# MES won’t stop heating



## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

I have a MES sportsman elite. When I plug cord into power it immediately starts heating. Even without smoker turned on. Then never stops. I unplugged the controller and it still heats up right away. I have back and bottom panel off as well as connectors to heating element taken off just wondering what to replace first??  Any input would be great. 
Thanks


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

I don't have MES but from what you said it that heating element turns ON as soon as unit plugged in and  not even turned ON I would suspect relay contacts stuck in ON position... Hard to say without wiring diagram...


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

That is what it sounds like to me as well.


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

Steve H said:


> That is what it sounds like to me as well.


Of course, I am assuming power to heater is supplied via normally open relay contacts if there is relay or contactor installed...


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> Of course, I am assuming power to heater is supplied via normally open relay contacts if there is relay or contactor...



I'm guessing you're right. Either through a mechanical relay or a ssr. I'm guessing they have a ssr. Which when they fail. They remain closed.


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## zwiller (Dec 3, 2020)

You sound like you know what you're doing so...  Schematic in this thread: https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/mes-30-wiring-diagram-not-available.105910/


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

Weird they have a digital control powering a EMR. Way to cheap out. Now the question is. Is this a board mounted relay, or separate.


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

According to SonnyE and his:





						Bypass Surgery for the MES 30
					

OK, so today's goal turned to making my MES 30 be optional to be cord controlled, or standard controlled. Retired from 42 + years in the Electrical field, I've seen a couple of things, and done a couple of things. And no matter what it is, there is probably a couple of million ways to do it...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com
				



relay is not stand alone... it's integrated on board...


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## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Steve H said:


> Weird they have a digital control powering a EMR. Way to cheap out. Now the question is. Is this a board mounted relay, or separate.


Board mounted


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## zwiller (Dec 3, 2020)

Like all things, all depends how far you want to take it.  Replace the board/desolder relay/upgrade to PID.  Not sure what model # etc but found this pretty quick: https://www.masterbuilt.com/product...MI7qGRlpiy7QIVfwytBh10awInEAQYBSABEgJE9_D_BwE


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> Board mounted



Kind of figured it would be.


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

zwiller said:


> Like all things, all depends how far you want to take it.  Replace the board/desolder relay/upgrade to PID.  Not sure what model # etc but found this pretty quick: https://www.masterbuilt.com/product...MI7qGRlpiy7QIVfwytBh10awInEAQYBSABEgJE9_D_BwE



That wouldn't be hard to replace.


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

The board itself is only 25.00. I'd just buy that instead of messing around with replacing the relay. If, f course. That's the right board. Probably is.


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## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

My board is riveted from the inside. Not going to be fun getting out. Relay should be open when the smoker is off correct? I checked continuity and it was. Which surprised me I figured it would be stuck closed. Makes me wonder if my issue isn’t the relay


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

There are only 2 things after the relay. Which is the high limit switch and the heater.






Unless with all the bumping around the smoker took while you were investigating the issue. The contacts freed up.
Are you using the same outlet as you have been?


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## zwiller (Dec 3, 2020)

Still heating up?


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

power to the heater is supplied across relay normally open contact only... signal to operate relay is supplied across transistor... I am pretty sure relay is the problem... relay normally open contacts are only way to supply power to the heater...
If relay is good then only other thing that could be bad is shorted transistor supplying relay coil directly from DC rectifier supply...


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> My board is riveted from the inside. Not going to be fun getting out. Relay should be open when the smoker is off correct? I checked continuity and it was. Which surprised me I figured it would be stuck closed. Makes me wonder if my issue isn’t the relay


Try to disconnect (I assume) red wire off of relay... leave it disconnected and plug the smoker back in and it should not heat up..
Again.. all of our troubleshooting is based on posted wiring diagram which seems to be 10 yrs old...


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> power to the heater is supplied across relay normally open contact only... signal to operate relay is supplied across transistor... I am pretty sure relay is the problem... relay normally open contacts are only way to supply power to the heater...
> If relay is good then only other thing that could be bad is shorted transistor supplying relay coil directly from DC supply...



I was thinking that too. But he said he unplugged the controller. So, I'm assuming he meant power to the main board. Maybe not.
I haven't dealt with transistors a lot. Other then testing to  see if they're open or shorted. But I don't recall hearing that a transistor could short or fail intermittently. Board level trouble shooting is not my calling.


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

Steve H said:


> I was thinking that too. But he said he unplugged the controller. So, I'm assuming he meant power to the main board. Maybe not.
> I haven't dealt with transistors a lot. Other then testing to  see if they're open or shorted. But I don't recall hearing that a transistor could short or fail intermittently. Board level trouble shooting is not my calling.


I am not that good with boards either but DC from rectifier supplies relay coil across transistor and AC supplies power to heater across relay normally open contacts...


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## Steve H (Dec 3, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> I am not that good with boards either but DC from rectifier supplies relay coil across transistor and AC supplies power to heater across relay normally open contacts...


Yeah, I understand that. 
I just talked to a friend that does know PCB repair. A transistor can be a issue here. I'm still thinking the contacts were welded and freed up. That I've seen numerous times. I'm waiting to see if he is still having trouble.


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

I hope its not situation like when you buy cheap printer and then every now and then they take you for a ride when you need new cartridge...


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## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Steve H said:


> There are only 2 things after the relay. Which is the high limit switch and the heater.
> View attachment 473476
> 
> Unless with all the bumping around the smoker took while you were investigating the issue. The contacts freed up.
> Are you using the same outlet as you have been?


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

Well...? What is it?  Don't keep us in the dark... You realize this is international USA/Canada joint attempt to fix problem you have...lol... Steve H and I trying to troubleshoot "chit" out of "MESs" (mayhem) you have..lol...


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## tallbm (Dec 3, 2020)

Hi there and welcome!

I'd totally seize this opportunity to drastically improve the smoker by building or using a PID controller, hell it sounds like the MES has done half the work for you already ;) hahhaha

With a PID controller you can hold temp within 1-3 degrees.  Could then confidently do sausage, bacon, and low temp cold smokes.  Also your smoker will be like 10x better performing then it ever was brand new.  Just sayin :D


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## Winterrider (Dec 3, 2020)

^^^^ this ^^^^


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## dernektambura (Dec 3, 2020)

tallbm said:


> Hi there and welcome!
> 
> I'd totally seize this opportunity to drastically improve the smoker by building or using a PID controller, hell it sounds like the MES has done half the work for you already ;) hahhaha
> 
> With a PID controller you can hold temp within 1-3 degrees.  Could then confidently do sausage, bacon, and low temp cold smokes.  Also your smoker will be like 10x better performing then it ever was brand new.  Just sayin :D


word of wisdom.... I second that...


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## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Thanks for all the support! You guys are awesome! . After seeing that the relay was open i thought maybe it freed up and then it would work but not the case. Same issue. Plugged in power cord and instantly started heating.  Sounds like you guys agree it has to be something in the circuit board. Relay probably. Or transistor but I don’t know what else it could be. Smoker model is 20071914
and can’t find a board that exactly matches for that. I’m no electrical expert either though...

I like the sound of using a PID but don’t I still need that main circuit board to be functioning first?


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## jdk2007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Steve H said:


> There are only 2 things after the relay. Which is the high limit switch and the heater.
> View attachment 473476
> 
> Unless with all the bumping around the smoker took while you were investigating the issue. The contacts freed up.
> Are you using the same outlet as you have been?



Used a couple different outlets


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## bill1 (Dec 3, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> ...Smoker model is 20071914 and can’t find a board that exactly matches for that. ...


Yeah, Zwiller's simple 2-screw board isn't associated with that model.  Somewhat consistent with you saying yours was riveted in.  They sell the top-mounted digital control and microprocessor for yours but it appears the power components aren't available.  
Have you called them?  If you're comfortable drilling out rivets, you could ask if the old board can perhaps be made to work.  Or they may have parts not listed on their website...you just have to ask for them.


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## mosparky (Dec 3, 2020)

Try checking your element leads to ground. It is possible if one side is grounded the element will heat. If you do not have a gfi outlet or are somehow bypassing it, such a condition could go undetected.


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## tallbm (Dec 4, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> Thanks for all the support! You guys are awesome! . After seeing that the relay was open i thought maybe it freed up and then it would work but not the case. Same issue. Plugged in power cord and instantly started heating.  Sounds like you guys agree it has to be something in the circuit board. Relay probably. Or transistor but I don’t know what else it could be. Smoker model is 20071914
> and can’t find a board that exactly matches for that. I’m no electrical expert either though...
> 
> I like the sound of using a PID but don’t I still need that main circuit board to be functioning first?



If you do the simple rewire underneath at the circuit board (cut ends off 4 wires and splice to make 2 wires) you completely cut the circuit board at the bottom out of the loop.  This also cuts the top controller out of the loop too since it wires to the circuit board at the bottom :)

You could try just going with it how it is now since its powering to the heating element... but in my mind something is already screwy and failing to cause that so may as well just do the quick rewire around it and not have to worry about the board failing even more when u have a PID controller :)


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## dernektambura (Dec 4, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> I like the sound of using a PID but don’t I still need that main circuit board to be functioning first?


Yes you can... you will need PID and SSR...
Hook up your existing TC to PID...
Hook alarm from PID to SSR
Hook existing heater to SSR...

Here is my setup for kamado..


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## jdk2007 (Dec 4, 2020)

Thanks again for the help I will see what I can do


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## tallbm (Dec 4, 2020)

jdk2007 said:


> Thanks again for the help I will see what I can do


If you need a detailed writeup on the simple rewire to use a PID with an MES here you go! :)






						MES Rewire Simple Guide - No Back Removal Needed!!!
					

Lately I've seen a number of posts about guys wanting to rewire their MES.  I had wanted to post a quick and simple guide for those out there that are curious or those that simply need to rewire but need a little assistance.  Well here goes.  Disclaimer:  When messing with electrical equipment...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com


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## dernektambura (Dec 5, 2020)

tallbm said:


> If you need a detailed writeup on the simple rewire to use a PID with an MES here you go! :)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I admit, I didn't read all 10 pages and I may be wrong and please correct me if I'm wrong but in your description of  rewiring MES write up (first post) you basically bypassed (dummied) control board and got a same result and symptoms as what jdk2007 dealing with... I didn't see PID and SSR included in rewiring to make MES fully functional...


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## zwiller (Dec 5, 2020)

I actually did read all 10 pages this AM and 

 dernektambura
 you are correct it's a bypass and result is same as OP.  PID for $28 shipped.  Just need to do the bypass.


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## dernektambura (Dec 5, 2020)

zwiller said:


> I actually did read all 10 pages this AM and
> 
> dernektambura
> you are correct it's a bypass and result is same as OP.  PID for $28 shipped.  Just need to do the bypass.


Unless, I am wrong cuz my mind is set to build instead of buying "plug and play"... I was looking for PID  ( proportional integral derivate ) and SSR and never thought about DTS ( Digital temp. controler )...my bad...


 tallbm
 rewire works  perfect if rewired MES is plugged in to Inkbird nd Inkbird plugged in to outlet... good stuff...


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## wild west (Dec 5, 2020)

I looked at that model of inkbird pid but it only controls temp up to 248 degrees so went with a different one instead.


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## dr k (Dec 5, 2020)

wild west said:


> I looked at that model of inkbird pid but it only controls temp up to 248 degrees so went with a different one instead.


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## tallbm (Dec 5, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> I admit, I didn't read all 10 pages and I may be wrong and please correct me if I'm wrong but in your description of  rewiring MES write up (first post) you basically bypassed (dummied) control board and got a same result and symptoms as what jdk2007 dealing with... I didn't see PID and SSR included in rewiring to make MES fully functional...





dernektambura said:


> Unless, I am wrong cuz my mind is set to build instead of buying "plug and play"... I was looking for PID  ( proportional integral derivate ) and SSR and never thought about DTS ( Digital temp. controler )...my bad...
> 
> 
> tallbm
> rewire works  perfect if rewired MES is plugged in to Inkbird nd Inkbird plugged in to outlet... good stuff...




Yeah the 1st post in that thread bypasses the MES controller electronics making it dumb where the chord feeds power directly to the heating element with no control period... basically what jdk2007 is seeing.  jdk2007 is already getting that effect without rewiring but in my mind his board could continue to fail in any variety of ways causing different or even more unexpected, uncontrolled behavior so I would recommend just rewiring rather than keeping a failing component in the mix.

My post doesnt cover building a PID + SSR but buying an Auber Plug n Play PID for $150 or building on yourself is the next step.  The rewire just makes the MES PID ready.

If buying a controller Digital Temp Controller you have to take into consideration 2 things. 
1. What are it's amperage/wattage limitations?  You cant hook up a 10 amp (1200watt) MES to a controller that cannot handle 10amps.  Also with electricity you probably want something that has MORE than a 10amp limit and handles more like 12amp +  
I believe there is a best practice with electricity to overshoot your needs by like 10% to handle any variety of electrical issues.  So if you get a controller that can ONLY handle 10amps it has a good chance of failing at some point.  At the very least think of it like a 10amp controller is running at it's limit the entire time when a 10amp device is pulling max current.  Nothing holds up running at it's upper limit forever.

2.  What is the max temp range it can handle.


Finally, a PID controller will be far superior to something like that Inkbird Digital Temp controller.  I own one of those inkbirds for a different purpose and it temp swings just like the old MES did.
With a PID controller you can hold temp right on or with in 1-3 degrees of set temp. 
This kind of precision is valuable if you want to do sausage or bacon where you want to avoid temp swings that cause fatout.  Also with a PID controller your temp range is pretty much limited to what the temp probes can handle or how many digits you can fit into the display (3 digits = 999 max hahah).

So to wrap it all up.  The rewire is to make the MES dumb and ready to use with 3rd party controller.  The 3rd party controller you get better be able to safely and effectively handle running an MES.  A PID controller is going to be the best controller performing and most applicable controller for the job of doing any kind of smoke you can think of :)


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## dernektambura (Dec 6, 2020)

tallbm said:


> Finally, a PID controller will be far superior to something like that Inkbird Digital Temp controller.  I own one of those inkbirds for a different purpose and it temp swings just like the old MES did.


Just out of curiosity... as I said before, I don't own Inkbird but does it Inkbird have a setup option called "hysterisis"? If it does and if hysterisis option is turned OFF, or set up at wide range it will mess up temperature monitoring and heater ON/OFF cycles...
The heating hysteresis is basically the range outside the set temp to turn on the heating ON or OFF... 
for example, if your set value is 200F, and heating hysteresis is 2, then it will start heating when the temp drops to 188F.


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## zwiller (Dec 6, 2020)

I rushed posting that controller.  I didn't really research in depth and was just threw out that for an example.  I remember paying like $200 for an old analog fridge controller for homebrewing years ago.  It's shocking to me to see the technology this cheap so I jumped the gun.

I am still researching all this PID/controller stuff.  I actually use PID as a blanket term for accurate controller.  I think the Auber is a great controller and professional grade.  I think for me it's too much for my needs with the steps and recipe storage and odds are I will fry my smoker running some poultry @ 325F.   

Back on the Inkbird.  Yes it does have hysteresis, they call it "heating differential value".  Range is 1-30F.  See below.  If gung ho PID and DIY there is an option:


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## tallbm (Dec 6, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> Just out of curiosity... as I said before, I don't own Inkbird but does it Inkbird have a setup option called "hysterisis"? If it does and if hysterisis option is turned OFF, or set up at wide range it will mess up temperature monitoring and heater ON/OFF cycles...
> The heating hysteresis is basically the range outside the set temp to turn on the heating ON or OFF...
> for example, if your set value is 200F, and heating hysteresis is 2, then it will start heating when the temp drops to 188F.



[Edited to be correct.]
This Inkbird Unit has no hysteresis settings of any kind.  It has settings to help protect things like compressors or itself but no hysteresis like you are asking about.  It's a good little controller for non-critical/non-precise temp stuff but is basically the same thing the MES and normal oven's do today.  The differential settings didn't work too well in my one application to hold a drum of thick liquid at a fairly steady temp range.  I still had considerable temp swings.

Now for anyone that is curious, the Inkbird PID that 

 zwiller
 just posted above (Post #43), that sucker will do the job and comes with an SSR that is rated for 40Amps so way more than 10Amps.
One thing to know about that particular PID is that it is all Celsius so if that is a deal breaker for then you basically get one that can do F or C and get a project box to fit it all then you are in business :)

BTW for anyone wiring in a fuse holder to protect the controller electronics the cheap Chinese ones all melt down after a period of time, just like the switches, and other components from China no mater if they are 20Amp rated.  I think this fuseholder will do the trick and I have on in waiting when my current Chinese fuse holder melts down soon.  It's a single unit and more costly but is like 10x the quality when just holding and looking at it:

I got so pissed off at Chinese rocker switches failing I bought a 100Aamp marine (boat) breaker switch to use as my on/off switch to the PID controler I built hahaha.  If you get a toggle switch used for vehicles that can handle 20amp or more that should do the trick as well.  I just wanted no more failures and went stupid on mine after burning up 5 Chinese 20Amp rated rocker switches hahaha.


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## zwiller (Dec 7, 2020)

tallbm
  Can you please explain more about the differences of the inkbird temp differential value and why it is not hysteresis?  Maybe my post is not clear but the cheapo Inkbird appears to have some range control.  I seem lost... Still learning.  THANKS


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## chopsaw (Dec 7, 2020)

Not sure if this is what's being talked about , but 
The ones that also control refrigeration don't hold the precise temps . Basically on / off because compressors can't / don't like to start against a high head pressure . System pressure needs to equalize before restarting .


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## tallbm (Dec 7, 2020)

zwiller said:


> tallbm
> Can you please explain more about the differences of the inkbird temp differential value and why it is not hysteresis?  Maybe my post is not clear but the cheapo Inkbird appears to have some range control.  I seem lost... Still learning.  THANKS



I see the confusion.  I looked quickly at the features listed for the ITC-308 (plug looking controller).   I own one but seldom use it hahaha.  It DOES have a heating and cooling differential value so my apologies in missing it.  They cover it in the pictures not the bulleted feature/spec list.  I know when fiddling with mine I couldn't get it to cut the swings down too much but you are right it does have some hysteresis to it that you can play with.  
My application was trying to keep a drum of liquid at a tighter temp and I was able to limp by with it but able to rely on it.  Not the same as controlling an electric smoker so maybe it fairs better or worse, provided someone wants to try and can live with it's max temp limitaion 



The ITC-100VH is a full blown PID where the P-I-D settings cover hysteresis behavior in a much more finely tunable manner.

Thanks for asking the question and clearing up the confusion I was causing.  I'll go back and edit my previous post to eliminate inaccurate info being out there in the world.  I can't stand to be a source of bad information hahaha :)


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