# Temp. Probe Contamination !?!?



## dick bullard (Feb 21, 2010)

Okay I understand the basics of possibly contaminating your meat when inserting the temp. probe into raw meat....! I am all for food safety and try to follow it the best I can.....But......!!!

Here is the concept I can't understand....why is it okay then to puncture raw meat with needles when injecting marinades and etc. and using large needles for pumping in large quantities of the same into larger meat chuncks......I'm not talking about pumping brines, but the normal injected flavors ??? I'm sure there are folks poking some of their smoke with knives to insert garlics and whatever for flavor, not to exclude those that just might be loading the smoker with a large BBQ fork...making holes all over the meat.....I could go on and on !!!

The reason this has come to my attention lately is.....I read a post from a Newbie on doing one of his first smokes and he almost sounded paranoid about insertimg a temp. probe at the wrong time !!!

Maybe I'm missing something, but how can we caution on one thing and throw caution to the wind on similar procedures......just askin !!!

Rick


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## rdknb (Feb 21, 2010)

Very good points, I look forward to the answers


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## graybeard (Feb 21, 2010)

Consider the source and always keep your utensels clean. Common sense goes a long ways!

beard


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

i agree with this very much. also, please everyone keep in mind that when you are cooking your meat up to temperatures approaching 200 degrees, you're killing everything that may have been there and the "danger" of food-borne illness from any pathogens that may have been there is nil.

always cook ground meat (burger, sausage etc.) past 165. other meats that don't get as high as barbecue (such as tenderloin etc.) "should" be cooked past 160 internal.

having said all that, there is no reason not to be extra-cautious. use a clean probe etc. if for no other reason that for the sake of hygene.


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## deltadude (Feb 21, 2010)

The issue is the intact muscle, before puncturing the meat the muscle is intact and thus the kind of contamination to worry about is surface contamination.  Thus as long as the surface of the meat to a depth of .5" achieves 140º in four hours or less then whatever surface contaminates or present be stopped from multiplying to dangerous levels and when 165º is acheieved they will be killed.  The inside temp of the meat is not an issue and can take hours or low heat but eventually must achieve the USDA recommendation for that particular meat.

If the intact muscle is punctured by a probe or injection needle, then the muscle is not intact and is now consider ground meat, where the possible surface contaminates are possibly now in the inside of the meat.  Thus the whole piece of meat now requires achieving 140º in less than 4  hours, to stop the multiply process which can release dangerous toxins, again meat has to be cooked to 165º to kill the contaminates.

Personally after reading the USDA recommendations on smoking, which clearly describes the proper procedures, and says to use two probes, one inside the meat to measure meat temp and a second probe to measure cooking temp, then proceeds to describe the cooking process of taking many hours to achieve the recommended temp per each meat.  There is no differentiation between sticking a probe in the meat at the beginning of a smoke or waiting until the meat achieves 140º.  The emphasis is simply on achieving whatever the recommended safe temp is for each particular meat.
Further the same type of language is used when describing the slow cooking process as used in a crockpot or other slow cooking device, without any distinction about intact or non-intact muscle (ground meats).  So as long as the cooking temp is 180º or greater even if it takes 8 hours to achieve a meats safe consumption temp that is ok.  There is NO mention of clearing the danger zone in less than 4 hours if either the meat is ground (non-intact muscle) or intact, or probed / injected.  

The inclusion in the USDA smoking meats recommendation of using two probes, (rem. these are recommendations to a novice/public) implies inserting the probe at the very beginning of the smoke.  Further this places the ultimate emphasis on achieving the recommend safe consumption temps for any meat ground or whole muscle, not on hitting 140º in less than 4 hours.  Let me say again, there is no mention in either the USDA slower cooker guidelines or smoking meat guidelines about the danger zone, and acknowledges that both cooking types requires hours upon hours of cooking, and there is no mention of changing cooking times for any kind of meat.

So now that I have added to the confusion, draw your own conclusion.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

>>>there is no mention in either the USDA slower cooker guidelines or smoking meat guidelines about the danger zone<<<

dd makes a good point here. the "danger zone" applies to food sitting out.


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## bbally (Feb 21, 2010)

This is an incorret statement.  The danger zone applies to all meat, not just meat waiting to be cooked.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

yes, that's what i said. whether cooked or not, when you have a piece of meat, keep it above or below the danger one to prevent pathogen growth.


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## chefrob (Feb 21, 2010)

good question rick and and to tell you the truth there is conflicting advice on puncturing a whole intact muscle prior and durring the cooking process. like you said "what about making slits for garlic/herbs/etc." on this one it is simple, the surface temp of an inact whole muscle will reach well above 165 way before the 4 hr mark so a clove of garlic inserted 1/2" deep does not pose a risk. 

as for injecting flavors (not cure) you will be punturing and inserting a foreign subtance that will have been exposed to bacteria and inserting it into the meat. my thoughts on this, i don't inject. not because of the danger but i don't like the altared flavor of meat.....that's just me. do i think it is safe? if done with clean utensils and good products handled safely and cooked to proper temps within the correct time frame it should be fine, do i do it....no

as for temp probing you will be taking a contaminated (if not sterilized) object and upon inserting into the meat you will be introducing surface bacteria from the meat into the inside of the muscle. use a alcohol patch and i don't temp until the very end of the cooking process.

larding is simmilar to injecting but you are only using fat. this is a techinique that has been used for years and is taught in culinary institutions all over the world. it is a french technique and brings moisture to lean meats. my take on this is ...why? buy pieces of meat that has fat already in it.......larding needles can get a little pricey and can be a pain to use and "potentialy" expose the meat to a greater risk of contamination. 

all the above are perfectly acceptible cooking practices to use and if you choose to try them then you chose to do so at your own risk.......there is my disclamer. that being said we should not be parinoid to temp out meat or to try new things in cooking. for those who say the USDA is the end all of food safety.......i choose "my" experience, training, and most of all common sense over the govt. when it comes to food saftey. i have done this for 25 yrs and and i have seen the danger zone change many different times based on "science". if it was science that established the previous standard......what makes this new one safer than the last one......or the one before that.


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## chefrob (Feb 21, 2010)

it also includes meat durring the cooking proscess as i have understood it.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

rob, re-read USDA - they are referring to cooked meats and raw meats. meat that is cooking is "in process." see my previous post re: finished temps.


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## chefrob (Feb 21, 2010)

i don't tust the govt.
by that interpretation i can take 20+ hrs to get a turkey through the danger zone and it would still be safe? not on my family's table. am i mis under standing something cuz i don't thing that's what you are tryng to say.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

if you're taking 20 hours to cook a turkey, you've got bigger problems than the potential of pathogens.


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## chefrob (Feb 21, 2010)

it would really suprise you with some of the idiots i have "bounced" off my back dock before........

FWIW - i have leaned towards your (how do i say this without understating your stance on foodsafty)..."liberal" aproach to the craft and common sense atttude.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 21, 2010)

hey rob - didn't mean to dismiss your question, bud. it's just that everyone has their ways of doing things. 

[opinion]to me, turkeys and other poultry should be cooked at higher temps, more in the 300-325 or even 350 range. they are tender so low-n-snow doesn't really apply and may in fact result in a finished product that is dry; additionally, cooking at a higher temperature eliminates the grossness of rubbery skin.

as for 20 hours to cook somethng, it can happen with briskets etc. i don't give much thought to internal pathogens for two reasons: 

1) because i have gotten to the point where i don't need to know what the meat is doing every minute while it is cooking. i know what it is doing - it is cooking; therefore, i simply wait till it looks like it is "close to getting done" and start probing then. by this time, it is long past 160 degrees and, in my mind safe. since the meat is intact, there is no worry.

2) my barbecue (brisket, pulled pork, ribs, chicken, fatties etc.) is always cooked well past 165 degrees, much of it to temperatures approaching 200 degrees. anything that "may" have gotten on or into the meat is long dead and cooked by the time my barbecue is pulled off the grate, and therefore safe.

just as i would put a roast in the oven and take it out when its done, so too would i do the same with barbeuce on the smoker. i am aware of food safety guidelines and believe in them; and for those reasons as well as for hygiene i am mindful of such things, but i do not lose sleep over it. i refuse to be held hostage by fear. when it quits befing fun and starts to seem like a volatile science experiment gone horribly wrong and in danger of blowing up, then i will quit barbecuing.[/opinion]

i hope this clarifies my position and answers your questions. above all, i would advise everyone to do the research, match it with commmon sense and logical thought, and then do what they are comfortable with.


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## chefrob (Feb 21, 2010)

that's pretty much my view.....


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## dick bullard (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks for all the great input so far folks.....definitely starting to understand (learn) some good info from SMF.

Now, is it possible for someone, with much more understanding of the subject than me to post a thread listing what we all seem to agree with on this subject.

I'm sure it would not on help newcomers to our forum, but more of us that have been around for awhile...don't think it ever hurts to read a few reminders of safety points in smokin so we don't get too complacent with time !!!

Rick


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## bbally (Feb 21, 2010)

It is ok if you take them through the temperature danger zone within 4 hours.

Foodcode on injected and mechanical meats:


_(2) 68_

_oC (155o__F) for 15 seconds or the temperature specified_
_in the following chart that corresponds to the holding time for_

_RATITES__, MECHANICALLY TENDERIZED, and INJECTED MEATS;
_ 
The reason for the foodcode is precisely people doing these things.  Once it leads to an outbreak the failure is analyzed and the code is looked at in depth.  The changes over the years to the foodcode has come from the knowledge learned in investigating foodborne illness outbreaks.

About the time everyone thinks the foodcode is idiot proof, some town creates a *better idiot* and we find a new foodborne illness outbreak.

Insert the probe after the outside has gone above 135 F (2009) foodcode.

We don't through caution to the wind.  You will just find a lot of people that don't care about food safety or are completely ignorant of it.  Often it is an ego thing.... Ahhh I don't follow that dopey stuff... I don't trust the government.... or some such craappp.

Can not tell you how many stupid food safety things I see on food TV.. from Emeril's EGO instilled... "food police crap" to Alton "I have not a clue about food safety" ideas on curing with saltpeter.

We try to correct the ones that are wrong and let people know what is correct.  But the education continues as an ongoing education process.  Some don't learn so fast.


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## bbally (Feb 21, 2010)

This is an incorrect assumption on foodcode.

The meat must move through the danger zone in four hours total.  That includes prep time.

Also the assumption that food becomes safe when it hits a certain temperature is wrong.

The botulinum toxin is not destroyed in normal cooking temperatures.  Cooking to any final temperature that would be edible at the end would still result in illness.


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## bbally (Feb 21, 2010)

Not true.  Botulism toxin is not destroyed at 200F it will remain a problem that causes foodborne illness.

Cooking food to an ultimate final temperature does not mean it is safe.  It has to be handle correctly from the start to finish.

As another member said, Know your sources.... always good to know where the product comes from... and handle it properly all the time.

Don't take tenderloin this high it will ruin it.  Use the intact muscle rule and cook it to your preferred temperature.

Correct, always have clean sanitized utensiles.


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## bbally (Feb 21, 2010)

Correct, but the cooking time coming through the danger zone counts as in the danger zone.  "In process" is not an exception to the time constraint.


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## chefrob (Feb 22, 2010)

you are right, i never think the food code is idiot proof........i've seen those "better idiots" in the field.


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## chefrob (Feb 22, 2010)

but you can do these things as long as you follow the 4 hr rule....


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## chefrob (Feb 22, 2010)

i'm sure you aren't quoting me (correct me if i am wrong) but since i used that exact phrase i need to explain why i did. i have seen the danger zone temps change lower and then up and then down again. this may have happened on a local level or on a national level but never the less it has happened and approved by some form of government. do i trust them more than myself where my food should be on temps....absolutely not. i like the temps i've established for my use and will continue to use them.  is this ego.........those who know me know better. when it comes down to it i am i trained professional and have been doing this for years, some of you are not and that is why i try to be carefull of what i say so not to mislead anyone. 

one more note on trusting the govt. 
who here is japanese-american...............


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

Was not quoting you.  Like you, I have been cooking professionally for 32 years.  I take food safety seriously because it is important.

My point is poo pooing the government is easy to do (see Emeril comment), but food science comes from research and findings from real people being sick or killed.

I agree the foodcode does change, all good science continues to adapt to techniques, technology, and research findings.


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## chefrob (Feb 22, 2010)

i didn't think you were.......

it is easy to crap on the govt. and most do with out knowledge and with malice....

also lobyist have found ways to change it....for the worst.

it is people like you and me (in the industry) who need to keep our food safe..........and sound.


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## meateater (Feb 22, 2010)

WOW! All this is giving me a headache and taking away from my smoking time. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing, keep your meat fresh and cool and your probe clean.


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## john3198 (Feb 22, 2010)

Bob - please clarify one small piece related to this discussion. 

If I am cooking say a pirme rib roast and I want to take it to only 120-130F for rare, I should not probe until the exterior is 140 or greater, correct? Since it will take a couple of hours to cook, waiting is not an issue. 

Similar issue with a steak. Don't probe at the beginning but wait until external temps are up. Problem is, we may only be cooking that steak for 3-5 min/side (grilling, of course, not smoking). I suppose that If I grill one side then flip, I can insert the probe on the hot side. Correct?


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes and yes

But remember a steak is going to be cooked and eaten immediately.  So you will not face the problem of hours of time for bacteria to grow.

It is only when we get to long periods of time in the danger zone that colonizing bacteria can reach those critical levels to cause illness.


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## john3198 (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks Bob for keeping us on solid ground here. I really appreciate the help.


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## deltadude (Feb 22, 2010)

Quote:
                                                                      Originally Posted by *deltadude* 


 
_ So as long as the cooking temp is 180º or greater even if it takes 8 hours to achieve a meats safe consumption temp that is ok. There is NO mention of clearing the danger zone in less than 4 hours if either the meat is ground (non-intact muscle) or intact, or probed / injected._

quote : bbally   This is an incorrect assumption on foodcode.

The meat must move through the danger zone in four hours total.  That includes prep time.

Also the assumption that food becomes safe when it hits a certain temperature is wrong.

The botulinum toxin is not destroyed in normal cooking temperatures. Cooking to any final temperature that would be edible at the end would still result in illness.  ... end of bbally quote..

bbally,  I have no issue with the accuracy of what you are saying as you are literally applying USDA code, and for the record I have deep respect for anyone with your knowledge and experience.

My statement is a conclusion base on the USDA recommendations from USDA see below.  USDA is clearly saying you can insert probe at the start of cooking, and because there is no mention of the Danger Zone is clearly saying that the essential issue is the finished meat's temperature that it fall withing the USDA safe consumption guidelines.  Further there is NO distinction of types of meat as in ground (non-intact muscle) and (intact muscle).  

I understand the concept about bacteria growth and possible toxin release if meat is held in the danger zone too long.  But apparently (without minimizing the serious danger of food poisoning), apparently the incidence is low enough that even the USDA will not make the effort to spell out the advice.  The advice (if intact muscle is punctured or ground meat or blade tenderized meat is used, then the interior meat temp must be raised to 140º within 4 hours).  Why is this important procedure left out?  It would appear the real issue is cooking the meat to safe consumption temperatures will take care of 99% of the problems or else there would be at least an asterisk with a note?????????

Again I don't want anyone to take the above as objection, challenge or an effort to contradict bbally, but hopefully result is some references produced that clearly spell out the science which leads to a better understanding.

So the issue as it stands, is cooking/smoking meat to the USDA recommended safe consumption temps enough to deal with the majority of possible contamination issues if probes or injection needles are used either prior or at the beginning of a cook/smoke.  
Or if probes or injection needles are used either prior or at the beginning of a cook/smoke if the meat does not achieve an internal temp of 140º in 4 hours or less, then; the meat must be considered contaminated and thrown away.

So far I haven't seen where the USDA spells out the second option.  I do see the first option in many places.

The same info is given here in the comments on smoking


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## deltadude (Feb 22, 2010)

The comments on USDA regulations and fact sheets are based on research and what is learned in the field science.

While that statement is relatively true, the USDA does not always follow the research or even best practices when it comes to enforcement/policy/regulations.

One of the biggest areas in meat production for contamination is ground meat, warning and recalls happen almost weekly.  Yet USDA does not mandate that grinders test each load of meat shipped to them from the different packers they source the meat from.    Why?  It is political.

My only point in saying the above is USDA is subject to political influences and even some of the numbers they use could be refutable.  76 million cases of food related illness a year, but there only 300 K that went to the doctor.  That is sort of like Obama's 3 million new jobs, and many were created in districts that don't even exist.


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## ddave (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, not really.  What they actually are saying is:

I could find no mention of them saying *when* to insert the probe.

Dave


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## pignit (Feb 22, 2010)

Rick..... It's not ok. Here is the deal. You have uncompromised meat, and compromised meat. Each goes by a different set of rules. Compromised meat is meat that has been punctured, injected, marinated, brined in any way shape or form. Anything that introduces the outside to the inside. Period.
Uncompromised meat is exactly that. Uncompromised. 
Knowing the basics is the first step in smokin great food and keeping it safe to eat. Doesn't hurt to be paranoid enough to find the answers to the things your unsure about. If your taking your meat to above 160 and you get it out of the danger zone in 4 hours or less you can stick that probe in your meat anytime you want to. I'm all about having fun smoking but when you start putting food you prepared in someone elses mouth, you have a responsibility in knowing you prepared that food in a safe manner. Little paranoia may be a good thing.... 
I don't. I think one of the things that stands out from most of the forum members is to hand out good advice on food safety. Not personal preferences or opinions, those are for the taste buds and for taste issues. When it comes to food safety there are defined general rules that should keep everybody safe. Stick to those rules and your odds of getting sick or making somebody sick sharing some of that hot pulled pork goes down dramatically.


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## deltadude (Feb 22, 2010)

Its not that I don't believe, I just want to read it.

(I have reconsidered what I posted here)  See more info below..


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## deltadude (Feb 22, 2010)

I have come across this USDA document:
The USDA Kitchen Companion

All aspects of food safety is clearly defined and outlined in this single document for the home cook.  Included are sections on slow cooking, BBQ and smoking (Pg 33, 34).  Included is a complete discussion on the use of thermometers.  *(I think this document should be the SMF reference for USDA recommendations, since that is exactly what it was written for us the home kitchen cook.*  Or at least one of SMF's official references.)

Procedures which are not discussed in the above document such as "waiting until 140º to insert thermometer probe", while it is certain may add an additional level of food safety, since even the USDA doesn't think that information is important enough to include in their own document, SMF gurus should refrain from insisting on a procedure when that procedure can't be referenced in any USDA home kitchen guide or fact sheet. (In addition _see below_, even USDA website section on thermometers and usage has no reference to such a procedure.

Note: It is assumed for sake of discussion that all USDA prescribed smoking/cooking recommendations are being followed, cooking temp 225º - 300º and cooking meat at least to the USDA minimum internal meat temperature or higher.

However in other areas on USDA website which discuss smoking and the use of a thermometer it is clear that the USDA understanding of thermometer use includes inserting the thermometer through an intact muscle at an early stage of the cook/smoke, and since there are no other sequence indicators it is easy to infer at the beginning of a cook/smoke.  (I draw this inference from the two most (traditional) common uses of thermometers inserted in the meat _(and remain there)_ during cooking, (turkey and roasts) which  traditionally has been at the beginning of the cook.)
The same info is provided here on USDA "smoking meat & poultry" fact sheet.

USDA FAct Sheet on Thermometers
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...eets/index.asp

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...ters/index.asp


Contradictions ???? in USDA recommendations
In the USDA Kitchen Companion there is an apparent contradiction.  
It seems according to USDA it is unsafe to cook meat in a kitchen oven below 325º.

This raises the question, if it is unsafe in a kitchen oven to cook meat below 325º how does it become magically safe to do so in a smoker?
It is evident from every USDA publication that given all other USDA recommendations are followed the most critical is cooking meat to the USDA minimum internal safe temperatures (yes there are exceptions).  When comparing minimum oven cooking temps to minimum smoker temp the one constant is cook the meat to the minimum internal safe temp.  USDA understands that meat in a smoker will take longer to cook, but there is no mention of the danger zone, why?  There is no mention of time constraints (in fact the opposite is covered "up to 8 hours or longer to smoke meat"), the emphasis for safe smoking is monitor the cooking temp minimum 225º and make sure the meat's internal temp achieves the USDA min. safe temp.

If USDA is flexible enough to recognize that smoking meat is a centuries old tradition and people are not dropping dead, in spite of science saying the risk of being in the danger zone when low & slow smoking is used or in spite of their own minimum oven cooking temp, should SMF safety recommendations be more stringent than what USDA has published for the home or consumer cook?

Finally, while SMF should always attempt to attain a high food safety standard, it often appears there is an over emphasis on straining gnats and the camels are missed.


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

I believe we should stick with the foodcode. As this document is not up to date and was based on the 2006 code.



One of the reason not to use this document.

If we read the whole statement it indicates the *problem* associated with cooking at lower temperatures. 

• USDA does not recommend cooking meat and poultry at oven temperatures lower than 325 °F. This can cause food to remain in the "Danger Zone" (temperatures from 40 to 140 °F) *too long, allowing bacteria to multiply rapidly.* 

Which of course is what I was saying on "in process" time not mattering.  The four hour rule always applies.  You must have your therm/btu set up to get meat through the danger zone in the time period.

This is of course the 4 hour rule.  This document also changes the real foodcode four hour rule into a two hour rule.  This was added to the document because they wanted home owners to be safer.  The two hour prep rule is not code.  
 
These documents are based on the assumption that you have enough therm/btu to get the meat through the danger zone in under the four hour time limit.

The thermometer wait time is only a basis only when we expect the meat to remain in the danger zone more than 4 hours.  Or that possibility exists.  The Intact muscle rule was used along with HACCP rules to create this safety rule.  This is a proper use of the foodcode.  It contains what is necessary to create safe methodology for doing what we want to do.

For this smoking website that means, how do we tell members to safetly handle their low and slow requirements without putting themselves or their families at risk.  Combining the intact muscle method for handling meat that is going to be in the danger zone to long is an answer.

These are based on normal useage with high therm/btu kitchen cooking tools.  Low and Slow smoking is an exception.


It is not without special precautions.  There are two things in the foodcode we draw on to make it safe.  First a High humidity cooking system (a smoke is such a unit) has an exception in the foodcode to be used down to 200 F.  (less with a haccp plan) and second, the foodcode gives us the guidance on what proper therm/btu is with its recommendation to get the meat through the danger zone within 4 hours, or incorporate the Intact Muscle roast rule for safe ways to hold meat in the danger zone longer safely.

The documents you are referring to are quick references, not the foodcode.  The 225 F temp was picked when guidelines for smoking were first being developed.  Just as the 185 F temp was selected for slow cooker crock pots.

As you have pointed out many of the USDA publications have not come up to speed with the 2009 foodcode.  It is that reason I would recommend that SMF keep using the actual Federal Regulations rather than get into using digested versions of that code, many of which are based on older versions of the foodcode and won't be updated until someone requests it.  (Which I did last night on the Grilling, Barbeque, Poultry and Slow Cooker printings.)  The latest Federal Foodcode is always the correct reference.

I would recommend that SMF keep its present position of utilizing the latest Federal Foodcode.  It is the proper method.  It is the law.


I agree and that is why I would recommend keeping the Federal Foodcode and not incorporating non-regulation marketing documents when it comes to food safety.  I think the gnats and camels come from not wanting to follow the foodcode and instead trying to incorporate other documents that are not the latest rules.  While I applaud the spirited debate, I feel the foodcode is the safest place to look to for proper answers.

Of course I know it means that the questions will keep coming as the foodcode is malleable as is all science.  But with that document we know what is expected.


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

Not a problem, I don't take offense to questions at all. I only offer the foodcode as it is used commercially to keep people safe. And SMF did adopt the foodcode and not flyers and marketing pieces for this reason. The marketing pieces are fraught with errors and omissions and are not updated everytime a new foodcode is adopted. But the foodcode is not, that is why my recommendation was to adopt the foodcode as the basis for food safety questions. It is the safest methodology based on science.

Ask away... working science is always open to challenge, and we all learn more as we strive to find the correct answers.  Although I will resist answers that want to include information not up to date nor based on the foodcode.

The other guides and such at USDA may not be updated for 5 years or more. But the foodcode is visited every year.

First USDA is assuming that you are using 325 F as a cooking temperature. So the therm/btu level is not going to stay in the danger zone longer enough to worry about when to insert the thermometer.

This is another reason we should only be using the foodcode at SMF. As I said many times before, people may do as they please... but the recommendations we offer should be from the foodcode not the marketing pieces put out by USDA and USDA extension offices.

Smoking of meat in the low slow method requires special rules in the commercial environment because they understand that the method has increased danger and therefore requires special proceedures. This means we go to the foodcode because it is outside the norm.

In my opinion that is using the foodcode and not "marketing documents" and I beleive that part was settled a month or so ago when SMF adopted the foodcode only.

Actually if you read the 2009 foodcode it has been changed to reach 135 F in four hours. And yes you need to get it through there within Four hours unless you use the intact muscle rule.


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## deltadude (Feb 22, 2010)

Please provide the link to the commercial food code, I had it and can't find it now..


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## stircrazy (Feb 22, 2010)

ok I just read the food code that pertains to this part and I think there is a lot of confusions here.. they mentions a 4 hour holding limit which they talk about seperate to cooking.. actualy there is no mention on cooking realy aside from minimal internal temps.  maybe that is a different section?

so from charts and other reading the holding is after it is cooked.. so it must be either cooled to below 40 degrees within 4 hours or held above 140.

now from actual reading on the bacteria the temps are actualy 50 to 120, but 40 to 140 is just being safe and putting some error to make some of the dummies safe I guess.  also it is specificaly stated in several documents that boiling for 10 min will destroy the toxin.

now a question I have is that through reading this and looking into a few things, it is stated that the first 1/2" of meet that nees to be cooked to 140 degrees in 4 hours.  so are you guys measuring the first 1/2" or are you probing to the middle of the hunk of meet?

Steve


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## buffalosmoke (Feb 22, 2010)

Posted by bbally in food safety:
http://prochefblog.com/public_pics/f...09foodcode.pdf

And you might wanna get some coffee too...it's almost 700 pages!


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

The four hour limit applies to FOOD period.  It does not matter if you are prepping it, cooking it or curing it, you must not violate the four hour rule at all in total without going above the kill temperatures or below the growth temperature.

The toxin does break down at 212 F but the spore does not go away until 240 F for 15 minutes.  Well above most barbeque pull temps.  


I think you have misunderstand, if you are planning on cooking a piece of meat and having it in the danger zone more than four hours or you want to pull it while in the danger zone (prime rib) you do not want to violate the intact muscle rule.  Which states you can not pierce the meat without knowing you are safe.  If you allow the outside of the meat to go above 140 F you can then place a sterilized probe in the meat without creating a violation of the intact muscle rule.

The new 2009 code has offered 135 F as the top of the danger zone instead of the old 140 F.  You will see them used interchangably until the 2009 code spreads to enough people.

Also on cooling, you have 6 hours in two steps, 2 hours below 70 F then 4 hours below 40 F.


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## bmudd14474 (Feb 22, 2010)

I know this is a heated topic for all here at time. But we will error on the side of caution and only recommend the safest way. You may choose to do something different and that is fine but if you are making a recommendation on this site we expect it to be the safe recommendation based off of the food code. 

There is a reason that we go off of the food code. It is because of the same thing we are seeing in this thread. I can search the internet and get the answers I want to see about anything. I could search and get it to tell me Im a millionaire but is that true NO. 

At some point there has to be a standard that is chosen and for SMF it is the food code. Not a piece from here and a piece from there. 

Also remember that BBally is certified in Food Safety and is a Certified Food Safety Trainer so he does this for a living. I could look thru the 700 page food code and get what I need out of it but will I ever fully understand it? No. 


Last but not least just remember when giving safety advise its better to be safe then sorry because if someone takes your advise and its wrong (or they execute it wrong because of confusion) they are the ones that suffer and NOT you.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 22, 2010)

with all due respect to bbally, and not to open a whole 'nother can of worms, but there are several people here with the same credentials.

facts are facts - the problems come with interpretations.


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## bbally (Feb 22, 2010)

I agree that is why I responded with my understanding of the science. It is also why I watch to see how someone would answer the "in process question" when applied to the turkey. I think that question sure brought home the error in the thinking that cooking times don't matter if its in the oven, and made the misinturpretation very easy to be understood as not factual or even based in common sense.


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## bmudd14474 (Feb 22, 2010)

Unless you are one of those people I think you need not comment on this topic. If those people feel like coming fwd then more power to them and they are welcomed but as of now none of your "other" people with the same credentials have come fwd.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 22, 2010)

bmudd - those "other people" either have been quite specific in that they don't want to get in a wrestling match with a pig (no attack on anyone, they are just saying that that the topic is a lose-lose situation), or they are concerned about being reprisals in the form of censorship, suspension and banning for daring to put forth some common sense on the subject.

it doesn't take a "certified expert" to do some research and educate oneself on such things. what it takes is research and informed discussion. for instance, the world health organziation and the university of florida data shows that c bot TOXINS are dead at 176. while they say that the spores can survive up to temperatures near the boiling point, both sources agree that the toxins are what's dangerous, not the spores. the spores are harmless to anyone but infants. further, both sources state quite specifically that barbecue is not a "risk factor" for c bot - rather, they list activities such as improper home canning (anaerobic environment) and improper cooking of seafood and sea mammals, of all things. if they are going to get into activities as esoteric as sea mammals, then barbecue would also be listed, if there were an appreciable danger. it's not listed.

those are just some instances where the facts stand in the way of interpretations that have been posted. the best thing people can do is educate themselves and not succumb to panic and throw a 25$ brisket away for no reason. i have not seen a single member say that USDA should be tossed out the window, but it needs to be applied correctly, not misapplied recklessly.

those are my 2 cents on the subject, as well as my final say. this particular topic is a sucker's game and it will never be resolved as long as intelligent discussion on it is quashed. i think i've taken enough bullets for the cause, so i'm done with the subject - it's time for another gallileo or copernicus to weigh in.


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## pineywoods (Feb 22, 2010)

Personally I find it disturbing that a few people have such a hard time accepting food safety rules as sound advice. Every restaurant in the United States has to follow them and they don't say oh well your a BBQ place so your exempt. If you choose to do what you want thats up to you and the people that eat your food. The owner of this site has said we will go by the USDA standards so that is what we will do. Now as far as who knows what we have seen Bbally's certifications and the site owner chose to make him a "Trusted Authority" and that carries a lot of weight with me and I'm sure many others here.


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## bmudd14474 (Feb 22, 2010)

Your right it doesnt take a expert to google something. But when you have someone who is certified and someone who googles something I am going to side with the person who has been certified and re-certified instead of someone who knows how to use a search engine.


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## deltadude (Feb 23, 2010)

This thread was an interesting thread, until these kind of comments were posted!

1st I have learned a lot, that is the result of being allowed to express either an opinion, ask a question, or make a comment.

Now WE are being told that unless we are a certified authority to keep out of any such discussion.  

OR

Disturbing?  How so, because one asks a question based on USDA information, that is disturbing?  What was disturbed, your knowledge base, your experience, your conscience?  Civil, was there any post I made that wasn't civil and respectful, and asked legitimate questions not based on my whim, but referenced every time with USDA references?  Did I not already state that I respected bbally as an authority on this subject, therefore attempting to elevate the discussion to an academic one he as my mentor?

Am I not a citizen of this forum, and allowed to ask questions even if the questions may run contrary to SMF gospel, as long as they are respectful and ment to help further knowledge and not ment to be disruptive or produce disharmony?  Because that is not my intent...

bbally has been nothing but respectful in handling my questions and also is helpful with more in depth explanations behind the scenes in PM, so bbally and I have zero problem.  The only problem seems to be with some who can not grasp the difference between respectful inquisitive knowledge seeking and disruptive tirade to just make noise.


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## bmudd14474 (Feb 23, 2010)

Deltadude,

My post was not aimed at you it was at TasunkaWitko and that is why I quoted him.  

I agree that there is alot of good information in this thread but my response to TasunkaWitko was because this isnt the first thread that he has argued/discussed the same things and got the same answers back. He doesnt seem to understand or want to understand the position of SMF. 

As stated before I encourage questions but once they are answered then move on. Dont rehash things in a different thread because you didnt get the answer you wanted.


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## stircrazy (Feb 23, 2010)

If this is directed at me, I wasn't searching till I found and answer on goggle that suted me, I read the section in your food code and am trying to interpret why it is different that what has been said as it is different from other US gov documents.  I do have a food safty course but am not a trainer, I also have a serving it right course so if you need to know stuff about serving drinks to drunks I can answer that 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I agree there will always be grea areas otherwise the code would never change, but I can tell you the US code is different from the canadian code and other countries code, is the US one more strict because of the Jack in the box problems of years ago?

for BBally, what is the difference in your ground meet vs whole mussle meet as it pertains to smoking? I know to me I would be much more worried about the 4 hour thing with ground meet, as intact whole mussel meet "should" only have the bacteria on the outside and would be killed off very fast in a 225 to 250 degree smoker as the surface will be brought up to that temp rather quickly.

I am not trying to fuel an argument, just trying to further my understanding since most of the peopl on here are Americans and I am not familier with your code.

Steve


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 23, 2010)

you must have missed this part:

and if "googling" leads to the world health organization and the university of florida, and they state information that is a differing interpretation, then there is no reason not to bring it to light in the spirit of getting authoritative information out to those who seek it.

the number of people seeking answers are proof enough that the subject is not "closed." until the contradictions are ironed out and applied to barbecue, then this is always going to be an issue. quashing discusion on it and banning skeptics will do no good. only a marriage between common sense, logic, experience and safety is going to bring about a satisfactory resolution.


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## tasunkawitko (Feb 23, 2010)

once again, no disrepect is intended, nor is anyone advocating that people ignore USDA. what we are saying is people should not oonly read the guidelines but also understand them and apply them correctly. goals such as this have been accomplished very well since the days of ancient greece, by open discussion and "hashing out" of the facts. anyone who has been to college knows this.


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## pineywoods (Feb 23, 2010)

Stircrazy as I understand it ground meat is the same as punctured meat in that you have to take it from 41-135 in under 4 hours.
Whole intact muscle rule says that you have to get the outer .5" from 41-135 in under 4 hours.
If I'm incorrect I'm sure Bob can correct me. These standards were 40-140 until this year.

Tas while ya'll know I like the Gators the University of Florida nor the World Health Organization make up the food safety rules for the U.S.


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## rdknb (Feb 23, 2010)

I know this thread got a little heated at times, but I learned a lot and will be paying a but more attention to the 4 hour mark. Since I inject I guess it does not matter when I insert probe as long as I get to 135/140 in 4 hours.  Is that correct


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## pineywoods (Feb 23, 2010)

That is correct as I understand the rules


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## pignit (Feb 23, 2010)

Although this document is a few years old, it is an excellent read and has some interesting numbers in it. 

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/fn572-1.htm

It's not a long read and is very comprehensive.


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## stircrazy (Feb 23, 2010)

thats what I have been trying to figure out.  when doing a intact muscle and you finaly do use a probe at say the 4 hour mark, are you only probing the 1/2" on the surface to see what the temp is or are you putting the probe in the middle?  

I actualy had a funny though, if we use an alchol swab and wipe down a couple inches around the site you want to put your probe in and wipe the probe can we still treat it as intact muscle?  its good enough for putting needles in our arms
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  mind you it might make it tase funny there
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Steve


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## bbally (Feb 23, 2010)

You are correct in that hamburger is a larger worry than whole muscle.

The following the whole muscle rule is a way to be safe while having meat consumed at a temperature in under the recommend roasting temperature.  It is also a way to ensure meat safety should it stall for a long period of time in the danger zone.

Your also correct on the outside being killed off fast.  That is why it is recommended that the probe placement into the meat be delayed until the outside of the meat reaches the kill temperature.  This ensures that no bacteria is pushed into the center of the meat by the probe.

If it has not been punctured it can be handled under the intact muscle rule.  You can put the probe in delayed to give the outside a chance to heat past the kill zone.


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## bbally (Feb 23, 2010)

You can shove it in the middle and measure your roast at that point.  Actually long before that point, but if you want to wait four hours you can... though half an hour should kill the bad things if they are on the outside.


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## rdknb (Feb 23, 2010)

bbally just want to tell you thanks for your info you give us and btw sempre fi


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## bbally (Feb 23, 2010)

Welcome... ooh rah leatherneck


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## beer-b-q (Feb 23, 2010)

Is it just me or is this topic getting old and depressing?  We went through this in Dec., Jan., and now Feb..  It seems that every month we can look forward to the Resurrection of this topic.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the USDA Food Safety Guidelines are necessary and save countless people from food poisoning.

I also believe that probably 99% of the households in the USA have never read nor heard of them but still somehow managed to raise families.  A lot of home cooks probably don't even own a thermometer.

This is my favorite site to visit and Smoking Meat is supposed to be fun not a chore where you have to worry that if I do this wrong someone is going to be called by the USDA for doing it wrong.

I guess what I am saying is the constant bickering in threads like this is taking the fun out of Smoking.

Lets move on to fun things and let this thread DIE...


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## ronp (Feb 23, 2010)

I am with you Paul Jeff has established the rules here and we should either follow them or just read them and not challenge them.


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## chefrob (Feb 23, 2010)

i am disappointed at this comment.......while i may not have the same credentials on paper i have been in the business for close to 30 yrs and have taken all of the classes that bob is certified to teach and have always been in the very hi 90's when tested (96 was the lowest ever) and according to this statement i still would not have the SAME credentials as bob. does this mean i am not able to come forward to comment on this subject? for me this is very detrimental for the food safety discussion as it sets up a platform of "culinary technical elitism" that tends to shun those of "lesser" knowledge just looking to find a "simple" answer. as a foodservce proessional i will always try to give help to someone who is looking for it.......not out of an egotistical drive or for the need for self validation but simply because of the respect, devotion, and love that i have for my craft. 

i came here to this forum because i wanted to learn something that in my 25+ years of learning and working at my craft simply had no knowledge of how to smoke meats. sure i knew the "industry" way of making ribs but that is not the "honest" way. when i came here i took my title/badge off so i could learn from others who had been doing this for a while. did they have a "certifcation"......no, but they still had their advice and i listened, tried and changed things around to suit my likes. my point is that when a discussion takes place new ideas/problems/solutions come about and sometimes those of us at the "top" learn form those at the "bottom" of what ever type of rating system/catagory people placement type org. . sometimes people just want a simple answer of yes or no with a short reason. i clicked on the USDA site once........are you kidding me? i don't need to read 800 pgs to tell me how to handle/cook/hold food safely.....nor do i need it to tell someone else how to do the same. my numbers may not be the same as the USDA's and unlike the USDA's my standards have NEVER changed and i will guarantee i will NEVER get anyone sick. 

with that being said, i hope that those who may be intimidated or just don't want to get into a big discussion or just want a simple answer do not be afraid to contact me via PM. if i don't have an answer i will find it for you. a foodsafety dicussion should never be a oneway report, Q&A with no back and forth engaugement, and forum to chastise anyone for their input or questions and no one should ever fear repercussions for doing so......period!

as a footnote........yes i do know this has gone around before and sometimes quite heated at times but as long as we have new comers this will always be a topic for discussion DISPITE what the forum administrators have decided to be the "standard".


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## stircrazy (Feb 23, 2010)

ok one question, hopefully one that will help others.

If I have a big hunk of meat and I cut in in 1/2 with a nice single cut, can I treat the two halves as intact muscle meat?  the answer to me would seam to be yes, but just want to clairify this.

Steve


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## chefrob (Feb 23, 2010)

yes..........


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## rivet (Feb 23, 2010)

*BRAVO, CHEFROB!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## ddave (Feb 23, 2010)

Seems pretty simple to me. 

I'm all for open discussion and lively debate but it seems to me that if the forum owner has decided on a standard source for safety related information, has determined and named who he feels should be Trusted Authorities, and has instructed his mod/admin staff to enforce those rules, then I think out of respect for him we should abide by his rules.

I don't think any mod or admin is saying people can't offer food safety advice unless they are a Trusted Authority.  I think they are just asking that advice be given in accordance with the site owner's wishes which he made pretty clear in this thread.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/for...ad.php?t=86649

If people have questions about interpretations of certain aspects of the code, I'm sure bbally would be happy to answer those questions.  Maybe they could be addressed in a separate thread so that the new folks won't be afraid to ask a food safety question for fear that they will start a war.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave


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## triplebq (Feb 23, 2010)

Agreed . Jeff has set his rules to " CHA " or " CYA " for you slow ones . How about common sense use ? If you stick something that is no where close to being done what's the point ? You guys ever hear of washing in hot water with Joy? I mean get real, stickit raw~ *WASH it in hot water before re-using.How the h e l l did our parents ever raise us ..what with cutting up chickens on the same counter as fresh cut greens and french frys . Not to mention no seat belts in cars .*


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## richoso1 (Feb 24, 2010)

I think there are some other members who share your opinion, if you take into consideration all the time and effort involved, it seems as if it's still in debate and without conclusion. But for those interested in other areas, they can move on to another/different thread.


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## smokingohiobutcher (Feb 24, 2010)

Maybe they could be addressed in a separate thread so that the new folks won't be afraid to ask a food safety question for fear that they will start a war.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave[/quote]

Sometimes its amazing how a simple question can become so complicated.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




SOB


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## pignit (Feb 24, 2010)

I think an important thing to remember in all this debate.... safe handling and cooking methods *reduce* your risk of food poisoning. If I can do something that is going to drop the odds of illness or even death..... I'm all over it man. That doesn't mean you have to.

It's common sense to me that if your not probing your meat before the exterior 1/2 inch reaches 140 degrees, your *lowering the odds* of creating bacteria that can cause food poisoning. I'm all for it, regardless of who suggests it or sanctions it. I base this on proven scientific fact of what conditions bacteria grow in. 

Things that may not cause me illness may cause illness in someone elderly or someone young or someone that has a lowered immune system. The guidelines are there to keep *everyone* safe. To follow those guidelines and methods that are proven and known to *reduce* the risk is a personal choice.

If I answer a question on this forum it is to pass on information that I've researched, or experienced and feel confident in being responsible for that answer. You can follow all the safety methods and guidelines in smoking a piece of meat and end up sick because some goofball down the line mishandled that piece of meat.

My point being... there is no absolute here. It's numbers... it's like saying, if you do this... your gonna provide the perfect environment for growing bacteria.... but this and this and this are proven methods for *reducing* that risk.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here in this forum... just trying to pass on healthy, safe, accurate information. And yes this seems to come up every month or so in a little different format. I don't have credentials but I have learned an incredible amount of information from some that do.... and some that don't. I have a desire to learn and a desire to share.... and this forum gives me the opportunity for both.


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## rdknb (Feb 24, 2010)

Seems this thread has given a few a headache.  Me being new here it has taught me a lot about food safety I did not know.  I Did have to read though the posts and make choices on the material I read, but I for one learned a lot and I am glad you all talked about it and in the end will be safer in my smoking


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## chefrob (Feb 24, 2010)

and that folks is what it is all about........


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## mule86 (Feb 24, 2010)

Ok, I've gone through most of this thread.

For a beginner, can someone please tell me what is an acceptable way to cook chicken, beef, and pork and to what temps?

I cooked a chicken this past weekend, prepared it the night before (split and rubbed) put it in the fridge and fired up the smoker the next day.  I got the chicken on, left it on for around an hour, and then began checking the internal temps with a probe.  I did this several times before pulling it off and finishing it off in the oven at 350 to get the breast's above 165 and the thighs above 170.  I don't recall the temp ever being below 150 when I probed them for the first time.  Was this wrong?  Could I have comprimised the meat?  Finally, after I sliced it, It was left out in a covered container for a few hours before it was heated up again before serving.  I'm sure I did a lot wrong here so please, be kind....


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## chefrob (Feb 24, 2010)

first off there are 3 sets of temps involved:
1) doneness temps - these are when a particular meat is done
2) holding temp - this where you can hold fully cooked foods
3) reheat temp - this is the temp you need to reach when reheat fully cooked foods

also there is a danger zone rule that *I* go by:
40-140 deg for 4 hours. food (potentialy hazardous) needs to pass through this zone in 4 hours or less whether cooking or cooling. the USDA has wavered from the past to extend this time frame under certain conitions but i do not agree with it and will not recomend it to anyone for any reason.....period.

doneness temps - 
poultry - 165
pork - 160
beef - 145*
seafood - 145
all ground meats - 165
* there are exceptions 

holding temp - above 140
reheat temp - bring the temp to 165


no, but after an hour at smoking temps it would not have been done so probing would only let juices out.

yes, if you didn't clean/sterilize the probe and then probed again.

see holding temps and danger zone, if you were not going to serve it in the alotted time frame you should have cooled it and then reheated it....you did not state how long it sat out for.


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## mule86 (Feb 24, 2010)

What is the best way to steralize a probe when you have 2 split chickens that you will need to probe each one at different times? A lysol type disinfectant wipe? Physically wash in soap and water after each probe of each half?

The chicken set out, in a covered container for about 3 hours, (I now realize this is too long) and then we re-heated in the oven at 350 for about 10-15 minutes. I didn't check to see if the chicken came back up to 160. I'm kicking myself right now. 2 of the 6 Adults who ate have come up sick 48 hours after eating.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  (However, my daughter, who didn't eat any of the chicken also is sick and they watched her for an entire day so we're not sure if it is just a bug, or from the chicken.)  Needless to say, with this having been my first smoke, I'm more than a little paranoid about cooking for people again.


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## chefrob (Feb 24, 2010)

washing in soap and water is cleaning...sanitizing is using a disinfectant like an alcohol patch or a mild bleach solution. i would recommend doing both. also i keep an mild bleach soluton (with soap) in a spray bottle on my counter at home and especial when dealing with poultry i hit everything that comes in contact with it and or juices.....including myself. 

according to the USDA this is o.k..........not for me. also when reheating (or cooking for that matter) never go by time........always temp. 
those who got sick should have gotten sick sooner if it was from that chicken....alot can happen in 48 hrs.


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## mule86 (Feb 24, 2010)

Yeah, I realize now that I should have put the chicken in the fridge immediately after slicing and then reheated to 165 in the oven.

  And I was thinking the same thing about getting sick 48 hours after eating the chicken, and so far, only two have gotten sick and they watched my daughter (who is now sick) on Saturday as well as being around her Sunday evening?  However, I read where food poisiong can show up up to six weeks after eating the contaminated food?!?!

Where can you get the alcohol patches that can be used to sanitize the probe?  Would a lysol disinfectant wipe work as well?


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## chefrob (Feb 24, 2010)

i have never heard of this but i'm no expert in endocronology.........there might be something out there that might make it possible.......i guess.

most drug stores carry them and they are cheaper and mor convinient than the wipes.....but they should be fine too....i just wouldn't like the scented ones. smoked "fresh breeze" pork ribs don't sound too fun...........


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## mule86 (Feb 24, 2010)

I just bought these online:

http://www.globeequipment.com/Catalo.../COO!9150.html

Nothing like a little paranoia about possibly getting people sick to get educated about this stuff.  I'm always conscious of food safety, but now I feel like I've got a lot better understanding to feel confident about cooking for others again.


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## chefrob (Feb 24, 2010)

there is no need to be paranoid when it comes to cooking/smoking...we just need to use safe practices and have fun. and those will work fine......there should be a cheaper alernative out thee some where.....i don't know cuz i don't have to pay for them. the reason i said a drug store is because of people with diabetes who need to administer insulin to themselves....just a thought.


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## deltadude (Feb 25, 2010)

Describe the adults symptoms that got sick.


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