# Temperature Probe Insertion Question -- Timing



## thrifty token (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok, after trolling the Forum for awhile, I'm am now confused about when to insert the temp probe into a pork shoulder or brisket.  Seems there are 2 recommendations: 1) Insert at beginning of smoke, or 2) Insert around 4 hours later.  I believe this is due to food safety concerns.  I believe these concerns are cured when the internal temp reaches 140 degrees w/i 4 hours?

Question:  Does it really matter when the probe is inserted?

Thanks for your feedback.  Have a great Labor Day! ~~ Thrifty


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## mneeley490 (Aug 30, 2012)

If you insert the probe at the beginning, you may be pushing surface bacteria deep into the meat where the temp may not reach 140° within 4 hours to kill it.

I believe the concensus was that it was ok to insert after 1 hour, the reason being that the surface temp would be over 140° by then and any stray bacteria would already be dead. Or, alternately, at the begining, using a propane torch to cauterize a small spot where you intend to insert the probe.


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## scarbelly (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't insert the probe for the first 2 hours - just a safety thing with me - still gives me 2 hours if things are going slower than I want


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## bmudd14474 (Aug 30, 2012)

I usually wait to check the temp until 4-5 hours on a 8-10 lb butt.


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## thrifty token (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback.  Next Boston butt I smoke, I'll wait before inserting the probe.  I love this Forum!


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## chef jimmyj (Aug 30, 2012)

mneeley490 said:


> If you insert the probe at the beginning, you may be pushing surface bacteria deep into the meat where the temp may not reach 140° within 4 hours to kill it.
> 
> I believe the concensus was that it was ok to insert after 1 hour, the reason being that the surface temp would be over 140° by then and any stray bacteria would already be dead. Or, alternately, at the begining, using a propane torch to cauterize a small spot where you intend to insert the probe.


 This is where I am on the subject. I usually have the Torch out for my AMNPS anyway...JJ


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## dragonmaster194 (Aug 30, 2012)

Good idea about the torch, Thanks for the tip.  Steve


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## tomzo (Jun 17, 2013)

I am a bit confused on this topic.   It is my understanding that if you cook anything and keep it over 160 or so for over 10 minutes ALL bacteria will be inactivated in the process.   If you are gooking a pork butt that will be cooked until the IT gets to 205 or 210 it will spend hours over 160.   At that point what difference would it make that a few bacteria made their way into the center of the meat on the probe - they will all be inactivated just like the ones on the surface.

Tom


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## 1905 (Jul 6, 2013)

Interesting point, are there any comments? I like to hear what other say.


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## s2k9k (Jul 6, 2013)

I think mneeley and JJ said it all!

Just because you heat it above 160* for 10 mins isn't going to kill everything!

If the surface is compromised in any way and it stays in the danger zone (40*-140*) for more than 4 hours you are running a risk no matter how hot you get it.

Would you leave a piece of meat out in the sun for a week then heat it above 160* and think it would be safe?


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## 1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

You are missing the point. The meat is cooking far beyond 160, and for several hours. So it justifies a discussion to flush out thoughts. If I'm off base then say so, otherwise proof read your posts before you go off halfcocked.


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## webowabo (Jul 7, 2013)

mneeley490 said:


> If you insert the probe at the beginning, you may be pushing surface bacteria deep into the meat where the temp may not reach 140° within 4 hours to kill it.
> I believe the concensus was that it was ok to insert after 1 hour, the reason being that the surface temp would be over 140° by then and any stray bacteria would already be dead. Or, alternately, at the begining, using a propane torch to cauterize a small spot where you intend to insert the probe.


Great idea..  would have never thought of that until now! 
Thanks
Mike


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 7, 2013)

Tomzo said:


> I am a bit confused on this topic.   It is my understanding that if you cook anything and keep it over 160 or so for over 10 minutes ALL bacteria will be inactivated in the process.   If you are gooking a pork butt that will be cooked until the IT gets to 205 or 210 it will spend hours over 160.   At that point what difference would it make that a few bacteria made their way into the center of the meat on the probe - they will all be inactivated just like the ones on the surface.
> 
> Tom





1905 said:


> Interesting point, are there any comments? I like to hear what other say.





1905 said:


> You are missing the point. The meat is cooking far beyond 160, and for several hours. So it justifies a discussion to flush out thoughts. If I'm off base then say so, otherwise proof read your posts before you go off halfcocked.


This is easily answered and no one missed the point...There are thousands of types of Bacteria most or all ARE killed at 160*F in a matter of seconds or more....BUT...The most dangerous to humans have two tricks! They can make Toxins that maim or kill in very tiny amounts. There are also many that form Spores or a protective shell that allows them survive chemicals and heat well in excess of 210*F. Spore formation is triggered buy Low and Slow cooking like making Pulled Pork, a Brisket and smoking an Enhanced Turkey over 14Lbs. We need extra caution with smoking temps under 225*F and should make use of a Nitrite Cure, especially Jerky Production and Sausage Making! Clostridium Botulinum is just 1 such tricky SOB that is found in Dirt, on any Herb and Vegetable or food source fit for Man or Animal that is grown in dirt. It is common on skin and EXTREMELY abundant in Animal Feces including yours! In other words if the animal is slaughtered for human consumption and any part of the Digestive Tract is pierced or cut the Meat is very likely Contaminated with stomach contents and feces which is Natures Incubator dumping BILLIONS of this CB Bacteria onto the meat. The Bug (harmless except to Babies under 1, Old people and the Immune deficient) is killed at 165*F but the Toxin, the part that KILLS remains until the meat gets above 212*F (Pulled Pork gets Mushy above 205*F) and lastly the Spores are not heat sensitive at all so they are just waiting for you to mishandle the leftovers! Here is a brief list of the most common and some handling info to avoid contamination and cross-contamination. It is educational material and not copyrighted for personal use. I hope this clears up the, " If I cook it, I will be Fine..." misconceptions. The fact is YES most of the time, " Grandma Defrosted the Turkey on the Counter for 75 years and nobody got sick or died..." you will get away with defrosting on the counter, injecting or boning out the meat or even probing the meat but every once in a while every time the meat surface gets too warm (above 40*F) and/or is broken...Bacteria gets pushed in and cooking to 160*+F will still not make it safe...JJ ( Fully Cocked and Locked Certified Food Safety Instructor 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





)

The first step in preventing food poisoning is to assume that all foods may cause food-borne illness. Follow these steps to prevent food poisoning:

Wash hands, food preparation surfaces and utensils thoroughly before and after handling raw foods to prevent recontamination of cooked foods.
Keep refrigerated foods below 40 degrees F.
Serve hot foods immediately or keep them heated above 140 degrees F.
Divide large volumes of food into small portions for rapid cooling in the refrigerator. Hot, bulky foods in the refrigerator can raise the temperature of foods already cooled.
Remember the danger zone is between 40 degrees F and 140 degrees F.
Follow approved home-canning procedures. These can be obtained from the Extension Service or from USDA bulletins.
Heat canned foods thoroughly before tasting.
When in doubt, throw it out
Infants, older persons, women who are pregnant and anyone with a compromised immune system are especially susceptible to food-borne illness. These people should never consume raw fish, raw seafood, or raw meat type products.

You are the key to preventing food-borne illness. By observing the simple rules of good handling, food poisoning can be eliminated.

Bacteria ResponsibleDescriptionHabitatTypes of FoodsSymptomsCauseTemperture SensitivityStaphylococcus aureusProduces a heat-stable toxinNose and throat of 30 to 50 percent of healthy population; also skin and superficial wounds.Meat and seafood salads, sandwich spreads and high salt foods.Nausea, vomiting and diarrhea within 4 to 6 hours. No fever.Poor personal hygiene and subsequent temperature abuse.No growth below 40° F. Bacteria are destroyed by normal cooking but toxin is heat-stable.SalmonellaProduces an intestinal infectionIntestinal tracts of animals and manHigh protein foods – meat, poultry, fish and eggs.Diarrhea nausea, chills, vomiting and fever within 12 to 24 hours.Contamination of ready-to-eat foods, insufficient cooking and recontamination of cooked foods.No growth below 40° F. Bacteria are destroyed by normal cooking.Clostridium perfringensProduces a spore and prefers low oxygen atmosphere. Live cells must be ingested.Dust, soil and gastrointestinal tracts of animals and man.Meat and poultry dishes, sauces and gravies.Cramps and diarrhea within 12 to 24 hours. No vomiting or fever.Improper temperature control of hot foods, and recontamination.No growth below 40 degrees F. Bacteria are killed by normal cooking but a heat-stable spore can survive.Clostridium botulinumProduces a spore and requires a low oxygen atmosphere. Produces a heat-sensitive toxin.Soils, plants, marine sediments and fish.Home-canned foods.Blurred vision, respiratory distress and possible DEATH.Improper methods of home-processing foods.Type E and Type B can grow at 38° F. Bacteria destroyed by cooking and the toxin is destroyed by boiling for 5 to 10 minutes. Heat-resistant spore can survive.Vibrio parahaemolyticusRequires salt for growth.Fish and shellfishRaw and cooked seafood.Diarrhea, cramps, vomiting, headache and fever within 12 to 24 hours.Recontamination of cooked foods or eating raw seafood.No growth below 40° F. Bacteria killed by normal cooking.Bacillus cereusProduces a spore and grows in normal oxygen atmosphere.Soil, dust and spices.Starchy food.Mild case of diarrhea and some nausea within 12 to 24 hours.Improper holding and storage temperatures after cooking.No growth below 40° F. Bacteria killed by normal cooking, but heat-resistant spore can survive.Listeria monocytogenesSurvives adverse conditions for long time periods.Soil, vegetation and water. Can survive for long periods in soil and plant materials.Milk, soft cheeses, vegetables fertilized with manure.Mimics meningitis. Immuno-compromised individuals most susceptible.Contaminated raw products.Grows at refrigeration (38-40° F) temperatures. May survive minimum pasturization tempertures (161° F for 15 seconds.)Campylobacter jejuniOxygen sensitive, does not grow below 86° F.Animal reservoirs and foods of animal origin.Meat, poulty, milk, and mushrooms.Diarrhea, abdomianl cramps and nausea.Improper pasteuriztion or cooking. Cross-contamination.Sensitive to drying or freezing. Survives in milk and water at 39° F for several weeks.Versinia enterocoliticaNot frequent cause of human infection.Poultry, beef, swine. Isolated only in human pathogen.Milk, tofu, and pork.Diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting. Mimics appendicitis.Improper cooking. Cross-contamination.Grows at refrigeration temperatures (35-40° F) Sensitive to heat (122° F)Enteropathogenic E. coliCan produce toxins that are heat stable and others that are heat-sensitive.Feces of infected humans.Meat and cheeses.Diarrhea, abdominal cramps, no fever.Inadequate cooking. Recontamination of cooked product.Organisms can be controlled by heating. Can grow at refrigeration temperatures.
Bacterial Reference TableThe information given herein is for educational purposes only. Reference to commercial products or trade names is made with the understanding that no discrimination is intended and no endorsement by the Texas AgriLife Extension Service is implied.

Educational programs of the Texas AgriLife Extension Service are open to all people without regard to race, color, sex, disability, religion, age, or national origin.

Publication Revised November 2008


Food Technology Home
Food Processing Entrepreneurs
Bacterial Food Poisoning
Producing, Preparing & Processing Vegetables for Health
Food Safety Issues and Electron Beam Technology
Good Agricultural Practices
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## 1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

Sometimes, stubbing ones toe inspires others to reach for them and offer their support. Thank you.


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## dcarch (Jul 7, 2013)

The other important consideration:

Metal conducts heat significantly better than meat. the metal body of the probe also acts as a heat conducting pin. The more metal in the probe the more it conducts heat. The longer it stays in the meat the more heat it delivers to the meat.

What you are measuring with a heavy probe in a long cook will be very distorted. The meat away from the probe may be at a much lower temperature.

dcarch


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## jarjarchef (Jul 7, 2013)

dcarch said:


> The other important consideration:
> 
> Metal conducts heat significantly better than meat. the metal body of the probe also acts as a heat conducting pin. The more metal in the probe the more it conducts heat. The longer it stays in the meat the more heat it delivers to the meat.
> 
> ...


That is why the probe is only a guide. You need a secondary way of telling the temp in other areas, being either moving the probe or using a second thermometer. Budget usually determines what people do there.

But with that being said in over 20 years cooking professionally and using probes to monitor during cooks countless times. I have never seen where it has made that much of a difference with having a 3"-6" x 1/8" piece of metal in the meat. Not saying it does not make a slight difference, but it is not noticeable. Any of the heat that may transfer from the probe to the meat is lost very quickly. They are designed to not transfer the heat. They are hollow and if they did allow heat to transfer they would not be anywhere accurate and pointless to make, sell and use. If you look at the probe you will see a little mark close to the tip. From that point to the tip is all the reads the temp. Now if the probe was to be a heating element inserted into the meat, that is a whole other subject.


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## gary morris (Jul 7, 2013)

I use probe wipes and or sanitiser, these kill / reduce the amount of potential pathogens, on a probe.  

At a temperature of 75°c - 172°f  any bacteria present will have been destroyed or reduced to a safe level.  Any bacteria on the outside of the food item, will be subject to the same conditions as any bacteria on the inside.  

How many of us sanitise the needle that we use to inject liquids into the meat before cooking?  Just wondering.

Gary


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 7, 2013)

Wiping the Needle is just one more step to ensure safety. But as I tried to point out the Bacteria we most worry about is on the surface of the meat. So even a brand new, freshly out of the package, Certified Sterile needle will still push surface bacteria into the meat. This is no big deal MOST of the time as you pointed out bacteria is dead at temps above 170*F...BUT...It remains, thing still go wrong and it is not the Bacteria that is always harmful but the Toxins they produce Before the heat kills them...JJ


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## tomzo (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks JimmyJ - that is the most clear explanation that I have seen so far.   I will certainly follow the recommendation of waiting a few hours to insert the thermometer.  

I remain curious however as to the mechanism that removes the risk of contamination.   If I am making pulled pork at a smoker temp of 225 or so, are we counting on the surface temp of the meat going above 212 in the first two hours, thus inactivating even the spore or oocyst forms of various pathogens?   Are all such bad actors inactivated above 212?  The list above hints at the temps but does not give them.  The method of torching a patch seems to support this concept but variations in how this is done could cause issues.

I work in the water treatment industry and we learned a valuable lesson about cryptosporidium in the 1990s when the oocyst's resistance to chlorine inactivation killed a lot of people.   I think most of us think of meat bacteria as being easy to deal with as we are told about 160 degrees being the standard for safety, so my guess is that I have been lucky over time in that I have violated the guidelines you have identified many times, but will not going forward.

Thanks

Tom


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## gary morris (Jul 8, 2013)

Here in the UK it's 75° or 172°f  and would be taken in the thickest / most dense part of the food.  (there are exceptions)   I would hazard a guess and say there wouldn't be many people who have not broken the guidelines at some point, I know I have!

Do you guys also torch the patch before you inject fluids into the meat before cooking??


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## redwood carlos (Jul 8, 2013)

Gary Morris said:


> Here in the UK it's 75° or 172°f  and would be taken in the thickest / most dense part of the food.  (there are exceptions)   I would hazard a guess and say there wouldn't be many people who have not broken the guidelines at some point, I know I have!
> 
> Do you guys also torch the patch before you inject fluids into the meat before cooking??


It does not matter if you go from 40-140 in under 4 hours. If you do not go from 40-140 in under 4 hours you run  the risk, no matter how small, of foodborne illness. You decide if that is what you want to do.

When you get in your car you run the risk of injury through accident.

When you eat you run the rick of chocking.

etc...


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## tomzo (Jul 8, 2013)

That is the other point that I was going to make.   There is a cottage industry predicated on sticking needles into raw meat to inject prior to cooking.   You see it on all the BBQ shows and it appears to be common practice.   It would seem to me that this would be causing all sorts of problems but you just don't hear about it - or at least I have not heard of it.

Tom


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## dcarch (Jul 8, 2013)

jarjarchef said:


> "------------------- I have never seen where it has made that much of a difference with having a 3"-6" x 1/8" piece of metal in the meat. Not saying it does not make a slight difference, but it is not noticeable. Any of the heat that may transfer from the probe to the meat is lost very quickly. ------"


I would not disagree with you totally, but then you see people do this a lot:
[h1]http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/143921/spatchcocked-island-chicken[/h1][h1]“Spatchcocked Island Chicken”[/h1]
It would seem to me that in this case, the probe is reading very distorted temperature readings. The metal conductivity will make a big different in this case.

dcarch
[h1][/h1]


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 8, 2013)

I in no way want to make anybody so scared that they go Vegan...This is way more about having an understanding of food borne illness and knowing that to get sick a series of things have to go wrong. Example...You can take a Pork Butt, roll it in the Cats Litter Box, drop it on the bathroom floor a couple times, Spit all over it then Inject and Probe it, followed up with an uneventful smoke at 225*F to an IT of 205*F...And Absolutely Nothing Will Happen To You...Well maybe a Funky aftertaste in your mouth...BUT...You take the same roast, contaminated at the slaughter house, warm it to room temp because you read that saves fuel in the smoker, inject and probe it and put some Rub on. One hour into the smoke you fall asleep and the fire dies. Your wife wakes you up 3 hours later, you light the fire and smoke at 300*F to catch up, smoking to an IT of 200*F, 'cause you know bacteria dies at 160*F...Everybody eats and 1-6 hours later the entire family don't feel so good. That is the difference...

It is doing what you can to be safe...Wash the meat before Injecting...Using a Salty Rub (bacteria hates salt) or Acidic Mustard on the surface before Probing...Hit a spot with a Torch just because it's in your hand...

No need to be Worried or Paranoid just have Understanding....JJ


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## jarjarchef (Jul 8, 2013)

dcarch said:


> I would not disagree with you totally, but then you see people do this a lot:
> 
> [h1][SIZE=12pt]http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/143921/spatchcocked-island-chicken[/SIZE][/h1]
> 
> ...





I am a bit confused. Your first statement was about the probe transferring heat to the meat and causing that area to cook faster and in turn cause a false reading of hotter than actually what the rest is. Then you link a thread that has the probe in the thigh of chicken (I'll give you it will not read properly due to what looks to be just under the skin) and you are referring to it getting a false reading, but not refering to the probe transferring heat and cooking area faster.


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## dcarch (Jul 8, 2013)

May be I am not being clear.

As I said, the much higher thermal conductivity of metal in some cases will need to be considered in the use of a probe thermometer.

In the thread I linked, the probe, which appears to be about 1/2" to about 3/4" into the meat, the metal shaft of the probe will be carrying a lot of heat into where the tip is supposed to be measuring. In the picture, the reading may show the thigh is cooked when the drumstick may still be un-done. This is what I meant by "false". The conclusion drawn (that proper temperature has been reached) is incorrect because  the instrumentation is incorrect.

I see this all the time.

dcarch


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## tomzo (Jul 8, 2013)

JimmyJ -  what would you consider the correct way to wash something like a pork shoulder?   We wash things like watermelons before cutting them for the same reasons as the exterior of melons are frequently contaminated.   We use warm water and dish soap.

Thanks

Tom


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 9, 2013)

Tomzo said:


> JimmyJ -  what would you consider the correct way to wash something like a pork shoulder?   We wash things like watermelons before cutting them for the same reasons as the exterior of melons are frequently contaminated.   We use warm water and dish soap.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tom


Tom, I just give them a Rinse in cold running water then pat dry with Paper Towel...Being Extremely Careful not to splash and contaminate anything surrounding the sink! Oh Yeah, and sanitize the sink and area, for good measure, with hot soapy water before anything else goes in or gets done. This also cleans your hands well before moving on to Rubs and further handling. 

We ain't doing Open Heart Surgery, just trying to reduce risk of getting sick or having to toss $$$ worth of meat just in case something goes wrong during the cook...JJ


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 9, 2013)

dcarch said:


> May be I am not being clear.
> 
> As I said, the much higher thermal conductivity of metal in some cases will need to be considered in the use of a probe thermometer.
> 
> ...


Since you guys are HIJACKING THIS THREAD!...And I am a major contributor to answering the OP's question, I will add my observation...

What is the point of building a Thermal Probe that conducts Heat? Are the sensors not Heat Isolated from the rest of the probe and the probe non-conductive? If not then ALL metal Probes would conduct heat to the meat, especially that in contact with the senor AND the sensor itself!  There would not be a single accurate thermometer with a Metal Probe...Not to mention in this senario, Corporate customer demand and therm manufacturer profit savings would have switched to sturdy non-conductive Plastic Probes with just Metal Tips, years ago. I can see, maybe, a cheap probe thermometer conducting heat and being off a few degrees but the metal is very thin and there is just not enough Thermal Mass to make a significant difference. Additionally, I highly doubt general statements about conduction are valid. During my Electronics Controls and Measurement days, I was not always a Chef, all the Industrial and Medical equipment I worked on and with, had Metal Therm Probes and had better be thermally isolated and highly accurate or there would be huge Costs to our clients from manufacturing inferior Product, Malfunctioning Control Systems and worthless Test Equipment.

In the Chicken example the probe would have very little effect on the meats temp, if it did conduct, nor would it read accurately.This is not because, " the instumentation is incorrect ", it is because the probe placement was incorrect. Not only was it not in far enough to generate significant change to the meats temp, it most likely read the Smoker Temp within a few minutes as many inexpensive probes place a Bi-Metal sensor 1/2" to 1" from the tip and the sensor would not be in contact with the meat anyhow.

Please make your Closing Statements and move on starting a New Thread on the subject if you wish to continue, in a civil manner of course...JJ


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## dcarch (Jul 9, 2013)

Sorry I thought I was totally on topic. Apologies to OP.

As per your instructions, I started a new thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...obe-insertion-timing-and-other-considerations

Thanks.

dcarch


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## bruno994 (Jul 9, 2013)

Tomzo said:


> That is the other point that I was going to make.   There is a cottage industry predicated on sticking needles into raw meat to inject prior to cooking.   You see it on all the BBQ shows and it appears to be common practice.   It would seem to me that this would be causing all sorts of problems but you just don't hear about it - or at least I have not heard of it.
> 
> Tom


It does not cause problems because the food is cooked properly.  Injecting is fine, I do it all the time, but the food needs to be cooked and handled properly to insure no one gets sick. 

As far as the OP's question, there is really no need to probe a butt or brisket until the 4 hour mark.  Smoke at a decent temp, 225 and above and you should be just fine.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm a little late to this party, but if the OP or anyone else is interested, I don't inject any of my large hunks of meat, and I don't insert my temp probe until 3 hours in, at which time I sterilize the probe with alcohol wipes before inserting. Since I do it this way, I don't have to worry about the Danger Zone.

If I were to inject or insert my temp probe at the beginning of the smoke, I would have to get the IT of the meat from 40* to 140* in no longer than 4 hours to be sure of being safe.

My 2 cents,

Bear


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## chuckles (Nov 11, 2013)

This is the most comprehensive explanation of this controversial subject that I have read. My wife had a stem cell transplant and her neutrophils (part of the white blood count) are hanging just barely above the very low end of normal. That fact, along with the info presented in you post, has made my decision for me. I'm not sticking that meat until the smoker temp has been up to 160 for a while. In fact, I'm no longer going to inject. Seems like that would be worse than the thermometer probe. Why take the risk. Thanks for sharing this info.


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## venture (Nov 12, 2013)

Interesting point, Chuckles.

Foodborne illness outbreaks frequently occur with infants, seniors, and those with impaired immune systems.

Pooled eggs in institutional settings such as nursing homes would be a prime example. One bad egg can spoil the whole batch if handled incorrectly.

As Chef JJ said, a multitude of things going wrong when just one bad thing may not seem so critical.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## GaryHibbert (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey Venture

I'm not sure, but maybe I'm just going to go out and shoot myself.

Please tell me about this one bad egg LOL thing.  Both of my inlaws are in a nursing home--and I've never heard of this before  Jees, like its not bad enough already, yada yada yada , what's this???????

Gary


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## GaryHibbert (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey Tom

I totally agree, but then, I'm just a dumb truck dri

ver so, in all honesty...............what???????????????

Gary


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## GaryHibbert (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey Tom

I just read the rest of your post.  I gotta tell you you just used a whole bunch of words  that I can't even prounounce, let alone figure out.  Please use smaller words in the future (I;m just a truck driver), just to make it easier for us blue collar types.  I have no doubt that what your're saying is really interesting , just YOU LOST me.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!            LOL Big time

gary


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## vmastros (Nov 12, 2013)

I asked the question at foodsafety.gov, part of the CDC. Here is the response

vince: I participate in a forum on smoking meats bbq style. The question has come up about the safety of inserting a temperature probe into to meat when you if put it on the gril versus waiting for the outside temperature of the meat to warm up.  The concern is that inserting the probe into the meat when it is cold will push bacteria from the surface of the meat into the interior of the meat causing a food safety issue.  What you advise?







 Ask Karen: Hi Vince. give me a minute to read your question correctly.






 Ask Karen: Well, the bacteria would be killed once the internal temperature of the meat reaches a safe temperature, depending on the type of meat. 






 Ask Karen: Does that make sense to you or am I missing something about the smoking process you are talking about.






 vince: With bbq, we often cook to over 200 degrees internal temperature. At what temp would the bacteria be killed?






 Ask Karen: Oh, okay. Bacteria in beef, veal, lamb and pork is killed at 145 (with a 3 minute rest time) bacteria in poultry is killed at 165. 200 would definitely kill the bacteria. You are cooking the meat for a long time right. Low and slow, but the meat gets to a high temp.






 Ask Karen: Do you use a water pan (steam) in this process?






 vince: Sometimes we do.






 vince: Yes, low and slow as well






 Ask Karen: Okay, just checking. the steam is a factor in destroying bacteria too. But the final end temp should be at least 145 for red meat, 165 for poultry. If the temp of any meat you BBQ or smoke gets to  i200, that's is definitely safe and any bacteria would be destroyed.

This is from our government, how can it be wrong?


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## venture (Nov 12, 2013)

Totally from the government.

Totally missed the question you were asking.

Gave you answers out of the three-ring binder sitting on her desk.

Sheeesh!    
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Good luck and good smoking.


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## andybigwood (Mar 3, 2014)

Venture said:


> Totally from the government.
> 
> Totally missed the question you were asking.
> 
> ...


UK government is no better 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Clear and objective advice from Chef JJ - thanks


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## smokin monkey (Mar 4, 2014)

Interesting reading. If you boiled water (100'C) Then put the probe in the water, you could check the accuracy of the probe reading, then insert it straight into the meat, would this help to avoid the problem of pushing bacteria into the meat, as the probe is sterilised?

Smokin Monkey


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## Bearcarver (Mar 4, 2014)

Smokin Monkey said:


> Interesting reading. If you boiled water (100'C) Then put the probe in the water, you could check the accuracy of the probe reading, then insert it straight into the meat, would this help to avoid the problem of pushing bacteria into the meat, as the probe is sterilised?
> 
> Smokin Monkey


This would only help if there was no nasties already on the outside of the meat.

The way to do it is Smoke the meat for a few hours, then sterilize your probe (I use alcohol wipes), and put it in. Now there are no nasties on the probe, and no nasties on the outside of the meat waiting to be pushed in.

Bear


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