# ELECTRICAL QUESTION



## Slow42 (Oct 18, 2019)

I found some dryer heaters for cheap but they are 240 volts and about 5000 watts. I only have 120 volts, 15 amps, available. Can I install this and run at 120 volts? Would it be half the 5000 watts or 2500 watts at 120 volts. Want to use element to build a small smoker. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks


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## mosparky (Oct 18, 2019)

Without running you thru a bunch of ohms law equations, the short answer is it will be about 1250 watts and pull about 10.5 amps at 120 volts. (if I did the math right, been a long time since school)


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## tx smoker (Oct 18, 2019)

No, you CANNOT run this on a 120 volt circuit. It is designed to run  On 220 and you'll constantly have the breaker trip to the point that it will not reset. The element is going to pull whatever power it's designed to run on, which is 220 volts and 30 amps. My suggestion is to look for a heating element for something like an MES smoker that is designed to run on 120 (it's actually 110) and implement that into whatever you're trying to do. Additionally if you try running a device that requires 2x the power that you have available, you are at a high risk of causing an electrical fire. To run a 220 volt heating element you need a minimum of 30 amps as well as the designated voltage.  In the infamous words of Robin Williams: Not a good idea baby!!

Don't do it!!
Robert


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## eddiememphis (Oct 18, 2019)

It depends on how the heater is wired internally. There are likely two elements in it and at different wattages so that you can have different heat levels- Low, Medium and High.

Regardless, running a 240 volt circuit on half the voltage will use a lot of power and likely still not get up to its running temp. The maximum on a 15 amp breaker for a long time (longer than an hour or so) is about 1500 watts. This may still be too much for your wiring, outlets and breakers.

There are easier and much safer ways to build a smoker.


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## Slow42 (Oct 18, 2019)

Thanks all, I understand the limitations of 120 volts and 15 amps of power to an outlet, at best 1500 watts under ideal circumstances. But the element is only going to operate at the amount of energy its feed. I’m thinking. So will to work?  Don’t know. I will be using a PID controller in whatever method I chose. My first choice is still the hot plate, 1200 watts.


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## atomicsmoke (Oct 18, 2019)

Assuming they are pure resistive elements (power factor 1) they would have an impedance of 11.52ohm. Which means they will draw 10.41A at 120V so you are good on a 15A circuit. Power will be 1250W.

Show my work like high school: impedance is =V2/P=240*240/5000=11.52ohm. Current with a 120V supply is V/Z=120/11.52=10.41A. Power at 120V supply is V*I=120*10.41=1250W.


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## atomicsmoke (Oct 18, 2019)

tx smoker said:


> No, you CANNOT run this on a 120 volt circuit. It is designed to run  On 220 and you'll constantly have the breaker trip to the point that it will not reset. The element is going to pull whatever power it's designed to run on, which is 220 volts and 30 amps. My suggestion is to look for a heating element for something like an MES smoker that is designed to run on 120 (it's actually 110) and implement that into whatever you're trying to do. Additionally if you try running a device that requires 2x the power that you have available, you are at a high risk of causing an electrical fire. To run a 220 volt heating element you need a minimum of 30 amps as well as the designated voltage.  In the infamous words of Robin Williams: Not a good idea baby!!
> 
> Don't do it!!
> Robert


Thats not how electricity works.


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## daveomak (Oct 19, 2019)

Get an element from a toaster oven or dish washer...  Something that runs on 120V...  a counter top single burner works too...


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## Steve H (Oct 19, 2019)

I haven't seen a dual wattage element on a dryer in a long time. But if it has more then 2 wires going to it. Then some resistance readings will be needed to determine how you'll hook it up. If it just has two connections. Then you should see around 1200 watts.


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## Slow42 (Oct 19, 2019)

This was the dryer type element I was referring to. Its a 240 volt 5400 watt. It has the two tabs for attaching power wires like the other smoker elements I’ve seen. These are only about $15.00 and quite small. This would be simple to install. So will something like this work?


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## atomicsmoke (Oct 19, 2019)

Slow42 said:


> This was the dryer type element I was referring to. Its a 240 volt 5400 watt. It has the two tabs for attaching power wires like the other smoker elements I’ve seen. These are only about $15.00 and quite small. This would be simple to install. So will something like this work?
> 
> 
> View attachment 408766


I dont see why not. Pay close attention to mating connectors to ensure proper connection and the mount/insulation to prevent shock hazards. I am assuming this is for an outdoor rig. Don't forget sbout moisture, rain and snow.


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## daveomak (Oct 19, 2019)

Those elements are installed in the duct from the fan...  They require tons of air flow, to keep them cool, so they won't burn up...  A Calrod heating element has a coating to keep it from burning up in air...  If you may have noticed, elements in your oven and small smokers all use Calrod heating elements...


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## Slow42 (Oct 19, 2019)

Thanks daveomak never considered the air flow thing and I didn’t know what oven etc. heating elements are made from. Regardless what element I use I need some high temperature wire to lead from element out of the smoker to a cord. Any idea what type wire/gauge that would be? I found a lot of 200c wire but that’s not high enough temperature. I would think the minimum would to around 1000c.


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## daveomak (Oct 19, 2019)

As long as the wire is rated for the amp draw, no problem....  The wire doesn't get hot from the element...   The heat start an inch or 2 from the connection as it starts passing through the element...   The farther from the connection, the hotter the element gets until there's a balance of amps and resistance...   If you look at a heating element on your stove, it's never hot where it connects....


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## Steve H (Oct 20, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Those elements are installed in the duct from the fan...  They require tons of air flow, to keep them cool, so they won't burn up...  A Calrod heating element has a coating to keep it from burning up in air...  If you may have noticed, elements in your oven and small smokers all use Calrod heating elements...



I didn't think about that. You are correct.


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## Slow42 (Oct 20, 2019)

Daveomak I was more concerned about the wires in the smoking chamber itself. Most smokers have the element installed in the wall so the wires are on the outside. I was just going to place the element in the chamber not through the wall. When people use a hot plate, still an option, wires must be exposed to the inner temperatures of the smoke correct? Don’t want burning wire smoke in my meats


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2019)

I installed the element on the inside...  See pictures in the article below...

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a...ent-for-colder-climates-and-hot-smoking.9579/


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## nchapelheel (Oct 20, 2019)

here is another way....search the web for some Nichrome wire. This is the same
stuff used in old toasters. Get a small auto-transformer so that the voltage can
be adjusted to control the actual heat from the wire. It is essential that the wire
and connections to it be isolated from anything around the wires.
Recap: destroy an old toaster or buy some 20 gauge nichrome wire.
I used to make wire cutters for styrofoam this way. Worked well.


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## Steve H (Oct 20, 2019)

Slow42 said:


> Daveomak I was more concerned about the wires in the smoking chamber itself. Most smokers have the element installed in the wall so the wires are on the outside. I was just going to place the element in the chamber not through the wall. When people use a hot plate, still an option, wires must be exposed to the inner temperatures of the smoke correct? Don’t want burning wire smoke in my meats



 Any wires inside the chamber should be high temp. wire. 

 daveomak
  brought up a larger, and correct issue. Those elements won't last long at all unless there is airflow going through them.


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## Slow42 (Oct 20, 2019)

Thanks for all the information everyone. The plan now is to use a calrod type element from whatever I can find cheap, thanks Daveomak. My next issue is the wiring. Can I wire the element directly to a on/off switch, fuse, ssr, PID controller setup? From what I have read the PID will control the temperature in the smoker. I gather the element must be running at high all the time and will shut off when it reaches the temperature set on the PID? Is there anything wrong with this scenario?


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2019)

I would use a Silicone controlled Rectifier for a control.. 
click on this link   SCR
It's always on...  like a burner on a stove...


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## Slow42 (Oct 20, 2019)

Daveomak using the rectifier would control temperature but wouldn’t let me preset temperature settings at different hourly intervals. It would be just like a standard oven temperature controller correct? These are the parts I gathered from an old toaster oven. It says 1200 watts and has three elements. Is that with all the elements on? I was only going to use the rectangular one not the straight ones. They don’t look very robust.


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2019)

That's a perfect element....  Good find....

My toaster oven only allows for either the upper or lower element to be on at one time...   Soooooooo, I'm gonna say, use the rectangular element...   Save the others..  you may have a separate circuit available for additional heat....
About the SCR... I have been using one for years... Well, 3 maybe, and it's awesome....   I played with it for a day...  turned it to a setting and let it run... noted the setting and the temp....  repeated that scenario....  It's ball park accurate...  When I put meat in the smoker, I adjust it high to accommodate the cold meat...  come back in an hour or 2 and adjust......  It's no different than adjusting the temp on a gas burner stove or your propane BBQ....  EXCEPT, it reacts much slower...  The nice thing is...  If you have a temp controller, like the MES30, which I have, you can adjust the temp below the set temps for cold smoking...  I run my MES at 70ish all the time for bacon and the like....  A temp difference of +/- 20 deg. F is nothing to worry about...  Save yourself $100+ dollars and have a reason to check your smoker every hour or 2....
I also use one continually on my electric skillet so the heat when it calls for it isn't screaming hot..  I can regulate the heat to something reasonable for making chili... etc....  also use it on my immersion blender when mixing stuff up...  adjust the speed down so it doesn't blow stuff all over the kitchen...   I have an appliance extension cord set up with the SCR added in the cord...  I use it on any plug in appliance...


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## Slow42 (Oct 20, 2019)

Thanks Daveomak I’ll figure out how to wire it when I get the other parts. Thanks again!


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## daveomak (Oct 20, 2019)

Easy to wire....


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## Slow42 (Oct 28, 2019)

I have a problem with the wiring of the element?  When plugged in the GFI keeps tripping. If I remove the ground wire, from the element, everything works as it should. I tried a different element and the result was the same. 

I removed the ground wire from the element and screwed it into the metal smoker box. This did not trip the GFI and the element worked. 

Is this going to be safe?


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## daveomak (Oct 28, 2019)

Yes....   The element should NOT have a ground wire connected to it...   
Wires...  black and white should should connect to the AC input and voltage output lugs have wires that go to each end of the element...
The ground wire connects to the smoker body, in the event there is a fault in the wiring..


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## Slow42 (Oct 28, 2019)

Thanks again Daveomak. It seems that all the elements have a third wire coming from the element mounting bracket the goes somewhere. Any idea what the purpose of the wire might be. I though it was the ground wire.


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## daveomak (Oct 28, 2019)

Got a picture??


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## daveomak (Oct 28, 2019)

In a 110V system, the wires that supply current to an element are...
The 110v supply wire... usually black...
The Neutral wire...  usually white.... 
The ground wire, usually green, is connected to the chassis of the appliance as a safety device...  In the event something fails in the wiring, and electricity goes to the chassis, the electricity goes to ground... electricity "usually" follows the path of least resistance..  Your body is not a good conductor so the electricity takes the route of the ground wire and you should be safe...


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## Slow42 (Oct 28, 2019)

This is one of the elements and the other is just the same setup. The top two holes are mounting holes. The middle hole between the element tubes had a wire attached to it, via small bolt, which I removed. The one I took off from the toaster oven I cut the wire but didn’t think to see where It went.


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## daveomak (Nov 6, 2019)

The one hole between the element lugs would be for a ground connection...   If the GFCI trips when that is hooked up, could very well indicate your element is leaking electricity to that mounting bracket...   
If you have a multi meter, check for continuity between that bracket and the element lugs....   No continuity, and the GFCI trips, probably a leakage that might be solved by cleaning the element near the bracket....  use a wire brush and clean the element to remove any carbon buildup....   Wire brush the bracket also, near the element....  
If the element heats up correctly, and the breaker doesn't trip, you are golden....


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## Slow42 (Nov 6, 2019)

Daveomak thanks but that advice contradicts what you stated above in the above post. You state the ground wire should NOT be connected to the element.  Another person said the same thing.  I just may be misunderstanding what you and others have told me about the ground wires. All I know is the power cord has a ground wire and apparently the element mounting bracket has a place for a ground wire. I had both my elements professionally tested and there is no leakage from either element.


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## daveomak (Nov 6, 2019)

_You state the ground wire should NOT be connected to the element_. 
That's correct....   The bracket is not part of the element...   It holds it in place and should not have any connection/continuity to the element...
No leakage from either element...  connect it to the SCR as the picture describes....  You will be good to go....


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## Slow42 (Nov 6, 2019)

Ok now that’s all straighten out, bracket. I’m right back to where all this started. When a ground wire is connected to the bracket the GFI pops. This happens with two different elements that apparently are good, professionally tested. It doesn’t matter if it’s a SCR, PID or XYZ the GFI pops. The problem has to be how the ground wires are attached. Just a guess.


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## daveomak (Nov 7, 2019)

The ground wire on the cord shoud be attached to the chassis of the smoker in the event there is an electrical fault somewhere in the smoker..   Then the stray electricity will go to the grounding buss in the electrical panel....


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## Slow42 (Nov 7, 2019)

Daveomak that’s the way I have it set up now and it works fine. It was the other posts about grounding safety that concerned me.  If electric current is leaking it has to be going somewhere. At least somewhere it could be tested. I had the elements tested and they are good. I’ll hook up the smoker and see if I can test if the ground wire has electricity going through it.


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## daveomak (Nov 7, 2019)

The ground wire and the neutral wire are connected to the same buss in the electrical panel..
If all is working now, you will be good to go....


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## Slow42 (Nov 7, 2019)

Ok now you have me thinking.  I wired the power cord to the element, white wire to one side and black to the other. Ground to box.  Is that correct for the element?


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## daveomak (Nov 7, 2019)

YEP...  white wire to one side and black to the other ..    Same thing on all 110V circuits...   Ground to the cabinet somewhere so any stray electricity has somewhere to go, other than you, when there is a failure in the electrical system....


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## JC in GB (Nov 7, 2019)

Also, those elements are not insulated and would not be safe.  Get a replacement stove burner.  That should get you the heat you need and still be safe.


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## daveomak (Nov 7, 2019)

Those elements are insulated...  They are Calrod elements...   He had them checked...


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## JC in GB (Nov 7, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Those elements are insulated...  They are Calrod elements...   He had them checked...



I am speaking of the ones in the photo of the dryer heater.  That looks like bare NiCr wire to me...

I agree with you that the cal-rod material is the one to go with.

Also, an SSR would work well for power control.


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## daveomak (Nov 7, 2019)

Yep.....  That's what he is doing.....


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## Slow42 (Nov 9, 2019)

After taking everyone’s advice into consideration this is what I came up with for wiring and grounding the heating element.  My only concern is the heating element power wires being exposed to the inner cooking chamber.  All elements, from what I have seen, have there wires and where they are attach not in the cooing chamber.  Is what I have shown ok. I do plan on placing a tray about the heating element but that won’t stop moist from have access to the element ends.


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## daveomak (Nov 9, 2019)

Would the lugs on the element, not fit through the holes ??


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## Slow42 (Nov 9, 2019)

No to far apart and I read somewhere you can‘t bend the elements.


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## daveomak (Nov 9, 2019)

Can you cut the bracket and get the lugs through the holes...  Your wire won't last out in the heat... And you are correct, once the element has been heated up, trying to bend it will result in a break....


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## Slow42 (Nov 9, 2019)

The wires are good to a little less than 1000 degrees Fahrenheit so I don’t think that will be an issue. Just worried about exposure to moisture and fluids which might cause the GFI to trip.


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## daveomak (Nov 10, 2019)

Sounds as if you have covered all your bases.....


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