# Seeking beginner help...



## wes w (Sep 13, 2015)

I am aware this is a page for  recipes, but  I just need help.

As I am trying to advance my ability to cook.  I have most things smoked under control but,   I am struggling with homemade bread.  

The only thing I have successfully made are rolls.   I have tried bread 3 times with different results each time.

First time I just got in a hurry.   Second time I had the most awesome looking bread at the final proof stage, but they fell terribly with I transfered them to the peel.   Yesterday,  I ended up with flat loaves of bread.  When I scored them going in the oven, they fell flat as a flitter.   I will not give up on this.  I'll feed every damn bird in the country before I give up.  I want to make bread like I see on the recipes!!  

I use KA flour and fresh yeast.   Would the cool temps yesterday have had an effect?   We had a high of 60F today.

I didn't take any picture of any of them.  Any advice would be awesome.   I  will keep practicing  in hopes of figuring it out.   

The only thing that I have prefected is pizza.  Simply awesome!

My oven.

Thanks in advance.













IMG_20150627_115934173_HDR.jpg



__ wes w
__ Sep 13, 2015


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## daveomak (Sep 13, 2015)

Hey Wes, susieqz is one helluva bread maker....  PM her.....   Have her explain bread making on the open forum all to see.....


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 14, 2015)

If you let it over proof, it will fall because the gluten structure is weakened from being stretched. That being said, a long, slow proof in cooler Temps produces a lot of flavor. Also more yeast than what your recipe calls for could make it rise too quickly. Also, what kind of flour is it? KA is really good flour, I wouldn't use all purpose flour, you need the higher gluten in bread flour to develop structure. Also make sure you are adequately kneading, that also develops gluten. The recipes that don't have you kneading rely on long, slow rises. One thing I would definitely try is not attempting to transfer your dough AFTER your final proof. Whatever you want to bake it on or in its where your bread needs to do its final rise. The structure of your dough is very fragile at that point.  Also, score them before that final rise. 

Keep baking, eventually you will know by touch how your dough is behaving. My husband gets mad when I bake bread cuz he can't stop eating it lol.


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## JckDanls 07 (Sep 14, 2015)

areallynicegirl said:


> If you let it over proof, it will fall because the gluten structure is weakened from being stretched. That being said, a long, slow proof in cooler Temps produces a lot of flavor. Also more yeast than what your recipe calls for could make it rise too quickly. Also, what kind of flour is it? KA is really good flour, I wouldn't use all purpose flour, you need the higher gluten in bread flour to develop structure. Also make sure you are adequately kneading, that also develops gluten. The recipes that don't have you kneading rely on long, slow rises. One thing I would definitely try is not attempting to transfer your dough AFTER your final proof. Whatever you want to bake it on or in its where your bread needs to do its final rise. The structure of your dough is very fragile at that point.  Also, score them before that final rise.
> 
> Keep baking, eventually you will know by touch how your dough is behaving. My husband gets mad when I bake bread cuz he can't stop eating it lol.



Now that's a really nice girl ... :biggrin:


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 14, 2015)

JckDanls 07 said:


> Now that's a really nice girl ... :biggrin:



Thanks lol :yahoo:


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 14, 2015)

areallynicegirl said:


> If you let it over proof, it will fall because the gluten structure is weakened from being stretched. That being said, a long, slow proof in cooler Temps produces a lot of flavor. Also more yeast than what your recipe calls for could make it rise too quickly. Also, what kind of flour is it? KA is really good flour, I wouldn't use all purpose flour, you need the higher gluten in bread flour to develop structure. Also make sure you are adequately kneading, that also develops gluten. The recipes that don't have you kneading rely on long, slow rises. One thing I would definitely try is not attempting to transfer your dough AFTER your final proof. Whatever you want to bake it on or in its where your bread needs to do its final rise. The structure of your dough is very fragile at that point. Also, score them before that final rise.
> 
> Keep baking, eventually you will know by touch how your dough is behaving. My husband gets mad when I bake bread cuz he can't stop eating it lol.


 This is all great info but I suspect Wes is looking to bake directly on the deck, better bottom crust. The key to placing the bread in the oven, without deflating, is...Don't over raise the loaves. Make sure there is plenty of lubrication on the peel. Coax the loaves off the peel, don't jerk the peel hard like placing a Pizza. My first job was in a bakery at 14. I also trained with two top bakers in Philadelphia and York PA.

Here are some general instructions, procedure may vary by bread style...Mix the ingredients, KA Bread Flour ( Blue and White bag) and Knead by hand or use a Dough Hook to knead for a minimum of 10 minutes. The dough will be smooth as a childs cheek and not sticky or maybe just slightly tacky, depends on Formula. Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turn to coat, cover with plastic and refer over night. Next day, deflate and divide the dough into the desired portions. Knead a few times and form the loaves, making sure to Stretch the surface taught and smooth. gives a prettier crust. Lay the loaves, seam side down on a cornmeal or semolina dusted peel and Cover with a light weight, non-terry, cotton tea towel and let rise in a warm place, until slightly more than doubled. When ready, Dock the loaves with a very sharp knife or razor blade, gently slide the bread into the oven and bake accordingly. If you want a Crisp crust you need to add steam and cover the opening to retain the steam.. You can you can have a small pan of boil water in the oven, add the loaves, and leave the pan in for the first 5-10 minutes. You can spritz into the oven periodically with a fine mist, too heavy or wet may crack a thin deck from thermal shock, for the first 5 minutes. Or spritz the loaves lightly, just before placing in the oven. Too much water will make the dough stick to the peel and/or possibly damage the oven deck. The final IT in the center should be 200°F...JJ

Here is an interesting video. See the dough texture and how to get the loaves in the oven...


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 14, 2015)

Well I guess I missed that, I didn't mean to lead him astray lol. 
Wes, whatever chef tells you to do is what you gotta do. I never bake in a deck oven, I only have a regular oven :(


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 14, 2015)

areallynicegirl said:


> Well I guess I missed that, I didn't mean to lead him astray lol.
> Wes, whatever chef tells you to do is what you gotta do. I never bake in a deck oven, I only have a regular oven :(


You gave great advice!!!   Here is the tip off...Quote: "  they fell terribly with I transfered them to the peel."...JJ


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 15, 2015)

Good grief. ........that's not even fair!  We had a deck oven at school, which was awesome. I love baking bread, I just don't have the time I used to. I love doing pastries but it's much funner with the sheeter lol. I love laminated doughs! 

anyways, now that his thread is hijacked, hopefully Wes has some success!


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## wes w (Sep 16, 2015)

Ahh,  the Honorable Chef JJ has graced my thread!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






   Thank you sir!

And a really  awesome beautiful  lady to whom I have never meet!     :-)  

Can't forget Dave!    If it smokes, this man can guide you!  

Ok,  I don't know anything about fancy ovens,  I just want to make a good loaf of hearth bread.  

One,  I always thought that dough needed to be warm to rise proper.   From what I'm reading,  I am wrong.    I usually get my starter going of a evening and make my bread the next morning.   I also have a problem with dough spreading as it rises.   I've  watched countless videos and they just flop the dough on the peel and run it in the oven.   I know I probably need the fancy clothes they use to hold the dough proper, but for now  I have to work with what I have.  I'm working on the rustic bread.   

My fear of putting dough on the peel for the final proof is that it will stick.   My understanding is if I put corn meal on it, it won't stick even after 2 hrs?   Cool!   Question.   Do I use my wood peel, or the fancy medal peel for final proof, or does it matter?   

Love my oven and I want to learn to do many things with it.  I built it very heavy to absorb the heat and hold it.  Pizza is just the awesome perk I have for a wood fired oven.   

I'm open for any advice for a noob.    I have researched "The Fresh Loaf" forum.  Thats where I got my recipe for pizza dough and rustic bread.   

Would elevation have anything to do with bread proofing.   I'm at 3250ft.    

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!  

I hope everyone is having a great day!


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 16, 2015)

Rustic breads are another animal. They are Slack, wet doughs and have to be handled with care, notice the baskets in the video. The crumb is open and full of gas without a lot of structure to support a lot of handling. Many of the guys at The Fresh Loaf have forgotten more than I know and that is a much better place to ask question. I go to them when I am in trouble. I can get folks through Baking 101 but what you are looking for is best handled by the folks that have done it a lot...I must Bow out gracefully...JJ


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## rabbithutch (Sep 16, 2015)

Wes W said:


> I am aware this is a page for  recipes, but  I just need help.
> 
> As I am trying to advance my ability to cook.  I have most things smoked under control but,   I am struggling with homemade bread.
> 
> ...




Hey, Wes!

When did you build the bread oven?  Did you do a photo essay?  Where have I been?


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 17, 2015)

Awwwwwww thanks Wes


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 17, 2015)

areallynicegirl said:


> Good grief. ........that's not even fair! We had a deck oven at school, which was awesome. I love baking bread, I just don't have the time I used to. I love doing pastries but it's much funner with the sheeter lol. I love laminated doughs!
> 
> anyways, now that his thread is hijacked, hopefully Wes has some success!


Nicegirl, You are correct and the Hijack was my fault, got too excited about Bread and the Ovens. I apologize to Wes and anybody reading this. I edited the posts...JJ


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## areallynicegirl (Sep 17, 2015)

Lol


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## wes w (Sep 20, 2015)

> Hey, Wes!
> 
> When did you build the bread oven? Did you do a photo essay? Where have I been?


Its over on the brick smoker page.   Not a lot of detail but I did post the build.

Maybe you just need to move back to NC.  :-)


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## wes w (Sep 20, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Rustic breads are another animal. They are Slack, wet doughs and have to be handled with care, notice the baskets in the video. The crumb is open and full of gas without a lot of structure to support a lot of handling. Many of the guys at The Fresh Loaf have forgotten more than I know and that is a much better place to ask question. I go to them when I am in trouble. I can get folks through Baking 101 but what you are looking for is best handled by the folks that have done it a lot...I must Bow out gracefully...JJ


Great video.   Thanks.   

I'd really like to have some of those baskets but they are really expensive.    Thanks for the input.   

Sir, you can high jack any thread I start.   I enjoy your wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it.  Thank you!


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## rabbithutch (Sep 20, 2015)

Wes W said:


> Its over on the brick smoker page.   Not a lot of detail but I did post the build.
> 
> Maybe you just need to move back to NC.  :-)



Well, let's see.  Do you have an 'in' with Old Crow Medicine Show?  Ask them if they need a fat, OLD roadie who speaks Tar Heel and I'll move back.

Great job on the bread oven!  Looking forward to seeing the loaves that come out of it.  Is that Watauga County 'shine or Wilkes County?  I've had the latter and it was good stuff.

:yahoo:


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## wes w (Sep 20, 2015)

rabbithutch said:


> Wes W said:
> 
> 
> > Its over on the brick smoker page.   Not a lot of detail but I did post the build.
> ...


Oh, my good sir,  this is Ashe county shine.    Just gotta know which hollar to go up....  :-)


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## thickstrings (Sep 25, 2015)

What I do I my brick oven is to let the bread proof on cookie sheets....then, just put the sheet in the oven... Then cuz I am lazy, I don't have to be that careful of the ash on the floor.... Spread the coals  out over the floor and close the door to "soak" the heat in the oven...The bread will get  hard bottom if the floor is hot enough....400-500 .Get a laser therm. to check the floor temp... also as mentioned, get a spray bottle of water  and spray in the oven after the bread is in.  I generally use KA bread flour and do a 24 hr. slow rise. I have had trouble with metal peels and raw dough.... I'll use the wooden ones with flour ,and corn meal. Do you have a door?  you need a door....ps....You have really nice oven...nice detail...


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## wes w (Sep 25, 2015)

thickstrings said:


> What I do I my brick oven is to let the bread proof on cookie sheets....then, just put the sheet in the oven... Then cuz I am lazy, I don't have to be that careful of the ash on the floor.... Spread the coals  out over the floor and close the door to "soak" the heat in the oven...The bread will get  hard bottom if the floor is hot enough....400-500 .Get a laser therm. to check the floor temp... also as mentioned, get a spray bottle of water  and spray in the oven after the bread is in.  I generally use KA bread flour and do a 24 hr. slow rise. I have had trouble with metal peels and raw dough.... I'll use the wooden ones with flour ,and corn meal. Do you have a door?  you need a door....ps....You have really nice oven...nice detail...


Thanks for the input.   

LOL, I'm on my second door.   I forgot to take the coals out one night after pizza.  I was planning on bread the next morning....  I woke up to no door, but the oven was still 400F plus.  

I do have a laser therm.   It was quite the investment, but I convinced my wife that it was needed.  :-)

We now use KA flour for everything.   A noticeable difference in the pizza dough.  

For some reason,  I have always thought that dough needed to rise in a warm environment.     Next time, I'll just let it rise at room temp or frig.   

I'm excited about learning to use our oven.   I built it heavy for bread.    Its funny, I'm not having problems with the oven, its the dough I can't get right.   

The plus side is, bread is a very cheap to experiment with.    

I was planning on pizza and bread this week-end, but the weather is a washout.    Maybe next week-end.


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