# Bag cure bacon - cure time?



## Lima Delta

Hello!
I have a batch of bacon which I've been curing in bags in the fridge.  In all, I have 8 slabs weighing 4-6 lbs each in four separate bags. After rubbing each slab down thoroughly with my curing mix, I placed two slabs in each bag meat-side to meat-side, flipping and agitating the bags daily.
Yesterday, after curing 10 days, I had planned to take everything out and smoke it all. I removed a slab from one bag and sliced a few test strips. The slab itself looked, smelled and felt amazing (nice and firm) but after test frying I noticed that there was a thin uncured "vein" of meat between two layers of fat. On closer inspection of the slab, I could see the uncured meat as a thin pink zone in an otherwise well-cured hunk of belly. So, not having experienced this before (using this method, my bacon has always been cured in 7-10 days) I put the bag back in the fridge after overhauling all the bacon by turning them fat-side to fat-side in the bags. I'm hoping to stretch the curing time out now, but I have never gone longer than 10 days using this method before. They will be 11 days as of today.
My question is this:
Using *cure #1*, what is the maximum time I can allow my bacon to cure like this?

Thanks for reading!


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## SmokinEdge

What was the cure mix you used? How much was applied to each belly? How much cure #1 was used?


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## Steve H

If I were to take a guess without further info. I'm saying having 2 slabs touching each other in the bag could cause this. If they were on top of each other as you suggested. Then that would throw the cure time out the window.


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## lamar

I  always cure my bacon a minimum of 2 weeks, so you are good to go longer.  Read recently where someone cured for a month and had good bacon.


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## chopsaw

Lima Delta said:


> uncured meat as a thin pink zone


Uncured cooked will be grayish in color .


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## Lima Delta

Thanks for the replies. 
I'm using 1 tsp of #1 per 5lbs of meat in this recipe. I measured out separate batches of rub for each bag based on weight. After rubbing each slab down, the leftover rub was added to the bag and has formed a brine with the water that came out of the meat.
I've heard of people curing bacon much longer than a couple of weeks, but it isn't clear to me if they were using something other than cure #1. Although as I understand it, it's not good to use anything containing nitrate when curing bacon. So does anyone have any experience curing bacon for, say, 3 weeks using just cure #1?


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## Lima Delta

Chopsaw,
Yeah, it's a light pink in the uncooked slab.


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## Steve H

chopsaw said:


> Uncured cooked will be grayish in color .


True. But I think he was taking about the uncooked slab after further looking.


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> I removed a slab from one bag and sliced a few test strips.


This tells me that he sliced a few pieces from the end of one of the slabs. Cure travels in all directions, even from the sides about 1/4” per day, so the end pieces he sliced were cured, more so than maybe the center of the slab. Hard to make a call not knowing the salt % and cure #1 % to meat weight.


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## chopsaw

Yeah . If it didn't get oxygen to it it will show pink . On the surface touching will leave a pink color or spots .


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## Lima Delta

Cure #1 was measured out at 1tsp / 5lbs meat
I used 6% kosher salt

The high salt % is partly what has me wondering how long is too long...


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> Cure #1 was measured out at 1tsp / 5lbs meat
> I used 6% kosher salt
> 
> The high salt % is partly what has me wondering how long is too long...


Ok you are good on cure and in the correct amount.
6% salt is extremely high and while this helps the curing process it will make the belly too salty to taste good. You will need to soak the belly in cold clean water for a few hours changing water every hour or so to lower the salt content. I cure with 1.5-1.75% total salt. I wouldn’t recommend over 2.0% total salt.

As to the pale pink color, that can be normal in some muscles in belly. The color comes from nitrite reducing to nitric oxide and that fixes itself to myoglobin in the meat fixing the pinkish red color we associate with cured meat. The more myoglobin in the muscle the more pronounced that pink color. The less myoglobin the more pale the color. I have seen this occasionally in my bacon and I’ve seen it in commercial bacon. I think your bacon is fully cured. If you go longer, I’m afraid you may end up with inedible bacon for the salt content. The stronger the salt concentration, the faster the meat cures, but we need to balance this with a quality finished product. If it were my bacon, I would rinse it well in cold water then soak, then dry and smoke.


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## Lima Delta

SmokinEdge said:


> Ok you are good on cure and in the correct amount.
> 6% salt is extremely high and while this helps the curing process it will make the belly too salty to taste good. You will need to soak the belly in cold clean water for a few hours changing water every hour or so to lower the salt content. I cure with 1.5-1.75% total salt. I wouldn’t recommend over 2.0% total salt.
> 
> As to the pale pink color, that can be normal in some muscles in belly. The color comes from nitrite reducing to nitric oxide and that fixes itself to myoglobin in the meat fixing the pinkish red color we associate with cured meat. The more myoglobin in the muscle the more pronounced that pink color. The less myoglobin the more pale the color. I have seen this occasionally in my bacon and I’ve seen it in commercial bacon. I think your bacon is fully cured. If you go longer, I’m afraid you may end up with inedible bacon for the salt content. The stronger the salt concentration, the faster the meat cures, but we need to balance this with a quality finished product. If it were my bacon, I would rinse it well in cold water then soak, then dry and smoke.



Thanks for the advice.
I made this recipe with the 6% salt last year, and it came out fine - not too salty at all which is why I did the same thing again this year. Last year however, I had it fully cured in 7 days. Well live and learn lol. I'll definitely give my bacon a bath before smoking and next year I'll be sure to dial back the salt.

As to the pink meat, I'm sure it was uncured because the the test pieces I fried had that "pork chop color" instead of a proper cooked cured color.

Out of curiosity, if a person were wanting to prolong the curing this way what would a safe limit be when using #1?


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## SmokinEdge

L
 Lima Delta

I’m not sure where you got your recipe or how it was developed, but in cure, weather brine or dry rub, everything tries to come to equilibrium. That is the meat and the cure mix or brine try to balance equally with one another.
In the curing process, salt pushes into the meat because there is no salt inside. As this happens water gravitates from the meat to the exterior of the meat where there is a concentration of salt. Highs rush to lows and vise a verse. The cure #1 (nitrite) follows the salt in osmosis. So the higher the concentration of salt, the faster nitrite moves through the meat or the faster osmosis occurs. But we want a tasty final product and we don’t live in 17th century America with no refrigeration. So we cure for flavor, food safety and presentation for the most part.

So, if we apply nitrite at 0.25% to meat weight and apply no more then 2.0% salt again to meat weight, these are sufficient concentration for food safety, effective curing. Also if you want to cure for 3 weeks because it convenient it’s all good because there is only a maximum of 2.0% salt to meat weight. It can’t get more salty. It’s safe and can ride as long as a month with no more saltiness than 2.0% meat weight. But at 6.0% salt, the salt will still try to equalize and given enough time it will. Giving a final product too salty to eat.

Im more than happy to walk you through a recipe based on % to meat weight. This is key to successful and repeatable curing.


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## Lima Delta

Ok, that makes sense, thanks. The recipe I had is just one I got from the internet, which I copied for the flavors. 
I understand that the cure must be measured independently according to the weight of the meat, but that the other ingredients can be adjusted according to taste. Clearly I didn't account for how the salt flavor would be affected by the duration of the cure.

I can see I came to the right place, thanks again!


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> Out of curiosity, if a person were wanting to prolong the curing this way what would a safe limit be when using #1?


The safe limit for cure #1 is 0.25% to meat weight. Or 1.1 grams per pound of meat, or 1 level teaspoon per 5 pounds of meat. This all will bring you to the same result of approximately 156 parts per million. This is within USDA guidance and very effective.


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> After rubbing each slab down thoroughly with my curing mix, I placed two slabs in each bag meat-side to meat-side, flipping and agitating the bags daily.


This also can be a problem, although not huge. If you are going to do this, place the bellies fat side to fat side. Salt, which carries or pushes the cure(nitrite) moves much slower through fat than through muscle. So keeping the meat side exposed to the cure is best. Curing is all about thickness of meat (if not injected) so 1/4” per day. A belly that is 1 1/2” thick with fat on one side will cure in about 6-7 days. 10 days is a nice buffer. If salt % is equilibrium, then 2 weeks is fine or up to 4 weeks. Just remember to leave the meat side exposed to cure.


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## Lima Delta

Ok, that also makes sense. This year is the first time I've put more than one slab per bag so if the bacon is slow to cure this year, that's probably why. Here's hoping my bacon doesn't turn out too salty! 
I'll report back with when I know more!


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## thirdeye

Lima Delta said:


> Cure #1 was measured out at 1tsp / 5lbs meat
> I used 6% kosher salt
> The high salt % is partly what has me wondering how long is too long...





Lima Delta said:


> Ok, that makes sense, thanks. The recipe I had is just one I got from the internet, which I copied for the flavors.



I agree that 6% salt is very high, plus the carrier for the sodium nitrite is also salt, so your total salt will now be over 6%.  For perspective 6% salt would be 60 grams of salt per kilogram of pork belly.  I use 1.5% salt which is 15 grams of salt per kilogram of pork belly. 

In theory, when dry or wet curing formulations are stronger than usual, the curing time can be reduced, but you still have to take into account the diffusion of the Cure #1.  But I've never seen any published curing method that calls for 6% salt. *Can you post the full recipe (or link) that you used?  There might be something in the write-up that will give us a clue as to the salt percentage.  *

A soak-out in cold water will  likely be needed.  I would go for at least 2 hours, then make a slice and discard it.  Take a second slice and test fry it, tasting for saltiness.  This should tell you if you need to soak-out longer.


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## Lima Delta

thirdeye said:


> A soak-out in cold water will  likely be needed.  I would go for at least 2 hours, then make a slice and discard it.  Take a second slice and test fry it, tasting for saltiness.  This should tell you if you need to soak-out longer.


I'll do that. I was going to test fry after a soak, but I wouldn't have thought to discard the outer piece - thanks.

Here is a link to the original recipe that I used (you'll need to skip down a ways to the section "Dry cure method"). But here is the gist: " *Start by combining ½ cup of salt ½ cup of brown sugar, 1 TBS of black pepper, and 1 tsp of Insta-Cure #1.* "
I first tried this recipe a couple of years ago, but last year I changed it by eliminating the honey and instead added garlic and onion powder, but kept the salt and sugar ratios the same.
This year I again kept the salt and sugar ratios the same but added some cayenne pepper.
Per 5lbs belly:
-1 tsp cure #1
- 1/2 cup dark brown sugar
- 1/2 cup (144 g) kosher salt
- 1 tbsp cracked black pepper
- 1 tsp onion powder
- 1 tsp garlic powder
- 1 tsp cayenne pepper


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> I'll do that. I was going to test fry after a soak, but I wouldn't have thought to discard the outer piece - thanks.
> 
> Here is a link to the original recipe that I used (you'll need to skip down a ways to the section "Dry cure method"). But here is the gist: " *Start by combining ½ cup of salt ½ cup of brown sugar, 1 TBS of black pepper, and 1 tsp of Insta-Cure #1.* "
> I first tried this recipe a couple of years ago, but last year I changed it by eliminating the honey and instead added garlic and onion powder, but kept the salt and sugar ratios the same.
> This year I again kept the salt and sugar ratios the same but added some cayenne pepper.
> Per 5lbs belly:
> -1 tsp cure #1
> - 1/2 cup dark brown sugar
> - 1/2 cup (144 g) kosher salt
> - 1 tbsp cracked black pepper
> - 1 tsp onion powder
> - 1 tsp garlic powder
> - 1 tsp cayenne pepper


Just ask here. Don’t use internet recipes. Any of us will be more than happy to help you develop a good working recipe. Just ask, this place is full of knowledgable people more than willing to help.
Our methods and recipes are time tested and accurate.


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## thirdeye

Lima Delta said:


> I'll do that. I was going to test fry after a soak, but I wouldn't have thought to discard the outer piece - thanks.
> 
> Here is a link to the original recipe that I used (you'll need to skip down a ways to the section "Dry cure method"). But here is the gist: " *Start by combining ½ cup of salt ½ cup of brown sugar, 1 TBS of black pepper, and 1 tsp of Insta-Cure #1.* "



Thanks for the link.  In a nutshell, the recipe is calling for 0.25% of Cure #1 which is correct.  Next it calls for 6% salt, and 6% sugar, plus the addition of honey.  A lot of honey.  The main purpose of sugar is to offset the sharp bite of salt.  I'm thinking that this recipe is acceptable to some folks is because of all the sugar and sweet.  In other words.... instead of using something like 1.5% salt and 1% sugar, the recipe is heavy handed on the salt but even more heavy handed on the sugar.  *A high concentration of sugar can cause bacon to burn unexpectedly.   *This reminds me of my Grandfather's method for bacon which is called the 'salt box' method and is basically a wooden tray with sides, salt, sugar and cure. the bellies are coated by hand and sight.  No measuring.   It worked, but the bacon was not as consistent as modern curing techniques deliver. 

Below is a snip from my bacon article so you can see where I'm coming from:

_Mixing The Cure - The percentages listed below are based on the weight of a trimmed pork belly._

_Salt - The recommended range of salt is between 1% and 3%. I use canning salt, but sea salt or kosher salt works fine.  Do not use iodized table salt. _
_Sugar - The recommended range of sugar is between 0% and 3%.  You don't actually need sugar in your cure, but it mellows the salt and adds flavor as well as color.  A higher percentage of sugar will increase chances of your bacon burning when frying._
_Cure #1 - The amount of Cure #1 is set by the USDA at 0.25%.  Do not increase or decrease this amount, and always measure Cure #1 carefully and accurately. _
_How To Decide On Your First Curing Blend - First off, consider salt.... how salty do you like your bacon?  The typical bacon you buy at the store is 2% to 2.5% salt and uses about the same percentage of sugar.  A recipe might be 2% salt, 1.5% sugar or for a sweeter bacon you might use 2% salt, 2.5% sugar.  White sugar has a lighter flavor and color, brown sugar is a deeper flavor and will make the bacon a little darker, and maple sugar is a bit sweeter and more distinct. _


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## SmokinEdge

thirdeye said:


> Thanks for the link.  In a nutshell, the recipe is calling for 0.25% of Cure #1 which is correct.  Next it calls for 6% salt, and 6% sugar, plus the addition of honey.  A lot of honey.  The main purpose of sugar is to offset the sharp bite of salt.  I'm thinking that this recipe is acceptable to some folks is because of all the sugar and sweet.  In other words.... instead of using something like 1.5% salt and 1% sugar, the recipe is heavy handed on the salt but even more heavy handed on the sugar.  *A high concentration of sugar can cause bacon to burn unexpectedly.   *This reminds me of my Grandfather's method for bacon which is called the 'salt box' method and is basically a wooden tray with sides, salt, sugar and cure. the bellies are coated by hand and sight.  No measuring.   It worked, but the bacon was not as consistent as modern curing techniques deliver.
> 
> Below is a snip from my bacon article so you can see where I'm coming from:
> 
> _Mixing The Cure - The percentages listed below are based on the weight of a trimmed pork belly._
> 
> _Salt - The recommended range of salt is between 1% and 3%. I use canning salt, but sea salt or kosher salt works fine.  Do not use iodized table salt. _
> _Sugar - The recommended range of sugar is between 0% and 3%.  You don't actually need sugar in your cure, but it mellows the salt and adds flavor as well as color.  A higher percentage of sugar will increase chances of your bacon burning when frying._
> _Cure #1 - The amount of Cure #1 is set by the USDA at 0.25%.  Do not increase or decrease this amount, and always measure Cure #1 carefully and accurately. _
> _How To Decide On Your First Curing Blend - First off, consider salt.... how salty do you like your bacon?  The typical bacon you buy at the store is 2% to 2.5% salt and uses about the same percentage of sugar.  A recipe might be 2% salt, 1.5% sugar or for a sweeter bacon you might use 2% salt, 2.5% sugar.  White sugar has a lighter flavor and color, brown sugar is a deeper flavor and will make the bacon a little darker, and maple sugar is a bit sweeter and more distinct. _


More knowledge. This guy has seen a thing or two in curing meat.


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## Lima Delta

thirdeye said:


> Thanks for the link.  In a nutshell, the recipe is calling for 0.25% of Cure #1 which is correct.  Next it calls for 6% salt, and 6% sugar, plus the addition of honey.  A lot of honey.  The main purpose of sugar is to offset the sharp bite of salt.  I'm thinking that this recipe is acceptable to some folks is because of all the sugar and sweet.  In other words.... instead of using something like 1.5% salt and 1% sugar, the recipe is heavy handed on the salt but even more heavy handed on the sugar.  *A high concentration of sugar can cause bacon to burn unexpectedly.   *This reminds me of my Grandfather's method for bacon which is called the 'salt box' method and is basically a wooden tray with sides, salt, sugar and cure. the bellies are coated by hand and sight.  No measuring.   It worked, but the bacon was not as consistent as modern curing techniques deliver.
> 
> Below is a snip from my bacon article so you can see where I'm coming from:
> 
> _Mixing The Cure - The percentages listed below are based on the weight of a trimmed pork belly._
> 
> _Salt - The recommended range of salt is between 1% and 3%. I use canning salt, but sea salt or kosher salt works fine.  Do not use iodized table salt. _
> _Sugar - The recommended range of sugar is between 0% and 3%.  You don't actually need sugar in your cure, but it mellows the salt and adds flavor as well as color.  A higher percentage of sugar will increase chances of your bacon burning when frying._
> _Cure #1 - The amount of Cure #1 is set by the USDA at 0.25%.  Do not increase or decrease this amount, and always measure Cure #1 carefully and accurately. _
> _How To Decide On Your First Curing Blend - First off, consider salt.... how salty do you like your bacon?  The typical bacon you buy at the store is 2% to 2.5% salt and uses about the same percentage of sugar.  A recipe might be 2% salt, 1.5% sugar or for a sweeter bacon you might use 2% salt, 2.5% sugar.  White sugar has a lighter flavor and color, brown sugar is a deeper flavor and will make the bacon a little darker, and maple sugar is a bit sweeter and more distinct. _



Good morning - food for thought for breakfast today! Thanks Thirdeye.

I used that recipe the first time I tried a bag cure. Prior to that I had brined my bacon using a 10% salt solution like I would for a ham. Coming from that, 6% didn't seem all that "heavy handed" at the time but of course I'm a greenhorn. Regardless of how this batch turns out, I'm already looking forward to next time.
One of the things I've noticed about learning to cure meat is that when a person is just beginning, it's easy to find recipes to follow but recipes don't really teach anything about the "why" of it all. I got tired of following prescriptions this year and got this book "Home production of quality meats and sausages" which I found really helpful in explaining the role of nitrite and nitrate in meat curing. But even a decent book can only help so much. I can see now too that I should have come to this forum sooner for the experience!
In any case, because of circumstances I won't be smoking until tomorrow so I'll take the bacon out today and soak it then let it sit overnight in the fridge.


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> I got tired of following prescriptions this year and got this book "Home production of quality meats and sausages" which I found really helpful in explaining the role of nitrite and nitrate in meat curing.


Any book by Marianski is good. If I were to recommend a book for beginners or pro, it’d be that book.



Lima Delta said:


> I used that recipe the first time I tried a bag cure. Prior to that I had brined my bacon using a 10% salt solution like I would for a ham. Coming from that, 6% didn't seem all that "heavy handed" at the time but of course I'm a greenhorn. Regardless of how this batch turns out, I'm already looking forward to next time.


Just so that you understand the difference.
In a brine the meat can only uptake so much liquid. It’s hard to know exactly how much and every piece of meat is different, but 3-4% of meat weight is possible.  This is why you can use a 60* SAL brine which is about 1.5# salt to 1 gallon water and nitrite concentration can be as high as 2000ppm. The assumption from USDA is that not more than 10% of the pickle can be absorbed, 10% can only be done with injection. So we are safe.

With dry rub, the salt you apply is 100% salt. And the cure applied cannot exceed 200ppm because it is assumed that 100% we apply will be absorbed by the meat. So we mix up exactly what we want the meat to have in it when curing is complete. In this way we are never under or over cured. No mater if in cure 10 days or 3 weeks. It’s always cured to what we applied.


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## indaswamp

I have not read through the entire thread, but the guys are giving you great advice. I did see this:


Lima Delta said:


> the leftover rub was added to the bag and has formed a brine with the water that came out of the meat.



Next time, put the extra rub in between the slabs if you will be stacking and bagging them together. This will help the slabs cure faster.


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## thirdeye

Lima Delta said:


> Good morning - food for thought for breakfast today! Thanks Thirdeye.
> 
> I used that recipe the first time I tried a bag cure. *Prior to that I had brined my bacon using a 10% salt solution like I would for a ham.* Coming from that, 6% didn't seem all that "heavy handed" at the time but of course I'm a greenhorn. Regardless of how this batch turns out, I'm already looking forward to next time.



Okay fair enough.  

 SmokinEdge
 gave you a great rundown of the science behind the scene of curing brines and the Marianski book goes into more detail about the strengths of various brines as well as using charts and a salometer. 

That said, equilibrium curing can also be used when making a curing brine.  You mentioned a 10% salt solution, and here is why curing brines need way more salt, sugar and cure than an equilibrium dry cure.  *The short answer is weight*.   Instead of basing salt, sugar and cure on meat weight (when dry curing).... *when brine curing you have water in the bucket, and in the equation. * A gallon of water for example is 8.3 pounds, so if you wanted to cure a 3 pound pork belly and it took 1 gallon of water to cover it,  *you have to calculate salt, sugar and cure on 11.3 pounds total*, not 3 pounds of meat weight.  

In equilibrium curing, when you eventually find your sweet-spot recipe, say 1.7% salt, 2% sugar and 0.25% Cure #1 (or whatever you like for salt and sugar as the 0.25% of Cure #1 remains constant):

For dry curing, base your percentages on meat weight.
For brine curing, base your percentages on meat weight + water weight.


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## Lima Delta

Thanks guys, those are excellent concise explanations. I understand the differences between the methodologies a lot more clearly now than I did before.


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> Thanks guys, those are excellent concise explanations. I understand the differences between the methodologies a lot more clearly now than I did before.


Don’t be afraid to do. 
Don’t be afraid to ask questions. No question is dumb.


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## DougE

SmokinEdge said:


> Don’t be afraid to ask questions. No question is dumb.


As luck would have it, someone else usually already asked whatever dumb questions I may have had.


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## SmokinEdge

DougE said:


> As luck would have it, someone else usually already asked whatever dumb questions I may have had.


This is true Doug. But never hesitate to reach out. Either on the forum or PM. 
If I can help you either way, I’m happy to do so. As well as many other members here. Just ask.


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## DougE

SmokinEdge said:


> This is true Doug. But never hesitate to reach out. Either on the forum or PM.
> If I can help you either way, I’m happy to do so. As well as many other members here. Just ask.


Appreciate it. Curing is where I want to go next, and I believe Meijer has pork shoulder  for 99 cents a pound this coming week. Maybe I will take my first attempt at buckboard bacon.


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## SmokinEdge

We have a 5 day ham recipe also that is great for every ham option. Best ham you have ever eaten.


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## Lima Delta

Good morning all.
The bacon is presently soaking in water and I'll be test frying some of it in about an hour. When I was transferring it into the water this morning, I noticed the color of the uncured portion of that one slab is unchanged since I put it back into it's brine. Is it possible that the meat had already taken up all the cure by the time I took it out earlier, and that the additional cure time didn't make a difference?

Also, if after test frying, if there are uncured portions what are my options for salvaging the meat?
My plan was to cold smoke it all day, but is that safe if it hasn't completely cured?
Hot smoke until cooked then freeze?
Freeze then hot smoke until cooked?
Non of the above?


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## Lima Delta

SmokinEdge said:


> We have a 5 day ham recipe also that is great for every ham option. Best ham you have ever eaten.


I'd like to see that recipe please!


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> I'd like to see that recipe please!


Here you go.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/5-days-from-picnic-to-ham.296135/


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> Good morning all.
> The bacon is presently soaking in water and I'll be test frying some of it in about an hour. When I was transferring it into the water this morning, I noticed the color of the uncured portion of that one slab is unchanged since I put it back into it's brine. Is it possible that the meat had already taken up all the cure by the time I took it out earlier, and that the additional cure time didn't make a difference?
> 
> Also, if after test frying, if there are uncured portions what are my options for salvaging the meat?
> My plan was to cold smoke it all day, but is that safe if it hasn't completely cured?
> Hot smoke until cooked then freeze?
> Freeze then hot smoke until cooked?
> Non of the above?


I would cut one of the slabs in half the same direction you want to slice (a cross the grain) then slice some pieces from there. If cured the color (pinkish red) will get brighter in the pan as it heats up. If not cured the meat will turn grey.


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## thirdeye

And don't worry about different shades of pink or red on the same slices.  Myoglobin and fat amounts differ from muscle groups to muscle groups and will take the cure and color-up  differently.


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## SmokinEdge

Still waiting on that fry test?


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## Lima Delta

I soaked my belly pieces in cold water this morning for two hours, and I switched the water out after one hour. I also test fried some pieces cut from the center part of different slabs. It's certainly quite salty, but definitely still edible.  Whew!


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## Lima Delta

Here's a piece of belly fresh from it's bath:


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## Lima Delta

And here's after test frying:


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## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> I soaked my belly pieces in cold water this morning for two hours, and I switched the water out after one hour. I also test fried some pieces cut from the center part of different slabs. It's certainly quite salty, but definitely still edible.  Whew!


All “pink”?


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## SmokinEdge

We posted at the same time.
Looks great to me.
Now let’s get you a recipe put together before you do this again.


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## Lima Delta

SmokinEdge said:


> All “pink”?


I think so... There were a few pieces that were hard to tell... What do you think of this picture?


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## Lima Delta

SmokinEdge said:


> We posted at the same time.
> Looks great to me.
> Now let’s get you a recipe put together before you do this again.


Yeah, that's sounds great.
And thanks for all the help! It's much appreciated.


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## Steve H

Glad it worked out for you.


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## SmokinEdge

Yup, it’s cured. It would be completely grey if not. Just like a pork roast.


Lima Delta said:


> I think so... There were a few pieces that were hard to tell... What do you think of this picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 517552


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## SmokinEdge

You did a fine job, and the recipe is fine, we just need to cut the salt back to 1.5-2.0% and add 0.5-1.0% sugar to balance the salt. You will be much happier.


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## thirdeye

Lima Delta said:


> I soaked my belly pieces in cold water this morning for two hours, and I switched the water out after one hour. I also test fried some pieces cut from the center part of different slabs. *It's certainly quite salty*, but definitely still edible.  Whew!


You basically sampled what we called 'streak-o-lean' bacon, meaning cured belly that has not been smoked.  Smoking and mellowing can concentrate the saltiness. There is nothing wrong with additional soaking just to play it safe.


----------



## Lima Delta

thirdeye said:


> You basically sampled what we *called 'streak-o-lean' bacon,* meaning cured belly that has not been smoked.  Smoking and mellowing can concentrate the saltiness. There is nothing wrong with additional soaking just to play it safe.


Ok, I wondered if there was a name for this. I was saying to my son as we tasted it that we couldn't really call it bacon until after it was smoked.


----------



## Lima Delta

SmokinEdge said:


> You did a fine job, and the recipe is fine, we just need to cut the salt back to 1.5-2.0% and add 0.5-1.0% sugar to balance the salt. You will be much happier.


Thanks. I'm going to be making a bunch of notes in my "meat journal" so I won't forget next time. I sure find it helpful to keep a journal for this stuff. Same with gardening. I'd forget all kinds of things otherwise, then remember too late lol


----------



## SmokinEdge

Lima Delta said:


> Thanks. I'm going to be making a bunch of notes in my "meat journal" so I won't forget next time. I sure find it helpful to keep a journal for this stuff. Same with gardening. I'd forget all kinds of things otherwise, then remember too late lol


I have binder notebooks full of notes and such. Don’t use them much these days, but I’ll never get rid of them. I do dig through and reference them occasionally, they are priceless and can be handed down. Curing, sausage, charcuterie. All good info.


----------



## Cody_Mack

What a great thread; lots of knowledge and willingness to share. Love it!

Rick


----------



## Cody_Mack

Another knowledgeable and helpful member the other day helped me with a turkey brine, where the turkey had already been “enhanced” with its own solutions, maybe up to 9%. He also brought up the Equilibrium brine and explained it very well to me. A key note that I took away is, percentage of Cure, Salt, Sugar is based on total weight of product weight + water weight (water that it takes to cover in your brining container).

Then I get to realizing that I have also read about a wet cure where your quantity formula is based “per gallon of water”, and you are golden as long as that gallon that you brewed up will cover your product. And therefore the formulas do not factor the weight of the meat at all. Is this also correct?

Rick


----------



## DougE

Cody_Mack said:


> Then I get to realizing that I have also read about a wet cure where your quantity formula is based “per gallon of water”, and you are golden as long as that gallon that you brewed up will cover your product. And therefore the formulas do not factor the weight of the meat at all. Is this also correct?


That's how I understand Pop's brine to work. No need to weigh water and meat. Just mix the brine up, and long as it covers the meat, you're golden. That said, I am also confused as to how this method works the same as taking the weight of meat and water, and calculating from there to get your salt/sugar/cure#1 amounts.


----------



## SmokinEdge

Cody_Mack said:


> Another knowledgeable and helpful member the other day helped me with a turkey brine, where the turkey had already been “enhanced” with its own solutions, maybe up to 9%. He also brought up the Equilibrium brine and explained it very well to me. A key note that I took away is, percentage of Cure, Salt, Sugar is based on total weight of product weight + water weight (water that it takes to cover in your brining container).
> 
> Then I get to realizing that I have also read about a wet cure where your quantity formula is based “per gallon of water”, and you are golden as long as that gallon that you brewed up will cover your product. And therefore the formulas do not factor the weight of the meat at all. Is this also correct?
> 
> Rick


Enhanced meat is tricky, but workable.

As to the difference in equilibrium brine and something like “Pop’s brine” don’t get caught up in it all. Pick one or the other. They both work fine.


----------



## Cody_Mack

SmokinEdge said:


> As to the difference in equilibrium brine and something like “Pop’s brine” don’t get caught up in it all. Pick one or the other. They both work fine.



But I want to get caught up in it; I'm here to learn. I don't want fine, I want the best. Your comments in this thread are top-notch, so keep 'em coming, please.


----------



## DougE

SmokinEdge said:


> As to the difference in equilibrium brine and something like “Pop’s brine” don’t get caught up in it all. Pick one or the other. They both work fine.


What I think most of us just getting started with curing want to know is this. Pop's brine you just mix up and as long as you have enough liquid to cover the meat, you're good to go. Other wet curing recipes call for you to weigh the meat and liquid to cover it, and base everything on that. It seems like a contradiction to any of us who do not understand the difference between Pop's and other wet brine recipes.


----------



## SmokinEdge

Cody_Mack said:


> But I want to get caught up in it; I'm here to learn. I don't want fine, I want the best. Your comments in this thread are top-notch, so keep 'em coming, please.





DougE said:


> What I think most of us just getting started with curing want to know is this. Pop's brine you just mix up and as long as you have enough liquid to cover the meat, you're good to go. Other wet curing recipes call for you to weigh the meat and liquid to cover it, and base everything on that. It seems like a contradiction to any of us who do not understand the difference between Pop's and other wet brine recipes.



Ok. I’ll try to be as honest as I can. If I miss anything, let me know.

Curing meat effectively actually has a range to it. It’s not a set value, but does have minimum and maximum values. As long as you are within those parameters your meat will be cured. This is not voodo science, but actually very scientific but with a range.

To effectively cure meat, we need 50 parts per million of nitrite maximum allowable is 200ppm. this is accomplished with Cure #1 or Prague powder #1, all same. This cure salt contains 6.25% nitrite and 93.75% pure salt. It’s a standard here in the U.S. from here it’s all math to get to ppm, I can go over that if you wish, but for now we will deal with known values that give us known results.

Pop’s brine is a long story. This was actually his father’s recipe. He owned a butcher shop and cured meat. His philosophy was to brine meat longer with less salt and less nitrite than standard protocol. This would in theory produce a finished product that was more tender, more palatable ( less salt) that could be cooked immediately, not soaked in water prior to cooking, but rather purchase brought home and prepared for supper the same day. (1940’s) The local state USDA disagrees and demands brine testing every month. Of which he passes every test. He was tested this way for something like 20 years. The state kept a close eye, but Pop’s method was in fact safe And effective. This is basically a recipe of 1 gallon water, 1 cup salt and 2 cups sugar. One white and one brown, with 1 heaping Tablespoon of cure #1 (about 1 oz.)

USDA says we need 3.84oz of cure #1 to a gallon of water. So Pop’s is only about 1/4 the cure the USDA recommended. That was the problem for the government. (But was the point for Pop’s dad)

Pop’s brine though works, and works well and is safe. Many folks use it with wild success. I’ve used it and can attest to this fact.

When using pop’s brine, the process takes a bit more time. It’s the salt and nitrite concentration that dictates curing time. The stronger the shorter time, weaker is longer time.


----------



## DougE

SmokinEdge said:


> Ok. I’ll try to be as honest as I can. If I miss anything, let me know.
> 
> Curing meat effectively actually has a range to it. It’s not a set value, but does have minimum and maximum values. As long as you are within those parameters your meat will be cured. This is not voodo science, but actually very scientific but with a range.
> 
> To effectively cure meat, we need 50 parts per million of nitrite. this is accomplished with Cure #1 or Prague powder #1, all same. This cure salt contains 6.25% nitrite and 93.75% pure salt. It’s a standard here in the U.S. from here it’s all math to get to ppm, I can go over that if you wish, but for now we will deal with known values that give us known results.
> 
> Pop’s brine is a long story. This was actually his father’s recipe. He owned a butcher shop and cured meat. His philosophy was to brine meat longer with less salt and less nitrite than standard protocol. This would in theory produce a finished product that was more tender, more palatable ( less salt) that could be cooked immediately, not soaked in water prior to cooking, but rather purchase brought home and prepared for supper the same day. (1940’s) The local state USDA disagrees and demands brine testing every month. Of which he passes every test. He was tested this way for something like 20 years. The state kept a close eye, but Pop’s method was in fact safe And effective. This is basically a recipe of 1 gallon water, 1 cup salt and 2 cups sugar. One white and one brown, with 1 heaping Tablespoon of cure #1 (about 1 oz.)
> 
> USDA says we need 3.84oz of cure #1 to a gallon of water. So Pop’s is only about 1/4 the cure the USDA recommended. That was the problem for the government. (But was the point for Pop’s dad)
> 
> Pop’s brine though works, and works well and is safe. Many folks use it with wild success. I’ve used it and can attest to this fact.
> 
> When using pop’s brine, the process takes a bit more time. It’s the salt and nitrite concentration that dictates curing time. The stronger the shorter time, weaker is longer time.


Thanks for explaining. I think I get it now.


----------



## SmokinEdge

Now equilibrium cure is not far off from Pop’s. Here instead of volume measurements to make brine that we place random amount of meat weight into, we now measure everything In grams.

Meat weight, water weight, some even go so far as to include the weight of the salt, sugar and anything else included.

So we come up with a total weight of meat and water, and to that apply by percentage to weight our salt, sugar and cure #1. All weights included. Everything thing in the pool will, in time come to equilibrium, or balance, given enough time.

So if we have a 10# ham. We cover with 1 gallon water (8.33 lbs) we add those two weights to give 18#. Now we solve for salt, sugar and cure #1. Each having a different value Based on our preference.

Example:
Meat 10#
water 1 gallon (8.33#)
solve for ingredients.

18# times 454 (grams in a pound) =8172 grams total weight.
Salt at 2.0%
8172x 0.02=163.44 grams salt.

Sugar at 2.0%
8172x0.02=163.44 grams sugar.

Cure #1 at 0.25%
8172x0.0025= 20.43 grams

So we see here that cure#1 in the same gallon of water with the same pounds of meat is different but very close.

Pop’s 
about 27.0 grams (because that’s about all you can heap on a tablespoon)

Equalibrium cure #1 same meat and water is 20.43 grams cure #1 ( about 7.0 grams less cure #1.
also about half the salt and sugar.

Again this is about 1/4 the recommended nitrite by USDA. They both work though and are safe.

Ask more questions if you have them, but don’t make things complicated. It all works. I don’t use either of these methods because uptake in meat from a brine is random. I want to apply a known amount of everything to my meats, and I do so through injection or dry rub. YMMV.


----------



## exromenyer

Lima Delta said:


> Yeah, that's sounds great.
> And thanks for all the help! It's much appreciated.


Good Morning Guys,
Have you put a recipe together you are willing to share?  I've got some old ones, some old data, and I've used that Diggity Dog Calculator posted here and it's really accurate.  I'm just looking for some basic %'s based on 5 lb slabs (of course I'll weigh for exact weight) as I'm getting 20 lbs of pork belly this week and want to put something together.  I've typically done Cure #1 obviously, brown sugar, kosher salt, black pepper, onion powder, garlic powder..... Just looking for a little more simple as it relates to weights of each (tsp, tbsp etc)

Thank you in advance,
Tony


----------



## Cody_Mack

Thanks for the details 

 SmokinEdge
 ! It seems with equilibrium brine you have a little tighter control over salt content, and also sugar accordingly. I do also understand the "uptake in meat from a brine is random".

Rick


----------



## thirdeye

Cody_Mack said:


> ...Then I get to realizing that I have also read about a wet cure where your quantity formula is based “per gallon of water”, and you are golden as long as that gallon that you brewed up will cover your product. And therefore the formulas do not factor the weight of the meat at all. Is this also correct?
> 
> Rick





DougE said:


> That's how I understand Pop's brine to work. No need to weigh water and meat. Just mix the brine up, and long as it covers the meat, you're golden. That said, I am also confused as to how this method works the same as taking the weight of meat and water, and calculating from there to get your salt/sugar/cure#1 amounts.





SmokinEdge said:


> Enhanced meat is tricky, but workable.
> *As to the difference in equilibrium brine and something like “Pop’s brine” don’t get caught up in it all. Pick one or the other. They both work fine.*


Since we've discussed the commercial style 'degree' style of wet curing, then the equilibrium method of making a curing brine.... I was waiting for this discussion to move to Pop's Brine.  

I refer to curing brines like Pop's Brine as a 'universal' curing brine and here's why.  It's generally accepted in curing circles that 1 tablespoon to 3.5 tablespoons is an acceptable range of Cure #1 to mix into 1 gallon of water.  And when you think about it, you can only get so much meat into 1 gallon of curing brine.  (You can use more Cure #1, but the parts per million of sodium nitrite will get close to the upper recommended amounts.)  I like to recommend Pop's Brine for it's simplicity, and the fact it works with low amounts of Cure #1. 

As 

 SmokinEdge
 demonstrated with the calculation examples, small differences are to be expected from method to method.  But instead of asking "why are there differences?" consider the term 'proven and demonstrated' methods.   All three of the wet curing methods (degree, equilibrium, and Pop's Brine) can be proven with calculations, and have been demonstrated as workable for many years.  In other words they all get the job done.


----------



## gmc2003

I've skimmed thru the pages here, and noticed that the OP stated he used 1 tsp. per 5/lbs. I remember reading(I think 

 daveomak
) that not all measuring spoons are equal, and you should measure your cure instead of relying on the spoon.  When using cure #1 you want to use the correct amount. Not slightly over or under. Eliminating the guess work.

Chris


----------



## thirdeye

gmc2003 said:


> I've skimmed thru the pages here, and noticed that the OP stated he used 1 tsp. per 5/lbs. I remember reading(I think
> 
> daveomak
> ) that not all measuring spoons are equal, and you should measure your cure instead of relying on the spoon.  When using cure #1 you want to use the correct amount. Not slightly over or under. Eliminating the guess work.
> 
> Chris


Absolutely correct, volumetric measuring tools are notorious for inaccuracy.    Weighing is the best option for the Cure #1


----------



## SmokinEdge

exromenyer said:


> I've typically done Cure #1 obviously, brown sugar, kosher salt, black pepper, onion powder, garlic powder..... Just looking for a little more simple as it relates to weights of each (tsp, tbsp etc)


My dry rub for bacon is
1.5% sea salt
0.25% cure #1
Since cure #1 is 93.75% pure salt and 6.25% nitrite, my total salt combined is  all of 1.75%
sugar at 0.75%
I don’t like salty bacon nor do I care for sweet bacon. The 1.75% salt and 0.75% sugar balance nicely for my taste and most everyone that’s had it.

Flavor ingredients like granulated garlic or pepper have nothing to do with the cure and are preference in application. I eyeball these things until they look right.


----------



## SmokinEdge

gmc2003 said:


> I've skimmed thru the pages here, and noticed that the OP stated he used 1 tsp. per 5/lbs. I remember reading(I think
> 
> daveomak
> ) that not all measuring spoons are equal, and you should measure your cure instead of relying on the spoon.  When using cure #1 you want to use the correct amount. Not slightly over or under. Eliminating the guess work.
> 
> Chris


While I agree that cure #1 is best weighed. It is widely accepted that 1 level teaspoon to 5# meat is safe. Marianski mentions this many times. This value gives us, about, 156ppm. This is a workable and safe value of nitrite. However, the upper limit on nitrite per the USDA, is 200ppm. Marianski also states that about 50 ppm is the minimum value for nitrite to have any meaningful curing effect. There is room to work within these parameters.

Cure #1 needs to not exceed 200ppm and not go below 50ppm.

Pop’s brine is a good example. It’s all measured in Tablespoons and cups to a gallon of water. No weights, and this is acceptable. No matter 1# meat or 10# meat, and if you need more pickle to cover more meat, just mix up some more and pour over. That’s pretty cavalier, and not exact at all, but acceptable by all. Don’t get caught up in the science, rather use it. There was an actual lab test done on Pop’s brine and analysis of uptake of nitrite in belly vs. loin. I can post that if you like. It was done here on these forums. The results may surprise you how low the nitrite actually is, but was cured perfectly.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

thirdeye said:


> Okay fair enough.
> 
> SmokinEdge
> gave you a great rundown of the science behind the scene of curing brines and the Marianski book goes into more detail about the strengths of various brines as well as using charts and a salometer.
> 
> That said, equilibrium curing can also be used when making a curing brine.  You mentioned a 10% salt solution, and here is why curing brines need way more salt, sugar and cure than an equilibrium dry cure.  *The short answer is weight*.   Instead of basing salt, sugar and cure on meat weight (when dry curing).... *when brine curing you have water in the bucket, and in the equation. * A gallon of water for example is 8.3 pounds, so if you wanted to cure a 3 pound pork belly and it took 1 gallon of water to cover it,  *you have to calculate salt, sugar and cure on 11.3 pounds total*, not 3 pounds of meat weight.
> 
> In equilibrium curing, when you eventually find your sweet-spot recipe, say 1.7% salt, 2% sugar and 0.25% Cure #1 (or whatever you like for salt and sugar as the 0.25% of Cure #1 remains constant):
> 
> For dry curing, base your percentages on meat weight.
> For brine curing, base your percentages on meat weight + water weight.


thirdeye - question for you...I've done several batches using Pop's Wet Brine and want to give your dry brine a shot.  If I essentially follow your %'s, what differences in saltiness/taste would you expect?  

Thanks!


----------



## thirdeye

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> thirdeye - question for you...I've done several batches using Pop's Wet Brine and want to give your dry brine a shot.  If I essentially follow your %'s, what differences in saltiness/taste would you expect?
> 
> Thanks!


This is an excellent question, and a tough one.  If you have followed the evolution of Pop's Brine (which I did long before actually joining this forum) you will note that he was using granular salt (table salt) and the measurements were in cups per one-gallon of water. Later on he experimented with lower salt amounts, and lower sugar amounts too.   *I have some notes calling for 1/3 cup to 1 cup of salt per one-gallon of water, that is a huge range to choose from.*  And at one point I recall some experiments with Splenda.  Anyways the bottom line (reading between the lines) is that the 'heaping tablespoon' of Cure #1 per one-gallon remained constant.  *So before answering your question on saltiness we would need to know how YOU mix your Pop's Brine.*

Here is something else to chew on.... I picked the example percentages in the post you quoted out of thin air. * My personal dry cure percentages for salt and sugar are 1.5% and 1% respectively. * And, I have made my personal adjustments to Pop's guidelines, and I would think mine is in the 1% to 1.2% salt.   
All that said, I do have a dry cure bacon article HERE.
And a Pop's Brine article HERE.
Give those a read and see if they shed any light on your question, because both wet and dry methods work. Everyone has their reasons for using one or the other.  Looking forward to your next questions.


----------



## DougE

I find 1.5% salt in my dry brine to be about perfect (about 1.75% total salt including the salt in the cure#1). I'm not a heavy salt user, and the amount I'm using gives a just salty enough finished product, no soaking or any of  that needed after curing. I did a test fry on the first batch, but don't bother anymore.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

thirdeye said:


> This is an excellent question, and a tough one.  If you have followed the evolution of Pop's Brine (which I did long before actually joining this forum) you will note that he was using granular salt (table salt) and the measurements were in cups per one-gallon of water. Later on he experimented with lower salt amounts, and lower sugar amounts too.   *I have some notes calling for 1/3 cup to 1 cup of salt per one-gallon of water, that is a huge range to choose from.*  And at one point I recall some experiments with Splenda.  Anyways the bottom line (reading between the lines) is that the 'heaping tablespoon' of Cure #1 per one-gallon remained constant.  *So before answering your question on saltiness we would need to know how YOU mix your Pop's Brine.*
> 
> Here is something else to chew on.... I picked the example percentages in the post you quoted out of thin air. * My personal dry cure percentages for salt and sugar are 1.5% and 1% respectively. * And, I have made my personal adjustments to Pop's guidelines, and I would think mine is in the 1% to 1.2% salt.
> All that said, I do have a dry cure bacon article HERE.
> And a Pop's Brine article HERE.
> Give those a read and see if they shed any light on your question, because both wet and dry methods work. Everyone has their reasons for using one or the other.  Looking forward to your next questions.


I followed the recipe in the link you had for Pop's Brine - nothing weighed, just used standard measuring cups.  I've always made 2-3 gallons of the brine, and then added some peppercorns, garlic, and some other spices, always using Kosher salt as I only started doing this in 2021.  I am not sure how much of a difference those made given they were small amounts in several gallons of water.  I let the belly sit for 14 days, dried out overnight, and then cut into manageable pieces.  From there, I'd put whatever dry rub I made or felt like and smoked a piece for about 6 hours.  I never found it salty, and honestly, they always came out quite tasty :)

This time, I figured I'd try something different, and the dry/wet debate seems to have been going on as long as the fat side up/down debate.  I was intrigued by rubbing honey over the belly before adding the dry cure, so wanted to give that a shot.


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> I find 1.5% salt in my dry brine to be about perfect (about 1.75% total salt including the salt in the cure#1). I'm not a heavy salt user, and the amount I'm using gives a just salty enough finished product, no soaking or any of  that needed after curing. I did a test fry on the first batch, but don't bother anymore.


Although I add cracked pepper during the cure, and after the rinse.... for some things I still add some pepper to one face of the slices I'm frying, or add some sugar and cayenne when I make pig candy, or maybe BBQ rub to the bacon for ABT's. Even if I under-salted a batch, or was serving bacon to someone that likes additional salt, I could do that before frying just like I do when cooking fresh side pork.


----------



## thirdeye

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> I followed the recipe in the link you had for Pop's Brine - nothing weighed, just used standard measuring cups.  I've always made 2-3 gallons of the brine, and then added some peppercorns, garlic, and some other spices, always using Kosher salt as I only started doing this in 2021.  I am not sure how much of a difference those made given they were small amounts in several gallons of water.  I let the belly sit for 14 days, dried out overnight, and then cut into manageable pieces.  From there, I'd put whatever dry rub I made or felt like and smoked a piece for about 6 hours.  I never found it salty, and honestly, they always came out quite tasty :)
> 
> This time, I figured I'd try something different, and the dry/wet debate seems to have been going on as long as the fat side up/down debate.  I was intrigued by rubbing honey over the belly before adding the dry cure, so wanted to give that a shot.


Well, there you go. The little tweaks here and there, or some signature aromatics are things that make the method more personal.  I've not heard of adding honey to the meat before the cure, so let us know how it performs in the bag.  Like, does it dissolve or disappear after a few days?  I have heard of brushing or spraying the bacon with honey water (or maple syrup water) while smoking.  One spice I did play with was fenugreek, which presents a maple flavor.  I didn't care for it, but some people use it.


----------



## DougE

On the last one I did, I dusted the meat with coarse black pepper and granulated garlic after applying the curing rub. There was some difference in flavor over just doing the cure/salt/sugar, but not a huge one


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> On the last one I did, I dusted the meat with coarse black pepper and granulated garlic after applying the curing rub. There was some difference in flavor over just doing the cure/salt/sugar, but not a huge one


A friend buys bacon from custom butcher/smokehouse shop when he visits family each year. One option is 'Garlic' flavored, and it's very pronounced.  I think they must use some sort of injection.... maybe made with garlic extract, or they might cook their own garlic juice?


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> A friend buys bacon from custom butcher/smokehouse shop when he visits family each year. One option is 'Garlic' flavored, and it's very pronounced.  I think they must use some sort of injection.... maybe made with garlic extract, or they might cook their own garlic juice?


I'm guessing injection, cause the meat just isn't going to pull much flavor in beyond the surface from a topical application. Salt and cure will be pulled in, but spices are going to pretty much remain on the surface.


----------



## Sven Svensson

SmokinEdge
 , 

 DougE
 , 

 thirdeye
 , You folks continue to impress me with your grasp of brining. This entire thread is a goldmine of information and explanation. I loved the historic info on Pop’s brine and how/why it was developed. 

Just did my first real “dry brine by weight” today on what I’m hoping will be buckboard bacon and also some capicola. I’m too embarrassed to admit to the dry brining method I’ve been using for years. It will suffice to say I’ll be going through a lot less kosher salt for sure. I could never get the salt levels right but they were close. 

My regular scale didn’t do grams in small enough increments so I had to hit Amazon for a tiny scale. The problem is now Amazon thinks I’m some kind of a drug dealer and is making some interesting purchasing suggestions. Ha!


----------



## SmokinEdge

Sven Svensson said:


> SmokinEdge
> ,
> 
> DougE
> ,
> 
> thirdeye
> , You folks continue to impress me with your grasp of brining. This entire thread is a goldmine of information and explanation. I loved the historic info on Pop’s brine and how/why it was developed.
> 
> Just did my first real “dry brine by weight” today on what I’m hoping will be buckboard bacon and also some capicola. I’m too embarrassed to admit to the dry brining method I’ve been using for years. It will suffice to say I’ll be going through a lot less kosher salt for sure. I could never get the salt levels right but they were close.
> 
> My regular scale didn’t do grams in small enough increments so I had to hit Amazon for a tiny scale. The problem is now Amazon thinks I’m some kind of a drug dealer and is making some interesting purchasing suggestions. Ha!


You will enjoy that dry rub (brine) this process applies the exact ingredients you want, and as a plus, slightly dries the meat in terms of moisture content. This concentrates the flavors slightly and give an incredible finished flavor. Please post your results. Enjoy.


----------



## DougE

Sven Svensson said:


> SmokinEdge
> ,
> 
> DougE
> ,
> 
> thirdeye
> , You folks continue to impress me with your grasp of brining. This entire thread is a goldmine of information and explanation. I loved the historic info on Pop’s brine and how/why it was developed.
> 
> Just did my first real “dry brine by weight” today on what I’m hoping will be buckboard bacon and also some capicola. I’m too embarrassed to admit to the dry brining method I’ve been using for years. It will suffice to say I’ll be going through a lot less kosher salt for sure. I could never get the salt levels right but they were close.
> 
> My regular scale didn’t do grams in small enough increments so I had to hit Amazon for a tiny scale. The problem is now Amazon thinks I’m some kind of a drug dealer and is making some interesting purchasing suggestions. Ha!


The other two know way more than me, but glad to share what I have come to know.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> You will enjoy that dry rub (brine) this process applies the exact ingredients you want, and as a plus, slightly dries the meat in terms of moisture content. This concentrates the flavors slightly and give an incredible finished flavor. Please post your results. Enjoy.


Will do - I am going to start everything tonight (including maybe starting with a light honey coating before applying the cure and spice mixes unless you think it would stop the curing process from proceeding?) so we'll see.  If I am correct, the dry brines can be ready in as little as 7 days, but I may let it go longer until the following weekend, so I'll end up with 11 or 12 days.  Since I have two 5lb pieces, I'll do a different spice mix on each and see if one is tastier than the other.  Stay tuned...


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Will do - I am going to start everything tonight (including maybe starting with a light honey coating before applying the cure and spice mixes unless you think it would stop the curing process from proceeding?) so we'll see.  If I am correct, the dry brines can be ready in as little as 7 days, but I may let it go longer until the following weekend, so I'll end up with 11 or 12 days.  Since I have two 5lb pieces, I'll do a different spice mix on each and see if one is tastier than the other.  Stay tuned...


I’ve done several over the years with honey, or pure maple syrup trying to build flavors. The syrup ends up just sweet, no maple. The honey ends sweet as well but had a aftertaste I didn’t care for, could not put my finger on exactly what the taste was though. I don’t like sweet bacon and was just trying these things for other friends, I’ve since given up on the syrup or honey experiments, but in my on going research, if I were to try them again I would apply the honey after the curing but before smoking. Some even dilute it a bit and run it through a spray bottle. Just let the bacon hang in the heat 1-2 hours (120-130*) to dry before starting smoke.

Good luck, and I hope you post up your results. The honey won’t mess with the cure, and the time frame of 10-12 days is good. Remember to turn the bag over every day or every other day.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

It has begun...plan to flip every other day and be ready to smoke on Feb 5

6.1 lb piece:
56g kosher salt, 42g brown sugar, 7g prague
8g garlic powder, 8g onion powder, 2g black pepper, 2g cayenne pepper

5.2 lb piece
48g kosher salt, 36g brown sugar, 6g prague
8g adobe honey rub, 5g honey stinger rub


----------



## Sven Svensson

GrumpyGriller
 I just put my bacon in the fridge yesterday. We’re about due the same general time. It’s my first time using the weight method so I’m hoping I don’t mess this up. I also used it on buckboard bacon instead of belly. Two new things at once. We’ll see how it goes.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

Sven Svensson said:


> GrumpyGriller
> I just put my bacon in the fridge yesterday. We’re about due the same general time. It’s my first time using the weight method so I’m hoping I don’t mess this up. I also used it on buckboard bacon instead of belly. Two new things at once. We’ll see how it goes.


Good luck to both of us.  My Pop's wet cure was very good.  It'll be fun to compare and see what I like more, or they're both good, just different


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> It has begun...plan every other day and be ready to smoke on Feb 5
> 
> 6.1 lb piece:
> 56g kosher salt, 42g brown sugar, 7g prague
> 8g garlic powder, 8g onion powder, 2g black pepper, 2g cayenne pepper
> 
> 5.2 lb piece
> 48g kosher salt, 36g brown sugar, 6g prague
> 8g adobe honey rub, 5g honey stinger rub
> 
> View attachment 523416


Looks good. The second one will have a bit higher salt than 2.0% because the rub has salt in it, otherwise I’m in for the ride. Looking forward to the final.


----------



## DougE

I just started another buckboard a little while ago with the usual 0.25% cure#1, 1.5% salt and 0.75% sugar, and like last time, dusted it with granulated garlic and coarse black pepper after applying the cure mix. I expect the results to be about the same as usual, which may seem boring, but I like boringly repeatable results.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> Looks good. The second one will have a bit higher salt than 2.0% because the rub has salt in it, otherwise I’m in for the ride. Looking forward to the final.


BTW, I have them on a rack on top of cookie pan to let air circulate a bit. It's all wrapped in StretchTite wrap. I thought no when I flip the first time I'll wrap the pieces individually and then put on the rack, otherwise I'd have to rewrap a lot


----------



## DougE

I seal each piece in a gallon ziplock, and put them in foil pans. A lot of time, but not always, you'll get some liquid coming out of the meat at first, but it gets reabsorbed during the process. You want to keep that liquid and meat together since there will still be some cure in the liquid. That right there is the reason you keep overhauling it every day or so. It helps it cure evenly, but also helps to make sure all your cure ends up in the meat.


----------



## Sven Svensson

SmokinEdge said:


> I’ve done several over the years with honey, or pure maple syrup trying to build flavors. The syrup ends up just sweet, no maple. The honey ends sweet as well but had a aftertaste I didn’t care for, could not put my finger on exactly what the taste was though. I don’t like sweet bacon and was just trying these things for other friends, I’ve since given up on the syrup or honey experiments, but in my on going research, if I were to try them again I would apply the honey after the curing but before smoking. Some even dilute it a bit and run it through a spray bottle. Just let the bacon hang in the heat 1-2 hours (120-130*) to dry before starting smoke.
> 
> Good luck, and I hope you post up your results. The honey won’t mess with the cure, and the time frame of 10-12 days is good. Remember to turn the bag over every day or every other day.


I’ve tried so many ways to impart maple flavor into bacon, including using extract. The results are “meh” at the most. I still find if I want maple bacon flavor the best method is to just drizze it with  maple syrup right on the plate. Saves a lot money that way, too.


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> A lot of time, but not always, you'll get some liquid coming out of the meat. You want to keep that liquid and meat together since there will still be some cure in the liquid.


I add a couple of tablespoons of purified water into the bag to get the process off to a good start.


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> I add a couple of tablespoons of purified water into the bag to get the process off to a good start.


I haven't done that .... usually the salt is already starting to pull moisture out by the time I get it bagged.


----------



## SmokinEdge

Sven Svensson said:


> I’ve tried so many ways to impart maple flavor into bacon, including using extract. The results are “meh” at the most. I still find if I want maple bacon flavor the best method is to just drizze it with  maple syrup right on the plate. Saves a lot money that way, too.


Store bought maple bacon is stitch pumped. Meaning it’s injected. They use who knows what chemicals to create that flavor of maple, but rest assured, it’s not actually maple.
Actually, all store bought bacon is pumped for cure, and USDA limits them to 120ppm nitrite. Just so you know.


----------



## SmokinEdge

thirdeye said:


> I add a couple of tablespoons of purified water into the bag to get the process off to a good start.


Frozen meat gives less moisture than fresh never frozen meat. When we do belly that we (fresh side) cut from the carcass, they make good moisture. But a Costco, or Sam’s belly makes less moisture.


----------



## DougE

SmokinEdge said:


> Store bought maple bacon is stitch pumped. Meaning it’s injected. They use who knows what chemicals to create that flavor of maple, but rest assured, it’s not actually maple.
> Actually, all store bought bacon is pumped for cure, and USDA limits them to 120ppm nitrite. Just so you know.


Also why you'll notice some water cooking out of store bacon. Pumping also adds some water weight, and that gives them more weight with less bacon.


----------



## SmokinEdge

DougE said:


> Also why you'll notice some water cooking out of store bacon. Pumping also adds some water weight, and that gives them more weight with less bacon.


Exactly correct. This is why dry rub cure is so much more flavorful, in the process we are extracting moisture, not adding. This concentrates the cure and pork flavor. Plus the meat renders better in the pan and is actually less greasy.


----------



## Sven Svensson

SmokinEdge said:


> Store bought maple bacon is stitch pumped. Meaning it’s injected. They use who knows what chemicals to create that flavor of maple, but rest assured, it’s not actually maple.
> Actually, all store bought bacon is pumped for cure, and USDA limits them to 120ppm nitrite. Just so you know.


You can totally tell it’s a chemical and not anything real. Store bought maple bacon is horrid. I was hoping real maple syrup would do the trick but I would imagine if that did work someone would have made a recipe since maple syrup and bacon were invented.


----------



## Lawyer Bob

SmokinEdge said:


> This also can be a problem, although not huge. If you are going to do this, place the bellies fat side to fat side. Salt, which carries or pushes the cure(nitrite) moves much slower through fat than through muscle. So keeping the meat side exposed to the cure is best. Curing is all about thickness of meat (if not injected) so 1/4” per day. A belly that is 1 1/2” thick with fat on one side will cure in about 6-7 days. 10 days is a nice buffer. If salt % is equilibrium, then 2 weeks is fine or up to 4 weeks. Just remember to leave the meat side exposed to cure.


Is it necessary to put the cure/seasoning mix on both the fat and meat sides or is it ok to put it on the meat side only since fat does not cure?


----------



## SmokinEdge

Lawyer Bob said:


> Is it necessary to put the cure/seasoning mix on both the fat and meat sides or is it ok to put it on the meat side only since fat does not cure?


I would still apply cure mix to the fat side. Salt and nitrite move through fat slower (because fat has a really low water content) but it still moves through and cure the meat layer under the fat. Look at the profile of belly bacon. It’s streaked with fat and meat layers. They all get cured. So the process is just slower when going through fat vs muscle.


----------



## thirdeye

Lawyer Bob said:


> Is it necessary to put the cure/seasoning mix on both the fat and meat sides or *is it ok to put it on the meat side only since fat does not cure?*


Here is the deal.... fat does not contain myoglobin so it does not cure per se. But, salting fat has a tenderizing/flavorizing effect (of sorts) on fat. So the salt in Cure #1 and the additional salt in your curing mixture will accomplish this to some degree.  There is one kicker, which is time. As seen below, to get the full benefit of salting fat can take 20 to 30 days on thicker fat back.... but pork belly fat is not that thick.   








If you have ever dry cured a slab of bacon for 6 or 7 days, it is fully cured.  But compare that to a slab that has been dry cured for 14 or 15 days and you will tell a difference in the overall flavor,  and you will notice the texture of the fat is more desirable.  This is really obvious on salt pork or streak-o-lean bacon. 

*Getting back to your question:* With skin removed, I take 1/2 of the required amount of cure for a slab of bacon and put it on the fatty face and all 4 sides.  The other 1/2 of the cure goes on the meaty face.


----------



## Lawyer Bob

thirdeye said:


> Here is the deal.... fat does not contain myoglobin so it does not cure per se. But, salting fat has a tenderizing/flavorizing effect (of sorts) on fat. So the salt in Cure #1 and the additional salt in your curing mixture will accomplish this to some degree.  There is one kicker, which is time. As seen below, to get the full benefit of salting fat can take 20 to 30 days on thicker fat back.... but pork belly fat is not that thick.
> 
> View attachment 524039
> 
> 
> If you have ever dry cured a slab of bacon for 6 or 7 days, it is fully cured.  But compare that to a slab that has been dry cured for 14 or 15 days and you will tell a difference in the overall flavor,  and you will notice the texture of the fat is more desirable.  This is really obvious on salt pork or streak-o-lean bacon.
> 
> *Getting back to your question:* With skin removed, I take 1/2 of the required amount of cure for a slab of bacon and put it on the fatty face and all 4 sides.  The other 1/2 of the cure goes on the meaty face.


Thank you, very helpful.


----------



## Lawyer Bob

SmokinEdge said:


> I would still apply cure mix to the fat side. Salt and nitrite move through fat slower (because fat has a really low water content) but it still moves through and cure the meat layer under the fat. Look at the profile of belly bacon. It’s streaked with fat and meat layers. They all get cured. So the process is just slower when going through fat vs muscle.


Got it, thanks.


----------



## Lawyer Bob

thirdeye said:


> Here is the deal.... fat does not contain myoglobin so it does not cure per se. But, salting fat has a tenderizing/flavorizing effect (of sorts) on fat. So the salt in Cure #1 and the additional salt in your curing mixture will accomplish this to some degree.  There is one kicker, which is time. As seen below, to get the full benefit of salting fat can take 20 to 30 days on thicker fat back.... but pork belly fat is not that thick.
> 
> View attachment 524039
> 
> 
> If you have ever dry cured a slab of bacon for 6 or 7 days, it is fully cured.  But compare that to a slab that has been dry cured for 14 or 15 days and you will tell a difference in the overall flavor,  and you will notice the texture of the fat is more desirable.  This is really obvious on salt pork or streak-o-lean bacon.
> 
> *Getting back to your question:* With skin removed, I take 1/2 of the required amount of cure for a slab of bacon and put it on the fatty face and all 4 sides.  The other 1/2 of the cure goes on the meaty face.


Also, which book is that?


----------



## SmokinEdge

Lawyer Bob said:


> Also, which book is that?


Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages: by, Stanley Marianski.

I can’t recommend this book highly enough.
The pick Thirdeye posted was from page #521.


----------



## Lawyer Bob

SmokinEdge said:


> Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages: by, Stanley Marianski.
> 
> I can’t recommend this book highly enough.
> The pick Thirdeye posted was from page #521.





SmokinEdge said:


> Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages: by, Stanley Marianski.
> 
> I can’t recommend this book highly enough.
> The pick Thirdeye posted was from page #521.


Thanks!  I‘ll pick it up.   I've been eyeballing their Meat Smoking & Smokehouse Design.  Is that one good, too?


----------



## DougE

I went with the Kindle version, myself. I can read it on any of my PCs, or my phone, and can bookmark pages I want to return to quickly. I will probably end up buying it in book form eventually, but I do like the convenience of being able to bookmark stuff for quick access with the Kindle version. That, and I had access to the book immediately.

Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages: by, Stanley Marianski.


----------



## SmokinEdge

Lawyer Bob said:


> Thanks!  I‘ll pick it up.   I've been eyeballing their Meat Smoking & Smokehouse Design.  Is that one good, too?


It’s excellent. There is a ton of information about smoking generally plus how smokehouse configurations work (there is a lot of ways to build a smoker) ins and outs of smoking methods, all of Marianski’s books are straight forward tried and true information, no opinion or b.s
If you get into sausages,(  the Home Production book goes into this) pick up his book Polish Sausages. It’s authentic recipes from the government of Poland. All the ins and outs of sausage. I have maybe six of his books, and all are a must for farther processing meats, he covers canning as well.


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> I went with the Kindle version, myself. *I can read it on any of my PCs, or my phone,* and can bookmark pages I want to return to quickly. I will probably end up buying it in book form eventually, but I do like the convenience of being able to bookmark stuff for quick access with the Kindle version. That, and I had access to the book immediately.
> 
> Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages: by, Stanley Marianski.


I like the keyword search feature on Kindle books (I have a couple of Marianski's sausage books on my Kindle Fire)  or other technical reference books I have in PDF format on my laptops.   I'm curious how you can read a Kindle book on your PC?


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> I'm curious how you can read a Kindle book on your PC?


Go to your Amazon acct. content and devices, books, then to the right of each book, click more actions, read now. this will open it up in Kindle cloud reader. The book will open up in a browser tab. any bookmarks or whatever you do here can be synced across all devices.


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> Go to your Amazon acct. content and devices, books, then to the right of each book, click more actions, read now. this will open it up in Kindle cloud reader. The book will open up in a browser tab. any bookmarks or whatever you do here can be synced across all devices.
> 
> View attachment 524091


I'll play around with that, thanks.


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> I'll play around with that, thanks.


The cloud reader interface is kind of clunky, but it actually works pretty well once you get used to it. It's more or less like reading a PDF


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> I'll play around with that, thanks.


----------



## thirdeye

DougE said:


> View attachment 524093


So, this is a screen shot from one of the e-books?  I'm assuming Marianski as it has the signature 18g of salt per kg?


----------



## DougE

thirdeye said:


> So, this is a screen shot from one of the e-books?  I'm assuming Marianski as it has the signature 18g of salt per kg?



Yea, it's Marianski Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages. I just happened to have had his book open on the cloud reader already.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> I’ve done several over the years with honey, or pure maple syrup trying to build flavors. The syrup ends up just sweet, no maple. The honey ends sweet as well but had a aftertaste I didn’t care for, could not put my finger on exactly what the taste was though. I don’t like sweet bacon and was just trying these things for other friends, I’ve since given up on the syrup or honey experiments, but in my on going research, if I were to try them again I would apply the honey after the curing but before smoking. Some even dilute it a bit and run it through a spray bottle. Just let the bacon hang in the heat 1-2 hours (120-130*) to dry before starting smoke.
> 
> Good luck, and I hope you post up your results. The honey won’t mess with the cure, and the time frame of 10-12 days is good. Remember to turn the bag over every day or every other day.



I am pulling the belly out today. With the wet brine, I let it sit out and dry overnight, rubbed with spices and then smoked.

Since I dry cured with spices, I was still going to leave it in the fridge overnight, but is it necessariy to add additional rub...what do you guys think?


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> I am pulling the belly out today. With the wet brine, I let it sit out and dry overnight, rubbed with spices and then smoked.
> 
> Since I dry cured with spices, I was still going to leave it in the fridge overnight, but is it necessariy to add additional rub...what do you guys think?


How much liquid was in the bag? How much of your seasoning was washed away during the curing process?
With 1.5% salt, I often don’t don’t rinse the bacon, I just pull it from the bag, paper towel dab it and on to a wire rack/cookie sheet into the fridge to dry then smoke. The seasonings from the cure process are not overly powerful. If you want more garlic or pepper or whatever, it’s best to apply that. As soon as it comes out of the bag damp so it will stick. Then let it form the pellicle (dry)


----------



## GrumpyGriller

That makes sense... Very little liquid; maybe 1/2 cup or less. 

Pulling now andvwill season a bit more... smoke tomorrow if the ice thaws off my cover


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> That makes sense... Very little liquid; maybe 1/2 cup or less.


That’s about right, and this removal of moisture from the meat is what separates dry cure from brine. This concentrates the flavors. It’s gooood.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

...
	

		
			
		

		
	










Pulled and in fridge for final overnight with additional spices - same as used in the cure mix.


----------



## SmokinEdge

The seasoning once smoked then sliced has a hard time coming through because the surface is all that has the spice, so sliced thin or 1/8” there just isn’t much area of seasoning to taste. I’ve tried all sorts of different flavors. All just barely come through. The balance of salt and sugar along with smoke are dominant, to me. Capsaicin from Chile sometimes comes through. Anyway, you are in for a treat. I’ll be watching for your final and your thoughts.


----------



## thirdeye

SmokinEdge said:


> I just pull it from the bag, paper towel dab it and on to a wire rack/cookie sheet *into the fridge to dry* then smoke.





TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Pulled and *in fridge for final overnight* with additional spices - same as used in the cure mix.


12 to 24 hours for pellicle formation is always a good investment as it sort of sets the stage for the color, and smoky flavor.  And some post-smoking blooming/mellowing time is good too.   I have a battery powered 5" fan I can set in the fridge for air circulation (for muti-tasking it also helps sous vide meats dry).  On low this thing is still going after 16 hours.  Shown is a corned chuck roast, but you get the idea for salmon or bacon.


----------



## SmokinEdge

thirdeye said:


> 12 to 24 hours for pellicle formation is always a good investment as it sort of sets the stage for the color, and smoky flavor.  And some post-smoking blooming/mellowing time is good too.   I have a battery powered 5" fan I can set in the fridge for air circulation (for muti-tasking it also helps sous vide meats dry).  On low this thing is still going after 16 hours.  Shown is a corned chuck roast, but you get the idea for salmon or bacon.
> View attachment 524657


I have a fan much like that and use it to speed things up when I’m pressed for time.


----------



## thirdeye

SmokinEdge said:


> I have a fan much like that and use it to speed things up when I’m pressed for time.


Mrs ~t~ makes noodles and pasta which need to air dry, so these kind of fans speed that up too.


----------



## SmokinEdge

thirdeye said:


> Mrs ~t~ makes noodles and pasta which need to air dry, so these kind of fans speed that up too.
> View attachment 524684


When I was a boy, my mom made egg noodles. She rolled out the dough then rolled that up and sliced noodles like you would a cinnamon roll. They were so good raw. If she didn’t police it pretty close, I’d have half of them eaten before supper. Boy she would get mad at me and chase me from the house with her rolling pin. GET OUT! She would yell as I cruised for the brush line. Those were good times for sure.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> How much liquid was in the bag? How much of your seasoning was washed away during the curing process?
> With 1.5% salt, I often don’t don’t rinse the bacon, I just pull it from the bag, paper towel dab it and on to a wire rack/cookie sheet into the fridge to dry then smoke. The seasonings from the cure process are not overly powerful. If you want more garlic or pepper or whatever, it’s best to apply that. As soon as it comes out of the bag damp so it will stick. Then let it form the pellicle (dry)


Pulled, additional seasoning, and smoked ... Haven't cut it yet


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Pulled, additional seasoning, and smoked ... Haven't cut it yet
> View attachment 524876
> View attachment 524877
> View attachment 524878


That’s going to be delicious. Looks real nice.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> That’s going to be delicious. Looks real nice.


Thanks...will post when sliced!!!  And thanks for everyone's help and suggestions!  My pastrami is due out in a few days, so stay tuned


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Thanks...will post when sliced!!!  And thanks for everyone's help and suggestions!  My pastrami is due out in a few days, so stay tuned


My knife would have accidentally cut off a corner, but I’m weak. Bacon


----------



## DougE

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Pulled, additional seasoning, and smoked ... Haven't cut it yet
> View attachment 524876
> View attachment 524877
> View attachment 524878


Yea, I wouldda hacked a corner off and tried it. I'm weak, also, especially when it comes to bacon. My wife was cooking some up for her breakfast yesterday, and, well, wasn't really watching it and it got a little burnt. Even burnt bacon smells good, lol. And she did eat her burnt bacon.


----------



## Sven Svensson

GrumpyGriller
 Looks like we were both on the same tracks with our bacon projects. Your’s looks great. I’ve never put extra seasoning on mine because I’ve been afraid it would be too salty. You used the weighing method, right? I’m wondering if that method makes it fine to season. If so, I might give that a shot as it looks great.


----------



## DougE

Seasoning on bacon doesn't impart a whole lot of flavor in the final product. The seasoning pretty much remains on the surface of the meat, so when you slice it, you are just getting the seasoning from around the edge of each slice. It's not a bad thing, just don't expect to get a super hit of flavor from what seasonings you use.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

Ok...here's the final product :) These were two different bellies from BJ's so I am guessing to some extent that explains the color difference, but I'd defer to more experienced dry briners out there.  They are both very tasty, the AH being more on the sweeter side as expected, but I very much like the CP version as I tend to like spicier concotions!


----------



## SmokinEdge

That’s some fine looking belly.
Now I’m curious as to your thoughts vs. the brine cure, and how did the spices actually come through. How is the salt level?

Looks like a great job.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

SmokinEdge said:


> That’s some fine looking belly.
> Now I’m curious as to your thoughts vs. the brine cure, and how did the spices actually come through. How is the salt level?
> 
> Looks like a great job.


Thanks for all the help!!!

I heated a couple of pieces of each and the salt level was fine for me, I don't dump salt on food in general, but I do use it for seasoning.  I certainly taste some flavor, though it's hard to tell how much of it is coming from the "inside" of the slice vs. the "outside" where it was applied.  This is one of the reasons I don't slice too thin!

I think the flavor profile in general was stronger than the wet cure, maybe because it was all on the belly, rather than in lots of solution?  When I pulled the bellies out to smoke, I don't think I had more than a 1/4 cup of liquid in either bag, so not sure what that meant in terms of how well it cured?

So - I can see that both wet and dry brine methods have their merits, though I can see the benefits of being able to control the flavoring better with the dry brine.

I can assure you that none of this will go to waste - starting tonight on top of a smoked homemade burger :)!


----------



## Sven Svensson

Those look great. They are all really meaty pieces which is amazing. Enjoy the fruits of all that great work.


----------



## DougE

Fine looking bacon, there. I'm sure it tastes even better than it looks.


----------



## GrumpyGriller

A hearty THANKS to this forum as usual - can't wait for my pastrami cure to be done this week :)


----------



## DougE

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> A hearty THANKS to this forum as usual - can't wait for my pastrami cure to be done this week :)


There are a number of BBQ forums out there, but when it comes to curing or sausage making, this place is tops for the knowledge the membership has.


----------



## SmokinEdge

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> Thanks for all the help!!!
> 
> I heated a couple of pieces of each and the salt level was fine for me, I don't dump salt on food in general, but I do use it for seasoning.  I certainly taste some flavor, though it's hard to tell how much of it is coming from the "inside" of the slice vs. the "outside" where it was applied.  This is one of the reasons I don't slice too thin!
> 
> I think the flavor profile in general was stronger than the wet cure, maybe because it was all on the belly, rather than in lots of solution?  When I pulled the bellies out to smoke, I don't think I had more than a 1/4 cup of liquid in either bag, so not sure what that meant in terms of how well it cured?
> 
> So - I can see that both wet and dry brine methods have their merits, though I can see the benefits of being able to control the flavoring better with the dry brine.
> 
> I can assure you that none of this will go to waste - starting tonight on top of a smoked homemade burger :)!


Dry curing pulles moisture out, concentrating the flavors, where brining relies on “uptake” of solution and give a different flavor. The amount of liquid pulled from the meat is dependent on how fresh the meat is and how long and how many times frozen. Freezing ruptures some of the cell structures and that moisture is released when thawed. I get the most liquid with belly that I pull myself from the hog and cure it fresh never frozen.

As to the color difference in your pieces, the amount of color is all dependent on the presents of myoglobin. The more the muscle works the more myoglobin. What we call pork belly is actually mostly “fresh side”. There is a portion below the rib cage that is the true belly, then the rest of the meat is from where the spare ribs would be right up to the front shoulder. The ribs are skinned out and the slab left is called fresh side. Whole “bellies” are from ~10to 12pounds per side. So a whole hog will have 20- 24 pounds of fresh side for bacon.

Edit to add:
When the curing process starts, high salt concentration on the surface causes the moisture in the meat to rush out to balance the salt. In turn the salt moves towards the center of the meat because it is low in sodium. Once these two things balance or come to equilibrium, the moisture in the bag will actually be reabsorbed into the meat, again it’s about coming to equilibrium. This is chemistry. If you leave the belly long enough it will absorb most all the liquid back up, 
But you can also do dry rub curing where you place the rubbed belly on a grate for the entire time and let the liquid drain away never to be absorbed. No bag just the belly on a grate with a pan to catch the liquid. This is closer to the old world way. This causes the belly to lose more weight percentage and concentrate flavor even more.


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## TNJAKE

Putting a brisket flat into a dry cure tomorrow for beef bacon


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## SmokinEdge

TNJAKE said:


> Putting a brisket flat into a dry cure tomorrow for beef bacon


Atta boy Jake. Cowboy bacon is good stuff.


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## TNJAKE

SmokinEdge said:


> Atta boy Jake. Cowboy bacon is good stuff.


Should be tasty it's something I've had on the list for quite a while. There will be a thread in probably 20 days lol


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## SmokinEdge

I really enjoy smoked and sliced brisket with eggs and potatoes. Cure the brisket and smoke it or not and it’s delicious too. For a bacon type application for breakfast or on a burger or sandwich, I don’t use the aromatics in the cure. Just salt, sugar and cure. Then give it a nice garlic based rub before smoking.


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## TNJAKE

SmokinEdge said:


> I really enjoy smoked and sliced brisket with eggs and potatoes. Cure the brisket and smoke it or not and it’s delicious too. For a bacon type application for breakfast or on a burger or sandwich, I don’t use the aromatics in the cure. Just salt, sugar and cure. Then give it a nice garlic based rub before smoking.


This will be just the usual suspects for cure. 14 days. Pepper and garlic afterwards for a day. Cold smoke 12 hours probably 6hrs a day with rest in between. Then a dry in fridge for a couple days. Slicer time


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## SmokinEdge

TNJAKE said:


> This will be just the usual suspects for cure. 14 days. Pepper and garlic afterwards for a day. Cold smoke 12 hours probably 6hrs a day with rest in between. Then a dry in fridge for a couple days. Slicer time


Delicious!


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## thirdeye

TheGrumpyGriller said:


> So - *I can see that both wet and dry brine methods have their merits,* though I can see the benefits of being able to control the flavoring better with the dry brine.


_That's the beauty... of the charcutie_.  Heheheee. 

I prefer dry curing on bacon (and fish), and one thing I consider is the handling and the fridge space. I can manage several bags of dry cure bacon, but would be pushing fridge room if wet curing the same number of bellies. Same for fish, I can stack multiple sides of dry cured fish but might need 2 brine buckets for the same amount. 
All that said, I thoroughly enjoy trading my goods in order to sample techniques I don't use.  Crazy 'eh?



TNJAKE said:


> Putting a brisket flat into a dry cure tomorrow for beef bacon


Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to your results. Here is a previous thread of mine on beef bacon. I really like it but the hardest thing for me was getting the thickness dialed in, and not overcooking it. Baking it -vs- frying is something to check out.   Anyhoo, a little overcooking is about the same as sampling jerky, so it's all good.


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## m0rie

All of the recipes I have looked at for dry curing have you pat the cure mixture into the pork loin then put it into a bag with any extra cure mix.  I might have done something wrong but it seemed like that made a fairly large mess (on the plate I was using) and I was not confident I actually got the required amount of cure mix on the loin.  For the other two pieces I switched to just putting the loin in the bag first and dumping the measured cure mix into the bag, sealing and mixing the loin around in the bag until it looked fully coated.  Seemed significantly easier but I worry that skipping the initial pat down is going to be an issue?  Next day all three bags seem to have pulled an even amount of liquid when I went to massage and turn the bags.


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## SmokinEdge

m0rie said:


> All of the recipes I have looked at for dry curing have you pat the cure mixture into the pork loin then put it into a bag with any extra cure mix.  I might have done something wrong but it seemed like that made a fairly large mess (on the plate I was using) and I was not confident I actually got the required amount of cure mix on the loin.  For the other two pieces I switched to just putting the loin in the bag first and dumping the measured cure mix into the bag, sealing and mixing the loin around in the bag until it looked fully coated.  Seemed significantly easier but I worry that skipping the initial pat down is going to be an issue?  Next day all three bags seem to have pulled an even amount of liquid when I went to massage and turn the bags.



You are fine either way. Don’t get nervous or over think the process. Cure in general has a range to it. It’s not an exact part per million or weight but rather a minimum of 50ppm to a maximum of 200ppm. Our recipes follow 156ppm. So even if you lose a little cure mix you are still good. It’s the going over or to much cure that gets you in trouble. Over haul (turn every day) the bag and ride for the required time and the results will be fantastic.


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