# 40 to 140 in 4...A Guideline and what to consider...



## chef jimmyj

You will often see this called, " The Rule " here at SMF. This RULE, a Guideline actually, is the most frequently misquoted and misused info on SMF. More perfectly good meat has gone in the garbage at the hands of this," RULE " then from folks cleaning their Refrigerator or Freezer!!!

*Rules* have set parameters that cannot, under any circumstances, be exceeded...*Guidelines *set useful control points that need an action or review but leaves the operator open to interpret data and decide on action based on variables and changes.

*Here is the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline...

Uncured Meat that is not Intact as in Ground, Injected*, Boned/Rolled &Tied or have multiple Punctures to insert flavorings, should be cooked at a temperature, 225+, that will get the Internal Temperature from 40 to 140 degree in 4 hours. If there is an issue, reaching this goal +/- an hour or so, like your smoker dying, there is an increased risk of bacteria growing to Dangerous levels. There are Exceptions,  see below for more detail...*

If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is INTACT, other than Therm Probe, it don't matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about. Additionally, at 225°F, the meat surface will pass 140°F in 30 to 60 minutes or less, depending on the size of the meat. All surface bacteria is Killed and there is very little that can change that.

The reason for the term Guideline over Rule is because if the meat takes 4 hours and 5 minutes to reach 140, or 4.5, 5 or even 6 hours, is all lost? NO! We add variables that need consideration. Bacteria rapidly grows to Unsafe Levels in, " The Danger Zone, 40 degrees to 140 degrees, " *Only under PERFECT conditions. *Bacteria need the right Temp, Moisture Level, sufficient Food and Time to grow. Remove, reduce or affect any of these and growth slows or stops. Like most of us, bacteria don't just jump out of bed and go to work. If conditions go from one of no growth to a condition that sustains growth the bacteria need time, often hours to Wake up and start multiplying This is called the " Lag Time " before growth. Then they need more time to grow from a few to dangerous levels. Additionally, where one type can still survive at the extreme of 140, many others slow or stop growing at temps as low as 120 degrees and are killed at 130 degrees if held there for sufficient time. Are THESE bacteria an issue if we run over 4 hours? NO again, they were dead an hour or so ago. Now add ingredients that Inhibit Bacterial Growth like Salt, Sugar, Alcohol and Acid, with a Wet or Dry Brine, Marinade, even Injected*** and the 4 hours can be exceeded by a couple hours with no concern. *(*Injecting Chicken or Beef Broth is more of a concern, than injecting a high salt brine or marinade that contains salt, sugar, acid or alcohol.)*

Yes, we need to Cover our Butts and assume ANY or all types of bacteria may be on the meat and Handle it properly, watch smoker and internal temps, be aware of and follow "Guidelines".
Yes, we are here to learn, teach and help each other. However if you are going to tell a member in a panic to, " Toss that DEADLY meat out! ", based on a Guideline...You better Know what the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline is and if YOU are unsure, reassure the panicked member to hang in there, that we can help and pass the question on.

You want a good " RULE "...It is *NOT*, " When in Doubt, Throw it out. " *At SMF the Rule is, " When in Doubt, PM somebody that KNOWS the answer! "...JJ*


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## tropics

Great post JJ
Richie


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## crazymoon

CJJ, Nice info!


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## SonnyE

I didn't worry about this bacteria thing in the last 47 years.
In fact, I was under the impression smoking killed about all bad critters inside the smoker. And it preserved the meat in there, whatever it be... (In my case, mostly trout and salmon, some jerky from beef and game.) And it's got to be better than fish hanging on a branch over a fire.
I know most of the time, if I get a lung full of smoker smoke, it about chokes me somethin fierce.
(My wife sez, "It stinks!" :mad:)

But I'm still standing, and... my goodness... still smokin meat. In spite of doing it about all wrong.
I didn't know any better back then.

If ignorance is bliss, I guess I'm delirious.
Alive and delirious.
But I try to not overthink things.

Sonny, Eating the evidence before anybody catches me. :confused:


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## chef jimmyj

Smoking and heat in general does kill bacteria. The ONLY issue here is meat that is not intact. Fish, a Venison Roast, Jerky, that is intact muscle, 4 hours or 40 to get to temp and you are fine. But, smoke sausage, a meat loaf or a 10 pound Deer Leg that you injected beef broth into and smoke at less than ,225°F and no matter how hot you get it you may be in trouble. With all of these the temp will kill bacteria but dangerous Toxins that are NOT affected by heat are what we worry about.

As far as Doing Things Wrong and you are still alive...Many of us have indulged in Risky behavior. The 80's was a blur for me! Cocaine, Unprotected Sex with many, many willing young ladies, Street Racing Muscle Cars, hell, we picked up a case of Beer to Cruse the streets or drive to the Beach. Drunk Driving was a Friday and Saturday Night event! And I'M still alive. But I know better now! That kind of behavior can Kill me, especially if my Wife found out, and stopped that silliness a long time ago. Back then I was Lucky! Now I am Smarter...JJ


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## SmokinAl

I like that comment JJ!
We could be brothers!!
Al


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## azbohunter

As  many of us could but I would never admit to it!;)


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## ab canuck

Great post and info....... Ditto for the past tom fooleries that a lot of us have done. Age may slow some things down for us all but it USUALLY brings about wisdom and smarts through that exp. I know I am smarter from it but am always learning to improve our lives.


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## SonnyE

Only the 80's JJ?  :p Lightweight... I hear the "Me Too" movement is looking for you....

Look, I take care, I clean, and disinfect. Like most, I don't like to be sick.
But I'm not going to constantly worry about it.
If it looks off, smells off, or tastes off, it gets thrown out. In fact, too much gets thrown out. It's the American way!
I am much more likely to pick up germs outside of my home, than bad ones from inside it. ;)
But, if worrying's your thing, have at it. The only thing I worried about was the year 2000. And hey, I made it! 
I decided to change ma wayz in 2005, decided I'd like to stick around and watch the Grandkid's grow-up. (I've been a Grandpa since I was 35. 1985) Now we've got a dozen, and 1 GG.
I stay healthier and a lot happier by staying away from John Q. Public. And I don't care for prepared food brought in because I don't know where it's been. When I see "Product of (some distant country)" I wonder if it has DDT on it.
Not that our own FDA does it's job either. Worker's defecating in the fields, or not washing their hands, contaminating food as it is harvested. People coming to work sick because they have to work.
Nope, we take care of it at home. But the more Worldly our food sources become, the less stable the conditions it comes to us as, grows. So we clean it, cook the hell out of it, and hope.
And then the fecal matter in the salad makes us sick, darn!
Or would you prefer:
*Bacteria*

Vibrio cholerae (cholera)
Clostridium difficile (pseudomembranous enterocolitis)
Shigella (shigellosis / bacillary dysentery)
Salmonella typhii (typhoid fever)
Vibrio parahaemolyticus.
Escherichia coli.
Campylobacter.
Or your neighbors children are carriers because their parents didn't believe in vaccinations.
Yep, the petri dish is getting full.
And I'm still kickin....


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## noboundaries

I had a question for the food safety guys, but found the answer online.  The question was: Can humans develop tolerances or immunities to common foodborne bacteria, viruses, and parasites? The answer, no.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs399/en/

Please understand I have NO INTENTION of become less safe handling food, or starting an argument, but that question always pops into my mind when we talk about how things used to be done, and how they're done now.  Also, natives to less developed countries eat and drink things that put Americans on the porcelain throne for days within 24-48 hours of consumption.     

I'm was curious about my question, but the link above cleared that up.


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## GaryHibbert

That was a great post JJ.  Hopefully it will clear up a lot of misconceptions people have.  Thank you.
As for the 80s, well I was alive then.  But, God help me, I grew up in the 60s--and I'm not sure how, but I'm still here to talk about those times.  LOL
Gary


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## chef jimmyj

noboundaries said:


> I had a question for the food safety guys, but found the answer online.  The question was: Can humans develop tolerances or immunities to common foodborne bacteria, viruses, and parasites? The answer, no.
> 
> http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs399/en/
> 
> Please understand I have NO INTENTION of become less safe handling food, or starting an argument, but that question always pops into my mind when we talk about how things used to be done, and how they're done now.  Also, natives to less developed countries eat and drink things that put Americans on the porcelain throne for days within 24-48 hours of consumption.
> 
> I'm was curious about my question, but the link above cleared that up.



True, but a healthy immune system and gut flora, made of a variety of probiotics, goes a long way toward protecting you from infections and/ or reduces the severity if you are infected. You consume some Ecoli 0157 bacteria every day from raw veggies and even though food contacting your dirty fingers. Your body has no issue battling the bug. It is large numbers of bacteria from feces contaminated meat and veg that can overwhelm your defenses and result in illness...JJ


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## Jbizzle

So here’s my situation. I bribed some pork ribs, salt, vinegar and salt, was definitely a bit too warm. Went for about 4-5 hours pulled it out, and it smelled like eggs. Rubbed and put in the fridge. Planning on smoking for 8 hours at 225. Is it going to be ok?I think I cooked it a bit in the brine


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## chef jimmyj

Not the best situation but salt and vinegar was inhospitable to bacteria growth over the few hours it took to cool the brine below 40°F. You should be fine but your nose will let you know if the meat spoiled...JJ


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## bill ace 350

chef jimmyj said:


> Smoking and heat in general does kill bacteria. The ONLY issue here is meat that is not intact. Fish, a Venison Roast, Jerky, that is intact muscle, 4 hours or 40 to get to temp and you are fine. But, smoke sausage, a meat loaf or a 10 pound Deer Leg that you injected beef broth into and smoke at less than ,225°F and no matter how hot you get it you may be in trouble. With all of these the temp will kill bacteria but dangerous Toxins that are NOT affected by heat are what we worry about.
> 
> As far as Doing Things Wrong and you are still alive...Many of us have indulged in Risky behavior. The 80's was a blur for me! Cocaine, Unprotected Sex with many, many willing young ladies, Street Racing Muscle Cars, hell, we picked up a case of Beer to Cruse the streets or drive to the Beach. Drunk Driving was a Friday and Saturday Night event! And I'M still alive. But I know better now! That kind of behavior can Kill me, especially if my Wife found out, and stopped that silliness a long time ago. Back then I was Lucky! Now I am Smarter...JJ



Great post.

What are your thoughts on whole muscle cured jerky?
Safe to dehydrate at 160 +- without pre-cooking or not?
Thanks.


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## chef jimmyj

According to the USDA, 160 for seconds is sufficient to kill bacteria. Beyond that, it's about making in dry. 130 is fine to both dry the jerky and keep any errant bacteria from taking hold...JJ


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## SonnyE

bill ace 350 said:


> Great post.
> 
> What are your thoughts on whole muscle cured jerky?
> Safe to dehydrate at 160 +- without pre-cooking or not?
> Thanks.



Mine gets cooked in the dehydrator.
I get my cured and marinated Jerky assembled on the clean mats and racks, then start my Dehyro at 165°. (highest heat setting. I always clean my equipment between batches, too.)
I've been experimenting with time frames, 4-6 hours, until my jerky is dried to my liking. Which is dryer than most...
I've eaten much more than anyone else of my batches because I find it addicting and delicious. (Ima Pig)
So far as I know, I'm still alive and healthy (confirmed by my doctors), and no one has gotten ill from my jerky.

The instructions for my Dehydro state to put Ground Beef jerky in the oven at 275° for 10 minutes.

_"If you did not cook the meat prior to dehydrating, cook it after, following the instructions below: Cooking meat after dehydrating—Preheat oven until the internal temperature is 275°F. (For an accurate temperature reading, check with an oven thermometer.) Remove jerky strips from dehydrator trays and place on a baking sheet close together, but not touching. Heat jerky in preheated oven for 10 minutes (jerky strips should be sizzling when removed from the oven). Remove jerky from baking sheet and cool to room temperature"
_
It tasted like Hamburger. But my dog liked it.
I decided I like whole muscle jerky the best.


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## chef jimmyj

Years ago an Asian market in Lancaster PA carried a Sweet and Spicy Beef jerky that was fried after dehydrating. The owner had no details as they bought it, with other items, in Chinatown, NYC. Unfortunately the little old lady that made the jerky passed away and took her " Ancient Chinese Secret " with her. Some 20 years later I have yet to find a recipe that seems close...JJ


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## DanMcG

chef jimmyj said:


> Years ago an Asian market in Lancaster PA carried a Sweet and Spicy Beef jerky that was fried after dehydrating.



Fried, as in deep fried? That would be interesting.


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## chef jimmyj

I have seen a few videos with jerky being air or sun dried then more of what I would say is Poached in oil at 225°F. The jerky sizzles but not hard fried. The video here is similar but the jerky I had was spicy with the flavor of ginger and mild garlic...JJ


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## DanMcG

Thanks Jimmy, I might have to hit the store for a london broil and try it.


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## Brisket Nerd

Great post.  Nice and easy to remember rule.


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## johnmeyer

Since we've decided to re-open this old thread, and since I missed it the first time around, let me take the opportunity to thank JimmyJ for his marvelous initial post. 

His OP reminds me of a business teacher I had who would try to get the class to work together to cut through a really convoluted problem by saying: "_Let common sense run rampant!_" 

The guidelines JimmyJ quoted, and that we've all seen posted here in SMF many times, are common sense and as such, they allow for us to use our own life experiences to guide us through the situations that guidelines (or even "rules") don't completely cover. 

Well done, JimmyJ!


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## banderson7474

how is it possible that davomaks isn't a part of this convo???


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## Bearcarver

I've seen a bunch of these "Danger Zone" threads, but I believe this is the first I saw this one.
However this is the best one, and it's easy for Peeps to understand.
Thanks for another "Good One" Jimmy!!
Like.

Bear


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## chef jimmyj

Thank you John, John and all for the kind words...JJ


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## bill ace 350

chef jimmyj said:


> You will often see this called, " The Rule " here at SMF. This RULE, a Guideline actually, is the most frequently misquoted and misused info on SMF. More perfectly good meat has gone in the garbage at the hands of this," RULE " then from folks cleaning their Refrigerator or Freezer!!!
> *
> Rules* have set parameters that cannot, under any circumstances, be exceeded...*Guidelines *set useful control points that need an action or review but leaves the operator open to interpret data and decide on action based on variables and changes.
> *
> Here is the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline...
> 
> Uncured Meat that is not Intact as in Ground, Injected*, Boned/Rolled &Tied or have multiple Punctures to insert flavorings, should be cooked at a temperature, 225+, that will get the Internal Temperature from 40 to 140 degree in 4 hours.*
> 
> If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is Intact, other than Therm Probe, it don't matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about.
> The reason for the term Guideline over Rule is because if the meat takes 4 hours and 5 minutes to reach 140, or 4.5, 5 or even 6 hours, is all lost? NO! We add variables that need consideration. Bacteria rapidly grows to Unsafe Levels in, " The Danger Zone, 40 degrees to 140 degrees, " *Only under PERFECT conditions. *Bacteria need the right Temp, Moisture Level, sufficient Food and Time to grow. Remove, reduce or affect any of these and growth slows or stops. Like most of us, bacteria don't just jump out of bed and go to work. If conditions go from one of no growth to a condition that sustains growth the bacteria need time, often hours to Wake up and start multiplying This is called the " Lag Time " before growth. Then they need more time to grow from a few to dangerous levels. Additionally, where one type can still survive at the extreme of 140, many others slow or stop growing at temps as low as 120 degrees and are killed at 130 degrees if held there for sufficient time. Are THESE bacteria an issue if we run over 4 hours? NO again, they were dead an hour or so ago. Now add ingredients that Inhibit Bacterial Growth like Salt, Sugar, Alcohol and Acid, with a Wet or Dry Brine, Marinade, even Injected*** and the 4 hours can be exceeded by a couple hours with no concern. *(*Injecting Chicken or Beef Broth is more of a concern, than injecting a high salt brine or marinade that contains salt, sugar, acid or alcohol.)*
> 
> Yes, we need to Cover our Butts and assume ANY or all types of bacteria may be on the meat and Handle it properly, watch smoker and internal temps, be aware of and follow "Guidelines".
> Yes, we are here to learn, teach and help each other. However if you are going to tell a member in a panic to, " Toss that DEADLY meat out! ", based on a Guideline...You better Know what the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline is and if YOU are unsure, reassure the panicked member to hang in there, that we can help and pass the question on.
> 
> You want a good " RULE "...It is *NOT*, " When in Doubt, Throw it out. " *At SMF the Rule is, " When in Doubt, PM somebody that KNOWS the answer! "...JJ*


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## bill ace 350

This is the type of post that provides valuable,  actionable information.  great stuff.


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## texaspro

"When in Doubt, PM somebody that KNOWS the answer"  ----  I like that! I am in need of some help, if you guys can assist. We're having a party tomorrow afternoon so I smoked two briskets yesterday. I've probably smoked 40 briskets in my life and have always done them by time and feel (225 smoker temp), except for yesterday. I know, I know... Wife bought me a fancy WiFi thermo so as soon as they hit 200 IT, I pulled them both. Needless to say, after resting the meet, they were way to tough/under cooked. My bad. I rested them and put them in the fridge to figure out later. Went online later and saw that many people have done this and remedied it by re-heating the briskets in the oven, wrapped, and with a carton of beef broth in the wrap. So, I told my wife to set them on the counter this morning at 6 am (I stay up late and get up late). It's now 5 hours later and I am realizing that if I am going to re-heat/cook them, I should probably wait until tomorrow to do so, so I don't have to refrigerate them again and then re-heat before serving. Plan is now to re-heat/cook them tomorrow before the party. 

So, here are my questions:

1) Am I screwed, since they sat out in room temp (72 degrees) for 5 hours or can my plan still work?

2) What temp would you recommend when cooking them a little more in the oven?

3) Is the beef broth a good idea?

4) Any other suggestions?

BTW, I know I screwed up and learned my lesson. I may use thermo's in the future, but will always go by feel and a minimum time. 

Thank you!!!

- texaspro (apparently not at brisket this time)


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## chef jimmyj

Tex, you are fine on sitting out. A 90% cooked, whole brisket is pretty inhospitable for bacterial growth. It's relatively dry, has a layer of Salt and Smoke is an anti-bacterial.
Wrapped or Easier yet, Panned with Broth and covered, will finish cooking to tender in a couple of hours at 325°F. Chop and Saute some Onion, Carrot and Celery, until gets golden. Add this to the Broth with a couple sprigs of Fresh Thyme, 1/2tsp Dry, and a Cup of Red Wine if available. Let the brisket cook and set aside to rest. Adjust the seasoning in the broth and strain. Hold Hot to serve the Beef AuJus. The Brisket will taste more like Pot Roast than Texas Brisket but, you will have rescued the meat and made a tasty meal...JJ


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## texaspro

Great to hear on the bacteria, thanks!

Also a great idea on the brisket. I'm guessing there's no way to save it as a normal brisket rather than a pot roast? I've heard of people using a cup of coffee instead of beef broth.


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## texaspro

Also, would you do fat side up or down, in the pan?


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## tallbm

texaspro said:


> Great to hear on the bacteria, thanks!
> 
> Also a great idea on the brisket. I'm guessing there's no way to save it as a normal brisket rather than a pot roast? I've heard of people using a cup of coffee instead of beef broth.



Hi there and welcome!

If your goal is to save it as a normal brisket I think that can be accomplished.  I say this because I've had to do it once before and I my mother smokes briskets all the time, puts them in the fridge and then reheats them the next day.  So I've eaten plenty that have gone through the process of refrigerating and then reheating and the reheat should help you fix your tenderness issue :)

I would suggest you put a temp probe in the thickest yet center most portion of the flat.
With the probe and wire hanging out wrap with 2 layers of foil in a way that will NOT let any moisture out (you may want to set the foil wrapped brisket in a pan just in case).

Adding a little beef broth won't hurt anything but I would suggest the amount just be enough to supplement keeping the brisket moist with it's own juices and not try to replace what you are not sure has even been lost.

Reheat in your oven until you hit about 200F and then at that point check for tenderness every few degrees until it is tender.   You just have be sure you put the brisket in to reheat in the oven at a temp that gives you enough time to get the brisket tender, be ready for the meal, and allow it some time to cool off some for slicing.

Technically you could pull the brisket right when it is ready and attempt to slice it but you may find that it wants to tear up or fall apart a bit more than if it were at like an Internal Temp (IT) of 160-165F.

I hope this info helps you with your plan and I'm confident you can make it happen.

If you want a surefire tender cut of meat I am also confident that JJ's approach will work as well if you decide to go that route.

Let us know if this makes sense and what you decide :)


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## texaspro

You guys are awesome. This is exactly the help I was looking for. 

Tallbm - with your method, do you recommend 325 for a few hours as well? They're about 11 lbs./each (point and flat).


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## chef jimmyj

Tallbm gave great advice. The Broth is essentially what changes Texas Brisket, or any tough Beef cut, into Pot Roast. You suggested you were going to add it, so I ran with the ball.  Re-heating/Finishing  dry or nearly dry, will give the closest result to fresh off the smoker. Good one Tall, didn't even think of your method...JJ


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## bill ace 350

Thanks Chef Jimmy

your posts are so much more useful than posting food recalls!


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## tallbm

texaspro said:


> You guys are awesome. This is exactly the help I was looking for.
> 
> Tallbm - with your method, do you recommend 325 for a few hours as well? They're about 11 lbs./each (point and flat).



Yeah that would work, the trick is trying to figure out how long you need at 325F for two 11 pound pieces of meat.
If you hit tenderness and pull 4-6 hours early that is not a problem because you can just make sure they tightly wrapped in the double layer of foil, set the meat on top of one another and wrap all of that in 3 large bath towels and it will stay hot no problem 4-6 hours and when you unwrap to slice it will still be plenty hot (my guess around 180F).

Now if you finish very close to eating/serving time you may have meat that wants to fall apart a bit more as you slice it. 
I really like about a 4 hour resting period so the meat can cool down just enough to behave better while slicing.

Another completely weird and/or lazy trick that works amazingly is to take a fully smoked brisket, double wrap in foil, and put in the fridge.  The next day slice it cold and arrange it back in the same foil and tightly wrap it again so it all pushes back together perfectly.  Then heat up the brisket to serving temp and serve when the meal/event happens.

What does this do?  It allows you to get perfect slices since the brisket is 100% fridge cold and won't tear up on you whatsoever.  This is a trick that people use if they overcook their briskets to a pull/shred/fall apart consistency when the brisket is pulled off the smoker.
This "lazy" technique works damn well... I know because my mother will super hot smoke a brisket in like 4-5 hours and not worry that it is pull/shred consistency.  She will refrigerate it.  The next day she pulls from the fridge, slices, tightly wraps in the foil, and then warm ups up the brisket and serve in chafing dishes for family gatherings.  The brisket is always amazing hahaha.
Also you can do a whole bunch of briskets this way a few days ahead of time and keep from a time crunch or from killing yourself trying to do everything at once.
We have a LAAAAAAAARGE extended family and family gatherings so these things are quite tried and tested hahahah :)


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## tallbm

chef jimmyj said:


> Tallbm gave great advice. The Broth is essentially what changes Texas Brisket, or any tough Beef cut, into Pot Roast. You suggested you were going to add it, so I ran with the ball.  Re-heating/Finishing  dry or nearly dry, will give the closest result to fresh off the smoker. Good one Tall, didn't even think of your method...JJ



Where you were going makes sense and is a surefire way to save a brisket.

With such a large extended family and the amount of Brisket I've been exposed to in TX I've seen all kinds ways to fool with a brisket though I personally didn't tackle smoking a brisket alone until I began my solo smoking journey not too long ago 

One of my favorite ways I see brisket saved or also "lazily" handled is that people smoke them with no care or consideration for pulling when tender and they then cut it into large pieces and put in a crock pot with some BBQ sauce (not an overdone amount).
From there they slice it in the crockpot for sliced brisket or just simply shred it (my favorite approach).
This leaves the meat tender and juicy no matter what! The applications become super versatile as well.
We're talking sliced brisket, chopped brisket, brisket sandwhiches, brisket tacos (mmm squeeze fresh lime on it), and brisket nachos! Hell I've seen plenty of BBQ brisket salads in my life as well from this approach hahaha.

I rarely see a brisket in Texas not turn out well


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## tallbm

texaspro said:


> You guys are awesome. This is exactly the help I was looking for.
> 
> Tallbm - with your method, do you recommend 325 for a few hours as well? They're about 11 lbs./each (point and flat).



So I have some more oven based time and temp info.
Yesterday I roasted in the oven a 4-5 pound Pork Butt cut (bone in).  
I put it in the oven uncovered at 350F around 11:30am and it hit 208F around 4:30pm.
I simply seasoned all over and put in an oil rubbed foil pan.  No covering, no broth, nothing but the meat in the pan and the pan in the oven on the middle rack.

Why does this matter? Well it should give you an idea that an unwrapped, uncooked, 5 pound piece of meat from the fridge took me 5 hours at 350F.

NOW, this did stall for a little bit since it was uncooked.
Also this was uncovered/unwrapped so no help from that end.
I think that a well double wrapped mostly cooked brisket at 350F would maybe have a faster cook than my raw uncovered pork butt however you know what to expect from my oven cook yesterday.

I think you could take your brisket to tenderness and then hold it wrapped in towels or even in the oven with the oven turned off for quite a few hours before serving.

This info should help you get your brisket tender and help you figure out a timeline.  Again it never hurts to finish a brisket 4-5 hours early, there is no solution for being late 

Best of luck!


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## texaspro

Fellas - One brisket turned out good, but the other is stew meat. I'd like to give/get feedback, but definitely don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have. I know some admins are pretty strict on that stuff and as a new member, I don't want to go pissing in someone's Cheerios, haha. Where would be the best place to post the results and a few questions? Again, I really appreciate all the help. Overall, it was a great birthday.


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## tallbm

texaspro said:


> Fellas - One brisket turned out good, but the other is stew meat. I'd like to give/get feedback, but definitely don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have. I know some admins are pretty strict on that stuff and as a new member, I don't want to go pissing in someone's Cheerios, haha. Where would be the best place to post the results and a few questions? Again, I really appreciate all the help. Overall, it was a great birthday.



Post under the Beef section about your brisket experience.  I look forward to reading the details :)


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## Bearcarver

texaspro said:


> Fellas - One brisket turned out good, but the other is stew meat. I'd like to give/get feedback, but definitely don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have. I know some admins are pretty strict on that stuff and as a new member, I don't want to go pissing in someone's Cheerios, haha. Where would be the best place to post the results and a few questions? Again, I really appreciate all the help. Overall, it was a great birthday.




Go here (below), click on Post New Thread (in box on right).
Then Start your own Thread, with Pics, if you have some.

Go here:
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forums/beef.101/


Bear


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## texaspro

Here it is - https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/two-briskets-new-thermometer.287222/


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## Americo4

Newbie- and can’t figure out how to start a new thread. My question is: 

Smoking a brisket. Started at 7pm last night at 225. Got up above 140. Smoker shut off a little after 4 am. Woke up at 7 am, internal temp was around 125f, internal temp now getting back up to 140 (8:00am)

Meat was not injected. 

Toss it, or keep smoking?


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## JckDanls 07

keep smoking... and read above about starting a new thread


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## chef jimmyj

Americo4 said:


> Newbie- and can’t figure out how to start a new thread. My question is:
> 
> Smoking a brisket. Started at 7pm last night at 225. Got up above 140. Smoker shut off a little after 4 am. Woke up at 7 am, internal temp was around 125f, internal temp now getting back up to 140 (8:00am)
> 
> Meat was not injected.
> 
> Toss it, or keep smoking?



You are fine. Surface bacteria are long gone and nothing internally to worry about.

To Post,  go to the appropriate forum, beef in this case.  Top right, hit post new thread and follow prompts...JJ


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## Motorboat40

I've never heard of that rule this a 1st for me, I've always smoked my pork butts which I usually inject with apple cider vinegar and apple juice mixture with spices the night b4. I smoke it around between215 and 230 preferably sometimes I get distracted and my temp has gone lower or higher but never been a problem. But I don't even start to check the internal temperature until about 6 hrs in, I just recently got a Ink bird wireless probe that can be view on a phone or tablet so now i set an alarm for when the smoker temp goes too low or too high. But I doubt the temp on some of the bigger butts reached 140 within 4 hrs amd we have never had any problems with the meat. My cousins wife is a food inspector and she said and the temperature I'm cook at and for the long periods of time any bacteria that might have been there have long been killed off but she was very pleased to see me use a meat thermometer to check if the meat was done or not.


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## Bearcarver

Motorboat40 said:


> I've never heard of that rule this a 1st for me, I've always smoked my pork butts which I usually inject with apple cider vinegar and apple juice mixture with spices the night b4. I smoke it around between215 and 230 preferably sometimes I get distracted and my temp has gone lower or higher but never been a problem. But I don't even start to check the internal temperature until about 6 hrs in, I just recently got a Ink bird wireless probe that can be view on a phone or tablet so now i set an alarm for when the smoker temp goes too low or too high. But I doubt the temp on some of the bigger butts reached 140 within 4 hrs amd we have never had any problems with the meat. My cousins wife is a food inspector and she said and the temperature I'm cook at and for the long periods of time any bacteria that might have been there have long been killed off but she was very pleased to see me use a meat thermometer to check if the meat was done or not.




Yup----Very little chance of a problem if all other safety factors are taken care of.
However, just like what happened to the nicest Old Lady I ever met. I had bought 12 acres from her, which is how I met her. One evening she was catching a bus to go to one of those "Mystery Church Dinner" things, and she parked her car across the highway, and started walking past a parked Van along Rt 663, apparently not looking both ways, and a truck took her out right there.
I'll bet she crossed the street many times, without looking both ways, and she never had a problem before.

Bear


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## chef jimmyj

Motorboat40, what you are doing is fine. The major point in that article is, 40 to 140 in 4, is a Good Guideline but not a Make It or Toss it Federal Regulation.
The most common use of this Guidline is, for example, determining if Injected meat is most likely still Safe when a you are smoking a Butt, you fall asleep and the Smoker Dies for X Hours.
Hit that 140 in the first 4 hours and there are Zero issues. If the Butt only got to 120 and the smoker was out 8 hours, you face a food illness risk from Bacterial Toxins. It is Extreme Situations that cause concern. If you are monitoring the IT and it takes 6 hours to get to 140 in a big butt, there is nothing to worry about because the IT was continuously rising and given Time, minutes to a couple of hours, Bacteria stops growing or Dies at 125 to 130°F. Death just happens fast at 140+.
What is Injected has to be taken into consideration too. Inject Acidic and Salty Liquids and they Inhibit Bacteria growth. The time to 140 is Less critical.  Inject Homemade Pork Stock or Broth that has been sitting in the Refer a week and 4 hours may not be Fast enough to stop Bacterial Growth and Toxin production!
So 40 to 140 in 4 is a great Tool to use as a Yard Stick in many situations but is far from being a Black or White, Do or Die Regulation/Rule...JJ


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## Motorboat40

Thanks I haven't fallen asleep for more than 2 hrs smoking before I have started at 2am before and set an alarm to catch cat naps throughout the night.


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## Bytor

So, I have a 9.5lb butt that I'm going to smoke.  I was wanting to take advantage of Mother Nature and her chilly weather to leave the butt on the smoker overnight and start things remotely around 3am tomorrow (I know, it does feel like I'm cheating some).  The temps going to go down to 43 give or take and it's already 47 out now at 8:30.  I figure I will put the meat out at around 11pm, so it will be out in the smoker for 4 hours at temps in the low 40's.  Internally, I'm sure it will be alright, not sure about the exterior  just wanted to see if there were any differing opinions.

Thanks


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## Bearcarver

Bytor said:


> So, I have a 9.5lb butt that I'm going to smoke.  I was wanting to take advantage of Mother Nature and her chilly weather to leave the butt on the smoker overnight and start things remotely around 3am tomorrow (I know, it does feel like I'm cheating some).  The temps going to go down to 43 give or take and it's already 47 out now at 8:30.  I figure I will put the meat out at around 11pm, so it will be out in the smoker for 4 hours at temps in the low 40's.  Internally, I'm sure it will be alright, not sure about the exterior  just wanted to see if there were any differing opinions.
> 
> Thanks




I'm about as strict as they get, and even I would say it should be OK to be in the low 40s for 4 hours before you hit the heat, as long as you do everything else right. That's only a couple degrees above Fridge Temp.
If you want to be sure, just get ahold of 

 chef jimmyj
 , and see what he has to say.

Bear


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## wfc08

I wish I had seen this last weekend. I had what was labeled a 8# Picnic Shoulder(which may have been my problem) to make pulled pork. I've read its not the best cut but can be done. All that was available on the bare shelf so I had to make due. I just trimmed the skin completely off as I do not make use of it like some, having never smoked this particular cut before I tried to get me as close to a Butt to get as much surface area to apply some rub. Anyways on at 12am at 225, went to bed, checked it at 7am(dome still at 225) but the IT was 139. The other mistake I made was inserting my probe when it first went on.  No Brine, No injection but I was worried about the 40-140 since I stuck it with a probe. I was smoking for my cousin and his young family so I didn't want to play around so I tossed it. 40-139 @ 225 in 7hrs seems very long. Was it the cut of meat or just a being a  bastard? Luckily it was early enough that I just ran out and got the first in line at my Meat Market and picked out an actual Boston Butt( had to go smaller due to the time ) but it all worked out aside from tossing the first cut.

Very informative post JJ and any tips or comments would be appreciated for down the road.


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## chef jimmyj

Assuming Bone-in and No Injection or holes punched in, 4 hours in the mid to low 40's is no issue. While some pathogens " Can Grow " at these low temps, it does not happen quickly. Days not 4 hours...JJ


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## chef jimmyj

wfc08
 The leave in the meat, from raw, Thermometer is almost 100 Years old. Millions are in household kitchens. In modern times we have Probe Thermometers. The instructions for both say to, " place in the center of the thickest portion or muscle of the meat and place in the oven. ". There is not or never has been a single word about waiting X hours before inserting...
There is no Blaze Orange Warning Label explaining the dangers of Inserting from Raw. And, as Litigious as Americans are, if the was ANY possibility of an issue, there would be multiple Stickers and Safety warnings in the instructions and on the packaging...The reason there are no warnings?
There is not a SINGLE documented case with the USDA, FDA or CDC, of anyone ever getting a food borne illness from the Insertion and use of a Thermometer or Probe in Raw Meat...JJ


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## wfc08

Thanks JJ.  I was concerned that since i put the probe in from the start of the smoke and the fact that it took 7hrs to get the picnic shoulder to 140 that it may be questionable. Now I know I was misinformed. Good info, I should have just let it ride and did a little more research before tossing it(moment of silence please). The Butt I put on afterwards flew past 140 in no time, just two different cuts of meat I guess, or maybe just one of those long head scratching smokes. IDK. Thanks again.


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## Bearcarver

wfc08 said:


> Thanks JJ.  I was concerned that since i put the probe in from the start of the smoke and the fact that it took 7hrs to get the picnic shoulder to 140 that it may be questionable. Now I know I was misinformed. Good info, I should have just let it ride and did a little more research before tossing it(moment of silence please). The Butt I put on afterwards flew past 140 in no time, just two different cuts of meat I guess, or maybe just one of those long head scratching smokes. IDK. Thanks again.




Yup---Those Dang Picnic Shoulders always took me a lot longer than my Boston Butts.
I don't even buy the Picnics any more!!

Bear


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## TheReluctantCraftstronaut

chef jimmyj said:


> If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is INTACT, other than Therm Probe, it don't matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about. Additionally, at 225°F, the meat surface will pass 140°F in 30 to 60 minutes or less, depending on the size of the meat. All surface bacteria is Killed and there is very little that can change that.



I have a 40-140 in 4 issue and I think I'm OK, but I'm curious what the SMF brain trust might have to say.

I'm currently smoking two 8.5 lb each BONELESS pork butts  in my MES 40 electric smoker. It's been 7 hours since meat went in at 32 deg. F and now it's at 132 and 135 IT for the two butts. I clearly didn't meet the guideline and normally if this was bone in, I wouldn't have much concern. Since these were boneless, there are some folds in the meat that are of concern for bacterial growth. My instinct is that the boned out areas are all likely well over 140 by now since I'm taking temp from the center of the thickest part of the butt.

Does SMF say press onward towards a full belly of pulled pork? Or take caution?

EDIT: All went well in the end. It took 19.5 hours total to get to 195-205 deg. F IT, but the flavor was great, pulled well, and no one got sick! I had two separate thermometers checking smoker temp and I was always around 235-245 deg F when I checked, so I'm not sure how to explain the long cook time, but it worked out in the end. I started pulling the smoker out of the garage at 4:30am on Friday morning and pulled the meat off at 1:30 am on Saturday. Chilled the wrapped butts in an ice bath to drop temp and then pulled before sticking them in the fridge. Reheated in the oven the next day with some of the saved juices and covered with foil.


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## JLeonard

chef jimmyj said:


> As far as Doing Things Wrong and you are still alive...Many of us have indulged in Risky behavior. The 80's was a blur for me! Cocaine, Unprotected Sex with many, many willing young ladies, Street Racing Muscle Cars, hell, we picked up a case of Beer to Cruse the streets or drive to the Beach. Drunk Driving was a Friday and Saturday Night event! And I'M still alive. But I know better now! That kind of behavior can Kill me, especially if my Wife found out, and stopped that silliness a long time ago. Back then I was Lucky! Now I am Smarter...JJ


Did we just become brothers? 
Jim


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## chef jimmyj

TheReluctantCraftstronaut said:


> I have a 40-140 in 4 issue and I think I'm OK, but I'm curious what the SMF brain trust might have to say.
> 
> I'm currently smoking two 8.5 lb each BONELESS pork butts  in my MES 40 electric smoker. It's been 7 hours since meat went in at 32 deg. F and now it's at 132 and 135 IT for the two butts. I clearly didn't meet the guideline and normally if this was bone in, I wouldn't have much concern. Since these were boneless, there are some folds in the meat that are of concern for bacterial growth. My instinct is that the boned out areas are all likely well over 140 by now since I'm taking temp from the center of the thickest part of the butt.
> 
> Does SMF say press onward towards a full belly of pulled pork? Or take caution?



I think you are ok. 4 hours is not a magic number and as you said the Cut area is to one side while the probe is centered. The Cut side is hotter. If this was Meatloaf I would worry, but I'd keep cooking ...JJ


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## hewl35

Need some reassurance on this brisket : I started my smoke at 6 Pm on a 9lb brisket point and a 9 lbs picnic pork shoulder. Smoker set at 225 with Amazen pellet maze for 4+ hours burning from both ends. 

The pork was injected with Long Island tea and liberally coated with a table blend of mrs dash when I got up at 4 am  the pork was 174 so no worries.

 The brisket however worries me I found it at 144* at 4 am, went into the smoker with 35* IT, no injection, but bathed in Long Island ice tea in a aluminum pan and Cavendish Greek Seasoning.  The high for yesterday was 38* and it’s 30* right now.

Foiled both pans  at 4 Am after  adding one can of cherry coke each. Raised temp to 240*.

Should I be worried about the brisket?


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## dr k

hewl35 said:


> Need some reassurance on this brisket : I started my smoke at 6 Pm on a 9lb brisket point and a 9 lbs picnic pork shoulder. Smoker set at 225 with Amazen pellet maze for 4+ hours burning from both ends.
> 
> The pork was injected with Long Island tea and liberally coated with a table blend of mrs dash when I got up at 4 am  the pork was 174 so no worries.
> 
> The brisket however worries me I found it at 144* at 4 am, went into the smoker with 35* IT, no injection, but bathed in Long Island ice tea in a aluminum pan and Cavendish Greek Seasoning.  The high for yesterday was 38* and it’s 30* right now.
> 
> Foiled both pans  at 4 Am after  adding one can of cherry coke each. Raised temp to 240*.
> 
> Should I be worried about the brisket?


No problem. Your brisket falls into the intact area of the first post:
If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is INTACT, other than Therm Probe, it don't matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about. Additionally, at 225°F, the meat surface will pass 140°F in 30 to 60 minutes or less, depending on the size of the meat. All surface bacteria is Killed and there is very little that can change that.


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## hewl35

dr k said:


> No problem. Your brisket falls into the intact area of the first post:
> If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is INTACT, other than Therm Probe, it don't matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about. Additionally, at 225°F, the meat surface will pass 140°F in 30 to 60 minutes or less, depending on the size of the meat. All surface bacteria is Killed and there is very little that can change that.


Thanks for the response it was what I was hoping for. 
Brisket is at 187* , moved to the bottom rack of the MES 40.  Just pulled the pork at 203,* peak at 210*, sat on the counter for more than 2 hrs before dropping below 180* and pulled great. First time using cave tools wolverine claws which was super easy and no burns.  
once again thanks .


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## M3 Pete

Question: even if you somehow introduced bacteria through a thermometer probe, or took too long to get the meat past 140, won't cooking pulled pork to 200 IT kill virtually anything that might be a problem?


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## dr k

M3 Pete said:


> Question: even if you somehow introduced bacteria through a thermometer probe, or took too long to get the meat past 140, won't cooking pulled pork to 200 IT kill virtually anything that might be a problem?


Right. That's what I quoted in post #62. If in doubt with responses in the first five pinned food safety forum threads, read posts #1 and use a digital therm with multiple probes and set the pit probe to a high low range like 145-290 that  sets off an alarm and that should alert you to a smoker issue so it doesn't become a food safety senario.


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## chef jimmyj

M3 Pete said:


> Question: even if you somehow introduced bacteria through a thermometer probe, or took too long to get the meat past 140, won't cooking pulled pork to 200 IT kill virtually anything that might be a problem?



First, A Probe will not introduce enough bacteria to be significant.
Our only concern is Ground, Injected, Punctured and filled with whatever, and Boned and Tied meat.
You are correct that eventually the heat will kill all Live Bacteria, so they are of no concern. The Problem is some Bacteria, like the super common Staphylococcus Aureus, generates TOXIN as it eats and multiplies. This Toxin is Heat Stable and no amount of Cooking will deactivate it's harmful effects.
An example would be...Smoking a Pork Button punched full of Garlic, in July. You fire up the smoker, add the meat and go running errands because you know it will take 12 hours to cook. You get back home 8 hours later to find the Smoker died, 1 hour after you added the meat. The meat has been sitting at a balmy 90°, a prime incubation temp, for 7 hours. You figure you will just finish the cook at 325°F, to kill Bacteria, until it will pull at an IT of 205...Everyone gets sick!
The culprit is the TOXIN not the Bacteria...JJ


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