# 40 to 140 in under 4 ??



## arnie (Dec 30, 2010)

OK, I’m sorry, 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  but I’ve been discussing smoking a prime rib with someone I respect and I am questioning his procedure of smoking for 5 ½ hour at 180⁰ to get the meat to 125⁰.   He believes the meat is pasteurized.

???


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## rbranstner (Dec 30, 2010)

What size roast are we talking here? You are correct on the rule of thumb which to be safe you should go from 40 degrees to 140 degrees in a 4 hour window to ensure that there isn't bacteria growth in the meat. Now since you are talking about a whole cut of meat that generally can be adjusted a bit because the bacteria shouldn't penetrate the meat very far so the center doesn't need to reach 140 but if you stick a probe or any kind of object into the roast then you can introduce any bacteria that could have been on the outer part of the meat and now put it into the center of the meat and you would have to follow the 40-140 rule. At least that is how I understand it. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am pointing you in the wrong direction.


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## rw willy (Dec 30, 2010)

Pasteurization occurs at high temps for a specific time then rapid cooling.  That is not happening with your friends process.

That being said if he wants his beef @ 125 internal.  Why bother smoking it?  Just slice it and serve cold as Tartare?

My $.02


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## arnie (Dec 30, 2010)

rbranstner said:


> What size roast are we talking here? You are correct on the rule of thumb which to be safe you should go from 40 degrees to 140 degrees in a 4 hour window to ensure that there isn't bacteria growth in the meat. Now since you are talking about a whole cut of meat that generally can be adjusted a bit because the bacteria shouldn't penetrate the meat very far so the center doesn't need to reach 140 but if you stick a probe or any kind of object into the roast then you can introduce any bacteria that could have been on the outer part of the meat and now put it into the center of the meat and you would have to follow the 40-140 rule. At least that is how I understand it. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am pointing you in the wrong direction.


Not sure of the weight, but he said it was a 2 rib short end choice grade. I agree with what you've said, but I seem to remember reading somewhere in order to get the temperature of the outside 1/2" of the meat through the 140 in 4 hours it should be cooked at 200.

I think he is trying to tell me the "Danger Zone" (40°F - 140°F) is about the ambient room temp. With the smoker temp above 140°F there is not issue with how long the smoke takes. I cannot believe this is right, or am I all wrong?


RW Willy said:


> Pasteurization occurs at high temps for a specific time then rapid cooling.  That is not happening with your friends process.
> 
> That being said if he wants his beef @ 125 internal.  Why bother smoking it?  Just slice it and serve cold as Tartare?
> 
> My $.02


That's what I thought also.  

I’m unsure of the temperature needed for the pasteurization process, but I know it cannot be done at 180⁰


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## SmokinAl (Dec 30, 2010)

OK, now I have a question. Is it alright to eat beef at 120-125 degrees internal, which is how we like it. I guess if you go by the 40-140 rule as long as we eat it, from fridge to stomach in less than 4 hours were OK. Is that right?


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## pineywoods (Dec 30, 2010)

Actually the rule was changed to 41-135 in under 4 hours. There are lots of other rules that can apply like holding it at X temperature for X minutes. Most of the food safety stuff I see posted does say if following the intact muscle rule run your smoker at at least 200 degrees. The best one I know to ask these questions is Bbally if he doesn't post to this thread then I would suggest PMing him Bob is great about answering members questions.


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## mballi3011 (Dec 30, 2010)

Yea what Jerry said or what ever Bob says too.


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## scarbelly (Dec 30, 2010)

I like my PR very rare so I smoke it a 225 to an internal of 130 and let it coast in foil to 135 (if I can wait that long 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





)

All the recipes I see are for 200+ on the temps


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## deannc (Dec 30, 2010)

I've always been confused as to where in the USDA fact sheets does it reference the 4 hour rule.  I've always only been able to find the "Danger Zone" fact sheet.

The Smoking Meat and Poultry fact sheet states the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process. 

The last referenced fact sheet also states the following are safe internal temps;

Smoke food to a safe minimum internal temperature.

Beef, veal, and lamb steaks, roasts, and chops may be cooked to 145 °F.
All cuts of pork to 160 °F.
Ground beef, veal and lamb to 160 °F.
All poultry should reach a safe minimum internal temperature of 165 °F.
And of course we all know these are guidelines, but I wish I could find in the food safety guidelines the information on the 4 hour rule for my reference in future conversations with folks.  I've mentioned this in a couple recent offline conversations and a couple folks thought I was crazy and I'd love to be able to print something out to rub in their face!! LOL


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 30, 2010)

The 4-hr guideline is for *(EDIT: non-intact) **whole muscle meats* only, and any meats which do not meet the description of a whole muscle meat should be treated as such.

If I'm understanding the guidelines correctly, then, my interpretation of them leans towards the margin of safest practice, and in keeping with that:

Meats which *are not considered whole muscle meats* include:

1) meats which have had the bone removed and the incision/cuts have then been re-closed (to maintain a bulkier/thicker cut of meat);

2) any ground meat product;

3) any injected (injectable marinade) or punctured (temp probe insertion, or stuffed with garlic cloves) meat product which has been tampered with prior to the outer 1/2" of the meat reaching 140* within 4 hours;

4) any meats which have been filleted of otherwise cut open to insert another food product inside and then re-closed for cooking (such as stuffed pork loin);

So, with a prime rib roast, it would meet the description of a whole muscle meat, provided it is not injected with marinade, a thermometer probe inserted too early, or de-boned and then rolled and tied, or otherwise closing-up of the freshly cut surfaces of meat. If a bone-in beef rib eye, prime rib roast, 7-bone whole beef rib (or however you prefer to reference it as) is de-boned, since the bones are not removed from the interior of the whole roast, and, if this fresh cut from bone removal is left exposed the entire time it is being cooked, it would still be considered a whole muscle meat.

Note: if a cut of meat were deboned (example: pork butt/shoulder), and then left as a butter-flied cut until cooking is completed (which leaves the fresh cuts exposed), this would still be considered a whole muscle meat.

Hope this gives you a better picture of what the whole muscle meat guideline can do for you with low & slow cooking, and keeps you running down the straight and narrow path when your pre-cooked meats can't be considered whole muscle meats.

Eric


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## chefrob (Dec 31, 2010)

Arnie said:


> OK, I’m sorry,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) the meat is not pasturized

2) time is irrelevent in respect to 5 1/2hrs...........what if the meat is 1# vs 25#

3) cooking temperatures should be 225 or above

 

edit for #2...........if the meat is not pinned, rolled, punctured or mechanically altered.


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## chefrob (Dec 31, 2010)

forluvofsmoke said:


> The 4-hr guideline is for *whole muscle meats* only, and any meats which do not meet the description of a whole muscle meat should be treated as such.
> 
> Eric


eric, i'm not sure i follow you on this.........do you mean non intact muscles must conform to the rule?


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 31, 2010)

chefrob said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > The 4-hr guideline is for *whole muscle meats* only, and any meats which do not meet the description of a whole muscle meat should be treated as such.
> ...


Oops!!! I can see the reason for your confusion...typo...should read for *non-intact whole muscle meats*, so yes, you're on the right track. Been one of them days...I'll edit the original to avoid future confusion.

Eric


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## SmokinAl (Dec 31, 2010)

OK, from reading all your posts, I'm assuming that it's safe to eat Prime rib at 125 degrees internal if it's smoked at at least 225 degrees and the external 1/2 " of the meat is at least 140 degrees. Correct?


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## Bearcarver (Dec 31, 2010)

SmokinAl said:


> OK, from reading all your posts, I'm assuming that it's safe to eat Prime rib at 125 degrees internal if it's smoked at at least 225 degrees and the external 1/2 " of the meat is at least 140 degrees. Correct?




I don't want to say 125˚ is safe to eat, but I will say that if it was smoked at 225˚, it is just as safe as if it was cooked at 350˚, as long as it wasn't probed or injected for the first 2 hours.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Dec 31, 2010)

Arnie said:


> OK, I’m sorry,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Arnie, let me help you beat that horse:

I don't know where the safety border line is---180˚--190˚--200˚, or whatever, All I will say is when I do my Prime Rib, I keep the temp at 225˚/230˚ the whole time. I do not inject it, and I do not put the meat probe in until after the first 2 hours. When it is done, it is a nice juicy red/pink from bark to bark. There is nothing but pink inside, so what would smoking it at 180˚ accomplish.

Check the pics of my Prime Rib, by clicking below on "Prime Rib".

Bear


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## rw willy (Dec 31, 2010)

Sounds like it!  Just be aware of your temp probe placement.  I'm guessing that 125 in the center of a bone in roast is not 125 a bit lower by the bones.

Are we going to see any Qview for this project?  I want to see the cut version of a 125 roast.

Thanks


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## rw willy (Dec 31, 2010)

BearC makes good points.  Thats the beauty of low/slow.  Consistent pink through out the roast.  Like I said early on.  Eat Tartare or cook it.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 31, 2010)

SmokinAl said:


> OK, now I have a question. Is it alright to eat beef at 120-125 degrees internal, which is how we like it. I guess if you go by the 40-140 rule as long as we eat it, from fridge to stomach in less than 4 hours were OK. Is that right?




LOL---Fridge to stomach in 4 hours---Thanks for my daily laugh Al---I needed that. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Hmmm, after we eat it, we'll keep it at 98.6˚ for pretty long too.  Back to the drawing board !

Thanks Al,

Bear


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 31, 2010)

Al, that does have good dose of comic relief, as Bear mentioned.

I don't know that I'd deliberately eat beef at 125* or lower...I can say that up to this point in time, I never have.

USDA doesn't even recommend cooking to rare temps with beef. They list 145* for med/rare in these fact sheets:

This sheet shows the reommended safe internal temps for all types of flesh-based foods HERE  (looking 1/2 way down the page for the chart).

And in this article, sub-titled "cooking", again, 1/2 way down the page HERE.

It's med/rare to med beef for me, but that's the way I've always liked my beef. I don't see any real benefit in cooking to 10 or 20* lower temp, as the juices of the beef are plentiful even at medium temps.

Eric


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## chefrob (Dec 31, 2010)

for me and my customers a "145" mid rare doesn't fly.............i'd get send backs all night long. while i'm not i big fan of tare tare, i do like a good carpaccio.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 31, 2010)

chefrob said:


> for me and my customers a "145" mid rare doesn't fly.............i'd get send backs all night long. while i'm not i big fan of tare tare, i do like a good carpaccio.


LOL----Many moons ago, when I was in my 20s, I ordered a steak Med/Rare at one of those cheap steak joints (The Rustler).

Everybody else's steak was brought to the table before mine was----I couldn't figure out why that could be.

Then I saw why---They brought me a well done piece of crap. I made my usual little cut in it to be sure.

I called the waiter over and told him I had ordered it Med/Rare. He agreed, and took it back to the grills.

I little while later they brought me a steak---It looked well done too!!

I flipped it over, and sure enough, there was the cut I had made in it the first time they brought it to me (The same steak!).

I picked it up, took it to the door that said "Manager" on it, and I knocked.

I asked the guy who came to the door if he was the Manager. He said he was.

I told him what had happened, and asked him if he knew any way that you could turn a well done steak into a Med/Rare steak.

He asked the guy why he sent the same one back to me. He said he didn't. But the little cut I had made???

He said he made that cut, and he had thrown the one I sent back away.

The Manager asked him which trash can he threw it in. He said, "None of these---I took it out to the dumpster".

So we are to believe he personally carried one steak out across the parking lot to the dumpster, with my cut in it.

The Manager made me one exactly the way I wanted it.

Everybody else at our table had to watch me eat, because they were all finished eating by the time I got my final steak.

Bear


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## deannc (Jan 1, 2011)

Where does the USDA list in *writing*, anything about 4 hours or less to reach 140° internal meat temp or the outside 1/2 inch of meat?


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## bbally (Jan 1, 2011)

DeanNC said:


> Where does the USDA list in *writing*, anything about 4 hours or less to reach 140° internal meat temp or the outside 1/2 inch of meat?


Starting this year you won't find 140 F in the guidelines. You will see the Danger Zone defined as 41 F to 135 F as that is the new standard.

No where would it mention the outside half inch of meat reaching 140 F as the food code is designed to be  information on how to properly prepare food with successful results.  However when you use the Whole Intact Muscle rule, you don't want the probe to violate the muscle group lest you have to treat is as a violated meat.

So by delaying the probe insertion until the outside of the meat has been sterilized you can safely under cook the rest of the muscle group and show compliance.

The Danger zone rule is 4 hours maximum time/temperature abuse.  Including prep and cooking.  You can also monitor times through the temperature danger zone for multiple step prep work.  This is how we ensure public safety using the 4 hour rule.

The 4 hour rule is in the 2009 food code:

*(B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control*

*up to a maximum of 4 hours:*

Again this is to say the no food shall have a cumulitive temperature abuse of more that 4 hours.  It is also qualified with potentially hazardous foods.  Raw meat being potentially hazardous.  Cold ready to eat food has exceptions that will allow up to 6 hours.

*The site is, of course, treating the smoker hobbyist as a professional chef using the pro guidelines to establish what would happen in a commercial kitchen. *

We do this assuming the smoker hobbyist is striving for the pro level results and thus needs released from the shackles of the home cook rules.  This is the reason we use the Food Code for the smoker hobbyist on the site.  Their (Serious hobbyist smoker) level of knowledge and skill is well above the "home cook, or consumer cook" and as such they need information on how to properly interpret those guidelines so they can push their skills into the pro arena.  There is a whole body of work that is also suppose to be used in conjunction with the Food Code, HACCP, Whole Intact Muscle, High Humidity cooking minimum temperature exceptions,  Smoking Curing inspectors handbook,  etc etc and numerous reesearch papers and FSIS position clarifications that come out.  Several qualified food safety professionals are on this site to share their information on how the commercial kitchen does the advanced techniques safely.  This helps the smoker hobbyist continue to push the envelope safely and give guidance on how do what the pros do.  The foodcode is opened up to the pro chef because FSIS USDA knows they have the knowledge to understand the consequences of handling food incorrectly.

If people are not in this category of skill level or mind set it would be best to use the consumer/home cook rules.  These rules are much more restrictive to keep the ignorant (as in food safety uneducated not any individual) from killing their family and/or friends.  These rules limit people to two hours maximum and one hour when the temperature is above 90 F. The also limit the lowest cooking temperatures.  That book can be downloaded at the link below.   Realize most people on the site are really pushing into the commercial realm and need the information offered from the commercial world, much of which won't be black and white or a written yes or no, it is left that way on purpose so we can do what we do safely.  For the "show it to me in black and white" crowd the companion below was developed to keep people safe.

Dean... rub this publication in their face as you wanted something in print.  Tell them by their questions to you, they have no business even thinking about using pro guidelines; as black and white is for consumers and listed below; advanced techiniques are for those interested in producing pro results but requires a "do it safely" mind set... not a prove I cannot do this mind set.

 _*Consumer Kitchen Companion*_

Hope this helps.


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## bbally (Jan 1, 2011)

SmokinAl said:


> OK, from reading all your posts, I'm assuming that it's safe to eat Prime rib at 125 degrees internal if it's smoked at at least 225 degrees and the external 1/2 " of the meat is at least 140 degrees. Correct?


The correct answer is:

There are risks associated with eating under cooked beef.  But using Intact muscle rules you can reduce those risks significantly;

You cannot feed beef in this temperature range to any at risk population.  Including those with compromised immun systems, hospital patients, the frale ederly, those with diabetic conditions.

I could not feed it in catering cause it would still be bloody.  We like to see juice run clear.  That is 132 F.  So we pull at 128 to 130 F and cambro.  Buy the time we get onsite it is a perfect 138 F in the middle and 145 F on the ends allowing a pretty wide variety of cuts to be sliced for peoples preference.  That said always one egotistical maniac in the crowd that insists it is not rare enough.  To which I reply, go to a restaurant they cook to order and I serve their slice to the person in line behing them.  Then I explain I cook for the majority of everyone here, would you like one or not, you are holding up my line?  At which time they blink their eyes confused that someone would basically tell the to shut up and take it or leave it.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 1, 2011)

Bob (bbally),

Thanks for the very informative posts---as usual.

Bear


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## arnie (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks to all for the input and your time   

I believe we have finally agreed to disagree.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





    .


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## bbally (Jan 1, 2011)

Arnie said:


> Thanks to all for the input and your time
> 
> I believe we have finally agreed to disagree.
> 
> ...


I love the dead horse Emoticon!!!!!

Agree to disagree is important in many instances..... This is complicated if it was easy the CDC would not release these kind of statistics:

 To better quantify the impact of foodborne diseases on health in the United States, we compiled and analyzed information from multiple surveillance systems and other sources. We estimate that foodborne diseases cause approximately 76 million illnesses, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths in the United States each year. Known pathogens account for an estimated 14 million illnesses, 60,000 hospitalizations, and 1,800 deaths. Three pathogens, _Salmonella, Listeria_, and_ Toxoplasma_, are responsible for 1,500 deaths each year, more than 75% of those caused by known pathogens, while unknown agents account for the remaining 62 million illnesses, 265,000 hospitalizations, and 3,200 deaths. Overall, foodborne diseases appear to cause more illnesses but fewer deaths than previously estimated.

The only thing you can do it commit to learning to do it safer as the information is added to the body of work.
 

To make a cut and dry rule, you end up with the kitchen guideline, way to restrictive for what some people are trying to accomplish.... give a food code for reference you end up with endless discussion on how and why.... the subject is complex!

But, make it idiot proof and the world will design a better idiot 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  to prove it wrong!


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## DanMcG (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks for your input Bob, and them CDC stats are sobering to say the least.


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## deannc (Jan 1, 2011)

Bob, thanks for your thorough and informative posts!!!  The link is excellent as well and helps me greatly! Again, thank you and Happy New Year!


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