# Considering buying an Electric smoker



## greenersport (Jul 26, 2016)

If I were to buy an Electric smoker should I get?  I see Charbroil has some new models?  Masterbuilt?  I think the Bluetooth and temp monitoring would be nice.  Looking for advice.

Thanks!


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## forluvofsmoke (Jul 27, 2016)

Not a watt-burner here, I just never wanted to go that route. I've read that Masterbuilt has great customer service...haven't read much about the rest you mentioned.

While the units with more convenience and features may be appealing, they are more complicated...complicated translates to higher potential for problems down the road when compared to just a simple rig with temp controller.

In my experience, simple is usually more reliable, even if it comes with a bit steeper learning curve to master the rig.

In most cases, don't trust the factory thermometers as they tend to have less than acceptable range of accuracy. Verify temps before trusting them with a prized cut of meat. Even just a $4 pocket thermometer to insert into the smoke chamber is better than nothing for temp, and you can do a boil-check with them to verify their accuracy.

These will help explain the what and why to determine if your smoke chamber therms are good to go:

Boiling Point / Atmospheric Pressure / Altitude

Water Altitude Boiling Point Calculator

Eric


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## sota d (Jul 27, 2016)

I've had a Masterbuilt 30 for 3 years now. Other than recently replacing the heating element, I've had no problems with it and it has turned out some great Q. No blue tooth or anything fancy, but it works well. Good luck, David.


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2016)

greenersport said:


> If I were to buy an Electric smoker should I get?  I see Charbroil has some new models?  Masterbuilt?  I think the Bluetooth and temp monitoring would be nice.  Looking for advice.
> 
> Thanks!


I've enjoyed my Masterbuilt electric digital smoker for over four years. It's a 30" Generation 1 model, which you can sometimes find for under $130-140 but more often around $170-180. That makes it the best electric smoker in its price range. I'm not a fan of any Charbroil products because I think the quality of construction is lacking across the board. Masterbuilt has a new Bluetooth model in both 30" and 40" sizes which has been very popular but they're also a little pricey. It depends on how much you plan to spend. Masterbuilt also has an excellent customer service department.

Since my MES 30 is what I call a basic black model, I monitor meat and cooking temps with the Maverick ET-733. I really enjoy that therm, so much so that I just bought my 2nd one. I don't have a smart phone--yet--but I can't see using a Bluetooth therm with phone apps to monitor the cooking. A lot of guys like to keep digital records or even written printouts of their smokes. I think I'd rarely read those.


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## cmayna (Jul 27, 2016)

I love my  MES40  Gen 1  smoker.  It caused my two Big Chief's to go into retirement.


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## jond36 (Jul 27, 2016)

My biggest recommendation is DONT get a small cooking chamber. This is especially true with electrics because the food can throw of the temp of the thermometer and shut off the cooker or vice versa. 

The MES is large enough that it doesnt have this problem, but just some food for thought.

Pros - lazy Q (set and forget)

Cons - no smoke ring
           - no TBS


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## jond36 (Jul 27, 2016)

I should catch myself before I say no TBS. AMNPS puts out great smoke.


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## scobeyjohn (Jul 27, 2016)

I am single and have a son and daughter in law that come over to eat.  A few weeks ago I bought an electric Masterbuilt Bullet with 2 racks.  I have smoked some salmon, chicken quarters and today I am doing a 4lb brisket.  So far it has worked great and I am happy with it. It is easy to clean and move around.


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## chef jimmyj (Jul 27, 2016)

I have 2 MES 40's Gen 1 Model 20070311 all Stainless. The Bluetooth units are good as well. If price does not matter too much, the Smokin-It Electrics are a great value...JJ


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## daricksta (Jul 27, 2016)

cmayna said:


> I love my  MES40  Gen 1  smoker.  It caused my two Big Chief's to go into retirement.


I forgot about the MES 40 Gen 1. Had I had the money that would have been my choice instead of the MES 30. Don't know why but you can find an abundance of MES 30 Gen 1's on Amazon but not one MES 40 Gen 1. At least I haven't seen one in a couple of years.


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## jeffinn (Jul 29, 2016)

The Smokin-It 3D is a really great smoker. All stainless steel and backed by a 3 year warranty (1 year on the Auber controller and 3 years on everything else). The owner really stands behind his products.
I purchased the 3D a few months ago and absolutely love it!


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## focus (Jul 29, 2016)

I've recently made the decision to go electric myself.  I have loved my char-griller with side fire box for many years, but my life demands a more set-and-forget option.  Plus the New England winters have taken their toll on the Char Griller.

My 2 whole hours of research turned up the Masterbuilt and Bradley models.  Stopping by Lowes and Home Depot and I was relatively pleased.  Although the models they had on the floor (the 30" Masterbuilt and 40" with window and remote control) had some plusses and minuses.  the notable minus being the chip/ash holder looked really small for a long smoke session - like about 1.5 cups.  Ditto for the water basin - maybe two cups there.  I've seen a video through the Lowes/HD website that shows a model with a larger water basin.  However, the model in the video didn't have a meat thermoprobe - which I really liked in the floor models I've seen.

As to the Bradley models, I'm very interested in the automatic feed system, but I'm not crazy about being wedded to Bradley bisquetts forever.  But from what I can tell, you can get a longer smoke session using the Masterbuilt cold smoke accessory so you're not refilling the chips every few minutes.  Any experience with this out there?

Couple more questions:

- Someone said that you can't get a smoke ring with a Masterbuilt.  What gives there?

- What is TBS and AMNPS?

- Should I get hung up over the meat probe?  I read another post here that says it's not accurate anyway.  I think I can just use another remote probe thermometer and thread it through the exhaust valve, right?

I haven't mentioned yet that I'm looking to spend $200-$300, maybe a little more if it's really worth it.

Thanks for the advice.


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## old sarge (Jul 30, 2016)

Focus - Welcome to the forum. 

You can get a smoke ring if your heat source is wood.   Combustion of the wood produces the gasses that produce the smoke ring. You will not get the smoke ring with electric.   The wood chips or chunks used are for smoke flavor.

TBS is thin blue smoke. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I do not. I use a Smokin-it electric smoker  and prior to that a Cookshack Amerique. My smokers use chunks; 3 to 5 ounces total at the beginning of the smoke with no reloading needed.  I can use tree branches from fruit trees in the wood box to save on money.

The AMNPS is an after market accessory that burns pellets or sawdust that a lot of master built owners use to avoid having to make repeated trips to fill the chip tray.  From what I have read, you will need a torch to light the pellets/sawdust.

You need a quality temperature probe for monitoring the smoker temperature and when doing large pieces of meat, the internal temperature of the meat.  Check out the ThermaQ and the Maverick.

Besides the smokers you are looking at in the stores, do not overlook smokers from Smokin-it.  All stainless steel, inside and out; no plastic or painted parts, no gaskets, no windows, 3 year warranty on the smoker and if you get the digital version, the controller is covered by a 1 year warranty.  

I am including a link to the SI smoker site and also a link to an article that explains smoke.  Very helpful in understanding the science. 

I hope this helps.  It is very tempting when starting out to buy what looks good in a store but do some  more reading and research.  A smoker, a good one, is an investment.

Dave

http://www.smokin-it.com

http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/zen_of_wood.html


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## daricksta (Aug 2, 2016)

old sarge said:


> Focus - Welcome to the forum.
> 
> You can get a smoke ring if your heat source is wood.   Combustion of the wood produces the gasses that produce the smoke ring. You will not get the smoke ring with electric.   The wood chips or chunks used are for smoke flavor.
> 
> ...


Well! This is news to me. You forsook your Cookshack Amerique for a Smokin-It? What happened to motivate you to make the change? But I tell you, if I had it in my budget and wanted to stick with electric smokers I'd be looking at a Cookshack or a Smokin-It. Some people like the Smokin-Tex, which looks very similar to a SI smoker. But from what I've read SI has the better line of smokers and their prices are better as well. AI know that Cookshack is made in the USA whereas SI is made in China. That's the primary reason why CS smokers are higher-priced than SI because the both seem to be about the same in quality. SI has the better warranty: parts are covered for 3 years instead of two.


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## n4ynu (Aug 2, 2016)

greenersport said:


> If I were to buy an Electric smoker should I get?  I see Charbroil has some new models?  Masterbuilt?  I think the Bluetooth and temp monitoring would be nice.  Looking for advice.
> 
> Thanks!


Going to share a post I already made with you, for a very affordable yet nice unit from Master Built.

I am new to electric smokers as well, having a been a wood and charcoal cooker/smoker (4-6 hours) with a Char Grill.

I also went thru the same mess looking at all the different electronic options

I did some intense research on the models as well as the price of the replacement electronics and elements, probes etc etc, that said, I found that the main control/readout is very pricey, over half the price of the unit in most cases and seeing that and the added cost of the other items I was not impressed, my reason being, if I have one of those then I would want at least a spare control and heating element in case it died and I was in the middle of a cook, then I could replace and get back to business, when I saw the price of these gadgets I was discouraged.

So all that said I started looking at different models and their capability

I chose the MES 30 Sportsman Elite for these reasons:

1. Simplicity
2. It has a 1500W Element which in regards to cold weather cooking should be enough to handle the heat loss if done outside, again the 1500W element for good heat control and less variations of the temp, and again for high temp cooking and smoking, the 1500W element will surely outperform and have better life than the lesser ones around 800W's
3. I am not sure of the comments on longevity of the unit, the one I have is made well, yet it is not Stainless Steel but even if left outside with a cover I do not see the life being a issue, it should last well over 5 years, and if kept indoors or a shop I would imagine it would last forever unless you run over it or a tree falls on your shop and destroys it.
4. COST - I paid 146 bucks for it and with the rack Mod I am doing I have 8 racks for jerky and a host of other things, of course I can not put a chicken or whole ham on each rack, but with 8 racks I can surely do 8 chickens or 4 hams with bone or probably 12 roasts if I wanted.
5. Simplicity of Heating Element and Temperature Control, it is like that of a Electric Skillet, very dependable.

All that said, the reason I am against all the fancy electronics is for one, as stated, the cost of replacement of the individual parts is rather expensive in my opinion, and they will go bad sooner or later
I can get a new Temp Control and the 1500W Element, both, for just under $50 from Master Built.

I love stainless but I would not leave a electric appliance/controls in the weather even with a cover, it will lead to accelerated death of the parts from moisture, condensation, rust, dust, pollen etc etc, so if the body is Stainless that is great, but it will not stop that damage to wiring, elements and Temp controls, another plus for this unit, there is no wiring except the cord going to the Temp Control !

And for the biggest reason to forget the electronics and go Analog is :

You can buy a dual probe meat thermometer that will monitor inside cook temp, meat temps on separate pieces/roasts etc, the cook time overall, and you can get them in Infrared, Wireless and Bluetooth, so I do not see spending all that extra money for the smoker regarding the addition of the extras electronically when you can get a decent dual or single probe monitor for right at or even well under $50

I do not look at Master Built having the market because of the many people using them, I look at it as there are many people using them because they are far more affordable and in real use and general care last the same amount of time or as long.

I am perfectly happy with the construction of the unit and I have been in the mechanical for my whole life, and with proper care, this will outlast my Char Grill, only because the Char Grill has to be outdoors, even under the cover it takes damage over time, but then I am on my second Char Grill, but have been using them for over 20 years.

I have not fired mine up but am impressed with the simplicity and have a list of Mods I want to complete, one I have already done, The Rack Mod, I get the other 3 racks today and will be posting that Mod this evening with instructions, and the parts from Master Built were less than $20 dollars, the other I am doing soon is adding a Smoke Stack from a Master Forge Propane Grill, part with shipping less than $15, and the reason being is I am using a AMNPS Pellet smoker, with the MES 30, the chip tray is not reliable unless cooking high temp, and the majority of my work outside of actually using it to cook, will be low temp or cold smoke, I will be posting that Mod as well as soon as I get the Stack in about a week, just ordered it today, the reason for the Stack is to increase Air Flow over the basic 3/4" hole in the back right hand top that is the exhaust vent ( I will use that hole for my Temp Probes and fill with high temp RTV Silicone ), the AMNPS has to have Air of course and it will help with the smoke generation and keeping the AMNPS lit, but the real reason is for drying and or dehydrating, it will speed those processes drastically, the stack is adj for air flow, so it can be adj'ed so it is like it was or opened up for faster times on diff uses.

Many consider the AMNPS as a MOD but all you have to do is set it in there, I guess it does qualify for a MOD seeing it is Modified Operation at the very least.

So, if you have lots of money, throw it at the Stainless, but if you want something that will serve you with reasonable care for a long long time, save that money and buy some meat instead of Stainless  :)

To each his or her own but I would stay away from the electronic versions, if you want really reliable heat control then follow my profile, after the stack Mod, I will be working on a nice T-Stat Mod for this as well so you can just set it and forget it, that is the only drawback I see in the Temp Control, no temp settings, I will mark mine for the moment but the T-Stat Mod will be far cheaper than the Aftermarket Temp Controllers and would not be subject to damage from moisture or even wet environments as it is a sealed contact that is otherwise purely mechanical in nature.


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## focus (Aug 5, 2016)

So I started looking at Masterbuilts and Bradleys as cost effective options. Based largely on N4YU's post above, I'd just about settled on a Masterbuilt 30 with cold smoke attachment + the AMNPS gadget. Seemed like that would be the best and most cost effective option for me. Then my buddy starts talking to me about his Traeger Lil Tex Elite...

And suddenly I'm smitten, but at nearly twice my desired price point. #0.1, He tells me it's electric, but only in as much as the heat source for the pellets is electric. Supposedly, they ignite/smolder and do all of the cooking themselves. The only power it draws is for the auger that feeds the pellets and the heating element that occasionally kicks in andrestarts the pellets, so less power than a 1200W element and smoke for "added flavor vs real  wood as the cooking fuel.  This sounds good, right?

 #2 From what I understand, you cannot get a smoke ring with the Masterbuilt. But he claims he can get a smoke ring every time.

 #3 It can get hot enough to sear steaks and cook pizza; the MES can only get to 240F or so. Being a Massachusetts resident, if I could have a smoker AND a outside oven, that would be huge (no a/c during the summer makes cooking inside nearly impossible.) 

#4 I have had his Q and it has been spot on every time. Turkey and pork butt in particular, but i need few other samples to know it's the shit.

More research turned up Green mountain, Louisiana something or other , etc. I dont have unlimited resources but SWMBO might authorize a credit raise if its really worth it.

At any rate, I feel like I'm back to the drawing board. But am i comparing apples to dumptrucks if I'm talking Masterbuilt and Traeger/Green mtn/ etc. 

Thoughts?


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## daricksta (Aug 5, 2016)

Focus said:


> I've recently made the decision to go electric myself.  I have loved my char-griller with side fire box for many years, but my life demands a more set-and-forget option.  Plus the New England winters have taken their toll on the Char Griller.
> 
> My 2 whole hours of research turned up the Masterbuilt and Bradley models.  Stopping by Lowes and Home Depot and I was relatively pleased.  Although the models they had on the floor (the 30" Masterbuilt and 40" with window and remote control) had some plusses and minuses.  the notable minus being the chip/ash holder looked really small for a long smoke session - like about 1.5 cups.  Ditto for the water basin - maybe two cups there.  I've seen a video through the Lowes/HD website that shows a model with a larger water basin.  However, the model in the video didn't have a meat thermoprobe - which I really liked in the floor models I've seen.
> 
> ...


If you're looking to spend no more than $300, I think Masterbuilt is your best bet.  You'll be limited to either one of their analog smokers or the https://www.amazon.com/Masterbuilt-20070910-30-Inch-Electric-Controller/dp/B00104WRCY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470417734&sr=8-3&keywords=masterbuilt+smoker, which is what I own. It's a Generation 1 design that's several years old but remains a good one. Mine is the 30" model which means I'm limited to what I can put in there. A rack of pork ribs may squeeze up against the walls as well a beef brisket flat. I recently bought a whole packer brisket and have to plan how to fit that sucker in there and how many racks it will take. The smoker can also come with a half moon shaped controller (which was a redesign) but it's the same smoker. The price on Amazon right now is $189, what I paid for mine over 4 years ago, but I've seen it as low as $129 at Ace Hardware including meat probe and some other accessories. Mine didn't come with a meat probe or a window and I don't miss either one.

According to the Masterbuilt website, the company still sells 40" Gen 1 but it's pricey with its full retail price of $449.99. I never see that one in store ads. But, if I'd had the money 4 years ago, I would've opted for the 40" model even though the smaller guy I own is easy to move between my garage and my backyard on a hand truck.

As you've most likely read here, built in smoker therms or probe attachments are notoriously inaccurate. I use the Maverick ET-733 for monitoring smoker and meat IT temps. And yes, I thread the temp wires down through the top vent and clip the BARBECUE probe to a rack and insert the FOOD probe in meat (unless I'm smoking ribs then I clip both probes to different racks on different sides of the interior.

I don't like Bradleys because, as you wrote, you're tied to buying their biscuits. I also don't like it because the auger motor that drops biscuits into the burner (or whatever it's called) can break down, which I bet is expensive to replace if it happens out of warranty. Now, Lowes is my favorite big box hardware store but I wouldn't buy a smoker there. My local store only carries Masterbuilts that are second generation which are smokers that were riddled with design flaws. They've been replaced by the 2.5 Bluetooth models which I've been reading are much better but very pricey.

You can typically tell the generation version of a digital Masterbuilt by the controller placement. Gen 1 has the controller on top and in the rear. Gen 2 has the controller embedded in front at the top of the smoker. With the Gen 2.5 , the controller sits upright in the front and has a sunshade. There are interior design variations with the 3 generations and it's been acknowledged that the Gen 1 and 2.5 smokers have the best overall designs.  

Masterbuilt also makes custom smokers with big box sporting goods stores nameplates, like Cabelas or Bass Pro. Those smokers with those brands or with the MB brand are typically called Sportsman Elite. They typically come with a meat probe and 4-6 racks (4 racks are standard with a MES). Sometimes they might include a sausage hanger and a cover, depends on the unit on sale. If on sale they can be a great bargain, off sale they can be pricey.

TBS=Thin Blue Smoke. When you see smoke wafting out of the exhaust vent it shouldn't be solid white or very gray or even black and it shouldn't look like you're sending smoke signals to the neighbors which they might misinterpret as "Free Smoked Eats Over Here!" Thin blue smoke shows you that the smoker generator is working fine and producing the right amount of smoke to enhance the food and not overpower it.

AMNPS=A-MAZE-N Pellet Smoker. It's a wood pellet burning maze tray and it's what a lot of us here use. You can fill it with wood pellets and get up to at least 11 hours of smoke. There are a couple of issues in some situations with the pellets going out but that's typically due to airflow and temp conditions inside the smoker and/or weather conditions outside. Todd Johnson, owner of A-MAZE-N and inventor of different lines of wood pellets and Dust smokers provides superior customer service. He and his wife, Rhonda, are wonderful people. I also buy all my wood pellets from them. Here's the A-MAZE-N page to check out the company's products. https://www.amazenproducts.com/

I only use wood chips on rare occasions for specific reasons and they're always in addition to wood pellets. I never use them as my primary smoke source because it's a huge hassle to have to walk out to the smoker to refill the wood chip holder every 20-30 minutes. I also never use the water bowl because, in the Gen 1 models, it's way too large for the smoker interior and just serves to steam the food. MES smokers are so well-insulated you never have to worry about the meat drying out--unless you leave it in the smoker at 250° and higher for a couple of days or more because you left on vacation and forgot to take out the meat and turn off the smoker. I foil over the water bowl and use it as another drip tray.

A lot of MB smoker owners love the Cold Smoker attachment. It attaches to the wood chip loader hole on the side. The problem for me is that I sit my MES 30 on a table and to use the Cold Smoker I'd either have to place the CS unit on a table next to the smoker or do a mod like many users do and run a pipe from the CS to the MES. The CS is also an electrical unit so that's one more thing to plug in. It also uses wood chips but I'm not sure if it can also use wood pellets. I also don't know if it has an electric motor-driven auger to deliver wood chips to the MES or if it's a gravity-feed system. I like to keep things simple. I don't like to use more equipment than I have to when I smoke food. I use the AMNPS for cold smoking but I have issues with the pellets going out multiple times. Even though it can be a hassle to have to refire the pellets 3 or more times, and there's also an issue with keeping the smoker temp low due to the heat given off by the burning pellets, I've produced some outstanding smoked cheese along with a batch of beef jerky using the AMNPS. I now also have a tube smoker made by A-MAZE-N can be used for cold smokes.. It's been recommended to me that Dust is better for smoking at lower temps but I haven't bought any yet. The AMNPS burns either pellets or Dust but the tube smoker burns pellets only.

So, hope all this helps. Yes, there are many electric smokers out there under different brand names and all similar in design to each other. I researched the major brands and types and I chose Masterbuilt. I've never regretted my choice except for it would've been nice to have been able to afford the 40" model. But one more thing: Masterbuilt customer service is excellent. Yes, you can get a rep who may not be as good or knowledgeable as others but in that case, you'd hang up and call back and most likely the luck of the draw or throw of the dice will connect you to a better CSR. I've worked in a few call centers (and offices) so I know that's how it works and what it make take to get good customer service from any company's call center.


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## frankly (Aug 5, 2016)

"#2 From what I understand, you cannot get a smoke ring with the Masterbuilt. But he claims he can get a smoke ring every time"

--> Check out the thread and Qview I put up last night for my first butt on my MES 30 - it has a smoke ring.

"#3 It can get hot enough to sear steaks and cook pizza; the MES can only get to 240F or so. Being a Massachusetts resident, if I could have a smoker AND a outside oven, that would be huge (no a/c during the summer makes cooking inside nearly impossible.)"

--> Not sure about the searing part but MES are good for 275F as far as I know.

I've done four smokes on my MES 30 (Gen 1) since July 4th weekend and really like it.  I had done smoking on my Weber kettle for several years and really enjoy the ease of using the MES (again, have a look at my first pork butt thread - that's about as easy of smoking as I could imagine).  I've read a lot about the AMNPS gadget and various other modifications/upgrades but decided to use the MES stock for some smokes to get accustomed to it and see how it performs out of the box, then see where I want to go from there.  So far I have not been disappointed!


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## daricksta (Aug 5, 2016)

Frankly said:


> "#2 From what I understand, you cannot get a smoke ring with the Masterbuilt. But he claims he can get a smoke ring every time"
> 
> --> Check out the thread and Qview I put up last night for my first butt on my MES 30 - it has a smoke ring.
> 
> ...


From what I've read, the ones who get smoke rings add a lump of charcoal to the wood chips under the heating element. Wood chips/pellets alone never burn hot enough nor generate enough of the gases needed to generate a smoke ring. It's all cosmetic anyway. I've chosen not to try it because I don't feel like experimenting with a burning charcoal lump inside my electric smoker.

The top temp of a MES is 275 degrees but it can easily override that although it's not at all good for the smoker. Most smoking is done between 225-250 degrees in electric smokers of the MES design. I've sear/reversed seared steaks on my Weber charcoal grill. Some people will also sear them under a kitchen oven broiler


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## frankly (Aug 5, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> From what I've read, the ones who get smoke rings add a lump of charcoal to the wood chips under the heating element. Wood chips/pellets alone never burn hot enough nor generate enough of the gases needed to generate a smoke ring. It's all cosmetic anyway. I've chosen not to try it because I don't feel like experimenting with a burning charcoal lump inside my electric smoker.


I just ran it on the higher end of the smoking scale (275F) with few modest sized hand fulls of mesquite/apple chips and had a decent looking ring - at least in some areas but possibly not all throughout.


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## focus (Aug 5, 2016)

Great responses all, and some serious Q-porn from Frankly, thanks.

So, am I comparing apples to dump trucks if I'm considering both Masterbuilt and Traeger?  As I mentioned, I may be able to get SWMBO to authorize additional funds if I the $600-700 is really worth that much more.

PS, Sorry to greenersport for hijacking your thread, but I figure my questions are just what you might like to know, too.

Focus


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## n4ynu (Aug 5, 2016)

Focus said:


> So I started looking at Masterbuilts and Bradleys as cost effective options. Based largely on N4YU's post above, I'd just about settled on a Masterbuilt 30 with cold smoke attachment + the AMNPS gadget. Seemed like that would be the best and most cost effective option for me. Then my buddy starts talking to me about his Traeger Lil Tex Elite...
> 
> And suddenly I'm smitten, but at nearly twice my desired price point. #0.1, He tells me it's electric, but only in as much as the heat source for the pellets is electric. Supposedly, they ignite/smolder and do all of the cooking themselves. The only power it draws is for the auger that feeds the pellets and the heating element that occasionally kicks in andrestarts the pellets, so less power than a 1200W element and smoke for "added flavor vs real wood as the cooking fuel. This sounds good, right?
> 
> ...


Focus,
I will be using the AMNPS Pellet smoker for smoke, so do not need the element to make the chips smoke, and it would seem that the element would only produce limited smoke from the chips unless high temp cooking, so went with the AMNPS which should provide more than enough smoke for up to 11 hours, so no opening the door and loosing temps.................

Not sure why someone would say "no smoke ring" unless they were experiencing the very issues that the AMNPS Pellet Smoker solves for cold smoking and low temp cooking.................

The MES 30 Sportsman Elite has a 1500W Element and is designed for max 400 degrees

If you use the AMNPS Pellet smoker to solve the low temp smoke issues, or just use it all the time would make sense and then the smoke issues are gone along with not having to open the door, then at that point it is none the less no different than any other smoke cabinet, chamber or room, and if you use the Pellet Smoker, then you temps will be low without even running the element, plenty of smoke, it will make eats just like any other, and yes this is why I went with the Analog, hi wattage and rated @ 400 degrees, you can do anything with it  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






*And the extra wattage will ensure stable heat when cold as well, but going to have mine in the Barn, so it will not be subjected to wind chill or air blowing in any holes.

Hope that helps, the one I am speaking of is in my comments, any way you go you will be ok man, and if you take care of the Master Built, keep it dry and do not clean it with oven cleaner or acidic cleaners then it will last forever, leave it out in the moisture and rain, it will not last so long as it is not like the other ones you spoke of, built like a tank, but with reasonable care, it will last as long as you want to cook hehehe


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## jack l (Aug 5, 2016)

Jeffinn said:


> The Smokin-It 3D is a really great smoker. All stainless steel and backed by a 3 year warranty (1 year on the Auber controller and 3 years on everything else). The owner really stands behind his products.
> I purchased the 3D a few months ago and absolutely love it!


Jefinn, I am like many who have been smoking with charcoal and wood for years (decades).  If I were to buy an electric smoker it would be the 3D but I am just not sure I want to go that route as well.  I figured I could smoke salmon, turkeys and a brisket with it but just not convinced I am going to get the same flavor from my old iron cast smoker.


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## old sarge (Aug 5, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Well! This is news to me. You forsook your Cookshack Amerique for a Smokin-It? What happened to motivate you to make the change? But I tell you, if I had it in my budget and wanted to stick with electric smokers I'd be looking at a Cookshack or a Smokin-It. Some people like the Smokin-Tex, which looks very similar to a SI smoker. But from what I've read SI has the better line of smokers and their prices are better as well. AI know that Cookshack is made in the USA whereas SI is made in China. That's the primary reason why CS smokers are higher-priced than SI because the both seem to be about the same in quality. SI has the better warranty: parts are covered for 3 years instead of two.


It is a long story.  Nothing wrong with the Cookshack. But I had been bragging up the SI line ever since I got one for my brother and witnessed the quality and reliability.  Its was time I had my own (street creds).  So the CS went over to my son's place (I have visiting and use rights which I exercise regularly) and I acquired a 3D. No regrets. I am calling the quality of material and build comparison between the two dead even, with the CS having a slight edge on capacity by weight which I consider subjective.  As for amenities, the SI does have larger wheels, a longer cord and the racks are stainless. It is a lot of smoker for the money.   And then there is the warranty. To be perfectly honest, you cannot go wrong with a unit from SI, or CS.  It is a matter of budget.


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## focus (Aug 6, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> The MES 30 Sportsman Elite has a 1500W Element and is designed for max 400 degrees



I just found the MES 30 Sportsman Elite.on the Dick's site: http://m.dickssportinggoods.com/pro...c055aQ3tcj0UQB2p2DceeGeQ4AFkV12Ah5BoCC8Hw_wcB

It says only 800W. Where did you get the 1500W info from?  Am i looking at the right MES 30 SE


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## n4ynu (Aug 6, 2016)

greenersport said:


> If I were to buy an Electric smoker should I get?  I see Charbroil has some new models?  Masterbuilt?  I think the Bluetooth and temp monitoring would be nice.  Looking for advice.
> 
> Thanks!


Master Built is nice, check out my profile for some info on the Analog Version, if you like the electronics then that is fine, but I went Analog and the MES 30 Sportsman Elite, I have a few MODs up and more coming, not that I am the first one, everyone is posting MOD's here, that is what makes it so cool here, the people here like to help and they do not mind taking time to share MODS and Recipe's and Tips and Tricks, Best Forum on the Web !!!!!

The reason I went with the Analog is you can get a nice Dual Probe Remote In Oven Temp Probe that will do all the electronics on the units will do, and some do more, and they come Wireless, RF and Bluetooth, so my take was, why spend money on the electronics when the Probe does all that, and you can get one like that for right at or just under 50 bucks !!!

So if you like electronics then go electronic, if you want to save and do the same job with less overhead if the control panel fails then go Analog and get a Probe.

Other than that there are many Brands, if you got money to burn, it is like boating, you can spend all kinds of money hehehe, what I think it really boils down to is the budget or if you are like me, knowing I can replace both the Element and the Temp Controller for under 50 bucks instead of a "Digital Controller for well over 100 bucks, I like to have spares so if I have a failure I can replace and get back cooking, smoking or dehydrating.

Lots of choices, brands have some differences but in the end, same great eats, and they are basically core wise no different, just a different look, diff configuration and or diff fuel, the MES 30 also has a 1500W Element and is rated for Cooking Temps of 400 degrees.

And if you are planning on making some Jerky, it is nice because the AMNPS Pellet Smoker is just enough heat to drive the temp to about 120-130 depending on outdoor temp without even using the electric element, I considered that pretty cool, but again, and Brand could do this, just your preference.

Master Built has Awesome Customer Support as I have been wearing them out LOL on MOD parts and they are really nice, they sent me my Side Supports for my Rack MOD Free, of course they were shipping me some Racks for the MOD but that was very nice, and they are nice, they do not rush you or treat you like a bother, I was very impressed.

***** Important Note - unless you are really impatient or maybe excited hehehe, order your extra racks or anything you need like spare controller or elements, get them from Master Built, you will save pretty much even with shipping, example is if you get the "Accessory Rack Kit" at a retailer, it is $20, yet Master Built sells singles for $7.95, and if you order more than a few they might knock the price down on the per rack price, they did for me, I was like WoW !

Anyway, take your time, look at the jungle of models and brands and get what you want, if you go to my profile I have a lot of reading you could do on the MES 30, and with the rack MOD it has 8 racks :), make sure you figure in the amount of cooking you want to do, if you have 50-100 peeps for parties, you may want something larger that the MES 30, or any 30 model size, the 40's are larger but the rack area not really that much different, thats why I went with the 30 and did the MOD.

It is a cool little unit and easy to service if there is a failure, and most of all, cheap to replace, I have done service all my life, so I like units that are easy to service, if the element dies, I can replace in less than 5 mins with one tool, and the food can still be in there lol, as for the temp controller, it is like a electric skillet control, just plugs in, so no wiring to go bad, or wire connections, it is really simple and then with the dual in oven probe you can walk away and watch your time, meat temps, internal smoker cabinet temps, hi and low temps, it does everything but cuddle with ya at night.


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## n4ynu (Aug 6, 2016)

Focus said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > The MES 30 Sportsman Elite has a 1500W Element and is designed for max 400 degrees
> ...


Focus,

The Link you have there is for the MES 30 Sportsman Elite Digital Electric, you want to look at the MES 30 Sportsman Elite Analog Electric, that is why the Wattage is Lower, there will be no digital controller, dual probe in oven temp probe will do all that the digital version does, that is why I passed, why not save the money and let the probe do it ..............

Sorry so long, been a long day, out all day, outside that is, wife had a yard sale, I seasoned my smoker and made some wicked trial chicken the likes of I have never had.............more on that adventure tomorrow, I have to go to bed but will be in here in the morning posting my Seasoning, Testing and Trail Chicken Run...............these chicken breast were ......................oh my .................................

Look in my comments at the bottom, all my equipment is there with links, at least as much as I could get in there, we need more text allotment, we have lots of toys LOL

Here is the link, and I am using the AMNPS Pellet burner, the little rectangular one, it works flawless, had it burning all day, but I digress and will cover that tomorrow hehehe

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Masterbuilt-Sportsman-Elite-Black-Analog-Smoker/1627128.uts 

I did a RACK MOD on this Unit, 8 racks, and some other simple ones, have a couple more to come this week, check out the "Albums I have in my Profile, here is the link for the RACK MOD if you want to see it

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/g/a/299516/mes-30-rack-and-amnps-mod/

*** Just beware, when you go to Cabela's to get this, you may want to open the box, the picture on the box (unless they have changed it and I doubt the change would be rotated out yet) will be wrong, it will show the 4 racks evenly spaced to the top, but what is in the box will be this 
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/g/i/483260/oem-out-of-the-box-w-3-racks/sort/display_order/  , as you can see it is 3 racks with 2 slots for the "Rack Accessory Kit" so you can upgrade to five, with the MOD I did it allows 8 evenly spaced to the Top of the Smoke Box.

 
I got one of the assistants in there and opened to make sure, they were also surprised it was not the same as the pic.

Just make sure it says it comes with 3 racks and is Expandable to 5, that is the key, and if I were you, I would open the box and check.

Just wanted to be sure the one on the box was not in there hehehe, I wanted the upgradeable one, as I had already reversed engineered everything I needed for the MOD before I bought it 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




 

If you want to do the MODS for the 8 racks make sure that is it, I have talked to Master Built about this and they are supposed to be addressing it,


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## sigmo (Aug 7, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Not a watt-burner here, I just never wanted to go that route. I've read that Masterbuilt has great customer service...haven't read much about the rest you mentioned.
> 
> While the units with more convenience and features may be appealing, they are more complicated...complicated translates to higher potential for problems down the road when compared to just a simple rig with temp controller.
> 
> ...


Hello, all.

I just thought I'd point something out that is not obvious to many people, but is very important when attempting to do a “boiling point of water” calibration or test of a thermometer.

That is, that the barometric pressure reported by weather websites, news, and weather reports, etc. is NOT the actual barometric pressure!

Instead, what is reported for the purposes of weather prediction is barometric pressure “corrected to sea level” or “reduced to sea level”.

The main reason for this is that these barometer readings are used to predict air movement (wind) speeds and directions, and thus movement of fronts, storms, etc. And for this to work out, you need to know what the barometric pressure would be, at any given location, IF YOU DRILLED A HOLE in the ground down to sea level, and lowered a pressure sensor to the bottom of that hole!

So when you tune into the radio, TV, or look on-line at a weather website or news site, the barometric pressure you see reported is this “corrected to sea level” pressure, NOT the actual barometric pressure at your location.

What you need is what they call the “station pressure”. Sometimes you can get this from websites or weather stations who provide this information for aviation purposes. People flying in or out of an airport need to know the actual barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity so they will know the air density, and thus the amount of “lift” they can expect.

For laboratories or people calibrating thermometers, etc., we also need to know this “station pressure”. And it's harder to find than most people realize!

So when you use one of these on-line calculators or a chart, always keep this in mind!

I live at around 5300 feet above sea level. Water boils at around 102-103°F depending on the barometric pressure at the time. Yet if I look at any local weather report, I'll see that they want us to think that the barometric pressure is around 30” of mercury. In fact, it's always closer to 24.6” of mercury.

So use the charts that give pressure versus elevation. Or use the calculators that have you enter your elevation. And always do a sanity check. You should know approximately the range of possible “real” barometric pressures at your location. If you are at a high elevation, and someone tells you that the barometric pressure is something like 29 or 30 inches of mercury, you KNOW they're giving you the “corrected to sea level” number and not the real number.

So ask for or find a source for your local “station pressure” when using a boiling point calculator.

Also: If you want a good text describing how to properly prepare and use a water ice-point reference, search for and download NIST Special Publication 819 “A Procedure for the Effective Recalibration of Liquid-in-Glass Thermometers.” PDFs are available for download.

This is an excellent publication.


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## forluvofsmoke (Aug 8, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > Not a watt-burner here, I just never wanted to go that route. I've read that Masterbuilt has great customer service...haven't read much about the rest you mentioned.
> ...


Yes, I agree 100%. I have used a analog altimeter to aid with land-navigation in conjunction with topographic maps. The altimeter accuracy was a constantly changing variable due to weather related barometric changes. It would get frustrating to see the altimeter reading change by 1,000 ft or more overnight due to low or high pressure weather systems. Obviously, altimeters have limited use when trying to find yourself on a map using topography as a reference...I learned to triangulate with topography features because the altimeter was painfully inaccurate...then along came GPS...end of story.

For the purpose of thermometer calibration, yes, the elevation/boiling-point charts are about the best tool we have available. It's basically a guestimation, and will get you close enough for most cooking situations, short of Sous-Vide or other applications where extreme accuracy is desired. Even if you calibrated @ 2,000ft and are now cooking @ 6,000ft your thermometers will only be off a few degrees...that's not enough to really be concerned when using basic cooking processes.

On the other hand, if you were slowly cooking food just up to the minimum safe internal temperature per US Food Code, and found out that your food thermometer was reading higher than actual temperature by, say 5-6*F, well, now, that's a game-changer. Why would this matter? Because there is little to no margin for error when cooking to the minimum standards as set in the publication which guides the professionals...things change considerably when cooking food that is intended to be served to the public.

The main reason we calibrate our food and cook chamber thermometers is to have reasonable assurance that we are cooking at a given temperature to a given finished internal temperature of the food. Some folks don't use thermometers at all...all I can say is that they're either very brave or they know their cooker and food very well and are far better at the entire process through the use of their senses than I'll probably ever be. Sure, you can cook without a thermometer...I do that all the time with charcoal grills...you feel the level of heat on your hand based on the height of your hand above the cooking grate...simple and effective, for those who practice it. However, this is not a safety-critical practice due to the nature of the process...hot & fast cooking. Many old-school pit-masters use their senses to determine if their food is going to be cooked to their standards....it works for them because they practice it...every time they cook.

So, why do those of us less experienced with our cookers use and calibrate/verify our thermometers? We haven't honed the skills necessary to cook without thermometers, or, our cooker by design, does not allow the use of enough of the senses and skills necessary to determine proper cooking. We calibrate/verify for assurance that our food will be safe to consume, and, for timing when we expect the food to reach our desired level of cooking (still knowing that it's done when it's done). USDA, NCHFP and other organizations recommend minimum standards for safely preparing foods, and within these standards are built-in margins for error in safety, taking into consideration that, at any given time, a home cook will not have 100% accurate measurements in temperature.

I don't do the water-boil check as often as I used to...at one point in time I was anal about it...until I realized something needs to happen to change the accuracy, and to simply watch for the signs of possible trouble...then check it out. I always tend to check them whenever I have reason to suspect their accuracy may be at fault, and every new thermometer that I use gets verified. Obviously a dropped thermometer needs attention, and cookers that have been transported with thermometers installed need attention. Vibration and shocks are my biggest concern. Electronic thermometers can have issues even if the display shows a reading. In my experience, there is no such thing as a fool-proof thermometer. Just last month I had a digital thermometer head unit fail...I suspected it was possibly due to high humidity in the room...the display was showing partial characters and became unreadable...fresh batteries and a reset changed nothing...this head unit is still dead to this day, so it could have just been it's time to die...and so it goes.

Smoke on...

Eric


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## daricksta (Aug 8, 2016)

Frankly said:


> I just ran it on the higher end of the smoking scale (275F) with few modest sized hand fulls of mesquite/apple chips and had a decent looking ring - at least in some areas but possibly not all throughout.


Myron Mixon, who's taken over the BBQ Pitmasters TV show and is a top BBQ champion in his own right, prefers  to smoke at 275°F. With the MES, I don't like to "redline" it at that temp because I think it could wear out the heating element more quickly, but I have nothing to back up that opinion. Based on my research, you'll never get a real smoke ring using wood chips, even at 275F. Charcoal briquettes or lump charcoal work better than wood chips/pellets because they release carbon monoxide along with nitric oxide that interaction with the myoglobin in meat to produce a smoke ring. Now, you _can _produce a smoke ring burning wood chunks or even logs in a something like a Weber Smokey Mountain or a ceramic smoker or one of those offset smoker rigs. Not sure if it can be done in one of those expensive cabinet-style electric smokers than burn wood chunks or not, though.

I sometimes grill pork ribs in my Weber charcoal kettle grill over indirect heat, a few times with wood chips but lately with a wood pellet tube smoker. I've realized I've always forgotten to check for a smoke ring or at least didn't notice one. I try to keep the heat temp underneath the ribs to around 225-235° so perhaps that's why I never noticed a smoke ring because there wasn't any.


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## forluvofsmoke (Aug 8, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Frankly said:
> 
> 
> > I just ran it on the higher end of the smoking scale (275F) with few modest sized hand fulls of mesquite/apple chips and had a decent looking ring - at least in some areas but possibly not all throughout.
> ...


Anyone gets a smoke ring in an electric rig may have had a fluke...you need to produce most, if not all, of your heat for cooking with propane, wood, charcoal or lump...gotta be burning something. It would take a boat-load of smoke wood smoldering away to create enough nitric oxide. As I recall, smoking wood doesn't burn hot enough to create nitric oxide...something like 600*F on the surface, where it contacts the combustion air.  It takes enough to heat the smoker and get a good saturation of the smoke chamber gases...imagine that for a moment...what a cloud of smoke that would produce, huh? You gotta burn a lot of material to produce enough nitric oxide for long enough to achieve a decent smoke ring. I have noticed variations in my smoke ring due to ambient temps...warmer weather seems to produce less smoke ring, possibly due to using less fuel to heat the smoke chamber...this may be even more noticeable if the rig is sitting in direct sun with no wind.

A Weber kettle will produce a smoke ring. I got some nice pink inside my BB ribs yesterday on my OTG 26 burning Embers Briquettes and one medium chunk each of apple and cherry, then a handful of smaller chunks of hickory. Indirect heat with one fire in the back, lid venting to the front, ribs laying mid-grate...no fuss, no issues, even cooking throughout, and some great ribs for what little effort this smoke took.

Look for my Wild Hawg Rub thread...I'd post a link but don't want to jack this thread or get too far off topic...

2.5hrs @ 225-235* grate temps:













10 2.5hrs.JPG



__ forluvofsmoke
__ Aug 8, 2016






Finished...5.75hrs total...did a 4-1.25-0.5:













25 sliced.JPG



__ forluvofsmoke
__ Aug 8, 2016






Smoke ring doesn't mean anything, other than you cooked low & slow with heat from a flame or a smoldering fuel. It doesn't change flavor, texture, nothing...except for the look when you get inside. Some of us covet the smoke ring, for what it truly means...others may not care one way or the other. When I don't get a smoke ring, or it's shallow/faint, I usually changed my method or set-up of the cooker, and that is what effected the smoke ring. I've only smoked in propane or charcoal rigs...never electric, so I rarely don't produce smoke ring with Bbq meats when cooking low & slow.

Eric


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## daricksta (Aug 8, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Anyone gets a smoke ring in an electric rig may have had a fluke...you need to produce most, if not all, of your heat for cooking with propane, wood, charcoal or lump...gotta be burning something. It would take a boat-load of smoke wood smoldering away to create enough nitric oxide. As I recall, smoking wood doesn't burn hot enough to create nitric oxide...something like 600*F on the surface, where it contacts the combustion air.  It takes enough to heat the smoker and get a good saturation of the smoke chamber gases...imagine that for a moment...what a cloud of smoke that would produce, huh? You gotta burn a lot of material to produce enough nitric oxide for long enough to achieve a decent smoke ring. I have noticed variations in my smoke ring due to ambient temps...warmer weather seems to produce less smoke ring, possibly due to using less fuel to heat the smoke chamber...this may be even more noticeable if the rig is sitting in direct sun with no wind.
> 
> A Weber kettle will produce a smoke ring. I got some nice pink inside my BB ribs yesterday on my OTG 26 burning Embers Briquettes and one medium chunk each of apple and cherry, then a handful of smaller chunks of hickory. Indirect heat with one fire in the back, lid venting to the front, ribs laying mid-grate...no fuss, no issues, even cooking throughout, and some great ribs for what little effort this smoke took.
> 
> ...


Look for my Wild Hawg Rub thread...I'd post a link but don't want to jack this thread or get too far off topic...  You know, the way I figure it, what the hell? I've been involved in threads that mutated magnificently into topics of far-ranging oddities and other stuff. But I'm looking at your photos and you can indeed get a smoke ring from a Weber cooking at low, indirect heat. But I agree with you, smoke rings are cosmetic so I've never tried to attempt one. I just would've gotten a kick from generating one in grilled ribs so I could say "So that's what they look like in person!" But I brought this up because there are a few people on SMF devoted to generating smoke rings in a MES or something so they can post about their achievement here. I just want my Q--made in a grill or in my smoker--to taste really, really good.

I made a slow-cooked tri-tip roast in my Weber kettle grill that called for hickory wood chunks. I almost bought some. But seeing as how I have hickory wood pellets and a tube smoker I decided those would provide me with the same wood smoke flavor, and I was right.

Eric, are you a grilling purist like I am? To me, real grilling can only be done over charcoal. My Weber 22.5 inch One Touch Silver is my backyard buddy. We've been together a long time and made a lot of great stuff together. Yeah, this could be topic hijacking, but do you keep that vent on your Weber lid wide open or half closed when you're grilling low and slow? And while I'm at it, I buy the Kingsford Professional Briquets when Costco has them on sale in the double pack. Otherwise my preference is Stubb's Bar-B-Q Charcoal Briquettes. I'm not familiar with the Embers brand.


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## n4ynu (Aug 8, 2016)

I will surely give it a try when I do a roast, I have seen that ring many times on the char grill using the side burner and sticks for smoke, my test with the electric, I lit both ends of the AMNPS and got some pretty dense smoke and with 1500W I can do  400 degrees, so I think I should be able to pull it off on one of those high heat roast cooks hehehe

Time will tell, but I am like you, do not care about the rings, it is all about flavor, juiciness and tenderness, if I have all those...................I am successful 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I got the electric and AMNPS for low temp smoke and for low maintenance long smokes that I can set and forget instead of living out on the wood platform watching and maintaining temps, coal, chips etc, I will surely enjoy it, yes I will still use the Char Grill but not as much, I can sit and socialize and still have the killer flavs without all the sweat and bo lol, the chicken breasts I just did were better than any I have made on the Char Grill and I slow cooked and smoked them painting every time I turned them, this little electric smoke box is pretty cool and surprised me.

* I did just start using the wet brine so the breasts in the electric box with the AMNPS ( Hickory this time ) did have a advantage, cannot believe I have been missing out on brining so many years, glad I finally got on board !


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## daricksta (Aug 8, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I will surely give it a try when I do a roast, I have seen that ring many times on the char grill using the side burner and sticks for smoke, my test with the electric, I lit both ends of the AMNPS and got some pretty dense smoke and with 1500W I can do  400 degrees, so I think I should be able to pull it off on one of those high heat roast cooks hehehe
> 
> Time will tell, but I am like you, do not care about the rings, it is all about flavor, juiciness and tenderness, if I have all those...................I am successful
> 
> ...


Are those skinless, boneless chix breasts or are the skins and bones still intact? Last year I smoked a boneless turkey breast (skin on) in my MES 30. I didn't care about getting crispy skin but....the flavor...as long as I want to remain happily married I will say my wife makes the best roast turkey in our oven. But, this smoked turkey breast--smoked over hickory pellets--was superb. And it was the first time I'd smoked a turkey in an electric smoker. I got a 12 pound whole turkey in the freezer now, just waitin' till I'm ready to do it again.


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## daricksta (Aug 8, 2016)

old sarge said:


> It is a long story.  Nothing wrong with the Cookshack. But I had been bragging up the SI line ever since I got one for my brother and witnessed the quality and reliability.  Its was time I had my own (street creds).  So the CS went over to my son's place (I have visiting and use rights which I exercise regularly) and I acquired a 3D. No regrets. I am calling the quality of material and build comparison between the two dead even, with the CS having a slight edge on capacity by weight which I consider subjective.  As for amenities, the SI does have larger wheels, a longer cord and the racks are stainless. It is a lot of smoker for the money.   And then there is the warranty. To be perfectly honest, you cannot go wrong with a unit from SI, or CS.  It is a matter of budget.


Thanks for this, Old Sarge. Yeah, my quick research between the two smoker brands yielded the same results you posted here. If could afford it one of those would be my next smoker. Meanwhile, in real life, I gotta keep my MES 30 working as long as it's able.


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## n4ynu (Aug 8, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I will surely give it a try when I do a roast, I have seen that ring many times on the char grill using the side burner and sticks for smoke, my test with the electric, I lit both ends of the AMNPS and got some pretty dense smoke and with 1500W I can do  400 degrees, so I think I should be able to pull it off on one of those high heat roast cooks hehehe
> ...


Rick, 

They were split breast, very well endowed chicken, but they did not have much skin, in light of that, it just made the outcome more amazing, I did not baste or paint them either, 3 1/2 hr brine and right to the smoker and with little skin they were juicy as they could be and smoke flavor right to the bone, cannot wait to do some leg quarters with the skin, I might need my stomach pumped, this stuff was so blasted tasty you just wanted more and more, it was so good my neighbor is buying the same smoker and getting me to help with MODS and my other neighbor is buying packs of quarters and having me cook them for her and then giving me half of them, I mean, I know you hear it all the time, but these boys were wicked, ready to do the Jerky, then I am going to do some Bacon and of coarse hams, roast and turkey, I have done all that on the char grill but with this smoker it is just amazing, I was not sure the pellets would produce the flavor I wanted, was not expecting the electric with the AMNPS to exceed the flavor of the grill, I have slow cooked and smoked quarters on the Char Grill before many many times ( for over 6 hours ), and people rave about them, but these were better, period.


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## forluvofsmoke (Aug 8, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Look for my Wild Hawg Rub thread...I'd post a link but don't want to jack this thread or get too far off topic...  You know, the way I figure it, what the hell? I've been involved in threads that mutated magnificently into topics of far-ranging oddities and other stuff. But I'm looking at your photos and you can indeed get a smoke ring from a Weber cooking at low, indirect heat. But I agree with you, smoke rings are cosmetic so I've never tried to attempt one. I just would've gotten a kick from generating one in grilled ribs so I could say "So that's what they look like in person!" But I brought this up because there are a few people on SMF devoted to generating smoke rings in a MES or something so they can post about their achievement here. I just want my Q--made in a grill or in my smoker--to taste really, really good.
> 
> I made a slow-cooked tri-tip roast in my Weber kettle grill that called for hickory wood chunks. I almost bought some. But seeing as how I have hickory wood pellets and a tube smoker I decided those would provide me with the same wood smoke flavor, and I was right.
> 
> Eric, are you a grilling purist like I am? To me, real grilling can only be done over charcoal. My Weber 22.5 inch One Touch Silver is my backyard buddy. We've been together a long time and made a lot of great stuff together. Yeah, this could be topic hijacking, but do you keep that vent on your Weber lid wide open or half closed when you're grilling low and slow? And while I'm at it, I buy the Kingsford Professional Briquets when Costco has them on sale in the double pack. Otherwise my preference is Stubb's Bar-B-Q Charcoal Briquettes. I'm not familiar with the Embers brand.


OK, you're right...I've been in the middle of a lot threads that turned into a lot of great reads on entirely different subjects than intended, myself. So, a couple links are coming here. The frustrating part is trying to remember where you read it (or wrote it), and then, find it again for future reference.

Yeah, I guess I would say I evolved into more of a purist...not full-blown hard-core...I use what will get the job done given the circumstances, although recently have not cooked with anything but solid fuel...been about 1.5 years without food over a propane flame...and I feel better about my cooking as a result...just makes me
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





...maybe I was just a purist a heart and needed something to get things moving in the right direction. Well, right direction for me, at least. My cooking volumes are reduced from several years ago, and cooking style, methods and finished products have also evolved to some extent. I rarely foil meats...gotta get a killer bark on pork shoulder for sure...wet-to-dry smoke chamber method (with no foiling) was not just a fluke...I developed that method due of a perceived necessity. That's just one example of how my cooking has changed...to say I'm a purist, well, maybe so...if I had hardwoods to cook over as a heat source? Oh, crap, I'd really be a happy smoker...tend a wood fire for hours on end? Count me in...do all nighters every smoke I cranked up? No, that's pushing things too far...gotta mix it up and do it all, right?

I used propane  grills and one vertical smoker (GOSM 3405GW) for quite a few years, converted the GOSM to charcoal for awhile, then got a horizontal pit (SnP-40"), converted it to propane when my fuel consumption went through the roof from a custom tuning plate mod, then quit using it when I got the Smoke Vault 24. I could do just about...OK, scratch that...I could smoke anything I wanted to in it. Somewhere in there, maybe 7-8 years or so ago, I started grilling with wally-world special charcoal kettles...like the even cooking temperatures, and flavor. I chose a Weber OTG 18 kettle for a 10-year service award at work...oh, my, all hell broke loose after that. Great temp control, no matter what I was doing on it. I was hooked, I think for life, and just didn't know it yet. Propane just didn't give me quite the same level of satisfaction at the end of the day...flavor wasn't the same, either. Propane grills, IMHO, suck for controlling grate temps and providing even cooking heat across the grate.

Well, one thing lead to another and I bought a Weber 26.75" OTG 2 years ago...love that beast...then along cam the WSM 18 last fall...love it too. Oh, and I've had a Smokey Joe 14 for a few years now, too...needs a mod to keep the cooking grate stable, and you have to keep the entire grate covered with coals for the best fire control, but otherwise, nice little portable table-top grill.

Anyway, my second oldest boy grabbed my SV-24 a year or so ago to use at his house...I don't miss it, at all, sadly...cooked a lot of great meals with that beast. If I ever took on the challenge to cook for a large gathering again, the SV-24 would be nice to have around, but, I could change things up enough to make due with what I have.

Oh, I found a rotisserie kit for my OTG 18 last winter...been a great spinner ride...I've even fired up my smallest sine-wave inverter gas generator to power the roti-motor a few times, but still enjoying cooking and eating those spinner meals. I'm still trying to justify the additional ~$240 for a 26.75" roti-kit with 2 extra sets of forks to do 3 birds/roasts, or whatever, along with my 18 spinning another 2 of whatever...good grief, that would turn my OTG 26" beast into a really diverse cooker as well, with some pretty decent capacity. The two spinner-capable rigs, together, along with my WSM 18, and the SJ-14 on the side? Like, 3 18+lb prime ribs on a stick, and all the sides to go with it...yeah, it'd be awesome. What else could I possibly need for charcoal-fired cookers? Oh, wait...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





...did I just...oh, no I didn't just say that, did I? I shouldn't have asked that question. I cook on nothing but Weber for the time being...WSM and kettles with a little bit of everything for size and type. The kettles will do just about anything I ask of them, and I actually use them more than the WSM, although I really put the WSM through quite a workout last winter...documented in my I'VE GONE COMPLETELY DARK thread... that was more than a couple months of bliss, I might add.

Oh, Embers charcoal is a Home Depot exclusive...at least that's what I've read online...manufactured by none other than Royal Oak. It is a different briquette design/shape than I've ever seen before...they say it burns hotter (and longer), IIRC...I'd have to weight them on my digital scale and compare to, say, KBB and see if there's a difference in weight. I actually had some trouble getting temps up in the WSM with Embers last winter, repeatedly (so I'd sat no to hotter), but they do burn a long time, from what I was seeing, anyway. RO lump will kick out the heat if you want it to...Embers, not so much.

Anyway, that's me right now...taking this charcoal-fired cooking path where ever it leads me...just trying not to buy anything I won't get a lot of use out of, that's the kicker...I've thoroughly enjoy the ride, so far, and I don't see it ending any time in the near future. I plan on cooking over charcoal (probably with a Weber) when I'm retired and living full-time in a RV, while seeing all the places and people I want to visit...yeah, I think I'm hooked for life, uh-huh.

Oh, almost forgot to add: I keep my vent wide open when grilling or smoking, unless with some odd smoke or grilling cook going where I want to slightly decrease the draft and I don't want to mess with the intake setting..but I'm pretty careful to maintain enough draft to keep the smoke from getting stale. The only time I close it is when I've finished the meal, to kill the fire...intake gets closed then, too, of course...and as you already know, yes, you can kill the fire in a weber...even the little SJ-14 has snug enough fitted draft/intake controls to do that.

Crap, I digressed, a lot, there...but hey, you asked.

Eric


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## n4ynu (Aug 8, 2016)

I have cooked in a Brinkman way back and cooked up some wicked food but it was so small, had to get more grill area, then the Char Grill, 25 + years, and no I am not a champion pit master or anything, I guess you could call me a back woods smoker, only problem is now I am in the burbs .......................... I have cooked some serious meats on that jewel Char Grill, done parties here for 50-100 many times, and with the side burner, well you know, more good meats, but I have been tending fires in smoke houses on the farm, fires in the stove or the fireplace, or the potbelly stoves, I even had to tend fires in the Oven in the farm house...........cut more wood than I cared to ever see again and I still have a wood stove here, love em, and still cutting and splitting cords of wood every year, except now I use a splitter hehehe.
The Char Grill and even the Brinkman, I used charcoal, wood or charcoal with a smoldering side box, or the side box with charcoal and selected sticks, always have hardwood and used to have 2 apple trees before they had to go to make room for the barn and the veggie garden.............so I am seriously enjoying the break from the toil, and had no idea electric and wood pellets could do that, I was prepared to be disappointed, but I surely was not, and the reviews were rave for this poor little mostly naked split breast, we saved one of the breasts and have had some special testers to come by, about 10 of them, and each of them were stunned considering it had no bbq sauce, no basting, no spices added after brine, and virtually no skin on each, these guys and gals are Chefs, in their 50's, they are my toughest critics, kids are easy hehehe, I would have never guessed but I was blown away by the results also, just cannot wait to cold smoke and dry some jerky, got 45 lbs of eye of round ready to pick up fresh cut and not frozen, will get them cold a bit for slicing and then brine/cure, then cold smoke to maybe 130, cannot wait, that is really what I got this for, was for the Jerky and very long cold smokes or slow cooks so I could take a break, I need a break, I do most of my cooking, close to all of it outside, even winter, I enjoy that Char Grill when it is 20 or below hehehe, but if this thing can cook like that, it is going to be my new friend for a long long time !


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## daricksta (Aug 9, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Rick,
> 
> They were split breast, very well endowed chicken, but they did not have much skin, in light of that, it just made the outcome more amazing, I did not baste or paint them either, 3 1/2 hr brine and right to the smoker and with little skin they were juicy as they could be and smoke flavor right to the bone, cannot wait to do some leg quarters with the skin, I might need my stomach pumped, this stuff was so blasted tasty you just wanted more and more, it was so good my neighbor is buying the same smoker and getting me to help with MODS and my other neighbor is buying packs of quarters and having me cook them for her and then giving me half of them, I mean, I know you hear it all the time, but these boys were wicked, ready to do the Jerky, then I am going to do some Bacon and of coarse hams, roast and turkey, I have done all that on the char grill but with this smoker it is just amazing, I was not sure the pellets would produce the flavor I wanted, was not expecting the electric with the AMNPS to exceed the flavor of the grill, I have slow cooked and smoked quarters on the Char Grill before many many times ( for over 6 hours ), and people rave about them, but these were better, period.


Man, you're a-smokin' like a house a-fire! I don't smoke nearly that much. My wife love barbecue but not all of it. She loves when I make a perfect beef brisket, likes it when the pork ribs turn out great. But overall she isn't a fan of smoked meats and cheeses. So, I envy you.

Also congrats on those well-endowed chix breasts. You just learned how great food comes out of an electric smoker. Don't know if you used the water bowl (I never do) but everything comes out moist and delicious. And yessir! Pellets are just as effective as smoke source as chips or chunks. With the AMNPS there's no oversmoking like there can be with chips. I'll tell you again, mi amigo, smoked food that comes out of an electric smoker can rival most of the BBQ restaurants around, except for those which are the real deal. Even then you can still come mighty close.


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## daricksta (Aug 9, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> OK, you're right...I've been in the middle of a lot threads that turned into a lot of great reads on entirely different subjects than intended, myself. So, a couple links are coming here. The frustrating part is trying to remember where you read it (or wrote it), and then, find it again for future reference.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I would say I evolved into more of a purist...not full-blown hard-core...I use what will get the job done given the circumstances, although recently have not cooked with anything but solid fuel...been about 1.5 years without food over a propane flame...and I feel better about my cooking as a result...just makes me
> 
> ...


Eric, just want you to know I saw this but will come back later to read it when I have more time.


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## n4ynu (Aug 9, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Rick,
> ...


Rick,

I realize that now, but I have heard and read so much rhetoric about electric smokers and pellets are not as good as wood, but the sad part is, this thing produced better smoke to the bone than my char grill using the side burner, and personally I thought it might be a little worse than real wood or charcoal and dam, it is really better when it comes to having this tight little smoke box and the AMNPS, it has surely made a believer out of me.

And yeah we cook virtually all our meats on the Char Grill (till now hehehe) we go to a farm nearby every Wed and get Fresh ground beef and certain cuts and roasts, they are fresh cut and or ground, pork chops too, chops about a 1 1/4 thick, and then we come home and I Grill / Smoke all of the meat and we bag it and freeze it.
We were using zip lock and probably will keep doing so, but for jerky I am vacuum sealing that, slow thaw on the meats and when you open the ziplock, it smells like I just took it off the grill, yes the wife loves smoked meat, I have met a few that do not and would never understand why, we just say fine, more for us !  LOL

I am just still in disbelief it did a better job, I would have never thought...........................


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## daricksta (Aug 9, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Rick,
> 
> I realize that now, but I have heard and read so much rhetoric about electric smokers and pellets are not as good as wood, but the sad part is, this thing produced better smoke to the bone than my char grill using the side burner, and personally I thought it might be a little worse than real wood or charcoal and dam, it is really better when it comes to having this tight little smoke box and the AMNPS, it has surely made a believer out of me.
> 
> ...


OK, we're getting into the good, fun part of smoking here. It comes after you've put your meat in the smoker and have done everything you've read about. You also paid attention to the temp, opened the door (unless your smoker has a window) and looked at the meat to check its color and the AMNPS to back sure it's pumping out smoke (also confirmed by checking for smoke wafting up from the vent).

Anyway, the smoke is done because you've hit your target IT. The food's on the table and then on your plate. You dig in, take a bite and...hey--this is darn good BBQ! And you sit back and wonder and awe that you did it in an electric smoker over wood pellets. I've been there plenty of time myself. I've eaten at Dickey's BBQ Pit, Tony Roma's (for St. Louis Ribs but they're out of business in my area), a local BBQ joint (now out of business) and I can attest that the ribs that come out of my smoker are superior to all of theirs. I'll also pit the flavor of my beef brisket (still working on perfecting the bark) against those places as well, and other backyard smokers, too.

I think to cook anything well you need a cook's touch, a talent for it. Smoking meat is just another form of cooking. Yeah, you can follow recipes and tips and advice but you also have to have a knack for it, even just to sense when it's done. Or to have full confidence in your style of smoking. What a wonderful moment to put great Q on the table. You're getting compliments about how great it looks, then how great it tastes. And you get to joyfully think of what you accomplished with a simple "I did that." To me, that's what it's all about. I don't need to enter a BBQ competition to know that my Q tastes really, really good.


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## n4ynu (Aug 9, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Rick,
> ...


Rick, Amen to that, the knack can be learned, I have seen it happen, just like anything else, I guess you have to have a desire, a real interest, and learn, I have never been afraid of learning, but in the process of my life in and on, farms, hunting, woods, dirt bikes etc, I have been cooking since outside and on grills since I was 8 as well, yeah that is not brining, curing and smoking, but between indian guides, cub scouts, webelos, boy scouts, and guides, not to mention camping out, fishing trips since I was 8 as well, and I went thru that with my son as well, sharing again with him and all the other kids, so I have been building fires and coal baking in fires and pits, and grilling all my life, ever done a chicken in coals, mud packed using the "stomach timer"? hehehehe
I do not consider myself a top notch cook and mostly because of what you say, I do not follow recipes, yes by reading them and interpreting them, I learn how I want to do mine, and if I were to have a baseline recipe for different tastes or results ( I will do that once I get good and cranked up lol), I would rarely use it specifically, it would be a baseline, the recipe would never be the same, but when I run across those really good results, I do make notes, everyone else brags on me but I think I am ok, I am like you, and I can accurately judge the meat being done or what state it may be in IE- rare, medium or done by appearance, or by knowing how many times I opened the box and the temp variations as well and the effect it will have on my meat and more than just cooking time of course, more factors than that hehehe
But, bottom line is I am really happy I found SMF, and really impressed with all the fabulous people, just like you that are here, it is really nice.
I spent like 3 weeks browsing here and reading reading reading, then started a text file for info, I looked at some others, but here at SMF, it would appear the "atmosphere" is much nicer and people here are more interested in helping and sharing, I love to learn, that is why I can do a multitude of things very well, but not by ability, just a result of my desire to learn new things and never quit.

Now that I have digressed to the outer reaches, I just have to say, that the results are unbelieveable, I would have never thought, and really half the credit is the AMNPS Pellet Smoker, without the flawless flavor to the bone, it would only be half as good  LOL

I just cannot believe this little electric smoker and pellets did that, I could not even do that on the char grill................ and I have been using that with real wood and charcoal with the side burner box for 20 + years, it is just still amazing me, so glad I got this little jewel, this is going to be so much fun, and as you said, satisfying !


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## sigmo (Aug 11, 2016)

Quote:


forluvofsmoke said:


> Yes, I agree 100%. I have used a analog altimeter to aid with land-navigation in conjunction with topographic maps. The altimeter accuracy was a constantly changing variable due to weather related barometric changes. It would get frustrating to see the altimeter reading change by 1,000 ft or more overnight due to low or high pressure weather systems. Obviously, altimeters have limited use when trying to find yourself on a map using topography as a reference...I learned to triangulate with topography features because the altimeter was painfully inaccurate...then along came GPS...end of story.
> 
> For the purpose of thermometer calibration, yes, the elevation/boiling-point charts are about the best tool we have available. It's basically a guestimation, and will get you close enough for most cooking situations, short of Sous-Vide or other applications where extreme accuracy is desired. Even if you calibrated @ 2,000ft and are now cooking @ 6,000ft your thermometers will only be off a few degrees...that's not enough to really be concerned when using basic cooking processes.
> 
> ...


I think we're both on the same page with all of this.

I am something of a temperature measurement and temperature control geek..  Thermometer calibration is an interesting subject, but you're right. For most cooking, it doesn't need to be perfect.

However, something that the nerd in me made me buy a while back might be of some interest to those of you who are "thermometer geeks".  That's the Reference Thermapen from Thermoworks.  It's very accurate over a good range, and is amazingly affordable for something that's traceable and comes with a certificate.

I still keep my hand in the temperature measurement and control game, and wanted to have a traceable reference with high accuracy and resolution, but I didn't want to spend $1800 or more.  This little unit fills the bill for my current purposes.


N4YNU said:


> I will surely give it a try when I do a roast, I have seen that ring many times on the char grill using the side burner and sticks for smoke, my test with the electric, I lit both ends of the AMNPS and got some pretty dense smoke and with 1500W I can do  400 degrees, so I think I should be able to pull it off on one of those high heat roast cooks hehehe
> 
> Time will tell, but I am like you, do not care about the rings, it is all about flavor, juiciness and tenderness, if I have all those...................I am successful
> 
> ...


Brining seems to be a good thing!  And like you and the others, I've been pleased with the results that an electric smoker can produce.  With the AMNPS, and a few modifications, it's pretty failsafe.  I like being able to check the temperature of the chamber and the meat without getting out of bed when doing a long, overnight smoke, too!  :)


daRicksta said:


> Are those skinless, boneless chix breasts or are the skins and bones still intact? Last year I smoked a boneless turkey breast (skin on) in my MES 30. I didn't care about getting crispy skin but....the flavor...as long as I want to remain happily married I will say my wife makes the best roast turkey in our oven. But, this smoked turkey breast--smoked over hickory pellets--was superb. And it was the first time I'd smoked a turkey in an electric smoker. I got a 12 pound whole turkey in the freezer now, just waitin' till I'm ready to do it again.


I've had similar experiences with poultry.  The skin won't be crisp.  But I did a turkey a few years ago for Thanksgiving, and everyone absolutely loved it.  Very moist and tender, and a really nice smoke flavor.  I did it in the MES-40 using Pitmaster's Choice pellets in the AMNPS.

I brined it for about 20 hours before the smoking, and it really was one of the best turkeys I've ever tasted.  The skin was rubbery and useless, but that really didn't matter.


forluvofsmoke said:


> OK, you're right...I've been in the middle of a lot threads that turned into a lot of great reads on entirely different subjects than intended, myself. So, a couple links are coming here. The frustrating part is trying to remember where you read it (or wrote it), and then, find it again for future reference.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I would say I evolved into more of a purist...not full-blown hard-core...I use what will get the job done given the circumstances, although recently have not cooked with anything but solid fuel...been about 1.5 years without food over a propane flame...and I feel better about my cooking as a result...just makes me
> 
> ...


It's interesting to read someone else's "evolution" with regard to smoking.

I will say that for grilling, I prefer charcoal over gas or electric.  To me, one of the things you get with charcoal is an incredibly intense source of infra-red radiation coming off of the charcoal when it's just at the peak of readiness.  That cooks the meat in a way that I've just not been able to reproduce with any other method.

I think you could build an electric heating element system that would simulate part of the formula.  Ceramic or ceramic fiber panels with nichrome elements inside (like the panels used in the construction of a muffle furnace), that you set to any temperature you want.  That way, you could get that same sort of intense IR emission, like the charcoal produces.  But you wouldn't have the same super-heated exhaust as you get from the burning of the charcoal. You could have very hot air moving upwards, through openings between the small electric panels to simulate the hot-gas convection part of the equation, but it probably wouldn't be exactly the same.  The gasses produced by combustion of charcoal would be missing, and that might be important.

You get different colors from glazes when firing ceramics by adjusting the air to gas ratio in a kiln so that part of the process involves a highly reducing atmosphere.  And that gives you a lot of CO, of course.  We probably inadvertently get the same sort of reducing atmosphere when we cover the grill and turn down the dampers on the bottom of the kettle to throttle things back.  And that reducing atmosphere may produce flavor components that you just wouldn't get any other way.

You know what?  One of my all-time favorite tools is the old Smokey Joe.  We've used them for 40 years, and they can produce steaks like almost nothing else.  More often than not, I'm only cooking for four or fewer people, and a Smokey Joe, with plain old charcoal briquettes (burning well), is just the right thing for it.

I cheat, though.  I use a propane burner for a turkey fryer and a chimney thingamajig to get my charcoal going.  Nothing drives off the moisture and gets that charcoal ready faster than a few hundred thousand BTUs per hour of propane flamage! 


N4YNU said:


> Rick,
> 
> I realize that now, but I have heard and read so much rhetoric about electric smokers and pellets are not as good as wood, but the sad part is, this thing produced better smoke to the bone than my char grill using the side burner, and personally I thought it might be a little worse than real wood or charcoal and dam, it is really better when it comes to having this tight little smoke box and the AMNPS, it has surely made a believer out of me.
> 
> ...


I'm kind of in the same boat.

The electric with the AMNPS has become my favorite method of smoking just about anything!

How do you re-heat the pre-grilled or smoked meat?  I wonder if they might not be fantastic heated up in a sous vide setup followed by a quick sear.   MMMMM!

Had to look up your call on QRZ.  N7SEG here, by the way.


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## n4ynu (Aug 11, 2016)

Sig,

Another Ham ! 
In a smoking forum that has a little different meaning huh LOL

You know that infra red is also created by electric elements as well (not constant, but then that is why the electric is so nice, temp control !) and the convection too of course, but I was just blown away at the flavor and quality of the meat, so many years of woods and coals and I plug in a Smoker and do my best work with the least effort, I am still kinda confused about that, but not so much that it will bother me hehehe

I usually reheat smoked and grilled meat in what would be called a steamer, I have Cuisinart cookware, and have a real nifty "pot top" steamer that I can put a lid on, unless we are cooking for the month, that is the only time anything hits the freezer, once frozen in portion bags, just take out and simmer warm in the steamer, it does a really good job and will not hurt flavor, might loose a touch of color or glaze from a very slight rinse effect, but if you are patient that does not even happen, if it is something bigger we just go to a bigger pot and set the food item on a raised grate on the bottom of the pot, top cracked, and it is moist and not hot per say, you can make it that way, but I just go nice and warm, I do not like re-cooking stuff over and over.

Every time I grill / smoke, unless it is for the months burgers and sausages, there is never any leftover anyway, when that food hits the table, it is all gone and you may see a couple or two "rolling" out the front door or down the driveway from the backyard if we are outside LOL, and yes that includes me, I can eat smoked meats like a shark, just slower to enjoy the flavor, it would seem all my friends have the same trait, so really, never have any leftovers, not even the turkey, maybe enough ham to make a couple of sandwiches LOL.

But this years Turkey and Ham will be a step up, neighbor is going to deep fry one and I am going to brine and smoke one, we are going to have a cook off ROFLOL

Nice to see another HAM, I will be getting my equipment back up soon, miss chatting with the locals and the little bit of DX I get involved in, maybe when I finally get the shack back in order after all this rock and trim work, I may actually have more time seeing I will not be working on the house all the time, this job has been tough but rewarding, 100 degree month and my electric bill was only $110 and I keep the house 74 degrees, so paying off big time, only bad thing about the electric smoker though, not free like the wood...............but for jerky I will not even be using the element and for cooking, well it will be worth a few more dollars for those delectable eats !

73's my Friend

Guy


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## daricksta (Aug 11, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Rick, Amen to that, the knack can be learned, I have seen it happen, just like anything else, I guess you have to have a desire, a real interest, and learn, I have never been afraid of learning, but in the process of my life in and on, farms, hunting, woods, dirt bikes etc, I have been cooking since outside and on grills since I was 8 as well, yeah that is not brining, curing and smoking, but between indian guides, cub scouts, webelos, boy scouts, and guides, not to mention camping out, fishing trips since I was 8 as well, and I went thru that with my son as well, sharing again with him and all the other kids, so I have been building fires and coal baking in fires and pits, and grilling all my life, ever done a chicken in coals, mud packed using the "stomach timer"? hehehehe
> I do not consider myself a top notch cook and mostly because of what you say, I do not follow recipes, yes by reading them and interpreting them, I learn how I want to do mine, and if I were to have a baseline recipe for different tastes or results ( I will do that once I get good and cranked up lol), I would rarely use it specifically, it would be a baseline, the recipe would never be the same, but when I run across those really good results, I do make notes, everyone else brags on me but I think I am ok, I am like you, and I can accurately judge the meat being done or what state it may be in IE- rare, medium or done by appearance, or by knowing how many times I opened the box and the temp variations as well and the effect it will have on my meat and more than just cooking time of course, more factors than that hehehe
> But, bottom line is I am really happy I found SMF, and really impressed with all the fabulous people, just like you that are here, it is really nice.
> I spent like 3 weeks browsing here and reading reading reading, then started a text file for info, I looked at some others, but here at SMF, it would appear the "atmosphere" is much nicer and people here are more interested in helping and sharing, I love to learn, that is why I can do a multitude of things very well, but not by ability, just a result of my desire to learn new things and never quit.
> ...


I admit I follow recipes for the most part but I might adjust dry rubs or bbq sauces to more suit my tastes or if by the remotest of chances some ingredient is missing from our pantry. Did you read any Harry Potter or see the movies? There's a Room Of Requirement at Hogwarts which is anything you need or want it to be. Our pantry is our Room Of Requirement. It's taken years but we've built up a stock of everything dried or liquid needed to cook almost any recipe in any cuisine. A couple of weeks ago I made a pork ribs dry rub from a Ray "Dr. BBQ" Lampe cookbook and every single required ingredient was in our pantry. My wife and I are both avid home cooks and these are the tools of our trade, so to speak.

I can whip up seasonings for burgers and some grilled Mexican stuff on my own but for the most part I need recipes to follow to the tee or to adjust to whatever personal spin I want to put on the flavor profile.

I also have my own thoughts on brining, Smokey Joes, and reheating smoked meats. That's from a conversation with you and Sigmo in this thread.


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## n4ynu (Aug 11, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Rick, Amen to that, the knack can be learned, I have seen it happen, just like anything else, I guess you have to have a desire, a real interest, and learn, I have never been afraid of learning, but in the process of my life in and on, farms, hunting, woods, dirt bikes etc, I have been cooking since outside and on grills since I was 8 as well, yeah that is not brining, curing and smoking, but between indian guides, cub scouts, webelos, boy scouts, and guides, not to mention camping out, fishing trips since I was 8 as well, and I went thru that with my son as well, sharing again with him and all the other kids, so I have been building fires and coal baking in fires and pits, and grilling all my life, ever done a chicken in coals, mud packed using the "stomach timer"? hehehehe
> ...


Rick,

I want to do the same thing pantry wise, that is cool you have that !
I am sticking to wet brining / cure for now, I may try dry rubs one day but I am totally sold on the wet brine and the effects on the meat to the bone, it seems to be a bit better and I do not mind waiting to drool LOL
And I do the same with recipes, I do not follow all of it though, as you said, I may be missing something or may want to substitute and try for a different flavor combo, I love cooking and whipping up a recipe without a recipe hehehehe
I have a ways to go on the pantry though, we have a ton of varied spices but they are all very small quantity, I want larger, more organized and more varied spices and seasonings, I jumped in this Electric Smoker venture, and have done enough damage to the budget for now, but I will continue to get a couple more bulk spices every month, maybe more, depends, so I have a varied types of spices and seasonings, so I can do like you are doing and just walk in and know it is there 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





But for now, I am good on the basics and I have enough to make good brines for meats and poultry and I cannot wait till I can taste the Jerky, that will be brined and cured wet, going to pick up meat this coming Wednesday from the farm, had to push it back, I want to have a batch that the meat has not been frozen at all, to see if there is a difference in taste of texture of the Jerky, just for fun hehehe

Got my Smoke Stack on yesterday, which I did primarily for Jerky to speed the drying process, as well I will be drying some veggies and fruits and that extra air will be helpful as well for that :

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/g/a/300398/mes-30-sportsman-elite-smoke-stack-mod/  

I am just not happy unless I am aggravating engineers with MODS................................. ROFLOL..........a couple of my good friends are engineers, we have some real fun, I was a engineer in the military, but we were building and blowing up anything and everything, loved it !


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## 801driver (Aug 14, 2016)

[h1]greenersport[/h1]
Thanks for the simple question, and for all the detailed responses that followed.  Yes, you have found the web site for information and opinions, hope you do not get overloaded, lots of great information here.

I have had the Smoke-it #2 electric about 3 years now and I am very satisfied with it all all ways except I had to raise it up to a more comfortable loading level.  The quality is great, no tweaking, bending, sealing, or anything else.  Just put a couple small wood chunks in, load it up, turn it on and let it run.  We like extra smoke, but I have not seen a need for an amps or anything extra like that for our use, I have put a couple more chunks in after an hour or so to get more smoke if needed.

I came out of the process control industry where a couple degrees swing might be a problem.  I have the manual temp controller, on/off like your oven.  Fretted over it a very short time, now I set it to 225 and let it swing a few degrees back and forth, so what?  Some people smoke at 225, some 250, some higher, do what works for you.  On long smokes it keeps things more steady than I can stay awake and watch what it is doing.  I just set it and forget it till the IT beeper goes off.

At first I missed seeing the smoke ring, but tried to do a blind taste test, neither one of us could tell a difference.  Charcoal with wood logs did give a little dryer crust..

Let us know what you decide and keep us updated..

Ken WB5Y  ( another Ham Radio operator here also from Oklahoma ) .


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## sigmo (Aug 16, 2016)

That's pretty neat!  Three hams in just this one thread.  Not to mention all of the other fantastic forum members.

Howdy to you all.

I always learn a lot whenever I visit these forums.  And I enjoy tinkering and solving problems.  So this is a lot of fun to play with as well as making some fantastic meals!

Guy:  You're in for some real treats with both the smoked and the deep fried turkeys!  We've done them both ways, and while different, they all came out just great.

Cooking is a lot of fun as well as being satisfying when doing the eating.  There's a lot of technical detail, and I think that appeals to many of us technical geeks.  Maybe that's why we see a lot of hams among the ranks here.

Ken:  That Smoke It seems like a great piece of equipment.  I've read a little about them, and they seem nice, indeed!

Rick:  My wife and I have been gathering more and more "essentials" to the point that we recently had to remodel our kitchen and some of the surrounding area in our smallish house, primarily to make for more "pantry" space.  It's just nice to have what you need already on hand most of the time.  Of course, you can never have everything you need, but you can work toward it!

What a great forum!


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## daricksta (Aug 16, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> That's pretty neat!  Three hams in just this one thread.  Not to mention all of the other fantastic forum members.
> 
> Howdy to you all.
> 
> ...


Sigmo, it's taken us about 10 years to gather all the stuff in our pantry. By "pantry" I'm also referring to kitchen cabinets with even more spices, baking stuff, and other stuff. Yes, even though we've amassed a formidable stockpile of ingrediments [sic] we still need to buy the perishable fresh produce stuff but we have the core makings on hand for all types of recipes in many different cuisines. When it comes to smoking, a dry rub correctly stored can last at least a couple of years. I know this from personal experience. Homemade BBQ sauce can last almost indefinitely if frozen right. There are sauce recipes out there you can make at home that are easily as good as the commercial ones, even the sauces with bourbon.

I recommend this forum all the time when I talk to people who also own smokers. My Q wouldn't be nearly as good as it is without what I've learned here.


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## n4ynu (Aug 17, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> That's pretty neat!  Three hams in just this one thread.  Not to mention all of the other fantastic forum members.
> 
> Howdy to you all.
> 
> ...


Sig,

I cannot wait for the eats !
And I need to catch up with you and Rick on the slice and seasoning stock, I am jealous !

Getting ready to try the Jerky, then some Bacon and make sure I get some roasts and ham brining for the holidays coming up, gonna be a tasty year


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## n4ynu (Aug 17, 2016)

801Driver said:


> [h1]greenersport[/h1]
> Thanks for the simple question, and for all the detailed responses that followed.  Yes, you have found the web site for information and opinions, hope you do not get overloaded, lots of great information here.
> 
> I have had the Smoke-it #2 electric about 3 years now and I am very satisfied with it all all ways except I had to raise it up to a more comfortable loading level.  The quality is great, no tweaking, bending, sealing, or anything else.  Just put a couple small wood chunks in, load it up, turn it on and let it run.  We like extra smoke, but I have not seen a need for an amps or anything extra like that for our use, I have put a couple more chunks in after an hour or so to get more smoke if needed.
> ...


I am finding lots of Hams hiding in the clouds of smoke here on the forum


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 17, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> That's pretty neat!  Three hams in just this one thread.  Not to mention all of the other fantastic forum members.
> 
> Howdy to you all.
> 
> ...


Sig,

Forgot, I have been finding Hams hiding in the TBS here on the Forum hehehe
And this is a fantastic Forum, I mean what better to have in a Forum about Smoking meat other than some real Hams you do not have to cure


----------



## sigmo (Aug 18, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Sigmo, it's taken us about 10 years to gather all the stuff in our pantry. By "pantry" I'm also referring to kitchen cabinets with even more spices, baking stuff, and other stuff. Yes, even though we've amassed a formidable stockpile of ingrediments [sic] we still need to buy the perishable fresh produce stuff but we have the core makings on hand for all types of recipes in many different cuisines. When it comes to smoking, a dry rub correctly stored can last at least a couple of years. I know this from personal experience. Homemade BBQ sauce can last almost indefinitely if frozen right. There are sauce recipes out there you can make at home that are easily as good as the commercial ones, even the sauces with bourbon.
> 
> I recommend this forum all the time when I talk to people who also own smokers. My Q wouldn't be nearly as good as it is without what I've learned here.


That's the way I feel.  I've learned so much on here.  It really is fantastic to have so much experience and knowledge being shared by great folks.  It hardly seems fair to take credit when something turns out great after having been coached by everyone on here.  :)


N4YNU said:


> Sig,
> 
> I cannot wait for the eats !
> And I need to catch up with you and Rick on the slice and seasoning stock, I am jealous !
> ...


We tend to buy goodies a little bit at a time as things catch our eye.  Sometimes I still have to make a run to a store to pick up something for a recipe, but it's getting so that happens less and less.  Except, as Rick points out, for the perishable ingredients.

I'd like to try some bacon, too.  I got all worked up to try some a couple of years back, but still haven't tried it.  I have the cure #2 and #1, though.  So at least I won't have to run out to find that. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Quote:


N4YNU said:


> Sig,
> 
> Forgot, I have been finding Hams hiding in the TBS here on the Forum hehehe
> And this is a fantastic Forum, I mean what better to have in a Forum about Smoking meat other than some real Hams you do not have to cure


Well some of us may need some sort of cure, just not THAT kind!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





My son was in town today.  We talked about smoking.   He and his family are living in a place at 7200 feet elevation.  So I was wondering if he was having any problems keeping pellets lit, etc.  And he said he'd given up on pellets.

But his solution is that he breaks up some charcoal and lays in a layer of that on the bottom of his AMNPS, then soaks chunks of smoking wood in water, and sets them on top of the charcoal.  Then he lights the charcoal, and it burns along nicely, roasting the chunk wood as it goes.  He's been doing a lot of smoking there!  So I thought that was a clever way to make it work.

He and his wife are both hams as is my wife.  His wife's father is a ham, and he was really happy to find out that my son had gotten his daughter to finally get her license!

He does a lot of CW, and had a fantastic station when he lived here.  But the funny part is that his son, at about age 3, loved putting on the headphones and listening to CW with dad!  Years ago, my son was the youngest licensed ham in the state.  I figure his kids will be into it even earlier!

There really are a lot of hams on this forum for some reason.


----------



## jarhead1979 (Aug 18, 2016)

I used to have a cheapo brinkman smoker (actually, just remembered that I still have it...it's just out of sight, out of mind). I never had an issue getting a smoke ring or TBS. I would wrap wood chunks in foil, cut/poke holes in the top, and set a few in the bottom of the smoker between the spaces in the heating element. Worked well for me. Can't speak for the other models that have been mentioned in the post, but my neighborhood smelled like sweet smokiness and slow smoked meat every time!


----------



## gregor (Aug 18, 2016)

Lol took me reading the whole thread to understand ham was referring to ham radio ;)


----------



## daricksta (Aug 18, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Sig,
> 
> I cannot wait for the eats !
> And I need to catch up with you and Rick on the slice and seasoning stock, I am jealous !
> ...


Masterbuilt is shipping me a new controller. After it arrives I'm gonna try a great meat candy recipe I came across in a new cookbook we bought. Not sure if I'll ever try bacon but I'd sure love to try my luck at making some authentic New York Deli Pastrami.


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Sig,
> ...


I love Bacon, so does the wife, have to make some Bacon !!!
Meat candy sounds illegal hehehe, I will have to ask you about that some time


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

Jarhead1979 said:


> I used to have a cheapo brinkman smoker (actually, just remembered that I still have it...it's just out of sight, out of mind). I never had an issue getting a smoke ring or TBS. I would wrap wood chunks in foil, cut/poke holes in the top, and set a few in the bottom of the smoker between the spaces in the heating element. Worked well for me. Can't speak for the other models that have been mentioned in the post, but my neighborhood smelled like sweet smokiness and slow smoked meat every time!


Jarhead

That is all I used for years, used to put the charcoal all the way in the bottom and slow cook, would always use a pan of water, it made the best eats in the world, could not make allot though, so had to get something bigger, moved to the chargrill, and now I find this little electric on does better than they all did lol, I still have my brinkman in the shop, take it on camps and fishing outings, they are real nice cookers !!!


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## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

gregor said:


> Lol took me reading the whole thread to understand ham was referring to ham radio ;)


ROFLOL, oh no, 2 different hams now, smoking one is good, smoking the other could lead to jail time or a very upset ham ROFLOL


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## daricksta (Aug 18, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I love Bacon, so does the wife, have to make some Bacon !!!
> Meat candy sounds illegal hehehe, I will have to ask you about that some time


You're not only more than welcome to, you're even MORE than more than welcome to! Quick story: my wife and I found this great little restaurant in Portland, OR. The owners are demi-celebrity chefs. They're about to release their first cookbook. The food was so good we bought an advanced, signed copy. One of the recipes is smoked meat candy. Yes, when I make it I'll post about it with Q-View.


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## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

> My son was in town today.  We talked about smoking.   He and his family are living in a place at 7200 feet elevation.  So I was wondering if he was having any problems keeping pellets lit, etc.  And he said he'd given up on pellets.
> 
> But his solution is that he breaks up some charcoal and lays in a layer of that on the bottom of his AMNPS, then soaks chunks of smoking wood in water, and sets them on top of the charcoal.  Then he lights the charcoal, and it burns along nicely, roasting the chunk wood as it goes.  He's been doing a lot of smoking there!  So I thought that was a clever way to make it work.
> 
> ...


I have read of doing that trick with charcoal if you have issues with the pellets going out as well, it is very interesting, but I will have to remember that tid bit in case I ever find myself near the summit of a peak smoking something hehehe

And that is really cool about your family ham history, my son was not at all interested in radio, it was all electronic gadgets and gaming, I could never convince him that some of the finest electronic gadgets were communications grade radios and gear, he used to be fascinated by me talking across the world but never interested enough to get involved, almost got him at a couple of DX Competitions off in the woods, but never stuck.


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## daricksta (Aug 18, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I have read of doing that trick with charcoal if you have issues with the pellets going out as well, it is very interesting, but I will have to remember that tid bit in case I ever find myself near the summit of a peak smoking something hehehe
> 
> And that is really cool about your family ham history, my son was not at all interested in radio, it was all electronic gadgets and gaming, I could never convince him that some of the finest electronic gadgets were communications grade radios and gear, he used to be fascinated by me talking across the world but never interested enough to get involved, almost got him at a couple of DX Competitions off in the woods, but never stuck.


Couldn't find the original posts. But my questions are: how large a wood chunk and how long does the chunk burn before it needs to be replaced? How many charcoal briquettes does he break up and how does he light them? Just curious because I don't plan to try this myself.


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## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I have read of doing that trick with charcoal if you have issues with the pellets going out as well, it is very interesting, but I will have to remember that tid bit in case I ever find myself near the summit of a peak smoking something hehehe
> ...


Sig will have to answer what his son does regarding size of chunks of each for the high elev stuff, but the article I read on it for the pellets is broken up briquettes about half the size of a marble, maybe a tad smaller, then just mixed with pellets, as the pellets smolder it lights the little bits of charcoal and keeps the pellets from extinguishing, I think most useful ( as I interpreted it ) in high humidity and when using water in the pan ( I never use water ), no need with brining. 
@Sigmo


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## n4ynu (Aug 18, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I have read of doing that trick with charcoal if you have issues with the pellets going out as well, it is very interesting, but I will have to remember that tid bit in case I ever find myself near the summit of a peak smoking something hehehe
> ...


Here is a explanation of the pellet version as opposed to wood chunks :
 

Recommended to be mixed with any flavor wood pellets in order to enhance the smoke ring on your meat and facilitates a hotter/cleaner burn. The charcoal, when burned, produces a natural nitrate that enhances the smoke ring, a characteristic that wood pellets lack.

Recommended Ratio: 1/3 Charcoal to 2/3 Wood Pellets

The Charcoal used above was "charcoal pellets" but the person actually just pulverises charcoal briquettes to about pea size and mixes them accordingly, and I am not sure about the pellets lacking the nitrate as if you are cooking over 250 or near the wood pellets blacken thereby being coal in reality so their burn should produce the same nitrates as charcoal, my opinion of course, once I do a roast we will see, low temps the pellets do not blacken, so at or below 200 you would not have that, but I have heard of many achieving rings with pellets, so not so sure of the charcoal tale.


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## greenersport (Aug 19, 2016)

Thanks N4YNU and everyone else!!  This info is really great, but overwhelming. 

I am leaning towards buy an MES and trying to figure out which one;

1. MES 30 with Front Controller (w/meat probe temp).  Lowes $199

2. MES 30 with Rear Controller (no meat probe) Lowes\Home Depot $199 ish

3. MES 30 with Front Controller (Bluetooth temp thing) Lowes $269

N4YNU - Can you post the part number for the stack mod?  A buddy of mine has an MES and has had great success with it (other than his pellets not keeping burning\smoking - air issue?). 

Really being new, can you explain\show me the AMNPS?  I would like to understand whether I should use the side loader or something else.  Even if I just get a slow smoke release it would be nice.

Thank you!


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## n4ynu (Aug 19, 2016)

greenersport said:


> Thanks N4YNU and everyone else!!  This info is really great, but overwhelming.
> 
> I am leaning towards buy an MES and trying to figure out which one;
> 
> ...


Greenersport,

Here is the Smoke Stack Mod :

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/g/a/300398/mes-30-sportsman-elite-smoke-stack-mod/  

AMNPS Pellet Smoker here 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/a-maze-n-products-pellet-smoker/1873479.uts?



All the Mods I have done are on my Profile at the bottom listed in the "Albums" and there are links at the bottom of my post in my "Signature"
I got my AMNPS from Cabela's but they are sold all over the place.

The AMNPS is cool because it does not require constant attention, if you are cooking under 250 degrees it will last about 9 hours, if low temp drying it will last 10-11 hours, when you cook over 300 degrees it accelerates the burn a bit by blackening pellets and the burn time is about 2 1/2 hours which is really plenty of time to cook anything at that temp, so any way you slice it, you just load it, light it and never have to open the door 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






, that alone is the the biggest perk, because every time you open the door, temps fall, then it has to recover which exposes your meat to higher temps and the recovery time increases your cooking time, so always best in my opinion to close the door and let it cook which the AMNPS allows you to do.

Now, on the models that have the auto feeder chip tube, you have to add chips about every 30 minutes and it has a separate heater for the chips, and for the models with the chip tray, they use the element to heat the chips, the tray is just above the "S: bend in the heating element and the chips get heated and produce a very light smoke, but this smoke is generally very intermittent as the only time the smoke is really generated is when the element is heating, which for low temp is not very often, and for high temp they work kinda well but they need replacing more often, and again the regular replacement time is 30 minutes.

This is why the AMNPS is so nice, fill the tray, and light, and forget, you have beautiful smoke consistently throughout the cook or smoke, and if doing low temp drying then just remove when you have the required smoke on the food you want and you can put them out with water and use the rest later, or refill to replace the used up pellets and relight and start again.

Now for the Smoker

I got the MES Sportsman Elite Analog from Cabelas on sale for $142, regular is like $179, I liked this model better because of the rack design, I have a MOD on my profile for that as well, here is the link :
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/g/a/299516/mes-30-rack-and-amnps-mod/  

I bought it for that reason so I could do the Rack MOD I had in mind and have 8 racks all the way to the top

And ........................

The other reason I got this Analog Version is for the simplicity, it has a 1500W element which is very nice, will cook to temps right at 400 degrees which is above what I would use but it clearly gives it a bonus as it has plenty of wattage to keep temps constant which it does very well.
The controller for this unit is like a electric fry pan controller, so you have no wiring in the unit to go bad and no controllers on the smoker that are pricey to replace, I have a extra controller and element in case they fail, both cost $50 total and a few bucks shipping, so very cheap, but bigger than that, if they fail, I can replace them in minutes, the controller in seconds, the element with one tool and 2 screws removed I can replace in less than 5 minutes and I can even leave the meat in the smoker, all I have to do is remove the bottom tray, remove 2 screws, replace element and re-install 2 screws, and with a pair of gloves I do not even have to wait for it to cool down and I am back smoking in a flash !

Now the other reason I went with the Analog is that I would buy a Dual Probe In Oven Meat Thermometer that was remote operated (wireless,infrared or bluetooth) anyway so I could monitor my meat and box temps, so I figured why get the electronics and spend more money when I could get the same without all the later wiring and electronic failure issues I have read about in forums, now some have had a long life but many have failure issues and wiring issues early and I did not want to deal with that, so I got the Analog and did the MODS, and I am a happy happy camper and can use my wireless Dual Probe Meat Thermometer at a distance of 300 ft, so I sit on the porch while I am smoking in the backyard 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Now, if you do the Smoke Stack MOD you need to plug the original exhaust vent (that is in my MOD) and then you can use the plugged vent to route your Dual Probes into the smoke box without having to drill any holes or run thru door messing up the operation of the smoker with a big door leak.

And what made me choose this over maybe the Bluetooth is again I read many posts on many forums that showed people were not really happy with the Bluetooth Controller on the other units, so again, I did not want to deal with that, and again I do not like to have more potential for problems with electronics mounted on a box that gets pretty hot and then the wiring in the walls and base of the unit as well as a second heater element for the chips on the auto feeder version, I would rather keep it simple, and the Cuisinart Temp Probe I got for $65 at Lowes works great, and if I need a new probe, easy to replace !

In the end you need to make up your own mind, but whatever you choose in the Master Built Line I would get a AMNPS for sure, you will not be sorry.

Master Built makes a good product, taken care of should last years and years and years, hence why I was not going to spend considerably more on stainless or any of those other fancy schmancy models, why should I when this will do the same job and with the Rack Mod it has more rack area than most all of them anyway :)

My decision was reversed engineered, I did all the homework, researched the MOD I wanted to do (parts availability and price), researched all the models and forum posts on issues with each.

And his was my result, in the end, a 8 rack MES 30 Sportsman Elite with over 1200 sq inches of rack space, and total price of all the MODS and the Cuisinart Dual Probe Wireless unit is under $260

Hope this helps, check my profile, under albums, click "View All Photos" and it will show all the MODS, not sure why it only shows 4 now but anyway they are all there, just have to click on the "View All Photos" to the right of  "Albums"

Got to go stir my ribs in the brine and spray dome weeds lol, if you have any further questions, would be happy to help, will be back in a little bit 

And you can get the Smoke Stack by calling Lowes and ordering it, look in the Smoke Stack Mod I did and linked at the top of the thread, I give all the info you need to order that Smoke Stack  :)


----------



## daricksta (Aug 19, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Sig will have to answer what his son does regarding size of chunks of each for the high elev stuff, but the article I read on it for the pellets is broken up briquettes about half the size of a marble, maybe a tad smaller, then just mixed with pellets, as the pellets smolder it lights the little bits of charcoal and keeps the pellets from extinguishing, I think most useful ( as I interpreted it ) in high humidity and when using water in the pan ( I never use water ), no need with brining.
> @Sigmo


Haven't  found Sig's post but that's OK. I understand the theory behind the charcoal and from what I'd guessed when I read about mixing it with pellets that they would be smashed into small particles. Not sure if I want to try this because I would bet charcoal flavor would be imparted to the smoked food. Now, I love charcoal flavor when grilling but I don't think I want that as part of a smoked food flavor profile. Anyway, the primary reason why pellets in the AMNPS go out is lack of adequate airflow. Given that, I don't see how the bits of charcoal briquettes would keep burning in the same oxygen-poor environment inside the smoker. Seems to me they'd go out along with the wood pellets. Even though some smokes have been hassles with keeping the pellets lit, typically I eventually prevail.


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 19, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> But his solution is that he breaks up some charcoal and lays in a layer of that on the bottom of his AMNPS, then soaks chunks of smoking wood in water, and sets them on top of the charcoal.  Then he lights the charcoal, and it burns along nicely, roasting the chunk wood as it goes.  He's been doing a lot of smoking there!  So I thought that was a clever way to make it work.
> 
> He and his wife are both hams as is my wife.  His wife's father is a ham, and he was really happy to find out that my son had gotten his daughter to finally get her license!
> 
> ...





daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Sig will have to answer what his son does regarding size of chunks of each for the high elev stuff, but the article I read on it for the pellets is broken up briquettes about half the size of a marble, maybe a tad smaller, then just mixed with pellets, as the pellets smolder it lights the little bits of charcoal and keeps the pellets from extinguishing, I think most useful ( as I interpreted it ) in high humidity and when using water in the pan ( I never use water ), no need with brining.
> ...


Rick,

Sigs post above yours here in the quote, he does not give particulars but sure he would share some if he knows more  :)


----------



## daricksta (Aug 21, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Rick,
> 
> Sigs post above yours here in the quote, he does not give particulars but sure he would share some if he knows more  :)


That's OK, Guy. If I was really interested I could figure it out.


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 21, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Rick,
> ...


All good, like me LOL, I like to do the homework, then I remember a little better, but I have to take notes, brain injuries are not forgiving, when it comes to short term memory, I have been trying to get that back for 20 years now, it refuses to submit, so lots of notes and a hurricane of thoughts I keep alive so I will not forget too soon  :)


----------



## sigmo (Aug 21, 2016)

Sorry I've been AWOL from the thread for a while!

My son didn't elaborate too much about his use of the charcoal in the AMNPS, but he is at 7200 feet elevation these days, and wasn't having any luck just burning the pellets.

So he started breaking up charcoal (not sure if it's briquettes or lump), and placing it in the bottoms of the rows in the AMNPS.  Then he puts chunks of smoker wood on top of the charcoal.

He doesn't use the pellets at all.  Just wood chunks like one often uses when using a charcoal powered smoker.

He said he soaks the wood chunks in water first.  I used to do that when I was using a charcoal powered smoker, so it makes sense.

He also said he will often lay in different types of wood, so that as the charcoal burns along the bottom of the AMNPS, it burns its way under different wood chunks at different times so he can get a blend of different wood flavors over the course of the smoking session.

He didn't go into a lot of detail about the size of the charcoal chunks, but I'd imagine something as mentioned above, in the area of 1/4" or "pea" sized ought to work really well.  Charcoal may well burn better in a low oxygen environment than do wood pellets.  And as that charcoal glows under the wood chunks, it probably makes them smoke nicely.

I'm not sure where he came up with the idea.  He may have read about it, or maybe he's been in contact with other folks where he lives to find out how they get their smokers to work.

When I lived in Laramie, we had no problem grilling on charcoal.  So I just think it's a more positive and forgiving fuel than the wood pellets are.

Really, when you think about it, the wood pellets are kind of an odd thing.  On the one hand, they're meant to burn on their own, like a fuel.  But on the other hand, they're meant to smoke and smolder, the way chunks of wood do when you put them in on top of charcoal in a charcoal smoker.  You don't want them to burn too well, or you get no smoke.  But you don't want them to go out, either.

So they're always on that fine line between burning with a flame and going out!  So I do think they're kind of touchy as far as conditions of humidity, air density, temperature, etc.

It's sort of a miracle that they work as well as they do!


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## n4ynu (Aug 22, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> Sorry I've been AWOL from the thread for a while!
> 
> My son didn't elaborate too much about his use of the charcoal in the AMNPS, but he is at 7200 feet elevation these days, and wasn't having any luck just burning the pellets.
> 
> ...


I am finding they are a bit finicky, especially on these high humidity days we have been having out here and they seem to like the cook temps below 250 or they get char coaled and burn a bit faster, but have not had any flare ups with them, but I am totally impressed with the flavor from them and the consistent smoke, even though the high temps cause faster consumption, it is still far better than opening the door every 30 minutes which really destroys box temps and lengthens cook time rather drastically.


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## frankly (Aug 22, 2016)

Green - I am no where near as experienced and knowledgeable as the other guys posting here, but in my opinion - just go with option 2 and start smoking the way the instructions with it say to (along with some advice from here...).  You can buy the AMPNS and upgrade to other equipment later.  I think the best thing to do is just jump in at the basic point, experiment and progress up the complexity and then really figure out what you want to do long term.  That's been my approach and working well for me so far.  The MES with a back control (I assume is a Gen1) has worked well for me so far.


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## daricksta (Aug 25, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Here is a explanation of the pellet version as opposed to wood chunks :
> 
> 
> Recommended to be mixed with any flavor wood pellets in order to enhance the smoke ring on your meat and facilitates a hotter/cleaner burn. The charcoal, when burned, produces a natural nitrate that enhances the smoke ring, a characteristic that wood pellets lack.
> ...


Is this your post or a copy/paste of someone else's? My understanding is that anyone who uses wood pellets will never get a smoke ring, regardless of the cooking temperature. Wood pellets can't emit enough of the gases required to create a smoke ring. I think large chunks of wood could do it but offhand I don't know what the smoker or grill cooking temp would need to be.


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## daricksta (Aug 25, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> Sorry I've been AWOL from the thread for a while!
> 
> My son didn't elaborate too much about his use of the charcoal in the AMNPS, but he is at 7200 feet elevation these days, and wasn't having any luck just burning the pellets.
> 
> ...


Wood pellets can present problems with going out. I have that problem the most with cold smokes or with hot smokes at a low temp in my MES 30. I think it's more of an airflow problem within the smoker under certain weather/outdoor temp conditions. I can light a pellet tray and have the pellets burn and smolder for hours if I let it. Many times I'll put the tray in my smoker and the pellets will burn fine. Other times the pellets keep snuffing out until the interior temp gets hot enough to get the air moving around. But then there are times when even cooking at 250° doesn't help.

What your son did with the charcoal is exactly what some other people have done in the pursuit of a smoke ring. I wonder if pellets made from Jack Daniels whiskey barrels would do the same thing? Those are charcoal pellets, not wood. They're made from the charred insides of the barrels. There are people on SMF who use them but I haven't read of anyone reporting a smoke ring from those pellets. But then I don't read all the posts here.


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## sigmo (Aug 25, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I am finding they are a bit finicky, especially on these high humidity days we have been having out here and they seem to like the cook temps below 250 or they get char coaled and burn a bit faster, but have not had any flare ups with them, but I am totally impressed with the flavor from them and the consistent smoke, even though the high temps cause faster consumption, it is still far better than opening the door every 30 minutes which really destroys box temps and lengthens cook time rather drastically.


That's what I've run into.  In the past, with very low humidity (which is more normal around here), for both cold and hot smoking, I've had no problems as long as I pre-dried the pellets, got them burning very well, had the AMNPS up on the rails in the smoker so it's got good circulation below it, had the pellet hopper pulled out most of the way or even removed, had the chip tray open somewhat, and did NOT use the water pan in the smoker.

But recently, I've had the pellets go out, even with all of that done.  The one variable has been high humidities.  So I think the pellets absorb the moisture during the smoking session, and after an hour or so, they've absorbed enough moisture that they're no longer able to burn at this elevation.

But when it all works, it's great.  Nice smoke, not needing to open the door, and burning for a very long time, too!

I'll tell you what has made mine flare up, though!  I've been drying the daylights out of the pellets in our convection oven.  Then I light the AMNPS with a MAPP Gas torch.  That get's 'em going pretty good!  Then, I take a computer fan, holding it in my hand, to "blow" on the  pellets to REALLY get them going.  With the pellets so dry, and after using the fan to really get the cherry scorching along, they'll often burst into flames!  I can then NOT blow them out.  There's just too much hot smoke coming off of the cherries to not burst into flames.

I have to close the door on the smoker to get a reduced oxygen situation for a minute or so, and then I can usually blow the darned things out!  But this only happens because I've got the pellets so extremely dry at that point.  Since it's been humid, lately, this "problem" soon corrects itself, and then I'm back to having a hard time keeping them burning at all.


Frankly said:


> Green - I am no where near as experienced and knowledgeable as the other guys posting here, but in my opinion - just go with option 2 and start smoking the way the instructions with it say to (along with some advice from here...).  You can buy the AMPNS and upgrade to other equipment later.  I think the best thing to do is just jump in at the basic point, experiment and progress up the complexity and then really figure out what you want to do long term.  That's been my approach and working well for me so far.  The MES with a back control (I assume is a Gen1) has worked well for me so far.


That's probably good advice.  You've got to start someplace, and then work your way into things as you see what's working or not for you, at your location, with your weather and elevation, etc.

The AMNPS or (as I probably should get for myself), one of the tube smoke generators just adds a bit of control because you separate the smoke generation from the cycling of the heating element.  I'm going to start a thread about some of this, with one of the main points being that ideally, we set things up to have separate control over every variable to give us the most control.  But, again, you have to start someplace, and then learn what works best for you in your particular situation and with your particular preferences and styles of cooking.

I started with an inexpensive Brinkmann (ECB) using charcoal and wood chunks.  It actually served me very well.  But I soon modified it to get it to work better for me here.  And it worked even better for me for some time.  Then I got an electric because I had seen them at the local Sam's Club, and I had bought a big pork butt, and as I pondered it, I decided that I really should just go get the electric and give it a try.

Over time, I've tweaked things and am still tweaking and modifying things to try to get what I want.  The cooking and the results are fun and worthwhile.  And the tinkering with the process and the equipment is another dimension to the hobby, just like anything else.  It's fun to experiment, build things, and modify both the equipment and the processes.

This forum is fantastic because you get to see everyone else's ideas and inventions and you get the benefit of their experience and recipes!


daRicksta said:


> Wood pellets can present problems with going out. I have that problem the most with cold smokes or with hot smokes at a low temp in my MES 30. I think it's more of an airflow problem within the smoker under certain weather/outdoor temp conditions. I can light a pellet tray and have the pellets burn and smolder for hours if I let it. Many times I'll put the tray in my smoker and the pellets will burn fine. Other times the pellets keep snuffing out until the interior temp gets hot enough to get the air moving around. But then there are times when even cooking at 250° doesn't help.
> 
> What your son did with the charcoal is exactly what some other people have done in the pursuit of a smoke ring. I wonder if pellets made from Jack Daniels whiskey barrels would do the same thing? Those are charcoal pellets, not wood. They're made from the charred insides of the barrels. There are people on SMF who use them but I haven't read of anyone reporting a smoke ring from those pellets. But then I don't read all the posts here.


My experience has been just like yours.

High temperatures (or rather a large difference between the temperature in the smoker and the outside air) creates better draft up through the smoker.  If the air in the smoker cabinet is warmer than the outside air, then it will be at a lower density than the outside air, and that denser, heavier outside air will want to come into the bottom opening of the smoker chamber and displace that lower density air that's already inside.  That creates a good draft, and you get good circulation and fresh oxygen-rich air constantly siphoning into the bottom to keep the pellets burning.

I've had great luck cold smoking here when it's really cold out.  I've smoked cheese, for example, when it's cold outside because just the heat of the smoldering pellets warmed the inside of the smoker enough to create a draft.

I've done some cheese smoking when it was so cold outside (well below zero) that I had to intermittently turn the smoker on to keep the interior temperature up around 50 degrees F.  The heat from the smoldering pellets was not enough. (I need to modify the smoker so I can set temperatures to anything I want. The factory control won't let me set it below 100 degrees F, which is too hot for any cold smoking).

In both cases, I had good draft through the smoker, which kept the pellets burning just fine.  But, it's usually very dry here when it's cold outside.  So I had reasonable draft and low humidities.

But recently, I have had pellet burn failures due to high humidity.

In one case, I was making jerky at about 150 to 160 degrees.  But it was warm and humid outside.  So even though there was some draft, it wasn't enough to compensate for the extreme humidity.  I ended up using a small computer fan to force air through the smoker, and that helped both to keep the pellets going and to let me dry the jerky.  The poor draft and high humidity were making the drying take forever, but with the fan, it dried in just a few hours.

In another case, I was trying to cold smoke with no heat from the smoker.  So I just left it off.  It was about 68 degrees F out, but again, rather humid for here (about 40%).  Of course, there was absolutely no draft because the smoldering pellets weren't enough to create a good draft on their own.  Not enough temperature differential between the inside of the smoker and the ambient outside air, therefore, no density difference to create the convection draft.

So I used a small fan again, to force a draft through the smoker.  This made the pellets burn well.  Perhaps too well!  And it helped to keep the temperature in the smoker lower.  On the one hand, I could have used a higher inside temperature to get the draft I wanted, but on the other hand, I was smoking some butter, and didn't want the temperature to go above about 75 degrees F.  So the fan-forced setup was what I needed. I also ended up putting a pan of ice in the smoker to help hold the temperature down, and that worked beautifully.

I'm not an expert on the smoke ring, but from what I've read, it's a chemical reaction that you get between myoglobin in the meat and some products of combustion that are rich when you heat with charcoal, and to some extent with gas, but of course, not at all when you heat electrically.

Just the smoldering pellets or chips don't really create those products of combustion enough to get to the concentrations you need in the smoker to get a smoke ring.

And even if you used some charcoal to keep the pellets or wood chunks smoldering, it still may not be nearly enough to achieve the concentrations necessary to get that reaction.

But the "smoke ring" isn't really a good indicator of anything other than the fact that the meat was cooked in an atmosphere rich in those particular products of combustion.  It doesn't, in itself, give the meat any flavor, and it doesn't indicate whether or not the meat will have good flavor, either.  So it's just a visual thing only.  I don't worry about it at all because it doesn't affect the flavor or aroma of the finished meat.  But I do know that people are often conditioned to look for it.  You see the judges on those TV shows commenting on the "nice smoke ring" when judging the appearance of the meat.

They should do a smoked meat contest where only electric smokers are allowed!  Or have a blindfolded contest where the judges only rate the meat on its flavor, aroma, texture, etc.  No peeking!


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 26, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I am finding they are a bit finicky, especially on these high humidity days we have been having out here and they seem to like the cook temps below 250 or they get char coaled and burn a bit faster, but have not had any flare ups with them, but I am totally impressed with the flavor from them and the consistent smoke, even though the high temps cause faster consumption, it is still far better than opening the door every 30 minutes which really destroys box temps and lengthens cook time rather drastically.
> ...


I started with a Brinkman too hehehe
 

I start my AMNPS outside the smoker and let it get going well before I put in the box, the one time it was finicky was when I was doing 12 large chicken breasts, I do believe it was humidity but I opened the stack one notch and no more issues, and I am only 188 ft above sea level so altitude issues I think I am free from LOL

And I added the Smoke Stack which solved my air flow issue in reality as I can open it and induce a draft with very little heat, like the AMNPS, now if I just run the AMNPS, I open the Stack Damper all the way and get a very good draft, this is why I was planning to do that MOD when I bought this, although I liked the small exhaust vent it had, I also realized it would hamper drying as it was not in my opinion large enough to allow the needed air flow to dry well, and as well not enough to provide adequate air for the AMNPS as I had gathered that from reading so many posts.

And though it seems like so many seek the smoke ring, out of all the beautiful rings I have produced from my CharGrill on meats, I have never had a single person comment on the ring, only the flavor of the meat, I have never paid attention to it either, as you said, it has no effect on flavor and is just a result of certain cooking fuel uses, so I too agree with you when I say it makes no difference, it would be like judging meat on the color of the BBQ sauce rather than taste, juiciness and tenderness, I too agree that judges have no sense at all using that as a determination of a winning cooked meat, it is rather stupid if you ask me.

And as far as the charcoal, I would not use it to achieve the purposeless ring, I would use it to achieve what I had read in the article, that small chunks mixed with the pellets are ignited and burn hotter that the pellets as they smolder, thereby allowing the burning process over all to be improved, and many are saying it is solving their pellets going out issues, I will surely try it if I need to, but only once I have had the issue and the Smoke Stack damper adjustment took care of that  :)

My next mod will be that of a temperature control other than the type that is on the controller, it works fine but the issue here is the stat for the controller is in the nose of the controller, not where it should be in my opinion which would be higher in the box.
So I will be looking for a T-Stat with a remote bulb, and one as you pointed out would be settable to a temp as low as possible, not sure if they have one that goes down as far as 100 hehehe, but again I am like you, the lower the better, this way I will have a temp dial, again, I do not want electronics, the temp dial and remote bulb for the stat will allow me two things I currently do not have, a relative temp setting I can dial in consistently, and better temp control mid box instead of being governed by a probe that is in the very bottom of the box.

And yes, what fun would it be without Modifying stuff, I have lived modifying everything, engines in cars, motorcycles, small engines, various controllers in various electronic and electro-mechanical applications, not to mention my boat LOL.

All that said, got 10 lbs of chicken today and going to throw some smoke at em !

We have managed to miss the farm meat buying expedition for 2 weeks now, hopefully me and the wife can get on the same page this coming week for some eye of round for Jerky and maybe a couple of full briskets, can't wait !


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## n4ynu (Aug 26, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a explanation of the pellet version as opposed to wood chunks :
> ...


I am not concerned with a smoke ring but this is what I found on a thread where it was being sought after using pellets, but at the same time this thread was addressing the extinguishing of the pellets from low air, absence of external heat and low oxygen issues, it is said that by mixing the charcoal bits with the pellets that it stops allot of the extinguishing issues most were having with the pellets, but it would seem most were due to low oxygen issues, the whole reason I put the stack on my smoker, I have only had one issue where it extinguished, it was incredibly humid but all I had to do was open the stack damper one notch and it was solved


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## n4ynu (Aug 26, 2016)

Focus said:


> So I started looking at Masterbuilts and Bradleys as cost effective options. Based largely on N4YU's post above, I'd just about settled on a Masterbuilt 30 with cold smoke attachment + the AMNPS gadget. Seemed like that would be the best and most cost effective option for me. Then my buddy starts talking to me about his Traeger Lil Tex Elite...
> 
> And suddenly I'm smitten, but at nearly twice my desired price point. #0.1, He tells me it's electric, but only in as much as the heat source for the pellets is electric. Supposedly, they ignite/smolder and do all of the cooking themselves. The only power it draws is for the auger that feeds the pellets and the heating element that occasionally kicks in andrestarts the pellets, so less power than a 1200W element and smoke for "added flavor vs real wood as the cooking fuel. This sounds good, right?
> 
> ...


My MES Sportsman Elite will reach 400 degrees, it has a 1500W element, not all MES's are alike :)
Could care less about a smoke ring as it adds no quality or taste to the meat, just cosmetic, but when I get this Brisket cooking here soon will let you know, because I too have seen these produce rings, but again, I am not concerned with a ring unless it adds something to the cook besides feeding my ego that wants to be like everyone else, I am only concerned with the taste reviews, not cometic looks that no one tastes or even sees, my CharGrill would ring the crap out of everything, but one one ever said "nice ring man" LOL, but they always said, awesome eats man !
Just make up your mind, take your time, I just got this one because it fit my budget and will cook like all the others, and I did the rack Mod so I have 8 racks, and the Smoke Stack Mod so now I can dry faster and eliminate pellet issues in high humidity, before the Stack and the Humidity I had no issues with pellets going out, but when the humidity caused a issue I just opened the Stack one more notch and the AMNPS never went out again :)

My thoughts on your last comment is, if you have the money and want a Cadillac Smoker then get one, but these Master Builts will last the same amount of time with proper care and cook the same food.............the choice is yours  :)


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## daricksta (Aug 26, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I am not concerned with a smoke ring but this is what I found on a thread where it was being sought after using pellets, but at the same time this thread was addressing the extinguishing of the pellets from low air, absence of external heat and low oxygen issues, it is said that by mixing the charcoal bits with the pellets that it stops allot of the extinguishing issues most were having with the pellets, but it would seem most were due to low oxygen issues, the whole reason I put the stack on my smoker, I have only had one issue where it extinguished, it was incredibly humid but all I had to do was open the stack damper one notch and it was solved


Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.

MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.


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## n4ynu (Aug 26, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I am not concerned with a smoke ring but this is what I found on a thread where it was being sought after using pellets, but at the same time this thread was addressing the extinguishing of the pellets from low air, absence of external heat and low oxygen issues, it is said that by mixing the charcoal bits with the pellets that it stops allot of the extinguishing issues most were having with the pellets, but it would seem most were due to low oxygen issues, the whole reason I put the stack on my smoker, I have only had one issue where it extinguished, it was incredibly humid but all I had to do was open the stack damper one notch and it was solved
> ...


Rick,

See the MES 30 Sportsman Elite does not have a damper, well now with the new Smoke Stack I added it does, but this one has a fixed hole that is not adjustable and only about 5/8, maybe 3/4" ID, it is a sealing tube type collar that goes thru the double wall, hence why I put the stack on, but they are not considering using the pellet smoker either of course, I keep my pellets inside my house, maybe they stay a bit drier ????, not sure but I only had one issue so far, I believe it was high humidity and opening the damper on my smoke stack solved that, plus I reversed the bottom rack and put it in backwards, so this allowed me to get my pellets off the "S" part of the burner, when I was high temp cooking, it was burning the pellets up real fast lol, but I think I am going to put a regular rack on the bottom and center the AMNPS over the air intake in the bottom but raise it a bit to get it away from that element, I think centering it over the intake and raising it a little in the box to get it away from that element a bit more should help, but the biggest issue I would like to solve is get a real oven style t-stat set up, it is in the works, so I can set a temp and forget it every time.
You have a drip shield on your AMNPS ? If not it may be drippings snuffing your pellets.


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## daricksta (Aug 27, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Rick,
> 
> See the MES 30 Sportsman Elite does not have a damper, well now with the new Smoke Stack I added it does, but this one has a fixed hole that is not adjustable and only about 5/8, maybe 3/4" ID, it is a sealing tube type collar that goes thru the double wall, hence why I put the stack on, but they are not considering using the pellet smoker either of course, I keep my pellets inside my house, maybe they stay a bit drier ????, not sure but I only had one issue so far, I believe it was high humidity and opening the damper on my smoke stack solved that, plus I reversed the bottom rack and put it in backwards, so this allowed me to get my pellets off the "S" part of the burner, when I was high temp cooking, it was burning the pellets up real fast lol, but I think I am going to put a regular rack on the bottom and center the AMNPS over the air intake in the bottom but raise it a bit to get it away from that element, I think centering it over the intake and raising it a little in the box to get it away from that element a bit more should help, but the biggest issue I would like to solve is get a real oven style t-stat set up, it is in the works, so I can set a temp and forget it every time.
> You have a drip shield on your AMNPS ? If not it may be drippings snuffing your pellets.


Guy, you have the analog model, right? I don't understand why MB felt those didn't need a heat vent or damper. I thought all MB smokers had those but I was wrong. The AMNPS was designed primarily for use in the MES 30 digital since that's the smoker Todd and friends did their R&D testing. Using it in other models calls for imagination and testing since the trays were designed to sit on those parallel bars on the bottom of the MES that the wood chip holder sits on as well. Seems like it was a lot of work for you to build that stack but seems like it was worth it.

Yeah, at cooking temps at 275° and above the pellets burn way faster. I had a problem last year with the sensors allowing the temp to soar up to 295° and I went thru two rows of pellets in about an hour or less. I no longer use a drip shield with the AMNPS because not much grease drips onto it. When it does it drips onto the 3rd row the way I have the maze positioned in my MES 30. So, no, the dripping grease isn't the reason the pellets go out since when it happens it's the pellets in the 1st or 2nd row that go out. I keep my pellets in their plastic bags inside my garage. I've had the same problem with older and with brand new pellets. The next time I smoke a beef brisket I'll try keeping the top vent closed and see if that works any better. I thought I'd come up with a fix for this last year until it started reoccurring this year. Well, I'm smoking beef jerky in a couple of days and after that I'll be smoking a brisket point so we'll see what happens on those smokes. I'll report back with Qview.


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## daricksta (Aug 27, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> That's what I've run into.  In the past, with very low humidity (which is more normal around here), for both cold and hot smoking, I've had no problems as long as I pre-dried the pellets, got them burning very well, had the AMNPS up on the rails in the smoker so it's got good circulation below it, had the pellet hopper pulled out most of the way or even removed, had the chip tray open somewhat, and did NOT use the water pan in the smoker.
> 
> But recently, I've had the pellets go out, even with all of that done.  The one variable has been high humidities.  So I think the pellets absorb the moisture during the smoking session, and after an hour or so, they've absorbed enough moisture that they're no longer able to burn at this elevation.
> 
> ...


Can you post a photo of how you rig up that fan? I can't picture how it would work inside a smoker with all the heat, smoke and moisture going on. Every time I cold smoke the pellets go out for the reason you described so eloquently. I never pre-dry the pellets I use because I've had the same problem with new pellets straight out of the plastic bag. But I gotta come up with something because even when I thought I got the pellet tray fired up it goes out within 30 minutes or the pellets might stay lit because the interior temp is too high for cold smoking. Then that's a 2nd problem I need to deal with.

Fully agree with everything you wrote about smoke rings. I don't care about one but I don't mind getting into a discussion about how they're produced. And yep, you're also right about the crushed charcoal and wood chunks not producing enough gases to achieve a smoke ring. It gets me when those TV judges or someone who I think doesn't know real barbecue (like Guy Fieri) gushes over smoke rings in beef briskets or pork ribs.

Hey--we had a pro/am BBQ competition in my town last year. There were guys using offset barrel smoker stick burners AND electric smokers. And Weber charcoal grills as well! The electric smoker ribs and briskets turned out very, very good. I read an article a year or so ago AND NOW CAN'T FIND that Q from an electric smoker is better than the Q put out by many BBQ restaurants. In the case of Dickey's BBQ Pit and other chain BBQ places (and one local place that went out of business) I know that to be a fact. I'll take the ribs and briskets that come out of my MES 30 over those faux BBQ offerings. My goal is to someday chow down at one of the famous and fabled pit or stick burner places just for the experience of enjoying world class Q. Until then, my MES--with some qualifications--does just fine.

Also fully agree with everytig


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## n4ynu (Aug 27, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Rick,
> ...


Yes I have the analog version, I choose that because of the rack mod I was going to do to it, and because I do not want the electronics when I would get a wireless probe set up anyway ..............
And no, the Smoke Stack was easy, and only cost 11.99 shipped to my door, but I did the stack Mod for the added ventilation for drying, I liked the fixed exhaust regarding smoking, and the bottom of mine is the same except mine does not have the chip heater and chute, it has a chip tray and a water tray on the bottom rack just above the heating element, there was no issue but to remove the chip tray and sit the AMNPS there, I ground notches in the AMNPS only so it would sit on the rails and be in the same place every time, just for consistency's sake, and then just turning the rack around and putting in backwards moved the AMNPS off of the "S" bend in the element so that frequent cycling of the element does not burn up my pellets so fast.
The rack Mod was the best, seeing I have 8 racks now which is nice, let alone that equates in over 1200 sq inches of cooking surface, it has already proved nice for doing large amounts of chicken, can't wait for the family get together, I will be able to cook 40 burgers and 40 dogs with some sausages with ease  :)
And I can get 6 quarters per rack in there as well, so it is going to be very nice for larger cooks, or as we traditionally do, once a month we go to the farm for fresh meats and we cook them, bag them and freeze them in portions, so now I can make all the burgers (we break up smoked burgers and use for spaghetti, manwiches etc), the roast and the chops in one cook, it will be sort of amazing hehehe, will just let the burger rest while I brine the chops and the roast then throw them all in the smoker, we are supposed to hit the farm this week, we have missed the last 2 weeks due to real life getting in our way, but we still got chops and burgers left anyway, so no rush.

Also, this is why I have a drip shield, because I have my AMNPS position just beside the air intake in the bottom of the smoker, maybe thats why my AMNPS is not going out, and also I do not want any drips at all on my AMNPS because it can create airborne ash to get on the food, the draft is low in these boxes when smoking and if on the side of the box it would seem to me it would be low oxygen anyway as the air would tend to rise up and create little convection back down the sides which in my opinion would not be a good spot for pellets that do need air to burn, I am actually going to remove the bottom rack and put a regular rack there, so this way I can position the AMNPS directly over the intake air port, but I found even with pans under the drippy stuff that splatter always finds its way to the bottom.

I too find that when high temp cooking the pellets are short lived, but I am getting a little over 2 1/2 hours out of mine at 300+, but then, like I said, I have moved my AMNPS off of the "S" portion of the element so it is not subject to all of that direct intense heat, before I made the adjustment on the position, it was burning my pellets up fast !

I am not sure what you have the AMNPS sitting on, but if it is not a open grate so air has access to the entire bottom of the AMNPS Tray, that may be your issue, in that case I have seen people here that raise the AMNPS Tray up with bolts so it has nothing obstructing the air from reaching the bottom of the tray.

If you have the hole dead center of the box in the bottom, then your should be the same, but if you open your chute as most do then that will reduce the air coming in that port which also acts as a drip drain as well, so in that case I would leave the chute closed and try and get the AMNPS close to the center where the air will be coming in, otherwise maybe find a way to move the AMNPS to a place where it could pick up some of the air from the chute if you do open it, if you are not going to use the feeder, then maybe seal it off inside, and drill holes in the top of the chip burner box, set your AMNPS there and leave the feeder tube open or partially open, this way you will have the fresh air drawn in the chute applied to the base of the AMNPS and you should be golden :)

I am too looking forward to finally doing some Jerky and a Brisket too, hopefully to the farm this Wed for meats, going to get the Brisket from Sams  :)


----------



## rabbithutch (Aug 27, 2016)

I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection.  (It was handled and I'm OK now)  That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could.  Smoking meats was high on that list.  My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF.  Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.

What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES.  Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use.  The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do.  For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.

Now I'm not trying to say that electrics are the wrong way to go because I've produced some good smokes on my MES as have many others here at SMF.  All I'm trying to do is maybe challenge you to think through your rationale about the decision while considering other options.

I got my first Weber 22-1/2" OTG on CL for $30.  You cannot get into an electric smoker at that price point without wearing a mask.  I find clean-up no more onerous than with the electric.  I stock up on charcoal when they run the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day specials so fuel cost is negligible.

Post here or PM me if you have questions and I'll try to give you my best advice based on what I've experienced.


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 27, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection. (It was handled and I'm OK now) That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could. Smoking meats was high on that list. My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF. Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.
> 
> What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES. Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use. The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do. For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.
> 
> ...


My Analog has better smoke flavor than my old brinkman or the chargrill, but then I use the AMNPS Pellet Smoker  :), but then any MES should be the same as long as you have consistent smoke.
And I would never leave the Foodies, never !  Just never know what could happen, do not want to mess up the meats !  hehehe


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## sigmo (Aug 29, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I started with a Brinkman too hehehe
> 
> 
> I start my AMNPS outside the smoker and let it get going well before I put in the box, the one time it was finicky was when I was doing 12 large chicken breasts, I do believe it was humidity but I opened the stack one notch and no more issues, and I am only 188 ft above sea level so altitude issues I think I am free from LOL
> ...


I do think the elevation plays into this.  At near sea level, humidity may not be as much of an issue as it seems to be where I'm at.

I posted a rather long diatribe about some considerations when choosing the position of the sensor for your temperature controller in an oven or one of our smokers in another thread.  I should just link to that rather than repost it here because I worry that I'm derailing the OP's thread with some of this.  In fact, I was going to start a completely new thread with pictures and thoughts about some modifications to my particular MES, and then we could discuss a lot of these issues in that thread.

But I'll make at least one more "thread hijacking" post to this thread, and hope the OP doesn't mind.  :)

Just to keep things confusing, that other thread, and the similar discussions we're having there was here:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052

Quote:


daRicksta said:


> Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.
> 
> MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.


I think that if you used the MES (at least those similar to my MES40) the way the manufacturer intended, keeping the top vent closed for smoking might well be a very good idea.

Their plan is that the heating element heats the wood chips and makes them smolder intermittently, every time the heating element kicks on.

With the vent closed, very little air would enter or exit the system.  So even though you're not heating by burning fuel, you'd probably end up with a fairly low oxygen environment.  But that's OK because you're not counting on the chips actually burning to maintain the smoke.  You're using the heating element to heat them to a high enough temperature where they decompose and emit smoke regardless.  And perhaps, you even get a high quality smoke because you aren't letting them really burn due to the low oxygen!

And at the same time, because you're not allowing air to move through the smoker, you don't need as much smoke (it's got no place to go except onto your food or other surfaces in the smoker).  And likewise, the heater doesn't need to work very hard, so it saves power.

But I still think people had problems with the chips not giving off enough smoke because the heater wasn't on enough of the time.  So the AMNPS and variations on it became popular.

But using them is really a lot different thing because you cannot keep them burning without some oxygen available.

Since I use the AMNPS, I, too, keep my top vent open.  I even add a section of duct to it to make it draw better, or resort to a fan to really get air moving through the unit!  :)

But if I was using the system the way it was designed, I might well do better with the top vent totally closed.


daRicksta said:


> Can you post a photo of how you rig up that fan? I can't picture how it would work inside a smoker with all the heat, smoke and moisture going on. Every time I cold smoke the pellets go out for the reason you described so eloquently. I never pre-dry the pellets I use because I've had the same problem with new pellets straight out of the plastic bag. But I gotta come up with something because even when I thought I got the pellet tray fired up it goes out within 30 minutes or the pellets might stay lit because the interior temp is too high for cold smoking. Then that's a 2nd problem I need to deal with.
> 
> Fully agree with everything you wrote about smoke rings. I don't care about one but I don't mind getting into a discussion about how they're produced. And yep, you're also right about the crushed charcoal and wood chunks not producing enough gases to achieve a smoke ring. It gets me when those TV judges or someone who I think doesn't know real barbecue (like Guy Fieri) gushes over smoke rings in beef briskets or pork ribs.
> 
> ...


Here's the main thing.  I put the fan on the outside of the smoker, blowing into the intake like this:













p1887537727.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Aug 29, 2016






That's the "extreme mode" where it's covering the entire inlet opening and blasting a LOT of air through the unit.  That works pretty good for getting jerky to dry!

I mounted some little neodymium magnets to the corners of the fan so I can just stick it where ever I want.  It really moves too much air, so I have to keep it way off to the edge of the opening.  But a guy on that other thread suggested getting a variable speed fan setup and posted a link to the one he uses.  It really would be great to be able to run the fan at an extremely slow speed.  But just putting a baffle in front of it would block most of it, too.  So there could be a lot of ways to get just the right amount of air flow.

I originally came up with this when I couldn't get my Jerky to dry in a reasonable time.  The temperature I was at was 150 to 160, and it just wouldn't draw much even with the top vent all the way open, so I slapped this baby on there, and the jerky dried in a couple of hours.

But I also used it the other night to make some cold-smoked butter.  I really needed something to blow the air through the unit because there was NO draft because I had the smoker turned completely off to keep the temperature low.

It actually worked too well.  I think I made the pellets burn too hot and fast, and the quality of the smoke was not good.  I'm thinking that you want the pellets burning cool and slow to get good TBS.  When they burn too well and too hot, you get more of the creosote type smoke.  Not as blue.  More to the white, nasty side of things.  So I should have throttled things back.

But I was going to start a thread about that whole process, too, so I don't want to clutter this thread with all of that, either.

Here's how I finally attached the little magnets to the corners of the fan:













p1940794602.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Aug 29, 2016






I added some wire to the thing to give me a lot of slack between where I have the smoker and the nearest electrical outlet into which I plug the "wall wart" for it.

I took out the whole chip tray and it's associated metalwork from inside of my MES, and put some crude ductwork and deflectors inside to try to get things to work better.  And I think it succeeded beyond my dreams.  That's why I got the "too good" burn of the pellets this last time.

I took out all of the original metalwork and added a duct leading from the inlet past the heating element, and then aimed right at where I put the AMNPS.  There are some other heat shields and drip guards in place, too.  All of it made of disposable steam-tray covers for temporary experimentation.













p696408589.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Aug 29, 2016






The idea was to get the incoming air to blow right at the AMNPS.  But then, since I was cold smoking butter, I stuck the fan partway blowing into the intake:













p881133181.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Aug 29, 2016






Those are strong little magnets, so I just let it hang down low, partway blowing into the inlet.  Pardon the crude flashlight illumination used in the photo. 

But even when only partially blowing into the inlet, it was still a bit too much, I fear.

Not that it went bad. I thought it was doing well.  It burned about 3/4 of a row of pellets in about 3 hours.  So that seemed good.  But man, that butter is SMOKY!

But I also did this:













p881142527.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Aug 29, 2016






This might be kind of hard to see.  But I cut each cube of butter into four smaller pieces to give them more surface area, because people said they had a hard time getting any smoke penetration into butter.  I figured why not just increase the surface area to collect smoke?  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Then, as if that wasn't enough, and since it was a cold smoke (no heat applied at all), I got another computer fan, that had a bracket attached to it that I'd made to blow on some hard drives in an old computer, and set it into the rack above the butter to blow down gently onto the butter, hoping to force smoke to go down into that deep pan so it wouldn't miss out on anything.

It's a 12 Volt fan, but operating off of a 5 Volt supply, so it ran nice and slow, but it really did keep the smoke stirred up and even-looking, and forced it to flow down in and around the butter pieces.  Perfect!

But I think I could've used little or no augmentation of the air coming into the system and aimed at the AMNPS.  It looked like a nice amount of smoke, but man, baby, that's some smoky butter!

And, I could have just given it an hour, and it might have been fine.

I took the butter out of the smoker, pressed the four pieces of each stick back together, then vacuum sealed them all as individual "sticks" of butter.

They sat in the fridge for 3 days, and then I couldn't stand it and pulled one of them out and let it get up to room temp.  Then I kneaded it in the vacuum bag and really got it all mixed together really well.  Then I smooshed it all against one corner, clipped off that corner of the bag, and dispensed it out into a little container as if I was using a cake frosting piping bag.

I had my wife try some, and she actually loved it!  And she usually thinks I use too much smoke on everything.  So I don't know.

I just think that I may have gotten too high of a burning temperature on the pellets and shifted things toward thick white smoke with that creosote flavor.  But I need to let it mellow longer and try it on some different things before I pass judgement.

I guess the main point was that with a fan, you can easily have way too much of a good thing!  So I need to do a better job of blocking all but just the right amount of airflow when I use a fan.

Once again, the slow fan inside was only able to be used because this was a completely cold smoke, with the heat turned all the way off.


N4YNU said:


> Yes I have the analog version, I choose that because of the rack mod I was going to do to it, and because I do not want the electronics when I would get a wireless probe set up anyway ..............
> And no, the Smoke Stack was easy, and only cost 11.99 shipped to my door, but I did the stack Mod for the added ventilation for drying, I liked the fixed exhaust regarding smoking, and the bottom of mine is the same except mine does not have the chip heater and chute, it has a chip tray and a water tray on the bottom rack just above the heating element, there was no issue but to remove the chip tray and sit the AMNPS there, I ground notches in the AMNPS only so it would sit on the rails and be in the same place every time, just for consistency's sake, and then just turning the rack around and putting in backwards moved the AMNPS off of the "S" bend in the element so that frequent cycling of the element does not burn up my pellets so fast.
> The rack Mod was the best, seeing I have 8 racks now which is nice, let alone that equates in over 1200 sq inches of cooking surface, it has already proved nice for doing large amounts of chicken, can't wait for the family get together, I will be able to cook 40 burgers and 40 dogs with some sausages with ease  :)
> And I can get 6 quarters per rack in there as well, so it is going to be very nice for larger cooks, or as we traditionally do, once a month we go to the farm for fresh meats and we cook them, bag them and freeze them in portions, so now I can make all the burgers (we break up smoked burgers and use for spaghetti, manwiches etc), the roast and the chops in one cook, it will be sort of amazing hehehe, will just let the burger rest while I brine the chops and the roast then throw them all in the smoker, we are supposed to hit the farm this week, we have missed the last 2 weeks due to real life getting in our way, but we still got chops and burgers left anyway, so no rush.
> ...


Interesting!   So you have your AMNPS right over the heating element.  I can see how that would keep the pellets dry, for one thing.  Induce an upward air current under the AMNPS, for another.  And being on the side with the air vent, assure better oxygen to them.

On the other hand, it might lead to much faster burning of the pellets, especially when operating at higher temperatures which require the heater to be on more of the time.

You can see above how I ducted the incoming air right toward the AMNPS even through it sits over to the left.  And that duct will be heated a bit by the heating element which may help to warm and dry the incoming air during hot smoking operations.

But a lesson I may have learned is this:

Although you don't want the pellets to go out.  You also don't really want them burning too well, either, because they make the best tasting smoke when they're on that verge of going out.

I read a Wikipedia article about smoking, and it said that if the combustion temperature of the smoking wood is too high, it will make the good tasting stuff, but then the high temperatures will break those molecules down into bad-tasting stuff.  So you really want your smoke generator to burn the wood at a low temperature.  And to that end, my fan blowing into the duct aimed right at the AMNPS may have been going too darned far!

I really would like to experiment with combustion conditions and see if I can control things so the pellets don't go out, but also produce only good-tasting smoke.

I think we may need continuous infra-red temperature measurement and a controller to operate a damper or fan to keep the pellets burning, but just not too darned well!  ;)

More of the "modify everything" philosophy at work!


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## n4ynu (Aug 29, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I started with a Brinkman too hehehe
> ...


Sigmo,

Love the thoughts, this is how it is done, so many ideas and eventually with all this we will find a way to get it right, then we need to join together and produce our own brand !

My AMNPS is over the Element, but I too ran into the issue of high temps burning the pellets, so that is why I posted the "AMNPS Flare Up Mod", on my analogs design, there is no chip chute or associated hardware, just a rack of sorts that holds the chip tray and the water bowl, but as you stated, original design was for the element to heat the chips, well with the AMNPS in place of the Chip Tray, it was directly above that "S" bend in the element and exposed to the heat when the element was burning in a big way, this is why I found that by turning the bottom rack 180 degrees backwards and re-inserting it placed the AMNPS pretty much in the center of the opening on the left of the element, this solved that issue almost completely, almost, with higher temp cooking it still led to higher temps and faster use of the pellets but seriously reduced from the previous position, I have another MOD in the works (in my mind) that will eliminate that, but I need to think on it more, you see you have that chip chute for air intake, but mine has a 3/4" hole drilled center and the bottom plate of the box is inclined from the 4 sides of the bottom to the hole (intake) at the bottom, so yes getting the AMNPS repositioned from above that "S" in the element was a good choice, but the AMNPS is still above the element, this is why I made the comment on the propane units to try and place the AMNPS as low as possible, to remove the heat being produced from the pellet smoldering process, so the same stands true in my situation, I need to get the AMNPS below the heating element and no offense but I am not fond of the mailbox mod just because it makes a mess of the box and to much stuff here and there not really part of the smoker, I want a cleaner answer lets say, but I believe I have the answer, just need to go stare at the box and get the design straight in my mind.

Now my opinion here, but, with the AMNPS burning as it should, it does produce heat, so there should be enough draft to accommodate drying with the new stack wide open, was not enough period with the two 3/4" holes for intake and exhaust on this model, but should be enough for drying and should maintain a constant but slow draft, should, but my issue on my model is that the intake (doubles as a drain into the drip pan) is not enough, so I have fixed the exhaust, now to make amends on the intake air, I have a plan !!!!

Although the bottom is inclined with a angle for each quarter to the drain, it will make what I am planning somewhat interesting to make to look appeasing, but I have a answer, but cannot explain it quite as I would like, show and tell would be better, maybe I can produce kits and sell them as it would not be hard to do, but would entail that I have on hand each of the different box designs that would change my design, but that may not even be a issue regarding buying one, as the models other than mine seem to have a flat bottom which would not create any issues at all, but what I am pondering would be permanently attached to the Box and would be small in comparison to the mailbox and there would be no duct, I do not believe that the AMNOS would produce enough heat to ruin cold smoking or drying, especially if you have the appropriate draft, and we do not needs allot, just a minimal draft to keep the AMNPS in oxygen and the smoke moving and or deflected or diffused in the box, something as simple as a diffuser sheet located above the AMNPS and below the first rack should suffice for that, it would need to be small tightly spaced holes in a sheet like a common HVAC Diffuser, it would serve the purpose of diffusing the air and smoke across the entire area of the box, it would also (in my opinion) most likely cure most hot spots as it would be diffusing the air, the smoke and by working on diffusing the air then it would also even heat throughout the box as well and at the same time diffuse the smoke so no areas of the box would be subject to air rising vertically to the exhaust, this is another reason I put my Smoke Stack dead center, did not want to have it in the back or a corner or one side, as the convection would effect the heat and the smoke as it traveled in the box from bottom to top.

The only thing I have to really figure out on the AMNPS Mod I am thinking of doing is how to dial in the intake air, but that should regulate itself, I just need to be careful of the ports I use in the box, as too much and it could lead to combustion of the pellets, so it has to be a fixed intake port for the AMNPS so that it is not affected by changes in draft in the box, this is the perplexing part that has smoke coming out of my ears at the moment.

I think I have a plan, but I need to go and stare at the box and get my friend to bring me another thin piece of aluminum for me to play with :)

But to be honest, I think the only way to fix the heat issue is to raise the heating element in regards to the AMNPS, of course I would have to lengthen the element supports but in the end, I think this is the answer, get the AMNPS below the heat but still have fresh air intake below the AMNPS, not sure if I have to go there, would rather go with a t-stat with remote bulb to solve the box temp issue, I think I have enough room to make what I am think work without moving the element, but even if I did move the element I would still use a mid or lower quarter temp probe for the box, the probe being in the nose of the controller is too low in the box and is subject to intake air cycling as opposed to actual box temp cycling, that is the big issue with the element with that controller, but easy enough to fix.

In you case for cold smokes or very low temp smokes, I would not force air in, I would remove your network and incorporate an offset draw instead of forcing air in, I would use the fan above the exhaust damper, draw the air out, remove the network of ducting except maybe to allow it to direct the intake air to the bottom, then you would have fresh air intake, fresh air in the bottom for the AMNPS, but not so much that it would in effect create a air current to cause the AMNPS to Flare burn or burn accelerated, I think that would serve you much better for cold smokes, that is what I am planning to do as well, and by offset draw I mean, not placing the fan directly over the exhaust damper but rather maybe putting the fan in piece of smoke pipe and just let the fan run, but sliding the tube or pipe over part of the exhaust vent, this way you would be able to control your draft or fresh air intake as it may be and would eliminate strong currents and or drafts in the box regarding the operation of the AMNPS, I am going to do the same for mine for jerky drying, but want to get the AMNPS Issues straight first, I got it burning good with virtually no issues except the added heat, not to remove it from the heat in some fashion so I can get the proper burns on higher temps, I find that increased airflow is problematic for the temps to be stable as it causes the probe on the controller to cycle the element to often, so low airflow is better, but have to get the AMNPS out of the heat, then, if I can pull that off I will be good.

After all this I think I will go stare at the box for a bit right now, you got me motivated  :)


----------



## daricksta (Aug 29, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> I do think the elevation plays into this.  At near sea level, humidity may not be as much of an issue as it seems to be where I'm at.
> 
> I posted a rather long diatribe about some considerations when choosing the position of the sensor for your temperature controller in an oven or one of our smokers in another thread.  I should just link to that rather than repost it here because I worry that I'm derailing the OP's thread with some of this.  In fact, I was going to start a completely new thread with pictures and thoughts about some modifications to my particular MES, and then we could discuss a lot of these issues in that thread.
> 
> ...


That's a great fan setup, Sigmo. Like most electrical mod projects I'd have to do a lot of research into how to connect that to a wired plug. I can do basic around the house electrical repair stuff but that's it. I have installed those fans in computers but the Molex connectors were already there. Now, as it happens I'm smoking beef jerky today. My problem is keeping the temp stable. I just got a new controller from Masterbuilt but I'm still having a problem with the temp overshooting my set point during heat up by 30-40 degrees. Then I turn off the controller and open the door to lower the temp and it goes 30 degrees below the set point. For now though, things are half-OK. By that I mean the right side of the smoker is 160° but the left side is only 131°. If I bump up the set point--currently at 125°--the heating cycle will boost the right side temp too high again I'm going to have to not only turn the meat over every couple of hours but also turn the Q-MATZ around so that all the meat is exposed to the high and low temp sides. Right now I'm hoping the meat is sufficiently dried out enough even in 10 hours, which will be around 10 pm tonight. If it gets too late I'll put them in my countertop convection oven and set it to the dehydrate function.

I didn't know about how the MES heating element was designed to just keep wood chips smoldering. But I've seen how quickly wood pellets burn up when my MES is running over 180°. Thanks also for the info on what happens to the quality of smoke with chips and pellets when they burn too hot.


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## daricksta (Aug 29, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection. (It was handled and I'm OK now) That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could. Smoking meats was high on that list. My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF. Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.
> 
> What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES. Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use. The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do. For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.
> 
> ...


I've also used my 22.5" Weber OTS for smoking baby back and St. Louis ribs. In the past I've used wood chips over the charcoal but I recently got an A-MAZE-N 6" Tube Smoker so I'm using wood pellets now. One year I smoked 3 racks of St' Louis ribs inside a rib rack on the Weber and 3 racks of baby backs in my MES; both over hickory (chips for the Weber, pellets in the AMNPS for the MES). Everybody loved both sets of ribs turned out great but the St. Louis were a bit overcooked for my tastes.  I tend to overcook BBQ since even though I'm using indirect heat I usually add too many briquettes. I've also used pellets for added wood smoke when grilling a tri-tip roast Santa Maria, CA-style. I've also said a few times in these forums that I prefer my Weber over my MES 30 for backyard cooking but it's easier to smoke and maintain roughly stable heat over a few hours in the MES. Still plan to practice making real BBQ on the Weber. It's just more fun to use than the MES.


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## rabbithutch (Aug 29, 2016)

Keep up with the heat practice, Rick!  You can master heat control on the Weber.  Here are a couple of tips.  Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill.  Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread.  I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process.  After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread.  I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly.  I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake.  I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents.  I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices.  I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents.  If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high.  It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes.  I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is.  It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire.  The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.


----------



## daricksta (Aug 29, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.
> 
> I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.
> 
> HTH.


Wow, HTH, that's a lot of work. I've seen photos of the snake method and one of my SMF buddies likes to use it. I've been using those Weber fuel holders and just pouring lit coals into them. I can try the snake method but I'll have to read your suggestions first. Which Vortex did you buy? I've seen them online but now after doing a search I'm not sure what they are. And in all my years using my Weber (since the 1980s. I've had my 2nd one for 5 years or so) I never futzed around with the vents. MES or Weber typically the vents are wide open. I'm rapidly becoming an older fart and I like set it and forget it smoking or grilling--but it's rarely that way, isn't it? I never fully looked into the science of adjusting the top and bottom vents. If you open the bottom vent to allow in more air then once the temp is where you wanted it do you remember to close it again? And when do you fool around with the top vent? It will take a lot of heat practice to get it down. But from what you're saying I should learn how to use them. To check the interior Weber kettle temp I have a Maverick Surface Laser Therm that works great.

Rick


----------



## rabbithutch (Aug 29, 2016)

Keep up with the heat practice, Rick!  You can master heat control on the Weber.  Here are a couple of tips.  Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill.  Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread.  I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process.  After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread.  I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly.  I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake.  I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents.  I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices.  I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents.  If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high.  It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes.  I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is.  It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire.  The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.

You'll be surprised how quickly you pick it up, Rick.  Remember that it is useful to set gauge marks on both your upper and upper vents.  If you kettle doesn't have the ash shaker sweep, it might take a bit more work to mark the lower vent so that you can see them easily, but don't let that stop you.  I can smoker for more than 20 hours on one snake set.  In fact, I don't think I've ever used all the briqs I put into the 22-1/2; but if you don't watch it and set the vents as needed, you might burn through and cook whatever you're cooking too fast.  Like I said, I shoot for 250 and adjust above 300 and below 225.  The Performer has a good thermometer stuck through the handle.  That's what I gauge it by.  I've used an IR thermo point-and-shoot deal to check the built-in and they are more than close enough.


----------



## daricksta (Aug 29, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.
> 
> I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.
> 
> ...


I gotta try that snake thing, HTH. What's the ash shaker sweep? Is that the tri-spearhead thing on the bottom of the kettle? I did a mod to my OTS to make it more like an OTG by installing the enclosed ash catcher and the hinged cooking grate. For low and slow cooking I always check the temp with the laser gun. I check both the temp where the meat is being cooked and the temp for each of the piles of briqs in the fuel holders. But again, I'm going to try the snake the next time I'm cooking a roast or ribs.

Can you upload a photo showing how you mark the vent openings? And why do you mark them? You can see the top vent. Can't you just tell my looking at the position metal lever (or whatever it's called) how open or closed the bottom vent is?


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## rabbithutch (Aug 29, 2016)

Rick,

The ash shaker thing is the slide on the OTG and Performer that causes ashes to drop down in the removable ash bin.  I don't think they have them on the other models but use the daisy wheels instead.  It would not make any difference in any case whether you use the wheels or the ash shaker handle to gauge how much air is going thru.

I'll try to remember to get pics tomorrow.  You are right though, if you look at the daisy wheel vents you can see the openings and tell how much they are opened/closed.


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## n4ynu (Aug 29, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Sigmo said:
> 
> 
> > p696408589.jpg
> ...


----------



## rabbithutch (Aug 29, 2016)

:110:


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## daricksta (Aug 30, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> Rick,
> 
> The ash shaker thing is the slide on the OTG and Performer that causes ashes to drop down in the removable ash bin. I don't think they have them on the other models but use the daisy wheels instead. It would not make any difference in any case whether you use the wheels or the ash shaker handle to gauge how much air is going thru.
> 
> I'll try to remember to get pics tomorrow. You are right though, if you look at the daisy wheel vents you can see the openings and tell how much they are opened/closed.


The OTS comes with the ash sweeper. On my Weber I replaced the open ash catcher with the enclosed one. I also didn't know until now the vents were called daisy wheel vents.


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 30, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> daRicksta said:
> 
> 
> > Sigmo said:
> ...


I saw your smoker pics on the link your posted, now I have a better understanding of what the 40 look like, Thx for the pics  :)


----------



## dr k (Aug 30, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> I saw your smoker pics on the link your posted, now I have a better understanding of what the 40 look like, Thx for the pics  :)


I'm trying to follow the quote inside a quote inside a quote.  Kinda like a Turduckin post.  I can't get into the background layered quotes not shown, only the foreground in the post above #100 and don't know how to do that.  Maybe it's because I comment on each post before hitting the multi post again and commenting then hitting quote to end my quoting.  I'm sure it's me but  but in multiple quotes I've been able to read each post quoted.  Let me know what I'm doing wrong.

-Kurt


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## n4ynu (Aug 30, 2016)

Dr K said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > I saw your smoker pics on the link your posted, now I have a better understanding of what the 40 look like, Thx for the pics  :)
> ...


Well that post was a response to Sigmo, and I am not sure what your issue is with the posts, yes with all the quotes it makes it interesting, but if you get a email notification and click on "See Post" instead of "Go to Thread" it will take you directly to the post that you are getting notified for rather than the Thread where you have to scroll madly through all the quotes.
If you do the "multi quote" and get the notification, the "See Post" should take you directly to the Post that you were notified of, not necessarily the end of the thread, maybe it is just some confusion there, I have had to learn this by trail and error myself hehehe, every Forum has a different way of operating so it gets a bit crazy, but, I do not go to any others anymore, just this one.
Hope that helps a bit, the link I was speaking of in case you are interested is in Sigmo's multi quote answers to more than several questions, the link is here :
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052  

Hope that helps  :)


----------



## dr k (Aug 30, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Well that post was a response to Sigmo, and I am not sure what your issue is with the posts, yes with all the quotes it makes it interesting, but if you get a email notification and click on "See Post" instead of "Go to Thread" it will take you directly to the post that you are getting notified for rather than the Thread where you have to scroll madly through all the quotes.
> If you do the "multi quote" and get the notification, the "See Post" should take you directly to the Post that you were notified of, not necessarily the end of the thread, maybe it is just some confusion there, I have had to learn this by trail and error myself hehehe, every Forum has a different way of operating so it gets a bit crazy, but, I do not go to any others anymore, just this one.
> Hope that helps a bit, the link I was speaking of in case you are interested is in Sigmo's multi quote answers to more than several questions, the link is here :
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052
> ...


Yeah, I was online but clicking on everything except the green arrow icon next to the posters name in the quotes.  I guess if I keep hitting multiple quotes, they stack up inside one another.  I don't know.  I just commented on each quote individually within one post when multi posting.  I didn't know you could Turduckin quotes. 

-Kurt


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 30, 2016)

Dr K said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Well that post was a response to Sigmo, and I am not sure what your issue is with the posts, yes with all the quotes it makes it interesting, but if you get a email notification and click on "See Post" instead of "Go to Thread" it will take you directly to the post that you are getting notified for rather than the Thread where you have to scroll madly through all the quotes.
> ...


Well you can quote and then delete parts of the quotes if that is what you mean, yes you can do that, not too sure what you mean by Turducking Quotes hehehe


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## dr k (Aug 30, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Well you can quote and then delete parts of the quotes if that is what you mean, yes you can do that, not too sure what you mean by Turducking Quotes hehehe


Turduckin=boneless chicken, inside a boneless duck, inside a boneless turkey.  It's a casingless whole muscle poultry freak show, so to speak. A blending/layering.  There's a lamb, inside a goat, inside a pig, inside a cow out there.  So much for crispy skin with the other species on the inside.

-Kurt


----------



## n4ynu (Aug 30, 2016)

Dr K said:


> N4YNU said:
> 
> 
> > Well you can quote and then delete parts of the quotes if that is what you mean, yes you can do that, not too sure what you mean by Turducking Quotes hehehe
> ...


ROFLOL


----------



## sigmo (Sep 8, 2016)

N4YNU said:


> Sigmo,
> 
> Love the thoughts, this is how it is done, so many ideas and eventually with all this we will find a way to get it right, then we need to join together and produce our own brand !


Sorry I didn't get back to this thread earlier!

I've done some smoking since making my modifications, and everything has worked well.  I haven't used the fan to force air through the last few times as it wasn't needed. But it was rainy and cool for the last two, and still, I had good burning of the pellets.

I posted better pictures and explanations of everything in this thread:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1606361

There's a lot to all of this, and with all of the different models and types of smokers people have, it can get confusing to visualize what's happening in smokers with which we're not really familiar!

But the general concepts are still very useful to everyone, I think!  So it's neat to see and read about what everyone is trying out, and how it's working for them.

One point I will make is that I am reluctant to use anything but a purpose-built draft inducer or convection oven fan at the outlet of (or inside) one of these smokers because of the high temperatures and smoke that will be present.  That's why I've been using the fan only to force cool, clean air into the smoker during high-temperature operation.  The exception is the small fan running very slow that I have put inside the smoker to circulate the smoke better during cold smokes.  And I just accept that the fan will probably fail prematurely due to build-up of smoke residue.  Hey.  They're cheap!  :)

But of course, the same argument could be made for using on on the vent to suck out the hot, smoky air.  As long as it doesn't go up in flames, you're really not out that much if it dies prematurely, I guess!  But the cabinet on mine is pretty tight.  The door seal works well.  I don't see smoke leaking out anywhere when I "pressure it up" with the fan blowing into the inlet.


daRicksta said:


> That's a great fan setup, Sigmo. Like most electrical mod projects I'd have to do a lot of research into how to connect that to a wired plug. I can do basic around the house electrical repair stuff but that's it. I have installed those fans in computers but the Molex connectors were already there. Now, as it happens I'm smoking beef jerky today. My problem is keeping the temp stable. I just got a new controller from Masterbuilt but I'm still having a problem with the temp overshooting my set point during heat up by 30-40 degrees. Then I turn off the controller and open the door to lower the temp and it goes 30 degrees below the set point. For now though, things are half-OK. By that I mean the right side of the smoker is 160° but the left side is only 131°. If I bump up the set point--currently at 125°--the heating cycle will boost the right side temp too high again I'm going to have to not only turn the meat over every couple of hours but also turn the Q-MATZ around so that all the meat is exposed to the high and low temp sides. Right now I'm hoping the meat is sufficiently dried out enough even in 10 hours, which will be around 10 pm tonight. If it gets too late I'll put them in my countertop convection oven and set it to the dehydrate function.
> 
> I didn't know about how the MES heating element was designed to just keep wood chips smoldering. But I've seen how quickly wood pellets burn up when my MES is running over 180°. Thanks also for the info on what happens to the quality of smoke with chips and pellets when they burn too hot.


You really have to beware what you're seeing for temperature readings on different thermometers in different places in smokers and ovens.  It really can vary a lot.  Especially if there's no active stirring of the air in the chamber.  None of these home smokers seem to employ any sort of active stirring of the air, but the makers of the commercial units are very aware of this.  Not only is the smoke not evenly distributed, but the heat isn't, either, unless you have a blower of some sort mixing things up.

And this makes good temperature control quite difficult.

I'm seriously looking at various draft inducers and fans meant for "convection ovens" to use in my smoker.  I do think that's the only real way to ever get even heating and smoke throughout the cabinet.

But having said that, I wouldn't expect such large swings in temperature between when the heating element switches on and switches off.  Looking only at the display on the controller, I'd be curious as to what sort of temperature "hysteresis" it employs.  On mine, it's not a ridiculous amount.  I need to check.  But we have to remember that one of the design considerations on these MESs is that they're trying to burn the chips in the drawer above the heating element in the original design.  So they probably set things up to have a fairly large amount of hysteresis so that when the heater comes on, it stays on for quite a while so it can ignite the chips.  If it cycles on and off too quickly, that will give tighter temperature control, but will also never let the heating element get hot enough to burn the chips at all once the smoker comes up to temperature.

It's also possible that they do more than just employ a rather large amount of temperature hysteresis.  They may well have a timing function built into the controller to assure some minimum on-time for the heater any time it does come on.  That way, they get some chip burning, for sure, every so often.  I have NOT tested this or carefully observed the behavior.  I'm just speculating on why we observe some of what we see with these units.  There may be method to their madness.  It just doesn't perfectly suit us users of different smoke generators!

So we are paying something of a price for their original design.  For those of us using a different way of generating the smoke, we would prefer tighter temperature control.  But that's not the way these units were designed.  So without putting in our own custom temperature control, we're stuck with more hysteresis than what we might program if it was up to us now that we're using AMNPSs, and the like.

Quote:


N4YNU said:


> I saw your smoker pics on the link your posted, now I have a better understanding of what the 40 look like, Thx for the pics  :)


OK.  Cool.  Take a look at the thread I linked to at the top of this post for better photos showing what's really going on in mine.  I am having excellent luck with it.  It's ugly, and needs to be done in a more permanent and professional way, but for a "test kludge", it's performing well for me so far.


Dr K said:


> Turduckin=boneless chicken, inside a boneless duck, inside a boneless turkey.  It's a casingless whole muscle poultry freak show, so to speak. A blending/layering.  There's a lamb, inside a goat, inside a pig, inside a cow out there.  So much for crispy skin with the other species on the inside.
> 
> -Kurt


I've seen those on TV every Thanksgiving time, but never tried one.  I'm not sure I'd like it, but it is pretty amusing!


----------



## daricksta (Sep 8, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> Sorry I didn't get back to this thread earlier!
> 
> I've done some smoking since making my modifications, and everything has worked well.  I haven't used the fan to force air through the last few times as it wasn't needed. But it was rainy and cool for the last two, and still, I had good burning of the pellets.
> 
> ...


Sigmo, in my situation I'm limited physically and my DIY expertise in what mods I can make to my MES--even my what I'm willing to make. I just have to stick with my MES as originally received and dealing with the AMNPS burning out because of the poor air circulation inside the MES 30 either under low temp or low external temp conditions. Planning on smoking a brisket half with both flat and point tomorrow if the weather cooperates. Will be using my new butcher paper to wrap it in to get past the stall and otherwise reduce the cooking time. I'll also be experimenting to determine how to get really nice, firm bark from a wrapped brisket. Qview will be included when I post the results.


----------



## rabbithutch (Sep 8, 2016)

I guess I forgot to get the pics that I promised daRicksta.  I hope this will make amends.













2016-09-08 16.43.28-2.jpg



__ rabbithutch
__ Sep 8, 2016






This first pic shows the markings on the lower vents (O=wide open; H=half open; C=fully closed).  I marked them one day when I was cleaning out ashes and could see the position of the sweeps.













2016-09-08 16.43.15-1.jpg



__ rabbithutch
__ Sep 8, 2016






This pic shows marks I put on the upper daisy wheel vent.  I really don't use them but set the opening by eye.

Again, sorry for the delay in getting the pics.


----------



## sigmo (Sep 9, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Sigmo, in my situation I'm limited physically and my DIY expertise in what mods I can make to my MES--even my what I'm willing to make. I just have to stick with my MES as originally received and dealing with the AMNPS burning out because of the poor air circulation inside the MES 30 either under low temp or low external temp conditions. Planning on smoking a brisket half with both flat and point tomorrow if the weather cooperates. Will be using my new butcher paper to wrap it in to get past the stall and otherwise reduce the cooking time. I'll also be experimenting to determine how to get really nice, firm bark from a wrapped brisket. Qview will be included when I post the results.



I think the best advice I can give to keep the AMNPS burning is:

Pre-dry the pellets.  I cook them in the home oven for an hour or so at 250 or 275.  That seems to drive most of the moisture out, and then they at least start off burning very well.

Then, a real help is to make sure to pile the pellets into the AMNPS deep.  You don't want them to touch over the barriers and "short circuit", but you want them deep so there is a lot of mass all together.  That seems to make the system burn more reliably.  I think that's why the tube smoker is supposed to be more reliable burning than the AMNPS.  There's just more pellets per inch, so to speak.  I think part of the trouble I was having recently was because I wasn't putting the pellets in deep enough.  It seems like a silly thing, but it really makes a difference.

And make sure the AMNPS is up off of the floor of the smoker so it'll get good airflow up from below.  Just an inch or two of elevation really helps.

I light mine with a Mapp Gas torch.  It gets hotter than a propane torch.  It really gets the job done in a hurry.  Then I let the pellets burn for a while with an open flame.  Finally, I blow them out, but then blow on them quite a bit to make sure that there are a good number of the pellets glowing really well.  Getting them lit really well seems to be a key, too.

I'm not very familiar with the MES-30, but adding a duct to provide a smoke-stack is easy and pays off by pulling more air through.  On my MES-40, All I have to do is jam a section of the rigid 3" duct into the opening for the top vent.  It just wedges in there.  It's a coincidence, but it's a perfect fit.  Just tight enough to hold it in place, but not so tight that I can't just jam it in there and pull it out fairly easily.  So I can take it off or put it on as needed.  So that's a simple fix that you just jam in when you need it.  :)

Is your top vent on the top or on the side of the smoker?













p799862260.jpg



__ sigmo
__ Sep 4, 2016






Here, I'm using one of those adjustable corner sections all straightened out.  But the straight sections are the same diameter.  This just happens to be about the right length for what I wanted so I didn't need to cut anything or modify it at all.  Straight out of the bag from the hardware store, and simply jammed into the top vent's opening.

Hopefully a few things like that will make your AMNPS a bit more reliable and your upcoming smoke will come out great!  Thumbs Up


----------



## brickguy221 (Sep 9, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> I think the best advice I can give to keep the AMNPS burning is:
> 
> Pre-dry the pellets. I cook them in the home oven for an hour or so at 250 or 275. That seems to drive most of the moisture out, and then they at least start off burning very well.
> 
> ...


Sigmo, all that you said here should help the AMNPS, although some on this site have success without drying the pellets. I once dried my pellets also, but rather than continue going thru all of that hassle you have mentioned here, plus still problems of keeping the AMNPS lit, I switched to the Tube and it worked well and only went out on me twice. Other than that it was OK and a big improvement over the AMNPS. Then I heard a lot of good things about the Smoke Ring from Smoke Daddy and decided to try it and ended up liking it better than the Tube, (don't have to dry the pellets, easier to light, lights faster, never goes out and puts out a nice consistant smoke to the end) so that is all I now use.. For those that like only a light smoke or barely smoke, they won't like the Tube nor Smoke Ring either one, but for those that like more smoke than the AMNPS puts out, they will like the Tube or my choice which is the Smoke Ring.


----------



## daricksta (Sep 9, 2016)

Sigmo said:


> I think the best advice I can give to keep the AMNPS burning is:
> 
> Pre-dry the pellets. I cook them in the home oven for an hour or so at 250 or 275. That seems to drive most of the moisture out, and then they at least start off burning very well.
> 
> ...


I've read comments from members who said pre-drying the pellets helped and from others who said it didn't help at all. The pellets feel pretty dry already to be when I'm fishing them out of the plastic bag. It was a challenge lighting the oak pellets today so they stay lit but perhaps it's because the bag is a few years old. I piled them deep in the AMNPS because I'm smoking a 5 lb. half of a whole packer brisket--with the point attached--and it's going to be in there a long time. Just checked and that pellets are still going. I check the smoke rising from the top vent every 30 minutes to make sure the pellets are still burning.

I've got a MES 30 Gen 1 with the top vent. I know quite a few members use the mailbox mod where the duct is attached to the wood chip loader hole. I can understand how that would improve airflow and smoke delivery. Are you saying because heat rises that adding a smokestack over the top vent will draw both air and smoke from the lower part of the MES up thru the chimney? I don't know enough about such things to know if that theory will work in my MES 30 or not. Funny thing is that I've been using this smoker for over 4 years and it's just been recently where I've add the AMNPS issues. We'll see how well things go today over the 11+ hours I'll be smoking the brisket. I'm a smoking minimalist and will only try a mod if I think it's absolutely necessary.


----------



## daricksta (Sep 9, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> I guess I forgot to get the pics that I promised daRicksta. I hope this will make amends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Rabbithutch. I find this interesting. You're saying that while grilling and the bottom vents are obscured by charcoal briquettes and the grilling meat you made those marks so when you want to move the bottom vents to half or fully closed you'll know exactly where to move the lever. I would try this but I've never read any grilling recipes--at least the ones I choose to make--that call for anything but wide open top and bottom vents. I think the only exception to this is low and slow cooking over indirect charcoal briquette heat. So, I might go ahead and take a Sharpie to my Weber!


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## rabbithutch (Sep 9, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Thanks, Rabbithutch. I find this interesting. You're saying that while grilling and the bottom vents are obscured by charcoal briquettes and the grilling meat you made those marks so when you want to move the bottom vents to half or fully closed you'll know exactly where to move the lever. I would try this but I've never read any grilling recipes--at least the ones I choose to make--that call for anything but wide open top and bottom vents. I think the only exception to this is low and slow cooking over indirect charcoal briquette heat. So, I might go ahead and take a Sharpie to my Weber!



You've got the idea down pat.  I don't adjust the vents for grilling at all, but I do for controlling temps while smoking food with the lid on.  The lid stays off when I'm grilling.


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## daricksta (Sep 15, 2016)

rabbithutch said:


> You've got the idea down pat. I don't adjust the vents for grilling at all, but I do for controlling temps while smoking food with the lid on. The lid stays off when I'm grilling.


I find also find your last statement interesting because when I grill I keep the lid on even if I'm cooking over indirect heat. I love grilling on the Weber because I do have a lid to use. I remember smoking on a hibachi during college when cooking a steak could take way over an hour because so much heat was lost.


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## supermel (Nov 22, 2016)

Good day!  Long time reader, first time poster.

While this thread has been an interesting read, I am in the market for an Electric Smoker and am looking for advice on what to purchase.  I own a charcoal smoker (Webber), and 2 propane smokers (Both Masterbuilt), that serve me well, however I am looking for something to allow me to smoke during the winter...  In CANADA (Mb)... When its -30C/-22F or colder.  Please note that this smoker would NEVER replace my other smokers.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I agree that Bradley's aren't the best investment, but does anyone have any knowledge on how they are insulated compared to an Electric Masterbuilt?  I smoke weekly during Spring/Summer/Fall, and am feeling pretty down that smoking season is coming to an end.  I've been eyeballing both the Masterbuilt Sportsman Elite 30, Masterbuilt Analog, as well as a Bradley, but even local employees that sell the smokers can't seem to tell me about how well they are insulated and if smoking at 225 would even be possible without overworking parts during the winter.  Thought I'd ask some of you pro's on this forum!

So...  Any Canuks on here that smoke thru the winter?  Thanks for your help!

:)  Mel


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## daricksta (Nov 22, 2016)

SuperMel said:


> Good day!  Long time reader, first time poster.
> 
> While this thread has been an interesting read, I am in the market for an Electric Smoker and am looking for advice on what to purchase.  I own a charcoal smoker (Webber), and 2 propane smokers (Both Masterbuilt), that serve me well, however I am looking for something to allow me to smoke during the winter...  In CANADA (Mb)... When its -30C/-22F or colder.  Please note that this smoker would NEVER replace my other smokers.
> 
> ...


Bradley claims its electric digital 4-rack smoker has a fully insulated stainless steel interior. I think all their smokers are designed like that. I've never considered a Bradley because I didn't want to be restricted to using their wood bisquettes since I prefer wood pellets, buying from merchants _I_ choose to do business with. I also don't like electric-motor-driven augers that feed the wood products into the heating element area. Anything electric and with moving parts can break down and need replacing. That's why I've stuck with my MES 30 and the AMNPS (and now the 6" AMNTS, which is a tube smoker), and a variety of wood pellets.

Don't know where you're located in Canada but I'm hugging your PNW border down here in WA state. I've heard that people who live in the colder winter regions down here have problems using their MES digital and analog units outside. I don't like smoking or grilling in cold or in rain so I shut operations down. If I get a decent weekend or two before Christmas I like to smoke cheeses and beef jerky to hand out as gifts. Everyone just loves 'em.

Watch out _which_ MES Sportsman Elite you buy. That's MB's catch-all brand for big box outdoorsy retail stores. You'll see SEs with 4 or 6 racks, meat probes, sausage racks, and some other extras. The packages will vary and sometimes certain packages will be offered only at certain times of the year like...now. Just look at the prices and check places like Cabela's, Sportman's Warehouse, Tractor Supply Co., but also look for deals from big box retailers. There are of course other major brick and mortar/online retailers but there are a few I just don't ever shop with.


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## n4ynu (Nov 23, 2016)

If you are in extreme cold, I would do the homework and find a model that has wall insulation, it will cost more of course, I have the elite 30, the walls are not insulated but it does have a 1500 watt element, but 


daRicksta said:


> SuperMel said:
> 
> 
> > Good day!  Long time reader, first time poster.
> ...


If you are in extreme cold, I would do the homework and find a model that has wall insulation, it will cost more of course, I have the elite 30, the walls are not insulated but it does have a 1500 watt element, but there are some models I have seen that are well insulated yet have a considerably higher retail price.

The Elite 30 may work and is a nice piece, especially with the mods, but not sure about the temps, the only over working you would be doing is on your power bill from more cycling to hold temps inside considering the outdoor temps you are speaking of.

I have not done it yet, but my end game with mine regarding temps and to escape the effects of wind causing temp swings as well, is to move it indoors in my shop, going to build a hood for the smoker out of Luan and use a very small exhaust fan (12V ) to pull the air minimally to keep it out of the shop, this way I can negate the effects high wind is having as well as control ambient external temps to a degree as well, not to mention it will solve the bad weather issues so I can smoke in the rain or snow  :).

The Elite 30 with the original air intake and exhaust ports and the 1500W element should be able to do what you want, the extra cycling from the outdoor temps should not wear out anything, especially if it is the analog version, you will just see a increase in electric usage according to the temp extremes.


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## forluvofsmoke (Nov 23, 2016)

SuperMel said:


> Good day!  Long time reader, first time poster.
> 
> While this thread has been an interesting read, I am in the market for an Electric Smoker and am looking for advice on what to purchase.  I own a charcoal smoker (Webber), and 2 propane smokers (Both Masterbuilt), that serve me well, however I am looking for something to allow me to smoke during the winter...  In CANADA (Mb)... When its -30C/-22F or colder.  Please note that this smoker would NEVER replace my other smokers.
> 
> ...


Smoking and grilling season? Didn't know there was one...it never ends for me. I've pulled through -30*F all-nighters on pulled pork smokes, and that was many years ago. I've been known to be out tending the smoke in blizzard conditions. I will admit, I've never owned or used an electric outdoor cooker...propane was my usual game, with an occasional charcoal conversion, then a cheapo charcoal bullet (tons of mods), until I went to the dark side a few years ago...all charcoal, all Weber...except for my dutch ovens, of course.

If you have a WSM, just load it up with hardwood lump and a big enough fire to start with...it will produce enough BTUs to get the job done. Regular charcoal briquettes are bit on the slow side in colder weather. As with any outdoor cooker, you need to keep them out of the wind above all else, next to precipitation...either one will suck the heat right out of a non-insulated smoker.

I know a guy who had a Bradley...said he couldn't get it over 185* on most days in the winter, even when in his garage out of the weather. His was only a 600-watt heating element. Any 1200-1500 watt element should do the job, but make sure you're extension cords (if you use them) are heavy enough to handle the length of run with that high of current draw.

I'm smoking Idaho Potatoes in my WSM right now with briquettes providing the heat under a dry water pan...35*F ambient, 250* on the lid, and I started with an average sized fire over a cold bed of reserve fuel. Speaking of water pans, don't use water if need more heat...evaporating water kills your temps.

Oh, what goes with the potatoes? Cold smoked/seared Ribeyes on the Weber OTG 26.75" kettle...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Eric


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## daricksta (Nov 24, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Smoking and grilling season? Didn't know there was one...it never ends for me. I've pulled through -30*F all-nighters on pulled pork smokes, and that was many years ago. I've been known to be out tending the smoke in blizzard conditions. I will admit, I've never owned or used an electric outdoor cooker...propane was my usual game, with an occasional charcoal conversion, then a cheapo charcoal bullet (tons of mods), until I went to the dark side a few years ago...all charcoal, all Weber...except for my dutch ovens, of course.
> 
> If you have a WSM, just load it up with hardwood lump and a big enough fire to start with...it will produce enough BTUs to get the job done. Regular charcoal briquettes are bit on the slow side in colder weather. As with any outdoor cooker, you need to keep them out of the wind above all else, next to precipitation...either one will suck the heat right out of a non-insulated smoker.
> 
> ...


You cold smoked the ribeyes? I did something similar for Father's Day two years ago. I hot smoked the steaks using hickory wood pellets and then reverse seared them on my 22.5" Weber OTS. My family loved them but I knew that I had overcooked the steaks by a little bit. My son, like me, likes steak medium rare, but my wife and daughter go for the medium well and beyond.


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## ianoconnor (Nov 24, 2016)

MES30 $130 right now at Amazon:


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## forluvofsmoke (Nov 24, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > Smoking and grilling season? Didn't know there was one...it never ends for me. I've pulled through -30*F all-nighters on pulled pork smokes, and that was many years ago. I've been known to be out tending the smoke in blizzard conditions. I will admit, I've never owned or used an electric outdoor cooker...propane was my usual game, with an occasional charcoal conversion, then a cheapo charcoal bullet (tons of mods), until I went to the dark side a few years ago...all charcoal, all Weber...except for my dutch ovens, of course.
> ...


Hey Rick, yeah, cold smoked...4 charcoal briquettes in a basket in the rear of the kettle, lid venting toward the front (evens out grate temps pretty well...I hot smoke potatoes this way, also, with basket full of charcoal). This last run was about 60-65* on the grate for 1.25 hrs. 4 charcoal briquettes to keep 1 med-small chunk each of hickory and cherry smoldering. 1"+ thick steaks, probably just hitting room temp by the time I toss a full bed of hot coals into the kettle, put the bare grate on to preheat for a couple minutes and toss the steaks back on when hot enough to sizzle nicely when they hit the grate (hot to the bare palm @ 3-4" above the grate). It's much easier to sear to desired I/T than when hot smoking. You need a blazing hot grill to get enough sear to even make it worth your effort if you hot smoked anything over about 150* for 25-30 minutes, because the steaks may be 100*+ I/T before you start the sear...that only gives you about 2-3 minutes per side...figure 700-750* grate temp to get 'em seared that quickly for med-rare finish...that's a job for hardwood lump, IMHO...most briquettes under most conditions won't even come close, unless you pile them up to within 1.5" or so below the grate. 500* will get a decent sear if you cold smoke, and allows you more time to judge when you want to pull them off for plating...takes about 5-6 minutes/side. You even have time to stick a digital pocket meat therm into them, which I rarely do, but have on occasion.

I have warm smoked in the summer...same principle, just higher temps due to ambient conditions. 110-120* grate temps for an hour won't hurt anything, and is perfectly safe because you'll be finished cooking them within another 20 minutes or less over hot coals. Even chicken pieces that take 45  minutes or so to finish with a sear are going to be safe.

If you're using a pellet smoke generator such the AMNPS or AMNTS, then you're ready to roll with cold smoke and sear. Give 'em 45-60 minutes (or 25-30 minutes if want to lighten it up a bit), pull the pellet smoker and snuff it out, lay on a good hot bed of coals and let it rip. The pellet smokers may not take the high heat of a full load of coals very well...they tend to flare-up and burn up all the pellets as fuel, so no point in leaving it on the grate when searing.

I know what you mean about overcooking them...it's easy to do if you hot smoke. I prefer cold smoke & sear for two reasons: you can more easily regulate the smoke flavor without heat. You can actually get far more flavor than when hot-smoking, if you like...smoke sticks to cold meat more readily than warm/hot surfaces. The steaks (chicken pieces, chops, any small cuts) are barely warming through from the smoke, so when you go to sear them up it's almost the same as if you tempered them at room temp and just tossed 'em on the grill, only you tempered them with smoke...if that makes sense.

I highly recommend cold smoke & sear for smaller cuts. It's a one-cooker job with a kettle and is faster than hot smoking alone...even a gas grill would work, but in recent years I use propane for one thing: igniting charcoal. It's my favorite way to cook small cuts, and everyone who's had them this way prefers the flavors over any other method I've used, and any method they've used, as well. It's the best of both worlds...your favorite smoke, along with an ever so slight char from your favorite charcoal or lump. I even keep the smoke wood in the kettle when searing (lid on) for that little bit of extra smoke on the back-side...yeah, you gotta try it, brother...it's a snap to create great eats.

Thinking back on this now, I actually started using the cold smoke & sear method in the spring of 2009 so I could cook after work and still get my smokin' fix...family loved the eats and so did I. I was cranking out meats for 2-3+ meals per week after work, then slamming out the long smokes on weekends...I've slowed down a lot since then, but what a ride!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Nov 27, 2016)

ianoconnor said:


> MES30 $130 right now at Amazon:


It's now $110.49. If anyone was thinking of buying a starter smoker or just to have it as a 2nd smoker, this is the strike price. Almost five years ago I paid $189 for this same smoker. I've had a great time with it and cooked some really good Q.


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## daricksta (Nov 27, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Hey Rick, yeah, cold smoked...4 charcoal briquettes in a basket in the rear of the kettle, lid venting toward the front (evens out grate temps pretty well...I hot smoke potatoes this way, also, with basket full of charcoal). This last run was about 60-65* on the grate for 1.25 hrs. 4 charcoal briquettes to keep 1 med-small chunk each of hickory and cherry smoldering. 1"+ thick steaks, probably just hitting room temp by the time I toss a full bed of hot coals into the kettle, put the bare grate on to preheat for a couple minutes and toss the steaks back on when hot enough to sizzle nicely when they hit the grate (hot to the bare palm @ 3-4" above the grate). It's much easier to sear to desired I/T than when hot smoking. You need a blazing hot grill to get enough sear to even make it worth your effort if you hot smoked anything over about 150* for 25-30 minutes, because the steaks may be 100*+ I/T before you start the sear...that only gives you about 2-3 minutes per side...figure 700-750* grate temp to get 'em seared that quickly for med-rare finish...that's a job for hardwood lump, IMHO...most briquettes under most conditions won't even come close, unless you pile them up to within 1.5" or so below the grate. 500* will get a decent sear if you cold smoke, and allows you more time to judge when you want to pull them off for plating...takes about 5-6 minutes/side. You even have time to stick a digital pocket meat therm into them, which I rarely do, but have on occasion.
> 
> I have warm smoked in the summer...same principle, just higher temps due to ambient conditions. 110-120* grate temps for an hour won't hurt anything, and is perfectly safe because you'll be finished cooking them within another 20 minutes or less over hot coals. Even chicken pieces that take 45  minutes or so to finish with a sear are going to be safe.
> 
> ...


Eric, this is the first I've ever read of cold smoking steaks. Where did you learn about it back in 2009? My only problem with what you've wrote is that I can't visualize it. Believe me, it's all me and nothing you wrote. I'll just need to read it a few times because I want to try out this technique. I never think of cold smoking on my Weber OTS but I have done indirect cooking and a little of zone cooking. jted is a big fan of the charcoal snake method, which I've yet to try.

The reason why I own a 22.5" Weber OTS is because I don't believe in propane grills, not even for lighting charcoal briquettes. That's what my Weber chimney starter is for (along with the Weber paraffin cubes). I rarely do long hot smokes: pork ribs and beer can chicken take the longest times. I'm usually grilling steaks of some sort or cheeseburgers, with the occasional cedar plank sockeye salmon and grilled vegies just to prove I can.


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## forluvofsmoke (Nov 27, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Eric, this is the first I've ever read of cold smoking steaks. Where did you learn about it back in 2009? My only problem with what you've wrote is that I can't visualize it. Believe me, it's all me and nothing you wrote. I'll just need to read it a few times because I want to try out this technique. I never think of cold smoking on my Weber OTS but I have done indirect cooking and a little of zone cooking. jted is a big fan of the charcoal snake method, which I've yet to try.
> 
> The reason why I own a 22.5" Weber OTS is because I don't believe in propane grills, not even for lighting charcoal briquettes. That's what my Weber chimney starter is for (along with the Weber paraffin cubes). I rarely do long hot smokes: pork ribs and beer can chicken take the longest times. I'm usually grilling steaks of some sort or cheeseburgers, with the occasional cedar plank sockeye salmon and grilled vegies just to prove I can.


I think it was just another one of those "what if" moments I had when I wanted something cooked outdoors for dinner after work...February '09 seems like when it all started for me. No research involved...no looking up how somebody else did it...didn't even know if anybody else was doing it at the time. Turns out there were a few others who were using similar methods with different equipment who responded to me after I started posting about it back then. Some thought the same thing I did...nobody else must be doing it, because nobody was posting about it..small world, huh? Some were even doing it on gas grills, but it was a charcoal kettle gig for me.

Oh, me and propane? Pretty much the same as you, only I use a propane burner to set my chimney on just to get it started. Other than that I don't have much use for it. I've even cooked part of our breakfast for a gathering last summer in a 15" Lodge CI skillet on my Weber OTG 18.5" with charcoal...worked like a charm, with nice, even heating all the way across the skillet...imagine that. Nobody makes an affordably priced burner big enough for those skillets, so I figure, why bother with propane...if the kettle works (and it does, beautifully), use it. I have a 34" stainless steel propane grill with infrared for rotisserie, side burner, etc, that I haven't used for...huh, can't even remember how long...probably 7 years, anyway...just didn't like the results I was getting from it.

Winter is the best time for cold smoking fresh steaks, as I'm sure you already know, but it works fine in the summer, too...just warmer temps when smoking. A couple briquettes is all you need to heat a chunk or 2 of smoke wood. Keep the meat away from the heat source just like you would for indirect. Not much to it, really.

I noticed when smoking with warmer temps that there's a smoke ring under the surface (not always, but usually) at around 120* grate temps for 40-45 minutes and then seared fast...doesn't mean much, but cool to look at and sometimes there's little to no grey meat under the char, just the smoke ring. Really made me look close when I first saw it...my first thought was "no way...not possible". With colder smoke temps the steak doesn't start to really cook until you actually sear it, and there may be a bit less smoke reaction deeper into the meat due to temps being so low during exposure to smoke. But, there's more time for searing with a bit more rainbow effect when sliced...I don't worry about, but for the hard-core steak enthusiasts, well, there's a tip for you to ponder.

Overall, for the best effect on what would be my perfect med-rare steak, yielding a smoke ring with little grey meat under the charred surface and good smoke flavor, the 120* smoke temp would be my target. The drawback is the need for a REALLY hot grill temp for searing to avoid overcooking...that's when a bag of lump comes in handy. Colder smoke temps are more forgiving on the searing, as you can take a bit longer with a bit cooler fire to sear. It's all about personal preference...I enjoy doing it both ways (cold & warm smoke) as I can experiment with the variables a little when I feel like it. If you want a warm smoke in winter just add a few extra briquettes to find the grate temps you're looking for. You may find over time that you like the results from a 100* smoke better than 60*, or 120* better than 100*. Just remember, higher smoke temp usually calls for hotter searing temps if you actually want a little char before it hits your desired I/T.

Hope this helps you visualize it better. If you've been cooking indirect, just use a way smaller fire...just enough to keep the smoke coming, and maybe a bit extra for slightly elevated grate temps...meat away from the heat as usual.

Eric


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## daricksta (Nov 28, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I think it was just another one of those "what if" moments I had when I wanted something cooked outdoors for dinner after work...February '09 seems like when it all started for me. No research involved...no looking up how somebody else did it...didn't even know if anybody else was doing it at the time. Turns out there were a few others who were using similar methods with different equipment who responded to me after I started posting about it back then. Some thought the same thing I did...nobody else must be doing it, because nobody was posting about it..small world, huh? Some were even doing it on gas grills, but it was a charcoal kettle gig for me.
> 
> Oh, me and propane? Pretty much the same as you, only I use a propane burner to set my chimney on just to get it started. Other than that I don't have much use for it. I've even cooked part of our breakfast for a gathering last summer in a 15" Lodge CI skillet on my Weber OTG 18.5" with charcoal...worked like a charm, with nice, even heating all the way across the skillet...imagine that. Nobody makes an affordably priced burner big enough for those skillets, so I figure, why bother with propane...if the kettle works (and it does, beautifully), use it. I have a 34" stainless steel propane grill with infrared for rotisserie, side burner, etc, that I haven't used for...huh, can't even remember how long...probably 7 years, anyway...just didn't like the results I was getting from it.
> 
> ...


Winter is the best time for cold smoking fresh steaks, as I'm sure you already know. I know in general winter's best for cold smokes (but I hate cold smoking or any type of outdoor cooking in cold weather, you know?) but you give me too much credit. I never thought of cold smoking steaks. By "120* grate temps" do you mean the heat at the surface of the cooking grate? What do you use to measure that in a Weber? I have a Maverick infrared therm gun that I use to test the heat coming up off the charcoal briquettes when indirect cooking. I can test the heat in the two fuel holders on the side and the heat underneath where I have the meat positioned. Now, you're saying you go for 120° from both the charcoal briquettes and the wood chunks? I've thought of buying chunks but I use pellets in a 6" AMNTS in my Weber. I could try wood chunks to experiment with getting that smoke ring.

Anyway, I'm a kinesthetic learner so I'll need to print out everything you posted and take it with me to Weber when I'm all set to give it a try. Thanks for all the info, Eric. I plan to give this a try.

Rick


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## forluvofsmoke (Nov 28, 2016)

daRicksta said:


> Winter is the best time for cold smoking fresh steaks, as I'm sure you already know. I know in general winter's best for cold smokes (but I hate cold smoking or any type of outdoor cooking in cold weather, you know?) but you give me too much credit. I never thought of cold smoking steaks. By "120* grate temps" do you mean the heat at the surface of the cooking grate? What do you use to measure that in a Weber? I have a Maverick infrared therm gun that I use to test the heat coming up off the charcoal briquettes when indirect cooking. I can test the heat in the two fuel holders on the side and the heat underneath where I have the meat positioned. Now, you're saying you go for 120° from both the charcoal briquettes and the wood chunks? I've thought of buying chunks but I use pellets in a 6" AMNTS in my Weber. I could try wood chunks to experiment with getting that smoke ring.
> 
> Anyway, I'm a kinesthetic learner so I'll need to print out everything you posted and take it with me to Weber when I'm all set to give it a try. Thanks for all the info, Eric. I plan to give this a try.
> 
> Rick


Rick, I have a couple of those little Maverick Pit Probes. It's just a separate high-temp rated probe specifically for grate temp monitoring. Comes with a clip that attaches to the grate. The head unit averages your grate temp from the time you turn it on until you turn it off. Turning it off & back on resets the average and it will read the current temp at that time...kinda handy for longer smokes so you can walk away and find out how your peaks and valleys averaged out later. Anyway, as for grate temps when I smoke, cold, warm or hot, these probes are nice for that measurement.

With my 26.75" kettle I rarely even monitor grate temps anymore. My lid therm runs about 80* warmer than grate temps near the center with offset fire(s), so unless I have wild weather conditions to deal with the kettle holds nice and steady temps for a couple hours without touching it at all.

I'm right there with you on cold weather and not being in that weather. My bones don't take long to start aching. I still do a few long smokes no and then for family gatherings, regardless of the weather, but I make my visits to cookers few, short and to the point.

As for smoke sources, I've had great results from chunks with charcoal, whether for hot or cold smoking. I have a 5x8 AMNPS and a 12" prototype AMNTS from back in the day when Todd was still having some of us work out the details for finding the best methods for their use in electric, propane and charcoal smokers. Anyway, My pellet supply ran out and before then I had pretty much gone to the dark side (all charcoal). I have some rather large chunks that I need to break down a bit smaller, but most of the chunks I use are 2" thick or smaller. I reserve the larger chunks for longer smokes, which I don't do very often any more.

As far as regulating your grate temps in the kettle for cold smoking steaks, chops and such, don't get overly concerned about the actual temps and trying to get them higher or lower right off the bat. Just keep the fire small, set a chunk of wood on it and let it do it's thing. Watch grate temps to determine how long you want to smoke, and, how hot of a fire you'll want for searing. Again, warmer smoke = hotter fire for searing faster.

You're welcome for the assistance and inspiration to give cold smoked & seared steaks a try. I know once you do them a couple times you'll be hooked for life. Best part is you can play with the variables of time in the smoke, temp for smoke, and searing temps...not to mention smoke wood species and seasonings. It's all good fun and great eats!!!

Eric


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## daricksta (Nov 29, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Rick, I have a couple of those little Maverick Pit Probes. It's just a separate high-temp rated probe specifically for grate temp monitoring. Comes with a clip that attaches to the grate. The head unit averages your grate temp from the time you turn it on until you turn it off. Turning it off & back on resets the average and it will read the current temp at that time...kinda handy for longer smokes so you can walk away and find out how your peaks and valleys averaged out later. Anyway, as for grate temps when I smoke, cold, warm or hot, these probes are nice for that measurement.
> 
> With my 26.75" kettle I rarely even monitor grate temps anymore. My lid therm runs about 80* warmer than grate temps near the center with offset fire(s), so unless I have wild weather conditions to deal with the kettle holds nice and steady temps for a couple hours without touching it at all.
> 
> ...


Eric, which model(s) is the pit probe? I just checked the Maverick site and didn't anything marked specifically for grilling grates. I also greatly admire you've got the 26.75" kettle. I've seen that when I used to watch Bobby Flay on Food Network. Many times my 22.5" is too large for the few steaks or burgers I cook. But the times I need a larger grill are few, like the time when I grilled up cheeseburgers and hot dogs for my daughter's Master's graduation celebration party and had to grill in several batches. The best thing about my OTS is that my wife only paid $70 on sale years ago for it as a Father's Day gift from her and our kids. Since then I bought the hinged cooking great and the enclosed ash catcher to make it more like a OTG. I love that grill to pieces, even more than my MES 30.

You worked with Todd since way back when along with guys like Bear and Scarbelly? I never knew that. But anyway, I thought of buying some hickory chunks for the Weber when I grilled a tri-tip roast Santa Maria-style (the recipe called for them) but I chose to go with wood pellets in a 6-in. AMNTS. The problem was that the pellets kept going out. Not sure why there was an airflow issue because even with the cover on I had the top and bottom air vents wide open, like I usually do. I had the AMNTS placed on the charcoal grate under one of the hinges on the cooking grate. I do believe I'll buy some chunks next spring when I break out the Weber again.

I also need to work on not overloading the chimney starter. My ongoing problem has been too hot a temp for ribs, steaks, and even indirect cooking of beer can chicken. I'm always afraid of not loading enough charcoal briquettes and so I overdo it. So thank you for this ongoing mentoring. Can't wait to try your suggestions when grilling/smoking weather (for me) comes around next year. I'm not even sure about smoking cheeses and jerky this year to hand out as Xmas gifts. They've been really popular but it seems like with each year I age (BD's in December) I'm getting stiffer and achier as the weather gets colder.


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## forluvofsmoke (Nov 29, 2016)

Rick, OT-3BBQ is the model...I searched OT-03BBQ as printed on the back, with no results...I think I got them from wally-world.com for about $18/ea a few years back. On Maverick's site click on BBQ Forks and Probes...bottom right of the page...they're a bit more spendy than I paid if ordered direct. You could use your standard meat probes for grate temp monitoring, if you like...most will easily handle 300* without damage to the probe. You just need a small wood block or something to stick them through to keep the probe sensor off the grate itself...some say it can throw off the temp reading. I've even drilled a hole through a smoke wood chunk...LOL!!!

The Weber OTG 26.75" is a beast, which could handle a 20lb brisket indirect, if one didn't mind fire-tending every 3-4 hours. I've found early that the standard 3-leg system is entirely insufficient at supporting that heavy grill and lid. I've had to drill-out the spot welds on the tabs of the leg mounts into the fire-bowl and pop-rivet them, and even that doesn't hold up for very long with aluminum rivets. I don't want to use steel rivets as they may be too strong and cause the fire-bowl to become damaged. You have to rivet from the inside out or the rivets block the movement of the self-cleaning sweeps. I transport my grills several times per year...the 18.5 handles it fine...the 26.75, even with 4 tie-down straps for stability, not so much. The weak legs/mounts are really my only complaint with the 26, though.

If one really wanted to spend some cash on a kettle the Ranch Kettle will wipe out your account in a hurry. In comparison, the 26.75" is 580 sq in, the Ranch is 1100 sq in, approx 37.75" grate diameter...not quite double the size and over 4 times the price...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 Can you imagine managing food on that grill, reaching across a 3' diameter grill? Not what I'd call fun...I have long arms, but welding gloves only go so far past my wrists before my arm catches all the radiant heat of the fire (I don't have the full welder's leathers...that'd be sweet, though).

For me, having the OTG 18.5 (for which I have a rotisserie kit), it's perfect for just 2-3 people. When I cook for gatherings I add the 26 to the mix, and depending, the WSM 18. The 18 rotisserie can do 2-5lb yard birds with an extra pair of tines, or 1 bird and 1 squash, or??? Think I'll spin my prime rib this Christmas, with smoke, of course...should handle 10-12lb, no problem.

Eric


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## daricksta (Nov 29, 2016)

forluvofsmoke said:


> Rick, OT-3BBQ is the model...I searched OT-03BBQ as printed on the back, with no results...I think I got them from wally-world.com for about $18/ea a few years back. On Maverick's site click on BBQ Forks and Probes...bottom right of the page...they're a bit more spendy than I paid if ordered direct. You could use your standard meat probes for grate temp monitoring, if you like...most will easily handle 300* without damage to the probe. You just need a small wood block or something to stick them through to keep the probe sensor off the grate itself...some say it can throw off the temp reading. I've even drilled a hole through a smoke wood chunk...LOL!!!
> 
> The Weber OTG 26.75" is a beast, which could handle a 20lb brisket indirect, if one didn't mind fire-tending every 3-4 hours. I've found early that the standard 3-leg system is entirely insufficient at supporting that heavy grill and lid. I've had to drill-out the spot welds on the tabs of the leg mounts into the fire-bowl and pop-rivet them, and even that doesn't hold up for very long with aluminum rivets. I don't want to use steel rivets as they may be too strong and cause the fire-bowl to become damaged. You have to rivet from the inside out or the rivets block the movement of the self-cleaning sweeps. I transport my grills several times per year...the 18.5 handles it fine...the 26.75, even with 4 tie-down straps for stability, not so much. The weak legs/mounts are really my only complaint with the 26, though.
> 
> ...


OK, found it where you said it'd be and on Amazon. I can see the value in being able to monitor an average temp at the grate level but I think the next time I buy a therm like this I'll save up and buy a ThermoWorks. In a perfect world, I'd love the Ranch kettle--if I owned my dream ranch. As if I'd ever have money. If I did, the wife would tell me "Happy Birthday, Father's Day and Christmas for the next ten years." The 22.5" OTS was perfect when we had our two kids living at home. But now I can fairly hear the meat sizzle echoing throughout the inside of the lid since there's so much empty space when I'm grilling a couple of burgers or steaks for the wife and me. Sometimes we have one of her brothers over for dinner so I get to use more grate real estate. For last Father's Day I did surf & turf on the grill for six of us. Did the ribeyes first and as they rested I put on the small lobster tails. It was great. Then for a special dinner for my wife, her bro, and me I did 3 NY steaks and two cedar plank sockeye salmon fillets. They all fit at the same time! But those situations are rare. I once smoked a 20-lb Thanksgiving turkey on it and it turned out superb, among the best turkeys I've ever made. But my wife invaded TG and captured the TG turkey roasting region, placing armed troops and weapons all around. She makes one heck of a turkey, though, best I've ever had. Still and all, glad I got the that size kettle.

As for the probes, I have the ET-733 but I could only use it for indirect cooking because typically I'm direct grilling at 700-900°.  That's why I bought the laser gun therm. We've got a slim budget so I have to carefully choose the grilling/smoking accessories I buy.

Know who could manage a grill the size of the Ranch? A chuck wagon cook on a ranch or on a trail drive. Or an outdoor cooking catering company. I can imagine my buying a grill of that immense size, and using maybe a postage stamp-sized area of it to cook those two cheeseburgers. I store my Weber inside my garage (where I also store my MES 30) but a grill that size would need to remain outside and covered at all times when not in use. Can't store it inside our backyard because that's used for our home daycare and I'd be paranoid about storing it outside the backyard fence. So, 22.5" OTS it is! I'd like to buy the rotisserie kit but I can't bring myself to pay for an accessory that costs more than my entire grill. So I remain rotisserieless.

The weakest part of the Weber kettle grill designs are the legs. Unlike you, I don't cook heavy meats like whole packer briskets in it. But, I had several frustrating years when they kept falling off. Some of the guys here advised I buy some self-tapping metal screws and permanently attach the legs inside the brackets. Problem solved!

Rick


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## sssmoking (Nov 29, 2016)

have you looked at smoke hollow? I just got one of their units and like it so far..not too thrilled about the 90 warranty on masterbuilt... But I'm just getting my feet wet... I just started this delicious journey...


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## jack l (Feb 3, 2017)




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## daricksta (Feb 3, 2017)

Jack L said:


>


I disagree about the amount of bark that can be produced in an electric smoker. You can get great bark but it takes a bit more work. That can involve not wrapping ribs, briskets and pork butts/shoulders or wrapping no longer than a couple of hours (maybe more for roasts). Wrapping steams the meat, which is also the reason I keep the water pan empty and foil it over in my Masterbuilt 30" 1st generation electric digital smoker.

As for smoke, I've oversmoked meats with meat pellets, gotten it perfect, and also had not enough smoke flavor. Again, that's technique and also what you use to produce smoke. The technique, of course, involves how many hours you expose the meat/fish to smoke and what type of wood you're using--and if it's in pellet, chip, or chunk form.


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## jack l (Feb 3, 2017)

I never wrap my meat even when using indirect fire. So the amount of bark will be relative. Besides the 3D is sealed so tight that you don't need to wrap. Technique goes out the window since there is more science than art involved.

As for over smoking, I am talking about using pecan from the family farm.

The 3D uses wood chunks where as you know a little goes a long way.


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## daricksta (Feb 3, 2017)

Jack L said:


> I never wrap my meat even when using indirect fire. So the amount of bark will be relative. Besides the 3D is sealed so tight that you don't need to wrap. Technique goes out the window since there is more science than art involved.
> 
> As for over smoking, I am talking about using pecan from the family farm.
> 
> The 3D uses wood chunks where as you know a little goes a long way.


For me I view it as technique because I'm not as knowledgeable about the science side of it. As you know there can be many decisions to make regarding all aspects of cook. I have been a big proponent of wrapping but I plan to do it only in specialized situations from now on, especially so since I bought a large roll of butcher paper before I decided to keep the meat naked for most smokes.

I've got pecan wood pellets but haven't used them much. I can imagine how well the pecan wood from your trees work. It's a challenge to discern smoke smell and flavor differences among wood pellets, at least for me. Pecan is supposed to be like a lighter form of hickory and it's extremely popular for smoking pork in the South.


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## dr k (Feb 3, 2017)

I like to dry meat open a little in the fridge overnight with the rub on it wet so it sticks to the meat and stays on as a pellicle forms. I put salt on separately right before it goes in the smoker. The tackiness holds smoke but is primed to form bark by not being out of the package wet. This is for roasts/pulled pork etc. Longer smokes that require a higher IT.  I do wrap when it stalls with plenty of bark.  Ribs aren't smoked as long and I use prepared mustard for the rub to stick to. If you want bark, dry the surface of the meat so it doesn't steam at the beginning. Save that part for the stall when you wrap. The best sear on steaks is when the surface is completely dry and can't steam. 
-Kurt


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## daricksta (Feb 4, 2017)

Dr K said:


> I like to dry meat open a little in the fridge overnight with the rub on it wet so it sticks to the meat and stays on as a pellicle forms. I put salt on separately right before it goes in the smoker. The tackiness holds smoke but is primed to form bark by not being out of the package wet. This is for roasts/pulled pork etc. Longer smokes that require a higher IT. I do wrap when it stalls with plenty of bark. Ribs aren't smoked as long and I use prepared mustard for the rub to stick to. If you want bark, dry the surface of the meat so it doesn't steam at the beginning. Save that part for the stall when you wrap. The best sear on steaks is when the surface is completely dry and can't steam.
> -Kurt


I've applied dry rub on meat and wrapped it in plastic to keep all night in the fridge before a smoke. I don't think it made any difference in the bark or lack of a firm bark. But I've looked at videos of Aaron Franklin and of others. Franklin takes a beef brisket or some pork ribs that have obviously been set out at room temp for a while and just slaps on the salt and pepper. He rarely wraps his ribs and even less with the brisket. I did see a TV show segment on a BBQ place and it showed the cook pulling meat from the restaurant smoker and unwrapping it from the aluminum foil. Franklin smokes his brisket at 250° and wraps in butcher paper only when he feels the situation calls for it. I saw a recipe claiming to be Franklin's that was badly edited but claimed that when a brisket hit an IT of 185-203°F IT he wrapped it in butcher paper and put it in the smoker for another couple of hours. Then he either placed it in a 200° oven for a few more hours and then put it in a cooler for a few more hours. I've looked at his videos and at least at his restaurant he doesn't seem to be doing the latter two steps.


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