# Are you guys using the 625PPM Nitrite in Dry Cured sausages?



## indaswamp (Apr 5, 2020)

The USDA has set the maximum PPM of sodium Nitrite @ 625PPM for dry cured salami. I see recipes were people are only using 0.25% (156PPM). Some are using 0.3% (200PPM). It is rare to see the maximum dose of 1% (625PPM). My question is why?

We use the maximum of 156% when making smoke sausages. And I use the max. 200PPM recommended when making dry cured bacon.

Thanks for the replies to this quandary. (of course cure #2 will be used when making dry cured salami that will be in the drying chamber for over a month...)


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## daveomak (Apr 12, 2020)

The amount of cure, whether #1 or #2, depends on the length of time the meat is susceptible to botulism... 
Dried meats are susceptible, while they are hanging for months, due to other bacteria consuming the oxygen...  The outside of the meat slows, reduces or eliminates oxygen permeation into the meat... 
Friendly bacteria will still multiply and convert the nitrate to nitrite to continue protection...
Cure#1 can be added in stages... 150 Ppm now, add more in a week and again later....


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## indaswamp (Apr 12, 2020)

Thought that was the case, but figured I'd ask. Thanks Dave.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 12, 2020)

As I understand, the 625ppm is safe for dried sausage because,,,, nitrite converts to nitric oxide. That’s how the curing takes place. It’s the nitric oxide that cures the meat and kills botulism. So when using nitrate in dried sausage and salumi, over time the nitrate converts to nitrite, then to nitric oxide, as such continued botulism control is maintained through out the drying process. At the end of that long process, most of the nitrite has converted to NO (nitric oxide) and is safe to consume.
The same thing is happening in brine with maximum levels of nitrite. Brine time is shorter, uptake is less than the brine, and by the time the product is processed and the consumer takes it home, sufficient nitrite (NO2) has converted to nitric oxide (NO) and is safe to consume. Nitrite uptake (NO2) safety levels are set at 200 ppm in the food, but again as I understand, those levels in the meat will continue to drop over time, plus cooking above 130* further breaks down the nitrite.


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## daveomak (Apr 12, 2020)

SmokinEdge said:


> As I understand, the 625ppm is safe for dried sausage because,,,, nitrite converts to nitric oxide. That’s how the curing takes place. It’s the nitric oxide that cures the meat and kills botulism. So when using nitrate in dried sausage and salumi, over time the nitrate converts to nitrite, then to nitric oxide, as such continued botulism control is maintained through out the drying process. At the end of that long process, most of the nitrite has converted to NO (nitric oxide) and is safe to consume.
> The same thing is happening in brine with maximum levels of nitrite. Brine time is shorter, uptake is less than the brine, and by the time the product is processed and the consumer takes it home, sufficient nitrite (NO2) has converted to nitric oxide (NO) and is safe to consume. Nitrite uptake (NO2) safety levels are set at 200 ppm in the food, but again as I understand, those levels in the meat will continue to drop over time, plus cooking above 130* further breaks down the nitrite.



You are mistaken about brines....  Please see the immersion cured column..... and the pumped column...


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## daveomak (Apr 12, 2020)

FSIS...  Food Safety Inspection Service regulations.....



			https://www.aamp.com/foodsafety/documents/Directive7620-3.pdf
		


.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 13, 2020)

daveomak said:


> You are mistaken about brines....  Please see the immersion cured column..... and the pumped column...
> 
> 
> View attachment 439985


Not sure where we crossed Dave, I said 200ppm in brine. I never mentioned pumping either.
As a side, going off what Pops and others have stated on SMF, maximum allowable cure #1 in brine for 1 gallon of water is 3.88 oz. that is right around 1770ppm brine. So brine time is shorter than with, say, Pops brine at about 1 oz. per gallon water Which is recommended to brine about 3-4 times longer. 
I sure respect you‘re knowledge Dave. Never want to cross that with you.


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## daveomak (Apr 13, 2020)

The length of time meat should be held in a curing brine is relative to the time it takes for nitrite to penetrate the meat... approx 1/4" per 24 hours...  
The concentration of the brine, whether it be salt or nitrite or sugar it totally dependent on the size of the molecule trying to penetrate the meat muscle....  
Concentration has nothing to do with the "speed" of the curing process....
The concentration of the brine you make should take into account the weight of the meat and weight of the brining liquid...  Final concentration should be calculated to approx. equal the concentration of the meat desired upon completion...
example...... 1000 grams meat + 1000 grams liquid = 2000 grams at 156 Ppm nitrite needs 
2000 x 0.000156 = 0.312 grams nitrite / .0625= 4.99 grams cure#1 dissolved in the 1000 grams of liquid...  Which makes the initial concentration of the 1000 grams of liquid....
4.99 / 1000  = .00499 x 0.0625 = .000312 or 312 Ppm nitrite


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 13, 2020)

daveomak said:


> The length of time meat should be held in a curing brine is relative to the time it takes for nitrite to penetrate the meat... approx 1/4" per 24 hours...
> The concentration of the brine, whether it be salt or nitrite or sugar it totally dependent on the size of the molecule trying to penetrate the meat muscle....
> Concentration has nothing to do with the "speed" of the curing process....
> The concentration of the brine you make should take into account the weight of the meat and weight of the brining liquid...  Final concentration should be calculated to approx. equal the concentration of the meat desired upon completion...
> ...


Understood.
Pops has talked about, at some length, how his dad‘s cure was weaker, took longer to cure, but that imparted more flavor and tenderness to the product. NYS tested his brine monthly and found it to be on the low end, but acceptable cure levels.
Additionally, member here by the name of Wade, had some independent lab test ran on full strength brine vs. Pops brine, and in fact the stronger brine imparted a vast amount more nitrite uptake than the weaker brine. 
I understand total weight to cure. That’s just not how most people apply brine. Pops as a good example. I have never seen a specified meat weight to the 1gallon of brine. Just what it will cover, and if it’s short, simply cut the recipe in half, make another half gallon and cover it. That method is widely accepted here on SMF and is more cavalier than hard numbers. 
I tend to prefer the EQ method where salt, sugar and cure are applied per total weight of product + Brine weight.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 13, 2020)

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results.181560/
uptake seems definitely driven by brine strength in this lab test.


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## daveomak (Apr 14, 2020)

I know of Wade's test...  The thing he didn't understand is "take up" described by the FSIS is.....  take up = quantity injected....   not natural "suck up" as different cuts of meat adsorb liquid at different rates and quantities....   "take up" is a weighed amount measured by the processors after injection by their needle injectors....   His tests show the different amounts per muscle group...   I know of that as I worked for a meat processor for a period of time.....


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 20, 2020)

From Stanley Marianski’s book, “Spanish Sausages”


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## daveomak (Apr 20, 2020)

SE, morning...  What point are you trying to make, with that picture of page 66 of Marianski's book, Spanish Sausage...


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 20, 2020)

Morning Dave,
Just was reading this and it reminded me of this thread. Just passing this information on to the OP.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 20, 2020)

daveomak said:


> You are mistaken about brines....  Please see the immersion cured column..... and the pumped column...
> 
> Evening Dave,
> Question for you. On this SMF, it has been stated, multiple times, that 3.88 oz. is the maximum allowable nitrite in brine of 1 gallon. That equates to about, 1800 ppm of nitrite in the brine liquid. From your quote from FSIS, only 200 ppm are allowed in nitrite for brine. How does this work? I’m trying to learn something here, not challenging you.
> ...


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## daveomak (Apr 20, 2020)

_Evening Dave,
Question for you. On this SMF, it has been stated, multiple times, that 3.88 oz. is the maximum allowable nitrite in brine of 1 gallon. That equates to about, 1800 ppm of nitrite in the brine liquid. From your quote from FSIS, only 200 ppm are allowed in nitrite for brine. How does this work? I’m trying to learn something here, not challenging you.
incorrect...  Maximum "ingoing" amount of nitrite in Ppm...  Means you have to calculate the nitrite in the brine, and know the weight of the meat to determine what the resulting Ppm will be when cured..
Pop’s brine with about 1 oz.  nitrite per gallon, is the lowest possible amount of nitrite to still get the job done, but using rough numbers, his brine is just over 200ppm in brine. So using 3.88 oz, is substantially over that. How does this work, exactly? Again, not challenging, but asking for guidance.
Thanks in advance. _

I don't know.....   Those are numbers Pops came up with...  I believe from old recipes when he worked in his fathers meat shop / grocery store in New York State...   They cured and smoked meats...  They also had inspections every week or so, to insure their products met federal standards...
Below is a book that describes meat practice in the 1910's and 1920's....  
*








						Secrets of meat curing and sausage making; how to cure hams, shoulders, bacon, corned beef, etc., and how to make all kinds of sausage, etc. to comply with the pure food laws : Heller, B., & co., Chicago. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					





					archive.org
				



* Pop's father may have been familiar with these writings...  anywho, I think some of the things you had questions about, something "may" have been lost in the translation....  and the FSIS handbook is listed in post#6 for anyone to look at...


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 21, 2020)

daveomak said:


> _Evening Dave,
> Question for you. On this SMF, it has been stated, multiple times, that 3.88 oz. is the maximum allowable nitrite in brine of 1 gallon. That equates to about, 1800 ppm of nitrite in the brine liquid. From your quote from FSIS, only 200 ppm are allowed in nitrite for brine. How does this work? I’m trying to learn something here, not challenging you.
> incorrect...  Maximum "ingoing" amount of nitrite in Ppm...  Means you have to calculate the nitrite in the brine, and know the weight of the meat to determine what the resulting Ppm will be when cured..
> Pop’s brine with about 1 oz.  nitrite per gallon, is the lowest possible amount of nitrite to still get the job done, but using rough numbers, his brine is just over 200ppm in brine. So using 3.88 oz, is substantially over that. How does this work, exactly? Again, not challenging, but asking for guidance.
> ...


So, how does this work in pop’s brine method? 
1 gallon brine may have 3# of meat, or have 15# meat. It’s all good if it’s coved.
Goes back to my earlier point. A brine with 650ppm nitrite would require less time in brine for sufficient uptake. The 200ppm brine in FSIS is assuming pump. However in immersion brine, we have to guess at the uptake over time. The higher ppm brine is obviously less soak time vs. a lower concentration of nitrite in brine. With pump, we know exactly how much nitrite has been injected, but immersion, not so much. 
Pop’s brine is low nitrite, compared to maximum allowable. So his brine requires a longer soak. I think his dad brined for about 30 days at that time. When commercial Hams and beef were made in a fraction of that time immersion, at that time.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 21, 2020)

daveomak said:


> The amount of cure, whether #1 or #2, depends on the length of time the meat is susceptible to botulism...
> Dried meats are susceptible, while they are hanging for months, due to other bacteria consuming the oxygen...  The outside of the meat slows, reduces or eliminates oxygen permeation into the meat...
> Friendly bacteria will still multiply and convert the nitrate to nitrite to continue protection...
> Cure#1 can be added in stages... 150 Ppm now, add more in a week and again later....


How exactly, do you add cure #1 to dried sausage now, and then more in a week and again later? This would apply to whole muscle curing, not sausage... correct?


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## daveomak (Apr 21, 2020)

SmokinEdge said:


> How exactly, do you add cure #1 to dried sausage now, and then more in a week and again later? This would apply to whole muscle curing, not sausage... correct?



There is a difference in regulations for sausage and whole muscle meat....   
You CAN'T add more cure to a sausage...  It is already mixed into the meat...  
It's whole muscle that needs subsequent additions....

From the FSIS handbook...   https://www.aamp.com/foodsafety/documents/Directive7620-3.pdf

NITRITE USED IN CURED, DRY PRODUCTS
Introduction
The amount of ingoing nitrite used in dry cured products, such as country ham, country style pork shoulder, prosciutto, etc., is based on the green weight of the meat or poultry in the product formulation.  These products are prepared from a single intact piece of meat or poultry that has had the curing ingredients directly applied to the surface, and has been dried for a specified period of time.  For large pieces of meat, the curing ingredients must be rubbed on the surface several times during the curing period.  The rubbed meat or poultry cuts are placed on racks or in boxes and allowed to cure.  Nitrite is applied to the surface of the meat or poultry as part of a cure mixture.


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## wade (May 16, 2020)

An interesting thread. I still pop in here from time to time however I now run a similar meat smoking forum based in the UK.
Quite a lot of confusing advice in this thread and also some misleading comments



daveomak said:


> The amount of cure, whether #1 or #2, depends on the length of time the meat is susceptible to botulism...
> Dried meats are susceptible, while they are hanging for months, due to other bacteria consuming the oxygen...  The outside of the meat slows, reduces or eliminates oxygen permeation into the meat...
> Friendly bacteria will still multiply and convert the nitrate to nitrite to continue protection...
> Cure#1 can be added in stages... 150 Ppm now, add more in a week and again later....





SmokinEdge said:


> As I understand, the 625ppm is safe for dried sausage because,,,, nitrite converts to nitric oxide. That’s how the curing takes place. It’s the nitric oxide that cures the meat and kills botulism. So when using nitrate in dried sausage and salumi, over time the nitrate converts to nitrite, then to nitric oxide, as such continued botulism control is maintained through out the drying process. At the end of that long process, most of the nitrite has converted to NO (nitric oxide) and is safe to consume.
> The same thing is happening in brine with maximum levels of nitrite. Brine time is shorter, uptake is less than the brine, and by the time the product is processed and the consumer takes it home, sufficient nitrite (NO2) has converted to nitric oxide (NO) and is safe to consume. Nitrite uptake (NO2) safety levels are set at 200 ppm in the food, but again as I understand, those levels in the meat will continue to drop over time, plus cooking above 130* further breaks down the nitrite.



The ongoing control of microorganisms in air dried meat and sausage is not all about the presence of Nitrite. Once cured, the ongoing protection is achieved through a combination of the removal of water (dehydration) and the binding of remaining water using the salts and sugars in the cure (reducing the water activity - aw). I know that you have a particular sensitivity when it comes to discussing botulinum toxin Dave, however when curing and air drying meat and dry sausage, once you have taken the aw below 0.965 the botulinum spores remain dormant and are unable to produce toxin. The acidity of the meat also plays a major role in managing the Botulinum toxin production as the Botulinum toxin is also inhibited when the pH of the sausage falls below 5.6 - as many dried sausage recipes produce - especially the fermented sausage.
Either alone, or in combination, the reduced water activity and the acidity of the sausage provide the same protection as does the application of nitrate/nitrite during the initial period of curing/drying.

When talking about sausage though it is important to differentiate between the "wet" sausages (e.g. frankfurters) which would have a final aw above 0.965 and the "dry" sausage (e.g. salamis) that will have an aw comfortably below this level. Air dried whole meat products (e.g. Parma ham) will be below this aw level too.

A couple of interesting articles:








						Effect of water activity and pH on growth and toxin production by Clostridium botulinum type G.
					

The combined effect of water activity (aw) and pH on growth and toxin production by Clostridium botulinum type G strain 89 was investigated. The minimum aw at which growth and toxin formation occurred was 0.965, for media in which the pH was adjusted ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





			http://www.equinlab.com/pdf_/Influencia%20de%20la%20actividad%20de%20agua%20(aw)%20en%20productos%20carnicos.pdf
		




daveomak said:


> There is a difference in regulations for sausage and whole muscle meat....
> You CAN'T add more cure to a sausage...  It is already mixed into the meat...
> It's whole muscle that needs subsequent additions....
> 
> ...



I am not quite sure that I understand the purpose of this information in the context of this post Dave. This thread is about the amounts of cure in sausage/salami but you seem to have added some confusion by going into some depth about the different topic of curing larger pieces of air dried meat. Also in your first post in this thread you appear to be recommending that 

 indaswamp
 should apply progressive amounts of cure when making his smoked sausage but later you emphasise that this should definitely not be done when making sausage (?). 
As your quote from the FSA Handbook says, "For large pieces of meat, the curing ingredients must be rubbed on the surface several times* during the curing period*". My understand is that this is more to reduce the maximum concentration of salt and nitrite/nitrate that any part of the meat is exposed to at any given time as this can adversely affect the structure of the meat. The total cure is therefore achieved by applying the cure in stages and as it is absorbed into the meat mass the concentration at the surface reduces, so more of the cure can then be applied.  Once the curing period has completed no more cure is then added. During subsequent storage/maturation the bacterial control is maintained initially by the breakdown of the Nitrate to Nitrite and later through the the resulting low water activity within the meat.



SmokinEdge said:


> Understood.
> Pops has talked about, at some length, how his dad‘s cure was weaker, took longer to cure, but that imparted more flavor and tenderness to the product. NYS tested his brine monthly and found it to be on the low end, but acceptable cure levels.
> Additionally, member here by the name of Wade, had some independent lab test ran on full strength brine vs. Pops brine, and in fact the stronger brine imparted a vast amount more nitrite uptake than the weaker brine.
> I understand total weight to cure. That’s just not how most people apply brine. Pops as a good example. I have never seen a specified meat weight to the 1gallon of brine. Just what it will cover, and if it’s short, simply cut the recipe in half, make another half gallon and cover it. That method is widely accepted here on SMF and is more cavalier than hard numbers.
> I tend to prefer the EQ method where salt, sugar and cure are applied per total weight of product + Brine weight.





daveomak said:


> I know of Wade's test...  The thing he didn't understand is "take up" described by the FSIS is.....  take up = quantity injected....   not natural "suck up" as different cuts of meat adsorb liquid at different rates and quantities....   "take up" is a weighed amount measured by the processors after injection by their needle injectors....   His tests show the different amounts per muscle group...   I know of that as I worked for a meat processor for a period of time.....



I know that we had some interesting debate on this at the time Dave - and you know well that this had nothing to do with any confusion between the definition of take up or pumping
The thread was initially designed to test the methodology that was being suggested by another forum member at  that time - who was recommending that an immersion brine should be made up at 10x strength (as you would do with an injection brine) and then used as an immersion cure. His method relied on the assumed that as the meat would take up approximately 10% of its own weight in brine that the resulting nitrite in the meat would only be 10% of the brine strength. 
In addition there was some discussion at the time in the forum as to the perceived relative low cure concentration present in Pops brine.

The experiment and lab testing confirmed the following.
Although we talk about "ingoing" nitrite in mg/Kg, it is expected that the residual nitrite in the meat will actually be less than this - as not all will be absorbed and some will be broken down. With the 10x brine being used for immersion the residual Nitrite in both types of meat ended up over 4x that of the permitted ingoing amounts - which invalidated that particular method.

It also showed that we should also not take everything we read as gospel - even government publications. The experiment (posted in a separate thread as I recall) also showed that the skin also took up / absorbed cure during immersion curing - in contradiction with what was stated in the Handbook. I took this up directly up with the FSIS at the time and was told that they are not surprised by my findings. It appears that the Handbook was pieced together from the best information available at the time, however the origins of much of its contents have been lost to history. He confirmed that much of the background work for this book is now unverifiable and, the fact that the latest revision of it was in 1995 means that it is not a publication that is regularly reviewed. If I recall Dave, I passed you the contact details of the FSIS inspector at the time so that you could confirm this for yourself.


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## daveomak (May 16, 2020)

wade said:


> An interesting thread. I still pop in here from time to time however I now run a similar meat smoking forum based in the UK.



Hey Wade, morning....  Post the forum you run so we can take a look.....


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## daveomak (May 19, 2020)

I guess 

 wade
 doesn't want us to view his forum.....


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