# Safe Smoking



## eman (Jul 25, 2010)

Food safety Must be a smokers #1 priority!!!

 If you have ever had true food poisoning you will understand why we preach about this subject and why some of us may go overboard about this in some folks opinions.

 It's bad enough if i make myself sick. But to make my family and friends sick because i did something wrong and was to scared or proud or  embarassed to ask for help or was to cheap to throw out an exspensive piece of meat is INEXCUSABLE!

 What may make me ill for a day or two could kill someone with a weak immune system.

  When i smoke i usually fill up my MES 40' . usually between $50 and $100 worth of meat depending on what i'm smoking.

 There is a post here somewhere  where i did 50lbs+ of meat .

 I knew that i had done everything right but i loaded the mes w/ cold meat and my recovery time was so slow that i was worried about the 4 hr safe zone.

 I had allready resolved myself to the fact that i would either have to go to the oven or toss the whole batch.

 Luckily i reached the 140 barrier w/ about 15 min to spare.

 Could i have gone  5 hrs to reach 140 and been ok??

Maybe. But i won't risk my or anyone elses health  on maybe.

 Time for me to get off my soapbox.  Flame on.


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## bmudd14474 (Jul 25, 2010)

Well said. Better safe than sorry.


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## ddave (Jul 25, 2010)

Amen to that, brother. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Having had true food poisoning thanks to a moronic family member who thought her spinach dip would be fine mixed up at home then transported in the back seat of a car for the 3 hour trip to my house, I can attest to the fact that it is no fun.

Dave


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## pops6927 (Jul 25, 2010)

One aspect that is often overlooked is surface and utensil sanitation.  You need to use sanitizer on everything.  What is sanitizer?  Something as simple as clorox at 4 ppm (parts per million) to a gallon of water.  From the Clorox® site:

To sanitize plastic cutting boards, wash or rinse with liquid dishwashing detergent and water. Then soak in a solution using 1 tablespoon of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per gallon of water. Let stand 2 minutes, then air dry.
To sanitize wooden cutting boards, use approximately 3 tablespoons of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per gallon of water to create a sanitizing solution. Wash, wipe, or rinse with dishwashing detergent and water, then apply solution. Let stand

2 minutes. Rinse with a solution of 1 tablespoon of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per gallon of water. Do not rinse or soak overnight.

For cleaning cloths:

Sanitize sponges and dishcloths daily in the sink using ¾ cup Clorox® Regular-Bleach to a gallon of water. Let soak 5 minutes. Rinse and dry.

Always read and follow precautions and usage directions before using cleaning products. Always store cleaning products out of reach of children.

Cross contamination of surfaces is a great way to get sick; cutting up a chicken on a board, then just rinsing off and preparing a fresh salad on it and you're in for troubled times.   Beef juice from a package on the counter, wiping off with a used dishcloth that's full of bacteria and then cutting up some cheese on the same spot and everyone is sick who is a cheddarhead. 

Keep a bucket (like a margarine tub) with hot water and a teaspoon of Clorox® and a cleaning rag in it when preparing food, wiping and sanitizing in between processes, or use ready-made sanitizing solutions available from Clorox® and other companies - wipes, sprays, liquids, dissolvables, etc. 

In a meat room, you can gain a whole extra day of shelf life of your product if you do two things:  1) sanitize cutting boards and machines in between products (cut beef first, sanitize, then pork, sanitize, then chicken last (7 times the bacteria count), sanitize) and tear down and sanitize twice a day; once at lunch time and once at end of cutting.  if I had three meatcutters and myself, 2 would go to lunch while two sanitized, then the other 2 would go to lunch when the first two got back.  We improved our case life and product freshness overwhelmingly well on that program.  And, there was no time wasted doing it because it cut our rewraps down to a third every morning, saving us the time to use to sanitize.  If a steak had a 3 day shelf life by the second day it would lose it's bloom.  Under this program it could stay out an extra day, it's freshness lengthened because of a much lower bacteria count.  Case looked better, rewraps reduced providing more sales and profits, we could cut a little extra for night fill so we gained more missed sales and profits went up and customers (the most important point!) were happier!

Keep your customers (family and friends) happier with great sanitation habits!


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## chefrob (Jul 25, 2010)

great post pops.........i have seen more chances of people getting sick from food contact surfaces than the food it self.


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## duffman (Jul 25, 2010)

Great Advice Guys.


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## nwdave (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, all I can say is that since joining this site, my food handling technique has vastly improved.  I thought I was very careful before but now it's much better.

One question, more of an observation to insure I've got this right.  This is for my personal home use only, not commercial.

On plastic boards, first:  Wash with detergent and hot water.

Rinse off soap. 

Soak in a solution of 1TBS Chlorox / gallon of water for 2 minutes then air dry.

Is the 2 minutes the minimum time but could be longer or is it mandatory of ONLY 2 minutes, then air dry.

Always wondered about the what to do after the sanitize wipe.

Usually I process the meats after a shopping trip and consequently have several different types of meat, i.e. poultry, pork, beef, and salmon if on sale or the boat is in.

I would presume that you also need to treat your utinsels (knives, etc) with the same diligence.  Now I see the need (and the excuse) to keep extra knives ready for the next process.  Always wondered why my step-father had so many similiar knives in his kit.  He's a retired Meat Cutter for Safeway.

An aside to EMAN:  I fully agree with your desire to increase food saftey awareness.  The one thing that drives me up the wall is wandering through stores like Costco, with the food demonstraters hanging out on each corner, handing out samples, watching someone pick up a sample then put it back.  Or some village idiot sneezes on the display and the demonstrater does nothing about it.  I absolutely refuse to touch any of that stuff.  Talk about a breeding ground for possible food poisoning.  Yes, I know the demonstraters have been certified by the local health department, but some of the food just sits around.  Now, I'll get off my soapbox.  And yes, I've suffered the consequences of poor food handling.  Ain't no way I care to repeat that.


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## eman (Jul 25, 2010)

Dave,

 i have to agree w/ you on the food demos.

 I won't eat from any of them .

 i watched one at a local place that alot of us shop at open cooler door that everyone touched to show someone the product with her gloved hand and then serve the sample w/ the same hand.


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## pops6927 (Jul 25, 2010)

The two minutes is the minimum time, but much longer is not doing anything more.  Also, lay out on a CLEAN surface to air dry too!

 


NWDave said:


> One question, more of an observation to insure I've got this right.  This is for my personal home use only, not commercial.
> 
> On plastic boards, first:  Wash with detergent and hot water.
> 
> ...


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## venture (Jul 26, 2010)

As always, Pops comes in with the real dope.

Don't get carried away with the bleach, cause it can cause problems to humans, cutting boards and knife handles.  Use it like Pops said and you will be fine.  A little hand washing goes a long way.  I used to work in hospitals.  80% of hospital (nosocomial) infections could have been prevented with simple hand washing.

The main reason food safety is so extra important to us is that we cook at low temperatures.  With a little common sense, that need not be a problem.  Assuming that our kitchen, counters, cutting boards, knives, and hands are clean that is. Oh, don't forget that nasty sponge or wash rag?  Dump them in the microwave every night until they show some steam.  Just my two cents.


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## nwdave (Jul 26, 2010)

One thing I don't do is use sponges or wash cloths around food prep.  Paper towels and a good scrub brush that gets treated when appropriate.  Unpowdered Nitrile gloves are used religiously and swapped out when shifting between meat groups.

Great advice and deeply appreciated, although unknowingly by the recipients of our smoking efforts.


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## bayouchilehead (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks Bob and Pops,

That topic is something people tend to overlook when dealing with food preperation, myself included. I often stop in the middle of prep time and do a safety check to make sure that I have not overlooked anything in the rush of things. It doesn't take much for bacteria to do its thing and ruin a good meal. I hope everyone reads this and takes heed to those simple rules of cleanliness.

Chet


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## eman (Jul 26, 2010)

After reading Pops comment about prep sanitation .I have one thing to add.

 I use the semi disposable flexable plastic cutting boards on top of my teflon board.

 They are available in multiple colors 2 to 5 in a pakage.

   Notice the comment about colors?  I use different colors for different meats / poultry.

 I do use the clorox mix to sanitize after washing but since i only use green for poultry pink for beef and clear for pork i have removed the chance of cross contamination.


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## nwdave (Jul 26, 2010)

eman said:


> After reading Pops comment about prep sanitation .I have one thing to add.
> 
> I use the semi disposable flexable plastic cutting boards on top of my teflon board.
> 
> ...


Ok, you brought it up....now it's time to pay the piper.  Where can I find some of these semi disposable flexible plastic cutting boards?  In my little town, there's not much chance, similar to that snowball in a very hot place.  Got a link perhaps.  This is something I definitely would like to acquire since I cross meat groups quite frequently.


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## chomper (Jul 26, 2010)

May be a stupid question, but what is the 4 hour safe zone?  From what I can tell, it sounds like the meat needs to get to 140 degrees within 4 hours of being out of the frig to avoid food poisoning?


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## smokinthesmc (Jul 26, 2010)

Ok, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Mise en place. (Everything in it's place.) Being prepared for what you will be working with will keep you from having to go back to get something from the fridge or cabinet in a rush and forgetting what you touched or contaminated. Spice jars are another breeding zone. People touch the meat then grab the spice container then the meat. Then later they put the spice up in the cabinet at room temp. Always put spices in small glass bowls and use  what you touch and throw out any extra. And even as a last check wipe all your sauces in jars and spices with sanitize wipe's or Pop's clorox mixture.

I have been there with the group of once bitten, and swear I will not let that happen to me again.

Thanks for all the great info and advise.


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## eman (Jul 27, 2010)

NWDave said:


> Ok, you brought it up....now it's time to pay the piper.  Where can I find some of these semi disposable flexible plastic cutting boards?  In my little town, there's not much chance, similar to that snowball in a very hot place.  Got a link perhaps.  This is something I definitely would like to acquire since I cross meat groups quite frequently.


I usually get them at wal mart but have found a flea market that has someone selling cheap imported kitchen ware and they have them cheaper than wally world.


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## eman (Jul 27, 2010)

chomper said:


> May be a stupid question, but what is the 4 hour safe zone?  From what I can tell, it sounds like the meat needs to get to 140 degrees within 4 hours of being out of the frig to avoid food poisoning?


 you  are right about the  140/deg.  rule To avoid a higher risk of food bourne illness.

 We have folks here that do not go by it and don't believe in it . But ,I don't think that i want to risk it. The FDA doesn't just grab numbers and times out of thin air.


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## nwdave (Jul 27, 2010)

eman said:


> I usually get them at wal mart but have found a flea market that has someone selling cheap imported kitchen ware and they have them cheaper than wally world.


As if I needed an excuse to go shopping, now I have a good one.  Thanks.

Good mention about the spice containers.  I transfer what ever I'm going to use into plastic shaker cups that have a snap-on lid with holes punched in it.  I have several now just for this purpose.


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## duffman (Jul 27, 2010)

Wow I have gained a ton of knowledge fro this thread. Anybody think about making ti a sitcky?


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## eman (Jul 28, 2010)

While packaging all the meat my wife bought home i tried to think of other points to consider for contamination. I try to wash my hands w/ dawn w/ bleach any time im handling raw meat b4 i touch anything after the meat.But i realized that i kept touching the knobs on my faucet w/ contaminated hands then washed hands
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  There are so many things that can cause problems that we need to watch out for.


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## ak1 (Jul 28, 2010)

So, if the slab of meat I'm cooking only gets to 138 after 4 hrs 10 min's, do I throw it out?


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## eman (Jul 29, 2010)

That close i'd eat it. but would i serve it to others????


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## roksmith (Aug 2, 2010)

It's important to understand the bigger picture rather than relying on a set of numbers.

The food danger zone is indeed 40-140 degrees, but the real danger with BBQ is in letting the meat sit at that temperature after cooking and before you stick the leftovers in the fridge.

If the meat is still cold when it goes in the smoker you shouldn't have a problem.

The major danger with bacteria comes from the surface of the meat. After a few hours in the cooker, the surface of the meat will be out of the danger zone regardless of the internal temp. Smoke also retards the growth of bacteria and acts as a preservative. So, if your smoking meat, the concern isn't so much how long it takes to get there, but where it was when you started.

Since you are cooking to above 165 degrees, the bacteria will be dead.. and if you are starting with cold meat and rolling smoke over it, you will be fine.

Concern yourself more with the food you leave sitting on the counter for hours before deciding to put it in the fridge.

If your meat is room temperature before you decide to begin putting it away.. there's your real danger zone.


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## realtorterry (Aug 2, 2010)

what if you have it in the fridge for a week in a zip lock bag? will it still be good? can you put it back in the frezzer?


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## smokinthesmc (Aug 2, 2010)

Ok so whats the general rule of thumb for having food sit out before going into the refridge. I'm not talking about like a bowl of fresh made mayo from scratch sitting on the countertop for a condiment. But say a roast after slicing half of it and beginning to eat, then desert, then some chit chat. How long can you go and not even be concerned. After it drops back under say 140 Deg. till you need to start chilling it in the fridge.


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## squirrel (Aug 2, 2010)

Great stuff guys! Food safety IS a life or death situation for me. While my immune system is improving, it's still at a critical level and I don't eat out unless I know the chef personally and he knows my situation. I have had to turn down wonderful looking dishes from friends and family because I just can't chance it. Sad, but true. With that said, I'm going to admit that I am a big ole fat food snob. I don't eat out, not only because of health reasons, but because I think (here's the snob part) I can prepare equally or better tasting food than most places (especially the so-called BBQ joints in town). I'm also ashamed to admit it, but I buy paper towels by the motherload pack.

Also, my doctor recommended the UV-C air sanitizer and UV-C light wand for my kitchen. Worth the money if you're a germaphobe like myself.


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## scarbelly (Aug 3, 2010)

Squirrel said:


> Great stuff guys! Food safety IS a life or death situation for me. While my immune system is improving, it's still at a critical level and I don't eat out unless I know the chef personally and he knows my situation. I have had to turn down wonderful looking dishes from friends and family because I just can't chance it. Sad, but true. With that said, I'm going to admit that I am a big ole fat food snob. I don't eat out, not only because of health reasons, but because I think (here's the snob part) I can prepare equally or better tasting food than most places (especially the so-called BBQ joints in town). I'm also ashamed to admit it, but I buy paper towels by the motherload pack.
> 
> Also, my doctor recommended the UV-C air sanitizer and UV-C light wand for my kitchen. Worth the money if you're a germaphobe like myself.


I totally understand the food snob comment - we rarely go out to dinner and we are much happier for it - our food normally is way better than any restaurant around here

I truly love your posts and have saved some of them for future use

BTW - I sent you a PM if you get a chance to answer


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## meateater (Aug 3, 2010)

Squirrel, I'm with you on the eating out, I don't.


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## roksmith (Aug 3, 2010)

realtorterry said:


> what if you have it in the fridge for a week in a zip lock bag? will it still be good? can you put it back in the frezzer?


Not according to foodsafety.gov

Now.. having said that, we all know that there is always some slop time built in to those numbers. The USDA says 3-4 days for leftover cooked meat in the fridge. That number will slide a little based on how well the food was handled prior to putting it in the fridge. If the food is still above 165 when it goes in the chill chest you can probably expect it will last a little longer. If it's room temp going in, you can expect less. Certainly ALWAYS fully reheat prior to eating. The issue won't be so much with the bacteria, because you will kill those on the reheat, but the toxins left behind. Can't get rid of those by reheating.



 


SmokintheSMC said:


> Ok so whats the general rule of thumb for having food sit out before going into the refridge. I'm not talking about like a bowl of fresh made mayo from scratch sitting on the countertop for a condiment. But say a roast after slicing half of it and beginning to eat, then desert, then some chit chat. How long can you go and not even be concerned. After it drops back under say 140 Deg. till you need to start chilling it in the fridge.


You'll need to get it in the fridge earlier than you might think. Once it drops below 140, your clock starts.. the food should be cooled within 2 hours... one hour is it's above 90 degrees.


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## ak1 (Aug 3, 2010)

That's interesting,

On checking Foodsafety.org, the recommendation for chicken is 165.

Looking at Health Canada website the recommendation is 165 for pieces, but 185 for whole chicken.


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## ak1 (Aug 3, 2010)

realtorterry said:


> what if you have it in the fridge for a week in a zip lock bag? will it still be good? can you put it back in the frezzer?


No. Every recommendation I've seen states that you should never refreeze food. Once it's thawed, it needs to be used.

I'm assuming that you are talking about raw food. If the food was cooked, then there is a chance that it would be OK after a week in the fridge, but it's not a chance I'd want to take.


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

My understanding is that you don't refreeze raw food, but that once it's cooked, you can refreeze it for later use.  We throw everything out if it hasn't been eaten in 3-4 days.   Raw (fresh) meats get tossed if they aren't cooked or frozen within 3 days.  

We never leave food sitting out more than 30 minutes or so, at a meal.  Pretty much as soon as everyone's finished eating, we cover the perishables and put them in the fridge.   If we have company, I still get up and put food away, and then return to the table.  

I also say you should trust your nose.  If something smells funky or putrid--even if it's only been in the fridge for a couple of days--throw it away.  Cheeses would be an exception, of course.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I do NOT take chances with my family's health.  I want my kids to be able to graze the fridge and be safe eating or cooking whatever is in there--so I toss leftovers in the trash a couple of times a week.


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## eman (Aug 13, 2010)

Garbage day is wed and sat here ,So on tue and fri nights anything leftover in the fridge gets tossed.


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## bobcaat (Aug 13, 2010)

The USDA changed their guidelines on refreezing uncooked meat; it is now considered okay to refreeze previously frozen uncooked meat althought the quality and texture of the meat may suffer due to the loss of moisture.  They also changed their guidelines on rinsing uncooked chicken; they do not recommend rinsing uncooked chicken due to the risk of cross contamination since most people cook chicken well.


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## abigail4476 (Aug 13, 2010)

I looked it up, and you're correct, but it is conditional:

_"Meat and poultry defrosted in the refrigerator may be refrozen before or after cooking.  If thawed by other methods, cook before refreezing." --source_

I think I watched or read something awhile back that said it was more dangerous to contaminate your sink area by frequently rinsing raw meat than to use the meat without rinsing.   

refrozen before or after cooking. If thawed by other

methods, cook before refreezing.

refrozen before or after cooking. If thawed by other

methods, cook before refreezing."


Bobcaat said:


> The USDA changed their guidelines on refreezing uncooked meat; it is now considered okay to refreeze previously frozen uncooked meat althought the quality and texture of the meat may suffer due to the loss of moisture.  They also changed their guidelines on rinsing uncooked chicken; they do not recommend rinsing uncooked chicken due to the risk of cross contamination since most people cook chicken well.


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## justpassingthru (Aug 13, 2010)

On the other hand.....,

ALL of our meat is frozen when we buy it, chicken quarters come in 28# boxes (all from American processors) we defrost overnight in the laundry tub, put four in a zip-loc and refreeze, sirloin roasts, defrost and cut into steaks then refreeze, chucks we defrost, grind into hamburger and bag 1# in zip-locs, lamb and pork chops, 25-30 to a bag, defrost enough to separate and then 5-6 to a zip-loc.

I don't mean to dispute the facts, but there are 150 000 people on this island (not counting the restaurants) all doing the same thing and I haven't heard of any cases of food poisoning in 20 years.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for safe food handling and I have learned a lot here and have changed how I handle the food, and I don't want to argue or dispute the established ways of the board, ......it just causes me to wonder.

Gene


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## eman (Aug 13, 2010)

JustPassingThru said:


> On the other hand.....,
> 
> ALL of our meat is frozen when we buy it, chicken quarters come in 28# boxes (all from American processors) we defrost overnight in the laundry tub, put four in a zip-loc and refreeze, sirloin roasts, defrost and cut into steaks then refreeze, chucks we defrost, grind into hamburger and bag 1# in zip-locs, lamb and pork chops, 25-30 to a bag, defrost enough to separate and then 5-6 to a zip-loc.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt what you say. The USDA and FDA  regs are guidelines that they have come up with to keep folks safe. Some may be overkill or they may not. But i know that most govt regs err on the side of caution heavily.


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## justpassingthru (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks eman for not crucifying me, I was a little hesitant to post that.

I hope all who read this understand that I'm not advocating against safe food handling practices, but would you like to see how it is in a third world country?

Remember when I posted this picture of the roulottes in downtown Papeete?







Take a close look behind Mr Kim's right hand, do you see his plastic cutting board, the paper wrapped handle is his meat cleaver, he cooks from 5:00 PM until 2:00 AM, he cuts up his, raw chicken, beef, pork, and sausage AND bok choy, onions, carrots, cabbage, bell peppers, and tomatoes on it, he uses the cleaver to scrape off any thing left and then wipes the cleaver off with the towel that is in his left hand, he's been cooking there for about 5 years, 6 nights a week, and thinks it's perfectly safe and normal.

Sooo, all of you in the States be grateful you have safety regulations to follow.

Gene


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## ak1 (Aug 20, 2010)

JustPassingThru said:


> Thanks eman for not crucifying me, I was a little hesitant to post that.
> 
> I hope all who read this understand that I'm not advocating against safe food handling practices, but would you like to see how it is in a third world country?
> 
> ...


I would ask this; Has anyone gotten sick from Mr. Kims food? You said yourself that he's cooked for 5 yrs and have not mentioned any issue with the food.So what is the problem?


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## nwdave (Aug 22, 2010)

The problem is that while Mr Kim might be able to get away with it, anyone who might contemplate emulating his technique might miss something he doesn't show and then what've you got?  I wouldn't want to be sitting at that table.  I've had food poisoning once, and thank you very much, I'm not interested in repeating that event, ever again.  There are far too many incompetent talking heads with beautiful hair misleading people onto the path of poor food handling techniques, so when someone says:  Hey, wait a minute, that's not a safe technique and we should look at the proper method, you counter with a:  Hey, that's ok, he's been doing it for years and hasn't "killed"(my insert word) any one yet...Therefore..... 

So, how do you like playing Devil's Advocate?  Is it really making a contribution to our food safety awareness that many of us "beginner's" are trying to learn or do you just like to nitpick everything to a contrary point for the "fun" of it? If it is, please point it out because I guess in my poor old feeble mind, I'm missing your point.  You need not respond, you'll just waffle with a "Oh, I didn't mean that, I, uh, was just saying.....".  Gotcha pal.

In case you miss my point, most of us (well, ME for sure)  consider food handling and food safety to be of paramount importance.  I'll rely on the word as spoken by a "certified in more training sessions than we care to count" individual than someone who prefers to not bother to see the reasoning or thinks his/her way is cute and just so promotional on some airhead cooking show.

Now, I'll step off my soapbox with the knowledge that I will in no way use a technique that might endanger the health of one of my family or guests at one of my too infrequent cookout gatherings.

Admin, I stand ready for any admonishment you care to render. 

~NWDave


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## eman (Aug 22, 2010)

I have worked in some third world countries and on some of the islands and their are no real food regs that are set for the food vendors to follow.

 I'm sure that the natives of these places have been exsposed to certain bacterium and bugs all their lives so that they may have built up an immunity to some things that would make us ill.

 i would allways watch where i ate while outside the USA . usually let somebody else be the guinea pig. Have to watch when ya get down in central and south america, They get a kick out of selling tourist chicken (Iguana) to the unsuspecting tourist.


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## ak1 (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that this was directed at me, so I'll reply.

Last I checked, this forum was a place for posting ideas & opinions. I've posted mine in various threads and have given reasons for my ways. You can agree, or you can not. It's your call. There are many members in various countries on this forum, with different regulations. As well, various members have different ideas as to cooking methods. Some may feel safe to some & some may not. It is an individual call IMO. 

Personally, I really don't care whether you agree with me or not, because that isn't the issue, what the issue is, is whether the method of preparing the food is effective and safe, based on science, regardless of one's opinion or various guidelines.

When, I see a recipe or a method of cooking that may be different, I will try it, and I will post the results whatever they are. 

Also, you mentioned food safety awareness. I'm pretty aware myself, I just don't blindly hide behind regulations. Unlike some, I make an effort to buy locally grown product from farmers who care how their animals are raised. And when I post, I post based on personal experience, not on innuendo or some website(except for definitions).

p.s.. Next time, if you want to call me out, at least have the cojones to be direct about it. 
 


NWDave said:


> The problem is that while Mr Kim might be able to get away with it, anyone who might contemplate emulating his technique might miss something he doesn't show and then what've you got?  I wouldn't want to be sitting at that table.  I've had food poisoning once, and thank you very much, I'm not interested in repeating that event, ever again.  There are far too many incompetent talking heads with beautiful hair misleading people onto the path of poor food handling techniques, so when someone says:  Hey, wait a minute, that's not a safe technique and we should look at the proper method, you counter with a:  Hey, that's ok, he's been doing it for years and hasn't "killed"(my insert word) any one yet...Therefore.....
> 
> So, how do you like playing Devil's Advocate?  Is it really making a contribution to our food safety awareness that many of us "beginner's" are trying to learn or do you just like to nitpick everything to a contrary point for the "fun" of it? If it is, please point it out because I guess in my poor old feeble mind, I'm missing your point.  You need not respond, you'll just waffle with a "Oh, I didn't mean that, I, uh, was just saying.....".  Gotcha pal.
> 
> ...


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