# Pork Shoulder, Fail?



## benjaminkramer (Jun 22, 2014)

Tried a Pork Shoulder for the first time yesterday, Saturday. 7.2 lbs, put into the preheated MES 30 at 10AM at 225° using Pecan wood, set it directly on the grate. Planned accordingly to follow Jeff's Pork Shoulder Recipe (http://www.smoking-meat.com/pork-shoulder-recipe). So I buckled up and then my nerves took over and I obsessivly tried to find every bit of information about the Stall as possible. My fear of the stall is multi-faceted. Being a pilot, a piss poor flight instructor once explained an aerodynamic stall so far from reality, I've never been able to get the word out of my head...but, I digresss. 

2PM - 4 Hours into my project - IT is 140°, life is good. 

4PM - 6 Hours into my project - IT is 140°, life is slowly more questionable. Am I the start, middle, or end of this stall issue? Better, yet, is this the stall? 

7PM - 9 Hours into my project - IT is 155°, life is a great big carousel of progress. 

9PM - 11 Hours into my project - IT is 165°, hmm....

9:45PM - 11 Hours, 45 Min into my project - IT is 165°. 

I gave up. I finished it in the oven. If going by 1.5 hrs, this cut mathematically should've taken 10hrs, 48 minutes. I hate math, I subscribe to the when it's done, it's done approach. I was waiting for the temp to rise, patiently, I waited, but, as you can see I failed. 

For the past few years, prior to buying the smoker, we were making delicious, wonderful pork shoulders in the slow cooker. Was so excited for the smoker, and still am...it's a reason to try another one and tweak how I work it. My questions though...

1) The times and temps described above, I was definitely stalled, right?

2) Between  9 and 9:45, was I too eager expecting to see a temp rise? 

3) I didn't want to foil, based on info obtained at amazingribs.com, figuring this was my first one. I'm still up in the air about this one though. Was this a rookie mistake? 

Thankfully, the final product was still positive, but, I'm just a little disappointed I let it get the best of me and I ran to the oven with my tail between my legs. The bark was great, the meat tasted amazing and overall was satisfactory. 

Before and after: 













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__ benjaminkramer
__ Jun 22, 2014


















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__ benjaminkramer
__ Jun 22, 2014


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## mopardog (Jun 22, 2014)

Finishing in the oven is not a failure, I have done so many pork buts that I have it down to an 8 hr process every time. 4 hrs on the smoke at 250, then into a pan covered with plastic wrap and 2 layers of heavy duty foil in the oven or smoker until 195-200 internal temp, depending on tenderness. This usually takes an additional 4 hrs, let it rest for 2hrs and you're good to go (so I guess a ten hr process). The Texas crutch is a tool, I dont use it for ribs but for big pieces of meat, it just makes sense to save all that time, that being said, I used to stay up all night smoking meat monitoring temps making adjustments until I realized it isn't that hard. This took me years. Good luck and never give up!


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## geerock (Jun 22, 2014)

First of all, I suspect you may have been cooking at a much less temp than you thought.  The MES units are known to be off by quite a bit and many times the read higher (sometimes 30 - 40 degrees) than actual chamber temp.
Secondly, there is no loss of flavor or tenderness by cooking pork shoulder, butt, picnic, roast, whatever, at a higher temp.  250 to 275 works just as well, drives you thru any stall much faster, and gets you eating quicker.  Try it sometime....


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## greg1 (Jun 22, 2014)

I am cooking my first shoulder today for pulled pork for my wife's co-workers.  I also have a mes 30 Ben and did a lot research to see what I could find and everyone has a plan that works for them.  So here is what I decided I am going to do.  Put smoke on for 4hrs @ 250 degrees with the amazin pellet smoker, when I pull the smoke if temp is 160 I am going to place in aluminum pans and cook another 2 hrs and see where we are at if still in the stall I will wrap and back into the smoker till we hit 205 and then rest and pull.  I don't know if this is a good plan will let you know later but it made me feel a little better knowing I had a plan in place.


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## demosthenes9 (Jun 22, 2014)

geerock said:


> First of all, I suspect you may have been cooking at a much less temp than you thought. The MES units are known to be off by quite a bit and many times the read higher (sometimes 30 - 40 degrees) than actual chamber temp.
> Secondly, there is no loss of flavor or tenderness by cooking pork shoulder, butt, picnic, roast, whatever, at a higher temp. 250 to 275 works just as well, drives you thru any stall much faster, and gets you eating quicker. Try it sometime....


+27!!


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## hambone1950 (Jun 22, 2014)

The above are all good advice. You did fine as it sounds like the meat was good and that's the object. You will get better as you go along. Keep smoking and have a good time.


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## geerock (Jun 22, 2014)

Greg1 said:


> I am cooking my first shoulder today for pulled pork for my wife's co-workers.  I also have a mes 30 Ben and did a lot research to see what I could find and everyone has a plan that works for them.  So here is what I decided I am going to do.  Put smoke on for 4hrs @ 250 degrees with the amazin pellet smoker, when I pull the smoke if temp is 160 I am going to place in aluminum pans and cook another 2 hrs and see where we are at if still in the stall I will wrap and back into the smoker till we hit 205 and then rest and pull.  I don't know if this is a good plan will let you know later but it made me feel a little better knowing I had a plan in place.


Greg
Have you ever verified your cooking temps with a second ACCURATE therm?  Its a good idea with the mes smokers.  A maverick et series remote therm is a great tool to have for any type of smoker or griller....but especially for the masterbuilts.  Your plan is good....the only thing that can throw it off is if you are starting with bad info.  Like thinking you are cooking at a temp that is way off.  Best of luck.


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## greg1 (Jun 22, 2014)

Gee rock
I have another therm. In the mes I have to run the setting on the mes 20 degrees warmer to achieve the 250 degree mark.  So glad we have this forum where we can all share ideas and experiences to make the best and safest product possible.  Just another benefit in living in the U.S.A.


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## wes w (Jun 26, 2014)

Your smoke looks awesome.  

I smoke with wood.  I start at 250.  I do wrap at 160IT.  I can smoke 60lbs of butts in 10 hrs every time.   If time is an issue, I have ran the temp up to 300.  Its just as good or better then the long 20hr smoked ones.  I'm not a fan of bark.  Most of the time, I'm smoking to a time limit.  Unless its a family outing, I'll have people coming to pick up BBQ at a set time.  It has to be rested, pulled, tray ed and ready.  

If you don't like the long smoke.  Wrap at 160 then open the foil up at 190 and let it go to 200 open.   DO NOT SPILL THE JUICE ON YOU THAT IS IN THE FOIL.  IT WILL SCALD YOU!!  I have poured it down my front side before.  Its not fun and it hurts like hell!

As they say, practice makes perfect!   

If you haven't, get Jeff's rub recipe.   People in these parts keep asking why my BBQ is so much better then the restaurant stuff they call BBQ.    My reply,  "If I told you I'd have to kill you"  :-)  I add a little to it to make it even better, but its an awesome start.


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## venture (Jun 26, 2014)

Obviously, you need to know the actual temps in the pit rather than relying on a stock therm.

After that time in the smoke?  How much smoke flavor do you want?  That would have been plenty of smoke time in our house. No sin in finishing in the oven when your meat has enough smoke already.  Just don't let some of the judgmental folks know you did that?

Every piece of the same cut will have a personality of its own, and it can drive you nuts.

1 1/2 hour per LB is just a rough estimate, and I have had them take longer.

My butts are usually in the 5 LB range, and my stall usually starts at about 160 to 165.  They come out of the stall whenever they feel the hell like doing so?

You are on your way!  Keep at it!  Don't let anything discourage you!

Good luck and good smoking.


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## smokerguy (Jun 27, 2014)

You were on the right track. Temp of the MES 30 set to 225 degrees. Water pan full of water.  The the roast  will get to 165 degrees IT, in about 8 1/2 hours. Remove it from the smoker, wrap it in foil and place it back in the smoker, without smoke. The temp will rise faster and typically the roast has had enough smoke at that point. My 7 pound Costco shoulders take about 13 hours to reach the 205 degrees IT, in my MES 30, with a MES cold smoke generator. Normally it is too late at night to pull the shoulder, so I wrap it in a towel and place it in a Styrofoam cooler overnight. The next morning it is still hot enough to pull.

I have monitored the temperature of my MES 30 with my remote thermometer and the IT stays very close to the set point. You have a great unit and it will produce great smoked BBQ. Just don't plan on having the butt for dinner the same evening.


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## geerock (Jun 27, 2014)

Wes W said:


> Your smoke looks awesome.
> 
> I smoke with wood.  I start at 250.  I do wrap at 160IT.  I can smoke 60lbs of butts in 10 hrs every time.   If time is an issue, I have ran the temp up to 300.  Its just as good or better then the long 20hr smoked ones.  I'm not a fan of bark.  Most of the time, I'm smoking to a time limit.  Unless its a family outing, I'll have people coming to pick up BBQ at a set time.  It has to be rested, pulled, tray ed and ready.
> 
> ...


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## wes w (Jun 27, 2014)

LOL Gee   Trust me it wasn't pretty.  I got one shelf under the cross bar of the doors.  Its bad to tear the foil even double wrapped.  A few choice words were spoken.... :-)  On the lighter side, I didn't drop the meat.  :-)

Thanks for the kind words.  It just seems I don't have much to say anymore.   I keep up with my build thread but post very little elsewhere.    I mainly just use the search bar if I have questions.   Just wanted to share the "scalding"  warning.  Of course, most smokers are a lot lower then mine too.

Hope everyone has a good day.


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## venture (Jun 27, 2014)

Wish I never had a scalding story?

But I would be telling a big lie.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## dd mau (Jul 2, 2014)

HI Greg1,

the pan idea is a good one ,try covering the pork with foil after your initial 3hrs.I use a remote probe to monitor at this point and keep [email protected] till the temp reads 200 degrees,I then do a mop multiple times with heat vents closed while pork is "resting". Lets DD


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## jbinfla (Jul 3, 2014)

New guy here but I'd like to reiterate what was said above:  Watch out for the juices!  A few years ago while barefoot grilling I pulled a foil pack with grease off the grill and it spilled on my foot (can rip using tongs!).  Grease doesn't boil at 212° and can be much, MUCH hotter.  Scalded me seriously, deep fried the whole top of my foot and had to visit the doctor when the foot became disgusting and painful.  I'm extra cautious now because of it and it was an easy to make mistake.  I had to go to  work barefoot for a couple weeks because of that.


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## venture (Jul 3, 2014)

Having worked in restaurants, I can tell some burn stories. Fortunately not ALL mine?

Not only is grease hot, but it sticks like glue.

Speaking of glue?  Never spill a pot of roux?  You will definitely pay the price!

Good footwear and good footing are essential.

Once saw a coworker slip and fall forward.  Put is hands out to stop himself.  Hands landed on a hot flattop.  No fun!  (almost as smart as attempting to catch a falling knife?)

Minor burns are part of the job.  Spent years with no hair on my right hand or arm up to the place where the coat covered me. 

Just part of the grill station.

To make it worse?

To cut yourself or to seriously burn yourself are considered signs of poor craftsmanship.

Your coworkers will never let you forget it?  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Good luck and good smoking.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 3, 2014)

The meat looks good. As far as your questions...

1) The times and temps described above, I was definitely stalled, right? *Yep, and there may be more than one. It's important to be patient, but that comes with confidence. And, at 225°F inspite of what people say...1.5 Hours per pound is almost alway wrong. Plan on 2 hours per and add 2 hours to CYA/Rest the meat. I have smoked a lot of Butts and Picnic Shoulders and have yet to have one go faster than 2 hrs/Lb. Yes you can also crank the heat on a Butt to 275°F without effecting the quality of the finished product.*

2) Between  9 and 9:45, was I too eager expecting to see a temp rise? *Yes again, either foil the meat or grab your fav Adult Beverage and relax. A typical Stall is 2 hours.*

3) I didn't want to foil, based on info obtained at amazingribs.com, *(What kind of Hack organization is that? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Just Kidding)*  figuring this was my first one. I'm still up in the air about this one though. Was this a rookie mistake? *  No, foiling helps push through the stall but that is a choice you make. If you have Water in the Pan, your meat will take longer overall and will have an extented stall as well. Lots of energy that can go to cooking the meat is absorbed by the water and the high humidity lengthens the stall. Either, add only a cup or two of water and let it evaporate, the meat should be hitting the stall, or skip the water all together.*

Merv, If you are " Working " in a Pro Kitchen and you don't get Burned...You must be the Exec!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Burns and Cuts are part of the Job. Working Grill, I bet you still have a Forearm full of " Stripes ". When I would interview prospective kitchen help. I listened to their pitch and then asked to see their hands and arms. If no or few Scars, their application went in the Round File 'cause they were lying about their amount of experience and Line time. BTW...No matter how Bad the Burn or how Deep the Cut...If you don't finish the Shift...You're a WUSS!!!

I worked for an Exec at a Country Club that would tell HORRIFIC stories about injuries he had...Daryll, " Yeah I remember the time I had my Leg cut off by a flying blade that snapped off the Meat Saw. I hopped back to my station and slipped. My head went up to my shoulders in the Deep Fryer, for over a minute!. Yeah, (pauses to take a drag of his Cigarette) It was pretty bad...BUT I FINISHED THE SHIFT! "  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I will pass on a secret from a Pro. Get yourself a Tube or Tub of* Silvadene Burn Cream* and keep it in the Refer. I have had some nasty burns, slap on a coating of Silvadene every 6 hours and in 12-24 hours little to no Pain or heat sensativity and in 36-48 hours, all you have is a scab or a scar, almost completely healed. Really good stuff and keeps a long time, I have a 4 yearold tub that is fine. I sent a pint tub to Culinary School with my daughter, she shared with her friends and everyone was amazed how well it worked.It came back nearly empty. It requires a Prescription but most Dr.'s have no issue giving one out  ..JJ


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## wes w (Jul 4, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *Chef JimmyJ*
> 
> * No, foiling helps push through the stall but that is a choice you make. If you have Water in the Pan, your meat will take longer overall and will have an extented stall as well. Lots of energy that can go to cooking the meat is absorbed by the water and the high humidity lengthens the stall. Either, add only a cup or two of water and let it evaporate, the meat should be hitting the stall, or skip the water all together.*


Good morning ,  Hope everyone is fired up for the 4th!

I know my smoker is a little different then most, but  I use the water pan as part of the baffle and the water does have a cooling effect.    At times, if I'm running the smoker full,  (10-14 butts)  My water pan will be simmering or boiling until  the "cold mass" gets warmed up.   Not to go against the  Honorable Chef Jimmy J..... :-)    but isn't steam hotter then dry air?   Just a thought.  With a wood smoker I have energy to spare.   

I hope everyone has a great day!   Please don't forget the men a women who fought for our right to be a free nation.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 4, 2014)

Wes W said:


> Good morning ,  Hope everyone is fired up for the 4th!
> 
> I know my smoker is a little different then most, but  I use the water pan as part of the baffle and the water does have a cooling effect.    At times, if I'm running the smoker full,  (10-14 butts)  My water pan will be simmering or boiling until  the "cold mass" gets warmed up.   Not to go against the  Honorable Chef Jimmy J..... :-)    but isn't steam hotter then dry air?   Just a thought. * With a wood smoker I have energy to spare.  *  *This is the Key to using Water.*
> 
> I hope everyone has a great day!   Please don't forget the men a women who fought for our right to be a free nation.


Howdy Wes, Happy 4th to you. What temp you run that Beauty at? An MES30 running at 225°-250°F with water struggles to get to and maintain temp. The air gets moist but not what I would call steamy and yes steam cooks faster than air, but the MES sits closer to 200-225° instead of cycling hotter. Also, the Evapoative Cooling of the stall takes a long time in the wimpy low temp moist smoke of the MES. So it takes longer to cook a Butt overall. With no water or just a little then letting it evaporate, 2 cups goes dry in about 4 hours just in time for the Stall, the MES gets the job done at around 2 hrs/Lb. The MES Convects hot air well and does great dry, especially getting thru the stall. I have tested my MES with and without water and it takes longer to cook with water. I went to a dry pan and since it worked great, and I use an AMNPS. It is not too happy in a really moist smoker.  If the MES ran higher than 300° and the AMNPS would work in a moist smoker, I would be using water. That is how Myron Mixon does his 325-350° Hot and Fast with Steam. You make a good point, thanks for posting...JJ


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## wes w (Jul 5, 2014)

Ok, I understand.   In my smoker I've never tried to get a butt through the stall.  I always wrap, so I don't have info on how long it would take.  I can be at 160IT in 6hrs and foil.  Another 4-5 and I'm done, pigs resting nice in the cooler. 

With my smoker there are major disadvantages.   I have to stay with it.  I've ran it long enough that I can get away for 30-40min. at a time.   If I'm running full,  I have to rotate.  I usually do this when I wrap.  There is no way to keep it the same temp all the way up. I've tried a lot of different things and it just doesn't happen.  I usually set my remote therm on the 3rd rack.    I start at 250 for butts.   If running full no matter how big a fire it will not come up to temp until the cold mass warms up.   Usually 30-45 min. in my water pan is near boil.  The flames are hitting the bottom of it.    Of course the longer it  goes the less flame you need.  Toward the end, its one stick at a time.  If I start running hot, simply open the doors and cool it down.   Love my smoker, it does produce unmatched flavor, but I can't "set it, and forget it"  

Hope everyone has a good day


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## deedee (Jul 24, 2014)

I am smoking ribs for the family Sat and have done it twice but they were not tender. Can you help?


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## wes w (Jul 24, 2014)

Dee, what method do you go by?   The 3-2-1 works best for me.  3 hours in the smoker at 225.  2 hours foiled.  1 hour uncovered just to give them a nice outside.  In the last hour you can baste them with anything you like.  I use Jeffs rub so I  never feel the need to baste.      To me, foiling is key to tender pork.  It lets it cook in its own juice without drying it out.  Foil it loose.  I'm the worlds worst at poking holes in the foil.  The juice is super hot!  Trust me....

Oh, and beer.  Beer makes and average smoke awesome!  :-)


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## hambone1950 (Jul 25, 2014)

DEEDEE said:


> I am smoking ribs for the family Sat and have done it twice but they were not tender. Can you help?




My first thought is that if the ribs weren't tender they needed to cook longer....were they moist  tough or dry and tough?
Wes is giving you good advice about the 3-2-1 method also. That is a good guide. But ultimately you have to test for tender as you go.


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## dd mau (Jul 25, 2014)

hi d , I have had pretty successful butts with Myron Mixon's strategy. I inject it with a mix of apple juice and Blues Hog Tennesee red sauce.I pour the remainder of the Red Sauce over the Butt and put it into a large Ziploc bag and marinate for 8-12 hrs. Room temp when your ready to smoke it , dump out the marinade and place the Butt in a large aluminum pan,smoke it 3hrs with enough water and apple juice to cover the bottom of the pan, depending on the size of the meat, I then cover the Butt with foil and cook an additional 2-3 hrs covered,temp @ 250 -275 degrees.The internal temp reaches 190-195 I remove the foil cover and mop it heavily with whatever I've got at the time, these procedures have worked for me and the great thing about the pan is very little cleanup!!!!

                                                           Hope you try it !!

                                                                   DD Mau


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## rage (Aug 27, 2014)

I've smoked quite a bit since the last time I posted, I actually try to get in 2-3 smokes a week and have been averaging about that this summer. So I've been smoking Pork Butts, Oven Roast, Meat Logs, Country Styled and Short Ribs, etc.....

I always adhere to the thought that if your looking you ain't cooking.........and I use a side burner smoker modified

What I have found out about the stall is that of course as others have said the stall is going to be different for each piece of meat, there are so many variables that determine the stall, the initial weight of the meat, the moisture content, the ambient temp of the smoker, the humidity inside the smoker, the outside ambient temp (in my case), the temp fluctuations and the list goes on. Affect any one of the variables and you affect the stall.

I my case I usually start with charcoal and continue to use it until I get to the stall, which I determine by time vrs temp......as an example if I hit 153 degrees and am there for longer than 30 minutes then I'm at stall. I usually cook at 237 which of course is the median temp between 225 and 250. Once I hit stall I change from charcoal to lump (because it burns hotter) and move the temp up to 275 until I start to get movement in the internal temp of the meat. Since the prevailing theory is that there is a moisture bubble around the meat causing it to sweat and keeping the meat at stall, as the internal temp rises then it should indicate that the moisture content is either reduced or simply can not maintain the stall.

As the temp rises, for every degree the internal temp rises I reduce the smoker by 5 degrees. Now I realize that this must seem a bit exacting but I haven't had a stall last me more than 45 minutes after realizing it was in an stall so about an hour and 15 minutes max. This has pretty much worked for me for everything from a 3 pound roast to an 8 pound pork shoulder and for me it comes down to how quickly I have to adjust the smoker temp.

I'm sure everyone has a different method and of course different smoker to have to fiddle with, but so far I'm very pleased with the results and I don't spend needless hours on the smoker when I could be eating the results.

Just my 2 cents..................


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