# New member and needs help with busted electric smoker.  PID???



## jreamsnyder (Jan 2, 2019)

Hey guys, 

New member and my very first post.

About a year ago I was gifted my first smoker, a Smoke Hollow Electric Smoker, Model 3016DEW, with a 1500W heating element.  It worked great for about a year and I was having a blast and turning out great BBQ... until it broke.  I noticed during one cook that it would get up to temp, and then slowly fall, and then fluctuate all over the place.  I called Smoke Hollow CS, to find out that (of course) it was just barely out of warranty, but the suspect parts were either the heating element or the control box, and both were sent out to me.  I installed both new units and have the same issue.

Now, I'm quite mechanically handy and even slightly electrically handy.  When the replacement parts weren't working, I busted out the multimeter and started testing.  Coming from the power cord is the normal hot, neutral, and ground.  The hot and neutral go to the circuit board, and the ground goes to ground, so I tested them all. The ground is good. The heating element is good.  The hot wire shows a healthy 120V.  The problem is the hot lead coming from the circuit board to the heating element.  When the controller indicates "heating" (i.e. the hot lead from the circuit board to the heating element should be "hot"), I occasionally get a nice 120V, and sometimes I get zero.  Doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to it.  I've tried both controllers and the issues is the same.  I've been exhaustive in testing this and can only conclude that something in the actual circuit board is messed up.

Anyway, in lieu of trying to obtain and pay for a new circuit board and install that, I've been hearing about these PID controllers.  Essentially, you scrap the exiting controller and circuitry, you hard wire the heating element to your power (so that if it's plugged it, the element is "on"), and have a PID controller in the middle with a thermocouple that senses the temp and turns on/off the heating element accordingly. Is my thinking on this correct???  And if so, could someone point me in the right direction as far as hardware to move forward.  I'm merely looking for a temp controller, not a timer or meat probe or anything like that, just a temp controller. Any suggestions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED as I have a bunch of ribs and pork butts in my freezer that are laughing at me right now.

OR... am I wasting time and money and should just simply get a propane or pellet unit?  I love the simplicity of the electric in that I only have to set a temp and walk away, but if this is going to be a constant issue, I'm wondering if I should go more "primitive".

Thanks for reading my long post!


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## tbrtt1 (Jan 2, 2019)

Welcome to the best BBQ forum on the inter-webs. 

This very humble opinion is mine and in now way reflects the views of this station or broadcast network, but for what you would pay for a nice PID you could get a new smoker. Lots of folks on this forum post some seriously good Q on the Masterbuilt Electric Smokers, AKA MES. Then there are the Smokin-It and other Cook Shack clones which are a bit pricier in the electric smoker category. There are many others too. 

Of course, if you are electrically handy  you can easily make a PID yourself, as some have done. Do some research on this forum as there is more good information on this site than you can shake a stick at. Use the search function. It is your best friend.


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## dr k (Jan 2, 2019)

If your smoker has a safety snap disc over heat switch it may be the culprit,  failing and opening the circuit ttoo soon at a low temp to the element after initial heat up. If you can, bypass it and run a test and see if it stays up to temp.


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## SonnyE (Jan 2, 2019)

OK, all is far from lost here.
All electric smokers can be converted easily to PID controlled.
I use two methods. My Bypass mode with my MES 30. Or my abandoned method with a MES 40 Gen I, I was given.
My Bypass Mode is fully explained here.
The MES 40 isn't worth fussing with to me, so I merely took the black wire from the cord, and the output of the element relay (aka: Black Box) on the circuit board, and spliced the two wires together. Then plug the smokers cord into my Inkbird PID box and away it goes.
My reason for using an external control is for cold smoking below 100°.
But now it allows full function of the MES 40. Which I wanted for cold smoking and hanging larger pieces of meat in.

I would caution you to not mess with the Neutral wiring. The Neutral (white wire) is the over temperature device to control the element from overheating the smoker, and the possibility of it causing a fire.

The Inkbird linked above is a °C type controller. If you desire a unit that does both C, or F, the Itc-106 would be the item.
You will have to assemble this PID. I got a NEMA 4 Junction box from my local Lowe's Store, and built my enclosure, with an outlet on the back for the smokers to plug into.

The Inkbird PID I used has 0° C to 400°C capability with the provided thermocouple. Which is way wide of the smokers we use requirements.

You can do it. I can help if you need it. Just PM. ;)


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## SecondHandSmoker (Jan 2, 2019)

On your 3016DEW, where is the cabinet temp sensor located?


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## daveomak (Jan 2, 2019)

Maybe the male prongs on the cord lose contact...  I've seen that happen....  
Try spreading them...  sometimes they look like solid brass...  NOT...  they are usually all split...


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 2, 2019)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> On your 3016DEW, where is the cabinet temp sensor located?


It is located on top, it protrudes from the bottom of the control box into the cabinet.


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## SecondHandSmoker (Jan 2, 2019)

jreamsnyder said:


> It is located on top, it protrudes from the bottom of the control box into the cabinet.



Thank you.  Okay, we can eliminate that since they sent you a new controller. 
I was curious since on my Smoke-Tronix, the thermocouple is located in the upper left hand corner and is not "built in" to the controller. 
Sounds like you have isolated the issue down to the circuit board.  
If you haven't already done so, then maybe another call to customer service is needed.


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## river100 (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm with SonnyE, changing to a PID is very easy especially since you have some wiring skills.

I'd say the hardest part is building the box. It's a pain to cut the hole for the PID haha.
I think the high prices ppl mention are the plug and play pre built PID add ons.
If you want to give it a try with little expense you can get a cheap 110vac PID, an SCR w/heatsink, and a box for the controller pretty cheap on Amazon or Ebay.
Although it does raise the price, some companies sell "PID ready" boxes with the holes alreay cut out. I used one from Auberins for a PID project.
All you need from the smoker is the element, power cord and over temp switch if it has one.
SCRs are rated by Amps *with the recommended heat sink.*  For that reason and the fact that I don't trust the ratings on cheap Chinese electronics I always use a higher amp rating with a heat sink. Another thing that has been mentioned quite a few times is use temp rated spade connectors to the element with temp rated wire.  I bought mine at a local appliance parts place.  Add a main 110vac power fuse to the in coming power and use ring terminals on the non spade connections if you can.  Rate the fuse to the power cord wire size and use the same size or larger wire for all of the high current connections.
If you go with a PID make sure your thermocouple is reading air temp, not the smoker walls.  Your smoker is not insulated so this especially applies to it.  You would also get better results by using "Auto-tune" twice, once to get it to temp, and a second time to auto-tune when the smoker is at your normal cooking temp.  Auto tune is a program written by the manufacturer.  They don't all tune the same way so some trial and error may follow.
PS, stick with F readings for your PID, gives you a little finer control.


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 4, 2019)

river100 said:


> I'm with SonnyE, changing to a PID is very easy especially since you have some wiring skills.
> 
> I'd say the hardest part is building the box. It's a pain to cut the hole for the PID haha.
> I think the high prices ppl mention are the plug and play pre built PID add ons.
> ...



Guys thanks so much for the replies!  So I’ve got some further questions. Put plainly, what should I buy?  I have no problem wiring up and constructing a unit vs a pre-built one. 

If I’m correct, I need:

A PID with temp probe (would prefer it reads on in degrees F)

A solid state relay with heat sink

A box to house the elements

All the necessary wires / connectors to hook everything up

The original cabinet, heating element, and power cord. 

Am I missing anything?  I’m a little clueless on what PID and relay / heatsink to order. Again, nothing fancy, just a temp controller. No timer or meat probe or anything like that. 95% of the time I fired up the smoker it was for pork ribs or pork butts. I’m confident I can wire up and assemble the unit. Is it realistic to get away with this for the $50 range?

Thanks again for all the help!


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## daveomak (Jan 4, 2019)

Check out Holly2015 chamber build...
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/curing-chamber-diy-how-to-w-pictures.281390/


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 6, 2019)

So after poking around, I found the Inkbird ITC-106. I prefer this to the ITC-100, simply because it can read out in degrees F. 

Looks like you get the controller, a 40A SSR, a K sensor thermocouple, bracket and manual. Am I on the right track? Also, there are a few variation. Do I want the RH, which has a relay output, or the VH, which has an SSR output?

Once parts are in hand, I construct a box, wire everything up, and go on to calibrating, right?

Any guidance in product selection is appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 6, 2019)

Forgot to mention it also comes with a heat sink for the relay


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## SonnyE (Jan 6, 2019)

You are on the right track, as long as you order the right package.
Because ITC-106 has many variants. So you want to be sure of what you order.
My recommendation would be specifically this:


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 6, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> You are on the right track, as long as you order the right package.
> Because ITC-106 has many variants. So you want to be sure of what you order.
> My recommendation would be specifically this:


Thanks for the reply: I don’t think you’re recommendation pasted in correctly


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## SonnyE (Jan 6, 2019)

You are on the right track if you get the right package....
There are several ways to go wrong...

I would recommend this one: 
Inkbird PID ITC-106VH Digital PID Temperature Controller + K SENSOR + 40a SSR US

Because I've seen several packages. The Solid State Relay allows the controller to ramp up the output of the SSR, which controls the element. It tapers off as it approaches your set point. And tapers on as the temperature is dropping.
That is quite different than a mechanical relay which is all on, or all off, and causes overruns, which gives wide temperature swings. The simplistic OEM control for the MES series is a mechanical relay. 

The K type sensor is rated for 0 to 400 degrees C (32 to 752 degrees F). Which is far wide of the MES requirements.

No changes to the programming are needed. The controller works fine right out of the box. Assemble and go.


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## SonnyE (Jan 6, 2019)

jreamsnyder said:


> Thanks for the reply: I don’t think you’re recommendation pasted in correctly



Your right it didn't. My computer needs rebooted after a day of ABC Ya, and Grandchildren programmers. ARGH!


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 12, 2019)

Hello,

I got the Inkbird ITC-106 and goodies in yesterday. 

I could use some assistance on how to wire it up. 

The existing power cord has a hot, neutral, and ground. Do the hot and neutral go to the PID 110 input and the ground go to chassis? The output of the PID goes to the input of the SSR, and then do I just hook up the output of the SSR to the leads of the heating element? Some of this makes sense to me but some doesn’t. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. 

I’m also assuming I just bypass all the factory circuitry, right?

Also forgot to mention, the model of smoker is Smoke Hollow 3016DEW. 1500 watt element. 

Thanks!


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## hb99 (Jan 12, 2019)

I researched smokers for about 6 months before I opted on my WSM.

The main reason why I didn't go for an electric was that (I read) that many of the elements only last about 2 years.  

Now, I have to admit that you guys are echelons above my electrical experience and knowledge, but if it can't be fixed you can can always convert it into a cold smoke box.


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## jreamsnyder (Jan 12, 2019)

OR should I add a female and male plug socket to the box for power in and power out? So power out would go to the element (I’d just use my existing power cord) and power in would just be an extension cord from a wall outlet.


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## SonnyE (Jan 12, 2019)

jreamsnyder said:


> OR should I add a female and male plug socket to the box for power in and power out? So power out would go to the element (I’d just use my existing power cord) and power in would just be an extension cord from a wall outlet.



Check your Conversations, (IM's PM's) I sent you an extensive explanation.
Come to think about it, ALL my conversations are lengthy. Unless it's a punch line....)


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## theSane (Feb 10, 2019)

I am in the same boat.  I see the replacement parts, but am unsure of how to wire the power.  Could you please describe how the SSR and INKBird should be connected?


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## AP514 (Feb 11, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> Check your Conversations, (IM's PM's) I sent you an extensive explanation.


How about Sharing :)
Kind of interested in this one..;)


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## SonnyE (Feb 11, 2019)

AP514 said:


> How about Sharing :)
> Kind of interested in this one..;)



Hi, Guys, I just happened to bumbel into this. Please PM (Conversations) so you are sure it will yank my chain and get my attention. Glad to help, if I can.

I brought up the online manual for the ITC-106

Yes, cord wires:
Wht - Terminal 10 of ITC. (T-10)
Blk - Terminal 9 of ITC. (T-9)
Grn - Ground to chassis, receptacle if used, carries through to all grounding needs. Never switch or fuse any ground conductors.
*This is the 120V AC input to the ITC-106.*

Do you have a 2-wire, or a 3 wire Thermocouple (Temperature sensor)?
Wire it according to Page 5, Subheading #4, of the manual.
If it is a two wire, be aware that T-4 & T-5 have a jumper tieing the two together. (Mine was a two wire)
If it has 3 wires (Red, Blue, Blue) wire it per the 3 wire.
*This tells the ITC the temperature inside your smoker.*

Solid State Relay (SSR) - The Input side of this device has a Positive (Terminal 3), and a Negative (Terminal 4).
Terminal 8 of the ITC connects to Terminal 3 (+) of the SSR.
Terminal 6 of the ITC connects to Terminal 4 (-) of the SSR.
*This is the control for the SSR from the ITC.






*
This part is important, Because we are keeping the Over Temperature device of the MES in the heater element circuit, we want the hot leg (Black wire) ITC T-9, and the SSR T-1 connected. (NOT T-10/T-1 as shown.)
At this point I want you to look at this segment of this video.
You can follow George's advice fully if you'd like, it works. He just looks at it slightly differently than I do.
The bottom line is we want the ITC and SSR to control a receptacle that we can plug in our MES into.

(This also allows us to use our ITC with SSR to operate other things we'd like to control with temperature sensing. In my case, I have two MES's, a 30 and a 40. The 40 is destined to be a cold smoker only. It's big enough to hang meat in. So it is getting totally simplified. (already has) )
But, by cord connecting the modified OEM MES wiring, the over Temperature device stays in the smokers circuit to protect it from running away.
An important safety issue.

OK, you chew on this for a while, and come back with any questions.
It takes a bit for PM's to circulate. I can't always be in front of my computer.
Double check each wire, and over all. Because electronics are *un*forgiving.
You cross anything up and when you power it up, POP. At the speed of light is is junk.
Do one wire at a time, make sure it is correct, then double check it. You'd be amazed how easily a mistake can occur.
And always, ALWAYS! *Unplug anything* before you touch it.

Sonny


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## river100 (Feb 11, 2019)

Sonny
You left nothing to the imagination which is actually the way it should be when it comes to electricity :)


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## SonnyE (Feb 11, 2019)

river100 said:


> Sonny
> You left nothing to the imagination which is actually the way it should be when it comes to electricity :)



Thanks River.
I'm here if any questions should come up.

Mine gave me a bit of a Hummm.... yesterday.
Apparently I poked the button that switched it to a slightly different mode. (SET)
I was wondering why it wasn't ramping up. I finally figured it out. Mine needs to be in ALT to give the right output. I had it in RUN. And in RUN, it wasn't, well, running right. 
I connected a low wattage LED light to the output (Receptacle I use).
I found that quite interesting watching it pulse with the output. And as the temperature is reached, you can visibly see the pulses taper down.
I always enjoyed being able to literally see electricity working. The pulses of the light are the same as the pulses to the heater element. Once I realized it needed to be in ALT mode, everything was working fine again.
Doh!


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## theSane (Feb 20, 2019)

Thanks for the help. Everything is wired up and installed in a grey electrical junction box and bolted back to the smoker. 

Tested it out for a few hours.  Had to adjust the thermostate reading by 30° and now it is accurate.  The only oddity is that whatever temo I set, this seems to keep the smoker temp 8° below.  Once it gets close, it does not keep the element on enough to reach the target temp.  I can set it to 250° or 225° and the temp will stop at 242° or 217°.

Thankfully that is not a showstopper.  You guys got me running again and I appreciate it.


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## SonnyE (Feb 20, 2019)

JosephParker said:


> Among the products mentioned on the list, which one is the best? https://startbbq.com/best-electric-smokers/



There is no "Best" Joseph. There is "What fits your needs and budget?"

Best to me would be a Smokin It, Or a The Sausage Maker Smokehouses.
But that is just My Opinion.
And at my vintage, I'm not apt to make such a commitment.
Shave 10-20 years off my dirty butt, and I'd be ordering instead of writing you.


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## SonnyE (Feb 20, 2019)

theSane said:


> Thanks for the help. Everything is wired up and installed in a grey electrical junction box and bolted back to the smoker.
> 
> Tested it out for a few hours.  Had to adjust the thermostate reading by 30° and now it is accurate.  The only oddity is that whatever temo I set, this seems to keep the smoker temp 8° below.  Once it gets close, it does not keep the element on enough to reach the target temp.  I can set it to 250° or 225° and the temp will stop at 242° or 217°.
> 
> Thankfully that is not a showstopper.  You guys got me running again and I appreciate it.



I'm not sure if you can adjust the output to correct the error. But you should be able to.
As long as the element, and safety Thermodisc are in working order, using a PID to run your smoker can be straight forward.


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## river100 (Feb 20, 2019)

How did you adjust the thermostat reading was that a setting in the PID controller ?


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## river100 (Feb 24, 2019)

@ SonnyE

When I read your post about watching the output pulses of the PID controller it reminded of all the times I stood in front of my PID controlled hot air plastic welders watching the output signal.
 For these I use proportional control of the elements. Instead of pulsing the element it gives a linear power output
according to the input signal in real time, kind of like a PID controlled light dimmer. I've looked into the output of the air heaters and watched the elements
go from a bright orange glow down to a steady softer orange once they reached temp. You need a "phase angle" power controller to do this.

 So if used for a smoker once the PID settled down it would end up giving only the power output needed to hold the
internal smoker temp. It would be interesting to see what the element looks like once it settles down to the set temp.

You don't really need proportional control for slow reacting heating elements like those in a smoker but it would still be cool to have.

I actually bought a used  phase angle power controller off ebay, $25, so I could build a proportional controller to run my MES. Only reason I never built it is PID controllers with linear output cost more and I'm cheap :).  The cheapest Pro version of one with 0-10v or 4-20ma output is the SOLO PID $ 130.00, lets you see the output and has tons of features that i'm used to. I've found cheaper ones but they are limited in features and SOLO PIDs have spoiled me.  Like the ability to adjust the thermocouple offset temp and a host of other things. I use auto tune and then tweak from there.

Now, since my MES element died maybe I should go ahead and bite the bullet and do this project.  My initial plan was
to build both a pulsed controller and a proportional one to see which one was more efficient.  I already have the parts for
a pulsed SCR setup, just need a PID with 0-10v output and a box to finish it.


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## river100 (Feb 24, 2019)

Linear power control.


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## river100 (Feb 24, 2019)

Shows PID output percentage, bottom read out.  One of the features is that you can program the MAX output. So in this case I have cut the max output to around 60 %of what it can put out. So what you see is 78.5 % of the 0-60 % of the controllers max output by program.
Yup, I'm a electronics geek, but hey, it's what I do.


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## campfire218 (Mar 12, 2019)

SonnyE said:


> Hi, Guys, I just happened to bumbel into this. Please PM (Conversations) so you are sure it will yank my chain and get my attention. Glad to help, if I can.
> 
> I brought up the online manual for the ITC-106
> 
> ...


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## campfire218 (Mar 12, 2019)

Scratching my head. I converted mine and completely gutted all Masterbuilt wiring. Even rewired the snap disc in the back. When I plug it in, it goes through a test, then says 1p on the display. The alm light is lit and the pid is unresponsive. Won't do anything when I push buttons. I read somewhere that polarity for the power in doesn't matter. I've tried reversing them and gotten the same result. Is this Inkbird unit susceptible to cold? My garage isn't heated and is around 29° F


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## river100 (Mar 12, 2019)

I am not familiar with that brand. I looked at manual and didn't see it as trouble code. But that doesn't mean it is not a trbl code.
I would unhook all wiring to the PID except the 110vac for power and try again.  Also if you have a meter check continuity of the thermocouple. 
Then if good, then add it to the PID, so you only have thermocouple and power.


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## campfire218 (Mar 12, 2019)

river100 said:


> I am not familiar with that brand. I looked at manual and didn't see it as trouble code. But that doesn't mean it is not a trbl code.
> I would unhook all wiring to the PID except the 110vac for power and try again.  Also if you have a meter check continuity of the thermocouple.
> Then if good, then add it to the PID, so you only have thermocouple and power.


I think I may have it figured out. Had to leave for work before final testing. I think the problem may have been the wiring to the snap disc. I removed the back of the smoker and ran high temp oven wire. I wasn't paying enough attention when removing the factory wiring and ran the hot lead from the relay to the snap disc, then back to the heating element.

I was scouring the files in SMF and read that the neutral wire needs to run to the over temp snap disc. I reversed these connections and the pid appeared to start working. The run light was on and I had 122v on terminal 3 of the relay. Tomorrow morning I will reconnect the hot lead to the element and test.

Hoping it works because I have a batch of jerky marinating.


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## campfire218 (Mar 12, 2019)

river100 said:


> I am not familiar with that brand. I looked at manual and didn't see it as trouble code. But that doesn't mean it is not a trbl code.
> I would unhook all wiring to the PID except the 110vac for power and try again.  Also if you have a meter check continuity of the thermocouple.
> Then if good, then add it to the PID, so you only have thermocouple and power.


I think I may have it figured out. Had to leave for work before final testing. I think the problem may have been the wiring to the snap disc. I removed the back and ran high temp oven wire. I wasn't paying enough attention when removing the factory wiring and ran the hot lead from the relay to the snap disc, then back to the heating element. 

I was scouring the files in SMF and read that the neutral wire needs to run to the over temp snap disc. I reversed these connections and the pid appeared to start working. The run light was on and I had 122v on terminal 3 of the relay. Tomorrow morning I will reconnect the hot lead to the element and test. 

Hoping it works because I have a batch of jerky marinating.


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