# Bacon troubles



## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

I have tried to make bacon twice thus far with mixed results. Both times I used the recipe from Charcuterie by Ruhlman and Polcyn with the dextrose cure (450g salt/425g dextros/75g pink salt) and some other flavorings (brown sugar, bay, garlic etc.). The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days. I rinsed then had my dad smoke them because I didn't have a smoker. The bacon ended up overwhelmingly salty and had an off taste, I think I could taste the pink salt in the mixture. Pretty much inedible.

The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings. I stored the bacon in the fridge in a pyrex dish with a lid, flipping every couple of days and rubbing in the liquids that came out/cure to make sure it was evenly coated. This time I roasted he bacon in a 200 degree oven because I didn't have access to a smoker. This time the bacon turned out pretty well, good flavor, but it wasn't salty enough and I think the fat developed a slight off flavor/rancidity. I assume I didn't use quite enough cure this time.

I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?


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## chefrob (Jan 6, 2011)

haven't used cure #1 yet so i won't speak of what might have gone wrong. the only thing i could stress is the correct weight of meat and cure............some one will be along soon to help. i for one will be watching this since i just picked up some cure #1 and want to try something different oher than high mountain.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

The cure to meat ratio is part of what confuses me. In Charcuterie they mention using 50g of cure (about 1/4c) for 3-5lbs of belly which is a huge window. Is there a more specific guideline? It is very possible I missed it.

edit: Also, I assume that cure #1 and pink salt are the same thing? That will help my searching.


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

this may help you

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I have tried to make bacon twice thus far with mixed results. Both times I used the recipe from Charcuterie by Ruhlman and Polcyn with the dextrose cure (450g salt/13oz dextros/3oz pink salt) and some other flavorings (brown sugar, bay, garlic etc.). The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days. I rinsed then had my dad smoke them because I didn't have a smoker. The bacon ended up overwhelmingly salty and had an off taste, I think I could taste the pink salt in the mixture. Pretty much inedible.
> 
> The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings. I stored the bacon in the fridge in a pyrex dish with a lid, flipping every couple of days and rubbing in the liquids that came out/cure to make sure it was evenly coated. This time I roasted he bacon in a 200 degree oven because I didn't have access to a smoker. This time the bacon turned out pretty well, good flavor, but it wasn't salty enough and I think the fat developed a slight off flavor/rancidity. I assume I didn't use quite enough cure this time.
> 
> I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?


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## fpnmf (Jan 6, 2011)

It looks like you are using too much pink salt.

I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.

It also looks like you just rinsed it and didn't soak it or test fry it.

Roasting it to 200 is too hot,it starts rendering the fat.

Read Bears recipe and try it as written.

Good luck.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview  

This also is good reading.

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

mudduck said:


> this may help you
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview


do you guys have TQ or can you get it


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.

Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.

I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)

http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

xjcamaro said:


> If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)
> 
> http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


you mite fine it at your county co-op


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recipes, I will read them over when I get a chance. Also, I had a 200 degree oven, I roasted to 150.

How do you know I am using to much pink salt? The first try I think I did, the second, I thought I used too little because of the slightly off flavor in the bacon fat? Is there a ratio I should follow?




xjcamaro said:


> If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)
> 
> http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


What is the difference between tender quick and pink salt?


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


From the website you linked 3lbs of meat calls for about 0.1oz of pink salt, given a homogeneous mixture of the cure I use, I end up with about the same amount, maybe 0.02-0.04g too much. Is this small amount really significant? Although as a percentage it is, I guess.

I thought the soak was if the bacon turns out too salty. Certainly the first time I tried this was an issue, but it wasn't the second considering I thought it could have used a little more salt. Should I still try to soak it?

Lastly, I roasted in a 200 degree oven until the meat was 150 degrees.

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. I know following a recipe might be easier, but I really want to understand the process too!




xjcamaro said:


> I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.
> 
> Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.
> 
> I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


From my understanding of what TQ is when I mix salt, dextrose and pink salt am I not just making a homemade version TQ?


fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


From the website you linked 3lbs of meat calls for about 0.1oz of pink salt, given a homogeneous mixture of the cure I use, I end up with about the same amount, maybe 0.02-0.04g too much. Is this small amount really significant? Although as a percentage it is, I guess.

I thought the soak was if the bacon turns out too salty. Certainly the first time I tried this was an issue, but it wasn't the second considering I thought it could have used a little more salt. Should I still try to soak it?

Lastly, I roasted in a 200 degree oven until the meat was 150 degrees.

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. I know following a recipe might be easier, but I really want to understand the process too!




xjcamaro said:


> I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.
> 
> Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.
> 
> I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


From my understanding of what TQ is when I mix salt, dextrose and pink salt am I not just making a homemade version TQ?


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## mballi3011 (Jan 6, 2011)

Personally I don't care how much cure the book says I go by what is recommended on the cure package itself. Cures are nothing to mess with for theycan hurt you I have heard and that works for me. I have used pink salt and tenderquick before and they are really different in the amounts that you should use. Now there is one good thing that Bear had in his how-to thread is the fry test. You should fry a piece before you smoke it and that way you can see if it's too salty or not salty enough. Then you can smoke it to your likings.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

Sorry about the confusing double posts above. For some reason it was moderated and my changes do not appear properly. On top of that I cannot edit it. The second post (which is repeated twice in the same post) are my current questions.


mballi3011 said:


> Personally I don't care how much cure the book says I go by what is recommended on the cure package itself. Cures are nothing to mess with for theycan hurt you I have heard and that works for me. I have used pink salt and tenderquick before and they are really different in the amounts that you should use. Now there is one good thing that Bear had in his how-to thread is the fry test. You should fry a piece before you smoke it and that way you can see if it's too salty or not salty enough. Then you can smoke it to your likings.


The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.


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## chefrob (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days.
> 
> The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings.


a couple of things kept nagging at me about these two lines and i just couldn't let them go, i'm just trying to understand the process.........

no matter how much your "cure mix" ingredients were on as far as amounts by weight, how could you ensure the right amount of cure #1 was actually on the meat if by "dredging" the bellys? the other thing is when you measured a 1/4 C. of "mix" how did you come up with that amount based on 3 lbs of belly and how do you know how much cure #1 was in that 1/4 cup if a big batch of "mix" was made and you just scooped out a 1/4 cup?

also on another note fat starts to render around 128 deg so i normaly don't go over 125 when smoking my  bacon that i will fully cook at a later time.


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## papagreer (Jan 6, 2011)

Also, from reading Bears post multiple times over the last couple weeks, when you measure out the TQ and sprinkle it on the meat, any of the TQ that doesnt stick needs to go in the bag as well to keep the ratio correct. Dont know if that helps but I assume that goes for any cure that you are using. Just make sure the full amount ends up in the bag.

And 200 degrees is def on the hot side. Like chefrob said, 125 or under is optimal. I would keep it 100 or under and just extend the smoking time if its way below that. AS far as Im concerned, Bears tutorial is awesome. Thats what I will be following when I take a stab at bacon.

Chris


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## desertlites (Jan 6, 2011)

The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.---------     you need to read up on your different types of cures and there ratios of use-not all cures are used the same-for the new bacon maker I suggest mix's like buckboard ETC-yes it works great on slab also-and as mentioned soak your meat after the cure process several times as needed and by all means do your fry tests --always test fry what your going to smoke (bacon-sausage etc ) also don't COOK your bacon at 200* smoke it in steps starting around 90* and work up to 110-120. I havn't been around this site since the change but if you did some searching you will find Alot of good info from the pros like Pineywoods and others-just keep it safe and practice practice practice. good luck


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## ak1 (Jan 6, 2011)

If your "pink salt" came without any instructions, I would be wary of using it, unless you know for sure what it is.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

chefrob said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days.
> ...


I was following the directions in the book "Charcuterie." They say either the dredge method or using 1/4C (or 50 grams, I used weight) of their cure will work. As far as knowing the right amount of cure is present in a given amount, he same question could be asked of any other spice rub or Mortons TQ. You can assume a homogeneous mixture if it is properly if the particles are similarly sized (which they are) so an amount removed will maintain the initial ratios.

I appreciate the note about the fat. If I do smoke the bacon at a higher temperature will that affect the end result, aside from rendering some fat and possibly cooking it slightly?




desertlites said:


> The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.---------     you need to read up on your different types of cures and there ratios of use-not all cures are used the same-for the new bacon maker I suggest mix's like buckboard ETC-yes it works great on slab also-and as mentioned soak your meat after the cure process several times as needed and by all means do your fry tests --always test fry what your going to smoke (bacon-sausage etc ) also don't COOK your bacon at 200* smoke it in steps starting around 90* and work up to 110-120. I havn't been around this site since the change but if you did some searching you will find Alot of good info from the pros like Pineywoods and others-just keep it safe and practice practice practice. good luck


That is exactly what I have been doing. I have been searching, but sometimes I find it a little hard to find what I need. For example, I still don't know why the second batch wasn't salty enough and should I really soak even if it isn't salty enough?

I really think the fry test is a great idea and will certainly try it next time!


AK1 said:


> If your "pink salt" came without any instructions, I would be wary of using it, unless you know for sure what it is.


I bought if from a reputable butcher supply company. It came labeled, just not with specific usage instructions.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

Im not trying to be mean, but i think you need to find a basic recipe and try it on a small peice of the belly. Save the rest of the belly so you dont ruin the whole thing. It seems like you are trying to make changes to the recipes or methods that didnt work.

What i would do, and this is just me, is find a basic recipe using the ingredients you have. And follow it to a T. Dont change anything, and try a small slab. Before you go making your own changes to a recipe i would find a basic one that works. And experiment with small peices as not to throw out a whole belly.

You need a good base to start on, find something simple that works. Then move on and make small changes. Once you get a good recipe that gives you good quality plain bacon. Then start making your little changes with the spices as you should probably not make changes to the cure (hazzardous).

Just a thought, and just trying to help you keep from having to throw out a bad belly.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?


The first thing you might do is stop making Bacon & trying to kill yourself, until you learned enough to be able to make Bacon safely.

Very Very few people try to START with Bacon. Try some butts, ribs, chicken, chuckies, etc first.

Then take the time to read a whole mess of threads on this forum, like most of us did, while you're still able to read.

Bacon isn't hard to make, but when you're talking about "dredging" your Pork Belly in cure, you gotta do some more searching.

I might sound nasty, but it had to be said.

I have helped many people on here with a lot of different things, including Bacon, but you gotta do some research.

My "Bacon" step by step shows exactly how to make Bacon with Tender Quick, but there are others that show how to make it with other cures.

So do some other stuff first, then keep researching Bacon. Then write out a step by step plan of your own, and post it before you do it. That way people can review it and make suggestions, and maybe keep you alive.

Sorry, I don't usually get rough in my posts, but you are scaring me.

Bear


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## desertlites (Jan 6, 2011)

like Bear says read up on the whole bacon making thing-It is really easy and twice as good--I just went to the beginings of the bacon threads and all the old pros are back there with alot of helpful info on there trials-heck some old pics that I forgot about too-yumm!! here at the asin market I can get 1-2# chunks of belly to play with different flavors-still go back to High mtn. though.


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## chefrob (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> > I was following the directions in the book "Charcuterie." They say either the dredge method or using 1/4C (or 50 grams, I used weight) of their cure will work. As far as knowing the right amount of cure is present in a given amount, he same question could be asked of any other spice rub or Mortons TQ. You can assume a homogeneous mixture if it is properly if the particles are similarly sized (which they are) so an amount removed will maintain the initial ratios.


 no, with other cures the nitrite is bonded to ensure even distribution. think of a bag full of rocks and feathers both are the same size. shake the bag and see what happens.......the rocks and feathers separate due to their mass. the same with your own mix of cure, salt, sugar and other ingredients.....size has nothing to do with it.


> I appreciate the note about the fat. If I do smoke the bacon at a higher temperature will that affect the end result, aside from rendering some fat and possibly cooking it slightly?


 i think so, but only on a preference level. i've done my buckboards from 155 internal all the way to no heat at all. for me, i prefer around 125 but that may change for belly when i start doing them.


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## fpnmf (Jan 6, 2011)

>>>>>>>>>I was following the directions in the book "Charcuterie."  

I went back and read my copy a little while ago. I love that book.

I don't care for his bacon recipe. Seems like it has several scenarios.

I apologize for yanking your chain about not soaking...they don't say to do it.

But they did say to test fry it.

They also are kinda back and forth about smoking or as you said "roasting".

Two different things that they just don't make real clear.

Anyway...I did a bunch of smoking before I started making bacon.

Asked a lot of questions and read a bunch before starting.

I think whatever recipe you choose..you must follow it exactly.

Craig


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

Quote:


Bearcarver said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?
> ...


I have smoked other things (chicken, salmon, trout, all sorts of pork and beef cuts) before with family on their equipment, I just now got my own smoker.

The dredging step was taken directly from the book Charcuterie by Ruhlman and Polcyn. I assumed the book was written with safety in mind considering the topic and praise the book received. I did not make it up myself. I came to this site after I realized the technique didn't work to find help. I have been researching and have found useful recipes and tips, but have not figured out why (or if) this recipe doesn't work.

I assume when I dredged (again following directions from Charcuterie) I got too much pink salt. The second batch was well cured, I think, but to my taste was not salty enough. I think I might have detected a slight off taste in the fat, but that could have been from a variety of issues (i.e., storage). I am just interested in troubleshooting these issues and finding out if the recipe in Charcuterie is safe and good. If it isn't I will look elsewhere.


fpnmf said:


> >>>>>>>>>I was following the directions in the book "Charcuterie."
> 
> I went back and read my copy a little while ago. I love that book.
> 
> ...


It is hard to follow the recipe in Charcuterie exactly, that is part of my problem there is too much variation. Do you have a recipe you recommend that utilizes pink salt? I can't really find a good listing of recipes on this site.


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## ak1 (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> AK1 said:
> 
> 
> > If your "pink salt" came without any instructions, I would be wary of using it, unless you know for sure what it is.
> ...


At this point, I would guess that what you have is cure #1. If so, it's a pretty standard dilution of 4 oz of PP1 to 100 lbs of meat. It works out to  2 tsp of cure per 10 lbs of meat. To be safe I would contact the butcher supply and find out exactly what their recommendation is as far as curing. This is not something you want to be wrong about.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

AK1 said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > AK1 said:
> ...


It is this: http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=237_12&products_id=55

"All pink tinted cures have the same sodium nitrite concentration, which is 6.25%. Prague Powder # 1, Insta-Cure, Modern Cure are all the same." So it is cure #1.

I guess Ruhlman is wrong when he says to use 2tsp per 5lbs of belly here: http://ruhlman.com/2010/10/home-cured-bacon-2.html ? I just found the post and reading it he does seem pretty lax about food safety.


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## fpnmf (Jan 6, 2011)

<<<<<<<<It is hard to follow the recipe in Charcuterie exactly, that is part of my problem there is too much variation. Do you have a recipe you recommend that utilizes pink salt? I can't really find a good listing of recipes on this site.  

And then

<<<<<At this point, I would guess that what you have is cure #1. If so, it's a pretty standard dilution of 4 oz of PP1 to 100 lbs of meat. It works out to  2 tsp of cure per 10 lbs of meat. To be safe I would contact the butcher supply and find out exactly what their recommendation is as far as curing. This is not something you want to be wrong about.  

Honestly I just couldn't see how to use that tiny bit of cure #1 on such a large flat piece.

Many do it tho.

I use cure #1 making sausage for several reasons.

1. Most recipes call for less salt than is in TQ.

2. It mixes with a liquid that is mixed with the meat.

I use TQ on the bacon because I like the idea of lots of it slathered all over the slab.

Reread the link I posted about curing salts. Not enough or too much can be dangerous.

 Craig


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## DanMcG (Jan 6, 2011)

I just looked up the mix recipes from Charcuterie and I feel the dextrose cure is a little high on the Cure #1. On the other hand the granulated sugar mix although a little on the salty side is real close to what you want for the amount of cure.

The maximum amount of nitrite allowed in a dry rubbed bacon  by the USDA is 200 PPM (parts per million),  For a 3 pound belly the granular sugar mix works out to 158ppm and the dextrose mix is 237.  I think 120 is the minimum allowed.

For a 3 pound skinless belly I'd use;

Salt              25 grams

Brown Sugar 14 grams

cure #1          3 grams

I rinse off the belly after 5-7 days of curing. (it doesn't need soaking but you can) and let it dry in the frig uncovered to dry, then cold smoke it with no heat for 4-6 hours or longer, until it has good color.


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## pops6927 (Jan 6, 2011)

Just to toss a big ol' wrench right in the middle of this..... try *WET curing**  *instead of dry curing ... mix up ½ cup to 1 cup salt, 1 cup brown sugar, 1 cup plain ol' sugar, 1 tbsp. pink salt, and 1 gallon of water.  Dump your meat in a bucket, cover it with brine, let it sit for 5 - 7 days in the fridge, don't flip it, don't massage it, don't examine it.. just let it sit and cure.  Make up multiple batches as necessary or partial batches to cover it in brine. Toss a ziploc gallon bag half full of water (push the air out) on top of it to weight it down first.  After it cures, dump the brine, fry test (you don't need to soak ("freshen") it either!), smoke and enjoy!

Got two 16 lb. turkeys pickling as we speak... leave 'em alone for 6 days while we go on a cruise, no fuss no muss no flip no dredge no massage no foolin'...!  A smoker full of yum when we get home!


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## fpnmf (Jan 6, 2011)

Pops6927 said:


> Just to toss a big ol' wrench right in the middle of this..... try *WET curing**  *instead of dry curing ... mix up ½ cup to 1 cup salt, 1 cup brown sugar, 1 cup plain ol' sugar, 1 tbsp. pink salt, and 1 gallon of water.  Dump your meat in a bucket, cover it with brine, let it sit for 5 - 7 days in the fridge, don't flip it, don't massage it, don't examine it.. just let it sit and cure.  Make up multiple batches as necessary or partial batches to cover it in brine. Toss a ziploc gallon bag half full of water (push the air out) on top of it to weight it down first.  After it cures, dump the brine, fry test (you don't need to soak ("freshen") it either!), smoke and enjoy!
> 
> Got two 16 lb. turkeys pickling as we speak... leave 'em alone for 6 days while we go on a cruise, no fuss no muss no flip no dredge no massage no foolin'...!  A smoker full of yum when we get home!


Heck yeah!!! I am sold on that!!

Thanks Pops and have a great trip!!

Craig


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## meateater (Jan 6, 2011)

Wow, don't kill yourself. We had a member a while back that thought that if 1 was good 2 is better and was sick as heck all night with nitrite/nitrate poisoning. Follow the directions right down to the letter with whatever brand you use and be patient. Did I say be patient, if I didn't say be patient be patient. Listen to the folks that have done this a time or two on here and be patient.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> I just looked up the mix recipes from Charcuterie and I feel the dextrose cure is a little high on the Cure #1. On the other hand the granulated sugar mix although a little on the salty side is real close to what you want for the amount of cure.
> 
> The maximum amount of nitrite allowed in a dry rubbed bacon  by the USDA is 200 PPM (parts per million),  For a 3 pound belly the granular sugar mix works out to 158ppm and the dextrose mix is 237.  I think 120 is the minimum allowed.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the recipe. I assume I should toss out the cure I made from Charcuterie and start from scratch measuring each item as I go rather than mixing it all together? Also, no problems will arise if I toss in some aromatics (garlic, herbs, pepper etc.), correct?




Pops6927 said:


> Just to toss a big ol' wrench right in the middle of this..... try *WET curing**  *instead of dry curing ... mix up ½ cup to 1 cup salt, 1 cup brown sugar, 1 cup plain ol' sugar, 1 tbsp. pink salt, and 1 gallon of water.  Dump your meat in a bucket, cover it with brine, let it sit for 5 - 7 days in the fridge, don't flip it, don't massage it, don't examine it.. just let it sit and cure.  Make up multiple batches as necessary or partial batches to cover it in brine. Toss a ziploc gallon bag half full of water (push the air out) on top of it to weight it down first.  After it cures, dump the brine, fry test (you don't need to soak ("freshen") it either!), smoke and enjoy!
> 
> Got two 16 lb. turkeys pickling as we speak... leave 'em alone for 6 days while we go on a cruise, no fuss no muss no flip no dredge no massage no foolin'...!  A smoker full of yum when we get home!


That does sound nice. What is the difference in the end result between dry and wet curing?


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## Bearcarver (Jan 7, 2011)

Pops6927 said:


> Just to toss a big ol' wrench right in the middle of this..... try *WET curing**  *instead of dry curing ... mix up ½ cup to 1 cup salt, 1 cup brown sugar, 1 cup plain ol' sugar, 1 tbsp. pink salt, and 1 gallon of water.  Dump your meat in a bucket, cover it with brine, let it sit for 5 - 7 days in the fridge, don't flip it, don't massage it, don't examine it.. just let it sit and cure.  Make up multiple batches as necessary or partial batches to cover it in brine. Toss a ziploc gallon bag half full of water (push the air out) on top of it to weight it down first.  After it cures, dump the brine, fry test (you don't need to soak ("freshen") it either!), smoke and enjoy!
> 
> Got two 16 lb. turkeys pickling as we speak... leave 'em alone for 6 days while we go on a cruise, no fuss no muss no flip no dredge no massage no foolin'...!  A smoker full of yum when we get home!


Exactly what Pops said (as usual) !

If I was going to use any of the cure #1s, I would never do anything but wet cure on any solid meat! ---PERIOD!

I do not believe John Doe can spread 1 ounce of anything over 25 pounds of meat evenly, or mix 1 ounce of cure evenly with 10 or 15 ounces of other things.

That may be just me, but there it is.

Bear


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

I was just at the store getting some belly and they had Morton's Tender Quick so I picked up a bag. My plan is to follow Bearcarver's recipe. I will also try using a brine sometime too. Sounds like both are good options.

I do have a question, which might be better posed in the bacon thread, but I figure since I have your attention I will ask here. The TQ says to cure for 8 hours with 0.5oz TQ/lb of meat, but Bearcarver says to cure for nine days. With the emphasis on following the instructions on the package and recipes what accounts for the discrepancy (this is my just trying to understand the process)?

I really do appreciate all the help.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 7, 2011)

I asked the same question about the package instructions when i got my first bag of TQ, i think those instructions are for quick tenderizing of meat before grilling/baking, not curing. If you follow bears instructions with the TQ, im positive that you will end up with a nice slab of bacon come a week and a half from now.

Just make sure you have a good accurate means of measuring the TQ per lb of meat.

Are you adding brown sugar to your bacon? If so, i recommend (from experience) rub the meat with the TQ first, then rub on the brown sugar. I think its safer that way, but i have also mixed the two together to rub it all on at once. The better way is to do them seperately.


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

xjcamaro said:


> I asked the same question about the package instructions when i got my first bag of TQ, i think those instructions are for quick tenderizing of meat before grilling/baking, not curing. If you follow bears instructions with the TQ, im positive that you will end up with a nice slab of bacon come a week and a half from now.
> 
> Just make sure you have a good accurate means of measuring the TQ per lb of meat.
> 
> Are you adding brown sugar to your bacon? If so, i recommend (from experience) rub the meat with the TQ first, then rub on the brown sugar. I think its safer that way, but i have also mixed the two together to rub it all on at once. The better way is to do them seperately.


Thanks for the answer, that makes sense. The instructions say he added brown sugar after, so that was my plan. Reading the recipe, it doesn't seem like the amount of brown sugar is too important? Also, if I wanted to include some other flavorings is that a problem? I generally like garlic, bay, pepper and some herbs in my bacon. I noticed that Bearcarver added spice powders before smoking, but would fresh aromatics in the dry rub work safely (if this is too much deviation I can save it for another day)?


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## xjcamaro (Jan 7, 2011)

Someone else might want to chime in on that one. The only thing i ever added was the equal amount of brown sugar. I dont even put any spice on mine before smoking.

You might be better off rubbing your aromatics on after the curing process is done and after you dry the meat, but before you stick it in the fridge to sit overnight before smoking. Just my thought.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 7, 2011)

avas38 said:


> xjcamaro said:
> 
> 
> > I asked the same question about the package instructions when i got my first bag of TQ, i think those instructions are for quick tenderizing of meat before grilling/baking, not curing. If you follow bears instructions with the TQ, im positive that you will end up with a nice slab of bacon come a week and a half from now.
> ...


In the beginning (my Bacon Making beginning), I used to add the CBP, Garlic Powder, and Onion Powder with the cure. It tasted like I never added it. So WJC is right.

First rub the TQ on. That way you can get it distributed all over---No confusion which is which. Then add your Brown Sugar. It doesn't matter if the Brown Sugar is distributed as evenly as the TQ. Do one piece/bag at a time, and put anything that falls off of each piece along in with that piece in that bag. Then like XJC said, after you pull it out of cure, rinse it, test a couple slices in the frying pan, dry it all real good with paper towels. Then put any other seasonings you want to add (like CBP, Garlic powder & Onion powder). Then put it in the fridge over night to dry & form some pellicle. I do that last part on my smoker racks, in my extra fridge (uncovered), but if you don't have an extra fridge, just put it in the smoker at about 130˚ or so WITHOUT smoke before you start putting the smoke on. If you're going to cold smoke, you can also put it in front of a fan to dry it for an hour or two to dry & form pellicle. That pellicle will make it tacky, and will take the smoke without getting greasy.

If you're using my step by step, everything should be explained, but you can always ask me anything (or others). I'm going to make a new step by step sometime, because I like putting some heat on more than that semi-cold smoked one I posted. I like running the smoker from 110˚ to 160˚ gradually better, and pulling it anywhere from 110˚ to 130˚ internal temp.

Just remember--If you cut it in pieces like I do, you have to weigh each piece separately. Then calculate the TQ you're going to need exactly for each piece. Then make sure that piece gets all of the amount designated for it.

1/2 ounce of TQ per pound of meat.

Examples --

A 3lb 8 ounce piece gets 1 3/4 ounce of TQ.

A 2lb 4 ounce piece gets 1 1/8 ounce of TQ.

You could try fresh aromatics any time you want--with the cure or before forming the pellicle. It certainly wouldn't hurt anything. Just do the TQ cure first, and use the exact amount needed. And make sure any TQ that falls off goes in that bag with that piece of meat. I repeat that a lot, because I feel it is very important.

I hope this helps,

Bear

PS: Don't wait until after you do something to ask questions.


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

xjcamaro said:


> Someone else might want to chime in on that one. The only thing i ever added was the equal amount of brown sugar. I dont even put any spice on mine before smoking.
> 
> You might be better off rubbing your aromatics on after the curing process is done and after you dry the meat, but before you stick it in the fridge to sit overnight before smoking. Just my thought.




I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject. Thanks for answering this Bear, I'm going to try some fresh aromatics with the cure this time around since it seems safe. I have to buy my belly pre-cut and frozen. As soon as it is defrosted (its in the fridge, no worries) can I weigh out the TQ apply ithe appropriate amount to each belly and put the bellies in a single covered pyrex dish rather than separate bags to cure or should I keep them in separate dishes/bags?

Another series question has popped up from my research on curing:

I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?


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## Bearcarver (Jan 7, 2011)

avas38 said:


> xjcamaro said:
> 
> 
> > Someone else might want to chime in on that one. The only thing i ever added was the equal amount of brown sugar. I dont even put any spice on mine before smoking.
> ...


I can't help you much with that cure#1 wet cure. That would be Pops & others.

However not seeing what the whole thing you're looking at says, it could be "more cure with more water". I think the percentage in the dilution is the important thing, but I'm just guessing (like 1 ounce of something dissolved in a quart of water would be the same thing as 4 ounces of something dissolved in a gallon)???

And like I said earlier, I personally would not use any of the cure#1 cures as a dry cure.

Also remember this is my "Opinion".

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jan 7, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject. Thanks for answering this Bear, I'm going to try some fresh aromatics with the cure this time around since it seems safe. I have to buy my belly pre-cut and frozen. *As soon as it is defrosted (its in the fridge, no worries) can I weigh out the TQ apply ithe appropriate amount to each belly and put the bellies in a single covered pyrex dish rather than separate bags to cure or should I keep them in separate dishes/bags?*
> 
> Another series question has popped up from my research on curing:
> 
> ...


*I like to do mine in smaller more manageable pieces for more accuracy.*

*With a big piece, I don't feel I can get it distributed evenly. One end might get twice as much cure as the other end.*

*If you want to do a whole slab, it would be better to go the wet cure route.*

*All I can tell you is when dry curing, 1/2 ounce of TQ (exactly) on every pound of meat is safe.*

Again---My opinions!!

Bear


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

Bearcarver said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > xjcamaro said:
> ...


Yeah, it makes sense that more liquid requires more cure, but the ratios/percentages are wildly different in both the brine recipe (comparing Pops and the honey one in Rytek's book) and the dry cure recipes in Charcuterie which allow for wide variation in pink salt application (whereas the recent blog post just says toss everything in a bag and coat in the bag).

I understand why you say you wouldn't and it makes sense. I'm just trying to understand the process and safety limits so I can tell when a recipe is safe or isn't for my future adventures into curing/smoking sausages and making ham etc.

Quote:


Bearcarver said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject. Thanks for answering this Bear, I'm going to try some fresh aromatics with the cure this time around since it seems safe. I have to buy my belly pre-cut and frozen. *As soon as it is defrosted (its in the fridge, no worries) can I weigh out the TQ apply ithe appropriate amount to each belly and put the bellies in a single covered pyrex dish rather than separate bags to cure or should I keep them in separate dishes/bags?*
> ...


The pieces come pre-cut between 1.5-2.5lbs so they are very manageable.

I plan on using your recipe this time. I'm just trying to figure out why there seems to be so much deviation between non-TQ recipes that seem successful and possible safe.

Thanks for your patience and help.


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## fpnmf (Jan 7, 2011)

This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

Here's my opinion.

You can poke around the net for months looking at ways to make bacon and find hundreds of differing recipes.

Some very famous folks have posted recipes that I just don't agree to,but many use them with success. ( for instance Alton Brown)

There has been much posting here with lots of differing opinions.

I had to decide who to trust.

Bears recipe has been very good for me,I learned how to do it and it tastes great. He gave me much help and encouragement when I asked him about things.

I trust him.

The next belly I get I am going to do Pops recipe. Seems very easy.

I have known Pops since 4th grade. We grew up pals. His family owned a store and his dad was very highly regarded as a butcher and meat smoker.

He has been doing this stuff since childhood. I trust him completely.

My advice would be find someone that you can trust and follow thier instructions to the letter.

Have fun, this is a great place!

  Craig


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## xjcamaro (Jan 7, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> This has been a very interesting and informative thread.
> 
> Here's my opinion.
> 
> ...


Amen 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I think you might be trying to think about and do too may routes here. Bear helped me out tremendously as well, and i got 2 perfect bacon smokes under my belt. Many people have used Bear's method as a stepping stone to get their feet wet. I think you may need to do the same. Forget about all that extra stuff, do a simple effective cure/smoke to restart on the right foot and get those bad batches behind you.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank you Craig & XJC,

It is the appreciation shown by guys like you and many others that make my efforts very worthwhile to me.

It's a pleasure to work with you.

Bear


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

I fully intend on using Bear's method with the belly I have right now. The only difference will be my inclusion of aromatics. I am only further researching to gain a greater understanding of the craft for my future endeavors.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 7, 2011)

What are the aromatics you using?


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## DanMcG (Jan 7, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.
> 
> I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?


My last word about it. You can't learn the science of curing meat by reading recipes for it. You need to research and study why you're doing what you do. None of the links you posted will kill ya but how do ya know until ya learn why. Pops is on the low end of ppm of nitrite and others are over the top but until you know the difference what does it matter. If ya want to know what the USDA will allow read this. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

Sorry but it seems everyone wants to know how to do it but never seems to research the science of curing. And this is not directed at you avas. If I can answer any questions for ya feel free to PM me


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## avas38 (Jan 7, 2011)

xjcamaro said:


> What are the aromatics you using?


I'll toast and coarsely crack some black pepper, crush up a couple bay leaves and cloves of garlic and maybe include some fresh thyme and crushed juniper berries if I feel like it.


DanMcG said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.
> ...


I understand the frustration - I'm not really looking for an easy way out. I have been started reading up on the science, but I have seen conflicting views/opinions within the few things I have read. Any literature suggestions? I have heard good things about Ryteks book and it is at the top of my list, but beyond that is there anything I should read?

Also, thank you for that link. I spent a while searching the USDA site for that earlier, but couldn't find the guidelines. I must have been in the wrong place.


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## DanMcG (Jan 8, 2011)

For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;

  http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739






  

It will answer all the questions a newbie can come up with and then some.


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## DanMcG (Jan 8, 2011)

As far as your question on the safety of the recipes you read, this is my take on it.

The USDA dictates the maximum amount of nitrite a commercial producer can use, you can use whatever you want for personal consumption   but why use   

but why use more then they consider necessary. 200 ppm is the max for a dry rubbed bacon. On the other end there is no limit to the minimum ingoing nitrite but 40-50  ppm is needed for any meaningful curing. The lower the amount of cure the longer you'll need to cure it. To short a cure time and you'll have uneven color and sections that are uncured and grey in color, to long of a cure time is not a problem

So you see you can have different amounts in different recipes and still be safe.


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## fpnmf (Jan 8, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739
> 
> ...


I have one of his other books. Smoking meat and smokehouse design.

It also has a ton of the tech info.


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## skygreenbud (Jan 8, 2011)

did you ever try using a brine instead of a dry rub? i made bacon last year and used a brine abd it turned out really well.even then you have to monitor the soaking times.leave itin too long and it will turn too salty.i live in nepa.


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## avas38 (Jan 8, 2011)

I just set the bellys up. One was 1.745 lbs (it got .875oz of TQ) and the other was 2.01 (getting 1.05oz of TQ). I rubbed the TQ on each belly trying to spread it as evenly as possible on all sides, then rubbed about a tablespoon of brown sugar over each belly. I skipped other seasonings this time, just to see how it would turn out without extra variables. I can always try them in the future. I put them both in a large pyrex dish, covered, and back in the fridge. I plan on massaging and flipping the pieces every day or every other day and hope to pull them out a week from today in the evening (15th), so they can form a pellicle for smoking on next Sunday (16th). My understanding for curing with TQ is you take total thickness divide by two and cure one day for every quarter inch. These pieces are about 2-2.5" thick, so I should be fine with this schedule, correct?
 


DanMcG said:


> For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739
> 
> ...


That book was at the top of my list, now I really need to get it. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 8, 2011)

Its your preference but it might be easier to put the peices of meat in ziploc bags instead of the pyrex dish. Less opening and touching and exposure during the curing process. In the bags you can flip and rub and let the meat sit in the juices with out opening and exposing to the air. Just a thought. Makes it easier.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 8, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I just set the bellys up. One was 1.745 lbs (it got .875oz of TQ) and the other was 2.01 (getting 1.05oz of TQ). I rubbed the TQ on each belly trying to spread it as evenly as possible on all sides, then rubbed about a tablespoon of brown sugar over each belly. I skipped other seasonings this time, just to see how it would turn out without extra variables. I can always try them in the future. I put them both in a large pyrex dish, covered, and back in the fridge. I plan on massaging and flipping the pieces every day or every other day and hope to pull them out a week from today in the evening (15th), so they can form a pellicle for smoking on next Sunday (16th). My understanding for curing with TQ is you take total thickness divide by two and cure one day for every quarter inch. *These pieces are about 2-2.5" thick, so I should be fine with this schedule, correct?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2" thickest point----minimum---6 days

2 1/2" thickest point----minimum ---7 days

Those are including the extra two days I & others add for safety.

And I agree with XJC---Bags make it easier & you can squeeze most of the air out, keeping the juice that forms against the meat better.

Bear


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## avas38 (Jan 8, 2011)

Sounds like my time line is perfect. Also, next time I will try bags. Thanks!


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## paredneck42 (Jan 31, 2011)

Here is my basic bacon recipe it is a wet brine so i put the bellies in a big cooler and keep in the garage for 6 days with temps under 38 degrees and i flip them daily.

 10lb recipe

1 and a half gallons water

1 cup brown or cane sugar

6oz Molasses

1/2 cup Kosher Salt

Mortans InstaCure ( 1 Tablespoon per pound of meat)

I mix all these in a big cooler and set the bellies in sometimes weighing them down so they stay fully submerged in brine. Flip daily and take out 6-7 days let hang in cool environment for about 3 hours and pat dry if necessary. I smoke in a homemade smoker i made for 6 hours keeping air temp around 130 and internal meat under that if it goes over 130 u will be cooking meat. I use hickory,Sassafras and switch to cherry wood for last 2 hours. the cherry gives it a wonderful color and aroma!! Good luck and any questions just ask. I will be doing more bellies within 2 weeks i will have some pics up then.


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## skygreenbud (Feb 1, 2011)

i made bacon about a year ago.used a wet brine,smoked it for about 3 hours and brought the temp up to 154 deg.i wanted to have it fully cooked .sliced some up ,put them in the fry pan ,they were great tasting.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

I have tried to make bacon twice thus far with mixed results. Both times I used the recipe from Charcuterie by Ruhlman and Polcyn with the dextrose cure (450g salt/425g dextros/75g pink salt) and some other flavorings (brown sugar, bay, garlic etc.). The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days. I rinsed then had my dad smoke them because I didn't have a smoker. The bacon ended up overwhelmingly salty and had an off taste, I think I could taste the pink salt in the mixture. Pretty much inedible.

The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings. I stored the bacon in the fridge in a pyrex dish with a lid, flipping every couple of days and rubbing in the liquids that came out/cure to make sure it was evenly coated. This time I roasted he bacon in a 200 degree oven because I didn't have access to a smoker. This time the bacon turned out pretty well, good flavor, but it wasn't salty enough and I think the fat developed a slight off flavor/rancidity. I assume I didn't use quite enough cure this time.

I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?


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## chefrob (Jan 6, 2011)

haven't used cure #1 yet so i won't speak of what might have gone wrong. the only thing i could stress is the correct weight of meat and cure............some one will be along soon to help. i for one will be watching this since i just picked up some cure #1 and want to try something different oher than high mountain.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

The cure to meat ratio is part of what confuses me. In Charcuterie they mention using 50g of cure (about 1/4c) for 3-5lbs of belly which is a huge window. Is there a more specific guideline? It is very possible I missed it.

edit: Also, I assume that cure #1 and pink salt are the same thing? That will help my searching.


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

this may help you

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> I have tried to make bacon twice thus far with mixed results. Both times I used the recipe from Charcuterie by Ruhlman and Polcyn with the dextrose cure (450g salt/13oz dextros/3oz pink salt) and some other flavorings (brown sugar, bay, garlic etc.). The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days. I rinsed then had my dad smoke them because I didn't have a smoker. The bacon ended up overwhelmingly salty and had an off taste, I think I could taste the pink salt in the mixture. Pretty much inedible.
> 
> The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings. I stored the bacon in the fridge in a pyrex dish with a lid, flipping every couple of days and rubbing in the liquids that came out/cure to make sure it was evenly coated. This time I roasted he bacon in a 200 degree oven because I didn't have access to a smoker. This time the bacon turned out pretty well, good flavor, but it wasn't salty enough and I think the fat developed a slight off flavor/rancidity. I assume I didn't use quite enough cure this time.
> 
> I am getting ready to make my third batch in about 1.5 weeks and will be using my 18.5" WSM for the first time, along with smoking a Boston Butt. I want to make sure I do it right. Is there anything I can do to ensure that this batch turns out with the perfect cure/meat ratio?


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## fpnmf (Jan 6, 2011)

It looks like you are using too much pink salt.

I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.

It also looks like you just rinsed it and didn't soak it or test fry it.

Roasting it to 200 is too hot,it starts rendering the fat.

Read Bears recipe and try it as written.

Good luck.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview  

This also is good reading.

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

mudduck said:


> this may help you
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/96761/smoked-bacon-step-by-step-with-qview


do you guys have TQ or can you get it


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.

Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.

I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)

http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


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## mudduck (Jan 6, 2011)

xjcamaro said:


> If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)
> 
> http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


you mite fine it at your county co-op


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recipes, I will read them over when I get a chance. Also, I had a 200 degree oven, I roasted to 150.

How do you know I am using to much pink salt? The first try I think I did, the second, I thought I used too little because of the slightly off flavor in the bacon fat? Is there a ratio I should follow?




xjcamaro said:


> If you cant find it locally (like me) you can order it on their website (like i did)
> 
> http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/meatcuring/tenderquick.html


What is the difference between tender quick and pink salt?


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


From the website you linked 3lbs of meat calls for about 0.1oz of pink salt, given a homogeneous mixture of the cure I use, I end up with about the same amount, maybe 0.02-0.04g too much. Is this small amount really significant? Although as a percentage it is, I guess.

I thought the soak was if the bacon turns out too salty. Certainly the first time I tried this was an issue, but it wasn't the second considering I thought it could have used a little more salt. Should I still try to soak it?

Lastly, I roasted in a 200 degree oven until the meat was 150 degrees.

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. I know following a recipe might be easier, but I really want to understand the process too!




xjcamaro said:


> I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.
> 
> Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.
> 
> I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


From my understanding of what TQ is when I mix salt, dextrose and pink salt am I not just making a homemade version TQ?


fpnmf said:


> It looks like you are using too much pink salt.
> 
> I use pink salt for sausage and Bears (using TQ)  recipe for bacon.
> 
> ...


From the website you linked 3lbs of meat calls for about 0.1oz of pink salt, given a homogeneous mixture of the cure I use, I end up with about the same amount, maybe 0.02-0.04g too much. Is this small amount really significant? Although as a percentage it is, I guess.

I thought the soak was if the bacon turns out too salty. Certainly the first time I tried this was an issue, but it wasn't the second considering I thought it could have used a little more salt. Should I still try to soak it?

Lastly, I roasted in a 200 degree oven until the meat was 150 degrees.

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. I know following a recipe might be easier, but I really want to understand the process too!




xjcamaro said:


> I am also a newbie at bacon, i have done 2 batches thus far and both have turned out excellent. I use Morton's Tender Quick for my cure, it is very simple to use. Also, im sure this is true with all cures, the amount of cure you use on a peice a meat must be carefully calculated per the weight of the meat. Ive heard that too much or too little can be a health hazzard.  Maybe you might want to start off trying some Tender Quick for a couple batches until you get the hang of it? Also with the cure that i use, i soak my peices of meat in ice water for a 1/2 hour to pull the excess saltiness out of the meat before i let it sit overnight prior to smoking. If you havent done that, it might be a step you might want to add to your method. As far as baking it instead of smoking it ,and from what i understand, after the meat has been cured, its ready to go (to the frying pan), the smoking portion is just for flavor.
> 
> Just some things to think about, im just a noob helping a noob. Im sure the pros will be by shortly to guide you a little better.
> 
> I just know that TQ is simple to use and so far for me has been fool proof. I probably wont ever try any of the other cures just because of that. Im one of the people that wont try to fix what isnt broke.


From my understanding of what TQ is when I mix salt, dextrose and pink salt am I not just making a homemade version TQ?


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## mballi3011 (Jan 6, 2011)

Personally I don't care how much cure the book says I go by what is recommended on the cure package itself. Cures are nothing to mess with for theycan hurt you I have heard and that works for me. I have used pink salt and tenderquick before and they are really different in the amounts that you should use. Now there is one good thing that Bear had in his how-to thread is the fry test. You should fry a piece before you smoke it and that way you can see if it's too salty or not salty enough. Then you can smoke it to your likings.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

Sorry about the confusing double posts above. For some reason it was moderated and my changes do not appear properly. On top of that I cannot edit it. The second post (which is repeated twice in the same post) are my current questions.


mballi3011 said:


> Personally I don't care how much cure the book says I go by what is recommended on the cure package itself. Cures are nothing to mess with for theycan hurt you I have heard and that works for me. I have used pink salt and tenderquick before and they are really different in the amounts that you should use. Now there is one good thing that Bear had in his how-to thread is the fry test. You should fry a piece before you smoke it and that way you can see if it's too salty or not salty enough. Then you can smoke it to your likings.


The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.


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## chefrob (Jan 6, 2011)

avas38 said:


> The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days.
> 
> The second time I was far more careful and, instead of dredging, used about 1/4 cup of cure for 3lbs of bacon coating each piece well along with other flavorings.


a couple of things kept nagging at me about these two lines and i just couldn't let them go, i'm just trying to understand the process.........

no matter how much your "cure mix" ingredients were on as far as amounts by weight, how could you ensure the right amount of cure #1 was actually on the meat if by "dredging" the bellys? the other thing is when you measured a 1/4 C. of "mix" how did you come up with that amount based on 3 lbs of belly and how do you know how much cure #1 was in that 1/4 cup if a big batch of "mix" was made and you just scooped out a 1/4 cup?

also on another note fat starts to render around 128 deg so i normaly don't go over 125 when smoking my  bacon that i will fully cook at a later time.


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## papagreer (Jan 6, 2011)

Also, from reading Bears post multiple times over the last couple weeks, when you measure out the TQ and sprinkle it on the meat, any of the TQ that doesnt stick needs to go in the bag as well to keep the ratio correct. Dont know if that helps but I assume that goes for any cure that you are using. Just make sure the full amount ends up in the bag.

And 200 degrees is def on the hot side. Like chefrob said, 125 or under is optimal. I would keep it 100 or under and just extend the smoking time if its way below that. AS far as Im concerned, Bears tutorial is awesome. Thats what I will be following when I take a stab at bacon.

Chris


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## desertlites (Jan 6, 2011)

The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.---------     you need to read up on your different types of cures and there ratios of use-not all cures are used the same-for the new bacon maker I suggest mix's like buckboard ETC-yes it works great on slab also-and as mentioned soak your meat after the cure process several times as needed and by all means do your fry tests --always test fry what your going to smoke (bacon-sausage etc ) also don't COOK your bacon at 200* smoke it in steps starting around 90* and work up to 110-120. I havn't been around this site since the change but if you did some searching you will find Alot of good info from the pros like Pineywoods and others-just keep it safe and practice practice practice. good luck


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## ak1 (Jan 6, 2011)

If your "pink salt" came without any instructions, I would be wary of using it, unless you know for sure what it is.


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## avas38 (Jan 6, 2011)

chefrob said:


> avas38 said:
> 
> 
> > The first time I dredged the bellies in the cure and tossed them in a bag in the fridge for about 7-9 days making sure to rub every couple of days.
> ...


I was following the directions in the book "Charcuterie." They say either the dredge method or using 1/4C (or 50 grams, I used weight) of their cure will work. As far as knowing the right amount of cure is present in a given amount, he same question could be asked of any other spice rub or Mortons TQ. You can assume a homogeneous mixture if it is properly if the particles are similarly sized (which they are) so an amount removed will maintain the initial ratios.

I appreciate the note about the fat. If I do smoke the bacon at a higher temperature will that affect the end result, aside from rendering some fat and possibly cooking it slightly?




desertlites said:


> The pink salt I got came with no instructions, besides I want to understand the guidelines and safety rules so I can experiment safely.---------     you need to read up on your different types of cures and there ratios of use-not all cures are used the same-for the new bacon maker I suggest mix's like buckboard ETC-yes it works great on slab also-and as mentioned soak your meat after the cure process several times as needed and by all means do your fry tests --always test fry what your going to smoke (bacon-sausage etc ) also don't COOK your bacon at 200* smoke it in steps starting around 90* and work up to 110-120. I havn't been around this site since the change but if you did some searching you will find Alot of good info from the pros like Pineywoods and others-just keep it safe and practice practice practice. good luck


That is exactly what I have been doing. I have been searching, but sometimes I find it a little hard to find what I need. For example, I still don't know why the second batch wasn't salty enough and should I really soak even if it isn't salty enough?

I really think the fry test is a great idea and will certainly try it next time!


AK1 said:


> If your "pink salt" came without any instructions, I would be wary of using it, unless you know for sure what it is.


I bought if from a reputable butcher supply company. It came labeled, just not with specific usage instructions.


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## xjcamaro (Jan 6, 2011)

Im not trying to be mean, but i think you need to find a basic recipe and try it on a small peice of the belly. Save the rest of the belly so you dont ruin the whole thing. It seems like you are trying to make changes to the recipes or methods that didnt work.

What i would do, and this is just me, is find a basic recipe using the ingredients you have. And follow it to a T. Dont change anything, and try a small slab. Before you go making your own changes to a recipe i would find a basic one that works. And experiment with small peices as not to throw out a whole belly.

You need a good base to start on, find something simple that works. Then move on and make small changes. Once you get a good recipe that gives you good quality plain bacon. Then start making your little changes with the spices as you should probably not make changes to the cure (hazzardous).

Just a thought, and just trying to help you keep from having to throw out a bad belly.


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