# PID sale?



## $mok!ng (May 2, 2019)

do the recommenced replacement PID for a masterbuilt smoker ever go on sale?  Kinda tuff to spend 150$ on a 150$ smoker.


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## chopsaw (May 2, 2019)

$mok!ng said:


> do the recommenced replacement PID for a masterbuilt smoker ever go on sale?  Kinda tuff to spend 150$ on a 150$ smoker.


Not sure about going on sale , but completely worth the money .


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## sm0kin (May 2, 2019)

I have the WiFi model from Auber, zero regrets. My smoker tuned with that pid cooks faster and more evenly.


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## Braz (May 2, 2019)

If you have an electric hotplate your PID controller can double as a sous vide controller. Might make the $150 a little easier to justify.


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## sm0kin (May 2, 2019)

Furthermore, I would say this has converted my $250 smoker into an $800 smoker imho.


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## dr k (May 2, 2019)

$mok!ng said:


> do the recommenced replacement PID for a masterbuilt smoker ever go on sale?  Kinda tuff to spend 150$ on a 150$ smoker.


With all the generations and million models, the all stainless steel cabinet and door is edging ahead on longevity with the older models.  Some newer ss I'd consider if I need a new box and door or additional smoker but painted door jambs so to speak have been giving people hell. I have the Gen 1 40 with emblem Masrebuilt Electric Smokehouse not stamped lettering on the door. All I need is a heating element and have a spare because notthing is forever.  I did ask Auber if they have sales and they gave me $5 off shipping if I bought within 5 days. I do sous vide with their chart on crockpots for no over shoot with P=4, I=0 and D=40 for the WS-1510ELPM. If I need more room I'll do a sous vide cooler mod with a stick circulating sous vide. I would have built a PID no problem but as 

 tallbm
 said, housing it compared to the small Auber was a no brainer. Plus support with charts for your specific model and tried and true algorithm parameters on rice cookers, steam tables, crockpots and roasters for sous vide. I'll buy another again or have it repaired if this one dies before I do.


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## tallbm (May 2, 2019)

$mok!ng said:


> do the recommenced replacement PID for a masterbuilt smoker ever go on sale?  Kinda tuff to spend 150$ on a 150$ smoker.



I don't think they ever go on sale.

Like 

 sm0kin
 mentioned, once you add the Auber PID your $150 smoker performs so well it feels like an $800 smoker.
If this helps justify the cost just imagine now that you can do bacon, sausage, ground formed sandwich meat, etc. without worrying about giant temp swings that may cause fat out and wreck the food.
Also you can now precisely hold temps without swings for things like Jerky.
You can now truly hit 275F for hotter/faster smokes on things like Briskets, Beef Ribs, and Pork butts!

With all of these new and/or improved smoking capabilities alone you have basically transformed your smoker into a brand new one.  It really does get cool how the mes performance/behavior becomes soooo much better!

That is a no BS elevator pitch to help justify the cost.  I understand the apprehension I had it to.  I had it to the point where I found an MES40 on craigslist for $45 and used it as a test subject and if I didn't like it all I would toss it and resell my PID on ebay hahaha.  I went the complete opposite direction and gave that smoker to my mother as a gift and I went crazy and bought a HeaterMeter PID (very techy and not a plug and play PID) and used it for MY MES40 hahaha.


I hope this info helps! :)


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## chopsaw (May 2, 2019)

I was lookig at a smoker from TSM . About $1k , until I found out it did not have a PID . So I decided to add the Auber to my MES . I paid $156 for the controller , only paid $149 for the smoker , that's now 5 years old  . Turned into an awesome smoker for a small amount of money .


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## mosparky (May 2, 2019)

I've watched the prices on Aubers for nearly 4 years, Never have they gone on sale. There is one that has been maked "sale" for a couple of years. The prices have usually gone up moderately at the beginning of each year. You snooze, you loose.
 I bought my MES knowing the short-comings and planned from the beginning to up-grade to PID. What I didn't plan on was rain EVERY dang time I have a day off or spare time to smoke. With a little careful planning and ingenuity, I think I can rain proof the Auber set-up and use it rain or shine.
As said before, it is a buy once, cry once situation. The Auber can be used for other applications and moved easily to another smoker, should you ever completely wear out the first one or "shit happens".


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## dr k (May 3, 2019)

mosparky said:


> I've watched the prices on Aubers for nearly 4 years, Never have they gone on sale. There is one that has been maked "sale" for a couple of years. The prices have usually gone up moderately at the beginning of each year. You snooze, you loose.
> I bought my MES knowing the short-comings and planned from the beginning to up-grade to PID. What I didn't plan on was rain EVERY dang time I have a day off or spare time to smoke. With a little careful planning and ingenuity, I think I can rain proof the Auber set-up and use it rain or shine.
> As said before, it is a buy once, cry once situation. The Auber can be used for other applications and moved easily to another smoker, should you ever completely wear out the first one or "shit happens".


Rain or shine! It's out of the rain but the sun still hits it so......


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## tallbm (May 3, 2019)

dr k said:


> Rain or shine! It's out of the rain but the sun still hits it so......
> View attachment 394678



Hahaha nice!  It looks like the Auber is having a day at the beach and just needs a beer :)  (FYI, in Texas we can drink on the beaches but there is usually an ordinance against bottles so cans, kegs, and boxed drinks are all fair game :)


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## normanaj (May 4, 2019)

Inkbird PIDs are under $40.I have no idea how good or bad they are compared to the Aubers,maybe someone here can shine some light on that.


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## JZ_Focus (May 4, 2019)

Totally worth the money to get the Auber.  I had a a hard time too with the initial cost, but at that time my options were get a new smoker, or buy the auber and upgrade my existing unit.  Overall the auber is cheaper than a new masterbuilt smoker, and the auber make controlling the temp so much easier that it was worth every penny I paid for it.


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## Steve H (May 4, 2019)

normanaj said:


> Inkbird PIDs are under $40.I have no idea how good or bad they are compared to the Aubers,maybe someone here can shine some light on that.



The only advantage I see with the Auber PID over the InkBird is that some of the Aubers can do ramp and soak steps. I haven't found a InkBird that does this. Other then that my InkBird is very good at maintaining temp to within a few degrees.


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## tallbm (May 4, 2019)

normanaj said:


> Inkbird PIDs are under $40.I have no idea how good or bad they are compared to the Aubers,maybe someone here can shine some light on that.



It depends.
I'm not sure that Inkbird sells a "plug and play" version that is equivalent to the Auber PID. 
This means you have to build the complete unit (Inkbird PID, wiring, Solid State Relay, housing unit, chords, sockets, etc.)

I know Inkbird has some units that SEEM plug and play but I believe those units aren't made to handle the the needs of a 1400Watt element or they have a max temp control limitation that may not go above 225F or something like that.

So in the end it comes down to knowledge, experience, and preference.

If you have never built a controller unit with the parts (PID, Solid State Relay, wiring, housing unit, etc.) then the common Inkbird PID stand alone unit is not really an option unless you just really want to spend the money and learn how to build a complete unit.

The Auber PID "plug and play" is already built for you AND is very competitive to the cost of you building one if you bought all the pieces (I compared the 2 options during my PID journey).

So rule of thumb:  If you don't know or care to learn how to build one then go with an Auber PID.
If you are familiar with this stuff and CAN build a whole unit then go whatever route suites you.

If you are trying to save a buck and are thinking you can use an Inkbird like the one in the following image YOU BETTER look really hard at the specs, limitation, and behavior because I have yet to see one handle a 1400Watt element or one that can do enough.  You might get lucky and find one that can work with the 800Watt elements but AGAIN look at all the specs and behavior to see if REALLY can do what you need for a controller.  I believe someone her on the forum uses an Inkbird like the one below but they are like limited to 200F degrees or something else funny but it works for them to do sausage or jerky or something like that so it fits their very particular goals.







I hope all this info helps! :)


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## Steve H (May 5, 2019)

I was under the assumption that he was going to build a PID. Not use one of the pre-built ones. Tallbm is correct with the InkBird plug and play ones. While I was searching for a plug and play unit I found a InkBird that can handle 1100 watts and go to 212 degrees. Which made me decide to build a controller. Actually I'm building another that can do ramps/soaks. I got a Fuji controller for a excellent price that can do 8 ramp/soak cycles. I got the rest of the items on line for under 50.00 . I'm going to use this one for SV as well as my other smoker. I don't know if you have the skill/ability/tools to do this. But it could be another way to get a good controller without blowing a wad of cash on a Auber.


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## Mark Krenn (May 5, 2019)

I have a My Pin PID. $32.99 on Amazon. I installed it on my MES 40. Works awesome. I only had to buy a little extra 16ga wire and a weather rated electrical box. Was easy to install.


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## sigmo (May 6, 2019)

tallbm said:


> Hahaha nice!  It looks like the Auber is having a day at the beach and just needs a beer :)  (FYI, in Texas we can drink on the beaches but there is usually an ordinance against bottles so cans, kegs, and boxed drinks are all fair game :)



Does anyone sell "adult" juice boxes for beach use?  If not, they're missing out on a great market, IMO!  

--------------------------

I'm in the do it yourself camp, but unless you have the chops to do a safe build, I'd advise buying a complete solution.  A fire, injury, or death will cost you a LOT more than $150.

And it really is true that a properly modified smoker will be worth a lot more to you than what it might have been right out of the box.


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## Mark Krenn (May 6, 2019)

Um yeah. You do need to have “basic” knowledge for wiring. Put it this way, if you don’t know how to check oil on you car, don’t buy one of these. If your on a low budget and “think” you could do it, download a video on this install. There are several on YouTube.


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## Wakulla (May 6, 2019)

I bought a thermomart pid with time and temperature control and a built in 30amp relay for $50 off amazon. Used a new thermister from my thermoworks smoke kit. This PID does not use a thermocouple. Just gutted out all the masterbuilt electronics and rewired it with the pid. Nothing to it really. A couple of runs of high temp appliance wire and remove the masterbuilt temp sensors and replace with the new ones. Mount the controller in a plastic box and install it with the same screws that held the masterbuilt controller in place.

Now my PID controller and thermoworks smoke agree on temperature within a few degrees depending on where in the smoker i place the smoke sensor. Set it on 225 and it goes from 221 to 228 for a complete 12 hr smoking cycle


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## tallbm (May 6, 2019)

sigmo said:


> Does anyone sell "adult" juice boxes for beach use?  If not, they're missing out on a great market, IMO!
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> ...



HAhaha, the adult juice boxes for TX beaches are mostly made by Franzia :P
Yeah I'm with you.  If not knowing or capable of building a PID the $150  plus the simple rewire makes the MES a whole new machine!




Mark Krenn said:


> Um yeah. You do need to have “basic” knowledge for wiring. Put it this way, if you don’t know how to check oil on you car, don’t buy one of these. If your on a low budget and “think” you could do it, download a video on this install. There are several on YouTube.


I'm in agreement.  I think the average Joe would be best off just buying a plug and play unit and then tackle the simple rewire of the MES themselves.




Wakulla said:


> I bought a thermomart pid with time and temperature control and a built in 30amp relay for $50 off amazon. Used a new thermister from my thermoworks smoke kit. This PID does not use a thermocouple. Just gutted out all the masterbuilt electronics and rewired it with the pid. Nothing to it really. A couple of runs of high temp appliance wire and remove the masterbuilt temp sensors and replace with the new ones. Mount the controller in a plastic box and install it with the same screws that held the masterbuilt controller in place.
> 
> Now my PID controller and thermoworks smoke agree on temperature within a few degrees depending on where in the smoker i place the smoke sensor. Set it on 225 and it goes from 221 to 228 for a complete 12 hr smoking cycle


Hi there and welcome!
Cool little unit, I just looked it up.  Does it have a heat sink built in as well?


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## Wakulla (May 6, 2019)

tallbm said:


> HAhaha, the adult juice boxes for TX beaches are mostly made by Franzia :P
> Yeah I'm with you.  If not knowing or capable of building a PID the $150  plus the simple rewire makes the MES a whole new machine!
> 
> 
> ...



I have no clue. Have it in a vented plastic box. If it burns out i will get a different one next time. Just an experiment to see if i could get those temperature fluctuations under control. I know now it is possible.


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## chopsaw (May 6, 2019)

I'm all for what ever someone wants to do or works for them , but the thing that gets over looked with the cost of the plug and play Aubers is the features and settings it's able to do . I take full advantage of mine .


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## sm0kin (May 6, 2019)

tallbm said:


> HAhaha, the adult juice boxes for TX beaches are mostly made by Franzia :P
> Yeah I'm with you.  If not knowing or capable of building a PID the $150  plus the simple rewire makes the MES a whole new machine!
> 
> 
> ...


I have an extra one of those units in a project box I’d let go for $50 shipped if anyone is interested


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## sm0kin (May 6, 2019)

Duplicate deleted


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## Wakulla (May 6, 2019)

chopsaw said:


> I'm all for what ever someone wants to do or works for them , but the thing that gets over looked with the cost of the plug and play Aubers is the features and settings it's able to do . I take full advantage of mine .



I agree with you completely. You get what you pay for. I just didn't want to spend basicly what i spent on the smoker until i knew that a PID could really tame this smoker. Now i know. It works. I had fun doing it and if/when this cheap controller dies then the Auber will be on the short list.

But reality is all these electronic parts are cheap if you know where to get them. I bet they are all manufactured next door to each other in some chinese factory.


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## normanaj (May 6, 2019)

chopsaw said:


> I'm all for what ever someone wants to do or works for them , but the thing that gets over looked with the cost of the plug and play Aubers is the features and settings it's able to do . I take full advantage of mine .



I'm starting to lean that way myself.I've had the $69 MES30 for a year and still have another year on the Wallyworld warranty and am really wanting to the PID thing.Once the warranty is up it will be time but until then I'm doing pretty good with the crushed pellets and AMNTS u-bolt mod.


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## sigmo (May 6, 2019)

This whole smoking thing is a hobby for most of us.  And as with any hobby, hot-rodding, modification, experimentation, etc., is a big part of the fun.

Even if someone sold a perfect smoker that came with a fan aspirated mailbox, smoke condensing-cooling heat exchanger, AMNPS, circulating fan, PID temperature controller, four compartment probes and a couple of meat probes, WiFi connection and control/logging apps for Android and IPhone, a Windows PC program as well as Linux and Mac versions....

We'd all be modifying the darn thing anyhow!


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## fivetricks (May 6, 2019)

I keep wanting to jump into the PID pool, but the more research I get, the farther away from a solution I keep feeling lol.

I have a MES and a UDS. I'd love one for both.


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## kmbelt81 (May 7, 2019)

I made one from an InkBird also after seeing what Steve H did.  Haven't had a chance to use it yet though.  Might have cost me $50 at most.  I always keep random junk around.


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## JC in GB (May 7, 2019)

If you are handy with electronics, you can craft your own unit for under $50.

This is where I get most of my electronic parts.  Slow delivery but can't beat the pricing.

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesal...d=SB_20190507100722&SearchText=PID+controller


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## tallbm (May 7, 2019)

fivetricks said:


> I keep wanting to jump into the PID pool, but the more research I get, the farther away from a solution I keep feeling lol.
> 
> I have a MES and a UDS. I'd love one for both.



For the MES you would need a PID controller that uses a Solid State Relay (which likely needs a Heat Sink).
For the UDS you could use a PID controller that hooks up to a blower fan.  As the temp drops the blower fan kicks on to stoke the coals/wood to keep your temp :)

I haven't ever used the blower fan setup but that is what smokers like the Big Green Egg and others use to control their smokes.  Hopefully someone with 1st hand experience will chime in on the blower fan controller setups :)


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## Wakulla (May 7, 2019)

JC in GB said:


> If you are handy with electronics, you can craft your own unit for under $50.
> 
> This is where I get most of my electronic parts.  Slow delivery but can't beat the pricing.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesal...d=SB_20190507100722&SearchText=PID+controller



As i expected parts are really cheap. Just wonder if some are better than others. From what i have read pid's are very simple electronics. Sure is fun figuring all this stuff out. Who knew barbeque could be so much fun.


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## sigmo (May 7, 2019)

And I'm curious as to what all is controlled in, for example, a pit Boss series 5 or 7 pellet burner.

I briefly examined one at a store here, and it has a motorized corkscrew pellet feeder, electrical heating element to ignite pellets (perhaps only at start-up), and a blower.

The controller could control both the blower speed and the pellet feed.  But it may only control the pellet feed.  Beats me!

I really like the precise control you have with an "all-electric" smoker.  But unless you go to a 220V system, you are limited in power, and therefore the size of your smoker.


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## Wakulla (May 7, 2019)

sigmo said:


> And I'm curious as to what all is controlled in, for example, a pit Boss series 5 or 7 pellet burner.
> 
> I briefly examined one at a store here, and it has a motorized corkscrew pellet feeder, electrical heating element to ignite pellets (perhaps only at start-up), and a blower.
> 
> ...



I believe you could get an electric heating element for as big a smoker as you want to build. They melt steel, aluminum and glass and just about anything else with electricity.


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## sigmo (May 7, 2019)

The problem for a manufacturer of smokers for sale at retail stores is that they would not sell many of a model that requires a 220V outlet to use.  Most people would not have a convenient 220 outlet near their porch or deck, so they'd need to have one installed.

A normal 120V outlet is on a 20 Amp circuit.  To get a 120V appliance UL listed, it won't be over about 1800 Watts.  So that's the practical limit for power that a manufacturer will face.

Thus, the bigger smokers are going to be gas or pellet fired, or charcoal, I guess.

Sure, you can build a 5,000 Watt smoker.  But the market will be limited because of the expense to have a special outlet installed for it.  It won't be "plug and play" for most people.


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## Mark Krenn (May 7, 2019)

I have all 3. Pellet, 120 and 240 never can have too many


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## sigmo (May 7, 2019)

I can wire up my own 220 outlet with GFCI double pole breaker to be right next to the man-door leading to the deck where we do the smoking.  So I could buy, but may well build my own 220V - powered larger smoker at some point.

But I'd be curious to hear your reviews of your pellet burner and your 220V smoker.

The pre-built Pit Boss pellet burner I saw impressed me for its size, shape, upper temperature ability, and adjustable shelves.

I am tempted to buy one and try it out as designed by the manufacturer and see what I think.

Because it heats by combustion, it could produce the smoke ring style results associated with burning wood as the heat source, and with the temperature control that a microprocessor controlling the pellet feed and combustion blower can give me.

So that is intriguing.

And if I don't like the way it works as designed, it seems like a good "carcass" to start with to add a high-wattage electric element, the AMNPS, and use my PAC system to control it all.

Or I could keep it as a pellet burner but improve (if necessary) the control of the blower and the pellet feeder.

The hobbyist smoker nerd toy potential is fantastic!


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## Wakulla (May 8, 2019)

sigmo said:


> I can wire up my own 220 outlet with GFCI double pole breaker to be right next to the man-door leading to the deck where we do the smoking.  So I could buy, but may well build my own 220V - powered larger smoker at some point.
> 
> But I'd be curious to hear your reviews of your pellet burner and your 220V smoker.
> 
> ...



Well if you need bigger then the fast Eddie 240 is for you.

Or for electric  the cookshack amerique might be just the ticket.


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## scarfa211 (May 8, 2019)

WSD-1500H-W is on sale now for 10 bucks off.  249.99


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## tallbm (May 8, 2019)

sigmo said:


> I can wire up my own 220 outlet with GFCI double pole breaker to be right next to the man-door leading to the deck where we do the smoking.  So I could buy, but may well build my own 220V - powered larger smoker at some point.
> 
> But I'd be curious to hear your reviews of your pellet burner and your 220V smoker.
> 
> ...



Hey Sigmo have you checked out the PitBoss 3 Series Analog and Digital smokers?  They have 1650W elements and can get up to 350F with their insulation, etc. (according to the marketing info on the website).
https://pitboss-grills.com/Shop-Pit-Boss/Grills/vertical-smokers

The analog is only $206!  That guy is begging for a PID and since it can handle 350F it covers basically all smoking applications.



scarfa211 said:


> WSD-1500H-W is on sale now for 10 bucks off.  249.99



Ooh nice!  I guess they do get discounted sometimes but not by much hahahha.


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## JC in GB (May 8, 2019)

Hi there and welcome!
Cool little unit, I just looked it up.  Does it have a heat sink built in as well?
[/QUOTE]

If it is relay output, why would you need a heat sink?


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## tallbm (May 8, 2019)

JC in GB said:


> Hi there and welcome!
> Cool little unit, I just looked it up.  Does it have a heat sink built in as well?
> 
> If it is relay output, why would you need a heat sink?



I'm by no means an expert in this area but my understanding is that it would likely use a Solid State Relay(SSR) vs a simpler relay since simple relays might get hammered and worn out quickly where an SSR is built to handle such a situation.

The 30A SSR units I have seen all seem to require having a heat sink to keep them from overheating.

Again I'm not some export or work with these things all the time but that is my understanding and what I have seen with PID units and the parts we are discussing :)


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## JC in GB (May 8, 2019)

You are correct an SSR would need a heat sink.  A mechanical relay would not.  I didn't know that was an SSR output on that unit.


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## Wakulla (May 8, 2019)

I have one. It works for now. Don't even know what a heat sink is and don't know if it has one

Anyone care to educate me. Smoker is pulling less than 10 amps off a 30 amp relay so what does that mean


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## JC in GB (May 8, 2019)

Wakulla said:


> I have one. It works for now. Don't even know what a heat sink is and don't know if it has one
> 
> Anyone care to educate me. Smoker is pulling less than 10 amps off a 30 amp relay so what does that mean



A heat sink protects silicon switches from heat damage during operation.  Mechanical relays don't generally need heat sinks because of the low resistance of the contacts.  An SSR will heat each time it is turned on and off and somewhat more while running a continuous load.  This heat increases with current.  An off the shelf controller with an SSR output rated for 30 amps should need no external heatsink.  If the controller output only drives an SSR then you would need an SSR and heatsink.  I hope I have explained this properly.


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## Wakulla (May 8, 2019)

So if i understand you right since the relay is built into the controller then it doesn't need a heat sink but had i bought one separately that was controlled by the pid then it would need a heat sink?


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## JC in GB (May 8, 2019)

Wakulla said:


> So if i understand you right since the relay is built into the controller then it doesn't need a heat sink but had i bought one separately that was controlled by the pid then it would need a heat sink?



Yes.


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## JC in GB (May 8, 2019)

Okay I went and looked at your controller specs.  You will be fine running 30 A at 120VAC with no heatsink.  In other words, you're golden.


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## Wakulla (May 8, 2019)

Great

So much for dumb luck


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## Wakulla (May 8, 2019)

You know i still would like to know what a heat sink is and how they are installed


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## sigmo (May 9, 2019)

Wakulla said:


> As i expected parts are really cheap. Just wonder if some are better than others. From what i have read pid's are very simple electronics. Sure is fun figuring all this stuff out. Who knew barbeque could be so much fun.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

A PID controller can appear simple from the user's point of view.

But the various tasks it performs are rather complex and involved when you get into the design of the temperature measurement parts and the program that implements the PID control as well.

So we're fortunate that large demand and mass manufacturing allow us to buy theses gadgets so cheaply.  Often most of the work is done by a single integrated circuit, so things appear simple.  But deep inside, it's a different story.

And less expensive controllers may cut costs by failing to do the temperature measurement as well as we might like or taking other shortcuts.  But usually, they work rather well!



Wakulla said:


> Well if you need bigger then the fast Eddie 240 is for you.
> 
> Or for electric  the cookshack amerique might be just the ticket.



I don't think I need one as big as even the Amerique!  But they do look pretty nice!!!  :)



tallbm said:


> Hey Sigmo have you checked out the PitBoss 3 Series Analog and Digital smokers?  They have 1650W elements and can get up to 350F with their insulation, etc. (according to the marketing info on the website).
> https://pitboss-grills.com/Shop-Pit-Boss/Grills/vertical-smokers
> 
> The analog is only $206!  That guy is begging for a PID and since it can handle 350F it covers basically all smoking applications.



I was looking at those, and you're right, I'd just get the analog unit since I'd be controlling it with an external gadget, anyhow.

The thing is, they're about the same size as the MES40 I already have, and it's working fine.  My reason for looking at a new unit was the size of that Pit Boss 5 series.  And those adjustable shelf holders in the 5 really looked like they'd be handy.  It's considerably bigger than my MES 40, but not too big.  It really was the Goldilocks "just right" size.  :)



Wakulla said:


> You know i still would like to know what a heat sink is and how they are installed



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink

If you're looking to keep a solid state relay cool, there will be some calculations required to figure out exactly what you need to do.

But the basic idea is that the solid state relay contains a pair of SCRs, or a single TRIAC.  Those devices are not 100% efficient at conducting current when they're in their "ON State".  There is always a small voltage drop across the device.  With back-to-back SCRs, the voltage drop is fairly low, usually around 1 volt.  With a TRIAC, the voltage drop can be higher, perhaps 3 volts.

Now that doesn't sound like much, but let's say we're powering an 1800 Watt heating element that runs on 120VAC.  To get 1800 Watts at 120VAC, the heater will draw 15 Amps.

Now just to be "worst case", let's say your SSR uses a TRIAC, and that TRIAC is dropping 3 Volts when in the "ON State" (yes, that's probably a high estimate, but whatever!)

Since power is voltage times current, we have 3 Volts times 15 Amps, and that's 45 Watts.

If we do not use a heat sink, that SSR will get very hot in a real hurry.  45 Watts doesn't sound like a lot, but it really is a lot of heat when confined to a small device.  And if that device has no way to get rid of that heat, it will get very hot. Hot enough to destroy itself.

And the manufacturers of most solid state relays design them with the idea that they will be used with a heat sink.  They're not able to operate at their rated current unless they're properly attached to a correctly sized heat sink.

So we almost always need a heat sink to conduct that heat away from the SSR and transfer it to the atmosphere to keep the SSR at a safe temperature.

The Wikipedia article describes how that works.

Different SSRs have different styles of heat spreaders and mounting arrangements.  But the basic idea is that you want to mount the SSR to a heat sink in such a way that the heat can flow easily from the SSR's heat spreader to the heat sink.

Usually, we use a thermally-conductive grease between the heat spreader of the SSR and the surface of the heat sink.  That grease fills in the microscopic pores and roughness of the two surfaces, and allows heat to flow across the gaps.  This can improve the heat transfer a lot!

There are curves and formulas on the heat sink manufacturers' websites and in their databooks to let you calculate how large of a heat sink you will need to keep a device at a certain temperature given various power levels, ambient temperatures, elevation above sea level, air flow conditions, mounting orientation, etc.

Always remember that it doesn't do you any good to put a heat sink on an SSR if that whole thing is then installed inside of a tight enclosure with no air flow.  The idea is to get rid of that heat.

Often, you'll see heat sinks mounted to the outsides of enclosures with their fins exposed for good heat transfer to the outside world.  The semiconductor device is then mounted to the inside side of the heat sink so it's protected but able to dump its heat out to the outside world via that heat sink.


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## tallbm (May 9, 2019)

JC in GB said:


> You are correct an SSR would need a heat sink.  A mechanical relay would not.  I didn't know that was an SSR output on that unit.



I didn't dig into the specs to see if it was an SSR or a regular mechanical relay on that unit.
My understanding of regular mechanical relays is that they won't fair to well with being switched on/off at faster or higher rates.  In those cases an SSR is needed.

I mention this because (I believe) my HeaterMeter PID would be sending signal for the relay to switch off and on a lot so I imagine I would wear out a mechanical relay very quickly where the SSR will have no problems.

Now the PID that has the relay built in could take measures to not overwork the relay.  Heck the MES uses a relay and I think part of the design that causes such large swings is to prevent fast/heavy switching from occuring with the relay they use.  The MES switches on for a long period to heat and then switches off for a long period to cool, hence the swings and a safe relay :)


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## sigmo (May 10, 2019)

Mechanical relays often have a guaranteed life span of 10 million operations or so.  And this life can be even lower when they're asked to switch a heavy load.

Sounds like a lot until you calculate how quickly that might happen if the relay is being run by a PID control set to a cycle period of, say, one second.

A SSR becomes a necessity for fast cycle time operation.  But you could set up a much longer cycle time for your PID and still get away with a mechanical relay if you really preferred one.

Another reason the MESs cycle their heaters so slowly is that in order to get their original chip burners to make the chips smoke, they have to get the heating element red hot.  And when we run their heater with a rapidly-cycling PID, the element runs at a constant lower temperature once the smoker itself comes up to temperature.

So while you might get smoke at start-up, once your smoker was up to temperature, you'd get no more smoke.

This is the main reason that we need an alternate smoke source (like an AMNPS) if we convert a MES to PID temperature control.

You can't have fast heater cycling and also use the original smoke chip burner system.

Without a separate pellet burner, the MES must cycle its heating element on for long enough periods to assure that the element will get the chips smoldering periodically.  So as designed, they're doomed to require large temperature swings.

If the average temperature of the smoker can be maintained at our desired setting, the large swings really aren't a problem.  But without a temperature logging system that lets us see the temperatures graphically, and calculate the true average temperature, it's hard for people to have confidence in their smoker's temperature control.

Just checking the temperature occasionally, we can end up seeing "snapshots" of what the controller is achieving.  So that's one reason for people's unhappiness with the original temperature controls in the MESs.

The average user might get good cooking results and not be aware of the cycling at all.  The displays on the MESs may be designed to show the average temperature and not the instantaneous value, so as to show the "effective" temperature and not worry the user.

Then, us nerds compare our fancy temperature probes to what the MES indicates, we get overly concerned. :)

Still, I prefer a separate smoke generator (like my AMNPS).  And I prefer smooth temperature control  like a PID controller can give.

I just like having independent control over temperature and smoke.  I don't like the idea of having the smoke only be generated when the heater is on full blast.  And I don't like having the temperature of the smoker cycle so much just because that's required to get any smoke.


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## JC in GB (May 10, 2019)

I agree with what Sigmo has presented here.  An SSR will switch better for rapid switching than a mechanical relay.  Temperature controls using mechanical contacts usually have a good deal of hysteresis engineered in to prevent rapid switching of the contacts.

As far as resources for getting this stuff, I have had great luck with aliexpress for electronic components and assemblies.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4-I...65-4ba0-8686-2f9ec53902fb&transAbTest=ae803_5


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## $mok!ng (May 11, 2019)

I didn't realize how bad the temperature swing were in my smoker.  I just bought an inkbird IBT-4XP and was able to monitor my cook better, and the ap allows me to view the temp for the duration of the cook.  I set alarm to notify my when my smoker dropped below 215 and went above 240.  I set the smoker to 225 and was getting alarms every 15 minutes, as my smoker temp dropped below 215.  I had no idea the temperature swings were that bad.  Also it seems like the thermometer in the masterbuilt smokers has a bit of a delay (possibly causes the large swings).  This is further reason to look into the aftermarket PID's.  Again with the Auber I don't expect to utilize it to its fullest potential.  Its like buying the top of the line computer to play solitaire.


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## tallbm (May 11, 2019)

$mok!ng said:


> I didn't realize how bad the temperature swing were in my smoker.  I just bought an inkbird IBT-4XP and was able to monitor my cook better, and the ap allows me to view the temp for the duration of the cook.  I set alarm to notify my when my smoker dropped below 215 and went above 240.  I set the smoker to 225 and was getting alarms every 15 minutes, as my smoker temp dropped below 215.  I had no idea the temperature swings were that bad.  Also it seems like the thermometer in the masterbuilt smokers has a bit of a delay (possibly causes the large swings).  This is further reason to look into the aftermarket PID's.  Again with the Auber I don't expect to utilize it to its fullest potential.  Its like buying the top of the line computer to play solitaire.



Yeah the swings can be funny.  I didn't want to chance fat out after spending 12-14hours a day for 5-6 days processing all my wild game into sausage just for it to get ruined by temp swings.  I also didn't want any limitations to prevent me from smoking basically anything I wanted to smoke.  With the PID and the AMNPS I can smoke low for jerky, sausage, bacon.  Hot for briskets at a true 275F and super fast but hot poultry smokes at 325F (I swapped my safety limit switch with a higher limit one to do this for those quick cooks).


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## sigmo (May 11, 2019)

That really is a good point about the large temperature swings perhaps wrecking sausage and the like due to the overly-high temperatures at the peaks of the swings.

The chip-burner system in the MESs really does require that they put the power to the heater long and strong every so often to get some smoke from the chips.  And that really is far from ideal.

Using a separate smoke generating setup frees us to set up the temperature control to behave the way we really want it to.


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## sigmo (May 13, 2019)

I just put a nice tenderloin, that I cut, seasoned, vacuum packed, and froze six months ago, into a big pot with a sous vide recirculating heater/controller so my wife and I can have some of the best steak we've ever had later this evening.

I realize that's off topic for this thread.  But it has some relevance.

I've seen a few folks in this thread mention that they use their Auber (or other brand) PID controller to run some other heated water bath gadget to use it for a sous vide system.  That's well and good, but I have a recommendation.

Having worked for 40 years designing temperature control and data acquisition systems, I've done a lot of hands-on measurement of various temperature-controlled gadgets.  And one thing has been made very clear to me.  A STIRRED water bath is the most uniform and temperature-stable system you are ever likely to find.  And furthermore, a STIRRED water bath transfers heat to its contents faster and more uniformly than pretty much any other system you will run across.

So while a crock pot or deep fryer, or whatever may well work as a sous vide system when paired with a good PID controller, if you're not actively stirring the water in the bath, you are missing out on one of the key components of a uniform temperature control system.

You need to have a motorized stirrer.  Believe me, it makes a huge difference in uniformity.  Stratification and dead zones happen all too easily in any temperature-controlled system.  Stirring eliminates that problem.

So if you're gonna sous vide:  Use a stirrer.

And that brings me to this:

Excellent dedicated sous vide immersion circulators that incorporate a stirrer, heater, and PID controller all into one inexpensive small gadget are readily available.

As much as I like the idea of getting multiple benefits from a PID controller, I have to recommend getting a separate immersion circulator sous vide gadget.  They work great and are really convenient.

Besides, sometimes I sous vide while I'm also smoking!  You can get a good sous vide immersion circulator for around a hundred bucks.

You're gonna love having one.

My wife and I went to Vegas for pretty much the sole purpose of eating at some fancy restaurants.  We ate at Ruth's Chris, The Stratosphere, etc., and had Kobe beef steaks and other great meals.

But I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I tell you all that the tenderloin steaks we cut from lions we buy at Sam's Club, season, vac pack, freeze, and then cook in the sous vide, finishing simply by searing in butter in a hot skillet are the best steaks we've ever had.  Bar none!

And it's such a simple meal to prepare.  It's so forgiving, and always perfect.

Anyhow.  Sous Vide, baby!  And get an immersion circulator.  Use the PID controller on your smoker.  It's worth it just for that purpose alone.  :)


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## BuckeyeSteve (May 13, 2019)

I'm looking at this Inkbird for my MES 30.  Will this work?


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## BuckeyeSteve (May 13, 2019)

For some reason the link didn't show.


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## BuckeyeSteve (May 13, 2019)

Didn't work that time either.
Here is what I'm looking at.

*Inkbird F Display PID Temperature Controllers Thermostat ITC-106VH, K Sensor, Heat Sink and Solid State Relay, 100ACV - 240ACV (ITC-106VH + 40A SSR + White Heat Sink + K Probe)*


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## tallbm (May 14, 2019)

BuckeyeSteve said:


> I'm looking at this Inkbird for my MES 30.  Will this work?



It seems that should work!
That's a nice price for all the parts and simply regulating set temp.  Get you project box to fit it all in and you should be ready to rock and roll. :)


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## Wakulla (May 14, 2019)

I used a different one but that one should work just fine.

Nothing to wiring one up once you take the back off the smoker. There is a circuit board under the smoker where the chord goes in. I took out the circuit board and used that for a junction box for my power. Used some high temp. Appliance wire to wire it up. Everything is concealed just like storebought. Bought a plastic box to mount the controller in and mounted it in the same location as the old one with some corner brackets.

Works way better than it did originally. Temp swings are cut down to 3 or 4 degrees each way.


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## denny (Jul 15, 2019)

Have been gathering parts and knowledge to convert my Mes30 to PID control for quite some time now.  It seems the deeper I get, that what I thought I understood, becomes less clear!  At any rate, I have a Mypin TA4-SSR with TC/RTD input and SSR output wired in the usual manner.  What I want to know is--I want to have a panel led and alarm to indicate when the meat probe shows that the meat is done according to a temperature I set.  Is that possible and how do I do it?  If I use pins 5 and 6 (marked SSR and + and -) for the K-type probe, does that mean I need another SSR?  Or do I use the relay control pins 11 and 12 marked alarm 2, and then another SSR along with a K probe connected to pins 11 and 12?  And how do I get  the meat-is-done signal?  

As you can plainly see I hardly know what I'm talking about and much less how to do it!  I couldn't blame anyone for simply running away rather than tackle setting me straight!  For what it's worth I do understand simple schematics fairly well so just make a hand drawn one if you prefer--it would be better for me!

I have learned so much from this forum and really admire the knowledge and sense of wanting to help that is apparent in every post.  I would be so grateful for any instructions/advice that is offered.


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## Steve H (Jul 15, 2019)

The thermocouple going back to your controller will be for your ambient air temp. Not meat temp. You should get a wireless thermometer to monitor the meat temp. Inkbird has a great deal going on for a 6 probe unit for well under 50.00 check for his deal going on.


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## denny (Jul 15, 2019)

Steve H said:


> The thermocouple going back to your controller will be for your ambient air temp. Not meat temp. You should get a wireless thermometer to monitor the meat temp. Inkbird has a great deal going on for a 6 probe unit for well under 50.00 check for his deal going on.


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## 2008RN (Jul 15, 2019)

I bought a Auber SMD200, Solid State relay, and probes and wired myself.  for my fridge smoker. Works great. Auber Instruments was so great. I did a bench test with the setup, calibrated my probes, and then unwired and rewired in my box. I screwed up wired the 220V to the PID relay output. Fried the 12V circuit. I was at the final stage and just wanted to finish the smoker. I called Auber and told them what I did. They said that they would fix the PID for $10 with shipping and it would probably be 3-4 weeks including shipping. I ask what they could do on a new controller. They gave me a nice discount for a new PID shipped overnight, and I still had them fix that fried PID for $10. Now I have a spare for an extra PID to play with.

Excellent Customer service. I would not hesitate to by from them. They are worth the extra $s.


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## denny (Jul 16, 2019)

2008RN said:


> I bought a Auber SMD200, Solid State relay, and probes and wired myself.  for my fridge smoker. Works great. Auber Instruments was so great. I did a bench test with the setup, calibrated my probes, and then unwired and rewired in my box. I screwed up wired the 220V to the PID relay output. Fried the 12V circuit. I was at the final stage and just wanted to finish the smoker. I called Auber and told them what I did. They said that they would fix the PID for $10 with shipping and it would probably be 3-4 weeks including shipping. I ask what they could do on a new controller. They gave me a nice discount for a new PID shipped overnight, and I still had them fix that fried PID for $10. Now I have a spare for an extra PID to play with.
> 
> Excellent Customer service. I would not hesitate to by from them. They are worth the extra $s.


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## denny (Jul 18, 2019)

Thanks to all for your patience--have been having a bit of technical problem here making replies but hope all is ok now.

Thanks Steve for your comments.  I have several remote thermometers and have considered getting one with multiple probes.  In my experience they seem to die in 2 years or so which is not too bad if the cost is only $12 or so.  When the cost is around $50 and up, I can't be so cavalier.  Probably boils down to my level of trust in similar gadgets.  The Inkbird you suggested just may be right for me.  We'll see.

2008RN, the Auber appears to be the gold standard for temp control.  So many articles and posts refer to it which are a treasure trove to novices building a controller, like me.  As a practical matter, it's nearly 5 X the price of a Mypin eg, puts it out of my reach.  But I still want one!  

I still want to know if I can use this Mypin to signal an led and alarm when a specified meat temp is reached either with or without a separate probe.  It just seems to make sense to me to use the Mypin  for this if possible.  If not , no big deal--I'll just continue with my other remote devices!


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## Steve H (Jul 18, 2019)

That controller can only monitor/control the heat inside the smoker. It can not do what you want. Which is why most of us use a remote thermometers that has alarms to let you know the meat is at the temp you want. With more probes. You can get alarms for high or low temps of what ever you want. With mine I use it for ambient temp, meat temp,and mailbox temp. If I have different cuts/types of meat. The additional probes can be set for that as well. With the InkBird units there is a phone app that'll let you know what is going on.


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## denny (Jul 18, 2019)

Thanks for answering my question, Steve.  Now I can get on with setting it up!


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## Steve H (Jul 18, 2019)

My pleasure. Once you get that PID set up you'll be wondering why you didn't do this along time ago!


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