# Pork Butt and my "ham injection"...   Pork butt is my new go-to ham... seriously good....



## daveomak (Feb 5, 2022)

This is a WINNER !!!!

Yep, I used my go-to ham injection...  I do not think this butt was ever frozen...   Makes a BIG difference when injection curing..  The difference is definitely noticeable...  In picnics also....
typical 10% injection...  14 days in the refer being cured...  Light cold water rinse...  In the smoker at 100F for about 45 minutes to dry the outside and form a pellicle..  Then a full tray of my 3 dust mix...  Twice...  each tray smoked for 6 hours...  exhaust CLOSED to about 5% open..  Then upped the heat to 145F..  When the internal temp was about 128F, I lowered the heat to 135F...   The IT stalled at about 132F so I upped the heat to ~140F....  The internal temp came up to 133-134F....  I held it there for about 4 hours....  (I'm following poultry pasteurizing times + an hour or more, just to insure salmonella death..  I'm too old to get sick)  Then pulled it and sliced into it to see how it turned out...  Looked pretty good....  The flavor was better than any picnic I've done...  I attribute that to all the fat in a butt...  Fat is definitely flavor...  Moist and tender....  almost fall apart tender...

The reason I tried this butt...   I bought a small hunk of ham at the store...  I think it was a chunk from a leg...  About 5#'s...  It was dry and tough...   I can make better ham drunk and with my eyes closed...   
All they had in the cooler was a butt....  So, now you know...


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## DougE (Feb 5, 2022)

Man, that looks amazing, Dave. Curing a butt into ham is on my short list of things I want to do.


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## pineywoods (Feb 5, 2022)

It looks outstanding nice job


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 5, 2022)

Well Dave, you pulled that off like a boss. Nice work. I actually prefer the picnic flavor and lower fat for ham, but I do use your injection on butts, sands the cure #1, and that my friend is dynamite pulled pork.
Again nice work, like.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2022)

YUM! That looks great Dave. My friend that I got the Cajun ham spice rub from....all he uses is butts. I wanna do just the coppa like this one day.


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## pc farmer (Feb 5, 2022)

Looks great.   What makes you think it was never frozen?


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## yankee2bbq (Feb 5, 2022)

Looks really good! I’ll take a couple slices please!


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## thirdeye (Feb 5, 2022)

Looks good.  Since trying your technique on shoulder picnics, butts and even loins.... I have not changed one single thing, it works that well.   

Going forward I'm playing with a combination corning method using your injection technique for the first 24 hours (which has AmesPhos), then moving the beef or pork to a bucket with a covering brine for 14 days.


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## Fueling Around (Feb 5, 2022)

You had my attention at "Moist and tender..."

I haven't tried your injection technique, but the pasteurization I learned from you has stepped up my loin cures.

Very deserved ride on the carousel.


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## Sven Svensson (Feb 5, 2022)

That’s a work of art! I love the color on it. That brings me to this question. I’ve made a lot of hams over the years and none of them have had a smoke ring. Any idea why they don’t develop a ring? I have a feeling 

 indaswamp
 will know the answer.


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## GATOR240 (Feb 5, 2022)

That is a great looking ham, and I'm sure, great tasting ham! Nicely done. I'm going to have to give this a shot!!


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2022)

Sven Svensson said:


> That’s a work of art! I love the color on it. That brings me to this question. I’ve made a lot of hams over the years and none of them have had a smoke ring. Any idea why they don’t develop a ring? I have a feeling
> 
> indaswamp
> will know the answer.


The smoke ring occurs from the NO2 and CO2 gas created from the fire combustion. These gases diffuse into the meat in the smoke chamber and react with the myoglobin in uncured meat to form the red appearance. If you cure the meat, you are adding Nitrate and/or nitrite which will convert to NO2 gas and bind with the myoglobin in the meat.
In short-the myoglobin in cured meat has already converted to Nitrosomyoglobin so smoking will not affect the meat.


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## motocrash (Feb 5, 2022)

Breakfast is gonna be good tomorrow. Some biscuits...mmm


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## Sowsage (Feb 5, 2022)

Good lord that looks good!..


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 5, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> The smoke ring occurs from the NO2 and CO2 gas created from the fire combustion. These gases diffuse into the meat in the smoke chamber and react with the myoglobin in uncured meat to form the red appearance. If you cure the meat, you are adding Nitrate and/or nitrite which will convert to NO2 gas and bind with the myoglobin in the meat.
> In short-the myoglobin in cured meat has already converted to Nitrosomyoglobin so smoking will not affect the meat.


There it is. The lesson for the day. Spot on Inda, you nailed it. Most people don’t know about the CO2.
To add, cured meat doesnt develop more of a smoke ring specifically because the Nitrosomyglobin is already established. This is why in bbq competition, they don’t judge for smoke ring. To easy to just add nitrite to the rub and create a beautiful smoke ring.


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## indaswamp (Feb 5, 2022)

I must confess.....
I did not know about the CO2 and CO gas until I learned it here from chef jimmyj (R.I.P.). I knew it was created by combustion, just not that it had the same coloring effect on the meat like NO2.


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## pushok2018 (Feb 5, 2022)

Outstanding! Beautiful color... I can see from the pick how moist it is.... Bookmarked and will try to smoke the same this month....
Dave, if you don't mind - what brine recipe did you use?


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## Sven Svensson (Feb 5, 2022)

I knew you’d know the answer 

 indaswamp
 and I had no idea about the competition cheat 

 SmokinEdge
. So, in a sense, ham is just one big giant overgrown smoke ring?


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 5, 2022)

indaswamp said:


> I must confess.....
> I did not know about the CO2 and CO gas until I learned it here from chef jimmyj (R.I.P.). I knew it was created by combustion, just not that it had the same coloring effect on the meat like NO2.


I’d have to go dig in my notes, but this is why different woods give deeper color to meat than others. Cherry and pecan stand out as more heavy in NO And CO. The more the tree was fertilized, or the more rich in nitrogen the ground was where the tree grew, the more pink ring effect From it. Fruit wood from an orchard is always better than fruitwood just on the property where it may not get fertilizer. Kind of the same as vegetables being high in nitrate, which is what the wood can be high in, but converts to NO through heat in the burning process.


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## SmokinEdge (Feb 5, 2022)

Sven Svensson said:


> I knew you’d know the answer
> 
> indaswamp
> and I had no idea about the competition cheat
> ...


Correct, but more of a giant controlled smoke ring. We fix the iron molecules in myoglobin so they don’t turn grey with temperature. The NO gas does this once converted from NaNo2 (nitrite) it’s the nitric oxide release from nitrite that fixes the myoglobin color. It is believed the just before nitric oxide is formed, nitrous acid is formed and this is what neutralizes botulism, then it continues into nitric oxide.


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## daveomak (Feb 6, 2022)

pc farmer said:


> Looks great.   What makes you think it was never frozen?



Use by date, texture and it was in the refer case..




Sven Svensson said:


> That’s a work of art! I love the color on it. That brings me to this question. I’ve made a lot of hams over the years and none of them have had a smoke ring. Any idea why they don’t develop a ring? I have a feeling @indaswamp will know the answer.



Off gassing from the wood burned..  Electrics generally don't give smoke rings,,.




pushok2018 said:


> Outstanding! Beautiful color... I can see from the pick how moist it is.... Bookmarked and will try to smoke the same this month....
> Dave, if you don't mind - what brine recipe did you use?



Check my older ham threads also...

(12) ~5 days from Picnic to Ham.... | Smoking Meat Forums - The Best Smoking Meat Forum On Earth!


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Feb 6, 2022)

Love pork butt hams and yours is first class!


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## SmokinAl (Feb 6, 2022)

That looks killer good Dave!
Nicely done!
Al


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## JLeonard (Feb 6, 2022)

Dang that looks great! Now I'm craving eggs and ham.
Jim


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## robrpb (Feb 6, 2022)

Looks great Dave. Nice job. I'm going to have to try it.

Rob


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## bauchjw (Feb 6, 2022)

That looks incredible! Wow!


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## Bearcarver (Feb 6, 2022)

Sven Svensson said:


> That’s a work of art! I love the color on it. That brings me to this question. I’ve made a lot of hams over the years and none of them have had a smoke ring. Any idea why they don’t develop a ring? I have a feeling @indaswamp will know the answer.




I would say, when we cure a Ham, the whole thing is a Smoke Ring, so there is no little ring to see.
But I'm just a Dumb Old Bear, so what do I know.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Feb 6, 2022)

Looks Fantastic, Dave!!
Nice Job!
Like.

Bear


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## tropics (Feb 6, 2022)

Dave that looks great all the hams I have made over the last few years were Butts.
Richie


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## mneeley490 (Feb 6, 2022)

Looks great, Dave! What kind of wood/dust did you use?


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## Sven Svensson (Feb 6, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> I’d have to go dig in my notes, but this is why different woods give deeper color to meat than others. Cherry and pecan stand out as more heavy in NO And CO. The more the tree was fertilized, or the more rich in nitrogen the ground was where the tree grew, the more pink ring effect From it. Fruit wood from an orchard is always better than fruitwood just on the property where it may not get fertilizer. Kind of the same as vegetables being high in nitrate, which is what the wood can be high in, but converts to NO through heat in the burning process.


That’s really interesting about the wood types. So the cherry tree in the neighborhood all the dogs have been “marking” for years is going to be gold when wanting a great smoke ring. Ha!


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## WaterinHoleBrew (Feb 6, 2022)

That looks phenomenal Dave, nice job!  I need to do one of them!


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## daveomak (Feb 7, 2022)

mneeley490 said:


> Looks great, Dave! What kind of wood/dust did you use?




My tri mix of dust...


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## AlexLaki (Feb 7, 2022)

daveomak said:


> View attachment 524658
> 
> 
> This is a WINNER !!!!
> ...


This looks truly amazing my friend! Well done!


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## smokinjoe52 (Feb 7, 2022)

This looks great. Is there a detailed recipe somewhere? I bought an injector a few years ago, and have not used it. TIA -Joe


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## pc farmer (Feb 7, 2022)

smokinjoe52 said:


> This looks great. Is there a detailed recipe somewhere? I bought an injector a few years ago, and have not used it. TIA -Joe



Check this out






						~5 days from Picnic to Ham....
					

I use non enhanced picnics...   enhanced is OK but I cut the ingredients in half (1/2), to accommodate all the stuff processors add... Gently heat 10% the weight of the picnic, of Low Salt Vegetable stock, to about 100F....  9# picnic ~400 grams of stock.... Once warm, ADD IN ORDER and...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## Wurstmeister (Feb 7, 2022)

Great looking piece of pork/ham my friend. Thanks for the walk-through and pictures. I was thinking how to make my own deli ham. This looks like a way to go for me to do this. I can't stand the inflated costs or "flavor?" of "deli ham" found in the supermarkets. Dang, I'm fussy! LOL! 
John


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## Hijack73 (Feb 7, 2022)

Over on a site called amazing ribs dot c.. there is a really great read on smoke rings (amongst other many great reads) and the science behind the deliciousness we get when we mix meat and smoke. 

Bet that butt sliced up about a quarter inch thick and seared off quick in a hot CI pan would be the stuff!


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## smokinjoe52 (Feb 7, 2022)

So, how different is the final product, butt in this case, from one that is in Pop's brine for a couple weeks. How does the taste, texture, etc, differ between a Pop's brine and injection. Can you do a butt ham with Pop's brine? Need educated on this a little.  -Joe


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## archeryrob (Feb 8, 2022)

Really nice work Dave!!!


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## nicefly (Feb 8, 2022)

Wow that looks great.  Pork butts were on sale, put one in Pops wet cure last night for buckboard bacon.
I have one more to use, hmmm the mind wanders haha.


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## daveomak (Feb 8, 2022)

smokinjoe52 said:


> This looks great. Is there a detailed recipe somewhere? I bought an injector a few years ago, and have not used it. TIA -Joe



If you bought one of those SS injectors with the fat needle filled with holes, they make a big holes in the meat and your injection liquid can run out pretty fast..
I have 3 of those...  I use Tony's syringes... they last a long time...  Small needle...  they work well....

_I prefer the syringes that comes with Tony's injectables..._


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## olecrosseyes (Feb 10, 2022)

@*

 daveomak
 once again you chef, are setting a high bar for me to only gaze at. I've got a pork butt and a fresh uncured ham to give a go on.

Thanks for the heads up on the injector diameters, I have never given it a thought bur I'll take a look into what I have.

What are the smaller diameters (in metric or standard outside) that function well?*


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## DougE (Feb 10, 2022)

olecrosseyes said:


> @*
> 
> daveomak
> 
> ...


I haven't done it yet, but as far as hams go, Dave seems to be the guy to follow.


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## daveomak (Feb 11, 2022)

_I prefer the syringes that comes with Tony's injectables..._


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## smokinjoe52 (Feb 11, 2022)

Please comment on the difference between injection and just doing a Pop's brine. In terms of finished product for a pork butt "ham".


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## GaryHibbert (Feb 11, 2022)

I missed your original post--just came back from there now.  Even though I have a problem eating fat, I'm sure going to try this with a leaner cut and also with some PP.
Thanks for this, Dave.
Gary


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## tallbm (Feb 11, 2022)

daveomak said:


> View attachment 524658
> 
> 
> This is a WINNER !!!!
> ...


That looks great!

I made ham out of cured pork butt for both Thanksgiving and for Christmas.  It will be how I go about ham from here on out as well since it's so hard to find a bag leg and they are so large.  Just using pork butt/shoulder makes live much easier :)


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## daveomak (Feb 12, 2022)

smokinjoe52 said:


> Please comment on the difference between injection and just doing a Pop's brine. In terms of finished product for a pork butt "ham".



The difference I notice is.....   Doing a submerged cure/brine, the water dilutes the meat flavor...  The center of the meat may not have all the flavors you put into it...  
When injecting, what you put into the injection is what is in there for flavor etc... If you put 0.6 grams of cure#1 in the injection, there is .6 grams inside the meat...  And if you inject at about every 1.5" in all directions, it has been evenly distributed throughout the meat...

A butt is too big to submerge cure...  The meat should be no more than 2" across for adequate penetration of the ingredients...  AND, depending on the size of the molecules of the stuff you added, the penetration will happen at different rates...   example: Sugar is a HUGE molecule and is VERY slow to migrate in the meat muscle..


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## nicefly (Feb 25, 2022)

OK, I have an honest question.  How is this different than making BBB?

Backstory, I put a butt in a Pops wet cure with all the tasty spices in the cure just about the time


 daveomak
 posted this.  Mixed up the wet cure with spices and injected the butt for all it was worth.

So I thought I might change direction and make a ham instead since I just bought a bunch of butts at 97cents/ lb so I can make more bacon if I want (thanks Kroger).

But looking at the OP for smoking time and temps I need guidance on how this is different than making BBB hot smoked?

Serious question.  Thanks for any education.
John


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## thirdeye (Feb 25, 2022)

nicefly said:


> OK, I have an honest question. How is this different than making BBB?



Well, the method is different - dry cure verses an injection-able cure .  But beyond that, I think about 60%+ of the difference is the taste, and ~40% is the texture and moistness.  HERE is a long thread where I record my results of using Dave's method on a shoulder butt, a shoulder picnic, and also a loin. You need to fast forward through the posts to see all three.


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## daveomak (Feb 26, 2022)

nicefly said:


> OK, I have an honest question.  How is this different than making BBB?
> 
> Backstory, I put a butt in a Pops wet cure with all the tasty spices in the cure just about the time
> 
> ...




It's pasteurized so the meat is barely cooked...  Spices don't go well for bacon..
It's not cooked after it's removed from the smoker...
Max. meat temp. 134F....  Max. smoker temp. 145F....
STPP is injected...


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## olecrosseyes (Feb 26, 2022)

Could one of you Chefs please refresh my memory, What does STPP stand for? tyia.


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## Fueling Around (Feb 26, 2022)

olecrosseyes said:


> Could one of you Chefs please refresh my memory, What does STPP stand for? tyia.


*S*odium *T*ri*P*oly*P*hosphate
It is a moisture binder.  Commonly used in seafood such as shrimp to retain moisture when frozen.


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## daveomak (Feb 27, 2022)




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## olecrosseyes (Feb 27, 2022)

Thanks Chefs!!


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## thirdeye (Feb 27, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> *S*odium *T*ri*P*oly*P*hosphate
> It is a moisture binder. * Commonly used in seafood such as shrimp to retain moisture when frozen.*


I've been burned a few times when buying fresh and frozen scallops that were dipped in a phosphate solution. Some call them "wet scallops".  But always read the ingredients on the bag. The dead giveaway is an almost immediate release of liquid when searing, and browning takes so long it's easy to overcook the scallops.  Non-enhanced scallops like these take about 20 seconds per side.


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## daveomak (Feb 27, 2022)

Yep..  All this enhanced stuff leaks like the Titanic...  I think it's the same with brine/cure/injected bacon...  I bought some store bought the other day and the fry pan filled with liquid and I couldn't get it to crisp up...  Soggy bacon... I have forgotten how to cook it, I guess...


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## thirdeye (Feb 27, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Yep..  All this enhanced stuff leaks like the Titanic...  I think it's the same with brine/cure/injected bacon...  *I bought some store bought the other day and the fry pan filled with liquid and I couldn't get it to crisp up.*..  Soggy bacon... I have forgotten how to cook it, I guess...


Some processors take real liberties with their version of enhancements, and product descriptions too. 

I do notice a very slight amount of liquid in a skillet when lightly frying ham cured with your injection cure method. I use a light spray of oil first, and the liquid is not "watery" but has a little viscosity.... I'm guessing it's likely oil residue and liquid that has evaporated during the short cook.


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## daveomak (Feb 28, 2022)

If you pasteurized it at 135 for a few hours, there no need for it to see a frying pan...
I eat them  as-is...
But, It can take time for folks to eat very rare pork... and get used to it's texture...  Took me awhile...  Quite awhile...
Growing up in the 50's, mom burned most meat because trich was still a problem...


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## thirdeye (Feb 28, 2022)

daveomak said:


> If you pasteurized it at 135 for a few hours, there no need for it to see a frying pan...
> I eat them  as-is...
> But, It can take time for folks to eat very rare pork... and get used to it's texture...  Took me awhile...  Quite awhile...
> Growing up in the 50's, mom burned most meat because trich was still a problem...


Following two cycles of cold smoking, I take my IT just over 145° when I use pork loin, and around 160° on a shoulder picnic or shoulder butt.   We do eat a lot as-is like on a sandwich, or in a Chef's salad,  but I also like a hot ham & cheese sandwich or wrap, and usually do warm it up for breakfast. My intent is not to cook it further....

What device are you using to maintain the 'few hours' at 135° pasteurization temps?

*EDIT - I located this post below of yours from 2020.  Have you revised the 'hour-ish' timeline to 'several hours' to insure pasteurization?   I have two loin hams curing right now, I might experiment with the 135° using sous vide. *



daveomak said:


> Smoke the ham and take to 135F in the smoker and hold for an *hour ish* by lowering the smoker temp to ~150F and closing down the exhaust to stop evaporative cooling effect...  OR wrap it and place in your oven at it's lowest temperature so as to  not overcook and dry out the meat ..
> If you plan to pasteurize in the sous-vide, if you take the IT of the ham to 135F ish and *hold it there for an hour,* then slice into serving portions and vac-pack, and *stick it in the sous-vide for an hour + at 135F ish, then cool in 50% ice water and start another batch of ham in the sous vide, repeat,......*
> The ham will be good in the refer for nearly 90 days if it is stored below 36.5F  ..
> 
> The repeat temp and time in the sous vide is because you have contaminated the meat by handling, slicing, putting in bags etc....   Once in the vac-bag and pasteurized, you are golden...


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## daveomak (Mar 1, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> What device are you using to maintain the 'few hours' at 135° pasteurization temps?
> 
> *EDIT - I located this post below of yours from 2020.  Have you revised the 'hour-ish' timeline to 'several hours' to insure pasteurization?   I have two loin hams curing right now, I might experiment with the 135° using sous vide. *



I have a rheostat on my MES30 which regulates the wattage of it's heating element.. I can run a consistent temp in my smoker...

The time table for pasteurization does not include varying temperature zones in a smoker, mine especially...  Hot zones, cool zones... internal meat temps not being equal...  So, I exaggerate the holding times to try and ensure all areas of the meat will meet the pasteurization chart at one temp or another...  I place the therm probe in the thickest part of the meat to try and be as diligent as possible to get a perfect reading but life gets in the way...

Using sous vide, you have no idea what the temp of the meat is...  I can't use a therm in the meat in my sous vide...

Chicken, as an example, I sous vide in the middle 130's F and hold for 6 plus hours... The chicken comes out moist and tender...  I won't take any chances getting salmonella poisoning...


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## thirdeye (Mar 1, 2022)

daveomak said:


> I have a rheostat on my MES30 which regulates the wattage of it's heating element.. I can run a consistent temp in my smoker...
> 
> *The time table for pasteurization does not include varying temperature zones in a smoker, mine especially..*.  Hot zones, cool zones... internal meat temps not being equal...  So, I exaggerate the holding times to try and ensure all areas of the meat will meet the pasteurization chart at one temp or another...  I place the therm probe in the thickest part of the meat to try and be as diligent as possible to get a perfect reading but life gets in the way...
> 
> ...


*Going back to the pasteurization* of the pork loins that I would be smoking and/or finishing by sous vide - looking at the Baldwin Table 5.1, and assuming the loin is 65mm and using 135° bath temp.... the pasteurization time is 4.5 hours. 

*As far as meat temp in the sous vide pouch*, we know the meat won't ever exceed the bath temperature, but we only have an educated guess as to how long it takes the meat to reach the bath temperature.   Baldwin Table 2.1 tells us that if the pork loin is 41°, it will take 3 hours to reach 1° below bath temp.  So for me... at the end of day 2 of cold smoke, and with an overnight rest, my loin will in the mid-30° range going into the sous vide the next day.


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## daveomak (Mar 2, 2022)




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## olecrosseyes (Mar 6, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Using sous vide, you have no idea what the temp of the meat is...  I can't use a therm in the meat in my sous vide...


How is it you cannot use a probe in your Sous Verdi?
Open the top of the pouch and let the cord run up and over the vessel?


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## DougE (Mar 6, 2022)

olecrosseyes said:


> How is it you cannot use a probe in your Sous Verdi?
> Open the top of the pouch and let the cord run up and over the vessel?


The bag you put the your meat in has to have all the air out of it so it stays under the water. Most temp probes I'm aware of can't be submerged in liquid, so it would be a real trick to get that to all work out.


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## olecrosseyes (Mar 6, 2022)

DougE said:


> The bag you put the your meat in has to have all the air out of it so it stays under the water. Most temp probes I'm aware of can't be submerged in liquid, so it would be a real trick to get that to all work out.


Stick the probe in the meat, put the meat in an opened freezer bag, set the bag in the water vessel and clip the top with a cloths pin up and over the top of the vessel. the water will push the air out of the bag. Is this not good enough??


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## daveomak (Mar 7, 2022)

OK, I've gathered my thoughts...
Thickness plays a role in temperature penetration... I'm sure muscle types play a role also...  
A full-size butt, is not only impractical but plays against rules...  Strictly from a food safety point of view... "Are all sections of the butt heating at the same rate"... 
The butt "should" be cut into pieces that allow for semi rapid, similar heating rates... If multiple smaller packages are introduced to the water bath, are they heating uniformly??? 
l don't expect folks to be as anal as I when it comes to food safety... I was employed at a quality assurance laboratory for 27 years... At ~74, living alone etc., I can't afford to make mistakes with my health... My ONLY avenue is to suggest the utmost safest direction, I'm aware of, to take where food safety is a concern and the members here are looking for advice... Whether they follow my advice is none of my business... If I gave advice that did not approach the highest standards available, I would be remiss...
I've re-read this blurb and there are some vacancies...  It would take me a month to proof-read and edit this to something perfect... Therefore, anyone reading this must have a good understanding of thermal dynamics, search terms used to fill in your blanks, re-read Dr. Baldwins Sous-Vide explanation and use and fully understand it so you don't poison yourself...


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## thirdeye (Mar 7, 2022)

daveomak said:


> OK, I've gathered my thoughts...
> Thickness plays a role in temperature penetration... I'm sure muscle types play a role also...
> A full-size butt, is not only impractical but plays against rules... Strictly from a food safety point of view... "Are all sections of the butt heating at the same rate"...
> *The butt "should" be cut into pieces that allow for semi rapid, similar heating rates... If multiple smaller packages are introduced to the water bath, are they heating uniformly???*









I would tend to agree that smaller pieces would allow for pieces of meat to heat more evenly (or would be more predictable). *Take this porkstrami ↑↑↑* *that I made from a pork butt for example:  *I wanted more of the pastrami bark, so I removed the bone and sliced the butt into thirds.  I corned it for 14 days.  On smoking day I put each piece on a separate skewer and hung them in my drum.  

Now I did NOT use a sous vide finish, but I was pleased with the final product, and once sliced it was impossible to tell I used small roasts instead of a whole butt.


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## thirdeye (Mar 7, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> I have two loin hams curing right now, I might experiment with the 135° using sous vide.



I have decided to do a sous vide finish on one of the loin hams I have ready to smoke.  In fact I'm going to hold back the other loin a day or so in case I like the SV finish.


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## DougE (Mar 7, 2022)

olecrosseyes said:


> Stick the probe in the meat, put the meat in an opened freezer bag, set the bag in the water vessel and clip the top with a cloths pin up and over the top of the vessel. the water will push the air out of the bag. Is this not good enough??


I don't have an answer because I don't know if it would work or not.


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## thirdeye (Mar 7, 2022)

DougE said:


> The bag you put the your meat in has to have all the air out of it so it stays under the water. Most temp probes I'm aware of can't be submerged in liquid, so it would be a real trick to get that to all work out.





olecrosseyes said:


> Stick the probe in the meat, put the meat in an opened freezer bag, set the bag in the water vessel and clip the top with a cloths pin up and over the top of the vessel.



A freezer 'zipper' bag will work *better*  when using a temperature probe if you add some SV weights to the bag, then use the displacement method. These are 5 ounce weights.


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## Fueling Around (Mar 7, 2022)

olecrosseyes said:


> Stick the probe in the meat, put the meat in an opened freezer bag, set the bag in the water vessel and clip the top with a cloths pin up and over the top of the vessel. the water will push the air out of the bag. Is this not good enough??





thirdeye said:


> A freezer 'zipper' bag will work *better*  when using a temperature probe if you add some SV weights to the bag, then use the displacement method. These are 5 ounce weights.
> View attachment 528113


I have never tried sous vide in food.  Metal products, yes.
I know the objective is for fluid circulation to surround the product.  Doesn't clipping to the side of the vessel defeat the circulation?


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## daveomak (Mar 8, 2022)

FA, evening....  I believe you have hit on a very important point...  SV is not a simple method of cooking food safely...  There are, or can be, pitfalls that could interfere with a quality finished product...


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## thirdeye (Mar 8, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> *I have never tried sous vide in food*. Metal products, yes.
> I know the objective is for fluid circulation to surround the product. *Doesn't clipping to the side of the vessel defeat the circulation?*



Not sure what you meant about "in food"?  The circulators are somewhat powerful and the impeller is at the bottom, so they keep the water circulating and the bath at a very constant temp even when using zipper bags instead of submerging a vacuum sealed bag. I have a second circulator that can handle a 15 gallon water bath. 



daveomak said:


> FA, evening.... I believe you have hit on a very important point... SV is not a simple method of cooking food safely... There are, or can be, pitfalls that could interfere with a quality finished product...



Stay tuned, I did some experimenting last evening with the time for my chicken thighs to reach water bath temp. I'll get some photos posted later today.


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## zwiller (Mar 8, 2022)

daveomak said:


> FA, evening....  I believe you have hit on a very important point...  SV is not a simple method of cooking food safely...  There are, or can be, pitfalls that could interfere with a quality finished product...


+1;  I thought I understood it well until I looked at the charts for how long it takes for the meat to reach within 1F of set temp.  WAAAY longer than I ever thought.  

I smoked a loin and immediately SV'd it and ended up nasty.  Really foul oversmoke flavor.  I think 

 daveomak
 had similar with pressure cooked smoked stuff.  I love SV but I tread lightly with smoked fare.


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## thirdeye (Mar 8, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> I have decided to do a sous vide finish on one of the loin hams I have ready to smoke. In fact I'm going to hold back the other loin a day or so in case I like the SV finish.





zwiller said:


> *I smoked a loin and immediately SV'd it and ended up nasty.* Really foul oversmoke flavor. I think
> 
> daveomak
> 
> ...


I ran my idea of using SV on one of the loin roast I have smoking today by another friend and he didn't have the best results either. I found an older thread on the same subject where there were mixed results. Oh well, the weather is impacting my day today, so we'll see. 

As far as pressure cooker (finish) goes.... I have used this finish for pastrami for many years.  It works great.  I have par-cooked meat in my smoker then canned it with good results too, but I want light on the smoke.


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## thirdeye (Mar 8, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Using sous vide, you have no idea what the temp of the meat is... I can't use a therm in the meat in my sous vide...





zwiller said:


> +1; I thought I understood it well until I looked at the charts for how long it takes for the meat to reach within 1F of set temp. WAAAY longer than I ever thought.



Here are the results of my time/temperature experiment last evening.  I used boneless thighs in a zipper bag and placed the temp probe in one of the center thighs.  The SV temp was 160°F, and the chicken started off at 40°F.  *My planned cook time for boneless thighs is 2-hours @ 160°. *





Before I knew it the chicken temp began to rise. In the first 16 minutes alone the chicken temp rose to109°.





At 30 minutes, the chicken temp was 140°.
At 54 minutes, the chicken temp was 155°.
--Then it hit a stall--
At 80 minutes, the chicken temp reached 159°. (The Baldwin Table 2.1 talks about time to reach 1° below bath temp).
At  103 minutes, the chicken temp finally hit 160°.






Going back to Baldwin Table 2.1 my temps corresponded to the times for a cylindrical shape in the 45mm-50mm range which is about right for a rolled thigh.  Here they are out of the SV and re-seasoned before going into quesadillas.


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## daveomak (Mar 8, 2022)

I don't remember the length of time I smoked salmon to pressure can it, but I think it was about 1/2 - 1 hour to get it edible...


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## thirdeye (Mar 8, 2022)

daveomak said:


> I don't remember the length of time *I smoked salmon to pressure can it,* but I think it was about 1/2 - 1 hour to get it edible...


Yes, thanks for the reminder.... smoked salmon that is canned is more sensitive to smoke than other meats. I dry cure my fillets and cold smoke about 2 hours.  It's a very good product.


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## Fueling Around (Mar 8, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> Not sure what you meant about "in food"?  The circulators are somewhat powerful and the impeller is at the bottom, so they keep the water circulating and the bath at a very constant temp even when using zipper bags instead of submerging a vacuum sealed bag. I have a second circulator that can handle a 15 gallon water bath.
> ...


Sorry, I have an industrial background
Never have sous vide food.
The only "under vacuum" I did was deposit plating on parts.  Many metal cleaning or conditioning or plating or passivating processes require a circulating heated bath. Parts are suspended in the bath and do not contact the tank.  That's how I made the comment about side contact of the sous vide bath with a zip bag affecting dwell time and final temperature.


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## thirdeye (Mar 9, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> Sorry, I have an industrial background
> *Never have sous vide food.*
> The only "under vacuum" I did was deposit plating on parts.   That's how I made the comment about side contact of the sous vide bath with a zip bag affecting dwell time and final temperature.


Gotcha.  

So to answer your question... even though the zipper end of the bag is clipped to the edge of the container, it won't hang vertically.  The weights pretty much hold the bottom end of the bag where you want.  I would say the bag is laying at a 30° or 40° angle, so there are a few inches for water to circulate between the bag and the near wall of the container.  The weights are silicone covered stainless steel, so they pick-up heat as well. They really come in handy when SV-ing something like a center cut pork chop because I place the bone against the weight which prevents a sharp spot puncturing the bag.


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## zwiller (Mar 9, 2022)

I did another run and waited a week to "gas off" before SVing and had much better results.  

 chopsaw
 seems to think freezing is a factor and testing this out.  I have seen a few others that talk of this where the logic is that the freezing or cold drives smoke deeper.  Pops Fassett also talked of freezing helps by tenderizing a bit rupturing cells.  We'll see.  I have these 3 hunks in the freezer now from 1/10 and might pull one out.  This got 24hrs beech smoke at 100F over 3 days then taken to 145F IT.  Anyone think SVing after using smoker to cook is of any benefit?


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## thirdeye (Mar 9, 2022)

zwiller said:


> I did another run and waited a week to "gas off" before SVing and had much better results



So you did several days of cold/cool smoke, then rested a week before SV-ing?  Or am I reading this wrong?


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## zwiller (Mar 9, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> So you did several days of cold/cool smoke, then rested a week before SV-ing?


Correct.  Those nasty off flavors were gone but otherwise not impressive.


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## thirdeye (Mar 9, 2022)

zwiller said:


> Correct.  Those nasty off flavors were gone but otherwise not impressive.


Added to my "ham notes".  

My plans changed with the weather and I abandoned the SV experiment.  I rested my (12 hour cold smoked) loin hams for 16 hours, and I'm slowly bring them up to finish temp. Once today's blizzard stopped, I was able to get some dry cured fish in my smoker.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 9, 2022)

zwiller said:


> I smoked a loin and immediately SV'd it and ended up nasty. Really foul oversmoke flavor. I think
> 
> daveomak
> 
> ...


My theory is that the plastic bag is the culprit. I too tried SV with smoked ribs and the smoke flavor was more like straight liquid smoke. I was no fan. Smoking after SV is an option but not as flavorful or colorful. All that said,

I am using SV to finish my smoked sausages and am very pleased with the bite through of the natural casings. I am in SV naked no bag. I got here by seeing how the Polish often poach their sausage after smoking, even loins sometimes too. Also I’m now steam finishing my pastrami and am very satisfied. With all these water based finishing methods being so successful exposed directly to the water/moisture, the only exception for me has been SV smoked meat in a bag, it seems to me that the meat trapped in the bag is the problem with the smoke. I think the smoke is mixing with moisture and becomes liquid smoke. Then that smoke it trapped with the meat. Where in poaching or steaming, or SV with no bag, the lost smoke floats away from the meat not giving an off taste.

I’ll admit my sausages have lost some smoke flavor, but not all. The gain in casing softness is an acceptable trade off for me for now. These are just my observation.


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## thirdeye (Mar 10, 2022)

I got my loin hams done yesterday, good thing too as it was -14°F this morning.  I tried some Smokehouse brand apple pellets in my Big Chief, and so far I'm liking the flavor.  $6 for a 5lb bag.  The color is not as dark as I get when cherry is in the mix, but the flavor is good.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 10, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> I got my loin hams done yesterday, good thing too as it was -14°F this morning.  I tried some Smokehouse brand apple pellets in my Big Chief, and so far I'm liking the flavor.  $6 for a 5lb bag.  The color is not as dark as I get when cherry is in the mix, but the flavor is good.
> View attachment 528372


Those look absolutely delicious!
I used to smoke with just about 100% of the time apple wood. I switched to pecan as a standard and am much more pleased with color and flavor. I use a little cherry in the mix to really pull that red color from time to time.


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## thirdeye (Mar 10, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> Those look absolutely delicious!
> I used to smoke with just about 100% of the time apple wood. I switched to pecan as a standard and am much more pleased with color and flavor. I use a little cherry in the mix to really pull that red color from time to time.


My favorite pellets are still the Pitmaster Blend from A-Maze-N, but now they are $7 for 2lbs.


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## daveomak (Mar 11, 2022)

Can you still get 20# bags..


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## thirdeye (Mar 11, 2022)

daveomak said:


> Can you still get 20# bags..


Not to my knowledge.


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## lathrop (Mar 13, 2022)

daveomak said:


> View attachment 524658
> 
> 
> This is a WINNER !!!!
> ...





daveomak said:


> View attachment 524658
> 
> 
> This is a WINNER !!!!
> ...


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## lathrop (Mar 13, 2022)

daveomak said:


> View attachment 524658
> 
> 
> This is a WINNER !!!!
> ...


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Sep 28, 2022)

Got a butt going today.  Can't find Kitchen Basics Unsalted Vegetable Stock around here and have had bad luck in past using something else for this so ended up ordering a 12 pack of 8 ouncers.  I probaly only going to use for this.  Would the best thing to do is put them in the freezer?


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## SmokinAl (Sep 28, 2022)

BrianGSDTexoma said:


> Got a butt going today.  Can't find Kitchen Basics Unsalted Vegetable Stock around here and have had bad luck in past using something else for this so ended up ordering a 12 pack of 8 ouncers.  I probaly only going to use for this.  Would the best thing to do is put them in the freezer?


Yep, it freezes really well. However we freeze it in vac bags. Pour it into some Tupperware dishes or any dish & freeze it. Try to find a dish about the size of the vac bag. After frozen, slide into a bag & vac, then into the freezer until needed.
Al


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## chopsaw (Sep 28, 2022)

I've also used the larger cube silicone ice trays . The ones that makes 4 cubes . Freeze then pop out of the tray and wrap in plastic . Then into the reusable vac bags from Inkbird . 
When I figure my injection , I weigh the cubes frozen , then use how ever many I need . Leave the rest frozen .


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## BrianGSDTexoma (Oct 3, 2022)

Dave, do you happen to remember how long this took to smoke.  I was wanting to take down on the river for friends and trying to figure if I have time to do it.


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## daveomak (Nov 12, 2022)

Then a full tray of my 3 dust mix... Twice... each tray smoked for 6 hours...

From #1 post...


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