# Salty Salmon



## bryce (Aug 15, 2012)

Smoked some more salmon last night and somehow i over did it on the salt. It's not inedible but its sure salty, particularly the thin pieces.....yuck! I've read a lot about accidental over-salts but this is my first time. What a frickin bummer.


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## smokinhusker (Aug 16, 2012)

That stinks!


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## daveomak (Aug 16, 2012)

Bryce, morning.....  I have found weighing salt gives repeatable results on all cuts of meat.....  Generally, 8-12 grams per pound works well, depending on the cut.... For salmon, 8 grams/# distributing less to the thinner parts works well..  kind of a pain to weigh but worth it when you consider inedible meat....    Dave


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## big lew bbq (Aug 16, 2012)

I agree with DaveOmak, I have always weighed out my salt for brining.  

Big Lew BBQ


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## bryce (Aug 16, 2012)

Yeah what a bummer. I just took a bunch of it and made some salmon spread an hour ago.

Anyhow, i think i'll have to go with the weighing method. I'm just not going to risk this again.

Thanks for the tip!


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## pipesdaddy (Sep 6, 2012)

Definitely good idea , a new kind of idea of salmon cooking , i want to test this..


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## akhap (Sep 6, 2012)

In my experience and opinion extended brining time greatly raises the risk of over-salted fish.  There is no benefit to brining more than 90 minutes and lots of risk. Dry brining, especially with fish that has not been frozen, can create problems with uneven salting, but if limited to 90 minutes you will not oversalt it. 

After brining the fish should be rinsed in cold water, very quickly.  Do not allow fish waiting to be rinsed to sit in the rinse water.
art


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 11, 2012)

In order to have brine that will cure your salmon while infusing a good flavor there has to be a “balance” between the salt and sugar.  For example a recipe that calls for 1 cup salt (10.2oz.) and 2 cups sugar in one gallon of water (39% sal.) will taste salty compared to one that calls for 2 cups of salt and 8 cups of sugar (80% sal.), brining times being the same. 

   It's the ratio of salt to sugar that will make your brine seem salty. Once that balance has been achieved, you cannot change one without changing the other. I want my fish to take on the flavor of the brine. If the brine tastes salty before the fish is added, guess what.  Believe me a lot of expensive salmon has found its way to the trash can discovering this.

The following should help.  Take note of the brine strengths and temperatures.

Salmon - Smoking fish at home Safely - wsu.edu-

In the following recipe you will notice that I brine for 16 to 20 hours.  I brine for a long period in order to insure 100% brine saturation for the following reasons. One is to insure complete saturation for preservation purposes, of course it insures equal flavor throughout the thicker cuts as well as the thin ones also.  Another is convenience, as I can thaw and brine one day and the next air dry to form pellicle and smoke. This way it doesn't take a whole day to do fish. 

I hope this helps clarify some of the confusion. Let me know.

Mr. T’s “Smoked Salmon from Go to Show”

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...almon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view/20#post_835384


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## akhap (Sep 11, 2012)

Mr T 59874 said:


> [SIZE=12pt] In order to have brine that will cure your salmon while infusing a good flavor there has to be a “balance” between the salt and sugar.  For example a recipe that calls for 1 cup salt (10.2oz.) and 2 cups sugar in one gallon of water (39% sal.) will taste salty compared to one that calls for 2 cups of salt and 8 cups of sugar (80% sal.), brining times being the same. [/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]  It's the ratio of salt to sugar that will make your brine seem salty. Once that balance has been achieved, you cannot change one without changing the other. I want my fish to take on the flavor of the brine. If the brine tastes salty before the fish is added, guess what.  Believe me a lot of expensive salmon has found its way to the trash can discovering this.[/SIZE]
> 
> ...



I respectfully submit the WSU link is seriously flawed and outdated... Their description of the pellicle formation is incorrect and seriously inhibits the ability to get the best possible product.  The cooking process and temperature description shows a failure to understand the issue and leads to a grilled salmon type product rather than a true kippering.  Their description of salt as a curing agent is incorrect... And there is more...

However they do point out the falacy of extended brining times...
art


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 14, 2012)

AKhap said:


> I respectfully submit the WSU link is seriously flawed and outdated... Their description of the pellicle formation is incorrect and seriously inhibits the ability to get the best possible product. The cooking process and temperature description shows a failure to understand the issue and leads to a grilled salmon type product rather than a true kippering for longer term preservation. Their description of salt as a curing agent is incorrect... And there is more...
> However they do point out the falacy of extended brining times...
> art


Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.

Thanks


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## dls1 (Sep 14, 2012)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.
> 
> Thanks


I'd be interested in seeing the flaws also.

Having read both Mr T's and AK hap's threads on the subject of smoking salmon, I find it interesting that 2 individuals, who are making the same item, use a process/recipe that, with the exception of approximately the same finish temp, differ quite a bit yet end up with a finished product that both like and enjoy. Could be just a matter of regional practice and/or personal preferences where there are no rights or wrongs.

A few things caught my attention. Mr. T cited smoker temp and the PH/Salinity levels of his brine. I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing that info in AKhaps thread. Mr. T did provide some documentation from WSU, and while I don't have the expertise to pass judgement on it, AKhaps hasn't provided any documentation to refute it. Finally, there's the subject of salt. Both provided volumes, but only Mr. T provided weight. As there can be a significant difference in the weights of the same volume of certain salts, I'd be interested in knowing what types and brands each individual used.


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## bigfish98 (Sep 14, 2012)

OK I want to hear from both experts on not only what dls1 said above, but a local store here has Keta Salmon on sale.  I have done some reasearch and I see that it is leaner than other types.  Is there any difference in smoking?  Or is this fish not recommended?  Whats the deal?


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## dls1 (Sep 14, 2012)

bigfish98 said:


> OK I want to hear from both experts on not only what dls1 said above, but a local store here has Keta Salmon on sale.  I have done some reasearch and I see that it is leaner than other types.  Is there any difference in smoking?  Or is this fish not recommended?  Whats the deal?


Keta salmon, aka Chum, Dog, or Silverbrite salmon, is fine. While it's not as flavorful as King or Sockeye it's still a good fish, and a big improvement over farmed Atlantic salmon. If the price is right, go for it.


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## daveomak (Sep 14, 2012)

dls1 said:


> Keta salmon, aka Chum, Dog, or Silverbrite salmon, is fine. While it's not as flavorful as King or Sockeye it's still a good fish, and a big improvement over farmed Atlantic salmon. If the price is right, go for it.


What dls1 said....   especially about the farmed fish....  

I have smoked many Chums and I also can them for sandwiches etc....   They spawn in the lower sections of rivers, and therefore do not have the fat layer, (food storage) for those long trips up river that other salmon have.. I think their diet consists of a variety of food while in the oceans including shrimp and some plankton due to the smaller teeth when still ocean feeding...  When they mature, they have some huge teeth.. AKA Dog salmon nickname...  I find their flavor milder than other species but they still have the omega health benefits... When on a budget, they are my "go to" protein from the ocean.... When ocean caught before they "water mark".. "Stripes" on the skin... They are very good...  We caught many in SE Alaska and they brought a very fair price.....   Dave

PS... They are an absolute blast to catch on a fly rod, in the fall, in the rivers.. They are a really powerful fish and give a great fight...  a shrimp pattern works well.....


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 14, 2012)

bigfish98, Please do not confuse me with an expert as I don’t claim to be one.  I simply try to share what I have learned over almost 50 years of smoking foods so others might pick something up here and there.

I try to encourage others to experiment with different techniques and recipes and learn from the mistakes of others (like myself) to come up with their own.

I am not at all familiar with the Keta Salmon, but I don’t know of any fish that would not benefit from spending some time in the smoker.   It’s my opinion that if it’s on sale, it would be a good time to experiment just in case it doesn’t turn out the way you would like.  Take good notes so you can make adjustments to fit your taste in future smokes.

dsl1, the salts I normally use in brining are Morton Canning and Pickling Salt because of its ability to dissolve easily in cold water or Morton Kosher Salt.  Actually any salt can be used as long as it is non -iodized.  Some prefer sea salt as it has different minerals in it depending on the region it comes from.


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## akhap (Sep 14, 2012)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.
> 
> Thanks



Let's start with the ridiculous:  In the opening paragraph they fall back on the old canard about safety and use Botulism as the demon.  I guess if you are looking for mythical adversaries you may as well start with a worthy one.  There is virtually no chance of smoked salmon causing Botulism as long as it has not been improperly canned or otherwise mishandled after smoking... to start it needs an anaerobic environment, the exact opposite of what salmon goes through.

They fall back on the old requirements for ground meat and such when they suggest 150F internally is required.  I submit that anyone that tries the difference between identical pieces of fish brought to 150 versus 140 would see the difference instantly.  At 150 it is not ruined, but it has been compromised significantly.  This is mostly because the fat within the flesh has started to denature.  This creates a "grainy" texture and greatly reduces the feel of moisture (it is liquid fat that has been lost, not water) and has a mouth feel many find cloying.

There is a ton more, but I just got a call and need to give a buddy a hand for the balance of the morning.  I will try to add significantly more soon.

As a teaser, anyone that believes measuring salt to the nearest grain matters, please calculate the salt absorption rate of salmon at 35F, 45F, and 55F in a hypertonic solution at 40F for 90 minutes and adjust for every piece


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## daveomak (Sep 14, 2012)

To everyone interested in smoking fish, I found this loooong explanation about smoking fish which has some very interesting points to consider and explanations of what goes on during the smoking and brining process....  I was initially looking for "salt absorption rate and different temps" because I thought that was an interesting subject....   

AKhap has obviously experimented, with brining techniques, and perfected it over a long period of time.... I read his thread on Kippering salmon and agree with what he has done...  I personally follow his techniques and the finished product is awesome...  

However, I have found that "time sensitive" brining is not something that works for me and I use the weighed salt / pound of fish as a good guide... For me, it is not time and temp sensitive and provides a quality product with a consistent salt concentration... 

I am not disagreeing with anyone's methods... Once you find a smoked fish you are in love with, the search ends....  If you are still looking, AKhap's methods are something you should consider.... especially when it comes to the fat rendering from the flesh and changing the texture of the meat.....   I'm sure, as an example, we have all had Prime Rib at a restaurant at one point in our lives that had a "sawdust" texture to it....    Dave


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 14, 2012)

Dave,  Interesting discussion, we probably should have started another thread.

After receiving my HAACP certificate a couple years ago, I thought I would apply it to my smoked fish just for practice.  Ironically I used the Sea Grant pub you posted along with the following as an aid.  One of the CCP's (critical control point) was a minimum salinity of 60% for safely smoking fish.  I just completed a test using AKhap's brine recipe.  The results were a salinity of 28%.

Maybe you will find the following interesting also.

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/i97001.html

There seems to be a thought that the longer brine times and higher internal temps will produce a "sawdust" texture.  I have yet to experience that.  Rather the fish is moist and quite pleasant.

Tom


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## akhap (Sep 14, 2012)

Mr T 59874 said:


> There seems to be a thought that the longer brine times and higher internal temps will produce a "sawdust" texture.  I have yet to experience that.  Rather the fish is moist and quite pleasant.
> 
> Tom



Sawdust is not the right word...  But once you have tried fish that has no white oozing fat and never exceeded 140F I guarantee you will understand.  I have had too many folks see the difference to believe you would be the first to not taste it.  
respectfully,
art


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## akhap (Sep 14, 2012)

Dave
If I had settled for "good enough" decades ago I would have fallen far short of really good.  One thing about smoked salmon is it will tolerate some abuse and remain edible! :yahoo:

Fortunately I have had a few talented folks help me and I have had a tremendous amount of fish available to work with for many years.
art


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## akhap (Sep 14, 2012)

Okay, back to the linked wsu paper flaws...  But first, they are correct in pointing out that enough salt can infiltrate fish in very reasonable times... like 30 minutes... but fail to point out that salt will migrate throughout the fish while the pellicle forms.  The equalization will be slow, but continue throughout the entire process.

They suggest a pellicle can be formed by putting the fish in the smoker at 80-90F...  I have made that mistake before...  How they go from suggesting the fish be placed in a cool dry spot to sticking them in a smoker with heat on is completely beyond me!  How about putting the fish in the smoker with NO heat and a fan?  Too-rapid drying will produce a hard pellicle with a very wet center which leads to bad things in the smoker when it heats up.

They do a great job of graphing the temperatures, both cook and internal, but fail to understand what happens at various points.  And they even suggest fish needs to go internally to 160F!  Yet it is good sushi after freezing and has the drying benefit of salt...  It is ridiculous.

They also make the point smoke is not an effective preservative under most conditions... but do not mention it is in the conditions involving smoked salmon.  Between the salt, drying, and the smoke it adds up to fairly good conditions for keeping smoked salmon safely.

They claim little quality is lost in frozen smoked fish because it is so dry...  I have found exactly the opposite to be true.  I smoke smaller batches of salmon and far prefer salmon straight out of the smoker.  

Then there is the crowning jewel "Although regulations for commercial fish smokers may permit a minimum internal fish temperature lower than 160°F for the 30 minutes of cooking, home smokers don’t have the continuous time—temperature recording equipment necessary to ensure proper cooking. Therefore, it is important to maintain these standards."  In other words, just to be sure you are safe enough they suggest you ruin your fish...  

So those would be my complaints about the paper... it is sadly typical.
art


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## daveomak (Sep 15, 2012)

Art, evening....  Fortunately (or unfortunately in some folks cases) Institutions are there to safely guide all folks through the process of making foods safe to eat... On this Forum, that is our primary goal...  food safety.....   some folks don't have the "complete" understanding of the FSIS, HAACP, USDA, FDA and Federal and State papers on food preparation, processing and food safety etc....

Personal preference is understood and not looked down upon, by us at the forum...  some like pepper, some don't.... the food is still very good...  some folks haven't had the opportunity to form a pellicle on a salmon 500 times until they perfected it....  some have never had fresh salmon... some have never had ocean bright king or sockeye.... I have never had heritage/heirloom pork... only store bought big industry raised pig... nobody is on me for not eating "real pig"....   You are very fortunate to live in the great state of Alaska and have access to moose, caribou, sockeye, chum, pink, coho and king right at your door....  Our members do the best they can when they arrive at this forum and it is our personal commitment, and that of the members, to help them improve in the areas that interest them...  Whether it be curing, smoking, gardening, bread making it doesn't matter....  

So, back to the point.... We at SMF rely on the feds for guidelines everyone can follow to make safe food.  You don't have to follow the guidelines... that is your choice...  on this forum, discussions follow accepted food safe practices.... we cannot, in good faith, condone practices that are deemed unsafe by the alphabet agencies..... 

By the way, as I said in a previous post... I kipper my fish pretty much exactly using your method.... have for years.....  I guess the two of us make the best kippered salmon in the world... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  ....    Dave


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## akhap (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave
Believe me, I understand the whole concept of satisfying the alphabets, but there has to be a limit... The simple fact they condone ground meat jerky while claiming to emphasize safety is laughable.  But the real issue is how far they have to get over the line before things are "safe enough."

Assuming you have been following my directions for years, you must make very good fish! ;)

BTW, this is not one trick pony  or even a one trick pony... I do lots of birds, domestic and wild; venison in lots of flavors like moose, caribou, sheep, mt goat, bear, and deer almost every year; as well as seafood and lots of fish other than salmon. 
thanks
art


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## akhap (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave 
One issue that I failed to make that bears noting above all others... The various agencies producing these "papers" get to pick their own ideas of the correct parameters and often go so far over into the ridiculous to be certain they are safe that it ruins the whole piece of information.  In this case the paper has gone beyond any other I recall in temperature absurdities while failing to make a single positive point for better smoked fish.  They have proven they lack the real background to produce this advice in the first place.

Next week I will make a call to the folks at the fisheries center in Kodiak and get their phone number to post.  They have some very sharp folks and they do a lot of cool research in the fish sciences and the focus is quality food...
art


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 15, 2012)

Bryce, are you confused yet?  The question is what your personal preferences are.

In an effort clear the air.  While I use more than one recipe for salmon, the one that I posted was from a food process and marketing perspective.  The challenge to me was to develop a recipe that would produce a good well accepted product while meeting the minimal FDA and USDA requirements.  If I were asked buy the fed inspectors who were looking at my HACCP plan why the minimum requirements of salinity, heat and time were not met, I don’t think they would accept the fact that someone on a cooking forum said that salmon shouldn’t go over 140 °.  

Salmon can be prepared from raw as in sushi to dried jerky with baked, grilled and smoked in-between.   In my opinion with so many ways to prepare it, other than personal preferences, no one should say what is best for all.

Unlike the fortunate ones, some of us don’t have the access to really fresh salmon although your fish monger may tell you it’s fresh.  Salmon flesh is very fragile and if not handled properly can break or start to pull apart.  This causes areas where the ability to form a proper pellicle can be difficult thus allowing the internal fat to come to the surface when cooking.  With a good pellicle on salmon with no tares, l have been able to take it to above 160° for customers who prefer a dryer salmon without fat coming to the surface.

As for the comments on the publication from the universities of Washington, Oregon and Idaho, I have yet to see any credible documentation to back any claims that they are wrong.

To sum things up, at least for me.  It is comforting knowing that the product that I prepare for others is both safe and to their liking.

Bryce, I hope that somewhere in all the post made in your thread has helped you in some way.  If you like, feel free to PM me.

 Tom


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## akhap (Sep 15, 2012)

Okay... I thought you had looked at the USDA suggested temperatures...

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct10/safe1010.htm

Here is the first paper to catch my eye when I Googled "salmon smoking USDA" and here is the first line in their hot smoking description;

"Hot-smoking, a lesser-used option for salmon, uses temperatures of about 140˚F and takes about 6 to 10 hours. Hot-smoking cooks the fish, giving it a different taste and texture than cold-smoked fish."

They are suggesting salmon is commonly smoked at about 140F...  That is not the same as cooking to an internal temp of 140...

Now realize they are also saying cold smoking is more common (it isn't commercially so in AK, but is in outlying areas) and okay safety-wise:
"Most processors opt for cold smoking, which uses temperatures of 68˚F to 86˚F to smoke—but not cook—the fillets. Cold-smoking takes about 3 to 4 days."

How is it that 140 is unsafe?  

When competitions are held here I guarantee you the judges will barely look at fish with "curds" as some call the ooze...  It will rate an automatic shoulder shrug and litle more.

Taking salmon to 160 with a good pellicle will keep the fat inside mostly, but it will not help the damage done to the flesh by overcooking.

BTW the broken flesh damage done to salmon is from mishanding while the fish is in rigor.  Straightening a crooked fish to fillet it for example will break the fish badly, which is why fish is allowed to go into and out of rigor before they are filleted in commercial operations.  I prefer to have my fish in the freezer before then.  Freezing fish while in hard rigor will stop the activity and break-down of rigor and may lead to flesh damage, too.  The fish will not be relaxed and will break when handled after thawing.
art


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## daveomak (Sep 15, 2012)

Art, I can't find where "cold smoking salmon" passes food inspectors criteria for "safe for the general public and retail sales"...

I did find, in the article you linked to, where there are pathogens that can live in cold smoked products, and food scientists are trying to develop a technique for "safe to eat" salmon and other fishes to "acceptably kill all harmful stuff"...

You are 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   when it comes to recommending food practices, that are not acceptable to the food industry alphabet agencies, on this forum....   

You and I and those that totally understand food borne illness and the consequences of consuming food that has not been prepared according to "safe food handling practices" can do so at their own risk....  

I, for one, will not take the responsibility of someone's child dying from consuming prepared foods that contained listeria or other pathogens that were not properly treated for in the curing or cooking process...  

Please take the time to try and understand our position and our goals to educate the general public on preparing "food that is safe for themselves, their family and friends"..   

An excerpt from the article AKhap linked....

Popular fish like salmon, catfish, and tilapia are coming under the close scrutiny of Agricultural Research Service  food-safety scientists Andy Hwang and Kathleen Rajkowski. They’re discovering more about how to prevent foodborne pathogens from contaminating these and other delicious, good-for-you seafood. Both scientists are based at the ARS Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania.

Hwang, a food technologist, has completed a series of studies in which he’s simulated—in his laboratory—commercial processes used today for preparing smoked salmon. A gourmet treat, smoked salmon is typically sold in vacuum packages that have a refrigerator shelf life of about 3 to 8 weeks, according to Hwang. *Trouble is, pathogenic microbes like Listeria monocytogenes  can live at refrigerated temperatures, so it’s important to get rid of these harmful microbes before the product leaves the processing plant.*

Smoked salmon, pricey and, when properly prepared, delicate in texture, is often served in thin slices with bagels and cream cheese or as an appetizer, stacked on toast-type crackers with red onion and a splash of lemon juice. Too, some sushi bars feature smoked salmon surrounded by sticky rice and snugly wrapped in seaweed.

*Hwang is looking for ways that processors can protect the pleasing flavor and texture of smoked salmon while reducing or eliminating contamination by L. monocytogenes  or other foodborne pathogens.*

*At the Smokehouse*


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## diggingdogfarm (Sep 15, 2012)

Here you go, the Processing Parameters for Pathogen Control in Cold-Smoked Fish as far as the FDA is concerned.......

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/ResearchAreas/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm092182.htm


~Martin


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## akhap (Sep 15, 2012)

DaveOmak said:


> Art, I can't find where "cold smoking salmon" passes food inspectors criteria for "safe for the general public and retail sales"...
> 
> I did find, in the article you linked to, where there are pathogens that can live in cold smoked products, and food scientists are trying to develop a technique for "safe to eat" salmon and other fishes to "acceptably kill all harmful stuff"...
> 
> ...




Dave
Somebody better tell the commercial cold smokers they cannot do what they have been doing for decades with Alphabet approval... They do not even list a minimum temperature for cold smoked fish.
art


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## akhap (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave
The big problem here is multiple entities putting out inconsistent information... and a lot of it is just ridiculous.  USDA Guidelines are understandable as sources, but a WSU paper put out by an obvious  non-player is not the place to look for solid information.

I have not found the USDA standards for salmon hot smoking temperatures and do not have time to look for it right now.  IIRC they are only 130F at 3.8 was.  But that could be subject to change or has been changed already.

Have to run my wife is patiently waiting for me to go try to find a moose for her to shoot.  It is getting mighty breezey and we have a forecast for 110 mph winds tonight.
art

As I have said before, if it was anywhere else they would name these storms...


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## daveomak (Sep 15, 2012)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Here you go, the Processing Parameters for Pathogen Control in Cold-Smoked Fish as far as the FDA is concerned.......
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/ResearchAreas/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm092182.htm
> 
> ...


Martin, Thanks..... A member from Nove Scotia was looking for Canadian regs on cold smoking fish about 1-2 weeks ago.... I could not find Canadian regs either...    

I have skimmed all the pages and I will reread points of interest someday.... I find it interesting that there are many bacteria etc. present in fish and the limited effect salt, nitrite, etc has on them.... temp seems to be the best method.... although some organisms are  fairly well controlled by smoking..  botulina something or another is one of them due to its anerobic qualities....    

Talk at you later...   Dave


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, I cold smoke salmon but only when preparing it for canning.  It is smoked for a shorter amount of time due to the fact that canning intensifies the smoke flavor.  As the temperature is taken to over 240 degrees in a pressure canner or retort, all concern of C - Bot is eliminated when properly sealed.

 Canning salmon could be another interesting thread.

Tom


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## daveomak (Sep 16, 2012)

*  It is smoked for a shorter amount of time due to the fact that canning intensifies the smoke flavor.*

Mr T, morning.... You are definitely correct on canning intensifying the smoke...  My first attempt at canning fish, I couldn't eat the canned stuff...  Very steep learning curve on canning smoked products....   Dave


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## roddy (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm new to smoking but did a couple of pieces of salmon the other week. I overbrined. Not alot but enough. I did find when I mixed it with cream cheese and mayo and mixed well it made a great topping on a toasted bagel with no high salt flavor.


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