# Safe zone



## BB-que (Jul 23, 2020)

Can somebody with knowledge of food safety explain to me what is safe and not safe as far as resting meat after cooking?  If I cook a brisket and want it to rest for 3 hours, is there a point where it gets too low and Not safe for some reason?  Or is there a time in which it needs to stay above a certain Temp or something?  I’ve seen people say 140 for beef but was never sure if that was just where it’s still a good temp to eat or if there are safety issues after that.  And if so why would temps coming down after a cook be unsafe?  When you refrigerate and reheat something it comes way down but doesn’t seem to be a concern.  And it’s possible I’m missing the boat completely.  Just want to know if I cook a brisket should I be monitoring internal temp during the rest for any reason? Thanks all


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## jcam222 (Jul 23, 2020)

chef jimmyj
  is your man for this.


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## thirdeye (Jul 23, 2020)

When you are resting the heavy BBQ meats, they could start off in the 200° range, which gives you a lot of latitude because the high end of the 'danger zone' is 140°.  If you match your hot box and insulation to the meat it's easy to hold for several hours above that temp.

When temperatures come down below 140°, like on a room temperature serving table or the counter, other time recommendations come into play.   And as you have guessed, there are guidelines when moving food to the fridge.  For example, a covered pot of chili won't chill out as fast as you think, and it brings condensation into the equation. 

HERE is a great starting place for the basics.... and some ammunition to ask more questions.


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## BB-que (Jul 23, 2020)

Thanks


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## Magic Meat (Jul 23, 2020)

BB-que said:


> Can somebody with knowledge of food safety explain to me what is safe and not safe as far as resting meat after cooking?  If I cook a brisket and want it to rest for 3 hours, is there a point where it gets too low and Not safe for some reason?  Or is there a time in which it needs to stay above a certain Temp or something?  I’ve seen people say 140 for beef but was never sure if that was just where it’s still a good temp to eat or if there are safety issues after that.  And if so why would temps coming down after a cook be unsafe?  When you refrigerate and reheat something it comes way down but doesn’t seem to be a concern.  And it’s possible I’m missing the boat completely.  Just want to know if I cook a brisket should I be monitoring internal temp during the rest for any reason? Thanks all


You probably already know, but another option (my personal favorite) is putting the tightly foiled meat to rest inside a clean cooler. It's a very efficient way to rest it for longer without the temp dropping too much, it retains moisture, keeps bugs and flies, excessive germs and drunk Uncle Joey to a minimum. 
A big chunk of meat that's say 200f will typically stay well above 140f for many hours in a good cooler,  definitely long enough for a proper rest that's my experience anyway. 
Keep in mind that heat loss could vary due to the cooler size being too big or the meat being too small though. I typically fill the dead space in the cooler with some clean rolled up old bath towels it will stay hotter even longer.  A large piece 10lbs plus will stay hot for a suprisingly long time.
IMHO a cooked piece of meat that has been brought to the proper cooked temperature is pretty much sterilized of any dangerous bacteria and microbes, so you would be basically starting fresh. Even if it drops below 140f " out of the safe zone" you technically still have 1 hour of it being safe per reccomended food safety guidelines.


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## Magic Meat (Jul 23, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> When you are resting the heavy BBQ meats, they could start off in the 200° range, which gives you a lot of latitude because the high end of the 'danger zone' is 140°.  If you match your hot box and insulation to the meat it's easy to hold for several hours above that temp.
> 
> When temperatures come down below 140°, like on a room temperature serving table or the counter, other time recommendations come into play.   And as you have guessed, there are guidelines when moving food to the fridge.  For example, a covered pot of chili won't chill out as fast as you think, and it brings condensation into the equation.
> 
> HERE is a great starting place for the basics.... and some ammunition to ask more questions.


A hot box ? Is that basically a cooler used for resting ? I just haven't heard the term before.  I don't want to miss out on anything I don't have yet lol.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 23, 2020)

Good information here.
Our goal...Keep Hot food Hot, >140°F and Cold food Cold, <40°F.
Any meat coming out of a Smoker after being cooked to recommended minimum Internal Temps, are Sterile inside and out. If you keep bacteria from re-contaminating the meat, wrapping a 200°F+ Brisket in Foil, towels and placing in a Cooler...There is No Opportunity for Bacteria to contact that Beef and  it will stay above 140, a good hot meal temp, for 6 hours or longer if a big hunk. Now, even IF the temp drops below 140, if untouched the Brisket is still Sterile, and will remain Safe until you open the foil. However, I would not hold untouched, room temp, wrapped meat more than 6 hours before refrigerating.

If you are having a party and the Hot meat is placed on the Buffet, it can remain out heated or not, exposed to air no more than 4 hours.

Many restaurants and catering operations have Heated Cabinets that hold moisture well. Hot cooked meats can be held in these Hot Boxes, above 140°F, for 8 hours or more. But the meat continues to Cook at this temp and a Brisket will go from Sliceable to falling apart in about 4-6 hours. Hope this helps...JJ


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## thirdeye (Jul 23, 2020)

Magic Meat said:


> *A hot box ? Is that basically a cooler used for resting ?* I just haven't heard the term before.  I don't want to miss out on anything I don't have yet lol.



*Yes, exactly... it's a general term.*  The commercial ones, like the Cambro brand, can be a cube or taller and are used by barbecuists, caterers, etc.  They can keep things hot OR cold and have slots to accept 1/2 sheet pans or the deeper hotel pans.  They are very secure.  The red box in this photo is a smaller model perfect for me, and it has a door like a refrigerator and locking latches so you can travel with one.






Forbackyard use, a Coleman Party Stacker is a good choice..... I think they are made for a case of beer, and they stack, and.... the lid is a great tray when you bring meats into the house.  They might be 20" X 14" X 8", so they will hold (1) big brisket, or (2) butts, or 4 or 5 racks of ribs. I leave them in the sun.  Not a lot of wasted room.  I also take them shopping with some blue ice to keep perishables cold on the way home.  Anyways, add a towel and you have a super insulated hot box that you can find on sale for $20, about 1/2 the price of a brisket and worth every dime.


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## Magic Meat (Jul 23, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> *Yes, exactly... it's a general term.*  The commercial ones, like the Cambro brand, can be a cube or taller and are used by barbecuists, caterers, etc.  They can keep things hot OR cold and have slots to accept 1/2 sheet pans or the deeper hotel pans.  They are very secure.  The red box in this photo is a smaller model perfect for me, and it has a door like a refrigerator and locking latches so you can travel with one.
> View attachment 455354
> 
> Forbackyard use, a Coleman Party Stacker is a good choice..... I think they are made for a case of beer, and they stack, and.... the lid is a great tray when you bring meats into the house.  They might be 20" X 14" X 8", so they will hold (1) big brisket, or (2) butts, or 4 or 5 racks of ribs. I leave them in the sun.  Not a lot of wasted room.  I also take them shopping with some blue ice to keep perishables cold on the way home.  Anyways, add a towel and you have a super insulated hot box that you can find on sale for $20, about 1/2 the price of a brisket and worth every dime.
> ...


Nice!!  Thanks, great info, now that you mention it I have seen them in hotels and hospitals setting on top of a cart for bringing hot meals around, I just never thought of it to use for bbq or heard of what they were called, I must have been asleep on hot box day hahaa... I have so many random coolers of all shapes and sizes I always have one that works..
But a dedicated setup ! Oohhh stop the madness !...I will have to keep a eye out for one, maybe I can score one on the cheap...it must be nice when readying a bunch of different foods that come off the grill at different times and temps keeping it all nice without stressing..
My wife might kill me though because I already have the garage filled with so much equipment she can't park lol. 
Happy Cooking


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## BB-que (Jul 23, 2020)

Good info, so how can bb joints hold brisket all day at 160(Which I’ve read is what Franklin does) if they’re continuing to cook at that temp, wouldn’t it get dry? I’m thinking about getting a warmer for brisket but don’t know if it’s worth it or the cooler route is just as good.  Just trying to get the most tender brisket I can


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## Chasdev (Jul 24, 2020)

One of the skills a pit master has to learn is when to pull a brisket before it's fully done so it can be held ready at 160 before slicing later in the day.
So if you want to hold one for six hours you have to pull it when internal hits 185 rather than 205.
(just an example, not an instruction).


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 24, 2020)

Yep, that^^^^^^...If you are only holding 4-6 hours, a cooler works fine. But, understand, the surface of the meat, going in the cooler, is 200°F+, that Brisket is Cooking in that Cooler too. Adjust accordingly...JJ


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## Magic Meat (Jul 24, 2020)

BB-que said:


> Good info, so how can bb joints hold brisket all day at 160(Which I’ve read is what Franklin does) if they’re continuing to cook at that temp, wouldn’t it get dry? I’m thinking about getting a warmer for brisket but don’t know if it’s worth it or the cooler route is just as good.  Just trying to get the most tender brisket I can


You also could pull it, bag it, and then do a precision temp hold via sous vide. Zero moisture loss and very stable temp.


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## thirdeye (Jul 24, 2020)

BB-que said:


> Good info, so how can bb joints hold brisket all day at 160(Which I’ve read is what Franklin does) if they’re continuing to cook at that temp, wouldn’t it get dry? I’m thinking about getting a warmer for brisket but don’t know if it’s worth it or the cooler route is just as good. * Just trying to get the most tender brisket I can*



It's up to the cook to get the meat tender.... but a hot box will hold meats for quite a while.  For what it's worth, the Party Stacker does nest on top of the Cambro box and frees up room on your table.  For precision many BBQ joints including Franklin's store use a holding oven.  Google 'Alto-Shaam' oven to see some options.








Chasdev said:


> One of the skills a pit master has to learn is when to pull a brisket before it's fully done so it can be held ready at 160 before slicing later in the day.
> So if you want to hold one for six hours you have to pull it when internal hits 185 rather than 205.
> (just an example, not an instruction).



I cook meats tender, then allow the temp to fall 10° or 15° before sealing the pan or pouch prior to going into the hot box.  You do need to open the cooler or Cambro door about once an hour to vent out some heat.


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## BB-que (Jul 24, 2020)

Yeah I get that, I’ve learned that the hard way.  I’m just surprised how many people say they wait u til their brisket probes like warm butter and then rest if for 3 hours heavily insulated and they get great results.  My first couple I did that and I ended up with crumbly mess .


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 24, 2020)

Lol...Ain't that the truth! For a Brisket, Probe Tender is DONE! 20 to 30 minutes on the counter and you have perfect, tender slices that hold together but melt in your mouth. There is no way double wrapping and Cooler resting that perfectly DONE Brisket for 1, 2, or 3 hours is going to make that perfect Brisket, More Done or Better Done!...JJ


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## BB-que (Jul 24, 2020)

JJ, in your opinion how much better is an “undercooked” brisket property rested until it’s perfect vs a perfect one that you just let rest on the counter for 30 minutes.  The latter sure I’d a lot easier to achieve but you hear so much about the importance of rest and reabsorbing all those juices.  Just curious


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 24, 2020)

A hunk of meat the thickness of a Brisket cools sufficiently on the counter in 30 minutes to relax and reduce the pressure squeezing the juices out and absorb as much of the juices it ever will. Muscle cells release moisture as the proteins coagulate, shrink. This protein is not a sponge and will not absorb 100% of the juices back, not in 30 minutes, not in 3 hours in a Cooler.
In restaurants and catering, we often have to precook and hold or reheat meat. This is done by Undercooking then further cooking as it is held, or heated to order until perfectly Done for service. 
For me...Cooking to Order typically gives the best result. Soups, Stews and Braised meats are the exception and usually better the next day. But if you have to travel with your meat or are getting close to done earlI've than expected...That Cooler or Hot Box sure comes in handy.
Lastly, Perception comes into play. My Perfectly Done and how I get there, may be different for you. I like Pulled Pork that shreds easily but still holds small bundles of muscle together. The next guy may like the finished meat Finely Shredded and very soft. My pork is Done to me when the IT is 205 -210°F, is Very Probe Tender, and the Bone pulls easily. This is what we usually tell Newbies to look for. 20-30 minutes on the counter and I'm pulling the meat and the families at the table.
Others, get to the same point, 205, Etc, but Cooler Rest a couple hours to get what THEY perceive is Perfectly Done,  a finer falling apart Pulled Pork...JJ


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## BB-que (Jul 25, 2020)

Thanks, BBQ is kinda like the news these days, don’t know what the hell to believe.  You hear Mixon say you can do everything right but if you don’t let a brisket rest for 3-4 hours you just screwed up the whole thing.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 25, 2020)

The Fun Part of Q? You Read some Forums, Watch some YouTube, maybe even take Mixon's Class, then you...Burn some Meat, Overcook some Meat, Undercook some Meat, listen to your Kids whine about being Hungary and endure the Looks from your Significant Other because you spent $2000 on a Smoker and you have to order Chinese AGAIN!...Then overtime, you find you are putting out some Tender Brisket, Perfect Ribs and Juicy Pulled Pork. You suddenly realize, YOUR WAY IS DIFFERENT THEN ANYONE ELSES!

I like the result I get with 30 minutes, sometimes less, on the counter. The next hundred guys rest 1 hour, the next group swear by 2 hours and Mixon 3-4 hours. We are ALL right, for us, and have No Idea what we are doing according to the next guy! Try them all and find out how long a rest You like...JJ


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## Winterrider (Jul 25, 2020)

Well said  JJ  !


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## BB-que (Jul 25, 2020)

Ain’t that the truth.  Guess if I wanted simple I’d grill some hot dogs.


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