# 40° - 140° in 4 hours discussion



## diggingdogfarm

alblancher said:


> if you keep it cold and get it to 140 degrees internal temp within 4 hours when cooking you do not need cure.



What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
I have never been able to find one.


~Martin


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## pineywoods

DiggingDogFarm said:


> What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
> I have never been able to find one.
> ~Martin


If you follow the rules for fresh ground meat according to the USDA I would think that would be an "authoritative reference"


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## diggingdogfarm

Pineywoods said:


> If you follow the rules for fresh ground meat according to the USDA I would think that would be an "authoritative reference"




Okay, can you please point me to that particular rule, because, as I said above, I've never been able to find it.




~Martin


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## pops6927

DiggingDogFarm said:


> What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
> I have never been able to find one.
> ~Martin


I have researched this and there is two references that are given:

1) from:

Kerri Harris (Coordinator)

HACCP Alliance National Coordinator

Texas A&M University

120 Rosenthal

2471 TAMU

College Station, TX 77843-2471

Phone: (979) 862-3643

Fax: (979) 862-3075

[email protected]

 Kerri B. Harris <[email protected]> wrote:

The following information is provided by FSIS in Appendix A.  Hopefully, it will help you determine the come up times for the temperatures that you are using.

Heating Deviations and Slow Come Up Time

Determining the appropriate disposition of products following heating deviations can be even more

difficult than determining the disposition of product after a cooling deviation. Heating deviations, which most

often involve slow come-up time or an inordinate dwell time within the optimum temperature range for

microorganism growth, can foster the multiplication of many pathogens. This multiplication sometimes can be

so prodigious that even recooking may be ineffective in rendering the product safe. Also, certain toxigenic

bacteria can release toxins into the product. Some of these toxins, such as those of Staphylococcus aureus, are

extremely heat stable and are not inactivated by normal recooking temperatures.

Further, the sampling of product following a heating deviation may not yield sufficient information to

determine the safety of the product in question. Heating deviations can favor the multiplication of many types

of bacteria. It would be difficult and expensive to sample for all of them.

Depending on the circumstances, establishments may want to use computer modeling to estimate the

relative multiplication of bacteria. For example, in a past incident involving an extreme heating deviation,

product was put in an oven in which the temperature was inadvertently set to 95°F for about 12 hours.

Computer modeling was easily applied in this case because much of the dwell time was at one temperature.

The Agency determined that within a 6 hour time frame (with other growth conditions assumed to be

favorable), the relative multiplication of many pathogens of concern could have exceeded five logs. Clearly

the product could not be salvaged by reprocessing and was therefore destroyed.

Under changing conditions of temperature, however, computer modeling becomes more difficult. One

approach is to average lag/log times over small increments such as 5° and add these times to get an

approximation of possible total relative growth over a larger increment of time. Establishments must keep in

mind that the population of bacteria before processing is generally unknown and that assumptions in the high

range often are used as input parameters in the modeling.

Establishments should ultimately rely upon the expertise of a processing authority to determine the

severity of heating deviations and subsequent appropriate disposition of the product in question*. Dwell times*

*of greater than 6 hours in the 50°F to 130°F range should be viewed as especially hazardous, as this*

*temperature range can foster substantial growth of many pathogens of concern.* And, a knowledge of the

specific product and factors that would favor or inhibit the growth of various bacteria is essential.

2) from:

Meat and Poultry Hotline [email protected]

Good morning,

Thank you for writing the USDA's Meat and Poultry Hotline.

*We recommend consumers not leaving any perishable food (including raw meat) in the "Danger Zone" more than two hours. Use an appliance thermometer to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process. If you are concern that your smoker is taking too long to reach 225 F, check with the manufacturer.*

For more information about Smoking Meat and Poultry, visit http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp

Sincerely,

Webmaster

USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline

Because of the conflict, I wrote back to both resources and re-questioned, and received this:

Reply 1:

[email protected]

to me, Susan.Tennyson, Thomas.Lansford, Tony.Martin, Adam.Buuck

Dear pops6927:

Thank you for your inquiry requesting supporting documentation for the maximum time for a smoker environment temperature zone to get the meat from 40° to 140° safely.

Short Answer:  To avoid even the possible appearance of a conflict of interest, employees associated with the Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program (State Program) cannot provide supporting documentation to meet regulatory requirements.  On the other hand, the State Program provides a listing in Appendix A of the attached Consumer Guide  as assistance for you; we do not represent this as an “approved list,” and we do not assume any responsibility for the actions or inactions of any Person in this list.  Additionally, using an internet search engine for the term “Process Authority” may provide sources that may be of help to you.

Discussion:

The Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program (State Program) is responsible for regulating the livestock slaughter and meat/poultry processing industry.  State Program employees verify that establishments meet regulatory requirements, and we document and report any noncompliance that may occur.  To avoid real or even the appearance of a potential conflict of interest, we prohibit State Program employees from advising, advocating, directing, endorsing, proposing, recommending, suggesting, or in any other manner telling establishments the “how-to” aspects of constructing, operating, and maintaining facilities or operations to meet any regulatory requirement.

Establishments are responsible for constructing, operating, maintaining, etc. their facilities and operations to comply with regulatory requirements.  We cannot accept the following statement as supporting documentation for any of the establishment’s decisions: “I did it that way because that is who/ what/ when/ where/ how the State Program employee told me to do it.”

On the other hand, State Program employees will provide assistance to establishments by explaining regulatory requirements, providing contact information of groups that may assist the establishment, providing information on training opportunities, etc.

The State Program provides a listing in Appendix A of the attached Consumer Guide  as assistance for you; we do not represent this as an “approved list,” and we do not assume any responsibility for the actions or inactions of any Person in this list.  Additionally, using an internet search engine for the term “Process Authority” may provide sources that may be of help to you.

Sincerely,

Dr. Howard C. "Butch" Johnson, DVM, MS, DACVPM

Director, Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program and

Manager, Meat Safety Assurance Unit

(512) 834-6760   FAX: (512) 834-6763

[email protected]

Visit our Website:  http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/msa/

Mail Address:                                                             Direct Delivery Physical Address: (USPS Mail NOT ACCEPTED)

Meat Safety Assurance Unit - Mail Code 1872        Meat Safety Assurance Unit - Mail Code 1872

Texas Department of State Health Services            Texas Department of State Health Services

PO Box 149347                                                          8407 Wall Street

Austin, TX 78714-9347                                              Austin, TX  78754

reply 2:

Meat and Poultry Hotline [email protected]

Good morning Mr. Fassett,

The USDA’s 2-hour rule is more conservative than the guidelines directed at foodservice or the food industry, to allows for extra caution towards consumers handling foods at home. The guidelines used by food service are set by your state health department. Each State makes its own rules, often based on FDA’s retail model food code.

You can access the Food Code at http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/default.htm

If you would to know the guidelines used by processors under FSIS’ inspection, you may want to check with our Policy Development Division, at 1-800-233-3935.

Sincerely,

Webmaster

USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline

As interpreted by our Safety Expert:








Chef JimmyJ 
WHAT THIN BLUE SMOKE!?!






 
offline

3,394 Posts. Joined 5/2011
Location: Harrisburg PA but born and raised a Jersey Boy.
Select All Posts By This User

This is my " Go To " statement...

A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is any other more specific reference that can be provided, please post.  Otherwise, we will generally recognize the '40° to 140° in 4 hour' rule as reasonable and accurate between a stated minimum and a stated maximum by professional authorities and will adopt such a rule as standard to this forum.


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## diggingdogfarm

Okay, I have seen those, as well as a couple that are similar, but I've not been able to find any specific rule that says, in a nutshell, when cooking meat, "it's okay as long as 140 degrees is reached in 4 hours."

I've seen it repeated countless times, and I've researched it several times, I've yet to find a concrete and reliable reference that isn't extrapolated from some other 'rule', certainly no distinction between ground meat or whole cuts, or any other distinction for that matter. 
And I've certainly never found a concrete reference to it being acceptable for uncured meat smoked at a low temperature  (especially ground meat) to dwell within the perfect conditions for the growth of botulinum bacterium for an extended period of time "as long as 140 degrees is reached within 4 hours."

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Okay, I have seen those, as well as a couple that are similar, but I've not been able to find any specific rule that says, in a nutshell, when cooking meat, "it's okay as long as 140 degrees is reached in 4 hours."
> I've seen it repeated countless times, and I've researched it several times, I've yet to find a concrete and reliable reference that isn't extrapolated from some other 'rule', certainly no distinction between ground meat or whole cuts, or any other distinction for that matter.
> And I've certainly never found a concrete reference to it being acceptable for uncured meat smoked at a low temperature (especially ground meat) to dwell within the perfect conditions for the growth of botulinum bacterium for an extended period of time "as long as 140 degrees is reached within 4 hours."
> ~Martin


 I have looked into it extensively...I have read reports until my head hurt and like you have not been able to find any single Word for Word source. When you put all the info together, 40-140 in 4 is a guideline that falls within the recommendation of several authorities... Kind of like Chew each bite of Food 32 Times. Brush your Teeth after Every Meal and Get 8 Hours of Sleep per Night...You can go more or less than the Guidelines...But they are still reasonable and provide for a margin of Safety and Good Health. Have you found anything that totally discredits our Guideline/Rule? It seems to be a never ending problem with Government agencies and Grant funded Researchers... If they want to continue getting funded they have to keep playing with the numbers, find new things for us to worry about and stay just vague enough about their findings to keep everyone confused and asking for more...JJ


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## pops6927

And, although it is pertinent to us, in the broader scope, we are trying to pinpoint one specific rule to fit our needs strictly for smoking when it is a larger issue and, like you say, may be different for ground vs. whole muscle, vs. chopped, etc. so for our narrow band of usage we must extrapolate from other, broader, 'rules' that don't particularly fit what we want them to say.  The above narrows it to a reasonable facsimile of a rule to fit our needs and is within the safety guidelines of minimum and maximums.  The only other thing would be to set up a USDA approved lab and specifically test out specific scenarios for all smoke generating devices on a comprehensive array of meats and conditions to formulate a specific rule or set of rules that would apply strictly to our applications; something I know I myself cannot specifically afford (heck, I can't afford to drive down the street for a free lunch, lol!).

Can we all agree that the 40° to 140° within 4 is a safe and viable guideline?


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## daveomak

_*  Kind of like Chew each bite of Food 32 Times. Brush your Teeth after Every Meal and Get 8 Hours of Sleep per Night...*_

_*




*_

I was not expecting that comment !!!!!


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## pops6927

Hmmmm.... I thought it was 35 times... Houston, we have another problem here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## diggingdogfarm

Pops6927 said:


> Can we all agree that the 40° to 140° within 4 is a safe and viable guideline?



That's a good question, I have no problem with the rule when it comes to most whole cuts, when prep time is included in the equation.
I do think that it's risky and shouldn't be recommend for high risk meats such as uncured meats that are ground, injected, and boned & rolled.
I also think it's potentially risky with some poultry, where the initial bacteria load is un-known.

I get relevant questions quite a lot and it sure would be nice if I could point folks to something concrete.

I'm going to do some more research today.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

An example of where I see a probelm with extrapolating rules is, some of those rules aren't qualified in a way that they should be.
We all know that the danger zone is 40 to 140 degrees. 
Then when we run across what I think is a very general statement, like "The most common food-handling error is keeping foods for more than four hours between 40F and 140F (4 C and 60 C) — the growth or so-called danger zone for most bacteria."

*Okay, so are we talking food that has been cooked to a safe temperature and then left to dwell in the danger zone or are we talking raw, uncooked food that's been left to dwell in the danger zone, there's a BIG difference in my mind!! Common sense would say that, while both are dangerous, it's much more dangerous to allow raw food to dwell in the danger zone for an extended period of time.*

"Compliance Guidelines for Cooling Heat-Treated Meat and Poultry Products (Stabilization)

It is very important that cooling be continuous through the given time/temperature control points. Excessive dwell time in the range of 130° to 80°F is especially hazardous, as this is the range of most rapid growth for the clostridia. Therefore cooling between these temperature control points should be as rapid as possible.

During cooling, the product’s maximum internal temperature should not remain between 130°F and 80°F for more than 1.5 hours nor between 80°F and 40°F for more than 5 hours. This cooling rate can be applied universally to cooked products (e.g., partially cooked or fully cooked, intact or non-intact, meat or poultry) and is preferable to (2) below.
Over the past several years, FSIS has allowed product to be cooled according to the following procedures, which are based upon older, less precise data: chilling should begin within 90 minutes after the cooking cycle is completed. All product should be chilled from 120°F (48°C) to 55°F (12.7°C) in no more than 6 hours. Chilling should then continue until the product reaches 40°F (4.4°C); the product should not be shipped until it reaches 40°F (4.4°C). This second cooling guideline is taken from the former (“Requirements for the production of cooked beef, roast beef, and cooked corned beef”, 9 CFR 318.17(h)(10). It yields a significantly smaller margin of safety than the first cooling guideline above, especially if the product cooled is a non-intact product. If an establishment uses this older cooling guideline, it should ensure that cooling is as rapid as possible, especially between 120°F and 80°F, and monitor the cooling closely to prevent deviation. If product remains between 120° F and 80° F more than one hour, compliance with the performance standard is less certain.
The following process may be used for the slow cooling of ready-to-eat meat and poultry cured with nitrite. Products cured with a minimum of 100 ppm ingoing sodium nitrite may be cooled so that the maximum internal temperature is reduced from 130 to 80° F in 5 hours and from 80 to 45° F in 10 hours (15 hours total cooling time).
This cooling process provides a narrow margin of safety. If a cooling deviation occurs, an establishment should assume that their process has exceeded the performance standard for controlling the growth of Clostridium perfringens and take corrective action. The presence of the nitrite, however, should ensure compliance with the performance standard for Clostridium botulinum."

*I don't think that it's wise or safe to extrapolate cooling rules for safely cooked food to cooking rules for raw food.*

Can this thread be split?


~Martin


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## alelover

I always go by the 40-140 in 4 rule. Actually I always get through the danger zone in way less than 4 hours. I also refrigerate cooked food as soon as possible after serving. Not one person has ever gotten ill from my food. So I will stick with those rules. They do seem to work.


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## BGKYSmoker




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## daveomak

Diggy, morning.....   I think the forum is trying to guide members to a general understanding of food safety....  Especially members that are not trained in food safety and handling.... 

I know my bride had a food handlers license and is more knowledgeable than I am....  Chefs even more so.....

Folks drop in here and are looking to smoke meat and be safe..... The info they glean from this site is better than others and provides a relatively safe set of guidelines for them to continue in their endeavors to smoke food in a safe manner....   It may not be perfect but it is a whole lot better than no educational primer at all...

Hopefully when they do stop in, and are interested in learning more about food safety, they can read up on it or possibly take a food handlers course.....

In my opinion, we are providing a basic understanding of safety.... Those that have questions we answer.....  This forum is basically food safety 101 or somewhere close..... We are not perfect but we are conscientiously making an attempt to provide reasonable information.....  

Dave


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## chef jimmyj

Martin, I have to agree there is definitely situations that 1-2 hours in the danger zone is too long never mind 4! But it would be confusing to to provide a different set of time and temp numbers for Fresh Sausage, Cured Sausage, Cured Sausage to be Dried, Chicken Parts, Whole Chicken, Ground Chicken, Whole muscle Beef, Cut Beef , Ground Beef, Injected Beef, Beef that is Punctured with potential pathogen carrying items such as, Garlic and or Fresh Herbs, Salt Brined Beef, Acid Marinated Beef, Salt Rubbed Beef, Rubbed Beef containing no Salt, Washed Beef, Unwashed Beef, then there is all the possibilities for Pork , Lamb, Poultry, Game, Shellfish, Fin Fish, Imported Seafood from questionable Sources, Vegetables...IT goes on...

Few would remember or pay attention and and not to mention all the posts that read, " I injected my Pork butt and let it warm to room temp on the counter based on member recommendations, read it somewhere here, then went into my MES at 225*. After 2 hours the Power went off for thirty minutes then came back on for 2 hours then went off again for 1 hour then back on 1 hour. then I fell asleep and when I woke the clock was blinking so there must have been another power failure. When I checked the IT the Pork was at 205*F and the Bone pulled easily. All household members are in good health and I washed the meat first...Which Guideline for Time and Temperature should I follow and...Is it safe to eat? "

I spent weeks in a Sanitation and Safety class and get 2-3 Food Safety Newsletters each day to learn and keep up to date on the handling possibilities and what could go wrong, people make millions of dollars developing HACCP Programs for major food handler and still...Stuff happens!

If you wish to research and provide Time and Temperature Guidelines for Each of the Meats and Handling Variations including relevant supporting documentation...You are welcome to do so and after review, we will Post it in a permanent Article with full credit given to you. Have at it...

The task is huge and SMF won't pay me Millions or even Pennies to do it, so in an effort to keep our members safe we have a guideline that takes many potential problems into account and boils it down to the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

I hope that nobody thinks that the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm trying to start trouble.

As I've said above, it's a concern of mine that a general rule such as  "40 to 140 in 4" may be used in a way that can seriously endanger someone, especially when there isn't a specified minimum cooking temperature.

Let me give a real world example.
This was the subject of quite some debate at another venue.

A guy "cold smoked" un-cured chicken wings at a temp of 80 to 100 degrees for 3 hours (the most dangerous area of the danger zone), he them finished them in about 45-50 minutes to a safe cooking temperature, the entire process was completed within 4 hours.

Are you comfortable promoting the "40 to 140 in 4" rule in a case like that?
I'm not! 
I know what I would do in a case like that, but to assure others that it's okay for meat, especially high risk chicken, to dwell at temps like that for 3 hours, even though recommended finish temps are reached within 4, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

See why I think it's important to clarify this rule?


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Martin, I have to agree there is definitely situations that 1-2 hours in the danger zone is too long never mind 4! But it would be confusing to to provide a different set of time and temp numbers for Fresh Sausage, Cured Sausage, Cured Sausage to be Dried, Chicken Parts, Whole Chicken, Ground Chicken, Whole muscle Beef, Cut Beef , Ground Beef, Injected Beef, Beef that is Punctured with potential pathogen carrying items such as, Garlic and or Fresh Herbs, Salt Brined Beef, Acid Marinated Beef, Salt Rubbed Beef, Rubbed Beef containing no Salt, Washed Beef, Unwashed Beef, then there is all the possibilities for Pork , Lamb, Poultry, Game, Shellfish, Fin Fish, Imported Seafood from questionable Sources, Vegetables...IT goes on...
> 
> Few would remember or pay attention and and not to mention all the posts that read, " I injected my Pork butt and let it warm to room temp on the counter based on member recommendations, read it somewhere here, then went into my MES at 225*. After 2 hours the Power went off for thirty minutes then came back on for 2 hours then went off again for 1 hour then back on 1 hour. then I fell asleep and when I woke the clock was blinking so there must have been another power failure. When I checked the IT the Pork was at 205*F and the Bone pulled easily. All household members are in good health and I washed the meat first...Which Guideline for Time and Temperature should I follow and...Is it safe to eat? "
> 
> I spent weeks in a Sanitation and Safety class and get 2-3 Food Safety Newsletters each day to learn and keep up to date on the handling possibilities and what could go wrong, people make millions of dollars developing HACCP Programs for major food handler and still...Stuff happens!
> 
> If you wish to research and provide Time and Temperature Guidelines for Each of the Meats and Handling Variations including relevant supporting documentation...You are welcome to do so and after review, we will Post it in a permanent Article with full credit given to you. Have at it...
> 
> The task is huge and SMF won't pay me Millions or even Pennies to do it, so in an effort to keep our members safe we have a guideline that takes many potential problems into account and boils it down to the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule...JJ



Well, that's exactly what i'm getting at, while it may not be possible to make a rule for every situation, it's also unwise to promote a general rule that may be used in a way that could be very dangerous.

I'm comfortable with "40 to 140 in 4" for whole cuts, cooked at a minimum temperature of, say, 225 degrees. I'm not at all comfortable promoting "40 to 140 in 4" as a general rule.


~Martin


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## alblancher

I believe the first recommendation we normally make is to follow a safe recipe.  We talk about smoked meats on this forum.   The 40 to 140 rule applies to what we talk about most of the time.  One of the great things about having such a diverse, educated membership is when something doesn't quite fit the rules it gets discussed.  That's why we have the forum, we don't just say  read this Wiki and move on to the next question.

I suggest we use the basic food safety rules as a guide and when something unusual is discussed we can add the caveats and additional explanation that it deserves.   I have smoked chicken wings at low temperatures before and then raised the smoking temp to get them beyond 140 degrees in 4 hours.  Never had a problem, it may be a good topic of discussion and make for an interesting conversation.   I have made jerky with just salt, soy sauce and spices.  Great stuff!  The salt and drying goes a long way to protecting the jerky.  Now that I know better I'll probably add a bit of to cure to help insure it's safety.  I still don't understand how we smoke fish without cure, but it happens quite often and is supported by a lot of reputable literature.

Would you open half a sack of oysters and lay them in the sun for 3 1/2 hours before smoking them?  Probably not!  If that's not asking for trouble I can't imagine what is.   But few of us smoke oysters and when we do we should be more attentive to the way we handle them.

Let's not continue to question the simple rules.  All it does is add confusion and increase angst.   Lets use the simple rules and then when needed expand on them to teach the finer points.  The 4 hour rule is perfectly fine for 90% of what we do.  Sometimes chicken, seafood and wild game require additional information. 

Just a thought.  

Al


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## diggingdogfarm

alblancher said:


> Let's not continue to question the simple rules. All it does is add confusion and increase angst.   Lets use the simple rules and then when needed expand on them to teach the finer points.  The 4 hour rule is perfectly fine for 90% of what we do.  Sometimes chicken, seafood and wild game require additional information.



Rules that are potentially unsafe should always be questioned.

The problem is that not everybody asks for clarification, some are rank beginners who have not one clue about food safety and when they see a general rule such as "40 to 140 in 4" they think it should apply to everything because they can't see the potential risks. Also remember that there are hundreds of people who read the forum and never join! 

I think folks may want to reconsider promoting "40 to 140 in 4" as a general rule because, besides someone getting seriously hurt or worse, without something authoritative, respected and concrete to back it up, the liability of making such a statement rests on you, the forum and the forum owner. That's another reason why I think this should be taken much more seriously.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

Sorry, I thought the OP's question had already been answered by Pineywoods, nepas and alblancher.





~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

I just spent most of the day reading through the complete 2009 US Food Code.
I can't find anything that supports the "40 to 140 in 4" rule.



~Martin


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## pops6927

Moving posts on this subject to this thread.


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## chef jimmyj

Martin, Your Chicken Wing scenario is an example of a an act by a Foolish person and I can guarantee that If that guy Posted the recipe here as the Best way to do them, many people would take issue because it is all over the Forum that any Un-Cured meat be Smoked at Temps over 225*F. This is taken from the USDA Guidelines...

*Use Two Thermometers to Smoke Food Safely*
To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process.  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp
 

So the 40 to 140 in 4 does not even come in to Play since a more important rule has already been broken and may have created a hazard. We can't address every possible stupid thing the uneducated may do, nor can we post a rule to cover every possible mishap, mistake or fluke occurrence that may come up. But, every time some one posts an unsafe Recipe we are on it like White on Rice...

We have to have a Starting point...40 to 140 in 4...Then we can deal with individual issues as they come up.

As far as Ground Meat goes...A 20 pound Meatloaf is probably not going to get above 140 in 4 and is beyond the Guideline but should we have a Rule for 20 lb Meatloaf?  No. In like sense a half a Dozen links of store bought 1 1/4" Johnsonville Brats will Smoke to 165*F IT in about 2 hours at 225*F so again, No issue and no separate Rule for Store Bought Sausages. 

I don't think you are trying to start trouble as long as you are civil and are open to discussion and are willing to try to see the Big Picture, We are all good... Like I said If you have some specific and common occurrence that warrants it's own rule, let us know...JJ


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## pops6927

As per Brian, I am moving this into it's rightful section, Food Safety.


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## pops6927

Moving thread to here


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## chef jimmyj

Makes sense to me...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Martin, Your Chicken Wing scenario is an example of a an act by a Foolish person and I can guarantee that If that guy Posted the recipe here as the Best way to do them, many people would take issue because it is all over the Forum that any Un-Cured meat be Smoked at Temps over 225*F. This is taken from the USDA Guidelines...
> 
> *Use Two Thermometers to Smoke Food Safely*
> 
> To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process.  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp
> 
> 
> So the 40 to 140 in 4 does not even come in to Play since a more important rule has already been broken and may have created a hazard. We can't address every possible stupid thing the uneducated may do, nor can we post a rule to cover every possible mishap, mistake or fluke occurrence that may come up. But, every time some one posts an unsafe Recipe we are on it like White on Rice...
> 
> We have to have a Starting point...40 to 140 in 4...Then we can deal with individual issues as they come up.
> 
> As far as Ground Meat goes...A 20 pound Meatloaf is probably not going to get above 140 in 4 and is beyond the Guideline but should we have a Rule for 20 lb Meatloaf?  No. In like sense a half a Dozen links of store bought 1 1/4" Johnsonville Brats will Smoke to 165*F IT in about 2 hours at 225*F so again, No issue and no separate Rule for Store Bought Sausages.
> 
> I don't think you are trying to start trouble as long as you are civil and are open to discussion and are willing to try to see the Big Picture, We are all good... Like I said If you have some specific and common occurrence that warrants it's own rule, let us know...JJ



I wouldn't call the guy foolish, just uniformed, foolish is knowing the rules and ignoring them. He took advise that was incomplete from a safety standpoint  and ran with it. He was a beginner, and in his mind the "40 to 140 in 4" rule applied to what he was doing.

Again, as I said before, the rule should be 40 to 140 in 4 at 225 or more to avoid someone getting seriously sick or worse.

Keeping the 2 separate is like giving someone an inflatable life raft, yet not telling them how to inflate it!

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

DiggingDogFarm said:


> I wouldn't call the guy foolish, just uniformed, foolish is knowing the rules and ignoring them. He took advise that was incomplete from a safety standpoint and ran with it. He was a beginner, and in his mind the "40 to 140 in 4" rule applied to what he was doing.
> Again, as I said before, the rule should be 40 to 140 in 4 at 225 or more to avoid someone getting seriously sick or worse.
> Keeping the 2 separate is like giving someone an inflatable life raft, yet not telling them how to inflate it!
> ~Martin


 And as far as your example goes I stand by Foolish because anybody that attempts to do some thing like Smoking Chicken and the ONLY info they bother to pay attention too is get it done in 4 hours is either Foolish or Stupid...Everytime you attempt a new Smoke or Build or Repair, do you look at One Post on a Forum read one Caution statement then go off and do it? I doubt it...By that logic the same guy would see Proscuitto is made with Salt and go off and buy a Hog Leg and a box of Morton's Kosher.

 In every instance that the " Rule " is stated it is in a Hot Smoke thread. So I thought it was self explanitory. Here is what I have taken directly from the Safety Sticky....

Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground, be cooked or smoked at a temperature,* typically 225*F or greater*, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)      ...And...

For Safety, we can't support the Smoking of Meat at temperatures lower than 200*F unless a Cure containing Sodium Nitrite Cure #1 or Tender Quick is used...The addition of Cure allows for Smoking anywhere between 40 and 200*F for an extended period of time...Please don't post recipes that are contrary to this...

So to end any confusion and at your behest, I added the above temperature qualifier highlighted in* Red*... I think that will help...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> And as far as your example goes I stand by Foolish because anybody that attempts to do some thing like Smoking Chicken and the ONLY info they bother to pay attention too is get it done in 4 hours is either Foolish or Stupid...Everytime you attempt a new Smoke or Build or Repair, do you look at One Post on a Forum read one Caution statement then go off and do it?



I certainly don't, but some people do, that's the point. How exactly is somebody with zero experience supposed to know if they have all the relevant safety info, does that come in 2 posts, or 10, or 100? If you don't have a clue about the risks how are you supposed to know what questions to ask? That's why it's important to be more thorough in cautioning.



Chef JimmyJ said:


> In every instance that the " Rule " is stated it is in a Hot Smoke thread. So I thought it was self explanitory.



Don't take anything for granted when it comes to food safety!



Chef JimmyJ said:


> It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground, be cooked or smoked at a temperature, *typically 225*F or greater*, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)      ...And...
> 
> For Safety, we can't support the Smoking of Meat at temperatures lower than 200*F unless a Cure containing Sodium Nitrite Cure #1 or Tender Quick is used...The addition of Cure allows for Smoking anywhere between 40 and 200*F for an extended period of time...Please don't post recipes that are contrary to this...



Bravo!
That caution in it's entirety is a much much better caution than simply "40 to 140 in 4"


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

I'm glad we came to an accord...As far as those that don't bother Educating themselves before they attempt something new...In the words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as Stupid does."...JJ


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## pops6927

Thank you, gentlemen!  Every dissension that results in an improvement is a discussion of success!


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## arnie

BRAVO!   Very well put gentlemen.







Not only was it good to see this topic brought up to the surface again, but it was great to see it discussed in a professional manner.  

I have seen others, and have been boohooed myself on other forums for raising questions on food safety.

As was pointed out, not everyone visiting any forum is at the same level of expertise.

It is easy to forget that and become comfortable with your knowledge. When that happens we become complacent.   

When we become complacent we put each other at risk.

If we all keep food safety at the forefront we should all be able to put another safe BBQ season under out belts.


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## rubbin butts

*Great job everyone, I enjoyed this thread and learned from it.*

*That's what the forum is about.*


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## shoneyboy

Just wanted to pay a little attention to this....


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## thsmormonsmokes

If liability is a concern, I could draft some incredibly obnoxious, detailed liability waiver to put below the site's masthead.  I'm sure everyone would love seeing that when they log on.

[/TIC].  Yeah, there's a reason people hate lawyers.

-Actually, as I'm thinking about it, if there isn't some sort of liability waiver buried in the user agreement (who reads those things anyway), it would be a good idea to have.  It might not be a terrible idea for one of the forum mods to look into that.  Feel free to PM me if you think this is worth looking into.  I'm only licensed in UT, so that limits what I can do, but the liability concerns that DDF has brought up are the kind of issues I deal with.


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I'm glad we came to an accord...As far as those that don't bother Educating themselves before they attempt something new...In the words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as Stupid does."...JJ




It's not just beginners, I see top-rated chefs being careless when it comes to food safety, and they should definitely know better.
Thomas Keller comes to mind, he would definitely benefit from a good food safety course.


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

LOL...Thomas Keller needing a Food Safety Course!?!  In my world that's the equivalent of saying Jesus Christ needs Religious Education!!!

There are a lot of things that happen in Restaurants that are considered Gross, like a Chef tasting a working sauce a couple of times with the Dip of a Finger...Or dropping a plate of Fried Shrimp and running them back through the Fryer to Rinse and Sanitize them...But none of it represents a Health Hazard just unethical poor management...JJ


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## alblancher

I used to install communications and network equipment in a bunch of local restaurants.  From large BBQ chain restaurants to fast food outlets to local mom and pop shops.  Two hints,  never look behind the equipment and never try and walk fast on a kitchen floor.  I spent a lot of time on my backside with tools all over the floor by getting in a hurry on the greasy floors.


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> LOL...Thomas Keller needing a Food Safety Course!?!  In my world that's the equivalent of saying Jesus Christ needs Religious Education!!!
> 
> There are a lot of things that happen in Restaurants that are considered Gross, like a Chef tasting a working sauce a couple of times with the Dip of a Finger...Or dropping a plate of Fried Shrimp and running them back through the Fryer to Rinse and Sanitize them...But none of it represents a Health Hazard just unethical poor management...JJ



How many issues do you see in this short video?

Thomas Keller Roasted Chicken



It can't be denied when caught on video.




~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

alblancher said:


> I used to install communications and network equipment in a bunch of local restaurants.  From large BBQ chain restaurants to fast food outlets to local mom and pop shops.  Two hints,  never look behind the equipment and never try and walk fast on a kitchen floor.  I spent a lot of time on my backside with tools all over the floor by getting in a hurry on the greasy floors.



That's why the equipment in my Mom's restaurants was easily movable, so the place could be thoroughly cleaned regularly.

I don't eat out in restaurants very much because of what I've seen in some places over the years.



~Martin


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## pops6927

DiggingDogFarm said:


> That's why the equipment in my Mom's restaurants was easily movable, so the place could be thoroughly cleaned regularly.
> I don't eat out in restaurants very much because of what I've seen in some places over the years.
> ~Martin


That's why you'd never want to see how ground meat is made in a grocery store either.  1, 3 and 5 lb. chubs from the manufacturer is the only way I buy ground meat now.  Pink Slime?  No, not a thing wrong with it at all.  Chubs have a 45 day shelf life.  In-store ground meat has a 1 day shelf life.  Big Big difference in bacteria levels, for sure!


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## diggingdogfarm

Pops6927 said:


> That's why you'd never want to see how ground meat is made in a grocery store either.  1, 3 and 5 lb. chubs from the manufacturer is the only way I buy ground meat now.  Pink Slime?  No, not a thing wrong with it at all.  Chubs have a 45 day shelf life.  In-store ground meat has a 1 day shelf life.  Big Big difference in bacteria levels, for sure!




That's why I grind my own meat.



~Martin


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## rubbin butts

*I love my smoked meats and never eat a meal without some type of meat, but if ya'll keep it up, you'll turn me into a vegetarian.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			




*


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## chef jimmyj

Martin, I know you are right here. Human nature in many cases tends to ignore the details. We are always in a hurry or have something else on our minds...My Mentor once said," People will always sneeze into their hand, or brush their Hair to one side, or scratch that itch, but as long as you are aware it's bad you may catch yourself sometime..." Nobody is perfect all the time...

Let's see...Bandaid No Gloves...Warming to room temp, done in some restaurants but still against Health code, an Inspector with a thermometer would not be happy!...Pepper Mill in contact with the Bird...Wiping Hands on a side towel that should only be used for handling hot pans...

It is true many Chef's become complacent with success and celebrity status. They are less frequently working in the trenches and lose their edge neglecting that which was common place safety practices...That was one of the Cleanest Kitchens I have ever seen!...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

Yeah, he also contaminates the end of the string on the roll, the salt bowl, and the oven door handle. Quite a few blunders in a video that's less than 4 minutes long.

I agree, the kitchen does look immaculate!!!


~Martin


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## sausageboy

When a poor beginner does something crazy he's foolish or stupid, but when a respected 'pro' does something crazy, there's always some excuse!! LOL

I don't get it!


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## shoneyboy

SausageBoy, that is the difference between the two.....the beginner will take the punishment, but the Pro will make and excuse to cover his butt, right or wrong!!! Even if he blames it in the beginner, at least that's what I have seen over the years in my field......


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## jfish63

Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.

" Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

This is how the rule was established..."


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## diggingdogfarm

Yup!
See posts 28 and 29.

The above wasn't always communicated in it's entirety.


~Martin


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## shawtd

I'm new to the forum and this was a great thread to read.  Having never smoked any meat, I'm learning all I can and this one is top notch.

Thanks.


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## s2k9k

jfish63 said:


> Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.
> 
> " Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)
> 
> This is how the rule was established..."


What about a large piece of meat that was cut in half, does it fall under this rule?


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## daveomak

S2K9K said:


> jfish63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if this helps your concerns regarding this site but it clearly states in the guidelines for this topic and I quote.
> 
> " Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)
> 
> This is how the rule was established..."
> 
> 
> 
> *What about a large piece of meat that was cut in half, does it fall under this rule?*
Click to expand...

S2K9K, evening.....  If a large roast is cut in half, theoretically, the cut has bacteria and will be exposed to the high heat when placed in the smoker.... No bacteria was "inserted" or "injected" below the surface of the meat and will become "dead" in the first few minutes or at least "dead" in the first hour or so.....  It just becomes another roast only smaller.....   Dave


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## s2k9k

Thanks Dave, That's what I thought, I thought it was when an injection actually could push the bacteria deep inside the meat.


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## jarjarchef

First off, I feel that the 40-140 in 4 rule as a guide is a very good starting point for as mentioned earlier about 90% of what is discussed here. Yes, there are some items that will take longer and some will go much faster. I personally used 40 - 140 in 4hr guide before I saw it here, because of wanting to get the food out of the temperature danger zone faster. I fully support that as a guide...

Where I work we follow Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points (HACCP) for all of our food storage, preparation, cooking, holding, transportation and service. It is not mandated by the Sate or FDA, but it is what we use and our company serves millions of meals a year. A bit on the history of HACCP http://www.haccpforexcellence.com/home/history_of_haccp  . I have looked for a mandated rule to support the 40-140 in rule, that is set in stone. Could not find it either, however it is a good guide to follow. With HACCP they talk about time at the temperature (see below). The only time I see a time with heating things up is in reheating (40-165 in <2hrs). When cooling we look at how fast we can cool it. Just a guide we use 140 to 70 in 2hrs then 70 to <40 in 4hrs. Does not make since to me either, but that is what the Florida Sate inspector looks for as well.

A suggested plan by the FDA  http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/...odSafetyHACCPPrinciples/Operators/default.htm

 Below was taken from (saved me from typing it all out 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





)  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/guide/43/haccp-and-critical-control-point-guide.html

In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) establishes minimum internal temperatures for cooked foods. It is important to remember that these values can be superseded by state or local health code requirements, but they cannot be below the FDA limits. Temperatures should be measured with a probe thermometer in the thickest part of meats, or the center of other dishes, avoiding bones and container sides. Minimum internal temperatures are set as follows:

*165°F (74°C) for 15 seconds*
Poultry (such as whole or ground chicken, turkey, or duck)
Stuffing
Stuffed meats, fish, poultry, and pasta
Any previously cooked foods that are reheated from a temperature below 135°F (57°C), provided they have been refrigerated or warm less than 2 hours
Any potentially hazardous foods cooked in a microwave, such as poultry, meat, fish, or eggs

*155°F (68°C) for 15 seconds*
Ground meats (such as beef or pork)
Injected meats (such as flavor-injected roasts or brined hams)
Ground or minced fish
Eggs that will be held for a length of time before eaten

*145°F (63°C) for 15 seconds*
Steaks and chops such as beef, pork, veal, and lamb
Fish
Eggs cooked for immediate service

*145°F (63°C) for 4 minutes*
Roasts (can be cooked to lower temperatures for increased lengths of time) ( we will cook roasts to 130 and hold for 121 min)

*135°F (57°C) for 15 seconds*
Cooked fruits or vegetables that will be held for a length of time before eaten
Any commercially processed, ready-to-eat foods that will be held for a length of time before eaten

In addition, hot food must be held at a minimum internal of 135°F (57°C) if it is not immediately consumed. The temperature must be checked every 4 hours or else labeled with a discard time. Although monitored hot food can be held indefinitely in this way without a food safety concern, the nutritional value, flavor, and quality can suffer over long periods.


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## pops6927

I agree ^^.  in the hot food deli sections had to conform to those standards eventually.  In the 70's and 80's, even up to the early 90's you had to cook chicken to 185° and hold it at 165°,  which meant after a ½ hr, it was as dry as chalk, lol and you had to toss it and make a new batch!


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## diggingdogfarm

Good info!

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

Great addition to the Thread! Thanks Jarjarchef...JJ


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## piaconis

> I hope that nobody thinks that the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm trying to start trouble.
> 
> As I've said above, it's a concern of mine that a general rule such as "40 to 140 in 4" may be used in a way that can seriously endanger someone, especially when there isn't a specified minimum cooking temperature.
> 
> Let me give a real world example.
> This was the subject of quite some debate at another venue.
> 
> A guy "cold smoked" un-cured chicken wings at a temp of 80 to 100 degrees for 3 hours (the most dangerous area of the danger zone), he them finished them in about 45-50 minutes to a safe cooking temperature, the entire process was completed within 4 hours.
> 
> Are you comfortable promoting the "40 to 140 in 4" rule in a case like that?
> I'm not!
> I know what I would do in a case like that, but to assure others that it's okay for meat, especially high risk chicken, to dwell at temps like that for 3 hours, even though recommended finish temps are reached within 4, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.
> 
> See why I think it's important to clarify this rule?


Martin,

I've always seen the 40 to 140 in 4 rule offered as guidance in warm smoking.  At no time have I ever seen cold smoking referenced.  It's a totally different standard, like putting diesel fuel in a car designed for gasoline.  The standard of the diesel fuel isn't bad...the practice of applying that standard to an unapproved solution is.

The USDA's guidence on smoking uncured meats is here:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp

It references a specific chamber temperature range, and advises a trip through 40-140 in an expedient manner (specifically, it advises against using frozen meats because they linger too long in that range).

Perhaps the better way to publish this guideline is to first define what warm smoking is, then define the practice of 40 to 140 in 4 as applying to warm smoking only.

Just my two cents.


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## oldschoolbbq

Martin,Martin,MARTIN...


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## diggingdogfarm

Cold smoking is an entirely different animal.

Oh, it's easy to find the "Danger Zone" (temperatures between 40 and 140 °F) mentioned by the 'rulers' and others, no problem with that at all.
Want I haven't found, and no one else seems to be able to find it either, is the 40 and 140 °F in 4 hours and in conjunction with a specific minimum safe cooking temperature.
That's not to say that it's not a good rule, to the contrary, it's just not backed up by the 'rulers'.
Heck, the almighty 'rulers' can't get they're act together and decide on a minimum safe barbecuing temperature, it's "between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process." in the link you posted and "smoker should be maintained at 250 to 300 °F for safety." here... http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Barbecue_Food_Safety/index.asp, apparently a $55 billion dollar a year budget isn't quite enough. :biggrin:

Rant off!

~Martin


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## piaconis

To muddy the waters just a bit further, the standard is completely dependant upon the way the food was handled prior to its arrival.  Nothing like adding variables to an equation.


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## chef jimmyj

Piaconis, The point you make is a valid one, the " 40 to 140 in 4 " is only ever mentioned in Hot smoking discussions. And it does seem rediculous for anyone to Stretch the concept to cold smoking Chicken then heat it to 165*F. But after extensive discussion, Martin did convince me that it could happen. So my posting of the rule in the Safety Forum Intro was updated to reflect that the rule applies to smoking at 225*F or greater...Thank for your input...JJ

It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)


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## jarjarchef

This what I found on a quick search for FDA Regulations Smoked Meat. I lot of info, again nothing mentions about cook time or smoker temp, only final temp and the use of HACCP. They do talk about curing and what is approved for use. See link below.

In our location we will use the time verse temperature for holding of  cold food on the temporary buffets, that is no more than 4 hours out of refrigeration. We are very strict on the above 140 for hot holding. That is why I am a firm believer in the 40 to 140 in <4hrs guideline.

Yes, just like in anything we can pick it apart till it reads what we want it to. The main thing we need to look at is keeping our food safe and wholesome for the ones consuming what we have put so much time and effort into.. The 40 to 140 in <4hrs helps us accomplish this. Yes it is also dependent that we handle the food correctly before we cook it.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm188201.htm#parta6-3


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## s2k9k

I am confused! What about meats that you aren't going to take to 140* like a steak or a beef roast? I know I know, whole muscle that hasn't been injected, but what about when you probe with a therm to check temp, isn't that considered "injecting"? Or if you put in a remote probe to monitor temp?

I'm asking because I am smoking a sirloin tip tomorrow and will only take it to about 135* and I am concerned if I should put my remote probe in it or not, and if I don't I'm still going to have to probe it with an instant read therm at some point so I know when it is done. So it seems that I will still be injecting it and it will never get to 140*.

I see advice all over this site about beef roasts and steaks and only cooking to 120* 130* 135*....and it seems to be fine to do even when a probe was injected at the start.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, just trying to better understand this.


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## chef jimmyj

S2K9K said:


> I am confused! What about meats that you aren't going to take to 140* like a steak or a beef roast? I know I know, whole muscle that hasn't been injected, but what about when you probe with a therm to check temp, isn't that considered "injecting"? Or if you put in a remote probe to monitor temp?
> 
> I'm asking because I am smoking a sirloin tip tomorrow and will only take it to about 135* and I am concerned if I should put my remote probe in it or not, and if I don't I'm still going to have to probe it with an instant read therm at some point so I know when it is done. So it seems that I will still be injecting it and it will never get to 140*.
> 
> I see advice all over this site about beef roasts and steaks and only cooking to 120* 130* 135*....and it seems to be fine to do even when a probe was injected at the start.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir anything up, just trying to better understand this.


 With a Beef Roast it will take a couple of hours. You already know its cold...so wait 1 hour for the heat of the Smoker to kill surface Bacteria then it don't matter how many times you stick it as long as your Therm Probe is clean... Dave, don't Freak Out! Yes there is Bacteria in the Air on even washed Hands and on the surface of Meat. But most of the time stuff we do like Brine, Rub with a Salty Rub, Smoking to 130*F or Higher and so forth covers our Backsides by killing Bacteria. Truely Goofy stuff has to happen to get Sick! 

For instance...Defrost a Chicken on the counter for 20 Hours,( it's cool Mom did it and nobody died. ) Inject with leftover Creole Butter, Start Smoking at 225*F fall asleep and there is a Power Failure that last 4 hours. Power comes back and you wake after 8 hours to find All looks ok. You think, " Man that's a long time but I read something about Stall some where, that is what must have happened." You see the breast is at 160*F, Thigh Juices still Pink but everybody Hungry and you serve it...Yes this is a silly scenario, but hey does happen.

The biggest issue that Scares me is when I see...I Injected my 10LB Butt and let it sit on the Counter a couple of hours to come to room temp because if I don't it Drops the Smoker temp and takes longer to Smoke...3-4 hours on the Counter or 3-4 extra hours in the Smoke...WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Except time on the Counter is generating loads of Bacteria and possibly Toxins... Enjoy your Beef...JJ


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## s2k9k

Chef JimmyJ said:


> *  With a Beef Roast it will take a couple of hours.* You already know its cold...so wait 1 hour for the heat of the Smoker to kill surface Bacteria then it don't matter how many times you stick it as long as your Therm Probe is clean...JJ


What do you mean "it will take a couple of hours"? To fully cook to 135*?

This bad boy is 10 pounds, I'm thinking more than a couple of hours!

So are you saying as long as it hasn't been injected once the surface temp gets to 140* it is OK to inject?


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## chef jimmyj

S2K9K said:


> What do you mean "it will take a couple of hours"? To fully cook to 135*?
> 
> This bad boy is 10 pounds, I'm thinking more than a couple of hours!
> 
> So are you saying as long as it hasn't been injected once the surface temp gets to 140* it is OK to inject?


 I'm saying once the Surface get's hot you can probe all you want even though the Beef is still Raw inside...As far as Injection...Wash the Meat and Dry well...Apply a Salty Rub...Then Inject...Rest on Counter no more than 1 hour!...Smoke at ---*F to IT desired. You should have no problem at all...BUT...If you want more assurance Don't Inject or wait 1 hour for the Surface Bacteria to die then inject. In my opinion, I want to taste BEEF not a bunch of whatever injected inside! ( Brisket is an Exception because of cooking to 190*F)...JJ

BTW: If you are going to cook to 130*F IT most 10Lb Beef Roasts are not going to take more than 4 hours or so...


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## s2k9k

Thanks a Bunch JJ!!! That clears a lot of stuff up for me!

I wasn't planning on injecting anything into it I was more referring to breaking the surface as in injecting a temp probe into it.


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## tatties n neeps

very interesting topic ! thanks for the info 40 to 140 in 4 , was never aware of how quick you had to get your meat temp up .


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