# dry cure sausage questions...



## indaswamp (Apr 2, 2019)

So, as most of y'all know I recently acquired a couple of free refrigerators and I will be turning one into a drying chamber for dry cured meats. I have been researching/reading a lot of stuff on making dry cured meats while I source the equipment for the drying chamber.

A few questions...

I have some odds and ends of beef middle casings left over from making andouille last fall. Can I use them for stuffing Soppressata? 

Do the collagen sheets act as the casing? Which is better? pros and cons. I've never fooled with collagen sheets. Does it stay on or get removed when drying is complete?

What molds are recommended for the hot and humid south? I do have a room I could hang the stuffed sausages in to ferment that I can probably get down to 62~64*...is that cool enough? What does the humidity need to be for fermenting? Does it matter?

Best online resources for learning about dry cured meats? I've looked through meatsandsausages which is wednely and domone (sp.?)...any others?

Thanks for the help.


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2019)

I have the paperback and kindle editions...


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## Saline_Smoker (Apr 3, 2019)

Swamp,

I’ll try to rapid fire a few of your questions here.

• Beef middles for soppressata: They’re going to work great. I use beef middle to dry cure most my salamis. They adhere really well to the meat.

• Collagen sheets: sorry don’t know, never used ‘em. My guess is you’d remove them though.

• Which mold: Mold-600 is the most widely available mold on the market and likely what you’ll end up using if you choose to mold. I’ve actually never seen any other type (though books say there are indeed others out there).

• Fermentation temp: the temp you’ll want to ferment at is dependent on your culture strain, slow low temp ones like T-SPX and B-LC 007, you’ll want ~65-70° F, fast high temp ones like FLC you can ferment at ~85-100°F. I just use whichever one is seasonably appropriate (read temp is easy to achieve), and hold them at the temp/time suggested by the manufacturer.

• Fermentation humidity: yes, it does matter. You want a high humidity, 90% RH, is typically recommended. This is to prevent premature drying of the sausages and to allow the cultures to do their thing completely from the center to the outer surface of the sausages. Because of the high RH needed, I ferment in a jumbo Rubbermaid tub.

• Resources: really, I have to ditto Dave, the Marianski’s book is by far the best investment you can make if you’re getting into making dry cured and fermented sausages. The price is well worth it, I assure you. I have both the Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (which should be your first purchase), and their The Art of Making Fermented Sausages. The second having a lot of the same information as the first, but some supplementary info and a lot more recipes specifically geared toward fermented sausages.


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

Thanks for posting guys!


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2019)

If you get the Kindle version, it is updated as the book is updated...  That's a really cool feature...


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## fivetricks (Apr 3, 2019)

I bought that same book on Dave's reccommendation and it's def worth the price. It's a very good read.


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

daveomak said:


> If you get the Kindle version, it is updated as the book is updated...  That's a really cool feature...


Dave, I'm old school.....I do not own a Kindle. And I don't have a facebook account either.....I'll get the hard copy.


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## dernektambura (Apr 3, 2019)

Colagen sheets work just fine. . I did some filleto baciatto wrapped in collagen sheets and tightly stuffed in butcher net....Colagen sheets are breathable and will shrink to size as sopresatta dries and shrinks...


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Dave, I'm old school.....I do not own a Kindle. And I don't have a facebook account either.....I'll get the hard copy.




You can read Kindle books on your desk top...  I do....


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

daveomak said:


> You can read Kindle books on your desk top...  I do....


Really? I did not know that Dave....


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

Saline_Smoker said:


> Swamp,
> 
> I’ll try to rapid fire a few of your questions here.
> 
> ...




This guy has you covered.   

First time using sheets here. We have talked about it.   They are to be removed.  Any questions I will try to answer them.


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

Also-are you guys checking the pH after fermenting? If so, what pH meter are you guys using?


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

I dont check ph.   Add the culture and the time fermenting.   Risky?  Maybe.  But I am still here.


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

pc farmer said:


> I dont check ph.   Add the culture and the time fermenting.   Risky?  Maybe.  But I am still here.


See....this is one of the reasons I have hesitated jumping in to making dry cured meats and sausages. From the little I know, you want the pH to drop at or below pH4.8 within 48 hours of fermentation. The bad bugs are growing just like the Lactic acid bacteria, and you want that lactic acid to inhibit/stop the bad bugs growing. Maybe it's just me....but I want to check it prior to drying......Being in the danger zone for that long has it's risks no doubt.


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> See....this is one of the reasons I have hesitated jumping in to making dry cured meats and sausages. From the little I know, you want the pH to drop at or below pH4.8 within 48 hours of fermentation. The bad bugs are growing just like the Lactic acid bacteria, and you want that lactic acid to inhibit/stop the bad bugs growing. Maybe it's just me....but I want to check it prior to drying......Being in the danger zone for that long has it's risks no doubt.




Maybe I should get something and check mine.   I follow what the package says for temp and time and dont worry about it .


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

If your culture is dead, no lactic acid produced......but how will you know unless you check it? You can't visually see it....


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> If your culture is dead, no lactic acid produced......but how will you know unless you check it? You can't visually see it....



Culture keeps for a long time in the freezer.   I have some a year old.


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## chopsaw (Apr 3, 2019)

pc farmer said:


> Culture keeps for a long time in the freezer. I have some a year old.


I have some dated June 2016 .


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2019)

Check this out...
 pH paper


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

As always, everyone has their way of doing things.  Your gonna have to read and experiment.  My way may not be your way of doing things.   This type of making meats you will get all types of answers.


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Check this out...
> pH paper


Are those the ones you use?


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

What pH meter do you recommend?  

 BGKYSmoker


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Are those the ones you use?



I just ordered some, just to see where my ph is at.


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## pc farmer (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> What pH meter do you recommend?
> 
> BGKYSmoker




He dont use one.     I have learned and am learning from him


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Are those the ones you use?


 yep...   Keep them wrapped in foil and in a cool dark place, otherwise they will go to hell....


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

daveomak said:


> yep...   Keep them wrapped in foil and in a cool dark place, otherwise they will go to hell....


Thanks for the tip dave...away from humidity too I would guess??? in a ziplock bag?


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

I found a sicilian salami recipe I gotta try....seasoned with sea salt, BP and lemon zest. pistachios added to the meat paste...


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## indaswamp (Apr 3, 2019)

pc farmer said:


> He dont use one.     I have learned and am learning from him


I did not think he used one....but he might know of a good one to recommend.


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## dernektambura (Apr 4, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> See....this is one of the reasons I have hesitated jumping in to making dry cured meats and sausages. From the little I know, you want the pH to drop at or below pH4.8 within 48 hours of fermentation. The bad bugs are growing just like the Lactic acid bacteria, and you want that lactic acid to inhibit/stop the bad bugs growing. Maybe it's just me....but I want to check it prior to drying......Being in the danger zone for that long has it's risks no doubt.


I wouldn't worry about ph.... in living animal meat ph is higher, once slaughtered it lowers down.   essentially, ph is meat ability to retain water and by salting/curing and smoking/drying you are trying to withdraw meat water as much  as you can.... in  home making enviroment, you cant really control ph but you can speed up or slow down meat dehydration by controlling temperature and humidity values...


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## indaswamp (Apr 4, 2019)

dernektambura said:


> I wouldn't worry about ph.... in living animal meat ph is higher, once slaughtered it lowers down.   essentially, ph is meat ability to retain water and by salting/curing and smoking/drying you are trying to withdraw meat water as much  as you can.... in  home making enviroment, you cant really control ph but you can speed up or slow down meat dehydration by controlling temperature and humidity values...


Yes, the pH drops in post rigor meat, but not low enough to prevent pathogens. That's what the lactic acid bacteria are for...
The only controls you have as a home producer are ensuring your cultures are viable, ensuring a good environment for fermentation to occur, and checking the pH after fermentation.


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## dernektambura (Apr 4, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Yes, the pH drops in post rigor meat, but not low enough to prevent pathogens. That's what the lactic acid bacteria are for...
> The only controls you have as a home producer are ensuring your cultures are viable, ensuring a good environment for fermentation to occur, and checking the pH after fermentation.


Yes... Lactic acid bacteria is food preservative.. . cure #1 and #2 are also preservatives.... so, using lactic acid bacteria after you already cured meat with (for example) cure #2, beats a purpose of using cure #2 in first place...


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## daveomak (Apr 4, 2019)

dernektambura said:


> Yes... Lactic acid bacteria is food preservative.. . cure #1 and #2 are also preservatives.... so, using lactic acid bacteria after you already cured meat with (for example) cure #2, beats a purpose of using cure #2 in first place...




Only if you are using bacteria cultures to lower the pH...  Curing without bacteria culture does need the extra preservation of cure #2, for long term nitrate/nitrite conversion from the bacteria that's naturally occuring in the meat, to make the extra nitrite...  or so it says in fine print somewhere...

It's amazing what folks can learn from this site...   all the intracacies everyone adds to the conversations...  
One thing folks learn, maybe, is that the rules can change with every change you make when curing...  
If you add "this" then this will happen....  If you add "that" then that will happen....  By no means is this hobby "black and white"...   There more grey than on my head....


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## indaswamp (Apr 4, 2019)

dernektambura said:


> Yes... Lactic acid bacteria is food preservative.. . cure #1 and #2 are also preservatives.... so, using lactic acid bacteria after you already cured meat with (for example) cure #2, beats a purpose of using cure #2 in first place...


Lactic acid alone will not produce a safe product. Clostridium botulinum bacteria can survive in a low acid environment...below pH 4.6...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/39257

Cure #1 or #2 must be used to neutralize Clostridium botulinum toxin production. The lactic acid environment prevents the growth of many other pathogens.


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## BGKYSmoker (Apr 5, 2019)

Sorry im late to the party.

The pH strips are good and save you some $, get both pH level paper.
Take a small chunk of your meat and clear wrap it to check the pH, then re wrap it. Why cut the ends of your casings to check pH.
Note: If you vac seal you pH strip containers they will last longer.


If pH meters are what your looking for then do some research as some are pretty expensive, dont forget the calibration liquids.


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## indaswamp (Apr 5, 2019)

Thanks Rick. Great tips with the meat in the plastic wrap...


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## indaswamp (Apr 5, 2019)

I did find this:

*Bactoferm™ B-LC-007*

Bactoferm™ B-LC-007 is a patented culture blend capable of acidification as well as preventing growth of Listeria. The culture produces pediocin and bavaricin (think of them like a kind of "antibiotics") that keeps Listeria monocytogenes at safe levels by the additional hurdle thrown at it.

It is recommended to use this culture at low fermentation temperatures between 64-75°F for the production of European style products with very low acid profiles.

This culture makes T-SPX obsolete due to all the additional beneficial strains that come with it. You want the added yeast and both cocci strains for flavor development predominantly, and this blend has it all. Because the fermentation temperature is low as well we suggest this culture is a game changer by offering so much more than T-SPX. This blend offers added Listeria protection, where T-SPX does not. Both forms of cocci bacteria work together in developing the characteristic flavors of fermented sausages, while also reducing the residual amount of nitrite in your product due to their secretion of enzymes that cause the reduction of the residual nitrite in the sausage. So you end up consuming less in the final product than using a culture blend with these beneficial bacteria.

B-LC-007 is truly a superior culture to use for low temperature fermentation.

This blend contains:

Debaryomyces hansenii - a yeast which inhibits rancidity, is lipolytic, suppresses acidity (tang), and for flavor development
Lactobacillus sakei - produces lactic acid, produce bacterocins, and aids in the prevention of Listeria
Pediococcus Acidilactici - produces lactic acid, produce bacterocins, and aids in the prevention of Listeria
Pediococcus pentosaceus - is lactic acid producing, and proteolytic
Staphylococcus carnosus - develops flavor, improves color stability, proteolytic, lipolytic, tests positive for nitrate reductase activity
Staphylococcus xylosus - develops flavor, improves color stability, proteolytic, lipolytic, tests positive for nitrate reductase activity

Sold in a 50g bag which is enough to ferment 495# of meat.

Use 0.022% the weight of the meat. Meaning, measure your meat in grams, then multiply the weight of your meat by 0.00022. This number is the proper amount of culture to add to you meat.

To disperse evenly we recommend hydrating the culture for 25 minutes in 60 mL of distilled water. For every 5# of meat use 30mL of distilled water to hydrate and disperse the culture. It is best to add the culture when spiced meat is in chunks, mix around, then grind to desired particle size. Mix evenly after grinding.

Storage:

Always store your cultures below 1°F for a shelf life of 18 months. If stored above 41°F the shelf life is 6 weeks.


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## daveomak (Apr 5, 2019)

Then.....  when weighing the sausage to determine % weight loss.....   Subtract the weight of the water you added with the bacteria culture, to get an ACCURATE weight loss....


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## indaswamp (Apr 5, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Then.....  when weighing the sausage to determine % weight loss.....   Subtract the weight of the water you added with the bacteria culture, to get an ACCURATE weight loss....


Why? I do not follow your reasoning for this.

The way I see it; water is water and whether it is added or from the meat cells, it will have to be evaporated out of the meat to reach your target weight loss. If you add a 1/2 cup extra water, than an extra 1/2 cup of water need to be evaporated, not left in the meat paste.....otherwise, if your target is 30% weight loss from water evaporation, doing it the way you describe, you'll end up with less than a 30% weigh loss because that extra 1/2 cup of water is still in the meat.
Or am I looking at this wrong?????

I guess the question is: 
Are you looking for a 30% weight loss of the finished salami or a 30% weight loss of the meat used to make the link? There would be a difference as to how it is calculated. I do not know being relatively new to dry curing salamis.


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## Saline_Smoker (Apr 5, 2019)

B-LC-007 is a good spring/fall culture here in MI. Perfectly matches the temp of our dining room (which is on a block foundation with a small crawl space from the rest of the slab house). Always a good ~5ºF cooler in there. The added Bactoferm 's_afety junk'_ strains in there make it a really nice substitute for T-SPX, giving you an added level of assurance.

$0.02 of my experience (take it or leave it): if I'm flip-flopping to B-LC-007 from an FLC recipe; for B-LC-007 I just lower the dextrose/sucrose in the recipe a bit (~0.15-0.20%). In my experience, the hardier slow low temp B-LC-007 cultures seem to work a little longer on those sugars than the fast high temp FLC culture (likely just because of the extra cold smoking time on the salamis that is still in the fermentation temp range of the B-LC-007), so you may want to adjust your sugars depending on what you're doing (or account for your cold smoke time), otherwise you can end up with an overly acidic end product - though nothing outside of edible; just not consistent with a batch made with FLC at a higher temp another time of year. For example, my normal salami recipe has 0.5% dextrose, and 0.5% brown sugar (sucrose) in it when I use FLC in the summer months, so if I'm making them in the cooler months and using B-LC-007, I drop the dextrose and brown sugar to 0.30-0.35%.


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## Saline_Smoker (Apr 5, 2019)

I should note though, based off my reading of the bacteria strain/acidity production graphs from Chr. Hansen (the people who make pretty much all of these cultures), you likely won't want to drop your sugar levels any further than a minimum of 0.30%. Those bacteria guys do need something to work off of after all.

(That seems to be the lowest level they test in their labs, so best I can figure it's the floor you shouldn't bust through)


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## daveomak (Apr 6, 2019)

indaswamp said:


> Why? I do not follow your reasoning for this.
> 
> The way I see it; water is water and whether it is added or from the meat cells, it will have to be evaporated out of the meat to reach your target weight loss. If you add a 1/2 cup extra water, than an extra 1/2 cup of water need to be evaporated, not left in the meat paste.....otherwise, if your target is 30% weight loss from water evaporation, doing it the way you describe, you'll end up with less than a 30% weigh loss because that extra 1/2 cup of water is still in the meat.
> Or am I looking at this wrong?????
> ...




Let me example....  
You have 10# sausage....  You add 1# of water to it....  You are looking for a 30% weight loss in the stick....   
You weigh the stick after X days and it weighs 7.7#'s....  That's a 30% weight loss from the 11# stick...   
That's not what you want... 
You want a stick that weighs 7#'s...  a 30% weight loss from the original meat weight...
You are looking for an Aw, (water activity in the meat)...  If you add water to the meat, you messed with nature.....


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## indaswamp (Apr 6, 2019)

Gotcha Dave. We are now on the same page....thanks for the explanation.


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## dernektambura (Apr 6, 2019)

I gotta admit  I am a bit lost here with this bacteria culture business...Everything I know about smoking and meat preservation I learned from my old timer grandpa... Now, he was simple man who didn't care much about technological progress and he was a champion when it comes down to meat smoking and preservation.... I don't remember he ever used anything else except salt and salt peter back in old days....cure #1 & #2 nova days are substitute for salt peter... he would add sugar but sugar was only to preserve meat natural color..  No one ever got sick  even thou he never used bacterial cultures.... I guess it's good thing but I am lost. . lol..


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## indaswamp (Apr 6, 2019)

dernektambura said:


> I gotta admit  I am a bit lost here with this bacteria culture business...Everything I know about smoking and meat preservation I learned from my old timer grandpa... Now, he was simple man who didn't care much about technological progress and he was a champion when it comes down to meat smoking and preservation.... I don't remember he ever used anything else except salt and salt peter back in old days....cure #1 & #2 nova days are substitute for salt peter... he would add sugar but sugar was only to preserve meat natural color..  No one ever got sick  even thou he never used bacterial cultures.... I guess it's good thing but I am lost. . lol..


Some environments naturally have a great balance of natural cultures. Adding culture ensures the good bacteria get a strong foot hold and multiply fast, lowering the risk of bad pathogens getting the upper hand.


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## BGKYSmoker (Apr 7, 2019)

Some of mine are going on 5 years, always frozen and still work as normal. As usual the Gov best by date is a bunch of BS on these type of items.

So its your call on how long you keep your bacto.


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## Cajuneric (Sep 2, 2019)

Starter cultures are the area where most people get hung up.  Depending on what culture you use and what type of salami you are making you will ferment at different temperatures.  When the fermentation has happened you will visibly see a change in the texture, smell, and color of the meat.  If after fermentation you salami still feels like squishy ground mince then something went wrong.  I made a quick video talking about a few of the most popular starter cultures in case you want some technical and sciency info on them...  But to take a stab at your initial question anything under 5.3 is good to go for salami.  Testing the pH is the way to go for solid peace of mind!!


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