# Question on PID Controller



## HalfSmoked (Aug 17, 2021)

Inkbird has a PID40W on Amazon would it be suitable for a MES40? 
PID Temperature Controller Kit
High Voltage 100ACV to 240ACT
Comes with SSR 40DA solid State Relay, K Type Thermocouple and White Heat Sink.
Selling for $41.00

I don't understand anything about a PID Unit other than they are used to replace faulty controllers.
Any help will be appreciated.
Either reply here or a PM.
Thanks 

Warren


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## tallbm (Aug 17, 2021)

HalfSmoked said:


> Inkbird has a PID40W on Amazon would it be suitable for a MES40?
> PID Temperature Controller Kit
> High Voltage 100ACV to 240ACT
> Comes with SSR 40DA solid State Relay, K Type Thermocouple and White Heat Sink.
> ...



Hi Warren.

I looked it up and it should do the trick.
The 40 Amp SSR will handle and switch on/off the voltage from you home outlet no problem (110/120 V).

What you are seeing on Amazon is just like 70% of what is needed to build a complete working controller.  

You see the PID the controller (black part with display).
The temp probe (thermocouple)
the 40 Amp SSR (Switches power to MES on/off)
the Heat Sink (dissipates heat from SSR so it doesn't overheat).

The way this all behaves is:

Plug complete built PID controller setup into home outlet
Plug rewired MES40 into PID
Put PID temp probe inside MES
Enter set temp into PID
PID will feed power on/off from home outlet to MES40 to hit and hold set temp

The way this wires up is represented  the following image.  Top image is the HOT wire and all the SSR signal switching,  Bottom image is the Neutral wire which is simple:







This can take a little while to digest so please don't feel defeated.  It becomes much clearer as you ask more questions and digest it more and more :)

I hope this info helps :)


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## river100 (Aug 23, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Hi Warren.
> 
> I looked it up and it should do the trick.
> The 40 Amp SSR will handle and switch on/off the voltage from you home outlet no problem (110/120 V).
> ...


I'm not trying to be an ass here but.. I build PID controlled systems and this diagram is confusing to me. I know what you are doing here but still could be confusing.
i suggest if you rewire the smoker then integrate the PID into the smoker unless you need to remove the PID from the weather.


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## cmayna (Aug 23, 2021)

HalfSmoked,
I use a Auber PID controller with the MES40.  Have never had a problem.  Very accurate, etc.  Way more expensive but for me, you get what you pay for.


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## tallbm (Aug 23, 2021)

river100 said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass here but.. I build PID controlled systems and this diagram is confusing to me. I know what you are doing here but still could be confusing.
> i suggest if you rewire the smoker then integrate the PID into the smoker unless you need to remove the PID from the weather.



Lol,  I hear ya.  It's kind of hard to depict for someone new to learn and I'm definitely no graphic or image creating wizard as you can tell haha :D

With the MES smokers I don't know of a good way to directly integrate the controller into the MES directly. There isn't any housing or space for the actual PID so a project box would be needed.

Something like this looks much better to our eyes but would be impossible for a person getting into building a PID to easily digest:

(Disclaimer: original photo didn't show Grounding to the metal box/chasis so I photoshopped it in with my miserable editing skills haha.  Grounding is important though and should be done properly.)







I'm game to replace those other diagrams with anything easier to digest.  Shot me some images/diagrams or links to images/diagrams and I will gladly replace with something cleaner :)


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## tallbm (Aug 23, 2021)

cmayna said:


> HalfSmoked,
> I use a Auber PID controller with the MES40.  Have never had a problem.  Very accurate, etc.  Way more expensive but for me, you get what you pay for.



I built a whole PID controller this weekend and I already have some parts and tools and such and it still ran me $124 so the Auber PID at $150 (before tax and shipping) is still a really competitive price, especially since they assemble it all for you.  The biggest issue I have is cutting holes and rectangles into metal since all I have are hand tools like Dremel's and drills haha.  It does the job but not elegantly :)


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## river100 (Aug 24, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Lol,  I hear ya.  It's kind of hard to depict for someone new to learn and I'm definitely no graphic or image creating wizard as you can tell haha :D
> 
> With the MES smokers I don't know of a good way to directly integrate the controller into the MES directly. There isn't any housing or space for the actual PID so a project box would be needed.
> 
> ...


That's a very nice job,  I use those same project boxes for encoder counters and yes the square hole is the hardest part.  What kind of temp sensor are you using ? PT100 ?
I think with that picture and a simple wiring diagram it would be pretty easy for most DIY guys that can connect a few wires.


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## HalfSmoked (Aug 24, 2021)

Don't consider anyone an ass river100 that is trying to help tallbm I appreciate your help as well. I have no clue what this is all about. Old dog here trying to do something new. Was given the smoker and was told the controller does not work. So all help is appreciated.

Warren


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## radioguy (Aug 24, 2021)

Get a nibble tool for square holes.  This plus a file set make nice square holes in thin stock.  

RG


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## cmayna (Aug 24, 2021)

If you lived nearby, I'd let you try one of my spare Aubers,who would love  some exercise.  There are other MES40  mods you might consider but we'll keep them for another thread.


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## tallbm (Aug 24, 2021)

HalfSmoked said:


> Don't consider anyone an ass river100 that is trying to help tallbm I appreciate your help as well. I have no clue what this is all about. Old dog here trying to do something new. Was given the smoker and was told the controller does not work. So all help is appreciated.
> 
> Warren



100% agree.

Also a good point was brought up to me. I don't show any Ground wiring but it is needed and needs to be done properly.

The diagrams I put up were to explain concepts and are definitely not an exact blueprint to be following when building and wiring a complete PID controller.

With all electricity related projects please consult a licensed electrician.
Get very well educated on the electrical part.
The rest is like connecting puzzle pieces that have to match, but you cannot ignore the fundamentals of electricity and electrical devices.  Things like open/closed circuits, hot vs neutral vs ground wiring,  Amperage and supporting components,  why grounding is mandatory and is needed, and how switches will break or complete a circuit and where the electricity is traveling into the device in regard to the switch (don't want power going around the switch).  Plus more.


All of this is another great reason that the Auber PID's are worth the $150 in addition to being competitive in price to building your own.


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## river100 (Aug 24, 2021)

tallbm said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> Also a good point was brought up to me. I don't show any Ground wiring but it is needed and needs to be done properly.
> 
> ...


I agree about the Auber kit. It's not a bad price for a working system.  if you are not confident in electrical wiring or have somebody that can look over it the Auber is a much better deal.


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## tallbm (Aug 24, 2021)

river100 said:


> That's a very nice job,  I use those same project boxes for encoder counters and yes the square hole is the hardest part.  What kind of temp sensor are you using ? PT100 ?
> I think with that picture and a simple wiring diagram it would be pretty easy for most DIY guys that can connect a few wires.



That photo I put in the last post was one grabbed off the internet to show something more physical rather than a drawing. 

Here is what I built over the weekend and it uses a K-type thermocouple no PT100.

 The project box was too small but I got everything to just safely fit and I'm hopeful the box will dissipate any heat very well, we'll see lol.  
Minimally I would have liked 1.5 inches added to every dimension but more would be even better. It was like a $14 project box I wanted to try out and knew it was going to be a little snug but hey live and learn :)

Also noticed how I scraped up the plates pretty well since I did all the cuts with hand tools, hand drill, and the use of plyers to hold the metal at times. I don't have a drill press with a vice and clamps here at the house and wanted it all done. Nothing a little black paint wont fix :D


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## river100 (Aug 24, 2021)

It does look tight but if it fits, it fits.
The build looks professional to me.
I just touch up the scrapes with paint or Sharpie LOL.
Once you get to set point temp the SSR won't be getting too much use. I don't know if those little PIDs get hot or not.
I use a larger format PID in a much bigger enclosure for the controls I build.

This thread is making me want to build one for mine. :)  I have most of the parts stuff laying around.  I saw a MYPIN setup video today on you tube  They're pretty popular.


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## tallbm (Aug 24, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Hi Warren.
> 
> I looked it up and it should do the trick.
> The 40 Amp SSR will handle and switch on/off the voltage from you home outlet no problem (110/120 V).
> ...



Also adding a grounding diagram example so grounding isn't missed:


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## tallbm (Aug 24, 2021)

river100 said:


> It does look tight but if it fits, it fits.
> The build looks professional to me.
> I just touch up the scrapes with paint or Sharpie LOL.
> Once you get to set point temp the SSR won't be getting too much use. I don't know if those little PIDs get hot or not.
> ...



Hey if you have an electric smoker I highly suggest you move to a PID controller.  Eliminate those temp swings and you can do sausage, bacon, and jerky without any worry!  I also changed out my safety rollout limit switch for one that allows me to do quick 325F smokes for poultry and get edible skin rather than rubber skin.  I don't go over 4hrs on those smokes so I don't stress the insulation.  Good thing the PID keeps such tight temps and doesn't have to run element full blast to hold temp :)

I looked around and the MyPin TA4 seemed to be the best, most hassle free, and accurately documented PID's of this type.  Oh and the price was great too!  
Read some funny behavior and quirks about some InkBirds that are out there along with stuff like the documentation was wrong about the hookups on the back.

I wanted no part of guessing and troubleshooting. So far this MyPin came through with flying colors and is easy to work... for a PID lol. No issues with documentation either. It went how I hoped it would just by following the docs and wiring. It all worked with no real issues :D

Has Celsius and Fahrenheit option.  Has ability to offset the probe reading to correct it (mine was reading 5F low during boil test, fixed with offset).  Is simple enough to apply set temp.


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## river100 (Aug 24, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Hey if you have an electric smoker I highly suggest you move to a PID controller.  Eliminate those temp swings and you can do sausage, bacon, and jerky without any worry!  I also changed out my safety rollout limit switch for one that allows me to do quick 325F smokes for poultry and get edible skin rather than rubber skin.  I don't go over 4hrs on those smokes so I don't stress the insulation.  Good thing the PID keeps such tight temps and doesn't have to run element full blast to hold temp :)
> 
> I looked around and the MyPin TA4 seemed to be the best, most hassle free, and accurately documented PID's of this type.  Oh and the price was great too!
> Read some funny behavior and quirks about some InkBirds that are out there along with stuff like the documentation was wrong about the hookups on the back.
> ...


How are you tuning the PID ?
Auto or did you get some starter settings from someone?
In my field PID tuning is where all the fun is.  I can't get anyone else to learn how to tune them. Most they will do is check cal and adjust the offset. And only one guy has done offsets so far.


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## dernektambura (Aug 24, 2021)

There is my setup in kamado section how to tune PID...


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## dernektambura (Aug 24, 2021)

Temperature PID probe setup + meat internal temperature PID setup in details...


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## HalfSmoked (Aug 25, 2021)

Tallbm Thanks for the like I appreciate it.

I have a habit of selling myself short. I worked for 15 years installing new equipment on yachts and I have also rewired my home. Which was inspected and passed so I guess if I would put my mind to it I can do it. MAYBE

Warren


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## dernektambura (Aug 25, 2021)

HalfSmoked said:


> Tallbm Thanks for the like I appreciate it.
> 
> I have a habit of selling myself short. I worked for 15 years installing new equipment on yachts and I have also rewired my home. Which was inspected and passed so I guess if I would put my mind to it I can do it. MAYBE
> 
> Warren


Most important PID setup step is HYS (hysteresis) setup which is ON/*OFF control  action that turns the output ON or OFF based on the set point*. Basically what it does, it monitoring upper and lower temperature range as set by ALM and SV...


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## tallbm (Aug 25, 2021)

river100 said:


> How are you tuning the PID ?
> Auto or did you get some starter settings from someone?
> In my field PID tuning is where all the fun is.  I can't get anyone else to learn how to tune them. Most they will do is check cal and adjust the offset. And only one guy has done offsets so far.


Yeah this is going to be the tough part.  I will be doing Autotune 1st and then trial an error tuning from the autotune settings.  I have no MyPIN tunings for an MES40 smoker :(

Since all PIDs are different with their algorithms I'm sure I'll be pulling my hair out for a little while as I get it dialed in hahaha




HalfSmoked said:


> Tallbm Thanks for the like I appreciate it.
> 
> I have a habit of selling myself short. I worked for 15 years installing new equipment on yachts and I have also rewired my home. Which was inspected and passed so I guess if I would put my mind to it I can do it. MAYBE
> 
> Warren



Oh yeah then you wouldn't have any problem with this once you put your mind to it and digest it a bit more.  You just have to take it 1 bit a time but it's quite a bit to tackle at once with the fabrication on the box, the arrangement of all the parts, and then wiring it all properly.

Then comes the tuning.  Another nice thing about the Auber's is guys have posted their tuning numbers which is a HUGE help lol


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## dernektambura (Aug 25, 2021)

Lets make it simple....
If you have option on your PID to do manual setting then forget about auto tuning... It doesn't work anyway...
Set your cooking temp SV...set your alarm AL1 to the temp you don't wanna go above and set your HYS how much temp can fluctuate between ON and OFF... Everything else keep at factory setting..
3 settings you should care about:
SV.....Al1....and HYS...
Trust me... I take care of big billet furnace in steel rolling plant... Tens of high sophisticated motorized PIDs to take care off..
If you have any questions I will walk you trough the setup step by step... All PIDs work on same principles... Except, there is also option to "ramp up" temp, for example: you wanna start with one temp setting and ramp it up at preset temp to get that crunchy skin on your leg of lamb... But then again, there is catch... To do that you will need extra source of heat to turn ON on top of that leg of lamb......many variables...


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## cmayna (Aug 25, 2021)

I guess I'm a little confused...........  If an Auber PID or other brand similar, is financially in a similar price and has equivalent features as compared to building your own, why not go with an Auber or similar prebuilt?
I mean why spend all the time, energy, and moola on this project if a satisfactory factory produced  PID is already built?  With a warranty?


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## tallbm (Aug 25, 2021)

cmayna said:


> I guess I'm a little confused...........  If an Auber PID or other brand similar, is financially in a similar price as compared to building your own, why not go with an Auber or similar?
> I mean why spend all the time, energy, and moola on this project if a satisfactory factory produced  PID is already built?



I saved $40 or so since I had most of the tools and ancillary parts lol.  Was just being a cheapskate and it was an opportunity to use up some more of these components I have lying around :D


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## tallbm (Aug 28, 2021)

HalfSmoked
  good news on my MYPIN T4 controller I built.  Factory settings of P=3, I=210, and D=0 worked fine in my MES40.

I put the PID probe right in the center under the lowest rack and smoke from lowest rack up.
I have my remote thermometers measuring left/back and front/right of the lowest rack as well.
I had to adjust the offset a good amount so that the rack heat level was about average. 

Airflow has a major impact on this and I was cooking with a pan, rack in the pan, and 22lbs of pork butts in the rack, so a different smoke would need different adjustments lol.

I did test the probe in boiling water and it was 5 degrees low so I know how it reads there.


In all I'm extremely pleased with the MYPIN TA4 and it's ease of use.  Using a PID is still kind of a foreign and very technical user experience but this one is easier when keeping that in mind.

In all the test smoke was successful.  The PID didn't need any P-I-D value tuning and the meat came out great!!!


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## tallbm (Aug 28, 2021)

tallbm said:


> HalfSmoked
> good news on my MYPIN T4 controller I built.  Factory settings of P=3, I=210, and D=0 worked fine in my MES40.
> 
> I put the PID probe right in the center under the lowest rack and smoke from lowest rack up.
> ...


Oh BTW forgot to mention PID held within 1 degree either way of a 275F set temp!


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## dernektambura (Aug 28, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Oh BTW forgot to mention PID held within 1 degree either way of a 275F set temp!


Just a note: it is NOT good idea to set PID to regulate temp for less than 10 - 15 deg... Reason: your heating element rapidly goes trough ON/OFF cycles, shortening life time of the heater...


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## pushok2018 (Aug 28, 2021)

cmayna said:


> I use a Auber PID controller with the MES40. Have never had a problem. Very accurate, etc. Way more expensive but for me, you get what you pay for.


Ditto on this. I use Auber PID with my TSM 30# electrical smoker for two years


cmayna said:


> If an Auber PID or other brand similar, is financially in a similar price and has equivalent features as compared to building your own, why not go with an Auber or similar prebuilt?


Absolutely agreed on this. At least, it worked for me....


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## HalfSmoked (Aug 28, 2021)

Thanks everyone for your support.

Question tallbm did you build your box or buy it ready made?

Warren


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## tallbm (Aug 28, 2021)

HalfSmoked said:


> Thanks everyone for your support.
> 
> Question tallbm did you build your box or buy it ready made?
> 
> Warren



I built my complete controller.  
I bought an aluminum project box enclosure, I didn't personally fabricate one if you are asking that.  I DID do all the face plate cuts though which is the most difficult part of this whole thing once you understand the wiring.

My housing/enclosure/project box was just BARELY big enough for this build.  *Minimal* dimensions you probably want for a size DIN 1/16 PID like mine are, 5.75in x 3.75in x 6.5in inch(W*H*L). Do not hesitate to go up multiple inches on each direction ESPECIALLY the length/depth of the whole thing.


I don't have a drill press and vise at home so did it all with hand tools like a hand held dremel, drill, tin snips, and plyers to hold the face plates. You can see how I scratched up a bit of the faces and would need to touch it up with black paint.

Also the more circle holes you can make the better. Rectangles and square holes are the devil to make precise. Finally you will need a Universal drill bit to drill holes big enough for things like the gable relief glands that hold the plug in/out plugs on the back of mine.

FYI, I learned a long time ago the cheap Chinese plug outlets you buy for these projects burn up and melt down in no time so I switched to cannibalizing 16AWG extension cords and using those cable relief glands, I also use the cord wiring for the guts so it's a great recycle job lol.
Best decision I could have made for those parts. 
Also use a heavy duty automobile switch if wiring in an on/off switch for the same reasons of cheapo Chinese rocker switches melting down no matter what amperage they say they support.
In this build I used a 40Amp marine panel breaker switch because I know it holds up :D

Let me know if you have anymore questions about parts and such.


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