# Smoked Cured pork loin is it right?



## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

Community,

I am a newbie to curing meat and I'm not sure if it was done correctly.

I used a cure recipe from the Hungarian smoked pork loin and I did use Instacure/Cure#1. That doesn't contain nitrates.

Im had it in the cure solution for 10 days, then I had it hanging in cold smoker for 3 days. Is it ok to eat? does it need heat? 

I tried a piece after I shut smoker off about 12 hrs after and it tasted good, I just don't know .

So I broke down and put on Traeger at lowest setting.


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

Sorry the cure does have both nitrate and nitrites.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 10, 2021)

Tell us a little more about the recipe. How much water, how much salt, and how much cure? Also need to know meat green weight.


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

I used the exact breakdown that another thread had a bout Hungarian smoked Karaj. im a newbie and I used that recipe let me see if i can find


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

Ingredients as percentage of meat weight.

2.8% Salt
0.3% Cure #2
0.25% Sugar
0.8% Black Pepper
0.6% Hungarian Paprika
0.15% Garlic Powder


Mix together salt, Cure #2 and other ingredients.
Rub the mixture into the loin.
Place into a plastic bag and leave for 7-10 days in fridge.
Remove loin from refrigerator and brush off the excess salt. Dry to touch.
Apply thin cold smoke for 1-3 days
Hang loin at 46º , 72-80% humidity for one month to equalize.
Dry loins for 3 weeks at 68-72º.
Füstölt Karaj is ready when it loses about 40% of its original weight

That was from that Master smoker digdog something


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## bregent (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Sorry the cure does have both nitrate and nitrites.



So you used cure #2 ?


Ah, you posted the recipe at the same time I did. So I see you did use #2. It should be fine.  Do you have a curing chamber?


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 10, 2021)

Recipe looks fine to me. The reason it calls for cure #2 is for the long drying period of 2-3 months for a weight loss of 40% this is a traditional dry cured product.


kvn said:


> So I broke down and put on Traeger at lowest setting.


The recipe intends for the meat to be dried not cooked ready to eat after 35-40% weight loss. To make this recipe and cook the meat, not dry it, you want to use cure #1 nitrite only. The nitrates in cure #2 convert to nitrites over time to continue food safety during the long drying period. This requires enzymes in the meat that develop slowly in the dry curing process. If you cook it, make sure you obtain an internal temperature of 145* or slightly more. As far as being safe to eat now, if eaten in small portion it won’t kill you or make you sick, but some nitrates could still remain. Next time make it with cure #1, hot smoke it and enjoy.


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## Hamdrew (Mar 10, 2021)

This was ~2wk wet cured. Little sweet as I am still dialing in my preferred ratio of pop's brine, but everyone else loved it. I still managed to love it quite a bit myself, lol.


















Couldn't stand waiting for a sandwich so i had to slice of a chunk while still hot..











Sliced before freezing ~48hrs later.


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

bregent said:


> So you used cure #2 ?
> 
> 
> Ah, you posted the recipe at the same time I did. So I see you did use #2. It should be fine.  Do you have a curing chamber?


Curing chamber?

I don't know what that is?


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

I thought i could let it hang in my smoker for the next few weeks? or is it better to put in a refrigerator?


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Recipe looks fine to me. The reason it calls for cure #2 is for the long drying period of 2-3 months for a weight loss of 40% this is a traditional dry cured product.
> 
> The recipe intends for the meat to be dried not cooked ready to eat after 35-40% weight loss. To make this recipe and cook the meat, not dry it, you want to use cure #1 nitrite only. The nitrates in cure #2 convert to nitrites over time to continue food safety during the long drying period. This requires enzymes in the meat that develop slowly in the dry curing process. If you cook it, make sure you obtain an internal temperature of 145* or slightly more. As far as being safe to eat now, if eaten in small portion it won’t kill you or make you sick, but some nitrates could still remain. Next time make it with cure #1, hot smoke it and enjoy.



Ok, Im confused on the hot smoking part, will it end up wet? or dry by hot smoking it?


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok, Im confused on the hot smoking part, will it end up wet? or dry by hot smoking it?


are you talking internally or external? Not sure just what you are asking. Basically it’s all dry, but not in the sense of drying the meat for 2 months. What exactly are you expecting?


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok, Im confused on the hot smoking part, will it end up wet? or dry by hot smoking it?




I'm new here but I've read and researched a bunch.  Here's my explanation.  Other more knowledgeable forum members - please correct any incorrect statements.

 Hot smoking or just putting it in the oven and cooking it will make it safe to eat (cooking it to 145 degrees) if you just take it out of the brine and want to eat it.  Pink salt #1 (contains only nitrites) is for short cures/brines and used when you intend to cook/consume the meat after you take it out of the brine.  Once out of the brine, you can then freeze it, or instead, finish the cook on it and consume it immediately. (think Bacon!)   Bacon can also be cold smoked and stored frozen then cooked at a later date.  

Prague powder/pink salt #2 (nitrites plus nitrates) is used for extended cures, often where the meat is not heated afterwards to raise the internal temperature to kill unwanted bugs - think old world salami and whole muscle cures (like your recipe).  Your recipe calls for pink salt #2 but it sounds like you used #1 from your first statement - if that is the case, then you should cook the meat to 145 degrees before consuming.  Pink salt #1 runs out of nitrites to cure the meat over time - that is where the nitrates in pink salt #2 pick up the slack.  They slowly break down into nitrites and continue to cure the processed meat over many weeks/months/years.  Think Prosciutto!

If you google "meat curing chamber" or search that term on this website, you'll find ample discussions about what a meat curing chamber is and it's use in doing extended meat curing over weeks or months.  This method is used in making salami and whole muscle cures. Once you have that setup ready, you can follow your directions (above) and produce a safe cured meat that doesn't need to be cooked prior to consuming.  You've got a lot of reading to do before you get going on this method of curing meat.


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## bregent (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Curing chamber?
> 
> I don't know what that is?



It's a controlled environment where you hang meat while it's drying.  It needs to lose 40% of its weight before it's ready to consume. How are you planning on doing that? If you don't have a curing chamber/room, you might consider using Umai Dry charcuterie bags.

You need to be absolutely sure you used cure #2 if you are making this.


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## daveomak (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ingredients as percentage of meat weight.
> 
> 2.8% Salt
> 0.3% Cure #2
> ...





That's a good recipe...  Hang it to dry out at 53-56F and lose the 40% weight...  THEN it's safe to eat...  The nitrate in the cure#2 and the 2.8% salt will bring the salt content up to 3% + then it will go up more with the weight loss to about 4.2% () I think I got that correct) which will kill any bacteria and the nitrite will convert to nitrate to kill any botulism bacteria...  
When using cure#2,  any meat is designed to not be cooked...
The 53-56F range is necessary BECAUSE, bacteria grows really slow and allows the meat to dry safely...  Higher temps encourage bacterial growth until the meat has lost the 40% weight and the salt content takes over along with the nitrate converting to nitrite...


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 10, 2021)

daveomak said:


> That's a good recipe...  Hang it to dry out at 53-56F and lose the 40% weight...  THEN it's safe to eat...  The nitrate in the cure#2 and the 2.8% salt will bring the salt content up to 3% + then it will go up more with the weight loss to about 4.2% () I think I got that correct) which will kill any bacteria and the nitrite will convert to nitrate to kill any botulism bacteria...
> When using cure#2,  any meat is designed to not be cooked...
> The 53-56F range is necessary BECAUSE, bacteria grows really slow and allows the meat to dry safely...  Higher temps encourage bacterial growth until the meat has lost the 40% weight and the salt content takes over along with the nitrate converting to nitrite...



OK - I gotta ask.  I thought that 30% weight loss was the target on dry cured meats.  Is it 30 - 40 %?  Too much information too fast.


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 10, 2021)

daveomak said:


> That's a good recipe...  Hang it to dry out at 53-56F and lose the 40% weight...  THEN it's safe to eat...  The nitrate in the cure#2 and the 2.8% salt will bring the salt content up to 3% + then it will go up more with the weight loss to about 4.2% () I think I got that correct) which will kill any bacteria and the nitrite will convert to nitrate to kill any botulism bacteria...
> When using cure#2,  any meat is designed to not be cooked...
> The 53-56F range is necessary BECAUSE, bacteria grows really slow and allows the meat to dry safely...  Higher temps encourage bacterial growth until the meat has lost the 40% weight and the salt content takes over along with the nitrate converting to nitrite...



BTW Daveomak - the book "The Art of Making Fermented Sausages" is essentially a bible for amateurs interested in the topic.  It was a quick read (as I was a Microbiology major in College (in the 80's)).  The book puts together no nonsense explanation of the processes at hand and provides many avenues for enthusiasts to exploit in whatever direction their interests lay.  Thanks for the push to add it to my library!


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 10, 2021)

Back to the topic at hand.  I was just reading other threads to expand my knowledge base and found this gem from just a few weeks ago.  Watch the videos linked by the OP - you'll learn a ton about curing salts and their use.  





__





						Strolghino...(Fortune Teller Salami)
					

Strolghino Salami is made with the trimmings of the ham after boning out and trimming for culatello and fiocco. It is simply seasoned with salt and pepper, the same as the culatello and is said to fore tell what the final culatello will taste like. @Cajuneric made a youtube about this salami...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

daveomak said:


> That's a good recipe...  Hang it to dry out at 53-56F and lose the 40% weight...  THEN it's safe to eat...  The nitrate in the cure#2 and the 2.8% salt will bring the salt content up to 3% + then it will go up more with the weight loss to about 4.2% () I think I got that correct) which will kill any bacteria and the nitrite will convert to nitrate to kill any botulism bacteria...
> When using cure#2,  any meat is designed to not be cooked...
> The 53-56F range is necessary BECAUSE, bacteria grows really slow and allows the meat to dry safely...  Higher temps encourage bacterial growth until the meat has lost the 40% weight and the salt content takes over along with the nitrate converting to nitrite...


Ok, so can i just keep cold  smoking it? Or better to put in fridge?


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## Fueling Around (Mar 10, 2021)

I'm cautious on any books considered a bible" for curing.

There is a popular book on "Charcuterie: ..." that (IMHO) has some very questionable recipes.


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 10, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> I'm cautious on any books considered a bible" for curing.
> 
> There is a popular book on "Charcuterie: ..." that (IMHO) has some very questionable recipes.


I understand your skepticism  - but a quick review of this book and you would understand that it is not a "how to make" book.  It is a food-science based book about meat curing made by a professional as a safety go-by for enthusiasts.  The intent of the book is to protect us from producing dangerous or deadly products by questionable methods.  It provides a good description of practices and throws in some recipes in the last 1/3 of the book.  From the table of contents - chapter names:

-  Fermented meats
- Its all about bacteria
-  Fermentation step by step
-  starter cultures
-  additives and ingredients
-  Safety hurdles
- smoking
- Fermented sausages
-  Slow fermented sausages
- fast fermented sausages
- Cold smoked, cooked, and other fermented sausages
- Equipment
- Guidelines to sausage recipes
- Sausage recipes (none of which I wanted to make, but which are still a great resource)
- Troubleshooting etc.......

Not what you nor I expected, but if you want to be safe making fermented sausages, then this is the best book that I know of for amateur enthusiasts.   It is not fun to read, but it is important to read if you don't completely understand the fermentation processes and use of various inoculating bacterial cultures into your grind.  If you have a desire to produce high quality and safe fermented sausages/salami to share with your family and friends, then  I highly recommend it.


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> are you talking internally or external? Not sure just what you are asking. Basically it’s all dry, but not in the sense of drying the meat for 2 months. What exactly are you expecting?


Thats a great question, i am wanting to have good sliceable pork loin, that has been cured and smoked.


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## indaswamp (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok, so can i just keep cold  smoking it? Or better to put in fridge?


Depends on what conditions are inside your smokehouse....

To dry properly, you need an environment that is between 53-58*F and 75-85% relative humidity.

Or you can use umia bags and put them in the fridge.

These parameters are for slowing the drying of the  outer part of the meat so that the inside can diffuse water to the outside and the whole product will dry somewhat equally. If you don't follow these parameter then the outside will dry faster than this inside of the meat and that will seal in the moisture as it can not escape....the meat will rot from the inside out.


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## indaswamp (Mar 10, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> I'm cautious on any books considered a bible" for curing.
> 
> There is a popular book on "Charcuterie: ..." that (IMHO) has some very questionable recipes.


Ruhlman? Yeah, some of his recipes use way too much dextrose....


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## kvn (Mar 10, 2021)

Ok,

I used tenderquick that has both nitrates and nitrites is it best to continue or put on hot smoker to finish then let rest and eat?

obviously i am very unsure, any ideas?


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## indaswamp (Mar 10, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok,
> 
> I used tenderquick that has both nitrates and nitrites is it best to continue or put on hot smoker to finish then let rest and eat?
> 
> obviously i am very unsure, any ideas?


If you are just trying to make a cured smoked loin like Canadian bacon, then yes, hot smoke it and eat it. But if you want to make a dry cured product where the loin is dried and loses 35-40% of it's weight, then you need to find an environment with the parameters I mentioned above. OR......you can use umia dry bags which are made to dry cure products in a normal refrigerator at low temps. and low RH%.

I'd suggest cooking this one, buy some umia dry bags, and start over if you want a dried product. Meanwhile continue reading and furthering your education. 

meatsandsausages.com is a great resource....


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## kvn (Mar 11, 2021)

Ok, so the tenderquick isn't for long term curing? just want to make sure


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## indaswamp (Mar 11, 2021)

I do not use tenderquick. I know it has both nitrite and nitrate in it, but I do not know the percentages. It is an older product, but many people in the NE still use it for old family recipes.  I use cure #2 and adjust the salt and sugar to my tastes.

Point of note- not all cure #2 is standard. You need to check it and figure out how much you need to add to give you the right ppm of nitrate.


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 11, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> If you are just trying to make a cured smoked loin like Canadian bacon, then yes, hot smoke it and eat it. But if you want to make a dry cured product where the loin is dried and loses 35-40% of it's weight, then you need to find an environment with the parameters I mentioned above. OR......you can use umia dry bags which are made to dry cure products in a normal refrigerator at low temps. and low RH%.
> 
> I'd suggest cooking this one, buy some umia dry bags, and start over if you want a dried product. Meanwhile continue reading and furthering your education.
> 
> meatsandsausages.com is a great resource....


I agree.  The price of the pork loin is pretty low and you can still enjoy the cure you put on the meat safely by cooking it before eating. If you smoke it as you cook, it might end up a bit like bacon.    Next time, read up and have a plan for a 6 - 8 (or more) week dry cure using Instacure #2.  You'll need a temperature and humidity controlled environment to cure it unless you live in conditions similar to Italy - (California).


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2021)

Mmmm Meat said:


> OK - I gotta ask.  I thought that 30% weight loss was the target on dry cured meats.  Is it 30 - 40 %?  Too much information too fast.



I'm taking a SWAG here....  I have read where each muscle group holds differing amounts of moisture...  and will absorb differing amounts as well...  So, I think the folks that make the recipes, measure the Aw, water activity, and determine when a particular muscle group is safe...  Water is necessary for bacterial growth...  Below a certain level, it dies...  
That being said....
NEVER take part of one recipe and assume it's ok to use in another recipe...


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok, so can i just keep cold  smoking it? Or better to put in fridge?



Not necessarily...  Follow the steps in the method....


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> I'm cautious on any books considered a bible" for curing.
> 
> There is a popular book on "Charcuterie: ..." that (IMHO) has some very questionable recipes.




I agree...  I don't believe much written by Rhulman...  
He is an author....  He follows some knowledgeable folks, about meat processing, around and takes crappy notes..  Then hands stuff off to apprentices to formalize into a book...  that he couldn't possible proof read OR he forgot what the story was about...
All of this to try and capitalize on the meat smoking, etc. boom.....


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 11, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> I'm cautious on any books considered a bible" for curing.
> 
> There is a popular book on "Charcuterie: ..." that (IMHO) has some very questionable recipes.


Agree
However, any book written by Stanley or Adam Marianski about meat curing/preservation, is golden. Straight up no B.S on subjects ranging from canning meats and vegetables to cheese making, curing meat to fermentation and salami.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 11, 2021)

kvn said:


> Thats a great question, i am wanting to have good sliceable pork loin, that has been cured and smoked.


For now I recommend you hot smoke this one and enjoy it.
Then I recommend you purchase a book “Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages” by Stanley and Adam Marianski. This is a tremendous recourse for any who want to understand the process of curing, smoking and preserving meats. This will get a little more knowledge under your belt before you try this again.


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> I do not use tenderquick. I know it has both nitrite and nitrate in it, but I do not know the percentages. It is an older product, but many people in the NE still use it for old family recipes.  I use cure #2 and adjust the salt and sugar to my tastes.
> 
> Point of note- not all cure #2 is standard. You need to check it and figure out how much you need to add to give you the right ppm of nitrate.




Hey Inda...  morning...     TQ is 0.5% nitrite and 0.5% nitrate.....








Cure #1 and Cure#2 are used at the same rate....   They both have 6.25% nitrite mixed in...
That rate is 0.25% (0.0025) weight of the meat or... I weigh out 1.1 grams per pound of meat... 
Or, using a method I'm not in tune with, 1 level tsp per 5#'s of meat... (Not all measuing spoons are equivalent)

25% volume difference in these tsp.  measuring devices...






The nitrate can have a different amount...  I have seen that from different manufacturers...   Since it is a "time release" chemical, based on microbe activity in the meat,  I'm not smart enough to know what's going on...


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2021)

kvn said:


> Ok, so the tenderquick isn't for long term curing? just want to make sure




Cure #2 is for long term curing...  3 months to 2 years, give or take....

TQ...  I would not use it...  In order to get to the amount of nitrite needed to cure a given product, you must add 13X's the amount of TQ which adds 13X's the salt....
TQ, in my opinion, was developed to allow folks to kill animals for food and preserve the meat, without refrigeration...  
I make Old World Bacon... I have altered the recipes to use cure#1...


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## chopsaw (Mar 11, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Ruhlman? Yeah, some of his recipes use way too much dextrose....


And salt . His book makes a good door stop .
O.P. originally said he used cure 1 . Then he said cure 2 .  I didn't read thru all of this , just curious if it was established what he used ?


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## bregent (Mar 11, 2021)

kvn said:


> I used tenderquick that has both nitrates and nitrites is it best to continue or put on hot smoker to finish then let rest and eat?



If you used Tenderquick at the rates you specified in the recipe you posted, then your pork is not cured. An uncured cold smoked pork loin is probably not safe to eat -  I would toss it. 

If you used TQ at the rates recommended by Morton, then you are probably ok.


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## kvn (Mar 23, 2021)

daveomak said:


> That's a good recipe...  Hang it to dry out at 53-56F and lose the 40% weight...  THEN it's safe to eat...  The nitrate in the cure#2 and the 2.8% salt will bring the salt content up to 3% + then it will go up more with the weight loss to about 4.2% () I think I got that correct) which will kill any bacteria and the nitrite will convert to nitrate to kill any botulism bacteria...
> When using cure#2,  any meat is designed to not be cooked...
> The 53-56F range is necessary BECAUSE, bacteria grows really slow and allows the meat to dry safely...  Higher temps encourage bacterial growth until the meat has lost the 40% weight and the salt content takes over along with the nitrate converting to nitrite...


Do you need a cure chamber for that?


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 24, 2021)

kvn said:


> Do you need a cure chamber for that?



That, or a suitable environment (slightly drafty basement or similar) where the temps stay around the ranges suggested.  75% - 80% humidity is desirable too.  These are the guidelines.  Old world charcuterie was made without curing chambers so one would expect that a bit of variability still gets the job done.  

Whole muscle curing is pretty safe if you dry cure or brine under refrigeration with recommended salt and cure percentages for the appropriate amount of time.   Then hang the meat in a space close to suggested parameters till you loose 35 -40 % of the original weight, then eat it up.   You can find calculators online that can tell you how long to cure the meat based on size and weight.


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## kvn (Mar 24, 2021)

Mmmm Meat said:


> That, or a suitable environment (slightly drafty basement or similar) where the temps stay around the ranges suggested.  75% - 80% humidity is desirable too.  These are the guidelines.  Old world charcuterie was made without curing chambers so one would expect that a bit of variability still gets the job done.
> 
> Whole muscle curing is pretty safe if you dry cure or brine under refrigeration with recommended salt and cure percentages for the appropriate amount of time.   Then hang the meat in a space close to suggested parameters till you loose 35 -40 % of the original weight, then eat it up.   You can find calculators online that can tell you how long to cure the meat based on size and weight.


Thanks!


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 24, 2021)

Mmmm Meat said:


> Then hang the meat in a space close to suggested parameters till you loose 35 -40 % of the original weight, then eat it up.


The old world makers hung their salumi in the shade well ventilated knowing the humidity goes down in the day and rises at night. This creates an average. Humidity can dip into the low 60’s but needs to have equal time in the mid to upper 70’s or into the 80’s to rehydrate the surface of the product. This will work, but is best to just keep RH 75-80%


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## Mmmm Meat (Mar 24, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> The old world makers hung their salumi in the shade well ventilated knowing the humidity goes down in the day and rises at night. This creates an average. Humidity can dip into the low 60’s but needs to have equal time in the mid to upper 70’s or into the 80’s to rehydrate the surface of the product. This will work, but is best to just keep RH 75-80%



Exactly.  Better safe than sorry - it's not that hard to create a space that can maintain those parameters 

- but I'm pretty sure the old-world makers didn't understand the humidity situation.  More likely, they discovered over hundreds of years of curing meat that certain seasons provided the conditions that provided excellent conditions for charcuterie, and other seasons created conditions that often resulted in total failure.  . 

(having lived in Italy for five years, I was made entirely aware of their acceptance that their fate was in God's hands.  They did extraordinarily dangerous things that we would never even consider.  I have been on the Autostrada (freeway) going well over a hundred miles per hour with my Italian friends driving.  I (in the back seat) put on my seatbelt and they laughed at me and explained that if it was our time to die,  then God had it already planned.  No sense in practicing safety.  Similarly, on many occasions, I would see incredibly dangerous situations  while driving - people lying in the middle of the road  in the middle of a blind corner, passing on blind corners, people working on a car with legs laying out exposed towards the middle on a single country paved road...... or the best, the ones that always blew American Servicemen/women away - the four car pass on a two lane highway.  One slow vehicle would cause a backup of many Italian drivers in a hurry.  As soon as a clear spot became available, the first car behind the slow driver would begin to pass him, but the impatient drivers behind him would pass him as he passed the slow vehicle.  If there were faster cars farther back in the line, they would pass the other drivers who were also passing, creating a wall of 5 cars all going the same direction on a road that was intended to have enough space for two lanes plus shoulders for stopped vehicles, often while there was oncoming traffic coming from the other direction.  Absolute pandemonium - and this is just a taste of how they place their lives in God's hands and at times forsake basic safety).  

Knowing all that by first hand experience, I'm very sure that their methods that have been passed down family lines over generations were all developed over many (many) years by the survivors that learned by the mistakes of their forefathers.    For us, rather than following those often questionable practices, sticking to the recommended current temperature and humidity protocols ensures the highest levels of safety, especially when working with ground/diced meats.   There are many reputable resources that provide safe methods to produce quality cured meats with a minimal risk.  It is those practices that we should emulate.


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