# Post smoke pellicle



## Hambone-Hambone (Jun 15, 2020)

So I smoked my ribs for 6 hours, got a great smoke ring, no pellicle formed, I fixed the issue and it won't happen again.
My question is this-

Can a pellicle form @ 250° in a standard oven?

(I know I can get it to form if I throw it back on the grill, but I was hoping to just do this the easy way  as the weather doesn't permit at the moment.)

Or does this only occur on my grill when I'm smoking?

EDIT: I DO mean PELLICLE.  my bark (flavor crust + pellicle) is an additional. The flavor crust will form no question. But the pellicle is a complex series of chemical reactions that make a polymerized meat encasement layer. This is my question. Will the maillard reaction take place in an oven NOT a smoker.


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## smokerjim (Jun 15, 2020)

i'm not sure but I think the pellicle forms on raw meat as you dry it out to be smoked. am interested to see some answers on this. I could be totally wrong.


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## thirdeye (Jun 15, 2020)

Do you mean bark?  I've always referred to a pellicle as the surface you allow to form on things like cured salmon before it's cold smoked. It basically lets the smoke adhere better.


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## pushok2018 (Jun 15, 2020)

smokerjim said:


> i'm not sure but I think the pellicle forms on raw meat as you dry it out to be smoked


Ditto on that!


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## SecondHandSmoker (Jun 15, 2020)

Well, you can get a pellicle to form on meat at around 90-100 degrees for an hour or so BEFORE you bump up to 225-250 degrees.
Does your smoker go that low?
OR
Do you mean bark formation?


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## 6GRILLZNTN (Jun 15, 2020)

pushok2018 said:


> Ditto on that!



Ditto x2


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## sandyut (Jun 15, 2020)

thirdeye said:


> 've always referred to a pellicle as the surface you allow to form on things like cured salmon before it's cold smoked.


same Ditto X3


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## hoity toit (Jun 15, 2020)

dittox4


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## SecondHandSmoker (Jun 15, 2020)

I am thinking that Hambone meant to say bark instead of pellicle.


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## Hambone-Hambone (Jun 15, 2020)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> I am thinking that Hambone meant to say bark instead of pellicle.


Well, yes and no, I mean, the bark is just the flavor crust PLUS the pellicle, I know I have the flavor crust but I didn't really have that hardened outter layer of meat polymerization that I read is called the pellicle.


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## Hambone-Hambone (Jun 15, 2020)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> Well, you can get a pellicle to form on meat at around 90-100 degrees for an hour or so BEFORE you bump up to 225-250 degrees.
> Does your smoker go that low?
> OR
> Do you mean bark formation?


I had it on the smoker for 6 hours and it never went above 180 because I ran out of time. I cut it in half for space reasons and saw a good pink smoke ring, my flavor crust was a pit soupy and I didn't see a pellicle. So I know my soupy flavor crust will dry out in the oven, I just wanted to know if the pellicle (the polymerized meat encasement) would form in the oven.


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## Winterrider (Jun 15, 2020)

I'm with the others on this ,unless we have completely missed someting.





						How to Form a Pellicle on Smoked Meat (Salmon & Bacon) | Eat Cured Meat
					






					eatcuredmeat.com


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 15, 2020)

Please post the info you are using to describe a Pellicle as polymerization.
My understanding is,  a Pellicle the recombinant and binding of dissolved Meat Proteins, on the surface,  as water evaporates. This Glue allows smoke to adhere to the surface more readily. Once the meat is cooked,  proteins a denatured,  they cannot combine to form a possible...JJ


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## Hambone-Hambone (Jun 15, 2020)

chef jimmyj said:


> Please post the info you are using to describe a Pellicle as polymerization.
> My understanding is,  a Pellicle the recombinant and binding of dissolved Meat Proteins, on the surface,  as water evaporates. This Glue allows smoke to adhere to the surface more readily. Once the meat is cooked,  proteins a denatured,  they cannot combine to form a possible...JJ











						What is Bark, and Why It Makes Us Howl for More
					

Bark is that sweet, rich, crusty surface on low and slow cooked meat, and for many of us, the best part. It is part pellicle and part spice crust, but how does it form? The Maillard reaction, polymerization, and evaporation are key. Find out how to get better bark on your brisket, ribs, and pork...



					amazingribs.com
				




"Turns out bark is a byproduct of complex chemical reactions: The _Maillard reaction_ and _polymerization_ chief among them."


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## SecondHandSmoker (Jun 15, 2020)

Hambone-Hambone said:


> I had it on the smoker for 6 hours and it never went above 180 because I ran out of time. I cut it in half for space reasons and saw a good pink smoke ring, my flavor crust was a pit soupy and I didn't see a pellicle. So I know my soupy flavor crust will dry out in the oven, I just wanted to know if the pellicle (the polymerized meat encasement) would form in the oven.



180 degrees on the smoker is a little too low in my opinion.  
At that temp, the cook will take longer and you run the risk of actually dehydrating the ribs instead of breaking down the fats and collagen. 

Yes, you will get bark formation in a 250 degree oven or a 250 degree smoker for that matter as the sugars in your rub caramelize and harden and a thin layer of meat loses moisture to form the bark.  

I hope this helps.


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## thirdeye (Jun 15, 2020)

Hambone-Hambone said:


> Well, yes and no, I mean, the bark is just the flavor crust PLUS the pellicle, I know I have the flavor crust but I didn't really have that hardened outter layer of meat *polymerization *that I read is called the pellicle.





chef jimmyj said:


> Please post the info you are using to describe a Pellicle as *polymerization*.
> My understanding is,  a Pellicle the recombinant and binding of dissolved Meat Proteins, on the surface,  as water evaporates. This Glue allows smoke to adhere to the surface more readily. Once the meat is cooked,  proteins a denatured,  they cannot combine to form a possible...JJ



*Polymerization*.  Hmmmm..... That's a new term for my Barbecuist Dictionary. Thanks guys. 

So, in Hambone's description of what he's after, does (or when does) Louie Maillard's reaction  come into play with this barky, polymerization, pellicle action going on,  on those ribs?


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## Fueling Around (Jun 15, 2020)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> 180 degrees on the smoker is a little too low in my opinion.
> At that temp, the cook will take longer and you run the risk of actually dehydrating the ribs instead of breaking down the fats and collagen.
> 
> Yes, you will get bark formation in a 250 degree oven or a 250 degree smoker for that matter as the sugars in your rub caramelize and harden and a thin layer of meat loses moisture to form the bark.
> ...


The goal of ribs (or shoulder) is around 200° saturation temperature to melt all the connective tissues of fat, collagen, etc. 


Hambone-Hambone said:


> ...
> "Turns out bark is a byproduct of complex chemical reactions: The _Maillard reaction_ and _polymerization_ chief among them."


I am not a bark seeker.
I do not use sugar in my rub. Sugar is the primary ingredient to produce a bark.
I use a fridge dry to form the sticky pellicle that aids in smoke penetration. 
A 250° smoker (or oven) will form a (sugar) bark, but not a Maillard reaction.
Maillard is from searing your meat at high heat well above smoking temperatures.

I have not a clue what "polymerization" means to you.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 15, 2020)

Hambone-Hambone said:


> What is Bark, and Why It Makes Us Howl for More
> 
> 
> Bark is that sweet, rich, crusty surface on low and slow cooked meat, and for many of us, the best part. It is part pellicle and part spice crust, but how does it form? The Maillard reaction, polymerization, and evaporation are key. Find out how to get better bark on your brisket, ribs, and pork...
> ...



Yes. Bark is what you are looking to improve. The Pellicle is as described above and associated with Raw Meat that will be smoked at low temps, <180°F...JJ


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## bill1 (Jun 16, 2020)

Some of you guys are making me nervous.  Pellicle is sticky, and the idea is that helps smoke molecules adhere better.   It forms from the proteins of the meat itself and air--no smoke involved.  But most pellicle-growing aficionados are fish smokers who start with very salty meat.  They'll let stuff hang out at room temp to form the stickiest pellicle, counting on the salt to prevent spoilage and bacteria in the air from growing really nasty stuff.   Then they smoke.  
I'd be very leary about _trying _to form pellicle on beef or pork.  (The original poster spoke of ribs.)  It sounds like a recipe to get very sick. If done at all, I'd make sure it's only done on unwrapped meat in a normal refrigerator and maybe put in a small fan to accelerate the process.  Then out and into a smoker of at least 140 F.   Spending more than a few minutes (to apply rub etc) in the Danger Zone of 40-140F doesn't sound like a good idea to me.  
I think when people speak of "aging beef" at >40F, it's done in a controlled environment with strong UV lamps to mitigate the health hazard, similar to salted fish when it's "left hanging".  
Now some of you seem to be thinking of pellicle as "early bark" but like ChefJimmyJ says, that's not quite what most cooking chemists would say.  As long as you're putting your meat from 'fridge to smoker (over 140F) I'm not concerned but if you're trying to grow a true pellicle, which typically involves long periods in room-temp air, I'd discourage it.


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## thirdeye (Jun 16, 2020)

Hey Bill, pellicle  in my world is related to fish, and it does start out sticky or tacky because I've just rinsed off a dry, salt & sugar based cure (no TQ or Cure #1), but after 12 to 15 hours in my beer fridge (never at room temperatures for me)  it has matured into a glazed over-like finish. My fish is only mildly salty because refrigeration is in my technique. Here is an example of the pellicle I develop,  before smoking these trout fillets. 






I'm totally behind your logic about forming any kind of pellicle (as we've all defined it) on whole muscle pork or beef cuts.  Although I've had some wickedly good Mexican and Chinese marinated meats that bordered on that philosophy and were delicious. 

Does one actually "grow" a pellicle or allow it to develop under controlled conditions?


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## bill1 (Jun 16, 2020)

I'm all in favor of  "pellicle experiments" on _any_ meat at _low _temperatures.   Personally I'd be surprised if beef or pork will form a pellicle, in a 'fridge, at anything less than a week, but I'd love to be proved wrong.  I'm only discouraging doing it (for food safety reasons) at room temps for anything more than a few minutes.  

I think what we call "smoking" of beef and pork at safe temps (smokers >140F)  possibly does form a pellicle, and in minutes, not days.  Heat is the universal catalyst after all.   And that could be considered the first stage of bark formation, hence the "antics with semantics" we're seeing in this thread.   At least Greg Blonder, who's a pretty sharp guy, argues for here.  But I expect that once that bark (paint film!) forms you're kind of all done getting NOx molecules (and smoke ring formation) _into _your meat, and you're just piling smoke flavor onto the bark.  

So we tend to all agree that most of the art of instilling the smoke flavor we like (which is subjective) is occuring during the very early hours of smoking.   And that might be a function of gas flow _rate _as well as smoke density and temperature.  And that's probably why the pellet grills, with their combustion fans and lots of forced flow, have a different smoke profile.   Possibly something to tinker with there.


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## bill1 (Jun 16, 2020)

Just btw, I failed to give a hat tip to third eye and many of you who have empirically found tasty methods while still maintaining safe food handling guidelines.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 17, 2020)

bill
 1 You make some good points and your focus on Safety is admirable. The USDA/FDA allows Restaurants to have any meat out of refrigeration for a max of 2 hours for prep or whatever. Testing has shown there is no significant bacterial growth in the first 2 hours. As I talked about, forming a pellicle is for the benefit of smoke adhesion on food that will be cold smoked, fish being most common.  I agree that a pellicle on any meat that is being Hot Smoked is likely pointless, but an hour or two in front of a Fan at room temp is considered Safe and would likely give some amount of pellicle on red meat. To what advantage? I have no idea. I see a side by side Experiment in the making...JJ


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## Magic Meat (Jun 26, 2020)

Hambone-Hambone said:


> So I smoked my ribs for 6 hours, got a great smoke ring, no pellicle formed, I fixed the issue and it won't happen again.
> My question is this-
> 
> Can a pellicle form @ 250° in a standard oven?
> ...


My understanding of a pellicle is not created by heat, it's rather the oxidation of meat leading to a very thin layer of polymerized protiens on the the very surface of any meat that is exposed to air circulation. It has been proven that uv light can play a part in the formation, although a pellicle can form during low heat application with good air flow. I don't believe the maillard reaction has anything to do with a pellicle because cold raw meat can form a pellicle in the fridge no problem without any heat. Pat dry a steak and put it in the fridge for 6 to 10 hours, the outside of the steak will be dry to the touch but have a distinct tackiness to it that it could not achieve wrapped in plastic, in a marinade, or covered in some way. This thin dry tacky layer is a pellicle, no more no less.  And from my understanding has nothing to do with the meat being cooked in any way.
That pellicle gives the meat the ability for smoke and in some cases dry seasonings but more for smoke to adhere and penetrate on a micron level. A meat surface that is fresh cut and wet tends to repel smoke and causes the smoke to sort of self rinse and not get a chance to penetrate as well as it would with a pellicle.  Imho bark, maillard and pellicle is like apples oranges and pecans.
But that's just my two cents.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 26, 2020)

You are pretty much correct up to here...


Magic Meat said:


> A meat surface that is fresh cut and wet tends to repel smoke and causes the smoke to sort of self rinse and not get a chance to penetrate as well as it would with a pellicle.


Folks often confuse the difference between Absorbing Smoke, specifically Nitrogen Dioxide, and meat Taking on Smoke Flavor.
A Wet Surface provides moisture that can combine with NO2,  be absorbed into the meat and cause the Myoglobin, red protein in meat, to turn Pink and stay that color even after cooking. This is why many cooks smoke at low temps, 150 to 180, and Spritz or Mop frequently, during the first 4 hours of Smoking with Wood alone or with charcoal and wood. They get a deep, pretty, Smoke Ring. The meat will continue to take on the smokes flavor, there is just no penetration, after the surface gets to 140°F and is cooked.
In contrast, in Cold Smoking, we want to, " Take on Smoke " as in, maximize the Smoke Flavor Components that stick to the surface of the meat. This is especially important  if Smoking a short time, 4 hours give or take. Here, Drying the surface Slowly and letting moist surface proteins form a Sticky coating,  a Pellicle,  is a benefit...JJ


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## bill1 (Jun 27, 2020)

To pursue "stickiness" a bit more, surfaces that feel sticky (adhesion) to our fingers, whether glues or meat pellicle, are exhibiting their tendency to viscously flow (a _cohesion _effect) into the rough surfaces of our skin.  (Like a gecko climbing up a wall that our own skin just slides off of.)  At the molecular sizes of smoke gases (such as NO, NO2, or larger) it's not so much an adhesive effect as that there's just  a lot of surface area in the "sticky" meat for molecules to utilize whatever manner of intermolecular force that's binding them to the meat, and given _days _of cold smoking, diffuse their way into the meat.  In the same way, velvet will get smokier than silk in a smoker.  (Velvet is a lot like gecko feet.)  
But cooking, which involves raising the temperature of the meat, will always involve water on the surface.  That liquid surface is quite slippery.  I think it's not so much the smoke sticks to the water as the water sticks (or wants to condense) around the smoke.  But there's still surface tension of the water to the meat so as the outer layers of water molecules evaporate, the larger smoke molecule stays behind and is diffusively driven closer, and into, the meat surface.  The action of periodically spritzing the meat helps accelerates the process.  
So if you have the time (or lack the heat) for cold smoking, the "sticky" (high-surface area) pellicle route is the way to go to add smoke flavor.  But if you only have hours (instead of days) of if you just prefer the taste of cooked meat over raw, you're _going _to have lots of surface water and a pellicle is not going to help, you're better off utilizing the smoke-to-water-to-meat exchange medium.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 27, 2020)

Never had Smoked Gecko Feet. Sounds like they would really...STICK to your Ribs...JJ


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