# The smoke ring mystery



## chiefp (Oct 5, 2012)

I've been doing my diligent newbe reading and understand that electrics won't give your meat a smoke ring like fire or charcoal.  I've got both and see this firsthand....but why not?  Temps are the same and the smoke is being provided by wood in both.  Someone please splain dis to me.


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## jarjarchef (Oct 5, 2012)

That is a question I have been wondering too...... So I will tag along to see if one of the science type members has a good answer.....


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## smokinhusker (Oct 5, 2012)

Great question and since I knew I had read several other posts regarding the formation of the smoke ring, I searched it.

From this thread post #5 by Dutch http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/120810/smoke-ring

The smoke ring forms as the meat is subjected to the smoke and is caused by a chemical reaction between the nitrites/nitrates in the meat and the rub and the compounds in the wood smoke.  The ring quits forming when the internal temps of the meat passes through the 140° range but the meat will continue to take on the smoke flavor as long as smoke is present in the chamber. 

Stickburners and charcoal burners (using wood chunks for flavor) produce some nice rings; propane burners can produce a decent ring and electric smokers come in last place when using the factory chip tray as they don't get proper ventalation to smolder correctly and they don't hold a lot of chips.

As strange as it sounds, a nice looking smoke ring doesn't alway mean that you have a quality product.  I have a number of friends that are certified bbq judges and though they say a ring looks nice-it has no bearing on the judging. It's all about the meat.

Another http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/120810/smoke-ring


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## diggingdogfarm (Oct 5, 2012)

In addition to what Alesia posted, here's a very good explanation of how the smoke ring is formed, by Meat Extension Specialist, Joe Cordray, of Iowa State University.

*"Smoke Ring in Barbeque Meats:
How to Get That Coveted Pink Ring With Your Cooking
by Joe Cordray

Slow cooked barbecue meats often exhibit a pink ring around the outside edge of the product. This pink ring may range from 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch thick. In beef the ring is a reddish-pink and in pork, chicken and turkey it is bright pink. This pink ring is often referred to as a "smoke ring" and is considered a prized attribute in many barbecue meats, especially barbecue beef briskets. Barbecue connoiseurs feel the presence of a smoke ring indicates the item was slow smoked for a long period of time. Occasionally consumers have mistakenly felt that the pink color of the smoke ring meant the meat was undercooked. To understand smoke ring formation you must first understand muscle pigment.

Myoglobin is the pigment that gives muscle its color. Beef muscle has more pigment than pork muscle thus beef has a darker color than pork. Chicken thighs have a darker color than chicken breast thus chicken thigh muscle has more muscle pigment (myoglobin) than chicken breast tissue. A greater myoglobin concentration yields a more intense color. When you first cut into a muscle you expose the muscle pigment in its native state, myoglobin. In the case of beef, myoglobin has a purplish-red color. After the myoglobin has been exposed to oxygen for a short time, it becomes oxygenated and oxymyoglobin is formed. Oxymyoglobin is the color we associate with fresh meat. The optimum fresh meat color in beef is bright cherry red and in pork bright grayish pink. If a cut of meat is held under refrigeration for several days, the myoglobin on the surface becomes oxidized. When oxymyoglobin is oxidized it becomes metmyoglobin. Metmyoglobin has a brown color and is associated with a piece of meat that has been cut for several days. When we produce cured products we also alter the state of the pigment myoglobin. Cured products are defined as products to which we add sodium nitrate and/or sodium nitrite during processing. Examples of cured products are ham, bacon, bologna and hotdogs. All of these products have a pink color, which is typical of cured products. When sodium nitrite is combined with meat the pigment myoglobin is converted to nitric oxide myoglobin which is a very dark red color. This state of the pigment myoglobin is not very stable. Upon heating, nitric oxide myoglobin is converted to nitrosylhemochrome, which is the typical pink color of cured meats.
When a smoke ring develops in barbecue meats it is not because smoke has penetrated and colored the muscle, but rather because gases in the smoke interact with the pigment myoglobin. Two phenomenon provide evidence that it is not the smoke itself that causes the smoke ring. First, it is possible to have a smoke ring develop in a product that has not been smoked and second, it is also possible to heavily smoke a product without smoke ring development.

Most barbecuers use either wood chips or logs to generate smoke when cooking. Wood contains large amounts of nitrogen (N). During burning the nitrogen in the logs combines with oxygen (O) in the air to form nitrogen dioxide (NO2). Nitrogen dioxide is highly water-soluble. The pink ring is created when NO2 is absorbed into the moist meat surface and reacts to form nitrous acid. The nitrous acid then diffuses inward creating a pink ring via the classic meat curing reaction of sodium nitrite. The end result is a "smoke ring" that has the pink color of cured meat. Smoke ring also frequently develops in smokehouses and cookers that are gas-fired because NO2 is a combustion by-product when natural gas or propane is burned.

Let’s review the conditions that would help to contribute to the development of a smoke ring. Slow cooking and smoking over several hours. This allows time for the NO2 to be absorbed into and interact with the meat pigment.

Maintain the surface of the meat moist during smoking. NO2 is water-soluble so it absorbs more readily into a piece of meat that has a moist surface than one which has a dry surface. Meats that have been marinated tend to have a moister surface than non-marinated meats. There are also a couple of ways that you can help to maintain a higher humidity level in your cooker; 1. Do not open and close the cooker frequently. Each time you open it you allow moisture inside to escape. 2. Put a pan of water on your grill. Evaporation from the water will help increase humidity inside the cooker.

Generate smoke from the burning of wood chips or wood logs. Since NO2 is a by-product of incomplete combustion, green wood or wetted wood seems to enhance smoke ring development. Burning green wood or wetted wood also helps to increase the humidity level inside the cooker.
A high temperature flame is needed to create NO2 from nitrogen and oxygen. A smoldering fire without a flame does not produce as much NO2. Consequently, a cooker that uses indirect heat generated from the burning of wood typically will develop a pronounced smoke ring. Have fun cooking. A nice smoke ring can sure make a piece of barbecued meat look attractive."*

~Martin


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## jrod62 (Oct 5, 2012)

Here some info that Dutch posted one time ::::

   The smoke ring forms as the meat is subjected to the smoke and is caused by a chemical reaction between the nitrites/nitrates in the meat and the rub and the compounds in the wood smoke. The ring quits forming when the internal temps of the meat passes through the 140° range but the meat will continue to take on the smoke flavor as long as smoke is present in the chamber.

Stickburners and charcoal burners (using wood chunks for flavor) produce some nice rings; propane burners can produce a decent ring and electric smokers come in last place when using the factory chip tray as they don't get proper ventalation to smolder correctly and they don't hold a lot of chips.

As strange as it sounds, a nice looking smoke ring doesn't alway mean that you have a quality product. I have a number of friends that are certified bbq judges and though they say a ring looks nice-it has no bearing on the judging. It's all about the meat.

What are you burning in your pit? All wood; charcoal/wood mix; all charcoal?

Enjoy the Smoke!

Also found this one ,hope some of this helps.

 http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61546


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## cliffcarter (Oct 5, 2012)

The nitrogen dioxide in the smoke reacts with the myoglobin in the meat and forms the smoke ring, since electrics do not produce smoke cooking with them doesn't produce a smoke ring. Below is a more comprehensive explanation-

http://www.smokingpit.com/Info/SmokeRing.pdf


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## jwbtulsa (Oct 5, 2012)

http://foodsoftheworld.activeboards.net/smoke-ring-in-barbeque-meats_topic2373.html

TasunkaWitko posted this rather informative link in his thread Greek Sparerib Barbecue

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/128225/greek-sparerib-barbecue


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## chiefp (Oct 5, 2012)

Thanks all.  I'd already read some of this and alot of it is repeated.  I got the whole chemical reaction from burning wood (NO2).  And these explanations all say you don't get the ring in an electric because you're not burning wood or not enough to make the grade (chip trays).  But what about the guys using the AMPNS (I just ordered one too)?  These seem to make just as much smoke as my stick burner does.   And there's also some disagreement on how long the smoke does any good.  some of the above says that after 140 degrees, the meat will no longer absorb smoke, but there's alot of disagreement with that on here as well.  There ought to be some disagreement on which rub is best or fat cap up or down.  But science is science....right?   lol.      

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the flavor and my new MES gets an "A" for my first attempt.


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## diggingdogfarm (Oct 5, 2012)

From above.....

*"A smoldering fire without a flame does not produce as much NO2."*

~Martin


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## ewetho (Oct 5, 2012)

So you have to have happy gas to get the purty smoke ring!!!

Isn't life grand!!


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## cliffcarter (Oct 5, 2012)

ewetho said:


> So you have to have happy gas to get the purty smoke ring!!!
> 
> Isn't life grand!!


No, it's *nitrogen dioxide *not *nitrous oxide*


ChiefP said:


> Thanks all.  I'd already read some of this and alot of it is repeated.  I got the whole chemical reaction from burning wood (NO2).  And these explanations all say you don't get the ring in an electric because you're not burning wood or not enough to make the grade (chip trays).  But what about the guys using the AMPNS (I just ordered one too)?  These seem to make just as much smoke as my stick burner does.   And there's also some disagreement on how long the smoke does any good.  some of the above says* that after 140 degrees, the meat will no longer absorb smoke,* but there's alot of disagreement with that on here as well.  There ought to be some disagreement on which rub is best or fat cap up or down.  But science is science....right?   lol.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the flavor and my new MES gets an "A" for my first attempt.


Again, incorrect and this is a common misconception. Smoke ring formation will cease at 140°F, meat will absorb smoke flavor for as long as it is in the smoke. See post #3 by* Smokin Husker*.


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## mballi3011 (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm a gasser and have wondered about it for a longtime now. To tell you the truth if I have the smoke flavor thats all I need to keep me happy.


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## woodcutter (Oct 5, 2012)

I have an electric smoker and it may just be the grass is always greener scenario, but a smoke ring is very photogenic and presentation is part of a masterpiece meal. I wish I would have a smoke ring. ($.02)


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## billebouy (Oct 5, 2012)

To be clear:

A "smoke ring" is in fact not a "smoke" ring.

The presence of smoke (or absence, for that matter) has nothing to do with it.


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## 25mike87 (Oct 5, 2012)

wow a lot of great info in this thread. I guess I haven't put that much thought into the smoke ring but thanks all for the great info


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## cliffcarter (Oct 6, 2012)

billebouy said:


> To be clear:
> 
> A "smoke ring" is in fact not a "smoke" ring.
> 
> The presence of smoke (or absence, for that matter) has nothing to do with it.


Technically the smoke ring is formed by nitrogen dioxide present in the wood smoke in reaction with myoglobin in the meat. The presence of smoke has everything to do with it, which was at the heart of the OP's intial question.


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## wtipton (Oct 6, 2012)

All this sciency stuff is making my head hurt 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 Time to go smoke some meat and relax 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





, all joking aside great info. happy smoking

William


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## billebouy (Oct 6, 2012)

cliffcarter said:


> Technically the smoke ring is formed by nitrogen dioxide present in the wood smoke in reaction with myoglobin in the meat. The presence of smoke has everything to do with it, which was at the heart of the OP's intial question.


I took the heart of the OP's question to be "But what about the guys using the AMNPS?" (his question in his second post) i.e., lots of smoke, but no smoke ring.

Technically smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases.  NO2 is one of those gasses that is a byproduct of combustion, in varying levels depending on the type and conditions of combustion.  As noted elsewhere, a gas grill heats by combustion, produces no "smoke" or smoke flavor (by a BBQ standard), yet can give you a "smoke ring" because of sufficient levels of NO2 as a byproduct of propane combustion.  A internal combustion engine can do it too, but I'm not cooking my ribs over the exhaust of my F150, lol.

An AMNPS gives you plenty of yummy visible smoke yet does not release enough NO2 for a smoke ring.  You could expose cooking meat to pure NO2, get a pretty smoke ring, but have no discernible traditional "smoke" flavor.

My point was simply, just because you see and smell "smoke", does not mean you will get a "smoke ring".

And just because you don't, doesn't mean you won't.

Now, that being said.  The flavor profile of a butt cooked in a MES with an AMNPS is not the same as a butt cooked in a stick-burner.  Precisely because the stick-burner brings a lot of byproducts into play in concentrations that an AMNPS doesn't.  Not saying which is the "better" approach, but they are different, just like charcoal is different. 

Don't get me wrong, the AMNPS is a great product, I love mine, and use it all the time.  Canadian bacon, smoked salmon, smoked sausage, smoked cheese, etc., can't be beat.  And and AMNTS does a great job of adding smoke flavor in a charcoal smoker (but in that charcoal smoker, it's the charcoal, not the AMNTS smoke, that will give you your "smoke ring").

They're all tools, and all have their place.


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## rabbithutch (Oct 6, 2012)

So . . .   


.  . .  the business opportunity here is to find a way to get NO2 to develop in sufficient concentration in an electric smoker?


Or, maybe I didn't understand what I read (happens a lot as I get older).  What I took from all the information is that NO2 reacts with myoglobin up to a temperature of 140* and causes the meat to form the pink "smoke" ring.  Seems to me that it someone came up with a way to introduce the correct quantities of NO2 into an electric smoker (and if appropriate humidity and heat could be sustained) that an electric smoker should produce a smoke ring just as do other types of smokers.

What did I miss or get wrong?


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## billebouy (Oct 6, 2012)

The general consensus is "artificially" creating a smoke ring is "cheating".  It's easy to do, which is why it doesn't buy you any points in competition.

But if you want to do it, rub on some Morton Tender Quick, let it stand a bit, and rinse it off.


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## ewetho (Oct 6, 2012)

cliffcarter said:


> No, it's *nitrogen dioxide *not *nitrous oxide*


So true but no where near as funny! LOL!!!


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## cliffcarter (Oct 6, 2012)

billebouy said:


> I took the heart of the OP's question to be "But what about the guys using the AMNPS?" (his question in his second post) i.e., lots of smoke, but no smoke ring.
> 
> Technically smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases.  NO2 is one of those gasses that is a byproduct of combustion, in varying levels depending on the type and conditions of combustion.  As noted elsewhere, a gas grill heats by combustion, produces no "smoke" or smoke flavor (by a BBQ standard), yet can give you a "smoke ring" because of sufficient levels of NO2 as a byproduct of propane combustion.  A internal combustion engine can do it too, but I'm not cooking my ribs over the exhaust of my F150, lol.
> 
> ...


That is not what you said the first time, but thanks for the clarification.


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## chiefp (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks!

I believe I've got it now.  Using the MES, regardless of whether you add an AMPS, you will not "burn" enough fuel to create the amount of CO2 needed to get the ring.  The ring also doesn't directly relate to how much smoke flavor you've added either.  As I said earlier, I'm all about the flavor, ring or no ring, just wanted to understand the science.  

My first butt (9.5lbs) is almost ready, having been in the MES all night (at 250).  I set the AMPS up when I put it in (1130pm) and as of this morning (0900) it's all burned up (don't know how long it lasted).  Added some apple wood chips to the MES for the last couple hours....WOW does it smell good.


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## cliffcarter (Oct 7, 2012)

ChiefP said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I believe I've got it now.  Using the MES, regardless of whether you add an AMPS, you will not "burn" enough fuel to create the amount of CO2 needed to get the ring.  The ring also doesn't directly relate to how much smoke flavor you've added either.  As I said earlier, I'm all about the flavor, ring or no ring, just wanted to understand the science.
> 
> My first butt (9.5lbs) is almost ready, having been in the MES all night (at 250).  I set the AMPS up when I put it in (1130pm) and as of this morning (0900) it's all burned up (don't know how long it lasted).  Added some apple wood chips to the MES for the last couple hours....WOW does it smell good.


That would be NO2


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## chiefp (Oct 7, 2012)

cliffcarter said:


> That would be NO2


oops, fat fingered it.  yes, NO2


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## hoity toit (Sep 28, 2013)

billebouy said:


> The general consensus is "artificially" creating a smoke ring is "cheating".  It's easy to do, which is why it doesn't buy you any points in competition.
> 
> But if you want to do it, rub on some Morton Tender Quick, let it stand a bit, and rinse it off.


Really?? I suppose he TQ starts the process.


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## phishy (Oct 2, 2013)

huh!!  good info..i just got schooled...isn't science great!! 

that would explain why when i toss on a couple chunks of apple wood on the weber at a high temp (chicken and venny roast) i get a nice ring despite the short cooking time (an-hour-or-so-ish +/- )


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