# Tomato based sauce 101?



## dougmays (Jun 12, 2012)

Hey all,

so sauces is something i'm trying to learn. i've made quite a few tomato based sauces and most of the time you can still get a strong tomato flavor...i'm trying to learn how to tame that flavor. Is the trick to try to have enough ingredients to counter that flavor and equal the amount of tomato?

for example if i have 2 cups of tomato sauce to start with...should i try to get atleast 2 cups of other counter ingredients such as brown sugar, molasis, worsty sauce, chick broth, etc....?

thanks in advance


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## pops6927 (Jun 12, 2012)

a lot depends on the type of sauce and intensity you're trying to achieve, how much you cook it down also.  For example, for my spaghetti sauce I use a regular size can of petite diced tomatoes heavily drained, 1-2 cans tomato sauce and 1 large can of crushed tomatoes.  I first brown ground beef and finely chopped onion in the dutch oven, add oregano, Italian seasoning, chopped garlic, parsley, Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji], 2 boullion beef cubes, pepper, a dash of cayenne and the tomato-based products; cover until it is simmering then remove the lid.  After I re-stir the pot I cover it until it stops popping, then uncover and let simmer, allowing the moisture to escape until stirring again, and so on.  The sauce will cook down from a lot of little watery pools to just a few that will become thicker and thicker, then I pull the sauce, about an hour.  Then, when you pour it over your spaghetti it won't separate on the plate into pulp and water; it will have consistent conformity.


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## dougmays (Jun 12, 2012)

thanks pops!

i guess what i'm going for is BBQ sauces and a basic "red" sauce.

i wanted to make a red sauce based on the carolina red sauces...my goal was to make a sauce that could be used as a base for BBQ sauces or even a Chili sauce. i made one this past weekend and i got good reviews but people though it was more of a cocktail sauce for shrimp...so that's why i'm trying to mask the tomato flavor a big more


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## cliffcarter (Jun 13, 2012)

Sugar is usually used to cut the acidity in tomato dishes. In BBQ sauces sugar, molasses and honey add sweet to the flavor profile.

How much vinegar are you using? Carolina sauces, red or otherwise, have a lot of apple cider vinegar in them usually.


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## dougmays (Jun 15, 2012)

so far i've been doing about cider about half of the tomato sauce. so if i used 1 cup T-sauce i'll use 1/2 cup vinegar...


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## cliffcarter (Jun 15, 2012)

1/2 cup vinegar to 1 cup sauce sounds reasonable, how much brown sugar and molasses do you add? What other ingredients are there in your recipe?  BTW it will be easier to make your sauces if you start with ketchup rather than tomato sauce IMHO.


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## nickyb (Jun 15, 2012)

I make mine a gallon at a time roughly and I add in a fruit and hot pepper component but before that I normally add in about 1/4 worcestershire sauce, 1/2 cup light brown sugar, and 1 cup apple cider vinegar.  It's pretty good as a base though I know adding in the fruit changes it some.  Also some things I add is garlic, onion, and black pepper.  I have a few other things I like to add personally but other than that it should be a pretty good base.

- Nick


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## dougmays (Jun 16, 2012)

so i think the answer to my question is that i'm not using enough br. sugar! that'll cut the acidity.

also i like to start with sauce over ketchup because i feel like ketchup gives that salty taste. but again to the same point maybe that's because i'm not using enough sugar to cut it.

thanks all! i'll keep truckin!


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## nickyb (Jun 16, 2012)

Yeah for a while I fought with it tasting to tomato-ish / ketchupy and just more brown sugar and a few other tweaks, maybe a little local honey (helps with allergies) can help reduce that taste.  Sounds like you are on the right track so just keep it up!


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 16, 2012)

This is a version of a Tomato based Carolina sauce I make. I use Ketchup but there is no reason you can't substitute Tomato Puree. Canned Tomato Sauce has other seasonings in it so it is ready to use and I really have not found one I like. the puree lets you go any direction you wish...JJ

Red Bubba Q Juice

2C Cider Vinegar

1C Ketchup

1C Beer or Water

1/2C Texas Pete or other Hot Sauce

1/2C Brown Sugar

1tsp Gran. Garlic

1tsp Gran, Onion

1tsp Blk Pepper

1tsp Salt

1T Worcestershire Sauce

Cayenne if more heat is desired

Combine all and simmer 15 minutes to combine flavors.

Makes 5 Cups


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## rabbithutch (Jun 16, 2012)

Anyone reading this who is actually from one of the Carolinas (besides me)?

I grew up eating BBQ pork and chicken in Eastern NC; so the only sauce I know much about is based in vinegar and has absolutely NO tomato.  The only tomato sauce I ever saw was once in a while when someone demanded french fries (ugh) with their Q and ketchup to go with it.  We always suspected anyone who did that and would give them false directions. (:yahoo:

I once at Q in South Carolina that had mustard in it, but I never encountered any in either of the Carolinas that used tomato.  I've seen tomato used in slaw (Piedmont and western NC thing) but never in the meat sauce.

So, if there's anyone in the Palmetto or Tar Heel states who has been there at least 20 years and knows of tomato in BBQ sauce, please educate me and tell me what pit masters or restaurants use it.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 16, 2012)

rabbithutch said:


> Anyone reading this who is actually from one of the Carolinas (besides me)?
> I grew up eating BBQ pork and chicken in Eastern NC; so the only sauce I know much about is based in vinegar and has absolutely NO tomato. The only tomato sauce I ever saw was once in a while when someone demanded french fries (ugh) with their Q and ketchup to go with it. We always suspected anyone who did that and would give them false directions. (
> 
> 
> ...


From there NO...Been there YEP... Here you go...JJ

http://scbarbeque.com/bbq-history/

http://www.the-greatest-barbecue-recipes.com/north-carolina-barbecue-sauce-recipe.html

http://thebbqgrail.com/

http://www.grouprecipes.com/60868/western-north-carolina-bbq-sauce.html

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/439393

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/carolina-bbq-sauce/detail.aspx

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/western-north-carolina-vinegar-barbeque-sauce/

http://www.deandeluca.com/recipes/recipe_north_carolina_barbecue_sauce_western-style.aspx

http://www.bigoven.com/recipe/165484/western-nc-pulled-pork-bbq-sauce

http://www.discoversouthcarolina.com/see-do/food/flavors/maincourses/barbeque/default.aspx#2

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Lexington-Style-Bbq-Sauce-242264

http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/lexington-style-barbecue-sauce.aspx


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## dougmays (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks all!

hey nickyb, i see your in fort walton...go over to the Meetings and Gatherings section and check out our 2nd annual south florida gathering.


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## rabbithutch (Jun 18, 2012)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> From there NO...Been there YEP... Here you go...JJ
> 
> http://scbarbeque.com/bbq-history/
> 
> ...



That is all very interesting.  I lived in NC until I was 50 yo.  I have worked in all 100 counties - back in the '60s - and don't recall ever having run into any sauce served on pork barbecue that was based on tomatoes.  I am very familiar with red slaw that has ketchup in it.  I have eaten pork BBQ in the far west, western piedmont (Lexington), piedmont, and throughout the coastal plain.  I have also covered much of VA and almost all of SC and a good part of TN - but I never saw anyone use a tomato base for pork.  I saw it a lot for ribs and for beef, but never for pork.  Maybe times have changed or I was not eating in all the right places.

Or maybe I'm just too damned old!:pot:


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 18, 2012)

rabbithutch said:


> That is all very interesting. I lived in NC until I was 50 yo. I have worked in all 100 counties - back in the '60s - and don't recall ever having run into any sauce served on pork barbecue that was based on tomatoes. I am very familiar with red slaw that has ketchup in it. I have eaten pork BBQ in the far west, western piedmont (Lexington), piedmont, and throughout the coastal plain. I have also covered much of VA and almost all of SC and a good part of TN - but I never saw anyone use a tomato base for pork. I saw it a lot for ribs and for beef, but never for pork. Maybe times have changed or I was not eating in all the right places.
> Or maybe I'm just too damned old!


 We are really Splitting Hairs here but to satisfy Your Carolina Conventions.... Virtually all Carolina Sauces are " Vinegar Based ! " Depending on region the Vinegar Based Sauce is supplemented with either a Tomato Product, typically Tomato Sauce or Ketchup in the Western counties of North Carolina or as is common in the Central/Southern part of South Carolina, Mustard, typically American Yellow...I'm not making this stuff up! On my old computer I had a Map of North and South Carolina that laid out the Sauce preference, Vinegar, Tomato or Mustard sauces by Region/County. Of course now that I need it again I can't find the site it was on...JJ


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## dougmays (Jun 19, 2012)

that's be a great image to find again! let me know if you do


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## dougmays (Jun 19, 2012)




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## chef jimmyj (Jun 19, 2012)

dougmays said:


>


 That is very similar, Thanks Doug...I wonder how many restaurants fall within the Tomato/Ketchup shaded area...JJ


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## rabbithutch (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the map, JJ.

Like I said, it might just be that my memory has failed or that I just never fell into one of the restaurants that mixed tomato products with their sauce - or they offered sauce with tomato and without it and I chose the other.  Or maybe things have changed in the last 50 years.

I have eaten the Holy Grub in Lexington and Thomasville (both NC) many, many times and recall nothing about tomato sauce.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just surprised by the information because I don't remember having ever had sauce that I knew had tomato product in it.  Maybe I ate it without knowing the difference.  What I most remember about Western NC barbecue is that the sauce was not as hot and the 'cue seemed to made mostly from butts and shoulders whereas in Eastern NC most of the place I ate cooked the whole hog and 'picked' it meaning there would be more loin and ham in it - and frequently pieces of gristle or whatnot that made it past the preparers.  I tried it but never developed a taste for the SC sauce with mustard in it.

Again, I'm an old man and haven't lived in NC for 20 years.  And I never was the brightest bulb in the box.

But, thinkin' on it - I've never had any pork barbecue I didn't like!


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 20, 2012)

No problem Rabbit, My Wife complains that I Can't Remember S#!T all the time...I would love to open my own Q Joint some time and have learned, at least with us Yankees, you better have 4-5 different style sauces available representing the regional styles so folks can pick their favorite. My preference is a NC Vinegary Finishing Sauce mixed in the PP and a Sweet & Spicy KC style BBQ Sauce on top..JJ


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## dougmays (Jun 12, 2012)

Hey all,

so sauces is something i'm trying to learn. i've made quite a few tomato based sauces and most of the time you can still get a strong tomato flavor...i'm trying to learn how to tame that flavor. Is the trick to try to have enough ingredients to counter that flavor and equal the amount of tomato?

for example if i have 2 cups of tomato sauce to start with...should i try to get atleast 2 cups of other counter ingredients such as brown sugar, molasis, worsty sauce, chick broth, etc....?

thanks in advance


----------



## pops6927 (Jun 12, 2012)

a lot depends on the type of sauce and intensity you're trying to achieve, how much you cook it down also.  For example, for my spaghetti sauce I use a regular size can of petite diced tomatoes heavily drained, 1-2 cans tomato sauce and 1 large can of crushed tomatoes.  I first brown ground beef and finely chopped onion in the dutch oven, add oregano, Italian seasoning, chopped garlic, parsley, Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji], 2 boullion beef cubes, pepper, a dash of cayenne and the tomato-based products; cover until it is simmering then remove the lid.  After I re-stir the pot I cover it until it stops popping, then uncover and let simmer, allowing the moisture to escape until stirring again, and so on.  The sauce will cook down from a lot of little watery pools to just a few that will become thicker and thicker, then I pull the sauce, about an hour.  Then, when you pour it over your spaghetti it won't separate on the plate into pulp and water; it will have consistent conformity.


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## dougmays (Jun 12, 2012)

thanks pops!

i guess what i'm going for is BBQ sauces and a basic "red" sauce.

i wanted to make a red sauce based on the carolina red sauces...my goal was to make a sauce that could be used as a base for BBQ sauces or even a Chili sauce. i made one this past weekend and i got good reviews but people though it was more of a cocktail sauce for shrimp...so that's why i'm trying to mask the tomato flavor a big more


----------



## cliffcarter (Jun 13, 2012)

Sugar is usually used to cut the acidity in tomato dishes. In BBQ sauces sugar, molasses and honey add sweet to the flavor profile.

How much vinegar are you using? Carolina sauces, red or otherwise, have a lot of apple cider vinegar in them usually.


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## dougmays (Jun 15, 2012)

so far i've been doing about cider about half of the tomato sauce. so if i used 1 cup T-sauce i'll use 1/2 cup vinegar...


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## cliffcarter (Jun 15, 2012)

1/2 cup vinegar to 1 cup sauce sounds reasonable, how much brown sugar and molasses do you add? What other ingredients are there in your recipe?  BTW it will be easier to make your sauces if you start with ketchup rather than tomato sauce IMHO.


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## nickyb (Jun 15, 2012)

I make mine a gallon at a time roughly and I add in a fruit and hot pepper component but before that I normally add in about 1/4 worcestershire sauce, 1/2 cup light brown sugar, and 1 cup apple cider vinegar.  It's pretty good as a base though I know adding in the fruit changes it some.  Also some things I add is garlic, onion, and black pepper.  I have a few other things I like to add personally but other than that it should be a pretty good base.

- Nick


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## dougmays (Jun 16, 2012)

so i think the answer to my question is that i'm not using enough br. sugar! that'll cut the acidity.

also i like to start with sauce over ketchup because i feel like ketchup gives that salty taste. but again to the same point maybe that's because i'm not using enough sugar to cut it.

thanks all! i'll keep truckin!


----------



## nickyb (Jun 16, 2012)

Yeah for a while I fought with it tasting to tomato-ish / ketchupy and just more brown sugar and a few other tweaks, maybe a little local honey (helps with allergies) can help reduce that taste.  Sounds like you are on the right track so just keep it up!


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 16, 2012)

This is a version of a Tomato based Carolina sauce I make. I use Ketchup but there is no reason you can't substitute Tomato Puree. Canned Tomato Sauce has other seasonings in it so it is ready to use and I really have not found one I like. the puree lets you go any direction you wish...JJ

Red Bubba Q Juice

2C Cider Vinegar

1C Ketchup

1C Beer or Water

1/2C Texas Pete or other Hot Sauce

1/2C Brown Sugar

1tsp Gran. Garlic

1tsp Gran, Onion

1tsp Blk Pepper

1tsp Salt

1T Worcestershire Sauce

Cayenne if more heat is desired

Combine all and simmer 15 minutes to combine flavors.

Makes 5 Cups


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## rabbithutch (Jun 16, 2012)

Anyone reading this who is actually from one of the Carolinas (besides me)?

I grew up eating BBQ pork and chicken in Eastern NC; so the only sauce I know much about is based in vinegar and has absolutely NO tomato.  The only tomato sauce I ever saw was once in a while when someone demanded french fries (ugh) with their Q and ketchup to go with it.  We always suspected anyone who did that and would give them false directions. (:yahoo:

I once at Q in South Carolina that had mustard in it, but I never encountered any in either of the Carolinas that used tomato.  I've seen tomato used in slaw (Piedmont and western NC thing) but never in the meat sauce.

So, if there's anyone in the Palmetto or Tar Heel states who has been there at least 20 years and knows of tomato in BBQ sauce, please educate me and tell me what pit masters or restaurants use it.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 16, 2012)

rabbithutch said:


> Anyone reading this who is actually from one of the Carolinas (besides me)?
> I grew up eating BBQ pork and chicken in Eastern NC; so the only sauce I know much about is based in vinegar and has absolutely NO tomato. The only tomato sauce I ever saw was once in a while when someone demanded french fries (ugh) with their Q and ketchup to go with it. We always suspected anyone who did that and would give them false directions. (
> 
> 
> ...


From there NO...Been there YEP... Here you go...JJ

http://scbarbeque.com/bbq-history/

http://www.the-greatest-barbecue-recipes.com/north-carolina-barbecue-sauce-recipe.html

http://thebbqgrail.com/

http://www.grouprecipes.com/60868/western-north-carolina-bbq-sauce.html

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/439393

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/carolina-bbq-sauce/detail.aspx

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/western-north-carolina-vinegar-barbeque-sauce/

http://www.deandeluca.com/recipes/recipe_north_carolina_barbecue_sauce_western-style.aspx

http://www.bigoven.com/recipe/165484/western-nc-pulled-pork-bbq-sauce

http://www.discoversouthcarolina.com/see-do/food/flavors/maincourses/barbeque/default.aspx#2

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Lexington-Style-Bbq-Sauce-242264

http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/lexington-style-barbecue-sauce.aspx


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## dougmays (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks all!

hey nickyb, i see your in fort walton...go over to the Meetings and Gatherings section and check out our 2nd annual south florida gathering.


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## rabbithutch (Jun 18, 2012)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> From there NO...Been there YEP... Here you go...JJ
> 
> http://scbarbeque.com/bbq-history/
> 
> ...



That is all very interesting.  I lived in NC until I was 50 yo.  I have worked in all 100 counties - back in the '60s - and don't recall ever having run into any sauce served on pork barbecue that was based on tomatoes.  I am very familiar with red slaw that has ketchup in it.  I have eaten pork BBQ in the far west, western piedmont (Lexington), piedmont, and throughout the coastal plain.  I have also covered much of VA and almost all of SC and a good part of TN - but I never saw anyone use a tomato base for pork.  I saw it a lot for ribs and for beef, but never for pork.  Maybe times have changed or I was not eating in all the right places.

Or maybe I'm just too damned old!:pot:


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 18, 2012)

rabbithutch said:


> That is all very interesting. I lived in NC until I was 50 yo. I have worked in all 100 counties - back in the '60s - and don't recall ever having run into any sauce served on pork barbecue that was based on tomatoes. I am very familiar with red slaw that has ketchup in it. I have eaten pork BBQ in the far west, western piedmont (Lexington), piedmont, and throughout the coastal plain. I have also covered much of VA and almost all of SC and a good part of TN - but I never saw anyone use a tomato base for pork. I saw it a lot for ribs and for beef, but never for pork. Maybe times have changed or I was not eating in all the right places.
> Or maybe I'm just too damned old!


 We are really Splitting Hairs here but to satisfy Your Carolina Conventions.... Virtually all Carolina Sauces are " Vinegar Based ! " Depending on region the Vinegar Based Sauce is supplemented with either a Tomato Product, typically Tomato Sauce or Ketchup in the Western counties of North Carolina or as is common in the Central/Southern part of South Carolina, Mustard, typically American Yellow...I'm not making this stuff up! On my old computer I had a Map of North and South Carolina that laid out the Sauce preference, Vinegar, Tomato or Mustard sauces by Region/County. Of course now that I need it again I can't find the site it was on...JJ


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## dougmays (Jun 19, 2012)

that's be a great image to find again! let me know if you do


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## dougmays (Jun 19, 2012)




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## chef jimmyj (Jun 19, 2012)

dougmays said:


>


 That is very similar, Thanks Doug...I wonder how many restaurants fall within the Tomato/Ketchup shaded area...JJ


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## rabbithutch (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the map, JJ.

Like I said, it might just be that my memory has failed or that I just never fell into one of the restaurants that mixed tomato products with their sauce - or they offered sauce with tomato and without it and I chose the other.  Or maybe things have changed in the last 50 years.

I have eaten the Holy Grub in Lexington and Thomasville (both NC) many, many times and recall nothing about tomato sauce.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just surprised by the information because I don't remember having ever had sauce that I knew had tomato product in it.  Maybe I ate it without knowing the difference.  What I most remember about Western NC barbecue is that the sauce was not as hot and the 'cue seemed to made mostly from butts and shoulders whereas in Eastern NC most of the place I ate cooked the whole hog and 'picked' it meaning there would be more loin and ham in it - and frequently pieces of gristle or whatnot that made it past the preparers.  I tried it but never developed a taste for the SC sauce with mustard in it.

Again, I'm an old man and haven't lived in NC for 20 years.  And I never was the brightest bulb in the box.

But, thinkin' on it - I've never had any pork barbecue I didn't like!


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 20, 2012)

No problem Rabbit, My Wife complains that I Can't Remember S#!T all the time...I would love to open my own Q Joint some time and have learned, at least with us Yankees, you better have 4-5 different style sauces available representing the regional styles so folks can pick their favorite. My preference is a NC Vinegary Finishing Sauce mixed in the PP and a Sweet & Spicy KC style BBQ Sauce on top..JJ


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