# Curing levels for flavor?



## browneyesvictim (Dec 15, 2017)

A thought occurred to me today that I haven't seen discussed here on SMF. A search didn't provide me any success. Nor is there is anything in any of the books on curing I've read come right out and say what I believe to be true. So the idea in my head I want to discuss I believe is avoided because it can cause confusion for those learning to cure.

As a person learns about curing meat, it is quickly established that safe curing levels of ppm nitrite is of utmost importance. *So first let me make clear for anyone new to curing that the rules MUST be followed for proper and safe curing.
*
Typically cure is used for for the prevention of botulism when smoking or drying in the temperature danger zones when bacteria can multiply exponentially. The USDA sets safe level guidelines in PPM for nitrite concentration to be used a given product- that is so to speak- for when sustaining temperatures in the temperature "danger zones". The maximum level of concentrations are set because too much of the nitrites can be harmful

Now with that disclaimer being said, there are ways of using cure for the color flavor and how it changes the properties of the meat. What I want to discuss here is *when cure is used but all other rules regarding safe food handling temperatures are observed*. So what I haven't read, but I believe to be true is: the minimum PPM of nitrite used can be less than proscribed by the USDA in this case. But what I am reading between the lines that is NOT SAID is that when cure is used the proteins of the meat are either CURED or they are NOT CURED- there is no such thing as "in-between" or "partialy cured". That is with the exception in the case of a lack of penetration in the muscle where it is still grey in the middle and not pink because of not enough time was given for penetration. But there is no such thing as a variation of the pink cure color or properties. I don't believe there a difference in cure strengths (lower concentration) that would produce only a light cure with only a light pink color and not as strong of a cured flavor no matter how long it was cured.

For example: if I were to brine a pork loin or butt and I am going to cook it just like a roast or I could even cut into steaks. For this, I am going to use a standard brine and a few herbs and spices in a gallon of water but I use 1/2 a teaspoon of cure #1 (instead of 1 heaping Tablespoon as you would for say, Pops wet cure brine). I even pump it inside with an injector to speed along the process. I keep it in the refrigerator (at safe temps) for a couple of weeks, then pat it dry and cook it to temperature in my oven or smoker. If my belief is correct, it will not be just slightly hammy tasting roast but would have a fully cured ham as if 1 heaping tablespoon of cure was used. It would either be fully cured or it wouldn't.

I would never fool around by messing with lower cure concentrations when making bacon, CB or ham etc. (nor do I want to) I always keep to the recipe, so I don't have a point of reference to know if my belief is correct when applied in my example above.


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## motocrash (Dec 15, 2017)

bev,I believe I have read plenty on here about people using #1 in turkey brines,pork roast and chop brines etc. with an overnight or 48hr soak for the flavor you speak of and abiding by the 40-140 rule.Unfortunately I cannot cite  any of the threads.Dave & Kevin (foamheart) come to mind...


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## pops6927 (Dec 15, 2017)

Wade had my Pop's Curing Brine tested and here is the results:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 15, 2017)

motocrash said:


> bev,I believe I have read plenty on here about people using #1 in turkey brines,pork roast and chop brines etc. with an overnight or 48hr soak for the flavor you speak of and abiding by the 40-140 rule.Unfortunately I cannot cite  any of the threads.Dave & Kevin (foamheart) come to mind...



Thanks Moto. I have seen those "short" brines. In fact I have used them myself several times. But I am talking using about lesser PPM brines to achieve the same results.


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## motocrash (Dec 15, 2017)

I understand,a full osmosis with less ppm.What I was trying to convey is what is the diff as long as you abide by the 40-140.


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 15, 2017)

pops6927 said:


> Wade had my Pop's Curing Brine tested and here is the results:
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results



Pops- I was hoping you of all people would read this. I have read these very thorough tests of your very useful brine. I'm not getting the answer to what I am bringing up that is spelled out of that testing. ...At least the way I am understanding it.


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 15, 2017)

Guys... What I am getting at, is if a person wants to use cure only as a light flavor enhancer not a full cure. I know it can be safely done. That's not the question or topic of discussion, but what are the effects in flavor at different concentrations.

Gosh, Im having a hard time conveying my thought here... Must be a Friday... Time to go home and have a malt beverage and start the smoker.


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## pc farmer (Dec 15, 2017)

In my opnion, in your example it will have a lite ham flavor.  The more cure, the more ham flavor.


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## motocrash (Dec 15, 2017)

Sorry man.Grab your beverage twist one :cool: and listen to this.


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## zwiller (Dec 16, 2017)

c farmer said:


> In my opnion, in your example it will have a lite ham flavor.  The more cure, the more ham flavor.



+1;  Dangerous business talking on the web about this even with all the qualifying info.  I fooled with smaller amounts of cure in brine and there was nothing really special about it.  That said, pops low salt (LS) is something to consider.  Full cure but less prominent ham taste.  Semi local brewery make the best smoked wings I ever had.  I am pretty sure they are curing them but it is not obvious.  They are dry rubbed and the rub has salt in it so regular brine is out.  That's where LS come in...  

I am equally perplexed in the takeaway of that brine thread but my personal takeaway is that Pop's brine is on the lower but still safe side of formulations and I consider that a good thing.


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 16, 2017)

You would be getting into very tiny amounts to even attempt a Lite Cure and I am not sure it can be done. We are working on a molecular level where Nitrite is chemically changing Myoglobin in the muscle. How much do we add to get it to just change " some " or " half " the Myoglobin? You may be talking such a weak concentration as to be talking part per Trillion. Below is what the USDA/FSIS Inspectors Handbook has to say on Minimum Cure...JJ

As a matter of policy, the Agency requires a minimum of 120 ppm of ingoing nitrite in all cured "Keep Refrigerated" products, unless the establishment can demonstrate that safety is assured by some other preservation process, such as thermal processing, pH or moisture control. This 120 ppm policy for ingoing nitrite is based on safety data reviewed when the bacon standard was developed. There is no regulatory minimum ingoing nitrite level for cured products that have been processed to ensure their shelf stability (such as having undergone a complete thermal process, or having been subjected to adequate pH controls, and/or moisture controls in combination with appropriate packaging). However, 40 ppm nitrite is useful in that it has some preservative effect. This amount has also been shown to be sufficient for color-fixing purposes and to achieve the expected cured meat or poultry appearance. Some thermally processed shelf-stable (canned) products have a minimum ingoing nitrite level that must be monitored because it is specified as a critical factor in the product's process schedule.


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 18, 2017)

c farmer said:


> In my opnion, in your example it will have a lite ham flavor.  The more cure, the more ham flavor.



Now We're talkin! See. This is what I am not sure about... That would normally make sense to me too. But It also seems its all based on the chemical conversion taking place or not-not by how much. can you explain why you think that?


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 18, 2017)

motocrash said:


> Sorry man.Grab your beverage twist one :cool: and listen to this.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks!  I needed that! It was a Jim Beam Black and smoked salts on Friday night!


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 18, 2017)

zwiller said:


> +1;  Dangerous business talking on the web about this even with all the qualifying info.  I fooled with smaller amounts of cure in brine and there was nothing really special about it.  That said, pops low salt (LS) is something to consider.  Full cure but less prominent ham taste.  Semi local brewery make the best smoked wings I ever had.  I am pretty sure they are curing them but it is not obvious.  They are dry rubbed and the rub has salt in it so regular brine is out.  That's where LS come in...
> 
> I am equally perplexed in the takeaway of that brine thread but my personal takeaway is that Pop's brine is on the lower but still safe side of formulations and I consider that a good thing.



hmm... I have used pops LS  brine before. In fact I use it exclusively now for bacon. Actually I prefer it lower sugar as well. Even then, I haven't noticed any difference to the "hammy" or "Bacony" taste. Just less sweet and salty as you would expect.

I know this is a touchy subject, but remember the sole purpose is using Cure #1 as a flavor enhancer -not to cure to make ham, bacon or anything else like that.


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 18, 2017)

chef jimmyj said:


> You would be getting into very tiny amounts to even attempt a Lite Cure and I am not sure it can be done. We are working on a molecular level where Nitrite is chemically changing Myoglobin in the muscle. How much do we add to get it to just change " some " or " half " the Myoglobin? You may be talking such a weak concentration as to be talking part per Trillion. Below is what the USDA/FSIS Inspectors Handbook has to say on Minimum Cure...JJ



Chef- Thank you for your insight on this. Yes! My proposition is if a Lite Cure is possible. So you are in the camp of "Its Cured or Not Cured- There is no in-between". Perfect!  I think you articulated and explained this better what I was thinking and trying to say.

So by what your quote is saying... even at 40 PPM nitrite, meat or poultry will LOOK cured. Hmmm... I wonder about taste?  Good information here! This is exactly the kind of information I am trying to glean.[/QUOTE]


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 19, 2017)

According to the USDA 40ppm will color the meat. How light the flavor would need to be tested. Though I don't think it will be lighter. Curing causes a chemical change on a molecular level. The transformation either takes place or it doesn't. Can you combine two Hydrogen atoms with one Oxygen atom and get sort of Water? Even with a tiny amount of cure, less than 40ppm. The Nitrite will begin penetrating the meat and chemically change the Myoglobin it contacts until all the molecules are used then the reaction stops and the rest of the meat remains unchanged. You may like the flavor of a Salt and Sugar only brined pork roast. Salty and Smokey but not cured...JJ


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## daveomak (Dec 20, 2017)

To sum it up.........

A partial cure is like being partially pregnant...  or something like that...


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## tallbm (Dec 20, 2017)

browneyesvictim said:


> Guys... What I am getting at, is if a person wants to use cure only as a light flavor enhancer not a full cure. I know it can be safely done. That's not the question or topic of discussion, but what are the effects in flavor at different concentrations.
> 
> Gosh, Im having a hard time conveying my thought here... Must be a Friday... Time to go home and have a malt beverage and start the smoker.



I'm not expert here but I have done turkey drumsticks and thighs with some cure in the brine.
It gives the Turkey that state faire/disney flavor (kind of hammy).  
I don't believe that with the brine added and thee 12-24 hour brine period that the meat is FULLY cured like you would want a bacon or a ham to be fully cured.

You then smoke these items of meat just like if they weren't cured at all.  So I do 325F until an IT of 165F, to get edible Turkey skin.

The flavor is completely different from non cured turkey drums and thighs.

So in short, yeah I think you can do what you want and get some flavor changing.  I also agree that you will find very little out there about what you want to do BUT one good case/example of what you are talking about is with Turkey drums, thighs, wings :)

See my cured turkey drumbs/thighs experience here with full details:
https://smokingmeatforums.com/threads/cured-smoked-turkey-drumstricks-like-qview.264534/

Let me know if this info helps :)


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2017)

browneyesvictim said:


> Guys... What I am getting at, is if a person wants to use cure only as a light flavor enhancer not a full cure. I know it can be safely done. That's not the question or topic of discussion, but what are the effects in flavor at different concentrations.
> 
> Gosh, Im having a hard time conveying my thought here... Must be a Friday... Time to go home and have a malt beverage and start the smoker.




I understand your question, but using TQ I don't adjust the concentration, I adjust the time:
I use TQ, but when I use it for flavor instead of completely curing I use the same "Proper" amount, but I don't worry about curing it long enough since I'm going to Smoke it just like it wasn't cured at all.

Such as my "Bacon-On-A-Stick":
*Bacon-On-A-Stick *

You will see I used the proper amount of TQ, but I only cured it for 48 hours, because all I wanted was the Hammy flavor.
It comes out Awesome this way.

Bear


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## browneyesvictim (Dec 20, 2017)

Wow! Both those drums and ribs look fantastic! I really love the cured bird and have only ever fully cured them. I think I will try your recipe tallbm. 

Bear, you know I think those ribs look like perfection done that way! As a matter of fact I have a bone-in loin (crown roast) on tenderquick and brown sugar right now... Its the full cure like you did, but I am on day 4 as of today. I would pull it out short, but I would be afraid it would be ugly grey in the middle. With ribs it looks like you can get away with it. Also just like the turkey legs.

Thanks all for the input and discussion.


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 20, 2017)

A partial cure would give " some " hammy flavor on the surface based on 1/4" penetration per day. But you would get a Pink hammy ring then a Gray center just like any other meat.  For Pulled Pork the flavor profile of the mixed outside and inside would be Slightly hammy but with any other meat it will just look like a very deep Smoke Ring. 
I really don't know anyway else to say it. Curing is Chemistry. A reaction takes place 100% of the time to a predictable result or you put two chemicals together and nothing happens. You take Pork, put Nitrite in contact with Myoglobin and a predictable and permanent reaction takes place resulting in Myoglobin becoming stable and unaffected by heat denaturing it into Metmyoglobin that which makes uncured meat Gray. In other words the Myoglobin stays Pink when cooked and if Smoked, the cured portion of the Pork taste like Ham. After all, that is what Ham is! Cured Pork. You can have  Partially Cured as in just X inches of the surface cured but there is just no way to get ALL of the meat to be only 25, 50 or 75% cured for Ham Lite...JJ


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2017)

chef jimmyj said:


> A partial cure would give " some " hammy flavor on the surface based on 1/4" penetration per day. But you would get a Pink hammy ring then a Gray center just like any other meat.  For Pulled Pork the flavor profile of the mixed outside and inside would be Slightly hammy but with any other meat it will just look like a very deep Smoke Ring.
> I really don't know anyway else to say it. Curing is Chemistry. A reaction takes place 100% of the time to a predictable result or you put two chemicals together and nothing happens. You take Pork, put Nitrite in contact with Myoglobin and a predictable and permanent reaction takes place resulting in Myoglobin becoming stable and unaffected by heat denaturing it into Metmyoglobin that which makes uncured meat Gray. In other words the Myoglobin stays Pink when cooked and if Smoked, the cured portion of the Pork taste like Ham. After all, that is what Ham is! Cured Pork. You can have  Partially Cured as in just X inches of the surface cured but there is just no way to get ALL of the meat to be only 25, 50 or 75% cured for Ham Lite...JJ




There ya go!!!
You "Splained" That real good, Ricky!!

Bear


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## tallbm (Dec 20, 2017)

browneyesvictim said:


> Wow! Both those drums and ribs look fantastic! I really love the cured bird and have only ever fully cured them. I think I will try your recipe tallbm.
> 
> Bear, you know I think those ribs look like perfection done that way! As a matter of fact I have a bone-in loin (crown roast) on tenderquick and brown sugar right now... Its the full cure like you did, but I am on day 4 as of today. I would pull it out short, but I would be afraid it would be ugly grey in the middle. With ribs it looks like you can get away with it. Also just like the turkey legs.
> 
> Thanks all for the input and discussion.



You will LOVE the turkey if you follow what I did in those posts.  Its soooo good! :)


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