# Cold Smoking vs. Hot Smoking Fish



## smoking4fun (Apr 3, 2018)

I need some help...I've smoked some salmon and steelhead previously - using a 4:1 sugar:salt dry brine and then smoking starting at 100* for an hour, and slowly bumping it up to 200* until IT was 145* (I think).  So I've done this method a couple times and it turned out OK, but I want to try other brines/smokes to figure out what my wife likes best.  So, my questions are:

1) Other than heat, what is the biggest difference between cold-smoking and hot-smoking fish?  Does it change the "softness" of the fish?    
2) If I buy a fresh unfrozen filet (which may have previously been frozen, but assume I don't know) - can I just cold smoke, or do I need to be concerned about parasites...and if I am concerned about parasites, what I can I do to kill them without going through a multi-day freeze?  
3)  For ALL cold-smoking of fish, do I need to use cure #1 whether I use a dry brine or wet brine?  Can I cold-smoke fish without cure #1?

I've done plenty of searching, but most posts are just saying the process they smoked their fish - but I haven't seen anything on the "what not to do" when cold/hot smoking fish.


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## BandCollector (Apr 3, 2018)

Put all your concerns aside regarding parasites, softness, and cure #1 and do it this way. . . . You won't be disappointed.

Smoked Salmon


Smoked salmon is really easy to do if you keep it simple.

Dry cure mix:

2 Cups                Dark Brown Sugar
½ Cup                 Kosher Salt
1 Tablespoon      Black Pepper
2 Tablespoons    Granulated Garlic        

Thoroughly cover both surfaces and sides of the salmon with the cure. Place in the refrigerator covered with plastic wrap overnight.

Next day pour off liquid and rinse the rest of the cure off the salmon.  Pat the pieces dry with paper towels.  Rack the Salmon pieces for at least 2 hours to form a beautiful Pellicle.  A small fan blowing over the racked pieces will help with this process.

Smoke for 2 hours at 150˚
During the last half hour glaze with Apricot Jam which has been melted in the microwave.  Honey will do as well.

Allow to cool, vacuum pack, and freeze for future use.

It's best sliced very thin at an angle so you get decent sized slices.

I hope this helps,

 John


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## smoking4fun (Apr 3, 2018)

BandCollector said:


> Put all your concerns aside regarding parasites, softness, and cure #1 and do it this way. . . . You won't be disappointed.
> 
> Next day pour off liquid and rinse the rest of the cure off the salmon.  Pat the pieces dry with paper towels.  Rack the Salmon pieces for at least 2 hours to form a beautiful Pellicle.  A small fan blowing over the racked pieces will help with this process.


While I appreciate that you provided your method, my biggest concerns are about parasites (even though I also asked differences between hot/cold smoking).  You said put aside my concerns about parasites but you don't explain why this method would eliminate my concerns about the parasites.  Can you explain how/why your method would eliminate my concerns about parasites, especially since it sounds like you're setting raw fish out on a counter for a couple hours under a fan?  THAT is why I'm concerned - because if your method doesn't kill the parasites, leaving the fish out on the counter for a couple hours seems like it would actually make the parasite problem worse.


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## daveomak (Apr 3, 2018)

Follow bbally's recipe for lox....  
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/making-lox-a-picture-guide.87043/


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## BandCollector (Apr 3, 2018)

If you are cooking fish, you need not worry. According to FDA, you are 100% safe if the fish reached an internal temperature of 140F. Surviving the human intestinal track isn’t easy and requires that anisakis and tapeworm be at full strength. So, if you “only” raise the internal temperature to 120F, a parasite might survive (if he’s positioned in the middle of the fish fillet), but will be so weak that it will most likely die shortly after reaching your stomach.

150˚ for two hours will do the trick.  But check the internal temperature with a quick read thermometer just to be safe.


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## SonnyE (Apr 3, 2018)

Hold on, the cavalry will be along.
I've smoked fish most of my life. So far, I'm still alive.
How you smoke your salmon has a lot to do with what you want on the outcome.
I'm finally getting away from over-smoked Salmon. Right now I'm doing a lot of cold smoking, then Vacuum package with a brush of lemon juice and a sprinkle of dried dill weed, then Sous Vide it for eating.
Or Sous Vide and use it in Salmon dip. Which works fine for me because it lasts over days of enjoyment.

My last batch run was using Bear Carver's final Salmon recipe. And it is some of the best ever! My only change is to try and adjust the saltiness down a little. But after it ages a tiny bit in the freezer, everything mellows and melds together even better.

As long as you hit the temperature marks, everything will be fine.
I use "Plastic Salmon". Flash frozen farm raised Salmon center cuts. It's just all together easier, and far more consistent than "fresh", which isn't always.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 3, 2018)

BandCollector said:


> Put all your concerns aside regarding parasites, softness, and cure #1 and do it this way. . . . You won't be disappointed.
> 
> Smoked Salmon
> 
> ...


At 150F is not cold smoking (which is what the OP wanted clarifications about).


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 3, 2018)

Difference between cold smoked and hot smoked is ...the heat. 

Which changes everything: texture, taste. Cold smoked salmon is very different than hot smoked. An exagerated comparison would be jerky vs roast. 

Have you had cold smoked fish before?. Most people love it. But some don't (two in my family).

As for parasites - it's not impossible. Freezing before or after smoking lessens your worries.

Cure? Some people use it. Most recipes i've seen here don't use cure (bbaly's being the notable exception).


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## SonnyE (Apr 4, 2018)

smoking4fun said:


> While I appreciate that you provided your method, my biggest concerns are about parasites (even though I also asked differences between hot/cold smoking).  You said put aside my concerns about parasites but you don't explain why this method would eliminate my concerns about the parasites.  Can you explain how/why your method would eliminate my concerns about parasites, especially since it sounds like you're setting raw fish out on a counter for a couple hours under a fan?  THAT is why I'm concerned - because if your method doesn't kill the parasites, leaving the fish out on the counter for a couple hours seems like it would actually make the parasite problem worse.



1. The smoke is really hard to take. Stick you head in there and you'll see. It'll gag a maggot, let alone poison a parasite.
2. Then there is the temperature part. Take a bath in 145° water. It'll wilt your.... toenails.

Do you want to live till you die? ;) 
Or worry yourself to death? :eek:
Because you sound like you want to worry to death. In that case, there just may not be enough anybody can say to aleve your fears, and maybe smoking isn't for you.
It's OK, it isn't for a lot of folks. Some like Bar-B-Que, others don't. I'm the only one in my home that likes smoked meats. But then, I'm the only one in my home likely to be a survivor, too.
Oh, don't take me wrong, I wouldn't eat my dog. But I'd eat somebody that wanted to eat my dog. After a through cooking, of course.
You could buy smoked Salmon. Maybe it would ease your mind. It would not ease mine.
But then, I've decided to live till I die.... ;)


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## smoking4fun (Apr 4, 2018)

SonnyE said:


> 1. The smoke is really hard to take. Stick you head in there and you'll see. It'll gag a maggot, let alone poison a parasite.
> 2. Then there is the temperature part. Take a bath in 145° water. It'll wilt your.... toenails.
> 
> Do you want to live till you die? ;)
> ...


That sure is a pretty sparky answer to a reasonable question...and sorry if I don't just take someone's word on a message board that says "just do it exactly like me and you have nothing to worry about." Ya know, if you don't want to help, you can simply just move on.


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## SonnyE (Apr 4, 2018)

smoking4fun said:


> That sure is a pretty sparky answer to a reasonable question...and sorry if I don't just take someone's word on a message board that says "just do it exactly like me and you have nothing to worry about." Ya know, if you don't want to help, you can simply just move on.



Yep, it's about as subtle as a boot. And honest.
No doubt you will find your way. But it may not be easy, and it may not be with the help of some who could have.
Don't worry to death too fast now, Ya hear. Nobody said the offered advice was Gospel. 
Just a lot of experience. I happen to be 68, been smoking meat and fish for... oh around 50 years now, and damn, I'm still alive. We wanted to help, but you want to doubt what we try to share with you.
Your way will be paved with stones. Of your own doing.
Out.


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## BandCollector (Apr 4, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> Difference between cold smoked and hot smoked is ...the heat.
> 
> Which changes everything: texture, taste. Cold smoked salmon is very different than hot smoked. An exagerated comparison would be jerky vs roast.
> 
> ...



I don't eat any fish raw.  Cold smoked or sushi.  

If I overstepped my boundaries by offering a safe hot smoked recipe for Salmon then pardon my concern.

And if the OP wants clarification on Cold Smoked Fish, well, you seem to know more about it than I.  Perhaps you could offer it to him.

Take Care,
John


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## smoking4fun (Apr 4, 2018)

SonnyE said:


> Yep, it's about as subtle as a boot. And honest.
> No doubt you will find your way. But it may not be easy, and it may not be with the help of some who could have.
> Don't worry to death too fast now, Ya hear. Nobody said the offered advice was Gospel.
> Just a lot of experience. I happen to be 68, been smoking meat and fish for... oh around 50 years now, and damn, I'm still alive. We wanted to help, but you want to doubt what we try to share with you.
> ...


There's a difference between being honest and being an ass...you were the latter.  Since you like honesty. The first response was a recipe - and I didn't ask for a recipe, I asked about food safety which is asked about all the time here. Besides, I asked about safe cold smoking and your response was just to hot smoke it. If that's what you consider to be "help", then feel free to not respond to my post next time.


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## smoking4fun (Apr 4, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Follow bbally's recipe for lox....
> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/making-lox-a-picture-guide.87043/


Thanks Dave. I had pulled up that thread when I was searching for my answer before I started this post, but the thread was old enough that the useful links you provided in that weren't working...so that's Why I asked separately instead of thread jacking that thread.


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## indaswamp (Apr 4, 2018)

No worries, done right, the salt kills any parasites in the fish. If you are concerned, I suggest going a little heavy on the salt to kill the parasites, then a long soak to lech out excess salt prior to cold smoking. Or, alternatively, just deep freeze the fish prior to cold smoking which kills the parasites.
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food-safety/article/smoked-salmon-and-parasites


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## indaswamp (Apr 4, 2018)

> Freeze before eating
> 
> If wild fish are to be eaten raw or lightly cooked, ensure that all parts, especially the thickest part, has been frozen for at least four days in a domestic freezer at -15C or colder. This will ensure that any undetected anisakis larvae are killed.
> 
> ...


https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/homehygiene/Pages/salmon-parasite-warning.aspx


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## indaswamp (Apr 4, 2018)

And if you want the research, here ya go:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...mbined_treatment_with_chlorine_and_ultrasound


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## daveomak (Apr 4, 2018)

S4F, morning...  Sorry about the links that were lost during the upgrade...
Do you want to eat the fish "raw" ... "chemically cooked"  with salt and cure....    Were you going to cook it after cold smoking....  I have some ideas if I know where you want to go....


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## daveomak (Apr 4, 2018)

Some pathogens can escape death...  Beef jerky is an example..  Slowly dehydrating the meat "can" lead to a "suspended animation" situation of the pathogens...   only to become reactivated in the gut where it is warm and moist....

Below is a table of pasteurization time and temperatures for fish products...   Botulism Type B is difficult to kill..  Note the high temperature and time required...   THEREFORE I highly recommend using cure#1 when smoking or even cooking salmon or other fish products where there is a "chance" of a low oxygen environment...  Vac bag, smokehouse, in your gut, etc...  

There is "evidence" consuming some foods or antacids can increase the pH of the gut, (making it more alkaline), to the point the acidity is no longer effective in killing certain pathogens...












*Temperature range for growth of some pathogens*......








Well, that's enough for now...  

Let me know what your final plan is for the fish...   We will find a solution....  

Dave

..


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## gmc2003 (Apr 4, 2018)

smoking4fun said:


> I need some help...So, my questions are:
> 
> 1) Other than heat, what is the biggest difference between cold-smoking and hot-smoking fish?  Does it change the "softness" of the fish?   Texture, cold smoking will give more of a creamy texture(think lox) while hot smoking usually gives the fish a flaky texture.
> 
> ...



Hope this helps, It's only what I do and know, and I'm by no means an expert.
My thoughts are in red. 
Chris


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 4, 2018)

gmc2003 said:


> Hope this helps, It's only what I do and know, and I'm by no means an expert.
> My thoughts are in red.
> Chris


You are saying that all fish sold as "fresh" in supermarkets was previously frozen (non local fish)?


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## gmc2003 (Apr 4, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> You are saying that all fish sold as "fresh" in supermarkets was previously frozen (non local fish)?



I'm not saying all, but most of it has been frozen. Along the coasts you can probably still get fresh off the boat caught fish, but most of the fish in super market's have been frozen. I believe it's illegal to sell sushi in the US that hasn't been previously frozen. Again I'm not an expert only going by what I've read and learned over the years.


Chris


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 4, 2018)

I know there are unscrupulous retailers out there but i doubt the industry commonly labels thawed fish frozen at sea as "fresh".

Costco has been in the news a lot about customers finding live worm in their fish. That couldnt have been frozen.

Don't get me wrong, i have no problem with frozen at sea...i buy all the time.


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## gmc2003 (Apr 4, 2018)

Atomic, this is a good discussion. That I can learn something from - thanks. Let me clarify my thoughts. If the fish was caught by a commercial fishing boat then yes I believe it has to be frozen. If it was farm raised then it doesn't have to be frozen. However farm raised fish has a much shorter shelf life then previously frozen, and with the advancement of flash freezing technology today there isn't any real loss of nutrients in frozen fish. 

Chris


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 4, 2018)

One of the costco stories i was referring to was about wild cod (with worm inside).

I also found live worms in halibut - i live nowhere near the ocean.

I am not concerned about loss of nutrients in fish frozen at sea. I am concerned with thawed fish sold as fresh that folks might freeze again at home - in which case there will be a loss of quality and potentially food safety issues.


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## gmc2003 (Apr 4, 2018)

Haven't heard about Costco, that would turn me off in a heartbeat, and I guess I'll consider myself lucky as I haven't found any worms in the fish we've bought. Agree with the refreezing and quality. However we only buy fish that will be cooked that day. Halibut is farm raised in Canada so it may indeed be fresh. 

Chris


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## daveomak (Apr 4, 2018)

Some wild caught Alaska Salmon is flown direct to the market....  not frozen...


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## Bearcarver (Apr 4, 2018)

smoking4fun said:


> I need some help...I've smoked some salmon and steelhead previously - using a 4:1 sugar:salt dry brine and then smoking starting at 100* for an hour, and slowly bumping it up to 200* until IT was 145* (I think).  So I've done this method a couple times and it turned out OK, but I want to try other brines/smokes to figure out what my wife likes best.  So, my questions are:
> 
> 
> *2) If I buy a fresh unfrozen filet (which may have previously been frozen, but assume I don't know) - can I just cold smoke, or do I need to be concerned about parasites...and if I am concerned about parasites, what I can I do to kill them without going through a multi-day freeze?  *
> I've done plenty of searching, but most posts are just saying the process they smoked their fish - but I haven't seen anything on the "what not to do" when cold/hot smoking fish.





*This should answer your #2 Question:*
All living organisms, including fish, can have parasites. Parasites are a natural occurrence, not contamination. They are as common in fish as insects are in fruits and vegetables. Parasites do not present a health concern in thoroughly cooked fish.

Parasites become a concern when consumers eat raw or lightly preserved fish such as sashimi, sushi, ceviche, and gravlax. When preparing these products, use commercially frozen fish. Alternatively, freeze the fish to an internal temperature of -4°F for at least 7 days to kill any parasites that may be present. Home freezers are usually between 0°F and 10°F and may not be cold enough to kill the parasites.

Fish is also safe to eat after it is cooked to an internal temperature of 145°F for 15 seconds. Normal cooking procedures generally exceed this temperature.

Link to The Rest of the *Seafood Health Facts:*
https://www.seafoodhealthfacts.org/...and-consumers/seafood-safety-topics/parasites


Bear


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## smoking4fun (Apr 4, 2018)

atomicsmoke said:


> One of the costco stories i was referring to was about wild cod (with worm inside).
> 
> I also found live worms in halibut - i live nowhere near the ocean.
> 
> I am not concerned about loss of nutrients in fish frozen at sea. I am concerned with thawed fish sold as fresh that folks might freeze again at home - in which case there will be a loss of quality and potentially food safety issues.


I can understand the loss of quality if you re-freeze the fish...but what would be the potential food safety issues that you would be concerned about?  If the initial flash-freeze kills the parasites, then they shouldn't be an issue with thawing and re-freezing (right?), since any potential parasite should have been killed in the initial freeze...especially if you keep it in the original plastic sealed package (which I'm assuming it came in).


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 4, 2018)

smoking4fun said:


> I can understand the loss of quality if you re-freeze the fish...but what would be the potential food safety issues that you would be concerned about?  If the initial flash-freeze kills the parasites, then they shouldn't be an issue with thawing and re-freezing (right?), since any potential parasite should have been killed in the initial freeze...especially if you keep it in the original plastic sealed package (which I'm assuming it came in).


The safety concern appears when the thawed fish is kept at above fridge temps.


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