# Salami... White mold and sticky cases??



## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

Hey all I made some salami earlier this week and now I'm fermenting it at 72° with bactoform T-SPX... Starting to get little bit of white speck mold and the cases are starting to get a little sticky...I know I read it in other places but this is what I'm looking for right? just leave this alone? Going to move it over to my drying chamber tomorrow as it's been 3.5 days fermenting.  I cured  a lot of sausage but never fermented any salami....

Thanks in advance h a e f f n k












r


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

What is the humidity?
Maybe 

 indaswamp
 can fill you in.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> What is the humidity?
> Maybe
> 
> indaswamp
> can fill you in.


80 to 90 ish... I keep opening the door ... Don't have any humidity controls on this fridge. Do have heat and cold control.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

The sticky stuff is yeast. 
Did you inoculate with mold culture or is the white mold natural?

Spacing looks to be a little tight to me, which could be the cause of the yeast bloom...humidity is likely 5-8% higher between the salamis. Try to get at least 1-1 1/2" spacing for better airflow.

Yeast usually shows up first, but if it is thick, just wipe it off with dilute vinegar solution and an old rag. Then reapply mold 600 culture.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

Some questions about your set up-
Are you leaving the door open while fermenting? What is the wood on the chamber floor for? And I would clean the floor, wipe it with some vinegar to clean it. It that dirt on the floor?

And what is the blemish on the salami on the right?


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> The sticky stuff is yeast.
> Did you inoculate with mold culture or is the white mold natural?
> 
> Spacing looks to be a little tight to me, which could be the cause of the yeast bloom...humidity is likely 5-8% higher between the salamis. Try to get at least 1-1 1/2" spacing for better airflow.
> ...


I just put in T-SPX in the meat and stuffed them , nothing on the outside of the casings.
Yes they are a bit tight and will move them to my curing box later today that is not 72F.  
This is the best I could come up with to ferment these at 72 F for 4 days in my basement.  I can definately smell some tang/lacto.    .This fridge is just a fermenting chamber that I use for beer usually, so I have heat/cold controlls, not humidity.

I am not trying to get anything to grow on them .. just want to be sure it is OK so far.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Some questions about your set up-
> Are you leaving the door open while fermenting? What is the wood on the chamber floor for? And I would clean the floor, wipe it with some vinegar to clean it. It that dirt on the floor?
> 
> And what is the blemish on the salami on the right?


No not open.  I just fan it and get some dry air and close it up... open every few hours, nothing scientific. Yes there is some dirt on the floor...

OK I can clean it up a bit... but again.. these sauasages are going to their longterm home soon.

There is nothing on the right sausage... it is a small sausage in front of a other longer ones.

thanks for the help  haeffnkr


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

More pics.
Overall I just wanted to know that this sausage is okay to continue to cure and dry?


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

This the long term home...
Already Have some summer sausage slim jim's and chorizoP in it.

Humidity controlled to pull in dry 36% air into the box.  Intake fan on the bottom and exhaust on the top.  Vented outside with an inline 4" vent fan.   Fan on the bottom to push dry air up run all the time to keep the air moving. 
 Stays in the 50s this time of year... pulls cold air off the concrete.  Basement temps about 65.


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> I just put in T-SPX in the meat and stuffed them , nothing on the outside of the casings.
> Yes they are a bit tight and will move them to my curing box later today that is not 72F.
> This is the best I could come up with to ferment these at 72 F for 4 days in my basement.  I can definately smell some tang/lacto.    .This fridge is just a fermenting chamber that I use for beer usually, so I have heat/cold controlls, not humidity.
> 
> I am not trying to get anything to grow on them .. just want to be sure it is OK so far.


What percentage of salt did you use in the mix? 
cure#1 or cure#2???


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

Wipe them with dilute vinegar. adjust the spacing in your chamber when you transfer. If you are not going to inoculate mold on the outside, the yeast may return. Thick yeast will inhibit moisture loss, and may contibute sour off flavor to the salami surface.
How much dextrose did you use? Did you check the final pH at the end of fermentation?


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> What percentage of salt did you use in the mix?
> cure#1 or cure#2???




3% the recipe says.  -  252 grams of kosher salt for 19.8 pounds of pork.
Used this recipe - https://tasteofartisan.com/homemade-salami-milano/    This recipe and the ingredients/amounts are similar to the Rytek Kutas salami recipe.  

I made 19.8 pounds and multiplied each ingredient by 9 to scale it up.  I added 6 grams of t-spx per a recommendation, so that is more than then 1 gram the recipe calls for.  

#2 Cure.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Wipe them with dilute vinegar. adjust the spacing in your chamber when you transfer. If you are not going to inoculate mold on the outside, the yeast may return. Thick yeast will inhibit moisture loss, and may contibute sour off flavor to the salami surface.
> How much dextrose did you use? Did you check the final pH at the end of fermentation?



20 grams of corn sugar and 30 grams of table sugar for 19.8 pounds and 6 grams of t-spx

No on the ph check.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

You should be good with those sugar additions for good fermentation. Roughly 0.22% Dextrose and 0.33% sugar (fructose). 
I use kilos when making salami, so much easier to scale everything.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

Should be good on the salt as well...


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

Looking at your chamber set up...
...so you are pulling in dry RH36% air into the chamber? What is the RH% inside the chamber?


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

I don’t see a humidifier?? RH inside chamber needs to be around 80%.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Looking at your chamber set up...
> ...so you are pulling in dry RH36% air into the chamber?



Yes, what ever the basement air is... stays mid 30s  ... right now it is 36%.  
I tried last year to put in a mini humidifier that was controller switched and it could not keep up with the demand.  I just run the vent fans now and it is working great now, I have had it going for 10 days now.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> I don’t see a humidifier?? RH inside chamber needs to be around 80%.


Correct :)
Got that set right now to stay between 86 and 87... will bump down as it gets dryer.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

OK, so you are using just the humidity from the meats then to keep RH% high. I am not that lucky.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> OK, so you are using just the humidity from the meats then to keep RH% high. I am not that lucky.


Yes.   In my experience with the box loaded up there is always enough humidity to keep it high as you want it.


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> Correct :)
> Got that set right now to stay between 86 and 87... will bump down as it gets dryer.


Just curious, how are you able to maintain 80% RH with no humidifier inside the chamber with RH of 36% as ambient outside?????? This can not be possible throughout the drying process. Please explain.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Just curious, how are you able to maintain 80% RH with no humidifier inside the chamber with RH of 36% as ambient outside?????? This can not be possible throughout the drying process. Please explain.


The moisture released from the sausages keeps the humidity up in such a small space....as long as you have enough product in there to produce the needed moisture.


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> The moisture released from the sausages keeps the humidity up in such a small space....as long as you have enough product in there to produce the needed moisture.




 indaswamp

That’s fine, and I understand. However, I live in a RH of 12-20%. I have tried this method. It works for the first week to 10 days. As the sausages dry, their moisture goes down. Thus releasing less humidity and therefore starting the dreaded dry ring on the sausage. It simply cannot be done this way in my experience. Umaidry is the only option besides a full fledged curing cabinet.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> indaswamp
> 
> That’s fine, and I understand. However, I live in a RH of 12-20%. I have tried this method. It works for the first week to 10 days. As the sausages dry, their moisture goes down. Thus releasing less humidity and therefore starting the dreaded dry ring on the sausage. It simply cannot be done this way in my experience. Umaidry is the only option besides a full fledged curing cabinet.


And I have to opposite problem....too much humidity. When warm humid air enters my chamber I get a humidity spike to +95%. Which is why advice for dry curing must be tailored to the environment where the person lives. There is no set one way to do it and what works in one area of the country may not work elsewhere.  I too have to have a full fledge curing cabinet, or restrict salami making to thin products that will dry fast.


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> And I have to opposite problem....too much humidity. When warm humid air enters my chamber I get a humidity spike to +95%. Which is why advice for dry curing must be tailored to the environment where the person lives. There is no set one way to do it and what works in one area of the country may not work elsewhere.  I too have to have a full fledge curing cabinet, or restrict salami making to thin products that will dry fast.


Agreed.
With the knowledge you have gained, what would you do in a ambient RH of 36%? Let them ride? Or feed them humidity as needed?


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

As long as RH% inside the chamber can be maintained 0.2-0.5 below Aw, then I would let them ride. If it drops below that then I would add a humidifier of some sort.

As an example, if the salami has lost 9% weight loss, then that is roughly  3% Aw or 0.03Aw. Assuming starting Aw is 0.96, then Aw @ 9% weight loss would be around 0.93Aw. So RH% should be 91%-87% for optimum drying....according to Marianski and other sources.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Just curious, how are you able to maintain 80% RH with no humidifier inside the chamber with RH of 36% as ambient outside?????? This can not be possible throughout the drying process. Please explain.



See the pics and let me know if you have more questions.

thanks haeffnkr









Inside basement temp and humidity  and outside conditions - is it cold snowing/raining now .

Inside chamber is it 50 degrees now with the cold air pulled from the concrete wall. - show in the above pic.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> And I have to opposite problem....too much humidity. When warm humid air enters my chamber I get a humidity spike to +95%. Which is why advice for dry curing must be tailored to the environment where the person lives. There is no set one way to do it and what works in one area of the country may not work elsewhere.  I too have to have a full fledge curing cabinet, or restrict salami making to thin products that will dry fast.



I live in Missouri , US  just west of St Louis MO.  - years ago before the weather got a bit hotter than it does now, we would make summer sausage , smoke it outside and leave it until it was ready about 6 weeks.  Some years it dried a bit too fast some years it was perfect.  It never got thrown out. :)  We hung it in late Jan and left it until mid March usually .  Now we  have an old converted walk in cooler that has works the same way as my smaller box.  We hang 500 to 1000 pounds in it - AC and Heat controlled to keep between 47 and 50  a few fans to circulate and dehumidifier set at 80 then 75 as it dries.  Works well.  We even smoke it now in the cooler with a pellets. 

I have a few friends who cure sausage in  plywood boxes set in their garages with no auto controls and the sausage is perfect. I have done it myself a few times with success as well.  A friend puts 100 pounds of 23 mm sausages in a 4x4x4 box with good success.   Garage temps are perfect in Jan thru Mid March in Missouri - 30 to 60.    Rainy days sometimes and sunny days sometimes.  Just put in a  Humidity gauge in the box and close or crack it during the day... night temp bring up the humidity and leave it open and watch the weather.  Sunny warm dry day in Feb.. close it or crack it to keep humidity from going to low too fast..   Cooler rainy days.. open it up.  It all averages out.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

Cleaned the salami up and got them hung in by drying box.   THANKS for all the help today.
I have been wanting to try salami for a couple years, hope it works out.  I have made tons of cured summer sausage though, yes tons.



 SmokinEdge
  you can better see the intake fan bottom right and the exhaust fan - top left to move the dryer air through the box as needed.  There are little louver vents on both fans.   Just some vinyl dryer vents.

Smells like heaven when you open the door :)


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> As long as RH% inside the chamber can be maintained 0.2-0.5 below Aw, then I would let them ride. If it drops below that then I would add a humidifier of some sort.
> 
> As an example, if the salami has lost 9% weight loss, then that is roughly  3% Aw or 0.03Aw. Assuming starting Aw is 0.96, then Aw @ 9% weight loss would be around 0.93Aw. So RH% should be 91%-87% for optimum drying....according to Marianski and other sources.



In a hostile dry environment such as 36% humidity or lower, this theory will not work. You cannot imagine the case hardening. The AW  inside the meat is not workable with serious case hardening. Once the case hardening happens, it’s impossible to drop the Aw. The meat will simply rot.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> In a hostile dry environment such as 36% humidity or lower, this theory will not work. You cannot imagine the case hardening. The AW  inside the meat is not workable with serious case hardening. Once the case hardening happens, it’s impossible to drop the Aw. The meat will simply rot.





 SmokinEdge
  You are saying my sausage will rot before it is ready?


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> In a hostile dry environment such as 36% humidity or lower, this theory will not work. You cannot imagine the case hardening. The AW  inside the meat is not workable with serious case hardening. Once the case hardening happens, it’s impossible to drop the Aw. The meat will simply rot.


I realize that would happen in a 36% humidity environment, but the RH% in his chamber is 87%. 



 haeffnkr
  , 
You may have to add more salami when the snack sticks are done just to maintain high humidity in your chamber.


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## indaswamp (Jan 31, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> SmokinEdge
> You are saying my sausage will rot before it is ready?


Yes, if severe case hardening occurs on a large enough diameter salami, it will stop losing moisture and rot from the inside out. That is why temp. and humidity are so important.


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Yes, if severe case hardening occurs on a large enough diameter salami, it will stop losing moisture and rot from the inside out. That is why temp. and humidity are so important.



that 


indaswamp said:


> I realize that would happen in a 36% humidity environment, but the RH% in his chamber is 87%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure ... will keep an eye on it and add a mini humidifier if that happens.


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## uncle eddie (Jan 31, 2021)

just a post to get me in the watch list....


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## haeffnkr (Jan 31, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Yes, if severe case hardening occurs on a large enough diameter salami, it will stop losing moisture and rot from the inside out. That is why temp. and humidity are so important.


My sausage is not going to case harden to the point it will rot because the humidity is not 36%. in my curing environment.
I agree that case hardening would happen if sausage was dried in a 36 % environment.

thanks for everything


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 1, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> My sausage is not going to case harden to the point it will rot because the humidity is not 36%. in my curing environment.
> I agree that case hardening would happen if sausage was dried in a 36 % environment.
> 
> thanks for everything


The box is full of fresh chubs right now. The RH outside the chamber is 37%. That air is circulating into the chamber to drop RH inside the cabinet. That’s perfect. However, you WILL run out of high humidity from the chubs most likely when you move to the cure chamber. You will most definitely have to have a humidifier in that chamber to finish the chubs with 75-80% humidity. That is my only point.


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## haeffnkr (Feb 1, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> The box is full of fresh chubs right now. The RH outside the chamber is 37%. That air is circulating into the chamber to drop RH inside the cabinet. That’s perfect. However, you WILL run out of high humidity from the chubs most likely when you move to the cure chamber. You will most definitely have to have a humidifier in that chamber to finish the chubs with 75-80% humidity. That is my only point.





 SmokinEdge

I am very impressed with your ability to tell me how my process is flawed.  The fact that you are doing it from several hundred miles away and have not met me, tasted my work, seen my setup and lived in my conditions makes it all the more miraculous.
I have supplied pictures, described my setup  and  wrote about past successful experiences but I now understand I will ultimately fail this time, as you have said, my theory will not work and my efforts will result in rotted meat.
 While I am saddened by your factual statement, I feel the wiser and have hopes of growing into a great sausage maker some day.  I greatly appreciate all the valuable knowledge you have shared.   The internet is a wonderful place to learn new things, especially in these trying times.  You sir, are truly an invaluable asset to this incredible forum.

thanks again  haeffnkr


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 1, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> SmokinEdge
> 
> I am very impressed with your ability to tell me how my process is flawed.  The fact that you are doing it from several hundred miles away and have not met me, tasted my work, seen my setup and lived in my conditions makes it all the more miraculous.
> I have supplied pictures, described my setup  and  wrote about past successful experiences but I now understand I will ultimately fail this time, as you have said, my theory will not work and my efforts will result in rotted meat.
> ...


Have a good day sir. You asked.


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## indaswamp (Feb 2, 2021)

A simple dish with a towel or rag hanging so the bottom is in the water will suffice to keep the humidity high if the need arises, but not as efficiently and a humidifier with a controller. It would be equivalent to the moisture being released from your salamis.


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## haeffnkr (Feb 2, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> A simple dish with a towel or rag hanging so the bottom is in the water will suffice to keep the humidity high if the need arises, but not as efficiently and a humidifier with a controller. It would be equivalent to the moisture being released from your salamis.



Great idea, thanks for your help!  

I will post some pics as things progress.

haeffnkr


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## indaswamp (Feb 2, 2021)

You can also weigh the initial weight, and track the weight loss. Salami should avg. 0.5-0.7% per day weight loss for even drying. It will lose more at the start of drying, and less towards the end, but should average out to 0.5-0.7%. If it is more than that then case hardening would be an issue. Use an accurate gram scale...


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## mike k. (Feb 3, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> Hey all I made some salami earlier this week and now I'm fermenting it at 72° with bactoform T-SPX... Starting to get little bit of white speck mold and the cases are starting to get a little sticky...I know I read it in other places but this is what I'm looking for right? just leave this alone? Going to move it over to my drying chamber tomorrow as it's been 3.5 days fermenting.  I cured  a lot of sausage but never fermented any salami....
> 
> Thanks in advance h a e f f n k
> 
> ...





indaswamp said:


> OK, so you are using just the humidity from the meats then to keep RH% high. I am not that lucky.


Here is the rule "green and white, it's alright,  pink and black send it back."  
There are several so called white molds that form on the skins of curing meat.  All have clear and positive advantages for being there.  They add a buttery/creamy taste to the meat when  sliced and consumed.   The white mold also acts as a protective layer warding off deadly pathogens such as e-coli, listeria, salmonella so on and so forth.   I buy these molds and dip my salami's, sausages and pepperoni's prior to hanging up to cure and dry.   I dry fresh cured meats at 58 to 65 degrees.  Anywhere closer to 80 - 110 can be lethal.   These are pathogen growth numbers especially if you are using starter cultures and not cooking the units.   I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry.   May not make sense to consider moisture as a important in the protocol for drying however almost every kind of stuffed casing product requires extended time to cure and dry to achieve a professional taste, texture and palatable product.     Drying to fast without humidity causes pitting, aeration, powdering, milling, casing separation, poor color and undesirable flavor enhancement.  If you can have a little patience let the mold go and it will cover the meat in total around a mil to 2 mils thick.   This just means you are doing better than most pro's.   
If you see green just spray vinegar on it and it dies.   You can easily wipe the green off.    I will not harm you unless you see pink or long fibers of grey extruding from a patch.  Even so just remove it anyway you feel secure and let the white mold take over.  
Here in the west of USA most folks run from white mold while most cultured easterners won't buy cure meats without the mold.  Why is this, I attribute it to the multi European culture 


haeffnkr said:


> More pics.
> Overall I just wanted to know that this sausage is okay to continue to cure and dry?
> 
> View attachment 482710
> View attachment 482711





haeffnkr said:


> Correct :)
> Got that set right now to stay between 86 and 87... will bump down as it gets dryer.


You need to be careful.  Any temp over 70 requires caution.  E-coli, Listeria, Salmonella, Botulism and other pantheons grow at a panic rate between 80 - 110 degrees F.   Plus what they love the most, humidity and you will one day hurt, sicken or kill someone.  That is avoidable with a little care and understanding. Exactly that 85 plus temp method killed an Arizona man after he ate what he thought was cured tasty meat. 
Cold curing meat is fun and rewarding if done right.  Beyond deadly if you don't know what your doing.  So just a few precautions and a little education and you can be a master at this safely.   
1.  55 to 69 degrees and your on the right path.   I give you this from 45 years of flawless cured meat manufacturing in my USDA facility.
2. 67% to 85% humidity and your product will mature professionally.       Need more moisture just set a pan or corning dish full of water under your product and that will up the numbers substantially.    Moisture is critical to slow the dry process.  Dry to fast and you will have pulpiness, particularization, poor color, powdering, granulating and just overall an undesirable finish to your product.   Make soup out of it or toss it.
3. Do not remove the white mold.   That white mold is an anti pathogen security blanket for your meat.   It stops other pathogens from attacking your product.   Keep this in your head permanently, " Green or white its alright, pink and black send it back!"  
The white mold starts as little spots and grows to cover the total surface of the skin (especially natural and or collagen casings).   
That white mold also tastes buttery and or creamy.  Once it is on the full skin it aids in the slowdown of drying for obvious reasons.  It can become  1 mil. - 3 mils thick.   
3. I have found the easy cheap and quality culture starter to use is simple encapsulated citric acid, (lemon juice dried)   
     Yes you can buy those 10 dollar packs of starter and they work but you don't need them.  
4.  2-3" salami should take as much as 6 weeks to cure and dry.   You got to get the moisture content down below 1% or it has to be refrigerated.  
Keep in mind we are talking about cold cure meat not cooked cured meats here.   Cooked and dried meats are another conversation for another session.  
5.  Avoid at all cost buying ground meat from the grocery store.   You have no clue what is in it and what has touched it.  All ground meats at the retail level are for secondary processing by cooking before use.   Always buy solid sections of meat and cut grind a prep yourself of by a trusted person who has the experience of preparing the meat for your particular purpose.   Frozen meat never produce quality end products.  Always start with fresh meat.   Commercial pepperoni and sausage companies commonly use frozen meats and you can always taste the results.  Just to address this so you know what is what. 
When meat is frozen the micro capillary cells that hold the plasma and liquid proteins etc. burst from freezing, fluids digress from the structural chambers in the meat and you have a degraded integrity base to start with.   Everybody wants their creation to look, taste, show and taste like a deli bought product.  There is no luck in the end result.   Follow a couple rules and you will have top notch results.   
Always prepare your product with 42 - 45 degree chilled meat, never let it become warm during mixing, spicing or stuffing.   
Try to keep ingredients of any kind under 4% so that you do not end up with a product that any given spice is over pronounced.
Ingredients, preparation, process, caution and patience is what it takes.   Oh, I forgot!  Write every part of what you do down including start/finish dates, times and temps, adjustments, mistakes, thoughts of changes like spices, fat %, meat blends, all your ingredients, take photos and never, never, never stop asking questions.    
Never allow hanging meats to touch one another.  Spacing is good at any distance of 1/8" apart or more.  Just so they can have air pass around them.  You will know when you product is done when is hard to the touch and vivid and semi transparent when you hold a thin slice up to the light.   Any dull color in the center says it is not finished and needs to hang longer.   You can hang it for over a year without issues.  Some cured meats like prosciutto I leave for 24 months or more.
Once you think you think you know everything and have it 100% in the bag, burn down your smoke house and quit because that is when mistakes will happen the fun and challenges end.  
If you do not have a moisture activity tester ($700.00 plus) you can check the moisture content an easier way.  Weigh a thin slice of your meat on a gram scale. (E-bay $10.00)  Weigh a small zip lock bag.    Put the slice in the bag, microwave for 15 seconds, remove the slice and look at the water in the bag.  Weigh the bag or the slice and determine plus or minus what water dissipated. More than a drop or two in the corner of the bag show to much water, more drying needed.  This is a simple easy free way to check water activity.  I you leave the microwave on more than 15 seconds you will melt the fat and that is not what we are measuring.   Also, check PH levels.   To high or to low is no good.   You want around 5.1  - 5.4.   for salami.
In conclusion the pictures  you show exhibit a nice product start. Again do not worry about the mold.  It is normal and shows your on the right path.   In a few weeks you will be proud or disappointed based on what do from here.    Use your smarts and you will be making all kinds of cured meats.   If I can help you advance I'll do it for anyone that have pride and ambition.   I have around 10 million pounds of all kinds of cured meat results to my credit.  Not all I would rate 5 star.   Even us Artisans screw up.
Since I am married, I at least have someone to blame............      Peace to all that love what we do, Michael


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## indaswamp (Feb 3, 2021)

mike k. said:


> I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry.


50% humidity? Is that a typo?


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 3, 2021)

mike k. said:


> Here is the rule "green and white, it's alright,  pink and black send it back."
> There are several so called white molds that form on the skins of curing meat.  All have clear and positive advantages for being there.  They add a buttery/creamy taste to the meat when  sliced and consumed.   The white mold also acts as a protective layer warding off deadly pathogens such as e-coli, listeria, salmonella so on and so forth.   I buy these molds and dip my salami's, sausages and pepperoni's prior to hanging up to cure and dry.   I dry fresh cured meats at 58 to 65 degrees.  Anywhere closer to 80 - 110 can be lethal.   These are pathogen growth numbers especially if you are using starter cultures and not cooking the units.   I also keep a 50% humidity in the chamber/room to cure and dry.   May not make sense to consider moisture as a important in the protocol for drying however almost every kind of stuffed casing product requires extended time to cure and dry to achieve a professional taste, texture and palatable product.     Drying to fast without humidity causes pitting, aeration, powdering, milling, casing separation, poor color and undesirable flavor enhancement.  If you can have a little patience let the mold go and it will cover the meat in total around a mil to 2 mils thick.   This just means you are doing better than most pro's.
> If you see green just spray vinegar on it and it dies.   You can easily wipe the green off.    I will not harm you unless you see pink or long fibers of grey extruding from a patch.  Even so just remove it anyway you feel secure and let the white mold take over.
> Here in the west of USA most folks run from white mold while most cultured easterners won't buy cure meats without the mold.  Why is this, I attribute it to the multi European culture
> ...


Hell’ofa introduction Mike. Welcome to the forum.
How do you manage case hardening, or dry ring at such low humidity?


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## indaswamp (Feb 3, 2021)

Thank you for posting your insight. It is very much appreciated. But I have a few questions.


> 55 to 69 degrees and your on the right path.   I give you this from 45 years of flawless cured meat manufacturing in my USDA facility.



How are you controlling the growth of Staphylococcus aureus allowing the room temp. to rise to 69*F?


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## indaswamp (Feb 3, 2021)

mike k. said:


> I have found the easy cheap and quality culture starter to use is simple encapsulated citric acid, (lemon juice dried)


Did I read that right? Are you saying there are live cultures on ECA? or are you using ECA to lower the pH of the product?


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## mike k. (Feb 3, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> Hey all I made some salami earlier this week and now I'm fermenting it at 72° with bactoform T-SPX... Starting to get little bit of white speck mold and the cases are starting to get a little sticky...I know I read it in other places but this is what I'm looking for right? just leave this alone? Going to move it over to my drying chamber tomorrow as it's been 3.5 days fermenting.  I cured  a lot of sausage but never fermented any salami....
> 
> Thanks in advance h a e f f n k
> 
> ...


Sorry, I failed to mention the sticky cases.   Often the higher temp curing and drying can cause gelatin or just plain moisture passing through the collagen allowing for residual proteins to collect on the outside of the skin.   Will disappear with drying and or  you can if you feel like it, use food grade alcohol or vinegar and a towel to wipe it off.   Always be careful when touching your product not to transfer pathogens to the skins.
Consider latex non powdered gloves when handling your salami.    Also use a clean cotton sheet to cover your salami to keep dust and foreign   floating particles off your product.   Helps even slow down drying as well.   Crap in the air can cause issues you don't need.  take care,  Michael Kemsky


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 3, 2021)

indaswamp

stay tuned.


mike k. said:


> I have around 10 million pounds of all kinds of cured meat results to my credit.


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## indaswamp (Feb 3, 2021)

10 million pounds is a lot of meats.... lots of experience with that number.


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## mike k. (Feb 3, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Thank you for posting your insight. It is very much appreciated. But I have a few questions.
> 
> 
> How are you controlling the growth of Staphylococcus aureus allowing the room temp. to rise to 69*F?


I apologize for not being more detail in processing.   I always use sodium nitrate 4oz. /100lb. ratio (not nitrite) as part of the pathogen prevention process in the initial mixing start phase.  I also make 2500 lb minimal batches and lab test after the initial first phase of curing(10 days) for all common pathogens.  I get a full panel done for $160.00 which is nothing in the realm of things considering the assurances.    My family has been dry and cold curing since 1881.   Our family did this in Russia until we fled in  post WW1.   80 years in Ontario Canada, and then here in California to this current date.
Only once  I tossed a full batch when black mold appeared on a pork Prosciutto loin after 75 days in.  Could have maybe isolated the loin but I chose to dump the 2000 plus lbs. instead.   Tested positive for Listeria.
  Michael


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 3, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> 10 million pounds is a lot of meats.... lots of experience with that number.


yes sir. I’m pulling up a chair.


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## indaswamp (Feb 3, 2021)

Are you typically making fast fermented salamis, or do you make any Southern European Slow fermented products?


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## mike k. (Feb 3, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> What percentage of salt did you use in the mix?
> cure#1 or cure#2???


I might also have mentioned if you do not care for the mold just dip your salami in a Potassium Sorbate solution.  Doesn't have to be strong just 2 tbsp per gallon in a bin.  Let it sit just 1 minute and then hang.   Mold will not grow.   Also can use celery seed powder same ratio to stop mold growth.   Celery seed powder is natural Potassium Sorbate agent.


indaswamp said:


> Are you typically making fast fermented salamis, or do you make any Southern European Slow fermented products?


My heritage is Croatian/Polish/Russian.  My family specialized in smoked prosciutto, sausage, jerky and pepperoni and all other european style meats.  Family was poor and had no refrigeration available to them.   So everything had to be shelf stable.  I really hate modified processing to speed up what slow does better.   For eg. I make prosciutto out of pork loins.   Remove all the fat and brine them (usually 500lb batches) for 90 to 120 days and then hang them for a year or more.   80% humidity and in a zero light 50 degree sealed air circulated room.   4 months at 80%, 2 months at 60%  and 6 months at 40%.  Then pulled and rolled in maple syrup, black pepper and sweet smoked paprika.   Hung at 69 - 71 degrees until water activity measures .085%.  Shrinkage is usually 70% to 77% by weight.   Of coarse beef and poultry vary from that number.   Often they mold out white/orange and are really picture perfect and delicious.   Cost is around 5 bucks a lb. to make and retails out around $160.00 to 275.00 lb.   Asians buy it all a year in advance.  Mostly Japan.   They just love it.    Negative is time to make it.   We call it 1000 day Prosciutto.   In the factory here we make a average 3000 to 4000 lb of sausage a day.   Most of it is fresh pork sausage.   Made from pork shoulder.   Very little goes through the dry cycle process.   It's a matter of time and space.   I have 50000 square feet of floor and it is crammed most of the time.   Would love to go back to limited edition slow process quality meats but I just can't get there.   Michael


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## mike k. (Feb 3, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Did I read that right? Are you saying there are live cultures on ECA? or are you using ECA to lower the pH of the product?


I find that Encapsulated Citric Acid will give you that twang you want in smoked sausages and still allow for use of SN for risk management.   So I miss wrote buy not being clear.  If I am just dry cold curing I use CA not encapsulated.   Safety is first and using standard levels of SN generally kills the live starters bacterias unless I use two part processing.   Yes we do regulate PH with CA but not exclusively.   We use lot of different natural ingredients mimic starters as flavor goes can regulate PH and manufacture timely for sales demands.   It's unfortunate but we are all being pressured to replicate old processes in a modified way and still be eatable. 
If a client wants a cultured flavor we use live starters and shelf it for a week or so in the cooler then add cures seasonings and process it thereafter.      Apologize for non clarity, okay.  Michael


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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

Wow. What a wealth of knowledge. I can certainly appreciate the need to modify methods to meet consumer demand on a faster scheduling. That is a necessity with commercial production. The home producer does not have those time constraints and can afford to invest the time to make dry cured meats on a slower schedule like they do the old way.



> 80% humidity and in a zero light 50 degree sealed air circulated room.   4 months at 80%, 2 months at 60%  and 6 months at 40%.



Very interesting you are able to pull the humidity so low to 40% for so long....


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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

mike k. said:


> Safety is first and using standard levels of SN generally kills the live starters bacterias unless I use two part processing


I'm assuming SN is sodium nitrate? I realize that sodium nitrite and nitrate will inhibit the growth of  Clostridium botulinum , Salmonella, and coliform bacteria. To my knowledge, it has no effect on the starter culture bacteria used to process dry cured meats nor staphylococcus aureus.


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## TNJAKE (Feb 4, 2021)




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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

M
 Mike
... OK, so you are doing professional testing for bad stuff. I guess that would be standard practice for a commercial producer. From my understanding, even with the sodium nitrites and nitrates, a 2LOG growth in Staph. Aureus is not uncommon. but it can not produce toxin once Aw 0.93 is achieved.
The home processor more than likely will not send product out for professional testing so with the exception of fermentation, where degree hour charts must be followed, the product must be kept under 60*F as added protection against rapid Staph. Aureus growth and toxin production.


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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

Tagging this for 

 chef jimmyj
  to read....I know he is fascinated by the dry curing process...and might have some perspective on the safety side...


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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

M
 mike k.


Would really love to see some pictures of some of your stuff!!


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 4, 2021)

Reading this reminds me of my days in Electronics. Here I am a Hardware Guy listening to a couple of Software IT Guys. 
I understand whats going on but got nothing to add. Everything I know on the subject has already been discussed and/or resolved. ...JJ


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## indaswamp (Feb 4, 2021)

haeffnkr said:


> A friend puts 100 pounds of 23 mm sausages in a 4x4x4 box with good success. Garage temps are perfect in Jan thru Mid March in Missouri - 30 to 60. Rainy days sometimes and sunny days sometimes. Just put in a Humidity gauge in the box and close or crack it during the day... night temp bring up the humidity and leave it open and watch the weather. Sunny warm dry day in Feb.. close it or crack it to keep humidity from going to low too fast.. Cooler rainy days.. open it up. It all averages out.


23mm salami is very forgiving and easy to dry. Very hard to get case hardening because the diameter is so small. The larger you go, the more case hardening becomes a problem.


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## haeffnkr (Feb 4, 2021)

Checked my sausage today, was going to throw it all out, to my surprise it was still looking, smelling and tasting good.
The ends of the 23 mm dry a bit fast and funky.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2021)

Looks like a tad of dry rim, but not bad. Looking back at your chamber set up, I see what looks to be two computer fans on the floor of the chamber. Are those running continuously? If so, what speed? Salami needs less and less airflow as it dries. If the airflow is more than 4 inches per second than I would try to slow it down or turn them off. Too much airflow can cause dry rim/case hardening even if temp. and humidity are optimum.


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## haeffnkr (Feb 5, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Looks like a tad of dry rim, but not bad. Looking back at your chamber set up, I see what looks to be two computer fans on the floor of the chamber. Are those running continuously? If so, what speed? Salami needs less and less airflow as it dries. If the airflow is more than 4 inches per second than I would try to slow it down or turn them off. Too much airflow can cause dry rim/case hardening even if temp. and humidity are optimum.




They are computer usb fans and yes they were a bit to fast... I turned them to low a few days ago, but the bottom of the 23 mm already dried too fast.  I was thinking about putting them on the top of the box to force down moist air vs push up and dry out the bottom of the small sausages too fast?


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2021)

IMO, if you have a fan that turns on to push dry cold air in every now and then, you probably don't need the fans to circulate air. That one fan will move enough air often enough.


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