# sausage without nitrates



## love dog (Nov 12, 2011)

Hello all,I_m new to this so please bare with me.I have done a lot of sausage making and smoking but am not an expert by any means.I do not understand why you have to put nitrates in sausage as long as you bring it up to 140 degrees within 4 hours and freeze it after words . I would like to try and sell it  retail eventuaily (small scale) And would like to sell nitrate free sausage.My question is do any of you know the right way to make sausage without nitrates that would apease the usda??_


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## solaryellow (Nov 12, 2011)

You don't need nitrates or nitrites if you make it through the danger zone in less than 4 hours.


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## alblancher (Nov 12, 2011)

Love dog

Spend a little time learning about the different types of sausage and when nitrites or nitrates are required.  As Solaryellow mentioned it making fresh sausage (anything cooked to safe temps and then refrigerated) nitrites and nitrates are not required.  As you try more and more recipes you will start using these chemicals.   It is very important that you learn what they do and how they are used.

Good luck and don't think twice about asking

Al


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## venture (Nov 12, 2011)

As you have been told, fresh sausages require no cure as long as they are handled as fresh sausages.

Doing the business thing is a different animal.  I would recommend you get a good lawyer.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## SmokinAl (Nov 13, 2011)

I agree, to sell your product you will need to meet a lot of regulations.

Probably not worth the effort, unless you have access to a commercial kitchen.


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## boykjo (Nov 13, 2011)

SmokinAl said:


> I agree, to sell your product you will need to meet a lot of regulations.
> 
> Probably not worth the effort, unless you have access to a commercial kitchen.


Even if you have a commercial kitchen acces you still cant sell your sausage until the packaging has that usda emblem on it... If you want to sell over the counter from the sausage kitchen there are regulations and liscensing  requirements.... Talk to your department of agriculture (meat and poultry dept) in you area and they will me more than happy to tell you all you need to know. I gave up on the idea of making my sausage on my own for sale...... The most economical way to produce sausage for sale is to have a sausage plant that is already inspected make it for you.....

Joe


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## BGKYSmoker (Nov 13, 2011)

Nepas asked my friend who is a USDA inspector what all i need to sell stuff.

Friend

Zoning laws are a must for you area.

You need to have a regulated and inspected processing area. Once approved you shell out 25k for the USDA stamp with number. A parking spot and some sort of office for the inspector. Liability insurance. FSA approved processing equipment and certifications, Health ordinance inspected....BLAA BLAA BLAA

Ok

Not worth it.

As for nitrate/nitrite AKA Cures

I been doing this for over 30 years and started with salt peter PURE. Over the years the industry has made avail modern cures. When i smoke any sausage i add cure, even when i start at 150.

Its just my way. The choice is yours.


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## boykjo (Nov 13, 2011)

nepas said:


> Nepas asked my friend who is a USDA inspector what all i need to sell stuff.
> 
> Friend
> 
> ...




yep.... an office and a parking spot for the inspector...........and dont park in it..............


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## skully (Nov 18, 2011)

love dog said:


> Hello all,I_m new to this so please bare with me.I have done a lot of sausage making and smoking but am not an expert by any means.I do not understand why you have to put nitrates in sausage as long as you bring it up to 140 degrees within 4 hours and freeze it after words . I would like to try and sell it  retail eventuaily (small scale) And would like to sell nitrate free sausage.My question is do any of you know the right way to make sausage without nitrates that would apease the usda??_




I will never put any of that in mine......my great great great great great great............. grandfathers never had any nor will I...or my boys....no 1 died ever....garbage...eau natural....chemicals are poison


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## fpnmf (Nov 18, 2011)

SKULLY said:


> I will never put any of that in mine......my great great great great great great............. grandfathers never had any nor will I...or my boys....no 1 died ever....garbage...eau natural....chemicals are poison


So...in all the pics you posted of sausage and bacon you smoked you used no cure other than salt??

That's vey interesting..I had a sattelite service guy here a few months ago that was 35 years old..been raising hogs all his life and his family did all the processing at home/farm.

He told me all they ever used was salt and some sugar. He was a real healthy fella.

He also tightened me up on all the local fishing holes!!

Thanks!!

  Craig


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 18, 2011)

SKULLY said:


> I will never put any of that in mine......my great great great great great great............. grandfathers never had any nor will I...or my boys....no 1 died ever....garbage...eau natural....chemicals are poison


Yeah and Grandma Defrosted the Turkey on the counter for 2-3 days and no 1 died ever!...Don't make it a good Idea to Keep Doing It That Way...Just Sayin' for the Noob's...JJ


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## richtee (Nov 18, 2011)

SKULLY said:


> I will never put any of that in mine......my great great great great great great............. grandfathers never had any nor will I...or my boys....no 1 died ever....garbage...eau natural....chemicals are poison




... if you are NOT taking the meat thru the danger zone (you know what that is right?) within the alloted time. you are going to have problems.


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## BGKYSmoker (Nov 18, 2011)

Powdered celery juice

nuff said


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## pops6927 (Nov 18, 2011)

Hey Richtee!  Long time no see!


Richtee said:


> Seriously? Can admin/mod delete this post? Christ onna cracker.  Hey Bonehead/Skully... if you are NOT taking the meat thru the danger zone (you know what that is right?) within the alloted time. you are going to have problems. Or, maybe that's the reason for this post?


Love Dog:

What kind of 'sausage' are you talking about?


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## venture (Nov 18, 2011)

Powdered celery juice.  No nitrates or nitrites added.  LOL

Be safe!

Richtee, nice to see you!

Good luck and good smoking.


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## werdwolf (Nov 18, 2011)

gonna try the "non chemical cure"  after Christmas, I'll post how that goes.


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## tjohnson (Nov 19, 2011)

werdwolf said:


> gonna try the "non chemical cure"  after Christmas, I'll post how that goes.




Please expand on this...

We went thru this on a previous post, and "Dried Celery Juice" contains "Nitrates", that are converted to "Nitrites"

Basically, the terms "Chemical Free" and "Nitrite Free" are "Marketing Schemes", because "Nitrates" are in a Natural Form, rather than "Man Made Synthesized Chemical".

I'm all for reducing chemicals in our food, but not when it's a play on words, by the manufacturer!

Todd


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## Bearcarver (Nov 19, 2011)

I use cure for smoked sausage that I'm going to smoke low & slow, and finish it at 160˚ IT.

I don't use cure for fresh sausage that I'm gonna cook hot & fast, and finish it at 160˚ IT.

I learned most of my safety in meat curing & smoking from books, and from Great guys like Richtee, who were patrolling these halls when I was a Newbi.

Good to see you Rich !!!!

Bear


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## aceofspd (Nov 19, 2011)

I suggest you read "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas. It is available in most libraries but anyone who makes sausage will want their own copy.  This is the bible of sausage making. The author is not into "nitrate free" but the book goes into his trials and tribulations of opening a commercial sausage kitchen. The two chapters you will want to read are titled "Wholesome Meat Act" and "Opening a Sausage Kitchen".


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## shooterrick (Nov 19, 2011)

ATTENTION NEWBIES!  If you read and digest anything from this post please read and digest this.

All of us sausage makers will make from time to time fresh (no nitrate/nitrite cured)  sausage.  DO NOT attempt to slow or cold smoke these types of sausages.  Fresh Italian and breakfast sausage are a type of this class of sausage.  If you do not get these up to and over 140F in less than 4 hrs you are flirting with you and your families health.  They are fine fried or grilled but not cold or slow smoked.  You may not have a problem today, tomorrow, or even next week but you are setting up an invironment for potential harmful bacterial growth that can KILL you if cold smoked. 

LEAVE the opinions to the contrary alone.  If you want to make sausage for cold smoking or slow smoking then research NON ANTIDOTAL information.  Do Not rely on the grandpa grandma did it so it must be safe reports.  My grandfather tested gas lines with a match.  Was that safe???????


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## richtee (Nov 19, 2011)

werdwolf said:


> gonna try the "non chemical cure"  after Christmas, I'll post how that goes.







nepas said:


> Powdered celery juice
> 
> nuff said


Christ... what's the difference in what you use? Nitrates/ites are Nitrates/ites no matter from the source. Oh..wait- the difference is you can CONTROL THE AMOUNTS much more accurately using modern meat curing products. What's the spec sheet/ analysis on a celery stick, anyway? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Hey Pops, Bear and Venture...hia- hope all is well. Well, other than the Michigan game Venture  ;{)


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 19, 2011)

Well Said!....Rick, thanks for pointing this out...JJ


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## pit 4 brains (Nov 19, 2011)

Seems to me more vegetables in thier raw state contain more nitrites per kg than smoked sausage. Be sure to boil your spinach wrap and don't dip that broccoli raw!

After reading through some of this, I'm surprised any of us are alive..

http://www.naturalnews.com/sodium_nitrite.html


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## solaryellow (Nov 19, 2011)

Pit 4 Brains said:


> Seems to me more vegetables in thier raw state contain more nitrites per kg than smoked sausage. Be sure to boil your spinach wrap and don't dip that broccoli raw!
> 
> After reading through some of this, I'm surprised any of us are alive..
> 
> http://www.naturalnews.com/sodium_nitrite.html




That is exactly right Pete and how the "organic" industry gets away with labeling their products as Nitrate/Nitrite free. Looks at the labels on these organic products and you will see celery juice on the ingredients list. That is where they are getting their nitrates from which is what I believe Nepas was saying.


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## fpnmf (Nov 19, 2011)

Here's the ever so humble Ruhlmans take on this...quite entertaining!!

http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/

Make sure to read the comments...hilarious!!

  Craig


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## pit 4 brains (Nov 19, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> Here's the ever so humble Ruhlmans take on this...quite entertaining!!
> 
> http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/
> 
> ...


Good reference!

My favorite line is; "But whatever you do, stay away from too much celery.  That stuff’ll kill ya."


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## SmokinAl (Nov 19, 2011)

VERY INTERESTING!!


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## werdwolf (Nov 19, 2011)

My bad, I guess it's not the nitrites/nitrates with the celery, but more about the sodium.   I am under the impression there is less sodium this way, and I'm going to try to make something for my dad with his heart failure.

Anyone know different feel free to chime in.


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## DanMcG (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey Werdwolf, I for one will be looking forward to your experiment. and I'd have to agree there's got to be less sodium in the celery

You'll need a control piece with no cure, and one with nitrite for comparison


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## skully (Nov 19, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> So...in all the pics you posted of sausage and bacon you smoked you used no cure other than salt??
> 
> That's vey interesting..I had a sattelite service guy here a few months ago that was 35 years old..been raising hogs all his life and his family did all the processing at home/farm.
> 
> ...


Yes




Chef JimmyJ said:


> Yeah and Grandma Defrosted the Turkey on the counter for 2-3 days and no 1 died ever!...Don't make it a good Idea to Keep Doing It That Way...Just Sayin' for the Noob's...JJ


what does turkey have to do with this topic


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## TulsaJeff (Nov 19, 2011)

The debate is fine.. Only as long as it can be done with no name calling and is for the sole purpose of learning. Otherwise it serves no purpose and should be deleted. This goes for everyone involved.

I have sanitized the thread and you guys can now carry on in a more professional manner. Cheers


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## aceofspd (Nov 19, 2011)

OK, I do have to comment about the comments. When you heat nitrates at a high temperature, they form nitrous amines. Nitrous amines are a known carcinogens. Frying bacon till it is extra crispy, is the definition of "high temperature". We had this discussion 30 years ago in my bio chem course. After explaining this to the class (test responsible) the professor smiles real big and says "but vitamin C is an antidote for nitrous amines" (again test responsible). Did anyone see the comment where they quoted Julia Childs as saying you should drink OJ with your bacon? I haven't enjoyed crispy bacon since.

I would never think of doing a cold smoke without nitrates but I have to admit that I looked into the celery powder, but never acted on it.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 19, 2011)

SKULLY said:


> Yes
> 
> what does turkey have to do with this topic?


The point is...There are many things our Grand Parents did that WE should not do because times have Changed...Mass Mechanical Slaughter and Processing of Meat and Poultry has introduced several Bacteria that were just not an issue in our Grandparents time...You have every right to do what you want and can make Sausage with whatever you want...Regardless of how unsafe it may be...Good Luck...JJ

Take a look at this...  http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates


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## BGKYSmoker (Nov 19, 2011)

Ya

Its all good. Now have nuther beer and a stick


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## skully (Nov 20, 2011)

nepas said:


> Ya
> 
> Its all good. Now have nuther beer and a stick




Cheers nepas, I will have 1 later, look forward to all of Your posts....


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## shooterrick (Nov 20, 2011)

Check out this thread if you are looking into when to cure or not.  I am done other than following along so enjoy the debate and lets keep it informative.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/113098/specific-food-safety-questions-ask-here#post_717302


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## richtee (Nov 21, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> Hey Werdwolf, I for one will be looking forward to your experiment. and I'd have to agree there's got to be less sodium in the celery
> 
> You'll need a control piece with no cure, and one with nitrite for comparison




Heck, Dan...just use Cure1 if sodium is the issue. Surely a teaspoon in 5 pounds ain't gonna set off and salt alerts.


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## DanMcG (Nov 21, 2011)

Rich tee said:


> Heck, Dan...just use Cure1 if sodium is the issue. Surely a teaspoon in 5 pounds ain't gonna set off and salt alerts.


Hey Rich, it all adds up. Although I haven't had a lot of luck with low sodium sausage, you know we all need to watch our salt intake a little better. Just for reference if you made 32, 2.5 oz sausages out of that 5 pounds of meat the cure #1 would give ya 172 mg. of sodium per dog. or about 7% of the recommended daily allowance.

I'm not disagreeing with ya .......just sayin.

Oh and nice to see ya here again.


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