# Using a brine to cure meat  ????



## daveomak (Mar 7, 2011)

Some of the brining recipes are confusing to me. If I had a better understanding of the process I would feel less like an idiot.

My hypothetical situation. I have a 5# hunk of meat and I want to make 2 pints = 2# of water brine/cure.

Understanding equilibrium and why it works, my thought is to make the brine/cure based on 7# of product. 5# meat + 2# water.

That being said could I inject part of the brine in the meat and use the rest of the brine on the outside. Put in cooler for required days etc.

If my thinking is incorrect, where did I go wrong?


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## Bearcarver (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveOmak said:


> Some of the brining recipes are confusing to me. If I had a better understanding of the process I would feel less like an idiot.
> 
> My hypothetical situation. I have a 5# hunk of meat and I want to make 2 pints = 2# of water brine/cure.
> 
> ...


Dave,

I haven't brined cured anything yet, and haven't studied it.

There are a lot of guys who can help you on this.

Pops is big on brine curing, if you want to PM him.

Bear


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## forluvofsmoke (Mar 7, 2011)

In my experiences with brine/curing with Tender Quick, the weight of the meat isn't as important as the volume of water used to submerge the meat. The concentration of cure in the water is where your measurements should be focused on. If bagging the meat for the brine/cure, I've actually used very close to your amounts listed, and have had nothing short of excellent results. If using a container, then you obviously need more brine/cure solution, but I've done it both ways. For the sake of being able to using less spices and cure, I prefer bagging, although the risk of leakage from handling is always on my mind.

Without digging up a bag of TQ, and if memory serves me correctly, the recommended amount of TQ is 1 to 4 ratio, or 20% by volume. I think the bag reads 1 cup TQ to 4 cups water. I haven't injected my brine/cure solutions (yet), but opt for a longer cure with external absorption only. It's a textural thing for me I guess...the injection site can cause some tearing of the meat fibers from the fluid entering into the meat if injected too quickly, and can be noticed when slicing or eating...a slightly mushy area when chewing and/or visibly separated muscle fibers. Just a preference thing for me.

A few reasons I can think of for injection of brine cure (other than pumping pickle for ham) would be for relatively large cuts of meat which would not cure in reasonably safe time periods (which is why pumping pickle is used for hams), or if you just wanted a quicker cure and there's nothing wrong with doing it for that reason, either, as that's a personal choice.

I'm just the opposite of Bearcarver...I know he's used injected cures with a dry cure applied externally. I brine/cure everything I've home-cured thus far.

Anyway, my take...hope it helps you out. Good luck on the upcoming cure projects!

Eric


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## Dutch (Mar 7, 2011)

Way back when the family operated two large smokehouses, we would do a combination of pumping the cure into large cuts of meats (hams, shoulder,  bacon and loins) then they soaked in the pickle for 3-7 days depending on the cut.  Anything else that was cured was just placed into the pickle to soak for 24 hours to several days and then in to the smokehouse with a combination of apple and cherry wood.


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## mballi3011 (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm with Eric on this one and you need to worry about the amount of water in your brine for how much cure to use. Just make sure that you mix your cure into the water and then inject some of the cure into the meat. Then you can soak the meat in the brine for the needed days.


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## cowgirl (Mar 7, 2011)

Good post Eric. :)

I both dry cure and brine cure meats... thicker hunks of meats I pump.

Dutch.. brings back good memories of my childhood too. :)


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## pops6927 (Mar 8, 2011)

According to the 1 lb. bag of DQ Cure #1, you use 24 lbs. of curing salt to 100 gallons of water for a curing pickle.  This would be the maximum amount you'd use.

Reduce that by 100 to 1 gallon, it would be .24 of a lb. to 1 gallon of water, or approx. 4 ounces of cure #!.

I use approx. 1 tablespoon to 1 gallon of water.  A level tablespoon is .8 of an ounce.  A rounded tablespoon is approx. 1 ounce, or ¼ the maximum allowed.  And, I find this sufficient to pickle any pork or beef or poultry I need to do.  I will allow more time for it to cure, just from my dad's instruction on how long to let it cure; 2-3 days for poultry, 7 - 10 days for half-butts (buckboard) or bellies, 2 weeks for picnics once pumped, 3-4 weeks for whole hams once pumped.  I've never tried it with less times, simply because the cost of the product is too valuable on my limited income and unlimited (so it seems, lol!) medical bills.  But, it produces a nicely cured product without the need to soak or freshen it to get rid of unnecessary salt (and I've limited the amount of salt I add also).

As for the amount of brine, your proportion of curing salt to water is the important ratio, and just use whatever amount of brine necessary to cover the product.  You can pickle 1 ham in 1 gallon of water/curing salt or 100 gallons of water/curing salt, it doesn't matter, as long as it's proportioned correctly per gallon.  Of course, you add more ingredients in salts and sugars, etc. to enhance the bouquet of flavors in your pickle.

Again, my dad's theory was that a mild curing brine for a longer period of time made the product more tender and flavorful instead of a shorter time, more concentrated cure.  He sold hundreds of thousands of product over 45 years in business, and his customers readily agreed!


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## Bearcarver (Mar 9, 2011)

Pops6927 said:


> According to the 1 lb. bag of DQ Cure #1, you use 24 lbs. of curing salt to 100 gallons of water for a curing pickle.  This would be the maximum amount you'd use.
> 
> Reduce that by 100 to 1 gallon, it would be .24 of a lb. to 1 gallon of water, or approx. 4 ounces of cure #!.
> 
> ...


Thanks Pops!

This is an excellent post!

I just put it on the front page of my "How To" Notes!!!!

Bear


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## biggeorge50 (Mar 9, 2011)

I can verify that Pops' dad's hams and bacons were as good as they got.  The store was called Fassett's and the hams and bacon were cob smoked.  If my father couldn't get ham and bacon from Fassett's, we went without.  The first store-bought ham I had was a huge disappointment - not even the same animal.


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## daveomak (Mar 9, 2011)

Pops6927, I am so glad you answered this post. From everything I have read here, you are the go-to-guy and your post reinforces those thoughts. Great answer. Like Bear, that post is going in my files. Thanks.

I wrote to Customer Service  <[email protected]>  

 "I purchased instacure #1 and I want to make a liquid brine." (shortened form of question) This is their reply,  "For making a brine with the Instacure, you would use 3 oz. to every gallon of water.  It doesn't matter what size the meat is as long as the meat is completely covered by the brine."

For those of you who are like me and question everything, the folks on this site know everything and can be trusted.

Please take no offense that I asked the source also.

Now I know my math on the amount of cure to wet brine meat was "fuzzy". Everyday you learn something don't count toward your days on earth.

Keep on learning. I am. Dave


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## justpassingthru (Mar 9, 2011)

Dave,

Thank you for this thread, the depth of knowledge here is phenomenal, I read so much other 'stuff' that isn't tried and tested and it leaves me wondering and confused.

Thank you Pops, your response is copied and filed in my bringing folder, and to have one of your dad's customer validate his process, ...fantastic!

And Dave I was taught pretty much the same thing as a young carpenter's apprentice, an old journeyman said, "Everyday that you don't learn something new is a wasted day," I have followed his advice even if it's just a new word to add to  my vocabulary.  I'm 62 years old and I have to keep reminding myself of that, people are shocked when I tell them my age, they assume that I'm in my late 40's early 50's, I attribute part of that to me following his sage advice, it keeps me thinking like I'm young.

Gene


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## daveomak (Mar 9, 2011)

JustPassingThru said:


> Dave,
> 
> Thank you for this thread, the depth of knowledge here is phenomenal, I read so much other 'stuff' that isn't tried and tested and it leaves me wondering and confused.
> 
> ...


Gene, We are in the same camp. I am 62 also. It must be a generational thing to keep learning. This forum may add years just from the learning aspect not to mention the great food.


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## Bearcarver (Mar 9, 2011)

Sure is a lot of 62 year old guys around here !!!!

It's good there are younger guys like Pops around to help us!!!   
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





62 year old Bear


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## DanMcG (Mar 9, 2011)

DaveOmak said:


> That being said could I inject part of the brine in the meat and use the rest of the brine on the outside. Put in cooler for required days etc.
> 
> If my thinking is incorrect, where did I go wrong?


I hate to throw a wrench into the mix, but a piece of meat in an immersion brine is not the same as using a pumped and immersed recipe.

Take some time and read a few pages from the USDA's Inspectors' Calulations hand book. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf  

It will explain how to calculate what you want and be safe. Good luck and enjoy it


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## chefrob (Mar 9, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> I hate to throw a wrench into the mix, but a piece of meat in an immersion brine is not the same as using a pumped and immersed recipe.
> 
> Take some time and read a few pages from the USDA's Inspectors' Calulations hand book. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf
> 
> It will explain how to calculate what you want and be safe. Good luck and enjoy it


thx for the wrench Dan.........i would have thought you could have used the same.


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## daveomak (Mar 10, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> I hate to throw a wrench into the mix, but a piece of meat in an immersion brine is not the same as using a pumped and immersed recipe.
> 
> Take some time and read a few pages from the USDA's Inspectors' Calulations hand book. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf
> 
> It will explain how to calculate what you want and be safe. Good luck and enjoy it


Dan, Thanks, I need all the wrenches in my tool box I can get.
 


Bearcarver said:


> Sure is a lot of 62 year old guys around here !!!!
> 
> It's good there are younger guys like Pops around to help us!!!
> 
> ...


Bear,  I knew we were twins. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	









   
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





    Mom always liked you best.


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## pops6927 (Mar 10, 2011)

That was a nice, light, easy read, thank you for sharing it!  lol! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Definitely a reference to go by.  We used a 10% pump on all the hams and shoulders, immersion only on bellies.  But, that's only another good reason to use less than the maximum amount of ppm pickle.


DanMcG said:


> I hate to throw a wrench into the mix, but a piece of meat in an immersion brine is not the same as using a pumped and immersed recipe.
> 
> Take some time and read a few pages from the USDA's Inspectors' Calulations hand book. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf
> 
> It will explain how to calculate what you want and be safe. Good luck and enjoy it




BTW, turning 60 on 03/22 this year, lol!


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## pops6927 (Mar 10, 2011)

Thank you so much for the compliment!  They were truly unique and delicious!


biggeorge50 said:


> I can verify that Pops' dad's hams and bacons were as good as they got.  The store was called Fassett's and the hams and bacon were cob smoked.  If my father couldn't get ham and bacon from Fassett's, we went without.  The first store-bought ham I had was a huge disappointment - not even the same animal.


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## venture (Mar 10, 2011)

Dang!  I always thought Pops was an old guy.  Now I see that he and the rest of you are just young'ns!

Good luck and good smoking!


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## Bearcarver (Mar 11, 2011)

Venture said:


> Dang!  I always thought Pops was an old guy.  Now I see that he and the rest of you are just young'ns!
> 
> Good luck and good smoking!


LOL----Kinda like the biggest guy on the football team---You remember him---The guy they called "Tiny".

Bear


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## senator (Aug 6, 2011)

Pops6927 said:


> According to the 1 lb. bag of DQ Cure #1, you use 24 lbs. of curing salt to 100 gallons of water for a curing pickle.  This would be the maximum amount you'd use.
> 
> Reduce that by 100 to 1 gallon, it would be .24 of a lb. to 1 gallon of water, or approx. 4 ounces of cure #!.
> 
> ...


I was thinking how much meat would you use for this cure?

I'm new to this, and I'm pretty interested in this brine. I wanted to figure out the percentage of nitrites in this cure.

I came up with ~300ppm.

Formula: 

instacure*percentage nitrite*1M / (weight water + weight salt + weight sugar) = wet brine nitrite ppm

0.05lb*6.25%*1000000 / (8.3453lb +1.5lb) = 317.4ppm

Does this mean that the meat does not reach the same ppm nitrite concentration as the cure?

Reading through http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf the USDA says it takes weeks for the meat in the brine to reach equilibrium (i.e. reach the same concentration  nitrite as the brine). Does anyone have a feel for how quickly meat takes up the cure?

If you add the weight of the meat into the formula it changes the ppm (and thus equilibrium point).

If I use this amount of cure for 5lbs of meat, and cured until it reach equilibrium (meat has same concentration of everything as brine), then we would end up at:

instacure*percentage nitrite*1M / (weight water + weight salt + weight sugar + weight meat) = brine & meat nitrite ppm

0.05lb*6.25%*1000000 / (8.3453lb +1.5lb + 5lb) = 210ppm

So I'm guessing most of the time we don't reach equilibrium... But how long should I cure then?

Also, from the above the wet cure to meat ratio is important (lots of cure + tiny amount of meat = more nitrites in meat vs lots of meat + tiny amount of cure = not much nitrites in meat).

Is my logic right here or am I missing something critical?


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## meateater (Aug 7, 2011)

That's to much math for me.


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## SmokinAl (Aug 7, 2011)

All I can say is I have used Pops cure a number of times. If your unsure how long to brine a particular piece of meat just PM him & he will help you out.


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## daveomak (Aug 7, 2011)

DaveOmak said:


> Pops6927, I am so glad you answered this post. From everything I have read here, you are the go-to-guy and your post reinforces those thoughts.
> I wrote to Customer Service  <[email protected]>
> _  "I purchased instacure #1 and I want to make a liquid brine." (shortened form of question) This is their reply,  "For making a brine with the Instacure, you would use 3 oz. to every gallon of water.  It doesn't matter what size the meat is as long as the meat is completely covered by the brine."_
> 
> ...


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## pops6927 (Aug 8, 2011)

I also received this PM:

"Pops,

Would you be able to post the brine times for different cuts of meat & poultry using your brine/cure. I think it would be very helpful for all the folks including myself who use your recipe."

I have to refer to the reference I have trusted since childhood, that of my late father, Carl E. Fassett.  I have no direct idea of the depth of his knowledge into the scientific facts of brining meat.  I do know that he was well-schooled and learned by his meat inspectors and contacts he developed with Cornell University personnel who he communicated with on a consistent basis over the years on the art and science of wet brining. 

He had a hand-drawn chart in his ingredient book on brining times.  Although I cannot remember all of it precisely, I do remember the primary times correctly enough to be able to recite them accurately.  I know he got some of them at least from his contacts and inspectors.

hams, pumped - 3 - 6 wk

bellies 2 - 5 wk

picnics, pumped - 2 - 4 wk

bostons, pumped - 2 - 4 wk

half bostons - 2 - 4 wk

hocks, jowls, parts - 2 - 4 wk

chickens - 4 - 7 dy

turkeys - 1 - 2 wk

corned beef - 7 - 14 dy

There were several other entries for lesser pickled meats (ducks, goose, lamb, beef plate, brisket, etc.) that were seasonal or occasional, but they followed approximately the same timelines.

Sometimes the times would have to be 'stretched' in the case of custom curing for farmers simply because of the volume they did they couldn't process the product fast enough or balance it with the retail production, but in general stayed within those guidelines.  For example, bellies he wanted in the brine for at least 21 days if at all possible; however, he could pull them at 14 days and they would be sufficiently cured.  Now, I don't know if it had anything to do with 'equilibrium' but it seems like it would be a logical explanation that would be the case.

Now, in my own experience with the curing process I am finding that those times can be shortened a bit and still have a sufficiently cured product; whether it is reaching equilibrium or not I could not tell you.  However, for tried and trusted times for my own reference I refer to the above based on working for him for many years.


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## SmokinAl (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks Pops!


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## senator (Aug 14, 2011)

thanks Pops and Daveomak.

I have 2x1.1lbs pieces of pork bellies curing in 1/2 gallon of pops brine above. They are skin / rind on.

The bellie pieces have been in 6 days so far, I'm still not confident on how long to leave them in.

I read through http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/making-brine

but that brine is significantly saltier than pops recipe, so the timings there should be ignored.

From your post Pops I think they need another 7 days, so I won't be smoking until next weekend!


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