# Been a while! New Electric Build!



## whitegardens (Apr 16, 2021)

Been a long time since I have posted in the forum. Thought I would share my new electric smoker build. 

I currently use a MES analog that was heavily modified.

I ended up building a pid controller to get the utmost control. It was a separate box with a plug for versatility. 

This thing has served me extremely well and I cannot complain. But my only drawback is tge size of the unit. 

It's not wide enough for a full rack of ribs and I always have to cut them. That and I want more versatility to utilize it as an oven for roasting also. 

So here's the lowdown. Going to use a wide body charcoal smoker. The coal box will be utilized for the electrical components. 

I am also going with 220 plug and a 240 volt broiler element that should fit perfectly. I will have to wire the plug in my house, but I'm OK with that as I need to have one anyways in the garage. 


More pics to come as I build. 
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## whitegardens (Apr 19, 2021)

Parts coming in. 

Going to get a deep junction box to mount the element to. The stainless steel block off plate to delete the pass through for the charcoal off set box. The steel should provide more than enough support. 

I'll need to trim the support bars on the element to fit exactly and need to figure out how I'm going to place a water pan over it. 

The drip pan is horrendous. I'll end up using the one off my masterbuilt for extra capacity.


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## bill1 (Apr 20, 2021)

Keep the pics coming.  I'll be following this!  
Love the large red wheels.  The effect of  wobble in the legs can be more than you think so if you put an "X" cross-brace, from wheel to diagonal-wheel, with the X bolted or welded in the middle to make 4 triangles, you might be surprised how much nicer they move around.  I just used 1/2" EMT conduit from the electrical section, hammered the ends flat, and used a vice to squeeze the middle crossing-point together.


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## whitegardens (Apr 20, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Keep the pics coming.  I'll be following this!
> Love the large red wheels.  The effect of  wobble in the legs can be more than you think so if you put an "X" cross-brace, from wheel to diagonal-wheel, with the X bolted or welded in the middle to make 4 triangles, you might be surprised how much nicer they move around.  I just used 1/2" EMT conduit from the electrical section, hammered the ends flat, and used a vice to squeeze the middle crossing-point together.



That is an excellent suggestion! On the Masterbuilt smoker, it seemed pretty solid for the most part. I think the holes are going to line up with the new on and I might end up recycling the feet and wheels for the new build. The feet on the new smoker don't seem quite as sturdy. That and it will cut down on fab work. Cross braces with the conduit would be a good added touch!


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## whitegardens (Apr 20, 2021)

*So I need input on which direction to go with generating smoke.*

With the PID controller the element never cycles enough to get the smoke rolling from the original chip container in the smoker.

What I currently have a is a piece of steel pipe that I use with a soldering iron. I have found wood pellets burn the best, but can do chips also. 

If I continue with this method, I would install a flange to screw the pipe to the unit to make it a cleaner fit. On my current smoker I just drilled a hole and jammed it in and that has been sufficient.

Smoke generators are expensive. I like this unit, but it looks like you would be stuck with ordering cartridges specifically, and I don't need 4 hours of smoke with each cartridge. When I do a colder smoke on jerky or fish, it doesn't take much smoke at all to generate the flavor, especially with the pellets.

So, any other suggestions on a smoke generator? Right now I'm thinking about keeping the same design. I don't think it's necessary to spend north of 120 dollars for a smoke generator.


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## whitegardens (Apr 20, 2021)

Bump...


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## whitegardens (Apr 24, 2021)

In progress, coming along nicely so far. 

I must of deleted the photo of the smoker itself that I'm using. 

Not sure if I would buy this as a charcoal smoker or not. Not insulated, steel is of medium weight. 

Block off plate is done. Element mounts up nicely on the receptacle box.


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## whitegardens (Apr 27, 2021)

Parts are starting to trickle in.

Not wanting to assemble the smoker until I get the controls and wiring installed in the coal box. 

Going to do a 20amp, 4 prong rv hookup plug for the drop cord. This way I can also use the 220 drop cord for my generator also.

Instead of a mechanical, 2 pole contactor, I'm going with 2 solid state relays to kill both power wires for the 220. I like the simplicity of the ssr and it eliminates any mechanics. 

If it was 110, I would use one ssr.

Thermal paste is for mounting the ssr(s). Not sure if it is neccisary, but will use it anyway. Going to use the metal cabinet for the heat sink.


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## whitegardens (May 9, 2021)

Finally having a chance to continue with the project. I have started going back to my office for work and also starting to travel again for my job. 

Had a great 48 hours working on the project. I originally was going to put my receptacle plug on the side of the cabinet. But then I realized I would be better off making a service plate to mount all my components. 

So what I did was to cut the welds holding the shelf brackets in the coal box. Not 100% sure what it is for, but had something to do with the coal dish, etc... I moved them up so I could utilize the bottom of the coal box for storage.

My area for the components is fairly large, but I wanted plenty of space along with the potential to add equipment. I'm already considering using a pcu fan in the box to keep things cool, and also force a bit of air through the cabinet as there is a small hole in the  bottom of the gang box I used to mount my element. I did this for drainage around the connections at the element. Also built a hood over my gang box as I want to minimize any condensation around that area.

Easier to upload pics via a cpu rather than the mobile site. But, the multiple pics might be out of sequence.


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## FFchampMT (May 9, 2021)

On the topic of smoke generators - I've been chewing over an idea on how to utilize a small aquarium air pump to feed air in to a vertical pipe setup like you have. Do you think if you put a hose nipple on the side near the bottom of your pipe you could force air in and up to feed the burn and push smoke out to your smoker?
The upside is that those small air pumps are cheap, and adjustable.


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## whitegardens (May 9, 2021)

I've been contemplating my smoke generator, and I think I'm going to stick with the soldering iron setup I have now. It's a good kiss method. 

It's worked well and extremely simple. I'm going to purchase a flange to have a solid connection between my pipe and smoker.


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## whitegardens (Jun 12, 2021)

In progress... Been drawn out due to traveling for work and summer activities. 

Got sidetracked too due to building an independent, 50 gallon single nozzle sprayer for land maintenance on my family property. 

Deep cycle battery as to not pull from the atv that's pulling it.


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## whitegardens (Jun 12, 2021)

Not 100%20 sure where I left off. 

This is what's left. 

1.) wire 240 plug for power. All parts have been purchased. 

2.) install robbed fan from countertop convection oven. Decided I needed air movement for jerky making especially. 

3.) wire everything up of course. 

4.) figure out tray to put water pan just below the heating element. Or find different option. 

5.) install rack over heating element. Going to use ceramic briquettes to control drips over element and temperature stability. 

6.) install smoke generator. 


Luckily, the legs and wheels were identical to the mes smoker. All I did was remove from the old one, fresh coat of paint, and installed on the new smoker.


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## whitegardens (Jun 12, 2021)

Fan that I will be using. I have since removed the shroud and have tested the air movement. 

I went ahead and made a sharper angle on the fins, and it seems like it's just enough air movement for what I need. 

10 dollar black and decker toaster oven on Facebook marketplace..lots of them on there, so replacement parts will be easy if needed. 

There is a fan on the back side and that might help move air in the coal box, and should help keep the ss relays cool during cycling. 

Going to mount the motor inside the box and drill just a big enough hole for the motor shaft to go through the box. 

The fan will be below my burner shroud. Going to fid perfectly.


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## whitegardens (Jun 20, 2021)

Dragging out...

Had a chance today to finally put hands on this today again, just to leave town for a week.

With some modifications, I got the fan installed.

Before installing, I did a bench test a variable speed controller for the fan. Purchased on Amazon, I got this one for the voltage adjustment and the fact I'm running a tiny motor. I was able to tweek it to where I get a 50% reduction in speed with the knob on the lowest setting.

This is going to work better than expected..


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## whitegardens (Jun 27, 2021)

Getting a bit more done, just got back from a week out west for work. 

My goal is to have it operational in the next 7 days. 

Conduit and thermocouple installed, wire trimmed. Not sure if I like it 100%, but it works for now. Used JB weld at the coal box instead of trying to weld brass and steel together. 

Cutouts for switches and my variable speed controller are done. 

Hoping for more progress today.


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## whitegardens (Jun 29, 2021)




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## whitegardens (Jun 30, 2021)

It's alive!


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## Steve H (Jul 1, 2021)

Looks good! Though I'm not crazy about the 2 SSRs for power to the element. Why didn't you get a DPDT SSR instead?


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## Winterrider (Jul 1, 2021)

The only thing that wasn't Greek to me was the needle nose pliers.    Looks good though!


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## whitegardens (Jul 1, 2021)

Double post


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## whitegardens (Jul 1, 2021)

Steve H said:


> Looks good! Though I'm not crazy about the 2 SSRs for power to the element. Why didn't you get a DPDT SSR instead?



Honestly didn't look hard enough to find one in all reality. 

Do have a link to one are referring to? I can always make things better. 

The only advantage I can think of to my set up is heat dissipation for the SSRs.


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## whitegardens (Jul 1, 2021)

More details.

Needed some sort of grate and recycled the coal basket and is going to be phenomenal with the ceramic briquettes and I'll put my water pan on here.

Not crazy about the wire holding it for now, but it will allow me to test.


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## Steve H (Jul 2, 2021)

whitegardens said:


> Honestly didn't look hard enough to find one in all reality.
> 
> Do have a link to one are referring to? I can always make things better.
> 
> The only advantage I can think of to my set up is heat dissipation for the SSRs.



I didn't realize the cost of them. Used them. But never bought one. Ouch! Perhaps your set up is a better go around.


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## whitegardens (Jul 2, 2021)

Steve H said:


> I didn't realize the cost of them. Used them. But never bought one. Ouch! Perhaps your set up is a better go around.



More than likely why I didn't come across those! Lol

The parts individually for this build aren't expensive and I'll probably acquire some backup parts to have on hand.

But, everything slowly adds up to a lot. I originally wanted to use a wirelessly monitored pid controller with food probes, but it was 275 dollars by the time it came from Italy. 

Something I would love to eventually upgrade to, but the ink bird 20 dollar pid is a better alternative for now.


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## whitegardens (Jul 2, 2021)

It's official... It's operational. 

Large quantities of meat will be smoked tomorrow......!!! 

Little bit of a breeze, and I'm seeing a 3* swing on average. Sometimes a degree more, sometimes a degree less. 

This is strictly with the auto tune only. 

My back porch has one enclosed side and that is where I'll use it during really windy days. 

Not going to fool with the programing yet. I will do that at some point. But for now I couldn't be happier!


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## whitegardens (Jul 9, 2021)

Getting ready to do 12lbs of jerky this weekend. 

No water pans of course, and will cover the plate with all ceramic bricks to minimize direct heat. 

Got my new probe in and am not happy with the location in the smoker being too close to the wall. But, it is responding well and I have my analog and digital thermometers to monitor other points. 

This is where I was thinking of doing a thermopile with 2-3 k type thermocouples and get a get average of the air temp. 

From my reading, I don't think you can do multiple RTD probes and can only use 1.

But it will do for now. Going to log all my cooks and batches for reference especially when I start playing with the PID settings. 

When ahead and axed my brass conduit and bought steel brake line this time. Cheaper and I can get it from a local automotive store. 

Also ordered some stainless steel hobby rod to make nicer s hooks to hang my plate above the burner. 

Will be easier to remove for cleaning.


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## forktender (Jul 9, 2021)

Sweet!!!


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## whitegardens (Jul 10, 2021)

Jerky day! 

Started at 7am. Set temp to 200 to get the jerky up to 160. As soon as it hit temp, then turned down to 130. 

Have played some with the pid I hit 1. 5 hours of only.   . 2 degree basically hold. Point 2......not 2.

Then the wind might pick up and then I get a - 2, +7 temp swing. 

Also, almost 100% humidity, rainy overcast. Still drying down good. 
	

		
			
		

		
	















Regardless, it's doing great for the most part. Bit of smaller bits of jerky I've pulled so far have been phenomenal in consistency and texture.

Doing the same 12lb batch I normally do. More room to spread them out and I feel I will speed up the process and gain time. 

Fan has also been on and I think that's helping.


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## whitegardens (Jul 18, 2021)

*Let's Do  A Wrap Up!*

This has been fun! Going from a modified MES smoker to stepping up to a 220 rig has been worth it so for. From proof of concept, both builds have been great and this one even better.

I am a former landscaper, and the next build someday will hopefully be a built in, outdoor oven mirroring an outdoor fireplace. I've already worked out how I want to do a custom firebrick lined box and then add a custom SS insert and racks. I would probably use racks that are of standard size for ovens in order to have simple replacements. Then put in a controller that can be accessed via Wi-Fi.

Someday though, but I digress.

So I'm at the point where this smoker is operational and has been used three times. A trial run, a cold smoke run, and a run just yesterday that included a brisket, beer can chicken, and a rack of baby back ribs.....

Rundown of the takeaways.

*1.) Getting the utmost temp control seems to be the key to maximizing run times and food quality in the end. *

      - Obviously a given, but you start to see the difference and it's dramatic. My jerky especially, though some of it might be due to the cabinet space etc... I truly believe the temp was the factor. The fan I added also worked way better than expected in terms of temp control. I didn't think I would need it with standard smoking at 250* degrees, but I was wrong. I ran 4 hours yesterday with three thermometers reading differently, once I put the fan on high, they all pretty synced up. Previous to that though, I didn't notice and cooking difference in the meat.

So I'm at the point where this smoker is operational and has been used three times. A trial run, a cold smoke run, and a run just yesterday that included a brisket, beer can chicken, and a rack of baby back ribs.....

*2.) Size Matters.*

     - The size of the box is exceptional.........Not only has it allowed me to space the components well (IE-Burner), but has allowed me to add more than enough water pans , diffuser plate, etc.... Then on top of it, it's making cleanup less of a chore. The Masterbuilt MES analog model I was using before was a pain to clean, especially under the burner. 

     -I have had plenty of room to smoke different items on different levels on one run and it was great. All the while I didn't even come close to using the full capacity of the 3 racks I was using.  With all 6 racks, you could easily lay out 12 racks of baby rack ribs, or one full slab on each rack. I also hunt and utilize venison (obviously for the jerky) and I want to start making my own salami and snack sticks.  My goal is to do 25lb batches at a time, and with 6 racks, I should be able to accomplish this. With Jerky, I could possibly do a full 25 lb. batch and slam it in there, but I'll stick with the 12lb. batches. The little bit of extra space between the pieces I assumed helped out. 

     - The craziest part is that these racks are only 7" wider and same 12" depth as a MES, but putting a whole rack of ribs in without cutting is priceless, and can't wait to do a large brisket someday.

*3.) Ceramic Briquettes, I'm sold*

     - Now granted, I have more water than before as an added heat sink, but when doing jerky I noticed the advantages also. Basically they are easy to clean. They hold a lot of the crap that falls and to clean them, I just rotate them out with the ones I have on my grill. This way I'm not taking any extra time to clean them. But most importantly, I believe they add to my recovery time after I've had the door open. This coupled with being a 220 element, It takes 5 minutes to get back to stable temp. Yes, you don't want to be opening the door often, ever, but it's good to know that I can without possibly adding another hour of cooking time.....

There is way more detail I can go into, but that is the brief synopsis.
*
- Changes I will make, most likely.*

So of course there are a couple things that I need to address.

1.) When not in use, the smoke vessel collects water. This is due to my high moisture content I'm getting in the smoker. It is what it is. I have already ordered a SS plug to put in place when not in use. I will just remove the vessel when not smoking. I did not encounter this on my MES smoker and I'm guessing it's do to the fact that the current Dyna-Glo Box is tighter.

2.) My PID controller is too cheap. It's an inkbird general PID. I'm going to struggle to get that temp perfection out of it unfortunately. I did see gleaming signs at low temp that it's achievable to keep within  .5*  degrees.  Eventually I plan on upgrading. I've looked into a smart PID made in Italy with WI-FI controls and food monitoring. This is a 250-300 dollar investment. Auber has a setup I'm considering also...... Regardless, I'm now understanding that all PID controllers aren't the same and there are some that will hone in on your specific needs. 

My Inkbird doesn't have gain control, but it has a massive range for the Derivative (D). With the massive derivative I'm getting little to no overshoot, but the drawback is that when you do that, you get longer settling times to get back to short swings. This derivative is needed for the heat loss of the cabinet, and the soak time needed to correct the temperature of the diffuser plate above. The element response time is great with the 220, takes only 10 seconds or less to glow red.

Currently, I'm getting  +1* temp overshoot at most and -6* under. I've played with P and I to trying and minimize the under, but this might be the best I can do. But, overshoot is the killer on lower temp processes, and minimizing that is great.

Inkbird ITC-106

C- 1 ( 1-4 for SS state relays)
P- 8
I- 13
D- 2000

I might be even contacting Auber next week to discuss a standard 1/16th DIN PID that would work better than what I got. 

Really do I need to be splitting hairs like I am. Probably not.... But this portion of the build is the rabbit hole for perfection and just to see how much control I can achieve. Even if I want more remote monitoring, I can always just do a standalone BBQ and food thermometer. But, the overall investment for both, might be a better investment for 1.

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=464


3.) Sealing the cabinet better.

I tried some high temp stove sealer and it' just drying out. The best I've used so far is High Temp, Heavy duty, red gasket sealer. It's made for oil and other chemicals (and turbo chargers) and has resisted what I've thrown at it so far. I'm getting moisture leaks at the seams and I'll use a tube of it for the seams to keep my drips from getting in-between the pieces you can't clean, and that's where it rots. This cabinet I intend to paint every spring also to keep it lasting longer.

4.) Insulation.

Being just sheet metal, I'm going to be getting too much heat loss. But I want to keep this thing light and portable, mainly for storage. So I have been looking into options, and being such a clean build, I plan on doing a custom fit cover. I intended on having a custom thermal cover made, but in the end I plan on using Ceramic fiber insulation (refractory) with foil protecting it on both sides. I've found both items, and I think I can pull it off with foil tape so that there is no sewing involved and do custom cut and panels.  This should cost around 100- 120 dollar to do. I'm willing to bet a custom cover ordered would be a minimum of 500 dollars. I can also patch it over time with foil tape if necessary.

The goal then would to minimize weight and outside temp variables such as sun and wind. This coupled with an upgraded PID would probably satisfy my desire for the utmost control.

5.) Power Input

My original intention with the 220 input plug in the front was to be able to slide the whole panel out, work on it, and re-install with it being wired almost 100%...But....... I don't like how it looks..............

I want to go ahead and put in another switch cutting the DC 12v power to my relays in order to keep the PID controller on, while making parameter changes. Or to leave the unit on, and cut the AC power to the element basically. 

So when I make that change, along with an updated PID controller, I'll modify my panel, and just run a pig tail out the back, put a plug on the end, and have a clamp to lock in place after the panel has been re-installed. This will keep a cleaner look over all while cooking. This will also help me to put on the coal box door for a weather tight seal if I need to in say wintery conditions. 

6.) Element.

little did I know that you can bend oven elements prior to first use. I have not tried the unit out at high temps where I want to achieve 400* degrees for cooking things like pizza.  But, if I do, and it fails, then I intend on buying an element with more surface area to bend into place if need be. Or, I can add a second, smaller element and still stay under my 30amp circuit and receptacle limit.


*Conclusion-*

In the end, with what I got, outstanding is all I can say..... The focus this time around to hone in on my temps and make sure I have the most control possible, is paying off immensely already. The food I've cooked has just been phenomenal. The cleaning, the control, the capacity, the consistency, and the results......

Overtime, as this build evolves, I plan on updating this thread. In the meantime, if you have gone through this rabbit hole to this point, please feel free to ask any questions, or, make any suggestions. I will check occasionally and do get email notifications in my personal email when someone replies.

I'll post pics from time to time of the foods that I will be doing. Salami, smoked salt, nuts, cheese, fish, etc.....

Thanks!


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## whitegardens (Oct 31, 2021)

Hi! Little update.

Used a few times... Starting to get a feel for the flaws in the design.

Biggest one being heat loss from the single wall sheet metal. I had did a run at higher temps and with a breeze, the temps wouldn't stabilize.

This and I had also processed 

I had assumed out of the gate that this was probably going to be a problem....

So to insulated, I didn't want to go the cheapest route, which is a fire blanket, but I also didn't want to spend  $1200+ for a custom, industrial blanket.

My solution....

Find aluminum backed, ceramic insulation, add foil tape to the unfinished side, and make my own custom blanket.

Finally have a chance to start on it today... Getting the larger foil tape on the unfinished side is going well so far.

Also will be finishing the edges also, and possibly etching the foil tape and painting the outside black.

The cost savinging and custom fit is what I'm ultimately looking for.


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## Ringer (Oct 31, 2021)

whitegardens said:


> Hi! Little update.
> 
> Used a few times... Starting to get a feel for the flaws in the design.
> 
> ...


Great solution!


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## whitegardens (Oct 31, 2021)

Got the front and back done today.

Super glued small power magnets to keep the cover in place.

I will say, it's heavier than I expected. Probably could of went with 1/4" instead of 1/2".


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## whitegardens (Nov 5, 2021)

The glue and small magnets weren't enough. Ended up using foil tape to keep larger magnets in place.

I'm out of the wide foil tape and have ordered more to finish.

Front door and back panel are done.


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## whitegardens (Nov 12, 2021)

Super glue on the magnets didn't work.
So I just used foil tape to adhere. The panels stick to the smoker and stay nicely in place.

Currently testing the results... Will have a write up afterwards.


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## the1pearson (Nov 13, 2021)

I love the detail with the ceramic blanket. I used fire blankets for the same reason and like my results though not as nice of an appearance!


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## whitegardens (Nov 13, 2021)

the1pearson said:


> I love the detail with the ceramic blanket. I used fire blankets for the same reason and like my results though not as nice of an appearance![/TD]



Thanks!

It did turn out as good or better than I expected! 

The only noticeable heat loss is coming from the seams between each panel, and that seems nominal in comparison to what I achieved. I had considered taping the main body panels together for this reason, but I've decided against it so I can stack them for storage, and not fight to get it on.

Let the unit run for an hour last night, and very much sustained temps! Even being colder and breezy out, the pid seemed to be reacting close to the way it should. I need to reset the parameters to achieve the holy grail of 1* temp swing that I'm after. The pid did get close to that, but the temp it sustained was 3* warmer than the set point. This is due to me jacking D up to 3000........

I'm also considering a chemical etching on the foil in order to paint it to dull down the shine, but it might be more work than neccisary. 

That and the flexibility of the blanket would probably make the paint eventually flake off.

If anyone intends to do this......... 

You can save yourself some money and headache by ordering a thinner, ceramic blanket that you can then fold over and tape together. This way you won't have to order the wide foil backed tape to install on the unfinished side.

Mine came in at 1/2" thickness... I feel it was a shade  too thick. Closer to 1/4" might work fine but that would be up to the application. I purchased the ceramic blanket on ebay. 

I had around $250 in it after the magnets and such. Finding a thinner blanket, folding it over, etc.  You could keep the cost down closer to 200 probably. Even cheaper yet for smaller smokers. My original guess on a custom industrial blanket would have probably been well over $1200.00.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 27, 2021)

Wow!!!
All Very Cool !!!
Also so far over my Head, I can't even make comments on it.
Nice Job!
Like.

Bear


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## chopsaw (Nov 27, 2021)

I agree . That's a nice looking build . Not sure how I missed it the first time .


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## Workaholic (Nov 29, 2021)

Wow!  The attention to detail is amazing.  Love this build.  Glad it's working so well for you.  I am curious, however.  Have you considered using something like a cast iron griddle on the element, with wood chips for smoke generation?  That would eliminate the condensation issue you have, and it could be removed as soon as the unit cools down.  The one down side is I don't know how long it would hold up, but might be worth a try.


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## whitegardens (Nov 29, 2021)

Workaholic said:


> Have you considered using something like a cast iron griddle on the element, with wood chips for smoke generation?  That would eliminate the condensation issue you have, and it could be removed as soon as the unit cools down.



Thank you for the kind words! There will still be a lot of tweaking as it's not 100% perfect. Such as still trying to get my magnets to stay on my wrap......

I have considered this, but.......... I originally went with the external smoke generation for the utmost control. Originally on my MES smoker, this setup worked perfectly with few issues, hence why I went this direction.

The reason for the external wood chips was due to the PID controller only fluttering the element, especially when all variables were minimal for heat loss. So happened was that the original chip pan wouldn't get hot enough to start the burning process in the chips. Basically was left with almost charcoal with no smoke to speak of.

I prefer the external also as I can start/stop the chips on the fly without having to open up the unit.

Now, will this happen on this setup? Not sure. I could try and and mod my element support in order to hold a chip tray to take the weight. As it stands, it's just enough to hold it up. 

The position of my smoke generator I believe is part of the problem too. I mounted it at the end of the element and there is a gap from the end of the element to the edge of the cabinet. My thinking is that I am getting a down draft in this spot causing a backdraft of air and moisture into the smoke generator. The last build, it was under a hotter spot and my thinking is this also helped get more natural updraft through the generator to sustain smoking and keep moisture from getting into the generator.

So, my first goal is to MOD the generator....

      1.) Going to add more lower holes to help aid in air flow through it.

      2.) Originally used the same soldering iron as the last on, which is 45 watts and 750* max temp. To overcome the                         new found humidity levels with this unit, I am going to try and us a higher wattage, 900* soldering iron, or....I                           think as it will be cheaper, I am going to find a larger wattage cartridge heater to overcome my problems to get a                  better burn. The one I listed is 100 watts. But I need to look at max temps, etc... before deciding on trying one.


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## Workaholic (Nov 29, 2021)

Another option for smoke generation, would be one of those tubes or trays for pellets.  A lot of guys on here report excellent success using one in an electric smokers.


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## whitegardens (Dec 31, 2021)

Going to be modifying the smoke generator over the next few days. 

I was able to play with it some while cold smoking salt and roasting smoked nuts for Christmas presents. 

I realize that with the 45 watt soldering iron, I'm not building enough heat to overcome the moisture issues, for a few reasons... 

1.) I need better airflow and more holes. 

2.) Need to modify the "grate" on the inside where the pellets/chips actually rest. 

3.) I need more heat to overcome the moisture issue. 

So I've ordered 130 watt cartridge heaters to play with. Not getting into the weeds of thermal density and power input, but it should get pretty hot. It's amazing the wattage ratings on some of these. 

Picked this one specifically for the diameter. Basically the size is perfect for my existing hole. 
	

		
			
		

		
	








So we will see how it goes... If welI, I might end up doing another pid controller for the smoke generator. So basically when I have good ignition on the wood, it will shut it off automatically... 

But for now, I'll wire it to a plug and manually turn it on/off.


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## whitegardens (Jan 1, 2022)

Ya... 

The cartridge heater looks to be the way to go. Needless to say, it appears that it's going to be more than enough heat to overcome any moisture issues and make sure there is plenty of upward air convection. 

Took the time to drill more vent holes for air flow, cut out a new grate and installed a retainer pin to hold it, and the cartridge heater in position. 

Going to be doing jerky tomorrow, so I will be able to test it right away. Pretty confident though that it will work great.


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## bill1 (Jan 2, 2022)

Maybe I'm just a coward but I've been hesitant to use those cartridge heaters at full power with their only heat sink being loosely touching pellets which have their own energy source (ie they're burning themselves!)   After all they're intended to slide in a thick piece of metal and transfer their heat well into a large surface area.  I'd be afraid the lifetime would be pretty short in hot pellets.  
However I've had good luck with just putting a diode in one of the leads to block half of the 60Hz sine wave going to the filaments at full wallplug voltage.  These work fine: 








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## whitegardens (Jan 2, 2022)

bill1 said:


> Maybe I'm just a coward but I've been hesitant to use those cartridge heaters at full power with their only heat sink being loosely touching pellets.



I have actually thought about this scenario and don't disagree.... I too am curious as to the longevity of the cartridge heater in this environment. 

Around 6 bucks for two, I decided to take the plung with it. Even if I'm in the middle of cooking, I can still revert back to the soldering iron.

But even if it does work, I agree that without a heat sink, the potential for burnout is large. 

The diode idea is great! I'll think about using in the future if I consider going this route after testing... I'm also considering either some sort of simple thermostat or even another PID controller in order to cycle the cartridge heater. Once the pellets or wood start to burn on their own, then I should have the heater turn off as it will be ineffective at that point. 

As of now, my hope is that using a lower wattage cartridge heater will give me some longevity over extreme high wattage offerings. The one I chose is 130 watts, and actually would have preferred to be closer to 100...i choose this one being close to the dimensions of my current hole in the smoke tube. 

In the end, I'll manually control it for test runs today. The main objective is just proof of concept and I'll post results if course. 

And luckily, being how I've configured my setup and my smoke generator being isolated, I have little fear of the ramifications of burning out the cartridge and feel comfortable testing. 

Thanks for the input!


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## whitegardens (Jan 2, 2022)

bill1 said:


> Maybe I'm just a coward but I've been hesitant to use those cartridge heaters at full power with their only heat sink being loosely touching pellets...



Doing more research... 

It appears cartridge heaters can be used in open air applications as long as it is a medium to low density unit. 

I have not done the hard calculation on the ones I purchased, but at first glance, it's no more than a medium density cartridge heater.. 

https://www.tri-volt.com/industrial/cartridge-heater/

We will see as there is other variables that will affect its lifespan also.


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## whitegardens (Jan 2, 2022)

First impression of the cartridge... 

Pretty awesome. Smoke in 30 seconds... Rolling smoke in less than a minute. 

Turned it off and it still burning.


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## Fueling Around (Jan 2, 2022)

Great thread.

I'm going to be using this for ideas when I build my Westinghouse fridge smoker

A controller on your smoke generator and a small fan and you have a mini pellet pooper


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## whitegardens (Jan 2, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> A controller on your smoke generator and a small fan and you have a mini pellet pooper



So what I've found so far is that all I need is ignition in the smoke generator and that's it. Ultimately I have let it run for a minute with fresh pellets, then turn it off. 

Between a better grate and air flow, it has kept itself ignited and burned itself out without having to turn the cartridge burner back on. 

If I did a controller, it would probably be a timed shutoff after 1 minute or so.


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## bill1 (Jan 5, 2022)

whitegardens said:


> ...Once the pellets or wood start to burn on their own, then I should have the heater turn off as it will be ineffective at that point.
> 
> As of now, my hope is that using a lower wattage cartridge heater will give me some longevity over extreme high wattage offerings. The one I chose is 130 watts...


I was thinking a $1 Schottky diode and a $1 switch that shorts it out so you have a low and hi power setting.  But at just 130W, a normal light dimmer switch (~$15) gives you variable control from full to off.  Something else to consider.  

And I agree once you get your pellets smoking you'll soon learn when you can cut the power completely to prolong heater life. 

I too have seen higher power cartridge heaters, but they tend to be bigger diameter and longer.  And it's the power density (power divided by heated area) that determines how much you're stressing the innards each time you thermally cycle them.  Make sure you're correcting for area (pi*radius-squared*length) when comparing different wattages.  

Final suggestion: a tube of pellets tends to burn _up _better than down or sideways so how you orient the pipe can make a difference.  Just make sure the pipe has a good draft path to "breathe" in O2.  Once your tube is lit and smoking, throttling this air flow is probably a better "smoke control" than to fiddle again with the cartridge "pellet igniter".


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## whitegardens (Jan 7, 2022)

bill1 said:


> Just make sure the pipe has a good draft path to "breathe" in O2.  Once your tube is lit and smoking, throttling this air flow is probably a better "smoke control" than to fiddle again with the cartridge "pellet igniter".



This is the other variable that has been I hindrance. 

Too many pellets, and it chokes out the updraft for sure.

So now that I have great ignition, I'll now take a measuring device to get a more precise amount of pellets in the tube each time to avoid this issue. 

I'll mess with wood chips also and see if there is a volume threshold also, but my initial guess is that I can add more just because of how they loosely lay compared to pellets. 

Thank you for your input, especially with the watt density equation. Luckily for now, I'm only needing to run the cartridge heater for 30-60 seconds, and as long as I have proper updraft, it doesn't need to be reignited. 

But, I do like the idea of a voltage control switch or standard dimmer to control the heater precisily if/when needed.


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## JLeonard (Jan 7, 2022)

Holy cow! That is a great thread of a build. Like others have said....Little lost on the technical aspects but in awe of the build.
Jim


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## whitegardens (Jan 16, 2022)

JLeonard said:


> Holy cow! That is a great thread of a build. Like others have said....Little lost
> 
> on the technical aspects but in awe of the build.
> Jim



Much appreciated!

As for the technical aspects of this build, it really isn't more than just understanding the basics....

Just have to pay attention to your electrical ratings for each part in the system and double check and confirm your work. Ultimately, I'm on a 220, 30amp circuit. All parts on the unit are rated at 30amps and all draw calculations of the until is well under 30amps. This actually allows me to install a bigger element or add a smaller one if I like to do a two stage system if I felt neccisary.... 



Luckily, I have a friend from grade school who is an electrical engineer, master distiller, etc.... whom I have been able to consult and confirm things with.

It definitely gave me more confidence in my work.


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## whitegardens (Feb 14, 2022)

Little maintenance update...

So my burner utilizes a spade type connection, which isn't neccisarily bad, but my amp draw, and any imperfections in the connection caused an arc and burned out the connection.

Luckily, I was at the end of a cold smoking run of cheese, so nothing was lost.

1.) I found a replacement burner with screw type connectors and have since installed. This should help eliminate any possible bad connections.

2.) noticed my lightweight, dirt cheap ssr's were melting...... Upgraded those along with a low resistance, braided 10 gauge wire with high temp insulation. 

If I still have problems with my relays, I'll have to install a fan to help disipate the heat from heat sinks. Personally though, these inkbird relays are heavier than the knockoffs I used, so their quality seems better and similar to the fotek relay I used on my mes smoker that never caused me any issues.

Going to hopefully get 5-6 various runs out of it again, before I break it down this summer and touch up the paint.

Also went ahead and bought some expanded metal to make a tray to hold my ceramic briquettes.. My make shift one didn't cover the bottom completely and I think I was getting a hot side from the upward convection of the heat.


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