with not foiling but I like the added flavor when foiling. I am trying to figure out the best for competitions. Every amateur contest I competed in I walked in ribs but that was a mix with certified and celebrity judges. I have been doing the same technique with foiling in pro comps but finishing middle of the pack. You think starting at 300-325 for the first hour or so then backing it down to 275 when panning will help set the bark more?


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## gary s (Sep 30, 2014)

Hey oldschool, your rib picture is making me hungry  Nice looking racks !!!!   Yeah Too much moisture , are you rubbing way before you smoke?

Gary S


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## jarjarchef (Sep 30, 2014)

If you wrap or place in a pan with a liquid or in your words steam them. No matter what you do before that for a bark or crust will not work. Besides you are placing the ribs in a closed box for anywhere from 30min to an hour before they see the judges. They will loose any bark you form before hand anyways. When I judge I dont look for a bark on ribs. I look for color, doneness,  texture, flavor and moisture. 

When you look at the box, does it make you think I cant wait to try these or they look ok. Do they look moist with clean cuts or do they look dry and or cut with a chainsaw?  Is it a nice glaze of sauce or is it looking for a life jacket because it is drowning in sauce?

Texture are you able to bite and leave the rest on the bone or does it all come with you or do you have to knaw on it like a dog?

Flavor is a personal thing. What you like the person next to you may not. I personally like a mixture of sweet, salty, heat and tang. I dont wany a salt lick or a candy cane. I also don't want to  think I am eating hot wings or taking shots of vinegar. 

The way judging is done in comps is very subjective.  You can get a table that is very generous and give very high scores. You can have a table that has a tougher scale and rate lower. But if you were to compare the product the table with lower scores can actually be much better. I have also seen where 1 judge can kill an entire table with very low scores.

If you have not judged I would suggest it. It is a great way to get a feel for what they are saying behind the scenes.  Then you can adjust your cooks as you see fit.


----------



## cliffcarter (Sep 30, 2014)

GolfPro2301 said:


> Anyone know roughly how long it takes for rub to set on meat so it wont turn to mush and come off during a steam process. I have been practicing ribs recently with higher temps and spritzing more often but cant get the bark to set. Keeps coming off when applying sauce.


IMHO you are most likely spraying too much, too often. Eliminate that and see how you like the ribs.


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## jbills5 (Oct 1, 2014)

cliffcarter said:


> IMHO you are most likely spraying too much, too often. Eliminate that and see how you like the ribs.


This.  If you are spraying before the wrapping phase, stop doing that.  I used to do that and all my rub would come off and I was giving my ribs a sugar bath from apple juice which was causing the outside to turn black because the sugars were burning.


----------



## gary s (Oct 1, 2014)

I rub my ribs just prior to putting them on the smoker, I usually spritz and wrap,  never had my rub fall off   here is a post I did a while back with ribs and other stuff 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/168682/trying-out-new-paint-job-on-my-rf-with-ribs

Gary


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 2, 2014)

If the Rub is coming off...You are using too much. Lots of Rub on a Butt gives flavor to mix in when pulled. But lots of Rub on ribs is just not needed...JJ


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## dtj16 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey JarJar.  What color do you look for on ribs when judging?  I got this crazy shine after adding some Makers Mark to my rub/ AJ spritz on my last run at Bbacks, this was the result....












image.jpg



__ dtj16
__ Oct 3, 2014


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## dtj16 (Oct 3, 2014)

That is before any sauce went on them.


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## daveomak (Oct 3, 2014)

Rubbed, over night in the refer, no spritzing, no water pan, no moisture of any kind added....    Good bark and moist rib meat.....

..... click on pics to enlarge.....













Ribs 1.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Oct 3, 2014


















Ribs zoom in.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Oct 3, 2014


----------



## jarjarchef (Oct 3, 2014)

dtj16 said:


> Hey JarJar.  What color do you look for on ribs when judging?  I got this crazy shine after adding some Makers Mark to my rub/ AJ spritz on my last run at Bbacks, this was the result....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For me the range you have is good. The middle rack looks to be more even in its coloring (could be lighting). 

I see it at work too, but people will spread their glaze or egg wash (baking) on their food item and it is uneven. When it sets and starts to color you will see uneven areas that color diffrently.  Sometimes it is because they try to put too much on at one time, the sauce could be too thick or they are just in a rush and showing no love for the food. For me you want an even coloring and pretty light glaze. But keep in mind when you change regions or locations of comps, the preferences of the judges can change. That is why i would recommend for people to judge a few times in the areas they want to compete in to get some insight as to what the judges are looking for. Very few judges will travel more than a couple hours to a comp site. So the taste profiles can change a lot. 

Just remember it is all subjective to the judges you get. One may love your food and another may not. What is important is you enjoy the process and your friends and family like what you cook.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Oct 3, 2014)

Here is the result I get with my Foiling Juice...JJ








*Foiling Juice / Sweet Pulled Pork Finishing Sauce*

*Foiling Juice*

For each Rack of Ribs Combine:

1T Pork Rub, yours

1/2 Stick Butter

1/2C Cane Syrup... Dark Corn Syrup...or Honey

1/4C Apple Cider...or Juice

1T Molasses

Optional:

2T Vinegar, 2T Mustard and 1/4C Ketchup to make it more of a KC Style Glaze.

Simmer until a syrupy consistency.

Allow to cool for 5 minutes, pour over foiled Ribs and

run your 2 hour phase of 3-2-1. For the last phase return

the ribs to the smoker BUT reserve any Juice remaining

in the Foil. Simmer the Juice over med/low heat to reduce to a saucy thickness. Glaze the Ribs for presentation or service.

*For a Sweet Finishing Sauce for Pulled Pork:*  Make a Double batch, Butter optional.

Add 1/2 the batch to the Foil Pack or place it in a Pan with your Butt, when the IT hits 165*F.

Cover the pan with foil and continue to heat to 205*F for pulling.

At 205* rest or hold the Butt in a cooler wrapped in towels until ready to serve.

Pull the Pork and place it back in the pan with the pan Juices and any additional reserved Foiling Juice to moisten and Serve...OR... Bag and refrigerate until needed.

When re-heating place the Pulled Pork in a Pan or Crock pot and add reserved Foiling Juice or Apple Cider, as needed to make up the Juice that was absorbed while  the pork was refrigerated. Cover and re-heat in a pre-heated 325-350*F oven or on High in the crock pot to 165*F and Serve.

Note: the addition of the reserved Foiling Juice or Apple Cider should make the PP moist but not Swimming.

I was AMAZED...No additional sauce needed. ENJOY...JJ


----------



## padronman (Oct 3, 2014)

My guess is that your rub is on too thick and you are spraying it TOO much.  I never open the smoker to spray the ribs and always go REAL light on the rub.

Scott


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## huntmastershaun (Oct 4, 2014)

I apply mustard to ribs, then rub.. then on the smoker at 250 degrees.. after a couple hours a gently mop and don't drag the mop across the ribs.. then, I don't mop for the last hour.. I get a bad ass bark on mine. 













20140918_195033.jpg



__ huntmastershaun
__ Oct 4, 2014


----------



## jarjarchef (Oct 4, 2014)

For comps this is what I do.

Remove the membrane on back.
Coat with my rub. 
Let sit for 30 min to let the rub set.
Then into smoker at 250-275 for 3hrs. No peeking or spritz.
Wrap with butter, agave syrup, brown sugar and tiger sauce. Yes Johnny Trigg method.
Cokk for about an hour. 
Remove and save liquid. Place ribs back into smoker. Mix drippings with a little BBQ sauce for a little body. Lightly brush onto ribs and allow to set. Maybe 30 min.
Then dust with a very light finishing seasoning that has a bit of salt and heat.


This was the last box I did. Texture and taste were great, cutting and color a bit off. 












20140831_145239.jpg



__ jarjarchef
__ Oct 4, 2014


----------



## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

Anyone know roughly how long it takes for rub to set on meat so it wont turn to mush and come off during a steam process. I have been practicing ribs recently with higher temps and spritzing more often but cant get the bark to set. Keeps coming off when applying sauce.


----------



## rgautheir20420 (Sep 30, 2014)

I'm a little confused here. You're talking about steaming ribs and building a bark? The bark is formed from the drying out of the exterior of the meat and crisping it up. The process is helped with a seasoning layer, but it will never form if you're introducing a bunch of steam into the cooking process.

If you have a water pan in your smoker, I'd suggest try removing it the next time you cook ribs and do them without foiling the whole way. You should get a nice bark this way.


----------



## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

I smoke them for 2-3 hours depending on what temp I am cooking at. sometime I will foil and sometime I will put in pan on a rack with liquid in the bottom. If they are in foil the rub is coming off. If I pan them the rub can easily be wiped off when I pull them out to sauce and firm up.


----------



## rgautheir20420 (Sep 30, 2014)

In both cases, you usually won't end up with a hard bark. There's too much moisture to get a hard bark with foiling and having them sit in a pan of liquid. Last time I did the 3-2-1 method, I kicked my MES30 all the way up for the last hour and that helped to make a decent crispy bite to the finished product. 

I'd try going unfoiled all the way through. By removing the moisture, the seasoning and outer layer should dry up and get a crispy bark.


----------



## oldschoolbbq (Sep 30, 2014)

This is JMHO!!!  I would rub them just prior to placing on the Smoker. Leave them alone for 4.5 to 5 hrs. (this means  'no sprits' or looking) at them period...

Open smoker , look at bone pull back and  do bend test and judge from there . . .













bbq shots 001.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ Nov 1, 2012





 test  at 5.5hrs. , and













IMG_0009.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ May 30, 2014





 back on bones . . . out they come

Then eat... Ribs are best right off the Smoker . . .

Have fun and . . .


----------



## golfpro2301 (Sep 30, 2014)

i Have played around with not foiling but I like the added flavor when foiling. I am trying to figure out the best for competitions. Every amateur contest I competed in I walked in ribs but that was a mix with certified and celebrity judges. I have been doing the same technique with foiling in pro comps but finishing middle of the pack. You think starting at 300-325 for the first hour or so then backing it down to 275 when panning will help set the bark more?


----------



## gary s (Sep 30, 2014)

Hey oldschool, your rib picture is making me hungry  Nice looking racks !!!!   Yeah Too much moisture , are you rubbing way before you smoke?

Gary S


----------



## jarjarchef (Sep 30, 2014)

If you wrap or place in a pan with a liquid or in your words steam them. No matter what you do before that for a bark or crust will not work. Besides you are placing the ribs in a closed box for anywhere from 30min to an hour before they see the judges. They will loose any bark you form before hand anyways. When I judge I dont look for a bark on ribs. I look for color, doneness,  texture, flavor and moisture. 

When you look at the box, does it make you think I cant wait to try these or they look ok. Do they look moist with clean cuts or do they look dry and or cut with a chainsaw?  Is it a nice glaze of sauce or is it looking for a life jacket because it is drowning in sauce?

Texture are you able to bite and leave the rest on the bone or does it all come with you or do you have to knaw on it like a dog?

Flavor is a personal thing. What you like the person next to you may not. I personally like a mixture of sweet, salty, heat and tang. I dont wany a salt lick or a candy cane. I also don't want to  think I am eating hot wings or taking shots of vinegar. 

The way judging is done in comps is very subjective.  You can get a table that is very generous and give very high scores. You can have a table that has a tougher scale and rate lower. But if you were to compare the product the table with lower scores can actually be much better. I have also seen where 1 judge can kill an entire table with very low scores.

If you have not judged I would suggest it. It is a great way to get a feel for what they are saying behind the scenes.  Then you can adjust your cooks as you see fit.


----------



## cliffcarter (Sep 30, 2014)

GolfPro2301 said:


> Anyone know roughly how long it takes for rub to set on meat so it wont turn to mush and come off during a steam process. I have been practicing ribs recently with higher temps and spritzing more often but cant get the bark to set. Keeps coming off when applying sauce.


IMHO you are most likely spraying too much, too often. Eliminate that and see how you like the ribs.


----------



## jbills5 (Oct 1, 2014)

cliffcarter said:


> IMHO you are most likely spraying too much, too often. Eliminate that and see how you like the ribs.


This.  If you are spraying before the wrapping phase, stop doing that.  I used to do that and all my rub would come off and I was giving my ribs a sugar bath from apple juice which was causing the outside to turn black because the sugars were burning.


----------



## gary s (Oct 1, 2014)

I rub my ribs just prior to putting them on the smoker, I usually spritz and wrap,  never had my rub fall off   here is a post I did a while back with ribs and other stuff 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/168682/trying-out-new-paint-job-on-my-rf-with-ribs

Gary


----------



## chef jimmyj (Oct 2, 2014)

If the Rub is coming off...You are using too much. Lots of Rub on a Butt gives flavor to mix in when pulled. But lots of Rub on ribs is just not needed...JJ


----------



## dtj16 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey JarJar.  What color do you look for on ribs when judging?  I got this crazy shine after adding some Makers Mark to my rub/ AJ spritz on my last run at Bbacks, this was the result....












image.jpg



__ dtj16
__ Oct 3, 2014


----------



## dtj16 (Oct 3, 2014)

That is before any sauce went on them.


----------



## daveomak (Oct 3, 2014)

Rubbed, over night in the refer, no spritzing, no water pan, no moisture of any kind added....    Good bark and moist rib meat.....

..... click on pics to enlarge.....













Ribs 1.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Oct 3, 2014


















Ribs zoom in.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Oct 3, 2014


----------



## jarjarchef (Oct 3, 2014)

dtj16 said:


> Hey JarJar.  What color do you look for on ribs when judging?  I got this crazy shine after adding some Makers Mark to my rub/ AJ spritz on my last run at Bbacks, this was the result....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For me the range you have is good. The middle rack looks to be more even in its coloring (could be lighting). 

I see it at work too, but people will spread their glaze or egg wash (baking) on their food item and it is uneven. When it sets and starts to color you will see uneven areas that color diffrently.  Sometimes it is because they try to put too much on at one time, the sauce could be too thick or they are just in a rush and showing no love for the food. For me you want an even coloring and pretty light glaze. But keep in mind when you change regions or locations of comps, the preferences of the judges can change. That is why i would recommend for people to judge a few times in the areas they want to compete in to get some insight as to what the judges are looking for. Very few judges will travel more than a couple hours to a comp site. So the taste profiles can change a lot. 

Just remember it is all subjective to the judges you get. One may love your food and another may not. What is important is you enjoy the process and your friends and family like what you cook.


----------



## chef jimmyj (Oct 3, 2014)

Here is the result I get with my Foiling Juice...JJ








*Foiling Juice / Sweet Pulled Pork Finishing Sauce*

*Foiling Juice*

For each Rack of Ribs Combine:

1T Pork Rub, yours

1/2 Stick Butter

1/2C Cane Syrup... Dark Corn Syrup...or Honey

1/4C Apple Cider...or Juice

1T Molasses

Optional:

2T Vinegar, 2T Mustard and 1/4C Ketchup to make it more of a KC Style Glaze.

Simmer until a syrupy consistency.

Allow to cool for 5 minutes, pour over foiled Ribs and

run your 2 hour phase of 3-2-1. For the last phase return

the ribs to the smoker BUT reserve any Juice remaining

in the Foil. Simmer the Juice over med/low heat to reduce to a saucy thickness. Glaze the Ribs for presentation or service.

*For a Sweet Finishing Sauce for Pulled Pork:*  Make a Double batch, Butter optional.

Add 1/2 the batch to the Foil Pack or place it in a Pan with your Butt, when the IT hits 165*F.

Cover the pan with foil and continue to heat to 205*F for pulling.

At 205* rest or hold the Butt in a cooler wrapped in towels until ready to serve.

Pull the Pork and place it back in the pan with the pan Juices and any additional reserved Foiling Juice to moisten and Serve...OR... Bag and refrigerate until needed.

When re-heating place the Pulled Pork in a Pan or Crock pot and add reserved Foiling Juice or Apple Cider, as needed to make up the Juice that was absorbed while  the pork was refrigerated. Cover and re-heat in a pre-heated 325-350*F oven or on High in the crock pot to 165*F and Serve.

Note: the addition of the reserved Foiling Juice or Apple Cider should make the PP moist but not Swimming.

I was AMAZED...No additional sauce needed. ENJOY...JJ


----------



## padronman (Oct 3, 2014)

My guess is that your rub is on too thick and you are spraying it TOO much.  I never open the smoker to spray the ribs and always go REAL light on the rub.

Scott


----------



## huntmastershaun (Oct 4, 2014)

I apply mustard to ribs, then rub.. then on the smoker at 250 degrees.. after a couple hours a gently mop and don't drag the mop across the ribs.. then, I don't mop for the last hour.. I get a bad ass bark on mine. 













20140918_195033.jpg



__ huntmastershaun
__ Oct 4, 2014


----------



## jarjarchef (Oct 4, 2014)

For comps this is what I do.

Remove the membrane on back.
Coat with my rub. 
Let sit for 30 min to let the rub set.
Then into smoker at 250-275 for 3hrs. No peeking or spritz.
Wrap with butter, agave syrup, brown sugar and tiger sauce. Yes Johnny Trigg method.
Cokk for about an hour. 
Remove and save liquid. Place ribs back into smoker. Mix drippings with a little BBQ sauce for a little body. Lightly brush onto ribs and allow to set. Maybe 30 min.
Then dust with a very light finishing seasoning that has a bit of salt and heat.


This was the last box I did. Texture and taste were great, cutting and color a bit off. 












20140831_145239.jpg



__ jarjarchef
__ Oct 4, 2014


----------

