# safety concern



## texaxe (Feb 19, 2014)

Hey Guys
Help me out on this one.  I am making a jerky recipe that was published in the Spring "Sausage Maker, Inc." catalog. it goes like this;

3 lbs of lean beef or venison strips
1 tsp. Table salt
1tsp. Instacure #1
1 tsp onion powder
1 tsp. garlic powder
1 tsp black pepper
1/3 cup Worcestershire sauce 

Using Martins' handy dandy Universal cure calculator (very cool by the 
way), the weight of the meat is 1366 G, the required cure is 2.67G at 120 ppm (as suggested by Pops) and the salt requirement is around 25 G. Here is the problem, based on this recipe they are supplying about 6-7 grams of cure based on my scales 1 tsp=6 G,  I substituted kosher salt which is only 7 G per tsp. 
Two things. I don't know the typical ratio between table salt and kosher salt. Should I really be adding around 3.5 tsp of kosher salt and  that sounds like a lot of cure (over double what Martins' calculator recommends. Is my math off, or is this recipe unsafe?


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## daveomak (Feb 19, 2014)

Tex, morning......
3.5 tsp Kosher salt @ 7 g. tsp. = 24.5 g. salt
1 tsp. cure #1 @ ~ 5.6 g. tsp

That gives you 30 g.  salt

3# meat = 1362 g meat.....   30 g salt into 1362 g meat = 2.2% salt....  which is generally accepted as perfect...  Although, depending on the moisture in the meat when you weigh it vs when it is dried, the salt content will be higher.....   Dried meat does need a higher salt content to remain safe to eat to control pathogens if not refrigerated....    
Cure #1 is usually added at a rate of 1 tsp. / 5#....  156 ppm for comminuted meats..   it is a little high for this recipe...  Pops suggestion of 120 ppm is very acceptable for this method as 156 is maximum allowable, if I remember correctly...


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## texaxe (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks Dave, Unfortunately I figured out that this was a little overboard on the cure after I had mixed it in with my meat. Do you think it is reasonable to add a couple of more pounds of meat (for a total of 5 pounds) to my current mix to effectively "dilute" the amount of cure in the meat ? Or is it too late?


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## daveomak (Feb 19, 2014)

If you can add it, mix thoroughly and let rest for everything to come to equilibrium, you will be fine....   nitrite does dissipate and convert to "something" at temps above 130 ....


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## texaxe (Feb 19, 2014)

Thank you. will give that a try


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## foamheart (Feb 19, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Tex, morning......
> 3.5 tsp Kosher salt @ 7 g. tsp. = 24.5 g. salt
> 1 tsp. cure #1 @ ~ 5.6 g. tsp
> 
> ...


Way too much thinking involved here............


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## texaxe (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah, can't help it. Just want to be safe. I like the science. Now I'm learning the art with the help of the members of this forum.


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## madman mike (Feb 19, 2014)

we always use a ratio of 3.1% when using F.S Cure. so for every 1000g of meat you use 3.1g of cure.

weight x .0031 = amount of cure. doesn't matter the unit of measure for weight when using this method. . if you have 25.54kg of meat then it is 25.54 x .0031 = .079kg or 79 grams of cure.

same formula whether using pounds, ounzes or kg's.

this is for F.S Cure sold in Canada. Do Not use this ratio for cure#1/progue powder.


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## madman mike (Feb 19, 2014)

madman mike said:


> we always use a ratio of 3.1% for using progue powder cure. so for every 1000g of meat you use 3.1g of cure.
> 
> weight x .0031 = amount of cure. doesn't matter the unit of measure for weight when using this method. . if you have 25.54kg of meat then it is 25.54 x .0031 = .079kg or 79 grams of cure.
> 
> same formula whether using pounds, ounzes or kg's.


 this ratio we use is in a commercial setting in my families butcher shop. Universal for all the smoked cured meats we produce, wert or dry cured.

Doesn't answer the salt part of the question, I only use fine sea salt. ratio for salt changes depending on some items and other ingredients going into the mix. If you use soya sauce, oyster sauce, garlic or onion salts and so on. Usually minor adjustments, but adjustments.

Have also been away from the fam business fro a few years and some things are forgotten.


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## daveomak (Feb 19, 2014)

madman mike said:


> we always use a ratio of 3.1% for using progue powder cure. so for every 1000g of meat you use 3.1g of cure.
> weight x .0031 = amount of cure. doesn't matter the unit of measure for weight when using this method. . if you have 25.54kg of meat then it is 25.54 x .0031 = .079kg or 79 grams of cure.
> 
> same formula whether using pounds, ounzes or kg's.




Mike....  that figures out to ~194 Ppm nitrite you are putting in the meat.....  That exceeds acceptable limits for some cuts of meat...  Sausage and bacon are two examples that those numbers are not acceptable....   
On this forum, we preach following acceptable guidelines of the FSIS and USDA.....

Dave


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## madman mike (Feb 20, 2014)

1tsp/5lb =  2.46%    weight x .00246 = amount of cure needed.

Mike


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## madman mike (Feb 20, 2014)

Sorry about the confusion.


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## texaxe (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks Mike, that is a nice and easy ratio. I can use that. I have the jerky in the dehydrator now. I saved about two pounds so I can put a little smoke on it before it goes in the dehydrator. Thanks to everyone. This forum is great.


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## texaxe (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks Dave.  I am running and re-running everything through Martins calculator to make sure that I am being safe. I did want to ask about other sources of salt.  In this recipe the, worcestershire adds about 64mg of sodium per teaspoon. That is easily converted to grams once you determine the total volume. I assume that you add that amount into the total salt content. I hadn't thought about the amount of salt in the cure. Am I right in assuming that if the amount of nitrite in #1 cure (pink salt) is 6.25% of the total weight, is the rest  (92.75%) of the weight salt?


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## texaxe (Feb 20, 2014)

Hey Mike, Gotta tell you, I appreciate the information, but that picture of the steak by your user name is making it hard to focus. Perfect!!!!!!


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## madman mike (Feb 20, 2014)

Texaxe said:


> Hey Mike, Gotta tell you, I appreciate the information, but that picture of the steak by your user name is making it hard to focus. Perfect!!!!!!


Haha. ya, its a sweet porter house.

But have a look at these cold smoked rib eye and a smoker full of cheese to really get te  juices flowing

View media item 291344
View media item 291343
View media item 291342
this last one is a bad pic of amazing cold smoked Berkshire pork loin.

Happy smoking!!


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## daveomak (Feb 20, 2014)

madman mike said:


> Sorry, we used F.S Cure. http://jbsausagesupplies.com/?page=ProductDetail&id=506
> This supplier actually recommend a ratio of 3.5% when using this product.
> 
> Its not pink like most #1 cures.
> ...


++++++++++++++++



Mike......  here is where the confusion occurred......    see below.....   our cure down here is 6.25% sodium nitrite....   That puts your cure in the ball park.....   If you don't mind, would you delete the "3.5% addition of cure" in your post....  Folks may not realize the difference in the concentration of sodium nitrite between the two cures and that could cause problems.....  and all related ratios you made reference to..  folks may just skim through the posts and not realize they are adding too much cure when they use the USA cure.....


Ingredients: Salt, Sodium Nitrite, Sodium Bicarbonate, Silicon Dioxide (mfg. aid). Contains: 5% Sodium Nitrite. - See more at: http://jbsausagesupplies.com/?page=ProductDetail&id=506#sthash.XIX2cs8L.dpuf


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## mchar69 (Feb 20, 2014)

Mike, that cold smoke ribeye looks amazing!  The pork looks great, too.


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## daveomak (Feb 20, 2014)

Texaxe said:


> Thanks Dave.  I am running and re-running everything through Martins calculator to make sure that I am being safe. I did want to ask about other sources of salt.  In this recipe the, worcestershire adds about 64mg of sodium per teaspoon. That is easily converted to grams once you determine the total volume. I assume that you add that amount into the total salt content. I hadn't thought about the amount of salt in the cure. Am I right in assuming that if the amount of nitrite in #1 cure (pink salt) is 6.25% of the total weight, is the rest  (92.75%) of the weight salt?




Yes about the salt in cure #1....   Martins calculator takes into account the salt in the cure when recommending the amount of total salt for the meat product..  EX. if you want 2% salt, and 120 Ppm nitrite in the meat, the kosher salt addition is corrected to take into account the salt in the cure....


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## daveomak (Feb 20, 2014)

To all reading this thread.....     

DO NOT USE THE 3.1% RATIO STATED ABOVE....  

THAT IS CANADIAN CURE AT 5% SODIUM NITRITE.



Thanks for posting the cure ingredients....  That was a good thing....


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## madman mike (Feb 20, 2014)

ill delete the confusing posts.

Not sure how to though. Little insight on the process please. I cant find a delete icon when i review or try to edit the post


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## daveomak (Feb 20, 2014)

Mike....  New idea....  Just make a bold big note you are using Canadian cure that is 5% sodium Nitrite......    

We have folks that read these threads etc. on facebook and from google searches that don't know squat when it come to curing...  At times they take stuff as fact and they don't know the difference....   

Click on the pencil at the lower left of the post and that allows you to edit anything you want.....


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## madman mike (Feb 20, 2014)

Ill have to do that. I tried the editing option on all my posts in this thread before i asked for help but there is no delete option that i can find.


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## daveomak (Feb 20, 2014)

Excellent......  Thank you very much......     Dave


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## zalbar (Feb 24, 2014)

Recipes that use volume instead of weight make my skin itch. So many variables by volume.


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## texaxe (Feb 24, 2014)

Yes. The more that I do this, I realize a really good scale and an accurate thermometer are essential to produce a high quality product that is safe.  That being said, there are probably liots of guys on this forum that can give you an accurate meat temp by feeling the density of the meat. I am not there yet. But when measuring nitrites or nitrates , I will use a scale, this recipe showed the potential danger of measuring using a teaspoon. Lets see, did they mean a heaping teaspoon or a level teaspoon?  

Thanks for your post.


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## wade (Feb 24, 2014)

Zalbar said:


> Recipes that use volume instead of weight make my skin itch. So many variables by volume.


Yes especially when converting volumes internationally. Not so bad on the smaller volumes as spoons and cups are usually similar enough but when you get into fluid ounces, pints and gallons the volumes vary a lot. 

In the UK and the US the fluid ounce is roughly the same size (the UK Fluid Ounce is 1.04 times the US Fluid Ounce) however when recipes call for Pints or Quarts then we can get into real trouble. In the US there are 16 Fluid Ounces in one pint whereas in the UK there are 20. This means that if the US recipe uses anything measured in Pints, unless you adjust for the difference, with a "pint" you will be adding 25% more volume in the UK than in the US. When using international recipes to create required brine concentrations for instance this will make a significant difference.


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## madman mike (Feb 24, 2014)

Wade said:


> Yes especially when converting volumes internationally. Not so bad on the smaller volumes as spoons and cups are usually similar enough but when you get into fluid ounces, pints and gallons the volumes vary a lot.
> 
> In the UK and the US the fluid ounce is roughly the same size (the UK Fluid Ounce is 1.04 times the US Fluid Ounce) however when recipes call for Pints or Quarts then we can get into real trouble. In the US there are 16 Fluid Ounces in one pint whereas in the UK there are 20. This means that if the US recipe uses anything measured in Pints, unless you adjust for the difference, with a "pint" you will be adding 25% more volume in the UK than in the US. When using international recipes to create required brine concentrations for instance this will make a significant difference.


that's why I prefer ordering a pint in the UK!!!


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## bigwheel (Feb 26, 2014)

Never got around to using cure on jerky.  What does that supposed to do for it? Thanks.


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## madman mike (Feb 26, 2014)

as long as you use the appropriate amount of salt and the jerky is dehydrated enough you will be fine. the color will be greyish/brown instead of red.

store larger quantity in the freezer and pull out what you will eat within several days.

Many people make jerky without cure and it is fine. I would highly recommend you do not omit cure when making smoked sausages or larger full muscle smoked meats, such as pastrami or ham.


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## daveomak (Feb 26, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Never got around to using cure on jerky.  What does that supposed to do for it? Thanks.




Cure stops any chance of botulism.... I just read, that since the additions of nitrite and/or nitrate in smoking/curing meats, there has not been one case of botulism reported in smoked meats....  :dunno


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## bigwheel (Feb 26, 2014)

Gotcha on that thanks. That botulism is nasty. Have you seen Goldie Hawn's lips lately? She went in for botulism aka botox injections and come out looking like Kareem Abdul Jabber or something. Cure sounds like a good plan for the ground meat jerky shooter crowd..but need some additional input on why it be needed on strips of solid meat. What am I missing here? Not sure being red on the inside would be that advantageous. Sounds like a good excuse for some old widder lady to start screaming its raw or something. We refuse to even buy cured bacon and lunch meat etc. We are health conscious..lol. Nitrates cause a person to get a big old Cancer seems like.


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## daveomak (Feb 26, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Gotcha on that thanks. That botulism is nasty. Have you seen Goldie Hawn's lips lately? She went in for botulism aka botox injections and come out looking like Kareem Abdul Jabber or something. Cure sounds like a good plan for the ground meat jerky shooter crowd..but need some additional input on why it be needed on strips of solid meat. What am I missing here? Not sure being red on the inside would be that advantageous. Sounds like a good excuse for some old widder lady to start screaming its raw or something. We refuse to even buy cured bacon and lunch meat etc. We are health conscious..lol. Nitrates cause a person to get a big old Cancer seems like.




If you refuse to buy bacon and lunch meat that has nitrites in it...   There is no point in discussing botulism.....   

Oh, by the way, google nitrates in garden vegetables.....    bacon has less than 120 Ppm nitrites in it and the USDA does NOT allow nitrates in bacon.....


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## madman mike (Feb 26, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Gotcha on that thanks. That botulism is nasty. Have you seen Goldie Hawn's lips lately? She went in for botulism aka botox injections and come out looking like Kareem Abdul Jabber or something. Cure sounds like a good plan for the ground meat jerky shooter crowd..but need some additional input on why it be needed on strips of solid meat. What am I missing here? Not sure being red on the inside would be that advantageous. Sounds like a good excuse for some old widder lady to start screaming its raw or something. We refuse to even buy cured bacon and lunch meat etc. We are health conscious..lol. Nitrates cause a person to get a big old Cancer seems like.


using cure to maintain the color is mostly aesthetic for selling product. Grey lunch meat is kind of nasty looking and no something most people want to buy.

That being said, almost all lunch meat is made of formed meat in some way. Deli ham may look full muscle but it is actually multiple pieces of meat pressed or formed together through different types of processes. depends on the product as to how they form them.

Cure helps the preservation of the meat and slows the rancidification of the fats in meat. Salt is effective, but not nearly as effective as when Nitrite or Nitrate are used. It definetly makes the process and final product safer and safer for longer.

I sell a bacon to my customers that we call Centennial Natural Bacon. There are only naturally derived sources of nitrate used to make it. This comes from celery extract and lemon juice. It is still Sodium Nitrite, just from a natural source instead of a man made source.

here is a easy to understand article that lays it all out for you.

http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/seasoningflavoring/a/nitrates.htm


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