# Calling all sausage makers...Sausage binders. Why we use them and why we dont. Your thoughts and res



## boykjo

I open this discussion to better understand of why some sausage makers use binders and some sausage makers don't. Would like to hear what everyone has to say .

Joe


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## pc farmer

As a newb, I am watching.

:popcorn


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## daveomak

Hey Joe....  I have put Soy Protein Concentrate (SPC) in my fresh breakfast sausage for patties and frying....  Seems to keep the fat from running all over the frying pan and fat is flavor....   Haven't tried it without the SPC...  so it's not a real test...  I have used it in Andouille also...  
I only add 1/2 of the recommended maximum...   I think 3% is the max recommended and I usually add 1 - 1 1/2 %......  At that rate I don't think it screws up the flavor.....

However, adding it depends on the sausage I'm making...   never to Kielbasa.....   Premium, died and gone to heaven, eating sausage doesn't need it...


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## boykjo

I added a poll


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## bombdawgity

Joe,
I'm of no help but I'm very interested in this. I noticed several posts and one specifically lately where this debate arose. I've only done about 100lbs (I know you do that in your sleep on a slow weekend [emoji]128515[/emoji]) but I haven't used any. Like I said, this will be a fun discussion to watch unfold. 
Btw, it's funny that as of now there has been 3 votes and it's one for each, can't help but to giggle. Ask 10 smokers a question and get 15 answers. 
Kyle


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## foamheart

So maybe we should list the reasons one might use a binder like lack of fat, or using a fatty meat  which can also be using another more lean meat in a small % as a binder (Like a 90/10 mix for beef/pork sausage), or numerous chemical type additives to hold the fat or protiens in suspension so a higher smoking temp can be used? Those are a few I have read about, probably a bunch more.

Since I use the roaster now to cook mine which like adding cure everywhere and has been a source of discontent on my part. yes I get a better  end product but I know my Pop and his Dad and his Grandpa didn't do it this way. Which was a large part of what I started curing and nmaking sausages, I see less shrinkage in my sausages. I like the texrure as well as the taste when adding Amespho (a Ames Company Phosphate = AmesPhos). While not needing as much since I have accepted the smokie flavor reducion, to maintain the 'plumpness' of my sausages.

I actually like the wrinklie smoked casing because I think the casing dry and pop better when bitten or cut with the dry casing. I have found what currently I like best in roaster poaching the sausages (lossing some of that aroma) and then allowing to cool themselves vice the ice bath. By filling the casing a tiny bit fuller/tighter I am seeingthe good skin while maintaining the moisture.

I have also in the couple a monthsreduced my smoked sausage grind plate to a medium plate which seems to better facilitate the more complete packing of the casings. The andouille is done with a 3/4" plate and with the size of the course ground I have not had any problems with loss of fat.

Last but not least, I nearly never exceed less than 1/2 C of water, usually more like 1/4 C to add curing or binders. I am guessing it allows the binders to grab more of the sausages  natural water/flavors/fats that way instead of H20 which will only probably evaporate during the de-water cycle of the smoker.

Also I have not done much with any meat but pork.

Now theres a lot to discuss (probably alot more I am misinformed upon)....LOL Its just what I have found seems to work well with what little I have done so far. No more than I have done I should have just kept my mouth shut and listened. Naaaaa....... LOL


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## reinhard

First of all I have to say, if you use a binder or not and you are happy with the sausage you make,  that is what is important.  I've made sausage without binders at times like most folks.  That was to see what difference it made.  Well it made a lot of difference.  I have posted pics on here before of some of the stuff I have made.  All of that sausage was made with added powdered dry milk.  In my opinion [and I have said it before a few times LOL] to have a nice and juicy sausage [links] you should use a binder.  To have that nice texture in summer sausage, you should use a binder.  After all when all is said and done,  the appearance is a important factor, to the taste buds before you even chomp on sausage.

What does a binder do as far as appearance?  It prevents shrinkage!!.  A binder does what the word says.  It binds the fat to the meat, thus keeping the sausage nice and juicy.  Just like making any sausage, when using a binder, the correct amount of water [or beer] should be used.  After all the spices, cure [if used], binder and water have been mixed well, the end result should be a sticky mix ready for stuffing.

Well what about shrinkage.  I can tell you that after smoking or cooking in the oven even 25 pounds of polish for example, I may have about two or three drops on the foil below the sausage or drip pan total.  And that has been consistent with me so far.  I use a binder in fresh sausage as well.  I vary the amount of powdered milk I use depending on how lean of a type of sausage mix I have.  The more fat in the mix I can go up to 1 cup per 5 pounds and less of course in something like summer sausage, but it's in there.  

I remember my grandfather who owned a butcher shop in Germany.  He would use bread crumbs in sausage to act as a binder.  Well that was many years ago but the idea was the same.  I have a buddy that uses the powdered milk in his burger for patties and meat loaf.  Haven't tried that but I think I'll give it a shot.  

So the main two reasons I use the binder is for appearance , less shrinkage, and a nice juicy end product.  Reinhard


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## dirtsailor2003

Well when using my LEM stuffer I just add lots of water, who knows what a binder would do. Plunger probably would stick to the sides of the canister and not even move! 

Okay I have used binders in some sausages and in others I have not. We make Fassett's country breakfast sausage into links and all I use is course ground pork butt, and the seasonings that Pop's calls out. I will add garlic powder and sometimes chili flakes. 

The summer sausage and pepperoni recipes I use call for buttermilk powder, not as a binder but to achieve the twang. I do believe though that the powdered milk does act as a binder. The Linguica recioe that I use has amephos . 

The chicken sausages that I have been making do not use a binder. So for me it really depends on the recipe and type of sausage I am making.


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## rgautheir20420

I've made just 1 sausage using a binder. It was a green onion and chicken sausage that used 100% chicken breast only. The only fat in the product was a 1/4 of olive oil and then the binder and the meat. It definitely stayed juicy when heated and cooked. Aside from that, I've made Keilbasa, SS, Andouille, and a few others and I haven't used any binders in them. I haven't made much fresh sausage, but that might be something I'd give it a shot in. I'm like Foam in that I like that shrunken casing look and think it lends to a nice snap with cut of bitten. I usually do that water bath after the smoke and bloom in the fridge for a couple days. 

Only once did I not do the water bath and just turned the smoker off and let them cool like that. The final product was extra shrunken casings and an amazing snap. What was even nicer, was when I sliced it up and fried some pieces they were still juicy. I've never had a final product not be juicy. I've had final products have case shrinking, but I like it.

I could see why others would use the binders. I just might have to give it a shot. 

BTW, how about some photos of some non-binder and binder final products 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






. Here's the one I did and let them cool in the smoker with no bath.













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__ rgautheir20420
__ Dec 29, 2014


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## sam3

The only time I use a binder is for summer sausage and Bologna. That's just my personal preference.


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## tropics

Joe I only use it in the sausages that I smoke Kielbasa, Beef Sticks. fresh Kielbasa,Italian I don't use it.I am new to smoking sausage.


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## mdboatbum

For me. as a complete sausage novice, I've found that a binder (in my case nonfat dried milk) gives me an extra bit of insurance against a "fat out". The first couple batches I made were dry and crumbly with all the fat staying either in the poaching water or in the pan. One batch was so bad that liquid fat ruptured the casing and squirted about a foot out of the pan. I did a little research and tried the NFDM and haven't had a problem since. I started off not knowing a thing, and I likely wasn't mixing the sausage thoroughly enough. I'm sure veteran sausage makers who scoff at the use of a binder are able to get the mixture to the perfect consistency every time. I'm just not experienced enough to count on that, and the binder helps me avoid making  $20 or $30 worth of meat into sausage nobody wants to eat.  
One last thing, I've never noticed a difference in flavor with or without the NFDM, only juiciness and texture.


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## woodcutter

I like using powdered milk as a binder for sausage stuffed in anything larger than a hog casing. I've been making summer sausage, bologna, and formed bacon in 4" casings and then slicing. The sliced pieces without binder will break when bent and slices with binder will bend and are more like a store bought slice. I don't notice much difference in moisture in the end but I know if sausage is smoked too hot, sausage with binder will turn out better. (kind of an insurance policy) The only sausage I add water to is Kabanosy. Powdered milk does change flavor.


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## bkleinsmid

Hey Joe.......

I have used NFDM or Soy with SS, 35mm Brats, and keilbasa and it seems to help with moisture and texture. I'm new to sausage so anything I can do to help is good.

Brad


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## elginplowboy

I do for any casing > 45mm. I seem to get a nicer profile when sliced.


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## boykjo

Ok heres my take.... I dont add binders as I see no need for a binder or so called NFDM. My results are a well binded juicy plump sausage. Lately I  been trying some binders like soy protien isolate and NFDM and am not yet on board with using them. With the added binder I do notice the sausage has more water retention but I am not seeing a difference in the bind. IMO  the fat is the binder and also important is the quality of the meat being used. (Good fresh whole meat with 20-30%fat). But even then I have used 90/10 and had great results with out a binder. A binder would be helpful  if conditions are not ideal especially when cooking temps are too high and fat out occurs. I also believe that excessive water added to the meat will ruin a good bind and that's where a binder would be helpful.

Here are some examples of sausages made without binders













joes pics 1202.JPG



__ boykjo
__ Mar 2, 2015


















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__ boykjo
__ Mar 3, 2015


















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__ boykjo
__ Mar 3, 2015


















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__ boykjo
__ Mar 3, 2015






Next batch of sausage I make I'll add a binder to a few lbs and compare them to the sausage without the binder and take some pictures of the sausages cut open and fried or heated.....

Joe


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## Bearcarver

When I make my All Beef "Bear Sticks", and "Bear Logs", and "Bear Loaf", I never use binders. I use Beef & Seasonings & TQ.

That's because I call them All Beef, not Binder Sticks, or Veggie Sticks, or Oatmeal Sticks.

I also do not use casings, I use 80/20 Beef, and they have never fallen apart, so I guess they really didn't need a "Binder".

Bear


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## diggingdogfarm

I don't use so-called 'binders' for several reasons.
If you develop and extract the salt soluble proteins in the right way, you don't need additives that retain moisture.

Exuded proteins are the binder which encircles fat and retains moisture and makes sausages what it is.













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__ diggingdogfarm
__ Mar 3, 2015


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## crazymoon

I sometimes use SPC and less fat in my sausage.


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## boykjo

DiggingDogFarm said:


> I don't use so-called 'binders' for several reasons.
> If you develop and extract the salt soluble proteins in the right way, you don't need additives that retain moisture.
> 
> Exuded proteins are the binder which encircles fat and retains moisture and makes sausages what it is.
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> myosin2.gif
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> __ diggingdogfarm
> __ Mar 3, 2015


Good information Dig.


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## ryno21

Still new to sausage making, but I have tried with and without. Recently did some snack sticks that were my best with NFDM, but also made some fresh Italian without that turned out great. "Sometimes"


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## WaterinHoleBrew

Just getting into the sausage making & very intrigued by this thread.... Be watchin for sure !


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## dirtsailor2003

What would be nice is a list of what is considered "binders" for sausage making and what isn't. It seems that some binders are also cross over flavor enhancers.


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## BGKYSmoker

BINDERS - Also known as Soy, Soy Protein Concentrate, Soy Flour, Soy Grits, Soy Protein Isolate - All soy products have a high protein value. This gives soy its binding capability, allowing you to add water (called added water) to your sausage for a moister product. These ingredients are used to prevent weight loss and shrinkage to products being processed in the smokehouse, by helping to retain the natural juices (called bound moisture) in the meat. This product also helps to bind the sausage together and can be used in meat products such as burgers to retain the natural juices from cooking out. Although not generally used in fresh sausages it may be added with good results.

You should use the following ratios:

Smoked products Use binder up to 5% of the meat weight.

Fresh products  Use binder up to 3% of the meat weight. Sausage binder weighs out at about 4 oz. per cup so 4 cups would equal about one lb.

Soy grits are used in patties and products like Hamburger Helper.

Soy protein concentrate is made from the refining process of soy beans 

These binders are ineffective for the most part of holding water and the natural juices, which are in the meat (called bound moister) at temperatures in excess of 165°F.

POTATO STARCH “BOOM” - A very high quality binder that will hold fat & has superior water holding capacity. Great for keeping very lean products moist during processing & cooking. Mix in this product after the cure, salt and seasonings have been added to meat mix. Recommended applications - reduced fat emulsified meat products, marinades and hams • Hi Viscosity  • Improves yield • Non allergenic  • Bland flavor - Will not add unacceptable flavor • One to one replacement with milk

CARROT BINDER “C-BIND”  

Use as an alternative to soy binder, soy protein & dry milk. This binder is created from carrot fiber. Will hold up to 27 times its weight in water thus retaining moisture & delivering a juicier product. It does not effect the taste of the product.

All natural "GRAS" approved Non HMO Non allergenic

Isolated Carrot Product 1-1/2 oz. Pkg- dos 25 lb of sausage


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## boykjo

nepas said:


> BINDERS - Also known as Soy, Soy Protein Concentrate, Soy Flour, Soy Grits, Soy Protein Isolate - All soy products have a high protein value. This gives soy its binding capability, allowing you to add water (called added water) to your sausage for a moister product. These ingredients are used to prevent weight loss and shrinkage to products being processed in the smokehouse, by helping to retain the natural juices (called bound moisture) in the meat. This product also helps to bind the sausage together and can be used in meat products such as burgers to retain the natural juices from cooking out. Although not generally used in fresh sausages it may be added with good results.
> 
> You should use the following ratios:
> 
> Smoked products Use binder up to 5% of the meat weight.
> 
> Fresh products  Use binder up to 3% of the meat weight. Sausage binder weighs out at about 4 oz. per cup so 4 cups would equal about one lb.
> 
> Soy grits are used in patties and products like Hamburger Helper.
> 
> Soy protein concentrate is made from the refining process of soy beans
> 
> These binders are ineffective for the most part of holding water and the natural juices, which are in the meat (called bound moister) at temperatures in excess of 165°F.
> 
> POTATO STARCH “BOOM” - A very high quality binder that will hold fat & has superior water holding capacity. Great for keeping very lean products moist during processing & cooking. Mix in this product after the cure, salt and seasonings have been added to meat mix. Recommended applications - reduced fat emulsified meat products, marinades and hams • Hi Viscosity  • Improves yield • Non allergenic  • Bland flavor - Will not add unacceptable flavor • One to one replacement with milk
> 
> CARROT BINDER “C-BIND”
> 
> Use as an alternative to soy binder, soy protein & dry milk. This binder is created from carrot fiber. Will hold up to 27 times its weight in water thus retaining moisture & delivering a juicier product. It does not effect the taste of the product.
> 
> All natural "GRAS" approved Non HMO Non allergenic
> 
> Isolated Carrot Product 1-1/2 oz. Pkg- dos 25 lb of sausage


 Some more good info........


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## paddy1998

Mostly make smoked polish at 30% fat and been disappointed with the fat/moisture when cooked.  Don't get me wrong, i like them and they go fast, but grilling them has sorta been a pain because of the flame ups, broiling spattered the oven and pan frying is a mess too.

Yesterday i experimented with knox gelatine as a binder and i am very happy with the results.  No splits, doesnt sort of fall apart at all when stir frying slices, and no fires (or, at least, smaller fires).

It's a little tricky to work with but planning ahead paid off.


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## danbono

Hi All 

After several attempts at making Bratwurst and Italian sausage, and only one time I was happy with the outcome, without a binder..Next time I will using NFDM as a binder .Looking forward to the out come.

My sausage has been dry and crumbly. Hoping the NFDM will make them much better.

Dan


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## mds51

I make a lot of Salami and Snack Sticks using the same recipe for both. This recipe that I have adapted to my tastes uses one cup of NFPDM and the results have been excellent. The Salami are smoked for five hours to attain a nice smoke flavor and an internal temperature of 120 degrees. They are then put in a 170 degree hot water bath to attain a 152 degree internal temperature. They are then cold water bathed to stop the cooking process and then dried on towels and then hung to dry for two weeks to make a great hard Salami. The Snack Sticks are smoked for ten to twelve hours to attain the 152 degree internal temperature and then cooled at room temperature for a few hours and then refrigerated for two days and then cut up and vacuum sealed for distribution. They have never lasted long enough to be frozen. My family and friends devour them as they are made. My point is that both recipes turn out great with two different smoking and finishing techniques using the NFPDM as a binder. Also the Salami before it is dry cured for two weeks is very moist and tasty like the Salami you get in the New York Delis. It is just that my family likes the texture and intensified taste of the spices that I use from the dry curing process.
mds51


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## chewmeister

DanBono said:


> Hi All
> 
> After several attempts at making Bratwurst and Italian sausage, and only one time I was happy with the outcome, without a binder..Next time I will using NFDM as a binder .Looking forward to the out come.
> 
> My sausage has been dry and crumbly. Hoping the NFDM will make them much better.
> 
> Dan


Are you making these as a fresh or smoked sausage? If fresh, and they are dry and crumbly you need more fat and maybe more water in the mix. I make a lot of fresh brats and Italians and they come out fine without any binder. I only use a binder for smoked sausages.


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## reinhard

DanBono,  I use powdered milk for fresh and smoked sausage.  It serves both types well, for it's job is to retain moisture.  One cup per 5 pounds of meat mix is what I  use for all types.  It's important to use the proper ratio of fat to lean depending what you are making.  Also the proper amount of water due to using powdered milk.  Now the water part is adjustable.  You should end up with a nice sticky mix when done.  For 25 pounds of polish for example I have used 5 to six cups of water with 5 1/2 cups being what I use most of the time.  That is not exactly a scientific formula on my part but just what has worked for me over time.  You will find that using powdered milk will give you a better product every time.

So why am I so hung up on using powdered milk?  I have been making sausage for over 40 years now and still going.  When I first started working as a butcher I seen the way it was made.  Didn't know what that powdery stuff was that was added to the large batches.  I was always fascinated over the whole procedure, but was more interested in the end results, because I wanted to go home and try some.  I worked with some great guy's back then and they filled me in with all that was used and why.  The binders were used exactly for the purpose I use them now.  However making sausage for sale, binders were also a factor in making profit.  Less loss, more gain.

Back then water was added pretty much as I use it now, by eyeball math instead of exact amounts each time.  Nobody get it exactly 80/20 or 50/50 or whatever fat to lean ration they want, but you can get close.  Same with judging the amount of liquid used in each batch.  My use of water or beer vary's, but not much from batch to batch.  5 pound batch or 25 pound batch.  They vary in liquid amounts or even spice amounts.  They never vary in cure amounts [if used] or powdered milk amounts.  What's important to me as far as texture is that sticky batch in the end that I will stuff into casings, patty, or bulk out.  Reinhard


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## knotfree

Where i work we sell a "Gluten free" sausage that contains rice flour as a binder .The sausage comes fresh pre-made from a central plant and i dont recall the nutritional labeling as to what % is added.


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## danbono

chewmeister said:


> Are you making these as a fresh or smoked sausage? If fresh, and they are dry and crumbly you need more fat and maybe more water in the mix. I make a lot of fresh brats and Italians and they come out fine without any binder. I only use a binder for smoked sausages.


Hi These were fresh hot smoked sausage. Only one time did they come moist and NOT crumbly. How does the fat content look to you? Do you have a good recipe for brats?

Thx Dan


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## chef willie

Well, I'm no master sausage maker by any stretch but I've gone both ways and probably could get by without the binder but often wind up using the 1 cup of NFDM mixed in right before stuffing as a 'crutch'? since early on most recipes/formulas I ran across the person used either the NFDM or soy. I tried the soy and was not impressed with the texture of it when mixed in so have pretty much stuck with the NFDM. I will say that my first SS was a bust, as many here may remember my lamenting the outcome, but thinking back I now attribute that fail to using cheaper fatty ground beef. I also tried the ECA add once and once only so far. Now, I use buttermilk as the liquid for my Slim Jims/stix and allow at least 24 hours minimum in the fridge to get the tang. Seems to work for me and once less thing to add. So, 2 sausage makers I totally trust....Reinhard & Joe.....have different opinions. Sighhhhhhh, go figure......LOL, Willie


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## bluewhisper

My experience is limited to grinding butts to make sausage patties, usually breakfast sausage but sometimes a chorizo version. When I first started, I would trim out fat but the result was too dry. Now I just grind everything and I still don't have fat running in the pan when I fry them.

I don't use any binders. I grind through a coarse plate, then mix in seasonings, and grind through a "hamburger" plate. I like the texture of the final result.


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## boykjo

Chef Willie said:


> Well, I'm no master sausage maker by any stretch but I've gone both ways and probably could get by without the binder but often wind up using the 1 cup of NFDM mixed in right before stuffing as a 'crutch'? since early on most recipes/formulas I ran across the person used either the NFDM or soy. I tried the soy and was not impressed with the texture of it when mixed in so have pretty much stuck with the NFDM. I will say that my first SS was a bust, as many here may remember my lamenting the outcome, but thinking back I now attribute that fail to *using cheaper fatty ground beef.* I also tried the ECA add once and once only so far. Now, I use buttermilk as the liquid for my Slim Jims/stix and allow at least 24 hours minimum in the fridge to get the tang. Seems to work for me and once less thing to add. So, 2 sausage makers I totally trust....Reinhard & Joe.....have different opinions. Sighhhhhhh, go figure......LOL, Willie


Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....


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## pc farmer

boykjo said:


> Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....


That was me,


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## chef willie

boykjo said:


> Too much water, poor quality/expiring , freezer burnt meat will also contribute to a grainy sausage. Are you grinding your own meat... Cfarmer or gary s started out with store bought ground meat and when he started grinding his own he seen what the difference was.....





c farmer said:


> That was me,


Yep, got burned once & that was enough for me as well....always grind my own pork for sausages. However, on snack stix or Slim Jims I now will use GB in the tubes but only the 93/7. Mix a 4# chub with 1 # of ground butt, stuff into 21MM casings and it's spot on for my taste. I have finally got my 'go to' recipe for the Slim Jims...even have GF Approval but must leave out the heat for her. So, now to experiment without using the NFDM....Willie


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## chewmeister

DanBono said:


> Hi These were fresh hot smoked sausage. Only one time did they come moist and NOT crumbly. How does the fat content look to you? Do you have a good recipe for brats?
> 
> Thx Dan


The fat content looks fine. I typically don't smoke brats and cook them as a fresh sausage. My go to recipe for a Sheboygan style brat is this;

5 lbs. pork shoulder

1 1/2 Tbs salt

1 Tbs sugar

1 tsp ground nutmeg

1/2 tsp ground mace

1/2 tsp ground coriander

2 tsp GBP

1/4 tsp marjoram

1 1/2 tsp ground ginger

1 cup ice water

I grind the pork through a 1/4" plate, add seasonings, then regrind through a 3/16" plate. I add the water and mix until it becomes sticky. Stuff into 33-35mm hog casings. I haven't used any binder as yet, but I may try using NFDM in my next batch to see if I notice any difference. To cook, I simmer them in a mix of water and beer with some sliced onion for about 20 minutes, then on to the grill to brown and crisp them up. Don't boil them, just simmer.


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## carl golden

well I am new to this sausage making and am sure glad we got this cleared up. My first attempt at summer sausage was a little disappointing as the sausage came out a bit dry. The next batch I am going to try powdered milk at 1/2 cup per 5# meat and see what happens.


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