# Smoke Vault Manual Say NEVER Smoke Dry - Why?



## endo129 (Dec 21, 2015)

My new SmokeVault say in the manual to NEVER leave the water pan empty, and never let it dry out during a smoke.

The water pan is new to me (even more so than smoking) and I know some of you still do not use the water pan in your SV. So my question is Why does it say to NEVER leave it empty?

Thanks,


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## bbqpit77 (Dec 23, 2015)

just remember that all the juices from the meat will drop to the pan, burning hot and making really bad smell. I have 2  SV 24" and never used empty, also it will help a lot to keep your temp at the same range. Enjoy your amazing smoker, i love mine. Some people dont like using water pans, at least i do.


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## daveomak (Dec 23, 2015)

Endo129 said:


> My new SmokeVault say in the manual to NEVER leave the water pan empty, and never let it dry out during a smoke.
> 
> The water pan is new to me (even more so than smoking) and I know some of you still do not use the water pan in your SV. So my question is Why does it say to NEVER leave it empty?
> 
> Thanks,



Probably because the smoker was designed by Engineering students that had never smoked any meat...  They probably built the smoker based on numerical data...


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## slysmoke (Dec 23, 2015)

I thought I saw a warning like that somewhere, but it was followed up by stating the pan could warp etc due to the heat not being absorbed by the water, hence another reason lots of folks fill their pan with sand.


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## foamheart (Dec 23, 2015)

Lets discuss water pans. Is your smoke vault an analog type smoker? Analog type smokers run a large delta "T", thats the high to low to achieve an average. An analog set at medium may modulate from 250 to 175 to achieve a 210 degree temperature. but going to extreme highs it can cause breaking and cracking of the skin especially with fowl. Also some don't come with vents. Why? because the smoker is engineered to only smoke untill the oxygen is depleted and then smother the embers causing smoke. If you re-open the case and re-introduce oxygen they will rekindle and smoke again. Its one of the reasons why with any electric smoker you should keep the doors closed as much as possible.

Some of the smokers are actually called Smoking, roasting, steaming and frying units. depending upon the set up. Seriously frying, its printed in the user manual. I doubt you'll see that though.

The water is to keep the meat moist, but my personal believe is to maintain humidity in the chamber so you do not all the fuel to flash. Dry smoker, dry chips, high temp, lots of oxygen equals flash. Flash go boom boom and shoots flames, not good. It can and does occurr, but when set up and maintained most smokers shouldn't see this. But I can shoot the reloader out the side of my MES30/40.

I use dry chips, wetting the chips IMHO is only to prolong the smolder till the meat has had a chance to heat up a little. Warm meat accepts the smoke better than cold meat. I can see no other explaination. But thats not the water pan.


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## remsr (Dec 24, 2015)

I have been reading that cold meat accepts smoke better than warm or hot. Is that a fact?


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## foamheart (Dec 24, 2015)

REMSR said:


> I have been reading that cold meat accepts smoke better than warm or hot. Is that a fact?


Not in my opinion. I can warm smoke bacon and in 6 hours and do what takes over two days in the cold.

I don't dispute their ideas about the ability to permeate thru the inter-bacon layers, but if I am getting the smoke flavor I want in 6 hours of warm smoking, why cold smoke for days? I believe that the heat causes the meat to become less dense (expanding the meat) allowing greater penetration. But its just my assumption, although I believe a scientist might tend to agree.

<shrugs> Like every other thing here, always multiple beliefs for each question.

My suggestion is, try it both ways, see what you like.


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## remsr (Dec 24, 2015)

My common sense agrees with that. Thanks


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## daveomak (Dec 24, 2015)

REMSR said:


> I have been reading that cold meat accepts smoke better than warm or hot. Is that a fact?



According to a reputable sausage forum, the smoke penetration is deeper in cold smoked meats... 

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/meat-smoking/cold-smoking

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/about


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## bill1 (Dec 25, 2015)

My two cents is that cooking (raising a hunk of meat from a low temperature to a high temperature) is largely a time*temperature product, since it's about energy transfer.  Driving smoke-flavor molecules into meat is a diffusion process, and with such low diffusion rates for the large molecules that make up smoke flavoring, the variable time plays a larger role than temperature in the process.  So to get to a similar degree of "doneness" you'll always get the most smoke flavor by going ever lower in temp and slower in time.   

Back to water pans.  Now what about 77's comment that fats and oils dripping into a water pan result in bad odors?  I'm not understanding why that would be so?  I'm currently in the process of adding an "umbrella" to my water pan to divert dripping oils away from the water pan.  I'm concerned that otherwise the oil layer formed on top of the heavier water greatly reduces the moisture/humidity level that the water pan adds.


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## endo129 (Jan 2, 2016)

I always did it dry on my gas grill and was achieving some good even great results. Now on my SV I have used water and my only butt came out pretty good, not great (but that's a product of learning a new tool). I can learn to love the water. 

However, how does everyone dispose of this at the end? It was dark the one time I did it. Are the drippings, paired with the water, thin enough to just go down the drain without worrying about congieling in the pipes? I tend to treat it the same way I do any grease that I dispose of but maybe I'm being overly cautious. That's why I like the idea of just using it to catch the drippings; the water/dripping combo throws me in terms of disposal.


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## bill1 (Jan 3, 2016)

If you have plans (gravy, etc) for the drippings, some folks like to catch it in a separate pan on top of the water pan, others use a turkey baster to suck up the fats/oils floating on top of the water.  But it sounds like you just want to dispose of it all. In principle, the drain should be fine.  It's food-grade stuff so it's not like you'd be dumping smog-entrenched motor oil with heavy-metal additives down the drain. On the other hand, toilet drains are larger diameter than sink drains so you're a little less likely to clog up one of those. I would do about 3 flushes per pan (dilution is the solution, even though water and oil don't dilute that well!) and then follow with another 3 flushes to clean the gunk from the commode bowl.  (Best to do this after the missus has gone to bed.)  At least I've done it that way in the past. Then clean the pan with soap and water in the kitchen sink.  

However lately I just save up half-gallon and larger milk and juice jugs and pour the pan contents into those after things have cooled a bit.  Then dispose of them in the municipal trash.  I'm always somewhat surprised that even when things cool completely, there's not a lot of solids formed, which somewhat exonerates my wild drain-dumping days.  .    

I'll be curious what others have to say.  Esp from those who have worked in restaurants with large quantities of fats/oils to dispose.


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## cayotica (Mar 12, 2016)

Never! Never pour your water pan down the drain might look like there's not much that might not be much fat but there could be a lot of gelatin (as I found out when I poured my down the drain) the gelatin did what gelatin does and it clogged the drain .[emoji]9889[/emoji]️


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 12, 2016)




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## remsr (Mar 14, 2016)

Concerning water pans. slap your Dady Barbque, A 28 time grand champion winer with many first place wins, compeats using a WSM compeating with  pit-masters smoking on $15,000 rigs. He says never use a water pan. 
Jeff says in every recipe, "if you have a water pan use it" I trust both for different reasons, but wonder about the water pan. I currently have it filled with sand in both of my smokers and turn out good food with less clean up not to mention no issues with getting rid of water pan liquids. 
I foil my pans and change the foil after each smoke. On the other hand I have turned out some good food using the water pan in the past, especially pork ribs on a chepo gas  smoker that produces a bacon like flavor because of the gas and steam mix.
 So far the only advantage of not using the water pan seems to be the fast clean up ????


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## SmokinAl (Mar 14, 2016)

I have lava rocks on the bottom of my water pan, then cover them with water. IMHO water in the pan makes for a better finished product.

Al


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## remsr (Mar 14, 2016)

Only difference I can tell is in clean up.


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## bill1 (Mar 14, 2016)

SmokinAl said:


> I have lava rocks on the bottom of my water pan, then cover them with water. IMHO water in the pan makes for a better finished product.
> 
> Al


Lava rocks sticking up out of the water could help wick the water to the boiling surface and give some added humidity.  What's the idea in putting them in the bottom Al?


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## SmokinAl (Mar 14, 2016)

bill1 said:


> Lava rocks sticking up out of the water could help wick the water to the boiling surface and give some added humidity.  What's the idea in putting them in the bottom Al?


I think using lava rocks in the bottom of the pan keeps the water steaming better. The rocks say hot & in turn keep the water steaming. Usually I just cover them with maybe 1/2" of water. When all the water boils out the lava rocks act as a heat sink.

Al


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## johnmeyer (Mar 14, 2016)

Being an engineer, I did a lot of research, both here and elsewhere, to find results of actual tests, and also to discover the science of water and smoke. Based on everything I've read, and on a few experiments I did myself, I came to the following conclusions. I should add that I have a MES 30, and I was interested in what I should do with a smoking chamber that is sealed much tighter than most other types of smokers.

Moisture on the surface of the meat attracts and absorbs smoke particles. I never read anything that contradicts this. However, how does the moisture get there? It can get there in a number of ways:

1. Condensation. If you put your meat into a warm moist environment, and the meat is cold from the fridge, water will condense on the surface, just like you've seen all your life when you have a cold beverage in your hand on a warm damp evening. This explains, I think, the statement you reference that you get more smoke onto cold meat. Some people think it keeps the internal moisture in the meat, but Cooks Illustrated magazine ran some tests which completely debunked that theory (they cooked meats dry, and also braised them in liquid, weighing them before and after, and the moisture lost was identical). The main thing that determines moisture loss is the final internal temperature.

2. Sweating. As meat heats up, the moisture from the meat is forced to the surface, and the meat sweats. This surface moisture attracts smoke. As a separate, but related process, that water evaporates. This cools the meat and, with a big chunk of meat, like a pork butt, the temperature coming in from the relatively low 225 degree smoker (typical temp) eventually matches the heat carried away by the evaporation, and you get the dreaded "stall" where the internal temperature ceases to rise for 3-6 hours.

3. Mopping. Many people mop or spray their meat every hour or two. This adds flavor (the mop is usually some sort of sugar-based liquid, with a little booze thrown in, just to make the meat "happy"), but it also provide surface moisture to attract more smoke. This explains why it helps build up bark.

So, moisture from the water pan can add to the moisture on the surface of the meat for the first hour or two, when the meat is cold, and the moisture condenses on the surface of the meat. After that, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that moisture from the pan does anything for the meat, either by increasing smoke absorption, or by helping retain internal moisture.

In some smokers, the water in the pan helps stabilize the temperature inside the smoker, because water has a large heat capacity and therefore takes a long time to change its temperature. With smokers that have thermostats, like most electric smokers, this feature isn't needed at all.

So my initial conclusion, with my MES, was that I only needed enough water to last for a few hours. So for many months I was adding 1-2 cups of boiling water in the pan at the time I added the meat. Since the water was already hot, it immediately filled the smoker with moisture, and I got condensation on the cold meat. By the time the meat got warm (70-80 degrees) the water had mostly evaporated. Someone in this forum suggested this method.

However, I then realized that I could simply spray a mop on the meat and get the same thing. Since the water pan is a pain to fill, drain, and clean, and since the condensation from the water pan would drip down the MES door and leak out the bottom, I eventually nixed the water in the pan. Since the smoker has a thermostat, I didn't bother to fill the pan with sand.

So I am no using water at the moment.

But, I may go back to it, or do the sand trick because I have found that I am getting a lot of radiated heat from the heating element, and that when I do smoked almonds one tray will burn and the other will be fine. The heat distribution inside the smoker doesn't account for this, and I think I need the thermal mass of either sand or water to protect the food from the direct heat of the heating coil.


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## daveomak (Mar 14, 2016)

Wood smoke contains fine *particulate matter*, *carbon monoxide*, *formaldehyde*, *sulfur dioxide* and various irritant gases such as *nitrogen oxides* that can scar the lungs. Wood smoke also contains chemicals known or suspected to be carcinogens, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (*PAHs*) and *dioxin*.

IMO, if there is moisture on the surface of stuff inside the smoker, and the smoke absorbs into the moisture, you have just created "acid rain".. 

The flavor is a stinging, bitter, acrid taste on the tongue...   I don't care for it......   I have never had that taste from a piece of meat that had a proper pellicle formed while smoking in a moisture free environment....


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## johnmeyer (Mar 14, 2016)

DaveOmak said:


> Wood smoke contains fine *particulate matter*, *carbon monoxide*, *formaldehyde*, *sulfur dioxide* and various irritant gases such as *nitrogen oxides* that can scar the lungs. Wood smoke also contains chemicals known or suspected to be carcinogens, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (*PAHs*) and *dioxin*.
> 
> IMO, if there is moisture on the surface of stuff inside the smoker, and the smoke absorbs into the moisture, you have just created "acid rain"..
> 
> The flavor is a stinging, bitter, acrid taste on the tongue...   I don't care for it......   I have never had that taste from a piece of meat that had a proper pellicle formed while smoking in a moisture free environment....


Wow, I'd better give up smoking (meat), especially since there is no way to remove moisture from the surface of the food (since it sweats).

You're right about the bitter stinging taste. That's really awful stuff.


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## daveomak (Mar 14, 2016)

johnmeyer said:


> > Wow, I'd better give up smoking (meat), especially since there is no way to remove moisture from the surface of the food (since it sweats).
> 
> 
> You're right about the bitter stinging taste. That's really awful stuff.


Placing the meat in a smoker, no smoke, at a temp about 120 ish with good air flow, will dry the surface and form a pellicle...   Then smoke application will result in sweet tasting meat... 

.... Salmon with a dry pellicle prior to smoking......                      ...Turkey that was dried prior to smoking.......













Pellicle NICE.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Mar 14, 2016





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jan2013Turkey Sectioned.jpg



__ daveomak
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...Pork ribs with a pellicle ......                 ...Pork loins ... pellicle and smoke...  Nice clear smoke layer...













Labor Day Ribs 3.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Mar 14, 2016





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Pork Loin 2-19-17 1.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Feb 19, 2016






If you noticed the clarity of the smoke on the meats....  No creosote....   Water is not meats friend, when it comes to smoke..... 

.....  Dave


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## remsr (Mar 15, 2016)

Dave,
Can you create this pellicle in the refrigerator?
Randy,


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## daveomak (Mar 15, 2016)

REMSR said:


> Dave,
> Can you create this pellicle in the refrigerator?
> Randy,


  In my experience, a pellicle can be formed in a smoker at 120 ish in an hour or so with lots of air flow....   or in front of a fan on a wire rack at room temp, once the meat has warmed up to room temp.....    Meat that is refer temp, will form condensate which dissolves the water soluble protein based pellicle or at least, makes it difficult to form......  There are no health concerns leaving meat out at room temperature, once cured, for several hours or even a day to form a pellicle...   Meat that has been cured and then cold smoked, will often sit at temps in the 50-70 degree range for weeks with no ill effects....

Culinary Institute of America... ...http://chefsblade.monster.com/training/articles/966-how-to-smoke-meat?page=2
[h4]*Pellicle formation*[/h4]
Before cured foods are smoked, they should be allowed to air-dry long enough to form a tacky skin, known as a pellicle. The pellicle plays a key role in producing excellent smoked items. It acts as a kind of protective barrier for the food, and also plays an important role in capturing the smoke’s flavor and color.

Most foods can be properly dried by placing them on racks or by hanging them on hooks or sticks. It is important that air be able to flow around all sides. They should be air-dried uncovered, in the refrigerator or a cool room. To encourage pellicle formation, you can place the foods so that a fan blows air over them. The exterior of the item must be sufficiently dry if the smoke is to adhere.

As noted in the pictorials below from Marianski, cold smoke penetrates farther into cool meat than hot smoking....   So, cold smoked products will "appear" to have less smoke...  In my experience here also, the flavor is deep into the meat and a rich depth of flavor not experienced when smoke is applied hot...













meat-smoking-hot.gif



__ daveomak
__ Oct 18, 2015





 ...













meat-smoking-cold.gif



__ daveomak
__ Oct 18, 2015


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## bill1 (Mar 15, 2016)

Thanks Al.  Boiling water does have a lot of convection currents at play.  The sticky surfaces under water may add a little turbulence which could aid the steaming, which you seem to say you're convinced is an empirical fact. Have you tried letting a few stick out above the surface?  Might help even more.   

And John mentions a frequently under-appreciated benefit of steam--it has far greater heat content than dry air so helps maintain uniform cooking temperatures in a smoker.


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## bill1 (Mar 15, 2016)

This "page 2" discussion which I initially overlooked points out the great unknowns in the ideal "time profile" of humidity in cooking.  Blonder has a nice article on the application of humidity in cooking,and he's quite a believer in its benefits and that it's the next great frontier in cooking science.  

I'm working on an outer autofill system for my water tray, also adding a filament on the bottom of the tray to control the amount of steam generated, but as to what is the best humidity-vs-time profile for actually cooking, I haven't a clue, although Dave makes a good case for starting dry and others make a case for ending dry.


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## daveomak (Mar 15, 2016)

bill1 said:


> This "page 2" discussion which I initially overlooked points out the great unknowns in the ideal "time profile" of humidity in cooking.  Blonder has a nice article on the application of humidity in cooking,and he's quite a believer in its benefits and that it's the next great frontier in cooking science.
> 
> I'm working on an outer autofill system for my water tray, also adding a filament on the bottom of the tray to control the amount of steam generated, but as to what is the best humidity-vs-time profile for actually cooking, I haven't a clue, although Dave makes a good case for starting dry and others make a case for ending dry.


Humidity in a home smoker is different than steam....   Steam is dry... there is no water in steam....   Steam is used in commercial smokers as a heat source to cook the meats etc.... 

Some articles try to represent moisture like it was steam and don't define the differences...  or, some folks that read about steam cooking translate it to humidity not knowing the difference....

Humidity at the start of a smoking cycle will kill the pellicle formation, or erase the pellicle as it is made from water soluble proteins....  

Anyhow, some so called internet experts, when it comes to smoking meats, are always allowed their opinions and wet smoking has been discussed Ad nauseam .... *Ad nauseam* is a Latin term for disgust that has continued so long that it has continued "to [the point of] nausea".[sup][1][/sup][sup][2][/sup] For example, the sentence "This topic has been discussed _ad nauseam_" signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it.[sup][[/sup]

The above relates to "classical" meat smoking as our forefathers have done at temperatures below 170 degrees F....  Currently smoking meats have come to encompass grilling and adding smoke at higher temps...  Methods for smoking meats has become twisted into many different applications such that it is unrecognizable...

You may choose to "smoke meats" as some manufacturer has deemed appropriate using their equipment, and that's OK....  There are many on this forum, including myself, that attempt to replicate "Olde World" methods to recapture the flavors and textures of the past...  You are welcome to come along for the ride.......


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 15, 2016)

High humidity combination cooking is nothing new. Combi-Ovens and Water Smokers have been around several decades. They are just not often used Low and Slow. Myron Mixon made his fortune with his Water Smokers and banging out Brisket and Butt in a few hours at 300+ degrees. Chain Restaurants have used gas and electric Steamer Oven/Smokers a long time to keep up with the volume they do of a few smoked items as opposed to a NC Smoke House that sells only Whole Hog Pulled Pork. These high humidity cookers are just a faster and different method of getting the job done compared to the age old low and slow dry Wood Pits used in the Southern States. It would make sense that if Steam speeds Smoking and keeps meat moist at high temps it would be great at low and slow smoking as well but the concept does not take into consideration that the bad tasting components in smoke accumulate on wet meat faster than dry meat and over a long slow smoke can result in bitter tasting food...JJ


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## remsr (Mar 15, 2016)

Thank's Dave, 
That answers my question.


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## cayotica (Dec 5, 2016)

I know this is an old thread I am posting on, however, I have a MES digital smoker, I have smoked with water in the pan, without water in the pan,  let the pan go dry and even put water in a foil pan right beneath the meat. Honestly, I cannot tell the difference  between any of them. 
Happy smoking [emoji]128055[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji][emoji]128055[/emoji]


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## remsr (Dec 7, 2016)

Yah, I have had good results with all that you mentioned, but when I read the instructions of a 28 time grand champion smoking with an 181/2" WSM who said "don't fill the water pan wither water" I filled mine with sand and covered it with foil and never looked back, if the result is basically the same why bother with the messy water pan clean up that no one really likes? MES smokers don't need extra moisture and if you do need moisture in a WSM or the like then spritz every hour or so after the bark is set. I foil almost every thing I smoke after it receives a fair amount of smoke to avoid stalls and moisture problems. Everything has been coming out consistently good and I don't have to deal with a messy water pan anymore.

Randy,


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## recoush (May 26, 2017)

Hum,

Curious seems Like the pros and cons are the same of using water VS. Sand or Nothing

Question

how does sand work  vs. Water ?

Maybe this just depends on trial and error and the smoker using water ?

wondering what is used more often when smokers are using  Propane fuel

Newbie over thinking and checking in :>)

Recoush


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## remsr (May 27, 2017)

I always used a water pan in my propane smoker because I had not yet heard of Smoking meat forms. 
In all of Jeff's recipes he says "if you have a water pan use it. I don't know why and I have never ask. I fallow his instructions to the letter except for the water in the pan and I don't always use his rubs and sauce, but I can testify that they are good.
Most everyone on the forms that I have gotten to know in the past 3 years do not put water in the pan. Some go empty and foil the pan top and bottom, some fill the pan with sand that acts as a heat sink. It has to do with water boils at 212 and never gets any hotter and sand heats to a higher degree and holds the heat. I read all about the benefit of using sand but I have forgotten most of what I read. What I know for sure is that it woks for me and clean up is easy and fast.

Randy,


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## recoush (May 28, 2017)

Thank you, that is exactly what i need to know, Guess the water is good thing,

Would you then use sand for ribs etc (to maintain heat) or stay with water regardless?

Recoush


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