# Natural Curing



## pops6927

A new product at Butcher Packer (SausageMaker doesn't carry it yet):













natveg.jpg



__ pops6927
__ Nov 13, 2012






Probably Celery powder, but for the people wanting to do curing without chemical lifestyle, this is it!


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## linguica

I just read an article that "naturally" cured meats can can contain more nitrites than those properly cured with Prague #1.

 As soon as I locate the source I will post it.

Found it

http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/

Comments.......?


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## venture

Can't help but have my doubts?

I am not in the camp of no nitrites/nitrates if used properly.

I am also not in the camp of the salt only cure.  Especially now that our salt is missing the nitrites/nitrates that once occurred naturally in some parts of the world.

If it cures?  Must be something going on there?  Sure there are no nitrites/nitrates involved?

Reminds me of the glutamate controversy.  Even though the glutamates occur naturally in many of our foods?

Then again, most of us are guilty of eating and enjoying "factory food"?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## diggingdogfarm

:icon_eek:
Yikes!!!!
Looks like it's  Veg Stable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 504 Celery Juice Powder!
They're making a HUGE mistake in calling it a cure replacement,* it's not in USDA's eyes!!!!!*
It should only be treated as a seasoning and color enhancer.
Someone could get seriously hurt or worse!
Very irresponsible on their part!!!

As far as celery powder and the Ruhlman blog posts go.......

http://ruhlman.com/2011/02/meat-curing-safety-issues/
http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/

re: No Nitrates Added Hoax.....

From the blog post above........
"It’s my belief that companies advertising their products as “nitrite-free,” are either uninformed themselves or are pandering to America’s ignorance about what is healthy and what is harmful in our foods. In other words, the term “no nitrites added” is a marketing device, not an actual health benefit."

They're not uninformed, pandering or using the terms as a sneaky marketing device, they're doing what the 'rulers' at the almighty USDA tell them to do as far as labeling goes. 

From USDA materials.....

*"The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured"*

*"Bacon can be manufactured without the use of nitrite, but must be labeled "Uncured Bacon, No Nitrates or Nitrites added" and bear the statement "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated Below 40 °F At All Times" — unless the final product has been dried according to USDA regulations, or if the product contains an amount of salt sufficient to achieve an internal brine concentration of 10% or more, the label does not have to carry the handle statement of "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated below ___" etc. Recent research studies have shown for products labeled as uncured, certain ingredients added during formulation can naturally produce small amounts of nitrates in bacon and, therefore, have to be labeled with the explanatory statement "no nitrates or nitrites added except for those naturally occurring in ingredients such as celery juice powder, parsley, cherry powder, beet powder, spinach, sea salt etc."*

And there you have it!

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

I am curious about the actual amount of Nitrite in the Veg Powder. Considering Nitrite is Nitrite regardless of whether it comes from Veggies, Sea Salt or Man made. As long as the amount of  Veg 504 they recommend using provides the same PPM as the commonly recommended amount of Cure #1...There is nothing different or wrong with it. 

I don't get the whole " Natural " vs Man Made anyway. What is the difference between filling a cup with Spring Water from a babbling brook or burning a whole lot of Hydrogen and Oxygen together and producing a cup of Man Made Water...Gotta love them kooky tree hugging Hippy types...JJ


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## daveomak

[h1]Sausage Maker carries it.....   Read the note in red at the bottom of the product description.... [/h1][h1] [/h1][h1] [/h1][h1]#11080 Celery Juice Powder[/h1]


Your Price:  $9.99

Item Number:  11080

Quantity:

Email this page to a friend










Celery Juice Powder contains naturally occuring nitrites and nitrates (which breakdown to nitrites with the help of bacteria native in meat itself). Celery Juice Powder is now commonly being used for *giving sausages and meats a cured appearance and taste*  without the use of synthetic sodium nitrite/nitrate. Since nitrates take time to convert ('reduce') to nitrite and there is no consensus yet for a suggested curing time per amount Powder for consistent curing action. Products using vegetable based nitrites/nitrates (such as Celery Juice Powder) must be cooked prior to consumption.

Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat.

1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp.

For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder.

_*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured"._

From what I have read, celery powder, and others in the same group, have mostly nitrate in them....   Dave
 


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I am curious about the actual amount of Nitrite in the Veg Powder. Considering Nitrite is Nitrite regardless of whether it comes from Veggies, Sea Salt or Man made. As long as the amount of  Veg 504 they recommend using provides the same PPM as the commonly recommended amount of Cure #1...There is nothing different or wrong with it.



Even if the level of nitrate is known, there are other issues.
In the case of the celery powder, it's nitrate (NO3), not nitrite (NO2).
The nitrate (NO3), must convert to nitrite (NO2) before it can convert to nitric oxide (NO) which asks upon myoglobin to do the curing.
The conversion of nitrate (NO3) to nitrite (NO2) requires bacterial action which is only reliable at greater than refrigerator temperatures, that in itself is a major difference between nitrate and nitrite.
Nitrite works reliably at refrigerator temps, a major safety difference.
That's one of the main reasons why nitrite is favored over nitrate.
When it comes to protecting against botulinum, I'm not going to gamble with celery powder.


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

Martin, From what I can see, Veg 504 is " Nitrite " specifically it is Pre-generated Nitrite or nitrite which has been converted from the naturally occurring  Nitrate in Celery Juice to form that Nitrite... Tests have been conducted and if used in the specific and recommended proportions specified by the manufacturer there should be no problem.  Here is a couple of source articles regarding testing...JJ

http://gradworks.umi.com/34/80/3480511.html

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120027896#b


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## pops6927

Yes, I later found that in Sausagemaker's separate "Natural" designation, not in the Curing section, I apologize.


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## chef jimmyj

Pops6927 said:


> Yes, I later found that in Sausagemaker's separate "Natural" designation, not in the Curing section, I apologize.


No need to apologize yet...The SMF Jury is still out...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






...JJ


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## pops6927

The point I am trying to make is that we now have sources to direct our clientele to suppliers who DO carry these products, and if used per directions, can do the job.  It is not our place to judge the product unless we personally try it (which I will at the earliest financial opportunity); buyer beware and all that; we can now broaden our reach to potential members who want to embrace these methods.  It is a natural progression that we must accept, embrace and promote if proven valid. Yes, Jeff, I am shamelessly promotional, lol).


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## diggingdogfarm

If it's truly natural and it's really celery juice powder, then it's nitrate, not nitrite.
You can see the reaction on the manufacturer's website, starting with NO3 (nitrate).
This is going to lead to even more confusion for folks new to curing, not a good thing in my opinion!!!







Again, it's not currently considered a safe and effective cure by the government.
See 9CFR424.21(6)(c) chart of approved substances and!or Directive 7120.1
"Safe and Suitable Ingredients Used in the Production of Meat, Poultry and Eggs Products".

We are following government recommendations here, right?

Just sayin'.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

If it does ever become approved as a safe and reliable cure and safeguard against botulinum, that would be VERY cool...I'm all for natural.
Well. very cool until some moron decides that he doesn't want to pay $26 a pound for the stuff so he decides to make his own homemade celery powder (of unknown nitrate content) and sickens or kills a bunch of people!!!!
Knowing the way some folks operate, that's certainly conceivable!!!!


Until then........


~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

Yes we do follow USDA recommendations and I think we are talking about two completely different products. The Veg Stable (no number) from Florida Food that you are referencing in your last post appears to be different than the Veg Stable 504 that is pre-generated Nitrite as described in the two articles I posted. The article below talks not only about Veg Stable 504 but a Veg Stable 515 which is Ascorbic Acid. Bottom line it's Apples and Oranges, different products with different names and formulations from the same company. I would venture a guess that there is at least one Manufacturer that makes both Cure #1 and Cure #2 and there is no confusion that they are two different formulations...JJ

 http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0042011/00001


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## pops6927

We must understand, these processes are no longer folklore.  They exist, they are in the grocery stores with the appropriate wording on the packages, they are being sold.  It is up to us to help others understand what these processes are, not being judgmental, provide as complete documentation as possible to our clientele that is not biased, and lead the way as responsible adults to help others embrace the processes that are going on just as we do with both wet and dry curing.  Knowledge is power and we need to supply the power of Truth to this and bring it from the murky to the light.


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## chef jimmyj

I have to agree Pops. There is a big difference between this Veg Stable 504 and going to the local Spice Shop or Health food store and buying Celery Juice Powder.  I seriously doubt a company the size and with a reputation for quality like Butcher Packer would sell a product labeled as, " a replacement for DQ Curing Salt " unless it was in fact a Proven and Safe substitute that works Exactly the same...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

There are serious questions regarding "natural cures" being adequate protection against some very serious pathogens!!!
It shouldn't be taken lightly!!!!!!

I looked into the VegStable some more. 

The VegStable 504 is according to the manufacturer "pre-converted" to nitrite, which begs the question, how then can they call it natural?

VegStable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 502 * (celery powder, sea salt)-30,000-
33,000 ppm nitrate; recommended use level of
0.2% to 0.4%

VegStable[emoji]8482[/emoji] 504 * (celery powder, sea salt)-10,000-
12,000 ppm nitrite (pre-converted, starter and
holding time not required); recommended use level
of 0.2% to 0.4%

*Regardless, they're not considered safe alternatives to conventional cure.*

Here is some information to consider:

Source: Iowa State University

Products "cured" with celery juice powder labeled, natural and organic “uncured”.

_"It appears that natural and organic “uncured”
RTE processed meat products will permit
greater growth of L. monocytogenes and Cl.
perfringens and earlier toxin production by Cl.
botulinum than conventionally cured
products."_



















*Folks, be safe, use REAL cure!!!!*

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

Well my Degrees are only in Electrical Engineering Technology, Culinary Arts and Restaurant Management. So since I am not a Chemist or Microbiologist, I am getting out of this discussion...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

I emailed the manufacturer for complete use instructions and asked about 504's effectiveness against C. Botulinum.

Waiting.......


~Martin


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## BGKYSmoker

I used some of the celery juice powder. Had a funky taste like soapish so i tossed the 3 lbs. I'll stick with modern cure or a back up of MTQ


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## BGKYSmoker

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Well my Degrees are only in Electrical Engineering Technology, Culinary Arts and Restaurant Management. So since I am not a Chemist or Microbiologist, I am getting out of this discussion...JJ


I got my degrees and certs at the School Of Hard Knocks 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Muuuuawwwhahahaha


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## diggingdogfarm

nepas said:


> I used some of the celery juice powder. Had a funky taste like soapish so i tossed the 3 lbs. I'll stick with modern cure or a back up of MTQ



Yes, I've tried some of the commercial 'organic" products made with the stuff, they tasted like CRAP!!!!!



~Martin


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## BGKYSmoker

@ Martin

Sorry off topic but how did the cloth casing work for ya?


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## diggingdogfarm

nepas said:


> @ Martin
> 
> Sorry off topic but how did the cloth casing work for ya?



Great!!!!

I picked up some fabric.

I think I'm going to try to sew some up myself (LOL) via a French seam, since we don't have a serger sewing machine.

Just haven't got around to it yet.

~Martin


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## diesel

Good stuff here.  I know I am interested.  I recently had a discussion w/ a work peer about home curing bacon.  He quickly spoke up about the nitrate free bacon he gets from "said store".  I had to explain to him how that was not true.  That it still contained nitrate/nitrite.  Well that lead to how the bacon he was eating had "Natural" nitrate/nitrite not man made.  I just said good for you. 

again, great discussing everyone. 

Aaron.


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## pops6927

Guess I'll just have to break down and buy some... gawd I'm cheap, lol!


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## pops6927

Oh, btw Martin, got to use your calculator the other day; put down 4 12-15 lb. turkeys in a big bucket for Thanksgiving smoke for family and ran out of cure #1.  I thought I'd given my son a bag of it and went to borrow it, but nay, he didn't have it (must have borrowed it earlier, lol!).  So I used your calculator to figure out what the minimum cure needed to be and I'd already exceeded it in the brine I'd done, so I just made up some more to cover w/out any cure #1 added.  Thank you!  (Plus ordered 4 more bags!).


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## diggingdogfarm

Pops6927 said:


> Oh, btw Martin, got to use your calculator the other day; put down 4 12-15 lb. turkeys in a big bucket for Thanksgiving smoke for family and ran out of cure #1.  I thought I'd given my son a bag of it and went to borrow it, but nay, he didn't have it (must have borrowed it earlier, lol!).  So I used your calculator to figure out what the minimum cure needed to be and I'd already exceeded it in the brine I'd done, so I just made up some more to cover w/out any cure #1 added.  Thank you!  (Plus ordered 4 more bags!).





Cool!


~Martin


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## zalbar

The real problem with using vegetable based powders is that we can't calculate the precise amount of nitrite in it. It's completely variable depending on where the stuff was grown, what was in the soil, etc. Now, sure you can use that stuff and come out with a good product, but educating people to the difference or lack of one concerning nitrites and nitrates is very important. Sodium-nitrite is the same no matter the source. The difference is that we can accurately measure the amount when using pink salt, but not so when using the vegetable additive.


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## timoak

whoa was going to post a bunch of old UK sugar salt  cures here but am thinking you guys may just rip it apart if anyone would liek to know thay have been in my family for years and they work


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## daveomak

timoak said:


> whoa was going to post a bunch of old UK sugar salt  cures here but am thinking you guys may just rip it apart if anyone would liek to know thay have been in my family for years and they work


Tim, morning and welcome to the forum.... Please take a moment and stop into " *Roll Call  *  " and introduce yourself so we can give you a proper welcome.....  We have great members prowling the forum who share their secret recipes and are willing to help you become the greatest smoker on your block.... Sit back, relax and cruise through the threads.... enjoy the long smokey ride..   Dave


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## pops6927

Zalbar said:


> The real problem with using vegetable based powders is that we can't calculate the precise amount of nitrite in it. It's completely variable depending on where the stuff was grown, what was in the soil, etc. Now, sure you can use that stuff and come out with a good product, but educating people to the difference or lack of one concerning nitrites and nitrates is very important. Sodium-nitrite is the same no matter the source. The difference is that we can accurately measure the amount when using pink salt, but not so when using the vegetable additive.


Well, the good news is that they come with directions, as long as you follow them it should be fairly simple to achieve a good outcome.


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## diggingdogfarm

I never did get a response back from the manufacturer.
I sent the same message 3 times and nothing.
That's not a good sign, IMHO.

From what I've read about the natural cures the past few years, the thing that makes them unreliable as far as being considered a real cure is the way the nitrate in the powder distributes throughout the meat and not the level of nitrite or nitrate, which, I assume, is tested to ensure a certain level.
Regular cure dissolves and distributes well, not the case with a powder, or so they say.



~Martin


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## venture

I seem to recall that the recommended quantities on nitrites/nitrates are MAX.  Right?

I know that Pops uses a little less in his brine, but uses a little longer curing time than some would in order to compensate.  Right?

Until the "natural" stuff gets sorted out?  Like there are no nitrates/nitrites in the "natural" stuff?  I will stick with what is known and proven.

As I said in a previous thread?  Convince me there is no MSG in "natural" vege products.  Why don't people have all these "symptoms" after they eat a salad?  Seems to only happen in Chinese restaurants?  C'mon!

Good luck and good smoking.


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## pops6927

timoak said:


> whoa was going to post a bunch of old UK sugar salt  cures here but am thinking you guys may just rip it apart if anyone would liek to know thay have been in my family for years and they work


Oh no, we're not a forum with any attitude at all, if there's something else that's out there, we'd love to know about it!  It is you, the subscriber, who educates us just as much as we try to give education, believe me!  The only thing we want to make sure is that we follow all the proper safety rules so no one gets sick or dies or doesn't follow proper safeguards.  We learn from you, believe me!  Do you know the ingredients of these substances and how to formulate them?  We'd love to know!


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