# Low and slow...the myth.



## fatty patty (Jul 28, 2014)

Lotta talk of keeping temp between 200-225 when smoking ribs, pork butts. Next time out try them at 250-275. Pork is much more forgiving than beef. As for chicken? Always hot and fast. In my experience brisket and other beef cuts requires the lower 225 and under temps.


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## hickorybutt (Jul 29, 2014)

I never smoke anything under 250...

Ribs (both beef and pork) = 250

Brisket = 270

Pork Shoulder = 300

Chicken = 300


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## diesel (Jul 29, 2014)

> I never smoke anything under 250...


Your are correct.  You are never smoking anything.   You are cooking.


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## hickorybutt (Jul 29, 2014)

Diesel said:


> Your are correct.  You are never smoking anything.   You are cooking.



You are correct as well.  But I still get a great smoke ring and always have plenty of smoke flavor, which is all I ask for.


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## 5oclocksomewher (Jul 29, 2014)

hickorybutt said:


> I never smoke anything under 250...
> 
> Ribs (both beef and pork) = 250
> Brisket = 270
> ...



I agree.  I even go a little hotter on my brisket and ribs.  Myron Mixon always preaches hot and fast is just as good as low and slow, and I'm a believer.  Myron's certainly got the credentials to back up what he says.


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## diesel (Jul 29, 2014)

I am sure the end product is good and if it makes you happy then fine.  But,  you are cooking the meat and not smoking it.  Low and slow allows the fat to render into the meat and not melt out.  The higher the temps the more risk you take of drying it out.

As for Myron,  He is not doing real BBQ anymore.  He is doing gourmet food.  If you inject as much "stuff" into your product as he does, then *cooking* it hot and fast will work just fine.

I guess I am just old school and like to take the time and effort to do slow and low.  I am not disagreeing with the hot and fast technique.  Heck, I do it sometimes myself and have also had good results.  I definitely cook chicken and turkey at higher temps (300-350). 

so I just want to be clear.... no disagreement here.

Aaron.


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## hickorybutt (Jul 29, 2014)

Diesel said:


> I am sure the end product is good and if it makes you happy then fine.  But,  you are cooking the meat and not smoking it.  Low and slow allows the fat to render into the meat and not melt out.  The higher the temps the more risk you take of drying it out.
> 
> As for Myron,  He is not doing real BBQ anymore.  He is doing gourmet food.  If you inject as much "stuff" into your product as he does, then *cooking* it hot and fast will work just fine.
> 
> ...


I've always been under the belief that anything under 275 degrees is low and slow.  A lot of traditional BBQ joints will cook meat between 250-275.  Franklin BBQ in Austin, TX runs their briskets at fairly high temps (275+).  I've smoked meat before at lower temps, and I really haven't noticed a difference in end product (including fat rendering) between 225-235 vs. 250-275 which is where I will do ribs and brisket.  And I've had the same results with pork shoulder running at 300.  

To each his own.  There are several ways to slice pie.


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## diesel (Jul 29, 2014)

Yes.. several ways to slice a pie.  But what you are now stating is difference between slicing a pie and digging in with a shovel.    BBQ joints *cook* at a higher temp because they need to get the product out on the table.  Franklin runs his smokers as high as 375 but he also recommends to cook the brisket at or below 250. 

we can keep this up all day.


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## sqwib (Jul 29, 2014)

Folks always confuse Low and Slow with smoking, they are two entirely different things and therefore should not be used interchangeably.


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## prudentsmoker (Jul 29, 2014)

I have been cooking my Thanksgiving turkey in the oven for years at 170. It takes twice as long, but the meat falls off the bones, is very juicy and I cook it uncovered without basting once.


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## geerock (Jul 29, 2014)

Diesel said:


> I am sure the end product is good and if it makes you happy then fine.  But,  you are cooking the meat and not smoking it.  Low and slow allows the fat to render into the meat and not melt out.  The higher the temps the more risk you take of drying it out.
> 
> As for Myron,  He is not doing real BBQ anymore.  He is doing gourmet food.  If you inject as much "stuff" into your product as he does, then *cooking* it hot and fast will work just fine.
> 
> ...



Just wondering when 250 became hot and fast?  And if you're telling me that any meat smoked over 250 renders the fat OUT of the meat thats dead solid wrong.  And you are cooking the meat when you using a chamber temp of 225.......you are just taking longer to do it.


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## diesel (Jul 29, 2014)

SQWIB has cleared everything up.


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## fwismoker (Jul 29, 2014)

Diesel said:


> Your are correct.  You are never smoking anything.   You are cooking.


All HOGWASH lol. 

I'd love to know where smoking stops and cooking begins. lol.  think about it y'all. 

Let's stop with the "smoking" & "cooking" nonsense and concentrate on what it takes to give food good flavor.


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## hickorybutt (Jul 29, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> Folks always confuse Low and Slow with smoking, they are two entirely different things and therefore should not be used interchangeably.


I'd be curious to see what the 'official' definitions of the words are.  Is there a widely accepted agreement on what these words actually mean?


Diesel said:


> BBQ joints *cook* at a higher temp because they need to get the product out on the table.


So are you saying running a pit at 225 is smoking but 275 is not?  50 degrees makes that much of a difference??  And even when you are at 225 you are still essentially "cooking" the meat.  So let's not say that 275 is cooking and 225 is not.

I'm not trying to sit here and foster an argument.  I just really don't see how all of these terms are THAT different.  225 is cooking just as 275 is.  Meat is normally cooked in an oven at temps higher than 300 degrees, so I would argue that anything under 300 degrees is low and slow.


FWIsmoker said:


> All HOGWASH lol.
> 
> I'd love to know where smoking stops and cooking begins. lol.  think about it y'all.
> 
> Let's stop with the "smoking" & "cooking" nonsense and concentrate on what it takes to give food good flavor.


Great post.


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## foamheart (Jul 29, 2014)

Sounds to me like the thread itself was baiting an argument.

There is no right way, there is no wrong way, there is no myth, and the best smoked food is what you are most happy with. What you do and enjoy is great, but maybe what I do and enjoy is different. There is no one perfect way.  Oh and low & slow or Hot and fast are myths?  Its good to know that after 1000's of years that Myron is the answer to smoking.

Enjoy your smoke.


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## diesel (Jul 29, 2014)

Yes.. I was wrong with when using the word "cooking".  I admit that.  I should have used the word grilling or maybe even roasting.  And yes there is a definition for smoking meat.  and it says that anything above 225 is no longer smoking meat.

I tried to find some links to where I am coming from on this.  Just I have always been told/taught smoking is no higher than 225.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/52407/definition-of-smoking

Here is another great link.. from foamheart.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/160698/time-and-temp-for-smoking

And the chart for temps and what happens to meat and fat at those temps.  


> And if you're telling me that any meat smoked over 250 renders the fat OUT of the meat thats dead solid wrong.


https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/b/be/beed66f8_TEMPERATURES.jpeg

OK.. I am done.  great smoking to everyone.


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## fwismoker (Jul 29, 2014)

These so called definitions are all subjective and will always be subjective.  Cooking something at  225* for 12 hours or at 300* for 7-8 hours will often bring about identical finished product.   The whole idea to BBQ is through time and experimentation find out what works out best for your liking and lifestyle. 

I'll give you an example.   I've recently developed a different cooking style for BB ribs.  My friend always cooks his BB the same way...low and slow for 4 hours give or take and my BB ribs might take an hour to hour and a half. (yes i didn't stutter).  

I cooked my BB ribs with his rubs so he could compare the difference from his which he had the day prior. All said and done he said mine were in the top 5 best he's ever had and couldn't put those 5 in any particular order.      IMO this is a pretty good example of there are different ways and temps to come up with quality "smoked" food at different temps and styles of cooking.


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## timberjet (Jul 29, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> Sounds to me like the thread itself was baiting an argument.
> 
> There is no right way, there is no wrong way, there is no myth, and the best smoked food is what you are most happy with. What you do and enjoy is great, but maybe what I do and enjoy is different. There is no one perfect way.  Oh and low & slow or Hot and fast are myths?  Its good to know that after 1000's of years that Myron is the answer to smoking.
> 
> Enjoy your smoke.


Yes! I was thinking the exact same thing. This post was meant to bait an argument. not solve a problem. no doubt about it. You do it your way and I will do it mine. Until I try it your way. Then I will probably go back to my way. hahaha


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## timberjet (Jul 29, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> These so called definitions are all subjective and will always be subjective.  Cooking something at  225* for 12 hours or at 300* for 7-8 hours will often bring about identical finished product.   The whole idea to BBQ is through time and experimentation find out what works out best for your liking and lifestyle.
> 
> I'll give you an example.   I've recently developed a different cooking style for BB ribs.  My friend always cooks his BB the same way...low and slow for 4 hours give or take and my BB ribs might take an hour to hour and a half. (yes i didn't stutter).
> 
> I cooked my BB ribs with his rubs so he could compare the difference from his which he had the day prior. All said and done he said mine were in the top 5 best he's ever had and couldn't put those 5 in any particular order.      IMO this is a pretty good example of there are different ways and temps to come up with quality "smoked" food at different temps and styles of cooking.


Boy, I hate to step into the line of fire here but to me, smoking meat is all about adding smoked flavor to the meat, rendering fat into the meat and break down connective tissue while ending up with a quality finished product. I just can't see how you can get good or thin blue smoke at 300 plus degrees. The other argument I have is that the more time the stuff lays in the smoke the better penetration of flavor will be achieved. Now you hot and fast guys may be under the assumption that meat takes no more smoke after a certain few hours or am I not correct? Are you saying that your hot and fast is BETTER? Or what is the exact argument here? If you are just arguing for the sake of arguing then take it to one of the forums that encourage that crap. I love this forum for being helpful and not drama filled back biting bull. Have a nice day.


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## fwismoker (Jul 29, 2014)

timberjet said:


> Boy, I hate to step into the line of fire here but to me, smoking meat is all about adding smoked flavor to the meat, rendering fat into the meat and break down connective tissue while ending up with a quality finished product. I just can't see how you can get good or thin blue smoke at 300 plus degrees. The other argument I have is that the more time the stuff lays in the smoke the better penetration of flavor will be achieved. Now you hot and fast guys may be under the assumption that meat takes no more smoke after a certain few hours or am I not correct? Are you saying that your hot and fast is BETTER? Or what is the exact argument here? If you are just arguing for the sake of arguing then take it to one of the forums that encourage that crap. I love this forum for being helpful and not drama filled back biting bull. Have a nice day.


I'd start with the fact that it isn't smoke that gives the best quality flavors but rather the combustion gasses from the wood that was burnt.   Do you know what comprises thin blue smoke or better yet what makes it appear thin and blue?


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## hickorybutt (Jul 29, 2014)

timberjet said:


> Boy, I hate to step into the line of fire here but to me, smoking meat is all about adding smoked flavor to the meat, rendering fat into the meat and break down connective tissue while ending up with a quality finished product. I just can't see how you can get good or thin blue smoke at 300 plus degrees. The other argument I have is that the more time the stuff lays in the smoke the better penetration of flavor will be achieved. Now you hot and fast guys may be under the assumption that meat takes no more smoke after a certain few hours or am I not correct? Are you saying that your hot and fast is BETTER? Or what is the exact argument here? If you are just arguing for the sake of arguing then take it to one of the forums that encourage that crap. I love this forum for being helpful and not drama filled back biting bull. Have a nice day.



I really think your post above is just stoking this fire (no pun intended).

My original post in this thread was just simply stating what temps I normally cook MY meals at.  I should have had the foresight to just stay off of this topic based on how the original poster started the conversation to begin with.

I'm making a prediction that this thread will be locked before long...

I'm moving on.


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## 5oclocksomewher (Jul 29, 2014)

Lot of passionate BBQers here today!!!  Well I guess we can all agree to disagree.  Good smoking to all.


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## geerock (Jul 29, 2014)

5oclocksomewher said:


> Lot of passionate BBQers here today!!!  Well I guess we can all agree to disagree.  Good smoking to all.



And good cooking to the rest of us.  :biggrin:


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## 5oclocksomewher (Jul 29, 2014)

LMAO!!!  I'm a cooker!!!


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## fwismoker (Jul 29, 2014)

geerock said:


> And good cooking to the rest of us.


Yes sir, but i hate it when i smell like cook!


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## jp61 (Jul 29, 2014)

I radiate my Q low (30%) and fast + liquid smoke. Can't tell the difference in the end product.


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## geerock (Jul 29, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Yes sir, but i hate it when i smell like cook!



FWI
That was funny!   : )


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## pig-a-liscious (Jul 29, 2014)

FYIsmoker,

I couldn't agree more with what you have said.

As Tuffy, Myron, Aaron Franklin would say with whom I have spoken with personally......."You are spot on" !! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Pig


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## dcarch (Jul 29, 2014)

I am not sure what the discussion is all about.

There are a couple of things you can't change, does not matter who you are.

1. As long as there is moisture in the meat, you can't make it go hotter than 212 F, Hot or low.

2. Once that temperature gets to 212F, the physics law of thermal conductivity takes over, You can never make heat travel faster than the conductivity of meat, or anything else. Conductivity of a material is a constant, can't be changed. You can't make it fast or slow.

So what is Hot and Fast? Low and slow?

dcarch


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## noboundaries (Jul 30, 2014)

Found this in Wikipedia.  Seems to fit this discussion.

*Cold smoking* can be used as a flavor enhancer for items such as chicken breasts, beef, pork chops, salmon, scallops, and steak. The item is hung first to develop a pellicle, then can be cold smoked for just long enough to give some flavor. Some cold smoked foods are baked, grilled, steamed, roasted, or sautéed before eating. Smokehouse temperatures for cold smoking are typically done between 20 to 30 °C (68 to 86 °F).[5] In this temperature range, foods take on a smoked flavor, but remain relatively moist. Cold smoking does not cook foods. Meats should be fully cured before cold smoking.[5]

*Hot smoking* exposes the foods to smoke and heat in a controlled environment. Like cold smoking, the item is hung first to develop a pellicle, then smoked. Although foods that have been hot smoked are often reheated or cooked, they are typically safe to eat without further cooking. Hams and ham hocks are fully cooked once they are properly smoked. Hot smoking occurs within the range of 52 to 80 °C (126 to 176 °F).[5] Within this temperature range, foods are fully cooked, moist, and flavorful. If the smoker is allowed to get hotter than 185 °F (85 °C), the foods will shrink excessively, buckle, or even split. Smoking at high temperatures also reduces yield, as both moisture and fat are "cooked" away.

*Smoke roasting or smoke baking *refers to any process that has the attributes of smoking combined with either roasting or baking. This smoking method is sometimes referred to as "barbecuing", "pit baking", or "pit roasting". It may be done in a smoke roaster, closed wood-fired masonry oven or barbecue pit, any smoker that can reach above 250 °F (121 °C), or in a conventional oven by placing a pan filled with hardwood chips on the floor of the oven so the chips smolder and produce a smokebath. However, this should only be done in a well-ventilated area to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning.

Seems like the majority of us here are "smoke roasting or smoke baking."


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## oldeboone (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm With you, Foam.Well said !!!  Ernie


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## jmgreen (Jul 30, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> Sounds to me like the thread itself was baiting an argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This. I've tried 225 and just could not get good results. My B-i-L from Texas moved here and tried to do his chicken and Brisket low and slow but again with poor results. I usually stay between 250 and 275 but have gone up to 300. We think it may just be this part of the country that requires the different temps. But I agree with the above. As long as you like it, good. The rest is just discussion.


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## mdboatbum (Jul 30, 2014)

JMGreen said:


>


Endless, mind numbing discussion.

I don't see why people are so passionate about defining things and that their method is the end all be all best. I say screw it! Life's too short to argue about the why's and if's, just do what works for you and enjoy the results. If you don't get the results you want, do it a different way.

If everyone smoked the exact same way, there would be no need for forums like this and it'd be pretty boring.


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## dcarch (Jul 30, 2014)

JMGreen said:


> Foamheart said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds to me like the thread itself was baiting an argument.
> ...


It's a good thing that we discuss topics such as this.

Why under "identical situations", same meat, same smoker, same temperature, same cooking time, will work perfectly for some, but not for there other. Because there is always some conditions that make the condition not identical.

Conditions such as what is the relative humidity, which controls how fast your meat dries out and lowers the surface temperature. How big is your piece of meat, how often you turn your meat, how high up is your meat from the heat source, etc. etc. 

dcarch


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## grillmonkey (Jul 30, 2014)

Well, I love these sorts of debates. It gets people involved who normally don't tell you the why of what they suggest you do. I find it hard to accept advice from someone who suggests something based on their assertion that that is the way we've always done it, or that's the way we do it around here.

If you really want to _get my goat_, just say something like, "Do it this way, that's how most of the people on here do it." I actually had someone tell a newbie this after I had suggested to the newbie (who had asked for ideas) something different that I had done that turned out great.

But, debate is good. Is there a right or wrong way? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm still interested in hearing everyone's side and their reasoning behind it.


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## fwismoker (Jul 30, 2014)




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## yama1 (Aug 22, 2014)

Wow, touchy subject!!! I have done it both ways and I think I prefer the hot and fast. I have cooked a lot of BBQ for a lot people. With no complaints.  I sell them so when I'm doing 40-50 slabs on a Saturday for the game I can't take forever. I know the argument and I understand. But they love it and they pay well for it!! It has a good smoke ring and flavor. I believe there is more than one way to produce good tasting BBQ!!!


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## stickyfingers (Aug 22, 2014)

5oclocksomewher said:


> I agree. I even go a little hotter on my brisket and ribs. Myron Mixon always preaches hot and fast is just as good as low and slow, and I'm a believer. Myron's certainly got the credentials to back up what he says.


I so agree! I was a low and slow guy until I went to his school this past Feb. Been hot and fast since....I'm sold. Easier, quicker same smoke flavor...may even be better.

Butts, brisket and chicken 325

Ribs 275


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## grillmonkey (Aug 23, 2014)

stickyFingers said:


> I so agree! I was a low and slow guy until I went to his school this past Feb. Been hot and fast since....I'm sold. Easier, quicker same smoke flavor...may even be better.
> 
> Butts, brisket and chicken 325
> 
> Ribs 275


If you get the same smoke flavor and you aren't burning the meat, why not hot and fast? I did my last butt at 280 with no problem. It was much faster and didn't stall for long before it took off again. It also eliminated the need to foil if you don't have time for a 12-18 hour smoke. The bark was cultishly good, too.


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## timstalltaletav (Aug 23, 2014)

Grillmonkey said:


> If you get the same smoke flavor and you aren't burning the meat, why not hot and fast?



I use the slow-n-low time as an excuse to not do anything else except enjoy beers.

Wife:  "Can you do [insert any home repair task here] today?

Me:  "Oh sorry honey...  I have to keep an eye on this smoker, I'd love to [insert mundane task here], but I have to keep an eye on this fire..."

If I'd lose that excuse I don't know would I do!


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## grillmonkey (Aug 23, 2014)

tjs231 said:


> I use the slow-n-low time as an excuse to not do anything else except enjoy beers.
> 
> Wife: "Can you do [insert any home repair task here] today?
> 
> ...


Good point.


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## oldschoolbbq (Aug 23, 2014)

I will still be a 'Low 'n Slow' type of guy , why , I'm a  Fat , Old , Lazy type and like to do it "Oldschool" 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I do my "Queing" for leisure and relaxation. It's not a job that I have to worry about , so ...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Have fun and . . .


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## ifitsdeadsmokeit (Aug 23, 2014)

I don't cook anything low and slow (by my definition below 225)...simple reason really, there is no way I could stand cooking a brisket or shoulder 20 hrs ±.  I would get bored to death and cranky and couldn't stay up all night and function the next day and the wife doesn't like it when I get cranky.  I usually smoke between 240 and 275 except for poultry which is in the 275 to 300 area unless it is in with something else.  My pork butts take around 8 hrs and brisket is about 10.  If I hit a bad stall I either crank the heat for a bit to get through it or put it in a pan and cover it.  Why, because this is what works for me and still produces great results and allows me to still enjoy the hobby and have a happy home life.  It also saves me a lot of $$ on wood not having to run the smoker for twice as long.  The argument is really pretty easy...if you enjoy the long smokes at low temps and like the results, then do it that way.  If  you like it shorter with higher temps and like the results, then do it that way.  They are both proven methods that work.

Multiple choice question:  What is a proper way to smoke food?

A:  Low and Slow

B:  Hot and Fast

C: Both A and B above

answer:  C.


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## bobbybirds (Aug 23, 2014)

tjs231 said:


> I use the slow-n-low time as an excuse to not do anything else except enjoy beers.
> 
> Wife:  "Can you do [insert any home repair task here] today?
> 
> ...



AMEN !!! Brother... This is truth!


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## mdboatbum (Aug 23, 2014)

I say do whatever it takes to get the results you want in the situation at hand. If you love tending a fire for hours on end and have the time, by all means go for it. It's a fun and relaxing way to spend a day. If, however, you have people expecting to be fed at a certain time, or you just don't have the luxury of a full day to spend making dinner, crank up the heat and take the appropriate measures to get that hunk of meat done in far less time. A little flexibility and planning and you can get consistent results no matter what method you use.


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## stickyfingers (Aug 23, 2014)

tjs231 said:


> I use the slow-n-low time as an excuse to not do anything else except enjoy beers.
> 
> Wife: "Can you do [insert any home repair task here] today?
> 
> ...


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

My thoughts on the subject.

I agree with

Foamheart Post #15_ Sounds to me like the thread itself was baiting an argument. _

And I was going to stay clear of this thread since to OP did a hit and Run, but the thread turned into a pretty decent discussion.

  _From SQWIB POST #9 _Folks always confuse Low and Slow with smoking, they are two entirely different things and therefore should not be used interchangeably.

@Hickory Butt post #14_ I'd be curious to see what the 'official' definitions of the words are. Is there a widely accepted agreement on what these words actually mean? _

It is subjective and to be honest I don't care if these are defined anywhere but for me and as far as temps go, Low and Slow and Smoking are two entirely different things, you can cook Low and Slow in a Crock pot, Sous Vide, Smoker, Oven or in the ground such as a Luau to name a few.

Smoking can be done at any temperature here's a few, cold smoking, hot smoking, fast and hot. Smoking can be used to cure foods, I do my Buckboard Bacon at 50° for 36 hours.

I consider Smoking to cure or infuse smoke flavor into food.

@FWIsmoker Post #13 _All HOGWASH lol._

_I'd love to know where smoking stops and cooking begins. Lol_

My opinion is Smoking and Cooking should not be used in place of each other but can be used together.

@ Diesel post #16 _Yes.. I was wrong with when using the word "cooking" _

No you were not wrong, when applying heat you are cooking period!

noun: *cooking*


_the practice or skill of preparing food by combining, mixing, and heating ingredients._
@FWIsmoker_ POST #17 These so called definitions are all subjective and will always be subjective. _

ABSOLUTELY!

@Timberjet Post#19 _Boy, I hate to step into the line of fire here but to me, smoking meat is all about adding smoked flavor to the meat,_ That is my opinion as well.

But this is where I say it's Low and Slow...two different beasts... _rendering fat into the meat and break down connective tissue while ending up with a quality finished product. _ That's not to say you cant smoke low and slow but smoking does not always mean low and slow and vice versa.

@Hickorybutt post # 21

_I should have had the foresight to just stay off of this topic based on how the original poster started the conversation to begin with _

That was my initial intention as well, but since folks are still going back and forth I felt I would add my 2 cents...as usual lol.

@Nouboundaries post #30 _Found this in Wikipedia. Seems to fit this discussion. _

I'd have to agree somewhat especially for the Pit Roasting for me anyhow. That is why I always try to refer to my cooking on the Pit as Pit Cooking at temps around 250° - 450° and when using my GOSM I feel I am HOT Smoking although my temps are usually 200-250° unless of course I am cold smoking.

@tjs231 post #40 _I use the slow-n-low time as an excuse to not do anything else except enjoy beers. _

True, I try to look at the time on my pit as MY TIME.

I go into every cook with the following in mind.

_You get up before the sun, head out to the pit, it is dark but the darkness is welcome, it makes you feel like you are in your own world.

You open up the firebox door and start a fire. It is very still and dry out, the fire burns upward.

It is silent, almost a deafening quiet, no birds, no airplanes or cars, no air conditioners, the only thing that is heard through the silence is the crackling of the fire, you glance at the temperature gauge on the wall and it reads 36°, you think to yourself , "that's cold", but the warmth from the pit is comforting and you are not cold.

The light from the fire cuts through the dark giving the area a warm soothing glow and the smell from the freshly ignited wood makes you close your eyes and inhale deeply, you loose yourself for a minute, at this point you know its going to be a great day.

You head upstairs and grab the pork, once at the pit, you unwrap the pork and get hit with another welcomed smell... it's of your rub, as you gaze at the slather that has developed from the rub mixing with the meat juices you are fighting the urge to swipe the gooey goodness with your finger and taste it like you would icing on a birthday cake, the whole time saying to yourself, "life is great".

The fire settles down, you look over your shoulder and notice the glow of the sun peeking through the trees.

You set up your pit and place your treasure into the pit, you close the pit and head upstairs to grab a coffee and back out to the pit.
You then place your favorite chair by your firebox and gaze at the thermometer and it is now 42°.

As you sip on your coffee you get a faint smell of your rub alongside a bit of smoke smell, now you get anxious... you spring up and take a peek... not much going on but you take a minute to admire your treasure.

A little while passes and you add some more wood to the fire, as the fire crackles you hear a sizzling sound, you spring up out of your chair and pop open the pit,...whoosh you get plastered in the face with the first signs that your pork is on it's way, you have now just opened Pandora's box, the anticipation weighs heavily on you like a crushing force that can only be lifted by time.

As you admire your treasure you notice the "pork gold" oozing from the surface, you know everything is as it should be and you have aligned with the universe.

too be continued._



_Nothing is more relaxing to me than being outside tending the pit on a nice fall morning, kicking back with a fresh cup of coffee taking in all the wonderful aromas from the pit._

_As much as it is relaxing, there is also something primeval about cooking meat over a fire, there is also the satisfaction of producing a product that required so much attention and will be enjoyed by many._

_When I'm cooking on the pit, it's not just cooking, it is more of an event. Now that I look back I remember my Mother In Law would make thanksgiving dinner, I saw her slaving in a kitchen all day, but to her she was enjoying her event, she was in her element and enjoying every minute of it, to me it looked like a lot of hard work.

When I'm cooking on the pit, folks look at me and say, "man you've been tending that pit all day, that seem like a lot of work", but I'm in my element, so I say, "its only work if you don't enjoy it"._ 

Here is a post from my website and this is sums up my feelings on the subject.

_I want to point out to the Smoking enthusiasts that, when *Pit Cooking*, my goal is *not to* incorporate smoke flavor, this is a welcomed by-product of cooking with hardwood and I subscribe to the belief , "less is more", when cooking on my pit. So I refer to this as "Pit Cooking", but most just call it "Smoking"._

If I want to *infuse a smoke* *flavor* I will usually use my GOSM, I usually use the GOSM for my appetizers as well..

The following is how I approach my cooking, this is not to say that this is everyone thought but rather my opinion.


*Smoking, *desired outcome, to infuse smoke flavor into food product.

*Grilling, *cooking over direct heat or higher heat to achieve a Maillard Reaction, searing, charring etc...

*Cold Smoking*, infuse smoke flavor into a food product without cooking.

*Low and Slow,* desired outcome, to slowly cook product to render fat and break down connective tissue.

*Barbecue,* to cook food indirectly with the use of hardwood coals (infusing smoke flavor is not the goal here but is a welcomed by product.
_4 and 5 play well together._

So in closing this has been an interesting thread and I enjoyed seeing everyones point of view.


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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)

P1020869.JPG



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__ fwismoker
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Any guesses on how long it took to cook these spare ribs?


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## dcarch (Aug 25, 2014)

Did a brisket last week.

131F, 72 hours in a super thin TBS PID smoker.

Moist, pink medium done fork tender beef. 

Will do this again for sure.

dcarch


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> P1020869.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Under two hours using high heat.


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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> Under two hours using high heat.


Now how could that be if they aren't burnt or charred, are juicy, had smoke ring,  used no foil and had a very sugary rub ?


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Now how could that be if they aren't burnt or charred, are juicy, had smoke ring,  used no foil and had a very sugary rub ?


70 [email protected] 450+° 






[h2]Rib Rub: [/h2]
3 tablespoons light brown sugar 
1 teaspoon cayenne powder
2 tablespoons garlic powder 
2 tablespoons onion powder 
1 tablespoons white pepper 
2 tablespoons kosher salt 
1 tablespoon dry mustard, such as Coleman's  
1 tablespoon course black pepper 
5 teaspoons seafood seasoning, such as Old Bay 
1 teaspoon ginger powder
*Mop *(The mop is thin, so for three racks 1 cup total should be enough).

1/2 cup soy sauce 
1/2 cup Worcestershire sauce 
[h2]  [/h2][h2]BBQ Sauce: [/h2]
3 cups ketchup 
1 cup brown sugar 
1 cup rice wine vinegar _OK to substitute with Cider Vinegar_
1/2 cup stone ground mustard _OK to substitute with yellow mustard_
1/3 cup Worcestershire sauce 
1 teaspoon cayenne powder
1 tablespoon sea salt


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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)

Squib 85 minutes with Simply Marvelous (super sugary) and cooked the last 15 minutes with a sugary homemade apple cider vinegar bbq glaze.  They were probe tender at 1 hour or so but i had to sauce and cook that on a little. 

It's pretty much inconceivable for people to think you can get smoke ring, tasty juicy non burnt ribs in that time frame.  Ribs that are award winning good.    Ribs just aren't L&S anymore!


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## stickyfingers (Aug 25, 2014)

Here's a question along the same line that I have asked myself repeatedly;

It is often said that after 4 hours meat can no longer absorb any additional smoke (personally, not so sure I believe it).  That being true, why would you continue smoking your meat all those long hours?


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Squib 85 minutes with Simply Marvelous (super sugary) and cooked the last 15 minutes with a sugary homemade apple cider vinegar bbq glaze.  They were probe tender at 1 hour or so but i had to sauce and cook that on a little.
> 
> It's pretty much inconceivable for people to think you can get smoke ring, tasty juicy non burnt ribs in that time frame.  Ribs that are award winning good.    Ribs just aren't L&S anymore!


LOL I figured under 2 by the looks of the pic...less rendering I lovem like that.

Most folks here wont believe us but my Fast and Hot have been my favorite to date, plus I can have tasty ribs from fridge to plate in under two hours!!!

Has more of a steak texture, what was your cook temp?


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

stickyFingers said:


> Here's a question along the same line that I have asked myself repeatedly;
> 
> It is often said that after 4 hours meat can no longer absorb any additional smoke (personally, not so sure I believe it).  That being true, why would you continue smoking your meat all those long hours?


The smoke ring stops.

Smoke flavor will apply as long as you add smoke but in my opinion the quality of smoke flavor at a certain point deteriorates rapidly.


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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)

stickyFingers said:


> Here's a question along the same line that I have asked myself repeatedly;
> 
> It is often said that after 4 hours meat can no longer absorb any additional smoke (personally, not so sure I believe it).  That being true, why would you continue smoking your meat all those long hours?


There's two things to take into account.:

One smoke ring technically can form to appx 170* is what scientist now say.  I wouldn't confuse smoke ring with smoke absorption though.  

Secondly with regard to extended smoking times there is a reason why people will foil their meat after so many hours... Reason is so it doesn't get any more dark/burnt on the outside.    Smoke is supposed to be a seasoning also it isn't really smoke that adds flavor but rather just the combustion gasses.   I'd rather have a cook where i can't really see any smoke vs when i can. 

Exposed meat in a smoker will continue to get darker and darker in there even when the smoke is thin.   Give me a fraction of the time with the "invisible smoke" than with a low smoldering fire for 10-20 hours.     Too often people show off meteorite black meat and say "GREAT BARK"        Some cookers will produce a little black such as doing a brisket 15 hours on a stick burner but that's not what i'm talking about.  I'm talking about black scorched ribs and thick meteorite black pork butt.    The mahogany color should be the goal and you don't get that with extended smokes unless you are covering it part of the cook but if it's covered for hours then why smoke it for those extra hours.


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

stickyFingers said:


> Here's a question along the same line that I have asked myself repeatedly;
> 
> It is often said that after 4 hours meat can no longer absorb any additional smoke (personally, not so sure I believe it).  That being true, *why would you continue smoking your meat all those long hours?*


This is why I always say, "Folks always confuse Low and Slow with smoking, they are two entirely different things and therefore should not be used interchangeably. I am not saying you specifically but many use the two interchangeably.

If you are applying smoke you can stop using wood after you achieve your desired results, it may be one hour or 4 hours...your choice but if using a stickburner you just keep using wood till its done. I have on occasion switched to propane to finish a cook.


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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)




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## fwismoker (Aug 25, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> LOL I figured under 2 by the looks of the pic...less rendering I lovem like that.
> 
> Most folks here wont believe us but my Fast and Hot have been my favorite to date, plus I can have tasty ribs from fridge to plate in under two hours!!!
> 
> Has more of a steak texture, what was your cook temp?


Actually it renders about as much as slow ribs i think.... All i know is they are tender and juicy.     An hour and half including prep time for meat and smoker for imho award winning ribs ...you just can't beat that with a stick! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





     Temps are hard to explain (I will later) but they average maybe 450-500* but times it's well over 600*


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## grillmonkey (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Squib 85 minutes with Simply Marvelous (super sugary) and cooked the last 15 minutes with a sugary homemade apple cider vinegar bbq glaze.  They were probe tender at 1 hour or so but i had to sauce and cook that on a little.
> 
> It's pretty much inconceivable for people to think you can get smoke ring, tasty juicy non burnt ribs in that time frame.  Ribs that are award winning good.    Ribs just aren't L&S anymore!


This is shaking up the low and slow establishment down to its core.


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## sqwib (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Actually it renders about as much as slow ribs i think.... All i know is they are tender and juicy.     An hour and half including prep time for meat and smoker for imho award winning ribs ...you just can't beat that with a stick!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have slightly less rendering with the Hot and Fast

Low and slow













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__ sqwib
__ Aug 25, 2014






Fast and Hot













20120721180.JPG



__ sqwib
__ Aug 25, 2014


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## stickyfingers (Aug 25, 2014)

Interesting posts to say the least!!


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## sqwib (Aug 26, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Actually it renders about as much as slow ribs i think.... All i know is they are tender and juicy.     An hour and half including prep time for meat and smoker for imho award winning ribs ...you just can't beat that with a stick!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, 600° I maxed out my Fast and Hot at 500° but stay at 450° for 70 minutes

first 50 minutes with rub/mop and last twenty minutes glazing

You can probably cut your cooking time another 10 minutes with them temps.


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## fwismoker (Aug 26, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> Wow, 600° I maxed out my Fast and Hot at 500° but stay at 450° for 70 minutes
> 
> first 50 minutes with rub/mop and last twenty minutes glazing
> 
> You can probably cut your cooking time another 10 minutes with them temps.


Oh the temps had to exceed 600* at times without question but I'm not worried about finishing times just the best possible quality ribs.  It used to be that the longer something slow smoked the better it had to be and i used to follow that philosophy...now it's just about putting out the best possible product regardless of time.


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Oh the temps had to exceed 600* at times without question but I'm not worried about finishing times just the best possible quality ribs.  It used to be that the longer something slow smoked the better it had to be and i used to follow that philosophy...now it's just about putting out the best possible product regardless of time.


I totally agree I love my ribs Hot and Fast, I also love the 5-6 hours of *ME TIME* I get when doing them low and slow.

Although I agree on the quality over time, I am gonna play with my 70 minute ribs and see if I can get them to 60 minutes without loss of quality, I think I am pushing it if I run my pit at 500°+

My last high heat cook I left the wood under the pit and lets just say it wasn't pretty.

High heat on an offset requires a lot of attention and forethought, grease fires, radiant heat, clearance, kids and dogs to name a few.

Here are a few pics, tell me whats going on in these pictures.













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I think that someone that has done ribs high heat can answer this.


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

Again, keeping in mind that once 212F is reached, no amount of heat can get it any higher, you can go to 1000F air temperature and it will make no difference.

Go boil a pot of water and measure the temperature. Once the water starts to boil, it make no difference how high or low the fire is, it will always be 212F.

dcarch


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> Again, keeping in mind that once 212F is reached, no amount of heat can get it any higher, you can go to 1000F air temperature and it will make no difference.
> 
> Go boil a pot of water and measure the temperature. Once the water starts to boil, it make no difference how high or low the fire is, it will always be 212F.
> 
> dcarch


I know... you said that before but can you please use it in context, what does this apply to, fast and hot ribs vs. Low and Slow? I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Can you be a little more specific on this?


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> I know... you said that before but can you please use it in context, what does this apply to, fast and hot ribs vs. Low and Slow? I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
> 
> Can you be a little more specific on this?


In the context on this topic:

Once the 212F has been reached, the specific thermal conductivity constant of the meat (and fat, and bones) takes over. The speed of heat travel will always be the same to get the IT up. In other words, the high or low will have no impact on slow or fast relative to IT.

However, the high or low will have a big difference on the meat's surface. The heat will determine how fast the moisture will be burned away and how fast and how much caramelization will take place, and how much meat will turn to carbon.

The other aspect:

Just because the thermometer reads over 212F, it does not mean the meat's surface temperature is at 212F. This has to do with the very low specific heat of air, and the high latent heat contain of water. Evaporation can carry away a lot more heat than air can supply. That said, there is another factor enters into the consideration. If the interior of you smoker/grill is designed in such a way that the interior surfaces of the  smoker/grill gets very hot very fast, like in a well insulated ones, than a lot of cooking of the meat can be by done by infrared. In this case, the temperature measured by the termometer can be 0F, and the meat can still be cooked or burned.

dcarch


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

I can share an example on chicken from last night.  My 5 lb bird was injected heavily with creole butter and i cooked it about 500-600*.   The total cooking time was 90 minutes because it was just boiling inside, this thing must have been boiling from about 10 minutes after putting it on. lol.   If i would have spatchcocked that same bird  and cooked at 350 with no injection it would have probably have took the same amount of time.

Ribs are a different animal because you're dealing with connective tissue breaking down for the moisture...there are different rates of evaporative cooling in something like ribs vs chicken.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> I totally agree I love my ribs Hot and Fast, I also love the 5-6 hours of *ME TIME* I get when doing them low and slow.
> 
> Although I agree on the quality over time, I am gonna play with my 70 minute ribs and see if I can get them to 60 minutes without loss of quality, I think I am pushing it if I run my pit at 500°+
> 
> ...


Mine is a totally different style of cooking then yours.  I see no smoke or very little smoke because its cooking directly over fire. There aren't flare ups of any kind from grease  with my high heat cooks.


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> In the context on this topic:
> 
> Once the 212F has been reached, the specific thermal conductivity constant of the meat (and fat, and bones) takes over. The speed of heat travel will always be the same to get the IT up. In other words, the high or low will have no impact on slow or fast relative to IT.
> 
> ...


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Mine is a totally different style of cooking then yours.  I see no smoke or very little smoke because its cooking directly over fire. There aren't flare ups of any kind from grease  with my high heat cooks.


There is NO smoke in those two pics Nada, Zip!


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> There is NO smoke in those two pics Nada, Zip!


Grease smoke?  Steam?   LOL, a combination of grease, steam, burning flesh, burning sticks?        I have no idea, my cooker i use has no lid. lol       All i know is that sucker get's hot for an RF offset!

Since the pic with the lid closed isn't smoking much and the pic with the lid open has something i'll guess it's moisture flashing.


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## grillmonkey (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB,

If you understood all that, please explain it to me in English. The grammar of all that made the science hard to understand.


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> Grease smoke?  Steam?   LOL, a combination of grease, steam, burning flesh, burning sticks?        I have no idea, my cooker i use has no lid. lol       All i know is that sucker get's hot for an RF offset!


It's Steam if you look close at the first pic in post #66 you can see it looks heavy and is dropping in areas, this cook had no smoke the entire run.













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20120721087.JPG



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Yeah the thing was popping and hissing all over the place.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

The science makes my head hurt. lol    All i know for sure is the results i get at different temps for different meats cooked on different styles of cookers= experience.   You can't go wrong with experience if you're dense like me and can't wrap your head around all of the science!   
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





       I know enough of the science to be dangerous and that's ok with me.


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

"----_Regardless of if this is true or not, I don't think it applies to the conversation about the ribs being done in 70 minutes as opposed to 6 hours, The simple fact is you can cook Ribs in a little over an hour or 6 hours with great results_  _regardless of the science, so the statement is a moot point in this case, nonetheless interesting though!----"_

_Sorry if I have gone off topic._

I thought the thread is about "Low and slow...the myth." and BTW, I have not said one is better than the other.

dcarch


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> "----_Regardless of if this is true or not, *I don't think it applies to the conversation about the ribs being done in 70 minutes as opposed to 6 hours*, The simple fact is you can cook Ribs in a little over an hour or 6 hours with great results_  _regardless of the science, so the statement is a moot point in this case, nonetheless interesting though!----"_
> 
> _Sorry if I have gone off topic._
> 
> ...


No need to be sorry and hopefully you did not get your feathers ruffled, this has been an interesting topic, I however am sorry if I wasn't clear, I was simply stating that I felt your post did not apply to the specific conversation about the ribs and I also was not saying one is better than the other.

I also felt I was getting off topic as well but everything posted so far has been on topic as far as I can tell.

My whole point to my posts have been there is more than one way to skin a cat and I am sure a lot of folks are screaming Blaspheme!

But since you brought it up please elaborate on the statement. 

_Again, keeping in mind that once 212F is reached, no amount of heat can get it any higher, you can go to 1000F air temperature and it will make no difference._

_Go boil a pot of water and measure the temperature. Once the water starts to boil, it make no difference how high or low the fire is, it will always be 212F._

I am sure this is confusing folks it sure is confusing me and needs more explanation, I understand the concept but do not know how to apply it to our general discussion, and don't see any relevance, sorry never went to college.lol

How does this apply to, lets say 2 pork butts the same weight, mass, size etc... lets call them identical twins.

Twin#1 is cooked at 325°

Twin#2 is cooked at 225°

From your above statement you are saying that the internal temp will never get above 212 (I am assuming as long as moisture is present) ok we got that but how does it apply to the twins, my understanding is that the IT will get up to temp much quicker on twin#1 than twin#2 so what is the relevance?

I want to emphasize that I am not being facetious just curious


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

IMO much of this science is a moot point when it comes to BBQ.  We think we know what's going on in the meat but do we really?   When we get into conversations such as the crutch, collagen and connective tissue break down, going nekkid with hotter surface temps it gets muddy and there is lots of speculation.


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.

Twin#1 is cooked at 325°

Twin#2 is cooked at 225°

Let's also assume the appliance (smoker/grill) are also identical. Twin#1 preheated to 325° and Twin#2 to 225°. Also ignoring the fact that there will be more air convection at 325°.

I am at work and doing this by memory. So the numbers may not be correct.

Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. 

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. 

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts.

dcarch


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## cliffcarter (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.
> 
> Twin#1 is cooked at 325°
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but I whole heartedly disagree. I have cooked hot and fast and low and slow and the difference is patently obvious, hot and fast is cooked much more quickly, cutting cooking time by as much as 50%. And the meat is always cooked , otherwise it would not get served to my friends and family.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch what's your definition of H&F?       I cook pork butts @ 300 and they finish in 45 minutes per lb  on average and that sure seems faster to the middle than an hour and half per pound.  













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__ fwismoker
__ Feb 4, 2014


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.
> 
> Twin#1 is cooked at 325°
> 
> ...


Now my head hurts but I like it!!!


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

FWI here's a post from my website with cook times based on my pit. I am curious as well as to what others are getting.

*Temperature*:

Your cooking temperature is one of the biggest variables when cooking, see the chart below for an example, these numbers are based on cooking the meat on a pit to an internal temperature of 200°-205° using wood and no foil.
Many die hard Low and Slow folks say 225° is the best temp for cooking butts/picnics, after many cooks I have found my happy ground at 275°. I have not noticed a change in flavor profile, texture nor moistness one way or another, however you will need to find your favorite cooking temp. Just a word of caution, if you do decide on the lower temps at least keep it up to 250° the first 2 or three hours to help you get through the danger zone safely.

9 pounds @ 225° = 90 - 120 minutes per/lb [13.5 - 18 hours]
9 pounds @ 250° = 80 -   90 minutes per/lb [ 12 - 13.5 hours]
9 pounds @ 275° = 60 -   80 minutes per/lb [   9 - 12 hours]

9 pounds @ 275° = 50 -   60 minutes per/lb [   7.5 - 9 hours] *FOILED*

You can see the gap in time is dramatically decreased at higher heats, the lower heat time gap is huge.

The foiling also helps get through the evaporative process quicker.

My last few cooks were at around 52 minutes a pound at 275° foiled


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

LOL SQUIB closest I can tell is our H&F cooks couldn't possibly get done much faster and if they do they'll be dry on the outside.   Am i close or am I missing something.


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

cliffcarter said:


> I am sorry, but I whole heartedly disagree. I have cooked hot and fast and low and slow and the difference is patently obvious, hot and fast is cooked much more quickly, cutting cooking time by as much as 50%. And the meat is always cooked , otherwise it would not get served to my friends and family.


And that is why it is very interesting to consider the whole science of cooking, the chemistry and the physics of cooking. It really requires rigorous and exact definition of the environment and conditions. Otherwise theories will be seemingly in conflict with realities.

It is entirely possible what you are saying is true, depends on many other variables which will effect the end result and observation.

At the end, we are going to agree that under sea level atmospheric pressure, (ignoring the strange phenomenon of super cooling and super heating of water) water cannot ever get hotter than 212F and you cannot make ice hotter than 32F. It really does not matter who you are and what you do. You will win the Nobel Price in science if you have found a way with your smoker to change that.

Like wise, property of heat transfer of material, i.e. coefficient of thermal conductivity, if you look it up, is a constant. Heat goes from high to low, the law of entropy, is not changeable (except a little in metals, which heat transfer is somewhat electrically based). Heat will travel from high to low at a specific rate, based on the single number you can look up from a table.

That too will get you to be very famous, if your grilling technique can change that.

We are not talking about difference of opinions or preference here. I think.

dcarch


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## grillmonkey (Aug 27, 2014)

Dcarch,

The hotter you cook something, the faster it will get done. That is a fact. I don't know what you're trying to say
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





.


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. *OK I understand this part but doesn't the higher heat meat get up to 212 quicker and evaporate the moisture quicker?*

*  *

*Yes. See comment below.*

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. *Makes sense to me.*

However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. _*This I am having trouble with, its like saying broiling a steak at 600° will cook to the center as quick as a steak that is baked at 225° I have steaks that cook through to center much quicker at high heat on my sear station.*_

_*  *_

_*Actually that is not what I said. It is the speed of travel the same not the degree of heat.*_

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F *heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.*

*?**?? I am definitely having trouble with this. lol.*

*  *

*Let me try again. :-) When the temperature of both #1 and #2 get to be 212F, that same 212F will both travel at the same speed to the center.*

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster *I can see how it would dry out the exterior quicker on something like a butt or large piece of meat*. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. *so will a higher heat piece of meat if cooked properly.*  It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts. _*I agree that you can control texture by various cooking methods ie: foiling vs. non foiling.*_

*Correct. One method is not better than the other, depends on what you are trying to achieve. But being able to work with the limitations of the unchangeable laws of physics is that little edge that wins you the crown in a  competition.*

*  *

_dcarch_

_  _


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

Dcarch

I


dcarch said:


> And that is why it is very interesting to consider the whole science of cooking, the chemistry and the physics of cooking. It really requires rigorous and exact definition of the environment and conditions. Otherwise theories will be seemingly in conflict with realities.
> 
> It is entirely possible what you are saying is true, depends on many other variables which will effect the end result and observation.
> 
> ...


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)




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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)




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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

Awesome, Ok I feel better now because I understand it, at first I thought you were trying to convince us that the cook times would be the same regardless of the heat but the fact that higher heat gets to the 212 threshold quicker = a quicker cook.


FWIsmoker said:


> How about we drop this so called science/ tables and charts because it obviously doesn't work in the real world of BBQ.  Fair enough?


Yes we can move on I just wanted to understand this and hopefully others can make sense of this as well. I just don't like calling BS on people but rather want to understand.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm still more confused than ever.   I cook pork 10 plus # butts @ 280-300 degrees in 7 1/2 and they're cooked perfectly inside and out without foiling.   I cook BB ribs and spare ribs @ 400-to well over 600 degrees and they're done in less than 90 minutes perfect inside and out.     How this equates to this 212* stuff is beyond me...nor do i care.   The only thing that matters is real world experience and results, I'll save the science charts for TP.


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## lemans (Aug 27, 2014)

Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO


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## lemans (Aug 27, 2014)

I smoked 2 butts this weekend.. One had to be finished on my propane grilll ( why is for another thread).. It was 170 and I took it off the smoker and put it on the cool side of my grill at about 300 degrees.. It reached 205 in about 40 mins, so i wrapped it and put it in the cooler with the other one for two hours... Both were delish but the one done entirely on the smoke had a better taste than

the on on th the grill.. as subtle as it was my wife even said it tasted "Flat". So hot and fast will get you there, but it may not be where you want to be.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

Lemans said:


> Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO


If over 400 is grilling then they shouldn't call this a smoke ring.   The definitions of all this stuff is subjective. I'm getting just as much smoke ring and taste on my high heat rib cooks that's all i know.   It's amazing the flavor that a high heat fire can impart in meat and i'm not talking a charcoal grill fire but rather a stick burning fire. 













P1020872.JPG



__ fwismoker
__ Aug 27, 2014


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

Lemans said:


> Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO


Round and round we go.
So if I am infusing smoke at a higher heat its not smoking? What if I'm infusing smoke at 50° is that smoking.
As mentioned before some things are subjective but applying smoke at any temperature is smoking... I think most will agree to that. Smoking is in my opinion infusing smoke into a product and is not dictated by temperature.
I get a hint of smoke on my fast and hot ribs. Furthermore I want to eat and taste meat not smoke...ahint of smoke is more than enough... its there as a flavoring like an ingredient. Too much smoke flavoring takes away from the meat.
And to be quite honest you only need an hour of smoke for ribs and a few hours of smoke for butts and picnics to get a wonderful hint of smoke. I think there's too much emphasis on the smoking end of the cook and most think more is better. In my book less is more
But that's just me


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## lemans (Aug 27, 2014)

Fat cap up or down? It's all good as long as the finish product is awesome. Never ment to 
Start a fight.. I'm a smoker not a fighter.. Lol


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## caribou89 (Aug 27, 2014)

bottom  line for me is this. if meat is cooking in a chamber that allows smoke to penetrate the meat wether over direct heat(UDS) or off set, im smoking meat, regardless of temperature. if im cooking meat over fire, but not in a closed chamber, im grilling. doesnt mean you wont get smoke flavor from the wood burning, but i just dont call it smoking. I personally feel that there is absolutely nothing to be gained from doing everything low and slow. i do pork butts at 275, briskets at 300, chicken at 325, and ribs at 275. If you have never tried cooking a little faster, i dont think you should knock it. i used to do everything low, then i tried the hotter method a couple of times, and after a couple of tweaks, realized i got even better results. If you have tried it, and didnt care for it, by all means, use whatever method gives you the product you like, but i can tell you from experience that every type of meat commonly discussed on these boards can be smoked just as effectivly at 300 as 225. it may not have worked for you the first time, but it may just require a tweak to your method. nobody is wrong in how they cook if it creates the product they want, but i have an issue with guys bashing other people, saying they arent smoking meat or whatever just becuase its different than how you do it.some people are just too close minded to give a different opinion any validity. "old school" isnt necessarily right. neither is "new school"


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## sqwib (Aug 27, 2014)

Lemans said:


> Fat cap up or down? It's all good as long as the finish product is awesome. Never ment to
> Start a fight.. I'm a smoker not a fighter.. Lol


No fighting here and I agree the finished product is what counts.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> Round and round we go.
> So if I am infusing smoke at a higher heat its not smoking? What if I'm infusing smoke at 50° is that smoking.
> As mentioned before some things are subjective but applying smoke at any temperature is smoking... I think most will agree to that. Smoking is in my opinion infusing smoke into a product and is not dictated by temperature.
> I get a hint of smoke on my fast and hot ribs. Furthermore I want to eat and taste meat not smoke...ahint of smoke is more than enough... its there as a flavoring like an ingredient. Too much smoke flavoring takes away from the meat.*Yep it's just a seasoning.  Well said SQUIB*
> ...


It almost surprises me that most BBQ'ers don't know that it's the combustion gasses that give most of the flavor....even straight propane does believe it or not but wood being the most complex.

I remember when i didn't see smoke I thought that I wasn't smoking.  Little did i know that the "invisible" stuff is actually the best.


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## pc farmer (Aug 27, 2014)

SQWIB said:


> Round and round we go.
> So if I am infusing smoke at a higher heat its not smoking? What if I'm infusing smoke at 50° is that smoking.
> As mentioned before some things are subjective but applying smoke at any temperature is smoking... I think most will agree to that. Smoking is in my opinion infusing smoke into a product and is not dictated by temperature.
> I get a hint of smoke on my fast and hot ribs. Furthermore I want to eat and taste meat not smoke...ahint of smoke is more than enough... its there as a flavoring like an ingredient. Too much smoke flavoring takes away from the meat.
> ...


I have been staying out of this, but this post deserves


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

It is a matter of preference, we all can agree to that. And furthermore, let's also agree that liquid smoke is not smoking. LOL!

I always go with extreme low and slow. Ribs, at 150F 48 hours.

Notice there is no shrinkage of meat.

Pulled pork at 145F 60 hours. Also no meat shrinkage, and you can see the texture of the meat is very pink and different. Very tender, but not mushy. 

I always go with extreme thin smoke from my cold smoke generator.

dcarch













smokedribs.jpg



__ dcarch
__ Aug 27, 2014


















Smokedribsa.jpg



__ dcarch
__ Aug 27, 2014






Pulled pork













smokedpulledpork2-1.jpg



__ dcarch
__ Aug 27, 2014


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

dcarch said:


> It is a matter of preference, we all can agree to that. And furthermore, let's also agree that liquid smoke is not smoking. LOL!
> 
> I always go with extreme low and slow. Ribs, at 150F 48 hours.
> 
> ...


We're on exactly the same page dcarch!   I don't think liquid smoke is smoke, For most smokers i do ribs 4-8 hours and my PP has been close to the 6.0 hour range.  See we're not so different.


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## caribou89 (Aug 27, 2014)

How do you do a pork but 60 hours at 145 without getting sick? It's gotta take that butt a really long time to get above the danger zone.


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

caribou89 said:


> How do you do a pork but 60 hours at 145 without getting sick? It's gotta take that butt a really long time to get above the danger zone.


I was hoping someone was going to bring that up, food safety is serious business.   There is a rule of getting non cured meat to 140* in four hours.   Sous Vide is one thing but it doesn't sound like that's what it was.


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## pc farmer (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> I was hoping someone was going to bring that up, food safety is serious business.   There is a rule of getting non cured meat to 140* in four hours.   Sous Vide is one thing but it doesn't sound like that's what it was.


I was thinking the same thing.


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## kc5tpy (Aug 27, 2014)

Hello.  First off may I say those are some GREAT picts of smoked meat!  Oh well guess I'll stick my foot in here.  Probably shouldn't .

I should keep my mouth shut but I have always been a dumba**.  Here we go!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   My opinion, though no one asked:  I have done a brisket or two in my 40+ years of smoking.  I have always done brisket in the 300-350 range.  I don't wrap.  I like to cook and eat my brisket on the same day.  Haven't had a dry one in 30 years.  I won't argue the cooking, grilling, smoking thing;  it is cooking meat adding smoke.  As an old man who learned Tx. style brisket as a kid from the old Tx. men who didn't have digital therms: Dogs bark.  Bark belongs on Carolina style pulled pork.  MAYBE bark belongs on PORK ribs.  Bark doesn't belong on Tx. style brisket.  Burnt ends; while tasting good, were developed so that the burned parts of the brisket could be sold and not thrown out.  I of course am speaking of traditionally smoked brisket.  For that matter I think the "smoke ring" is over rated.  I have found with brisket that you can cook 1 this week and 1 next week in EXACTLY the same manner and have 2 different results with the smoke ring.  I never even look at the smoke ring.  I have eaten brisket in a restaurant with a beautiful smoke ring; dry as he**.  Not to say all brisket with a nice smoke ring is dry.

Some meat DOES require low and slow.  All game comes to mind.  If you try that hotter you will be disappointed.  Well there you go.  Fire away folks.  I can take it.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Danny


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## daveomak (Aug 27, 2014)

caribou89 said:


> How do you do a pork but 60 hours at 145 without getting sick? It's gotta take that butt a really long time to get above the danger zone.




This does not pertain to sous vide cooking.......  

Whole muscle meat products....   are considered "sterile" on the inside....  Salt the outside, or subject to a high temp. to kill surface bacteria...  then low and slow cooking is allowed....  PROVIDED the meat has not been poked, prodded, injected or a thermometer has not been inserted, until the outer 1/2" or so has come up to 140 ish degrees...  15 minutes at 450-500 deg will do, or a couple hours at 225 should do... and the thermometer has been sterilized.... 

That is a generalized, condensed statement .....


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## fwismoker (Aug 27, 2014)

^^^^^^   Not sure if L&S means 2-3 days in the cooker not far above ambient temps.  I sure as heck wouldn't even "sterilize" the outside and let my meat sit out for that long. lol


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## daveomak (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIsmoker said:


> ^^^^^^   Not sure if L&S means 2-3 days in the cooker not far above ambient temps.  I sure as heck wouldn't even "sterilize" the outside and let my meat sit out for that long. lol



What are you referring to......    Dave


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## dcarch (Aug 27, 2014)

Very good questions.

According to Douglas Balwin, at 145F, 3 1/2 hour will be enough to pasteurize a thick piece of meat (pork).

In my case, to begin with, I do a lot of sous vide also. I have gotten into very good sanitary practices. For instance, all meat goes into boiling water for a few seconds before any cooking. My smoker is a convection smoker, which will significantly shorten the 3 1/2 hour recommendation.

dcarch


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## grillmonkey (Aug 28, 2014)

KC5TPY said:


> Hello.  First off may I say those are some GREAT picts of smoked meat!  Oh well guess I'll stick my foot in here.  Probably shouldn't .
> 
> I should keep my mouth shut but I have always been a dumba**.  Here we go!
> 
> ...


Forty years of smoking earns you the right to post your opinion anywhere on this forum.


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## oldschoolbbq (Sep 1, 2014)

My buddy , Danny is from my part of the World , and I think close to my home... We have spoken on here many times and are in agreement on how to do a Brisket . My rub is S/CBP , the original rub , do your use a mix , or maybe buy at the stor?Matters not how you cook , there's zillions of ways to Smoke and each to his own , I've seen yours and Danny's and they are both good.

I have a challenge for you...cook a Brisket to doneness for you and try to remove the Point with just your hand 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  , yes I can and do often with no loss of moisture ;













FOOD I HAVE COOKED - ANYTHING 014.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ Apr 7, 2013





 here's one , it has Bark and the fat is colored good(rendered).













FOOD I HAVE COOKED - ANYTHING 016.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ Apr 7, 2013





 When I lifted it off the grate , the Point 'fell off'













FOOD I HAVE COOKED - ANYTHING 015.JPG



__ oldschoolbbq
__ Apr 7, 2013





Now can you see Bark , and the juice is there. Even re-heated ( a Brisket is a big meal for 1 day) ,when some of your liqueor is left , it stays moist.

Just sayin', have fun and . . .


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