# Stpp



## ramatack (Jan 1, 2022)

I am going to brine some hams using a variation on pops brine and want to use stpp with it. I will take out enough brine for each ham(10%) then inject, can I then just put them in the bucket with the brine or should I add stpp to the brine in the bucket. There two big to get in the 2 1/2 gallon bags I have and would rather do this way


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## Brokenhandle (Jan 2, 2022)

HAM....  easy peasy... no mess.... DISCLAIMER.. MONEY...
					

I've been injecting hams to cure for some time...  decided I needed a needle to get to all parts from one side...  No flipping, no turning, here it its....  5" , #14 gauge blunt/sharpened needle..   Found this picnic at w-m that has NOT been injected... The paper towel is sprayed with vinegar...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## Brokenhandle (Jan 2, 2022)

Read through that thread...the sttp needs to be added first or it will not dissolve. 

Ryan


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## ramatack (Jan 2, 2022)

Brokenhandle said:


> Read through that thread...the sttp needs to be added first or it will not dissolve.
> 
> Ryan


Thanks,


Brokenhandle said:


> Read through that thread...the sttp needs to be added first or it will not dissolve.
> 
> Ryan


Thanks, I butchered these hogs so no bag and two big for 2 1/2 gallon bags also would prefer to put in bucket so there all in one spot( I have 5 to go. I done the last three using this method, and they turned out great. I have to inject no matter what and was wondering, If I inject with stpp can I put them in pops brine or would it dilute the stpp to much. My thought is wouldn't the stuff I inject pretty much stay there because there so close in ingredients, a little extra salt from the sttp. That way they would be submerged. I will continue to use daveomacks recipe for small especially single ones


Brokenhandle said:


> Read through that thread...the sttp needs to be added first or it will not dissolve.
> 
> Ryan


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## Brokenhandle (Jan 2, 2022)

Not that familiar with sttp myself, only used it once. But have used pop's brine alot,  and it works great! Maybe 

 chopsaw
  or 

 indaswamp
  could chime in and answer your question better than me.

Ryan


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## chopsaw (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't have an answer for you question . I have used Pop's brine on poultry injected and soaked . I inject out of the gallon mix . No STPP in the mix . 
I think you can do it , you just have to know how much of the phosphate to add to the amount of brine  , inject then soak would be my guess , but that's just a guess . 

I just use the injection as Dave figured it , no soak .


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## thirdeye (Jan 2, 2022)

I started using the 

 daveomak
 injection cure about 18 months ago and detailed several different cooks by adding info to the same thread. It's a long read but I have photos of butt hams, shoulder picnic ham, and loin ham. This is the easiest and best tasting ham curing method I have ever used.  HERE is that thread.


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## ramatack (Jan 4, 2022)

chopsaw said:


> I don't have an answer for you question . I have used Pop's brine on poultry injected and soaked . I inject out of the gallon mix . No STPP in the mix .
> I think you can do it , you just have to know how much of the phosphate to add to the amount of brine  , inject then soak would be my guess , but that's just a guess .
> 
> I just use the injection as Dave figured it , no soak .


Ok, my question is can I just take enough of pops brine (10%) for each ham add stpp to that and put that into unaltered pops brine to keep submerged. They will be laying on one another and I worry it will force some out. I just figured that they would be so close in ingredients that most of the stpp would stay were I put it. if it did equalize what would be a problem


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## chopsaw (Jan 4, 2022)

ramatack said:


> Ok, my question is


Yeah , I understand your question . I just don't know if that works or not . If you dip from the mix of Pop's and inject My opinion is you still need some transfer to get a proper cure . There would be an amount of phosphate to mix into Pop's brine per gallon then inject that would be the right way to do it . I don't do it that way , so I don't know what that is . 
I do about one ham a month using Dave's injection . If yours  are big  , they make food safe bags  that fit a 5 gallon bucket .


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 4, 2022)

ramatack said:


> I am going to brine some hams using a variation on pops brine and want to use stpp with it. I will take out enough brine for each ham(10%) then inject, can I then just put them in the bucket with the brine or should I add stpp to the brine in the bucket. There two big to get in the 2 1/2 gallon bags I have and would rather do this way


You need to add the phosphate to the brine before injection. 6 oz. To one gallon of water. This needs to be the first ingredient into the brine and dissolved. Then add sugar and dissolve then add salt and dissolve then cure #1 and dissolve.

Phosphates do not play well with other ingredients, so it must be dissolved in clean water then the other ingredients will still dissolve just fine.

edit to add:
STPP doesn’t like cold water very well. Warm the water to tepid maybe 90* and it will dissolve much better.


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2022)

Ram, morninig...   Weigh out 10% of the ham weight in distilled water..   Add the STPP, dissolve, then the other ingredients as listed..
Lets call it an "internal brine"...  No need to wait or assume all the ingredients get to the bone...  You have put them there..  Bag the hams then refrigerate for up to 2 weeks at ~ 36F....
Some folks have tried and noted using veggie stock, other than the one listed, does not give a decent flavor profile to the ham...   Use only listed ingredients...  
No need to submerge in brine...  Everything the pork needs to make a great ham is already inside the leg...


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2022)

(1) HAM from fresh picnics.. update 10/21 ... MONEY .. | Smoking Meat Forums - The Best Barbecue Discussion Forum On Earth! 

(1) Picnic shoulder into a ham..... 9/13 update MONEY !!!! | Smoking Meat Forums - The Best Barbecue Discussion Forum On Earth!


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2022)

Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Powder (STPP), Food grade, Kosher (chemicalstore.com) 

Sodium Tripolyphosphate – Craft Butchers' Pantry (butcherspantry.com)


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## chopsaw (Jan 5, 2022)

R
 ramatack
 search for food grade brine bags . One size I saw was 22 " x 26 " . Follow Dave's injection and bag it up . 
If I'm reading right , you have done the injection on smaller stuff , but what you have is to big to fit in a zip lock bag .


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## ramatack (Jan 5, 2022)

chopsaw said:


> R
> ramatack
> search for food grade brine bags . One size I saw was 22 " x 26 " . Follow Dave's injection and bag it up .
> If I'm reading right , you have done the injection on smaller stuff , but what you have is to big to fit in a zip lock bag .


Yes to big,I really like Dave's process. WithTwo hams I was able to squeeze into vac bags but the third was to big so I put in a 2.5 gallon bag but after 3 days or so a bone poked a hole in it so had to rebag, lost a little brine but no big deal. When my food saver dies the next one will be a 15" model, vacmaster or weston


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## chopsaw (Jan 5, 2022)

Cool . I thought I knew what you were getting at . I've been buying pork cushion from Gordon's food service and using those . Dave taught me this process and I've been doing them ever since . Picnic , butts , loins and now the cushions . The cushion has a texture like the picnic , which I like . 
I've used it on whole chickens also . Makes the best pulled smoked chicken . 
Post 'em up when they're done .


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## ramatack (Jan 5, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Ram, morninig...   Weigh out 10% of the ham weight in distilled water..   Add the STPP, dissolve, then the other ingredients as listed..
> Lets call it an "internal brine"...  No need to wait or assume all the ingredients get to the bone...  You have put them there..  Bag the hams then refrigerate for up to 2 weeks at ~ 36F....
> Some folks have tried and noted using veggie stock, other than the one listed, does not give a decent flavor profile to the ham...   Use only listed ingredients...
> No need to submerge in brine...  Everything the pork needs to make a great ham is already inside the leg...


Thank you, I've done three your way but didn't have the stpp yet, I have 4 or 5 to go not sure because my son has some in his freezer. The ones I have are big so was thinking of putting them in my 10 gallon brine bucket. I was thinking of injecting them with stpp using pops brine then just put hams in straight pops brine no stpp, I was thinking they would be so close in ingredients that stpp would stay in the hams or should I add stpp to the whole brine. Loved the ham I did using your process had to use the salt free chicken stock, couldn't find the vegy but have it now. Thanks for the recipe. Your the man


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## ramatack (Jan 5, 2022)

chopsaw said:


> Cool . I thought I knew what you were getting at . I've been buying pork cushion from Gordon's food service and using those . Dave taught me this process and I've been doing them ever since . Picnic , butts , loins and now the cushions . The cushion has a texture like the picnic , which I like .
> I've used it on whole chickens also . Makes the best pulled smoked chicken .
> Post 'em up when they're done .


Whats a cushions, I've heard of them but not sure, I'm not good on these phones but will try and post. Think I still have pics from my smoker build from 10 years ago lol


chopsaw said:


> Cool . I thought I knew what you were getting at . I've been buying pork cushion from Gordon's food service and using those . Dave taught me this process and I've been doing them ever since . Picnic , butts , loins and now the cushions . The cushion has a texture like the picnic , which I like .
> I've used it on whole chickens also . Makes the best pulled smoked chicken .
> Post 'em up when they're done .


Also thanks for the idea, I have 2 broiler chickens I raised and was just gona brine and smoke, I'll use the stpp on them, how long with them. With pops brine I would inject and smoke after 5 or 6 days


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## chopsaw (Jan 5, 2022)

ramatack said:


> Whats a cushions


Pork cushion comes from the same area as the picnic . 





						Pork cushion ham update
					

Got the hams all smoked up yesterday . Got them out and rinsed on Weds. overnight in the fridge to smoke on Thurs.  One night turned into 2 , and smoked Friday morning . Not sure about the 2 night dry in the fridge , but couldn't be helped .  By habit I hung in the smoker to dry . Didn't need...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com
				




Here's a thread on the chicken . It's best pulled . For a knife and fork meal I do Pop's brine with a half tsp of lemon extract per gallon . Injected and soaked overnight , then cooked on my kettle hot and fast . 





						Whole smoked chicken / Dave's injection method
					

Only way you will ever understand how good this is , is to try it . Fantastic .  Injected and in bag 24 hours , then dry in fridge 24 hours . 48 hours cure time will give it a hammy flavor .  Ready for smoker .   I battle MES 30 temps for some reason .  Finally got an even 240 , took about 3 1/2...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## SmokinEdge (Jan 5, 2022)

ramatack said:


> Yes to big,I really like Dave's process. WithTwo hams I was able to squeeze into vac bags but the third was to big so I put in a 2.5 gallon bag but after 3 days or so a bone poked a hole in it so had to rebag, lost a little brine but no big deal. When my food saver dies the next one will be a 15" model, vacmaster or weston


Food saver makes expandable bags that open up to about 14” wide but are pleated on the sides so you cut the bag about 5” longer  than needed to allow the pleats to come back to 11” and seal on a regular 12” seal bar. Pretty handy.


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## ramatack (Jan 5, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> Food saver makes expandable bags that open up to about 14” wide but are pleated on the sides so you cut the bag about 5” longer  than needed to allow the pleats to come back to 11” and seal on a regular 12” seal bar. Pretty handy.


Thanks, I didn't know that. Gona order some now


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## thirdeye (Jan 6, 2022)

ramatack said:


> Ok, my question is can I just take enough of pops brine (10%) for each ham add stpp to that and put that into unaltered pops brine to keep submerged. They will be laying on one another and I worry it will force some out.* I just figured that they would be so close in ingredients that most of the stpp would stay were I put it.* if it did equalize what would be a problem



When I corn beef or a pork butt I do a combination brine (injection + cover brine) like you are talking about.... and here is my process with AmesPhos in the method.
1.  Make my brine (it has loads of aromatics) so I simmer it one day and chill overnight. 
2. Add Cure #1 to the chilled brine.  
3. Measure an amount of brine equal to 10% of the meat weight, then to that I add AmesPhos at the rate of 1.8 grams/pound of meat. 
4. *Inject the brine from step 3 into the meat, then bag it and refrigerate for at least 10 hours (or overnight).  In my mind, this gives the AmesPhos a bit of a head start, and prevents it from migrating out of the meat.*
5. Next I move the meat into my brine bucket and add the remainder of the chilled brine which will cover the meat. 
6. The meat now cures for 12 to 14 days, agitating by spinning the bucket daily. 

Over the nest 12-14 days, I don't know if some of the AmesPhos is carried away as liquids do their typical exchange, but I'm very satisficed with the end results.  If I didn't use so many aromatics in my corning brine, the 

 daveomak
 injection curing method would work just fine. I just like the 'corned' flavor.


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## ramatack (Jan 6, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> When I corn beef or a pork butt I do a combination brine (injection + cover brine) like you are talking about.... and here is my process with AmesPhos in the method.
> 1.  Make my brine (it has loads of aromatics) so I simmer it one day and chill overnight.
> 2. Add Cure #1 to the chilled brine.
> 3. Measure an amount of brine equal to 10% of the meat weight, then to that I add AmesPhos at the rate of 1.8 grams/pound of meat.
> ...


Yes! That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks so much, wil put in brine next and keep track of everything.


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## thirdeye (Jan 6, 2022)

ramatack said:


> Yes! That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks so much, wil put in brine next and keep track of everything.


For experimentation on my next corned meat, I might try increasing the injected/pumped time to 24+ hours, then moving to the covering brine. 

For many of us... injecting or flavor brining, dry brining, curing brines and dry curing are proven methods for various applications.  Phosphates were something that took me a little while to experiment with.  Commercially, they were in a lot of products I consume. The one product I take the exception with are 'wet' scallops which are dipped in phosphates then frozen..  They hold so much liquid, it's near impossible to skillet sear them.  But, phosphates are in plenty of products we do enjoy. And using them at home is a different platform than the processors use (or restaurants, or competition BBQ cooks) to enhance their products.


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## ramatack (Jan 7, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> For experimentation on my next corned meat, I might try increasing the injected/pumped time to 24+ hours, then moving to the covering brine.
> 
> For many of us... injecting or flavor brining, dry brining, curing brines and dry curing are proven methods for various applications.  Phosphates were something that took me a little while to experiment with.  Commercially, they were in a lot of products I consume. The one product I take the exception with are 'wet' scallops which are dipped in phosphates then frozen..  They hold so much liquid, it's near impossible to skillet sear them.  But, phosphates are in plenty of products we do enjoy. And using them at home is a different platform than the processors use (or restaurants, or competition BBQ cooks) to enhance their products.


That's exactly what I was thinking, I thought I would inject and put on a tray or in bucket overnight then cover with brine the next day. Just glad I'm not the only one. Misery  loves company so they say.lol thanks again


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## jnh2022 (Feb 27, 2022)

New here, and Canadian to make it worse!  I was trying to source  Sodium Tripolyphosphate, and ran into several complications(not available, or exorbitant shipping). Rather than just using up the last of my brainpower googling dead ends, I thought I would ask if anyone knew if this is available in Canada(questions on whether it is banned), or knew if there were any sources that weren't $45 for product and $175 for shipping? Or if there is a substitute food grade product that I should be looking for. TIA.


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## ramatack (Feb 28, 2022)

jnh2022 said:


> New here, and Canadian to make it worse!  I was trying to source  Sodium Tripolyphosphate, and ran into several complications(not available, or exorbitant shipping). Rather than just using up the last of my brainpower googling dead ends, I thought I would ask if anyone knew if this is available in Canada(questions on whether it is banned), or knew if there were any sources that weren't $45 for product and $175 for shipping? Or if there is a substitute food grade product that I should be looking for. TIA.


 why couldn't I buy for you and ship to you, can't cost that much can it? It doesn't weigh that much.


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## DougE (Feb 28, 2022)

ramatack said:


> why couldn't I buy for you and ship to you, can't cost that much can it? It doesn't weigh that much


It would work so long as customs doesn't seize it, which is questionable.


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## jnh2022 (Mar 1, 2022)

ramatack said:


> why couldn't I buy for you and ship to you, can't cost that much can it? It doesn't weigh that much.


Kind of you to offer.  I have continued looking through the forums and found someone with a similar issue before, and the product they found available here was called Curaid.  I am going to check into that, but not until I have finished my Back Bacon project, my next Back Bacon project, found a good price on pellets, done some mods on the Bradley smoker, built a new smokehhouse, and finally tell my wife what I have been up to and how much it cost!  Then I will figure out the phosphate thing when I move onto a 

 daveomak
 injected ham.

There's a bit of time between now and the ham -- I say as the addiction takes hold.


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Mar 1, 2022)

I can't believe how had it is to find frozen Catfish that does not have STPP in it now.  It has its place but not in Catfish!  I don't like frying watered down fish.


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## zwiller (Mar 1, 2022)

STTP in seafood isn't the end of the world.  Pellicle is your friend.  Wife made fun of me at first when I used my little clip on fan but not anymore...  That's popcorn topping I am frying with BTW.


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## daveomak (Mar 1, 2022)

BrianGSDTexoma said:


> I can't believe how had it is to find frozen Catfish that does not have STPP in it now.  It has its place but not in Catfish!  I don't like frying watered down fish.



Anything to increase the weight and make more MONEY ...


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## ramatack (Mar 1, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> For experimentation on my next corned meat, I might try increasing the injected/pumped time to 24+ hours, then moving to the covering brine.
> 
> For many of us... injecting or flavor brining, dry brining, curing brines and dry curing are proven methods for various applications.  Phosphates were something that took me a little while to experiment with.  Commercially, they were in a lot of products I consume. The one product I take the exception with are 'wet' scallops which are dipped in phosphates then frozen..  They hold so much liquid, it's near impossible to skillet sear them.  But, phosphates are in plenty of products we do enjoy. And using them at home is a different platform than the processors use (or restaurants, or competition BBQ cooks) to enhance their products
> Well I ended up doing it a bit different. I weighed the weight of the water/broth and meat,  heated the water/broth and added 3% stpp and salt, sugars and let cool then added cure. Injected with 10% then into bath for18 days. Turned out ausome next time I'll  go with 4%. I used 1 scant cup salt,1/2 cups of both sugar and brn sugar and 1oz cure, 2 boxes kitchen basics salt free vegy stock.might cut sugars and salt back a little next time. Thanks to all and especially this site, best forum by far.


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