# PID controller or Non PID controller



## anglerman

I wrote this up to share the info to some people on Facebook and I thought I’d share it here for people that may or may not know the difference. Although I’m guessing here most people do. Before I get slack I’m not giving my opinion on which one is better then another just the difference in controllers.


The biggest difference between Camp Chef, Pit Boss, Traeger and GMG Compared to the $1K+ grills likes Rec-Tec, Pellet Pro, Yoder, Memphis and I know I’m forgetting some.



The Controller the 1K+ grills have what is called a PID Controller ( Proportional, Integral, Derivative ) in short these grills have a temp probe in the cook chamber constantly reading the temp and relaying the data back to the controller which is then continually adjusting auger speed and blower fan to maintain your set temperature normally within +/- 5 degrees.


The lower priced grills may or may not have a digital temp readout on the controller and although this temperature is reading a sensor from somewhere within the grill ( Not sure where) the data is not sent back to the controller in order to control the auger and fan for maintaining chamber temperature. Most of them have a dial thermostat with pre labeled temps normally in increments of 25 – 50 degrees which can sometimes trick the owner into thinking they can set the dial to 250 and hold that temp. Don’t get me wrong some of them will hold pretty well but the company has preprogrammed these temp settings to control the auger. So say you have it set for 350 this is an example the auger might run for 10 seconds and off for 30 seconds. If you have the dial set for 225 the auger might run for 5 seconds and off for 45 seconds and the fan is blowing the entire temp. So the cook chamber temps of these grills will tend to run differently from the digital readout based on outdoor weather ( Air Temp, Humidity ) how much meat you have in and the temps of the meat, and the quality of the pellets used.


And of course the minor differences of metal thickness, type of metal ( etc., stainless ) hopper size and warranties.


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## troutman

Like anything else in life, _the more you pay the more you get.  _The PID controller is pretty much the current state of the art, with the probable exception of Yoder.  I was told they have a proprietary controller but my hunch is it's based on the same algorithms as the PID.


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## bregent

anglerman said:


> I wrote this up to share the info to some people on Facebook and I thought I’d share it here for people that may or may not know the difference. Although I’m guessing here most people do. Before I get slack I’m not giving my opinion on which one is better then another just the difference in controllers.
> 
> The biggest difference between Camp Chef, Pit Boss, Traeger and GMG Compared to the $1K+ grills likes Rec-Tec, Pellet Pro, Yoder, Memphis and I know I’m forgetting some.
> 
> The Controller the 1K+ grills have what is called a PID Controller ( Proportional, Integral, Derivative ) in short these grills have a temp probe in the cook chamber constantly reading the temp and relaying the data back to the controller which is then continually adjusting auger speed and blower fan to maintain your set temperature normally within +/- 5 degrees.
> 
> The lower priced grills may or may not have a digital temp readout on the controller and although this temperature is reading a sensor from somewhere within the grill ( Not sure where) the data is not sent back to the controller in order to control the auger and fan for maintaining chamber temperature. Most of them have a dial thermostat with pre labeled temps normally in increments of 25 – 50 degrees which can sometimes trick the owner into thinking they can set the dial to 250 and hold that temp. Don’t get me wrong some of them will hold pretty well but the company has preprogrammed these temp settings to control the auger. So say you have it set for 350 this is an example the auger might run for 10 seconds and off for 30 seconds. If you have the dial set for 225 the auger might run for 5 seconds and off for 45 seconds and the fan is blowing the entire temp. So the cook chamber temps of these grills will tend to run differently from the digital readout based on outdoor weather ( Air Temp, Humidity ) how much meat you have in and the temps of the meat, and the quality of the pellets used.
> 
> And of course the minor differences of metal thickness, type of metal ( etc., stainless ) hopper size and warranties.



Sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation in your post.
Your explanation of non-PID controllers is just plain wrong. All of those controllers sense the temperatures of the RTD to control the duty cycle of the auger. How most of them work is that they use one duty cycle when the grill temp is above the setpoint, and another when it is below setpoint.  In this way they are able to stay fairly close to the setpoint across a wide range of settings, pellet types, ambient temp, etc. They don't alter the fan speed, but not all PID controllers do either.

Now, many grills also have a smoke mode which is purely a timed auger mode. But when set to a temperature mode, they do use the RTD to adjust the temps.

And the GMG does have a PID controller, as do many <1K grills.


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## anglerman

bregent said:


> Sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation in your post.
> Your explanation of non-PID controllers is just plain wrong. All of those controllers sense the temperatures of the RTD to control the duty cycle of the auger. How most of them work is that they use one duty cycle when the grill temp is above the setpoint, and another when it is below setpoint.  In this way they are able to stay fairly close to the setpoint across a wide range of settings, pellet types, ambient temp, etc. They don't alter the fan speed, but not all PID controllers do either.
> 
> Now, many grills also have a smoke mode which is purely a timed auger mode. But when set to a temperature mode, they do use the RTD to adjust the temps.
> 
> And the GMG does have a PID controller, as do many <1K grills.



Thanks for the update, to bad I can’t figure out how to delete it.. lol


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## anglerman

My brother in-law just bought the pitboss 820 and I wrote this up after watching him try to do a Pork butt Sunday... his knob was set at 250 and I was seeing the controller reading 375 and over 400 at times... and for the life of me couldn’t find a temp probe in the cook chamber wired back to the controller.


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## bregent

The manual for the 820 shows the RTD facing upright, inside the barrel on the left hand side.


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## anglerman

bregent said:


> The manual for the 820 shows the RTD facing upright, inside the barrel on the left hand side.
> 
> 
> View attachment 340145



Man thanks, I’m gonna ask him to double check his chamber because I did not see that in there


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## bregent

Well, if it isn't in the correct place, that could account for the crazy temperatures you were seeing.


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## johnmeyer

A little more on what a PID really does compared to what you get in a cheaper controller, like what is used in the MES smoker.

Almost any electric cooking enclosure has some sort of sensor in the oven which is then tied to a switch which turns the heat on and off as the temperature inside the cooking device goes above and below some sort of set point. The old fashioned controllers use a piece of bi-metal which bends as it gets heated. The bending causes the metal to make contact with another piece of metal, thus opening and closing the circuit to the heating element.

The problem with this approach is that even after the bi-metal switch turns off the electricity to the heating element, that element is still red hot, and therefore continues to heat the box, causing the temperature to overshoot the mark. A similar thing happens as the box cools. The switch turn the heating element back on, but the element doesn't heat up right away, so the box's temperature gets much cooler than the set point.

The PID controller looks not only at the set point, but at the rate of temperature change (the "derivative" part of PID) as the heating element is turned on and off. It uses this information to "anticipate" when to turn the heating element on and off, thus turning it on _before_ the temperature drops to the set point, and turning off _before_ the set temperature is reached.

A PID controller also energizes the heating element with less than 100% of the power (the "proportional" part of PID) as the enclosure nears the set point. When designed correctly, such a controller can keep the oven temperature to within a degree or two of the desired temperature.

However, IMHO, such a controller is complete overkill for most cooking applications because food isn't that sensitive to 20-30 degree over/under shoots. The set point definitely needs to be accurate (i.e., the average temperature), but small variations don't matter much.

There are exceptions to this, and sous vide is the most obvious example. That method of cooking relies on the water bath being at the precise temperature, and at not changing at all. A PID controller is mandatory.


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## Zhaas1983

I can say that PID controllers maybe neat and interesting, but companies like Traeger can accomplish precise control without the use of a PID controller. Her is a video of my non PID, thermostat controlled controller, and as you can see, set at 250°, it starts feeding at 245° and only rises to 260° before coming back down. It has always worked this good, even after a few smokes without cleaning, and the smoker is over 4 years old.


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## bregent

Zhaas1983 said:


> I can say that PID controllers maybe neat and interesting, but companies like Traeger can accomplish precise control without the use of a PID controller. Her is a video of my non PID, thermostat controlled controller, and as you can see, set at 250°, it starts feeding at 245° and only rises to 260° before coming back down. It has always worked this good, even after a few smokes without cleaning, and the smoker is over 4 years old.




Yes, we know they can work good and most of the time they do. And you don't need precise temperature control to make good food. But there are many cases reported when they do not achieve reasonable temperature control. I've seen many folks with Traegers, CampChef and other non PID controlled grills complain about wild temperature swings. I had a new CampChef that would overshoot by more than 100F each cycle and eventually flame out. You just don't hear much about those types of problems with PID controllers, or other controllers that use algorithms that are more sophisticated than simple timed duty cycle controllers.


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## Zhaas1983

bregent said:


> Yes, we know they can work good and most of the time they do. And you don't need precise temperature control to make good food. But there are many cases reported when they do not achieve reasonable temperature control. I've seen many folks with Traegers, CampChef and other non PID controlled grills complain about wild temperature swings. I had a new CampChef that would overshoot by more than 100F each cycle and eventually flame out. You just don't hear much about those types of problems with PID controllers, or other controllers that use algorithms that are more sophisticated than simple timed duty cycle controllers.


Maybe I just got lucky then, but after 4 years of a lot of use, I have never had a flame out or a huge overshoot, except maybe during startup, with my cheap $350 pellet popper. I have looked into it a lot lately though, and have seen a LOT of issues with temp swings. It just seems pretty simple to me, kick auger on when the temp drops to 5° below set temp, and off when it rises 5°. I also think a proper p setting helps a bunch too.


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## Retread68

Forum Newbee here, but old enough to be well into medicare!  A couple months ago I made a midlife change (anyone can hope) and purchased a Camp Chef PG24DLX smoker after reviewing mindless numbers of various brand reviews, etc.   After using the smoker 3 times I contacted customer service regarding temp swings (as indicated on the controller and verified with independent accurate thermometer inserted into the smoke chamber, ie: cooking area).
The set pt was 300, for 3 hrs temps continuously swung from 205 to 405.  After 3 hrs the set pt was adjusted to 250. For the next 1 hr temps swung between 190 to 342.   After 4 hrs the temp went to 525 and I shut the thing down.
Not wanting to complain 1/2 cocked, I decided to put a couple nice racks of rib on to smoke for 5 hrs.  Long story short, the smoker performed exactly as previously except after 4 hrs 10 min the controller threw an error code and shut itself off.

I contacted Camp Chef customer service with a lengthy log of actual temps achieved and asked for help.  They immediately sent a new thermometer and a new controller and explained they had not seen one of their controller shut itself off.   I have one!   Camp Chef customer service is EXCELLENT !

Unfortunately Camp Chef's Chinese made controllers aren't representative of the fine people that work at the company.  With the new thermometer and controller installed I smoked 4 trout for 90 minutes at a temp set pt of 225 last night.  Ahhh true to it's fine design/build quality, the controller maintained a consistent temperature between 160 and 362 with verified temps using an independent thermometer in the cooking area indicating true temps to be approx 10-35 degrees warmer.

My question to anyone/everyone is:  Should I invest in a new after-market PID controller, go back to plain grilling on the gas grill and buy someone else's smoked BBQ, dig out the 45 yrs old cast aluminum hibachi, or just go on and check into the local old folks home and dream about BBQ ?    Obviously a different Chinese controller mfg'd for Camp Chef has little chance of providing acceptable results, so I just won't even throw that option out there.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others.    Thank you.
Sorry for the long venting post.


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## anglerman

Retread68 said:


> Forum Newbee here, but old enough to be well into medicare!  A couple months ago I made a midlife change (anyone can hope) and purchased a Camp Chef PG24DLX smoker after reviewing mindless numbers of various brand reviews, etc.   After using the smoker 3 times I contacted customer service regarding temp swings (as indicated on the controller and verified with independent accurate thermometer inserted into the smoke chamber, ie: cooking area).
> The set pt was 300, for 3 hrs temps continuously swung from 205 to 405.  After 3 hrs the set pt was adjusted to 250. For the next 1 hr temps swung between 190 to 342.   After 4 hrs the temp went to 525 and I shut the thing down.
> Not wanting to complain 1/2 cocked, I decided to put a couple nice racks of rib on to smoke for 5 hrs.  Long story short, the smoker performed exactly as previously except after 4 hrs 10 min the controller threw an error code and shut itself off.
> 
> I contacted Camp Chef customer service with a lengthy log of actual temps achieved and asked for help.  They immediately sent a new thermometer and a new controller and explained they had not seen one of their controller shut itself off.   I have one!   Camp Chef customer service is EXCELLENT !
> 
> Unfortunately Camp Chef's Chinese made controllers aren't representative of the fine people that work at the company.  With the new thermometer and controller installed I smoked 4 trout for 90 minutes at a temp set pt of 225 last night.  Ahhh true to it's fine design/build quality, the controller maintained a consistent temperature between 160 and 362 with verified temps using an independent thermometer in the cooking area indicating true temps to be approx 10-35 degrees warmer.
> 
> My question to anyone/everyone is:  Should I invest in a new after-market PID controller, go back to plain grilling on the gas grill and buy someone else's smoked BBQ, dig out the 45 yrs old cast aluminum hibachi, or just go on and check into the local old folks home and dream about BBQ ?    Obviously a different Chinese controller mfg'd for Camp Chef has little chance of providing acceptable results, so I just won't even throw that option out there.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others.    Thank you.
> Sorry for the long venting post.



This would be my suggestion 

https://smokedaddyinc.com/product/pellet-pro-exclusive-pid-controller-pellet-grill-upgrade/

Although I’d call the company to find out for sure if it fits and what it involves


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## Retread68

Thanks Anglerman - That is the exact PID controller I was looking at.  They have some very specific specs for the fan/auger on that controller to work with.  I will call them instead of the old folks home and see what they suggest.
Have a wonderful day.   I will be trout hunting in Missouri next week !


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## anglerman

Retread68 said:


> Thanks Anglerman - That is the exact PID controller I was looking at.  They have some very specific specs for the fan/auger on that controller to work with.  I will call them instead of the old folks home and see what they suggest.
> Have a wonderful day.   I will be trout hunting in Missouri next week !



I own thier pellet hopper which I installed on an old propane smoker. Temps earlier hold within +/- 10 but 95 percent of the time it’s +/- 5


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## Humo18

Retread68 said:


> Forum Newbee here, but old enough to be well into medicare!  A couple months ago I made a midlife change (anyone can hope) and purchased a Camp Chef PG24DLX smoker after reviewing mindless numbers of various brand reviews, etc.   After using the smoker 3 times I contacted customer service regarding temp swings (as indicated on the controller and verified with independent accurate thermometer inserted into the smoke chamber, ie: cooking area).
> The set pt was 300, for 3 hrs temps continuously swung from 205 to 405.  After 3 hrs the set pt was adjusted to 250. For the next 1 hr temps swung between 190 to 342.   After 4 hrs the temp went to 525 and I shut the thing down.
> Not wanting to complain 1/2 cocked, I decided to put a couple nice racks of rib on to smoke for 5 hrs.  Long story short, the smoker performed exactly as previously except after 4 hrs 10 min the controller threw an error code and shut itself off.
> 
> I contacted Camp Chef customer service with a lengthy log of actual temps achieved and asked for help.  They immediately sent a new thermometer and a new controller and explained they had not seen one of their controller shut itself off.   I have one!   Camp Chef customer service is EXCELLENT !
> 
> Unfortunately Camp Chef's Chinese made controllers aren't representative of the fine people that work at the company.  With the new thermometer and controller installed I smoked 4 trout for 90 minutes at a temp set pt of 225 last night.  Ahhh true to it's fine design/build quality, the controller maintained a consistent temperature between 160 and 362 with verified temps using an independent thermometer in the cooking area indicating true temps to be approx 10-35 degrees warmer.
> 
> My question to anyone/everyone is:  Should I invest in a new after-market PID controller, go back to plain grilling on the gas grill and buy someone else's smoked BBQ, dig out the 45 yrs old cast aluminum hibachi, or just go on and check into the local old folks home and dream about BBQ ?    Obviously a different Chinese controller mfg'd for Camp Chef has little chance of providing acceptable results, so I just won't even throw that option out there.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others.    Thank you.
> Sorry for the long venting post.



Hi retread68, could you share with us the results of smoking your 4 trout?  In spite of the variations were the results good? or were the trout's flavor ruined?


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## Retread68

Humo - The first time I smoked trout fairly much like I normally cook them on charcoal grill.  The smoker dried them out, they were over cooked, and not even honorable mention-able!
The 2nd time they were in brine for 8 hrs before going in the smoker, short pieces of skewer sticks were used to keep them open (whole fish), they were smoked for 1 1/2 hrs with hickory pellets and they were delicious.   No Blue Ribbon yet, but I'm working on it.

The brine was: 1/2 gal H20, 1/2 cup table sugar, 1/2 cup brown sugar, 1/2 cup salt, 2 Tbsp garlic powder, and 3 Tbsp Lemon juice.    After 8 hrs soaking, rinse very well, pat dry and place in smoker.   I was surprised at how moist and flavorful they were.   I will add some Cajun Spices to the next batch just for a little zip.

The trout came from Montauk - if you are familiar with the place.   Last week majority of my catch were 1-2 lb each on #12 olive woolly bugger, with bling.


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## Humo18

Retread68 said:


> Humo - The first time I smoked trout fairly much like I normally cook them on charcoal grill.  The smoker dried them out, they were over cooked, and not even honorable mention-able!
> The 2nd time they were in brine for 8 hrs before going in the smoker, short pieces of skewer sticks were used to keep them open (whole fish), they were smoked for 1 1/2 hrs with hickory pellets and they were delicious.   No Blue Ribbon yet, but I'm working on it.
> 
> The brine was: 1/2 gal H20, 1/2 cup table sugar, 1/2 cup brown sugar, 1/2 cup salt, 2 Tbsp garlic powder, and 3 Tbsp Lemon juice.    After 8 hrs soaking, rinse very well, pat dry and place in smoker.   I was surprised at how moist and flavorful they were.   I will add some Cajun Spices to the next batch just for a little zip.
> 
> The trout came from Montauk - if you are familiar with the place.   Last week majority of my catch were 1-2 lb each on #12 olive woolly bugger, with bling.


In other words, in spite of the temp variations the smoked trout came out ok?  Thanks for the tips on smoking fish eventually I would like to try that.  I am familiar with Montauk, beautiful stream but somewhat crowded at times.  Sounds like you are a fly fisherman and enjoying your "youth", good for you.  Haven't fished Montauk in 18 years. 

Planning on betting a Woodwind with the sidekick in the next few weeks, I'm encouraged by your comments regarding Camp Chef's great customer service.


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## Retread68

Humo - I've been going to Montauk for ohhh.... 60 yrs.  It is important to enjoy every day!  I will be at Bennett Spring in a couple weeks.  Montauk suffered a 500 yr flood 2 yrs ago and with that a lot of stream change.  MO DNR stepped up and made tremendous repairs, which they normally do not perform since it is designated "natural area".   Yes, fly fishing is the game for me.   Attendance numbers have been on the decline since the early 70s, probably due to costs, reduced keep #s, and reduced size.  For the last couple months the fish have been larger.

Camp Chef has gone beyond all expectations trying to corral the temp swings.  They replaced the controller and thermometer; then they replaced the entire hopper assembly, w/controller, thermometer, and 2 meat thermometers.  This replacement resulted in a more acceptable temp range.  Not wonderful, but acceptable and I believe they have done everything possible to satisfy.  Dixie K at CC customer service is one of a kind - a great person.

Best of luck to you with hunting trout and cooking them!


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## Humo18

Retread68 said:


> Humo - I've been going to Montauk for ohhh.... 60 yrs.  It is important to enjoy every day!  I will be at Bennett Spring in a couple weeks.  Montauk suffered a 500 yr flood 2 yrs ago and with that a lot of stream change.  MO DNR stepped up and made tremendous repairs, which they normally do not perform since it is designated "natural area".   Yes, fly fishing is the game for me.   Attendance numbers have been on the decline since the early 70s, probably due to costs, reduced keep #s, and reduced size.  For the last couple months the fish have been larger.
> 
> Camp Chef has gone beyond all expectations trying to corral the temp swings.  They replaced the controller and thermometer; then they replaced the entire hopper assembly, w/controller, thermometer, and 2 meat thermometers.  This replacement resulted in a more acceptable temp range.  Not wonderful, but acceptable and I believe they have done everything possible to satisfy.  Dixie K at CC customer service is one of a kind - a great person.
> 
> Best of luck to you with hunting trout and cooking them!


I'm starting to believe that indeed a PID controller is overkill, not 100% sure yet but I will probably go with Camp Chef.  Oh by the way, you don't sound like you are ready for the old folks home, keep enjoying life fishing and using your smoker!


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## drno_1

anglerman said:


> This would be my suggestion
> 
> https://smokedaddyinc.com/product/pellet-pro-exclusive-pid-controller-pellet-grill-upgrade/
> 
> Although I’d call the company to find out for sure if it fits and what it involves


thanks for the link!  now i have to research the Pellet Pros - they look like they are good and well priced as well.


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## indaswamp

johnmeyer said:


> However, IMHO, such a controller is complete overkill for most cooking applications because food isn't that sensitive to 20-30 degree over/under shoots. The set point definitely needs to be accurate (i.e., the average temperature), but small variations don't matter much.
> 
> There are exceptions to this, and sous vide is the most obvious example. That method of cooking relies on the water bath being at the precise temperature, and at not changing at all. A PID controller is mandatory.


Smoking Sausage being one of the exceptions. 20-30 degrees over and you risk fat out in the links.


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## jaxrmrjmr

The brilliant part of a PID controller is that it figures itself out no matter what situation it is in.  It doesn't have just one setting like a piece of metal.  Let's say that you are smoking in 85° weather and your "metal bending" heat indicator cuts your system on and off just perfectly.  Would that same "metal bending" heat indicator work the same if the outside temp was 40°? Probably not.  It would probably lag in heating up (because of the difference between smoker temp and outside air temp and then over shoot).  Use what works for you.


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## Humo18

retread68, back in Sept you were going to call SmokeDaddy regarding their $180 PID controller.  What came of that and did you buy one for the Camp Chef.


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## Retread68

Humo18/et al - Yes sir, I did purchase SmokeDaddy's PID controller.   Since I could not confirm the specs of the Camp Chef OEM components (nor could Camp Chef rep), I purchased the "Complete Upgrade Kit", retail $249.99 because the controller has some specific requirements pertaining to the auger motor.   As it turned out, the Fan Motor is identical to the OEM motor, but the Auger Motor is definitely larger than the OEM.  Conversion was straight forward, unless you don't know the difference in a phillips screwdriver and a socket wrench.   I'm still not sure what difference a 9 hole pot vs a 7 hole pot makes, but it has a bottom in it, so the ash cleanout trap door no longer serves a purpose.  For those not familiar with the Camp Chef, the OEM burn pot has no bottom and a sliding "trap door" serves as the bottom, making it easy to dump the ash after use.

Once conversion was made it was time to test it so a 4 1/2 lb beef brisket was used along with Camp Chef brand pellets.  After 3 1/2 hrs, I was miffed.  Temp swings were better than with the OEM controller, the CC replacement controller, and the CC replacement pellet bin/auger/controller/ everything except the barrel.  Yes - Camp Chef replaced everything except the barrel, grates, and wheels !    How is that for customer service ???!!!   Sorry .... back to the PID controller.  Of course it did not take much to improve temp control when the best OEM /replacement OEM equipment produced a +50/-45 temp swings.  Unfortunately the SD PID gave +28/-21 temp swings which is far from advertised +/-10 degree swings.

Dennis was a bit miffed also and suggested propping the lid open some to see if that would help settle things down.   Doing so seemed like setting the house HVAC controller to 76 then opening the front door to keep the inside temps below 96 to me, but ok; I tried it.   No help, in fact the temp swings became unpredictable.

Mean time, Rural King Farm Supply has a sale on Lumber Jack brand pellets @ $7.25/20 lb - so I stock up and decide I want to smoke some ribs using LJ Char/Hickory pellets.  Hoping that the ribs would not just be totally screwed due to temp swings, on they went.   Watching with great interest in expectation of calling Dennis again to give him the WTH speech, a transformation came over the little Camp Chef smoker.   The controller fairy was making the temps hang within +/- 5 degrees F.  During the 6 hr cooking process the SID controller performed exactly as advertised !!  After 4  more times in the past 6 weeks or so, it continues to maintain +/- 6 degrees F using LJ pellets.   Not so with Camp Chef pellets.

Dennis confirmed that pellets are not all equal, he was/is aware some burn hotter and he was working on new firmware so his PID controller could better handle the hotter burning pellets.  I need to talk to him again and determine if that firmware is now available.   Dennis is a man of few words, but he delivers as promised.


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## anglerman

Retread68 said:


> Humo18/et al - Yes sir, I did purchase SmokeDaddy's PID controller.   Since I could not confirm the specs of the Camp Chef OEM components (nor could Camp Chef rep), I purchased the "Complete Upgrade Kit", retail $249.99 because the controller has some specific requirements pertaining to the auger motor.   As it turned out, the Fan Motor is identical to the OEM motor, but the Auger Motor is definitely larger than the OEM.  Conversion was straight forward, unless you don't know the difference in a phillips screwdriver and a socket wrench.   I'm still not sure what difference a 9 hole pot vs a 7 hole pot makes, but it has a bottom in it, so the ash cleanout trap door no longer serves a purpose.  For those not familiar with the Camp Chef, the OEM burn pot has no bottom and a sliding "trap door" serves as the bottom, making it easy to dump the ash after use.
> 
> Once conversion was made it was time to test it so a 4 1/2 lb beef brisket was used along with Camp Chef brand pellets.  After 3 1/2 hrs, I was miffed.  Temp swings were better than with the OEM controller, the CC replacement controller, and the CC replacement pellet bin/auger/controller/ everything except the barrel.  Yes - Camp Chef replaced everything except the barrel, grates, and wheels !    How is that for customer service ???!!!   Sorry .... back to the PID controller.  Of course it did not take much to improve temp control when the best OEM /replacement OEM equipment produced a +50/-45 temp swings.  Unfortunately the SD PID gave +28/-21 temp swings which is far from advertised +/-10 degree swings.
> 
> Dennis was a bit miffed also and suggested propping the lid open some to see if that would help settle things down.   Doing so seemed like setting the house HVAC controller to 76 then opening the front door to keep the inside temps below 96 to me, but ok; I tried it.   No help, in fact the temp swings became unpredictable.
> 
> Mean time, Rural King Farm Supply has a sale on Lumber Jack brand pellets @ $7.25/20 lb - so I stock up and decide I want to smoke some ribs using LJ Char/Hickory pellets.  Hoping that the ribs would not just be totally screwed due to temp swings, on they went.   Watching with great interest in expectation of calling Dennis again to give him the WTH speech, a transformation came over the little Camp Chef smoker.   The controller fairy was making the temps hang within +/- 5 degrees F.  During the 6 hr cooking process the SID controller performed exactly as advertised !!  After 4  more times in the past 6 weeks or so, it continues to maintain +/- 6 degrees F using LJ pellets.   Not so with Camp Chef pellets.
> 
> Dennis confirmed that pellets are not all equal, he was/is aware some burn hotter and he was working on new firmware so his PID controller could better handle the hotter burning pellets.  I need to talk to him again and determine if that firmware is now available.   Dennis is a man of few words, but he delivers as promised.



Glad to hear the pellet pro started working better for you.


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## Humo18

Great feedback, retread! It's amazing that the change in brand of pellets made such a positive difference. I just got a Woodwind SG with SearBox but have not had a chance to fire it up (it's killing me!).
At any rate, you would think Camp Chef can profit from your comprehensive evaluation and change something in their pellet mfg. to improve the performance of their products.
Happy you are satisfied with your purchase, keep on smoking!!

P.S. Can you explain the difference between a phillips screwdriver and a socket wrench??:rolleyes:


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## Retread68

Errahhh ... did I say socket wrench?  I meant pocket wrench .... you know that thang over thar next to the board stretcher!  I'm still trying to figure out who Phillip is anyway!
Since using a pellet smoker is new to me, I am amazed at the performance difference in pellet brands.  There are some mighty fine folks at Camp Chef and they bent over backwards trying to make things right.  After seeing temp swings out of the ordinary using the PID controller & Camp Chef pellets vs perfect performance using Lumber Jack pellets, it makes me wonder if the Camp Chef controller would perform as desired using the LJ pellets.   I'm almost afraid to find out that a $7.25 bag of pellets would have fixed the problem!   Anything is possible though I reckon.

Congrats on the Woodwind SG.   It has the same pellet box w/controller that CC sent me in their last ditch effort to fix the problem.  If you use some fresh Lumber Jack pellets when you get to fire it up, let me know how it performs.


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## Humo18

With the free bag of pellets and some that I bought I now have about 100 lbs of CC pellets so that should last me a while. but I am going to eventually try the LumberJack pellets and let you know.  But glad you were able to fix your problem.


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## anglerman

Humo18 said:


> With the free bag of pellets and some that I bought I now have about 100 lbs of CC pellets so that should last me a while. but I am going to eventually try the LumberJack pellets and let you know.  But glad you were able to fix your problem.


Lumberjack have been working great in my pellet pro.


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## Humo18

Thanks, seems like Lumberjack is more expensive, but if better then it' worth it.  I guess you can search for sale prices


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## drno_1

anglerman said:


> Lumberjack have been working great in my pellet pro.



How do you like your Pellet Pro?  i don't see too many reviews on that brand, although they look to be upper middle tiered pellet grills?


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## anglerman

drno_1 said:


> How do you like your Pellet Pro?  i don't see too many reviews on that brand, although they look to be upper middle tiered pellet grills?


I don’t have their smoker housing, I bought their complete hopper assembly and installed it on an old propane vertical smoker. But it’s been great for years only had to replace the temp probe.


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## Humo18

Retread, pocket, socket, rocket wrench I figure all the same!!


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## Adonai3377

anglerman said:


> I don’t have their smoker housing, I bought their complete hopper assembly and installed it on an old propane vertical smoker. But it’s been great for years only had to replace the temp probe.


First time here and obviously way behind on the timing, but I was wondering which propane vertical smoker you have?  I have the cheap master forge vertical propane and was thinking of putting the pellet pro on it since it's pretty much apiece of junk any other way


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## Humo18

FYI, our Wentzville Missouri Rural King has Lumber Jack pellets for $9, 20 pounds.  That seems like a bargain??


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## dubob

I'll say.  Here the 20# bags go for $13 at one store and $14 at another.


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## Humo18

dubob, I'll have to get some of those LJ pellets.  The Camp Chef pellets go for $19.99; if the LJ pellets workout OK that's the way to go.


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## dubob

I've only been a pellet burner for about 3 weeks now, but the LJ Comp Blend MHC pellets give more smoke flavor than the first Pit Boss Hickory bag I bought at Wally World for $8.88.  I've burned up about 36/37 lbs of pellets so far.  I'll have to open my third bag this week when I do my first pulled pork and a pastrami brisket from a store bought corned beef brisket.  Life is good and the pellet grill food is even better.


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## gary sampson

Retread68 said:


> Forum Newbee here, but old enough to be well into medicare!  A couple months ago I made a midlife change (anyone can hope) and purchased a Camp Chef PG24DLX smoker after reviewing mindless numbers of various brand reviews, etc.   After using the smoker 3 times I contacted customer service regarding temp swings (as indicated on the controller and verified with independent accurate thermometer inserted into the smoke chamber, ie: cooking area).
> The set pt was 300, for 3 hrs temps continuously swung from 205 to 405.  After 3 hrs the set pt was adjusted to 250. For the next 1 hr temps swung between 190 to 342.   After 4 hrs the temp went to 525 and I shut the thing down.
> Not wanting to complain 1/2 cocked, I decided to put a couple nice racks of rib on to smoke for 5 hrs.  Long story short, the smoker performed exactly as previously except after 4 hrs 10 min the controller threw an error code and shut itself off.
> 
> I contacted Camp Chef customer service with a lengthy log of actual temps achieved and asked for help.  They immediately sent a new thermometer and a new controller and explained they had not seen one of their controller shut itself off.   I have one!   Camp Chef customer service is EXCELLENT !
> 
> Unfortunately Camp Chef's Chinese made controllers aren't representative of the fine people that work at the company.  With the new thermometer and controller installed I smoked 4 trout for 90 minutes at a temp set pt of 225 last night.  Ahhh true to it's fine design/build quality, the controller maintained a consistent temperature between 160 and 362 with verified temps using an independent thermometer in the cooking area indicating true temps to be approx 10-35 degrees warmer.
> 
> 
> 
> Retread68 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forum Newbee here, but old enough to be well into medicare!  A couple months ago I made a midlife change (anyone can hope) and purchased a Camp Chef PG24DLX smoker after reviewing mindless numbers of various brand reviews, etc.   After using the smoker 3 times I contacted customer service regarding temp swings (as indicated on the controller and verified with independent accurate thermometer inserted into the smoke chamber, ie: cooking area).
> The set pt was 300, for 3 hrs temps continuously swung from 205 to 405.  After 3 hrs the set pt was adjusted to 250. For the next 1 hr temps swung between 190 to 342.   After 4 hrs the temp went to 525 and I shut the thing down.
> Not wanting to complain 1/2 cocked, I decided to put a couple nice racks of rib on to smoke for 5 hrs.  Long story short, the smoker performed exactly as previously except after 4 hrs 10 min the controller threw an error code and shut itself off.
> 
> I contacted Camp Chef customer service with a lengthy log of actual temps achieved and asked for help.  They immediately sent a new thermometer and a new controller and explained they had not seen one of their controller shut itself off.   I have one!   Camp Chef customer service is EXCELLENT !
> 
> Unfortunately Camp Chef's Chinese made controllers aren't representative of the fine people that work at the company.  With the new thermometer and controller installed I smoked 4 trout for 90 minutes at a temp set pt of 225 last night.  Ahhh true to it's fine design/build quality, the controller maintained a consistent temperature between 160 and 362 with verified temps using an independent thermometer in the cooking area indicating true temps to be approx 10-35 degrees warmer.
> 
> My question to anyone/everyone is:  Should I invest in a new after-market PID controller, go back to plain grilling on the gas grill and buy someone else's smoked BBQ, dig out the 45 yrs old cast aluminum hibachi, or just go on and check into the local old folks home and dream about BBQ ?    Obviously a different Chinese controller mfg'd for Camp Chef has little chance of providing acceptable results, so I just won't even throw that option out there.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others.    Thank you.
> Sorry for the long venting post.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't want a Chinese controller, don't get a PID. Maybe some controllers are built elsewhere, but the PID (the brain) will certainly made in China.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others.    Thank you.
> Sorry for the long venting post.
Click to expand...


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## Humo18

Thanks for your service airman! Enjoy your smoker and good food.


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## dubob

gary sampson said:


> If you don't want a Chinese controller, don't get a PID. Maybe some controllers are built elsewhere, but the PID (the brain) will certainly made in China.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions, or snide remarks will be accepted - some appreciated more than others. Thank you.
> Sorry for the long venting post.


I think I'm going to disagree with you on that statement Gary; respectfully of course.  I have been using an Auber Instruments WSD-1203CPH PID Controller on my Bradley 4-rack electric smoker for about 4 years now.  I just checked the unit and there isn't a single sticker anywhere on the unit that says 'Made in China.'  I talked with the company last week about a possible PID Controller replacement for my CC Woodwind and they don't sell one direct but referred me to Savannah Stoker who does make a controller for my Woodwind that includes the PID function from Auber Instruments.  On the Auber Instruments website there is this: 



			
				About Auber Instruments said:
			
		

> Auber Instruments was founded in 2006. *It manufactures and sells controllers and measurement instruments for industry and home use.*



So my disagreement is that not ALL PID Controllers come from China.  I can't speak for the SmokeDaddy unit because I don't know where they get their PID function from.


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## bregent

The belief that the problem with CC is that the controller is manufactured in China is completely misguided. The controllers work exactly as designed. They produce a duty cycle for the auger that changes based on whether the measured temp is above or below the setpoint. The problem is that this is a poorly DESIGNED controller. Doesn't matter if it was built in the US, Germany or China. The simple algorithm it uses does not work to maintain stable temps under some circumstances. My CC had wild temp swings, yet the controller moved the auger for the correct number of seconds that it was designed to do. So of course, changing the controller with another of the same design did not resolve it. I've worked with several folks online who've had the same issue. If the timed duty cycle is within spec, the problem is not due to a poorly manufactured controller.


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## gary sampson

dubob said:


> I think I'm going to disagree with you on that statement Gary; respectfully of course.  I have been using an Auber Instruments WSD-1203CPH PID Controller on my Bradley 4-rack electric smoker for about 4 years now.  I just checked the unit and there isn't a single sticker anywhere on the unit that says 'Made in China.'  I talked with the company last week about a possible PID Controller replacement for my CC Woodwind and they don't sell one direct but referred me to Savannah Stoker who does make a controller for my Woodwind that includes the PID function from Auber Instruments.  On the Auber Instruments website there is this:
> 
> So my disagreement is that not ALL PID Controllers come from China.  I can't speak for the SmokeDaddy unit because I don't know where they get their PID function from.


I have built a great many temp controllers for smokers, sous vide rigs, heat / cool brewing units, refrigeration units, what have you and I can assure you that I have never seen an actual PID unit that wasn't built in China. Maybe the controller was built locally, but not the basic electronics. The average PID unit sells for $25 - $40. and an SSR is less than $15. You just can't build that stuff in North America for that. Not all things have stickers.


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## SlowmotionQue

edited


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## Humo18

The Savannah Stoker PID controller sells for $189 plus $15 for the Camp Chef adapter I would need for my smoker. Then shipping and possibly taxes.  Not sure I want to spend over $204 for a PID controller until I have a chance to play a little longer with my new CC Woodwind.  If I can get good tasting and properly smoked foods with what I have, I'm OK with temp swings.


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## dubob

I somewhat agree with that.  I just spent over $1200 for the grill & accessories.  The first long smoke projects have turned out well.  If they continue to do so, a PID controller wouldn't be needed.  I do want the WIFI upgrade that is coming out direct from CC in the next 6 to 8 months.  I am already on their waiting list to be called as soon as its available.


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