# IS THIS A RIP OFF OF THE AMNPS



## red adaire (Jan 4, 2015)

Just spotted this on EBAY and it looks a bit suspect to me

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pellet-Co...Q_Utensils_Accessories_LE&hash=item27f596943a

Hope you dont mind me posting the link but just trying to prptect the inventor.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 14, 2015)

Red Adaire said:


> Just spotted this on EBAY and it looks a bit suspect to me
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pellet-Co...Q_Utensils_Accessories_LE&hash=item27f596943a
> 
> Hope you dont mind me posting the link but just trying to prptect the inventor.


Yup---It sure looks like a "knock-off" of an A-Maze-N-Smoker!!!

I'll send Todd a Smoke Signal.

Bear


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## cmayna (Jan 14, 2015)

Seller closed the transaction.


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## mdboatbum (Jan 14, 2015)

i believe the sawdust maze smoker was being sold out of the UK before Todd started selling them.


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## red adaire (Jan 14, 2015)

Not in any way similar to the AMNPS though. This one I pointed out is identical.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 14, 2015)

Todd has the patents.

And I believe was first.

Bear


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## wade (Jan 14, 2015)

Hmm... Redhill... not far from me. I wonder who it was. They claimed that they only had 10 so maybe they were not the manufacturer.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 14, 2015)

Wade said:


> Hmm... Redhill... not far from me. I wonder who it was. They claimed that they only had 10 so maybe they were not the manufacturer.


I read that differently:

They said "More than 10 available".

I took that as between 11 and Thousands---Or more.

Bear


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## wade (Jan 14, 2015)

They have taken them offline now anyway


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## Bearcarver (Jan 14, 2015)

The one I'm looking at says "Ended Jan 4".

Bear


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## gravey (Jan 15, 2015)

It does look more like the A-Maze-N Smoker. Much more so than the Pro-Q from the UK, which I bought before I learned about the better - American made version!


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

I e-mailed the guy cappadona86michal [[email protected]] and innocently asked him if he was going to have any more for sale. His response was

"Hello, we start sell it on again on monday. We let you know."

The message has been copied and pasted exactly as received in his reply e-mail.


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 15, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Todd has the patents.
> And I believe was first.
> 
> Bear



UK registered patents?


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## hamrhead1971 (Jan 15, 2015)

I would be willing to bet that this item wouldn't actually ship from the UK.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 15, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> UK registered patents?


Todd told me one time, but I forgot.

US Patents, and it might have been International too, covering UK.

Bear


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

I did try to check on the Patent position a year or so ago as, when we could not buy them over here in the UK, I was looking to make something similar to sell. To be honest I could not find any reference to the A-maze-n Patent then with either the UK Patent Office or with Espacenet (which supposedly searches through  patent records from 90+ countries). Although the only reference to the Patent I can find is the mention of it on the forums I believe Todd when he says it is there. Maybe it is filed under some obscure reference and whoever is making these copies has not been able to find it either.

In any event I decided not to build to sell so that I did not to incur the wrath of anyone on here. Maybe Todd could to have a conversation with the US Patent Office to check whether his Patent is covered "Internationally".

editited to clarify the wording in the last paragraph.


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 15, 2015)

I am no patent lawyer but the fact that a US patent can be referenced in UK does not offer any protection. A third party won't be able to patent the product in UK but it won't prevent them from making/selling a similar product.


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

Maybe one thing driving this copy is the price that the AMNPS are being advertised for here. I know that you can buy the AMNPS 5x8 shipped to the UK direct from Todd's site for $70.24 however the only other obvious source I can see for purchasing one in the UK is through Amazon at a massive £88.20 (~$135) . Now that is some exchange rate!.


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> I am no patent lawyer but the fact that a US patent can be referenced in UK does not offer any protection. A third party won't be able to patent the product in UK but it won't prevent them from making/selling a similar product.


It should tell you whether it was an International Patent. I am not sure whether it would show up if it was US only though. I could not find any reference to it at all though.


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

gravey said:


> It does look more like the A-Maze-N Smoker. Much more so than the Pro-Q from the UK, which I bought before I learned about the better - American made version!


I also have a Pro-Q and have never got on with it. Others seem to have some success with it but for me it produces a piddly amount of smoke and keeps going out.


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## smokin monkey (Jan 15, 2015)

I have purchased one of these from Todd.

The thing that's obvious here is the lack of comment from Todd?

As a Business man myself I would be on the front foot with this "UK Copy" or is it a case that the Patent is only valid in the US?

We could have a Chicken & Egg situation here.

Just my opinion, and do not want to upset anybody, especially Todd.

Smokin Monkey [emoji]133660013031[/emoji]


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 15, 2015)

BTW, There is no such thing as International or worldwide patent. You need a patent granted in each country. There is a simplified process to apply for multiple countries (some kind of international agreement) that allows you to apply in your home country and gives you a certain time (one year I think) to decide if you want to apply in other countries . 

Patents applications are expensive.


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

That is true however levels of International protection can be obtained through the PCT (Patent Cooperation Treaty). But as you say it is expensive. The PCT is an international treaty with more than 145 Contracting States. The PCT makes it possible to seek patent protection for an invention simultaneously in a large number of countries by filing a single “international” patent application instead of filing several separate national or regional patent applications.

http://www.wipo.int/pct/en/

http://www.wipo.int/pct/en/faqs/faqs.html


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## dls1 (Jan 15, 2015)

> You're correct, Wade, but to clarify, an applicant does not apply for an “international” patent by filing an application under the PCT. There is no central authority with the power to grant an "International" or "world patent". The World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)  administers the PCT filing process which produces a single patent application that has been vetted for compliance with filing formalities and that has undergone a preliminary search and evaluation. This single application can then be transmitted to the national patent offices of as many PCT member countries as the applicant chooses, for filing as a "national-phase" application in that country or countries. The PCT thus streamlines and consolidates the process of seeking patent protection in more than one country into a single series of steps and a single set of preliminary requirements.


The PCT application process generally gives the applicant an additional 18 months to consider whether and in which country or countries to pursue patent protection. If the applicant first filed a patent application in the United States, then filed a PCT application within 12 months of the U.S. filing, the applicant would generally have an additional 18 months to nationalize the PCT application in the foreign country or countries in which the applicant desired patent protection. Once the application is nationalized in a particular country, the application will be examined under the local laws of each country to determine whether a patent should be granted.

At a bare minimum, I would estimate the costs of the initial PCT filing fees alone for a small entity to be in the area of $5,000 USD. Additional fees, if required, and associated legal fees could easily double or triple that. By far, the most expensive aspect of international patent procurement is the national-phase cost, which includes the fees paid to each national patent office for entrance into the national phase and during the patent prosecution process, the legal fees of local attorneys or agents to obtain a national patent, and the fees to the national patent office to maintain the granted patent in force.


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)

Smokin Monkey said:


> The thing that's obvious here is the lack of comment from Todd?


As Steve says, I guess until we find out from Todd where the patents were successfully filed we will not know whether the copy on sale here is perfectly legitimate or is actually breaching his copyright.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 15, 2015)

Wade said:


> As Steve says, I guess until we find out from Todd where the patents were successfully filed we will not know whether the copy on sale here is perfectly legitimate or is actually breaching his copyright.


Apparently Todd isn't worried about it, or he would say or do something about it.

I already said more than I should, which is why I haven't added anything to this discussion other than what I said in the beginning. It's Todd's business---Not mine.

And he handles it very well.

Bear


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## smokin monkey (Jan 15, 2015)

Bearcarver said:


> Apparently Todd isn't worried about it, or he would say or do something about it.
> I already said more than I should, which is why I haven't added anything to this discussion other than what I said in the beginning. It's Todd's business---Not mine.
> And he handles it very well.
> 
> ...



Hi Bear, we are all one big family on this forum, I am sure  we will all support  Todd. 

Smokin Monkey


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## wade (Jan 15, 2015)




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## Bearcarver (Jan 15, 2015)

Smokin Monkey said:


> Hi Bear, we are all one big family on this forum, I am sure we will all support Todd.
> 
> Smokin Monkey


Of Course---I know that----I just don't want to talk about his business. He can do that for himself.

Bear


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## gravey (Jan 15, 2015)

I agree about the Pro-Q. Got it as a Christmas gift one year, and never really cared for it.


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## red adaire (Jan 17, 2015)

As of today they appear to be back on sale.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 17, 2015)

Right now it says:

*This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.*

Bear


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## red adaire (Jan 17, 2015)

Try this link Bear 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171642873909?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

If that doesnt work try this item number  171642873909

Man I just hate buddies getting ripped off.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 17, 2015)

Red Adaire said:


> Try this link Bear
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171642873909?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm, I went to the Video at that link, and it said "Removed by owner".

I wanted to see if they ripped off a Video of an Amazing AMNPS too.

Bear


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## tjohnson (Jan 17, 2015)

Yup, it's a knockoff

I'm not going to get into a patent discussion on this or any other forum, as it's just not the place to discuss legal issues.  That's best for lawyers and courts!

EBay has been notified that his postings violate 2 of my 3 U.S. Patents.

I'll let Mr. Ian Mckend, the owner of ProQ deal with him in the UK.  He's very protective on his own turf!

Todd


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## red adaire (Jan 17, 2015)

Todd. Just hope I haven't opened a can of worms for you my friend.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 17, 2015)

TJohnson said:


> Yup, it's a knockoff
> 
> I'm not going to get into a patent discussion on this or any other forum, as it's just not the place to discuss legal issues.  That's best for lawyers and courts!
> 
> ...


Amen.

Bear


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## tjohnson (Jan 17, 2015)

Red Adaire said:


> Todd. Just hope I haven't opened a can of worms for you my friend.


Nope, not a can of worms at all, and thanks for the "Heads Up"!

Things like this happen, and we deal with them one at a time

This isn't the first knockoff and won't be the last

They really have to decide if the cost to defend a lawsuit is worth the couple bucks they make on knocking my gadgets off.

A patent attorney costs $400/hr.


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## smokin monkey (Jan 17, 2015)

TJohnson said:


> Yup, it's a knockoff
> 
> I'm not going to get into a patent discussion on this or any other forum, as it's just not the place to discuss legal issues.  That's best for lawyers and courts!
> EBay has been notified that his postings violate 2 of my 3 U.S. Patents.
> ...



Dignified Response, now we know, I am sure all members in the UK will do the right thing, and stay well clear of this listing.

Smokin Monkey [emoji]133660013031[/emoji]


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## tjohnson (Jan 17, 2015)

All he made was the top of the tray

He's missing the base!

Without the base, the thing will warp and twist

If I calculate this correctly, $35 US = 23 Pounds....Correct?

Add $20 to ship to the UK and we're at 36 Pounds Delivered...Correct?

Are my conversions correct?

Man, you guys in the UK got some buying power!!

Hmmm....????

Any Takers?


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## red adaire (Jan 17, 2015)

I have one of yours and it is used regularly and it is the best thing thats happened to my Trailmaster.


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## red adaire (Jan 19, 2015)

Bought mine through one of Todds agents in Australia for what its worth. Must have used it 50 times now and it is still as good as the day I bought it.


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## tjohnson (Jan 19, 2015)

The Pound must be strong against the U.S. Dollar

I got 6 orders this weekend from the UK!

Thanks Guys!


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## wade (Jan 19, 2015)

We will support you wherever we can Todd


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