# why 225? a rookies question.



## dewetha

when compared to high temp grilling 450* plus there doesn't seam to be much difference between 225 and 250. even 275 isn't a big stretch.

i was wonder what makes 225 the magic number everyone tries to target?  i have not seen anything reasonable to distinguish using 225 vs 275.

so, we want bark, we want fat to render. we want muscle to break down. we want to reach the target 140* in 4hrs. all these things seam to favor a higher temp range than 225.

I guessing there are ceilings for some things. like sugar at x number of degrees burn so that would cap the highest. or fat or muscle only break down efficiently at x numbers of degrees.

i recently saw someone said to cook at 210 for moist food since water boils at 212.  that might make sense if you can hit the 140 in 4.

just curious


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## mr500

In my head, I believe that low temps slow time table gives the meat more time to soak up all the smoke as well as break down the meat. I have found a taste difference doing it hot and fast. Even though Mr Nixon does it and wins, its just not for me.

Slow down and grilllllllllllllllllllllll

M


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## jarjarchef

Wow you have asked a very interesting question..... You will get a lot of different answers. I am curious to see what you get...

Low and slow is the rule of thumb for BBQ. That is what makes it different than Grilling hot and fast. Lately it would seem the lines are getting blurred by some in BBQ by cooking at 300 or above. For me that is fire roasting, but that is me.

I do not have any scientific reasoning for what I do. I only have my feel, taste, experience and end product preference. I have always preferred a heat range of 250-275 and usually don't foil wrap my meat, don't know why just have always liked it. I get plenty of smoke taste, good smoke ring, nice bark and usually done in around the proper time guideline. The other day I did 3 shoulders (7# average cleaned) and they were done smoking, rested, picked, portioned for freezing in less than 8hrs. Now with the shoulders I had, they should have taken and was prepared for 11-14hrs at the 225-250 range. However I was having issues keeping the temp down on my smoker, so it actually stayed at 250-300 range. It actually was some of the best I have ever done and I have smoked a few thousand pounds of shoulders and butts (work in a large catering location that *had* a large smoker, now we buy it in 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





).

So in short. Go and try different things with your smoker and see what works for you. Make notes on your cooks and try to change only 1-2 things, so you can see what has made the difference. You will always find test subjects!!!! Most important: Don't allow yourself to get close minded and stuck in a rut, there are always new things to learn!!

Here is a link to my cook last weekend in case you want to take a look. I changed the tuning plates on the smoker and changed the sugar in my rub. That was my 2 changes for my test. Love the rub and the plates need a bit of work.....

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/125208/3-shoulder-picnic-ham-smoke-w-q-view


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## daveomak

dewetha said:


> when compared to high temp grilling 450* plus there doesn't seam to be much difference between 225 and 250. even 275 isn't a big stretch.
> 
> i was wonder what makes 225 the magic number everyone tries to target?  i have not seen anything reasonable to distinguish using 225 vs 275.
> 
> so, we want bark, we want fat to render. we want muscle to break down. we want to reach the target 140* in 4hrs. all these things seam to favor a higher temp range than 225.
> 
> I guessing there are ceilings for some things. like sugar at x number of degrees burn so that would cap the highest. or fat or muscle only break down efficiently at x numbers of degrees.
> 
> *i recently saw someone said to cook at 210 for moist food since water boils at 212.  that might make sense if you can hit the 140 in 4.*
> 
> just curious


dewetha, morning...  Here is one of those "quotes" I made recently.....  The discussion was about a pork shoulder, which when prepared properly falls under the category of an "intact muscle".... Intact muscles when not poked, probed, injected etc. are considered to have no intramuscular surface bacteria if stored at proper temps etc and all normal safety measures are taken prior to cooking....   Starting the cook cycle at a higher temp like 225 or higher kills surface bacteria....  I like 250-275 to crisp up the outside and then return the smoker to 210 for the duration...  just my preference... 

Cooking meat from start to finish below 225, it is recommended cure #1 be used... I can't remember where I read that, I could be wrong..  I think it is because the surface bacteria will not be killed fast enough and has time to mingle with intramuscular juices and spread throughout the muscle.. Hope that make sense and I didn't  screw it up......

*  [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]jd, morning..  I like to smoke my butts at 210 [/color]after the initial hour or so at a higher temp[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]....  210 is below the boiling point of water...  SmokinAl told me about his method at 210 and the meat always comes out moist...   About the mesquite smoke.... have you used mesquite before ?? It has a VERY powerful smoke taste if too much is used... I thought I would throw that in...  some folks don't like too much mesquite smoke flavor... me being one of those folks... I do like a little mesquite, it has a unique flavor...   Dave[/color]*

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Cooking whole intact muscles can be below the 140 temp for hours, and is perfectly safe to eat, given all the other safety and meat handling rules are followed...   Prime rib is an example of never reaching 140 deg IT...  [/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]There are so many different rules for different meat cuts, grinds, animals it comes from.....  taking one sentence out of context can be misleading....  I am not pointing at you to embarrass or anything like that... I am explaining for others whom may have had questions as you have...   [/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]On the forum, it is important to explain food safety so all folks reading these threads comes away with a fair understanding of "what is safe"....  I have made mistakes in the past and tried to correct them ASAP...  If I make an error, I don't get embarrassed, I'm human... I just explain my correction and apologize ....  [/font]

If anyone on this forum has a question about what I type, do not hesitate to question me in the thread, or in a PM... that is what we are here for...  to get answers to stuff, we do not fully understand....  

Dave


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## sqwib

First off I don't believe that 225° is a magic number.

I used to do 240-250° for butts and 225-240° for ribs now I shoot for 260° butts and 250° ribs and don't sweat a 20 degree swing either way. This may change next week I don't know, But I do not sweat the temps anymore and have much more relaxed smokes. My last Rib cook was at 450° 

210° Is too low in my opinion (I'm not saying it can't be done).

f you can't get a moist butt at 240-275 then something is wrong.

I have done butts averaging temps from 275° to 325° sometimes dropping to 225° with no ill effect.

But as you point out there are other factors to consider when doing a butt.

A butt loaded with sugar will do better with a lower temp then a higher temp, a rub such as Montreal Steak seasoning will do better at higher heats. And a naked Butt (no pun intended) will even perform better at higher heats. This statement is mainly directed at the Bark. There should be no noticeable difference in the butt.

I do my own homework and won't simply repeat what others have said, so, "don't be too quick to jump on the bandwagon, continue to do your homework but do your own testing on your own equipment.

Be careful of the replies you get on this thread, when some one gives their opinion they are giving their opinion based on their equipment, so Individual results will apply. Also the way they prep their butts can have an impact, do they trim the fat cap, do they leave it on?

I am in the process of doing some more testing on this, my next few picnics/butts will be done with various rubs.. I know other folks have done this, but I need to see it for my self on y equipment.

Read this Post

This post is based on my Stick burner more so than my GOSM


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## sqwib

jarjarchef said:


> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/125208/3-shoulder-picnic-ham-smoke-w-q-view


Good looking pork


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## brdprey

here is another form of explanation

http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/meat_science.html


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## jarjarchef

SQWIB said:


> Good looking pork




Thank you. It was hard to stop snacking on the bark as I was pulling it. But I earned it...


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## dewetha

I recently did 2 -8lb boston butts following a particular method from Myron Mixon. my smoker stayed at the range of 260 to 280 form most of it. I never hit a stall in either one. i'm not sure if it was the method, the pork, or the temp. looking forward to more tests and improving my process.

sometimes the smoker just likes to run at certain temps. i wanted 250 but the smoker liked either 220-230 or 260-280. probably the nice hot sun beating down on the smoker made a difference. i think i am going to worry less about a specific temp and just keep it running even anywhere i can from 225 to 275.


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## Rmartinez2

I know this is old and my apologies if I should have just started a new thread but my question is essentially the same. Specifically, however, is there a danger in cooking a cut of beer at a lower temp? Like I did 2 Ribeyes in my grills smoke setting which seems to settle in the 180 range. It took less than 90 mins to reach 130 then I pulled off and seared. Is there a danger here ?


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## noboundaries

The way you did it is fine for the rib eyes. Not really recommended for poundage though, like butts, briskets, and turkeys, especially if injected. See post #4 above. It can be done, but why flirt with disaster.

And for those who think all temperatures are the same, regardless of cooking method, that's not the case. Liquids conduct heat into cold meat 25 times faster than air. Braising involves a liquid. Slow cookers, which can have cooking temperatures as low as 180-200F, turn into braisers as liquid is drawn out of the meat if liquid was not added initially. Sous vide uses liquid heat conduction to pasteurize vacuum sealed meat over time. Smokers though, rely on air to conduct the heat, so low temps, without cure, should err to the side of safety. 

There's nothing magical about 225F. You can make great tasting Q at 225F to 350F+. It's all about the physics of heat conduction, smoke, time, and your equipment. One complaint I read is that some of the newer electronic smokers don't generate desirable smoke as chamber temps increase. Never having used one, I can neither confirm or deny that fact, but the solution many use is to set initial temps below 200F to get the smoke they want. Is it safe? So far, it appears to be.


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## chef jimmyj

Nothing magical. It has just been determined, through trial and error, that 225°F is the minimum temperature that will, CONSISTENTLY, get Poultry, Ground, Injected, Punctured and Boned-Rolled & Tied meat to a Safe IT in about 4 hours. Additionslly, 225° has been adopted by the USDA for Safe Smoking as well, see quote below. 

For intact meats we are only concerned about the surface as the interior is sterile in healthy animal. What temp will get the meat surface above 140 in 4 hours? Any temp of 140 or higher will do the job. It don't matter if the interior of red meat takes 24 hours to reach a safe or recommended IT.

So can you smoke your INTACT Rib Eye at 180 for 1, 10, 20 hours if you wish.? Sure! 
Can you smoke your Meat Loaf at 180 for more than 1 hour? NO SIR!!!...JJ

To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you’ll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and
one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout
the cooking process. Many smokers have built-in thermometers.
Use a food thermometer to determine the temperature of the meat or poultry.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...od-handling/smoking-meat-and-poultry/ct_index


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## noboundaries

I'm resurrecting this thread because I'm seeing newer folks drinking the 225F magic Koolaid. As several folks above have said, and I've posted repeatedly, there's nothing magical about the 225F chamber temp. In fact, if you are aiming for a tender probe in the 205F meat internal temp neighborhood, a 195F hunk of meat at the end of a smoke absorbs available heat significantly slower in a 225F smoker than a 250F or 275F smoker due to the physics of heat transfer. That last 10F can take hours in a 225F smoker compared to a 250F or higher smoker. The meat comes out exactly the same.

Personally, I manage the smoke clock with chamber temp. I like to sleep thru a long smoke and the stall, so I do 225F overnight, then crank the chamber temp up in the morning to 275F+ to finish in 1-5 hours.  My WSM allows me to do that. If I had to babysit an offset, it would rarely see anything less than 275F.


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## GaryHibbert

My personal preference is a temp of 240ish.  I did a comparison smoke of two butts, one at 240, foiled at the stall, and one at 275, no foil.  There was next to zero difference in the meat.  However, I use a fair amount of brown sugar in my pork rub, and the two temps made a huge difference in my bark.  Now I prefer a relatively soft bark, which I get at 240.  The bark at 275 was charred--wasn't happy with that at all.
Gary


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## noboundaries

GaryHibbert said:


> I use a fair amount of brown sugar in my pork rub, and the two temps made a huge difference in my bark. Now I prefer a relatively soft bark, which I get at 240. The bark at 275 was charred--wasn't happy with that at all.


 Great point, Gary. I rarely use sugar in my rubs, or use very little. The Malliard reaction of higher heat over a long time will result in bitter tasting bark.


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