# Injecting Pork Shoulders after 4hrs?



## flowercitysmoker

So after reading a few injections recipes, I tried it on a pork shoulder a couple of weeks ago. Actually did one with and one without to compare; all votes went to the injected ;) 

I started out by patting  rub on all sides but the 'top'.  I worked the needle around from the top before rubbing, never piercing the sides or bottom. I was nervous about piercing the muscle and 40-140*-in-4; I barely cleared it. So I looked around and saw mention of injecting after the meat has been smoking for 4 hours...

Can anyone share some insight or experiences? Is it feasible? Safe?


----------



## kielbasa kid

Why do you think that it would not "be safe"?  As for "4 hours"...what the internal?  Hours mean zip. You want to inject while the meat is raw and able to absorb IMHO; not when the flesh is contracting.  I only pierce top and sides.


----------



## meateater

Kielbasa Kid said:


> Why do you think that it would not "be safe"?  As for "4 hours"...what the internal?  Hours mean zip. You want to inject while the meat is raw and able to absorb IMHO; not when the flesh is contracting.  I only pierce top and sides.


I inject raw myself also, have so for years. Just be careful what you start, purists roam the place.


----------



## michael ark

Thaw your meat inject your meat .Let sit as long as you can stand it 12HR good 24HR better.Cook at 220F to 250 max.Just boil your needles if your scared.Injecting is a whole new avenues of flavors .Only you will limit your self.


----------



## flowercitysmoker

I've read in other threads and other forums that the meat needs to reach 140 on the outer inch or so within four hours in order to kill bacteria. But only so long as you don't pierce the muscle. If you either inject or probe before 4 hours, you risk pushing the surface bacteria deep into the meat. My last smoke, it took 5.5 hours for the Injected Butt to reach 140 internally:








I suppose that is the basis of my confusion... I've read that if you go low and slow, not to pierce the meat.  I've also read people injecting and probing from the start. I always have and never had a problem, but I would like to make sure I'm doing it right.


----------



## kielbasa kid

I've also read where you should never breathe the air, cross a busy street, look up while birds are flying and even, never get married.


----------



## chef jimmyj

The postings on Not Injecting Raw Meat, Only Piercing the meat after the Exterior has passed 140*F and the 140*F internal temp in 4 Hour Rule is based on USDA recommendations. Some of us, more or less, have agreed, to follow the USDA in our posts to keep the Inexperienced Smokers safe.

Yes if you wash a hunk of meat, rub it first with a Salty Rub and then Inject with more Salt and a Vinegary liquid or even simply Apple Juice, the chances of contaminating the interior of the meat is Extremely Low. BUT when it comes to Sausage, Fatties and Cured Meats, your Butt and your families Health is on the line, IF you don't follow the USDA Guide lines.

I can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE, that FOOD POISONING IS NO JOKE!. Seven days of spending most of my time on the Toilet with a Bucket in my hands and sleeping on the Bathroom Floor because I was TOO WEAK to walk, was the WORST Experience in my Life! And no the Antibiotics didn't help... Stick to the recommendations.

In my Sanitation and Safety ServSafe classes I told my students all the time, " Just because Grandma defrosted the Turkey on the counter for 40 years and nobody DIED, don't make it a good idea to KEEP doing it that way!"...JJ


----------



## alblancher

The "purists" sole purpose is to make sure everyone is aware of what can cause problems.  If we say. contrary to safety guidelines, that it is OK to inject meat prior to reaching temperatures then you will have un informed people injecting raw, unsafe marinades into large clods of meat and taking 14 to 18 hours to get to proper internal temperatures.   They may not get sick, but if they do then they will at least know why they got sick.

This is a public forum, a lot of people read it and it is our responsibility to make sure new smokers learn proper procedures.

Personally if I am going to inject a piece of meat I will bring the liquid to a boil prior to injecting and make sure the needle has been either boiled or wiped in alcohol.  I also only inject smaller cuts that will come up to internal temperatures in the proper time frame to insure its safety.  Larger cuts get injected after the surface temperatures reach 140 degrees

If you are going to break the rules I hope we at least give you enough information that you can follow the other procedures that reduce your risk.    Proper handling of the raw meat, clean utensils, reduce penetrations of the intact muscel, safe final temps

Contrary to popular perception the Purists are not food safety cops.  Just members of the forum that want to educate you on the proper techniques.  If you wish to deviate from that, fine, no problem on my end.  Just do me a favor and mention that you are doing something that may not be safe when you make a post.  That way a new reader will ask the proper questions and be taught the correct methods.

Al


----------



## kielbasa kid

Seven days of spending most of my time on the Toilet with a Bucket in my hands and sleeping on the Bathroom Floor because I was TOO WEAK to walk, was the WORST Experience in my Life!  

Are you sure it was food Jimmy? Sounds like my younger days, talking to God on the big white telephone.

Al & Jim:

If the clod is washed thoroughly in cold water to remove residue and

always refrigerated,

then marinated in a sealed freezer bag with vinegar (etc.) and

kept within a refrigerator until it is rubbed & injected with a clean hypo &

then sealed in a fresh bag and returned to the fridge prior to smoking.

Is there an obvious fly in the ointment?

I once worked in supermarket butcher areas and saw what I "saw", so I do not worry about my proceedure killing me. I saw the quarter come off the truck at the curb and be processed into the show case. I raised and slaughtered my own beef and small stock besides doing venison. I'm still not a vegetarian!!! 

Protection is in the cooking.

That's my proceedure. It isn't a perfect world and there is always the "X Factor". Yuh pays yuh money and yuh takes yuh chances.


----------



## chef jimmyj

Hey KK nice to hear you survived the Chimney rebuilt.

Yes, following the procedure you described for the Clod will be perfectly safe 99% of the time. I just think the inexperienced should be educated, can't help myself I'm a teacher, on what can happen the other 1% of the time.

If you or I Prayed to the Porcelain God for 7 days, that would have to have been a HELL OF A BENDER!...JJ


----------



## alblancher

As long as you remember that heat does not necessarily destroy the toxin

No sense in discussing the finer points.  If you say what you do is safe, then continue to use it.  I don't know enough to agree or disagree.  There is a procedure in the food code to have methods that fall outside of the standard reviewed and decided upon by the issuing agency.  I don't remember the term but I know some of the chefs on this forum have done it.

You mention seeing what you have seen working in a supermarket.  That is why it is important to make sure what we do is safe.  You don't know what you are getting either from the market or your backyard.   Do the right thing when you can and you will not compound any potential problems and tend to not add additional risk.

High concentrations of acid (vinegar) in your marinade may act as a bactericide for some stains but I am not making a generic statement that vinegar will kill all pathogenic bacteria, spores, viruses whatever without doing a bit of research.

Good Luck

I'm sure you will be fine and the food will come out delicious.

Al


----------



## kielbasa kid

As the great sage and philosopher Forrest Gump often said, "Stupid is as stupid does".  So we continue to do the best we can and we never throw caution to the wind. That last one isn't a gumpism.

Yup JJ. Today I am at ground level.  

I just thoroughly cleaned the smoker. It takes 30 minutes. I do it after every smoke. It's all part of the process. Some people don't bother.

Come to think of it; wouldn't a dirty, crusty, coated with grease smoker be a harbinger for bacteria and disease?

There! Now that's pushing the envelope for sickness and death but I don't ever remember the point being brought up here before.

Crud is macho. Crud is King. Crud rules.


----------



## meateater

alblancher said:


> The "purists" sole purpose is to make sure everyone is aware of what can cause problems.  If we say. contrary to safety guidelines, that it is OK   to inject meat prior to reaching temperatures then you will have un informed people injecting raw, unsafe marinades into large clods of meat and taking 14 to 18 hours "Only your opinion that's why I go from 40-140 in 4 hours" "  to get to proper internal temperatures.   They may not get sick, but if they do then they will at least know why they got sick.
> 
> This is a public forum, a lot of people read it and it is our responsibility to make sure new smokers learn proper procedures. And over responsibility is nothing to create an opinion over.
> 
> Personally if I am going to inject a piece of meat I will bring the liquid to a boil prior to injecting and make sure the needle has been either boiled or wiped in alcohol. Which I do as I stated in another post. I bring my brine to almost freezing before injecting.  I also only inject smaller cuts that will come up to internal temperatures in the proper time frame to insure its safety. So you inject???   Larger cuts get injected after the surface temperatures reach 140 degrees What's the difference between large and small cuts, poundage?
> 
> If you are going to break the rules "look like your doing a good job at it" I hope we at least give you enough information that you can follow the other procedures that reduce your risk.    Proper handling of the raw meat, clean utensils, reduce penetrations of the intact muscel, safe final temps
> 
> Contrary to popular perception the Purists are not food safety cops.  Just members of the forum that want to educate you on the proper techniques  your .  If you wish to deviate from that, fine, no problem on my end.  Just do me a favor and mention that you are doing something that may not be safe when you make a post.  That way a new reader will ask the proper questions and be taught the correct methods. Like your bacon cackulator
> 
> Al


----------



## alblancher

Meateater

If you get to 140 in 4 hours we all agree you can inject all you wish with basically any safe marinade you wish.

Not sure what you mean by over responsibility?  If you say that Purists shouldn't comment or clarify when potentially unsafe information is put on the forum then I respectfully disagree?

I would need to get a second opinion but "almost freezing" a marinade slows the growth of bacteria in the marinade but within a short period of time after injecting the marinade is at the meat's temperate and bacterial activity gets a kick start.  I know freezing is effective for Tric but to have any affect on bacteria and spores you need to freeze for long periods of time.

I inject chicken and small turkeys regularly before smoking.  I boil the injection, then run temps high enough to get the bird out of the danger zone as fast as possible.  I usually do not inject pork butt or brisket.  No need to, I like the flavor and moisture of the meat without injecting.

When I do large turkeys I will not inject until after the bird has been on the smoke for a while.  I will make a marinade of butter, garlic, soy sauce, salt, bring to a boil and inject to help moisten the breasts of the bird

Maybe you can point out how I am "breaking the rules"?  If I am please show me where I am making my mistake and I will correct my procedures.

Not sure how the "Bacon calculator" comes into a conversation about injecting.   A lot of the credit for the bacon calculator goes to the comments I received from other members of the forum that reviewed and edited it.

Thanks Meateater

Al


----------



## kielbasa kid

Not to beat a dead horse BUT.............. I just returned from a doctor visit this afternoon.  He knows of my interest and said this:

"I went to a chicken & rib joint and when the chicken came to the table, I said this looks under cooked. It's pink". 

The server said, "No; it's perfect. That's the smoke ring". 

He continued, "Who am I to argue. They smoke and BBQ all of the time.......... I just got out of the hospital last week. I had salmonella poisoning".

One never knows; do one?


----------



## alblancher

If its red at the bone it not cooked! 

How many times have you been to a restaurant and gotten undercooked fried chicken?

If doc got it from the smokehouse then someone else got it from the smokehouse.  I'd be interested to find out if anyone else got sick.  Goes to show you, cook to temperture.


----------



## kielbasa kid

Al: I don't order chicken or chop meat out UNLESS it's White Castle Rat Burgers; a dozen at a time.  During the early 50s, we got them 5 for 24 cents with a news paper coupon. 

He was zapped in a restaurant that smokes.  I'd say that it he wouldn't let it drop there but I don't get into personal stuff like litigation issues. He didn't name the, "chicken and rib joint".

BTW: Take a gander at my smoker's SS table top. It came from a White Castle renovation
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





.


----------



## alblancher

I'm a bit younger then you are but I remember in the early 60s going up to the White Castle on Airline Hwy in Metairie Louisiana.  One day they had a contest that winners received free burgers.  It was a stroke of luck that I paid for 4 burgers and ended up eating 20 something burgers.  Just little gems of greasy goodness.  Still love those little sliders, I think the term sliders had a double meaning!

Watch the newspaper  stories of retaurants getting people sick always seem to make news.   If they can prove it came from the BBQ joint they will probably go out of business even if they have good insurance.

We have what used to be a Pit Grill in Slidell.  15 some odd years ago the new owners of the building noticed a smell.  A guy had tried to climb down the stove exhaust system and got stuck.  It was too greasy to climb out.  To this day all these years later you can say lets go to dead guy and people know where to meet you.


----------



## exhaustedspark

Kielbasa Kid said:


> Not to beat a dead horse BUT.............. I just returned from a doctor visit this afternoon.  He knows of my interest and said this:
> 
> "I went to a chicken & rib joint and when the chicken came to the table, I said this looks under cooked. It's pink".
> 
> The server said, "No; it's perfect. That's the smoke ring".
> 
> He continued, "Who am I to argue. They smoke and BBQ all of the time.......... I just got out of the hospital last week. I had salmonella poisoning".
> 
> One never knows; do one?


What amazes me is the good doc more then likely had salad with his meat but when he got sick meat gets the blame. Most food poisening that i have read about comes from the salad bar.

My first question to someone that got sick at a resturant is did they test the meat and did you have salad.

Love the pink meat and allways cook the bird to temp so it wont be over cooked.

Never use them da&* popup temp guage.







Karl


----------



## SmokinAl

Interesting thread!


----------



## Bearcarver

I mention the Danger Zone rule often.

I recommend not injecting or probing with a therm before 3 hours, to newbies, or anyone else who isn't sure if the piece of meat they are putting in will get to 135˚ IT in no longer than 4 hours. I used to worry about that Danger Zone until I got that info from Pineywoods, who got it from bbally, who knows just about everything about food safety. Now I never insert my temperature probe until the Butt, Brisket, Chucky, Prime Rib, or any other large uncured hunk of meat has been in my smoker at 225˚ for at least 3 hours.

My 2¢

Bear


----------



## kielbasa kid

Just little gems of greasy goodness.   ?????????????  Actually, they are relatively fat free and are steamed...not fried.

"20" Al?  The new Kingfish!  Never in my best form.  Wow!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I'm a "Thinker".   I like thinking.  I no longer have gainful employment and I think all day about, "What ifs".  Rules are usually made for protection, e.g. consumers, manufacturers, retailers and those among the general population....... with half-a-brain.

USDA rules/regulations/advisements are well place within society.  They are necessary.  However I cannot help but think how neurotic and hyper we have become. Yes....some are not capable of tying their own shoes while others are able to skim the printed page and live to see another day. 

Read packaging caveats. Light bulbs...Not to be taken internally.  Coffee containers.....Do not spill this in your lap.

Common sense is NOT common and so, we need "Big Brother". 

I for one, have always kept pert' info' regarding smoking on flash cards.  I have just gleened some interesting info' from the sages in this thread and made some new reference notes. I have my "Smoker's Note Book" with reminders.

As we become older and by rote we do what we have always been doing as "experts" for years,.......... we sometimes need a wake-up call. Graphically and physically, it's called, "A kick in the ass".  Whom among us, after umteen years of cooking, hasn't forgetfully or by side-stepping rules, burnt a finger, while doing what we know we shouldn't have been doing?

If I am fast....I can pick-up this hot pot without a mitt.  Scrub this clod in icey cold water?  Ahhhh I can skip this step. I'm in a hurry and nothing's going to happen anyway.

Hey! Waasuhmadder? No thoughts regarding grubby smokers being harbingers of bacteria and disease?  You can take that either way if you are awake.


----------



## alblancher

Maybe it wasn't a white castle we had, what was the name of the other slider place that was popular at the time?  About 3 inch square burgers fried with onions smashed into them served on a soft dinner roll?  That was some good eating!

You mentioned as we get older we tend to forget "common sense" sometimes.  The bad thing about that is as we get older we are not able to heal or react to those stupid mistakes as quickly as we used to.   When I grab a hot pot nowdays it takes a bit longer to get the darn thing back on the stove top without making a mess so the burn is a bit worse.   If I eat bad food nowdays with all the health problems we encounter it may not be a mistake that we heal quickly from.

I have a 74 yr old FIL with heart, blood pressure, sugar problems.  Just old, worn out from worrying about my wife her entire life.  Can you imagine how much fun my life would be if he got sick from my cooking?

We have a bunch of friends coming over for SELA this Fall.  Can you imagine the amount of grief I would catch on this forum if any one of them had to spend time hugging the porcelin after eating my food?  NO way it aint going to happen. 

I try to remember that it is always better to be to darn safe when handleing food then to make one mistake, especially when sharing the meal with people that trust you to serve a properly prepared dish.

Thats my monthly safety rant for the one or two people on the forum that have yet to read one.


----------



## kielbasa kid

Al,

Normally 12 cents, late 40s very, very early50s, square, 5 holes, onions, pickle...don't forget to ask for "extra pickle", small bun...never use ketchup and steamed over the chopped onion on a griddle. I'm as old as your F-I-L so coffee in a THICK cup the size of a European coffee cup was a nickel and the orange drink was the antidote.  I never heard of anyone getting sick.  My daughter moved to NYC and gets them regularly.

Sorry! We sort of high-jacked this thread in the end but before this, it gave an old guy like me, some good notes. Never to old to learn.

Rich (KK)


----------



## miamirick

al   your thinking of a crystal burger  almost the same as a white castle  you remember heading home from being out in high school, stop and get a bag of 5 or 6 to eat before going to sleep?


----------



## chef willie

X 2 what Al said....I have a feeling most/some/all of us have pushed the envelope at times with food to be consumed. Sometimes you dodge the bullet, sometimes not. I myself have injected raw butts and worried if I was gonna die or worse, depending on your view, have the s**** for 7 days as some above. Neither happened. I seem to be much more careful about where I eat out as of late, and what I eat out in joints. As Bourdain said, 'never eat fish on Mondays or meat loaf on Fridays' (well, something like that).


----------



## alblancher

Yep, 

Crystal Burgers.  They have started selling them in some of the Kangaroo Quick Stops but it just isn't the same.


----------



## kielbasa kid

Yup! You had Krystals; founded in 1932, along the lines of White Castle, born in 1921; thick cups and all. I just googled. Hummm Krystal Belly-Bombs with BBQ sauce look good but a thousand miles is a loooong way to go.

Maybe not???


----------



## meateater

Chef Willie said:


> X 2 what Al said....I have a feeling most/some/all of us have pushed the envelope at times with food to be consumed. Sometimes you dodge the bullet, sometimes not. I myself have injected raw butts and worried if I was gonna die or worse, depending on your view, have the s**** for 7 days as some above. Neither happened. I seem to be much more careful about where I eat out as of late, and what I eat out in joints. As Bourdain said, 'never eat fish on Mondays or meat loaf on Fridays' (well, something like that).




Keep you meat fresh, your injections cold and your poker clean. _Buon Appetito!  _


----------

