# Brisket danger?



## smoker-rco

I've stalled at 126 IT and it's been 4+ hours ---am I still ok?


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## geerock

What are you cooking on and at what temp?  How big a brisket?


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## smoker-rco

smoking in a Smoke Hollow 30162E at 210-245 temp -- 7.5 pound


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## geerock

That means you've been under 140 IT for well over 5 hours.  Are you sure you're cooking temp is right?  If you are depending on the smoke hollow gauge you may be making a mistake.  I'm guessing you are not cooking at the temp you think you are.  A 7.5 lb flat sitting for that long is odd.
BTW.... cooking brisket at a higher temp will keep this from happening and simply allow you to get to eating quicker.


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## smoker-rco

I bumped the temp up to 250-275 and now she's climbing --- 131 IT now


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## smoker-rco

I have a maverick ET-732 for a therm


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## smoker-rco

136 IT after 6 hours --- not sure I should chance it  :( :( :(


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## smoker-rco

140 IT at 6.5 hr  --- should I count my loses?


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## foamheart

I would guess you'll be fine. Like Old School BBQ says, Patience.

I maybe wrong (it does happen), but the 4hour/140 degree rule is for bone in or injected meat.

15% preparation, 5% luck, and 80% patience.


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## smoker-rco

I've had the meat therm. probe in the whole time --- does that count as

"injected"?


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## foamheart

Actually, yes it does.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/121168/40-140-in-4-hours-discussion

The 4/140 " Rule" is not an exact statement as you see in the discussion. If you were at 220+ for 5 hours, I would assume that you might have probed hard fat. It makes a difference.

No one but you can make the call.


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## smoker-rco

I'm not going to chance it.  Lesson learned!!!!  Sad day.


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## demosthenes9

Don't toss it.    If you are worried, carve out where the probe was.


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## Bearcarver

Smoker-RCO said:


> I'm not going to chance it.  Lesson learned!!!!  Sad day.


Like Foamy said, Nobody can tell you what to do.

However you were actually 2 hours too long in the Danger zone after probing it in the beginning.

I'm not sure about what Demo said about cutting out the area where the probe was, but I would think if that would take care of it I would have seen that mentioned in the last 4 1/2 years.

I hate to see anybody lose 7 pounds of any kind of meat, but I also hate to see somebody get seriously sick.

I would also recommend until you get used to your smoker & therm, don't inject it or probe it for the first 3 hours. Then you don't have to worry about the "Intact muscle rule". That's what I do all the time, because I like to play with temps often.

Bear


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## demosthenes9

Bearcarver said:


> Like Foamy said, Nobody can tell you what to do.
> 
> However you were actually 2 hours too long in the Danger zone after probing it in the beginning.
> 
> I'm not sure about what Demo said about cutting out the area where the probe was, but I would think if that would take care of it I would have seen that mentioned in the last 4 1/2 years.
> 
> I hate to see anybody lose 7 pounds of any kind of meat, but I also hate to see somebody get seriously sick.
> 
> I would also recommend until you get used to your smoker & therm, don't inject it or probe it for the first 3 hours. Then you don't have to worry about the "Intact muscle rule". That's what I do all the time, because I like to play with temps often.
> 
> Bear


Bear, let me start out by saying that I could be completely wrong about this.    That said, here's my thought process.

The reason the "safety zone" doesn't apply to intact meats is that the organisms (or their pollutants) don't travel through the meat fibers.  IF they did, then intact meats would have to follow the same rules as ground beef.

The only point of penetration in that brisket was where the probe went in.  IF contamination is a concern, then carving out a chunk of meat surrounding the hole made by the probe would remove any offending organism in my opinion.

If you will, say you have a brisket that is 14 inches long and the probe was stuck straight down within 1 inch of the end of the brisket.  How could that possibly contaminate the entire cut ?   Cut off 2 inches of the brisket where the probe was, and you are left with an intact piece of meat that has not been penetrated.   (Again, in my opinion).


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## dandl93

If this had been my meat I would of cut it into 5 pieces pulled out the pressure cooker added the meat,onions,bell pepper,garlic and a good sauce.When the whistle started blowing give it 15mins then off the heat.I would be sitting down to some great tasting Bar B Que Beef sandwiches.

I also live where by 5am all the meat has been butchered and is hanging on hooks in  open air markets.There is no USDA all meat is picked by site and smell.My self or any one I know has ever been sick from bad meat in the last 10 years.

This is my opinion and my point if it smells good but have doubt for any reason.Cook past medium done.

Dan


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## Bearcarver

Demosthenes9 said:


> Bear, let me start out by saying that I could be completely wrong about this.    That said, here's my thought process.
> 
> The reason the "safety zone" doesn't apply to intact meats is that the organisms (or their pollutants) don't travel through the meat fibers.  IF they did, then intact meats would have to follow the same rules as ground beef.
> 
> The only point of penetration in that brisket was where the probe went in.  IF contamination is a concern, then carving out a chunk of meat surrounding the hole made by the probe would remove any offending organism in my opinion.
> 
> If you will, say you have a brisket that is 14 inches long and the probe was stuck straight down within 1 inch of the end of the brisket.  How could that possibly contaminate the entire cut ?   Cut off 2 inches of the brisket where the probe was, and you are left with an intact piece of meat that has not been penetrated.   (Again, in my opinion).


I understand your thought process, and it makes common sense, but things like this defy common sense. You admit you could be wrong, and I am not enough of a scientific authority to say you are wrong or right, so that means between the two of us, we aren't sure, so to stay safe I would say the meat may not be safe.

This (below) is from a trusted authority (BBally):

*Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. 
Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

"inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."*

Bear


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## demosthenes9

Bearcarver said:


> I understand your thought process, and it makes common sense, but things like this defy common sense. You admit you could be wrong, and I am not enough of a scientific authority to say you are wrong or right, so that means between the two of us, we aren't sure, so to stay safe I would say the meat may not be safe.
> 
> This (below) is from a trusted authority (BBally):
> 
> *Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.
> 
> Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours.
> Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.
> 
> Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?
> 
> "inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."*
> 
> Bear


Thanks Bear,

With that said, I'm kind of confused though as Bbally also said this:


> Most do not know that you can cooked a poultry product to less that 165 F using a method called pastuerization. .*That is holding the product at a certain temp for a specific length of time*
> Temps can be used two ways to make food safe. Temp reached as in the 165 F you see listed often for chicken. Or holding at a lessor temp for a longer period of time.
> 
> For instance we can make safe pork roasts by holding at 140 F for 12 minutes.
> 
> *Same way if you want to have an injected beef roast that can no longer use the intact muscle rule, one can hold the beef muscle for 3 minutes at 145F and be legal to skip the 165F ground meat rule. *


I need to point out that this statement was in response to a question, but, for whatever reason, the questions no longer show up in the thread.

I'll also add the disclaimer again that I'm not a safety expert or anything close to it.  Just a backyard and in the kitchen cook.

I guess I'm kind of confused as to why ground meat only has to go to 165 for a short time to be perfectly safe, but a brisket that has been punctured in 1 place has to be thrown away if not @ 140 degrees in 4 hours, even though  it will be cooked for more than 3 hours at temps well in excess of 165.

I must be missing something because that just doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Bearcarver

Demosthenes9 said:


> Thanks Bear,
> 
> With that said, I'm kind of confused though as Bbally also said this:
> 
> I need to point out that this statement was in response to a question, but, for whatever reason, the questions no longer show up in the thread.
> 
> I'll also add the disclaimer again that I'm not a safety expert or anything close to it.  Just a backyard and in the kitchen cook.
> 
> I guess I'm kind of confused as to why ground meat only has to go to 165 for a short time to be perfectly safe, but a brisket that has been punctured in 1 place has to be thrown away if not @ 140 degrees in 4 hours, even though  it will be cooked for more than 3 hours at temps well in excess of 165.
> 
> *I must be missing something because that just doesn't make any sense to me.*


Some of the technical stuff BBally says kinda gets lost, probably because we have to fight with people who don't even want to agree with the 40 to 140 in 4 hour guide.

And cooking well over 165 for 3 hours may get rid of the bacteria, but not the toxic waste that the bacteria leaves.

But that's mostly too technical. I just except the intact muscle rule (guide) as it stands.

I explained the important parts, and I'm not going to run into the more technical rules that BBally posts. Those posts are at another thread designed specifically for safety purposes.

Bear

BTW:  Smoker-RCO,

The reply I gave you on post #14 stands. Sorry for the Hijack.

Bear


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## smoker-rco

Thanks everybody for the responses.   If I put the probe in at the beginning next time I will be sure to sanitize it.  I hated to loose that piece of heaven but I just wasn't sure and wanted to be safe.


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## Bearcarver

Smoker-RCO said:


> Thanks everybody for the responses. If I put the probe in at the beginning next time I will be sure to sanitize it. I hated to loose that piece of heaven but I just wasn't sure and wanted to be safe.


I better clarify:

If you put the probe in at the beginning, sanitized or not, you should treat it like ground meat, and get it from 40* to 140* in no longer than 4 hours.

If you don't inject it or probe it until it's been in a 200* plus smoker for awhile (I use 3 hours), then there isn't a big hurry to get it to 140* IT.

You should still sterilize the probe before inserting it (I use Alcohol wipes---A box of 250 is cheap).

Bear


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## smoker-rco

Thanks Bear, will do.


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## chef jimmyj

OK Guy's you are all right! Under certain circumstances...

The Black and White...

The probe will push some bacteria in.

Typically, 4 hours in the danger zone and that bacteria grew.

Cooking to 165°  or 140° for 12-15 minutes would have eliminated that bacteria.

Yes some common bacteria produce toxin. Many of those toxins are destroyed or inactivated at 200°F.

Cutting away the meat about a 1/2" around the area the probe was in will remove any nasty stuff.

Sterilizing the probe removes bacteria...ON THE PROBE...It has zero affect on the bacteria at the probe site. So while a good idea, MUST be combined with eliminating the bacteria on the meat. This will happen by waiting an hour or so for the meat surface to heat before adding the probe or heating the entry point with another source like a torch or even touching the area with a very hot piece of metal, think, Branding the meat.

Now the GRAY that must be considered before throwing that expensive meat out...

Was the work surface, probe and hands clean before work began? Goes a long way toward safety.  Note: Clean DRY probes are bacteria free. 

Was the meat washed, carefully, no splashing other surfaces before probing? Was a Salty rub applied and allowed to be in contact 15 minutes or longer? Both of these greatly reduce or eliminate bacteria. 

Does the bacteria suddenly produce huge numbers and high levels of toxin at exactly the 4 Hour mark? No, some can reach high numbers in 1 hour at 90 to 120°F, others can take more than 6-7 hours to reach any serious levels. 

4 hours is NOT a magic" toss the meat number " The FDA uses 4 to 6 hours as a guideline. 

Will the temps we cook brisket to have killed the bacteria making it safe. Yes. The only concern is proper cooling, storage and reheating of leftovers.

Will the amount of toxin that may have been produced have killed you? Not necessarily. Of the many types of toxin only a few are deadly. Others only are a danger to the very old, very young and those with immune system issues. 

Bottom line...

If the typical storage and clean handling techniques were used, the meat was washed and/or at least had S & P or a Rub on it, as I suspect it was and was cooked to typical Brisket temps, EVEN with the 6.5 in the danger zone, and the Probe being the only thing the broke the surface...It was extremely likely that Brisket was perfectly safe and delicious. I would have served it to my family...JJ


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## smoking b

Thanks for jumping in & clearing that up!


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## Bearcarver

Thanks Jimmy,

I did my best, and since I put my name to all my posts, I tend to lean toward the safe side when it comes to variables & unknowns. Your knowledge is most welcome!!

Bear


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## beeflover

Good to know jimmyj thank u I love briskets!


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## floyd

I too was overly concerned about the 4 hour "witching hour" for contamination. I cook some large pork butts and briskets, so I was concerned.  When you think about the probe and decide it is of no real use except to make you feel better seeing the temp rise, don't put it in until later! I wait 2 to 3 hours before probing and then I know I will have no contamination problems. The anticipation and wondering what the temp is adds anxiety which adds to the thrill. Sure it does! 

Really, just wait a few hours and then enjoy the temp rise!


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## Bearcarver

Floyd said:


> I too was overly concerned about the 4 hour "witching hour" for contamination. I cook some large pork butts and briskets, so I was concerned.  When you think about the probe and decide it is of no real use except to make you feel better seeing the temp rise, don't put it in until later! I wait 2 to 3 hours before probing and then I know I will have no contamination problems. The anticipation and wondering what the temp is adds anxiety which adds to the thrill. Sure it does!
> 
> Really, just wait a few hours and then enjoy the temp rise!


Exactly, but I don't consider that to be "Overly" concerned.

And since none of the big hunks of whole meat could possibly be done in 2 or 3 hours, I see no reason to not wait to put the sterilized probe in.

Bear


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## foamheart

But we all still have to live on the safe side here. would you not hate for someone to sicken their family because of what you say? Ere to the side of safety.

I said in the beginning that I thought it good   BUT........................................ Its your cook, no one but you has the final say.

If you will clean off slimy, clotted, funky colored brined bacon and smoke and eat it, a probe insertion really doesn't scare me. LOL

I


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## jp61

I wonder if anyone ever measured the temperature of the probe itself, the portion inserted into the meat, at the 4hr mark. The probe is made from SS and a good portion of it is sitting outside of the meat in the ambient 225°+ temperature conducting heat. Depending on difference between the internal temperature of the meat, its ambient temperature, rate of heat transfer in the probe and whatever else variable that may apply, could it be possible that the entire probe and the immediate surrounding meat would reach 140° in 4hrs?  

Edit: never mind! I didn't think it all the way through. The answer is absolutely NOT possible. If this could happen the thermometer would be registering a false IT reading.


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