# Boiling water?



## crclass (Aug 15, 2015)

So science tells me that water boils at 210°~.so if I am smoking my but at 225° wouldnt the water in the pan justl boil away? At that point am I steaming or smoking?


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## crankybuzzard (Aug 15, 2015)

Yep, it'll boil away.  Now, are you steaming?   No, not really, but what you are doing is placing a heat sink in the cooking chamber that provides a known constant temperature which will assist in you maintaining the 225 you want.  Also, the water, once hot, will assist in getting the pit back up to temp after opening the door/lid to check on things.  

In order to steam your meat, it would take a lot of water boiling in a concentrated area.   

The above are my thoughts and others may have differing views.  :biggrin:


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## cal1956 (Aug 15, 2015)

the only time I use the water pan in mine is when I have a lot of meat in the smoker , it helps prevent grease fires


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## dcarch (Aug 15, 2015)

First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F. Water can only boil at 212F plus additional BTUs (known as *Enthalpy of vaporization*).

Second, steam is not visible. What you can see is actually just plain water droplets, ie water droplets condensed from steam.

Third, water does not have a good ability to help heat recovery because water cannot be hotter than 212F inside a smoker. One lb of water can give you only one BTU per one degree change.

Any time you have moisture in air, you are "steaming". In a cooker, you are limited to 212F, in a pressure cooker you will be steaming at 250F, and in a combi oven, higher is possible, and in an autoclave, even higher.

dcarch


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## cal1956 (Aug 15, 2015)

dcarch said:


> First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F. Water can only boil at 212F plus additional BTUs (known as *Enthalpy of vaporization*).
> 
> Second, steam is not visible. What you can see is actually just plain water droplets, ie water droplets condensed from steam.
> 
> ...


well lets be "precise" shall we ..... the temperature that water boils at DEPENDS ON ALTITUDE 

 for example  i live at an altitude of 6500 feet above mean sea level which means that water BOILS AT 199-200 DEGREES  NOT 212 DEGREES

steam IS visible   WATER VAPOR IS NOT

water CAN be much hotter than 212 degrees


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## dcarch (Aug 15, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> well lets be "precise" shall we ..... the temperature that water boils at DEPENDS ON ALTITUDE
> 
> for example  i live at an altitude of 6500 feet above mean sea level which means that water BOILS AT 199-200 DEGREES  NOT 212 DEGREES
> 
> ...


When we discuss common meaning of everyday experiences, we typically mean normal conditions.

Water boils at 212F under normal conditions, which also mean at one atmospheric pressure. 

You are correct, under *very abnormal *conditions, water can "super heat" even under one atmospheric pressure. 

According to WiKi's definition:

"*Steam*  is water  in the gas  phase, which is formed when water boils. *Steam is invisible*; however, "steam" incorrectly often refers to the visible mist  or aerosol  of water droplets formed as this water vapor  condenses"

dcarch


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## cal1956 (Aug 15, 2015)

steam is water in transition from liquid to vapor and is  visible .....


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## dcarch (Aug 15, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> steam is water in transition from liquid to vapor and is  visible .....


Well, you are free to disagree with WIKI, and here is another you can disagree with, and there are lots more:

"When you boil water it turns into gas. It's really water gas but it's usually called steam. Water gas *(steam) is actually invisible* just like a lot of other gases. The visible vapour you can see is really lots of very small water droplets that are condensing out of the steam as it cools."

dcarch


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 15, 2015)

"First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F."

I am not sure I understand your statement.


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## dcarch (Aug 15, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> "First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F."
> 
> I am not sure I understand your statement.


If you bring water all the way to just at 212F and stop right there, water will not boil. 

Boiling is vaporization. You must add additional BTUs to get water to start boiling. 

For one lb of water to boil away, you need to supply 970.4 BTUs after water has reached 212F (known as Heat of vaporization)

dcarch


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 15, 2015)

Water starts boiling at 212. You do need additional heat to keep the process going, but temperature stays at 212 (within measurable precision).


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## cedar eater (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature. It will expand in volume by about 1500% as it passes into a gaseous state. This expansion absorbs heat from the ambient gaseous medium (smokey air). Attempting to raise the temperature of liquid water above the boiling point speeds the rate of vaporization through the mechanism known as boiling, which is visibly more vigorous than simply seeing vapor float off the top. Using a water pan in a chamber that is above the boiling point (for a given ambient pressure) will cause the water to boil, but not necessarily vigorously, which is why we use the water pan. The water in the pan doesn't boil rapidly in ambient conditions suitable for slowly cooking meat, but the heat absorbing process of vaporization dampens the oscillations of temperature when heat is being controlled by means that are not using enough other dampening technology. And I don't mean dampen as in "make wetter", although that is actually what happens. I mean dampen as in "reduce the rate of change and the amplitude of oscillations." If you've got a smart enough controller, you will have no need for a water pan, because the controller will anticipate the achievement of its goal and slow its approach to prevent or minimize overshoot.


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## GaryHibbert (Aug 16, 2015)

Cedar Eater said:


> Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature. It will expand in volume by about 1500% as it passes into a gaseous state. This expansion absorbs heat from the ambient gaseous medium (smokey air). Attempting to raise the temperature of liquid water above the boiling point speeds the rate of vaporization through the mechanism known as boiling, which is visibly more vigorous than simply seeing vapor float off the top. Using a water pan in a chamber that is above the boiling point (for a given ambient pressure) will cause the water to boil, but not necessarily vigorously, which is why we use the water pan. The water in the pan doesn't boil rapidly in ambient conditions suitable for slowly cooking meat, but the heat absorbing process of vaporization dampens the oscillations of temperature when heat is being controlled by means that are not using enough other dampening technology. And I don't mean dampen as in "make wetter", although that is actually what happens. I mean dampen as in "reduce the rate of change and the amplitude of oscillations." If you've got a smart enough controller, you will have no need for a water pan, because the controller will anticipate the achievement of its goal and slow its approach to prevent or minimize overshoot.


OK.  I THINK I understood what you just said.  Maybe.  Probably not.  LOL

Gary


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## dcarch (Aug 16, 2015)

Cedar Eater said:


> Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature.
> 
> Evaporation will not happen if air relative humidity is 100%.
> 
> ...


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## cedar eater (Aug 16, 2015)

dcarch said:


>


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## floridasteve (Aug 16, 2015)

Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.


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## daveomak (Aug 16, 2015)

crclass said:


> So science tells me that water boils at 210°~.so if I am smoking my but at 225° wouldnt the water in the pan justl boil away? At that point am I steaming or smoking?




crclass....  morning.....  you can start another thread to get your question answered clearly....    Seems your thread has been ..:ahijack:


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## smokin phil (Aug 16, 2015)

FloridaSteve said:


> Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.



It's just the "water pan full of water or not"  debate. Do what you like, just like a recipe. Make it your own. I've done both, I'll do both again.


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## dcarch (Aug 16, 2015)

FloridaSteve said:


> Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.


Would you be kind enough to tell us which part of the discussion is not on topic and irrelevant to the science of smoking?

I will agree with you if you feel that every point discussed so far is already 100% understood by 100% of the members.

Thanks.

dcarch


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## floridasteve (Aug 16, 2015)

I didn't say it was off target, I said I didn't see any value to it.  I can appreciate, and have read with interest in the past, a discussion about using or not using a water pan.  But a discussion of the science of boiling water is of no interest.

Anyway, should have just gone on to another thread and kept my mouth shut.  Just because it's of no value to me, doesn't mean it is of no interest to everyone.  I appoligise for the inappropriate comment.


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## jp61 (Aug 16, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> steam IS visible   WATER VAPOR IS NOT


I'd bet, that the guy who made local news years ago for getting his hand cut off by high pressure steam while looking for a leak would disagree with your statements.


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## dcarch (Aug 17, 2015)

FloridaSteve said:


> I didn't say it was off target, I said I didn't see any value to it. I can appreciate, and have read with interest in the past, a discussion about using or not using a water pan. But a discussion of the science of boiling water is of no interest.
> 
> Anyway, should have just gone on to another thread and kept my mouth shut. Just because it's of no value to me, doesn't mean it is of no interest to everyone. I appoligise for the inappropriate comment.


No need to apologize. We are all here to exchange, share and learn.

After studying water's very strange thermal behaviors, that led me to design and built my ultra sonic humidifier for my smoker. I can control humidity independently of temperature.

dcarch


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## jlcnuke (Aug 17, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> steam is water in transition from liquid to vapor and is  visible .....





dcarch said:


> Well, you are free to disagree with WIKI, and here is another you can disagree with, and there are lots more:
> 
> "When you boil water it turns into gas. It's really water gas but it's usually called steam. Water gas *(steam) is actually invisible* just like a lot of other gases. The visible vapour you can see is really lots of very small water droplets that are condensing out of the steam as it cools."
> 
> dcarch


/begin nerd talk

Definitions of steam include both pure water vapor as wells as water vapor mixed with liquid water droplets (feel free to google "steam definition" if you don't believe me though..). The latter is visible, the former is not. While from an engineering or industrial standpoint the former definition is correct and preferred, for "layman" use the latter is the common understanding as most people encounter "boiling water steam" or "shower steam" etc and tend not to encounter super-heated steam. The liquid water droplets (either carryover or condensed water vapor) is what makes steam visible as gaseous water vapor doesn't have sufficient density to be visible in a standard environment.

/end nerd talk


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## cats49er (Aug 18, 2015)

How many of ya'll went to M.I.T.?  I don't think I'll use a water pan if it has to be this technical.  lol


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## cal1956 (Aug 18, 2015)

lol,,,haha


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## dcarch (Aug 18, 2015)

Cats49er said:


> How many of ya'll went to M.I.T.?  I don't think I'll use a water pan if it has to be this technical.  lol


It is actually very simple to figure out what do you gain if you keep i gallon of water in you smoker. Information is simple to get, and math is simple to figure out.

With one gallon of water in your smoker: 

If your objective is to keep your interior temperature above 212F, the water will fight your attempts because water does not want you to go above 212F. When you see your gallon of water has been boiled away, you would have wasted about 7800 BTUs of heat to sustain temperature

If you left your smoker door open too long and temperature drops below 212F, the water will help you to recover by giving you only 16 BTU for every degree F increase, until the temperature gets to 212F, then the water will fight you to get any higher.

Meanwhile your 1,800 watt heater can give you 6,120 BTUs/hour.

It is a thousand times more complicated to come up with the best rub for your ribs.

dcarch


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## cal1956 (Aug 18, 2015)

only took 3 tries to get my rub right ........been using it for over 30 years


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## venture (Aug 18, 2015)

I choose not to partake in much of the discussion here.

In an offset smoker, a small loaf pan of water next to the entrance of the firebox into the pit can be used to partially regulate heat spikes in the pit.  Also, some people like a LITTLE extra moisture in the pit.

As to boiling water, this chart might be helpful:

http://whatscookingamerica.net/boilpoint.htm

Good luck and good smoking.


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## cedar eater (Aug 18, 2015)

I only put four cups of water in my smoker. I can't imagine why someone would use more. I put it in a large, flat, shallow pan to maximize the pan/water surface area and the air/water surface area. This heats the water faster and releases heat from the water faster. The water pan is a my drip pan and I don't use a PID controller, but I do use infinite switches (similar to a dimmer switch). I set the switch to just a little higher than I think will be necessary. This brings the temperature up slower, while the smoke is doing its thing.


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## dcarch (Aug 18, 2015)

Venture said:


> ---------------------
> 
> As to boiling water, this chart might be helpful:
> 
> ...


There are statements in that article that is not true.

For instance, adding things in water does not always increase volume.  Try adding sugar or salt, you will see that it may not increase volume. (until it can't dissolve anymore)

Water! water! water! World's most common yet strange substance. So much to learn, especially if you are into cooking.

dcarch


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## cal1956 (Aug 19, 2015)

For instance, adding things in water does not always increase volume.  Try adding sugar or salt, you will see that it may not increase volume. (until it can't dissolve anymore

it does so increase volume !!!! the amount might be small but the volume in the container the water in HAS to increase , this is true even if you dissolve oxygen in the water

anytime something ( anything)  is added the volume MUST increase


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## dcarch (Aug 19, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> For instance, adding things in water does not always increase volume.  Try adding sugar or salt, you will see that it may not increase volume. (until it can't dissolve anymore
> 
> it does so increase volume !!!! the amount might be small but the volume in the container the water in HAS to increase , this is true even if you dissolve oxygen in the water
> 
> anytime something ( anything)  is added the volume MUST increase


The best explanation:

_"Volumes don't always add. If you had a barrel of BBs and a barrel of baseballs would you get two barrels full of stuff if you poured the BBs into the baseballs? Of course not since the BBs could fit in between the baseballs. "_

As long as you don't exceed the solubility of water (saturation) you will find the volume of water remain the same. Not very logical, but that's chemistry, chem mystery. :-)

However, I have to point out this, it is possible that water volume may increase very slightly, that's another crazy personality of water.

When you add salt in water, temperature drops (making ice cream the old way). Everything else shrinks when cooled, except water. That's why ice is lighter than liquid water.

As I said, water is crazy. 

dcarch


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 19, 2015)

Why would you dump back bacon or baby back ribs in a barrel of baseballs?


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## dcarch (Aug 19, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> Why would you dump back bacon or baby back ribs in a barrel of baseballs?


Because according to rules,  a spitball is illegal, and no other foreign substance is allowed on the baseball.

There is no rule against bacon grease, and bacon is not foreign, it is made in the USA. 








dcarch


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## atomicsmoke (Aug 19, 2015)

dcarch said:


> Because according to rules,  a spitball is illegal, and no other foreign substance is allowed on the baseball.
> 
> There is no rule against bacon grease, and bacon is not foreign, it is made in the USA.
> 
> ...


Makes sense now.


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## cedar eater (Aug 19, 2015)

cal1956 said:


> it does so increase volume !!!! the amount might be small but the volume in the container the water in HAS to increase , this is true even if you dissolve oxygen in the water
> anytime something ( anything)  is added the volume MUST increase


It depends on how much you increase the density of the resultant liquid. Adding sugar will increase the density. Sugar saturated water is heavier than pure water. Basically the sugar molecules can get closer together when they are dissolved in water than when they are in dry crystal form, and the water molecules can get closer together in the presence of sugar than they are in pure distilled water . If you can inspire the molecules to get closer together, you can increase the density without increasing the volume. The sugar decreases the amount that water molecules repel each other. Adding salt will decrease the density of the resultant liquid, but the volume will still be less than the combined volumes of the water and the dry salt for two reasons. You've removed the air between the salt crystals and the salt molecules are not aligning (repelling each other) as they were in the dry salt crystals.


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## dcarch (Aug 19, 2015)

Speaking of water is strange and salt in water:

You see here threads/posts all the time about the danger of working with electricity near water. 

The fact is, water is a good electric insulator. Water is a very poor electrical conductor. It is the salt or other impurities in water that make water conductive.

dcarch


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## daveomak (Aug 19, 2015)

:yeahthat:


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## phatbac (Aug 19, 2015)

For my water pan in my WSM i just cover it in foil with an air pocket for a heat shield and i maintain good temps and all i see is thin blue smoke!

Happy Smoking ( not steaming whether you can see it or not)

phatbac (Aaron)


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## cal1956 (Aug 19, 2015)

dcarch said:


> Speaking of water is strange and salt in water:
> 
> You see here threads/posts all the time about the danger of working with electricity near water.
> 
> ...


i'll just be damned ...for the  1st time  I agree with what you said  !!!!


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## ndwildbill (Aug 19, 2015)

Fill the water pan with sand...it won't boil at the temp my smoker gets to!


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## cats49er (Aug 19, 2015)

dcarch said:


> It is actually very simple to figure out what do you gain if you keep i gallon of water in you smoker. Information is simple to get, and math is simple to figure out.
> 
> With one gallon of water in your smoker:
> 
> ...


Nice work,I really do have a basic understanding BTU's and water. I was just Blowing Smoke.  LOL


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