# Masterbuilt Tripping GFI Outlet



## Braz (Aug 4, 2020)

Well, dang. Uncovered my MBS this morning, set the PID controller to 250 and let it come up to temp. Then I put in two butts and lit the AMAZN pellet smoker and waited for the box to come back up to temp. Before it got there it tripped the GFI. First time that has ever happened. Tried several outlets on the same protected circuit with the same result. I took the PID out of the loop and tried the smoker by itself with the same result. It's been rainy and humid the last few days but I think if it was a humidity problem it would have happened immediately, not after a couple hours of operation. I'd welcome any suggestions as to troubleshooting the problem.

I dug the old propane smoker box out of the barn, cleaned the cobwebs out and moved the butts into it. It is humming along nicely using my Amazen Tube Smoker. Still, it was a PITA transferring everything from the back deck to the barn apron. I got yelled at for dripping grease as I went through the kitchen from the deck to the side door. It's the price you pay.


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## normanaj (Aug 4, 2020)

From what I've been reading lately its usually something grounding out or something corroded.This is definitely 

 tallbm
 time.


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## tallbm (Aug 4, 2020)

Braz said:


> Well, dang. Uncovered my MBS this morning, set the PID controller to 250 and let it come up to temp. Then I put in two butts and lit the AMAZN pellet smoker and waited for the box to come back up to temp. Before it got there it tripped the GFI. First time that has ever happened. Tried several outlets on the same protected circuit with the same result. I took the PID out of the loop and tried the smoker by itself with the same result. It's been rainy and humid the last few days but I think if it was a humidity problem it would have happened immediately, not after a couple hours of operation. I'd welcome any suggestions as to troubleshooting the problem.
> 
> I dug the old propane smoker box out of the barn, cleaned the cobwebs out and moved the butts into it. It is humming along nicely using my Amazen Tube Smoker. Still, it was a PITA transferring everything from the back deck to the barn apron. I got yelled at for dripping grease as I went through the kitchen from the deck to the side door. It's the price you pay.



Well its time to trouble shoot the connectors on the MES ad the ground connection.

If they look good then my best bet is that your element is starting to wear out some.  I'm not well versed with the element resistance and GFI behavior but my understanding is that there is something with the flow that is happening through the element that the GFI things is bad so it trips, where if you put it on a non GFI outlet things work without any craziness.

So someone who understands elements and GFI and safety in this case can speak up a bit more to it but I THINK (be sure to double check) that you would be fine on a regular outlet in this case where the element is working but has some wear causing ti to trip the GFI.

Hopefully someone else chimes in to give u better info than I have :)


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## SecondHandSmoker (Aug 4, 2020)

Yep.  Norm and Tall have good points about it  possibly being an issue with the element.
Other than that, it could be the GFI circuit itself. 
Is the circuit protected by a GFI breaker or just a GFI outlet?


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## chopsaw (Aug 4, 2020)

tallbm said:


> If they look good then my best bet is that your element is starting to wear out some. I'm not well versed with the element resistance and GFI behavior


I've said this before , and it doesn't get much attention ( that's fine ) , but I had this same thing with mine . Got worse and worse . I made sure it was not going to ground with an ohm meter . The element itself checked  at 2.5 . Should be around 18 .* When the flow of current is to fast the GFCI believes it is going to ground and will trip after a few seconds .* 
I just had to replace mine last week  . Checked each side of the element back to the case . Showed open both sides . Replaced with new , works great . 
Pulled the old one . No breaks , burns or hot spots .


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## chopsaw (Aug 4, 2020)

tallbm said:


> So someone who understands elements and GFI and safety in this case can speak up a bit more to it but I THINK (be sure to double check) that you would be fine on a regular outlet in this case where the element is working but has some wear causing ti to trip the GFI.


I would agree with this . In the event it trips the breaker ( my guess is it won't ) then you have other issues .


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## JC in GB (Aug 4, 2020)

Sounds like you have a leaking element.  A new element will likely fix the issue.

If you can run the burner for an hour off the AC mains, the element will dry out.  An element that has moisture incursion can trip the GFCI.  If it still trips after drying the element, the insulation is likely broken down and is leaking enough current to trip the GFCI.

My $0.02

JC


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## Braz (Aug 4, 2020)

Good info everyone. Like Chopsaw, mine does not trip immediately but does after a few seconds. Because of the location I didn't test it on a non GFI circuit. I'll give that a try and see what happens (now, where did I put that 10ga extension cord?). Won't be today though. Thanks everyone.


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## chopsaw (Aug 4, 2020)

Just take it in the house and plug it in . You're already in trouble .


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## smokeymose (Aug 4, 2020)

This is one of the reasons I gave up on the electric smoker. I'd been using the MES for a few months and then in the middle of a cook the GFI outlet on the patio just stopped working. It didn't trip, just stopped working. So did the ones in the bathrooms and the front porch. All one circuit. When an electrician came to replace 3 outlets (which were cooked) he pointed straight at the MES when I asked him what caused it. Keep in mind that the GFI circuit was only 14ga wire. I guess in 1988 that was ok....
Apparently it was running just close enough to the max to heat up and not trip. After a while that did it in.
A 20 amp circuit with 12ga wire is the way to go.


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## PAS (Aug 5, 2020)

Braz, what is the wattage of your element 800 or 1200?


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## Steve H (Aug 5, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> When the flow of current is to fast the GFCI believes it is going to ground and will trip after a few seconds .



Correct. It is called  impedance. How much resistance is detected in a flow of electricity. More precisely, current. So, if a element is starting to break down. It can cause a GFIC trip. But a normal grounded circuit wouldn't detect this. Is it dangerous?  Under the wrong circumstances it could be. It is a better idea to replace the element.


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## chopsaw (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve H said:


> It is called impedance.


Steve , thank you . I appreciate that . I think this occurs with alot of MES ' and gets over looked .


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> Just take it in the house and plug it in . You're already in trouble .


Ha! I'm always in trouble for something.


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

Taking all your advice, I tried it on a non GFI circuit and it worked fine. I let it run for a while, taking it from 80f to 200f with no problems. So I conclude that the element is going bad. I ordered a new one and will also make sure the connections are good when I install the new one. Also, it is on a 20 amp circuit and fairly new construction so I assume 12ga wiring per code. The good news is that moving the pork butts to the gasser worked just fine and gave me the chance to use the Amazen smoker tube for the first time.

Thanks for all the help guys.


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## cmayna (Aug 5, 2020)

Braz,
Are you using an Auber PID?   If so, is the element connected directly to it?   Is the smoker a MES30 or MES40?   I've has so much good luck with my MES40,  I'm just waiting for something like this to happen.


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

PAS said:


> Braz, what is the wattage of your element 800 or 1200?


1200. It's a 40" one.


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

cmayna said:


> Braz,
> Are you using an Auber PID?   If so, is the element connected directly to it?   Is the smoker a MES30 or MES40?   I've has so much good luck with my MES40,  I'm just waiting for something like this to happen.


Yes, Auber PID, MES 40 with the rewire as described by Tallbm. With that and the mailbox mod I am very happy with my setup and consider this just a maintenance thing. New element is about $35. At least when it happens to yours you'll know what to look for.


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## chopsaw (Aug 5, 2020)

Braz
 I just did mine in the 30 . This tip may or may not help . There's a ground wire that sits behind the mounting bracket . I've read some guys struggle a bit putting it back together . Used a seal pic to align the ground wire with the mounting screw . Put the gasket on the element . Slide the whole thing into place and attach the element bracket to the case and tighten  . Pull the pic out and put the screw thru ground wire .
Makes it simple . I think some try to hook the ground wire first . I used an alignment tool , and did it last .


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## cmayna (Aug 5, 2020)

You mentioned that you took the Auber PID out of the loop as a test.  Was this ending up with you plugging the element directly to your GFI outlet, totally bypassing any controllers?


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## dr k (Aug 5, 2020)

If you have an A/C volt meter you can touch one probe to the  body and the other to something metal and see how much voltage is shorting. Your shoes maybe insulating you enough not to shock you when opening the door/touching the smoker.


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## Steve H (Aug 5, 2020)

dr k said:


> If you have an A/C volt meter you can touch one probe to the  body and the other to something metal and see how much voltage is shorting. Your shoes maybe insulating you enough not to shock you when opening the door/touching the smoker.


Only if the other metal you are touching is grounded from another source. You can also pick this up with a low voltage non-contact detector.


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

cmayna said:


> You mentioned that you took the Auber PID out of the loop as a test.  Was this ending up with you plugging the element directly to your GFI outlet, totally bypassing any controllers?


Yes. That will put full power to the heat element and could result in a total meltdown if left on for a long time. I only did it long enough to see if it tripped the GFI. Took about four seconds.


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## Braz (Aug 5, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> Braz
> I just did mine in the 30 . This tip may or may not help . There's a ground wire that sits behind the mounting bracket . I've read some guys struggle a bit putting it back together . Used a seal pic to align the ground wire with the mounting screw . Put the gasket on the element . Slide the whole thing into place and attach the element bracket to the case and tighten  . Pull the pic out and put the screw thru ground wire .
> Makes it simple ...


Good info. That will save me some frustration. Thanks.


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## bill1 (Aug 8, 2020)

I suggest these rules: 
1. Anything electrical used outside should plug into a GFCI outlet that is occasionally checked with the test button.
2. As the clay-like insulation in most elements is thermally cycled, it develops cracks.  Repeated thermal cycling can cause a small resistive path to develop along these cracks.  Although most of your 10 amps or so is going through the nichrome ribbon element, a couple milliamps passes along these cracks to the metal sleeve of the element.  This element sleeve is grounded to the smoker's case at the "feet" it rests on or at the feedthrough plate where the power wires connect.
3. When this leakage current reaches 5mA it will trip your GFCI.  It seldom happens when you first turn on, things need to heat up and expand first.
4. This is Mother Nature's warning to you:  Order a new element.  If you ignore Her, the next warning could be not-so-friendly.
5. Now 5 mA is not dangerous.  While you wait for that element to arrive, you can:
a) plug the unit into a non-GFCI outlet (extension cord into the house, etc.)  Then you still have your case (which you frequently touch) grounded but you won't trip on 5mA.
b) Keep using the GFCI, but look for the places where the metal element's outer sleeve or it's mounting bulkhead is touching  smoker case ground, and "lift" it by inserting mica, or some insulator suitable for the temperature at that spot.
6. The "cheats" given in step 6 are only for dry locations, with no rain in sight.
7. Install the new element as soon as it arrives.  Mother Nature does not like to be cheated.


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## Braz (Aug 8, 2020)

bill1 said:


> I suggest these rules:  ...


Good information. Thanks.


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## Cajun Smokes (Aug 9, 2020)

This has happened to me 3 times. Each time, drippings had built up on the back of the element. Cleaned it off and was back to cooking without issues. If not plugged direct, the cord will need to be large enough to carry the voltage needed. I use a cord one step larger than recommended by manufacture and had no issues for 2 years now. Found that out the hard way with my Masterbuilt Turkey fryer. Melted the plug into the extension cord. Definitely a lesson learned lol. Dosent sound like your problem but may help someone else down the line. Good luck with the smoker.


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## Jonok (Aug 9, 2020)

To Masterbuilts credit, GFCI issues were the final failure mode on a couple of my previous 40s.  Both were in either manufacturers or sams club extended warranty, and when they started blowing the Gfci, I was immediadately given a check for my purchase price, despite having used the damned things nearly to death, and having received excellent support for all the other stuff I wore out before I had the gfci issues.


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## bill1 (Aug 10, 2020)

I'd be curious to hear if anyone has gotten over 10 years (or even 5 years) out of their electric smoker 1) who's used it more that 20x per year and 2) uses it on a GFCI outlet and 3) hasn't "cheated" by floating the element off the smoker case.  (And PLEASE never use one of these!)  I suspect the average 10yo electric kitchen oven has >5mA of ground leakage current, but of course they're not on GFCI.


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## chopsaw (Aug 10, 2020)

Mines 7 years old . Just changed the element last week . Been outside under a roof since I bought it , plugged into a GFCI . Added an Auber PID last year . I run mine on average twice a week year round . Even if I'm not cooking with it I run it for a couple hours to keep it dried out .


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## MJB05615 (Aug 10, 2020)

My first MES 30 lasted 8 years with no issues until that last time when it stopped working completely, used it about 2-3 times per month year round, ran off GFI and kept in garage when not using.  Currently using MES 40 Gen 1, about 7 years, no issues.  Keep it under a Canvas covered gazebo, with it's own cover.  Added Auber PID last year only to help stabilize temps.  Using it 4-6 times per month year round, running off outside GFI 10 amp outlet.


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## Braz (Aug 10, 2020)

MJB05615 said:


> ... running off outside GFI 10 amp outlet.


I am surprised you can run it off a 10 amp circuit.


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## dr k (Aug 10, 2020)

bill1 said:


> I'd be curious to hear if anyone has gotten over 10 years (or even 5 years) out of their electric smoker 1) who's used it more that 20x per year and 2) uses it on a GFCI outlet and 3) hasn't "cheated" by floating the element off the smoker case.  (And PLEASE never use one of these!)  I suspect the average 10yo electric kitchen oven has >5mA of ground leakage current, but of course they're not on GFCI.


Mines floating but if the resistance wire is shorting to the outer element jacket to the press fitted aluminum mounting bracket at the legs of the element where the ground wire attaches, I figure that a floating element wouldn't help anything.


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## MJB05615 (Aug 10, 2020)

Braz said:


> I am surprised you can run it off a 10 amp circuit.


I'm gonna recheck the amps, but I'm pretty sure it's 10amps.  I'll let you know, it does seem odd that I'm running off 10 amps, and also running my shed (tv, small fan, etc off the same outlet) the last 3 years with no issues.  Maybe it's a 15 amp.  LEt me check and let you know, I'm curious. LOL.


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## bill1 (Aug 10, 2020)

dr k said:


> ...Mines floating but if the resistance wire is shorting to the outer element jacket to the press fitted aluminum mounting bracket at the legs of the element where the ground wire attaches, I figure that a floating element wouldn't help anything.


Ah, so you're saying your element includes a green ground wire connection to the support leg(s).  Yeah, my Rule 5b is kinda' saying it's ok you temporarily disconnect it (and slide something under the leg) as long as you have a replacement element on order and you can't get your cooker to work otherwise. 

This is not exactly good electrical practice, but  you still have an active case ground.  If anything else breaks, falls, shorts, wears out, etc you still have protection against your body being the path to ground.  The exception is from touching an electrically hot element that has _severely _eroded away its internal insulation. (Remember at this point all that's happened is you have a 5mA nuisance short to ground.) But the only way the element gets electrically hot is if it's also getting thermally hot and most people know better than to touch red hot things so I'd argue you still have an "engineered control" in place with my step 5b cheat.


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## raselkirk (Aug 16, 2020)

bill1 said:


> I'd be curious to hear if anyone has gotten over 10 years (or even 5 years) out of their electric smoker 1) who's used it more that 20x per year and 2) uses it on a GFCI outlet and 3) hasn't "cheated" by floating the element off the smoker case.  (And PLEASE never use one of these!)  I suspect the average 10yo electric kitchen oven has >5mA of ground leakage current, but of course they're not on GFCI.



I've had mine right at 10 years, started out using it maybe once a month but for the past couple years, maybe 3x's a month. Cleaned the insides once a year until it got old, maaybe 3x's total. Outside on a covered patio since new, and finally started tripping my GFI circuit. My plan is to try pressure washing the guts and changing the element.



chopsaw said:


> Braz
> I just did mine in the 30 . This tip may or may not help . There's a ground wire that sits behind the mounting bracket . I've read some guys struggle a bit putting it back together . Used a seal pic to align the ground wire with the mounting screw . Put the gasket on the element . Slide the whole thing into place and attach the element bracket to the case and tighten  . Pull the pic out and put the screw thru ground wire .
> Makes it simple . I think some try to hook the ground wire first . I used an alignment tool , and did it last .
> 
> View attachment 457194



Hey Chop, what are the two lug looking items up and outside of the element legs? I couldn't tell from your other two pix...

Thanks!

Russ


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## chopsaw (Aug 16, 2020)

raselkirk said:


> Hey Chop, what are the two lug looking items up and outside of the element legs? I couldn't tell from your other two pix...


Russ  I'm not sure what you're talking about . The element connections ? The connections are turned up at 90 degrees . 

I wouldn't power wash the inside . I would remove the element and look for a worn or burnt spot . 
Check the ground wire behind the element bracket .


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## hoity toit (Aug 16, 2020)

plug it in to a non gfi outlet till it gets warmed up, then put it back on the gfi.  mine does the same thing..,


HT


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## raselkirk (Aug 16, 2020)

chopsaw said:


> Russ  I'm not sure what you're talking about . The element connections ? The connections are turned up at 90 degrees .
> 
> I wouldn't power wash the inside . I would remove the element and look for a worn or burnt spot .
> Check the ground wire behind the element bracket .



The two thing-a-ma-bobs circled in red. My (old & tired) element looks bereft of them. Prolly burnt or worn off.  Are they part of the new element? Looks like they might be studs that pass thru the wall and get nutted on the backside...

Too late, I PW'ed the be-hay-sus out it this morning. After a 4 hr dryout in the sun, it's plugged in and humming right along. Will try later back on the GFI circuit. Mixed bag on the powerclean, it got of all the loose stuff but left the "char". OTOH, judging by the pile of loose stuff, it was dirtier than I thought!

Russ


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## chopsaw (Aug 16, 2020)

raselkirk said:


> The two thing-a-ma-bobs circled in red.


Those are the mounting screws . 
I power washed mine before . The second time I almost didn't get it back . Lol .


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## raselkirk (Aug 18, 2020)

Is this the right element? Looks correct, but it's 3x's what Masterbuilt gets for theirs - if - it's ever in stock...

Russ


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## HBFoxJr (Aug 18, 2020)

Steve H said:


> Correct. It is called  impedance. How much resistance is detected in a flow of electricity. More precisely, current. So, if a element is starting to break down. It can cause a GFIC trip. But a normal grounded circuit wouldn't detect this. Is it dangerous?  Under the wrong circumstances it could be. It is a better idea to replace the element.


I have the same GFI problem.   I have replace the outdoor outlet I plug into and the GFI on my covered porch that feeds it.  On a recent use my MES 20071910 tripped the breaker after 30 minutes or less.  I ran a heavy cord into the house and plugged into the same circuit and all ran well.  More recently the GFI tripped immediately when plugged in.  Ran my cord indoors and worked fine again.  I disconnected the element and can now power on the control.  Testing shows no short and 18 ohms on an 800 watt element.  No corrosion.   Element connected, the GFI trips immediately when the power button is pushed.  That even before a temp can be selected.  Is it the element shorting under a small test current when the power button is pushed?


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## Steve H (Aug 19, 2020)

HBFoxJr said:


> I have the same GFI problem.   I have replace the outdoor outlet I plug into and the GFI on my covered porch that feeds it.  On a recent use my MES 20071910 tripped the breaker after 30 minutes or less.  I ran a heavy cord into the house and plugged into the same circuit and all ran well.  More recently the GFI tripped immediately when plugged in.  Ran my cord indoors and worked fine again.  I disconnected the element and can now power on the control.  Testing shows no short and 18 ohms on an 800 watt element.  No corrosion.   Element connected, the GFI trips immediately when the power button is pushed.  That even before a temp can be selected.  Is it the element shorting under a small test current when the power button is pushed?



With the tests you have performed. I would say that would be the case. I would replace the element.


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## raselkirk (Sep 5, 2020)

Well, bit the bullet and bought the new element off Amazon and it solved the GFI problem. Shame on me, I didn't ohm the new one, but did think to do the old one (18.5 Ω) after pulling it. 

On another note, I've had this box 10 years or so and just now noticed (from behind) that whoever sprayed the foam insulation inside got so carried away that the top and back are bulged out enough that the seams are apart and the electronic panel on top is pushed up away from the box. Oh well, better too much than not enough!

Russ


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## Steve H (Sep 5, 2020)

Good to hear!


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## dr k (Sep 6, 2020)

raselkirk said:


> Well, bit the bullet and bought the new element off Amazon and it solved the GFI problem. Shame on me, I didn't ohm the new one, but did think to do the old one (18.5 Ω) after pulling it.
> 
> On another note, I've had this box 10 years or so and just now noticed (from behind) that whoever sprayed the foam insulation inside got so carried away that the top and back are bulged out enough that the seams are apart and the electronic panel on top is pushed up away from the box. Oh well, better too much than not enough!
> 
> Russ


Split plastic on the top and bottom of the door.


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## bill1 (Sep 6, 2020)

raselkirk said:


> ... I didn't ohm the new one, but did think to do the old one (18.5 Ω) after pulling it...


The cold resistance of an element, terminal-to-terminal, is just a verification you have the correct wattage filament.  120V-squared divided by 18.5 ohms = 800 watts.  
What's tripping the GFCI is terminal-to-case-ground resistance.  5ma at 120V trips the GFCI so that resistance to ground has dropped below 24kilo-ohm when you tripped.  You might want to check that value now on the old one.  A new one should be close to a megohm.  This one might be >24kOhm cold but get less resistive when it heats up.  Still, I'd be curious what the reading is.


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