# HAM from fresh picnics..  update 10/21 ... MONEY ..



## daveomak (Oct 15, 2015)

My neighborhood small grocery had fresh picnics, non enhanced, for $1.49...   sooooo, 2 came home with me...  Bride wanted these done with the hide on so that's what I did....

Many, many injections of a curing brine to make them hammy...    around the bones and joints and along the hide from the meat side... and everywhere else... 

I injected about 500 cc into each ham for a ~10% pump....  I used a plain brine of pickling salt, white sugar, Amesphos and cure #1...  The last enhanced picnic I did was sooo good I thought fresh picnics would be a good test...  They will hit the smoker in about 7 days....  AND they will be in  my newly ordered stockinettes...  ain't that something...

*(I have since started using soup stock for the liquid to additionally enhance the flavor of the bird..  Turkey, Chicken or Vegetable Stocks are good starts..)(no salt vegetable stock is my favorite, awesome flavor)*

For those of you wanting to try this injection method in place of brining in a bucket, here's what I did....

In the order recommended by a reputable source, to the water carrier for the ingredients..  picnics weighed ~ 10#'s.... 4500 ish grams....

Weights are per 500 cc /grams injection liquid (10% injection) no salt vegetable stock
Amesphos............   18 grams ~0.4%  (0.3-0.5% recommended)
Sugar, white .......    45 grams ~1%
Salt, pickling ......     90 grams ~2%
Cure #1..............  .  11 grams ~153 Ppm nitrite ( edit .. OR 2 tsp for 10#'s)

A question arose, on my previous thread, about the exclusion of using "total" weight for the calculations....

My explanation ....    Since I'm adding the individual ingredients to the meat product, and since the water will "mostly if not totally" evaporate, I don't calculate the water weight into the formula...   I also didn't subtract the weight of the hide from the weight of the ham...  If a slab of bacon is ~10% hide, a ham must be around 3% hide... insignificant...   And then there is the leakage into the zip bag...

All things considered, this method is more accurate than the method employed by the "HAM" manufacturers....    They mix up hundreds of gallons of cure/spice mix and randomly inject meats of different weights and thickness...

If absorption is off by 20%, the values are still well within recommended values... 

I feel this method is more consistent, faster, less expensive and a lot more convenient than brining in a bucket...  YMMV.....

The syringe in the picture is from a jar of Cajun Injector marinade..

...click on pics to enlarge...












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## foamheart (Oct 15, 2015)

Very well done sir......  My first ham was a picnic and I gotta say its still my favorite. And I like the Amphos too.

I'm a waiting


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 15, 2015)

Looking good Dave. 

Did you order rolls of netting or just ham socks? Where from?


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2015)

Nicely detailed, Will make a great Tutorial when done. Can the same proportions be used on a fresh Ham?...JJ


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## oldschoolbbq (Oct 16, 2015)

Nice , Dave . I also curious about  the 'socks' and a  dumb question , what is 'Amphos'?


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## tropics (Oct 16, 2015)

I will be following this nice post Dave

Richie


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> Looking good Dave.
> 
> Did you order rolls of netting or just ham socks? Where from?





Amazon....  They look like they will fit nicely...  not too big....    I'll know more in a week.....


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Nicely detailed, Will make a great Tutorial when done. Can the same proportions be used on a fresh Ham?...JJ




I think this is a fresh ham....  hadn't been frozen or pumped...   just vac packed....    Salt and sugar can be adjusted to taste....   I will adjust, if necessary, on the taste test....   might even use brown sugar next time, or add honey or maple syrup....     First go 'round I like plain for a base line...

I chose 500 cc's of water to carry the "stuff" into the meat because store bought seems to revolve around 10% by weight...    about 20-30 cc's leaked out in the tray during pumping...  which I did add back to the zip bag for the 7 ish days wait...   500 cc's seemed to be about right for the size ham...   You could see the ham swell...  the skin swell when "perimeter" pumping...  looked like "all" will be fine in the end result...

The last picnic I did. about a month ago, was an enhanced picnic and it was delicious..    I wanted to test out a fresh ham...   I hate paying $1.89 for pumped liquid...


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

oldschoolbbq said:


> Nice , Dave . I also curious about  the 'socks' and a  dumb question , what is 'Amphos'?



I use it in beef sticks because nepas uses it...  now I'm adding it to other stuff...  The last picnic ham sure was moist and tender...  the best we've ever had.....

http://store.theingredientstore.com/amesphos.aspx


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

tropics said:


> I will be following this nice post Dave
> 
> Richie





O KEE DO KEE.....   Stand by....Thumbs Up


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

Foamheart said:


> Very well done sir......  My first ham was a picnic and I gotta say its still my favorite. And I like the Amphos too.
> 
> I'm a waiting




I think the picnics have better flavor and are more tender than back legs...   Amesphos is cool stuff...  I really like what it does for meats...  gotta try some of the other suggestions they have on the site.....


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2015)

I am use to the old way of referring to an uncured rear leg as a fresh Ham. I never had a cured Picnic on the bone but would venture a guess that they would be great...JJ


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## disco (Oct 16, 2015)

I'm watching, Dave.

Disco


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## bmaddox (Oct 16, 2015)

I have done ham from picnics in a brine and it does tack up a ton of room in the fridge. I am very interested to see how this comes out.


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## daveomak (Oct 16, 2015)

bmaddox said:


> I have done ham from picnics in a brine and it does tack up a ton of room in the fridge. I am very interested to see how this comes out.




The link below is the first one I did....   It was a picnic that was "enhanced"....


http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/233988/picnic-shoulder-into-a-ham-9-13-update-money


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## daveomak (Oct 17, 2015)

UPDATE....   The meat is turning pinkish...    Appears about 10-15% of the injected liquid has leaked out of the meat.... That tells me the injected stuff has migrated throughout the meat...  considering "MOST" of the liquid was injected around the bone, the picnic "should" be thoroughly cured...   10/15 - 10/17 2 days...  1/4" per day= 1/2"...  injections ~ 1" apart....   could be done BUT..  since my last picnic was in the refer for 7 days and came out sooooo good, I'm waiting the 7 days...  
I'm really leaning toward longer times for curing, lightly smoking and longer rest periods after the smoke...   I think "time" does more enhancing to the flavor and texture than credit is given....

I am turning the hams daily so the liquid that has leaked out, and the liquid remaining inside, can migrate throughout the meat...  or so it says in fine print.....   somewhere.....


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## JckDanls 07 (Oct 17, 2015)

I'm in....


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2015)

OK....  I know it's only 5 days but I couldn't wait...   I also wanted to check out if 5 days was enough and do the taste comparison...   even if the first picnic I did was enhanced...   
I've got Pitmasters Choice drying in the MES 30 now...  I will put the legs in the smoker, while it's 275 and let it cool with the legs in it...  that should warm the meat up to around 50-60 degs...  perfect for absorbing smoke for the next 6-8 hours or so...   2 full rows in the AMNPS.......   The smoke portion will be done at ~100-110 def. F....  Then the temp will be raised to 180-190 ish until the IT gets to 165.....














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The 28" bags fit nice...    I think they are about maxed out with a 10# leg.....  They should fit a 12# turkey....













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## radioguy (Oct 20, 2015)

Dave I'm in.  Always got time for good HAM!! [emoji]128055[/emoji]


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2015)

RadioGuy said:


> Dave I'm in.  Always got time for good HAM!! [emoji]128055[/emoji]




Sure hope these come out good....   Should know tomorrow...


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2015)

The bags make is nice to hang the meat......














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## bmaddox (Oct 20, 2015)

Dave your MES looks like it is well seasoned! I like the bags. I opted not to use them last time out of convenience but I am going to order some for the next ham smoke.


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm hoping the smoke penetrates as well as without the bags...  I can't see where it would be much different...  time will tell...


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## foamheart (Oct 20, 2015)

Dave, I just had a brain fart, what was the old commercial, " yadda yadda yadda  its in the bag!" Probably if I could remember the yadda's I would know the commercial. Trash bags? Turkey cooking bag?


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## mneeley490 (Oct 20, 2015)




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## daveomak (Oct 21, 2015)

Morning....   Well, the picnic hams are hanging in the smoker now to cool...  that should "trap" the moisture or whatever it does, when you let meat rest after cooking....     turned the smoker up to 275 for the last few hours this AM, with the exhaust closed, to get the meat temp up to 165....  turned the heat off at 162 and the ham IT got up to 168 deg, F....   smoker now is at 106 and the ham is still at 168....   Think I will wait for the IT to get around 120 ish before removing and finish cooling on a rack in the kitchen...    Note: should have only raised the smoker temp to 190 ish...  Don't know what I was thinking at 5 AM...   that temp 275 is too high....

Looks kind of good to me.....














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## daveomak (Oct 21, 2015)

WINNER !!!!  WINNER !!!     except for the netting sticking to the meat....   Fortunately we got to strip the netting and have ham snacks this morning....    Juicy/moist meat...  salt is good...   
I recommend stripping the netting while the meat is hot to see if it comes off any better than the luck we had...  
I just put a new florescent fixture in the kitchen..  has a weird color to it....  the meat's a beautiful cured pink color....    Bones and hide for beans...      Another keeper recipe.... 

After we cut it up I will decide on if I should skin the leg before doing this again, like I did on the previous ham....   with Brides permission, of course....














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## tropics (Oct 21, 2015)

Dave that is impressive Thanks for all the details.Thanks for sharing

Richie


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## mneeley490 (Oct 21, 2015)

Very nice, Dave. Oh man, now I am hungry again.


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## disco (Oct 21, 2015)

Great thread, Dave!

Point

Disco


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## 4pogo7 (Oct 21, 2015)

Great looking hams Dave!


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## bad santa (Oct 21, 2015)

Nice job Dave !

I have recently been doing the same thing myself, turning picnics into hams. I removed the skin on the first 2 that I did, so that I could render down and keep the fat. After smoking, I cooled them over night in the fridge with the netting still on and had no problems removing the netting.  Might be the rendering fat and softer skin is attaching to the netting more securely after cooling down or maybe try using something similar to peel eeze on the netting would help ? I don't know.

I do have 4 more shoulders curing right now I'm going to smoke up for Thanksgiving gifts.

Thanks for sharing your great pictures with all of us and I heartily agree these hams are MONEY !

Here's a pic of the skinned hams next day after the netting was removed after cooling over night.













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## daveomak (Oct 21, 2015)

Bad Santa said:


> Nice job Dave !
> 
> I have recently been doing the same thing myself, turning picnics into hams. I removed the skin on the first 2 that I did, so that I could render down and keep the fat. After smoking, I cooled them over night in the fridge with the netting still on and had no problems removing the netting.  Might be the rendering fat and softer skin is attaching to the netting more securely after cooling down or maybe try using something similar to peel eeze on the netting would help ? I don't know.
> I do have 4 more shoulders curing right now I'm going to smoke up for Thanksgiving gifts.
> ...




Did you use peel-eze or something like it....


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## foamheart (Oct 21, 2015)

Looks great Dave.

I like the skin on, why? Because when I reheat it to serve, I score it and add some jelly. Spicy peach? Apple? Kumquat? etc etc...The skin becomes exceptionally tender and all that warmed skin and (dare I say it?) fat! Ambrosia. The salt of the ham off-set by the sweet of the glaze.

I am getting excited just thinking about it!

Great job Dave!


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## bad santa (Oct 21, 2015)

No, I've never used any anything on the stockings. I wasn't sure if the stockings would come off the hams easily or not, with or without the skin on. I was more or less shooting in the dark on these. I had thought to myself, should I or shouldn't I use some kind of a anti stick solution like peel eez  for jerky racks etc. on the linen stockings, but I just went ahead and rolled the dice.


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## seguragreenwave (Oct 21, 2015)

Nice work! Those look awesome!


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## bdskelly (Oct 22, 2015)

Oh my...


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## daveomak (Oct 23, 2015)

SEGURAGREENWAVE said:


> Nice work! Those look awesome!






BDSkelly said:


> Oh my...
> :points:





Thanks men.....  appreciate it...


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## msuiceman (Oct 23, 2015)

abso-freaking lutely! looks awesome! well done Dave!


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## driedstick (Oct 23, 2015)

Dang it Dave you Nailed it looks great!!!! Now for some sammies and Navy Bean soup with some of those left over pieces in it 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Very Nice!!!! 

A full smoker is a happy smoker 

DS


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## radioguy (Oct 23, 2015)

Dave,

Looks great!!  Guess I have to add fresh picnics to the growing list.

Awesome post!!!

RG


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 23, 2015)

Dave, your hams turned out great!


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## daveomak (Oct 23, 2015)

MSUICEMAN said:


> abso-freaking lutely! looks awesome! well done Dave!






driedstick said:


> Dang it Dave you Nailed it looks great!!!! Now for some sammies and Navy Bean soup with some of those left over pieces in it :drool:
> 
> Very Nice!!!!
> 
> ...






RadioGuy said:


> Dave,
> 
> Looks great!!  Guess I have to add fresh picnics to the growing list.
> 
> ...






dirtsailor2003 said:


> Dave, your hams turned out great!
> 
> :drool:
> :points1:





Thanks for the accolades....   and the picnics are really good..... easier than BIG legged hams, which I can't get around here anyway..


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## catfish1st (Oct 27, 2015)

Awesome, got to try these picnics now.


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## daveomak (Oct 27, 2015)

Catfish1st said:


> Awesome, got to try these picnics now.




You will enjoy eating them.....


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## chewmeister (Oct 28, 2015)

Nice job. This looks like something I need to try.


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## frankljs (Aug 3, 2017)

Newbie question here: I did not see in the ingredients list how much water to add to the brine injection solution. Was it only 500cc or a 1000cc to make 500 per ham? Maybe I missed it...


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## daveomak (Aug 3, 2017)

Picnics were both about 10#'s  ,,,  sooo, at ~4600 grams per ham I used about 500 grams  (10%)    each...  Added the sugar, salt, cure etc. at the rate specified for the weight of the meat...   Did not take into account of the liquid...   reason being the added liquid will probably evaporate or cook out...  What doesn't cook out will not have an adverse effect on the curing or the salt flavor...   All of it will, or should, be left inside the meat..    It's a really quick curing method that takes up no extra room and reduces the time to cure...   Adding spices or using stock kicks up the flavor a bit...

Each ham has it's own 500 gram container for liquid, spices, salt, sugar and cure #1...   that is the only way I can insure the proper amounts of stuff get into each ham....


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## frankljs (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you dave. I have 2 picnics from my old sow that im going to copy this method with once I get all the ingredients in. I understand the liquid is 10% the weight of the leg... Just need to buy some of that phosphate ingredient and the netting bags. Thanks for taking the time and breaking it downn again for me!! Cheers


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## daveomak (Aug 4, 2017)

You are welcome...  The phosphates ...   did you see where to get them ??

http://store.theingredientstore.com/amesphos.aspx


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## frankljs (Aug 4, 2017)

Thanks for sharing the link, I will get it from amazon, since im all setup through them. preciate ya! I will take photos of mine and post em up on the thread when I start.


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## daveomak (Aug 4, 2017)




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## frankljs (Aug 27, 2017)

I just finished using this recipe on a smaller shoulder, came out great. I cold smoked it for 12 hours in the mbes using the  amazn p. s., applewood pellets, and got internal temp to 150 in the oven. It was soo good. 













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Excellent, easy recipe!
Thanks dave


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## frankljs (Aug 27, 2017)

Here's another pic of some slices. The marbling adds soo much flavor with these shoulder hams. 













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## daveomak (Aug 27, 2017)

Excellent looking meat.....


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## slotown (Dec 17, 2017)

Late to the party but this looks AWESOME!

I like to cook something special for each of our major holidays.  Thanksgiving = turkey, Christmas = prime rib, 4th of July = ribs, pork butt and fatties in the AM.  My wife loves ham. I normally hate it but usually, give it to New Years Day.  I call spiral cut hams "lunch meat" because it's only good for sandwiches.

I think your process is going to change up my views on hams.  I am already looking forward to New Years and my prime rib is not even finished.

One question.  You mention a "rest period" after the smoke.  Could you please elaborate on the where how long and temperature?

Thanks!


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## daveomak (Dec 17, 2017)

I will leave the hams hanging in the smoker with the heat off for a couple hours...  time enough for all the natural juices to coagulate..  I leave the temp probe in the ham and when it reaches 140 ish, I take the ham out...  I cook my hams to 160-165 ish..  they seem to get a lot more tender...   smoker temp is reduced during the last hour or so to slowly achieve the final meat temp...  final smoker temp is somewhere around 200-210..   exhaust damper closed 90% or so to stop the evaporative cooling effect...


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## slotown (Dec 20, 2017)

Thanks.  

Local Publics had fresh whole ham shanks on sale for $1.49/lb.  I bought one - it's a monster at 22lbs. I doubled your cure ingredients.  I plan on letting it cure for 9 full days just in case.  I may cut the skin off before the smoke.  Skins really thick I had to slam the syringe in to get through it, but I think it will help keep the cure in.  I'm worried that it covers so much of the meat it will keep the smoke out.  What do you think?


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## motocrash (Dec 20, 2017)

slotown said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Local Publics had fresh whole ham shanks on sale for $1.49/lb.  I bought one - it's a monster at 22lbs. I doubled your cure ingredients.  I plan on letting it cure for 9 full days just in case.  I may cut the skin off before the smoke.  Skins really thick I had to slam the syringe in to get through it, but I think it will help keep the cure in.  I'm worried that it covers so much of the meat it will keep the smoke out.  What do you think?


HAH! Had to get all Vincent Vega- Pulp Fiction with the syringe....


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## daveomak (Dec 20, 2017)

After the sit in the refer, you might trim off the skin...   save it for cracklins...    Doubling the recipe is fine... 

22# pig shank !!!!   I want one... maybe 3 or 6..  I love smoked shanks...  they seem to have TONS of flavor.....


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## motocrash (Dec 20, 2017)

daveomak said:


> I love smoked shanks... they seem to have TONS of flavor.....


Yep.The dark pork meat is the best!


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

daveomak said:


> After the sit in the refer, you might trim off the skin...   save it for cracklins...    Doubling the recipe is fine...
> 
> 22# pig shank !!!!   I want one... maybe 3 or 6..  I love smoked shanks...  they seem to have TONS of flavor.....




Dave,

1st thank you for all your great help and encouragement.  When I got home with that 22lb beast I was initially quite overwhelmed.  Wasnt really sure what I got into. Oh well, go big or go home...

After injecting the cure I discovered I did not have a sandwich bag big enough to fit the beast into.  I improvised and wrapped in saran wrap and placed on a baking sheet for nine days, flipping daily.  I was surprised at how little of the cure dripped back out.  Almost none!

My next challenge was how to hang it in my MES.  There are no hanging hooks built into the MES.  No sweat, I improvised and built this hanger.  Hooks came from Amazon.  Wood came from a shipping crate.  Ideas was all mine.  Three holes in case I hang something smaller in the future:


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

So after nine days in the cure into the stocking, it went.  Almost an oops here.  I purchased the 36" stocking.  Needed the 46".  The beast barely fit:







Note how nice and clean the wood is.  24 hours later it has that great looking patina.  I set the MES on 200 at 12:30 on Sunday.  I figured this might take 24 hrs or so.  At about 10:00 PM the internal meat was at 120.  I did not want to wake at 4:00 AM so I dialed it back to 180 and let it rip.  6:00 AM it was at 145.  Bumped it back up to 200.


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

At 1:00 PM, magic time it hit 165 internal.







Oohhhh.  Isn't she pretty?  Wife was shopping so I cut the temp back to 130 and let it coast till 4:30 PM. Today was cold with temp high at 42 degrees.  The ham cooled to about 140.


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

Glad I used the stocking.  It would have ripped right out of the hook without it.  This meat was so tender.







Note the cross-hatching.  The skin was so thick I was afraid it would block all the smoke.  Glad I scored it before the smoke.  The skin rectangles pop off like puzzle pieces.

The great surprise for me is there is two types of meat!  On the very bottom, it was very similar to pulled pork.  The rest of it slices very nicely.  The sliced meat is so tender it cut with a fork. 













GRAND SLAM!!

AGAIN THANKS!!!


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

BTW, I use a mailbox mod for the smoke pellets and one of those little rat maze gizmos. Filled the gizmo up three times. The pellets were beech and I ran the smoke for all 24 hours.


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## daveomak (Jan 1, 2018)

My....  It sure looks moist...  Was the flavor something close to what you were expecting ??
I like the idea of dicing up the skin first...   I'm gonna use it....
Looks like it totally cured all over...  Excellent job of injecting the beast...
Nice idea on the hanging bar...  That will come in handy for sure...


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## motocrash (Jan 1, 2018)

That couldn't be any prettier! Well maybe if it was in my fridge.


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

daveomak said:


> My.... It sure looks moist... Was the flavor something close to what you were expecting ??



The flavor was better than expected.  My baseline was 40 years of store bought hams, then glazing them and warming them up.  This had no added glaze, just the smoke and OK I did use turkey broth from our Thanksgiving dinner.  I really did not expect the bold flavor straight from the smoker.

It will be a cold day in hell before a spiral cut ham comes through my door again.


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## slotown (Jan 1, 2018)

motocrash said:


> That couldn't be any prettier! Well maybe if it was in my fridge.



Thanks!  We ate about 3 lbs of the 22.  Swing by I can help you out.  I will definitely do this again but hopefully throttle back to 12-15 lbs.


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## chopsaw (Jan 1, 2018)

Sure looks good . The part that shredded ,  was it closer to the heating element ? Maybe in a hot spot  ?


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## daveomak (Jan 1, 2018)

I'm glad you enjoyed it...  Thanks for posting your test with the "BEAST"....  others will enjoy it.....   Dave


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## slotown (Jan 2, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> Sure looks good . The part that shredded ,  was it closer to the heating element ? Maybe in a hot spot  ?



Yes it was much closer.  But you could also tell it came from a different muscle group as well.  Maybe getting up into the shoulder area?  I'm not an expert on pig anatomy, so I don't really know.


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## WillRunForQue (Jan 2, 2018)

Looks fantastic!  I've only hung a ham once but will do it again for sure.  I just used a dowel rod cut to length, which was a little trickier to work with than the sturdier setup you made.  Very nice!


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## ab canuck (Jan 2, 2018)

Wow!!! Points to you all, And yes I am late to the party...... I am going to try this method as well. We did up a couple pigs this fall and we have a couple hams we want to do. Thx for all the info, And Dave I will more than likely ask questions lol.


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## slotown (Jan 2, 2018)

i6quer said:


> Looks fantastic!  I've only hung a ham once but will do it again for sure.  I just used a dowel rod cut to length, which was a little trickier to work with than the sturdier setup you made.  Very nice!



Thanks!  Cut it off the bone today.  13 freezer bags each about 1 1/2 pound.  I'm set for awhile.  Wait, that's what I said about Bears extra smoky bacon a while back....


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## Slow42 (Nov 25, 2019)

Daveomak I’m going to give your injection method a go. I have some 450 super phosphate can I use that in place or your Amesphos.  Also whatever weight meat I get just use your 10% method, ingredients, as your recipe shows for the 500 cc per about 10 pounds? Hope this makes since to you.


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## daveomak (Nov 26, 2019)

*Single Super Phosphate Fertilizer* 
                        Rs 450/Bag 50 Kg

NO !!!!  Get some FOOD GRADE stuff.....  Use it at 0.25 to 0.4% addition...









Kosmos Q Moisture Magic Meat…

_4.3 out of 5 stars_(101)
 
Sodium Tripolyphosphate (1 lb) by…

_4.1 out of 5 stars_(14)


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## daveomak (Nov 26, 2019)

ALSO....    http://store.theingredientstore.com/amesphos.aspx

theingredientstore.com/amesphos






						Food Additives – Craft Butchers' Pantry
					






					butcherspantry.com
				



From a member on this forum...


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## Slow42 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thanks Daveomak but a little confused still. I found this information here on the 450 phosphate under title “Kosmos Phosphates” You talk about the usage of the 450 phosphate? I got mine sometime ago from Butcher and Packer can’t remember why though. Says on package 6 ounces per gallon of brine and inject accordingly. Marinade: 2 ounces per 25 pound of meat.


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## daveomak (Nov 26, 2019)

Slow42 said:


> Daveomak I’m going to give your injection method a go. I have some 450 super phosphate can I use that in place or your Amesphos.  Also whatever weight meat I get just use your 10% method, ingredients, as your recipe shows for the 500 cc per about 10 pounds? Hope this makes since to you.


*Single Super Phosphate Fertilizer* 
                        Rs 450/Bag 50 Kg 
Thanks Daveomak but a little confused still. I found this information here on the 450 phosphate under title “Kosmos Phosphates” You talk about the usage of the 450 phosphate? I got mine sometime ago from Butcher and Packer can’t remember why though. Says on package 6 ounces per gallon of brine and inject accordingly. Marinade: 2 ounces per 25 pound of meat.
------------------
Well, sounds good to me...   From you post, I had no idea your "Super Phosphate" came from Butcher Packer...   I googled "Super Phosphate 450" and what I got in return is what's in red above...


----------



## daveomak (Nov 26, 2019)

2 oz. per 25#'s meat = 
25#'s x 16 oz/# = 400 oz.   
2 / 400 = 0.005 or 0.5%....
 I recommend 0.4% added to meat...


----------



## Slow42 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thanks Daveomak I just assumed you knew what it was as you discussed it, with others, in the post I mention, a short time ago. I was just trying to determine if it was the same as the phosphates you use Just a different brand. Thanks for the help.


----------



## ROBERTO RUIZ (Jan 22, 2020)

Hi, I'm From Mexico, Could I to change AMESphos for MSG??? Thanks


----------



## daveomak (Jan 22, 2020)

ROBERTO RUIZ said:


> Hi, I'm From Mexico, Could I to change AMESphos for MSG??? Thanks



Nope...  Totally different...  

Check E-Bay.....                                        Sodium Tripoly Phosphate   Food grade
check meat suppliers for  for phosphates....                                                                                                     

 


 



 
 
*Details about   Sodium Tripolyphosphate STPP ~Food Grade~ Free Shipping Best Price*

There are moisture enhancing produicts that include seasonings...   Check that they have phosphates...


----------



## daveomak (Jan 22, 2020)

You can order Ames phos from The Ingredients Store....








						Amesphos Specialty phosphate blend
					

AmesPhos is a specialty phosphate blend for meats, seafood and poultry. It improves texture, maintains that "fresh-made taste", and reduces bacteria. 16 oz package.



					store.theingredientstore.com


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## ROBERTO RUIZ (Jan 22, 2020)

daveomak said:


> Nope...  Totally different...
> 
> Check E-Bay.....                                        Sodium Tripoly Phosphate   Food grade
> check meat suppliers for  for phosphates....
> ...


Thank you


----------



## slotown (Dec 15, 2020)

Dave,

I have been making this for new years for the past three years.  My wife looks forward to this every year as her favorite cook.  I usually read this entire thread to remember how to do this once a year cook.  This year I decided to consolidate all the pieces into a single post.  

I think I have it about right, but feel free to correct me.  Cooking temperatures and duration may be a bit subjective and vary by the smoker.  Hope you enjoy this, and if I have totally blown it let me know.

Fresh Pork Picnic

Ingredients

Pork Picnic 10#'s.... ~4500 grams....

Weights are per 500 grams injection liquid (10% injection) no salt vegetable stock

Amesphos............ 18 grams ~0.4% (0.3-0.5% recommended)

Sugar, white ....... 45 grams ~1%

Salt, pickling ...... 90 grams ~2%

Cure #1.............. . 11 grams ~153 Ppm nitrite ( edit .. OR 2 tsp for 10#'s)

NOTE: If your picnic weighs in at 20 pounds, double all of the above. If it's an off number i.e. 24 pounds then you can create a ratio that will allow you to multiply the above weights in grams. See below:

Given a 10# pork picnic weighs ~4500 grams, then:

24/10=2.4 ratio

Now multiply all the ingredients by 2.4 to get the correct measurements in grams for each ingredient. Easy.

Optional: Whole cloves (makes my wife happy to see these stuck in the ham.



Directions

1. Figure out the ratios for cure/meat weight.

2. Mix all the cure ingredients in a large bowl. I warm up my chicken broth so all the rest dissolves more easily.

3. Score the skin on the picnic using a sharp box knife with a new blade. The squares should be about 2-3 inches across. You need to do this so when you inject the ham you don't have to punch through the tough skin.

4. Inject the ham in a method that starts with injecting deep down to the bone all around the bone. It's important that the area around the bone cures or it can "sour" the entire ham. After this is done then systematically inject the rest of the ham until all of the cure is used. A lot of the cure will start to leak out don't worry. This usually ends up at about every inch or so stick the needle in. When finished either wrap the meat really well or stick it in a huge BPA safe bag. This year I'm using the Ziploc Storage Bags, Double Zipper Seal & Expandable Bottom, Jumbo from Amazon.

5. Cure time. Five days is the bare minimum, but I recommend between 10 and fifteen days. Time is your friend.

6. When the cure is finished place the meat in a 28" cotton ham bag (amazon). Then figure out how to hang the ham in your smoker.

7. Preheat smoker to 275 degrees. Place the ham in the smoker and immediately turn temp down to about 180 degrees for the next 8 hours. Then raise the temp to about 200 until internal temp reads about 165 degrees. Last few hours may need to turn temp back up to 225-250 degrees.


----------



## petewoody (Dec 15, 2020)

slotown said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have been making this for new years for the past three years.  My wife looks forward to this every year as her favorite cook.  I usually read this entire thread to remember how to do this once a year cook.  This year I decided to consolidate all the pieces into a single post.
> 
> ...


----------



## petewoody (Dec 15, 2020)

slowtown, that mirrors my process except I deduct 15% from the weight to account for the bone.


----------



## daveomak (Dec 15, 2020)

Dissolve in this order....   Before adding the cure#1, cool the Veggie stock...

Weights are per 500 cc /grams injection liquid (10% injection) no salt vegetable stock
1... Amesphos............   18 grams ~0.4%  (0.3-0.5% recommended)
2... Sugar, white .......    45 grams ~1%
3... Salt, pickling ......     90 grams ~2%
COOL...
4... Cure #1..............  .  11 grams ~153 Ppm nitrite ( edit .. OR 2 tsp for 10#'s) 

Folks have mentioned trying other veggie stock and they SUCK compared to the 
one I used...







Form a pellicle as the smoker cools from 275 to100....  initial smoke.. 100-110F...   Then up the temp to 160 ish....   when the meat IT gets to about125ish close the exhaust 90% to stop evaporative cooling...  wait for the meat IT to get up to ~135-140 amd turn down the smoker temp if you wish....   I cook pork now to ~140..  I use the pasteurization table and add about 1 hour to the finish time for safety....


Temperature    Time    Temperature    Time
°F (°C)    (Minutes)    °F (°C)    (Seconds)
130 (54.4)    112 min    146 (63.3)    169 sec
131 (55.0)    89 min    147 (63.9)    134 sec
132 (55.6)    71 min    148 (64.4)    107 sec
133 (56.1)    56 min    149 (65.0)    85 sec
134 (56.7)    45 min    150 (65.6)    67 sec
135 (57.2)    36 min    151 (66.1)    54 sec
136 (57.8)    28 min    152 (66.7)    43 sec
137 (58.4)    23 min    153 (67.2)    34 sec
138 (58.9)    18 min    154 (67.8)    27 sec
139 (59.5)    15 min    155 (68.3)    22 sec
140 (60.0)    12 min    156 (68.9)    17 sec
141 (60.6)    9 min    157 (69.4)    14 sec
142 (61.1)    8 min    158 (70.0)    0 sec
143 (61.7)    6 min        
144 (62.2)    5 min        
145 (62.8)    4 min        
Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).


----------



## slotown (Jan 1, 2021)

2021 Cook - 24lb ham
- 4:00 PM smoker set to 150 with ham in
- 4:00 AM set smoker to 175, refresh pellets
- 8:00 AM set smoker to 195
- at 1:00 PM internal meat temp 152 degrees, bumped smoker to 200
- 3:00 PM set smoker to 225 to get meat to 165
- 4:30PM internal temp Is 162.  Turned smoker off to rest.


----------



## daveomak (Jan 1, 2021)

slotown said:


> View attachment 478159
> 
> 2021 Cook - 24lb ham
> - 4:00 PM smoker set to 150 with ham in
> ...





Well, how did you like the ham ????

.....


----------



## slotown (Jan 1, 2021)

daveomak said:


> Well, how did you like the ham ????


This is the only way I eat ham.  I only do it once a year.  I absolutely detest spiral cut and store-bought hams.  I vacuum pack the remainder and consume it throughout the year.  I usually run out in early December and I start all over.


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## daveomak (Jan 1, 2021)

Sounds as if it's your Go-To-Ham recipe.....


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## ramatack (Dec 1, 2021)

daveomak said:


> Dissolve in this order....   Before adding the cure#1, cool the Veggie stock...
> 
> Weights are per 500 cc /grams injection liquid (10% injection) no salt vegetable stock
> 1... Amesphos............   18 grams ~0.4%  (0.3-0.5% recommended)
> ...


H


Slow42 said:


> Thanks Daveomak I just assumed you knew what it was as you discussed it, with others, in the post I mention, a short time ago. I was just trying to determine if it was the same as the phosphates you use Just a different brand. Thanks for the help.


Hi Dave,  I screwed up and bought no salt kitchen basics chicken sto


daveomak said:


> Dissolve in this order....   Before adding the cure#1, cool the Veggie stock...
> 
> Weights are per 500 cc /grams injection liquid (10% injection) no salt vegetable stock
> 1... Amesphos............   18 grams ~0.4%  (0.3-0.5% recommended)
> ...


Hi Dave, we'll I screwed  up and bought no salt chicken stock in stead of vegetable stock, do u think I should use this for the hams? It is kitchen basics,


----------



## daveomak (Dec 2, 2021)

I might try it...   Your ham could taste like yard bird...   
Some folks have tried other brands of vegetable stock...  Said it wasn't so good...   I'd also stick with Kitchen Basics...


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## GonnaSmoke (Dec 2, 2021)

Dave, Amesphos apparently isn't available anywhere that I can find, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Any suggestions on a substitute that is available? I've found PhosThis and Butcher BBQ Phosphate TR and both are available...


----------



## BrianGSDTexoma (Dec 2, 2021)

daveomak said:


> Nope...  Totally different...
> 
> Check E-Bay.....                                        Sodium Tripoly Phosphate   Food grade
> check meat suppliers for  for phosphates....
> ...


I just used that Butcher Pork on a butt couple weeks ago.  Best butt I made in 30 years I think.


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## daveomak (Dec 2, 2021)

Amesphos Specialty phosphate blend (theingredientstore.com) 

Click on the above link...


----------



## daveomak (Dec 2, 2021)

Food Additives – Craft Butchers' Pantry (butcherspantry.com)

It's STPP....  Sodium tripoly phosphate...


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## GonnaSmoke (Dec 2, 2021)

daveomak said:


> Amesphos Specialty phosphate blend (theingredientstore.com)
> 
> Click on the above link...


Thanks, I found that one and it's on backorder. I have a couple of picnics in my freezer that I bought a couple of months ago for 69¢/lb. and now I have a plan for them...


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## ramatack (Dec 2, 2021)

GonnaSmoke said:


> Thanks, I found that one and it's on backorder. I have a couple of picnics in my freezer that I bought a couple of months ago for 69¢/lb. and now I have a plan for them...





GonnaSmoke said:


> Thanks, I found that one and it's on backorder. I have a couple of picnics in my freezer that I bought a couple of months ago for 69¢/lb. and now I have a plan for them...





GonnaSmoke said:


> Thanks, I found that one and it's on backorder. I have a couple of picnics in my freezer that I bought a couple of months ago for 69¢/lb. and now I have a plan for them...


 I just got mine today from butchers pantry


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## daveomak (Dec 2, 2021)

If you use the "phosphate blends" folks sell to flavor meats for BBQ, they have seasonings and spices in them...  They may not give the flavor you want....
I'm not saying the veggie stock I add to my hams, is the flavor you want but.....
Adding veggie stock and flavored phosphates to your ham leg, may be a good mix or a bad mix....  hard tellin'...  
After all is said and done, try my veggie stock last.....


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## GonnaSmoke (Dec 2, 2021)

daveomak said:


> If you use the "phosphate blends" folks sell to flavor meats for BBQ, they have seasonings and spices in them...  They may not give the flavor you want....
> I'm not saying the veggie stock I add to my hams, is the flavor you want but.....
> Adding veggie stock and flavored phosphates to your ham leg, may be a good mix or a bad mix....  hard tellin'...
> After all is said and done, try my veggie stock last.....


When I get the necessary ingredients together, I'm doing like you did and then adjust from there...


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 2, 2021)

I’ve tried different flavors and different stock. We have settled on Kitchen Basics No salt vegetable stock, I believe that is what Dave uses as well. Any way it’s absolutely delicious. Everybody I’ve given some to rave about it, even my pork producer prefers it over anything else he has eaten. Thanks again for the recipe 

 daveomak


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## ramatack (Dec 2, 2021)

GonnaSmoke said:


> Dave, Amesphos apparently isn't available anywhere that I can find, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Any suggestions on a substitute that is available? I've found PhosThis and Butcher BBQ Phosphate TR and both are available...butcher packer has it, I was looking at it a few days ago. It's in categories under brings I think. Ended up getting stpp from butchers pantry because of shipping, they charge per unit. I usually by every thing from butcher packer


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## ramatack (Dec 2, 2021)

daveomak said:


> I might try it...   Your ham could taste like yard bird...
> Some folks have tried other brands of vegetable stock...  Said it wasn't so good...   I'd also stick with Kitchen Basics...


Well 3 #5-#7 in the fridge, hope they don't taste like chicken lol


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## daveomak (Dec 2, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> I’ve tried different flavors and different stock. We have settled on Kitchen Basics No salt vegetable stock, I believe that is what Dave uses as well. Any way it’s absolutely delicious. Everybody I’ve given some to rave about it, even my pork producer prefers it over anything else he has eaten. Thanks again for the recipe
> 
> daveomak



Well, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile...  That's what I think about kitchen basics...  I think their stuff is awesome...  I really fell into it when I tried it in my picnic ham...  Usually, folks add chicken stock to pork products....   Bride suggested chicken stock...   I thought....  I'd rather it taste like veggies I add to a pork roast...  Damn I was lucky...


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 2, 2021)

This is what I’ve been using 

 daveomak
. It works  well. Says it is a @blend of instantized sodium phosphates”.


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## denny (Jan 9, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Amesphos Specialty phosphate blend (theingredientstore.com)
> 
> Click on the above link...
> Ahh, nomenclature will yet be the death of me!  I read some posts recently about TSPP and bought some but haven't yet tried it.  Now I hear of STPP and wonder if it is the same as TSPP.  I am wary of making my own determinations about chemicals, so would you please set me straight on these 2 products?
> ...


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## daveomak (Jan 10, 2022)

*I WOULD NOT USE THIS STUFF....*


*Tetrasodium pyrophosphate*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Jump to navigationJump to search
Tetrasodium pyrophosphate

Related compoundsHazardsThermochemistryStructurePropertiesIdentifiersNames




IUPAC name
Tetrasodium diphosphateOther names
Pyrophosphate, Sodium pyrophosphate, Tetrasodium pyrophosphate (anhydrous), TSPP[1]CAS Number
7722-88-5 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




13472-36-1 (decahydrate) 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




3D model (JSmol)
Interactive image
ChEBI
CHEBI:71240
ECHA InfoCard100.028.880




EC Number
231-767-1
E numberE450(iii) (thickeners, ...)PubChem CID
24403
RTECS number
UX7350000
UNII
O352864B8Z





IY3DKB96QW (decahydrate) 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




CompTox Dashboard (EPA)
DTXSID9042465





show
InChIshow
SMILESChemical formulaNa4O7P2Molar mass265.900 g·mol−1AppearanceColorless or white crystals[2]OdorodorlessDensity2.534 g/cm3Melting point988 °C (1,810 °F; 1,261 K) (anhydrous)
79.5 °C (decahydrate)Boiling pointdecomposesSolubility in water2.61 g/100 mL (0 °C)
6.7 g/100 mL (25 °C)
42.2 g/100 mL (100 °C)Solubilityinsoluble in ammonia, alcoholRefractive index (_n_D)1.425Crystal structuremonoclinic (decahydrate)Heat capacity (_C_)241 J/mol KStd molar
entropy (_S_o298)270 J/mol KStd enthalpy of
formation (Δf_H_⦵298)-3166 kJ/molGibbs free energy (Δf_G_˚)-3001 kJ/molFlash pointNon-flammable*NIOSH* (US health exposure limits):PEL (Permissible)none[2]REL (Recommended)TWA 5 mg/m3[2]IDLH (Immediate danger)N.D.[2]Other anionsTrisodium phosphate
Pentasodium triphosphate
Sodium hexametaphosphateOther cationsTetrapotassium pyrophosphateRelated compoundsDisodium pyrophosphateExcept where otherwise noted, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C [77 °F], 100 kPa).




verify (what is










 ?)Infobox references
*Tetrasodium pyrophosphate*, also called *sodium pyrophosphate*, *tetrasodium phosphate* or *TSPP*, is an inorganic compound with the formula Na4P2O7. As a salt, it is a white, water-soluble solid. It is composed of pyrophosphate anion and sodium ions. Toxicity is approximately twice that of table salt when ingested orally.[3] Also known is the decahydrate Na4P2O7 *·* 10(H2O).[4]
*Use[edit]*
Tetrasodium pyrophosphate is used as a buffering agent, an emulsifier, a dispersing agent, and a thickening agent, and is often used as a food additive. Common foods containing tetrasodium pyrophosphate include chicken nuggets, marshmallows, pudding, crab meat, imitation crab, canned tuna, and soy-based meat alternatives and cat foods and cat treats where it is used as a palatability enhancer.
In toothpaste and dental floss, tetrasodium pyrophosphate acts as a tartar control agent, serving to remove calcium and magnesium from saliva and thus preventing them from being deposited on teeth. Tetrasodium pyrophosphate is used in commercial dental rinses before brushing to aid in plaque reduction.
Tetrasodium pyrophosphate is sometimes used in household detergents to prevent similar deposition on clothing, but due to its phosphate content it causes eutrophication of water, promoting algae growth.


----------



## daveomak (Jan 10, 2022)

Not to be confused with Trisodium phosphate.
Sodium triphosphate

Related compoundsHazardsPropertiesIdentifiersNames




IUPAC name
Pentasodium triphosphateOther names
sodium tripolyphosphate, polygon, STPPCAS Number
7758-29-4 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




ECHA InfoCard100.028.944




E numberE451 (thickeners, ...)PubChem CID
517047
RTECS number
YK4570000
UNII
9SW4PFD2FZ





CompTox Dashboard (EPA)
DTXSID9036307





Chemical formulaNa5P3O10Molar mass367.864 g/molAppearancewhite powderDensity2.52 g/cm3Melting point622 °C (1,152 °F; 895 K)Solubility in water14.5 g/100 mL (25 °C)Safety data sheet (SDS)ICSC 1469*NFPA 704* (fire diamond)





2
0
0Flash pointNon-flammableOther anionsTrisodium phosphate
Tetrasodium pyrophosphate
Sodium hexametaphosphateOther cationsPentapotassium triphosphateExcept where otherwise noted, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C [77 °F], 100 kPa).




verify (what is










 ?)Infobox references
*Sodium triphosphate* (STP), also *sodium tripolyphosphate* (STPP), or *tripolyphosphate* (TPP),[1]) is an inorganic compound with formula Na5P3O10. It is the sodium salt of the polyphosphate penta-anion, which is the conjugate base of triphosphoric acid. It is produced on a large scale as a component of many domestic and industrial products, especially detergents. Environmental problems associated with eutrophication are attributed to its widespread use.[2]
*Preparation and properties[edit]*
Sodium tripolyphosphate is produced by heating a stoichiometric mixture of disodium phosphate, Na2HPO4, and monosodium phosphate, NaH2PO4, under carefully controlled conditions.[2]

2 Na2HPO4 + NaH2PO4 → Na5P3O10 + 2 H2O
In this way, approximately 2 million tons are produced annually.[3]

STPP is a colourless salt, which exists both in anhydrous form and as the hexahydrate. The anion can be described as the pentanionic chain [O3POP(O)2OPO3]5−.[4][5] Many related di-, tri-, and polyphosphates are known including the cyclic triphosphate P3O93−. It binds strongly to metal cations as both a bidentate and tridentate chelating agent.


----------



## daveomak (Jan 10, 2022)

(414) Food Grade Phosphate – PS Seasoning 

Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Powder (STPP), Food grade, Kosher (chemicalstore.com) 

Where I buy my stuff.....

Sodium Tripolyphosphate – Craft Butchers' Pantry (butcherspantry.com)


----------



## denny (Jan 10, 2022)

daveomak said:


> (414) Food Grade Phosphate – PS Seasoning
> 
> Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Powder (STPP), Food grade, Kosher (chemicalstore.com)
> 
> ...


Thanks daveomak!  That helps and I'll steer clear of *Tetrasodium pyrophosphate! * I have STPP (untried) and may get some Amesphos so was wondering if there is a worthwhile difference between the two.  So little time to try so many options!  Appreciate everyone's help.


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## daveomak (Jan 10, 2022)

Amesphos...  It has other ingredients added to improve flavors...   I really like it...  Joe Ames is a good man...

2nd,  Sodium Tripolyphosphate – Craft Butchers' Pantry (butcherspantry.com)

The gentleman that owns this store, is a member here...


----------



## foamheart (Jan 10, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Amesphos...  It has other ingredients added to improve flavors...   I really like it...  Joe Ames is a good man...
> 
> 2nd,  Sodium Tripolyphosphate – Craft Butchers' Pantry (butcherspantry.com)
> 
> The gentleman that owns this store, is a member here...



Really I should thank him also then. It is my secret Andouille ingrediant!


----------



## SmokinEdge (Jan 10, 2022)

daveomak said:


> *I WOULD NOT USE THIS STUFF....*
> 
> 
> *Tetrasodium pyrophosphate*
> ...



So what brand names should be avoided, exactly?


----------



## denny (Jan 12, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> So what brand names should be avoided, exactly?


Thanks daveomak and everyone!  I have ordered Ames phos to use with STTP (not together!) along with Kitchen Basics Vegetable no-salt stock so it looks like I will be busy checking out my new Auber 1510H-W controller.  I previously built a controller around an Auber SMD-200A which works perfectly but I wanted to have WIFI.  In addition I built another controller around a Mypin TA-4 PID to control temperature with a fan to the firebox.  It will be used to run a Marshall charcoal smoker by The Good One. I just need to stop tinkering with electronics and do more smoking. This forum is a joy to use as there is so much good content available.  My only problem is finding specific detail which relates to my choice of key words, I guess, and then mining the comments for for the inevitable pearls they will contain!  And while I'm at it, Bear's Step by Step contributions make it easy to tackle anything!  It's a wonderful site!


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## daveomak (Jan 13, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> So what brand names should be avoided, exactly?



I would avoid stuff that is not food grade STPP... Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate..


----------

