# Team 275



## dr k (Aug 3, 2017)

-Set MES to 275*F and leave it

-No wrap

I've been hearing more about this simple set it and forget it method outside SMF.  With my MES Gen1 40" my smoker averages 260*F with food in it, according to my calibrated therms when I set the smoker to 275*F.  I can average 275*F but the temp is uneven.  Putting my water pan on the bottom rack with a perforated stainless steel half circle for a 22.5" kettle grill underneath the water pan gives me great results.  The full length straight edge of the half circle butts up against the back wall. Since the water pan sits on top of this I'm really only utilizing the back 1/3 against the wall.













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__ dr k
__ Aug 28, 2016












Since I've exclusively been using my MES smoker the last two years I have not been spritzing flavor onto my food as I have before due to recovery time from the smoker being open a few seconds.  Other than adding flavor in liquid form the thermophoresis of wetting food to cool the outside allows for a different smoke profile since you can continue to add smokiness to the bark everytime its wetted. I like building bark with liquid sugar from apple juice mixed with bourbon and/or Apple cider vinegar etc, without adding a lot of brown sugar. This Team 275 method gives me:

-quicker recovery after spritzing

-great bark

-four hour rib smokes

-reduced stalls

-shorter smokes

I guess for me I'm smoking 25*F higher than before when I averaged 235*F with no adverse results and the above benefits.  Since there are different maximum temps between smokers with the same model #, max temp averages will still vary.  It's setting the MES to the highest temp and seeing what actual max temp average you get.  Then see if you find similar benefits as we have.

For bigger cuts of meat this works great but Jerky, snack sticks, sausage, fish etc.that need low temps won't work as well and usually have specific temps in their recipe.

I've read a few comments of those here on SMF about great results smoking at higher temps into the 300+*F (especially chicken) but not Team 275 which is in reference to MES.

Has anyone heard of Team 275 or regularly smoke above the 225*F norm?

-Kurt


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## SmokinAl (Aug 3, 2017)

There is no reason not to run your smoker at 275.

That is where my Lang like to run & I just let it.

If I want to smoke at 225 I have to really babysit it, but 270-280, adding a split every 45 minutes to an hour & it will stay there all day.

Al


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## dr k (Aug 3, 2017)

SmokinAl said:


> There is no reason not to run your smoker at 275.
> 
> That is where my Lang like to run & I just let it.
> 
> ...


Right!  When setting the MES to 275*F whether your using one shelf or all of them you get what you get and that eliminates that concern so you only have the IT of the food to track.  Not adjusting the temp of the smoker while working around the house makes for a more productive day.

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Aug 4, 2017)

Dr K said:


> -Set MES to 275*F and leave it
> 
> -No wrap
> 
> ...


Kurt, I think that what you'r saying about wetting the bark will continue to add more smokiness is that the liquid traps the smoke around the outside of the meat. Is this correct? As you know, I don't even use a water pan because I've found smoking in a dry chamber to be very adequate. I just smoked a whole brisket ( I sliced the point/flat half from the flat-only half to fit it on two racks) and found no need to spritz either the point or the flat because each section of meat produced plenty of pooled juices on their own. The flat on the lower rack absorbed more smoke flavor than the point on the rack above it but I've got them both vacuum wrapped so we'll see how the smoke flavor develops when my family chows down on the flat and the Burnt Ends at dinner tomorrow. But besides the smokiness goodness, the meat in both sections was really moist. I was especially amazed at the moistness of the point meat since it smoked naked for about 18.5 hours. 

I've chosen never to smoke at 275°F. In fact, I do my best to let the temp get no hired than 242° using a 235°. Once the controller stops its long heating cycles it settles down to remaining more or less stable at my set point. I know that 275 is one of Myron Mxon's favorite temps for his pro offset rig but his later recipes call for temps of 240 or 250. For me, 275 is at the hight end of low and slow. At some point I'll try smoking 2 racks of b-backs at around 240 and try two others at 275 and compare the differences in the results, if any. I have no scientific basis for my opinion but I'm concerned that smoking in my MES 30 at its max temp might prematurely wear out the wiring and the heating element components.


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## dr k (Aug 7, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> Kurt, I think that what you'r saying about wetting the bark will continue to add more smokiness is that the liquid traps the smoke around the outside of the meat. Is this correct? As you know, I don't even use a water pan because I've found smoking in a dry chamber to be very adequate. I just smoked a whole brisket ( I sliced the point/flat half from the flat-only half to fit it on two racks) and found no need to spritz either the point or the flat because each section of meat produced plenty of pooled juices on their own. The flat on the lower rack absorbed more smoke flavor than the point on the rack above it but I've got them both vacuum wrapped so we'll see how the smoke flavor develops when my family chows down on the flat and the Burnt Ends at dinner tomorrow. But besides the smokiness goodness, the meat in both sections was really moist. I was especially amazed at the moistness of the point meat since it smoked naked for about 18.5 hours.
> 
> I've chosen never to smoke at 275°F. In fact, I do my best to let the temp get no hired than 242° using a 235°. Once the controller stops its long heating cycles it settles down to remaining more or less stable at my set point. I know that 275 is one of Myron Mxon's favorite temps for his pro offset rig but his later recipes call for temps of 240 or 250. For me, 275 is at the hight end of low and slow. At some point I'll try smoking 2 racks of b-backs at around 240 and try two others at 275 and compare the differences in the results, if any. I have no scientific basis for my opinion but I'm concerned that smoking in my MES 30 at its max temp might prematurely wear out the wiring and the heating element components.


The Link below is the same site you got your info about mythbusting the smoke ring from Dr. Blonder but this link was in the table of contents about how the heat source influences flavor and wood, smoke and combustion.  I have never put anything in the Mes water pan and I spritz for the thermophoresis of it and the flavor of the spritz.  Since liquids in the smoker in the water pan just reduce and concentrate flavors in the water pan as water vapor is released,  liquid flavoring needs to be applied directly to the surface of the meat.  The bottom portion of this link (end of the 2/3rds point of this article) is about thermophoresis being a force and how it moves particles from a warm to a cool surface and myths about letting food that is cooked low and slow to sit out at room temp first. I like my bourbon flavor and the only way to get it is to mop/spritz it directly on the meat and then I also get the benefit of thermophoresis with continued smoke adhesion.  Especially with pork butts with the little surface area to mass ratio, being more round in shape.  Since smoke doesn't penetrate very deeply I like a heavier smoky bark to be incorporated into all the pork when pulling.  So spraying any water based liquid will continue the smoke building.  Sometimes early in the smoke the rub dries and will remain that way until the meat cooks, shrinks and pushes up juice for that area to now kick start thermophoresis.  So your Q is absorbing less smoke than It could be at the beginning if your looking at meat with a dry surface.  Then if wrapping at the stall your dry surface meat may never get the amount of smoke you expected.  The two tests and analogies in this link really simplify this phenomenon. So to recap I don't put anything in my Mes water pan because I have no dried out meat problems and I spritz liquid flavor onto my meat.  For other smokers outside of us watt burners, spritzing is smoke ring building for those that need the visual. To allow the transfer of those water soluble gases into the meat and to cool the outside as long as possible before the ring ends and the meat turns grey from cooking.  I like the look of the smoke ring but if I had to have it I wouldn't have used my Mes exclusively over the last couple years.  I don't spritz everything just quicker smokes like the Team 275 ribs that are naked the whole time and are done in 4-4.5 hours.  Then pork butt's for the reason I mentioned above. 

 http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/zen_of_wood.html

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Aug 14, 2017)

SmokinAl said:


> There is no reason not to run your smoker at 275.
> 
> That is where my Lang like to run & I just let it.
> 
> ...


Well, you're the voice of authority so I might start giving it a try. But most smoker recipes call for temps between 225 and 250. I was using my MES 30 Gen 1 yesterday and I had the controller set for 260 because my desired set point was 250. I figured that when it hit 260 and I dropped it back down to 250 the temp wouldn't keep rising. I was surprised to see that before I lowered the controller temp it bypassed 260, 275, and then hit 286 or so. I thought perhaps my ET-733 BBQ probe was touching a rack but it wasn't.  So the MES temp _will _go past its stated maximum temp. But the good news is that when I lowered the controller temp to 250, it never shot up that high again. In fact, at one point it was showing 10 degrees _below_ set point before I chose to boost it again. But over the 2.5 hour smoke the temp actually stated pretty constant. My MES 30 Gen 1 is over 5 years old, I've only replaced the controller once with another MES stock controller, and it continues to perform like the champ it is.

What's a split?


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## daricksta (Aug 14, 2017)

Dr K said:


> -Set MES to 275*F and leave it
> 
> -No wrap
> 
> ...


I think I told you in another thread that I successfully smoked a whole brisket--point and flat--unwrapped, but the smoker temp was 240-250. I'm now stuck with about 30' of butcher paper because I don't expect to ever wrap brisket--or pork ribs--again. As for smoking at 275°, I was concerned that at that higher temp it wouldn't exactly be low and slow, but as you said it should work great for large cuts of meat. My next smoke will be a chucky and it'll be going in at 275°.


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## dr k (Aug 14, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> I think I told you in another thread that I successfully smoked a whole brisket--point and flat--unwrapped, but the smoker temp was 240-250. I'm now stuck with about 30' of butcher paper because I don't expect to ever wrap brisket--or pork ribs--again. As for smoking at 275°, I was concerned that at that higher temp it wouldn't exactly be low and slow, but as you said it should work great for large cuts of meat. My next smoke will be a chucky and it'll be going in at 275°.


Give it a try and see. Like I mentioned my smoker averages 260*F on my calibrated digital therms when my smoker is set to 275*F. So I'm 10-20*F higher than your smoked brisket. I was wondering for those that put the Amnps in their smoker if the higher temp would provide more air to keep the amnps going from a stronger draft coming into the smoker from the increased convection. The split from the other post you asked about is a split of wood you'd use in a smoker or fireplace. Just a bigger piece of wood than several chunks. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Aug 15, 2017)

Dr K said:


> Give it a try and see. Like I mentioned my smoker averages 260*F on my calibrated digital therms when my smoker is set to 275*F. So I'm 10-20*F higher than your smoked brisket. I was wondering for those that put the Amnps in their smoker if the higher temp would provide more air to keep the amnps going from a stronger draft coming into the smoker from the increased convection. The split from the other post you asked about is a split of wood you'd use in a smoker or fireplace. Just a bigger piece of wood than several chunks.
> -Kurt


Going to combine several of your posts into one here.

I've noticed over the years that the AMNPS does perform better at higher temps, not as good with cold smoking in cold weather in the MES 30. 

I'm not going to do the spritizing thing. On Sunday I smoked a pork loin where the recipe called for basting it every 30 minutes. It was a hassle, having to stop the movie my son and I were watching every half hour, the recovery time it took for the smoker to build back up to my set point, and just the hassle of having to get up and take care of it. It did result in crispy skin, though. But I'm in essence a lazy, set it and forget it guy. I like smokes where I can be inside and monitor the smoker temp and the meat IT, and double check to make sure wood pellet smoke is still rising from the top vent. 

I haven't read that term split in years. But now I forget the context in which you used it. Been a long time since we had a fireplace, and I use wood chunks now with my Weber kettle grill.


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## tallbm (Aug 21, 2018)

I'm basically a 275F guy, no wrap, set and forget with my MES40, HeaterMeter PID Controller, and AMNPS + MailboxMod.

I DO lower the temp when I want more smoke flavor though.  So stuff like brined pork loin chops or boneless skinless chicken breast and ribs.  

I think I am going to experiment with my ribs and go up to 275F to an IT of 198F on spares.  I want to see if cooking them faster with a higher heat will result in mahogany colored ribs or more blacked ribs.  I want to try and get mahogany ribs BUT this is purely a visual thing as they taste awesome either way :)


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## dr k (Aug 21, 2018)

tallbm said:


> I'm basically a 275F guy, no wrap, set and forget with my MES40, HeaterMeter PID Controller, and AMNPS + MailboxMod.
> 
> I DO lower the temp when I want more smoke flavor though.  So stuff like brined pork loin chops or boneless skinless chicken breast and ribs.
> 
> I think I am going to experiment with my ribs and go up to 275F to an IT of 198F on spares.  I want to see if cooking them faster with a higher heat will result in mahogany colored ribs or more blacked ribs.  I want to try and get mahogany ribs BUT this is purely a visual thing as they taste awesome either way :)


Right.  I did a chuck roast at 225* till IT 140* then sou vide at 140* for 24 hours last week.  That gave it 4+ hours of smoke and I'll keep doing that and tweeking the IT temp for tenderness.  And fish and raw cased sausages that start at 150* smoker temp and step up ten degrees/hr. till done.  The Team 275 is for meat that gets tender above 190* IT so there's plenty of time in the smoke.  FB has more Team 275 and is about even with 321 and 221 but is growing.  This pic of KC cut spares came with no brisket bone and was smoked at 275* for 5.5 hours and pulled at 199* IT.  The few people I smoke for and myself seem to prefer dry ribs over wet but there's always sauce out/simmering to change it up.


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## tallbm (Aug 21, 2018)

That looks great!

I would love to smoke some ribs this week but I've been swamped the past 2 months and had basically no time to smoke.  I plan to do 275F on the ribs next time.  I'm pretty sure I've done it before but I don't recall how they came out compared to my other ribs.  I do know that they cooked so much faster that I wanted more smoke flavor so I lowered the temp back down.  I'll revisit it again and take some notes for myself this time around since I'm experimenting to try and produce mahogany ribs when they are done lol :)

I can tell you without a doubt that vertically done ribs come out black black black every time for me but still taste great.  So I know that what ever happens with heat and airflow on a vertical rack of ribs does the opposite of what I want to do with the color :)


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## daricksta (Aug 21, 2018)

Great looking ribs, Kurt. In my house I am FORCED to slather some BBQ sauce on the ribs in the last 20 minutes or so. My wife and son prefer that texture to bark. I admit that I like the "skin" and sheen of the baked-on BBQ sauce as well. Otherwise, at the dinner table the sauce remains on the side for those who want more on their ribs.


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## dr k (Aug 21, 2018)

tallbm said:


> That looks great!
> 
> I would love to smoke some ribs this week but I've been swamped the past 2 months and had basically no time to smoke.  I plan to do 275F on the ribs next time.  I'm pretty sure I've done it before but I don't recall how they came out compared to my other ribs.  I do know that they cooked so much faster that I wanted more smoke flavor so I lowered the temp back down.  I'll revisit it again and take some notes for myself this time around since I'm experimenting to try and produce mahogany ribs when they are done lol :)
> 
> I can tell you without a doubt that vertically done ribs come out black black black every time for me but still taste great.  So I know that what ever happens with heat and airflow on a vertical rack of ribs does the opposite of what I want to do with the color :)


Thanks, they were juicy and this is the first ever slab I hung vertically from the top rack with the bones toward the heating element and the super thin tail in the pan opposite the element. It definitely kept the thin end from burning up and keeping me from replacing everything foil covered for just one whole slab of spares.


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## dr k (Aug 21, 2018)

daricksta said:


> Great looking ribs, Kurt. In my house I am FORCED to slather some BBQ sauce on the ribs in the last 20 minutes or so. My wife and son prefer that texture to bark. I admit that I like the "skin" and sheen of the baked-on BBQ sauce as well. Otherwise, at the dinner table the sauce remains on the side for those who want more on their ribs.


Thanks, I do like ribs sauced but I go with the dry ribs with just the Ms. and myself which is 95% of the time.  I reduce the sauce a little in a ceramic skillet to get it a little tacky and throw some cut ribs in.  If my daughters family is over or my parents I can sauce a slab or two like normal in the smoker.


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## Bearcarver (Aug 21, 2018)

I find there is a reason to not go to 275°, and that is cutting down your time to get good tasting Smoke.
I even moved my Prime Ribs to about 220° to get even more Light Smoke Flavor.
So I can say I don't see a reason to not use 230° or 240° or 250° or 260°.
It's all what you like. There all good, as long as you don't get it done too quick to get a lot of Light Smoke on it, or so you don't have to put Heavy Nasty Smoke on it because you got it done to soon.
But this is just my Opinion.

Higher Temps have their place (Brisket, Butts, Chuckies, or other big pieces of Meat) but so do lower Temp Smokes.

Bear


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## dr k (Aug 21, 2018)

Bearcarver said:


> I ecausethere is a reason to not go to 275°, and that is cutting down your time to get good tasting Smoke.
> I even moved my Prime Ribs to about 220° to get even more Light Smoke Flavor.
> So I can say I don't see a reason to not use 230° or 240° or 250° or 260°.
> It's all what you like. There all good, as long as you don't get it done too quick to get a lot of Light Smoke on it, or so you don't have to put Heavy Nasty Smoke on it because you got it done to soon.
> ...


Right, that was in post #12 regarding meats that get tender over 190*.  The Team 275 is for meat that gets tender above 190* IT so there's plenty of time in the smoke.  As long as I set a temp that I know will give me the time for at least a row of pellet smoke onto the food before the pull IT.  That's why I don't do reverse sear steaks much in the smoker unless it's a mini roast because by the time TBS starts enhancing the steak it's time to sear per IT.  I would do the Thermoworks reverse sear recipe which is the lowest temp RS recipe I've seen at 160-170* till IT 100* or what you want then sear or simpler yet, I'll just cold smoke with the Amnts in the grill and have it finished in two hours.  Yup, If it's not what you put in parenthesis, then I'm hot smoking somewhere in between 150*-250*.


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## dr k (Aug 21, 2018)

daricksta said:


> I think I told you in another thread that I successfully smoked a whole brisket--point and flat--unwrapped, but the smoker temp was 240-250. I'm now stuck with about 30' of butcher paper because I don't expect to ever wrap brisket--or pork ribs--again. As for smoking at 275°, I was concerned that at that higher temp it wouldn't exactly be low and slow, but as you said it should work great for large cuts of meat. My next smoke will be a chucky and it'll be going in at 275°.


I bought a roll of peach butcher's paper 18"X175' a year ago for $15.00 on Amazon and have not used it to smoke with but I put it over newspaper as a prep area on the kitchen table for ribs and large wet cryovaced butts etc. 

A couple years back you mentioned Aaron Franklin and the naked, foiled Texas Crutch and peach butcher's paper episode.  That segment didn't elaborate on when the peach paper was used (I think.)  The foil was to push through the stall but recently a Pitmaster keeps emphasizing that Franklin wrapped in peach butcher's paper when coming out of the stall when the bark is the texture and color you like it so not to steam as much as foil but to keep your bark firmer, in between naked and foiled.  This guy is all about Team 275 with ribs and butt's but talks about 250-275* for whole packer brisket.  For just brisket flats he foils at the stall to push through and pulls at 190* IT and does a mandatory 2+ hour cooler rest with towels to hold the heat and break down connective tissue to keep it from getting dry.  I'd use crumpled newspaper instead of towels to fill the cooler.  I never got into a mandatory cooler rest.  If it's tender and it has rested to cool and your ready to eat, eat it.  Otherwise it's a great way to hold when done early or transporting.  I did watch an episode of Franklin cooking his beef ribs at 285* naked the whole time.


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## zwiller (Aug 22, 2018)

I am on Team 275F now.  Most of my books are 275F too, Franklin, Mixon, etc.  I never eat off my smoker and for ribs, that means saucing and searing on the grill the next day or so.  Done right, the bark should get even crunchier at places while other places the sauce is nice and gooey (tech term).  Lots of people misunderstand Franklin and butcher paper.  He is clear in his book.  Only use paper when using PRIME brisket as he does, otherwise use foil.  But you are spot on, he wraps AFTER the stall to keep preserve bark and nothing to do with retaining moisture etc.  Main takeaways from Mix and Franklin is brisket grade is critical to success and from my continuous research into brisket that rings true here.  Guys posting prime and wagyu are happy but anytime a poster does not mention grade (obvious mistake) it is a fail usually.


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## dr k (Aug 22, 2018)

zwiller said:


> I am on Team 275F now.  Most of my books are 275F too, Franklin, Mixon, etc.  I never eat off my smoker and for ribs, that means saucing and searing on the grill the next day or so.  Done right, the bark should get even crunchier at places while other places the sauce is nice and gooey (tech term).  Lots of people misunderstand Franklin and butcher paper.  He is clear in his book.  Only use paper when using PRIME brisket as he does, otherwise use foil.  But you are spot on, he wraps AFTER the stall to keep preserve bark and nothing to do with retaining moisture etc.  Main takeaways from Mix and Franklin is brisket grade is critical to success and from my continuous research into brisket that rings true here.  Guys posting prime and wagyu are happy but anytime a poster does not mention grade (obvious mistake) it is a fail usually.


Occasionally I go to Costco with the Ms. and find myself scoping out the prime brisket packers at $3.00/lb.  The trimmed prime flats were so great looking I had to take a pic to promise myself that would be the place I'll be getting brisket.  The trimmed ones are too expensive but look great. Sam's choice packer is $5.00/lb. Or so and Kroger is a little higher in my area.  Next time at Costco I believe a packer will be in the cart.


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## zwiller (Aug 22, 2018)

NICE!  You get it...  Same about trimming.  Franklin trims the heck outta his.  There's like 3-4 pages of pics of his trimming.  Book is must have for the brisket lover.  I am a wannabe...  LOL.  Never had any brisket that rocked my world but that was the same about PP.  After learning so much here, my PP insanely good and I am brutally critical of my cooking.  I plan on taking one for the team and trying CAB from GFS around $3.50 last I saw.  Probably will inject with phosphate but I am also considering injecting tallow or larding as they call it.


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## daricksta (Aug 22, 2018)

What did I miss? What's Team 275? A group of smokers who only smoke at 275°F?


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## daricksta (Aug 22, 2018)

dr k
, I bought the Costco packer once--so far. I highly recommend it!


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## dr k (Aug 22, 2018)

daricksta said:


> What did I miss? What's Team 275? A group of smokers who only smoke at 275°F?


Starting the first post I just put up two bullet points:  set Mes to 275, no wrap.  I see now it's too vague.  It's an Mes term from a Masterbuilt electric smoker page on FB.  No wrap was to imply not wrapping only tougher slabs/cuts that you ordinarily wrap and smoke only those cuts at 275 naked the whole time (ribs, butts, brisket.)


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## Bearcarver (Aug 22, 2018)

dr k said:


> Right, that was in post #12 regarding meats that get tender over 190*.  The Team 275 is for meat that gets tender above 190* IT so there's plenty of time in the smoke.  As long as I set a temp that I know will give me the time for at least a row of pellet smoke onto the food before the pull IT.  That's why I don't do reverse sear steaks much in the smoker unless it's a mini roast because by the time TBS starts enhancing the steak it's time to sear per IT.  I would do the Thermoworks reverse sear recipe which is the lowest temp RS recipe I've seen at 160-170* till IT 100* or what you want then sear or simpler yet, I'll just cold smoke with the Amnts in the grill and have it finished in two hours.  Yup, If it's not what you put in parenthesis, then I'm hot smoking somewhere in between 150*-250*.




Ooops---OK, I agree with Post #12.
Didn't see that one.

Bear


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## daricksta (Aug 22, 2018)

Kurt, I don't have the thing for my 22.5" Weber kettle grill like you do, but you've convinced me to give 275° a try with my next hot smoke. It's just that I've been so indoctrinated by all the smoking books I own that set the temps between 200-250°.  I still keep the water bowl underneath the 4th rack on my MES 30 for both hot and cold smokes. When using the AMNS for cold smokes, Bear's suggestion to remove the drip pan so it would fit on the bottom worked! 

So, we'll see if I become a member of Team 275 with my next hot smoke. Unfortunately my next smoke will be a low temp smoke for making my next batch of teriyaki beef jerky. After that I'll tackle bb ribs or a brisket and afterwards I'll report if I've joined the team.


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## daricksta (Aug 22, 2018)

dr k
, I found your first post. I'm going to test out 275, but I've been doing naked smokes for awhile now. I really don't think wraps are needed. That being said, if I go through with a brisket throwdown that my nephew has challenged me to I'm breaking out the butcher paper when the brisket hits the stall.


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