# Pink salt vs TQ



## lemans (Apr 25, 2015)

Is tender quick the same as pink salt?


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## WaterinHoleBrew (Apr 25, 2015)

I assume the pink salt your referring to is cure #1 ?  Tenderquick & cure #1 are different.  TQ is 0.5% sodium nitrate & 0.5% sodium nitrite.  Cure #1 is 6.25% sodium nitrite.  TQ is meant for dry curing & cure #1 is for wet or dry curing.


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## daveomak (Apr 25, 2015)

Lemans said:


> Is tender quick the same as pink salt?




No....  like WHB said, TQ has nitrite and nitrate in it....    If you are following USDA recommended guidelines when curing meats, the USDA does not allow nitrate to be used in bacon....    so....    pink salt, cure #1 is the way to go......


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## Bearcarver (Apr 25, 2015)

The USDA doesn't allow Nitrates in COMMERCIAL Bacon, and that's a totally different operation than home curing. I asked them about it a few years ago, and they said keep using your Tender Quick for your home cured Bacon.

If TQ was dangerous they would either have to remove it from the market or put a warning on it to not use it for Bacon.

Bear


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## daveomak (Apr 25, 2015)

Bear, you are preaching to the choir.....  I'm tired of it.....  If the USDA does not allow nitrates in commercially cured bacon, WHY would you preach to folks that it is OK to use in home cured bacon....   
That is irresponsible.

Let folks decide on their own.....   Give them the facts......   

Speaking of facts, It's time you put up a data sheet where the USDA says, "It is OK and safe to use nitrates in home cured bacon"


http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...at-preparation/bacon-and-food-safety/CT_Index


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## tigerregis (Apr 25, 2015)

Good explanation from USDA. Thanks for your efforts.


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## Bearcarver (Apr 25, 2015)

I asked them, like I said above. Did you call them. Why try to scare people away from a product used by thousands for decades.

You keep scaring people. I'll keep telling them what USDA told me.

Let them decide which one to believe, or contact USDA for themselves.

Bear


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## daveomak (Apr 25, 2015)

FWIW, I believe the USDA when it come to food safety......    When a document is provided by the USDA saying, "It is safe for consumers to use nitrate when curing bacon" .... Then I will be an advocate for using Morton's Tender Quick when making bacon......   


I agree the USDA has NO control over what home curing folks do with their products....   They can't tell us to follow the 40-140 temp rule, but we follow it....  We seem to follow canning guidelines to avoid the possibility of getting food borne botulism when canning home packed vegetables etc....    We don't give our babies honey because infant botulism "can" happen....


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## Bearcarver (Apr 26, 2015)

The USDA does have control over what home curing folks use.

If Tender quick was not safe for use & consumption, they have options:

Order Mortons to take it off the market.

Order Mortons to change the ingredients.

Order Mortons to put a warning label saying "Not to be used for curing bacon".

The fact that they never have done either of these things, and the reply I got from USDA to my question, telling me to go ahead & continue to enjoy the Bacon I cure with TQ, tells me Tender Quick is perfectly safe.

Bear


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## daveomak (Apr 26, 2015)

TulsaJeff


Self-proclaimed Fire Poker, Pitmaster, and Smoke Whisperer


Admin


offline
2,242 Posts. Joined 6/2005
Location: Sapulpa (Pretty Water), OK
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As the forum owner, I feel personally responsible for the information that is given out especially to the new folks who are looking for answers.

 Most things written on this forum are taken as personal opinions and no one has a problem with that. We all have our opinions.

 However, we will not be slinging personal opinions around when it comes to the topic of food safety.

 I have always tried to stay well versed in food safety and as such, have decided a long time ago that the USDA is an authority on how to cook food and keep it safe for your friends and family.

 (Never thought I would say that about a government agency!)PDT_Armataz_01_03.gif

 The SMF will hold to the USDA regulations with no deviation. These things need no discussion in my opinion.

 I expect OTBS members as well as other seasoned members to make it clear as to what the SMF recommends based on the USDA documentation.

 I will be instructing the mods to edit/delete/lock whatever is necessary to make sure that incorrect information is not being given out.

 I am not asking you to agree.. just know that this is how it will be handled here.

 Most of you may not realize just how far reaching our forum posts are..

 I have seen posts less than 20 minutes old show up in Google searches. Google indexes our forum on a constant basis due to it's dynamic nature.

 This means that people we don't even see are finding the posts in bits and pieces and I need for these pieces to be as correct as possible.

 I can only hope that they will come on over and read the whole thread but there is no guarantee that they will.

 Do your part in keeping everyone safe per the USDA recommendations and if you want to take risks at your own home then feel free to do so.. just don't advise that here.

 I appreciate EVERYONE'S cooperation in this matterPDT_Armataz_01_34.gif


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## wade (Apr 26, 2015)

The levels of Nitrates you will get in your home cured bacon after using TQ as directed will not harm you. Nitrate is still permitted for use in commercial bacon in many countries around the world.

Though, as Dave says, the USDA do not permit its use in commercial bacon and my understanding of the forum rules it that we must always recommend the following of USDA guidelines. Bear, however, is also correct in that TQ has been used for decades for home curing without any reported issues.

With the forum rules in mind, the advice on here has to be that you should use Cure#1 over TQ when curing bacon.


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## lemans (Apr 26, 2015)

Whoa.... Let's not let a simple question go ballistic ..
   I will just throw away my bag of QT.  sorry
I asked!!!


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## smokin' burt (Apr 26, 2015)

Here's an interesting read concerning the naturally occurring nitrates in some vegetable vs the nitrates used in cured meats...

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates

Make sure you read to the end. It's interesting to find out how much properly cured meat an adult of medium stature would have to consume for it to be fatal.

SMB


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## pc farmer (Apr 26, 2015)

Lemans said:


> Whoa.... Let's not let a simple question go ballistic ..
> I will just throw away my bag of QT.  sorry
> I asked!!!



Please keep and use it.


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## welshrarebit (Apr 26, 2015)

Why is it that I can buy TQ at my local stores but not cure#1?


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 26, 2015)

SMOKIN' BURT said:


> Here's an interesting read concerning the naturally occurring nitrates in some vegetable vs the nitrates used in cured meats...
> 
> http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates
> 
> ...


The concern is not that the nitrate would kill you due to poisoning effect, but the long term effect (increased cancer risk). 
While some vegs have high nitrate content they are not cooked at the temps meat is cooked at.


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## Bearcarver (Apr 26, 2015)

Welshrarebit said:


> Why is it that I can buy TQ at my local stores but not cure#1?


Cure #1 is 12.5 times stronger than TQ, and many of the stores are afraid to carry Cure #1 because of that. A lot of people get Cure #1 from their butcher & most butchers I know check with the people to see if they know what they're doing with it. TQ is sold in Super Markets in the same area as Mortons Salt.

Plus with the salt added to the Cure in TQ, it would be too salty to eat enough to seriously hurt you.

Bear


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## smokin' burt (Apr 26, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Cure #1 is 12.5 times stronger than TQ, and many of the stores are afraid to carry Cure #1 because of that. A lot of people get Cure #1 from their butcher & most butchers I know check with the people to see if they know what they're doing with it. TQ is sold in Super Markets in the same area as Mortons Salt.
> 
> *Plus with the salt added to the Cure in TQ, it would be too salty to eat enough to seriously hurt you.*
> 
> Bear


I agree Bear...

My point was to let folks know that the nitrates they use, whether it's TQ or cure #1 are formulated so that if you follow the proper procedure for curing and/or smoking, there isn't a problem. Besides, the info states that a 156 lb. individual would have to eat 14.3 lbs. of cured meat at one sitting for it to reach the fatal level for nitrates. That would be like someone of my stature (200 lbs.) eating 18-19 lbs. at one sitting. I can definitely chow down... but that would be like eating a whole large ham in one sitting and I can't imagine doing that. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can eat that much in one sitting is not human!!

SMB


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## Bearcarver (Apr 26, 2015)

SMOKIN' BURT said:


> I agree Bear...
> 
> My point was to let folks know that the nitrates they use, whether it's TQ or cure #1 are formulated so that if you follow the proper procedure for curing and/or smoking, there isn't a problem. Besides, the info states that a 156 lb. individual would have to eat 14.3 lbs. of cured meat at one sitting for it to reach the fatal level for nitrates. That would be like someone of my stature (200 lbs.) eating 18-19 lbs. at one sitting. I can definitely chow down... but that would be like eating a whole large ham in one sitting and I can't imagine doing that. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can eat that much in one sitting is not human!!
> 
> SMB


Yeah, I know but due to testing, the USDA stopped Commercial outfits from using nitrates in Bacon, because they say if you fry it hot enough it could cause cancer. However I questioned the USDA about that, and they said, "Just enjoy your Home Smoked Bacon. The Commercial process is completely different". What they meant by that other than not to worry, I have no idea, because I don't know the Commercial process, but I think it had to do with the speed of their injection system, as opposed to our long time curing process, but I didn't care what they meant at that time. All I cared about was them saying "Don't worry about it---Enjoy it".

Bear


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## wade (Apr 26, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> The concern is not that the nitrate would kill you due to poisoning effect, but the long term effect (increased cancer risk).
> While some vegs have high nitrate content they are not cooked at the temps meat is cooked at.


Whilst it is sensible to take all reasonable precautions when it comes to health, the link between Nitrosamine intake and cancer is still only circumstantial in humans. Although they form when Nitrates are exposed to high heat they can also be formed from Nitrites are added to some fish. Many countries around the world do not see Nitrates in bacon as being a serious threat to health in the quantities they are used for preserving and so they are still permitted in the production of bacon. The USDA is taking the ultra safe approach but is this being over protective? Things are what they are though.


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## tigerregis (Apr 26, 2015)

Back in the late 70's I was a marketer for a commercial meat processor. When that nitrosamine bull came along every member of the Meat Marketing Association tried to duplicate that test. The answer came back as unnecessary high heat frying. Something that shouldn't be done anyway. Malarkey research.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 26, 2015)

tigerregis said:


> Back in the late 70's I was a marketer for a commercial meat processor. When that nitrosamine bull came along every member of the Meat Marketing Association tried to duplicate that test. The answer came back as unnecessary high heat frying. Something that shouldn't be done anyway. Malarkey research.


You are saying the Meat Marketing association tried to unbiasedly disprove a link between nitrite/nitrate in meat and increased cancer risk? No way.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 26, 2015)

Wade said:


> Whilst it is sensible to take all reasonable precautions when it comes to health, the link between Nitrosamine intake and cancer is still only circumstantial in humans. Although they form when Nitrates are exposed to high heat they can also be formed from Nitrites are added to some fish. Many countries around the world do not see Nitrates in bacon as being a serious threat to health in the quantities they are used for preserving and so they are still permitted in the production of bacon. The USDA is taking the ultra safe approach but is this being over protective? Things are what they are though.


Wanna make myself clear... I didn't chime in to defend USDA's take on commercial bacon. After all this is an agency that says is OK to sell salmonella laden chicken so their rules don't mean much to me (other than compliance with posting rules here).
While I eat bacon and other cured meats I believe less (nitrite/nitrate) is better, none (when safe) is great.


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## tigerregis (Apr 26, 2015)

O.K. Atomic,that is not what I said. All science is based on duplicating a research result.When it isn't duplicated the original proposition is suspect.Are you a Jenny disciple?


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 26, 2015)

tigerregis said:


> O.K. Atomic,that is not what I said. All science is based on duplicating a research result.When it isn't duplicated the original proposition is suspect.Are you a Jenny disciple?


That was sarcasm. 
The tobacco industry also used to tell us smoking was not bad for you. I know people who still believe is BS (smoking causing all kinds of nasties).

Who's Jenny?


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## tigerregis (Apr 27, 2015)

First, my apologies for misunderstanding.Sarcasm is not my forte.I hope you accept this in the spirit it is offered. Sorry, again.


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## atomicsmoke (Apr 27, 2015)

No worries neighbour. :-)


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## bmudd14474 (Apr 27, 2015)

Everytime we have a curing thread there is a battle of who has the bigger stick. If this continues we will ban curing from the site.  We are supposed to be helpful not scare people off.  If you have a problem with what someone says flag it or pm a admin/moderator


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## tigerregis (Apr 27, 2015)

Loud and clear,bmudd.Please don't follow through on the ban.While you are correct in your assessment,the subject is too important to new triers.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 30, 2015)

So the USDA has banned the addition of Nitrate in commercial pumped Bacon, thus there is an ongoing big deal made about the small amount of Nitrate in TQ...

So why does the USDA only worry about " Product Labeling " when they permit an untold number of commercial companies to produce Celery Juice, Cherry Juice, Beet Juice, Parsley Juice and Spinach Juice cured Bacon, all of which contain almost exclusively NITRATE?

*Can bacon be made without the use of nitrite?*
Bacon can be manufactured without the use of nitrite, but must be labeled "Uncured Bacon, No Nitrates or Nitrites added" and bear the statement "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated Below 40 °F At All Times" — unless the final product has been dried according to USDA regulations, or if the product contains an amount of salt sufficient to achieve an internal brine concentration of 10% or more, the label does not have to carry the handle statement of "Not Preserved, Keep Refrigerated below ___" etc. *Recent research studies have shown for products labeled as uncured, certain ingredients added during formulation can naturally produce small amounts of nitrates in bacon and, therefore, have to be labeled with the explanatory statement "no nitrates or nitrites added except for those naturally occurring in ingredients such as celery juice powder, parsley, cherry powder, beet powder, spinach, sea salt etc."*

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...at-preparation/bacon-and-food-safety/CT_Index

So since the USDA, in fact, does allow the use of Nitrate in some types of bacon curing, there is no basis for arguing Tender Quick is bad based on the USDA ban in other types. Used in the proper quantities both Cure #1 and TQ are completely safe...JJ


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## daveomak (Apr 30, 2015)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> So the USDA has banned the addition of Nitrate in commercial pumped Bacon, thus there is an ongoing big deal made about the small amount of Nitrate in TQ...
> 
> So why does the USDA only worry about " Product Labeling " when they permit an untold number of commercial companies to produce Celery Juice, Cherry Juice, Beet Juice, Parsley Juice and Spinach Juice cured Bacon, all of which contain almost exclusively NITRATE?
> 
> ...





Well, now we have your opinion.....


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## jlcnuke (May 7, 2015)

p.s. if you are scared of nitrites and similar substances, don't smoke your meat... nitrite (NO2), NO, and NO3 (nitrate) are also produced as byproducts of combustion so avoid burning wood and just heat with electric elements and avoid any actual combustion process when cooking.... that "smoke ring" is the reaction of these byproducts with meat by the way so get rid of that "dangerous" thing if you're scared of nitrates etc.... 

Granted, it will be very hard to get any smoke flavor without combustion but I guess there's always liquid smoke, right?


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