# Whats special about 225°



## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

I see it often here where someone asks about how to smoke.something and the general response is to smoke it at 225° for a time range, and an IT to shoot for.  Sometimes it is recommended to smoke higher.

My question is, is there magic in the 225° or is a temp like 215° just as good but will take longer?  Is there some reason that smoking lower can cause a problem?

Just trying to understand.  I like the smoke from my smoker at 215°.


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## TNJAKE (Dec 5, 2021)

Nothing special about 225. Some things I like that temp. Some things I want higher. The only real downside to below 225 is the extra time it will take to reach desired IT. Another concern with smoking below 225 is the possibility of not getting the meat out of the danger zone 40-140 within 4 hours


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## SecondHandSmoker (Dec 5, 2021)

225° is lowest temperature recommended for uncured meats per FSIS and as 

 TNJAKE
 mentioned above for safety reasons.
As a safety guideline, SMF also advises members to not smoke lower than 225°.


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## smokeymose (Dec 5, 2021)

It's always been something of a mystery to me. Having said that, I've never had a smoker that would do low temps like that so maybe I'm a little biased.
My offset likes to go between 250 and 290 (depending on weather) to keep the "thin blue" and everything comes out just fine.
I personally think it's akin to an "Old Wives Tale". I'm sure others disagree......


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## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

TNJAKE said:


> Nothing special about 225. Some things I like that temp. Some things I want higher. The only real downside to below 225 is the extra time it will take to reach desired IT. Another concern with smoking below 225 is the possibility of not getting the meat out of the danger zone 40-140 within 4 hours



If my cook will never take longer then 4 hours, I dont have to worry?

Or if the IT will also not be above 130, I'm safe?  Is there a different time constraint to get to IT 130°, or is it still 4 hrs.


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## TNJAKE (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> If my cook will never take longer then 4 hours, I dont have to worry?
> 
> Or if the IT will also not be above 130, I'm safe?  Is there a different time constraint to get to IT 130°, or is it still 4 hrs.


You can use whatever temp you want if you are doing a cook that's less than 4 hours. As long as you are meeting the USDA recommended temps for particular meat. So anything ground, or pork, or chicken will always have to be above 140 in 4hrs. Beef can be consumed rare so that rule doesn't really apply for it


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## TNJAKE (Dec 5, 2021)

I will also add you'll never get ANYTHING to 140 in 4 hours if your smoker temp is 115. If you cook at 115 then that will dictate your meat to not ever be warmer than that. Would be the equivalent of trying to boil water at 150. It will never happen


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## JLeonard (Dec 5, 2021)

I have a propane smoker and I let it settle into what ever temp its happy with that day. A lot of it will depend on environmental variables, as well as what I'm cooking. This temp can be anywhere from 225-300 degrees. As long as I'm getting good smoke out of it and its not running crazy temps i just let it roll. And I  agree with Jake totally. Also If I may suggest...Get a good remote thermometer. If your going by the factory thermometer you may not even be close to the temp showing. 
Jim


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## golfpro2301 (Dec 5, 2021)

When I first started I only did 225 because I thought that was true bbq and anything high 275+ people didn't know what they were doing. I took this mindset to comps and won one award.
 At that temp. After attending Myron school where we cooked brisket at 350 I noticed how appearance in meats improved as well as anlot less time without sacrificing flavor. I then Played around and since then always cook 275-300 and have closet full of trophies since I switched

i am not saying 225 is wrong but think others should try hot and fast and compare. You may be shocked at results

on rare occasion ill go real low but its due to fact wife made plans that night that I didnt want to go to so the whole “need babysit smoker all night” excuse works with low temp and long cook times


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## gmc2003 (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> Just trying to understand. I like the smoke from my smoker at 115°.



I really hope this is a typo.

As for 225* being special. Besides the above stated safety concerns. The only other reason is it serves a time guideline for certain meats. Sample 2-2-1 and 3-2-1 for spares and babyback ribs. The amount of smokey flavor may be affected somewhat, but I really don't think you'll see much difference in a pork butt smoked at 215, 225, 250 or even 300*. As long as all other variables are the same. 

Chris


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## xbubblehead (Dec 5, 2021)

Yeah, my kettle grill likes to run at 350F and my bullet smoker seems to be comfortable at 250-275F so I just go with rather than drive myself crazy for the whole grill/smoke forcing a different temp.  Haven't ruined any meat or made anyone sick yet!!


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## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

TNJAKE said:


> I will also add you'll never get ANYTHING to 140 in 4 hours if your smoker temp is 115. If you cook at 115 then that will dictate your meat to not ever be warmer than that. Would be the equivalent of trying to boil water at 150. It will never happen



Yes, 115 was a typo, sorry about my fat fingers.


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## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

gmc2003 said:


> I really hope this is a typo.
> 
> As for 225* being special. Besides the above stated safety concerns. The only other reason is it serves a time guideline for certain meats. Sample 2-2-1 and 3-2-1 for spares and babyback ribs. The amount of smokey flavor may be affected somewhat, but I really don't think you'll see much difference in a pork butt smoked at 215, 225, 250 or even 300*. As long as all other variables are the same.
> 
> Chris


Yes, sorry about that.  Fat fingers on my tablet and didn't proof read.


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## thirdeye (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> If my cook will never take longer then 4 hours, I dont have to worry?
> 
> Or if the IT will also not be above 130, I'm safe?  Is there a different time constraint to get to IT 130°, or is it still 4 hrs.


If you are smoking whole muscle meat that has not been disturbed (studding with garlic, injection, deboning etc.) you only need the surface to be >140° in 4 hours or less.... which is easy even at some low pit temps.


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## noboundaries (Dec 5, 2021)

It's all about the clock for me. I do 225F on long overnight smokes. The magic? I can sleep!

I'll be doing spare ribs today. Probably will smoke them north of 300F.


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## thirdeye (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> I see it often here where someone asks about how to smoke.something and the general response is to smoke it at 225° for a time range, and an IT to shoot for.  Sometimes it is recommended to smoke higher.
> 
> My question is, is there magic in the 225° or is a temp like 215° just as good but will take longer?  Is there some reason that smoking lower can cause a problem?
> 
> Just trying to understand.  I like the smoke from my smoker at 215°.









Oddly enough, the answer relates to the boiling temperature of water. But we need to take a ride on the 'way back' machine to get the whole story.  Before modern day rubs, or injections, and way before meat was engineered.... the old barbecue men cooked low-n-slow, and taught low-n-slow methods. The methods were handed down from generation to generation. Open pit barbecue was the predecessor to the evolution of modern day cookers, and nearly every barbecue man basted (mopped) the meat.

Smoky Hale,  one of the self proclaimed 'Old Basters' in the world of barbecue, and a great story teller, cooked most things at low pit temps.  He defined barbecue this way: 
_*Barbecue
Meat cooked in the dry heat of wood coals at temperatures around the boiling point of water (212*F at sea level). An essential distinction from other forms of cooking is the temperature at which it is cooked. The lower temperature allows the meat to become tender while preserving its natural juices and the exterior does not dry out before the center becomes done. The long cooking period allows for myriad savory seasonings and provides ample opportunity for pleasurable activities. The consummate barbecuer excels in the latter as much as the former.*_

The problem with this philosophy is that in the 20's, 30's, 40's and so on..... thermometers were rare. Heck, I didn't have a pit with a proper thermometer or a fast read thermometer until maybe 25 years ago.  Anyways, the old school barbecuists cooked by sight, by listening to the meats sizzle and by feel. Barbecue was very hands on.  And by the way.... my Grandfather and Great Uncle were both open pit barbecue men. So I learned from a good one.


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## xbubblehead (Dec 5, 2021)

The problem with the boiling point of water and listen to it sizzle approach is that at altitude that point can be much too low, roughly 10F lower than at sea level for every 5,000 ft in elevation.  I'm right around 6,000 ft and my boiling point is around 202F, only a few degrees above the normal pull temperature for most roasts, a little higher in elevation and I could be sitting in a stall when I should be pulling the meat.  Not only need a thermometer but I absolutely have to test for tenderness as I near when I think I should time out.


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> View attachment 518194
> 
> Oddly enough, the answer relates to the boiling temperature of water. But we need to take a ride on the 'way back' machine to get the whole story.  Before modern day rubs, or injections, and way before meat was engineered.... the old barbecue men cooked low-n-slow, and taught low-n-slow methods. The methods were handed down from generation to generation. Open pit barbecue was the predecessor to the evolution of modern day cookers, and nearly every barbecue man basted (mopped) the meat.
> 
> ...


This is my research as well. 225* is very old school, and here is a little more on why.

Meat IT tends to lag 15-20* behind the pit temperature. We know that an IT of around 205* gives us “perfect” pulled pork, fall off the bone ribs and succulent brisket. 205+15= 220* pit temp. So this is a way to perfectly cook meats and leave them in the smoke sauna for the longest time and never really over cook the meat. 
In my estimation, the boiling point of water is irrelevant, because my brisket, ribs, PP, are all perfectly done at around 205* IT at 6500’ elevation just as it is at sea level, and we all know water boils at different temps between the two elevations.

I BBQ everything somewhere between 250-300*. It’s timely and just plain works. 225 does too, but it is minimum and most time consuming, with little flavor benefits, IMHO.


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## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> I BBQ everything somewhere between 250-300*. It’s timely and just plain works. 225 does too, but it is minimum and most time consuming, with little flavor benefits, IMHO.



then you are saying the difference is time on the smoker does not yield more opportunity for more smoke flavor to be added to the meat?


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> then you are saying the difference is time on the smoker does not yield more opportunity for more smoke flavor to be added to the meat?


Not enough to make it worth my while. It does add for sure, just not a value to me. I’ll also say it’s questionable as to how much the extra time actually improves flavor. Time to me is valuable. I need something measurable for it. 225* does not deliver that for me or anyone I know in relation to BBQ.


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## tallbm (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> I see it often here where someone asks about how to smoke.something and the general response is to smoke it at 225° for a time range, and an IT to shoot for.  Sometimes it is recommended to smoke higher.
> 
> My question is, is there magic in the 225° or is a temp like 215° just as good but will take longer?  Is there some reason that smoking lower can cause a problem?
> 
> Just trying to understand.  I like the smoke from my smoker at 215°.



Didn't read the whole thread but the only magic I can think of when dealing with 225F are the two following things:


Meat in the smoker doesn't really want to go higher than 15F degrees below the smoker temp.  So at 225F smoker temp you can get meat to 210F internal temp (IT) before it wants to really resist rising in temp.  This means you can do any kind of BBQ and hit an IT.... but 225F will still take a looooooong time to get it there when often not necessary.


On the East Coast or the "Old" South a lot of BBQ is seasoned/rubbed with sugar.  Sugar will want to burn and get bitter at temps around 250F or above (that's my understanding at least).  So no burning sugar.  In Texas this isn't really a problem as my whole life I never saw anyone put sugar in a seasoning or rub for BBQ so sugar to burn and get bitter.
That's about all I can think of, but that is just knowing nuances of making BBQ.  I never heard anyone say 225F because of those 2 points.

When making BBQ it is best to understand that each meat has it's own quirks to deal with.  These quirks will affect the time, temp, and approach to making the BBQ

For example chicken/turkey with skin on will want to be smoked at 325F or higher in order for the skin to be edible.  If not you get leather/rubber skin.  Yeah you can attempt some  other tricks to avoid the rubber skin but all I have tried have not been satisfactory, only the temp to cook at.  Skinless, no issue cook at any temp.

Brisket, chucks, pork butts, beef ribs, and some others don't care what temp they are smoked at as long as you don't put sugar on it. They are all done when they are tender and the IT of the meat will tell you when to check for tenderness.  Never time or temp, only tenderness.

Other meats chicken/turkey, ribeye roasts, and others are done when the meat hits a specific IT.

Sausage and bacon have a specific process of curing and then brining the smoker temp up slowly to like 160-170F until the meat hits desired IT.

So, on and so on.  The meat you are making will determine what you do with process, time, temp, tenderness, etc. :)

I hope this info helps


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## xbubblehead (Dec 5, 2021)

At my 6,000 ft or SmokinEdge's 6,500 ft the ideal pull temperature is still below the boiling point.  At 7,000 ft the boiling point is below 200F where it can start to become an issue for an extended cook time.


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

xbubblehead said:


> At my 6,000 ft or SmokinEdge's 6,500 ft the ideal pull temperature is still below the boiling point.  At 7,000 ft the boiling point is below 200F where it can start to become an issue for an extended cook time.


How is 7000’ a problem?


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## WaterRat (Dec 5, 2021)

On most pellet smokers you’ll get more  smoke at lower temps so that is a consideration when I’m smoking. So I may smoke a butt at 225 until an IT 160, then wrap it and bump to 300 until tender.


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## schlotz (Dec 5, 2021)

There is no real special temp to smoke at. For example you can smoke butts and briskets at any temp, low & slow or hot & fast. Same for ribs. There are other more important aspects mentioned above related to food safety that should be followed. The rest is up to you.  Find a method that suits you and fits the time frame you have available.


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## yankee2bbq (Dec 5, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> It's all about the clock for me. I do 225F on long overnight smokes. The magic? I can sleep!
> 
> I'll be doing spare ribs today. Probably will smoke them north of 300F.


 I’m with 

 noboundaries
. 
I smoke big pieces of meat overnight @ 225. Wake up in the morning and kick up the pit temperature to 250-260 and finish off to my desired IT.
 My smoker: WSM 22 with a Bbq Guru controller.


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## pineywoods (Dec 5, 2021)

Most cuts that we smoke are cheaper (I know not so cheap) and are tougher cuts so 225 gives the meat longer to break down all the meat fibers and collagen to make the meat tender. Cooking it at 300-350 doesn't give it as long to break the fibers and collagen down. It will also affect the amount of smoke the meat gets some people say not much but how can something smoked at 350 have the same smoke content as something smoked at 225? When it comes to smoker temp shoot for a range not an exact temp otherwise you will drive yourself nuts constantly trying to adjust the temp. I shoot for 225 but have a range of 215-250 if It's running in that range I'm happy and not adjusting anything. As was mentioned some things are better at different temps like poultry it doesn't have all the tough meat fibers and collagen to break down so smoking it at a higher temp will affect the amount of smoke it takes in. At 225 the skin on poultry comes out like rubber kick that smoker temp up to 325-350 and you get a little less smoke but nice crispy skin. Fish is another one that doesn't need to be smoked at 225. 
As was mentioned earlier in the old days most people didn't have thermometers for checking the smoker temp or the meat temp but if they kept the smoker going at just below boiling point it was considered good if liquid started to boil then they knew it was to hot. They could run the smoker just below boiling and cook it long enough to be tender but not dried out


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## DougE (Dec 5, 2021)

WaterRat said:


> On most pellet smokers you’ll get more  smoke at lower temps so that is a consideration when I’m smoking. So I may smoke a butt at 225 until an IT 160, then wrap it and bump to 300 until tender.


I have got to where I run mine on low smoke (160 degrees) for awhile, to get some good smoke on, then bump up to 275-300 for the rest of the cook.


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## xbubblehead (Dec 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> How is 7000’ a problem?


Large muscle meat contains 45% to 72% moisture depending on several factors that don't really matter here.  Even if we assume our cut of roast is on the low end of that range that moisture is going to vaporize when it gets to it's boiling point and in the process it can retard the meat getting to our desired pull IT and potentially cause the meat to dry more than we want due to extended cook time.  Brining adds to the moisture content so consider it as well.  

There is nothing magic about 7,000 ft, it just happens to be where the BP drops below 200F, a typical pull IT.  The elevation issue is much more severe for other cooking methods such braising, boiling or steaming but it doesn't go away because we're grilling or smoking.


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## chesterinflorida (Dec 5, 2021)

I cook poultry north of 300 degrees

Big meats I like 270-280 degrees or so.

Stuff like ribs that don’t take so long or pork tenderloin i like 225 to 250 degrees at least to start, then tend to bump up later in the cook.


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

xbubblehead said:


> Large muscle meat contains 45% to 72% moisture depending on several factors that don't really matter here.  Even if we assume our cut of roast is on the low end of that range that moisture is going to vaporize when it gets to it's boiling point and in the process it can retard the meat getting to our desired pull IT and potentially cause the meat to dry more than we want due to extended cook time.  Brining adds to the moisture content so consider it as well.
> 
> There is nothing magic about 7,000 ft, it just happens to be where the BP drops below 200F, a typical pull IT.  The elevation issue is much more severe for other cooking methods such braising, boiling or steaming but it doesn't go away because we're grilling or smoking.


Still matters not.
My meat is fall off the bone at same IT as sea level. No difference.
You people over think stuff, and create problems where there are none.
What’s next? BBQ on the moon??? Who cares, it’s irrelevant.
I’ve made chuck roast so mushy tender I didn’t want to eat it cooking at 135* in SV for 48 hours. How is that possible??? Good grief the fake news.


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## noboundaries (Dec 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> I’ve made chuck roast so mushy tender I didn’t want to eat it cooking at 135* in SV for 48 hours. How is that possible??? Good grief the fake news.



Water transfers heat 25 times more efficiently than air. It's all about physics.


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> Water transfers heat 25 times more efficiently than air. It's all about physics.


Yeah,, and??


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## jcam222 (Dec 5, 2021)

Nefarious said:


> If my cook will never take longer then 4 hours, I dont have to worry?
> 
> Or if the IT will also not be above 130, I'm safe?  Is there a different time constraint to get to IT 130°, or is it still 4 hrs.


What are you smoking at 210F that finishes in < 4 hours? I smoke virtually everything between 250F and 300F. I see no discernible difference in flavor or tenderness or even smoke ring between thst and lower temps.


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## Nefarious (Dec 5, 2021)

jcam222 said:


> What are you smoking at 210F that finishes in < 4 hours? I smoke virtually everything between 250F and 300F. I see no discernible difference in flavor or tenderness or even smoke ring between thst and lower temps.



A 4lb  whole prime beef loin, I'm in 2 hrs now.and IT is 112°.

Actually it is at 215° on average.  That was.just an example.


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## thirdeye (Dec 5, 2021)

xbubblehead said:


> At my 6,000 ft or SmokinEdge's 6,500 ft the ideal pull temperature is still below the boiling point.  At 7,000 ft the boiling point is below 200F where it can start to become an issue for an extended cook time.


Well, maybe it's a competition secret (or some teams might fudge the numbers).... but I judge in the Mountain West and two of the highest comps are Leadville, Colorado and Frisco, Colorado at 10,000'+ and 9,000' respectively.  The cooks I've visited with pay attention to the boiling temp of water at a particular competition.... *but base their pull temps on probe tenderness. * In Leadville for example a brisket will hit a second stall about 196°F.  In the next hour the decision on when to remove from the pit and into the hot box is based on probe tenderness because the internal temp might not budge.  The same team may cook at the American Royal (Kansas City) with the same meat and same technique and they see a second stall about 210°, but again they wait for the good feel.


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## noboundaries (Dec 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Yeah,, and??


Setting the three laws of thermodynamics aside, here's a simple explanation how sous vide works. 









						The Science Behind Sous Vide Cooking – And How To Explain It To Your Friends |
					

By: JOE HUGHES Sous vide cooking is much more than a trend; in 1974, French chef Georges Pralus was the first to use the technique in a fine dining setting. He prepared fois gras sous vide at his three-star Restaurant Troisgros after finding that gentle cooking preserved the size and shape of...



					sciencemeetsfood.org


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## civilsmoker (Dec 5, 2021)

There are many magic temps to smoke with.....

150 - peppers
180 - 20-30 heavy smoke steaks before sear..
225 Prime Rib and many other things if you have time....proof in the pudding general temp....
235, similar to above but better bark on shorter cooks, my new PR temp...
250, just a set above 235 for same treatment
275, ideal for reducing overall time and bark....ribs, PP, brisket all do really well at this temp and you don’t have to cook all night - max temp for sugar rubs...
295, quick non-sugar cooks, good bark...good for beef ribs (prime rib ones)
315, good to keep birds roasting with reduced skin browning
325, standard roasting birds...
335, better skin color and crispness on whole birds, my go to for whole....
350, good for roast rack of pork, because short cook and good caramelize for sugar rub, again short cook for sugar rub...
375, good for bird parts
395, even better bird parts for roasting BBQ style, smoker needs to be clean of grease or bad smelling stuff
425, Beef Wellington (should also add pulled pork, brisket, and turkey wellys too)....

this was just a quick brain dump on the perfect temp....to be honest I smoke at way more other temps than 225, because of the short descriptions above....  I have even gone to smoking prime ribs at 235 for a better bark with no reverse sear....


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## SmokinEdge (Dec 5, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> Setting the three laws of thermodynamics aside, here's a simple explanation how sous vide works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool.
but how does this change anything in this conversation?
Elevation would change this?


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## pineywoods (Dec 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Still matters not.
> My meat is fall off the bone at same IT as sea level. No difference.
> You people over think stuff, and create problems where there are none.
> What’s next? BBQ on the moon??? Who cares, it’s irrelevant.
> I’ve made chuck roast so mushy tender I didn’t want to eat it cooking at 135* in SV for 48 hours. How is that possible??? Good grief the fake news.



It may matter to some people
Does elevation change the boiling point of water? So 212 degrees isn't the same at sea level and at high elevation so if someone wants to take that into consideration in relation to smoker temps of finished internal temps of smoked items then that is up to them. If you choose not to that is up to you. Is your way right is their way right do what works for you. There is usually more than one way to do things and neither is right or wrong if it ends up correctly.


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## smokeymose (Dec 6, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Didn't read the whole thread but the only magic I can think of when dealing with 225F are the two following things:
> 
> 
> Meat in the smoker doesn't really want to go higher than 15F degrees below the smoker temp.  So at 225F smoker temp you can get meat to 210F internal temp (IT) before it wants to really resist rising in temp.  This means you can do any kind of BBQ and hit an IT.... but 225F will still take a looooooong time to get it there when often not necessary.
> ...


I use brown sugar in my pork rub and never noticed any burnt. Maybe I've just been lucky.....


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## Bearcarver (Dec 6, 2021)

LOL---Nothing special about 225°.
226° will do just fine.

Just kidding!!!
Actually once you get the hang of it, you can use whatever Temp you want, as long as it gets you there safely.
My Prime Ribs are the only things I go below, to 220°, because I want them slower, and I don't inject or probe too early, so they'll be safe too.
Then when you get to curing the meat first, you can use temps of 130° or lower, right down to no heat at all for smoking Bacon, as long as you fry it before you eat it.

Bear


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## tallbm (Dec 6, 2021)

smokeymose said:


> I use brown sugar in my pork rub and never noticed any burnt. Maybe I've just been lucky.....


I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure.  I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.



 civilsmoker
 just posted a list of temps and 275F was the max for sugar.
Maybe someone will do a "for science" test and smoke something with sugar in the rub at 275F+ and see what happens haha.  Or just put sugar in separately so they don't ruin any meat.

It's a non-issue for me since I don't use sugar and BBQ sauce is put on while at the table 99% of the time when I make BBQ.
I do love to know things like this though :D


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## PulledPorkSandwich (Dec 6, 2021)

My experience has been that 225 is too low for pork shoulders or brisket.  For example, I aim for 200-203 IT on a brisket and when I set the box temp at 225, it takes over 24 hours, sometimes over 30, to get to 200.  By then the brisket is dry.  The same thing happens with a pork shoulder, although I aim a bit lower IT for it.

When I adjusted my box temp to 250, my packer brisket was done in about 16 hours and was moist, tender, and delicious.

I'm probably doing something wrong -- maybe I should aim for a lower IT -- since others have good luck with 225, but I will say I calibrated my thermometer using ice water and boiling water and both the IT and box probes were spot on.  I also check for probe tenderness before I pull my meat.


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## smokeymose (Dec 6, 2021)

tallbm said:


> I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure.  I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's always the possibility that I like the flavor of "toasted" sugar and just never realized it


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## civilsmoker (Dec 6, 2021)

tallbm said:


> I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure.  I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I should clarify.....for a longer cook, over 275 will burn the sugar, ie turn black and bitter.  Short cooks its good at 275 or even higher.  IE I even put a "dusting" of sugar on my prime rib roasts, it helps with crust formation.  I even put it on steaks.  Many commercial steak rubs add sugar as well.  I put a sugar based rub on rack of pork and cook it at 350- 375 but its is only being cooked to IT of 140 so short but you get the crust as though it has been in smoking for 4-6 hours...  275 and a sugar based rub on pork ribs is a bark maker of tastyness!  Same with rib tips...275 makes them less dry with the desired bark....


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## DougE (Dec 6, 2021)

I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.


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## civilsmoker (Dec 6, 2021)

DougE said:


> I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.


Yup you right on the high side but still ok, much higher an it will start to burn....when I say 275, I'm assuming a plus/minus range as happens with smoking...


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## Torch&Tone (Dec 6, 2021)

1) Every smoker will have some amount of temperature variance, both over time and exact location within the chamber. Even the fanciest probe is only giving you an approximation of what the food, as a whole, is getting exposed to. Precision (keeping the temperature within a smaller range, even if the average is a bit off) matters more to me than accuracy (hitting that average temperature right on the nose but having wild temperature swings while doing so).
2) If the food surface temp is still relatively low, it will help keep any sugar that is in close contact from burning. Chamber temp can be 300 or more, but the sugar, itself, might not burn as long as the meat surface lags below the char temp. If you want to use a sugar-heavy treatment _and_ high temps... I dunno, one could get an IR temp scanner and either drop the heat or pull the meat based on the surface getting close to burnt?
3) Smoke absorption is not linear over time, but depends also on temperature, moisture, and a bunch of other chemistry variables. My understanding is that most of it happens relatively early on.


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## Torch&Tone (Dec 6, 2021)

As for the whole boiling point question, I think it only matters for when you wrap (which you can track - though not predict? - by IT, anyway) and also are... shall we say, _extremely detail-oriented_?
A) Regardless of boiling point, you're losing moisture through evaporation at any temperature above the dewpoint. The higher above dewpoint, the greater the rate of evaporation, but the shorter the timeline for moisture to migrate from the deeper inside the meat up to the surface. (It used to be common practice to sear a steak first and then bring it up to IT in the belief that this "sealed in" moisture, but experiment has shown this to be false.)
B) The only thing special about the boiling point: all additional energy (heat) provided to the meat goes into converting available (at, or near enough to, the surface) liquid water into steam. Unlike at sub-BP-temps, the food won't get any hotter - and may even dip slightly - until there is no more available liquid water. At the risk of oversimplifying an important topic (!), this is part of the basis behind the stall.
C) Higher elevation might bring on the stall sooner during the cook, but this probably only matters if you're trying to figure out exactly when to wrap it, if that's your plan? Regardless of cooking down by the seashore or on top of a mountain, the stall ends when evaporative cooling ends, which is determined by the amount of available liquid, not the particular time in the cook at which it boils.


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## thirdeye (Dec 6, 2021)

DougE said:


> I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.





Torch&Tone said:


> If the food surface temp is still relatively low, it will help keep any sugar that is in close contact from burning.


We're covering a lot of bases in this thread.... which is GREAT.  I'm curious who uses turbinado sugar or demerara sugar in their rubs.  Chris from Dizzy Pig is the one that introduced it to me because they can handle higher temps, and have slightly unique flavors. Dizzy Dust has been a favorite of mine since day 1. 



Torch&Tone said:


> A) Regardless of boiling point, you're losing moisture through evaporation at any temperature above the dewpoint. The higher above dewpoint, the greater the rate of evaporation, but the shorter the timeline for moisture to migrate from the deeper inside the meat up to the surface. (It used to be common practice to sear a steak first and then bring it up to IT in the belief that this "sealed in" moisture, but experiment has shown this to be false.)
> B) The only thing special about the boiling point: all additional energy (heat) provided to the meat goes into converting available (at, or near enough to, the surface) liquid water into steam. Unlike at sub-BP-temps, the food won't get any hotter - and may even dip slightly - until there is no more available liquid water. At the risk of oversimplifying an important topic (!), this is part of the basis behind the stall.
> C) Higher elevation might bring on the stall sooner during the cook, but this probably only matters if you're trying to figure out exactly when to wrap it, if that's your plan? Regardless of cooking down by the seashore or on top of a mountain, the stall ends when evaporative cooling ends, which is determined by the amount of available liquid, not the particular time in the cook at which it boils.



I was wondering if 'dewpoint' would make an appearance in this discussion.

Earlier I mentioned the competition cooks take on elevation.  Some use terms that can be misleading regarding the 'stall'.  The early stall (or plateau) refers to the pause in the internal temperature rise, that eventually 'breaks out' and the meat rises to the target internal temp.  The term 'stall out' refers to a second stall, which is a temperature often close the boiling point, that the meat will not exceed (or remain at for hours).  When a cook determines, a brisket for example, has 'stalled out', they monitor probe tenderness for up to an hour, then move to a hot box. The majority of briskets are wrapped, and at high altitude, more liquid is used.


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## yankee2bbq (Dec 6, 2021)

I use turbinado sugar in my rubs. Because the burn point is higher than that of other sugars.  Which was covered already.


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## TNJAKE (Dec 6, 2021)

Another turbinado user here. Has a much better flavor than white or brown sugar


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## xbubblehead (Dec 6, 2021)

After reading these posts it seems the best way to preserve moisture in a "stalled out" cook is to wrap until an acceptable tenderness is reached.  I currently use a double wrap of parchment paper, I'm sure there is some controversy there, and test for tenderness after a time based on the size of the roast.


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## tallbm (Dec 7, 2021)

xbubblehead said:


> After reading these posts it seems the best way to preserve moisture in a "stalled out" cook is to wrap until an acceptable tenderness is reached.  I currently use a double wrap of parchment paper, I'm sure there is some controversy there, and test for tenderness after a time based on the size of the roast.



Another approach that is counter intuitive, is that if you cook at a higher temp you get through the stall faster then at a lower temp.

No matter what on these stalling meats (pork butt, brisket, etc.) they will only be done when they are tender.  Never by time or temp.  The IT of the meat will tell you when to check for tenderness :)

I don't wrap any of my whole packer briskets or pork butts.  I just plan to let them stall AND I cook at them at 275F smoker temp.  With my super stead and efficient smoker I plan on about 1hr 5-10min per pound and then +4hrs to that total.
My setup is set and forget so I start at the appropriate time and let the meat thermometer alarms tell me when to check for tenderness.  

All of these smokes go overnight so I sleep like a baby unless one of the alarms (meat's done, smoker got too hot/pellet flame up, or smoker got too cold - breaker flip or smoker failure).

Once you nail a naked hotter smoked brisket or pork butt you may be like many of us and never wrap again.  The unwrapped flavor is mind blowing to me :)


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## masssmoke (Dec 8, 2021)

this thread is an interesting read, lots of good info.  I am surprised to hear how many smoke ribs are what seem to me like high temps.  I usually stick to 225 on my pellet and i know that it fluctuates like all pellet smokers but using a separate temp guage I know that the temp fluctuations are not that bad.  But my concern with going higher like 275 is that the ribs won't end up both tender and just short of fall of the bone (which takes time) and not dry (which i have had problems with on my pellet).  I feel like at a higher temp I would get ribs where there would not be a clean bone after eating.  
I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender.  If you smoke at a higher temp won't it power past the temp range that makes it tender?  Maybe the diff of 275 from 225 isn't enough to matter in that sense

I guess I just gotta try a hot and fast one time and see!


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## thirdeye (Dec 8, 2021)

masssmoke said:


> I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender.



Well,  I'm not young enough to know everything.... but there is some substance to this philosophy. And in addition to the advantages you mentioned,  lower pit temps give you a bigger window to tend to other things during the afternoon.


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## tallbm (Dec 8, 2021)

masssmoke said:


> this thread is an interesting read, lots of good info.  I am surprised to hear how many smoke ribs are what seem to me like high temps.  I usually stick to 225 on my pellet and i know that it fluctuates like all pellet smokers but using a separate temp guage I know that the temp fluctuations are not that bad.  But my concern with going higher like 275 is that the ribs won't end up both tender and just short of fall of the bone (which takes time) and not dry (which i have had problems with on my pellet).  I feel like at a higher temp I would get ribs where there would not be a clean bone after eating.
> I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender.  If you smoke at a higher temp won't it power past the temp range that makes it tender?  Maybe the diff of 275 from 225 isn't enough to matter in that sense
> 
> I guess I just gotta try a hot and fast one time and see!



Ribs are one of the cuts that don't care what temp you smoke them at.  If you do 275F and you cook the ribs to an Internal Temp of about 198-200F they will be tender, juice, and everything you want.  They are actually quite simple.  People make good ribs in spite of all the steps of their process.

Doing this you can nail pork spare or baby back ribs no matter the temp you smoke as long as they get that hot :D


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## noboundaries (Dec 8, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> lower pit temps give you a bigger window to tend to other things during the afternoon.



Temperature and cooking time have an inverse relationship. Low temp, longer time. Higher temp, shorter time. Low temps extend the window when something is done. Once again, it's the physics of heat transfer. There's chemistry involved, too (Maillard Reaction for one), but it isn't much of a concern unless you're using sugar or need meat browned.

A rack of spareribs, for example, will go thru the same cooking processes regardless of the safe temperature used. I literally determine what chamber or oven temp I'm going to use based on how much time I have. Temp is like the accelerator on a vehicle. The higher temp, the faster the cook/smoke will go, and visa versa. I often start slow and later crank up the temp. The result tastes the same. I don't like cooking to a clock, so often start and finish early.

What works for one cut of meat though, very likely won't work for another. Spareribs and baby backs are an example. They are close, but the leaner meat on the baby backs can't be treated exactly the same as the fattier meat of the spareribs. Different muscles on the same animal also cannot be treated the same. Ribeyes and briskets are just one example.

Cookbooks, recipes, and training programs will have us believe there is a specific way to smoke/cook something. Nope. A recipe is ONE successful way to do something for that author, but it does so at the expense of instinct. My wife can only cook by recipe. Period. I'm self-taught using recipes, but often find them lacking flavor or using ingredients I don't like or have any desire to purchase. Now I use recipes for ideas, then put my own processes and ingredients together. I do this for all types of cooking, including baking.

Developing and expanding your own processes and instincts is as fun to me as eating a delicious result. It allows creativity in the kitchen, smoker, and on the grill.


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## daveomak (Dec 9, 2021)

My interpretation of the 225F temp, when smoking non cured whole muscle meats is.....
225F is a temperature that will kill any and all bacteria and pathogens on the surface of the meat...  
The step used when cooking a prime rib, as an example, kill the bacteria and then lower the oven temp to finish the cook to 120 ish internal temp....


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## Torch&Tone (Dec 9, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> it's the physics of heat transfer. There's chemistry involved, too (Maillard Reaction for one), but it isn't much of a concern


Physics is only heating it up, chemistry is the flavor & texture that result, a.k.a. why the heating-it-up part matters! Just kidding, all the science is neat.


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## thirdeye (Dec 9, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> Temp is like the accelerator on a vehicle. The higher temp, the faster the cook/smoke will go, and visa versa.
> 
> A recipe is ONE successful way to do something for that author, but it does so at the expense of instinct. My wife can only cook by recipe. Period. I'm self-taught using recipes, but often find them lacking flavor or using ingredients I don't like or have any desire to purchase.


If temperature is like an accelerator, wouldn't the finished product be like an odometer reading?  In other words, a specific temperature over time often results in an end result that may have a nice appearance, color, flavor and texture..... and once we figure out the combination of variables, we tend to hover around that sweet spot.  This brings us to a barbecue trend in the last 10 years of so of cooking hot-n-fast instead of low-n-slow. Hot-n-fast works but the window of perfection is very small.  For example, team Blues Hog won whole pork shoulder at the last Memphis In May competition and I was told the total cook time was around 6 hours, and this is for a 20# shoulder that I would cook 18 hours or longer. 

Recipes are a great starting point, but I think it's better to learn technique.  With a recipe you can make one dish well.   If you know technique..... you can create many recipes.


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## noboundaries (Dec 9, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> If temperature is like an accelerator, wouldn't the finished product be like an odometer reading?  In other words, a specific temperature over time often results in an end result that may have a nice appearance, color, flavor and texture..... and once we figure out the combination of variables, we tend to hover around that sweet spot.  This brings us to a barbecue trend in the last 10 years of so of cooking hot-n-fast instead of low-n-slow. Hot-n-fast works but the window of perfection is very small.  For example, team Blues Hog won whole pork shoulder at the last Memphis In May competition and I was told the total cook time was around 6 hours, and this is for a 20# shoulder that I would cook 18 hours or longer.
> 
> Recipes are a great starting point, but I think it's better to learn technique.  With a recipe you can make one dish well.   If you know technique..... you can create many recipes.



 I agree with every word!


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## smokeymose (Dec 9, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> Cookbooks, recipes, and training programs will have us believe there is a specific way to smoke/cook something. Nope.


Hear! Hear!


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## civilsmoker (Dec 9, 2021)

thirdeye said:


> If temperature is like an accelerator, wouldn't the finished product be like an odometer reading?  In other words, a specific temperature over time often results in an end result that may have a nice appearance, color, flavor and texture..... and once we figure out the combination of variables, we tend to hover around that sweet spot.  This brings us to a barbecue trend in the last 10 years of so of cooking hot-n-fast instead of low-n-slow. Hot-n-fast works but the window of perfection is very small.  For example, team Blues Hog won whole pork shoulder at the last Memphis In May competition and I was told the total cook time was around 6 hours, and this is for a 20# shoulder that I would cook 18 hours or longer.
> 
> Recipes are a great starting point, but I think it's better to learn technique.  With a recipe you can make one dish well.   If you know technique..... you can create many recipes.



Over the past few years I have moved to a moderate hot-n-fast for many proteins and have found its easier to get repeat results and much better timing which again yields a better meal will things served and the perfect time.....for example starting a butt or brisket before I start work and then have it for dinner.......It means having it more because I don't have time for a 16 to 18 smoke....


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## noboundaries (Feb 17, 2022)

Pork butts can be cooked at ANY friggin' temp, especially if there's no sugar in the rub. Here's proof.

I took a 12.89 lb butt out of the freezer Sunday morning (yes, you read that correctly. 12.89 lbs, one bone-in pork butt). I threw it into a cooler with water and ice to thaw. My intentions were to cook it Monday night with 4 hrs in the Kettle and an overnight finish in the oven at 250F (my WSM is out of commission right now mimicking a petri dish). Well, that plan flew out the window when a non-covid bug flew in on Monday.

Wednesday morning I got up at 0630. Set the oven at 375F. Trimmed the fat, seasoned it with Pappy's Low Salt and McCormick Taco seasoning. The butt filled a 9x13 aluminum pan. Double panned and placed it in a 15" paella pan with handles just to make it easy to handle and move in and out of the oven. Tossed it in the oven uncovered and went back to sleep.

Checked the Internal temp at 5 hours. 188°F. An hour and 15 minutes later, 205°F and probed tender in 90% of the roast. Took it out of the oven, vented the oven heat into the house, wrapped the panned roast in foil, then set it back in the oven at 170F for 4 hours.

Juicy, tender, and delicious dinner Wednesday night. That's the fastest I've ever cooked a butt of ANY size, especially a Godzilla like this one.

Butts don't care what temp you use. Going to do the next one in the Kettle at high temp since it worked so well in the oven.


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## GrumpyGriller (Feb 17, 2022)

Lots of great (and science-based) comments so far.  I have done 225 for briskets, butts, and other proteins as well, initially because my pellet grill has Super Smoke up until that pit temp.  That being said, I've finally started to cook at whatever temps makes sense for what I am making because I use 1 or 2 smoke tubes that likely do more than the SS feature.  I've only been doing this for a relatively short time (compared with many on this forum), but as long as we keep the 4-hour rule in mind, play with it and see what works best for you and your equipment.


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