# noob trying to grasp all this!



## dogwalker (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi, this year was my first venture in to smoking.  My son and one of his best friends earned their Eagle Scout ranks, and a friend suggested I smoke a brisket for the celebration.  I knew nothing about it, and bought a $50 charcoal unit from walmart, read up on directions, and had a tremendous success.  Since then, I've smoked a few pork shoulders, and may smoke a turkey this Thanksgiving (although I'm also curious about the spatchcocking roasting method).

But now I'd like to look into a smoker that doesn't require as much baby-sitting, and that will hold temperatures better, so I've been looking at electric and pellets.  In my searching, I've read a lot of pros and cons on the Masterbuilt, and some units are on sale this month.

I've also read here about this AMPS thing, and would like to know more about that.  I've pulled up their web site, which I'll read this evening.

The Masterbuilt models I'm looking at are:

- 20070213 at Kohl's (but I've read to avoid this one)

- 20070311 now on sale for $200 at Academy (found that here!)

- 20071814 will be $130 at Ace Hardware Thanksgiving week

While I don't care about the window, the 20070311 looks like the best option so far, but I'd like opinions here?  I know several MES units had problems with the heating element and even with holding temperatures, right?

As for the AMPS, would that replace using the wood chips?  Just put it on the lower shelf?

Thanks so much!


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## jted (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Hi, this year was my first venture in to smoking.  My son and one of his best friends earned their Eagle Scout ranks, and a friend suggested I smoke a brisket for the celebration.  I knew nothing about it, and bought a $50 charcoal unit from walmart, read up on directions, and had a tremendous success.  Since then, I've smoked a few pork shoulders, and may smoke a turkey this Thanksgiving (although I'm also curious about the spatchcocking roasting method).
> 
> But now I'd like to look into a smoker that doesn't require as much baby-sitting, and that will hold temperatures better, so I've been looking at electric and pellets.  In my searching, I've read a lot of pros and cons on the Masterbuilt, and some units are on sale this month.
> 
> ...


Hi just a few quick words about your post, I did not look up the Kohl's smoker but if you read it was bad don't buy it It is most likely a Gen 2 unit. There are currently 3 generations of smokers in the Masterbuilt line up. The Gen 1's are the old stand by that smokes day in and day out.  They are all hinged on the left and the AMNPS goes in the bottom next to the heating element. The Gen 2's  are known to be problematic. The Gen2.5 is redesigned with blue tooth and gets Great reviews. I think it is a bit pricey but that is just me.

I looked at the Academy sports page and saw a Gen 1 40 inch smoker for 199.00 That in a GREAT deal and would be my choice . It is a updated version and very well liked by there owners. Just several months ago l the best deal that could be found was 299.00. Here is the link for the Gen 1 at Academy

 http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/mas...ctric-smoker-with-window?repChildCatid=638908

This post is just a personal opinion like all you will receive. Continue to do your home work and shop smarter.   Jted


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## bentley (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker I did a lot of research on several different electric smokers and will get mixed results from all of them. I purchased the 20070311 from Academy. The unit is well build and quite impressive looking. Easy to assemble except for the electric controls locked on top of the smoker. That could use some redesign. The remote control is pretty neat but be careful if you set the smoker with the smoker unit controls; the remote over rides the settings. I did the initial  per-season and everything worked great. For the price you cant beat what you get. I was surprised at the warranty, 90 days. Tells you something about the company's products.  If it come out of the box defective that warranty is handy.


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## mfreel (Nov 12, 2015)

I had to repost that MES 40 link.  That's a steal!!!!!!!!


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## mummel (Nov 12, 2015)

Dont overlook the MES 40 BT.  Check Bear's review.  Its a pretty great smoker.


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## joe black (Nov 12, 2015)

Welcome from SC, Dogwalker.  It's good to have you on this great site.  Sorry, but I know absolutely nothing about electric cookers.  I'm a stick burner and about as far from electric as you can get.  Good luck with your purchase.

Congratulations on your Eagle Scout son.  That's something that can never be taken away.  I am also an Eagle dad and my son is 47 years old.  I'm still proud.


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## daricksta (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Hi, this year was my first venture in to smoking.  My son and one of his best friends earned their Eagle Scout ranks, and a friend suggested I smoke a brisket for the celebration.  I knew nothing about it, and bought a $50 charcoal unit from walmart, read up on directions, and had a tremendous success.  Since then, I've smoked a few pork shoulders, and may smoke a turkey this Thanksgiving (although I'm also curious about the spatchcocking roasting method).
> 
> But now I'd like to look into a smoker that doesn't require as much baby-sitting, and that will hold temperatures better, so I've been looking at electric and pellets.  In my searching, I've read a lot of pros and cons on the Masterbuilt, and some units are on sale this month.
> 
> ...


Go for the 20070311 on sale at Academy. That and the Ace Hardware smoker are both MES Gen 1 models but you get more bang for your buck with the 311. It's a 40-in, not a 30-in, and you get the window and the remote.

For the AMNPS, you'll find double rails going across the bottom of the MES as they go beneath the wood chip holder/heating element box. The AMNPS is placed across those two rails just to left of the wood chip holder. It looks like this: 













cdf701f1-e414-467a-bd7d-e75c516f6c4a_400.jpg



__ daricksta
__ Nov 12, 2015






View media item 434434 that space to the left of the wood chip holder? That's where you place the AMNPS. Here's a photo of a well-used MES 40 Gen 1 showing proper placement for the AMNPS: 













500x1000px-LL-31b5f939_p1400443194.jpg



__ daricksta
__ Nov 12, 2015


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## dogwalker (Nov 12, 2015)

Thanks much!  That helps tremendously.  I'm going to go check it out today, and I'll let you know!


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## daricksta (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks much!  That helps tremendously.  I'm going to go check it out today, and I'll let you know!


Good luck! I just posted a second photo showing the actual placement of the AMNPS in a MES 40 Gen 1 unit.


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## dogwalker (Nov 12, 2015)

I have an update.  During lunch, my wife and I went and looked at the 20070311, and I sold her on it!  She was very impressed with it.  I had just enough time to start the assembly but haven't finished it yet.  I agree with Bentley that the top controller could be redesigned.

But I have a question, probably silly, just want to be sure.  Something seems off about the smoker rack supports.  When I put the racks in, they don't sit level.  They basically have three points of contact with the front left sitting off the support about 1/2 inch.  I put some weight on a rack, and it sits fine, so I don't know how much to care about this.  I'm sure it won't affect anything, more of a little annoyance.  I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I was wondering if any other owners encountered that?  I laid a level on the top of the unit, and it's level.  I can't imagine the unit is warped.

The drop pan rocks a tiny bit the same way, but not much.

I can exchange it, but then the next one may do the same, and it may be absolutely innocuous.

Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to learning and sharing here!


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## dr k (Nov 12, 2015)

jted said:


> Hi just a few quick words about your post, I did not look up the Kohl's smoker but if you read it was bad don't buy it It is most likely a Gen 2 unit. There are currently 3 generations of smokers in the Masterbuilt line up. The Gen 1's are the old stand by that smokes day in and day out.  They are all hinged on the left and the AMNPS goes in the bottom next to the heating element. The Gen 2's  are known to be problematic. The Gen2.5 is redesigned with blue tooth and gets Great reviews. I think it is a bit pricey but that is just me.
> 
> I looked at the Academy sports page and saw a Gen 1 40 inch smoker for 199.00 That in a GREAT deal and would be my choice . It is a updated version and very well liked by there owners. Just several months ago l the best deal that could be found was 299.00. Here is the link for the Gen 1 at Academy
> 
> ...


The 20070311 was dented in the back in several places and the light bulb was out of socket and shattered during delivery in May when I got it from Amazon.  I called MB and they sent me a new one after I took pics of the cut cord.  I soldered the power cord back on and shrunk tubed it in layers.  The same smoker they sent me is unused but tested for six hours without smoke.  I'll use the damaged one till it fails and in the mean time use the spare as an outdoor oven for gatherings.   I think all Mes's need a little deflection, depending on the location of the the heating element, MES temp sensor and top vent.  Regardless of the model, even temps on proven therms is the what you need.  The 20070311 RF controller has 300' line of sight vs. 30' BT.   So as I snooze (optional) the RF remote and RF remote therms give me better wake up and go back to sleep confidence.   If I needed a smoker I'd do the 20070311.  The Gen 2.5 BT range needs to be improved.  That depends on the device it's paired to.

-Kurt


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## bentley (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker the racks on mine are just as you described. Won't effect anything once some weight is added.  Just another sign of quality control issue.  Still worth the money as long as you don't pay full price. If I paid full price I would return the one one I have and look for something else.


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## daricksta (Nov 12, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> I have an update.  During lunch, my wife and I went and looked at the 20070311, and I sold her on it!  She was very impressed with it.  I had just enough time to start the assembly but haven't finished it yet.  I agree with Bentley that the top controller could be redesigned.
> 
> But I have a question, probably silly, just want to be sure.  Something seems off about the smoker rack supports.  When I put the racks in, they don't sit level.  They basically have three points of contact with the front left sitting off the support about 1/2 inch.  I put some weight on a rack, and it sits fine, so I don't know how much to care about this.  I'm sure it won't affect anything, more of a little annoyance.  I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I was wondering if any other owners encountered that?  I laid a level on the top of the unit, and it's level.  I can't imagine the unit is warped.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got a unit where the QC wasn't too good. Perhaps a whole shipment was compromised and that's why the price was bombed. I have a MES 30 Gen 1 20070910 and all racks rest flush on the guides as does the drip pan. Now, the drip pan might warp after a few years of use but mine hasn't after 3+ years, but I don't use my smoker nearly as much as many guys here.

I wouldn't like the racks rocking either because either they were warped up to a half inch or the guides were not correctly installed. I don't like to have to make adjustments for stuff that rocks. I once bought a dorm fridge online from Wal-Mart and had to return it because it was missing a part. The 2nd model they sent me rocked diagonally from back to front. I had to buy a pack of wood shims from a hardware store and place a few under one corner to stabilize it. I hate doing that.

But it's up to you what you do. Just make sure they still have other units in stock before you bring yours back. Or if it's no big deal, rejoice in the great deal you got and have fun smoking!


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## dogwalker (Nov 13, 2015)

I've decide to do this - I'm quite sure that the wobbling racks would be ok, but I checked, and they have over 20 units left, and I explained to the lady helping me what I'd like to do.  I also called Masterbuilt, and the lady there agreed that it should be ok, but that I should exchange it if I'm not 100% comfortable.

So, my wife and I will go up there and have them open one there and check it out.  If the racks sit flush, excellent, I'll exchange.  If they don't, then I'm fine with keeping the unit I have.  Either way, I should be testing it out this weekend!

I don't have any wood chips, so I bought some "Western" brand bags there - one cherry and one hickory.  But I want to look into the A-Maze-N gadget.  My wife even suggested it could be a good Christmas present!

Thanks again, and I'll you all know how it goes!

BTW, is there some particular brand of chips I should buy, and a best company to buy from?

thanks!


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## daricksta (Nov 13, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> I've decide to do this - I'm quite sure that the wobbling racks would be ok, but I checked, and they have over 20 units left, and I explained to the lady helping me what I'd like to do.  I also called Masterbuilt, and the lady there agreed that it should be ok, but that I should exchange it if I'm not 100% comfortable.
> 
> So, my wife and I will go up there and have them open one there and check it out.  If the racks sit flush, excellent, I'll exchange.  If they don't, then I'm fine with keeping the unit I have.  Either way, I should be testing it out this weekend!
> 
> ...


Dogwalker, unlike wood pellets, to me, wood chips is wood chips. I bought two different brands of hickory wood chips and I think a 3rd brand of cherry wood chips. I only use wood chips when I grill over charcoal briquettes and I want another layer of flavor. My good friend Jted introduced me to a homemade pellet smoker that can be used in a kettle grill but I'm still experimenting with that.

I recommend to all smoker newbies to first use wood chips as you learn how to use your smoker. Follow what the owners manual says for preseasoning your MES and how much wood chips to use and how often to reload the wood chip holder. You'll quickly learn that wood chips are a PITA and that's why so many of us happily switched to the AMNPS.

Since you have an open window of time to do an even exchange with the smoker, do it. Hopefully you'll get a perfect one next time. Mine was shipped via Amazon and there were some small white patches on the black enamel powder finish. Other than these minor cosmetic flaws my smoker has performed beautifully for over 3 years. One time I had a major overheating problem which was completely my fault. I resolved it and it's never overheated again.

You won't find a better electric smoker for $199 anywhere. You got an excellent deal.


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## dogwalker (Nov 13, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Dogwalker, unlike wood pellets, to me, wood chips is wood chips. I bought two different brands of hickory wood chips and I think a 3rd brand of cherry wood chips. I only use wood chips when I grill over charcoal briquettes and I want another layer of flavor. My good friend Jted introduced me to a homemade pellet smoker that can be used in a kettle grill but I'm still experimenting with that.
> 
> I recommend to all smoker newbies to first use wood chips as you learn how to use your smoker. Follow what the owners manual says for preseasoning your MES and how much wood chips to use and how often to reload the wood chip holder. You'll quickly learn that wood chips are a PITA and that's why so many of us happily switched to the AMNPS.
> 
> ...


Thanks!  I'm getting very excited about all this!  I've been reading up on posts here:
- why I don't need to worry about keeping water in the water pan, or maybe even have any there at all

- put foil on the water pan and on the drip pan (nice idea!)

- introduced me to the AMNPS

- about to read up on the 3-2-1 method

My son will be home from college over Thanksgiving and then again for a long Christmas break.  He's going to love seeing this thing!


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## daricksta (Nov 13, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks!  I'm getting very excited about all this!  I've been reading up on posts here:
> - why I don't need to worry about keeping water in the water pan, or maybe even have any there at all
> 
> - put foil on the water pan and on the drip pan (nice idea!)
> ...


Dog, please cover your eyes because I'm about to shout. KEEP THE WATER PAN IN THE SMOKER! It serves important functions other than providing a steam bath for the meat. It also helps regulate heat flow by redirecting the flow of heat around it instead of all that heat just rising upward from the heating element. It also is a great as a 2nd drip pan. I foil the inside of my water pan and during a smoke it catches grease and drippings that would fall onto something else. Lastly, it helps shield the AMNPS from grease drips. Admittedly this is more effective in a MES 30 Gen 1 where the interior is smaller but you might find it helpful in your MES 40.

3-2-1 is not locked in stone. Basically, you smoke pork ribs for 3 hours naked to the world except for the dry rub. Then you foil it for 2 hours. Unfoil for the last hour when you can also brush it with a finishing juice or BBQ sauce or whatever.

For me, 6 hours is too long for baby back ribs so I'm trying cooking 2 racks no more than 4 hours without foiling. If I do foil it's more like 1-2-1. St. Louis ribs need a bit longer to cook in my experience. You can to 3-2-1 or 2-2-1 or, heck, 2-2.5-0.5, meaning if you want a little overlong on the foiled part you can shorten up the unfoiled cooking time so you don't overcook the ribs. With experience you'll learn what method is best for you and whether or not you even like to foil. 3-2-1 and 2-2-1 are just general guidelines. I think foiling is important when it comes to beef briskets and pulled pork to get them past their stall points. But I think it also just serves to steam the meat when applied to smoking pork ribs. I don't yet consistently get the bark on ribs and briskets where I want it yet so next year while be full of further trial and error. I always like to learn something new with each smoke.


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## dogwalker (Nov 13, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Dog, please cover your eyes because I'm about to shout. KEEP THE WATER PAN IN THE SMOKER! It serves important functions other than providing a steam bath for the meat. It also helps regulate heat flow by redirecting the flow of heat around it instead of all that heat just rising upward from the heating element. It also is a great as a 2nd drip pan. I foil the inside of my water pan and during a smoke it catches grease and drippings that would fall onto something else. Lastly, it helps shield the AMNPS from grease drips. Admittedly this is more effective in a MES 30 Gen 1 where the interior is smaller but you might find it helpful in your MES 40.
> 
> 3-2-1 is not locked in stone. Basically, you smoke pork ribs for 3 hours naked to the world except for the dry rub. Then you foil it for 2 hours. Unfoil for the last hour when you can also brush it with a finishing juice or BBQ sauce or whatever.
> 
> For me, 6 hours is too long for baby back ribs so I'm trying cooking 2 racks no more than 4 hours without foiling. If I do foil it's more like 1-2-1. St. Louis ribs need a bit longer to cook in my experience. You can to 3-2-1 or 2-2-1 or, heck, 2-2.5-0.5, meaning if you want a little overlong on the foiled part you can shorten up the unfoiled cooking time so you don't overcook the ribs. With experience you'll learn what method is best for you and whether or not you even like to foil. 3-2-1 and 2-2-1 are just general guidelines. I think foiling is important when it comes to beef briskets and pulled pork to get them past their stall points. But I think it also just serves to steam the meat when applied to smoking pork ribs. I don't yet consistently get the bark on ribs and briskets where I want it yet so next year while be full of further trial and error. I always like to learn something new with each smoke.


Thanks!  Sounds perfect.

I'm on task for the turkey this year, so I'm a little nervous.  I've never been the cook before, but they've loved my pork shoulders and briskets.  Well, now I'm trying fowl and will be using my new MES, if I can.  I'm going to read up on it more, because so far, the recipes I've seen for smoking turkeys say to cook at 350 or so for the first hour, which I can't do (I think the max temp is 275).

http://www.momsconfession.com/smoked-turkey/

To experiment, I'm going to smoke a chicken this weekend and see if I can get it above 140 in four hours.  I figure I'll set the temp to max for an hour, then back off to 225.

I haven't cooked ribs either, and now ... I'm just getting really hungry.  :-)


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## Bearcarver (Nov 13, 2015)

Hi Dogwalker!!  Welcome!!

Looks like my Friends got you pretty well covered.

I'll just add, Don't buy too many Wood chips, because you're gonna want to get an AMNPS real soon.

Check this out on MES Units:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/235820/masterbuilt-smokers-bear-s-thoughts-findings

Then once you get going, maybe this can help you:

Just click on *"Bear's Step by Steps"*.

Bear

On Edit: I see you got the 311---That's a Great Smoker. I used mine for 5 years & it still works Great.


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## dogwalker (Nov 13, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Hi Dogwalker!!  Welcome!!
> 
> Looks like my Friends got you pretty well covered.
> 
> ...


Excellent, thanks!

Quick update, I picked up another unit, and the shelves are level, so I'm happy!  I just finished assembling it, and now seasoning it per instructions - heat at 275 for 3 hours, adding wood in the last 45 minutes.

That AMNPS looks really cool, I may forget Christmas and pick one up before Thanksgiving!  I'm sure I can think of some other gift for Christmas.  :-)

Thanks, all, I'll let you know how it goes!  I really like this 311 unit, and so does my boss, uh, wife.


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## jted (Nov 14, 2015)

Dog walker, Looks like you made a good choice. For your first smoke I would recommend that you smoke something like a Pork Tenderloin. It is easy and only takes less than 2 hours.

You will have a learning curve but you will be able to eat. Definitely check out Bears step by step  page. all good stuff there. Everything from fast and easy to good long smokes..    Jted


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## dogwalker (Nov 14, 2015)

Ok, we're going a little crazy here.  My wife's loving this as much as I am.  We've now put in a spatchcocked chicken (first time for both of us), one salmon filet, pork loin, and beef loin!

Any advice on temperatures and times?  I'm monitoring the chicken and salmon, since I figure they'll finish first.

Oh, and I'm getting a huge discrepancy in temperatures between the MES reading and my new ChefAlarm reading.  I don't know if the ChefAlarm needed calibrating, but it's positioned on the second self from the top, about 1/4 of the way in from the right, pointing in.  It reads about forty degrees (!) less than the MES.  How do I know which is right?

The CA meat probe and the MES meat probe were close, the MES was about 3 degrees higher.

Excited!

[edit, just remember about Bear's Step by Step tips, rushing to read that in case I need to smoke the salmon separately]













IMG_2629.JPG



__ dogwalker
__ Nov 14, 2015


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## daricksta (Nov 14, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks!  Sounds perfect.
> 
> I'm on task for the turkey this year, so I'm a little nervous.  I've never been the cook before, but they've loved my pork shoulders and briskets.  Well, now I'm trying fowl and will be using my new MES, if I can.  I'm going to read up on it more, because so far, the recipes I've seen for smoking turkeys say to cook at 350 or so for the first hour, which I can't do (I think the max temp is 275).
> 
> ...


The major problem I see with this recipe is that it doesn't tell you the max weight of the turkey to smoke. You've got to be extremely careful with turkey in a smoker because of the relatively low heat and the amount of time it takes to cook one. You risk food poisoning with placing an 18-22 lb. turkey inside the MES 40--if it fits--because you'll never get the internal temp above 140° within 4 hours. What I would suggest is cooking two turkeys--a 12-15 pounder (could even just be a boneless turkey breast) in the smoker and roasting the main turkey in the kitchen oven. I smoked what was a 12-15 lb. turkey breast in my MES 30 earlier this year. I used hickory and apple wood pellets and it turned out phenomenally well. Forget what I used for a dry rub.

Bear's your man with the Step By Steps for smoking just about anything in an MES. I think he has one for turkey. But in any case, if you keep the bird weight down to no more than around 15 lbs. Just happened to find a how-to video. Good luck!



Oh, and the ribs? You will find that once you get it down, you'll cook the best ribs of your life in your MES. I've grilled ribs over charcoal and smoked them in my MES 30. The smoked ribs win hands down every time.


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## dogwalker (Nov 14, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> The major problem I see with this recipe is that it doesn't tell you the max weight of the turkey to smoke. You've got to be extremely careful with turkey in a smoker because of the relatively low heat and the amount of time it takes to cook one. You risk food poisoning with placing an 18-22 lb. turkey inside the MES 40--if it fits--because you'll never get the internal temp above 140° within 4 hours. What I would suggest is cooking two turkeys--a 12-15 pounder (could even just be a boneless turkey breast) in the smoker and roasting the main turkey in the kitchen oven. I smoked what was a 12-15 lb. turkey breast in my MES 30 earlier this year. I used hickory and apple wood pellets and it turned out phenomenally well. Forget what I used for a dry rub.
> 
> Bear's your man with the Step By Steps for smoking just about anything in an MES. I think he has one for turkey. But in any case, if you keep the bird weight down to no more than around 15 lbs. Just happened to find a how-to video. Good luck!
> 
> ...



Thanks!  I like the idea of two smaller birds.

I decided not to cook the salmon with the meats because Bear's recipe says to smoke the salmon at a much lower temperature.

The chicken came out very good.  I did something recommended on another post somewhere.  I took it out of the smoker at 145 and put it in an over set at 375, to crisp the skin.  Unfortunately, we had a lot going on, and I wasn't able to get back to check the IT until later than I'd planned, and it hit 170.  I had wanted to take it out of the oven at 160.  Even so, it's still tender and has an excellent, excellent taste!  Lesson learned - be very careful with the oven.

On the beef roast and pork loin, I'm embarrassed to say that in our excitement to just do this, we didn't marinate them, just rubbed some dry rub on them.  The beef tastes good, but I think I may have cooked it a little long, because it's not nearly as pink as I wanted.  Still, great taste.  Pork will be next.

I do have one big concern with this unit, and tomorrow I'm going to check out both units - I haven't returned the one that had wobbly racks yet.  The ambient temperate is vastly different than what I read from my chef alarm.  Depending on whether I've set the MES at 225 or 275, the ChefAlarm temperature reads 40 to 50 degrees (!) less.

Tomorrow, I'm going to use the ice cube/water test to check all thermometers, and then I'll test both units, placing the ChefAlarm in various spots.  I'll also try adding the little deflector that I've seen here, where I'll wrap cardboard in aluminum foil and lay it down and see if that helps.

I do have one complaint with the


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## Bearcarver (Nov 14, 2015)

Dogwalker,

A couple things:

You should know that the smoking schedule that is on my Smoked Salmon Step by Step is for hard smoked snacking Salmon that you can pick up between two fingers & beak into bite sized pieces while you're eating it.

If you want to eat Salmon for Dinner, you'll have to use a higher temp for a shorter time, like maybe 220° smoker temp until the IT gets to 160°, because you'll probably want a nice soft & flaky type of flesh.

As for the temps with various units, I would trust your "ChefAlarm", like we trust our "Mavericks", and not what the MES says, but you have to do the boiling test to check the ChefAlarm. It's probably right.

I always go by what my Maverick says, and figure out the difference, so I know where to set my MES to get the Maverick to read what I want the Smoker Temp to be.

And if your right side is a lot hotter than the left, the Deflector I show at a few places takes care of that. If you can't find it or don't understand it, let me know. There isn't much to it & it works good.

Hope these things help some,

Bear


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## dogwalker (Nov 14, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Dogwalker,
> 
> A couple things:
> 
> ...


Thanks, Bear, great to know!  I'll cook the salmon now then.

The beef came out very juicy but a little tough, but (1) we didn't marinate it at all, and (2) my wife bought it on the spur of the moment, so we're not really sure how good a cut it was.  Everyone *loves* the chicken!

The pork is baffling me right now.  I got the IT up to around 140 and then lowered the MES to 100, as I saw on one of the recipes.  Well, the IT of the pork plummeted and wouldn't come back up, so I've now turned the MES back up to 225, and the IT is slowly climbing.

As for the temperature, that would be a big concern for me, then, because when the MES reads 275, the ChefAlarm reads about 50 degrees or so less.  That means I'm limited to only 225 max temperature.  I'm not too worried yet, because (1) I'll test all thermometers tomorrow, (2) I'll add that deflector, and (3) worse case, maybe the other unit (the one that has wobbly racks) would be better.

I don't care about the racks nearly as much as having a good temperature.

My first impressions, other than the temperature problem, are very high.  I really like this smoker!  I'll bet I'll like it even better when I get the AMNPS.  :-)

Thanks again!


----------



## Bearcarver (Nov 14, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks, Bear, great to know!  I'll cook the salmon now then.
> 
> The beef came out very juicy but a little tough, but (1) we didn't marinate it at all, and (2) my wife bought it on the spur of the moment, so we're not really sure how good a cut it was.  Everyone *loves* the chicken!
> 
> ...


If you saw that turning it down to 100° on one of my Step by Steps, the only time I do that is when I get my IT to where I want it, like a 138° Prime Rib, I turn my Smoker down to 100° to hold it until we're ready to eat, instead of having to foil it & pack it in a cooler with towels. I think I'm the only one who does that.

Bear


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## dogwalker (Nov 14, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> If you saw that turning it down to 100° on one of my Step by Steps, the only time I do that is when I get my IT to where I want it, like a 138° Prime Rib, I turn my Smoker down to 100° to hold it until we're ready to eat, instead of having to foil it & pack it in a cooler with towels. I think I'm the only one who does that.
> 
> Bear


Oh!  You know, someday I'll learn to read everything instead of rushing through.  You probably said that above the steps.  That's great to know and makes sense!

Also, wife and I looked at the beef roast and realized it was extremely lean, which may be one reason it came out a little tough.  Great taste and very juicy, just a little tougher than I'd like.

Post-smoking update, salmon, pork, and chicken all turned out great!  And I didn't use any water in the water pan.  All are moist, tender, and taste great.  The beef roast is a little tough, but the taste and juiciness are great.  All in all, great first attempt - thanks, all!


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## Bearcarver (Nov 15, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Oh!  You know, someday I'll learn to read everything instead of rushing through.  You probably said that above the steps.  That's great to know and makes sense!
> 
> Also, wife and I looked at the beef roast and realized it was extremely lean, which may be one reason it came out a little tough.  Great taste and very juicy, just a little tougher than I'd like.
> 
> Post-smoking update, salmon, pork, and chicken all turned out great!  And I didn't use any water in the water pan.  All are moist, tender, and taste great.  The beef roast is a little tough, but the taste and juiciness are great.  All in all, great first attempt - thanks, all!


That's great !!!

Some of those Beef cuts I just take it to Med-Rare, and slice it real thin (see my Rare Roast Beef Step by Step), or cure it & make Dried Beef out of it.

When you get around to it & have complete control of your Smoker Temps, you have to do a small Prime Rib. Keep an eye out for sales, especially near Holidays like Christmas Week. Then use one of my Prime Rib Step by Steps. Prime Rib is one of the easiest things to smoke, with the Greatest Reward !!!

I've been buying my year's supply of Prime Rib (5 to 6 pounders) every Christmas Week for the last 6 years.

Bear


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## dr k (Nov 15, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks!  I like the idea of two smaller birds.
> 
> I decided not to cook the salmon with the meats because Bear's recipe says to smoke the salmon at a much lower temperature.
> 
> ...


I think you'll like the deflector in the right rear corner on it's own rack and the water pan on the second from the bottom rack to keep the heat from going straight up the corner past the Mes sensor to the vent.  The Mes temp display will be close to the actual calibrated therms.  The foiled cardboard there keeps the chip housing cleaner from drips and from vaporizing drips.  I just put the rack in backwards so the beveled edge is at the door so the foiled cardboard sits flat in the corner. 
-Kurt


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## dogwalker (Nov 15, 2015)

You guys are awesome!  Dr K, I experimented with some heavy duty aluminum foil, folding it different sizes and moving it around.  I'm currently testing, and so far it looks great!  I first had a piece that was too large, and the actual temps were overshooting the MES sensor temps by quite a bit, so I kept folding it back.  I've found that when I open the door, the ChefAlarm temperature plummets, while the MES temp doesn't fall off quite as much.  But then I let them stabilize, and then they're within a few degrees of each other.  I'm checking different spots now.  I don't know if I'll get all spots to be the same temperature (although I thought that's how heat works, it becomes uniform?), but they are so close, I'm fine.

What a fantastic solution!  Still need to test more, but I'll let you know - thanks again, all!!

And Bear, I agree about the beef.  If she buys round, I'll cook it medium rare.  She's already wanting to get a brisket, sweet!

The spatchcocked chicken came out wonderful, although the skin wasn't crispy, but I'm the only one in the house who eats the skin anyway.  It was a huge hit!

We plan on buying a 12-15 pound turkey, and I'll be on call to smoke it.  Any idea how long that'll take?  I think I'll spatchcock it again, since that makes it more uniform.

Thanks!


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## Bearcarver (Nov 15, 2015)

Dogwalker,

You'll find that your Digital "Chefalarm", like a Maverick & other Therms is more sensitive than the MES sensor, and will go down faster when you open the door, and will also go up faster when you close the door again.

That's the reason why the actual temp in the smoker overshoots the MES read-out-----The MES sensor is slow, and the MES won't stop heating until the MES gets to the set temp.

That's easily remedied with my method:

Link:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/208552/avoid-temp-swings-in-mes-by-bear

Bear


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## dogwalker (Nov 15, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Dogwalker,
> 
> You'll find that your Digital "Chefalarm", like a Maverick & other Therms is more sensitive than the MES sensor, and will go down faster when you open the door, and will also go up faster when you close the door again.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Bear!  That looks awesome, and makes sense!  Excellent!

Thank you and others for so willing sharing with noobs like me.  Without you guys, I wouldn't have known which smokers to consider, and wouldn't have known about the deal at Academy.  And your "Step by Step" posts look amazing.  And you guys told me about the deflector.

Thanks!


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 15, 2015)

Well, shoot, I wish I'd come here sooner.  I see you all talking about the Maverick, and I just looked it up.  That looks like a much better deal than what I bought from Thermoworks.  Which unit do you guys recommend?  I would think the ET-733?


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## jted (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Well, shoot, I wish I'd come here sooner.  I see you all talking about the Maverick, and I just looked it up.  That looks like a much better deal than what I bought from Thermoworks.  Which unit do you guys recommend?  I would think the ET-733?


Dogwalker, I own a lot of thermometers. I started with the cheap units with silicone covered wires. They did not hold up. I moved on to the THERMOWORKS brand with S/S covered wires They are great I have added the 733 to the group. They all have there place. Sometimes my smoker has 3 or 4 or even 5  probes coming out of it. It is nice to remove different pieces of meat at the right IT temps. Sometimes on a large chunk of meat I will double probe it. The 733 is convenient. I can monitor what is going on from inside. This winter it will be nice during overnight smokes. The Thermoworks probes were very accurate right out of the package as well as the 733. Don't worry you did not waste your money.   Jted


----------



## Bearcarver (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Well, shoot, I wish I'd come here sooner.  I see you all talking about the Maverick, and I just looked it up.  That looks like a much better deal than what I bought from Thermoworks.  Which unit do you guys recommend?  I would think the ET-733?


I personally prefer the ET-732, but that's because I don't have to set anything---All I do is turn them on & off we go. I'm a slow learner when it comes to electronic gadgets.

However they both work Great.

Bear


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## mummel (Nov 16, 2015)

733 is cake once you read the manual and get used to it.


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## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Ok, we're going a little crazy here.  My wife's loving this as much as I am.  We've now put in a spatchcocked chicken (first time for both of us), one salmon filet, pork loin, and beef loin!
> 
> Any advice on temperatures and times?  I'm monitoring the chicken and salmon, since I figure they'll finish first.
> 
> ...


You spatchcocked a chicken???!!! I also did for the first time last summer for a grilling recipe. It was really easy to do and the chicken turned out really well.

Remember that in a MES 40 the right side will always run hotter than the left side.


----------



## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks!  I like the idea of two smaller birds.
> 
> I decided not to cook the salmon with the meats because Bear's recipe says to smoke the salmon at a much lower temperature.
> 
> ...


Yeah, a lot of guys have already weighed in but I want to tip the scales a little myself. Remember that the USDA food safety guideline is that poultry is to be cooked to an internal temp of 165°. ?As you found out at 170° meat is still moist, tender and delicious. I wouldn't take a chance at serving chicken cooked to 160° unless the carryover took it up to 165°. But you were right to finish up the skin crisping in the oven.

I never marinate a beef roast. Never. Have never seen a recipe calling for marinating one. Applying a dry rub should be more than enough unless you also wanted to try injecting a marinating liquid into it.  Now, last week I marinated a pork tenderloin roast which turned out superbly well but that was a cast iron skillet recipe. I haven't smoked a pork loin yet but have cooked quite a few in the kitchen oven. A pork loin would take very well to marinating as well as injections. 

Something could be wrong with the MES and from the little I read of other posts looks like Dr. K and Bear got you covered with solutions. If it were me, I'd have exchanged the MES 40 for another one a week ago. I'll scroll down to see if you posted the results of the ChefAlarm calibration.


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> You spatchcocked a chicken???!!! I also did for the first time last summer for a grilling recipe. It was really easy to do and the chicken turned out really well.
> 
> Remember that in a MES 40 the right side will always run hotter than the left side.


Yeah, the chicken turned out fantastic!  I didn't know that about the MES, thanks.  The little deflector I added seems to help the temps tremendously, but I need to run some more test.

I'm on tap to cook the turkey for Thanksgiving, and after the chicken success, my wife is saying I should do the same thing:

- I applied a dry brine (kosher salt and rosemary) for almost two days

- removed that sucker's backbone

- smoked it!


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Yeah, a lot of guys have already weighed in but I want to tip the scales a little myself. Remember that the USDA food safety guideline is that poultry is to be cooked to an internal temp of 165°. ?As you found out at 170° meat is still moist, tender and delicious. I wouldn't take a chance at serving chicken cooked to 160° unless the carryover took it up to 165°.
> 
> I never marinate a beef roast. Never. Have never seen a recipe calling for marinating one. Applying a dry rub should be more than enough unless you also wanted to try injecting a marinating liquid into it.  Now, last week I marinated a pork tenderloin roast which turned out superbly well but that was a cast iron skillet recipe. I haven't smoked a pork loin yet but have cooked quite a few in the kitchen oven. A pork loin would take very well to marinating as well as injections.
> 
> Something could be wrong with the MES and from the little I read of other posts looks like Dr. K and Bear got you covered with solutions. If it were me, I'd have exchanged the MES 40 for another one a week ago. I'll scroll down to see if you posted the results of the ChefAlarm calibration.


Hey, daRicksta!  Yeah, I actually smoked with the second unit.  The racks are great now, but the temperature was an issue.  However, now that I've added the small deflector, it seems that the temperatures are good.

I brought in some of the pork and beef this morning, and everyone absolutely loved the pork.  On the beef, we can't tell what I needed to do.  Some people said I should have smoked it longer, to 190 degrees IT, but other said that with the beef being so lean, I probably should have taken it off sooner for more medium rare (which I think is what Bear suggested, too).  Others said I should just get a brisket next time.  :-)

I may have to smoke something else this next weekend, just for fun, and to test out the temperatures.

What amazed me, but something you all said - and turned out to be true - is that I didn't need to add water, and everything was so moist and tasty.  My wife watches this cooking show, and the guy there is saying to dab on marinate on the turkey every hour, but I told her I'd rather not keep opening the door, and that it shouldn't really be necessary because the MES is so well insulated.

thanks again!


----------



## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Yeah, the chicken turned out fantastic!  I didn't know that about the MES, thanks.  The little deflector I added seems to help the temps tremendously, but I need to run some more test.
> 
> I'm on tap to cook the turkey for Thanksgiving, and after the chicken success, my wife is saying I should do the same thing:
> 
> ...


My good friend Bear taught me that while the MES 40 benefits from that deflector the smaller MES 30 doesn't need it. That's why the side to side temp variances in my smoker typically settle down or sometimes even reverse places.

My wife has staked out the Thanksgiving turkey territory. She makes an incredible upside down turkey in our kitchen oven. I'm the head honcho for the Christmas dinner entreé but will oven roast mine this year, too. I prefer to grill my whole chicken recipes but I think I might smoke a small turkey in my MES 30 and finish it in the oven next year. I think I wrote I smoked a boneless turkey breast. Both the skin and meat were among the most flavorful I've ever enjoyed. The skin wasn't oven crisp but it was still sooooo good!  I used the leftover turkey meat for smoked turkey and cheddar cheese Panini sandwiches.

I'm going to again grill a spatchcocked chicken next year too. It was always very intimidating but now that I've done it it's a piece of cake. I found a great grilling recipe that called for placing foil-wrapped bricks on the bird while grilling it over indirect heat. It worked really well.


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> My good friend Bear taught me that while the MES 40 benefits from that deflector the smaller MES 30 doesn't need it. That's why the side to side temp variances in my smoker typically settle down or sometimes even reverse places.
> 
> My wife has staked out the Thanksgiving turkey territory. She makes an incredible upside down turkey in our kitchen oven. I'm the head honcho for the Christmas dinner entreé but will oven roast mine this year, too. I prefer to grill my whole chicken recipes but I think I might smoke a small turkey in my MES 30 and finish it in the oven next year. I think I wrote I smoked a boneless turkey breast. Both the skin and meat were among the most flavorful I've ever enjoyed. The skin wasn't oven crisp but it was still sooooo good!  I used the leftover turkey meat for smoked turkey and cheddar cheese Panini sandwiches.
> 
> I'm going to again grill a spatchcocked chicken next year too. It was always very intimidating but now that I've done it it's a piece of cake. I found a great grilling recipe that called for placing foil-wrapped bricks on the bird while grilling it over indirect heat. It worked really well.


My wife got mad at me when I said I think I should spatchcock and roast the turkey - "but I've told the family you're going to smoke it."  When I said that the roasted turkey would have crispier skin and would taste great, she put her foot down.  So I'm smoking it.  I hope it'll be great.

So, I've told people here about these forums, about the MES on sale, and about the AMPNS, and one guy is getting both the smoker and the AMPNS.  He said it'll probably be great for just cold smoking, too, which is new to me, along with all this.

Your wife's turkey sounds great!

Oh, speaking of indirect heat, this year was the first time I've grilled steaks that way.  I now use the "reverse sear" method and love them.  But now I may try smoking some steaks in the MES and then searing them at the end.  I have no idea if that's smart or not, LOL.


----------



## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Hey, daRicksta!  Yeah, I actually smoked with the second unit.  The racks are great now, but the temperature was an issue.  However, now that I've added the small deflector, it seems that the temperatures are good.
> 
> I brought in some of the pork and beef this morning, and everyone absolutely loved the pork.  On the beef, we can't tell what I needed to do.  Some people said I should have smoked it longer, to 190 degrees IT, but other said that with the beef being so lean, I probably should have taken it off sooner for more medium rare (which I think is what Bear suggested, too).  Others said I should just get a brisket next time.  :-)
> 
> ...


Dogwalker,

Todd Johnson has said that in his opinion the water pan for the MES 30 is too large and just serves to steam the food. I found that he was right. I'd think the same thing applies to the MES 40. I've never had any meat smoked in my MES come out dry unless I way overcooked it. A water pan wouldn't have saved that.

What cut of beef did you smoke? I didn't see your original post. It's cool that you now have a great unit. That's what I was hoping for you.


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## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> My wife got mad at me when I said I think I should spatchcock and roast the turkey - "but I've told the family you're going to smoke it."  When I said that the roasted turkey would have crispier skin and would taste great, she put her foot down.  So I'm smoking it.  I hope it'll be great.
> 
> So, I've told people here about these forums, about the MES on sale, and about the AMPNS, and one guy is getting both the smoker and the AMPNS.  He said it'll probably be great for just cold smoking, too, which is new to me, along with all this.
> 
> ...


Be careful with spatchcocking that turkey, my friend. We have a great set of German steel (but made in China) knives. The first year we had them I used the chef's knife to try to separate the drumstick from the turkey carcass and promptly busted off the tip of the knife. Needless to say I've improved my turkey carving technique since then. But I'd think with the larger interior space of your MES 40 there should be plenty of room on a rack for a smallish butterflied turkey.

My wife's turkey? Last year's was the best I ever had in my life. On Thanksgiving evening we had what I think were one of the NFL playoffs on TV. At the end of the game they showed the beautifully roasted turkey they were going to enjoy for the broadcasters' dinner. Well, my wife's turkey was the spitting image of that professionally-cooked turkey and I told everyone at dinner that. Yep, she earned the right to stake out the TG turkey territory.

For Daddy's Day this year I also did the reverse steak searing thing. I smoked 4 bone-in ribeyes in the MES until they were just below medium rare and then transferred them to my Weber 22.5" One Touch Silver kettle charcoal grill to sear over direct heat. My temp management over the coals wasn't as good so for my tastes I overcooked them although my wife and kids loved them. The hickory smoke from the wood pellets added a great layer of flavor. But, it was a hassle. It was just the second time I've used both my smoker and my charcoal grill at the same time. Next year I'll stick to the grill and perhaps put a wood pellet smoker to the side near the charcoal briquettes. But the smoking in a smoker and then searing steaks on a grill thing works extremely well if you want to put in the time to do it.

How were you able to get a sear on the steaks over indirect heat?


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Be careful with spatchcocking that turkey, my friend. We have a great set of German steel (but made in China) knives. The first year we had them I used the chef's knife to try to separate the drumstick from the turkey carcass and promptly busted off the tip of the knife. Needless to say I've improved my turkey carving technique since then. But I'd think with the larger interior space of your MES 40 there should be plenty of room on a rack for a smallish butterflied turkey.
> 
> My wife's turkey? Last year's was the best I ever had in my life. On Thanksgiving evening we had what I think were one of the NFL playoffs on TV. At the end of the game they showed the beautifully roasted turkey they were going to enjoy for the broadcasters' dinner. Well, my wife's turkey was the spitting image of that professionally-cooked turkey and I told everyone at dinner that. Yep, she earned the right to stake out the TG turkey territory.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the warning on the bird!  I'll keep reading up on it.  I'll be fine not spatchcocking it, too (less work!), if the breasts and legs come out the right temps.

Actually, I've tried a few different approaches to the searing.  I grilled indirectly, and then I either then crank the grill very high (my grill is on its last legs) and sear them over the fire; or I put butter down on an iron skillet and sear them in that.  Both are great.  My younger son much prefers the butter searing, and it is pretty awesome, I have to admit.  Probably not great for our cholesterol, but ah well.  :-)

Some people prefer searing first and then cooking, which I've never tried.  I'll have to try that for comparison someday.  But this works so great.  I wind up with steaks cooked evenly throughout, although I tend to undercook them.  My wife and older son prefers a little more medium, so I need to be more diligent about that.

Oh, I do let them rest for maybe 10 minutes, too.


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Dogwalker,
> 
> Todd Johnson has said that in his opinion the water pan for the MES 30 is too large and just serves to steam the food. I found that he was right. I'd think the same thing applies to the MES 40. I've never had any meat smoked in my MES come out dry unless I way overcooked it. A water pan wouldn't have saved that.
> 
> What cut of beef did you smoke? I didn't see your original post. It's cool that you now have a great unit. That's what I was hoping for you.


Thanks!  Yeah, I'm glad I picked up this second unit.  The temperatures threw me, but once I added that small deflector, it all seems good.

I was going to smoke only a chicken, but my wife ran out and picked up a huge salmon, a pork loin, and I think some sort of very lean beef roast.  I took the beef out at 135, and now I don't know if I should have taken it out sooner or let it go to 190.  I love pork shoulders at 190, and I've had great luck with briskets, so I don't know what went wrong here.  The beef tastes and smells great, and if I slice it then or cut it up, it makes great sandwiches.


----------



## Bearcarver (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Oh, speaking of indirect heat, this year was the first time I've grilled steaks that way.  I now use the "reverse sear" method and love them.  But now I may try smoking some steaks in the MES and then searing them at the end.  I have no idea if that's smart or not, LOL.


That's my favorite way to make steaks!!!

I quit doing it though because Mrs Bear doesn't want hers smoked, and it's a PITA to smoke mine in my MES, and then put mine & her cold steak on the grill, and expect to get them both at Medium Rare together. It just isn't worth the hassle to me.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






You don't have that problem, so I would definitely do that if I was you.

Bear


----------



## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> That's my favorite way to make steaks!!!
> 
> I quit doing it though because Mrs Bear doesn't want hers smoked, and it's a PITA to smoke mine in my MES, and then put mine & her cold steak on the grill, and expect to get them both at Medium Rare together. It just isn't worth the hassle to me.
> 
> ...


Great!  I'm sorry about Mrs Bear.  I'll be curious to see how this goes!  My younger son is home next week, so i plan on cooking steaks one night and smoking the turkey.  Over the Christmas holidays, I plan on smoking lots and lots!  Pork shoulders, fish, chickens, who knows what!

Believe it or not, here I am, 56 years old, and this is the first year I've really taken to grilling, and the first time I've ever tried smoking, and I'm now loving both.  It's a whole new world!  :-)


----------



## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks for the warning on the bird!  I'll keep reading up on it.  I'll be fine not spatchcocking it, too (less work!), if the breasts and legs come out the right temps.
> 
> Actually, I've tried a few different approaches to the searing.  I grilled indirectly, and then I either then crank the grill very high (my grill is on its last legs) and sear them over the fire; or I put butter down on an iron skillet and sear them in that.  Both are great.  My younger son much prefers the butter searing, and it is pretty awesome, I have to admit.  Probably not great for our cholesterol, but ah well.  :-)
> 
> ...


Cast iron searing is how many pros and very good home cooks do it. Searing first and finishing the steak in the oven or reverse searing and finishing it on the grill or in a skillet--it all depends on what you prefer. My problem in my household is that my wife and my daughter daughter (when she visits) like their steaks at least medium while my son and I both like our steaks medium rare (my son in his late teens introduced me to that) so I have to pull a couple of steaks before the other ones. On the grill I tend to lose concentration and overcook everything, much to the delight of the womenfolk. When it comes to getting the IT right, an instant read digital therm is your friend. I own a CDN thermocouple therm which is a knockoff of a Thermapen. My wife has a Thermoworks ThermoPop. My CDN saved my ribeye roast last Christmas when another therm I was using showed the temp 5-10 degrees lower than it actually was. I was able to pull the roast when it was still medium rare.  I let the meat rest too. The only cut of steak that doesn't seem to benefit from resting is flank steak. No matter how long I let it rest all the juices still flow out and aren't redistributed.

The new studies say that the fat and cholesterol from butter isn't bad. I've got very high cholesterol due to bad genetics anyway. I pan fried a porterhouse steak using the French method of spooning over butter in a skillet (this was a French-style compound butter) and it was very good but I prefer a steak just pan fried in light oil in a cast iron skillet or grill pan or especially on my charcoal grill. When it comes to grilling I'm a very old school purist: propane gas is not for outdoor grilling of food; it used for heating both homes and water and for cooking food using a kitchen oven.


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## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks!  Yeah, I'm glad I picked up this second unit.  The temperatures threw me, but once I added that small deflector, it all seems good.
> 
> I was going to smoke only a chicken, but my wife ran out and picked up a huge salmon, a pork loin, and I think some sort of very lean beef roast.  I took the beef out at 135, and now I don't know if I should have taken it out sooner or let it go to 190.  I love pork shoulders at 190, and I've had great luck with briskets, so I don't know what went wrong here.  The beef tastes and smells great, and if I slice it then or cut it up, it makes great sandwiches.


Lean beef roast? Maybe something like a top or bottom round, eye of round, round tip or sirloin tip? Those are all lean cuts of beef which should have been OK at 135. For beef briskets I've been going up to 200 but I'm backing it down to 190; same with pork shoulder. But what was wrong with the beef again? I don't know if you said.

A chuck roast is excellent in a smoker but you need to cook it to the same IT as a brisket or a pork shoulder.


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## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Lean beef roast? Maybe something like a top or bottom round, eye of round, round tip or sirloin tip? Those are all lean cuts of beef which should have been OK at 135. For beef briskets I've been going up to 200 but I'm backing it down to 190; same with pork shoulder. But what was wrong with the beef again? I don't know if you said.
> 
> A chuck roast is excellent in a smoker but you need to cook it to the same IT as a brisket or a pork shoulder.


I'll have to ask her what exactly it was, she just sprung it on me.  It tastes great and is very juicy, quite pink.  The only problem is that it's chewy.  Now if I cut into thin strips or chop it up, it's great!  I'm just surprised, because the chicken and pork are pretty near perfect (as is the salmon).


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## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Cast iron searing is how many pros and very good home cooks do it. Searing first and finishing the steak in the oven or reverse searing and finishing it on the grill or in a skillet--it all depends on what you prefer. My problem in my household is that my wife and my daughter daughter (when she visits) like their steaks at least medium while my son and I both like our steaks medium rare (my son in his late teens introduced me to that) so I have to pull a couple of steaks before the other ones. On the grill I tend to lose concentration and overcook everything, much to the delight of the womenfolk. When it comes to getting the IT right, an instant read digital therm is your friend. I own a CDN thermocouple therm which is a knockoff of a Thermapen. My wife has a Thermoworks ThermoPop. My CDN saved my ribeye roast last Christmas when another therm I was using showed the temp 5-10 degrees lower than it actually was. I was able to pull the roast when it was still medium rare.  I let the meat rest too. The only cut of steak that doesn't seem to benefit from resting is flank steak. No matter how long I let it rest all the juices still flow out and aren't redistributed.
> 
> The new studies say that the fat and cholesterol from butter isn't bad. I've got very high cholesterol due to bad genetics anyway. I pan fried a porterhouse steak using the French method of spooning over butter in a skillet (this was a French-style compound butter) and it was very good but I prefer a steak just pan fried in light oil in a cast iron skillet or grill pan or especially on my charcoal grill. When it comes to grilling I'm a very old school purist: propane gas is not for outdoor grilling of food; it used for heating both homes and water and for cooking food using a kitchen oven.


Oh, man, I hear you on the steaks!  My youngest and I both like medium-rare, my wife prefers a little more toward medium, and my oldest wants his medium.  That's funny, "to the delight of the womenfolk" :-)

Yeah, one of the first things I bought this year was the ThermoPop!  I love that thing!  In fact, that's why I recently bought the ChefAlarm.  Hmmm, now I'm wondering whether I let the beef rest.  I know I did everything else...

I have a charcoal grill and a propane grill, and I just may try the charcoal grill out for searing.  I figure, I can constantly experiment and enjoy it!


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## mummel (Nov 16, 2015)

Don't forget sous vide steaks!


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## dogwalker (Nov 16, 2015)

mummel said:


> Don't forget sous vide steaks!


Oh man, I know, right?!  I've never done that, but some people at work have, and they swear by them.  Makes sense, too!


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## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Great!  I'm sorry about Mrs Bear.  I'll be curious to see how this goes!  My younger son is home next week, so i plan on cooking steaks one night and smoking the turkey.  Over the Christmas holidays, I plan on smoking lots and lots!  Pork shoulders, fish, chickens, who knows what!
> 
> Believe it or not, here I am, 56 years old, and this is the first year I've really taken to grilling, and the first time I've ever tried smoking, and I'm now loving both.  It's a whole new world!  :-)


I was about 61 when I took up smoking. I've always wanted one and when I found a MES 30 Gen 1 for (now the high price of) $189 on Amazon she said "Happy early Father's Day!".  I really only smoke during spring-fall and it took me about 2 seasons to have some confidence in what I was doing and to start putting out some consistently good Q. I've owned a Weber charcoal kettle grill since the early 90s. I'm on my 2nd one and for me it's the only way to grill. There's something about cooking over charcoal on a kettle grill that's both personal and primal. I've developed some new techniques over the past few years and I've gotten better there, too. Also, thanks to getting into smoking, I've learned how to make up my own dry rubs and sauces--from recipes of course. But now I've amassed enough knowledge to know how to tweak recipes to suit my own tastes and to adjust if I don't have enough of an ingredient and don't want to make a trip to the store.


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## daricksta (Nov 16, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> I'll have to ask her what exactly it was, she just sprung it on me.  It tastes great and is very juicy, quite pink.  The only problem is that it's chewy.  Now if I cut into thin strips or chop it up, it's great!  I'm just surprised, because the chicken and pork are pretty near perfect (as is the salmon).


I'm a-thinkin' it's a some cut of round because they can be chewy if not cooked properly--I know that first hand. I forget that tri-tip is from the bottom sirloin, is fairly lean and awfully chewy if undercooked. But smoked or grilled properly it's one of the most flavorful cuts around.

Chicken and pork in a smoker are almost foolproof. Just got to get them to the proper IT and it appears you did just that.

You did the salmon on its own? Did you brine it or just put a dry rub on? I did some salmon a couple of years ago and they were great. This year I tried a dry rub meant for pork and I crashed and burned.


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## dr k (Nov 17, 2015)

mummel said:


> Don't forget sous vide steaks!


I was thinking about a crockpot plugged into a a rheostat to see how close it can hold water around 125-130*F. Maybe babysit a big steak vacuumed sealed in a crockpot on warm and unplug periodically when the water hits 130*F till IT gets there. I'm not sure yet. 
-Kurt


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## dogwalker (Nov 17, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I'm a-thinkin' it's a some cut of round because they can be chewy if not cooked properly--I know that first hand. I forget that tri-tip is from the bottom sirloin, is fairly lean and awfully chewy if undercooked. But smoked or grilled properly it's one of the most flavorful cuts around.
> 
> Chicken and pork in a smoker are almost foolproof. Just got to get them to the proper IT and it appears you did just that.
> 
> You did the salmon on its own? Did you brine it or just put a dry rub on? I did some salmon a couple of years ago and they were great. This year I tried a dry rub meant for pork and I crashed and burned.


Your weber sounds great!

I dry brined the chicken, but since the others were my wife's sudden surprise, we just used rub on them.  She has some rubs she bought, I'll need to see what they are.  So maybe I undercooked the beef, I'll have to experiment!


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## dogwalker (Nov 17, 2015)

Dr K said:


> I was thinking about a crockpot plugged into a a rheostat to see how close it can hold water around 125-130*F. Maybe babysit a big steak vacuumed sealed in a crockpot on warm and unplug periodically when the water hits 130*F till IT gets there. I'm not sure yet.
> -Kurt


That's a nice idea, a good way to try out sous vide.


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## daricksta (Nov 17, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Your weber sounds great!
> 
> I dry brined the chicken, but since the others were my wife's sudden surprise, we just used rub on them.  She has some rubs she bought, I'll need to see what they are.  So maybe I undercooked the beef, I'll have to experiment!


My beloved daughter has set me up with dry rubs she buys when she's out touristing on vacation and goes into stores that sell that stuff. My wife runs a home daycare and I've been lucky enough that two of the dads have also bought me bottles of dry rubs since they're into grilling and smoking like I am. I'll use one type or mix and match when I'm not using one of my own concoctions.

Experimenting is the fun part! Also, we brined a Thanksgiving turkey one year. We might have made a mistake but it turned out so salty we've never done it again.


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## dogwalker (Nov 17, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> My beloved daughter has set me up with dry rubs she buys when she's out touristing on vacation and goes into stores that sell that stuff. My wife runs a home daycare and I've been lucky enough that two of the dads have also bought me bottles of dry rubs since they're into grilling and smoking like I am. I'll use one type or mix and match when I'm not using one of my own concoctions.
> 
> Experimenting is the fun part! Also, we brined a Thanksgiving turkey one year. We might have made a mistake but it turned out so salty we've never done it again.


I was going to use a teaspoon of kosher salt per pound of the turkey.  Any idea whether that's too much?


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## daricksta (Nov 20, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> I was going to use a teaspoon of kosher salt per pound of the turkey.  Any idea whether that's too much?


That's way too much salt. 15 teaspoons of Kosher salt = 4 .5 TABLESPOONS. On saveur.com I just read a recipe for a 15-pound turkey (which is about the size you plan to smoke) that calls for TWO TABLESPOONS of salt and one teaspoon of pepper. The recipe acknowledges that that amount of salt may seem like a lot (not to me) but you're supposed to rub the salt-and-pepper mix all over the bird and inside the cavity. Notice that this is a dry brine as the turkey is then kept in the fridge uncovered for 1-2 days.

My wife, the turkey expert, has her own wet rub mix which is far superior. She uses butter, olive oil, and herbs and rubs it all over the outside of the bird and beneath the skin. She also places onion, fresh garlic, _fresh_ thyme and lemon wedges in the cavity. aromatic herbs in the cavity and rubs the outside of the bird with a combo of butter, olive oil, poultry seasoning, _dried_ thyme, and salt and pepper (the latter two to taste). She cooks the turkey upside down in the oven, turning it right side up around 3-4 hours in. We usually buy a turkey that's between 20-22 lbs.

Her turkey, in our opinion, turns out far better than brined turkeys. She roasts it at 325° until the IT is 160°. She then lets it rest for 30 minutes as the carryover takes the IT up to 165°. I think I wrote someplace that the turkey last year looked just like professionally-cooked turkeys you see on TV and was the best I've ever tasted.


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## dogwalker (Nov 20, 2015)

Thanks, daRicksta, I'm glad you warned me.  My wife said the chicken was a little salty for her taste, so now I know to cut it in half!  On the other hand, I like the wet rub you describe, too, and I'm going to discuss options with my wife.  She said she bought a 12 or 13 pound turkey.


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## daricksta (Nov 20, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Thanks, daRicksta, I'm glad you warned me.  My wife said the chicken was a little salty for her taste, so now I know to cut it in half!  On the other hand, I like the wet rub you describe, too, and I'm going to discuss options with my wife.  She said she bought a 12 or 13 pound turkey.


I like salty foods but even I have my limits, Dogwalker. And there are quite a few times I've oversalted things like egg dishes and steaks.

My wife got that recipe from a cookbook and last year she perfected it. When we cook we're all about the flavor profiles and for us (and our family and friends last Thanksgiving, she perfected it. It's taken her about 3 years to get it right. I can ask her where she got the recipe if you like.


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## exbutch (Nov 20, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> See that space to the left of the wood chip holder? That's where you place the AMNPS. Here's a photo of a well-used MES 40 Gen 1 showing proper placement for the AMNPS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the visual....I've been wondering how to best arrange the AMNPS in my new MES 40 / 311 as well.  That picture is perfect!


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## dogwalker (Nov 21, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I like salty foods but even I have my limits, Dogwalker. And there are quite a few times I've oversalted things like egg dishes and steaks.
> 
> My wife got that recipe from a cookbook and last year she perfected it. When we cook we're all about the flavor profiles and for us (and our family and friends last Thanksgiving, she perfected it. It's taken her about 3 years to get it right. I can ask her where she got the recipe if you like.


Please do!  We've decided, especially since my wife bought a frozen turkey (we didn't realize they're already injected) that we'll definitely tone it down.  We'll create a wet brine with brown sugar, a little kosher salt, and some other things (still TBD).  I think it's going to be good - at least that's my hope!


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Please do!  We've decided, especially since my wife bought a frozen turkey (we didn't realize they're already injected) that we'll definitely tone it down.  We'll create a wet brine with brown sugar, a little kosher salt, and some other things (still TBD).  I think it's going to be good - at least that's my hope!


OK. I'll ask her about it today and get you that recipe asap. We don't buy the injected turkeys. We bought our Thanksgiving turkey at Costco yesterday. We got a 12 lb. turkey today. I'm saving that to smoke in the summer. Most likely won't wet brine it. There's a difference of opinion out there whether turkey should be brined or not. To my wife and I, if the bird's prepped correctly it doesn't need to be brined.


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

Exbutch said:


> Thanks for the visual....I've been wondering how to best arrange the AMNPS in my new MES 40 / 311 as well. That picture is perfect!


You're welcome. I've got the little MES 30 Gen 1 20070910 and that's where my AMNPS goes.


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Please do!  We've decided, especially since my wife bought a frozen turkey (we didn't realize they're already injected) that we'll definitely tone it down.  We'll create a wet brine with brown sugar, a little kosher salt, and some other things (still TBD).  I think it's going to be good - at least that's my hope!


Dogwalker, I'll PM you with the wife's recipe so I'm not arrested for hijacking this thread.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 22, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Dogwalker, I'll PM you with the wife's recipe so I'm not arrested for hijacking this thread.


















Seriously though Rick---This is Dogwalker's Thread. He was the OP.

I'm sure he won't call the Cops.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bear


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Seriously though Rick---This is Dogwalker's Thread. He was the OP.
> 
> I'm sure he won't call the Cops.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Bear. But maybe he's guard dogwalker when it comes to his thread. I just respond off emailed notices that someone quoted me in some thread. I never remember who the OP is.

Bear, that baggie you just found? That's not mine...


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## Bearcarver (Nov 22, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> Thanks, Bear. But maybe he's guard dogwalker when it comes to his thread. I just respond off emailed notices that someone quoted me in some thread. I never remember who the OP is.
> 
> Bear, that baggie you just found? That's not mine...


I don't know if it was always there, but at least for awhile now it says "Thread Starter" above the name of whoever started the thread. Look above Dogwalker's Name.

And I think it's your baggie!!!

Bear


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> I don't know if it was always there, but at least for awhile now it says "Thread Starter" above the name of whoever started the thread. Look above Dogwalker's Name.
> 
> And I think it's your baggie!!!
> 
> Bear


You're bloody right. He's the thread starter.

It can't be. Last time I used baggies I was hangin' ten shootin' the curl at Wiamea Bay back in 1962! 













waimea.jpg



__ daricksta
__ Nov 22, 2015


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## dogwalker (Nov 22, 2015)

You guys are nuts!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I'm certainly good with it!  This is a great forum and great guys.  I hope I'll be able to contribute something at some point!


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## Bearcarver (Nov 22, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> You guys are nuts!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You already have---Plenty!!

Stick around!!

Bear


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## daricksta (Nov 23, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> You guys are nuts!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What Bear said. And I don't think it's so much that we guys are nuts but that Bear is guilty by associating with me. That's the price he pays for being my friend. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





You'll be surprised how quickly you'll start thinking you know what you're doing. I've learned a lot from SMF and that's why I give back when I can.


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## dr k (Nov 24, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> You're bloody right. He's the thread starter.
> 
> It can't be. Last time I used baggies I was hangin' ten shootin' the curl at Wiamea Bay back in 1962!
> 
> ...


Holy crap! Hangin ten during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I was -5 years old!

-Kurt


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## daricksta (Nov 24, 2015)

Dr K said:


> Holy crap! Hangin ten during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I was -5 years old!
> 
> -Kurt


And that's why CPS took me away from my parents. I was 10 years old and living in the San Fernando Valley. What the hell was I doing alone cruising the pipeline across the giant waves of Waimea?


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## dogwalker (Nov 24, 2015)

Dang, I can't think of any witty (or even half-witted) reply!  I was raised a little farther east of San Fernando,over in Georgia.  The only waves I saw were from people on their front porches!


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## daricksta (Nov 25, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Dang, I can't think of any witty (or even half-witted) reply!  I was raised a little farther east of San Fernando,over in Georgia.  The only waves I saw were from people on their front porches!


I don't remember a town called Georgia east of San Fernando, which is in the Northeast San Fernando Valley. We got a Pacoima. Perhaps Georgia was a sub-suburb now the site of a strip mall?


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## dogwalker (Nov 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I don't remember a town called Georgia east of San Fernando, which is in the Northeast San Fernando Valley. We got a Pacoima. Perhaps Georgia was a sub-suburb now the site of a strip mall?


Ok, I *literally* laughed out loud!  People are looking at me now as if I'm strange.  Wait, they always look at me that way.


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## daricksta (Nov 25, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Ok, I *literally* laughed out loud!  People are looking at me now as if I'm strange.  Wait, they always look at me that way.


I'm sorry, I should have warned you, Dogwalker. I have that effect on people. Thank goodness I've won every lawsuit filed against me. At least in this case you just gave me my defense. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr. Dogwalker's disturbed appearance and manner predated Mr. daRicksta's extremely funny comedic written remark. Thererfore ad nauseum and jurisprudence I move to have this frivolous lawsuit against my client dismissed and to award him punitive damages paid by the plaintiff of _one million dollars_, Mr. Powers!"

Sorry, wrong lawsuit. Got carried away.


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## dogwalker (Nov 25, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I'm sorry, I should have warned you, Dogwalker. I have that effect on people. Thank goodness I've won every lawsuit filed against me. At least in this case you just gave me my defense. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr. Dogwalker's disturbed appearance and manner predated Mr. daRicksta's extremely funny comedic written remark. Thererfore ad nauseum and jurisprudence I move to have this frivolous lawsuit against my client dismissed and to award him punitive damages paid by the plaintiff of _one million dollars_, Mr. Powers!"
> 
> Sorry, wrong lawsuit. Got carried away.


LOL!!  I resemble that remark!

"Dogwalker, are you crazy?"

"Not as far as you know!"


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## daricksta (Nov 26, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> LOL!!  I resemble that remark!
> 
> "Dogwalker, are you crazy?"
> 
> "Not as far as you know!"


I think you and I are going to get along just fine...


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## dogwalker (Nov 27, 2015)

daRicksta said:


> I think you and I are going to get along just fine...


LOL, you bet!


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## meatpacker (Dec 3, 2015)

I like daRicksta's INFO on smoking them ribs


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## daricksta (Dec 4, 2015)

meatpacker said:


> I like daRicksta's INFO on smoking them ribs


Thanks, Meatpacker! I don't smoke as much as a lot of guys here but I have smoked a lot of ribs in my MES. I'm still experimenting with foiling vs.non-foiling to get the bark and meat right every time instead of most of the time. Problem is baby backs and St. Louis ribs are two separate animals.


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## dogwalker (Dec 4, 2015)

Man, I can't wait to smoke ribs!  Tonight I'm smoking a chicken and a pork loin.  I put on a pretty spicy rub, "Steve's Basic BBQ Rub" so I'll be interested in seeing how that comes out.

I'm going to have to smoke some chicken wings here soon!


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## daricksta (Dec 4, 2015)

Dogwalker said:


> Man, I can't wait to smoke ribs!  Tonight I'm smoking a chicken and a pork loin.  I put on a pretty spicy rub, "Steve's Basic BBQ Rub" so I'll be interested in seeing how that comes out.
> 
> I'm going to have to smoke some chicken wings here soon!


Any chance you might think about moving near me?

Remember: "No Qview--it didn't happen". But I'm really bad on taking and uploading photos. I got enough to do just getting the food to turn out right!


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## jted (Dec 5, 2015)

Dogwalker, Don't let Rick snow you. I have seen his ribs. You won't find prettier ones coming out of a electric smoker Great color and nice pull back.     Jted


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## dogwalker (Dec 5, 2015)

Oh, shoot, guys!  Last night, we were wanting to test the smoker out and cook for the upcoming week, but I didn't think to take pictures!  I do have photos of the Thanksgiving birds.

Here are the results from last night.

1) First, we used a rubs recipe from online, and decided we don't like it; too much paprika and pepper, so we'll look for something else.

2) we dry brined the chicken but forgot to rinse it AND added the rub to it.  Incredibly moist and tender, but a little too salty.  And I wish I could crisp the skin, although I'm the only one here who eats skin.

3) the salmon came out awesome, although personally I'd like it a tad drier (my wife's the opposite).

4) I don't seem to have great luck with pork loin.  It's tender and juicy, but I found the taste kind of bland.

This time, we smoked the salmon differently.  My first time, I laid the salmon directly on the racks, and I thought it was perfect.  This time, wife wanted me to follow this other recipe that has us brine it for 20 minutes in salty water, then let it dry for two hours, and then put it on aluminum foil with the edges folded up so we could put in some lemon juice (it said lime juice, but we had only lemons).

Taste was fantastic, but it was a little "wet" and less "crispy" (for lack of a better word) to me.

Temps

- smoked everything at 220 (smoked salmon separately just because we were letting it dry two hours)

- for chicken and pork, used mix of cherry and maple

- spatchcocked the chicken

- removed chicken when breast was at 150 and thigh was at 165, let it rest about 10 minutes

- removed pork loin when it hit 140, let it rest 25 minutes in foil

I think I should have added more smoke for at least the pork, I think that would have helped.  I didn't add smoke very long at all, probably 90 minutes total?  Then I was just slow-cooking.

When I cooked the salmon, I added cherry smoke for about 45 minutes, because the salmon cooked pretty quickly.  Removed it at 140, too.

**** I would love any suggestions on how to improve, including choices of wood!  ***

Fun stuff!


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## daricksta (Dec 5, 2015)

jted said:


> Dogwalker, Don't let Rick snow you. I have seen his ribs. You won't find prettier ones coming out of a electric smoker Great color and nice pull back.     Jted


And this, Jted, is why I keep you on the payroll!

Dogwalker, despite the danger of making this a Mutual Admiration Society, I've seen photos of Jted's ribs and they're just as pretty as mine with the same pull back. His other smoked meats look just as good. He's given me some great tips which have helped improve my Q.

Darn this is frustrating. It's cold, wet, and windy here in western Washington. I wish it was springtime so I could roll both my MES and my Weber charcoal grill out of the garage.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 5, 2015)

Dogwalker,

Sounds like you're doing pretty good now!!!

I don't know if you already had this, but the link below can give you a lot of tips when using an MES:

Just click on *"Bear's Step by Steps"*.

Bear


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## meatpacker (Dec 7, 2015)

So inform me as to how you or what you do differently.


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## jted (Dec 8, 2015)

meatpacker said:


> So inform me as to how you or what you do differently.


Meatpacker, Most folks that have used a smoker for awhile understand that Bear and his work in providing tips and analysis is highly informative. In his steps by step page you will see lots and lots of recipes with tips. Take it for what it is worth.  Jted


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