# Boston Butt  Danger Zone



## brickguy221 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ok, I admit I am one of the dumbest tools in the shed if not the dumbest.

I have never heard about the "Danger zone" on smoking Pork Butts until today and am completely lost about it. In trying to understand what's been said in some posts today as well as reading Bear's instructions for smoking a Pork Butt and the "Danger Zone" I am going to have to ask a question or 2 or 3...

What is the Danger Zone? ...  If I put a Boston Butt in Smoker and put a Maverick probe in it at the same time what does it matter? In other words I do put a Maverick Probe in Tri-Tips, Pork Loins, Pork Roasts, Steaks, Roasts, and etc and have never got sick or died from doing this, so what makes Pork Butts different? ... Sorry, but I don't understand what is dangerous....

Am I not to put a probe of any kind in the Boston Butts at all for the first 4 or more hrs?

What if it is 5-6 hrs and the temp is 150- 160* and then put a probe in, is that too late or does that ruin it?

Hopefully someone here can help this 78 year old man understand ... sigh ...


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 3, 2015)

The rule is 40-140 in four hours. With small
Cuts like Tri tip, steaks, pork chops, you will be done way before that. With larger roasts, hams, etc it takes a lot longer. If you put the probe in at the 4 hour mark on those cuts you should read 140 or above. 

If you smoke at higher temps, you really shouldn't have a problem with any of it.


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## smokingearl (Oct 3, 2015)

That's just a few people's opinions. There is no danger in probing meat of any kind when raw with a meat thermometer. That's the official stance of the FDA and I couldn't find anywhere on the Internet besides some on this site that says not to probe raw meat with a thermometer. I know two chefs of 40 years and they both have done so since the invention of oven meat thermometers. I've even been doing it myself for 25 years without incident. You'll even find instructions with some meat thermometers about its use and probing the raw meat. Do what you want, I'm just giving you the info I have obtained researching the subject.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/234199/when-to-probe


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## walta (Oct 3, 2015)

Does this belong in the Food Safety Forum?

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/181/food-safety

Walta


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## brickguy221 (Oct 3, 2015)

walta said:


> Does this belong in the Food Safety Forum?
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/181/food-safety
> 
> Walta


NO ... No one would see it there as few if any people use that forum. In fact I doubt many people even know that forum exists, including myself. Needs to be here for all to see and respond to.


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## brickguy221 (Oct 3, 2015)

SmokingEarL said:


> That's just a few people's opinions. There is no danger in probing meat of any kind when raw with a meat thermometer. That's the official stance of the FDA and I couldn't find anywhere on the Internet besides some on this site that says not to probe raw meat with a thermometer. I know two chefs of 40 years and they both have done so since the invention of oven meat thermometers. I've even been doing it myself for 25 years without incident. You'll even find instructions with some meat thermometers about its use and probing the raw meat. Do what you want, I'm just giving you the info I have obtained researching the subject.
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/234199/when-to-probe


Thanks for the link Earl. It appears that the majority believe you can put the probe in the meat anytime. I know I have never had a problem with probing Pork Loins, thus the reason I am questioning if no problem on Pork Loins and other Meats, why a problem on Boston Butts???  I haven't ever done a Boston Butt, but want to one day and want to be sure I am doing it the right way and if probing at the beginning is dangerous, I want to know why.... If it isn't dangerous, I will probe it when I put it in the Smoker.


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## inkjunkie (Oct 4, 2015)

Have a friend that is a USDA inspector. Told him about the 40-140-4 hour thing folks preach here.in addition to not probing the meat tIL it hit's 140*..he told me he has never heard of such a thing. 
Goofy question....and not trying to be a smart azz....let's say this 40-140-4 hour, don't probe until the meat is over 140* thing is true...and you probe the meat and it is only at 125* would you throw it away?


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 4, 2015)

inkjunkie said:


> Have a friend that is a USDA inspector. Told him about the 40-140-4 hour thing folks preach here.in addition to not probing the meat tIL it hit's 140*..he told me he has never heard of such a thing.
> Goofy question....and not trying to be a smart azz....let's say this 40-140-4 hour, don't probe until the meat is over 140* thing is true...and you probe the meat and it is only at 125* would you throw it away?



http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf


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## smokingearl (Oct 4, 2015)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf


. 

No mention of NOT probing raw meat. And actually not even stating anything about cooking to 140 in 4 hours either. 


Leaving food out too long at room temperature can cause bacteria (such as Staphylococcus aureus, Salmonella Enteritidis, Escherichia coli O157:H7, and Campylobacter) to grow to dangerous levels that can cause illness. Bacteria grow most rapidly in the range of temperatures between 40 °F and 140 °F, doubling in number in as little as 20 minutes. This range of temperatures is often called the “Danger Zone.”

Then says when roasting meat or poultry to cook at a minimum temperature of 325. Does this mean smoking is unsafe since its don't at typically 225-275? I seriously doubt this since well, it's done millions of times and electric smokers Don't typically even go to 325 lol

"Raw meat and poultry should always
be cooked to a safe minimum internal temperature (see graphic). When roasting meat and poultry, use an oven temperature no lower than 325 °F."


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## brickguy221 (Oct 4, 2015)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf


Article says nothing about probing Pork Butts or any other meat before they reach 140*.


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## smokingearl (Oct 4, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> Article says nothing about probing Pork Butts or any other meat before they reach 140*.



That would be because it's perfectly safe to do so.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Oct 4, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> Article says nothing about probing Pork Butts or any other meat before they reach 140*.



Didn't post the article for probing. Posted it because it was mentioned that the inspector friend has never heard of the 40-140 rule. This article is right from the USDA inspectors reference materials. 

The theory on probing before or after is that if you break the surface of the meat  prior to it being cooked you compromise the sterile interior environment of the meat. Which can or may cause the spread of the bacteria that is on the outside of the meat to the interior. 

I used to probe pork chicken turkey etc prior to cooking. I no longer do that and error on the side of caution. Better to be safe than sorry when cooking for large groups. Besides convenience there's no reason to probe prior to cooking.


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## brickguy221 (Oct 4, 2015)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> The theory on probing before or after is that if you break the surface of the meat prior to it being cooked you compromise the sterile interior environment of the meat. Which can or may cause the spread of the bacteria that is on the outside of the meat to the interior.


So does this "theory" refer to all meats, or only Pork Butts??? 

I've never smoked a Pork Butt nor a Brisket, but have smoked many other meats and have probed every one of them from the start and have never suffered any ill effects yet ... ( knock on wood, maybe??? ... lol )


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## smokingearl (Oct 4, 2015)

dirtsailor2003 said:


> Didn't post the article for probing. Posted it because it was mentioned that the inspector friend has never heard of the 40-140 rule. This article is right from the USDA inspectors reference materials.
> 
> The theory on probing before or after is that if you break the surface of the meat  prior to it being cooked you compromise the sterile interior environment of the meat. Which can or may cause the spread of the bacteria that is on the outside of the meat to the interior.
> 
> I used to probe pork chicken turkey etc prior to cooking. I no longer do that and error on the side of caution. Better to be safe than sorry when cooking for large groups. Besides convenience there's no reason to probe prior to cooking.



It a theory that has never been proven to cause even one case of food born illness. If it wasn't safe, there would be warnings on every meat thermometer made, restaurants wouldn't be able to do it.


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## brickguy221 (Oct 4, 2015)

SmokingEarL said:


> It a theory that has never been proven to cause even one case of food born illness. If it wasn't safe, there would be warnings on every meat thermometer made, restaurants wouldn't be able to do it.


That makes sense to me. In fact I have never heard of it until I joined this forum.


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## inkjunkie (Oct 4, 2015)

These probing meat discussions remind me so much of the infamous "what oil should I use in my old car threads"...and this coming from someone who started one of them...
If no one hears from me shortly it is because I stuck the thermometer probe in the butt I did yesterday.....while it was still on the counter....and got sick from doing so...lol...


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## dr k (Oct 4, 2015)

I was more concerned that the USDA inspector friend was not familiar with the 40-140 in 4hrs. rule but then I refrained and thought that Inspections usually deal with checking to see that hot foods are kept hot and cold foods are kept cold and the kitchen/refrigerators etc.are kept clean in a sanitary, cross contaminated free, pest free manner according to the USDA regulations.  If the USDA recommends a minimum IT of whole muscle meat of 145*F for four legged animals and inspects for it, we'd all be eating medium well steaks.  Not me!  I'm at 130*F give or take.  Maybe a Bleu steak at 115*F every other year (just because I lost track of time and was too lazy to put it back on the grill.)  So I'll let the inspector off the hook on how to prepare food and keep him on the maintaining side. 

Bear mentioned that he was taught the cook before you probe, so to each their own.  It's just another safety net.that's part of a routine that's foreign to most people.  A probe can be sterilized by being wiped with alcohol.  It's the transfer of bacteria on the surface of the meat that rides the probe into the meat.  That's why most contaminated meat is ground meat.  Why do nurses sterilize the area of our skin that they're going to pierce with a needle?  If they didn't, would we get an infection from bacteria riding the needle?  Probably not, but they don't want the liability so they do what they do.  Kinda like cooking for family and friends  It's all good.  No harm in that

-Kurt


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 4, 2015)

There are a variety of people here with their opinions and beliefs. Some cross at the Green and some In Between. Some are more worried about Bacteria than others.

There is extensive info on Food Safety in the Forum nobody reads... BUT THEY SHOULD...

 
" NO ... No one would see it there (Food Safety Forum) as few if any people use that forum. In fact I doubt many people even know that forum exists, including myself. Needs to be here for all to see and respond to. "

The USDA and FDA establish guidelines and rules that have a wide margin of error to cover a broad spectrum of peoples needs. According to the USDA, if you are preparing food and you Sneeze or Cough, push your Hair out of your eyes, get possibly contaminated ingredients out of the Refer before or after starting your prep and/or have not Sanitized yourself, Tools and Work Area, with an appoved Sanitizer, Tested to be the proper strength/Ph, Before and After any of the above ...You are Breaking the Rules and are risking Foodborne Illness...Is this True? Yes. Does every person follow these and the many, many other guidlines ALL OF THE TIME? Highly doubtful...The Staff of SMF recommend following these guidelines because if you just follow most of them you reduce the risk of harming yourself and loved ones...*  EDUCATE yourself and make choices that work for you and are confident in...*

Below is info on the " 40 to 140 in 4 " guideline. It is often misquoted and misunderstood. It is up to the individual to take it for what it's worth. Hope this helps...JJ

Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Injected, Boned Rolled and Tied or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

This is how the rule was established...

A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect our members...


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## brickguy221 (Oct 4, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> There are a variety of people here with their opinions and beliefs. Some cross at the Green and some In Between. Some are more worried about Bacteria than others.
> 
> There is extensive info on Food Safety in the Forum nobody reads... BUT THEY SHOULD...
> 
> ...


Thanks JJ. There is a bit of sensible of information in what you posted.

I wonder though, how many people that won't put the probe in until the meat is 140* internal temp do the following without taking precautions and-or washing their hands before-after-etc after committing one of the following sins such as Sneeze, Cough, Push Hair out of Eyes, rub their Eyes, Blow their Nose and not wash their hands after blowing their nose as well as not washing their hands after doing one of the already said infractions?

I doubt not a single person can *HONESTLY*  raise their hand and say they *always*  wash their hands after doing one of the already mentioned things as well as others before touching the meat. Oh, there might be a person or two or three that might raise their hand out of dishonesty and say they do but if they want to be honest, they won't raise their hand.

I am sure that you are aware that even the restaurant people, food servers, and etc don't follow all of the rules although they are supposed to .Some will even spit on your steak if you send it back to the kitchen for adjustments because it wasn't grilled like you wanted it. 

Now in reference to the 4 hrs and 140*, what is a person supposed to do if after 4 hrs they probe the meat and it is only 125*? ... Are they supposed to throw it out? ... Going to be expensive for a lot of people if that would happen as there is no guarantee or way for factually knowing that the meat is going to be 140* after 4 hrs.

To sum it up, some fear the probe and some don't and have never had a problem nor ever  heard of anyone having a problem (myself included here) to this day, so as Dr K said in an earlier post, to each his own. 

When I originally made this tread, I had never heard of this 140* - 4 hr thing and wondered how serious it was and what was behind it. From all of the postings in it, it appears it is serious to some and not serious to others.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 4, 2015)

A very well educated and experienced Food Safety professional is my friend, Mentor and was my Instructor 20 years ago and my middle daughters instructor before retiring 2 years ago. She made it very clear that you are NEVER going to catch yourself or others in every single situation where you can contaminate food...BUT if you are vigilant, catch the big problems, cutting raw meat and salad fixings on the same board, and constantly Think where stuff can go wrong, you will be safe...

Quote: " Now in reference to the 4 hrs and 140*, what is a person supposed to do if after 4 hrs they probe the meat and it is only 125*? ... Are they supposed to throw it out? ... Going to be expensive for a lot of people if that would happen as there is no guarantee or way for factually knowing that the meat is going to be 140* after 4 hrs."

This ONLY applies to Ground meat, like a Fatty or Meatloaf, BRT Roasts, Injected Meat and to guys that punch holes with Garlic and Herbs, or other stuff, deep into the meat. The risk of contamination goes up. It has ZERO to do with the Intact Butt or Roast that was in the smoker and the fire goes out a couple of hours in or it is taking an extra hour or two to get to 140.

Spitting on Returned Meat? I can't say it never happens. Many quick service restaurants are staffed by people who are working in food service...Until they move on to whatever or don't give a S#!T. But 99.99% of Food Service PROFESSIONALS would never do this and would chastise then terminate anyone they caught abusing food or risking customers health. It is bad business and nobody makes money in restaurants that are shut down...JJ


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## brickguy221 (Oct 4, 2015)

Thanks everyone for all of the replys. I believe I found out that it is still safe for me to probe my meat prior to putting it into my 40" BT Smoker as I have always done without any problems and without fear. I appreciate all of the input you guys have taken the time to reply to my tread. Again, thanks and cheers to ya!!!!


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## electriclouie (Oct 9, 2015)

I have a eight and a half pound pork butt and I was wondering if you could tell me what kind of wood chips to use And rub to use never have done one in here yet but just worried that it won't come out right what should the internal temperature be


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## electriclouie (Oct 9, 2015)

What kind of modifications can I do to my 30 inch mes smoker


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 10, 2015)

ElectricLouie said:


> I have a eight and a half pound pork butt and I was wondering if you could tell me what kind of wood chips to use And rub to use never have done one in here yet but just worried that it won't come out right what should the internal temperature be


I like Fruit Wood on Pork. Apple is great choice and mild. Hickory is good too but stronger. Below is a mild basic rub that you can start with and add to if desired. For Pulled Pork smoke to an IT of 205°F. What is important is that a probe slides in all over with no resistance and the bone wiggles free with ease. You can rest the meat for 30 minutes on the counter tented with foil or if you need more time to prepare other items, can be wrapped in foil and towels then placed ina cooler for up to about 5 hours. If you smoke at 225-250, you can estimate that is will take 2 hours per pound. At 250-275 plan on 1.5 hours /Lb. It may take longer it may get done faster. I like to smoke all the way through others wrap in foil at an IT of 160 or so and finish inthe smoker or in an oven...JJ

*Mild Bubba Q Rub*  (All Purpose)

1/2C Sugar in the Raw (Turbinado)

2T Sweet Paprika (Hungarian)

1T Kosher Salt

1T Chili Powder* (contains some Cumin and Oregano) Ancho Chile is same without cumin, oregano etc.

1T Granulated Garlic

1T Granulated Onion

1tsp Black Pepper, more if you like

1/2tsp Grnd Allspice

For more heat add Cayenne or Chipotle Pwd to taste, start with 1/2tsp and go from there. Makes about 1 Cup

Apply your desired amount of Rub to the meat, wrap in plastic and rest in the refrigerator over night.or longer. The day of the smoke, pull the meat out, add more Rub and go into your pre-heated Smoker...

Note*...Some Chili Powders can be pretty Hot. McCormick and Spice Island are Mild...


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## electriclouie (Oct 10, 2015)

I really appreciate the info and I'll get back at you when I smoke this but I would like to learn how to attach pictures then I can show you what I've done cross my fingers hope everything goes good


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 11, 2015)

ElectricLouie said:


> I really appreciate the info and I'll get back at you when I smoke this but I would like to learn how to attach pictures then I can show you what I've done cross my fingers hope everything goes good


When ready, start a new thread in Pork. Here is some reading for you...JJ

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/125263/how-to-upload-a-photo-q-view-to-your-post


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## electriclouie (Oct 11, 2015)

does anybody know the accuracy of the internal probe of a Masterbuilt Signature Series smoker


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## Bearcarver (Oct 11, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> Thanks everyone for all of the replys. *I believe I found out that it is still safe for me to probe my meat prior to putting it into my 40" BT Smoker as I have always done without any problems and without fear. *I appreciate all of the input you guys have taken the time to reply to my tread. Again, thanks and cheers to ya!!!!


Not Really:

I go by what I learned a long time ago from "bbally", a *"Trusted Authority" of SMF, and an haccp and servsafe trainer, along with USA food code consulting*. The little I know about Food Safety, I learned from him.

Here is what he had to say on this topic:

The "intact muscle" rule for commercial USDA products allows an intact muscle to be cooked to rare using low temp. *Provided it has not been punctured.*

Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

*Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours.*  Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better.

Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

*Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

"inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."*

The rest of that Thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/72852/food-safety-and-low-and-slow-discussion

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Oct 11, 2015)

ElectricLouie said:


> does anybody know the accuracy of the internal probe of a Masterbuilt Signature Series smoker


I'm sure they all vary, however I believe the book on my Gen #2.5 says +/- 15°, which is fine with me.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Oct 11, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> Thanks for the link Earl. It appears that the majority believe you can put the probe in the meat anytime. I know I have never had a problem with probing Pork Loins, thus the reason I am questioning if no problem on Pork Loins and other Meats, why a problem on Boston Butts???  I haven't ever done a Boston Butt, but want to one day and want to be sure I am doing it the right way and if probing at the beginning is dangerous, I want to know why.... If it isn't dangerous, I will probe it when I put it in the Smoker.


I don't think anybody ever said it's only a problem with Pork Butts.

It's any piece of meat that's large enough to not get to 140° in the center within 4 hours.

If you don't puncture it too early, you don't have to worry about it.

See Post #28 above, and my note from a "Trusted Authority of this Forum".

Bear


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## dr k (Oct 11, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Not Really:
> 
> 
> I go by what I learned a long time ago from "bbally", a *"Trusted Authority" of SMF, and an haccp and servsafe trainer, along with USA food code consulting*. The little I know about Food Safety, I learned from him.
> ...


I used your link to read the fifteen posts in the thread and saw that it is locked.  Not allowing anymore posts. Manually tenderized steaks now have to be considered ground beef.  When they sit in the butcher's glass display case I wonder how long they can sit there and be able to be bought and cooked to 145*F or less as a steak instead of 160*F for ground beef? Or do they now have to be cooked to 160*F regardless?
-Kurt


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 11, 2015)




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## Bearcarver (Oct 12, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I used your link to read the fifteen posts in the thread and saw that it is locked. Not allowing anymore posts. Manually tenderized steaks now have to be considered ground beef. When they sit in the butcher's glass display case I wonder how long they can sit there and be able to be bought and cooked to 145*F or less as a steak instead of 160*F for ground beef? Or do they now have to be cooked to 160*F regardless?
> -Kurt


I would think they should be below 40° while in the care of the butcher.

And I don't think it takes more than 4 hours to do a steak.

The 40 to 140 in 4 should only affect large pieces of meat, like Butts, Briskets, Roasts, etc.

As for cooking to 145° or 160°----That has nothing to do with this. This is only about getting large cuts of meat that is no longer "Intact Muscle" from 40° to 140° in 4 hours. Where you take it to after that is a different case.

Bear


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## daricksta (Oct 12, 2015)

Brickguy221 said:


> Thanks for the link Earl. It appears that the majority believe you can put the probe in the meat anytime. I know I have never had a problem with probing Pork Loins, thus the reason I am questioning if no problem on Pork Loins and other Meats, why a problem on Boston Butts???  I haven't ever done a Boston Butt, but want to one day and want to be sure I am doing it the right way and if probing at the beginning is dangerous, I want to know why.... If it isn't dangerous, I will probe it when I put it in the Smoker.


I agree with the 40°-140° in 4 hours rule. Because I assist in my wife's licensed home daycare I have to have a current state Food Worker card. It must be updated every 2 years and to do that I need to pass an online food safety exam. Knowing the food Danger Zone is Food Safety 101.

As for inserting a temp probe into raw meat, I've read posts from guys who think this is unsafe but I disagree. If you have a clean probe and stick it inside raw meat, sure it could insert any meat surface bacteria into the inside meat but so what? Cooking the meat to above 140° IT will kill the nasties anyway. But if you're cooking beef to 125-135° medium rare, I still wouldn't worry--but that's my opinion.

°

The Danger Zone is why I've read it's a bad idea to slow cook a large (16 lbs. or more I would think) turkey in a MES because the IT will never get above 140° in 4 hours. When my wife cooks her classic upside down turkey in our kitchen oven she's cooking it at a minimum of 325°. Bone-in or boneless turkey breast is another matter and cooks just fine in a MES at even 225-250°. OK, back on topic from here on out.


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## Bearcarver (Oct 12, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I agree with the 40°-140° in 4 hours rule. Because I assist in my wife's licensed home daycare I have to have a current state Food Worker card. It must be updated every 2 years and to do that I need to pass an online food safety exam. Knowing the food Danger Zone is Food Safety 101.
> 
> As for inserting a temp probe into raw meat, I've read posts from guys who think this is unsafe but I disagree. If you have a clean probe and stick it inside raw meat, sure it could insert any meat surface bacteria into the inside meat but so what?* Cooking the meat to above 140° IT will kill the nasties anyway*. But if you're cooking beef to 125-135° medium rare, I still wouldn't worry--but that's my opinion.
> 
> ...


One would think that, but it's my understanding from guys like "bbally" and I believe "ChefJimmyJ" that the high heat later in the smoke could kill the Bacteria, but not the Toxins formed by the Bacteria. High heat will not kill those Toxins.

Bear


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## dr k (Oct 12, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> I would think they should be below 40° while in the care of the butcher.
> 
> And I don't think it takes more than 4 hours to do a steak.
> 
> ...


Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better
This is the quote that confused me because ground meat is supposed to be cooked to 160*F.  Of course it doesn't take four hours to even cook a reverse seared steak but if it was tenderized manually then it's been well pierced (contaminated) and I'll cook it to 130*F well below 140*F.  If someone wants a rare/med rare prime rib roast it won't get past 135*F in the center.  So this low temp roast should never be pierced until the outside is 140*F with a IR temp gun?

-Kurt


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## Bearcarver (Oct 12, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better
> This is the quote that confused me because ground meat is supposed to be cooked to 160*F.  Of course it doesn't take four hours to even cook a reverse seared steak but if it was tenderized manually then it's been well pierced (contaminated) and I'll cook it to 130*F well below 140*F.  If someone wants a rare/med rare prime rib roast it won't get past 135*F in the center.  So this low temp roast should never be pierced until the outside is 140*F with a IR temp gun?
> 
> -Kurt


There's a lot of other things that go along with this, but they're above my pay-grade.

All I know is what I put above in my earlier posts, which is if a large hunk of meat might take longer than 4 hours to go from 40° to 140°, then you should not puncture the meat in any way before you start & no Temp Probe inserted before the outer 1/2" gets to 140° for a certain time. (I just wait 3 hours before sterilizing & inserting my meat probe----That's well beyond the time needed).

If you're planning on using a high enough heat to get the meat from 40° to 140° in 4 hours, then it doesn't matter if you puncture it.

Here's the Thread with some of the other Info from the SMF "Trusted Authority" "bbally":

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/72852/food-safety-and-low-and-slow-discussion

Also, like I said before, this Intact Muscle rule has nothing to do with what temp the whole meat ends up going to after it gets to 140°. Don't confuse them.

Bear


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## daricksta (Oct 12, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> One would think that, but it's my understanding from guys like "bbally" and I believe "ChefJimmyJ" that the high heat later in the smoke could kill the Bacteria, but not the Toxins formed by the Bacteria. High heat will not kill those Toxins.
> 
> Bear


I would never claim I know more than those guys. What I do know is that no one has gotten sick from anything I've grilled and smoked. How would I know? Because last year I got food poisoning from a bad mussel I ate in a Thai restaurant. I know what food poisoning is all about.

When it comes to shellfish, there is a huge difference between bacteria and toxins because, like you said Bear, toxins aren't killed by high cooking heat. The chef/owner put that mussel (which was served to me closed so I shouldn't have eaten it) in a microwave and heated it on high until it opened. It was then brought back to my table and I ate it and got very sick over the next few days. I rarely go back to that place anymore because although the guy's a great cook, he's a dangerously cheap bastard--in my opinion.

Anyway, I don't sweat the toxins when it comes to cooking beef, pork, and poultry. Just like I don't sweat the carcinogens being created when flame hits the burgers and steaks I'm grilling over charcoal. But when it comes to sticking a clean probe inside raw meat, what kind of toxins are we talking about anyway? I've read some of bbally's comments, not that much with ChefJimmyJ.

Now, I just downloaded "The Big Bug Book" from the FDA. My limited reading (as of now) has informed me that seafood--primarily shellfish--and mushrooms are the most common repositories of hazardous and downright lethal toxins.

Then there's aflatoxins which can occur in animals feeding on contaminated grains and vegies and diets containing contaminated animal meat. Those are also carcinogenic. Bottom line, sticking a clean probe into raw meat won't introduce toxins into it. Either the meat's already contaminated with toxics or it isn't. Sticking a probe into meat won't result in e-coli contamination. It's already residing in the meat and cooking it to the right IT _will _kill the little buggers.

I'm not asking anyone to accept my opinions as fact. But it's how I think and it's how I'm going to continue to handle my own cooking until I experience a reason not to.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 12, 2015)

The big problem here is so many folks focus on a single detail...Probing and when...How many hours to go from 40 to 140...The list goes on and on. Cross contamination, prepping the meat and then making Beans and Coleslaw, with contaminated hands, tools, clothes, work surfaces, improperly washed raw ingredients, re-infected properly washed ingredients, you do everything right but every passersby in the family sticks their dirty hands in the food, you do everything right but you forget the open cut on your finger in all the excitement, etc., etc. Any of these is more likely to cause Food Poisoning than sticking the Probe in a raw Butt and smoking at 225°F. You are probably never going to catch every possible point that YOU could have contaminated your food and no single contamination will make you sick. Multiple things have to go wrong...JJ 

The most frequent violations which could result in cross contamination including failure to wash, rinse and sanitize cutting boards between uses, improper handwashing, failure to use thermometers and misuse of cloths, sponges or towels (Food Protection Report, March, 1998).


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## daricksta (Oct 13, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> The big problem here is so many folks focus on a single detail...Probing and when...How many hours to go from 40 to 140...The list goes on and on. Cross contamination, prepping the meat and then making Beans and Coleslaw, with contaminated hands, tools, clothes, work surfaces, improperly washed raw ingredients, re-infected properly washed ingredients, you do everything right but every passersby in the family sticks their dirty hands in the food, you do everything right but you forget the open cut on your finger in all the excitement, etc., etc. Any of these is more likely to cause Food Poisoning than sticking the Probe in a raw Butt and smoking at 225°F. You are probably never going to catch every possible point that YOU could have contaminated your food and no single contamination will make you sick. Multiple things have to go wrong...JJ
> 
> The most frequent violations which could result in cross contamination including failure to wash, rinse and sanitize cutting boards between uses, improper handwashing, failure to use thermometers and misuse of cloths, sponges or towels (Food Protection Report, March, 1998).


I heartily agree with your comments. When I'm applying a dry rub on meat, I always wash my hands with soap and hot water after touching the raw meat and before I move on to the next step. If I've finished hand spreading a yellow mustard base on ribs, brisket, and such, I wash up before going for the dry rub container. I place all meat on a rectangular baking sheet so I keep the cutting board clean. After the meat's in the smoker I thoroughly wash the baking sheet. I sanitize any surface meat or contaminated rub might have fallen onto.

I know the FDA/USDA food safety guidelines fairly well. There are places where they admit their guidelines are conservative. Also, we watch cooking competition shows. Maybe it's edited out but I've yet to see where any chef checks an IT with an instant read therm and I always wonder why. Maybe they're not allowed to because it makes for better TV if one batch after another of lamb chops comes out raw.


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## phrett (Oct 14, 2015)

If the interior of the raw meat is  "sterile" and probing it could introduce surface bacteria why does the inside even have to get cooked?

If the meat is not probed how do you know it reaches 140 to safely insert a probe?

I always probe when the meat goes on, to not do so seems unsafe!


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## Bearcarver (Oct 14, 2015)

Phrett said:


> If the interior of the raw meat is "sterile" and probing it could introduce surface bacteria why does the inside even have to get cooked?
> 
> If the meat is not probed how do you know it reaches 140 to safely insert a probe?
> 
> I always probe when the meat goes on, to not do so seems unsafe!


You do what you want to do.

I give people the best Info I have, or the best I can find from Trusted Sources. That's all I can do.

I'll continue to go by what guys like this (Below) say:

I go by what I learned a long time ago from "bbally", a *"Trusted Authority" of SMF, and an haccp and servsafe trainer, along with USA food code consulting*.  The little I know about Food Safety, I learned from him.

Here is what he had to say on this topic:

The "intact muscle" rule for commercial USDA products allows an intact muscle to be cooked to rare using low temp. *Provided it has not been punctured.*

Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

*Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours.*  Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better.

Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

*Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

"inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."*

The rest of that Thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/72852/food-safety-and-low-and-slow-discussion


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 15, 2015)

Moving on...JJ


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