# high temp smoking ?



## cal1956

i just got to wondering with so many of you fellas smoking ribs and such at such high temps , why do you even bother using a smoker ? why not just grill em ? hell at some temps I have read about you might be just as well off frying them and adding a little bottled smoke to em .

I mean think about it . using a smoker is a lot of trouble when your just basically baking things at those temps  , just seems to me at those temps the outside of the meat would cook so fast as to not absorb any smoke at all, plus get tough as shoe leather

just wondering , not my intent to step on anyone's toes here


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## jcbigler

Grilling at a low temp (also called high temp smoking) at 350-400 degrees is a lot different from grilling at 600-700 degrees.


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## cal1956

JCBigler said:


> Grilling at a low temp (also called high temp smoking) at 350-400 degrees is a lot different from grilling at 600-700 degrees.


i beg to differ , at  350-400 degrees your waaay past smoking  ...your baking !!!


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## mdboatbum

Cal, have you tried higher heat smoking and found the results to be unsatisfactory?


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## bmaddox

Mdboatbum said:


> Cal, have you tried higher heat smoking and found the results to be unsatisfactory?


Perfect question.

I personally have tried high temp smoking and love it. The meat takes on the same amount of smoke flavor but has a much better texture.


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## cal1956

no , I prefer my meat smoked, if I wanted baked or fried meat I have a kitchen for that ......lots less trouble when I want it that way


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## mdboatbum

cal1956 said:


> no , I prefer my meat smoked, if I wanted baked or fried meat I have a kitchen for that ......lots less trouble when I want it that way



Seems like a lot of trouble to start a whole thread just to bash something you've never even tried. Its also kind of insulting to the growing number of members here who are getting amazing results using higher heat. 
Maybe try asking and discussing in the future, rather than mocking and belittling. You might find folks a little more receptive.


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## cal1956

sorry if I stepped on someone toes ,

however I honestly don't understand how anyone can consider it smoking at these high temps

 smoking meat has always been and always will be ...... low and slow


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## mdboatbum

cal1956 said:


> sorry if I stepped on someone toes ,
> however I honestly don't understand how anyone can consider it smoking at these high temps
> smoking meat has always been and always will be ...... low and slow



If you don't understand, just ask. Nicely. Smoking and low and slow are not necessarily tied together. Nothing wrong with low and slow, but it's not the only way. You can, in fact, get great smoke penetration (even a smoke ring), compete breakdown of connective tissue and a wonderful outer crust at temperatures in excess of 300°. In addition, the time is cut by half or more, and the meat loses less moisture. Imagine a rack of ribs smoked to tender perfection with less than an eighth of an inch of pullback from the bone. 












image.jpg



__ mdboatbum
__ Aug 14, 2015





Ribs done at 300°. No pullback, no leathery exterior and perfectly tender meat.












image.jpg



__ mdboatbum
__ Aug 14, 2015


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## tumbleweed1

I'm one of the hot & fast crowd myself, generally.

I've never had a problem with smoke penetration, dryness or toughness.

Works for me.

TW


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## mdboatbum

Pulled pork at 300°












image.jpg



__ mdboatbum
__ Aug 14, 2015


















image.jpg



__ mdboatbum
__ Aug 14, 2015





It was tender, smokey and had a nice crisp exterior.


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## cal1956

well to start with , the "smoke ring " has nothing to do with smoke !!!

2nd, I know anyone can cook at high temps, the thing about it for me is : how can you call it smoking at those temps

isn't that why we have ovens ?

3rd , its simply gotta taste different than smoking


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## mdboatbum

cal1956 said:


> well to start with , the "smoke ring " has nothing to do with smoke !!!
> 2nd, I know anyone can cook at high temps, the thing about it for me is : how can you call it smoking at those temps
> isn't that why we have ovens ?
> 3rd , its simply gotta taste different than smoking


Ok. I'm completely without words as to your thoughts on the smoke ring. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but I can't. So maybe you can explain that one. 
2nd- I don't understand the disconnect between higher heat and smoking. The meat is going through the same physical transformation, the smoke is coating and penetrating--it's just happening faster. Just because it's always been low and slow doesn't mean the same results can't be achieved via a different route. By your reasoning, since traditionally meat has always been smoked via burning wood, cooking with gas isn't smoking either. You're just baking at a really low temperature in a gas oven. Yet you insist on calling it smoking. 
3rd- Yes I suppose it does taste different. Less moisture is lost and more fat is rendered, resulting in meat that is moist, tender and not quite as fatty.  

Honestly I don't care if you believe me or not, but I do suggest you try it once just to bolster your argument. I've done quite a bit of smoking at 225°, and quite a bit at 300° and up, so I feel like I'm justified in making the statements I've made. It may all come down to a matter of personal taste. You may prefer the lower temps after all. But until you've tried higher temp smoking, I fail to see why you argue so vehemently against it.


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## cal1956

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/smoke-ring-formation

it just fails the common sense test .

at high temps the outside of the meat caramelizes and stops any smoke penetration , it would seem reasonable then

that your just smoking for the sake of smoking , nothing wrong with doing that , hell I myself do a finishing smoke not for the meat

but just because I like to smell the smoke , it doesn't do a dang thing for the meat at that point for the same reasons I just gave

but smoking in the beginning at low temps does give the smoke a fighting chance to penetrate the meat

and as far s me not trying it before commenting on it : I can flap my arms like a bird does, but that doesn't mean I have to jump

off of a cliff to know that i can't fly

little thing called common sense tells me that !!!!


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## sawinredneck

I'm a low and slow guy myself, but.....
After two hours the meat isn't absorbing any more flavor, I'm hearing more and mor people winning comps using this method, research Gateway drum smokers if you don't believe me, and sometimes you just gotta get stuff cooked to feed the family!
But there are things I just don't hurry, I like to cook brisket around 220, that's just the way I like it, but I won't think twice about hurrying up some wings to make my ten year old happy! I always cringe watching the BBQ shows and hearing them talking about cranking up brisket to 325 and up. But just because that's what I like doesn't mean I won't eat something new!


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## cal1956

sawinredneck said:


> I'm a low and slow guy myself, but.....
> After two hours the meat isn't absorbing any more flavor, I'm hearing more and mor people winning comps using this method, research Gateway drum smokers if you don't believe me, and sometimes you just gotta get stuff cooked to feed the family!
> But there are things I just don't hurry, I like to cook brisket around 220, that's just the way I like it, but I won't think twice about hurrying up some wings to make my ten year old happy! I always cringe watching the BBQ shows and hearing them talking about cranking up brisket to 325 and up. But just because that's what I like doesn't mean I won't eat something new!


I totally agree that after 2 hours , your just wasting smoke ...hell I myself don't add anymore wood after the 1st hour  ( except like i said for the finishing smoke for my benefit ) not the meats

benefit .

but it just seems to me that folks that hurry with these high temps are missing out on good quality smoked meat,

there is a reason we go low and slow ...it just tastes better !!!!


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## mdboatbum

Well Cal, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hope you took this little debate in the nature in which it was intended. I meant no personal attack or disrespect. I think this discussion is a great thing. It sheds a little light on the hot and fast versus low and slow debate. We're not the first, nor will we be the last, to argue over this. By a long shot. 
I do wish you'd try hot and fast just once so you can see those of us on that side of the fence aren't crazy. 
One other benefit I forgot to mention is the fact that it's much easier to maintain a clean fire. Once my pit gets above 285°-300° the smoke clears to thin blue. And, as you so eloquently stated, it won't absorb any after a certain point, so my initial load of chunks will see me through. No point in wasting smoke after the first 4-5 hours. Of course my meat will be either done or nearly done by that point anyway.


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## cal1956

well maybe at least now you know that the smoke ring is not caused by smoke so maybe some good came from it

 40 years doing this, tells me I'm doing it right !!!!


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## mdboatbum

Lol. The smoke ring is caused by the byproducts of wood combustion reacting with the myoglobin in the meat. The byproduct of wood combustion? Smoke. 
In other words? No smoke no smoke ring. Yes there are instances where there is smoke and no smoke ring, and yes there are instances where a smoke ring can be faked without smoke. But to say the smoke ring has nothing to do with smoke is just plain....Well again, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## mdboatbum

Just out of curiosity, what the hell do you believe causes a smoke ring?


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## noboundaries

Ribs I still do low and slow, 250ish. 

Everything else hot n fast.  Gets done quickly, has great smoke flavor, tender and juicy.


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## cal1956

wrong !!! I have gotten a smoke ring in an electric oven ...looks exactly like the one we get in a smoker


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## mdboatbum

cal1956 said:


> wrong !!! I have gotten a smoke ring in an electric oven ...looks exactly like the one we get in a smoker


Please elaborate. Was there perhaps cure involved? Cherry jello? You may have gotten a red layer, but it wasn't a smoke ring. If there was a crushed up charcoal briquette involved, it was, in fact a smoke ring.


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## cal1956

it was none of those , and no I won't tell . I will tell anyone how I cook anything , what I won't do is tell  the ingredients


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## worktogthr

I am just going to weigh in here and say that I have noticed that Cal enjoys posting things that are going to annoy many members of the forum and then when they respond reasonably, he is rude and disrespectful.  Check out his thread about how smoking with electric is not smoking .  It seems that he is the authority on what is and what is not in this hobby, at least he thinks so.    Don't bother giving this delusional fellow your knowledge and expertise because he is unwilling to accept anything that he hasn't dreamed up himself.  This is supposed to be a forum that encourages people to try new things when it comes to smoking, he'd rather just keep bragging about how his way is the only way and mocking those who don't fall in line with his often inaccurate ramblings.  That's all I have to say about that.


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## cal1956

i am old school , can't  argue that !!!

 and what really irritates me is when a newbee  asks how to make something simple like a cup of black coffee for example

then 101 people will try to convince him that he need's a calculator , a caulk board , and a collage degree in physics just to do something sooo simple

 folks  I thought this was about smoking meat , not becoming a 5 star French chef !!!

smoking meat is simple ...a monkey can do it .  most of the time that's all they want ...a simple answer

and if I'm wrong for saying what I think, then so be it


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## jarjarchef

So, I am not a scientist nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. So I really don't have a leg to stand on about the scientific answer to the smoke ring. But I do know that diffrent meats, woods and smokers will get diffrent results. I'll leave that at that......

Now for some of the other issues brought up.

As someone who is classically trained in cooking. I do not see anyone who is trying to push the classical cooking methods with their answers. I will see things that are close, but not classical.

As for the recieving 101 answers for a "simple question". Well I have always been told and support there are more way to do things than just one way. So getting to see many options and pick which way they want to try,  is a good thing. As for someone giving a very detailed answer "on how to make a cup of coffee", that is simple. In the 2 plus decades I have worked in proffesional kitchen and the 4 plus decades I have been walking this earth, I have learned that everyone learns diffrently.  Some are gifted and can pick things up in cooking very easily, some not so easily. I have had interns work for me that are coming from the best culinary schools in the country, they know the book and all the theories behind cooking. But you put them in the kitchen, they don't get the application of what they know. So to judge anyone on their skill level in anything without walking in their shoes, well is just silly. I tell all my interns and Team members, if you ever feel like you know everything about cooking and you can not learn anything else, you need to quit and find another career. Because things are always changing and there is always new things to learn.

So the hot and fast vs. low and slow subject...... I personally cook diffrent things at diffrent temps. Personally I prefer the middle of the road on my temps, I am usually 250° - 275° range for most pork items. I find it pushes through the stall zone faster. The main reason for me I see hot and fast is gaining momentum is consistency and what they see on BBQ shows. The quality of the product is subjective to the pitmaster, so I'll leave that alone. I am not sure the experience anyone reading has had with comps or feeding on a time line for paying guests. Cooking at 225° you do not have a good idea when things will be done. We have all seen or had the 10hr stall. You can't deal with that type of uncertainty in comps or in commercial kitchens. So over time people are adjusting their methods to control this issue. Then people see it on tv and say hey why not try it. Then they get results they like, so they continue to do it. They evolve their methods....... I am not too sure about the hot and fast, but I will try it, if for nothing else other than to try it and maybe learn something new.

For me smoking is a way to impart a flavor just like the rub, brine, injection or anything else someone does with their meat. So the temp is really a personal matter to deal with.

I understand that sometimes there are very simple questions, belive me I have had my times I have wondered why they are asking what they are. But things in cooking come to me very easily, sometimes too easily.  So my peers say...... but I chose to either answer or not answer the question.  But no matter what I keep in mind, the question is important to them and they had the courage to put themself out there and ask. Because there are usually another dozen or so that don't ask. For those that answer, it is simple, they are trying to share what they know.

So I challenge anyone who has experience to share your knowledge and keep things in a positive light. I also challenge those with knowledge and experience to keep your eyes and minds open, you just may learn something new...

Jeramy


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## bmaddox

Man I didn't check this thread for a few days and it got way out of hand. @cal1956  why does it even matter to you? At the end of the day, all that matters is that people are cooking food to their own taste to feed themselves and their families. Time to get off the high horse of low and slow and have enough respect for the other members of this forum to not bash them for simply turning the temp up a little. I am sure you yourself use many cooking techniques that have evolved over the years (unless you bake in a wood fired oven and cook over an open flame). 

These two butts were cooked at 300. Took 45 minutes per pound, had an amazing smoke flavor, great bark, and more moisture than any previous smokes at 225. 













IMG_1602.JPG



__ bmaddox
__ Apr 13, 2015


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## tumbleweed1

bmaddox said:


> Man I didn't check this thread for a few days and it got way out of hand. @cal1956  why does it even matter to you? At the end of the day, all that matters is that people are cooking food to their own taste to feed themselves and their families. Time to get off the high horse of low and slow and have enough respect for the other members of this forum to not bash them for simply turning the temp up a little. I am sure you yourself use many cooking techniques that have evolved over the years (unless you bake in a wood fired oven and cook over an open flame).
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> These two butts were cooked at 300. Took 45 minutes per pound, had an amazing smoke flavor, great bark, and more moisture than any previous smokes at 225.
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> __ Apr 13, 2015


Yep, 275 here (just a little over & hour per pound) & I wouldn't change a thing.













Pork Butt 9- 181 degrees.jpg



__ tumbleweed1
__ Aug 17, 2015


















Pork Butt 12- shredded.jpg



__ tumbleweed1
__ Aug 17, 2015






TW


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## dirtsailor2003

My opinion is if you're adding flavored smoke to your cooking process, you are smoking the food. Wether it be low and slow, hot and fast, cold, in a stove top smoke box, a cardboard box, in a centrifuge, on the ISS, you are smoking your food. 

Now if you are using liquid smoke, that is not smoking. 

I am open to all styles of cooking and like thinking outside the box. it's just like building a boat there's many different methods there's no right or wrong way it all depends on what you need for a finished product. 

I unlike some I have tried my product side by side, low and slow and hot and fast. Both delicious, smokey and those served couldn't determine which was which. So for me I will tend to lean towards the faster approach.


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## noboundaries

Due to this thread I'm going to try hot n fast spare ribs on my smoker.  That's how I used to do them on my gas grill.  Went to low n slow in my smoker just because it was so easy and six hours isn't that long a smoke. 

Hot n fast has worked for me for pulled pork, chuckies, poultry (always), and now brisket points.  Might as well try adding pork ribs to that lineup.  I mean hell, I used to be a jet pilot, hot n fast just comes natural!


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## for-q cookers

cal1956 said:


> sorry if I stepped on someone toes ,
> 
> however I honestly don't understand how anyone can consider it smoking at these high temps
> 
> smoking meat has always been and always will be ...... low and slow


I don't cook at super high temperatures, but, I do cook at elevated temps, sometimes as high as 325.... When cooking, especially in a competitive event, you have a set number of hours to get all your entries done and readied for turn in at specific times. This means that you have several types of meat on the grill at the same time and the all have to be done in succession, so timing is essential. On a timed cook, you really only have a couple of variables to contend with, one being temperature. I agree that low and slow is a good way to cook if you are sitting in the yard drinking beer and relaxing. A few friends and myself did that Saturday... Put some ribs and a couple of loins on the pit at about 230 and drank beer and played horse shoes all day long, very relaxing and easy cook... all ya gotta do is throw a couple sticks on the fire every hour or so.  However, some folks like cooking hot and fast and honestly, It's an art form. You still get plenty of smoke on the meat, you get different texture on the meat, but you can still get very tender product that way too... The point of the story, if there is one, to each their own... There is no right or wrong way if you hit the flavors and internal temps you are looking for...


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## mdboatbum

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...er-pastrami-in-four-hours-with-bear-view/0_80

I forgot about this one. Pastrami done at 300°.


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## smoking jo

worktogthr said:


> I am just going to weigh in here and say that I have noticed that Cal enjoys posting things that are going to annoy many members of the forum and then when they respond reasonably, he is rude and disrespectful.


+1

I don't need a lecture telling me any other way than what he does is wrong.  Why not learn about various ways that we can all achieve the same result??


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## chef jimmyj

No more Smoke flavor after 1,2, or 4 hours?  Waste of wood? If meat only takes smoke flavor for a couple of hours then...Cold Smoking Bacon for 10 to 20 hours is a total waste of wood? Smoking Country Hams for 3 Days accomplishes nothing? Folks with Stick Burners should finish in the Oven?

Low and Slow is what some folks like and Hot and Fast suits others. You can get good results with both. How you smoke your meat is a personal preference and NO ONE has a lock on how to do it best...Ok, Myron Mixon makes a lot of money, he is a Hot and Fast Guy! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  So do a hell of a lot of Pro' Pitmaster's that stay up all night...

I have been a Chef over 20 years and taught, among other things, Food Science for 5 of those. I know how and why food cooks and what can be done to obtain various outcomes. I have owned and operated a Mecco Bullet Smoker (similar to a Brinkman), a New Braunfels Horizontal Offset Stick Burner and since becoming Disabled, bad knees, 2 MES40's with AMNPS. I have gotten great results with all of these smokers...Once I learned how to use them. I have smoked meat hot and fast and low and slow as the situation demanded. I have gone 100% in the smoker, have finished on a Grill and in an Oven. With regards to the " no more smoke flavor after 1-4 hours". The one thing I can say is, *The longer you make Smoke the more flavor you build.* This is in no way a condemnation of Hot and Fast. If you like the results and the smoke intensity you get, then you are making Great Q. This is my experience from a Test...

I can't remember how many Butt's I have smoked and have always believed..." IT'S A SMOKER...IF THERE IS MEAT IN THERE. YOU SHOULD BE MAKING SMOKE! " If you ain't makin' Smoke then you are just Babysitting an Oven...So, at a minimum when smoking a Butt, low and slow in my MES, I use a Full Load in the AMNPS and count on 10+ hours of that Sweet TBS to consistently Kiss My Butt...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  I was looking at smoking a pair of Butts as a Test to see if " I " have been Blowing Smoke or, the 4 hour folks are correct...

The result in the MES with AMNPS...I applied 4 hours of Smoke and removed the AMNPS then let the Butts ride 10 more hours at 250*F to an IT of 205°. The finished Butts had a beautiful Bark, pulled easily and were very juicy...BUT...They had NO WHERE NEAR the wonderful " Smokey Flavor " that I have come to love from Butts that luxuriate in 10+ hours of Thin Blue Smoke! They were ok but there was a noticeable difference and my Family thought them bland and they do not like Too Smokey...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Different smokers and various fuels generate different types, colors and concentrations of smoke and we know out comes will vary. It is important to Practice. Experiment and Learn your smoker to determine how much, how long and what type of Smoke you wish to apply to your meat. But remember, there is no validity to General statements like..." It won't take no more Smoke after 4 hours "... Here is how Smoke Happens...

Smoke is made up of Gasses, some containing Nitrogen, Particles of assorted chemicals, most of which have a pleasant flavor, and some Tars and Oils. As the meat is being smoked many of these Gasses dissolve into the meats surface moisture. Since in the early stages this moisture can move in and out of the outer 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the meats surface we get flavor from these Gasses and in a chemical reaction between the Nitrogen Gas and the Myoglobin, the stuff that makes meat Red and does NOT contain any Blood, we get a permanent color change from red to pink. A Smoke Ring! During this chemical reaction the smoke Particles start building on the surface of the meat. Since they are too big to penetrate very far, the particles only accumulate on the surface with some of the smaller ones being carried an extremely short distance in with the surface liquids. Bottom line is Smoke is made up of many chemicals and gasses. The Gasses can combine with the meat juices, it will Absorb Smoke, and enter the meat until about 140*F(approx. 4 hours at 225-250°F) when the muscle fibers contract to the point that very little passes in or out...BUT...The flavorful smoke Particles will continue to built up on the surface, in other words it will continue to " Take Smoke ", as long as smoke is being applied to the meat.

So, no more " Smoke Ring " penetration after 140*F but " Smoke Flavor " will keep building until you remove the meat from the Smoke...JJ


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## stickyfingers

Not trying to sound defensive or with attitude, but before saying that you should try it! It's still smoking just higher temp. Smoking is about indirect heat. Grilling is direct heat.


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## cats49er

If I put a piece of meat in my Lang smoker it does not matter if it is at 225 or 400 degrees .The meat is taking on smoke.The only way I can keep it from taking smoke is to wrap it.The meat is raw no crust,,bark or anything,so it takes smoke.And another thing, a lot of people don't like a heavy smoke flavor,they want just a hint of smoke.IMHO the smoke should enhance the meat not over power it. Really it does not matter how you cook as long as you like it and are happy with it. They always say there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## cats49er

Well stated  Chef  JimmyJ


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## golfpro2301

Sailor is right. Idc what temp you are at if you have any smoke going ypu are smoking the meat. I used to only do low and slow and now I mix it up because I have seen the results. Hell I have sone briskets at 400 that turned out great. Last thing I will mention is there are people trained to taste bbq meat. Right amount of smoke, not too much bark, tenderness etc... these are the ones that judge the competitions. Now look at Myron who has won more than anyone else and his smoker stays pegged between 300-350. I can also tell you the hot and fast is catching on quickly on the comp scene for 2 reasons. You dont have to stay up all night and the results are the same. I would highly recommend you trying it.


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## shelton573

I have always been a fan of the 225-250 range mainly because that's what the gas smoker held consistently.  Recently, I have been cooking things with the hot and fast method and I actually like it a lot better because I don't have to wake up at 3 in the morning to have things ready for a 6 pm party.  The other day I did 3 pork butts in 6 hrs.  It had great bark, awesome smoke ring and my neighbors said it was likely the best I have ever done.  If hot and fast isn't smoking and doesn't produce as good of meat, then I guess my brother and his competition partner have a trailer load of trophies and quite the bit of money to give back for "cheating" with high temps.  I will never bash either method because I like both.  My ribs get smoked at 225-250 and from now on butts and bigger cuts will be 275-300.  Just my 2 cents...

Shelton


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## inkjunkie

Mdboatbum said:


> cal1956 said:
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> sorry if I stepped on someone toes ,
> however I honestly don't understand how anyone can consider it smoking at these high temps
> smoking meat has always been and always will be ...... low and slow
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> If you don't understand, just ask. Nicely. Smoking and low and slow are not necessarily tied together. Nothing wrong with low and slow, but it's not the only way. You can, in fact, get great smoke penetration (even a smoke ring), compete breakdown of connective tissue and a wonderful outer crust at temperatures in excess of 300°. In addition, the time is cut by half or more, and the meat loses less moisture. Imagine a rack of ribs smoked to tender perfection with less than an eighth of an inch of pullback from the bone.
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> __ Aug 14, 2015
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> __ mdboatbum
> __ Aug 14, 2015
Click to expand...

Just wondering how does smoking ribs at 300* effect the time frame? I understand that time is not how to judge a cook...just wondering about the planning of a meal, time wise, aspect of things...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## dirtsailor2003

inkjunkie said:


> Just wondering how does smoking ribs at 300* effect the time frame? I understand that time is not how to judge a cook...just wondering about the planning of a meal, time wise, aspect of things...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



I haven't done them at 300, but have at 350 and it cuts the time down to 1 1/2-2 hours tops. So your saving a bunch of time.


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## mdboatbum

inkjunkie said:


> Just wondering how does smoking ribs at 300* effect the time frame? I understand that time is not how to judge a cook...just wondering about the planning of a meal, time wise, aspect of things...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Usually 2 1/2-3 hours plus the 1 hour rest @300°


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