# Brine for ducks?



## meatstick

I have a few whole ducks that we shot this year. I plan to smoke them for Christmas. I have never brine anything before and was wondering what a good brine would be for ducks. Has anyone tried this with any luck? I smoked a couple last year and they we okay but I think if I brine them they could be better. Thanks


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## oberst

I have smoked dozens and dozens of ducks and geese.  The key to maximum success is having birds with good fatty skins.  You can smoke a thin duck but it's not as good.  The brine I use:

4 cups apple juice (I like the stuff without preservatives)

4 cups water

1/2 cup pure salt

1/3 cup orange juice

1/2 cup maple syrup

Cut the recipe in half if you only have a couple ducks or smaller ducks.  I heat 3 cups of water, stir in the salt and maple syrup to disolve, then add everything else cold and brine in the fridge or a cold garage.

I typically brine overnight, then set the birds out and dry them with paper towels and then let them sit another full hour, with a fan sometimes, to make sure they are dry

I'll smoke a bigger duck for 6.5 hours, starting at 120 degrees and moving that up to 150 degrees give or take.  If I'm going to eat the ducks when I'm done I'll run the heat higher to cook them as well (be sure not to over cook).  If I'm smoking a big batch and going to freeze them, then I'll still smoke 6.5 hours, less or more to taste, freeze them, and when ready to eat finish them in the over, like at 400 degrees for 10-15 minutes.  Do it that way and even a frozen duck turns out like it's just out of a hot smoker.  A properly smoked fatty mallard, teal, gadwal, etc. will be one of the best things you can ever eat.  Good luck!


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## oberst

goose 2.JPG



__ oberst
__ Dec 1, 2015






An example of what my finished ducks and goose chunks look like coming off the smoker per above.  This batch is done enough to eat now!


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## meatstick

Oberst said:


> I have smoked dozens and dozens of ducks and geese.  The key to maximum success is having birds with good fatty skins.  You can smoke a thin duck but it's not as good.  The brine I use:
> 
> 4 cups apple juice (I like the stuff without preservatives)
> 
> 4 cups water
> 
> 1/2 cup pure salt
> 
> 1/3 cup orange juice
> 
> 1/2 cup maple syrup
> 
> Cut the recipe in half if you only have a couple ducks or smaller ducks.  I heat 3 cups of water, stir in the salt and maple syrup to disolve, then add everything else cold and brine in the fridge or a cold garage.
> 
> I typically brine overnight, then set the birds out and dry them with paper towels and then let them sit another full hour, with a fan sometimes, to make sure they are dry
> 
> I'll smoke a bigger duck for 6.5 hours, starting at 120 degrees and moving that up to 150 degrees give or take.  If I'm going to eat the ducks when I'm done I'll run the heat higher to cook them as well (be sure not to over cook).  If I'm smoking a big batch and going to freeze them, then I'll still smoke 6.5 hours, less or more to taste, freeze them, and when ready to eat finish them in the over, like at 400 degrees for 10-15 minutes.  Do it that way and even a frozen duck turns out like it's just out of a hot smoker.  A properly smoked fatty mallard, teal, gadwal, etc. will be one of the best things you can ever eat.  Good luck!


Awesome!! Thank you for the info. I have a couple divers (whistler, blue bill) we shot that I want to try this on. Most of the divers that I have ever eaten have a fishy taste to them. Can't wait to give this a try and see how they turn out. Thanks again Oberst.


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## daveomak

I would add cure #1 to that recipe....  anything you smoke should have cure in it...  weigh the brine and the ducks...  add 1 tsp. per 5 pounds....


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## meatstick

DaveOmak said:


> I would add cure #1 to that recipe....  anything you smoke should have cure in it...  weigh the brine and the ducks...  add 1 tsp. per 5 pounds....


Dave, I'm new to brining. What is the purpose of adding the cure # 1 to the brine mixture?

Would the salt be considered the cure?

If not, would accent salt work as the curing salt?


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## oberst

Ill follow Dave's advice on this; adding cure gives an important layer of food safety in cases where something may not be cooked thoroughly.  I assume that's what Dave is referring to.  Dave is always looking out for practices that lead to food safety, and we are fortunate that he keeps a sharp eye out.


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## meatstick

Thanks Oberst... You are right it is nice having people like Dave. I just need to figure out if accent salt is the same. I know it's considered msg.


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## oberst

Accent wouldn't replace cure #1.


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## mtnlakeman

I've smoked a lot of ducks also with mixed success. Oberst I'm trying your brine as the orange and apple juice really sounds good.

I typically do a 1:1 sugar salt brine for 4hrs, then a 30 min heavy smudge cold smoke with cottonwood, then grill to medium,  and finally slice thin and make philly cheese steaks which in itself covers up the fishy taste.  

Accent is msg and is not cure. It is a flavor enhancer.

If you can't find cure #1 (sodium nitrite) Tenderquick is a salt, sugar and cure #1 mix. It's typicaly found in the grocery store next the salt in a blue paper bag.


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## daveomak

meatstick said:


> Thanks Oberst... You are right it is nice having people like Dave. I just need to figure out if accent salt is the same. I know it's considered msg.


MS, afternoon......    Cure #1 is salt and sodium nitrite..  6.25% nitrite...   It is NOT accent...   it is not MSG...     It's primary purpose is to kill botulism bacteria...  botulism will grow in a low oxygen environment...    It is highly recommended to add cure  #1 to meats going in the smoker...  It's impossible to detect botulism bacteria...  you can't smell it...  can't see it...  and it lives in the soil, in fish, on  root crops (dirt) etc.....   It's the deadliest pathogen known to man....


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## meatstick

Thanks guys. You have been very helpful.


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## meatstick

DaveOmak said:


> I would add cure #1 to that recipe....  anything you smoke should have cure in it...  weigh the brine and the ducks...  add 1 tsp. per 5 pounds....


DaveOmak, I just purchased cure # 1. I just add this to the brine and dissolve along with the other ingredients? Thanks again for all the information. 

I have smoked a few pork butts, ribs etc. I have never used the cure #1 for any of these. Should I or is it only necessary when brining? I also make summer sausage and snack sticks. I usually just buy commercial kits. I'm assuming they all have the cure already mixed in.


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## daveomak

meatstick said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would add cure #1 to that recipe....  anything you smoke should have cure in it...  weigh the brine and the ducks...  add 1 tsp. per 5 pounds....
> 
> 
> 
> DaveOmak, I just purchased cure # 1. I just add this to the brine and dissolve along with the other ingredients? Thanks again for all the information.
> 
> I have smoked a few pork butts, ribs etc. I have never used the cure #1 for any of these. Should I or is it only necessary when brining? I also make summer sausage and snack sticks. I usually just buy commercial kits. I'm assuming they all have the cure already mixed in.
Click to expand...

If your smoker is above 200 deg. F, botulism bacteria are supposed to die at 180 ish... and therefore cannot produce spores...   and stuff should be safe to eat...  If spores are produced, the temp to kill those spores is around 240-250 F... 

Soooo, under "normal" BBQ Grilling conditions, cure #1 is not necessary... 

Generally speaking, folks smoke meats etc. at temps of 60 to 140 ish deg. F....   then crank up the temp to finish the cook....   Cure #1 would be "somewhat" mandatory under those conditions if you wanted a 100% safety margin...  Folks will rebut with, "I've smoked meats for years and never got botulism"...   you only need to contract it once..

Words become so interchangeable that we lose perspective to their meaning...

As a side note...   It is documented that botulism was contracted from a baked potato that was foil wrapped... left in a warming pan for a few hours...  then eaten...  

Now, I'm guessing the spud was cooked at 350-450 deg. F...  Since it's basically impossible to get water above 212 deg. F, unless it's under pressure, the spud's interior did NOT get above 212 due to the moisture in it...  Therefore, during the process, wrap the spud in foil.. have it sitting around in the kitchen before going in the oven...  have the oven overloaded with spuds so the temperature rise was slow, botulism and the spores "could" grow under the "just right" conditions...  once the spud got to 180 ish, the bacteria died leaving the spores to create the next generation of bacteria....  Since the moisture held the interior temperature, of the spud, to something like 212, the spores survived...   Then when the spud sat for hours at somewhat ideal temperature for botulism growth, in a warm moist environment, the bacteria grew again and some poor soul got botulism poisoning...  

Now, that is a very rare example but it shows the parameters where stuff can happen....  

Sooooo, there are no definitive answers to most questions, as I see it, EXCEPT.... Why take a chance now that you have a "fair" understanding of what you are up against..   If you think you are pushing the boundaries, raise the temperature of your cooking device...  make sure there is adequate oxygen and the meat etc. will not be subject to a low oxygen environment.. (in a vacuum bag left on the kitchen counter), add cure #1 to the product.....   maybe ignore all the data and do whatever suits your fancy...

I find it very refreshing folks want to learn about this stuff..  some don't... that's expected...   I didn't know squat when I got on this forum...  Some wonderful members were pushing food safety...   I jumped on the wagon thinking others needed to know this stuff, whether or not they used the info..   Here I am...    I'm not an expert nor do I know if everything I read is fact.. I do my best to sort through the BS to find facts, and then pass them on...   Your "Not so humble, pragmatic, Type-A - Hole" Dave


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## meatstick

DaveOmak said:


> If your smoker is above 200 deg. F, botulism bacteria are supposed to die at 180 ish... and therefore cannot produce spores...   and stuff should be safe to eat...  If spores are produced, the temp to kill those spores is around 240-250 F...
> 
> Soooo, under "normal" BBQ Grilling conditions, cure #1 is not necessary...
> 
> Generally speaking, folks smoke meats etc. at temps of 60 to 140 ish deg. F....   then crank up the temp to finish the cook....   Cure #1 would be "somewhat" mandatory under those conditions if you wanted a 100% safety margin...  Folks will rebut with, "I've smoked meats for years and never got botulism"...   you only need to contract it once..
> 
> Words become so interchangeable that we lose perspective to their meaning...
> 
> As a side note...   It is documented that botulism was contracted from a baked potato that was foil wrapped... left in a warming pan for a few hours...  then eaten...
> 
> Now, I'm guessing the spud was cooked at 350-450 deg. F...  Since it's basically impossible to get water above 212 deg. F, unless it's under pressure, the spud's interior did NOT get above 212 due to the moisture in it...  Therefore, during the process, wrap the spud in foil.. have it sitting around in the kitchen before going in the oven...  have the oven overloaded with spuds so the temperature rise was slow, botulism and the spores "could" grow under the "just right" conditions...  once the spud got to 180 ish, the bacteria died leaving the spores to create the next generation of bacteria....  Since the moisture held the interior temperature, of the spud, to something like 212, the spores survived...   Then when the spud sat for hours at somewhat ideal temperature for botulism growth, in a warm moist environment, the bacteria grew again and some poor soul got botulism poisoning...
> 
> Now, that is a very rare example but it shows the parameters where stuff can happen....
> 
> Sooooo, there are no definitive answers to most questions, as I see it, EXCEPT.... Why take a chance now that you have a "fair" understanding of what you are up against..   If you think you are pushing the boundaries, raise the temperature of your cooking device...  make sure there is adequate oxygen and the meat etc. will not be subject to a low oxygen environment.. (in a vacuum bag left on the kitchen counter), add cure #1 to the product.....   maybe ignore all the data and do whatever suits your fancy...
> 
> I find it very refreshing folks want to learn about this stuff..  some don't... that's expected...   I didn't know squat when I got on this forum...  Some wonderful members were pushing food safety...   I jumped on the wagon thinking others needed to know this stuff, whether or not they used the info..   Here I am...    I'm not an expert nor do I know if everything I read is fact.. I do my best to sort through the BS to find facts, and then pass them on...   Your "Not so humble, pragmatic, Type-A - Hole" Dave


Dave, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I will definitely use the cure #1 that I purchased. There is no sense in taking the chance for a few bucks. Most of my meats I smoke at 225 or above. The only real low temps I use is when I'm doing summer sausage. I try to keep the temp around 170.


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## chef jimmyj

DaveOmak said:


> I would add cure #1 to that recipe....  anything you smoke should have cure in it...  weigh the brine and the ducks...  add 1 tsp. per 5 pounds....



Just to clarify...Anything you smoke Below 225 degrees, should have cure #1 in it... 

It has been established buy the USDA and others, that smoking meat at 225+ is safe...But, proper handling is still key. The " Potato " incident was GROSS mishandling as the spuds were left in an oven overnight then made into Potato Salad with no further cooking. I suspect the potatoes were punctured all over driving the CB Spores into the interior as surface spores would have been killed be the roasting temps they used.

Dave is absolutely correct! If you want 100%, even if you ignore basic food safety and hot smoking practices, safe Duck...Add the Cure #1. However, Hot Smoking at 225+, then refrigerating leftovers within 2 hours of the meal, is also 100% safe and no Cure needed. Thousands of pounds of meat is Hot Smoked every day and no Cure is used or needed. 

As a side note...Cured Duck being a dark meat and high in myoglobin, will be Pink as a Holiday Ham after smoking...And Taste like Ham too! If that is the desired result, add the cure. If DUCK flavored Smoked Duck is what you desire, skip the cure...JJ


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## meatstick

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Just to clarify...Anything you smoke Below 225 degrees, should have cure #1 in it...
> 
> It has been established buy the USDA and others, that smoking meat at 225+ is safe...But, proper handling is still key. The " Potato " incident was GROSS mishandling as the spuds were left in an oven overnight then made into Potato Salad with no further cooking. I suspect the potatoes were punctured all over driving the CB Spores into the interior as surface spores would have been killed be the roasting temps they used.
> 
> Dave is absolutely correct! If you want 100%, even if you ignore basic food safety and hot smoking practices, safe Duck...Add the Cure #1. However, Hot Smoking at 225+, then refrigerating leftovers within 2 hours of the meal, is also 100% safe and no Cure needed. Thousands of pounds of meat is Hot Smoked every day and no Cure is used or needed.
> 
> As a side note...Cured Duck being a dark meat and high in myoglobin, will be Pink as a Holiday Ham after smoking...And Taste like Ham too! If that is the desired result, add the cure. If DUCK flavored Smoked Duck is what you desire, skip the cure...JJ



Thanks JJ. I really appreciate your advice. I think I'm going weight my ducks and add the cure #1 as Dave mentioned.


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## chef jimmyj

meatstick said:


> Thanks JJ. I really appreciate your advice. I think I'm going weight my ducks and add the cure #1 as Dave mentioned.



I have had Cured Smoked Duck, good stuff. You can't go wrong either way...JJ


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## meatstick

Chef JimmyJ said:


> I have had Cured Smoked Duck, good stuff. You can't go wrong either way...JJ


Thanks JJ... I'm looking forward to it.


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## meatstick

Thanks for all the input guys. The ducks turned out great. I will be doing this again.


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## BeginnerKay

I just smoked my first duck on Thanksgiving using the apple/orange brine above.  I was freaked out about all of the cure posts, so I added it to the brine, but not sure that I really needed it.  My smoker was above 250 the entire time.  I want to make this again for Christmas, as it was a hit - but wondering if I really need to add the cure.


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## daveomak

BeginnerKay said:


> I just smoked my first duck on Thanksgiving using the apple/orange brine above.  I was freaked out about all of the cure posts, so I added it to the brine, but not sure that I really needed it.  My smoker was above 250 the entire time.  I want to make this again for Christmas, as it was a hit - but wondering if I really need to add the cure.



If the smoker temp was above 225 all the time, no, you do not need to add the cure..  
However, I use it even when it's not necessary because I like the flavor it imparts to some meats...  I like the pink color too...  I use it on my fish when I'm smoking or canning fish...  The FDA even has a recommendation for adding cure #1 to some vegetables when canning...  You usually only get botulism once...


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## indaswamp

chef jimmyj said:


> I have had Cured Smoked Duck, good stuff. You can't go wrong either way...JJ


MMM! Talk about GREAT Hash!!!


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