# Running Too Hot



## rob gebby (May 13, 2020)

I have a Landman vertical smoker and it runs too hot.  I have tried opening, closing and blocking the vents....no help.  I run about 255+ as low as I can go without opening the door.  I have a ThermPro probe suspended from the hooks in the top of the smoker as my temperature source.  Water pan is full as well as I use an aluminum drip pan on the 4th rack just to catch some grease and fill that with water as well.  (Easier to throw away than clean the regular pan.)  I looked for an extra, adjustable regulator but the one I found doesnt fit a regular hookup.  I thought about closing the gas valve partially at the tank.  I read about people plugging some of the holes....but wouldnt that just force the same amount of gas through the remaining holes?  I havent had luck posting links but if you go to Lowes website and search on the item number, it will pop up.  1272860
EDIT****  After posting this, I seem to have gotten the temp to stay at 217 after opening the door to spray the meat.  I will play around with the aluminum foil I covered the vents with to see if I can get it to 225 but still, if I smoke salmon, I read that should be done at 160-190, which I still am unable to achieve.


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## Winterrider (May 13, 2020)

Plug a few holes and that allows you to have the dial turned up a little higher to omit flame out for low temps.


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## bill1 (May 13, 2020)

Yes, plugging holes will allow you to keep adequate pressure and flow at the _remaining _holes so your resulting flame is steady and reliable while reducing the total heat the burner produces.   I think you'll have to plug _at least_ 20% of the burner holes to notice any difference.  And you'll want them be sealed _tight_. Slight leaks may not ignite from the neighboring jets but could leak enough gas to become an explosion or startle hazard. So this mod is not to be taken lightly.

i don't know the Landman burner design but could you press-fit the ends of round toothpicks in them?  The burner itself doesn't get that hot itself and that would be reversible while still being fairly safe.  (Still, inspect them regularly.)  Plugging holes with sheet metal screws is effective but not reversible--the holes will be permanently damaged.   

Note this reduces the BTUs of your cooker so it will take longer to heat up, assuming you've been using full heat to get up to temp.     

Burners are rated by BTU so an alternative could be _replace _the burner with one ~2/3 the rated BTUs of what you have.  Have you searched on this?  This could be a common complaint of Landmean gas owners.


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## rob gebby (May 13, 2020)

bill1 said:


> Yes, plugging holes will allow you to keep adequate pressure and flow at the _remaining _holes so your resulting flame is steady and reliable while reducing the total heat the burner produces.   I think you'll have to plug _at least_ 20% of the burner holes to notice any difference.  And you'll want them be sealed _tight_. Slight leaks may not ignite from the neighboring jets but could leak enough gas to become an explosion or startle hazard. So this mod is not to be taken lightly.
> 
> i don't know the Landman burner design but could you press-fit the ends of round toothpicks in them?  The burner itself doesn't get that hot itself and that would be reversible while still being fairly safe.  (Still, inspect them regularly.)  Plugging holes with sheet metal screws is effective but not reversible--the holes will be permanently damaged.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this response.  I might look into the new burner.  I dont understand about plugging the holes.  Are you saying plug the holes AND turn the valve on the tank so it isnt open as far?  Because if the same amount of gas is coming through less holes, it will just produce a stronger flame which will be just as hot.  Is it safe to have the valve partially closed?  I'm surprised there isnt an easier/more common solution to this problem.  Can we say "million dollar idea" ?  (hint hint)
I do like the toothpick idea better than the other ones.  It would be a shame to mess up the smoker, especially if I do it wrong and make it unusable.


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## SecondHandSmoker (May 13, 2020)

This issue has been discussed a lot here on SMF.

Read through the posted link and pay close attention to what 

 daveomak
  advises.






						Propane master built smoker modifications
					

Hello,  I’m looking for some ideas and recommendations on my masterbuilt propane vertical 2 door smoker (I think it’s the 230mps model)  I have a cast iron skillet for the wood chips/chunks sitting on a grate, gasket sealed doors, and an ambient thermometer probe. I am planning on getting a 0-30...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## rob gebby (May 13, 2020)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> This issue has been discussed a lot here on SMF.
> 
> Read through the posted link and pay close attention to what
> 
> ...


Thank you.  I tried to get one of those valves but the only one I could find, at Lowes, didnt fit a standard tank.  I dont understand what the other valve is for though (the needle valve) ?  If you buy that one giving you one valve to regulate pressure/gas flow (technically 3 since the tank has a valve and the smoker has a high/low valve)  why do you need the fourth?  Does it go in between the valve on the hose and the tank?  By the way, I'm good with my high temps, I just want to be able to go lower as well.  

Also, someone told me plugging up the vents LOWERS the temps since it starves oxygen, which makes sense.  But I also saw someone discussing opening to let heat out?  It seems from using it that the chimney on the top is best open to let heat out but that's just what I observed today.  Can you elaborate because maybe I dont need anything and I just dont fully understand how to use the venting system.  Thank you.


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## daveomak (May 13, 2020)

Run the upper and lower vents WIDE OPEN on a gasser...  The needle valve goes between the pressure regulator and your smoker...  With the tank turned on, and your smoker valve open, and a flame on the burner, start to close down the needle valve...   DO NOT LET THE FLAME GO OUT...  
If the flame starts to go out, turn off the tank....   plug at least 1/2 the holes in the burner...  (check out the above thread linked to you ) ....  turn the tank back on...  light the burner...   adjust it.... It will be putting out 1/2 the heat from before...


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## SecondHandSmoker (May 13, 2020)

This.  Dave explained better than I could. Plus, he is faster typist to boot.


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## rob gebby (May 13, 2020)

daveomak said:


> Run the upper and lower vents WIDE OPEN on a gasser...  The needle valve goes between the pressure regulator and your smoker...  With the tank turned on, and your smoker valve open, and a flame on the burner, start to close down the needle valve...   DO NOT LET THE FLAME GO OUT...
> If the flame starts to go out, turn off the tank....   plug at least 1/2 the holes in the burner...  (check out the above thread linked to you ) ....  turn the tank back on...  light the burner...   adjust it.... It will be putting out 1/2 the heat from before...


Ok.  I am getting what you are saying...slowly.  And I really appreciate it but why do I need the valve with the red handle if I have the needle valve?  Cant i just use the one I have?  I read on another post that I need to know the...uuuh...rating of my regulator (there is no control, it's a sealed regulator that cant be changed) it says 2.8 KPS.


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## SecondHandSmoker (May 13, 2020)

The described regulator is an adjustable pressure regulator that allows you to regulate pressure only.  You will still need the needle valve to regulate gas flow.


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## bill1 (May 13, 2020)

rob gebby said:


> Are you saying plug the holes AND turn the valve on the tank so it isnt open as far?  Because if the same amount of gas is coming through less holes, it will just produce a stronger flame which will be just as hot...


Your intuition is correct for normal liquid flow...if you halve the parallel paths for constant supply pressure you'll double the flow in the remaining ones.  But the physics of the flame makes this different.  That chart on post #9 of the link given above is a great reference worth saving.  It shows your flame energy is really just a function of orifice size and supply pressure (and how many orifices you have.)  When you start trying to throttle down the actual flow rate with needle valves, flames get unsteady, die out, and gas can dangerously accumulate.   (When valves work at all in burner control it's because they're functioning as a poor pressure regulator.)   

So note the chart shows supply _pressure _(not flow) is a significant variable.  But many burners come with hoses and regulators that are already preset at quite low pressures...e.g. my cheap gas grill uses a very common 11 water inches (.4 psi) so using an adjustable 0-20psi regulator like the Amazon reference would be very difficult to adjust to .2 or .3 psi, although it could be OK if I wanted _more _heat from my burner.  

Hence plugging off orifices is your next trick.  If you have a micrometer or calipers, and a selection of drill rods, using nails that are oversized by ~.002-.005" (per the #14 post in that link) is an ingenious idea--much better than temporary toothpicks.  They'll seal (for safety), are removable (if you ever change your mind), and leave behind only a modestly over-sized orifice if you do remove them.  

But looking into a new burner isn't a bad approach though either!


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## rob gebby (May 13, 2020)

bill1 said:


> Your intuition is correct for normal liquid flow...if you halve the parallel paths for constant supply pressure you'll double the flow in the remaining ones.  But the physics of the flame makes this different.  That chart on post #9 of the link given above is a great reference worth saving.  It shows your flame energy is really just a function of orifice size and supply pressure (and how many orifices you have.)  When you start trying to throttle down the actual flow rate with needle valves, flames get unsteady, die out, and gas can dangerously accumulate.   (When valves work at all in burner control it's because they're functioning as a poor pressure regulator.)
> 
> So note the chart shows supply _pressure _(not flow) is a significant variable.  But many burners come with hoses and regulators that are already preset at quite low pressures...e.g. my cheap gas grill uses a very common 11 water inches (.4 psi) so using an adjustable 0-20psi regulator like the Amazon reference would be very difficult to adjust to .2 or .3 psi, although it could be OK if I wanted _more _heat from my burner.
> 
> ...


OK.  I might try sealing some holes before messing around with valves, etc.  If sealing the holes doesnt work, I can still buy the valves.  Thank you.


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## daveomak (May 14, 2020)

You WILL still need a needle valve...  Just plugging the holes won't do what you want...  Your smoker will still have the BTU output...  Same pressure, same gas flow...   The burner only burns what you put into it...  it doesn't regulate anything.....


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## rob gebby (May 14, 2020)

daveomak said:


> You WILL still need a needle valve...  Just plugging the holes won't do what you want...  Your smoker will still have the BTU output...  Same pressure, same gas flow...   The burner only burns what you put into it...  it doesn't regulate anything.....


Dave, you might have missed my question...I understand what the needle valve does but why do I need a new regulator with a dial on it if I am going to be adjusting the gas flow with the needle valve?  Cant i just use the one I have?  It is a 2.8 KPS.  Thank you.


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## daveomak (May 14, 2020)

High pressure regulators are designed to produce 50-100,000 BTU....  Your smoker only needs about 10,000 BTU's max.....
Why put a 454 cu. in. big block in a grocery getting car for your bride.....


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## rob gebby (May 14, 2020)

daveomak said:


> High pressure regulators are designed to produce 50-100,000 BTU....  Your smoker only needs about 10,000 BTU's max.....
> Why put a 454 cu. in. big block in a grocery getting car for your bride.....


So, are you saying that the one with the red handle makes BIG adjustments and then the needle valve is for fine tuning?  So, once you get the red handled one right, you wont need to move it often?  Sorry for the questions, I just really like to fully understand.  Also, vents open makes it hotter or cooler??  Same for the chimney on top?  Open is hotter or cooler??  I've heard people disagree on that.


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## daveomak (May 14, 2020)

Rob, you are OVERTHINKING this....   
If you adjust the RED valve, then adjust the needle valve....   The RED valve becomes obsolete....  The needle valve is adjusting  ALL of the flow....
This stuff ain't rocket science.....   Grab a couple beers, a lawn chair and sit and ponder what is happening in your smoker...  You may have to delete the current file of "What you think you know"...


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## rob gebby (May 14, 2020)

daveomak said:


> Rob, you are OVERTHINKING this....
> If you adjust the RED valve, then adjust the needle valve....   The RED valve becomes obsolete....  The needle valve is adjusting  ALL of the flow....
> This stuff ain't rocket science.....   Grab a couple beers, a lawn chair and sit and ponder what is happening in your smoker...  You may have to delete the current file of "What you think you know"...


OK....that's actually WHY I was asking you about this, because I didnt see a need for both valves but your post on another forum gave both links and I thought you were saying you need both.  I didnt understand why.  That's why I kept asking but I got it now.  Thank you.


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## gary s (May 14, 2020)

Gary


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## Joatman (May 14, 2020)

I had a Smoke Hollow brand propane vertical smoker that had the same problem. It had two separate burners, and even using only one of them, I couldn’t get the temp as low as I wanted....UNTIL.... I discovered that I was able to set the dial “in between” the zero (off) and the 1 setting.


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## daveomak (May 14, 2020)

Joatman said:


> I had a Smoke Hollow brand propane vertical smoker that had the same problem. It had two separate burners, and even using only one of them, I couldn’t get the temp as low as I wanted....UNTIL.... I discovered that I was able to set the dial “in between” the zero (off) and the 1 setting.



The problem with that.....   The flame can get so low it is easy to have a "flame out"....  Then you create a PROPANE BOMB...   By plugging 1/2-3/4 of the holes in the burner, you can keep the flame UP and almost eliminate the BOMB from a flame out....


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## Joatman (May 14, 2020)

So what you’re saying is that I’m lucky I didn’t blown my house to pieces!!! Thankfully, I got lucky....


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## rob gebby (May 14, 2020)

Joatman said:


> So what you’re saying is that I’m lucky I didn’t blown my house to pieces!!! Thankfully, I got lucky....


Well, that all depends.  If you were $50,000 upside down on your mortgage and just lost your job due to COVID 19 then maybe NOT blowing the house up isnt so lucky!  lol


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## Joatman (May 14, 2020)

LMAO


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## daveomak (May 15, 2020)

Man killed when meat smoker explodes
Colleen Kottke, The (Fond du Lac, Wis.) Reporter 4:49 p.m. EST December 15, 2014 

(Photo: The (Fond du Lac, Wis.) Reporter)
TOWN of LAMARTINE, Wis. — A Wisconsin man using a homemade meat smoker to cook turkeys and chickens died when the smoker exploded, police said.
Richard L. Zabel, 55, was found dead Saturday afternoon inside a machine shed.
"The North Fond du Lac Ambulance and Lamartine first responders were called to the scene for the initial report that someone had fallen," said Lt. Cameron McGee of the Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Office. "When investigators arrived on scene, they discovered that a 55-year-old man was dead inside the building."
Zabel, a town of Lamartine man, did not live at the building's location, but lived nearby.
"Evidence indicates that the flame on the LP burner went out and as a result the gas continued to accumulate inside the smoker," McGee said. "And when (Zabel) went to relight the burner, the spark from the lighter caused the gas to explode."
McGee said the force of the explosion caused the heavy duty door of the smoker to blow open, striking Zabel in the head, killing him instantly.
"When something explodes, it's going to blow open at the weakest point which was the door, which was triple-latched," McGee said.
McGee said the smoker was larger and better constructed than most store-bought models.
"It was about 4-feet tall and about 3-feet wide and built really solid, including the door. Someone really put a lot of thought into building this thing," McGee said. "We were told that they had been using it for the past three years without any problems."
The Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Office is investigating the incident.


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## EdP (May 15, 2020)

I converted a WSM to propane and I tried putting screws in holes to reduce btu's for low temps but it really didn't work.  I started with every other hole and then every third hole, but it must've disrupted the gas flow because it would go out regularly.


And I had a mini daveomak experience, the lid shot up about a foot.

It doesn't flame out unless it's really windy, but now I remove the lid before relighting.


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## daveomak (May 15, 2020)

Did you try shortening the screws so they wouldn't block the gas flow ???  ALSO, try blocking 1/2 the holes in a row, leaving the other half of the holes open so the flame can ignite the hole next to it...  And, leave the flame up a bit so you don't get a flame out...  You will still have reduced heat because of the holes being plugged...


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## rob gebby (May 15, 2020)

EdP said:


> I converted a WSM to propane and I tried putting screws in holes to reduce btu's for low temps but it really didn't work.  I started with every other hole and then every third hole, but it must've disrupted the gas flow because it would go out regularly.
> 
> 
> And I had a mini daveomak experience, the lid shot up about a foot.
> ...


What they were telling me is you should plug all the holes together so the remaining open ones can keep each other lit, plus you need a needle valve to be able to lower the pressure once you plugged the holes up.  If that isnt clear, read Dave's comments above.


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## EdP (May 15, 2020)

rob gebby said:


> What they were telling me is you should plug all the holes together so the remaining open ones can keep each other lit, plus you need a needle valve to be able to lower the pressure once you plugged the holes up.  If that isnt clear, read Dave's comments above.



I abandoned that experiment before someone got hurt.

It was to try low temp fish smoking, but I found this as a non-explosive way to do it.


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