# Comparison of Salmon curing methods



## wade

There has been a lot of discussion on here recently about curing methods for salmon. Different methods have been tried by different people and there have been different views as to the saltiness of each. As everyones assessment of the level of salt will be subjective and different people have different salt tolerances, next weekend I plan on getting 50 x 140g (5oz) skinless salmon fillets to perform a direct comparison between the different curing methods.

To make this a true comparison of the individual curing methods I intend to take each up to the same point before cooking them in an identical way and doing a side by side blind taste comparison.

A number of you have shared your curing and smoking methods with us over the last few weeks/months and so if any of you would like me to specifically include your method(s) of curing in the trial please can you reply with the definitive method that you use. Whether it is a wet or dry brine, the amount of type of salt and sugar used, the amount of brine in contact with the fish and for how long etc.

If I do not get sufficient responses I will trawl back through recent posts and then let people know whose cure method I am using. If I get too many responses I will unfortunately have to be selective and similar methods of curing may have to be combined. I would be looking for a maximum of 5 different cures as this will give me a good sample of 10 salmon fillets per cure.

As different peoples tastes vary I will refrain from rating the different methods as "good" or "bad" but will simply rank them in order of detectable saltiness along with appropriate comments.


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## wade

To help make the reviewing of this challenge as fair and objective as possible, 4 professional chefs have agreed to be part of the blind judging panel.


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## atomicsmoke

Will this be for hot (cooked) smoked salmon or smoked lox?


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## wade

Hi Atomicsmoke

Everyone finishes their salmon in different ways so this is really a simple direct comparison to test the levels of residual salt after the cure. To do this all fillets will subsequently be cold smoked for an identical period of time (~8 hours) and then cooked at 180 C (350 F) for 12 minutes. I am trying to avoid the effects of any rubs/marinades/caramelising from deflecting the judges from assessing the salt content. With this information I am hoping that others will be able to then select the curing method that best suits their preferred method of finishing.

I was not planning on simply cold smoking however the basics of the initial cure are the same. With cold smoked salmon though you can tolerate significantly higher salt levels in the end product as it is usually served in much thinner slices. As part of the comparison I will also test the fillets for overall moisture loss during the cure to see how effective they would be as a start for producing a cold smoked salmon (lox).

Wade


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## themule69

Wade

It sounds like a interesting  experiment. Since I don't do much fish all I can do is watch.

Happy smoken.

David


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## daveomak

Wade, evening....   4 chefs and you tasting......  take 5 filets @ 5 oz. ea..   =  28.35 gms/oz. x 5 oz. x 5 filets = 708 gms....  500 mls water = 500 gms.....    add 25 gms salt and 25 gms sugar  and 0.24 gms nitrite...  or 3.86 gms cure #1  (200 Ppm)...   Here, salmon is recommended at 200 Ppm nitrite... 
Cover the fish in the brine/cure for 24 hours at 38-40 deg. F or 4 deg. C...    I do have a "no salt spice mix", I get at Costco, that I save for my smoked fish...   If you are just testing for "base" flavor, that's my 2% salt/sugar for all my fish...   I use white cane sugar... and pickling salt (kosher)...   If your tap water is hard or funky.....  use distilled water....  You could Sous Vide the portions ??????

I just got my Sous Vide immersion circulator and haven't tried salmon yet...   I hear it the best way to cook salmon...  add a  little butter to the bag...  maybe a dash of dill...  and a slice of onion and garlic...   maybe a drop or 2 of white wine...     I hope Bride is making dinner, I'm getting hungry....    

Dave


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## wade

Thanks Dave - That is a great start, thanks.

I am looking for a tasting panel of 6 or 7 to even out as much subjectivity as possible -  two will be myself and my wife, the 4 chefs have agreed and I will press gang one or two other friends. 5 fillets will be fine though as I am not expecting each taster to eat an entire fillet each.

I have everything I need for your brine recipe except for the distilled water. Ours is quite a hard water at home here so I will go get some distilled. I don't use Cure #1 here but I do have food grade sodium nitrite so I think we are good to go on this one


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## daveomak

I suggested the distilled water because the mild flavor of fish can be adulterated by the slightest thing, IF, you are a salmon lover....  Don't put lemon or any other condiment on the table with the fish.....   Folks that add lemon to salmon are not fish lovers in my book....  Kind of like drinking Jack and coke...    

WOW !!!!!  did I stray off of the path here....    :biggrin:


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## brayhaven

Wade. This is very interesting to me as I have had trouble getting my salmon too salty. It should give us some perspective if you try very different techniques and recipes. Brine times, fresh vs frozen etc. We can adapt to the fish we use whether frozen fresh, thick or thin. My first try of a recipe others used, my cat wouldn't eat. And she eats anything :) thanks for doing this. I'll look forward to your report. Greg


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## wade

That is a good idea Brayhaven. I think I may need to halve the number of fillets per sample and test each one both fresh and frozen. The fillets I am getting on Friday are all fresh so If I freeze some for each test for 48 hours at -20 C (-4 F) this may delay the results for a while but I think it will be worthwhile. It will be interesting how the freezing affects the overall moisture loss.


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## brayhaven

Good idea. The freezing process also changes the texture which seems to make the flesh absorb brine/salt more thoroughly and quickly. It might shorten cure time or favor a lower salt brine.


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## wade

*<<I have edited this post to shorten it as the information I have deleted has been duplicated in subsequent posts in this thread>>*

Great - we are under way. I will not have everything finish curing/smoking until tomorrow and the tasting/comparing will be early next week.

After various feedback and sifting through the recipes on here I narrowed the scope of this comparison down to 9 curing variations. As this is a comparison of the cures, for each method (except 1) I am curing 6 fillets of about the same size/shape and I am then going to smoke and cook them in identical ways.

The curing methods under way are:

1 - Dave Omak's recipe - thanks Dave

2 - The Wet Brine recipe from the link posted by fpmich. . "Smoking Salmon 101" with Herb Good

3 - The Dry Brine recipe from the link posted by fpmich. . "Smoking Salmon 101" with Herb Good

4 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 2:1, cured for 2 hours, fresh salmon

5 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 2:1, cured for 2 hours, frozen salmon

6 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 4:1, cured for 2 hours, fresh salmon

7 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 4:1, cured for 2 hours, frozen salmon

8 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 2:1, cured for 4 hours, fresh salmon

9 - Dry Brine, Sugar:Salt 4:1, cured for 4 hours, fresh salmon

All cures are under way. The first thing that I noticed is the loss in weight of the fish simply by freezing for 24 hours was consistent. For the 3 cure that are using frozen fish there was a consistent weight loss in each of between 1.95% - 2.54%

Photos to follow soon.

Post updated to show that the Sugar:Salt mixes were made in batches and then sufficient used in each case to cover the salmon.


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## brayhaven

Looking forward to your results Wade.  A lot of the recipes I see use @ a 4:1 sugar:salt ratio.  Like 6 & 7.  Some of those with a Kg of salt seems like a lot, but I guess it is only what's in contact with the filets..

Greg


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## wade

Thanks for pointing that our Greg - I think I need to update the list. Those quantities were not for each batch but for the stock batch of sugar:salt mix that was then split between the salmon batches.


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## wade

It is the end of the day and here is the story so far...

1 - Dave Omak's recipe - thanks Dave

FRESH Salmon fillets - 700g
Fine Salt - 25g
While cane sugar - 25g
Sodium Nitrite - 0.24g
Water - 500g
Cure time - 24 hours













1 DaveOmak start.jpg



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1 DaveOmak cure.jpg



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1 DaveOmak after cure.jpg



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When the fillets were initially removed from the brine they were very limp, were quite boated and were very pale. However after drying for several hours they firmed up considerably and began to develop a deeper orange colour (maybe due to the presence of nitrite?).

2 - The Wet Brine recipe from the link posted by fpmich. . "Smoking Salmon 101" with Herb Good

6 FRESH Salmon fillets
Light brown sugar - 1.5 cups
Rock Salt - 1 cup
Water - 2 US Quarts (64 fl ozs)
Cure time - 14 hours













2 101 Wet brine start.jpg



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2 101 Wet brine cure.jpg



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When the fillets were removed from the brine they were slightly firmer than before the cure and were quite pale in colour.

3 - The Dry Brine recipe from the link posted by fpmich. . "Smoking Salmon 101" with Herb Good

6 FROZEN Salmon fillets
Light brown sugar - 4 heaped cups
Fine Salt - 7/8 of a cup
Cure time - 14 hours













3 101 Dry brine start.jpg



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3 101 Dry brine Cure.jpg



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3 101 Dry brine end.jpg



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Over the course of the 14 hours the sugar:salt dry brine became a thick molasses-like liquid. When the fillets were removed and rinsed they were very stiff and were deep orange (almost brown) in colour.













2 3 rinsed.jpg



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4 - Dry Brine 2:1 for 2 hours Fresh

6 FRESH Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 2:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 1 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 2 hours













4 2-1 2hour fresh start.jpg



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4 5 2-1 2 hour cure 1.jpg



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5 - Dry Brine 2:1 for 2 hours Frozen

6 FROZEN Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 2:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 1 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 2 hours













5 2-1 2hour frozen start.jpg



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4 5 2-1 2 hour cure 2.jpg



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When the fillets were removed from the brine they were both quite firm and has a deep orange colour.













4 5 rinsed.jpg



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6 - Dry Brine 4:1 for 2 hours Fresh

6 FRESH Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 4:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 0.5 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 2 hours













6 4-1 2hour fresh start.jpg



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7 - Dry Brine 4:1 for 2 hours Frozen

6 FROZEN Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 4:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 0.5 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 2 hours













7 4-1 2hour frozen start.jpg



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6 7 4-1 2 hour cure 1.jpg



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6 7 4-1 2 hour cure 2.jpg



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When the fillets were removed from the brine they were both quite firm and has a deep orange colour.













6 7 rinsed.jpg



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8 - Dry Brine 2:1 for 4 hours Fresh

6 FRESH Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 2:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 1 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 4 hours
9 - Dry Brine 4:1 for 4 hours Fresh

6 FRESH Salmon fillets
Sugar:Salt 4:1 - Taken from stock batch of 2 Kg white cane sugar and 0.5 Kg sea salt
Cure time - 4 hours













8 9 - 4 hour cure 2.jpg



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When the fillets were removed from the brine they were both very firm and has a deeper orange colour than the 2 hour cured salmon.













8 rinsed.jpg



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9 rinsed.jpg



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Effect of each cure on weight

BatchCure typeInitial
weight gAfter
frozen gAfter
cure g  Cure %
loss              1Dave Omak700  751  -7.292101 Wet brine881  891  -1.143101 Dry brine861843727  15.5642:1 2 hours838  786  6.2152:1 2 hours870853802  7.8264:1 2 hours843  790  6.2974:1 2 hours905882828  8.5182:1 4 hours924  828  10.3994:1 4 hours896  802  10.49
All of the dry cures resulted in weight loss.

The 2 hour dry brines lost between 6.2%-8.5%. There was little difference between the suger:salt ratios at 2:1 or 4:1
The 4 hour dry brines lost ~ 10.4%  There was little difference between the suger:salt ratios at 2:1 or 4:1
The 14 hour 101 dry brine resulted in a weight loss of over 15.5%. This has almost reached the 18% needed for traditional cold smoked salmon
Dave's wet brine after 24 hours resulted in a weight increase of just over 7% whereas the 14 hour 101 Wet Brine showed a very small increase of just over 1%
Previously freezing and thawing the fish resulted in a slight increase in weight loss over fresh fish (~1%).
They are all air drying in the fridge tonight and will be smoked during the day tomorrow.


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## wade

After air drying in the fridge overnight













Salmon Display2.jpg



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It is now in the smoker - sorry about the tilt in the photo but I did not have much room for a straighter shot...













Smoker1.jpg



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## daveomak

When you get stuff finalized, if "colour" (for our UK/Canada friends) of the final product is a detractor, there is always "beet root" to tweak things....   Over here in Washington, all the Atlantic salmon is colored with it...


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## h2so4ca

I'm looking forward to what you find out.

Your #3 is very close to what I do. I have been smoking salmon for a long time ( About 35 years now ) my dad started me out

when I was in my early teens. And it's how he had been doing it for years before I was even around. 

I also find that smoking temp is very critical to the texture and flavor of the final product. 

I keep my salmon smoker temp at 140 -160 deg over alder wood , I bring it to a IT of 145 deg. 













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I dry brine for 15 to 24 hours.


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## wade

DaveOmak said:


> When you get stuff finalized, if "colour" (for our UK/Canada friends) of the final product is a detractor, there is always "beet root" to tweak things.... Over here in Washington, all the Atlantic salmon is colored with it...


Hi Dave - I am just noting differences and not trying to offer any judgemental opinion. Don't forget all I am comparing is the cure stage and this does not necessarily reflect on the finished product. I have seen the end colour of your finished salmon and it is magnificent - which shows how much of a effect the smoking and cooking stages also have on the end result. Yes a lot of products use artificial colour which is a shame. Most of the smoked haddock people buy over here is dyed with a Quinoline Yellow dye and sometimes it can be difficult to buy the undyed fish.

Update - They have now come out of the smoker after 14 hours and will dry in the fridge overnight.


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## h2so4ca

So how did they all turn out?


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## wade

Sorry - am a bit distracted at the moment. Father went into hospital with a heart problem. I am hoping to collate the results and post very soon when I get back home. It may take a couple of days though.

In the meantime here are the final comparative weight losses...

BatchCure typeInitial
weight gAfter
frozen gAfter
cure g  Cure %
loss  After
SmokingFinal %
Loss                    1Dave Omak700  751  -7.29  723-3.292101 Wet brine881  891  -1.14  8810.003101 Dry brine861843727  15.56  72515.8042:1 2 hours838  786  6.21  7718.0052:1 2 hours870853802  7.82  78010.3464:1 2 hours843  790  6.29  7728.4274:1 2 hours905882828  8.51  80111.4982:1 4 hours924  828  10.39  80512.8894:1 4 hours896  802  10.49  77413.62
Even after such a relatively short period of time the dry brines resulted in significant water loss which would have a good preservative effect on the salmon.

The 101 dry brine had actually reached a moisture reduction that is usually associated with fully cured traditional smoked salmon

The two wet brines resulted in either no moisture loss during the curing process or even a slight gain.

From the chart you can also see just how much moisture is lost during the smoking process in quite a short period of time as a result of the air flow across the fish in the smoker.

Apologies once again for the delay in posting the taste results.


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## daveomak

Take care of your father....  Prayers are with him....


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## h2so4ca

I'm sorry to read about your father. Take care of him and your self. Those are the important things.


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## wade

The results are in... Sorry for the delay

We had a grand taste-in where all of the salmon cure types were cooked in an identical way 180 C (350 F) for 14 minutes. These were then laid out and the tasting panel were asked to rate all batches for the following:

*Texture* - from 1-10, where 1 is worse and 10 is best
*Saltiness* - from 1-10 where 1 is less salty and 10 is more salty. Ideal saltiness was to be rated as 5
*Flavour* - From 1-10 where 1 had the least flavour and 10 had the most.
Other comments if applicable
I did also add in a 10th sample which was from the freezer which was Sugar:Salt 1:1 dry brine for 2 hours. Unfortunately I dont have cure weight loss data for this sample. 

Each taster was encouraged to taste the batches in a random order and also to taste as much as they needed in order to rate then. When complete the score sheets were then collected and the ratings for each section averaged and rounded to the nearest whole number. The results are as follows...

*Texture*













Texture.JPG



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All of the textures were deemed to be good and there was little to choose between them. There was a marked physical difference between the textures of the wet brined fillets compared with the dried brine, however both of these textures were deemed to be good. There was some spread of data however the differences in average scores between 6 and 7 were often as a result of rounding.

*Saltiness*













Saltiness.JPG



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Salt tolerance is a very individual thing and there was quite a bit of spread in the data. What we are testing here though is the relative perception of the saltiness and not the actual salt content. This will have been affected both by the moisture content of the salmon and also its relative sweetness

*Flavour*













Flavour.JPG



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The flavour of each was determined by the balance of texture, salt and sweetness. Each sample also had a good smoke flavour.

Both of the wet brines came out well (average or above) however the lower sugar dry brines seemed to have a better balanced flavour than the higher sugar dry brines. Howeverthis may be influenced by food culture, as the US pallet tends to have a greater preference for sweeter foods than the UK pallet.

*Comments*

Most just ticked the comment box however there were some comments left beside certain batches.

1 - Dave Omak wet brine - "Good flavour and nice texture"

3 - Smoking 101 Dry brine - "Much too sweet!", "Almost sickly", "I think the cats will get most of this one"

4 - 2:1 Dry brine - 2 hours (fresh) - "A little sweet"

6 - 4:1 Dry brine - 2 hours (fresh) - "A little sweet"

8 - 2:1 Dry brine - 4 hours (fresh) - "Too sweet"

10 - 1:1 Dry brine - 2 hours - "Best overall balanced flavour"

I must concur with the comment on batch 3. It was unpleasantly sweet.

*Conclusions*

Frankly I was surprised how well all (bar one) of the curing methods fared and how generally similar they all were. Most of the cures though resulted in fish that was deemed to be too sweet - although still edible. Most of these recipes were from American posts and so the sweeter preferences may be cultural.

The Smoking 101 dry brine salmon was unpleasantly sweet even after the specified 14 hours. It was suggested that you could leave the salmon in the brine for days (or even weeks) but I think this would have only made it taste even sweeter.

If you like a slightly wetter textured fish then Dave Omaks cure fared well in all of the categories and I enjoyed eating it. The prolonged smoking that Dave then uses to hot smoke the finished product would likely reduce the moisture content further and result in a firmer end texture.

In general the lower the Sugar:Salt ratio the better the end balance of flavour reported. The 1:1 ratio cured for 2 hours was given the best flavour rating - however this had been cured a month or so ago and had been subsequently frozen. It is possible that the freezing process may have had an additional effect on the flavours. This was my favourite too.

There was a major difference in the texture of the fish immediately following the cure. The wet brines resulted in a significantly softer texture than the dry brines however these did firm up a little through moisture loss during smoking - however they never reached the firmer textures of the dry cured fish.

Freezing the fish prior to curing resulted in a consistent additional ~2% greater moisture loss than the fresh cured fillet. If you are looking to produce a traditionally cold smoked salmon then freezing prior to curing would assist the process.

I hope some of you found this comparison interesting and informative. I certainly have.

Wade


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## driedstick

Wade thanks for the info, guy just dropped by 2 steelhead to me to smoke he just caught, but the outfitter froze it for him. I wish they could have been fresh, and they just cleaned them no fillets - I will have to give the 4-1 a shot I think on one of them . 

Thanks again great post!!!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






DS


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## wade

Thanks DS


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## wade

DaveOmak said:


> Take care of your father.... Prayers are with him....





h2so4ca said:


> I'm sorry to read about your father. Take care of him and your self. Those are the important things.


Thanks for the thoughts guys. I really appreciate them. Dad has now had a defibrillator fitted and is out of hospital - grouching about not being able to play golf for 6 weeks! LOL


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## daveomak

Wade.....  Good luck figuring out how to composite the methods, to achieve the perfect fish....    Will you let us in on the method you devise....    


Dave


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## dcarch

I am sorry if I have not ready this thread carefully.

Is the purpose to taste salt penetration only?

If you, may I suggest one additional test?

Get a volt/ohm meter and test for electrical conductance (in ohms)

Salt conducts electricity. I wonder if that is another way to confirm taste test.

dcarch


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## wade

Hi dcarch

I was originally looking to see if there was a scientific way of measuring the salt content but in the end I concluded that this would add little value. Salt tolerance is such a personal thing that is also relative to other factors. What I find ideal saltiness my wife finds unpleasant and over seasoned. I therefore thought it would provide a better indication if people simply rated the batches relative to their personal ideal.

You are right though it would be a good exercise in future to determine precise salt content, however I would probably do that by having fewer samples and then have them analysed at a local food lab.


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## brayhaven

Conductance doesn't necessarily give the saltiness from a taste perspective. Other flavors can offset the salt taste. The way you did it is best IMO. The low salt of Dave's wet brine could be from the apparently lower concentration of salt (1:20 by weight). Haven't done the weight ratio of the volume recipes to see what that ratio would be but I doubt any are that dilute. I did a dry brine 4:1 sugar salt yesterday 2 hr and then soaked in water 30 min. Good taste and not salty. I'll try Dave's wet next. But I'm getting there. Appreciate all your work here!
Greg


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## daveomak

brayhaven said:


> Conductance doesn't necessarily give the saltiness from a taste perspective. Other flavors can offset the salt taste. The way you did it is best IMO. The low salt of Dave's wet brine could be from the apparently lower concentration of salt (1:20 by weight). Haven't done the weight ratio of the volume recipes to see what that ratio would be but I doubt any are that dilute. I did a dry brine 4:1 sugar salt yesterday 2 hr and then soaked in water 30 min. Good taste and not salty. I'll try Dave's wet next. But I'm getting there. Appreciate all your work here!
> Greg




Greg, morning....   It's a very simple recipe.....   2% salt and sugar by weight.....  that is the weight of the fish and water...   equilibrium brining...  ALWAYS comes out the same....  even I can't screw it up...  Some folks like the salt at 2.5% but I can taste it at that concentration..  

Dave


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## brayhaven

Hi Dave. Yes that's a much lower salt ratio. The other wet one (101) had 8:1 water/salt (volume) which is even higher by weight due to salt being denser than water. I tried the other wet brines and they were too salty. Am brining a few hunks of prev frozen salmon now to try tomorrow with the lower salt concentration. Looking for a simple consistent method. I think you can vary the sugar type & amount to your taste without a problem. Thanks for your help here. 
Greg


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## wade

An observation on Dave's salmon after the cure that I didn't really include in the main summary. When it came out of the cure it really worried me as it looked quite bloated and pale. After sitting overnight in the fridge though it started to look much firmer and started to develop a nice pink colour. I left a couple of the uncooked fillets in the fridge for several days after the tasting session and they really developed a magnificent colour. I know that being pale initially isn't an issue as the way Dave smokes them they develop a lovely colour from the smoker, however it probably shows the developing effect of the nitrite over time.


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## smokewood

That's a fantastic bit of research Wade, I appreciate you taking the time (and expense) in carrying out a very thorough analysis.


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## wade

Thanks Smokewood


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## brayhaven

Question for wade & Dave.  What type nitrite additive did you use ? Cure#2?  Why not nitrate? Does it affect flavor?
Thanks. Greg


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## wade

Hi Brahaven

Because Dave was so precise in his recipe I used pure food grade Sodium Nitrite with the salmon in order to reproduce it as closely as possible.

The use of mixed Nitrate and Nitrite are more common in the US than they are in Europe. Here we more often use Nitrite alone as the preservative as it is this that inhibits the growth of the Clostridium Botulinum. The addition of Nitrate is used in some areas as Nitrate over a period of time is converted to Nitrite.

Although we can buy Cure#2 over here it is more common to buy the branded cures from the sausage manufacture/supply companies. They are very similar (if not identical) to Cure#2 however by doing this we can guarantee that it conforms to EU regulations - and it also tends to work out less expensive.


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## daveomak

brayhaven said:


> Question for wade & Dave.  What type nitrite additive did you use ? Cure#2?  Why not nitrate? Does it affect flavor?
> Thanks. Greg



Bray, morning....    Cure #2 is intended for meat that will not be cooked...   

I suggested nitrite, and provided the weight in grams in Wade's recipe, because I did not know if they had a substitute for cure #1 in GB, and if they did, I did not know the percentage of nitrite it would have in it....   
From what I gather, while reading folks questions and answers, the majority of the world does not expect it citizens to cure their own meats, therefore, there are no commercially available "home packaged" curing products for retail sales....  And, considering how poisonous nitrite is, I suspect it is only available to those who have some sort of business license..
I normally use cure #1...  6.25% nitrite in salt....   or 0.75% nitrite in a mix I get from my meat guy for curing bacon...


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## brayhaven

"The addition of Nitrate is used in some areas as Nitrate over a period of time is converted to Nitrite"

Hmm was thinking it was the other way around.. :o)

Greg


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## brayhaven

DaveOmak said:


> Bray, morning.... Cure #2 is intended for meat that will not be cooked...
> 
> I suggested nitrite, and provided the weight in grams in Wade's recipe, because I did not know if they had a substitute for cure #1 in GB, and if they did, I did not know the percentage of nitrite it would have in it....
> From what I gather, while reading folks questions and answers, the majority of the world does not expect it citizens to cure their own meats, therefore, there are no commercially available "home packaged" curing products for retail sales.... And, considering how poisonous nitrite is, I suspect it is only available to those who have some sort of business license..
> I normally use cure #1... 6.25% nitrite in salt.... or 0.75% nitrite in a mix I get from my meat guy for curing bacon...


Thanks Dave, In a wet brine, how do you figure how much nitrite actually gets into the fish (to affect a deterrent level for bugs)? And how do you store your smoked fish?  With the preservative, can it be vacuum packed & stored at room temp?

I think Cure #1 is the only way we can buy it for food use here, retail. 

In the water treatment business,  I used nitrites for 20 years as oxygen scavengers... and I still get it mixed up with nitrates that I use for fertilizer & gun bluing salts :o)

Greg


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## moose350

Wade,

This is great information, It is amazing the time some of you guys contribute to this forum. Thanks to all of you who do this,it inspires me to try harder, I just wish I had more time.


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## atomicsmoke

DaveOmak said:


> while reading folks questions and answers, the majority of the world does not expect it citizens to cure their own meats, therefore, there are no commercially available "home packaged" curing products for retail sales....



Yeah....that's not it. People of the world cured their own meats long before packaged curing products were available. They were just using mother nature to their advantage: curing in winter months or, for those in warm climates, heavy use of salt and drying.


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## wade

brayhaven said:


> "The addition of Nitrate is used in some areas as Nitrate over a period of time is converted to Nitrite"
> 
> Hmm was thinking it was the other way around.. :o)
> 
> Greg





Wade said:


> Hi Brayhaven
> 
> Because Dave was so precise in his recipe I used pure food grade Sodium Nitrite with the salmon in order to reproduce it as closely as possible.
> 
> The use of mixed Nitrate and Nitrite are more common in the US than they are in Europe. Here we more often use Nitrite alone as the preservative as it is this that inhibits the growth of the Clostridium Botulinum. The addition of Nitrate is used in some areas as Nitrate over a period of time is converted to Nitrite.
> 
> Although we can buy Cure#2 over here it is more common to buy the branded cures from the sausage manufacture/supply companies. They are very similar (if not identical) to Cure#2 however by doing this we can guarantee that it conforms to EU regulations - and it also tends to work out less expensive.


Hi Greg

No it is the Nitrite that is the active form when it comes to inhibiting Clostridium Botulinumon. It does this by binding the iron that is required for its metabolism. A side effect of this is the colour enhancement that we see when Nitrite is present.

Nitrate salt is inert and must be first converted to the form Nitrite before it has any antibacterial properties.

In the US I think it is still common to add both Nitrate and Nitrite, however in Europe it is more common commercially just to use Nitrite.


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## wade

moose350 said:


> Wade,
> 
> This is great information, It is amazing the time some of you guys contribute to this forum. Thanks to all of you who do this,it inspires me to try harder, I just wish I had more time.


Thanks Moose


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## daveomak

atomicsmoke said:


> Yeah....that's not it. People of the world cured their own meats long before packaged curing products were available. They were just using mother nature to their advantage: curing in winter months or, for those in warm climates, heavy use of salt and drying.




There you go.....    Taking one sentence and forming a conclusion....   Another follower of Saul Alinsky makes his voice heard....   

Good argument....


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## daveomak

brayhaven said:


> Thanks Dave, In a wet brine, how do you figure how much nitrite actually gets into the fish (to affect a deterrent level for bugs)?
> 
> With the method described, it is an equilibrium curing method...   given enough time, all things come to equilibrium...  in the above mentioned method, equilibrium is close enough to insure adequate protection, from what I have read...
> 
> And how do you store your smoked fish?
> 
> Vac-pac and freeze for large amounts....    It has to be refrigerated, something like 5 days max, or frozen....
> 
> With the preservative, can it be vacuum packed & stored at room temp?
> 
> No...
> 
> I think Cure #1 is the only way we can buy it for food use here, retail.
> 
> Yes, in the states usually cure #1, Prague Powder etc...  many names, all the same concentration....   Wade lives in Great Britain and I am not familiar with availability of products there....   the same with Europe, I don't know what's available there either....
> 
> _For the benefit of other readers_......   Nor do I know what is available in Egypt, Ghana, Surinam, Viet Nan, Laos, Ecuador, Sweden, Latvia, Italy, Iran, Iraq, India, Mongolia, etc........    And I surely don't know about their retail situation nor their commercial situation...
> In some of the aforementioned countries, a great percentage of the population is illiterate and couldn't read a label on a curing compound anyway, let alone have a grams scale to accurately dispense said compound for a safe product....
> 
> 
> Greg


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## atomicsmoke

DaveOmak said:


> Another follower of Saul Alinsky.



Is it hot down there senator McCarthy?


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## brayhaven

OK Dave. I was wondering if there was a standard level of inhibition. In water treatment we knew exactly how much of an element or compound in parts per million was required to kill or inhibit bio growth. 
I see you use a SWAG :). 
I really wonder, given the storage method (vacuum pack & freezing) whether nitrite is needed at all?  We know it's not good for us.  But better than botulism :). However most here don't use any nitrite in smoked fish and seem to do OK. 
Greg


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## daveomak

brayhaven said:


> OK Dave. I was wondering if there was a standard level of inhibition. In water treatment we knew exactly how much of an element or compound in parts per million was required to kill or inhibit bio growth.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the FDA says 50 Ppm after processing, for a residual, is adequate...
> 
> I see you use a SWAG :).
> I really wonder, given the storage method (vacuum pack & freezing) whether nitrite is needed at all?  We know it's not good for us.  But better than botulism :). However most here don't use any nitrite in smoked fish and seem to do OK.
> Greg



Nitrite should be used in all smoked meats...  the lack of oxygen and medium temps is a perfect breeding ground for botulism....  There are 7 or 8 different strains of botulism....  fish products have 2 or 3 of them...   root vegetables have a few strains also...   I don't try to remember all of that stuff...   It's all bad, real bad....

Vac-packing presents another situation....  If you vac-pac something, then it gets left out on the kitchen counter, perfect incubator for botulism...    no oxygen and mid level temps....   Sooooo......   keep it in the refer or freezer and you are good to go....


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## wade

DaveOmak said:


> Nitrite should be used in all smoked meats... the lack of oxygen and medium temps is a perfect breeding ground for botulism.... There are 7 or 8 different strains of botulism.... fish products have 2 or 3 of them... root vegetables have a few strains also... I don't try to remember all of that stuff... It's all bad, real bad....
> 
> Vac-packing presents another situation.... If you vac-pac something, then it gets left out on the kitchen counter, perfect incubator for botulism... no oxygen and mid level temps.... Sooooo...... keep it in the refer or freezer and you are good to go....


Hi Greg

In many respects vac packing and home canning are quite similar in concept - Both provide an air tight and bacteria barrier around the food. If you were to ensure that the fish was completely sterile inside the vac pack then yes technically there should be no reason why it could not be kept at room temperature. The challenge would be to get the fish sterile in the first place and then to ensure that it stayed sterile. The only practical way at home to ensure sterility would be to heat it under pressure in a pressure canner or retort - but that is also likely to change the taste and texture of the salmon inside. Also not all vac pac bags are the same quality. I have had a batch before that was poor quality and actually lost its vacuum over time - even though the double heat seal still looked perfect. If there is a risk of air getting in then you cannot be totally sure about bacteria too. I have also tested a number of general vac pac and sous vide bags in my pressure canner to try just this, however none of the ones I could get hold of here here in the UK were able to reliably withstand the sterilization process. You can buy special pouches that are designed for use in retorts but the price and quantities I would have had to pay for them made them impractical for testing.

As Dave says - If you want to keep them for more than 4 or 5 days then vac pack and freeze.


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## brayhaven

Thanks wade. I would be skeptical of the ability to permeate nitrite into meats like brisket or butts. Or even ribs. I use cure 1 in my jerky because it often sits in my hunting pack for a day or 2 vacuumed. But have never used it in anything else. I agree that some bags are poor quality. I use the foodsaver bags which seem to hold vacuum better than the cheap ones. 
I'd be interested to see a poll of those who use chemical preservatives (aside from salt) in their smoked meats. Therre are some other things used commercially that might also help preserve like citric acid. It would also be interesting to know of any cases of botulism or other biological related poisoning from smoked meats. 
Greg


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## daveomak

brayhaven said:


> Thanks wade. I would be skeptical of the ability to permeate nitrite into meats like brisket or butts. Or even ribs. I use cure 1 in my jerky because it often sits in my hunting pack for a day or 2 vacuumed. But have never used it in anything else.* I agree that some bags are poor quality.* I use the foodsaver bags which seem to hold vacuum better than the cheap ones.
> I'd be interested to see a poll of those who use chemical preservatives (aside from salt) in their smoked meats. Therre are some other things used commercially that might also help preserve like citric acid. It would also be interesting to know of any cases of botulism or other biological related poisoning from smoked meats.
> Greg




Holding a vacuum, while the meat is at "room temperature" is the last thing you want to do....   Botulism only grows in the absence of oxygen..   A vac-bag that leaks is you friend...

Deaths attributed to botulism are few and far between, thanks to the FDA and the wide use of nitrites in smoked meats...   

The "civilized" world has come a long way....   When folks were preserving meats with salt, some salts had nitrates and nitrites already in them from mother nature...    the salt that was "neglected", and used to preserve meats by the local meat guy in the smoked meats business, well, a lot of his customers died from botulism...  The lucky meat guy, whose salt had nitrates and nitrites already in it, his business survived...   
Then along came some "scientist", and through chemistry, noted the difference in the salts..  
That's a story that can be verified...   and the folks that keep harping on, you don't need nitrites to smoke and cure meats, salt will do, will soon become a statistic...   There are a select few folks that have the knowledge, equipment and proper atmosphere to cure meats successfully without nitrite/nitrate...  
Rumor has it, there are some folks in Toronto Canada, that are gifted in that respect....


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## atomicsmoke

brayhaven said:


> It would also be interesting to know of any cases of botulism or other biological related poisoning from smoked meats.
> Greg



Greg,
Please start a new thread on this topic. Wade deserves not to have his thread hijacked after all the work and expense he altruistically put in.

As you can see the mudslinging has already started.


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## wade

brayhaven said:


> Thanks wade. I would be skeptical of the ability to permeate nitrite into meats like brisket or butts. Or even ribs. I use cure 1 in my jerky because it often sits in my hunting pack for a day or 2 vacuumed. But have never used it in anything else. I agree that some bags are poor quality. I use the foodsaver bags which seem to hold vacuum better than the cheap ones.
> I'd be interested to see a poll of those who use chemical preservatives (aside from salt) in their smoked meats. Therre are some other things used commercially that might also help preserve like citric acid. It would also be interesting to know of any cases of botulism or other biological related poisoning from smoked meats.


Hi Greg

The Nitrite certainly does permeate into solid meat masses though it can take time. If you use a dry brine to cure a side of back bacon and you remove it from the cure too early, when you cut it in half you can see the distinct pink region that shows how far the Nitrite has penetrated. For larger masses of meat the cure is often injected to speed up the diffusion process. For ribs with relatively little meat this probably would not take too long - though I have not personally tried it.

The pouches I found that gave me the most problems were only 50 micron. I now only buy 70 or 90 micron and to date these have all been good.

You asked about the other chemical preservatives people use. Different methods and/or chemicals are employed to best suit what you are trying to produce and how long and under what conditions you are going to store them. The methods are not either/or but depending on what you are trying to achieve you may need a combination of several. The explanation below is not intended to be a text book in microbiological control but just an indicate some of the considerations when selecting a food preservation method.

Different methods are employed to control different bacterial strains. These usually include heat treatment, high salinity, dehydration, acidification and chemical control and of course good hygiene in the food preparation is also *very* important.

Heat treatment, through cooking, kills most bacteria, although some are particularly resistant to heat. For instance bringing the internal temperature of food up to 165 F (74 C) will kill most bacteria though things like botulinum spores need to reach temperatures *above* 212 F (100 C) to be killed - hence the reason why we cannot just use boiling water and need to use the higher temperatures that can only be produced in something like a pressure canner.

Bacteria also need free moisture to thrive and so by removing this through salt or sugar dehydration, air drying or freezing, the bacteria will not be able to multiply.

Many of the harmful bacteria also prefer a neutral environment and do not thrive in acidic conditions. This is where products made from naturally acidic foods (like tomatoes) tend to be less liable to infection - and preserves that are high in vinegar/citric acid (like chutneys) and also good. You can also use non toxic, acid producing bacteria (e.g. some lactobacillus) in things like cultured salami or yoghurt where, as they multiply, they create an acidic environment which then inhibits the growth of other more harmful bacteria.

For some of the food products it is not possible to use some of the more extreme of the methods above so in order to be able to control certain highly resistant bacteria/spores we can also use additional chemical control e.g. Nitrite.

For many things we produce we will often use a combination of methods - for instance in the production of cultured salami the preserving is done through the combination of dehydration, acidification and also chemical control.


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## wade

atomicsmoke said:


> Greg,
> Please start a new thread on this topic. Wade deserves not to have his thread hijacked after all the work and expense he altruistically put in.
> 
> As you can see the mudslinging has already started.


Thanks Atomic. I was already responding to Greg before you posted. I think this topic is deserving of a thread of its own as it is very important that people understand what is actually happening when they are curing/preserving.


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## brayhaven

Hmmm atomic. No idea what you're talking about. I'm trying to get information on curing methods. That's what I thought this thread was all about. Could be a topic that deserves a thread, but it certainly is pertinent to this one as well.  Mudslinging???
Greg


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## brayhaven

Wade, OK, I tried a couple that looked like they might work.  Dave's wet and #7: 4:1 dry 2 hours, on frozen pink salmon.  Both resulted in much better end result than I had gotten before.  But I think the dry 4:1 is more consistent, and the salt level can be easily adjusted by soaking for varying times based on filet thickness (5-30 min), skin on or off, frozen or fresh (I find frozen is more permeable) etc.  The sugar or sweetness that some of your tasters found objectionable isn't a problem. We like it.  Wife loves squaw candy :o).  I appreciate all the work you put into this project.  It was a huge help for me.  Also got me doing research on preservatives which I had not done.  Still tweaking on smoke times, chip type, heat levels etc. for my equipment & taste.  But we're on track now.

Thanks again Wade!

Greg


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## crazymoon

Wade , excellent work and thanks for your time in this project ,much appreciated.


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## wade

T y CrazyMoon


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## piratey

Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is a lot of good information here that I just read.  I'm fairly new to smoking.

Your sugar to salt ratio is inverted from what I have seen and tried when smoking salmon or sturgeon.  For salmon, I have done 1:1 sugar to salt ratio, and for sturgeon, I did a dry cure of 1:2 sugar to salt ratio, which is the inverse of several of your cures.  Do most people who smoke salmon do more sugar or salt in their cures?  Have you (or anyone else) ever tried testing the inverse, using more salt than sugar?  I'd be curious as to the results.


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## atomicsmoke

piratey said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is a lot of good information here that I just read.  I'm fairly new to smoking.
> 
> Your sugar to salt ratio is inverted from what I have seen and tried when smoking salmon or sturgeon.  For salmon, I have done 1:1 sugar to salt ratio, and for sturgeon, I did a dry cure of 1:2 sugar to salt ratio, which is the inverse of several of your cures.  Do most people who smoke salmon do more sugar or salt in their cures?  Have you (or anyone else) ever tried testing the inverse, using more salt than sugar?  I'd be curious as to the results.


I use little or no sugar on my salmon cures. personal preference.


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## wade

piratey said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is a lot of good information here that I just read.  I'm fairly new to smoking.
> 
> Your sugar to salt ratio is inverted from what I have seen and tried when smoking salmon or sturgeon.  For salmon, I have done 1:1 sugar to salt ratio, and for sturgeon, I did a dry cure of 1:2 sugar to salt ratio, which is the inverse of several of your cures.  Do most people who smoke salmon do more sugar or salt in their cures?  Have you (or anyone else) ever tried testing the inverse, using more salt than sugar?  I'd be curious as to the results.


My standard now is 1:1 salt:sugar dry cure for salmon which I find suits most UK pallets. The salt I use is coarse sea salt and I find this gives a very different result than when using fine salt. A lot is down to regional preference though - I am from the UK but have worked/lived in the the US too, and the US pallet is more used to a much sweeter product than in the UK.


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## mummel

Wade at the risk of blasting through 5 pages too quickly, I read that you have more weight loss with dry brines vs wet brines?  Doesnt this mean that the dry brines leaves salmon that is not as moist and juicy as a wet brine (I dont like dry salmon).  TY.  Oh and I am referring to a hot smoke.


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## wade

It does not make it at all dry but it does firm up the texture. The dryness will depend more on the length of time that it is in the hot smoker.

Once I have dry brined, I then cold smoke it for about 8 hours then I cook it hot and fast - 12 minutes at 180 C (350 F). It comes out smokey, moist and tender and it melts in the mouth. It is not wet and pappy - which is how I find uncured salmon steaks can be when they are cooked.


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## mummel

Cool thanks. And just to confirm I am refering to dry brining salmon vs curing it. So 2% salt of weight for dry brining right?

I need to start weighing my meats. 36 hour dry brine vs none, and then really see the weight diffs post smoke.


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## daveomak

mummel said:


> Cool thanks. And just to confirm I am refering to dry brining salmon vs curing it. So 2% salt of weight for dry brining right?
> 
> I need to start weighing my meats. 36 hour dry brine vs none, and then really see the weight diffs post smoke.




The primary difference you will notice is in the flavor.....   Salmon needs salt....


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## ohdannyboy

Hi guys. I just picked up a few pounds of chinook from Washington. I did the 4:1 dry brine and am getting ready to take them out of the brine. Do I need to rinse off the dry brine or do I leave it on?


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## atomicsmoke

OhDannyBoy said:


> Hi guys. I just picked up a few pounds of chinook from Washington. I did the 4:1 dry brine and am getting ready to take them out of the brine. Do I need to rinse off the dry brine or do I leave it on?


I rinse then dry.


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## ohdannyboy

Ok thank you!


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## daveomak

What is 4:1 dry brine....


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## cmayna

"Typically" the 4:1 dry brine is 4 parts dark brown sugar over 1 part salt.  That's what I use but add a few more special ingredients.


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## ohdannyboy

I did like how it describes in the #6 trial. 4 parts cane sugar and one part kosher salt. 2 hours cure time. Some thicker pieces got a little more cure time because they were still really soft. The skin is still on these pieces.


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## fpmich

This deserves a bump up this time of year.  Wade used up a lot of fish just to give us the results.  More than I smoke each year.  LOL

Thanks wade for the time, expense and effort. 

I trust and pray that your Dad is still going strong now.


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## CZN

Almost 6 years later and this info is still gold! Much appreciated!


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## BrianGSDTexoma

I read through most post and may of missed it.  Where all the fish rinsed after curing?  Any thoughts on using sugar substitutes?  Nice work here.


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