# Anyone Use Star Anise for Curing Hams?



## tallbm (Nov 6, 2021)

Hello everyone.

I'm looking to wet cure two 12 pound pork shoulders to be holiday "hams".

I was curious if anyone ever puts any Star Anise in your cure/brine for hams.  I think it would be awesome but I can't find much info on how to use it in a brine like I plan to do.  I just want to add some to the cure but not overdo it.

I have 25 pounds of pork shoulder plus the water.  Besides the star anise it's pretty much cure #1, salt and sugar, so super simple.

Any input in this situation would be helpful as I am looking to prep this today or tomorrow to smoke next weekend.


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

Well, this is to taste kinda thing. But when I do holiday ham, I use pickling spice, slightly crushed, and 3-4 star anise in a gallon of water (pops brine kinda) I like anise but I error on the side of caution, but everyone’s taste is different. I grew up on biscochitos, basically a sugar cookie with cinnamon and anise. Here is about what I put in my 1 gallon brine slightly crushed, ymmv.


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## zwiller (Nov 6, 2021)

Not yet but plan on it.  I have brewed with with it and it's well known to be potent so use restraint.  Clove is the strongest/worst.  People have made Christmas beers that made their mouth numb    Holiday ham idea sounds GREAT and is like something I want to do.  I want to do a holiday spiced pineapple ham sausage of sorts.  With some hot pepper I think too.  

Anyhow, anise not listed in Marianki but clove is 1-2g per Kg.  Sounds about right but as 

 SmokinEdge
 says VERY subjective.  For me, BIG fan of orange peel mixed in my holiday spices.


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

zwiller said:


> Not yet but plan on it.  I have brewed with with it and it's well known to be potent so use restraint.  Clove is the strongest/worst.  People have made Christmas beers that made their mouth numb    Holiday ham idea sounds GREAT and is like something I want to do.  I want to do a holiday spiced pineapple ham sausage of sorts.  With some hot pepper I think too.
> 
> Anyhow, anise not listed in Marianki but clove is 1-2g per Kg.  Sounds about right but as
> 
> ...


One average star anise is about 2.0g water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon or 3.78kg. Then do the math. I agree with your 1-2g per Kg. Of brine. It works fine. I cut the clove to half that amount, but that’s me.


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## tallbm (Nov 6, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Well, this is to taste kinda thing. But when I do holiday ham, I use pickling spice, slightly crushed, and 3-4 star anise in a gallon of water (pops brine kinda) I like anise but I error on the side of caution, but everyone’s taste is different. I grew up on biscochitos, basically a sugar cookie with cinnamon and anise. Here is about what I put in my 1 gallon brine slightly crushed, ymmv.
> View attachment 515587





zwiller said:


> Not yet but plan on it.  I have brewed with with it and it's well known to be potent so use restraint.  Clove is the strongest/worst.  People have made Christmas beers that made their mouth numb    Holiday ham idea sounds GREAT and is like something I want to do.  I want to do a holiday spiced pineapple ham sausage of sorts.  With some hot pepper I think too.
> 
> Anyhow, anise not listed in Marianki but clove is 1-2g per Kg.  Sounds about right but as
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info guys, this is the kind of stuff I was looking for.

I just finished putting it all in the garage fridge to brine/cure until next weekend.

I did an equilibrium brine with all the proper measurments. I threw in 1 good sized star anise and 1 small clove. 
25pounds of meat and 2 gallons of water I figured are on the side of caution.  If no flavor is imparted then no big deal but there is no way to undo the flavor from those strong aromatics.

Oh, I also injected the crap out of the shoulders with the cure/brine solution so they will cure up in no time, easily in 6-7 days.


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

zwiller said:


> For me, BIG fan of orange peel mixed in my holiday spices.


Orange in spice is very solid in taste profile. For something different, I have found grapefruit to be very satisfying as well. I use it a lot in citrus marinades, it’s delicious. Food for thought.


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Nov 6, 2021)

Watch that stuff as it is strong.  I have had to toss a couple things using it.


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## chopsaw (Nov 6, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Any input in this situation would be helpful


Ok , you asked . My opinion is what ever flavor you are trying to impart needs to be in liquid form  for a 7 day soak . I will say I like the approach of starting " slow " to see what happens , but unless the star anise dissolves I don't think you will get much out of it . 
I use lemon extract in Pop's brine for poultry . Works great . 
I have Anise extract , but have not had a chance to use it yet . I have used Anise seed with cured pork loins  ( Dave's injection method ) The taste was there , but more on the surface . I think because the seed was whole , just mixed into the injection . 
Just my experience . I'll be watching for your results .


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> Ok , you asked . My opinion is what ever flavor you are trying to impart needs to be in liquid form  for a 7 day soak . I will say I like the approach of starting " slow " to see what happens , but unless the star anise dissolves I don't think you will get much out of it .
> I use lemon extract in Pop's brine for poultry . Works great .
> I have Anise extract , but have not had a chance to use it yet . I have used Anise seed with cured pork loins  ( Dave's injection method ) The taste was there , but more on the surface . I think because the seed was whole , just mixed into the injection .
> Just my experience . I'll be watching for your results .


I agree, however, anise star is a whole nother  animal.  Slightly crushed is up again and ground is it’s own flavor level. The husk or pod, packs some flavor.


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## zwiller (Nov 6, 2021)

First off let me say I LOVE these discussions but all this stuff is HIGHLY debatable.  My homebrewing has shed some light on this.  Extraction and potency of spices are a HUGE issue.  It is very romantic to think that MFR use spices but doubt it happens nowadays.  Modern distillation of spices (extracts) has really gone farther than we pull off at home.  IE 

 chopsaw
 Rich's use of lemon extract.  I seriously doubt using zest, juice, etc will compete with the results using an extract.


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## chopsaw (Nov 6, 2021)

Sam , I agree . I have a fair amount of testing on some of this , as do the rest of you . Makes this a great discussion.  I know the star anise is strong . That's one reason I haven't tried the extract yet and tried seeds first . Always start at a base line and go from there . I've also been using citric acid in some brats with good results .


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## indaswamp (Nov 6, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> I've also been using citric acid in some brats with good results .


I stumbled across the cure accelerator affect of citric acid some 12 years ago....quite by accident.  It also has anti-oxidizing properties. I use it in my smoke sausage when I can not let the meat paste sit overnight and need to smoke the same day. The color is almost as good....


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

Agree^^^^^^ above. To add to that, the freshness of your spice vs. mine may be different (as they age they lose potency) and the variety (non of us know) makes a big difference as well as the palette.


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## indaswamp (Nov 6, 2021)

..for anyone interested..0.1% is the recommended percentage of citric acid for a cure accelerator.


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## chopsaw (Nov 6, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> I stumbled across the cure accelerator affect of citric acid some 12 years ago....quite by accident.  It also has anti-oxidizing properties. I use it in my smoke sausage when I can not let the meat paste sit overnight and need to smoke the same day. The color is almost as good....


I have sodium erythorbate I use for that same thing . I have the citric acid because some of the sausage formulas I've made call for it . 
Edge , I agree with your comments .


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## indaswamp (Nov 6, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> I have sodium erythorbate I use for that same thing . I have the citric acid because some of the sausage formulas I've made call for it .
> Edge , I agree with your comments .


Cool. I am wondering why citric acid is used in a fresh sausage brat recipe? antioxidant maybe?


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 6, 2021)

I use erythorbate at 0.05% can stuff and smoke, but I prefer a nights rest, it’s just better, but the erythorbate fixes the color very nice accelerates the cure and preserves the flavor in the freezer. I use it in most all my sausages.


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## zwiller (Nov 7, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Cool. I am wondering why citric acid is used in a fresh sausage brat recipe? antioxidant maybe?


I think yes partly but also for flavor.  A little acidity helps the flavor of many foods.  It's one of my secret weapons but is a little dangerous since as you say it accelerates cure.


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Nov 7, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> I use lemon extract in Pop's brine for poultry . Works great .


Thats why I bought that lemon extract.  Had forgot why I had it.


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## chopsaw (Nov 7, 2021)

BrianGSDTexoma said:


> Thats why I bought that lemon extract. Had forgot why I had it.


Brian , I figured out through some  " field testing "  that 1/2 tsp per gallon of Pop's brine is what we like . 
I mix the brine with a 1/2 cup of salt , 1/2 cup of brown sugar , 1/2 cup of white sugar .


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## chopsaw (Nov 7, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> fresh sausage brat recipe? antioxidant maybe?


I used it in the Len Poli  Nurnberg brat formula . He notes it as optional . Antioxidant  used to preserve color . This mixture has smoked bacon in it , and I'm thinking that's why he uses it . I'm guessing the bacon could get an off color to it when stored . 
It also has a slight citrus flavor to it . 



SmokinEdge said:


> I use erythorbate at 0.05%


That's what I like about the Owens pre mix . It has it in there . It also works as an emulsifier . Sets the color and aids in the texture on summer sausage . I keep all that stuff on hand . My opinion is it's a must have if you're using cheese in your summer sausage .


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## forktender (Nov 7, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Well, this is to taste kinda thing. But when I do holiday ham, I use pickling spice, slightly crushed, and 3-4 star anise in a gallon of water (pops brine kinda) I like anise but I error on the side of caution, but everyone’s taste is different. I grew up on biscochitos, basically a sugar cookie with cinnamon and anise. Here is about what I put in my 1 gallon brine slightly crushed, ymmv.
> View attachment 515587


This is just my personal opinion, that is going to make it a very anise forward tasting ham. I love anise, and I'd only put one, maybe two rough crushed pods into a ham brine. Star anise is a very strong spice!!!

When I make Porchetta's I only use 1/2 of a pod, and you can pick up the S.A. flavor right away.


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## forktender (Nov 7, 2021)

zwiller said:


> I think yes partly but also for flavor.  A little acidity helps the flavor of many foods.  It's one of my secret weapons but is a little dangerous since as you say it accelerates cure.


It's a preservative, flavor booster, and it also helps emulsify and soften the meat, so it's a texture thing as well, the same reason they put it in store bought bacon. Likewise, it softens the final product, so the bacon isn't as crispy as homemade bacon is.


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## zwiller (Nov 7, 2021)

forktender said:


> It's a preservative, flavor booster, and it also helps emulsify and soften the meat, so it's a texture thing as well, the same reason they put it in store bought bacon. Likewise, it softens the final product, so the bacon isn't as crispy as homemade bacon is.


That's funny, after I typed it I thought it might do other things but was not sure.  While we're talking about it, citric acid is basically just acidity right?  Lemon juice, wine, beer, etc except that citric acid is of known pH and there is better control.  I've been contemplating using sour cream in my weisswurst and this may have convinced me.


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## indaswamp (Nov 7, 2021)

Good discussion guys....


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## jcam222 (Nov 7, 2021)

What a great thread! Bookmarked for future reference. The raw spice vs extract is interesting. I’ve used maple extract when doing bacon. I wonder if simmering the curing brine with raw spices would help to release the oils and flavor in lieu of extracts?


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 7, 2021)

forktender said:


> the same reason they put it in store bought bacon.


In commercial bacon that is stitch pumped, the USDA requires sodium ascorbic  [sodium erythorbate] to be used to accelerate the cure and help dissipate the nitrite in the final product.


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 7, 2021)

forktender said:


> This is just my personal opinion, that is going to make it a very anise forward tasting ham. I love anise, and I'd only put one, maybe two rough crushed pods into a ham brine. Star anise is a very strong spice!!!
> 
> When I make Porchetta's I only use 1/2 of a pod, and you can pick up the S.A. flavor right away.


Like any spice, it is subjective to personal preference. Best advice is to start low and add until satisfied. The amount of meat in the brine will have a large effect on the final flavor. Also, boiling the brine prior to using it teas the spices more and brings much more of all the spice flavors to the front. I don’t boil and find the anise is fairly mild in the cold brine water, but everyone’s taste are different for sure.


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## chopsaw (Nov 7, 2021)

jcam222 said:


> . I wonder if simmering the curing brine with raw spices would help to release the oils and flavor in lieu of extracts?


Certainly helps . I don't simmer , but I'll crack or toast the seeds and put them in a mason jar . I boil some water then take it off the stove , let it cool a bit then pour it in the jar . Wait a couple minutes and lid it up and let it cool . Give it a good shake now and then .


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## tallbm (Nov 7, 2021)

Wow so much good content!

Just remember not to boil the cure #1 or it kills it but all the other stuff can be boiled and cooled some before adding cure and then meat :)

This will be an interesting experiment. 1 star anise, 1 clove, 2 gallons of water, and 25 pounds of pork shoulder.

This is going to be super interesting to see how it turns out :D


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 7, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Wow so much good content!
> 
> Just remember not to boil the cure #1 or it kills it but all the other stuff can be boiled and cooled some before adding cure and then meat :)
> 
> ...


I think this is all wise. Intelligence guided by experience.


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## zwiller (Nov 9, 2021)

Do any of you feel there is an improvement of flavor using either asorbic acid or erythobate?


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 9, 2021)

zwiller said:


> Do any of you feel there is an improvement of flavor using either asorbic acid or erythobate?


You don’t want to use ascorbic acid, it violently reacts with nitrite, sodium ascorbic is fine and sodium erythorbate is what I use, but never in a brine because it accelerates the transformation of nitrite into nitric oxide. So unless you inject or are making sausage I would use erythorbate. As to the benefits, it helps fix the cured color, it is a preservative that does help with rancidity in fat, so storage time is longer. All in all I use it almost with everything thing I pump cure into or sausage that I cure. I don’t use in rubbed bacon either.


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## scottishfoodie (Nov 10, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I'm looking to wet cure two 12 pound pork shoulders to be holiday "hams".
> 
> ...


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## scottishfoodie (Nov 10, 2021)

tallbm said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Hi, I use star anise in my bacon cure. I dry roast it and then crush it lightly.  Half of a star per kg works for me.


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## zwiller (Nov 10, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> You don’t want to use ascorbic acid, it violently reacts with nitrite, sodium ascorbic is fine and sodium erythorbate is what I use, but never in a brine because it accelerates the transformation of nitrite into nitric oxide. So unless you inject or are making sausage I would use erythorbate. As to the benefits, it helps fix the cured color, it is a preservative that does help with rancidity in fat, so storage time is longer. All in all I use it almost with everything thing I pump cure into or sausage that I cure. I don’t use in rubbed bacon either.


Thanks!  OK, ascorbic acid for fresh sausages with no cure and erythorbate for things with cure.  I ordered erythorbate.  Not exactly the same thing but there are a few things similar used for brewing and while they do not make huge differences in quality there is some improvement.  WRT speed.  Would say a ham done with Omak method with added erythrobate be considered fully cured in a few hours or?


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## chopsaw (Nov 10, 2021)

zwiller said:


> Omak method with added erythrobate be considered fully cured in a few hours or?


I wouldn't . 
I never use it on whole muscle . Only SS or smoked sausage . I only use it to set the color and aid in the texture .


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## zwiller (Nov 10, 2021)

Willing to try anything LOL.  
https://www.dietzandwatson.com/product/Black-Forest-Smoked-Ham-4


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 10, 2021)

zwiller said:


> Would say a ham done with Omak method with added erythrobate be considered fully cured in a few hours or?


It would be a couple hours in ground and stuffed meat as sausage. Using erythorbate there you can pretty much go straight to the smoker once the outside of the casings have dried. I’ve done that and it works fine, but the sausage is always better when I smoke the next day.

In whole muscle like ham, it Won’t work that fast (a few hours). Commercial producers of ham inject with a stitch pump which has hundreds of needles and pumps under pressure so they can actually pump more than 10% green weight of the ham and is more thoroughly distributed in the in the meat than we can do at home. Next they put the hams into a vacuum tumbler for several hours to further distribute the curing solution in the ham, we don’t have access to a vacuum tumbler, still it take commercial makers about 24 hr before they can go to smoke. 

At home, it still takes time for the curing solution to move through the solid meat, and time for the nitric oxide (from nitrite) to fix to the myoglobin in the meat. The transformation of nitrite into nitrous acid then into nitric oxide is accelerated by erythorbate, but the interaction with myoglobin (pink color) and the actual curing of the meat is not. I use erythorbate in Dave’s recipe and have often thought that they may be done around day 3, but always go the 5 days the recipe calls for, sometimes longer if it’s convenient. I do think the erythorbate does help with the flavor after being frozen a while, and the color doesn’t fade. I also like the fact that the residual nitrite after completing the process is lower.


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## chopsaw (Nov 10, 2021)

zwiller said:


> Willing to try anything


You're going to see it in a lot of things . I think mainly as a preservative to hold the color in lunch meat . Give it a shot .


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## tallbm (Nov 13, 2021)

Just pulled the pork shoulder hams off the smoker and OMG!!!  Best hams I've ever tasted!


















Two pork butts over 12 pounds each for 25.2 pounds of meat.

Used:

1.5 whole star anise, (big/good sized not little ones)
1 clove
2 gallons of water
1.8% salt (used table salt, yeah people say not to but I use it if I have it)
0.333% Splenda (it's 1/3 of the amount of sugar you would use because it is sweeter and bulkier, also was something I had on hand I want to use up; this is equivalent to 1% sugar)
cure #1 for the amount of water and pork weight
Mixed all that up and then used a meat syringe and injected the solution into the pork shouldes all over like crazy.  Then cured in fridge for 6-7 days (can't remember) which seems like a short time but looks to have come out ok due to my heavy handed injected the cure solution all over into the meat.

*Results:*
Flavor is out of this world from what I was picking off of it and eating!!!!
Also I did not trim the fat off the pork butts and didnt bother cutting crisscross squares into the fat.

Smoked at 275F and took me a little over 8hrs to hit IT.  One hit 160F the other hit 147F.  I just let em ride until they hit a min of 145F and that's how they cooked up as one was on the hotter side of the smoker.

I hung them on cotton stockenettes for smoking, didn't lay them on racks.
I applied used a full AMNPS but lit both sides for double smoke at same time.
Pellets were about 65% Hickory, 17.5% Maple, 17.5% Cherry. Why these percentages?
Simple.  I took Pit Boss M/C/H and mixed it about equal parts with 100% Hickory.  That made for the estimated percentages I have.


Lessons Learned: 

The flavor from the Star Anise and the Clove were AWESOME!  It does this amazing flavor melding/combo thing with the sweet component of the ham and I didn't make it too sweet at all.  I will NOT change a thing with the ratio of Star Anise and Clove to water + meat used
So far from pulling some meat off and tasting it, I will not hesitate to make "hams" out of pork shoulder going forward.
I may have more lessons learned once I actually dig into these things for eating but tomorrow I plan to pull the shoulder blade bones out and taste some more and may have more feedback on flavor deep in the meat but I expect more of the same with my heavy handed injecting.  I will vac seal them and freeze them for reheating.  One for Thanksgiving, the other for Christmas :)
Thanks for the help everyone!  I may do a separate post as I find very little on here or even online about making ham from "green" cuts of pork, so it will surely help others.
I hope all of you enjoy! :)


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## chopsaw (Nov 13, 2021)

That's good to hear . Thanks for the update . Makes me want to get one going , but I have 3 in the freezer already . 
I do about the same smoke flavor as you , but switched out the hickory for mesquite . Really makes a nice ham . 


tallbm said:


> very little on here or even online about making ham from "green" cuts of pork,


You must not be looking in the right place . 
Pork cushion , and pork loin . One I used anise and fennel . 
All kinds of ham threads on here . Maybe the process gets lost , because Pop's brine and Dave's injection are popular and most know what that takes if they are using one of those . 





						Pork cushion ham update
					

Got the hams all smoked up yesterday . Got them out and rinsed on Weds. overnight in the fridge to smoke on Thurs.  One night turned into 2 , and smoked Friday morning . Not sure about the 2 night dry in the fridge , but couldn't be helped .  By habit I hung in the smoker to dry . Didn't need...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com
				









						Loin Hams  , Dave's injection .
					

I normally do loins with Tender Quick , but it's good to keep up with different ways to do things . So I went with the phosphate injection that I use on the butts and picnics . I have also been wanting to try a spicy Italian style ham . Another reason I went with the phosphate injection . Now...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## tallbm (Nov 13, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> That's good to hear . Thanks for the update . Makes me want to get one going , but I have 3 in the freezer already .
> I do about the same smoke flavor as you , but switched out the hickory for mesquite . Really makes a nice ham .
> 
> You must not be looking in the right place .
> ...



Yeah it is very likely my search terms aren't doing the trick.  Also there are TONS of double smoked ham threads and info out there that help drown out the green or from scratch ham threads.

I'll have to try the Mesquite blending sometime. I'm in Texas where Mesquite is used more than anywhere else so I have tasted it on everything and  believe it.  I always giggle a little bit when Mesquite gets labeled as not being good for pork or chicken or even fish.    It just takes a little bit of extra effort to get down and use properly.  It does not come with training wheels for sure haha :D


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 13, 2021)

Super happy that worked out for you. Did you simmer the brine then cool it before injection? Or just mix it up and inject? Shoulder ham is fantastic.


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 13, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> I do about the same smoke flavor as you , but switched out the hickory for mesquite . Really makes a nice ham .


Mesquite is one of my favorite smokes if it doesn’t smolder. My FI has a cooker he made from oilfield casing. He takes the grates out, fills it with mesquite cordwood splits, lights it lets that burn to coals then cooks the Thanksgiving turkey on it in an aluminum pan. First time I ate that bird was 25 years ago. Blew my mind that turkey can taste that good. It’s the mesquite because he does nothing else special. Made a believer out of me. It’s just tough to get up here, and expensive when I can. Otherwise it would be my smoke of choice 90% of the time.


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## chopsaw (Nov 13, 2021)

I use it on almost everything . Just bought another bag of the chunks , but I have chips and pellets .


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## tallbm (Nov 14, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Super happy that worked out for you. Did you simmer the brine then cool it before injection? Or just mix it up and inject? Shoulder ham is fantastic.



I don't ever simmer.  Plus if you simmer cure#1 you can kill it... so I've read.

I simply figre out my water and then put all the salt, sugar, [email protected] into the blender with water and blend it so it is dissolved or gets a good start then I pour it all in and mix around with the rest of the water and the meat.

That mixes it all up super well and then I draw the solution with the meat syringe and inject everything.  Super simple and works like a charm every time.  Even when not injecting i do the same thing, never any issues :)


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## SmokinEdge (Nov 14, 2021)

tallbm said:


> I don't ever simmer.  Plus if you simmer cure#1 you can kill it... so I've read.
> 
> I simply figre out my water and then put all the salt, sugar, [email protected] into the blender with water and blend it so it is dissolved or gets a good start then I pour it all in and mix around with the rest of the water and the meat.
> 
> That mixes it all up super well and then I draw the solution with the meat syringe and inject everything.  Super simple and works like a charm every time.  Even when not injecting i do the same thing, never any issues :)


Yup, that’ll work. I don’t simmer or boil either, but if I did, for flavor, I would add the cure #1 after it cooled and then desolve the cure. The process otherwise is straight forward.


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