# Doing this one thing while making sausages can KILL you, please STOP! "2 guys and a cooler"



## daveomak (Aug 13, 2022)

Cajuneric


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## DougE (Aug 13, 2022)

I watched that right this afternoon right after doing a test fry on some summer sausage batter lol. It's all good though, it had sodium erythorbate in it.


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## sawhorseray (Aug 13, 2022)

Excellent post Dave! I don't smoke much of the sausage I make anymore, grown to just prefer fresh and then grilled. Another thing to take note of when using nitrite or nitrate, wear some nitrile gloves! RAY


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## SecondHandSmoker (Aug 14, 2022)

Good info.


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Chef jimmyj had some great advice when this topic came up couple years ago....just drink some orange juice after tasting the sausage. This will have enough citric acid in it to neutralize any nitrates and nitrites.


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## DRKsmoking (Aug 14, 2022)

Great Dave , thanks for posting this. I watched as I am about to make some sausages in a day or so.

So I have a question to anyone please . He said that I can counteract the Cure#1 in my mix with ascorbic acid. That is great but how do I figure out the amount. Is there a rule of thumb  say

example
1 gram of cure#1 = ? of ascorbic acid , and would this not change the flavor much to the sausage

Thanks in advance

David


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Here ya go:


> A common ingredient used in sausage making and meat curing for accelerating the breakdown of sodium nitrite allowing you to smoke cured meats immediately after stuffing. It also acts as an anti-oxidant which prevents discoloration/pigmentation of meats treated with Cure. The latter is important for those using high-temp cheese in cured sausage, Erythorbate will act as a color stabilizer and prevent the meat directly in contact with the cheese from turning odd colors via oxidation (when this occurs it is not spoilage) and give it an even consistent appearance.  *When used in sausage, add 1 ounce per 100 pounds of meat or 0.1 oz (1 Teaspoon) per 10 lbs.*Packaged Item Demensions: 2.5″ L, 2.5″ W, 7″ HUnit Weight: 1 lb.


https://www.sausagemaker.com/product/sodium-erythorbate-1-2-lb/


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## boykjo (Aug 14, 2022)

IMO just another fishing video.... unless your taste test is 5 lbs. 
My 2 cents


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

boykjo said:


> IMO just another fishing video.... unless your taste test is 5 lbs.
> My 2 cents


I agree the risks are overblown....nobody freaks out about eating spinach or celery....yet a serving of either raw has more nitrate that a serving of sausage! And everyone has nitrite in their saliva!


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> I agree the risks are overblown....nobody freaks out about eating spinach or celery....yet a serving of either raw has more nitrate that a serving of sausage! And everyone has nitrite in their saliva!


Hey Keith.  It's an interesting rabbit hole (in case you are curious) the difference between vegetable nitrites and nitrites that are molecularly bound to sodium.  The moment you bond nitrite to sodium chloride it reacts differently in the body.  Food for thought


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

boykjo said:


> IMO just another fishing video.... unless your taste test is 5 lbs.
> My 2 cents


So, out of curiosity are you promoting the eating of unconverted nitrites?


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Cajuneric said:


> Hey Keith.  It's an interesting rabbit hole (in case you are curious) the difference between vegetable nitrites and nitrites that are molecularly bound to sodium.  The moment you bond nitrite to sodium chloride it reacts differently in the body.  Food for thought


I'll admit that I did not know this...I would be interested in the research done on this. Always more to learn in this hobby!! Thanks for posting!


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

So, exploring this further...

Here is a very detailed article on the subject from Dr. Greg Blonder Ph.D. in Physics.

http://gastrochemist.com/nitrates/

excerpt:


> _“The amount of nitrate in some vegetables can be very high.   Spinach, for example, may contain 500 to 1900 parts per million of sodium nitrate. Less than five percent of daily sodium nitrite intake comes from cured meats. Nearly 93 percent of sodium nitrite comes from leafy vegetables & tubers and our own saliva. Vegetables contain sodium nitrate, which is converted to sodium nitrite when it comes into contact with saliva in the mouth.”_



*note- Dr. Blonder has a very useful cure calculator:
https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> So, exploring this further...
> 
> Here is a very detailed article on the subject from Dr. Greg Blonder Ph.D. in Physics.
> 
> ...


That's the calculator that I use and suggest.  The one thing I don't understand is why he recommends adding 20% to the cure time so that the meat can cure all the way to the center.  As if I prefer the calculator to tell me when my meat is 80% done?  .  I've tried to reach out and ask him but got no reply..


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## jcam222 (Aug 14, 2022)

Cajuneric said:


> Hey Keith.  It's an interesting rabbit hole (in case you are curious) the difference between vegetable nitrites and nitrites that are molecularly bound to sodium.  The moment you bond nitrite to sodium chloride it reacts differently in the body.  Food for thought


Good info. I have often wondered why celery based cure is preferred by some. I believe for some they can tolerate it while not the Cure 1 when it’s used. 

 smokin peachey
  I believe uses the celery type cure for this reason for his wife.


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## LanceR (Aug 14, 2022)

Hmm....  Unless your taste testing multiple batches of cured sausage daily this would seem to be a great example of pole vaulting over a mouse turd.

Lance


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

LanceR said:


> Hmm....  Unless your taste testing multiple batches of cured sausage daily this would seem to be a great example of pole vaulting over a mouse turd.
> 
> Lance


Consider this.  A sausage maker eating unconverted nitrites the entirety of their life in only small doses.  Using your analogy, I would personally find it more comforting knowing that I was pole vaulting over a mouse turd, than end up with colon cancer.  I think it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Cajuneric said:


> That's the calculator that I use and suggest.  The one thing I don't understand is why he recommends adding 20% to the cure time so that the meat can cure all the way to the center.  As if I prefer the calculator to tell me when my meat is 80% done?  .  I've tried to reach out and ask him but got no reply..


From my understanding, the cure will reach the center in the alloted time, but the concentration gradient is not even...there is less in the center than where initially applied on the outside. The extra time allows for better equalization.

Edit to add: cylindrical cuts may cure more evenly than thick flat pieces


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## boykjo (Aug 14, 2022)

We understand the warnings and don't promote eating unconverted nitrites. Everything should be taken into consideration and common sense should be applied. Smoked and processed meats have been found to cause cancer so should we all relinquish our smokers and stop processing meats. Lets not be eristic and let common sense endure.


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## DougE (Aug 14, 2022)

LanceR said:


> Hmm....  Unless your taste testing multiple batches of cured sausage daily this would seem to be a great example of pole vaulting over a mouse turd.
> 
> Lance


Perhaps, but is it that big a deal to play it safe and add the cure after getting all the spices adjusted if not using a cure accelerator? This was one of those things I never really gave much thought to until I watched the video.


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Cajuneric
,

I have the upmost respect for you and the information you put out. Thanks to you for getting me going when I first dove into the world of salumi and salami 4 years ago. All the stuff you put out is very well researched. What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? Chemically, the sodium nitrates in plants is no different than the synthetic version we use in curing meats. My point being that people don't give a thought to it when eating a raw celery sticks...and the concentration would be higher than that found when making cured meats.

Great, frank, open discussion....good stuff.....


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## daveomak (Aug 14, 2022)

Did anyone get to the part, in Eric's video, it's about the cancer-causing nitrosamines ???


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Did anyone get to the part, in Eric's video, it's about the cancer-causing nitrosamines ???


Yes...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26633477/


> The potential associations between dietary consumption of nitrates, nitrites, and nitrosamines and gastric cancer risk have been investigated by several studies, but yielded inconclusive results.


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> Cajuneric
> ,
> 
> I have the upmost respect for you and the information you put out. Thanks to you for getting me going when I first dove into the world of salumi and salami 4 years ago. All the stuff you put out is very well researched. What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? Chemically, the sodium nitrates in plants is no different than the synthetic version we use in curing meats. My point being that people don't give a thought to it when eating a raw celery sticks...and the concentration would be higher than that found when making cured meats.
> ...


I agree.  I think this should be talked about more often.  From my research the biggest difference that i've seen is that plants contain antioxidants (cure accelerators) that help with the conversion.


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> Yes...
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26633477/


Here's a fun study.  








						Carcinogenic N-nitrosamines in the diet: occurrence, formation, mechanisms and carcinogenic potential - PubMed
					

Nitrosamines form a large group of genotoxic chemical carcinogens which occur in the human diet and other environmental media, and can be formed endogenously in the human body. N-Nitroso compounds can induce cancer in experimental animals. Some representative compounds of this class induce...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

Good points.... 

I still think it would be un-neccesary to leave the cure out prior to taste sampling if you just drank a glass of orange juice afterwards.


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## Cajuneric (Aug 14, 2022)

boykjo said:


> We understand the warnings and don't promote eating unconverted nitrites. Everything should be taken into consideration and common sense should be applied. Smoked and processed meats have been found to cause cancer so should we all relinquish our smokers and stop processing meats. Lets not be eristic and let common sense endure.


Not trying to be debatable, i was just trying to understand your position a little better.  So you and I are on the same page.  Promoting that it's ok to eat unconverted nitrites would be terrible advice and the reason is that it is potentially very bad for your health..  When you belittled the video as just another "fishing video" I felt as if you were making light of a situation that many people are actually unaware of.


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## zwiller (Aug 14, 2022)

I will hunt for a cite but it was my understanding that your saliva converts the nitrites before even hitting the gut.  That said, I never fry test.  Just not my thing.  I HATE typing sodium erythorbate so I am going on record now that the acronym for it is SE.    Besides for health, I find the use of SE gives a nice boost of color and flavor.  Not a huge amount but noticeable.  Same goes for ascorbic acid (vitamin c) for fresh sausages gives a similar effect.


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## indaswamp (Aug 14, 2022)

zwiller said:


> I will hunt for a cite but it was my understanding that your saliva converts the nitrites before even hitting the gut.


Yep. That is my understanding as well. See the link to Dr. Blonder's site I posted previously.he discussed just this fact.

So note to self-chew well when consuming cured meat products.....or celery...or spinach.....LOL!


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## bill1 (Aug 14, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> Cajuneric
> ,
> 
> ...What I don't understand is why the source of the sodium nitrate would matter? ...


I think raw celery can have sodium nitrate at the 0.1% level, similar (or even a bit over) the health limits put on commercial bacon and sausage.  The difference is there's a lot of us that love to eat meat by the pound while those that eat celery by the pound are few and far between.  

Cured meats need nitrates.  Too much is bad; too little is bad.  But whether you're adding it from celery powder or Prague powder kinda' doesn't matter... just make sure you do the calcs and know exactly what you're doing.  Which was the point of the video.


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## boykjo (Aug 17, 2022)

Cajuneric said:


> Not trying to be debatable, i was just trying to understand your position a little better.  So you and I are on the same page.  Promoting that it's ok to eat unconverted nitrites would be terrible advice and the reason is that it is potentially very bad for your health..  When you belittled the video as just another "fishing video" I felt as if you were making light of a situation that many people are actually unaware of.


My intention wasn't to belittle your video. My point in my first post was your title was fishing trying to exaggerate and catch someone's attention like you see in a video's main clip with a fishing pole bent down into the water.  As you just said here " it is potentially very bad for your health.." would have been a more appropriate choice for a title. My second point was you would have to eat a lot of test samples to actually die. I watch your videos which are very informative and I respect your knowledge which helps a lot of people.

Boykjo
​


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## zwiller (Aug 17, 2022)

Someone needs to tell this stuff to those folks drinking 1lb of celery juiced everyday.


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## daveomak (Aug 18, 2022)

Several folks have missed the point of the video...
Start at 4:30 and listen again...  and again...
It's the formation of nitrosamines in your gut from sodium nitrites/sodium nitrates and amines that form nitrosamines that can/will cause cancer...
if there are words you don't understand, do a search...


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## GaryHibbert (Aug 18, 2022)

Great advice, Dave.  Thanks for the video.
Gary


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## zwiller (Aug 18, 2022)

Here's my take on it...

The salivary glands and bacteria in your mouth convert nitrate/nitrite to nitric oxide (which is actually good for you).  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27872324/ 

THAT BEING SAID, it is my understanding nitrosamine formation is ACTUALLY created by cooking/heat with nitrate/nitrite in the presence of proteins/amino acids so it is likely that the fry test could create nitrosamines, so Eric is still technically on point.  I never fry test so...


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## noboundaries (Aug 18, 2022)

I only use cure #1 and salts in my jerky and sausage. If I could sum his advice in one sentence it would be, "Don't taste test anything until the raw meat has been cured for at least 12-24 hours." Is that accurate?


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## BGKYSmoker (Aug 18, 2022)

I taste the raw meat while making sausage, this way if i need to add.

Guess y'all aint never had Texas Parisa?


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## SmokinEdge (Aug 18, 2022)

I’ve been down this rabbit hole fairly far at one time just for my own knowledge. There are studies that show nitrosamines (from nitrites) can increase cancer risk in lab animals, but nothing conclusive in humans. Sure there are studies that can be found that “link” nitrites and nitrosamines to gastrointestinal cancer in people, but again, none are conclusive.

In my research this all appears to start in the 1970’s with all of the other food scares. We were told then that processed meats such as Spam, Potted meat, lunchen meats, ham, bacon, deviled ham, etc……. Would kill us because of high salt and nitrites.
We were also told that eating beef would raise our cholesterol and kill us, they tried to destroy the beef industry. As a farm kid at the time I remember this being particularly brutal on the beef market.
Then they told us that eggs would kill us because of the cholesterol. This was a time of food wars, industries scrambling for market share. Do a “study “ and put information out to the public that your largest competitor has a product that will eventually kill you seems the typical game plan To promote your own product over others then. Funny how stuff resonates for decades.

The arguments over nitrate/nitrites is moot in my opinion, and here is why.
1) They claim nitrates in vegetables some how doesn’t count because these are “ natural” nitrates, and that nitrate is perfectly harmless. It’s the evil synthetic nitrite that is the problem. Research that for yourself.
2) Pretty much all nitrate/nitrites consumed in the food chain generally comes from farmers and producers applying fertilizer (nitrogen) to the soil. Most all of this nitrogen is man made or synthetic.
3) Almost all nitrogen based fertilizer today are in the same life circle. Even bat guano is produced from bats eating bugs that consume farm fertilizer. And manure from livestock comes from animals eating feed stuff fertilized on farm with the same nitrogen.
4) There really is no chemical or building block difference in curing salt nitrate/nitrite with that in celery, Kahle, spinach or beets. It all comes from the same source.

If we drink beet juice or eat bacon cured with celery powder, we are consuming the exact same nitrates As is in curing salts.

Eating a pinch of raw sausage batter is really no different than eating raw spinach or Kahle, chemically it’s not different. So eat your fruits and green leafy vegetables ladies and gentlemen but pass on sausage. Oh and no beer consumption that’s high in bad nitrates also.


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## TNJAKE (Aug 18, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> Oh and no beer consumption that’s high in bad nitrates also


Well I'm screwed lol


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## indaswamp (Aug 22, 2022)

Great Read!
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/science-science-everywhere/nitrosamines


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## Brokenhandle (Aug 22, 2022)

I'll admit, didn't watch the video. But am a firm believer if you find a study that says one thing, if you look, or wait a few months you will find a study that says the opposite...or, ooopppsss,  we were wrong. Now, each of us need to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs and or research...I  only decide for myself. First hand I heard from my Dr. how what prescriptions are pushed...the ones that come with the most money spent by drug companies.  Secondly,  I grew up on a farm, been in the sun all my life, sunburned who knows how many times. Been around chemicals, although tried to be cautious,  ya always get some on you eventually.  Drink too much, smoked cigarettes for over 30 years of my life. Then there's genetics...dad is 86, retired 2 years ago but still helps with the farming...most people wouldn't put him much over 70. Mom passed 2 years ago, and battled health issues for years. My wife took care of her for the last 3 years before she passed...she was taking 44 prescribed pills each day...think that might cause some issues? And she had been an R.N. all her life and licensed home health care as well worked with hospice before she retired.  So yes she was involved in the medical field all her life, and I seem to be lucky to have inherited more of her health than dad's.  So I rarely put much faith in any study. Move to California...everything in this world causes cancer in that state ( only say that because I believe almost every tool I buy says so). And yes...I did eat dirt as a kid. So take every study with a grain of salt. 

Ryan


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## daveomak (Aug 24, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> Great Read!
> https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/science-science-everywhere/nitrosamines


Inda....  Great find !!!   I've gotta get down to the swamp...  That's where very important stuff goes to hide...
I can't tell you how many times I have done a search using nitrates, nitrites, nitrosamines etc. as a search word and NEVER has that article surfaced...  I 'm guessing because I live in a desert of sorts...  The swamp has magical waters...


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## indaswamp (Aug 24, 2022)

daveomak
 - I use duckduckgo for web search.


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## dr k (Aug 24, 2022)

I've read the dietary nitrates like beets and celery etc need to be oxidized for curing purposes, pureed or air sprayed and dried etc but in whole form the vitamin C antioxidant is the key to keep it from oxidizing so eat away. The beet powder people stir in water as a dietary nitrate may be loaded with added vitamin C. I don't  know but juicing a celery plant will oxidized quickly and start turning from a bright geen to a  browner color very quickly in 15 minutes Also, to fry bacon lower @ 300 over a longer period of time or in the oven over 20 minutes to prevent so much Nitrosamine formation like at high heat.


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## daveomak (Aug 25, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> I use duckduckgo for web search.



Me too...


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## zwiller (Aug 25, 2022)

Me 3...  Picked up cool hacks in the day when the web got going, one being syntax. Look it up.  Cool stuff you can do with a search.  My go to is +
IE: nitrosamine+bacon+cancer
I think that's how I found that cite.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 21, 2022)

Take 2 Celery Stalks, and call me in the Morning!!

Bear


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## BGKYSmoker (Nov 23, 2022)

Sorry I don't buy it.
I been tasting my raw mixed meat for years....I'm still here.


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## okie sawbones (Nov 23, 2022)

Everyone has their boogeyman. Nitrites/nitrates is not one of mine._ 

From Meat Scientist Keith Belk, PhD:_

Some people worry about nitrite and its relationship to diseases such as cancer. A study conducted by the U.S. National Toxicology Program, responsible for discovering whether certain chemicals cause cancer, showed otherwise. After a several year investigation, it was found that sodium nitrite does not belong on the list of substances of carcinogenic substances. 

Instead, sodium nitrites found in cured meats actually have some health benefits. After years of research, National Institutes of Health and University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston scientists have learned the human body needs a certain level of nitrite to regulate the nitrogen cycle. Some possible benefits to incorporating a healthy level of nitrites into one’s diet includes the following: blood pressure regulation, promote wound healing, promote successful organ transplant, treat sickle cell anemia and prevent gastric ulcers.


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## chopsaw (Nov 23, 2022)

Stuffing insulation one day . Asked the Forman for a dust mask . He said " What's the matter kid , you want to live forever ? " 
I told him I'd at least like to make Friday so I could get my check . 

I'm not buying it either .


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