# Phosphate- secret weapon



## browneyesvictim (Jul 20, 2018)

Riding on the heals of others... @daveomak , 

 chopsaw
., and others I'm playing around with phosphates. Used as a moisture retainer I thought I would try elevating up a round roast.  Now, round is notoriously a difficult "shoe leather" kind of cut. So this theoretically would be a great candidate... here is my experience.

This one had a pretty good sized bone in it making it difficult to slice thin.so I deboned it and tried to tie it up with butcher twine before injecting. After deboning and trim I was left with 3 lbs and a very loose roast and the twine wasn't going to hold it together like I wanted. So I just stiffed it in a mesh bag.

I measured out the phosphate and made up beef broth injection for 10% solution and injected. Went back in the fridge to rest. Stand by for the follow up and results.


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## chopsaw (Jul 20, 2018)

Watching ,


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## motocrash (Jul 20, 2018)

This will be interesting,last round I did was for roast beef sammiches.It worked good for it's purpose but could have been juicier.
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/rodney-round-roast.270920/


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## pc farmer (Jul 20, 2018)

Watching this also.  I used it in my big hams.  Want to try poultry.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 20, 2018)

c farmer said:


> Watching this also.  I used it in my big hams.  Want to try poultry.



Stand by for another post. I'm adding phosphates to pops brine cure. Should be a game changer.


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## johnmeyer (Jul 20, 2018)

Better living through chemistry ...


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## chopsaw (Jul 20, 2018)

Read the ingredient list on a loaf of bread


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## SmokinAl (Jul 21, 2018)

I've certainly heard a lot about it, but never used any.
Will be interested to see how your roast comes out.
BTW, you can SV a round roast & have it fork tender without any additives!
Al


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## SlickRockStones (Jul 21, 2018)

Very nice. Can’t wait to see the final product. Although he lacked the skills to expertly command his backyard grill, Clark Griswold’s contribution in developing food additives should be commended.


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## dward51 (Jul 21, 2018)

I've been using B&P #414 in sticks and sausage for years.  Great stuff!!!   I've never thought about using it in an injection (guess I've lead a sheltered life), but it makes sense.  This will indeed be interesting to follow as well as some of the other suggestions made here.

And for any concerns about phosphates being "chemicals"... Phosphates are not a synthetic or man made compound and occur in nature in a lot of the foods you eat already.  This is just that substance (or substances as they are usually a blend) extracted into a pure form for controllable and measurable use in a specific purpose.


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## nanuk (Jul 21, 2018)

that appears to be the heal end of a full round.
That indeed would be a great thing if you can make it tender and moist.   
that particular piece of meat is notorious for being tough and dry if cooked incorrectly (Like my Mom would do it...   dry, open, and in a 375F oven!   Can you say Steel Belted Radial Tough???)

I LOVE those cuts when someone else does them right, as the FLAVOUR is amazing!  And if moist and tender??? Wow!  I can eat a LOT of it with gravy and rice! 

I wonder if you could cold smoke for two hours THEN SV?   best of both worlds??


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## ab canuck (Jul 21, 2018)

That is very interesting, When we butcher our stuff the rounds usually go to cutlets, jerky or ground. So I will be watching this for sure..


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## nanuk (Jul 21, 2018)

the heal of the round makes GREAT stew... so when SmokinAl says SV, I can see the advantage of it.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 21, 2018)

Here is the turkey for experiment #2. Guess what is already in the "enhanced" formula? Yup. Sodium Phosphate!


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 21, 2018)

Watching...


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## nanuk (Jul 21, 2018)

I'm not sure I have ever seen a turkey up here "Enhanced" except the "ButterBall" brands that have grease injected into them....

I will have to look now, real close!


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

12# turkey injected with salt sugar STPP and cure #1 in Apple juice and slaughterhouse poultry injection seasoning.
I opted to only inject instead of brine.
Stuffed I a large zip lock bag and will be a 2 week wait in the fridge.


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> Riding on the heals of others... @daveomak ,
> 
> chopsaw
> ., and others I'm playing around with phosphates. Used as a moisture retainer I thought I would try elevating up a round roast.  Now, round is notoriously a difficult "shoe leather" kind of cut. So this theoretically would be a great candidate... here is my experience.
> ...


What happened to the roast? Did I miss it somehow or is it still resting with the injection?


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

Got the roast in now. 2 rows of pitmasters choice pellets. MES at 225' for a couple hours then will pan and braise in stock. I hope the nylon bag doesn't melt!


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 22, 2018)

I hope it doesn't melt either...lol. I'm always worried about materials melting or offgassing. Cooking utensils are sometimes made from nylon, so hopefully it's the same type of nylon and it'll be ok.


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## motocrash (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> I hope the nylon bag doesn't melt!


Me Too!


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

Internal temp at 121 three hours in. Panned with 4 cups of beef broth and foiled. AMNPS out. I can tell it's going to be juicy when I probed it.
Nylon bag doing great! Left it on.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

Finished in 4 hours. Rest drain and save broth. Net and string removed. Wrapped in foil and in the fridge to cool before slicing.


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## pc farmer (Jul 22, 2018)

Thats gonna be good


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## chopsaw (Jul 22, 2018)

What was the internal when you pulled it off ?


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## chopsaw (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> 12# turkey injected with salt sugar STPP and cure #1 in Apple juice and slaughterhouse poultry injection seasoning.
> I opted to only inject instead of brine.
> Stuffed I a large zip lock bag and will be a 2 week wait in the fridge.


Wait 2 weeks if you must . That will be ready next weekend , ( if you did a full injection ) or anytime if you go hot and fast .


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> What was the internal when you pulled it off ?


135 internal. It coasted a couple more degrees. 


chopsaw said:


> Wait 2 weeks if you must . That will be ready next weekend , ( if you did a full injection ) or anytime if you go hot and fast .



I want a full cure. 10 days minimum. 14 days is going to give me some grace.


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> 135 internal. It coasted a couple more degrees.
> 
> 
> I want a full cure. 10 days minimum. 14 days is going to give me some grace.



He pulled it off?!? Where was I? I was making dinner! I missed it! Ok... there's pictures.. it's ok...


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> Finished in 4 hours. Rest drain and save broth. Net and string removed. Wrapped in foil and in the fridge to cool before slicing.
> View attachment 371589


To cool? In the fridge? Why? Is it meant to be lunch meat? It'll be good lunch meat, but I thought it was a dinner meat...lol.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 22, 2018)

Nope. Vortex drums on the kettle for dinner tonight. The roast is for sammiches. I blame Bear!


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## chopsaw (Jul 22, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> I want a full cure.


I understand . The injection reduces the time , but  won't hurt to wait .


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## pc farmer (Jul 22, 2018)

chopsaw said:


> I understand . The injection reduces the time , but  won't hurt to wait .




Your right.  I injected my 27 lb hams and cured for 2 weeks. By the science they would have been cured in a week.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Sliced pics! Sooo juicy and tender! Not chewy at all. Better than any store bought deli roast beef I've had. Very smooth texture and the beef flavor really comes through but only slightly Smokey.  Yielded 2 pkgs  a little over 1 lb each afer all my nibbling.


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## chopsaw (Jul 23, 2018)

Looks great . Nice job .


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 23, 2018)

After you ate most of it....lol. I can see why! It really does look fantastic! You're going to have to make two next time so you can eat one while you package up the other...:p...

I'm really going to have to get a slicer ...and a vac sealer ...and a deep freezer.


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## motocrash (Jul 23, 2018)

Man,that turned out good.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Thanks folks. And for the likes.
I couldn't stop shoving it in my face. Lol! I'm making burgers tonight but wouldn't mind a Sammie! The broth is calling my namebfor an open faced with gravy with mushrooms and onions or a French dip.

Funny you mentioned the freezer Kris. I just picked up another one on CL yesterday.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Thanks again Chop and DaveO for your insight on phosphates.

Thanks moto. It really did exceed even what I was expecting. Way better!


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## pc farmer (Jul 23, 2018)

Man that's beautiful.  Great job.  I need to do this with beef for deli style roast beef.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

c farmer said:


> Man that's beautiful.  Great job.  I need to do this with beef for deli style roast beef.



Do it!  You wont be dissapointed. For just the cost alone for what you pay for roast beef like that! Turned that cheap round into something special. Thanks for the like.


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## chilerelleno (Jul 23, 2018)

Simply gorgeous sliced Roast Beef!
Bravo on the whole process.
*Like! *Again and again and again.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Thanks Chile. Your no slouch yourself! 
Appreciate the like.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Dinner tonight was 100% ground brisket. Of course I added phosphates at the appropriate amounts.

16 lb packer brisket. Boy was it fatty! I trimmed 6 lbs off for 10 lbs of grind. Went through the fine plate once and mixed in .8 oz of phosphate with a small amount of water dissolved. Then mixed. Five 2 lb pkgs of grind. All but 1 to the freezer and a package out for a late burger and a brew tonight for all my hard work.


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## KrisUpInSmoke (Jul 23, 2018)

Thanks..now I want a meat grinder too.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 23, 2018)

Haha! Well maybe you can start with a patty press at least? Stick around here on SMF long enough sunshine, and suddenly you have a kitchen full of that kind of stuff! Fun!


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 24, 2018)

This one is for 

 Bearcarver
!


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## Bearcarver (Jul 25, 2018)

browneyesvictim said:


> This one is for
> 
> Bearcarver
> !
> View attachment 371762




Not Nice to tease a Hungry Bear with Awesome Looking Sammies in your Pic-a-nic Basket!!
You better call the Ranger for Back-up!!
Nice Job.
Like.

Bear


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## Jeff Wright (Jul 25, 2018)

So, a couple questions about your phosphate use... Where do you get it?  I did a phosphate search and found tons of  phosphate cleaning productso_O.  

Actually I did find the 414 finally.  Have to go to a butcher to buy?

Mainly though, is what your mixture use of this stuff is?  One place I saw said to use 6-7 oz per 100# of meat.  I think that translates to about 1/5 of an ounce for a 3# peice of meat?

That looks like some darn fine lunch meat.


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## chopsaw (Jul 25, 2018)

Wow . That sandwich looks fantastic .


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 25, 2018)

Bearcarver said:


> Not Nice to tease a Hungry Bear with Awesome Looking Sammies in your Pic-a-nic Basket!!
> You better call the Ranger for Back-up!!
> Nice Job.
> Like.
> ...



It was Mr. RANGER that sent me, Yogi. He and  Boo-boo said you liked homemade horseradish brown mustard on it too.



Jeff Wright said:


> So, a couple questions about your phosphate use... Where do you get it?  I did a phosphate search and found tons of  phosphate cleaning productso_O.
> 
> Actually I did find the 414 finally.  Have to go to a butcher to buy?
> 
> ...



This came from Butcher Packer. A few of the places that normally carry it have been out. Daveomak uses an Ames brand called Amesphos, but is no longer available or something. The only food-grade I could find on Amazon was out of stock and has been for a couple of months. It was in my shopping cart a long time until I finally placed the order for the BP Phosphate.

Good question about the usage!

It took me a bit to wrap my head around how to calculate how much phosphate to use as a given percentage for injection Vs. adding to ground meat V.s. if dong an equilibrium brine. I thought it would be important to explain this difference.  Through lots of patience and many PM’s with @daveomak, it finally sunk in to my thick skull!

On the label of the 414 Sausage Phosphate, it reads: ”2-TBS for 25 lbs. of meat. This is obviously for adding directly to GROUND MEAT. This is not helpful if you want to inject, or use in a brine! Even then, I recommend dissolving the STPP in a little water fefore adding to your grind.

The calculation for injection or brine is done by calculating your total weights INCLUDING THE WATER or BROTH or whatever liquid medium you are mixing the phosphate up in to inject. So I was stuck in understanding first:


How much water/broth/liquid should I use? The answer for injecting is typically 10% of the weight of the meat. So for 10 lbs of meat you would typically use 10% of that which is 1 pound of water or 1 pint-(Remembering the old saying “Pint the pound the world around!”) or 453.592 Grams (454 rounded) or 16 Fluid Oz. If you are brining, you simply add the weight of the water to the calculation.
In this example, you have 10 lbs of meat and 1 lb of water (or salt free stock) for a total off 11 lbs. or *4989.5 grams.* I created an XL spreadsheet calculator so I will always have it.

STPP is calculated at .4%. So for 11 lbs you would multiply 4989 X .4% = 19.95 grams
Sugar at 1% So for 11 lbs you would multiply 4989 X 1% = 49.89 grams
Salt is figured at 2%. So for a 11 lbs you would multiply 4989 x 2% = 99.78 grams
And any cure at 0.25%. So for 11 lbs you would multiply 4989 X .25% = 12.47 grams
Dave was very clear in that you want to dissolve the above ingredients ONE AT A TIME, AND IN THAT ORDER.

I will spare the commentary about how to inject and cure times etc, but I hope this helps.

Edit: fixed typos included in calculations


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## motocrash (Jul 25, 2018)

Anyone try it for baking yet?


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## Jeff Wright (Jul 25, 2018)

Thanks..that is quite the explanation.  It would tend to disable the noggin going through those calcs!


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## chopsaw (Jul 25, 2018)

motocrash said:


> Anyone try it for baking yet?


Not yet , but I've been reading up on it .


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 25, 2018)

Jeff Wright said:


> Thanks..that is quite the explanation.  It would tend to disable the noggin going through those calcs!



Once the whisky buzz wears off, the math seems to make more sense! Lol! Once you convert your weights to metric in grams, the rest of those multiplication factors fall in place a lot better in my mind anyway. Obviously you need a good scale.


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## mosparky (Jul 25, 2018)

Great explanation and very helpful to have in print. I too struggled with the full concept and proportions.


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## zwiller (Jul 25, 2018)

Great explanation Browneye!  Perhaps Dave will confirm but I recall he also has a simplified method where he does not include the weight of the water/stock in his injection calcs.  That's what I do and works well.  Another thing I try and remind people is that when running the numbers remember .4% equals .004.  If you don't hit the percent button on your calculator you will be far off.  Easy to goof.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 25, 2018)

zwiller said:


> Great explanation Browneye!  Perhaps Dave will confirm but I recall he also has a simplified method where he does not include the weight of the water/stock in his injection calcs.  That's what I do and works well.  Another thing I try and remind people is that when running the numbers remember .4% equals .004.  If you don't hit the percent button on your calculator you will be far off.  Easy to goof.



By my understanding of Daves explanation is he believes:
From Dave O.:
_Since I'm adding the individual ingredients to the meat product, and since the water will "mostly if not totally" evaporate, I don't calculate the water weight into the formula... I also didn't subtract the weight of the hide from the weight of the ham... If a slab of bacon is ~10% hide, a ham must be around 3% hide... insignificant... And then there is the leakage into the zip bag..._

_ All things considered, this method is more accurate than the method employed by the "HAM" manufacturers.... They mix up hundreds of gallons of cure/spice mix and randomly inject meats of different weights and thickness...

If absorption is off by 20%, the values are still well within recommended values...

_​https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/ham-from-fresh-picnics-update-10-21-money.236375/


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## mosparky (Jul 25, 2018)

Just curious, why dissolve one at a time and in that order ? 
If Dave says so, that's how I will do it, but I still like to know why.


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 25, 2018)

I don't know, and I didn't ask. But I did notice that the STPP powder acted very strangely when I added it to water. It instantly wanted to concentrate into hard rock crystal(s) like big pieces of rock salt. It took a bit of time to get it dissolved. I did NOT heat the liquid at all, which is what instinct will try and tell you to do to help dissolve things. But I know better that heat will adversely affect the cure, and I only assumed this was true with STPP.


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## zwiller (Jul 25, 2018)

I also noticed the same thing that it was hard to dissolve but I did it totally backwards and hot, salt first (no cure though).  I will try and remember to add first.  I could not find any info on whether heating STPP was not good.  I assumed it was OK.


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## daveomak (Jul 25, 2018)

_*.......BEWARE......*_ of the types of phosphates and their specific uses...  STPP is what I use....  The AMES Company now has STPP for sale again..


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## daveomak (Jul 25, 2018)

_Just curious, why dissolve one at a time and in that order ? 
If Dave says so, that's how I will do it, but I still like to know why.
_
I read it some where and there's no point in trying to reinvent the wheel....  probably some chemistry thing...


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## dward51 (Jul 25, 2018)

Although I have not tried B&P #414 in a liquid brine, I use it all the time in my sticks. I've noticed the clumping of B&P #414.  How I dealt with it was I first put the B&P #414 into my small stainless bowl that I will mix my dry spices in.  Then I make sure it is all finely crushed into a light fluffy powder and no small lumps.  Then I mix it with the dry ingredients and it's well dispersed.   Then I add the cure which has been dissolved in the water I intend to use and after stirring it all into a slurry, it goes into the ground meat.  I then let the binder and other spices "kick" and meld overnight in the fridge before stuffing.  Never had a problem since I started doing it that way.  I presume it eventually dissolved into the slurry or dispersed into the meat in the overnight rest.  Either way the results are much better than without.

Ok, so how did the burger TASTE with the B&P #414?  It looked wonderfully juicy. Texture better?


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## chopsaw (Jul 25, 2018)

daveomak said:


> _Just curious, why dissolve one at a time and in that order ?
> If Dave says so, that's how I will do it, but I still like to know why.
> _
> I read it some where and there's no point in trying to reinvent the wheel....  probably some chemistry thing...


I do it , because I learned it from Dave . Research has told me , that the intent of the phosphates is to retain moisture . It grabs on to what it comes in contact with . So the liquid should be first . Other ingredients in the liquid first can affect the moisture bonding of the phosphate . 

Phosphates are moisture absorbing . Even when stored . If you have clumps that need to be broke down out if the container , they need to be sealed better . Should be a powder .


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## browneyesvictim (Jul 26, 2018)

dward51 said:


> Ok, so how did the burger TASTE with the B&P #414? It looked wonderfully juicy. Texture better?



Taste- Was the same. Delicious, beefy flavor more like a ground steak.

Texture- remember, I made that burger patty in the photo above immediately after mixing the phosphate in. I imagine there is some window of preferred "resting period" for the phosphate to do its magic like any other spice, or cure, etc. I have never read how long that should be. Overnight minimum is what my gut is telling me, just like cure. But you can tell it was a very juicy burger!

Last night I did cook up the rest of that 2# package into 5 more patties and fried them up on a flat top electric skillet. I used 2C of beef stock from making the roast beef and added 4TBS of Wondra flour. Poured in a skillet with some sautéed mushrooms. (I also sautéed up a whole onion separate cuz mamma don't like 'em.) Peeled and quartered 5 or 6 small russets, and boiled them up for mashed taters. Ok, so this meal is kind of unfair because it is just such gosh darn good comfort food! But I can make a few observations about the beef... There was no blood, or any liquid in the grind or package that you normally see in most ground beef. The patties form nicely though and hold together well. They fried up like normal and was a somewhat normal amount of grease that rendered out while frying. When I pulled them off on to a plate, there were no further juices that ran out- it all stayed in the burger. They were very juicy burgers that taste and have texture more like a really good ground steak than your typical burger.

Dave- Thank you for bringing that up! There are many more phosphates that will make your head spin as you point out. That has me VERY curious what each application is as a food additive- vs a cleaning product. I cant tell EXACTLY what 414 Sausage Phosphate is, and can only assume it is STPP.


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## daveomak (Jul 26, 2018)

When buying any phosphate or other stuff for that matter...  look for the FDA/USDA sticker... or write the company as far as "for human consumption" goes...  
At the header of that list, NOTE.... _* "The list of commonly used phosphates in meat products".*_..  and each has a specific "thing" it does to improve a specific product...  they don't all provide the same finished product...  is what I gather from reading up on that stuff....

BEWARE of stuff labeled "Organic" as organic can include some nasty stuff...


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## dward51 (Jul 26, 2018)

I would stick to the known brands made for sausage production which you see talked about in this forum.  Butcher & Packer #414, AmesPhos, and there is one other one that DaveO uses but the name escapes me at the moment (I think it's available on Amazon?).  I'm sure Dave will fill in that blank shortly.  Most of those phosphates are actually a blend of different phosphates and not a single compound.

B&P 414 is inexpensive and easy to find.  AmesPhos went out of production for a while, but it's available again and also inexpensive.  Also with these food safe phosphates a little bit goes a long long long way.  A 1 lb bag will last the average dabbler in sausage and sticks several years.


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## chopsaw (Jul 26, 2018)

Pronto Foods is the other one .


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## pc farmer (Jul 26, 2018)

dward51 said:


> I would stick to the known brands made for sausage production which you see talked about in this forum.  Butcher & Packer #414, AmesPhos, and there is one other one that DaveO uses but the name escapes me at the moment (I think it's available on Amazon?).  I'm sure Dave will fill in that blank shortly.  Most of those phosphates are actually a blend of different phosphates and not a single compound.
> 
> B&P 414 is inexpensive and easy to find.  AmesPhos went out of production for a while, but it's available again and also inexpensive.  Also with these food safe phosphates a little bit goes a long long long way.  A 1 lb bag will last the average dabbler in sausage and sticks several years.


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## pc farmer (Jul 26, 2018)

From Amazon


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## daveomak (Jul 27, 2018)

https://www.prontofoods.net/collections/all


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## zwiller (Jul 30, 2018)

In the spirit of this thread I did burgers last night with 5% water and .5% STPP.  Best burgers so far.  Note to self: form patties right after mixing and chill.  Do not form immediately prior to grilling...


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## browneyesvictim (Aug 6, 2018)

To wrap up the loose end on the turkey... Here is a shot of it 8 hours in at 250' and almost done. Burnt 3 rows of cherry pellets. Got great color. Don't have any cut or plated shots, but this is for a friend. He wanted a "candied" turkey. This should fit the bill.

By the way I am really liking these nylon bags over the cotton! Its like non-stick, and not even close to melting. I was going to hang this bird in the smoker, but was too long and would have been too close to the element.


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## toddk63 (Jul 3, 2020)

It appears you guys are using ~0.5% STPP  (0.8 oz in 10 lb) in your brisket grind. I have used STPP in sausage before. Len Poli uses 0.30%.  One note said 2 TBS per 25lb.  Guess I'll have to weigh some STPP.


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## daveomak (Jul 4, 2020)

0.4 - 0.5 % should be all one uses...  0.5% being MAX allowable by the USDA....






						Food Additives – Craft Butchers' Pantry
					






					butcherspantry.com


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## toddk63 (Jul 4, 2020)

daveomak said:


> 0.4 - 0.5 % should be all one uses...  0.5% being MAX allowable by the USDA....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect.  Thanks!


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