# Danger Zone - Yes, another question...



## gitterson

Ok, I'm sorry to ask this as I've seen some existing threads - read MANY actually.  As this is a potential safety issue, please allow me some leeway in asking a specific question for my specific issue.

Background:

I smoke a mess of ribs, boston butts and brisket for about 70 people every year.  Aside from that, I do plenty of other smoking.  Until recently when I was looking for a good warm-up time recipe for brisket, I had never even HEARD of the danger zone.

Fast forward about 3 weeks.  I've got a new smoker (used twice).  I'm going to smoke for the 70-people party.

I pulled 6 racks and an 8lb. butt out of the fridge (all in cryo packs).  I spent the next 2+ hours peeling the membranes, rubbing, etc.  I had them on the smoker at about 3 hours later.

Here are my concerns:

Ribs and butt were probably on the counter for 3 hours total before going into the smoker (235-ish).
I bought a new Redi-check wireless bbq/food probe.  Since the boston was at the bottom of the WSM, I put the probe in COLD (never done that before).
As I've said, I've smoke a lot of meat...for a lot of people and never had anyone get sick.  I don't *know* if I've ever had meat out that long for prep, but I'm guessing I HAVE.  The party is Saturday, so I'd be resting and refrigerating tonight and re-warming day of.

Should I scrap it?  Kills me to waste $80, but I don't want anyone to die...

Thanks.

JB


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## hambone1950

3 hours out on the counter after being in the fridge , right? I mean , it had to stay cold for a good  while after that..... I can't imagine it being a problem. And heck , you're cooking that meat so well done.... Brother , I am no doctor or health inspector even , but I think you'll be fine.


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## s2k9k

The problem I see here is that the butt sat out for 3 hours and I'm sure the surface temp went above 40* in that time and that's when bacteria can start growing (above 40*). Now you stuck your temp probe in it and when you did you took a big chance of pushing any surface bacteria deep inside the meat where it could start multiplying like crazy.
The rule for any meat where the surface has been compromised (probed, injected, stuck with a knife...) is for the internal temp of the meat to go from 40*-140* within 4 hours.

This is a good example of why I never insert a temp probe into a large cut of meat until it has been cooking for at least 4 hours, that way I know the surface is well above 140* before it gets compromised, also why I never leave meat out to get to room temp before putting on the smoker. It's straight from fridge to smoker for me. (I will never understand why people think meat will cook faster sitting on the counter than it will inside a smoker)


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## themule69

the 4 hour rule applies to sitting on the counter as well. So it sits on the counter for 3 hours. that leaves you 1 hour to get above 140°

I know your thinking. No one has ever got sick before. If you play Russian roulette long enough???????????

I see this is your fist post. Will you drop by roll call so everyone can give you a proper SMF welcome.

Happy smoken.

David


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## mdboatbum

I'm usually pretty fussy about food safety, especially where large groups are concerned. But, if I were in this situation, I think I'd go ahead with the cook. The ribs should be fine no matter what. The butt I also wouldn't worry about. Why? Well it's a pretty big heat sink, and it's gonna take a while for the internal mass to warm up. So let's say it's out for 3 hours, maybe the outer 1" has been in the danger zone. Not an ideal scenario, but I'm gonna guess you covered it in a rub with a fairly high salt content, right? That will essentially shut down the surface bacteria. By the time you probed it, the surface of the meat was a pretty inhospitable environment for bacteria.

Like I said, this is if I were in this situation. You do what you feel is right. I will say that if anyone on the guest list is under 5, over 60 or in any way has a compromised immune system, you probably ought to chalk this one up to experience, chuck the meat and start over.


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## boykjo

I wouldnt chuck it... Smoke away.... Chef jimmyj is our resident food safety expert and I have read that its a little forgiving with whole meats. Hopefully he will chime in. I'll shoot him a pm to look over your post......


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## gitterson

Hey all.  Thanks for the replies.  A couple of things:

The butt was in the (cryo?) pack longer than the ribs.  It was still on the table, but probably only 2 1/2 hours out of the package.  That would *likely* keep it cooler longer.

To try to answer some questions:

Yes, it came from the fridge.

Butt rub is:

5 TBS black pepper

1/4 cup turbinado

3 TBS paprika

2 TBS kosher salt

1 TBS dry mustard

2 Tsp onion powder

1 Tsp cayenne

The butt got to 140 internal after 6 hours total (3 on counter, 3 in smoker).

I've had the most success with unnaturally high smoke temps for butts (I go to at least 202, up to 208 BEFORE resting).

I *absolutely* made a boneheaded move by putting the probe in there.  Unfortunately, with a WSM, it's kind of a pain to get down there and probe it after a few hours.  *sigh*

I don't expect any guests under 5 or over 60.  It's mostly 20 and 30 somethings.  There will be a few older folks scattered in, but probably not quite to that range.

...and David, I *will* drop by roll call.  :)  Thanks.

JB


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## gitterson

....the next question is, if I go forward with it:

What do I do?

Should I refrigerate IMMEDIATELY and warm them up faster than I normally would?  I usually do 250-270 for a couple of hours to warm it up.

Thanks.

JB


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## bama bbq

IMHO cooking pasteurizes the meat and makes it safe to eat. After you cook it, and you leave it out, and  it falls into the danger zone, and you eat it, you become at risk.


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## gitterson

Ok, the ribs are off.  Slightly overdone unfortunately (though still pulling and not falling).

I had a bone and my brother ate a bone.  If we're not tossing chunks by tomorrow, we should be ok...yeah, I know - that's no measure of safety.  :)

I put them right in the fridge.  In theory, that would keep them below the danger zone fastest.....right?  I hope it doesn't disturb the resting process - I've never put them right in the fridge.

JB


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## daveomak

JB, evening.....  well, you have learned something today.....   Take a rack out, prep it, put it back in the refer....  same for the other cuts of meat...   The 4 hour rule starts when you put the meat in the cart at the grocery store, through the line, in the car, on the kitchen counter, into the refer or freezer....   all of that time, the surface is above 40 and bacteria is multiplying.....     Just so you know.....   

Dave


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## gitterson

Indeed Dave, lesson learned. I'd have rather learned it with...say, a package of chicken legs.  :)

I *think* I'm going to let the shoulder finish out, pull it and freeze it for myself.  If it *did* turn, at least it will be only me that finds out.  If it did NOT, then I have a whole mess of lunches for the next 3 months.  :)

Anyone in the greater Detroit area?  I've got 40 pounds of meat to smoke by Saturday!  Bring your smoker over and let's have a party....

JB


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## themule69

I HAVE TO ASK............WHY DID YOU ASK THE QUESTION?????  YOU ALREADY KNEW THE ANSWER..........NOW YOUR GOING TO SERVE IT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






....6+ HOURS IN THE DANGER ZONE.....DOG FOOD TO YOUR GUEST?????

why????........THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF YES PEOPLE...........YES IT MIGHT BE OK.........YES IT IS A BUNCH OF MONEY...........TRASH IT!!!

DO YOUR GUEST IN JOY FOOD POISING???

David


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## themule69

boykjo said:


> I wouldnt chuck it... Smoke away.... Chef jimmyj is our resident food safety expert and I have read that its a little forgiving with whole meats. Hopefully he will chime in. I'll shoot him a pm to look over your post......


Why would you post this? food saftey is number 1
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





David


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## daveomak

themule69 said:


> I HAVE TO ASK............WHY DID YOU ASK THE QUESTION?????  YOU ALREADY KNEW THE ANSWER..........NOW YOUR GOING TO SERVE IT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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> ....6+ HOURS IN THE DANGER ZONE.....DOG FOOD TO YOUR GUEST?????
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> why????........THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF YES PEOPLE...........YES IT MIGHT BE OK.........YES IT IS A BUNCH OF MONEY...........TRASH IT!!!
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> DO YOUR GUEST IN JOY FOOD POISING???
> 
> David


David, evening.......    we all realize food safety is Number 1 here...    we can't force folks to be food safety conscious....  Some stuff you just have to say, "I tried"..... know what I mean... 

Gitterson learned a valuable lesson and seems amenable to making adjustment in how he treats raw meats..   Cool.....   I think we have a new ally in the battle against food borne illness...   *Gitterson, evening..... welcome to the "Food Safety is Number One" group....*

Dave


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## s2k9k

themule69, that is a very rude way of greeting a new member! He had only been a member for 7 1/2 hours and you start yelling (yes when you type in all caps it indicates yelling) at him and basically said he was stupid for asking the question. He joined this forum because he had a serious question about food safety and you start yelling at him. This will not be tolerated on SMF.
Then you try and call out a very experienced moderator who told the OP to go ahead and smoke it while he contacted our resident food safety expert to give advice. And then want to mention rules, you probably need to reread the forum rules. 
If you want to comment on food safety then you need to cite facts and not just yell at someone and give disparaging comments like "why did you even ask the question?" He asked because he did not know the answer and was looking for help, he wasn't looking to get yelled at!

An official warning will be given later today for this action.


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## gitterson

David-

Before going to town on me, I wish you would have actually read what I wrote:

"I *think* I'm going to let the shoulder finish out, pull it and freeze it for myself.  If it *did* turn, at least it will be only me that finds out.  If it did NOT, then I have a whole mess of lunches for the next 3 months."

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Did you not understand this?  If I even finish cooking it, I'm going to freeze it for MYSELF.  [/color]

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]I went on to say that I had 40 pounds of meat to smoke by Saturday...as in, I'm buying more and smoking it instead of serving yesterday's questionable meat.[/color]

Wowzers.

JB


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## turnandburn

food safety is a touchy subject, theres tons of talks about it as youve seen...it IS important but not all of us have the same immune systems..i myself am an owner of an iron stomach, theres not too much if anything that will make me sick. i personally dont live word for word out of a food safety handbook, but thats just me. i think it really boils down to how confident you are in your methods or your cook, pair that with a few helpful pointers from folks here on the forum and im sure youll make the right decision. only you'll know the answer in the end, all we can do is help you along the way. good luck with your smokin endeavors and welcome aboard! have fun!


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## mdboatbum

JB,

it's always a good idea to err on the side of caution. I think you and you and your brother will be ok with the ribs as they were likely out of the danger zone within 4 hours since they take so little time to reach 140˚ once they hit the cooker. As for the butt, like I said, I would be ok with it as it's JUST outside the parameters of safe handling. If it had been out all night, or in a fridge that died at an unknown time, or left in a hot car, then yes, it would need to go. Your decision to prepare fresh meat for your guests, however,  is a sound one will take any worry out of the event.

As you've witnessed, people can get pretty passionate about things here at SMF. This is one of the friendliest forums I've ever seen and the mods do a great job of keeping it that way. This thread is a perfect example of the spirit of this place. It's one of the few examples I've seen of things getting a little heated, yet the reason for it was primarily a concern for the safety of you and your guests. I hope you'll stick around and continue participating in the discussions here at SMF. There is a ton of great info, and I've learned more about smoking and cooking in general here than just about anywhere else. Plus, I've "met" a lot of really great people.


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## gitterson

Ok, last question here...I think.  :)

A (documented) mistake I made was pressing the probe in at the onset, potentially pushing any bacteria from the surface into the meat.  

With everything in mind that is represented in this thread, I wonder if I can just cut (rather than pull) about an inch inward from the bark on all sides (except the fat cap).  Would I (again, in theory) have safe meat on the outer edge?  For all intents and purposes, the outside of the shoulder would have come up to temp quickly (POSSIBLY under, surely NEAR the 4 hour mark).  If bacteria gets to the center, does it get "all over" after that?

Thanks everyone.  All in all, this has been a good experience for me.  There are, let's call them "passionate", folks on every forum.  The fact that the moderators keep a handle on it is a big bonus for the SMF.  Thanks to all for your help.

JB


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## turnandburn

once youve pushed it in, its in there bud. i really wouldnt worry yourself with it, but its up to you, since youre buying fresh anyways and starting over id say dont worry yourself with cutting the meat and just let er' roll for ol times sake..lol. again, thats just me. then again, im cheap..lmao...i just cant sit idly while a good piece of meat goes to fido...


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## chef jimmyj

Geez guys! Take it easy...We are talking Pork, the industry is well documented as going above and beyond to make sure there is no contamination of the meat. Yes there still may be bacteria but this was not ground or injected only probed, AFTER A SALTY RUB was applied. Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208*F. Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F. There is absolutely NO reason to not serve this meat!!! As far as the Ribs go...As much as possible we like to have them in the danger zone during Prep no more than 2 hours, but that is a GUIDELINE! An extra hour with the application of a Salty Rub will make NO difference, any surface Bacteria was most likely killed. Anything that survived the salt was wiped out MINUTES not hours, after it went in the Smoker and thorough cooking killed anything the Probe MAY have pushed in.

Safety is very important but as I have posted MANY times before, more than ONE mistake has to be made or other major problem has to occur before Bacteria have a chance to cause any damage. The OP made one very small mistake! If he stopped at a Bar on the way home from the Grocery for a few hours, or, the smoker died for an unknown time period, or, the Refer died, or, he had Puss Dripping Soars all over his hands....Then there would be something to worry about! Salt and Heat protects us from a number of Safety Sins!...No one here has ever Coughed, Sneezed, dripped Sweat on the meat, pushed their Hair out of their eyes, scratched their Nose, Face, Arm or any other Body part while prepping food? Do let you Wife, Kids or anyone else in the Kitchen while you Prep. They all Talk. Cough, Sneeze and Breathe around the meat! Do you all wear a Mask yourself, wear Gloves on hands AFTER a thorough washing with Hot Water and Soap? Do you break out a New Cutting Board each time you start prepping your meat? All these cause potential issues from Bacterial Contamination! There is ALWAYS a risk that the meat was not handled properly by the Slaughter House, the Butcher or Grocery Store. Do you all take Ice Chests to the Grocery Store? The point is as long as you are aware of potential problems and you limit what YOU do wrong, then Cook at and to proper temps, there is VERY LITTLE risk of food borne illness. You all have to take What you do after cooking as well. The USDA recommends reheating in Simmering Water or at temps over 325*F. Cooked Food should not be at room temp for service more than two hours unless kept hot or iced and hot food needs to be Cooled and Refrigerated to temps below 80*F in 1.5-2 hours and below 40*F in <6 hours.NEVER put HOT food in a Refer or Freezer!!! This warms the environment and puts ALL THE OTHER FOOD in the danger Zone for some period of time. It is better and perfectly safe to cool wrapped or covered foods on the counter for 2 hours before going in the Refer. Always reduce the physical sice of hot items. Pull the Butts, or put large quantities of liquids into smaller containers. There is no need for Paranoia, just have an understanding of how Bacteria can affect you, be Safe and limit the number of Mistakes. Lastly don't post a response unless you have a thorough understanding of Safety, Sanitation, and Food Borne Illness including all the preventive measures! Incorrect, limited, vague or paranoid responses wastes money by causing people to throw out perfectly good food. Any further questions, feel free to PM me...JJ

Update: I was taught that foods should be cooled to below 70* in 2 hours and 140*F in 4 hours. The latest LESS STRINGENT USDA/FSIS Guidelines have been posted above...JJ


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## daveomak

Hey JJ, evening..... Well, it sounds like you just re wrote the book on food safety, that we have been preaching for awhile now...  You even contradict what the FSIS (Food Safety Inspection Service) recommends.....  

I think I will stick with the FSIS and keep recommending what is written in their manuals....     

You probably have some very good reasons for what you posted.... I know you are trained in food safety and were an instructor...  I'm not saying you are in error or anything like that.....  My recollection is we were sticking with Government Guidelines when it came to food safety when making recommendations to members....

Now, I don't know [email protected] about food safety except what I read in the Government manuals.... Soooo, I am far, very far from an expert or a novice...  I'm just another joe-blow that likes to read alot......  

Dave


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## chef jimmyj

Dave, I am not infallible and the government changes or updates there guidelines constantly. Please post which FSIS guideline you say I have gone against? I have no issue or problem correcting a mistake...JJ


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## daveomak

JJ, evening....  Since you are the Moderator in charge of "Food Safety" here, I thought it really weird you would post contrary to us and folks that write the papers on food safety....   The  points below are  probably really nit-picking but food safety is number one around here...  I could be in err trying to interpret the regs....  I been wrong before and will be again, I'm sure......     Dave

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208**F
https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/f/fe/fe9779d2_Danger_Zone40-140.pdf
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is0734.htm

Botulism (Bacterial Foodborne Illness): Causes, Symptoms, and Control

*What Causes It*
Clostridium botulinum. Spore-forming organisms that grow and produce toxin in the absence of oxygen, such as in a sealed container. Spores are extremely heat resistant. Spores are harmless, but the toxin is a deadly poison.

Symptoms
Double vision, inability to swallow, speech difficulty, progressive respiratory paralysis. Fatality rate is high, in the United States about 65 percent.

Characteristics of Illness
Transmitted by eating food containing the toxin. Onset: Usually within 12 to 36 hours or longer.

Duration: 3 to 6 days.

Control Measures

*Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F.*

Bacterial spores in food are destroyed by high temperatures obtained only in the pressure canner. 

More than 6 hours is needed to kill the spores at boiling temperature (212 °F). 

The toxin is destroyed by boiling for 10 to 20 minutes; time required depends on kind of food.


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## themule69

Ok I am rude. I don't know why they put out food saftey rules??? I guess for the fun of it!

happy smoken.

David


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## chef jimmyj

Dave this is a typical case of a member has a small deviation from the " Guidelines " And those with some level of knowledge jumps all over the guy telling him he should toss " the highly Bacterial infested " meat in the garbage without a clue about the common types of Bacteria, Bacterial growth, the Phases of growth, how that Bacteria causes illness, under what circumstances, by what means and corrective measures. People should never be told to Waste food unless ALL the facts are taken into consideration! There are USDA guidelines and Fact Sheets that are posted for the General Public which by design are simply written and general with, " a lot of built in precaution." It is for this reason we at SMF follow and quote these guidelines but it is just that a Guideline. The info you posted does not take into consideration the type of food, size of the food, how it was handled before prep, if any Antibacterial agents are being applied, Salt, Vinegar, etc., how warm the product actually got, how soon it was cooked after deviation and to what final IT. To make my point, the USDA info says no more than 2 hours in the Danger Zone, it is a good reference point and very safe if that is the only Food Safety Education one has. But Culinary Education, an in depth study of Food Safety and Sanitation and owning/managing several Restaurants that were Inspected with regulatory compliance mandatory, requires that I know and follow this...

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm186451.htm
[h4]3-501.19 Time as a Public Health Control.[/h4]
(A) Except as specified under ¶ (D) of this section, if time without temperature control is used as the public health control for a working supply of potentially hazardous food  (time/temperature control for safety food) before cooking, or for ready-to-eat potentially hazardous food  (time/temperature control for safety food) that is displayed or held for sale or service:
(1) Written procedures shall be prepared in advance, maintained in the food establishment  and made available to the regulatory authority  upon request that specify: Pf
(a) Methods of compliance with Subparagraphs (B)(1) -(3) or C)(1)-(5) of this section;  Pf  and
(b) Methods of compliance with § 3-501.14 for food  that is prepared, cooked, and refrigerated before time is used as a public health control. Pf



(B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 4 hours:
(1) The food  shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from cold holding temperature control, or 57°C (135°F) or greater when removed from hot holding temperature control; P
(2) The food  shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate the time that is 4 hours past the point in time when the food  is removed from temperature control; Pf
(3) The food  shall be cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat, or discarded, within 4 hours from the point in time when the food  is removed from temperature control; P  and
(4) The food  in unmarked containers or packages,  or marked to exceed a 4-hour limit shall be discarded. P


_*Time – maximum up to 6 hours*_
(C) If time without temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 6 hours:
(1) The food  shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from temperature control and the food  temperature may not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) within a maximum time period of 6 hours; P
(2) The food  shall be monitored to ensure the warmest portion of the food  does not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) during the 6-hour period, _unless an ambient air temperature is maintained that ensures thefood  does not exceed 21ºC (70ºF) during the 6-hour holding period_; Pf
(3) The food  shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate:  Pf
(a) The time when the food  is removed from 5ºC (41ºF) or less cold holding temperature control, Pf  and
(b) The time that is 6 hours past the point in time when the food  is removed from cold holding temperature control; Pf

(4) The food  shall be:
(a)  Discarded if the temperature of the food  exceeds 21°C (70°F), P  or
(b)  Cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat,  or discarded within a maximum of 6 hours from the point in time when the food  is removed from 5ºC (41ºF) or less cold holding temperature control; P  and

(5) The food  in unmarked containers or packages,  or marked with a time that exceeds the 6-hour limit shall be discarded. P

(D) A food establishment  that serves a highly susceptible population  may not use time as specified under ¶¶ (A), (B) or (C) of this section as the public health control for raw eggs.
This is the regulation that specifies how long the " Working Supply " of Protein can be " Out of Refrigeration " to be cut, trimmed, portioned, etc. before cooking we call this Prep Time. This section of Regulation has been Incorrectly posted as the basis of " The 4 Hour Rule ". It is not. There is no reference to cooking time or temp specification to a given IT, but according to my predecessor, it was considered in devising the four hour rule, as was the 2 Hour Guideline of the USDA, recommended cooking Temps and Internal temps. Also referenced were several other Professional Texts.

Dave the second batch of info and source while accurate is some what incomplete and only talks about Home Canning. There are other factors to take into consideration in this case. While the probe may have pushed C. Botulinum Bacteria or Spores into the meat, the bacteria was killed at 165*F and the spores take DAYS to germinate and produce dangerous levels of Toxin not a couple of hours. I could not copy the relevant charts but see pages 17-20 of this in depth link... http://www.ifr.ac.uk/info/science/foodbornepathogens/docs/Final_project_report0707.pdf   

Regarding the Denaturing of the Toxin, if any formed, this happens at temperatures as low as 170*F in as little as 10 minutes of exposure. See chart page 387 of this link... http://aem.asm.org/content/36/2/386.full.pdf   So my Badass comment was not only accurate but contained a level of built in precaution.

It is not my intent to Brag, make any member feel inadequate for their knowledge or offend anyone. The Staff and many Members here are well versed on Food Safety and 99% of the time make the right call...But it is the Gray Areas like these," it took a little long to Prep ", " The Smoker Temp went below 225 for X hours ", " I injected or probed the raw Butt and it took X hours instead of 4 to get to 140*F " and a few other situations, that take more in depth knowledge and looking at the entire situation before responding," Toss the meat out! "  Answering these question/problems is the reason Jeff asked me to be Safety Moderator and the reason I spend countless hours on this Forum. Thanks Joe for bringing this one to my attention and if anyone has a doubt, Please contact me or JarJarChef whom is also similarly trained...JJ


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## s2k9k

themule69 said:


> Ok I am rude. I don't know why they put out food saftey rules??? I guess for the fun of it!
> happy smoken.
> David



You really need to watch how you word your posts. I suggest that you think real hard before you let your fingers touch your keyboard.

And like JJ said in post #22, "don't post a response unless you have a thorough understanding of Safety, Sanitation, and Food Borne Illness including all the preventive measures", so if you can't state facts then you probably shouldn't state anything at all!


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## dcarch

Botulism gets a lot of attention, but:

“botulism ------- However, only four of the seven known BT types (A, B, E, and F) cause human botulism. One of the most deadly known toxins, estimates indicate that approximately 70 one millionths of a gram can kill an average adult. However, of the approximate 140 cases per year in the U.S., there are usually only 1-3 deaths. “

OTOH:

“CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of food borne diseases. “

Traffic fatalities - 33,808

Firearm fatalities – 32,000

dcarch


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## jbomx363

Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling". 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Use common sense and you'll be fine.


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## mdboatbum

I guess I fall into the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" category. My recommendation to chuck the meat "if anyone on the guest list is under 5, over 60 or in any way has a compromised immune system," was based on the fact that :

A.) I was going completely on what the OP said without any more knowledge of the specific condition of the meat or those who would be consuming it and:

B.) The fact that certain portions of our population are MUCH more susceptible to even low levels of bacterial contamination than your average healthy adult.

Case in point. Last year my wife, her parents and I were traveling up the coast. We stopped for the night on Ocracoke Island. It was early April and the season was quite a few weeks away from kicking in. Since we'd been on the road all day and none of us felt like going out to dinner, my wife and I walked down the street to a restaurant and ordered 2 chicken Caesar salads for carryout. They were huge so we split them 4 ways. In other words, we all ate exactly the same thing from the same source. Next morning both my in-laws, aged 76 and 94 were sick as can be. The whole gamut, sweats, chills, vomiting and diarrhea. My wife and I, both reasonably healthy 40 somethings, were completely fine.

Now I've worked in beach towns and I know that in the early part of the season conditions aren't always optimal. Business is slow and dollars need to be stretched. Perhaps the chicken was a few days past its sell by date, or the dressing was a little long in the tooth, who knows? It all looked and smelled fine, and I'm assuming any abuses of time and temperature controls were fairly minor. All I know is that "margin for error" built into the food safety code gets thinner and thinner for folks the older they get.

Long and short is, I'd rather be guilty of advising that someone waste potentially safe food than advising they eat or serve potentially dangerous food.

Given the nature of the subject, however, I think in the future I'll keep my mouth shut and let the experts give out the advice.


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## chef jimmyj

jbomx363 said:


> Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling".
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Bacteria is a Very Real issue and time in the Danger Zone is an important subject. If you ever have the misfortune of Food Poisoning, you will pay a great deal of attention to Food Safety. I once spent 5 days sleeping on the Bathroom floor because I spent every half hour or so emptying my Guts from Both Ends. It was 20 years ago and several years before I was trained in food safety. I went to the local Pizza joint and ordered a pizza with extra garlic. When I arrived to pick up the pizza I asked if it had the extra Garlic. The owner said no, he forgot, he opened the box pulled a container of Garlic in Olive Oil from under a shelf, at room temp, and spread a couple spoon fulls over the pizza. I took it home and ate 4 slices, my wife had a Sub Sandwich. About 6 hours later I had the worst cramps of my life and the explosive gut emptying started. I have never been sicker in my life! The family Dr. determined it was Salmonella and the restaurant was shut down for improper food storage and handling. Some time later the place reopened but business never recovered and he sold the restaurant...JJ


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## dcarch

Do you remember the first astronauts? A few days in space with no gravity, and their muscles got so atrophied they were unable to stand up or walk when they returned to earth.

You immune system is the same, if you don’t make them work for a living, you will get weaker and weaker.

Respect all health sanitary recommendations and guidelines, but do be a little flexible based on your life experience.

dcarch


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## daveomak

Chef JJ, Morning.....   Well, this is my last question...... Promise.......  Looking at the food safety statement you posted below.....

Would it be safe to assume that food (meats, vegetables, stews, soups etc.) that we want to can at home, is safe from all forms of bacteria, pathogens, botulisms etc. if we use the "water bath" method...  That cooks food at 212 deg F for a given time.... 

I am so confused about the different regulations, I will never post again about food safety.....  

Telling folks to throw out food that could be safe to eat, or go ahead and eat the food "it is safe", and have them or their loved ones get ill....   I'm totally done with food safety....

For now, I will stick with mathematics..... at least I don't think they have changed the rules on that.....  except I heard 3 x 4 can = 11... and you are not wrong..

From post # 22.........

_Even though the meat was out 3 hours and took 3 hours to get over 140*F, it was cooked to 208*F. Even a Badass Bacteria like those that cause Botulism was killed and it's deadly Toxin was destroyed at 200*F. There is absolutely NO reason to not serve this meat!!!_


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## jbomx363

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Bacteria is a Very Real issue and time in the Danger Zone is an important subject. If you ever have the misfortune of Food Poisoning, you will pay a great deal of attention to Food Safety. I once spent 5 days sleeping on the Bathroom floor because I spent every half hour or so emptying my Guts from Both Ends. It was 20 years ago and several years before I was trained in food safety. I went to the local Pizza joint and ordered a pizza with extra garlic. When I arrived to pick up the pizza I asked if it had the extra Garlic. The owner said no, he forgot, he opened the box pulled a container of Garlic in Olive Oil from under a shelf, at room temp, and spread a couple spoon fulls over the pizza. I took it home and ate 4 slices, my wife had a Sub Sandwich. About 6 hours later I had the worst cramps of my life and the explosive gut emptying started. I have never been sicker in my life! The family Dr. determined it was Salmonella and the restaurant was shut down for improper food storage and handling. Some time later the place reopened but business never recovered and he sold the restaurant...JJ


I'm not discounting it. I surely don't want to be responsible for tummy aches and in your case above, much worse.

I've read a ton (USDA site is filled with info, especially on 7D kill rates and depth penetration of pathogens on beef, poultry, pork, etc.), contacted you and others on specific scenarios and questions enough to form my own opinions. 

I understand the sites rules and legal position on the subject, which is why I'll be quiet now.


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## diggingdogfarm

So then, folks are to ignore the USDA's safety rules for home cooking because there are other often much more liberal rules for commercial food prep and our food safety expert insists it's okay even though home cooks aren't preparing foods under ALL the same stringent rules as commercial kitchens?

When it comes to the USDA's rules for safe food handling at home, how is one (I have the inexperienced in mind here) supposed to know that to ignore and what not to ignore?

I think it's encouraging those with little experience to take unnecessary risks.

Is that what the official stance is here now?

*"Bacteria grow most rapidly in the range of temperatures 
between 40 ° and 140 °F, doubling in number in as 
little as 20 minutes. This range of temperatures is often 
called the “Danger Zone.” That’s why the Meat and 
Poultry Hotline advises consumers to never leave food 
out of refrigeration over 2 hours. If the temperature is 
above 90 °F, food should not be left out more than 1 
hour."*

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...andling/how-temperatures-affect-food/ct_index
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf

Take it or leave it.

~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm

Another point, there's absolutely no reason why a bunch of meat should set out on a counter at room temperature for 3 or more hours, or even 2 hours, or even one hour in a home setting, that's just not good practice, why encourage it?
Keep cold foods cold and hot foods hot.


~Martin


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## mdboatbum

I don't think anyone is suggesting ignoring anything. From a real world perspective, a single mistake during the preparation of food does not make the food poisonous. I believe all that Chef Jimmy was suggesting is that folks use their heads and form a reasonable decision based on their experience and the particular situation. The OP knows the situation much better than me and is, in the end, responsible for any decisions he makes. I may have been quick to suggest chucking the meat if it was to be served to older or younger people, but  MY experience tells me that their immune system is different than mine and care should be taken.

JJ offered a real world suggestion based on known facts, his experience, and industry guidelines. The fact that he didn't just regurgitate gov-speak is a testament to his experience and real world understanding of food safety.

In the end, the most important ingredient in safe food is your brain. Use it and the odds of poisoning your family and friends go way down.


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## arnie

jbomx363 said:


> Quite frankly.. I view this danger zone....similar to the "sky is falling".
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Unfortunately you cannot regulate common sense. Just look around and go checkout Morons In The News.

I have to agree with Martin. It just ain’t worth getting sick over. When in doubt toss it out


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## diggingdogfarm

The point is, not everyone tuning in has tons of experience, hence the importance of being very conservative when making recommendations.
There are reasons why the USDA guidelines for home cooking are very conservative.
I know what I would personally do in a situation like this, but it's not necessarily what I'd recommend to others.


~Martin


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## jarjarchef

WOW!!!!

Glitterson I hope this does not deter you from continuing on your BBQ/Smoking journey. As you can see there are so many opinions and view points to be had and looked at. Bottom line what everyone is trying to do in their own way is look out for you and your guest safety. When you get back to your original question about the time the food was in the TDZ and how to cool and reheat it safely.

Well the cooking part was done and beat to death. Yes it was on the counter a bit long, so counting the time the meat left the fridge the outside was in the TDZ for 4-5 hrs (the center got to 140 after 6hrs, but the outside was there quicker). As for the topic of inserting the probe at the start or the middle. That to be honest is a personal thing. Some say it can push bacteria into the center so they insert later. Others don't worry about it and insert it after serializing it. I personally will insert mine at the start. In the future I would try to cut down on the prep time and or cook at a bit higher temp in the start to get to 140 faster, then back off and allow the low and slow do its thing.

I saw no one address the cooling and reheating subject. For me that is where most of the issues are likely to happen.

When I do large cooks it depends on what the end result is needed. Am I going to freeze for later use or am I cooling to reheat later.

Freezing: I will put about 5# of of the pulled pork into a 1 gallon freezer bag and push out as much air as possible. After I have portioned the meat I will lay it flat in my fridge not stacked to allow it to cool to below 40 degrees. According to Florida State Health Inspectors you have 6 hrs from the time it goes below 140 to get to below 40. I personally try to do this in 2hrs, I think 6hrs is too long.

Saving for later bulk use: It is pretty much the same as above, however you are not putting it into freezer bags. You want as shallow of a pan as you can get. I try to use nothing deeper than 2". Place the pan in your fridge with plenty of air flow. I do not put mine into the fridge when it is very hot. You still have the same time frame as before. Again I try to be at around 2hrs. I find I need to mix the pulled pork a few times to achieve this.

Reheating: Simply you have 2 hrs to go from <40 to >165. I prefer for smaller amounts to use a saute pan and a bit of sauce to reheat it quickly. For larger amounts I will place in a preheated oven covered with some sauce/liquid. I tend to start at 300 degrees and adjust after about an hour.

For the last 18+ years of my career the company I work for follows HACCP Guidelines. That is what I live a die by for work and at home. The 40-140 in under 4hrs is a great guide to use for your cooks. As it states on the opening page for the Food Safety section it is not written in anything other then what is supported and recommended by this site. So you do have some wiggle room, but it is at your discretion and only yours too how much wiggle room you choose to use. As you have seen you will get some passion on both sides of the fence.


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## bama bbq

Ahhhh... another entertaining thread on food safety. I recall some other pationate threads with the same subject in the past. Deja Vu.


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## chef jimmyj

Once again, my statement has Nothing to do with Canning but since you keep bringing it up, I will re-read the information I posted above and post the relevant portion... I don't know much about Home Canning but I can say that more than one report indicated that Reheating home canned foods would eliminate any Toxin. The following is taken from the information in the second link on Page 387 in reference to the Chart indicating the Temps and Time at which Botulinum Toxins are Destroyed and another Chart that laid out the effect on Toxin destruction at various Ph levels...

The heat resistance of toxin produced in the

beef broth and heated without further treatment

compared with toxin adjusted to pH 5.0 was

marked. The toxin at pH 6.8 was inactivated in

3 min at 800C (176°F), and the data yielded a

heat inactivation curve with a slope of 5.40C

(9.70F). The toxin at pH 5.0 was inactivated in

8 min at 80°F (176°F) and yielded a heat inactivation curve with a slope of 4.60C (8.20F).

Is it a good idea to disregard C.Botulinum in home canning and not use Pressure Canning to kill CB Spores even though the toxin can be eliminated by reheating...NO...Not only would that be ridiculous but there are canned food like the Relish and Pickles that are not reheated and would be Deadly. There are also forms of CB that not only generate Toxin but spoil the food and give off a foul odor. This info and more is available with a Search of  " Clostridium Botulinum " or " at what temperature is Clostridium Botulinum Toxin Denatured " there is a lot more info on Botulism just like like those I already posted. There is way more out there on the subject than that which is found on Home Canning sites. If there is anything else you wish for me to teach you about Food Safety, feel free to continue asking questions. That is what I am here for...JJ


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## dls1

After reading this thread in it's entirety, I have a headache. That's the bad news.

The good news is that after considering many of the things that I have eaten in 100+ countries over the past 5 decades, when it comes to food safety practices, I really should have been dead a long time ago, but I'm not. I think I deserve a good bottle of champagne to celebrate.


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## daveomak

OK, I got it.....  To make food safe, using the guidelines you suggested, all we need to do is adjust the pH.....   Well, that makes perfect sense to us folks at home.....    Thanks for the heads up.......

Dave


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## chef jimmyj

Martin, My responses are based purely on the OP's post and the frequent posts that just say," Toss it out " without a complete evaluation of the circumstances. There are USDA Guidelines and FDA Regulations and being a Newbie or just a home cook does not negate their obligation to know all the facts. There is the Long way, reading page after page of Reports, Fact Sheets and Analytical Dissertations. Or spend 2-4 years in a Culinary School followed by many years of Restaurant Management. Then there is the Short way, come to a Forum like this and ask your question. There is more than one means to an end...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm

Chef JimmyJ said:


> There are USDA Guidelines and FDA Regulations and being a Newbie or just a home cook does not negate their obligation to know all the facts. There is the Long way, reading page after page of Reports, Fact Sheets and Analytical Dissertations. Or spend 2-4 years in a Culinary School followed by many years of Restaurant Management. Then there is the Short way, come to a Forum like this and ask your question. There is more than one means to an end...JJ




We're talking home cooking here, not "professional" cooking.
The reality is that 99% of folks will never study the official rules and guidelines. 
I was simply pointing out the fact that home cooking rules are conservative for that reason.
Sure, if someone has all their ducks in a row, there's little risk of food poisoning, but that's a BIG assumption.
We have no idea what the initial pathogenic or spoilage organism load is, if thermometers are accurate and I know for a fact that not everyone's concept of time is the same.
So, I think it's wise to follow the USDA's home food safety recommendations and not push the limits.

~Martin


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## chef jimmyj

DiggingDogFarm said:


> We're talking home cooking here, not "professional" cooking.
> The reality is that 99% of folks will never study the official rules and guidelines.
> I was simply pointing out the fact that home cooking rules are conservative for that reason.
> Sure, if someone has all their ducks in a row, there's little risk of food poisoning, but that's a BIG assumption.
> We have no idea what the initial pathogenic or spoilage organism load is, if thermometers are accurate and I know for a fact that not everyone's concept of time is the same.
> So, I think it's wise to follow the USDA's home food safety recommendations and not push the limits.
> 
> ~Martin


Martin I agree to a point, I just can't get in line with the Toss it Out crowd in gray areas without evaluation of the circumstances beyond a conservative Guideline. You are educated regarding Cure application and often go into further detail than the basic Guideline of 1tsp per 5Lb of Meat. There really is no difference here...JJ


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