# MYPIN TA4 PID manual, programming instructions and general PID/SSR info - by request



## dward51

Seems over the past few months I've gotten about a half dozen PM messages requesting more info on the MYPIN TA4 PID controller configuration, a copy of a better manual, or general assistance with MYPIN TA4 and SSR issues.  So, I thought I would just post some of the documents in a stand alone post to make it easier for people to find the info when they need it.

If you are not familiar with a MYPIN TA4 it is an inexpensive Chinese PID controller often found on E-bay for anywhere from $10 to $25.  Let me through this caveat out for those considering purchasing a TA4.  I have not personally purchased one, but I do know a little bit about them and how they work. There are a lot of "knock offs" of the real TA4's being sold on E-bay (who would thought inexpensive Chinese stuff would be "knocked off" by the Chinese, but I digress).  I also have heard of people who have bought them and they were dead out of the box and never worked properly.  So it's sort of like anything you buy for the lowest dollar possible on E-bay that comes from China, it will either work or be a total waste of your time & money.  With that out of the way, let's get started....

Note:***  I personally would go with one of the Auber Instruments PID controllers (not sure if they are a forum sponsor, so I don't want to post a direct link - but google it and it's easy to find).  There are a lot of people in here and on other forums who use their products.  Seem to be very good quality, have excellent customer service and tech support, and they are located in Alpharetta, Georgia (USA).  And their prices are very reasonable IMO.

The TA4 is just one of a housing style the TA series controller is available in.  I believe these guidelines would generally apply to all the TA series.













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__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






The MYPIN TA4 is a PID temperature control device similar to the Aubrin units which are popular with DIY type projects in both the BBQ smoking and home-brewing (beer!!!) communities.  It is a digital device that uses a temperature probe to sense the temperature of a process and apply a programed action at a user designated set point, either turning on or off another higher load device, such as a electric heating element in BBQ applications.  They can also control power draft fans, pumps, valves, and dang near any other electrical device you can think of.  The TA4 comes in several configurations, with the SSR (Solid State Relay) triggering output or Relay (dry contact relay or simple relay switch) being the most common.

General specifications for the TA4 and how to read the specifics of a particular model can be found in this chart:













MYPIN TA4 model info.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 6, 2013






Here is a PDF of the full product info and configuration guide:

https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/5/55/5585f942_MYPINTA4productinfopage.pdf

Here is the pin out schematic for the wiring of the screw terminals on the back of the TA4:













Mypin TA4 pin out schematic.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






Here is a photos of the schematic on an TA4 (each units should have this schematic and I have been told there are some that differ from the general schematic MYPIN published, *if the schematic on the side of your MYPIN is different that the drawing above, use the one on the actual PID!*)













mypin_component_926.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






Here is the factory MYPIN TA series manual:

https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/7/77/77db1c39_MypinTA4manual1.pdf

*Here is a better version of the manual that is much clearer on the actual configuration of the various functions of the PID.  This is the document I seem to receive the most emails & PM's on requesting.  I found a newer revision than the one I've been sharing, and this is the latest version I have:*

https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/6/60/601df7c1_MYPINTA4PIDInstructionManual-goodone.pdf

Now I'm not the end all Guru on PID's and SSR's but I'm more than happy to help when I think I can.  There are plenty of others in this forum who feel the same way (and probably know more than I ever will), so please feel free to post questions here and I'll try to help. 

I've got some general smoker PID to SSR & heating element schematics I will post once I tweak them a little bit.  But this is a start.


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## goingcamping

Dave,

Been a while! Hope you and yours is doing well?!

You're once again spot on when it comes to the PID stuff! I'm still having good luck with my Chinese knock-off of a Japanese PID that I bought with an SSR from ebay for $21...mind you after I removed the mechanical relay from the board! I didn't use a heat sink, I used an old computer fan that pulls all the air away from the SSR and other electronics. I have smoked for 24 hours straight more than a few times and the PID has not even given me a hiccup!

I just got a project boat, so I've been on the forums less often, still smoking away the peppers for chipotle and almonds, jerky, butts, brisket and ribs...

~Brett

P.S. didn't mean to hi-jack the the thread!


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## miamirick

Dude,  you lost me at the title block!


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## dward51

goingcamping said:


> I just got a project boat, so I've been on the forums less often, still smoking away the peppers for chipotle and almonds, jerky, butts, brisket and ribs...
> 
> ~Brett
> 
> P.S. didn't mean to hi-jack the the thread!


No hijack at all.  And you know what BOAT means . . . .   "Bust Out Another Thousand"  (I have my own hole in the water into which I pour money).  At the moment I need 5 new load range D tires to the tune of about $875.  So it's sitting on the trailer.


miamirick said:


> Dude, you lost me at the title block!


Ok, suggestions as to what would be better?  I keep getting PM's asking for info, copies of the docs etc....  Figured it would show up in a search and made sense to make it a thread.  Or is the word MYPIN TA4 the turn off?  (not my choice either)


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## goingcamping

dward51 said:


> No hijack at all.  And you know what BOAT means . . . .   "Bust Out Another Thousand"  (I have my own hole in the water into which I pour money).  At the moment I need 5 new load range D tires to the tune of about $875.  So it's sitting on the trailer.



This is a 1995 Chris Craft 197 Concept Bowrider. It has a 5.0L Volvo-Penta (220HP) with the Volvo Penta/OMC Cobra SX drive. Newer trailer. The Boat's been sitting for 5 years in a storage lot...possibly needs a new motor (improper winterizing 5 years ago, hence why it's been sitting and price!) and vinyl then it should be a good little boat?! The Price was right (Free 99 free)

BTW,  I've been told by many plane owners/pilots...boat owners have no idea how to spend money...I'm inclined to believe 'em!

~Brett


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## shtrdave

Thank you for the information I have been wanting to build something, but not really sure where to start, now I have the information on this part of the project.

As for the Boat thing I was always told "The 2 happiest days in a boat owners life, the day they bought it and the day they sold it."


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## dward51

Guess I'll hijack my own thread.....

here is my "hole in the water into which I pour money".  I have two of them (sort of like smokers, you start to collect them).  The Skeeter is the one needing $850 in tires right now.  It's stuck at the house until I get them.  Not worth rolling the dice to drive to the lake with that heavy beast on old tires and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere with little options to find tires.

2001 22' Skeeter ZX2200 Bay boat with 200HP Yamaha HPDI & 17.5' Lowe 170SP with 25hp Johnson (electric only and small lake boat).  The Skeeter is like a bass boat on steroids and laughs at fresh water wakes & waves.  The Lowe is not a small boat and is a 17x56 format.  It looks like a bath tub toy next to the big skeeter though.













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__ Sep 15, 2013


















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__ Sep 15, 2013


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## deerducksmoker

I would not recommend this unit.  I will likely be returning mine.  It is reading 16 degrees too cold and there is not way to add to the offset, only to subtract.  They admitted it's a bug in the software that they forgot to add addition functionality.


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## deerducksmoker

I can't link to the source because of the no-link policy here, but I found a bullet making forum (they use these things to melt lead too) where a guy was in touch with MYPIN and got this response:'

_I have been in touch with Mypin recently.

They are a little 'embarrassed'. In fact they won't answer me right now.
It seems there is a bug in the PvF setting 
	

		
			
		

		
	








You can't set a negative. They were rather shocked to discover this.
When ever they find an 'oops' and there was one other recently.
< they did a board revision and miffed on the connections. Shipments were on hold for a month while they fixed a few 1000 units >
They go silent. I think it's a hold over from the bad old commie days.
It's better to say nothing then admit a screwup.

The 'good' news is the unit very rarely needs a negative -the error, if there is one, is by far the other way._


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## dward51

Like I said in my initial post on this, it's a crap shoot buying low buck items from China.  But apparently sometimes they do work.

I also noticed another issue for those who have TA4's or want to roll the dice and see if they get a good one.  The schematics in the "official" MYPIN manual and the schematics on the sides of actual TA4 units can show totally different temperature probe hook ups.  The terminal numbers are not consistent.  Given their "ooops" with the software, would it be a far walk to find out there was also an "ooops" in either the printing of the labels or the manual?

Here is what I'm talking about:

This image is cut directly from the "official" MYPIN TA series manual PDF which I found at their English language section of their website when I started this thread last week.  Note the K-type temperature probe should be connected to terminals 7 & 8 in this schematic. Also note the indicated polarity of the probe leads. This is the schematic for the TA4.













Mypin TA4 pin out schematic.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






Then note the schematic in this label which is from an actual photo of a TA4 PID controller.  The K-type temperature probe is shown to be connected to terminals 8 & 9 instead of 7 & 8 as in the PDF.  Not only are the terminal designations flipped, but again look at the indicated polarity of the terminals for a K-type probe.  Totally reversed (positive on top terminal in this image, where the PDF schematic has negative on top terminal). The terminal pin out designations for terminals 7 through 9 are totally different from the factory PDF schematic.  It looks like one is a mirror image of the other.  So here might be a clue....













mypin_component_926.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 15, 2013






So given their apparent admission to a programming "ooops" in the offset, how far a walk is it to assume they might have also screwed up the printing of the labels.  I would think if they screwed up the PDF, that's a 2 second fix and would not cost them anything.  You make the image change on the computer and re-distill the PDF to publish to the web.  But if they screwed up thousands of labels, that's not a free fix.  Much less admitting your mistake and having to try and recall units shipped out the door (a Chinese recall?  That's a good one....).  This is the logic behind my thinking the label might incorrect, or they may have multiple incarnations of internal wiring and the wrong labels get put on the wrong TA4 from time to time.

DeerDuckSmoker and I have been holding a side PM conversation about this, but I wanted to put it in the thread as well.   If you have issues with a temperature probe on a MYPIN TA4, try both of the schematic settings described above.  It should not hurt the PID or the probe if you have it one way and the PID is internally wired to the other.

Hopefully this will help him out (and others).


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## jimbode

I just set up a simple experiment to test my understanding of the TA4 and SSR.   

All worked very well and after AT it kept my soldering iron at 200 degrees +- 5.      I observed that in normal controlling mode SV and PV are as expected.

If SET is presses the SV begins displaying a different parameter which is varying fairly rapidly  over time.

Usually between 0 and 25 .    

Pressing SET just toggles the SV display  between the set temperature and this varying number.

Does any one know what this  other number this  represents?   

 Thanks

           - Jim


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## steve920

My apologies in advance for "hijacking" the thread or posting off topic, as I'm a screen printer looking for some assistance with the MYPIN TA4. I've picked apiece the internet and have wrecked my brain trying to figure this out. It seems that this forum might have the most insight on my particular problem. 

I'm using the MYPIN to replace a burnt out FUJI temperature controller (Pictured). The MYPIN would ideally control two heating elements in a conveyor dryer (Just as the FUJI controller did before it burnt out).  I believe I have the wiring hooked up correctly to the new MYPIN, but when I power the machine on, it the MYPIN doesn't seem to be working correctly. The actual temperature value will exceed the set value on the MYPIN and continue to climb without stopping at any point. 

I'm frustrated as I'm not sure if the error is on my end, or the controllers. This is the second MYPIN I have tried in this machine with the same exact problem. I appreciate ANY help or insight someone man have to offer here, and will go to the extent of offering some FREE shirts to anyone that may be able to help!

Again I apologize for posting in this forum as I'm not a BBQ-er, (only amateur) but it seems this community is very knowledgeable on the subject! Thanks in advance for any help, and if anymore info or pictures are required please let me know and I'll post them up ASAP!

 













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__ steve920
__ Dec 1, 2013






Old Controller (Left) and New (Right)













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__ Dec 1, 2013






(TOP of old unit)













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__ Dec 1, 2013






(Wiring config of old unit, slot "7" also has another "11" wire connected)













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__ Dec 1, 2013






(Wiring diagram of old unit, wasn't hooked up exactly as this when I got the dryer but was functioning properly)













20131119_165539.jpg



__ steve920
__ Dec 1, 2013






(Wiring of MYPIN as it is now, one additional jumper not pictured, I can provide a better picture if need be)


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## slippin

I'm thinking about using one of these for an air draft fan.

The electric fan I was looking at required 0.3a at 12v, and the TA4 only outputs 30ma in 24v.

Is there a SSR that will convert 24v to 12v and increase power enough to run the fan?

Do I even need a SSR?

Thanks for the help, (Most of this stuff is over my head, lol)

Slippin


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## goingcamping

Slippin said:


> I'm thinking about using one of these for an air draft fan.
> The electric fan I was looking at required 0.3a at 12v, and the TA4 only outputs 30ma in 24v.
> Is there a SSR that will convert 24v to 12v and increase power enough to run the fan?
> Do I even need a SSR?
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> Slippin



The SSR is not a step down transformer, it's merely a switch that requires minimal input to turn on/off, which completes a circuit and therefore activates whatever you're running. It's a relay (Solid State Relay=SSR). You want a step down transformer. Look on ebay or at radio shack?


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## goingcamping

dward51 said:


> Guess I'll hijack my own thread.....
> 
> here is my "hole in the water into which I pour money".  I have two of them (sort of like smokers, you start to collect them).  The Skeeter is the one needing $850 in tires right now.  It's stuck at the house until I get them.  Not worth rolling the dice to drive to the lake with that heavy beast on old tires and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere with little options to find tires.
> 
> 2001 22' Skeeter ZX2200 Bay boat with 200HP Yamaha HPDI & 17.5' Lowe 170SP with 25hp Johnson (electric only and small lake boat).  The Skeeter is like a bass boat on steroids and laughs at fresh water wakes & waves.  The Lowe is not a small boat and is a 17x56 format.  It looks like a bath tub toy next to the big skeeter though.
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I like that Skeet Dave! I sold my Baja with a 200 Mercury Blackmax last year...I got the aforementioned Chris Craft (1996 Concept 18) Rebuilt the small block ford 302, now have a nice little runner.


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## slippin

Thanks for the quick reply goingcamping,

Would something like this work: 
is the amperage there to supply a small electric motor like this one:
Thanks again for all the help. :)


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## slippin

Thanks for the quick response goingcamping,

If I got a voltage step down would the amperage be high enough to run a draft fan?

If not, what would I need to increase the amperage enough run the fan?

Thanks for all your help!

(Sorry for asking such trivial questions, this stuff is way above my understanding. lol)


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## dward51

Steve920 said:


> My apologies in advance for "hijacking" the thread or posting off topic, as I'm a screen printer looking for some assistance with the MYPIN TA4. I've picked apiece the internet and have wrecked my brain trying to figure this out. It seems that this forum might have the most insight on my particular problem.
> 
> I'm using the MYPIN to replace a burnt out FUJI temperature controller (Pictured). The MYPIN would ideally control two heating elements in a conveyor dryer (Just as the FUJI controller did before it burnt out).  I believe I have the wiring hooked up correctly to the new MYPIN, but when I power the machine on, it the MYPIN doesn't seem to be working correctly. The actual temperature value will exceed the set value on the MYPIN and continue to climb without stopping at any point.
> 
> I'm frustrated as I'm not sure if the error is on my end, or the controllers. This is the second MYPIN I have tried in this machine with the same exact problem. I appreciate ANY help or insight someone man have to offer here, and will go to the extent of offering some FREE shirts to anyone that may be able to help!
> 
> Again I apologize for posting in this forum as I'm not a BBQ-er, (only amateur) but it seems this community is very knowledgeable on the subject! Thanks in advance for any help, and if anymore info or pictures are required please let me know and I'll post them up ASAP!


Steve,

Sorry it has taken me so long to even see this post.  I guess I'm slacking in my old age.  Odd thing is I used to run a textile screen business on the side as well.  What model dryer are you repairing?   I have a no-name "franken-dryer" that was made by a Spec Screen Supply in Atlanta in the 80's that is on an unknown number of modifications. Running three 4,500 wattlow IR panels and 3 forced air recirculation blowers (made for water based ink curing).  You can watch the meter spin when this baby is at full output. I'm at least the 3rd owner.  I also currently have a Hopkins Pro-line 6 head 4 station manual press in mothballs as I have not printed in a while.  Ok, back to the questions.....

Ok, off to the schematics.....

I have bad news. I seriously doubt the MYPIN will work. 

*DO NOT USE THE DRYER UNTIL YOU VERIFY WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY, AS IF I'M RIGHT THIS IS DANGEROUSLY MIS-WIRED!*

Here is a a cropped photo of you FUJI PYZ-4 schematic.













Fuji PID.jpg



__ dward51
__ Dec 16, 2013






Here is a rotated image of the dryer schematic.













textile dryer schematic.jpg



__ dward51
__ Dec 16, 2013






See how they have terminals 8 & 4 connected.  That means you have full AC line voltage on terminal 4 which is one leg of the output.  Terminal 5 is the other leg, which they show going to the SSR's.   First red flag went up when I saw this.  Next look at the relay data from the schematic.  It shows the SSR's are model A2440's.  A quick google of that model number confirmed my fears.  That is a AC-AC SSR and not the typical DC-AC SSR that is controlled by smoker type PID's.  You have a SSR that is triggered by line voltage and not low voltage DC. 

Depending on what model of MYPIN and how it's configured, I doubt it's going to work.  99% of the ones I've seen are set for DC low voltage output to trigger a DC-AC SSR.  If you moved the wires like I think you did, you have put full line voltage onto a terminal that should not have line voltage on it.  You probably have already blown the MYPIN PID internally which is why the heaters are not being controlled. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad new, but based on the schematic for your dryer, your SSR is a Crydom A2440 and that is a 40 amp AC triggered SSR (which matches the schematic on the old PID and the rest of the dryer schematic you posted).


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## slippin

Thanks for the idea, I am almost done with my fan controller set up.

All that's left is to build the fan mount.

Check it out!



Thanks!


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## slippin

Just finished making the fan mount!












IMG_20140118_141657_792.jpg



__ slippin
__ Jan 18, 2014


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## dward51

Slippin,

Sorry I apparently missed your original question post.  Guess I got distracted by what appeared to be a dangerous wiring job in another one just prior to yours.

Looks like you solved the issue though.


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## dward51

Slippin said:


> Thanks for the idea, I am almost done with my fan controller set up.
> 
> All that's left is to build the fan mount.
> 
> Check it out!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



That is so cool.  First time I've seen a PID in a home-brew application of a power draft clone. Great idea though.

And dude, turn up the heat!  67 degrees in the kitchen?  My wife would shoot me (she was saying it was cold in here a little while ago and it's 74).


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## slippin

dward51 said:


> That is so cool.  First time I've seen a PID in a home-brew application of a power draft clone. Great idea though.
> 
> And dude, turn up the heat!  67 degrees in the kitchen?  My wife would shoot me (she was saying it was cold in here a little while ago and it's 74).


Thanks Dward!

67 degrees here in Wisconsin is nice and toasty! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Smoked some ribs using the PID fan controller and they turned out great!













IMG_20140119_184150_622[1].jpg



__ slippin
__ Jan 20, 2014


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## btberlin

If you Google" PID controller PV"  you will find a wikipedia article that explains how PID controllers work.  Here is a small snip from the explanation about PV, which is the value that changes rapidly when you press the set key on thr MyPin controller.

A *process variable*, *process value*  or *process parameter*  is the current status of a process under control. An example of this would be the temperature of a furnace. The current temperature is called the process variable, while the desired temperature is known as the set-point.

Measurement of process variables are important in controlling  a process. The process variable is a dynamic feature of the process which may change rapidly. Accurate measurement of process variables is important for the maintenance of accuracy in a process. There are four commonly measured variables which affect chemical and physical process: pressure,temperature, level and flow.

Next is suppose you would want to know what the value of knowing the size of the process value is - that is, what the point of displaying it is.  That, unfortunately, I cannot answer.  :)

b


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## dward51

When using a PID with a temperature sensor, the PV or "process value" is the temperature measured.  The "set point value" is the desired temperature you want the controller to maintain by controlling a heat source.

The reason it's called "process" value in industrial applications is you may be measuring other things than temperature.  Examples are pressure, flow rate, rpm, etc....  PID stands for "Proportional Interval Derivative" controller.  Translated more closely to English, that means it's an electronic device that uses algorithms (math) to calculate the error or difference between a process value and a set point value (what it currently is compared to what you want it to be) and then takes some action to reduce the calculated error by controlling an external function.  If you can measure something with a sensor, you can use a PID device to control an external force acting on what you are measuring.  It may be turning on/off a heating element like we do in a smoker, opening/closing a valve in a micro-brewery, etc....

Some processes need to be tracked closely, which is why you have digital displays.  The temperature point we need to maintain in a smoker is not as critical as most industrial applications and a PID is really overkill for what we need.  But they are so inexpensive and do work well.  As to how close a set point is maintained, that depends on the device acting on the process (heating element) and the programing values input into the algorithm in the PID controller.


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## btberlin

I'm afraid I am not convinced by your explanation, so perhaps you can clarify better.  On the MyPin  TA4 controller, there is a large digital display of the measured temperature, which you are describing as the process value or PV.  What was questioned in the part of this thread that I replied to, was what the rapidly changing value is - the one that appears when you press the "set" button, to toggle the lower display from the set value.  That row of LEDs is labeled SV/PV.  If, as you describe, the PV, or rapidly changing value is the instantaneous state of the process being controlled, the explanation is not at all consistent with what is seen - which is a rapidly changing value that changes with the rightmost digit of the displayed value, but whose values are ranging from "0" to perhaps "10" or so.  My measured value (right now a water bath for a rye sour starter) is in the range of 72-75 deg F, and the PV is all over the place from 0 to 10, as I mentioned.

bert


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## btberlin

I am actually reading the legend on the front of the controller incorrectly.  The "PV" legend is meant to be for the row of large LEDs above the legend, and the "SV" legend for the row of smaller LED's below.  So, yes, the PV is the process variable, or in my case the temperature at the TC.  However, that was not what the original question was about.  When you press the set button, the SV row toggles between the value that you want the controlled process to reach, and a rapidly changing display that looks more like an error value.  That rapidly changing value is what the original poster was interested in.  I would assume it somehow represents the error between the set value and the process variable value.  I did notice that when it is occasionally "0" the last digit of the PV doesn't change.  Or so it seems.

bert


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## dward51

btberlin said:


> I am actually reading the legend on the front of the controller incorrectly.  The "PV" legend is meant to be for the row of large LEDs above the legend, and the "SV" legend for the row of smaller LED's below.  So, yes, the PV is the process variable, or in my case the temperature at the TC.  However, that was not what the original question was about.  When you press the set button, the SV row toggles between the value that you want the controlled process to reach, and a rapidly changing display that looks more like an error value.  That rapidly changing value is what the original poster was interested in.  I would assume it somehow represents the error between the set value and the process variable value.  I did notice that when it is occasionally "0" the last digit of the PV doesn't change.  Or so it seems.
> 
> bert


Pushing the SET button will toggle between the "normal" PV/SV display and PV/OUTPUT display.  You are correct that this gives you a visual representation of the error the unit is calculating and "0" is at set point.  As to what useful function this optional display mode serves, I can't answer that one either.  I'm sure there is some need for it in one industry or another or they would not have put it there.  I know there is a way to force a TA4 into a manual "duty cycle" timed switching mode and I think it comes into play there but I have never tried that.


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## dward51

Also the fellow who made the best English MYPIN manual I've seen, recently released an updated version of the manual.  Revised in November 2013.  Main revision is he added a summary of what the default setting should be for most temperature controlling setups on page 15.  It shows what user needs to change and what should be left alone.


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## mavrik

I would like some help with the mypin controller. I want to run this on proportional, in other words, the voltage output varies with the demand. I'm using a 3-32DCV SSR. I'm not sure what the controller settings should be, but here is the current settings that seem relevant, most are controller default. 

PUF  0.0
P 33
I 24
d 0.04
hys 100
ctl 001  also tried on 020

The voltage to the SSR is aways around 1V no matter on the demand. The second SV number (I assume this is the proportional % output) does change, OUT1 flashes like it's is delivering proportional. It looks like it's working but without voltage output to the the SSR.


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## invictaslave

hey guys,

I have a mypinTA4 and yes the 3 and 4 terminal on the paperwork is fliped from the actual PID but anyway I found that out after a frusterating trouble shoot

anyway my question is when I set my pid to a certain temp say 200 degrees the PID fires the SSrelay just fine for the first 140 degrees and then it flickers on and off for a good hour befor reaching its programmed temp of 200 and does not acually stop at the 200 degrees it goes over about 4 degrees and continues to flicker and slowly raises the temp  any thoughts?

invictaslave


----------



## mavrik

The hysteresis is too high invictaslave.


----------



## btberlin

I think that taking a look at the Wikipedia article about PID controllers may help you understand better.  

The SSR is NOT a proportional device - it is like a binary switch which is either on or off.  Once the on threshold voltage is reached on an SSR, on the control side, the switched side, which is switching the 120 VAC to your heater is on.  Period.  What is proportional is the TIME that the SSR stays on, and that is controlled by taking into account past, present and probable future deviations of the output from the set value.  So, what you as a user will notice is that well below the set point temperature, the SSR switches ON the heater.  AS it gets closer to the set point temp, it starts to pulse the heater, on-off-on-off and so on.  When the set point is reached, it may continue to pulse depending on various factors and settings.  For example, there is hysteresis, which is an intentional zone of delay in temperature control, so that the SSR doesn't "bounce" on and off rapidly.  YOur best bet is to set the desired temperature, and press the button to turn on the learning mode, and let the controller decide how best to control the setup- it will account for past, present and likely future errors depending on how fast the heater heats up, the thermal mass of the heated mass and so on, and will likely come up with the best settings.  

One other thing - i had a MyPin pid and type K TC, in which the displayed temp drifted significantly.  I wrote to the manufacturer's rep via AliBaba, and they indicated that it was not an unexpected thing with K thermocouples.  Her advice, to rule out the PID itself, was to short the input for the thermocouple with a piece of wire.  That should produce a steady temp display.  I haven't tried it, as the vendor i purchased from via Amazon took the problem as a PID problem, and refunded my money, and I purchased a different unit which is more steady.  But for anyone reading this thread who is experiencing drifting temperature display, say, in an ice-water bath, try the trick of shorting the TC terminals on the PID to see if it is the PID or the TC.

bert


----------



## btberlin

To Mavrik - additional info - add to my last post a few minutes ago.  This is from Wikipedia:

A *solid-state relay (SSR)*  is an electronic switching device that switches states when an external voltage is applied along its n-type and p-type junctions. SSR has a small control signal that controls a larger load current or voltage. It consists of a sensor which responds to an appropriate input (control signal), a solid-state electronic switching device which switches power to the load circuitry, and some coupling mechanism to enable the control signal to activate this switch without mechanical parts. The relay  may be designed to switch either AC or DC to the load. _*It serves the same function as an electromechanical *__*relay, but has no moving parts.*_

I underlined and bolded the relevant parts for emphasis.

b


----------



## mavrik

Sorry my terminology is incorrect. That is fine if it times on/off instead of variable voltage.  But right now it's not doing either, that is the largest issue.


----------



## btberlin

Mavrik

Sorry - i misunderstood what you were getting at.  If I recall correctly (I am not at home, and can't check directly), the AL1 output is also a low-voltage control output that would trigger an SSR.  So, you could hook the SSR to that temporarily and see if it fires when the set point is exceeded.  Make the setpoint let's say 20 degrees  below ambient so the AL1 lamp lights.  If the SSR does trigger, then there is a problem with the ssr output.  If it doesn't, either the ssr (which as I recall is polarized on the control side) is defective or the PID is defective.  You could, I suppose, try to fire the SSR with a couple of 1.5V batteries in series, which should reach the fire threshold for the SSR.

One question i would always ask, as a support engineer - did this setup EVER work? and stop working at some point?  Or is this a new setup for you?  If it did work at one time, walk back to the point at which it worked, and see what changed.  If not, and you bought the MyPin, say from Amazon, you should be able to get your money back and buy a replacement.

Hope this helps.

Bert


----------



## handymanstan

invictaslave said:


> hey guys,
> 
> I have a mypinTA4 and yes the 3 and 4 terminal on the paperwork is fliped from the actual PID but anyway I found that out after a frusterating trouble shoot
> 
> anyway my question is when I set my pid to a certain temp say 200 degrees the PID fires the SSrelay just fine for the first 140 degrees and then it flickers on and off for a good hour befor reaching its programmed temp of 200 and does not acually stop at the 200 degrees it goes over about 4 degrees and continues to flicker and slowly raises the temp  any thoughts?
> 
> invictaslave


When the temp gets to about 180 and it is set to 200 hit auto tune and that should fix it. 

Stan


----------



## mavrik

On mine (TA7) the AL1 is a relay contact. I need the proportional control, so using the AL1 relay won't help. This is a new install. What I would like to know if someone has this running, what is your voltage of the 'out1 SSR'?


----------



## btberlin

Mavrik - I also suggested using a couple of batteries in series to trigger the SSR, just to try to isolate the problem.  If you can do that, disconnect the control side of the SSR, and connect a battery source (check the specification for the on voltage for the SSR - you need to apply that to the control side to turn the load side "on.") you should be able to isolate the failure as either the PID or the SSR.  Also, i suggested the AL1 output as a diagostic "trick," not to use it for controlling the load.  I believe, given the triggering range for the SSR, that hooking it up to the AL1 output would trigger the SSR - again, just as a diagnostic step, not to use the AL1 output for controlling your heater.  Which SSR are you using? Did it come with a spec sheet? What is the "on" voltage on the control side?

I am away from home until March 5, so if you get no answer before then, and are still working on this project, I can measure the "on" voltage at the SSR control terminals on my PID.  In the meanwhile, if you try one of the ideas above, you may be able to diagnose the problem on your own.

bert


----------



## mavrik

I found the problem; There was no contact between the inside circuit board to the outside terminals to 'out1 ssr'.  I filed and put some goo on the inside clip. Now it works like a champ.


----------



## dward51

Mavrik said:


> I would like some help with the mypin controller. *I want to run this on proportional, in other words, the voltage output varies with the demand.* *I'm using a 3-32DCV SSR.* I'm not sure what the controller settings should be, but here is the current settings that seem relevant, most are controller default.
> 
> PUF 0.0
> P 33
> I 24
> d 0.04
> hys 100
> ctl 001 also tried on 020
> 
> The voltage to the *SSR is aways around 1V no matter on the demand*. The second SV number (I assume this is the proportional % output) does change, OUT1 flashes like it's is delivering proportional. It looks like it's working but without voltage output to the the SSR.


I'm a little late getting to the party on this one, but here we go....

As to "proportional", the MYPIN will not vary the voltage proportionally to a SSR.  An SSR sees a triggering voltage, which can be within a certain wide range, and it then flips "on" like a mechanical relay, just with no moving parts.  In essence it is a digital switch controlled by a DC triggering voltage.  In your post quoted above you are using a 3 to 32v DC triggered SSR so any voltage between 3 and 32 volts DC will give the same result.  The SSR triggers and the load on the output side is powered (the digital switch closes completing the power circuit).  3 volts does not give any different response than 32 volts so the value of the voltage is irrelevant as long as it is in the acceptable working range of 3 to 32v DC.

A PID is a three mode controller.  PID stands for *proportional-integral-derivative,  *and the three values are normally working in concert with each other to perform the desired function.  To just use a controller as  proportional mode only unit defeats the whole purpose of using a PID.  The output is generally either a static relay or a DC triggering voltage in 99% of the MYPIN's I've seen.  There is a way to manually set the proportional value if an auto-tune fails, but again the output is a either a static relay or DC triggering voltage.

*If you are wanting a variable voltage output , it has to be a certain configuration MYPIN (output type code is "D"). Variable voltage will not work in concert with a SSR either. Variable voltage output MYPIN's are not that common, but they are out there. The most common will have SSR triggering output and/or static relay output.  What model do you have?* (should be on the sticker - post the full model number and a photo of the sticker would be best).


----------



## dward51

Well, nevermind.  Looks like you figured it out.


----------



## bbryon

I have to say I'm impressed with the knowledge of these guys that like to smoke meat. SCR's Triacs, reminds me of my old technician days. There is not a lot of day to day people who know the function and how to test a triac(SSR). This kind of stuff gets me excited.


----------



## thunderjosh

Hello I have the mypin ta7  and the issue I'm having is the blower runs almost to my desired temp and starts pulsing at about 4 degrees before, then I way over shoot my desired temp.  I would like it to start pulsing around 20 degrees before my desired temp not 4. How do I set this. This is set up on a bbq smoker.


----------



## slippin

Hi guys, 

I got my Smoker up and running this weekend using the the temp controller.

Overall I am very impressed with it, It ran +/- 5° throughout the majority of my smoke. (Except when I opened the lid to wrap the ribs, however it settled down rather quickly) 

Thunderjosh, I am not using the pulse function on mine. When initially heating up I have that issue, however after 20-30min it seems to settle down with the heat fluctuations.

The ribs turned out great!













IMG_20140322_163725_684[1].jpg



__ slippin
__ Mar 24, 2014






Here is a video I made of it working:



Thanks for starting this thread Dward51, without all the information you posted I wouldn't have even attempted to make a temp controller!


----------



## thunderjosh

How low does your temp get before the fan turns on?  At bbq comp I run 225 degrees,  I fired my smoker with outside temp of 40 degrees and the fan runs constant till 221 degrees. Then pulses till 225 and shuts off.  After it shuts off I hit temps 30-40 degrees over because it stoked the fire so long. I run 20 lbs of lump on start up.  If  I get it to start pulsing before the destination it may not over shoot as bad. I have a huge back woods clone that I just finished and trying to get tuned. And will the auto tune function work for me. I don't understand how it works.. Thanks Josh[ATTACHMENT=1235]













image.jpg



__ thunderjosh
__ Mar 31, 2014


















image.jpg



__ thunderjosh
__ Mar 31, 2014





[/ATTACHMENT]


----------



## slippin

Hi Thunderjosh,

On my setup the fan runs constant until desired temperature, I haven't played around with any of the PID functions. (I don't really think I need to)

The temp usually overshoots by 30ish degrees, however after 15-20min the temp comes down.

I don't cook in any competitions, so this isn't really a problem for me.

(I'm sorry if this doesn't help, most of this stuff is over my head.)

Good luck, and nice smoker!


----------



## corkboard

Hi everyone,

  I'm doing some research on PIDs to create a small smoker unit (I also plan to double it control an old rice cooker for sous-vide).  At this moment, I only intend to control one heating element at a time - I currently don't have an immediate need to control 2 heating elements.  My dilemma is which model to purchase.  The price difference is minor ($10-$30), but I don't want this project to balloon in costs. 

  I would like to understand the differences between the different MYPIN models, and whether a TA4-SNR/SSR would be good enough. What criteria would make the TA7 more logical?

  













MYPIN_TA4_TA7.jpg



__ corkboard
__ Apr 9, 2014






TA4 vs TA7

- What is the different between these two models other than size?  The MYPIN manual for wiring show slight differences between the two

- The TA7 wiring explicitly states "Relay" - does this mean there is a built in relay, or it must still be connected to an external relay? Assumption is that an external SSR is required for high current applications

SNR, RNR, SSR

- "S" indicates they output must be connected to a Solid State Relay, correct?

- "N" indicates none - unused?

- "R" indicates Relay (basic)

No matter which model I choose, is it recommended to have at least 1 "S" output and must have an external SSR?  Would a TA4-SSR future proof the use of controlling 2 heating elements?

Appreciate the help!


----------



## awitte58

From what I gather these are controllers that already have the programming built in and all you do is set it up to do an action at whatever setting you set?

Does anyone have experience using Arduino boards to read parameters and link them with a Raspberry Pi to control motors/actuators? Obviously for the price you are talking it is cheaper to go this route, but I have access to a lot of boards such as what I listed and would like to throw together some automatic regulating smoker. 

I also hope to create an app that allows the Arduino boards to notify my phone if temps(of the cook area or firebox) get below a certain number and allow me to change the set temp of the cooking area. 

Great info tho! Much appreciated!


----------



## dward51

Hello to all......

I have not forgotten about this thread nor have I abandoned it.  I was offline for about a month when my motherboard died and I was traveling for work and just did not have time to reconstruct my PC.  Long story made short is the power supply fried, overvoltage arced through the MB and there was a hard crash that also killed my boot drive.  Now that the PC is rebuilt and all my data transferred over, I should be catching back up on my SMF reading this weekend (that's the plan).

A couple of you have sent me PM's during the time I was down. I think I have now answered them all, but if I missed one, please resend it.

Thanks


----------



## azbohunter

dward51,

Sorry to hear of your computer problems, when they work they are great and when they crash, well I don't even want to think of that!

I am one of those who contacted you after reading thread after thread on PID's. It was a bit intimidating for me at first (the build) but I am exceptionally pleased with the final product.

There is going to be a learning curve, I am well aware of that but so was the computer, and we all seem to have overcome that!

Any way, just wanted to say thanks for your help via PM's from this forum. Guys like you make life more fun for guys like me!

Dick


----------



## dward51

Thunderjosh said:


> How low does your temp get before the fan turns on? At bbq comp I run 225 degrees, I fired my smoker with outside temp of 40 degrees and the fan runs constant till 221 degrees. Then pulses till 225 and shuts off. After it shuts off I hit temps 30-40 degrees over because it stoked the fire so long. I run 20 lbs of lump on start up. If I get it to start pulsing before the destination it may not over shoot as bad. I have a huge back woods clone that I just finished and trying to get tuned. And will the auto tune function work for me. I don't understand how it works.. Thanks Josh





Slippin said:


> Hi Thunderjosh,
> 
> On my setup the fan runs constant until desired temperature, I haven't played around with any of the PID functions. (I don't really think I need to)
> 
> The temp usually overshoots by 30ish degrees, however after 15-20min the temp comes down.
> 
> I don't cook in any competitions, so this isn't really a problem for me.
> 
> (I'm sorry if this doesn't help, most of this stuff is over my head.)
> 
> Good luck, and nice smoker!


Nice pit!   As to the overshoot, yes I would expect that.  Generally PID's are used to control electric elements which are instantly "off" when the SSR switches off (or starts to pulse the output as you noticed).  Fire in a charcoal/wood coal pit is not as forgiving.  I would try the autotune function and let it adjust the pit.  Might want to run without meat on the autotune session, but I would go with the normal load of fuel (both type and quantity) that you would use in a competition.   If the autotune can't quite figure out the slope of the way a fire in a pit responds to air flow, then you may need to tweak the settings for the P, the I, or the D (as in PID).  These are all adjustable in a MYPIN or Auber Instruments PID.  Like I said, in most builds, it's not necessary but we are dealing with a fire pit not a heating element.

I've never had to fiddle with the P, I, or D setting so you will be somewhat in uncharted waters, but I understand the principals involved.  Here is a basic chart of how the values and changes in them would interact on the process being controlled.  (but try the autotune first)

*Parameter**Rise time**Overshoot**Settling time**Steady-state error**Stability*




DecreaseIncreaseSmall changeDecreaseDegrade




DecreaseIncreaseIncreaseEliminateDegrade




Minor changeDecreaseDecreaseNo effect in theoryImprove if 
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
 small



azbohunter said:


> dward51,
> 
> Sorry to hear of your computer problems, when they work they are great and when they crash, well I don't even want to think of that!
> 
> I am one of those who contacted you after reading thread after thread on PID's. It was a bit intimidating for me at first (the build) but I am exceptionally pleased with the final product.
> 
> There is going to be a learning curve, I am well aware of that but so was the computer, and we all seem to have overcome that!
> 
> Any way, just wanted to say thanks for your help via PM's from this forum. Guys like you make life more fun for guys like me!
> 
> Dick


Glad it's working. 

Thanks for the good words.  I'm not "the" expert, but I try to help where I can.....


----------



## dward51

*Some additional info on SSR's in general, and how to select the correct model for DC Fans in a "power draft" on a smoker*

There seems to be some confusion about SSR's and what device is needed for what application.  I'm going to take a stab at some basic info here that hopefully will help.

A SSR is a "Solid State Relay".  This is nothing more than a solid state (think transistor and/or computer chips) device that serves the same function as a mechanical relay.  That is, it switches a power to a load on or off. It does the same job as the good old mechanical or "dry contact" relay which is nothing more than a switch that is actuated by the application or removal of a control voltage.

The confusion seems to be when we start to talk about "triggering voltages" and "load voltages".

In most electric smokers, what you have is a PID that uses a SSR to switch a 110v or 220v heating element on and off based on the process temperature (pit temperature).  The confusion starts when you consider the PID outputs a DC triggering voltage to control a AC load voltage.  The low voltage and low amperage output of the PID does not power the load (heating element).  It only causes the SSR to change it's load side state.  An DC to AC SSR requires AC power on the load side of the device to work.  It's not like a DC mechanical relay that will click on and off with nothing connected on the load side of the mechanical relay.  SSR's require power on the load side to work.

SSR's have an advantage over mechanical relays as there are no moving parts, and no arcing across contacts.  If you have ever had a relay seize up in you car or home AC unit you know what I'm talking about.  In a mechanical relay, as the little contacts approach each other to close the "switch" in the relay, there is always some arcing between the contacts.  This will eventually cause the relay to fail.  The more you switch it on and off, the faster it will fail.  SSR's do not have this problem and are considered to be more reliable that mechanical relays.

The most common type of SSR we see is the DC to AC (DC triggering voltage from a PID controls an AC load voltage from an AC power source to the heating element or other AC load).  The Fotek 25amp models you see used in so many builds are of this type. 

However they also make DC to DC SSR's.  These models also use a DC triggering signal but they control (switch on/off) a DC load from a DC power source.  Some of you have been talking about building "power draft" control units where a PID is used to switch a fan on and off like the BBQ Guru units.  Since most of the small fans used in that application are DC powered, you need to have a DC to DC SSR.

In the photo below, the SSR on the left is a DC to DC SSR.  This device would use the DC triggering output from a PID to switch a 5 to 60v DC load powered by an external DC power supply (not the PID).
The SSR on the right is also a DC to DC SSR, but it has a higher voltage range for the DC load that is being switched.  This one will work with a load side DC power supply of 24 to 220v DC (again from an external DC power supply, and not the PID).
In the Fotek models, the "DD" after the amperage rating (in this case 25 amps for both SSR's) signifies this is a DC to DC SSR.  The DC to AC models would show "DA" instead of "DD".













DC & AC SSR.jpg



__ dward51
__ May 5, 2014






Here is the most common model we see in smoker builds.  It is a 25 amp, DC to AC SSR (DC triggering voltage from the PID which switches an AC load powered by an external AC power supply).













ko-ssr-25da_lg.jpg



__ dward51
__ May 5, 2014






Hope this clears up the difference in load types and what type of SSR to use to make a power draft fan controller for a smoker.  (Note I have also see these exact same Fotek SSR's labeled as MYPIN SSR's, and these two seem to be the most common brands used by smoker controller builders).


----------



## dcarch

A very good explanation of SSRs v.s. mechanical relays.

I would like to add a couple of important considerations:

When a mechanical relay fails, the contacts open the electric circuit, no power goes thru. OTOH, when a SSR fails, it shorts the power and it does not shut off.

Imagine a 1000 watt heater goes on full time and cannot be shut off by the PID. 

Make sure you consider this unlikely situation, which can be dangerous.

SSR can be heat sensitive. If it gets very warm when it is on, then you need to have it on a heat sink.

dcarch


----------



## ruralearl

Hello dward51,  Thank you for this thread & information contained.  Considering making a draft control vs. Auberin unit.  Would have gotten the wrong ssr (da instead of dd).

Question:  the fan under consideration is rated at .3a @ 12vdc & the likely pid relay function is rated at 3a @ 250 vac; the instructions (www.globalbuyersstore.com/manual/tm7100r12v.pdf) state that using a ssr will make the controller last longer.  Is this something to be concerned about in this application?  Thank you,  Earl


----------



## skys

Hi,

I am using the same MYPIN PID, and need to send 110v to my SSR to switch it, it is a heavy duty 220V SSR controlling an oven.  I cant seem to get 110v to come out of terminal 3&4.  can anyone help?


----------



## tim scott

I got my TA4 PID wired up and it seems that the SSR output stays energized no matter what the led does on the front, I'm thinking I got a bad TA4 any suggestions


----------



## controlguy

Doesn't work that way.... 3&4 only output a low voltage DC signal.


----------



## controlguy

Has anyone had any issues with the controller not reading temperature accurately over a range?  I have two of these controllers that I'm trying out and both have issues with accuracy on temperature.  Even after entering an offset, they still both drift off after heating up.  Not just a few degrees... Like 15-20 degrees off.  I build control systems for a living and have really never ran into an issue like this unless the controller or thermocouple is bad... Having two showing the same issues doesn't seem like just a one-off bad unit.   Since you guys seem to be the only folks discussing this controller on the net, I thought I would reach out and see if this is a common issue with this specific manufacturer.


----------



## dward51

Tim,

The PID only outputs a control signal and does not power a load.  You need a power supply feeding power to a SSR or relay (depends on what variation of the TA4 you have as to which).  The SSR or relay acts as a switch that is controlled by the PID (ie, flipped on or off).  The power supply through that "switch" is what powers your fan, heating element, or whatever else you have.

***Also if you have a SSR output PID and you connect a VOM across the load side terminals of a SSR with no load side voltage on the SSR, you will not see the SSR "close" the circuit when the PID triggers it.  It needs a load of some sort and voltage for the SSR to function.  This creates a feedback loop inside the SSR which is needed to make it work.  So don't panic if you have a SSR that does not seem to be working if all you have connected is a meter looking for continuity on the load side of the SSR.  If the LED on the SSR is coming on, try connecting voltage and a small load to the output side and it should work just fine (a small 120v lamp usually works for a PID & SSR that will be controlling a heating element).

In theory the SSR does the work of a plain old relay, but in actuality there is more to the equation to make the digital circuits inside the SSR work (it needs voltage and a small load to form the feedback loop).

Here is a diagram I made for another discussion with a forum member to help illustrate how the SSR works.  In his build, he controlled a outlet, but you can change that out for a heating element or other 110v load.  The key thing to remember is no power from the PID crosses over to the load side of a SSR at any time (the PID does not power the load).  There is no true "switch" inside a SSR as it's all digital logic circuits and no mechanical switch.  The concept of how the output side of the SSR performs is best illustrated by a "switch" though.













PID image 7.jpg



__ dward51
__ Apr 6, 2013


----------



## dward51

Controlguy said:


> Has anyone had any issues with the controller not reading temperature accurately over a range? I have two of these controllers that I'm trying out and both have issues with accuracy on temperature. Even after entering an offset, they still both drift off after heating up. Not just a few degrees... Like 15-20 degrees off. I build control systems for a living and have really never ran into an issue like this unless the controller or thermocouple is bad... Having two showing the same issues doesn't seem like just a one-off bad unit. Since you guys seem to be the only folks discussing this controller on the net, I thought I would reach out and see if this is a common issue with this specific manufacturer.


Try and run another autotune cycle from a cold pit.  The calculated "PID" formula may be off a little or the overall conditions may have changed (autotune run in winter where it was harder to hit target temp might cause it to overshoot in summer if the pit is not highly insulated is one case I can think of.  Another example would be autotuning for one temp and then changing to another setpoint temp later and expecting the same performance, you need to autotune for each desired setpoint if you are changing the temp more than a few degrees).

I would step through the current settings and write them down.  Then try a autotune from a cold pit and write those settings down.  They try another autotune from the hot pit and again write them down.  I suspect the happy medium can be found.   **IMPORTANT** make sure you program in the desired setpoint before starting each autotune. 

If you want to try and fiddle with the settings manually, here is flow chart to give you some directions on what to change.  Kd is the "D" value, Ki is the "I" value, and Kp is the "P" value.   P can be described as the present error, I would be the average of past errors, and D is system prediction of future errors based on prior performance.













overshoot_flowchart.gif



__ dward51
__ Jun 29, 2014






If you are making manual changes, only change one value at a time and see how the change affects the system performance.  Make sure to give the system time to settle down before making a decision to make another change.  I would double or halve the value being changed as small changes have small effects.

Here is another chart that may be of help, but in the end it is sort of trial and error to manually tune a PID.

*Parameter Increased**Rise Time**Overshoot**Settling Time**Steady-State Error**Stability**K[sub]p[/sub]*DecreaseIncreaseSmall ChangeDecreaseDegrade*K[sub]i[/sub]*DecreaseIncreaseIncreaseDecrease SignificantlyDegrade*K[sub]d[/sub]*Minor DecreaseMinor DecreaseMinor DecreaseNo EffectImprove (for small K[sub]d[/sub])


----------



## controlguy

dward51 said:


> Try and run another autotune cycle from a cold pit.  The calculated "PID" formula may be off a little or the overall conditions may have changed (autotune run in winter where it was harder to hit target temp might cause it to overshoot in summer if the pit is not highly insulated is one case I can think of).


Thanks for the comment.  No, not an autotune problem.  Just tried these out on the bench a few days ago using the standard ice bath/boiling water calibration method.  After setting the offsets for temp calibration, I installed both controllers on separate heated water systems, ramped the systems up to temperature, and then rechecked the actual temperature of the bath with a separate temperature reader... both controllers read much higher than the actual bath temperature.  Very odd, but I suppose it could be a wiring issue as some of the previous posts suggested that the wiring diagrams could be off vs. reality.  I'll let you guys know what I find out on Monday... maybe this well help some other folks experiencing the same issues with this controller.


----------



## dward51

Sounds like oscillation in the process.  Try decreasing the derivative value (D).


----------



## tim scott

I just want the parameter settings from the mypid, all I'm doing is turning on a fan when its cold, and off when its up to temp. the wiring is fine. my TA4 and SSR is only running a fan, (if it ever works). I have a second controller on the way, just in case I'm not crazy and the PID output that is supplying 30VDC no matter what the output led says is malfunctioning.


----------



## tim scott

ok it was a bad mypid now its working but I want to have it turn on the fan whenever it drops below temp right now if it gets close dropping below temp the fan starts pulsing and over shoots the temp so I want my drift to be between 225- 230 so 225 fans on 230 fans off


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## hugh131

I am amazed by the amount of electronics/computer knowledge on this form. I am hoping that someone can help me or confirm my diagnosis or fix my new TA4 SNR.I suspect that the TA 4 is bad.

I have the TA4 wired to a SSR 25DD 25 amp. As soon as I energise the TA4 the SSR turns on. If SV is less than PV the controal voltage to the SSR is 3.3 volts. If SV is greater than PV the internal relay in TA4 clicks but the control voltage is the same. The Output Mode is set for 001=SSR.

Alarm one also does not work except for the internal TA4 led. Time for the big hammer???:wife:

I hope I don't have a sick one but I think so.


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## dward51

Should not be an audible "click" with an SSR output.  What is your MYPIN TA4 configuration number (model number).  Post the full info and I'll try and decode it. 

Should be something like TA4x-Sxxxx  (if it's not "S" for the first character after the dash that may be the problem).  That is hardwired into the unit and just changing the code to "001" for CTL type does not mean it will work.  It all depends on what variation of a TA4 you have.

Here are the configuration codes (click to enlarge)













MYPIN TA4 model info.jpg



__ dward51
__ Sep 29, 2014


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## hugh131

My unit is a TA4-SNR. The relay click turned out to be the alarm which also does not have a signal out.

 I Have been in communication with MyPin China by Skype, email and messaging. They had me do numerous tests on the unit. One of the things they wanted was the open circuit voltage from pins three and four without the SSR  connected. I showed them that with output one light on the voltage read 23.64 volts which they said was normal. When I gave them the results for output one light off which was 23.72 volts I don't think they believed me. On Skype they mistook the alarm LED for the output one LED and this was the cause for their  confusion.

I emailed them pictures of the test that clearly showed the LEDs on and off and also had the voltmeter in the picture. They quickly replied and confirmed  my diagnosis that the unit was bad.

The Skype experience  was fun trying to understand the girls English with a technician that was speaking louder in Chinese.

Thanks for your reply and perhaps this post will help someone else.


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## buffalo47

Is there any way to make the TA4 run on 220? I have not read all these threads as yet, but am hoping to find an answer to this. Thanks for all the info you have posted. It does help a lot.

buffalo47


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## buffalo47

Sorry, I meant TD4, not TA4.


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## hugh131

If you look at the specs on eBay they call for power supply of 90 to 260 volts AC or DC. So should work.


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## benngunn

I don't know what I'm doing


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## augiedoggy

DeerDuckSmoker said:


> I would not recommend this unit. I will likely be returning mine. It is reading 16 degrees too cold and there is not way to add to the offset, only to subtract. They admitted it's a bug in the software that they forgot to add addition functionality.


I have been using ta4 ta7 and td4's for years in the homebrewing world and I dont know where you heard that there is no place to adjust for the temp probe being off but their is. (whos they? you called the manufactuer in china?)  You can add and subtract although if your probe is off by that much then either it is defective or you didnt set the probe type to match the correct probe type that your using... there are rtd (pt100) and various thermoucouples like the "J' type out there.. if you never selected the right one your settings would be off...

These pids work very well actually and are capable of a shorter cycle time than the units from auber (which are also made in china BTW)

you can also buy the standard auber units direct from china for $30 shipped... they are often sold as the XMT-612 unit...


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## augiedoggy

buffalo47 said:


> Sorry, I meant TD4, not TA4.


td4 and ta4 are indentical except for 2 things... the terminal layout on the back is moved around and the td4 has a manual pwm mode and the ta series does not... they also come in dual alarm mode or single or for driving mecanicall relays or ssrs... the dual alarm is niice because you can set a high and low temp threshold were the alarm will go off if somethings wrong.

and yes the mypins actually run on 24v dc so they have a built in powersupply which takes any ac power between 90-260 and automatically converts it....


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## augiedoggy

Hugh131 said:


> I am amazed by the amount of electronics/computer knowledge on this form. I am hoping that someone can help me or confirm my diagnosis or fix my new TA4 SNR.I suspect that the TA 4 is bad.
> 
> I have the TA4 wired to a SSR 25DD 25 amp. As soon as I energise the TA4 the SSR turns on. If SV is less than PV the controal voltage to the SSR is 3.3 volts. If SV is greater than PV the internal relay in TA4 clicks but the control voltage is the same. The Output Mode is set for 001=SSR.
> 
> Alarm one also does not work except for the internal TA4 led. Time for the big hammer???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I don't have a sick one but I think so.


you have to have a load on the ssr or it wont swithc correctly... most use a lightbulb to test but hopefully your ssr draws enough amps for the ssr to work... although you should get more than 3.3 v to the ssr... more like 24v when turning it on..

and you did wire the alarm correctly to the pid right? remember the alarm function is just a switch... you have to feed the power "in" and "out" to your separate alarm for it to work...


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## augiedoggy

dward51 said:


> Tim,
> 
> The PID only outputs a control signal and does not power a load.  You need a power supply feeding power to a SSR or relay (depends on what variation of the TA4 you have as to which).  The SSR or relay acts as a switch that is controlled by the PID (ie, flipped on or off).  The power supply through that "switch" is what powers your fan, heating element, or whatever else you have.
> 
> ***Also if you have a SSR output PID and you connect a VOM across the load side terminals of a SSR with no load side voltage on the SSR, you will not see the SSR "close" the circuit when the PID triggers it.  It needs a load of some sort and voltage for the SSR to function.  This creates a feedback loop inside the SSR which is needed to make it work.  So don't panic if you have a SSR that does not seem to be working if all you have connected is a meter looking for continuity on the load side of the SSR.  If the LED on the SSR is coming on, try connecting voltage and a small load to the output side and it should work just fine (a small 120v lamp usually works for a PID & SSR that will be controlling a heating element).
> 
> In theory the SSR does the work of a plain old relay, but in actuality there is more to the equation to make the digital circuits inside the SSR work (it needs voltage and a small load to form the feedback loop).
> 
> Here is a diagram I made for another discussion with a forum member to help illustrate how the SSR works.  In his build, he controlled a outlet, but you can change that out for a heating element or other 110v load.  The key thing to remember is no power from the PID crosses over to the load side of a SSR at any time (the PID does not power the load).  There is no true "switch" inside a SSR as it's all digital logic circuits and no mechanical switch.  The concept of how the output side of the SSR performs is best illustrated by a "switch" though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PID image 7.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> __ dward51
> __ Apr 6, 2013


if I had a nickel for every time someone wired them up wrong and then blamed it on the "{cheap chinese pid or ssrs )"I would be rich by now.


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## dward51

augiedoggy said:


> if I had a nickel for every time someone wired them up wrong and then blamed it on the "{cheap chinese pid or ssrs )"I would be rich by now.


And to complicate matters even more there are PID's with dry contacts and other triggering circuit output that are not compatible with DC SSR's.  The companies usually make the different models and puts them in the same PID body. If you set them side by side they all look the same.  It depends on the factory internal configuration, which is why the full model number and the key to decode the specifications is important.

I have one Omega PID that triggers a mercury wetted relay to control a 10,800 watt heater bank in a commercial textile dryer for screen printing.  That one outputs 110vac as the triggering signal to the relay which then switches the substantial 220v load.   And yes, running that sucker will make your power meter spin real fast (roughly 50 amp draw at 220v when fully on).

Yeah, I know mercury wetted relay is old school - I will change it to a SSR if it ever dies, but it will also mean changing out the PID and adding a significant heat sink.  It ain't broke, so I ain't fixing it.


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## augiedoggy

dward51 said:


> And to complicate matters even more there are PID's with dry contacts and other triggering circuit output that are not compatible with DC SSR's.  The companies usually make the different models and puts them in the same PID body. If you set them side by side they all look the same.  It depends on the factory internal configuration, which is why the full model number and the key to decode the specifications is important.
> 
> I have one Omega PID that triggers a mercury wetted relay to control a 10,800 watt heater bank in a commercial textile dryer for screen printing.  That one outputs 110vac as the triggering signal to the relay which then switches the substantial 220v load.   And yes, running that sucker will make your power meter spin real fast (roughly 50 amp draw at 220v when fully on).
> 
> Yeah, I know mercury wetted relay is old school - I will change it to a SSR if it ever dies, but it will also mean changing out the PID and adding a significant heat sink.  It ain't broke, so I ain't fixing it.


Yes even these mypins come in mechanical relay form as well as ssr models. The cheap ebay/amazon sold "rexC100 pids are often misrepresented as ssr pids .. Some sre but I here of many being sold the wrong type and having to mod them by removing the relay.

I actually service large wide format flatbed uv printers and newpaper CTP machines with pids and ssrs so I've been around them a while but it wasnt until I built my electric brewery that I really started paying attention to how they work.


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## farmfriendly

I love the Mypin devices. I find most contain sayno parts. Several builds I have used the Mypin ta4, and just finished one with a ta6. I simply turn off the P and give it a ctl command for lenth of relay hold time and let it auto tun after box is up to temp. The devices that serve a purpose well.


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## anxromatrix

I need some help I have a  mypin t4a . I want to know if the schematic given to me is accurate. I think I may of blew my ssr.













20150717_172515.jpg



__ anxromatrix
__ Jul 20, 2015


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## anxromatrix

I need help with mypin pid controller here. I need to know if this schematic is good and will work with hot plate. Dyer needs of starting my smoker. Thanks













20150717_172515.jpg



__ anxromatrix
__ Jul 20, 2015


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## jabbey71

On the Mypin TA4 Pid controller, I know that the 110 power is going to connect to the number 1 and 2 terminal.  Which terminal will be the Hot (Black Wire) number 1 or 2.  I'm not going to use a ssr on this build.  And also my thermocouple has the red and blue connector on it.  Is the red going to be the positive. Will my thermocoupler be connected to number 7 and 8 sinces I have only 2 connectors or will they be connected different numbered connectors.. I'm not familiar with these type builds so bare with me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.


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## oblsss

First of all, I Want to say hello to all the members of this community. I am an electrician and I am trying to help a friend make a DIY sous vide for cooking meat. Both of us are huge "meat lovers" so we kind of related to your community. Thumbs Up 

So my friend purchased a mYpin T4A, a pt100 temperature sensor and a " made in China" ssr da relay from the Internet. I made the connections and we tried to boil some water in order to see how this set works. Turned out the relay was malfunctional, as it had a permanently closed contact. I replaced it with an electromechanical relay, 24 V coil - NO contact rated at 250 V, and it worked. 

My first problem is that while this set is on auto tune mode it works perfectly, with temperature ranging from 79 to 81.5 degrees for a set value of 80. As soon as the auto tune led is off it starts acting really sensitive, opening and closing the contact in a continuous and fast rate. This will eventually burn the electromechanical relay and probably even an ssr relay. 

I pressed the auto tune button for the second time and the closing-opening procedure returned to normal, until the auto tune led went off again. At that point the contact started acting crazy again. I checked the pid values and they are greatly changed compared to the factory settings. 

Second problem is whether the electromechanical relay is suitable for this operation. Any previous experience will be greatly appreciated. 

Thans in advance for any suggestions, previous experiences or whatever. 

George


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## dward51

Guess I need to re-visit this thread more often.

You are seeing how a PID works.  It makes a lot of small adjustments (on/off cycles) to closely regulate the process temp.  That is why SSR's are the much preferred device for use in a PID setup.  You are correct that the constant cycling of a electro-mechanical relay will wear it out. SSR's have no moving parts and do not suffer that problem.  The main issue with a SSR is dissipation of heat through proper heat sinking at the point of installation along with good ventilation.

SSR's don't really have "contacts".  How did you determine it was permanently closed?  You cannot use a ohm meter to check for continuity on a SSR like you would a mechanical relay.  There must be an electrical load on the output side for the SSR to function.  I've seen builders try to hook the SSR up to a PID giving a control signal and then try to check continuity on the output terminals.  That will not work.

To test a SSR, you need a proper triggering voltage (usually low voltage DC) to the input side of the SSR, while also having a load on the output (or switched) side of the SSR. When you remove the triggering voltage (can be from a battery), the little red LED on the SSR body should go out, and the load side power should be cut. The key is there must be a proper AC voltage to a load on the output side for the SSR to work at all.

Also Look at the TA4 manual at this link.  I would verify the values are set in your unit for how the cabinet and components are configured.  One value out of line with what you have will give poor results.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/attachments/864


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## milo

What kind of box do you stuff this controller and the ssr into I went to home depot today and just did not see what I thought was the "right" box any help here would be much appreciated.


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## lc clower

I have the identical problem.  MYPIN PID turns relay on but not off, it continues to send current to the SSR after the target temperature is reached.

Anyone?


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## rocket

Hi folks I'm new here & don't wanta step on toes, but I think by dipping mine in here I can maybe help. I got here from searching on these MYPIN PID Controllers. I just bought a x2 pair of MYPIN Temp & Time Controllers for a convection & pizza oven build. There seems to be a scarcity of info & much of it contradictory. 
Now I died a few times in the last few years & squeaked thru with some extra brain damage. But my last job was as a controls technician for a decade or so.

Proportional Integral Derivative  Controllers use algorithms to tune a control process. P is for the current error or difference between the current value & the setpoint. I is a compiled (not sum of) history of past errors & D is a forecast of the future error.
Each of these elements have several values that can be tweaked to weight the value of that process element.
Now I don't have one of these in my hands yet but at least the primary weighted value for P I & D should be user adjustable or the device would be useless as a PID Controller. This is usually accessed on small freestanding devices by holding one or more keys down for several seconds. The flashing number is probably the current general process output but could be the process output for an individual element. If the number is unchanging is is likely one of the elements startup setting value. 
Hope I helped and didn't offend anybody. I'll answer what I can & update when I get my paws on one of the lil buggers.
Rocket


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## arcticcanoe

Hi guys.
I know this is an old thread, but unless I missed it in here. I want to build a 12volt PID hooked to a 12 volt fan for my UDS. The Mypin and the XTM612 both come in 12 volt. My question is do I need a SSR to switch the fan or do they have an adequate internal relay.


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## VCACC

Hello all, I am currently using a Mypin controller to control a curing chamber, and I have a desire to change the rate at which the controller switches the relay. That is, I do not what the relay to be switched too quickly when the PV becomes close to the SV. Is there a way to change that rate with the Mypin controller software? Based on the Mypin manual, I would assume this is controlled using the "Control Cycle Time" which is one of the parameter settings. According to instructions provided with this forum, this setting is referred to as "Control Type" and "Should not be changed" but the function of the setting is not described and there is no reason given as to why it should not be changed. Thanks in advance.


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## dward51

VCACC said:


> Hello all, I am currently using a Mypin controller to control a curing chamber, and I have a desire to change the rate at which the controller switches the relay. That is, I do not what the relay to be switched too quickly when the PV becomes close to the SV. Is there a way to change that rate with the Mypin controller software? Based on the Mypin manual, I would assume this is controlled using the "Control Cycle Time" which is one of the parameter settings. According to instructions provided with this forum, this setting is referred to as "Control Type" and "Should not be changed" but the function of the setting is not described and there is no reason given as to why it should not be changed. Thanks in advance.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "do not want the relay to be switched too quickly when the PV becomes close to the SV".

I think what you are wanting to call "control cycle time" is the CONTROL HYSTERESIS function which shows as "HYS" in the setup menu.  The value is 1.00 by default but can be varied +/- 100. 

I'm just not clear on what it is you are really trying to do.


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