# Tenderquick to pink salt conversion



## phogi

Hey yall.

I'm making some pork confit. But I only have tenderquick. My recipe calls for 1/2 tsp.  pink salt. How much tenderquick do I need to match that?


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## graystratcat

Hey Phogi, as for the use of TQ in place of cure #1 for your confit, I would have to defer to someone else on the forum as to it being a suitable substitution since I've never cured confit....

As for the amount and use of TQ in gerenal, there should be directions on that package of Tender Quick as to the amount to use per pound of meat or gallon of brine.  It would be safer just to follow the manufacture's directions as to the amount of TQ to use instead of trying to do a conversion.  In addition to salt, TQ has both Sodium Nitrite and Sodium Nitrate in it whereas pink salt or cure #1 is salt and 6.25% Sodium Nitrite only.

Hopefully someone can address the feasibility of the substitution question for you regarding confit.

-Salt

Edited to add:  I did a little more research on cured confit since this post got my curiosity going... and all the recipes I found list Cure 1 with no mention of TQ.  With that said, I'm still not sure if TQ would be a good substitution...but... after reading some of the recipes for cured confit... I think I'm going to have to give it a try.  Sounds very good!


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## SmokinAl

If I were you I would just get some cure #1. Whenever a recipe calls for cure #1 the amount of salt you add would be different than if you were using TQ. If a recipe calls for TQ that's what I would use & the same goes for cure #1. Some of the experts on here can probably interchange the cures in a recipe, but for safety & taste reasons I just follow the recipe directions & the directions on the package of cure #1 or TQ.


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## alblancher

i am not aware of TQ to Cure 1 conversion except those that adjust for the salt and not the nitrate/nitrite.  i looked over a couple of pork confit recipes and they list the cure as either optional or not used at all.  Maybe you can consider going that way.


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## venture

I agree with both Al's!

Unless you really know exactly what you are doing, this could be a dangerous attempt.

Also, subbing in TQ for #1 is complicated by the huge and unknown amounts of salt and sugar in the TQ as compared to #1.  We know about the percentage of salt and sugar combined in TQ, but I think the proportions of salt to sugar in TQ is proprietary info.  We could make a guess?  But I don't work with guesses when using curing products.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## DanMcG

Could you share the recipe? you mentioned 1/2 a tsp but not the weight of the meat. I'm wondering if it's use for color and not curing?


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## phogi

Well, I decided to just use 1 tbs TenderQuick per pound. The recipe is out of Michael Ruhlman's book "Charcuterie" which, btw, is an AMAZING book. So, it is a copyrighted recipe, so I cannot share it.

But the idea is this: Buy some back fat. Render it. Buy some pork. Cut into one inch or larger cubes or slices. Dry rub with cure and lots of fresh herbs and seasonings. Let is sit 24-48 hours in the fridge. Then remove from the fridge, and rinse it off. That fat you rendered? Heat it up in a saucepan til it is liquid. Sink the cubes in the fat (Spaced out from one another, I think), then put it in the oven for many hours at the lowest possible temp. Now that I think about it, I think a crok pot might be the best way to do it. After that, stick it in the fridge. It will keep for months. When you'd like to eat some, dig it out of the fat, clean it off, and heat it however you like...pan seared, pan fried, shallow fry, deep fry, BBQ, etc...

Anyway, that is confit. Most popularly done with duck in duck fat. This will be my first attempt at it!


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## venture

I would be interested to know about your assessment of the saltiness of the dish?

Also, I don't think there is a problem sharing a recipe as long as we credit the source?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## sausageboy

Recipes ain't copyrightable, only collections of recipes can be copyrighted.
Photos and 'creative' writing surrounding and relating to the recipe are, of course, copyrighted.

*Lists of ingredients are not copyrightable.*

From the U.S. Copyright Office website...
_"Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions."_

*Recipe directions and ingredient amounts are not copyrightable.*

_"Nor can there be copyright in the method one might use in preparing and combining the necessary ingredients. *Protection for ideas or processes is the purview of patent*."_

See the case of PUBLICATIONS INTERNATIONAL, LIMITED, Plaintiff/Counterdefendant-Appellant, v. MEREDITH CORPORATION,  Defendant/Counterplaintiff-Appellee.

http://www.pddoc.com/copyright/publications_v_meredith.htm

Anyway, try Chef John's pork confit method sometime, it works great.....requires a lot less fat to get the job done.

http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2007/04/pork-confit-part-1-fine-brine-for-swine.html

http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2007/04/pork-confit-part-2-quintessential.html

:sausage:


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## sprky

I am with all the others on this. 

*FIRST AND FOREMOST THIS IS BY NO MEANS A CONVERSION*. I use to use TQ in my brine for turkeys. I used 3/4 of a cup of TQ  in the brine along with 5/8 cup salt in 1.5 gallons of brine.  I have switched brine's and now use DQ#1 1.5OZ in 1.5 gallons of brine along with 5/8 cup salt. This switch was due to family members needing reduced sodium intake. The brine I use to use was much higher in sodium, very close to a full strength brine, it would float an egg. *To my knowledge there is no direct conversion from Cure#1 to TQ and vice versa*. The switching of my brine's was not done haphazardly it was done threw consulting with people that know curing extremely well, and developing a formula that was safe, with the reduced sodium. I *could not* just decrease the amount of TQ and have a safe brine, yes I could have just removed the salt but I would also have had more sodium.  Brining and making sausage are totally different curing applications I just used this to kinda show how you can't just switch between the two cures. 

It is also very risky to take a recipe that calls for cure #1 and add TQ or vice versa. I recommend you hold off making this till you have the proper cure. Many butcher shops have cure#1 and will sell you a small amount. All you have to do is ask around. Many times the initial cost is higher but when you figure in shipping its actually cheaper.


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## sausageboy

sprky said:


> It is also very risky to take a recipe that calls for cure #1 and add TQ or vice versa.



There's no risk *as long as you follow the rules*. Recipes are converted all the time.




Phogi said:


> Well, I decided to just use 1 tbs TenderQuick per pound.



I hope you left out the other salt in the recipe. :biggrin:


:sausage:


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## alblancher

SausageBoy

Would you elaborate on the rules for the conversion.   I have not found a way to account for the nitrate in TQ when moving from Cure1 to TQ in a recipe.  My problem is that nitrate converts to nitrite at different rates depending on biological activity and temperate so I can't figure out how to use TQ for short term curing procedures and not have residual Nitrates.  The salt conversion is pretty straight forward but I am hung up on the nitrate.

I always cite the chef when copying a recipe more out of respect for the chef as anything else.  I am a big fan of John Folse's books and over time will post many different recipes from his collection.  I wonder how far I can go before I run into copyright laws if posting multiple recipes from the same book or books.


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## hoity toit

I agree totally with what you say.

DG


GrayStratCat said:


> Hey Phogi, as for the use of TQ in place of cure #1 for your confit, I would have to defer to someone else on the forum as to it being a suitable substitution since I've never cured confit....
> 
> As for the amount and use of TQ in gerenal, there should be directions on that package of Tender Quick as to the amount to use per pound of meat or gallon of brine.  It would be safer just to follow the manufacture's directions as to the amount of TQ to use instead of trying to do a conversion.  In addition to salt, TQ has both Sodium Nitrite and Sodium Nitrate in it whereas pink salt or cure #1 is salt and 6.25% Sodium Nitrite only.
> 
> Hopefully someone can address the feasibility of the substitution question for you regarding confit.
> 
> -Salt
> 
> Edited to add:  I did a little more research on cured confit since this post got my curiosity going... and all the recipes I found list Cure 1 with no mention of TQ.  With that said, I'm still not sure if TQ would be a good substitution...but... after reading some of the recipes for cured confit... I think I'm going to have to give it a try.  Sounds very good!


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## sausageboy

alblancher said:


> SausageBoy
> 
> 
> 
> Would you elaborate on the rules for the conversion.   I have not found a way to account for the nitrate in TQ when moving from Cure1 to TQ in a recipe.  My problem is that nitrate converts to nitrite at different rates depending on biological activity and temperate so I can't figure out how to use TQ for short term curing procedures and not have residual Nitrates.  The salt conversion is pretty straight forward but I am hung up on the nitrate.
> 
> 
> 
> I always cite the chef when copying a recipe more out of respect for the chef as anything else.  I am a big fan of John Folse's books and over time will post many different recipes from his collection.  I wonder how far I can go before I run into copyright laws if posting multiple recipes from the same book or books.



I suggest that those who have an irrational fear of nitrate over nitrite not use TenderQuick. :biggrin:

*"Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a teaspoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all."*

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates

:sausage:


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## DanMcG

SausageBoy said:


> I suggest that those who have an irrational fear of nitrate over nitrite not use TQ


I don't, but mainly because of the salt content. I'm not that knowledgeable about Nitrate since I don't do any dry cure and really haven't researched it much. but this does make we wonder what happens to the Nitrate when heated at low temps. Is it converted to nitrite then eventually into nitrosly-heomchrome <sp> (pink meat color) as the nitrite did? I don't think I've ever read anything about this


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## big casino

SausageBoy said:


> I suggest that those who have an irrational fear of nitrate over nitrite not use TenderQuick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a teaspoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all."*
> http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates


I think this comes from the FDA regulating the use of Nitrates in products like bacon, when fried at high temps it can produce nitrosamines which can cause cancer, altho it is not a problem with sausages and hams, or other cured meats, but I think that leaves some feeling un-easy about it


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## daveomak

*This statement made by SausageBoy is taken out of context and is very misleading*

*"Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a teaspoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all."*

I have copied part of the section, for ease of our members to examine for themselves. The complete explanation.... http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates

I encourage all members to educate themselves on the accepted practices from "those who know" the curing of meats....  It is a long involved process that could be dangerous..

Also, we have at least 2 resident "experts" on the forum where questions on curing should be directed....  Pops and Chef JJ....  they are trusted by the owner of this forum to give accurate advice...   
[h3]What’s Better, Nitrate or Nitrite?[/h3]
Both Nitrates and nitrites are permitted to be used in curing meat and poultry with the exception of bacon, where Nitrate use is prohibited. Sodium nitrite is commonly used in the USA (Cure #1) and everywhere else in the world. To add to the confusion our commonly available cures contain both nitrite and Nitrate.

Many commercial meat plants prepare their own cures where both nitrite and Nitrate are used. All original European sausage recipes include Nitrate and now have to be converted to nitrite. So what is the big difference? Almost no difference at all. Whether we use Nitrate or nitrite, the final result is basically the same. The difference between Nitrate and nitrite is as big as the difference between wheat flour and the bread that was baked from it. The Nitrate is the Mother that gives birth to the Baby (nitrite). Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a tea-spoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all. Replacing Nitrate with nitrite eliminates questions like: Do I have enough nitrite to cure the meat? In other words, it is more predictable and it is easier to control the dosage. Another good reason for using nitrite is that it is effective at low temperatures 36-40° F, (2-4° C), where Nitrate likes temperatures a bit higher 46-50° F, (8-10° C). By curing meats at lower temperatures we slow down the growth of bacteria and we extend the shelf life of a product.

When Nitrates were used alone, salt penetration was usually ahead of color development. As a result large pieces of meat were too salty when fully colored and had to be soaked in water. This problem has been eliminated when using nitrite. Nitrite works much faster and the color is fixed well before salt can fully penetrate the meat. Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:

Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).
Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster.


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## sausageboy

DaveOmak said:


> *This statement made by SausageBoy is taken out of context and is very misleading*
> 
> 
> *"Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a teaspoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all."*
> 
> 
> 
> I have copied part of the section, for ease of our members to examine for themselves. The complete explanation.... http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates
> 
> 
> I encourage all members to educate themselves on the accepted practices from "those who know" the curing of meats....  It is a long involved process that could be dangerous..
> 
> 
> 
> Also, we have at least 2 resident "experts" on the forum where questions on curing should be directed....  Pops and Chef JJ....  they are trusted by the owner of this forum to give accurate advice...
> 
> 
> [h3]	What’s Better, Nitrate or Nitrite?[/h3]
> 
> Both Nitrates and nitrites are permitted to be used in curing meat and poultry with the exception of bacon, where Nitrate use is prohibited. Sodium nitrite is commonly used in the USA (Cure #1) and everywhere else in the world. To add to the confusion our commonly available cures contain both nitrite and Nitrate.
> 
> 
> Many commercial meat plants prepare their own cures where both nitrite and Nitrate are used. All original European sausage recipes include Nitrate and now have to be converted to nitrite. So what is the big difference? Almost no difference at all. Whether we use Nitrate or nitrite, the final result is basically the same. The difference between Nitrate and nitrite is as big as the difference between wheat flour and the bread that was baked from it. The Nitrate is the Mother that gives birth to the Baby (nitrite). Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a tea-spoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all. Replacing Nitrate with nitrite eliminates questions like: Do I have enough nitrite to cure the meat? In other words, it is more predictable and it is easier to control the dosage. Another good reason for using nitrite is that it is effective at low temperatures 36-40° F, (2-4° C), where Nitrate likes temperatures a bit higher 46-50° F, (8-10° C). By curing meats at lower temperatures we slow down the growth of bacteria and we extend the shelf life of a product.
> 
> 
> When Nitrates were used alone, salt penetration was usually ahead of color development. As a result large pieces of meat were too salty when fully colored and had to be soaked in water. This problem has been eliminated when using nitrite. Nitrite works much faster and the color is fixed well before salt can fully penetrate the meat. Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:
> 
> 
> Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).
> Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster.



First of all, it's not my statement.

Secondly, whether the quote was "taken out of context" or not doesn't change the fact that nitrite is potentially more dangerous than nitrate.

What exactly is "very misleading"?

I hope this isn't going to start some crazy argument.

TenderQuick contains both nitrite and nitrate and has been used for decades to cure all types of meats.

There are only two curing "experts" here?

How exactly does a person qualify as an "expert"?


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## daveomak

SausageBoy said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This statement made by SausageBoy is taken out of context and is very misleading*
> 
> *"Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a teaspoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all."*
> 
> I have copied part of the section, for ease of our members to examine for themselves. The complete explanation.... http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates
> 
> I encourage all members to educate themselves on the accepted practices from "those who know" the curing of meats....  It is a long involved process that could be dangerous..
> 
> Also, we have at least 2 resident "experts" on the forum where questions on curing should be directed....  Pops and Chef JJ....  they are trusted by the owner of this forum to give accurate advice...
> [h3]What’s Better, Nitrate or Nitrite?[/h3]
> Both Nitrates and nitrites are permitted to be used in curing meat and poultry with the exception of bacon, where Nitrate use is prohibited. Sodium nitrite is commonly used in the USA (Cure #1) and everywhere else in the world. To add to the confusion our commonly available cures contain both nitrite and Nitrate.
> 
> Many commercial meat plants prepare their own cures where both nitrite and Nitrate are used. All original European sausage recipes include Nitrate and now have to be converted to nitrite. So what is the big difference? Almost no difference at all. Whether we use Nitrate or nitrite, the final result is basically the same. The difference between Nitrate and nitrite is as big as the difference between wheat flour and the bread that was baked from it. The Nitrate is the Mother that gives birth to the Baby (nitrite). Pure sodium nitrite is an even more powerful poison than Nitrate as you need only about ⅓ of a tea-spoon to put your life in danger, where in a case of Nitrate you may need 1 tea-spoon or more. So all these explanations that nitrite is safer for you make absolutely no sense at all. Replacing Nitrate with nitrite eliminates questions like: Do I have enough nitrite to cure the meat? In other words, it is more predictable and it is easier to control the dosage. Another good reason for using nitrite is that it is effective at low temperatures 36-40° F, (2-4° C), where Nitrate likes temperatures a bit higher 46-50° F, (8-10° C). By curing meats at lower temperatures we slow down the growth of bacteria and we extend the shelf life of a product.
> 
> When Nitrates were used alone, salt penetration was usually ahead of color development. As a result large pieces of meat were too salty when fully colored and had to be soaked in water. This problem has been eliminated when using nitrite. Nitrite works much faster and the color is fixed well before salt can fully penetrate the meat. Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:
> 
> Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).
> Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, it's not my statement.*You quoted it, therefore you stated it*
> 
> Secondly, whether the quote was "taken out of context" or not doesn't change the fact that nitrite is potentially more dangerous than nitrate.
> 
> What exactly is "very misleading"?  *Quoting out of context is misleading.. The remainder of the discussion describes how nitrites are safer to use than nitrates.*
> 
> I hope this isn't going to start some crazy argument.
> 
> Tender Quick contains both nitrite and nitrate and has been used for decades to cure all types of meats.
> 
> *Yes, and it has a specific place to be used when during meats.  That place has been given some leniency, granted, but it was intended to cure meats at higher than refrigerated temps..*
> 
> _*Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:*_
> 
> _*Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).*_
> _*Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster*_
> There are only two curing "experts" here?* Taking my statement out of context is not advisable..My statement reads : Also, we have at least 2 resident "experts" on the forum where questions on curing should be directed....  Pops and Chef JJ....  they are trusted by the owner of this forum to give accurate advice...    *
> 
> How exactly does a person qualify as an "expert"?
> * A person qualifies as an "expert", on this forum, after a long evaluation by his/her peers and staff, to be representing facts, based on trusted authorities, and has the best interest of Forum visitors, members and management at all times.  Education plays a very big part in becoming an "expert". Whether it be schooling in the culinary arts or years of working hand in hand with the FDA or similar regulatory agencies. The goals of the staff at Smoking Meat Forums, whether they be classified as experts or not, is to provide a friendly place and safe place for folks to come and learn and share their knowledge.. Last but not least, trust is a major factor among members and staff. Trust is something that one earns at this forum..  That is what makes this place special.. Visitors, to this forum, can recognize a "special" atmosphere and relationship among everyone sharing ideas and recipes... We try to keep that relationship alive by maintaining a set of values that management expects... *
> 
> *Best regards... Dave*
Click to expand...


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## tigerregis

The reply makes sense to me. One can choose to pooh-pooh so-called expertise at his peril. Yes, there usually is a new way to do things and  I wouldn't stand in the way of innovation or invention, however there is a feeling of confidence when one follows grandma's cooking regime.(or any other arbiter of good practice).


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## sausageboy

It's unfortunate that you seem to insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Please don't  treat me like a little kid.

_First of all, it's not my statement. *You quoted it, therefore you stated it.*_

Yes, I quoted it, but I did not state it, there's a BIG difference.

_"What exactly is "very misleading"?  *Quoting out of context is misleading.. The remainder of the discussion describes how nitrites are safer to use than nitrates*."_

I quoted to make a single point, that being that pure nitrite is more dangerous than pure nitrate. Nothing more, nothing less.

_"Tender Quick contains both nitrite and nitrate and has been used for decades to cure all types of meats.
*Yes, and it has a specific place to be used when during meats.  That place has been given some leniency, granted, but it was intended to cure meats at higher than refrigerated temps..
Estimating the required amount of Nitrate is harder as it is dependent on:
Temperature (with higher temperature more nitrite is released from Nitrate).
Amount of bacteria present in meat that is needed for Nitrate to produce nitrite and here we do not have any control. The more bacteria present, the more nitrite released. Adding sugar may be beneficial as it provides food for bacteria to grow faster.*"_

Specific place? Intended for higher temperatures? TenderQuick contains the proper amounts of nitrate and nitrite for both short term refrigerated curing and extended curing at warmer temperatures (both ground meat and whole cuts, use as directed).


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## pops6927

A chart to clear up several misconceptions:

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## DanMcG

*  *Thanks for the link Pops,  that should calm it down a bit in here.

*MORTON TENDER QUICK*

and

*MORTON SUGAR CURE*

NOTE: Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, or should either be used as a seasoning. These two premixes are essentially the same, and can be used interchangeably. *Both are considered fast cures*. The difference between the two is that the Sugar Cure has added dextrose and a packet of spice mix. They both contain a combination of high grade salt, sugar, plus both sodium nitrate (.5%) and sodium nitrite (.5%).

Like cure #1, these premix cures have been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, fish and sausage that require short curing times, and will be fully cooked. They are NOT interchangeable with cure #1; they measure differently. Unlike cure #1, you don't use any additional salt when making sausage.

*NOTE:* Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, and the Sugar cures are not seasonings. These are cures that only should be used in recipes calling for curing meat fish, and poultry. *They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable* with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure.


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## sausageboy

As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.

From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.

*"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."*

and

*"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for." *


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## pops6927

And, that is exactly the conundrum; if using a premix that requires you to add Cure #1, if you substitute TQ[emoji]174[/emoji], you cannot remove the excess salt/sugars from the premix without altering the ratio of mix to meat; therefore, TQ[emoji]174[/emoji] cannot be substituted directly or in any form with premixed seasonings, as shown above.  If you mix your own, and know how TQ[emoji]174[/emoji] is formulated, and know how much nitrite and nitrate is in the mix, and can separate out those quantities with confidence and stay within maximums and know how much salt and how much sugar to extrapolate from your home made mix, and have reliable sources on the TQ[emoji]174[/emoji] formulation, then yes, you can subtitute it.  Or, just buy some cure #1: http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=237_12&products_id=56   it's only $3.50/bag and it lasts a long time and not really worth any more discussion.

 And, BTW, all Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] products are registered trade names, so please add the proper [emoji]174[/emoji] when referring to them (easy to do: hold down the ALT key and 10-key   0174 ).

Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep


SausageBoy said:


> As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.
> From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.
> *"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."*
> and
> *"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for." *


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## sausageboy

Pops6927 said:


> And, that is exactly the conundrum; if using a premix that requires you to add Cure #1, if you substitute TQ, you cannot remove the excess salt/sugars from the premix without altering the ratio of mix to meat; therefore, TQ cannot be substituted directly or in any form with premixed seasoings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SausageBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe either way as long as the rules are followed.
> From the link that Pop's posted, concerning Morton TenderQuick and SugarCure.
> *"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."*
> and
> *"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for." *
Click to expand...


You're moving the goal post, no one was talking about pre-mixed seasonings.

Anyway...there is no conundrum if you follow the rules.
Obviously, it wouldn't work with salted pre-mixed seasonings because it would violate one of the rules. That being *"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for."*


----------



## sausageboy

"And, BTW, all Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] products are registered trade names, so please add the proper [emoji]174[/emoji] when referring to them (easy to do: hold down the ALT key and 10-key   0174 )."

Morton doesn't require anyone to use the  [emoji]174[/emoji] when mentioning their products. Mentioning a product isn't 'use' of the trademark.

*"Trademark Information
All names, logos, trademarks or service marks contained in this Site are registered trademarks owned or licensed by Morton Salt and may not be used without Morton Salt's prior written approval. The registered trademarks of Morton Salt belong exclusively to Morton Salt and are protected by U. S. and international trademark laws and treaties."*


How about I just delete all my posts and let the "experts" take over?


----------



## alblancher

The vast majority of our members have never used cures and are not familiar with cure procedures.  The Moderator and Administrator teams are responsible with keeping the information on the forum as safe and understandable as possible for all visitors.

I do not recommend substituting cures.  Use the cure in the amounts listed in the recipe you are using.   There is no direct substitution of TQ for Cure 1 because TQ has nitrates and Cure 1 does not.

We encourage discussions about recipes that use TQ and we encourage discussions about recipes that use Cure 1.  There are so many great recipes out there we can normally find one that fits what you are trying to do.

We have had these types of discussions on the forum before and they always seem to end with someone getting angry and new members mostly just getting confused.


----------



## sausageboy

Pops6927 wrote.....

*"Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep"*

I just read the thread.
I probably shouldn't be questioning one of the resident "experts" here, but there's an error in your post.

*"3lbs. of water would be 3x16 or 36 oz., which is 1020.58 grams x .1325, or 135.22 g. - measure 133 grams."*

3 lbs. of water is 48 ounces (not 36) or 1360.77711 grams X .1325= 180.302967 grams.


----------



## alblancher

Put it away SausageBoy.   The members you are arguing with have close to 3000 posts each and we all make mistakes in math and grammer.  They are respect for their experience, education and contributions to the forum


----------



## sausageboy

It sucks to be such a worthless low life here with only 200 posts.
Makes it so easy for others to belittle you.
I've been a butcher for 24 years, I'm far from a beginner.
I'm finished with this thread.


----------



## pops6927

Thank you very much for pointing out my mistake!  Now corrected!
 


SausageBoy said:


> Pops6927 wrote.....
> *"Also, for all, this is a post I made several years ago on how to reproportion seasonings to the correct meat weight:
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/69518/sausage-prep"*
> I just read the thread.
> I probably shouldn't be questioning one of the resident "experts" here, but there's an error in your post.
> *"3lbs. of water would be 3x16 or 36 oz., which is 1020.58 grams x .1325, or 135.22 g. - measure 133 grams."*
> 3 lbs. of water is 48 ounces (not 36) or 1360.77711 grams X .1325= 180.302967 grams.


----------



## phogi

OK, wow, I didn't realize this was such a contentious issue.

Sausage Boy, I didn't add any salt, THANK GOD. It was still VERY salty, but not too salty. I think this is the most delicious thing I have ever eaten, outside of the pork chops I made the other day. I rendered the fat from back fat, and let it cook at 200 degress. End result was amazing.

I looked at chef john's confit videos, and I don't quite get it, seems more like a slow roasted ham.


----------



## solaryellow

Phogi said:


> OK, wow, I didn't realize this was such a contentious issue.
> 
> Sausage Boy, I didn't add any salt, THANK GOD. It was still VERY salty, but not too salty. I think this is the most delicious thing I have ever eaten, outside of the pork chops I made the other day. I rendered the fat from back fat, and let it cook at 200 degress. End result was amazing.
> 
> I looked at chef john's confit videos, and I don't quite get it, seems more like a slow roasted ham.




It does provoke a lot of emotions but a lot of good theory and science always comes out of these discussions. Ignore the personalities and pay attention to the facts. I always learn something new in these conversations even though they seem a tad adversarial.


----------



## chef jimmyj

*"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do not add the salt that the recipe calls for." 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	



*

In this recipe you would use 1Cup of Table Salt(10 oz.) or 16Tbs of Salt... Mortons TQ is a similar consistency, by this premise, you could leave out the Salt and Cure #1 and just add TQ...

If you go one for one by Salt, to keep the salinity in recipe as intended, 16Tbs of TQ is an insufficient amount of TQ/Nitrite for 25Lbs of Belly!...Not Good!

If you go by the recommended amount of 1Tbs TQ per Pound of belly, as suggested by Cowgirl (resident expert) and other Smoking websites, you should use 25Tbs of TQ, proper amount of Nitrite... But you would have somewhere around 5 1/2 more ounces of Salt and other stuff not intended in the recipe...WAY too much for this specific recipe!...

Bottom Line: Recipes are designed for Specific Amounts of Specific Ingredients!...If you are using a recipe that was written by someone who knows what they are doing...Follow it as written for Critical ingredients like Cure...There is no way to easily alternate between Cure #1 and TQ...JJ


----------



## sausageboy

Chef JimmyJ wrote....

"If you go by the recommended amount of 1Tbs TQ per Pound of belly, as suggested by Cowgirl (resident expert) and other Smoking websites, you should use 25Tbs of TQ, proper amount of Nitrite... But you would have somewhere around 5 1/2 more ounces of Salt and other stuff not intended in the recipe...WAY too much for this specific recipe!..."






I said I was done with this thread , but I can't just let this go.

What you have posted (highlighted above) is blatantly incorrect.

Tender Quick is 79% salt. 
1 level tablespoon of Tender Quick weighs 1/2 an ounce.
25 level tablespoons of Tender Quick for 25 lbs. of bacon would be 12.5 ounces of Tender Quick.
12.5 ounces X .79= 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially *LESS* salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.

Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.


----------



## DanMcG

SausageBoy said:


> .
> *9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon,* which is substantially *LESS* salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.
> Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.


For whats it's worth
 

9.875oz=276gm per 25 pounds or 11gm per pound

I use 8.5 per pound  for my favorite bacon.


----------



## chef jimmyj

Ok, TQ is Lighter than salt, I will own up to that mistake, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have the proprietary blend of ingredients in TQ and know how much salt they use...I can't find it and this discussion has come up many times before and no one has ever had this info...But...Regardless recipes are DESIGNED and WRITTEN to use specific amount of ingredients...Making a general statement like, just substitute TQ and leave out the Salt, does not only change the recipe but can be down right Dangerous! Check the Recipe example I use...

The recipe I posted as example uses 10oz of Salt and 2oz Cure #1= 340g for 25 lb Bacon

According to charts 1T of Cure #1 = .6 oz = 17g same as 1T table salt. http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

For sake of argument I will convert to Tablespoons because TQ recommendations are 1T per Lb of Belly.

To maintain the amount of salinity *intended in the recipe *340/17g= 20T Salt

If you skipped the salt and cure and added TQ, you would need 25T of TQ...for 25lb Belly.

Since 1T of TQ is lighter than Table Salt and contains Sugar (thanks for bringing this to my attention), 12.6g vs 17g...There would not be enough Salt in the recipe...So not only would a simple substitution change the Flavor...

The author specifically states and went to the trouble of Capitalizing for emphasis..." *DO NOT SOAK* "...Anyone reading this can see he finds it imperitve that a Specific amount of Salt and Cure be there for a reason! *I would venture a guess RYTEK knows what he is taking about, it is his recipe...*  The whole point of Recipes is to produce Consistent and Repeatable product, if you wish to deviate that is your business...But you should not get offended when the people responsible for the safety of 30,000 members tells you, What you are recommending may not be safe!...You would have to assume everyone reading your statements knows what you mean when you say, "  if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted. ", but you don't post those instructions and a random statement like just use TQ and leave out the salt don't cover it...JJ


----------



## DanMcG

If nothing else I hope this banter might enlighten someone, and if so, that's a good thing.

No better way to learn then to exchange thoughts and ideas.


----------



## sausageboy

Chef JimmyJ wrote.....

*"Making a general statement like, just substitute TQ and leave
out the Salt, does not only change the recipe but can be down right
Dangerous!"*


Who is saying this? It certainly wasn't me. Quite the opposite.

SausageBoy wrote....
_*"There's no risk as long as you follow the rules. Recipes
are converted all the time."*_

SausageBoy wrote....
_*As I said above, there's nothing wrong with adapting a recipe
either way as long as the rules are followed.*_

SausageBoy quoted....
*"They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because
they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not
directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton
Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure."*
and
*"If replacing Morton Tender Quick for cure #1 in a recipe, do
not add the salt that the recipe calls for."*

SausageBoy wrote....
*"...there is no conundrum if you follow the rules."*

SausageBoy wrote....
*"Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules,
many recipes can easily and safely be converted."*

SausageBoy wrote.....
*....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.*


Chef JimmyJ wrote......

_*"Anyone reading this can see he finds it imperitve that a
Specific amount of Salt and Cure be there for a reason!"*_

Specific amount?

Sorry, but I can't agree!

Anyone reading the recipe can see that he also says, and I'll
paraphrase, "If the bellies are not covered in their own natural
brine, make a pickle brine with 1-1/4 lbs. of the above formula to one
gallon of water."

So, obviously, the amount of salt and cure is NOT specific If more may be required.

Chef JimmyJ wrote......
*"I would venture a guess RYTEK knows what he is taking about, it is his recipe..."*

*If you're not comfortable converting recipes, BY ALL MEANS, do not do it!*

But, please, don't say that it can't be done safely *when
directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.* A little common sense helps too!


----------



## chef jimmyj

You still provide no proof regarding the amount of Salt in TenderQuick, I'm not trying to be a Jerk but something this critical needs support...And...You keep repeating, " *....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.*  

When are you going to Post these Rules and Safety Precautions...The random reader has to know before they attempt a move like substituting Cures which you seem to think is no big deal ...JJ


----------



## sausageboy

Chef JimmyJ said:


> You still provide no proof regarding the amount of Salt in TenderQuick, I'm not trying to be a Jerk but something this critical needs support...And...You keep repeating, " *....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.*
> 
> 
> 
> When are you going to Post these Rules and Safety Precautions...The random reader has to know before they attempt a move like substituting Cures which you seem to think is no big deal ...JJ



C'mon, this is getting out of hand.

I don't need to prove how much salt is in Tender Quick for it to be used safely. (When the directions and rules are followed.)

I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense!

I seem to think that substituting cures is no big deal?

:huh:

Why would you say that I think it's not a big deal when I've said time and time again that rules and directions must be followed????

For the life of me, I don't see why "please follow directions/rules" is such a difficult concept to grasp!!!

I've done nothing but advocate following the rules/directions, there should be no argument!


----------



## sausageboy

DanMcG said:


> SausageBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> *9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon,* which is substantially *LESS* salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.
> Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.
> 
> 
> 
> For whats it's worth
> 
> 
> 
> 9.875oz=276gm per 25 pounds or 11gm per pound
> 
> 
> I use 8.5 per pound  for my favorite bacon.
Click to expand...


Ol' Rytek is usin' 13.46 grams of salt per pound, or more, if needed!

Different strokes for different folks!

:sausage:


----------



## chef jimmyj

Once again what are these DIRECTIONS and RULES you keep talking about!?! Look I learned a long time ago from members like AlBlancher and fpnmf...If you can't prove it don't say it!...I made the reference that TQ and Table salt weighed about the same,I miss read the chart, I was called on it by you and said so...Now you said...

Tender Quick is 79% salt.
1 level tablespoon of Tender Quick weighs 1/2 an ounce.
25 level tablespoons of Tender Quick for 25 lbs. of bacon would be 12.5 ounces of Tender Quick.
12.5 ounces X .79= 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially *LESS* salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.

Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.

These are your words, if they are a fact, back it up...

You are also saying..." I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense! "

Really I would to like see where it says you can substitute TQ for Cure #1 and gives information about Salt and Sugar conversions as well... You can't substitute if you don't know these amounts...JJ


----------



## chef jimmyj

Here you go...Will you please point out where they give the Conversion...Morton says follow the Recipe...Does that mean a recipe with TQ or any recipe?...JJ


----------



## sprky

OK I think I might be able to  help here. 

The OP is asking for a conversion between TQ and cure#1

I stand by my original post. That to my knowledge there is no direct conversion between the two. (may not be my exact words but darn close)

Sausageboy you state you can convert between TQ and cure#1 as long as the directions/rules are followed. The directions/rules are right on the bag of TQ. I went and dug out my bag of TQ from the back of the cupboard. I looked the bag over carefully. *NO where* on the bag did I find where it said you could convert between the two cures. It only stated how to use TQ as a cure. I am posting the following 5 pics of the bag. 

                                          Front of Bag                                                                                                                      Back of Bag and Directions






	

		
			
		

		
	
                  
	

		
			
		

		
	







                          Side with Nutrition Facts and Ingredients I couldn't get a clear pic of both in 1 pic so I took 2






	

		
			
		

		
	
           
	

		
			
		

		
	







                                     Other side of bag with curing guide info







Now with all that said following the directions on the bag, NO where did it mention sausage or ground meats which the OP is making and using. This peaked my curiosity so I went to Morton's web site to find the answer. I clicked the drop down menu and selected method, I then checked the box for curing. This brought up 6 recipes 3 sausage and 3 whole meats. I reviewed all 3 sausages and the amount of TQ per pound in all 3 was 1 1/2 tsp not 1 TBSP. by using the 1 TBSP you are adding 2x as much cure. Early on in this thread the OP decided to use 1 TBSP of TQ in his sausage, and you stated I hope you left out the other salt in the recipe. when in fact you should have told him that was too much he needed 1 1/2 tsp. Had I know all this when the OP said that I would have informed him, that was too much. The 1 TBSP is for whole meats not ground. Here is a link to the Morton's site with the recipes.Morton Salt | Recipes


----------



## scrappynadds

Just want to say I love the point, counter point........Very passionate and informing discussion, I think SMF needed it....thanx


----------



## sausageboy

Hey sprky,

You need to read this thread closer.
Nowhere did i say that TQ and Cure#1 are directly interchangeable!!!!!! Nowhere!!!
Nowhere did i say to use 1 tablespoon of TQ per pound of ground meat!!!! Nowhere!!! TQ is usually used at 1/2 a tablespoon per pound of ground meat!
If your not comfortable with the information from the Morton TQ bag, which does not mention ground meats, only use the directions for whole cuts that are on the bag, or further educate yourself, otherwise, please don't be converting!!!! It's common sense!!!

See the following thread.....

Getting to know Morton Tender Quick......
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/117802/getting-to-know-morton-tender-quick

Folks, if you have a problem grasping the concept of a multi-purpose cure, please follow the recipe EXACTLY as directed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sprky

SausageBoy said:


> Hey sprky,
> You need to read this thread closer.   I have reread this post several times as well as had others read it.
> Nowhere did i say that TQ and Cure#1 are directly interchangeable!!!!!! Nowhere!!!   Maybe not in those exact words but you have darn sure been implying it threw-out this thread. I am not the only one that sees it this way.
> Nowhere did i say to use 1 tablespoon of TQ per pound of ground meat!!!! Nowhere!!! TQ is usually used at 1/2 a tablespoon per pound of ground meat!  True not in those words. But when the OP said he was going to use 1 TBSP you replied "I hope you left out the salt in the recipe", with no mention of the 1 1/2 tsp amount. Therefor you implied to the OP he was correct in his amount.
> If your not comfortable with the information from the Morton TQ bag, which does not mention ground meats, only use the directions for whole cuts that are on the bag, or further educate yourself, otherwise, please don't be converting!!!! It's common sense!!!    I am totally comfortable with TQ and it's uses. Do I know all there is to know about curing NO, there is always room to educate yourself, and I do. I don't convert I use the cure that is called for in the recipe in the amounts called for, whether it be TQ or cure #1. That is the best common sense.


----------



## DanMcG

Time out!

Alright I had to look at the original post again, Phogi was making confit, chunks of pork swimming in pork fat warmed at a very low temp in the oven for a long time, then stored in the frig for months. To me this is the recipe that I might want TQ used. With the low temp (probably below 140°)and long storage time I think the nitrate that it offers would be a plus.

 The original question was how much TQ would equal ½ tsp of pink salt.

I think the whole point of this discussion is that *IF* you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to *safely* cure your product.

Let's toss in a few numbers,

½ tsp of pink salt equals 0.1875 gms of nitrite. which mixed with a pound of meat give you 415ppm.

1Tbl of TQ equals .14 gms of nitrite . This gives you 308ppm in the same pound of meat.

Both of the above amounts are safe and well below the 625ppm maximum allowed by the USDA, and that's as close as you'll get to equal using spoon measurements. If you want it exactly the same, use scales to measure it out

TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, *BUT* it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate

#1 is salt and nitrite

You can use a ½ Tbl of TQ safely in sausage but it alone will probably have enough salt and you'll need to adjust the salt that might be in the recipe to you taste. And if you're worried about using to much TQ, don't. To much TQ will be so salty you won't be able to eat it.

In the end, if ya know what you're doing you can replace one for the other, but on the board here I think it's not a good idea to suggest it. I find a lot of people don't really research anything but just copy what they read and go for it...I was one of them once myself. '

I hope this is some help to others, and remember curing meats is as much of a science as it is a hobby.


----------



## alblancher

Dan

With all due respect I don't understand how you can measure nitrite in each cure and use that as the amount of available nitrite when TQ has Nitrate and we do not know how the conversion rate of nitrates to nitrite. Salt is personal taste, the amount of nitrite is important.        Why not substitute Cure 2 if we are going to believe the nitrates are not important?

I feel like a man with a knife going to a gun fight posting to this thread but I really want to understand how we can ignore the nitrates in TQ?

As a matter of fact most confit recipes I am familiar with uses the duck fat seal to preserve the meat, no cure required.


----------



## chef jimmyj

Dan, I trust you and Nepas...Thanks for your post you very nicely said Both SausageBoy and I are right in our own way...JJ

"I think the whole point of this discussion is that *IF* you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to *safely* cure your product."...Sausage Boys Point...

"TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, *BUT* it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate."...Chef JimmyJs Point...


----------



## solaryellow

DanMcG said:


> Time out!
> 
> 
> 
> Alright I had to look at the original post again, Phogi was making confit, chunks of pork swimming in pork fat warmed at a very low temp in the oven for a long time, then stored in the frig for months. To me this is the recipe that I might want TQ used. With the low temp (probably below 140°)and long storage time I think the nitrate that it offers would be a plus.
> 
> 
> 
> The original question was how much TQ would equal ½ tsp of pink salt.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the whole point of this discussion is that *IF* you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to *safely* cure your product.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's toss in a few numbers,
> 
> 
> ½ tsp of pink salt equals 0.1875 gms of nitrite. which mixed with a pound of meat give you 415ppm.
> 
> 
> 1Tbl of TQ equals .14 gms of nitrite . This gives you 308ppm in the same pound of meat.
> 
> 
> Both of the above amounts are safe and well below the 625ppm maximum allowed by the USDA, and that's as close as you'll get to equal using spoon measurements. If you want it exactly the same, use scales to measure it out
> 
> 
> 
> TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, *BUT* it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.
> 
> 
> TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate
> 
> 
> #1 is salt and nitrite
> 
> 
> 
> You can use a ½ Tbl of TQ safely in sausage but it alone will probably have enough salt and you'll need to adjust the salt that might be in the recipe to you taste. And if you're worried about using to much TQ, don't. To much TQ will be so salty you won't be able to eat it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end, if ya know what you're doing you can replace one for the other, but on the board here I think it's not a good idea to suggest it. I find a lot of people don't really research anything but just copy what they read and go for it...I was one of them once myself. '
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this is some help to others, and remember curing meats is as much of a science as it is a hobby.



Great post Dan. Perhaps one of the best I have seen contrasting TQ and cure #1.


----------



## DanMcG

alblancher said:


> Dan
> 
> With all due respect I don't understand how you can measure nitrite in each cure and use that as the amount of available nitrite when TQ has Nitrate and we do not know how the conversion rate of nitrates to nitrite.
> 
> I'll be the first to tell ya, I don't really know what happens to the nitrate in the TQ. But we're talking about a quick cure and I really don't think the nitrates even start to come into play. So unless we're curing the product for over 40 days or so I think the nitrates are not an issue. therefor I look at the ingoing amount of nitrite as the prime factor.
> 
> Now if someone could tell me what happens to the nitrate during the heating process, I might change my view. But the amount of nitrate in TQ that you'd use in a pound of  meat is less then you'd find in a pound of potato's so for now I'm comfortable with it being there.
> 
> Salt is personal taste, the amount of nitrite is important.        Why not substitute Cure 2 if we are going to believe the nitrates are not important?
> 
> Again I don't think it falls into play in a short term cure but only after the available nitrites have run out and the NO3 starts to convert to NO2
> 
> Since this thread started I've been looking for info on what happens to the residual nitrate in a cure, but have yet to find any info.
> 
> I feel like a man with a knife going to a gun fight posting to this thread but I really want to understand how we can ignore the nitrates in TQ?
> 
> LOL I'm the guy right behind ya.
> 
> Valid question Al, that I really can't answer. Cure #2 has half the nitrate as TQ so why dont we use it, or better yet how is TQ allowed to be sold if it's unsafe?
> 
> As a matter of fact most confit recipes I am familiar with uses the duck fat seal to preserve the meat, no cure required.




I live for good discussions about things like this, it makes all of us better curers. I'm by far not an expert and I learn something everyday, so if anyone can add to this or find fault in what I posted please do, these are my opinions base on what I know, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much.


----------



## alblancher

Does someone actually have access to the amount of nitrate in TQ?  If the amount of nitrate is so small as to be insignificant then* it is *just Cure 1 with additional salt?  This entire conversation is about how much salt to add or subtract from a recipe?

Why is TQ allowed to be on the market?  Great question, but handguns, alcohol and cigs are still on the market and no one questions their safety?  Maybe it's just popular, made by a large company, with a lot of fans and the health risks of residual nitrates in low temperature recipes still unproven to be a major if not minor health risk that the government doesn't see the need to spend the money and resources to pull it off the market? 

Guys,  I bought a bag of TQ when Boykjo came to SELA so he could make sausage.  Next SELA I will probably give away a full bag of TQ less 6 Tablespoons as a door prize unless Joe is going to make sausage again.  BTW  I also have a can of Kosher salt with just a couple of Ts missing  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





It would be real nice to have an accurate, published list of ingredients with their proportions for TQ. 

Once we have that information then the argument becomes how does the  nitrate affect the available amount of nitrite.  Over the years I read how to handle this question, I believe it was in Marianski, but I do not recall.  If I can find it I'll scan the page, give credit to the author and post

How does the residual nitrate affect the safety of the food

Can something cause the immediate conversion of nitrates to nitrites pushing the concentration of nitrites outside of safe curing limits?


----------



## DanMcG

Al, the amount of nitrate is 0.5% by volume so that  1/2 (14gm)ounce per pound contains 0.07gm or 154ppm legally we can use 2187ppm's so we're looking at about 7% of the max


----------



## alblancher

Thank you Dan

So the amount of nitrate in TQ is insignificant?


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## DanMcG

alblancher said:


> Thank you Dan
> 
> So the amount of nitrate in TQ is insignificant?




LOL I can't answer that. sure seems it to me but my bag of D.Q.#2 is 3.63% nitrate that works out to 88ppm or 4% of the max.

Like I've said I'm not very familiar with cure #2

If allowable is 2187ppm why is only a small fraction used in either?


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## alblancher

OK so that is what  1 Tablespoon DQ 2 per lb.  Sorry had a couple glasses of wine last night and don't feel like doing the math myself,  lazy I guess.


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## DanMcG

My #2 is used at a rate of 4 oz per 100 pounds. I prefer gram measures so that's 1.1gram per pound (454grams)

Thats the same rate as #1

FYI this #2 also has less nitrite then #1 at 5.67%

LOL, I ain't going to get squat done this morning


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## alblancher

So if we know how much stuff is in stuff we have and we want to know how much of that stuff we want in the stuff we are cooking a little math will tell you how much stuff we need to add to the stuff we are making to have safe stuff?

I better just go take a shower and try to wake up.


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## DanMcG

Exactly


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## sausageboy

Now we're getting somewhere!!!!!

Thanks folks!!!


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## DanMcG

No thank You.......


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## sausageboy

FWIW....here is what our 'friends' at the almighty USDA have to say about cures containing both nitrate and nitrite. 




'NITRITE AND NITRATE USED TOGETHER IN A SINGLE CURING METHOD

When nitrite and nitrate are used together in a single curing method, each one is calculated
independently and each one is permitted to be used up to the maximum individual limits listed in
Table II'

Table II
MAXIMUM INGOING NITRITE AND NITRATE LIMITS (IN PPM)
FOR MEAT AND POULTRY PRODUCTS


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## alblancher

I've been on this board long enough to know that 99% of the visitors to this site will not do the math.  They just want to know how much.  There may be a couple of dozen of us that can sit down and demonstrate how to determine the concentrations of cure in a product.  Let's be honest, it is kind of geeky.  To the people that are not interested in the math, *You must use the cure used in the recipe you are using.*

To the professionals, to the advanced hobbyist and to the geeks that are willing to learn about allowable concentrations of cure agents, to become comfortable with the math. to learn how much cure agent is in the cure mixes you are using then you *may have the advantage of being able to substitute cure mixes*.   But please be clear with the general membership that they need to know what they are doing.  *As a general rule I do not recommend substituting cures.*

We have an ongoing discussion about having a closed forum open only to the second group.  The professionals, the advanced hobbyist and the geeks among us.  This would be a place where we can have detailed discussions similar to this thread without having to be concerned that a newbie will misunderstand and make a mistake that could make them ill.  We are not there yet so please keep in mind that if someone that believe you are an "expert" reads your post, misinterprets it you hold a bit of responsibility.  I do not wish to be responsible for someones health so I will continue to take the safe easy way when posting in an open forum.


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## sausageboy

If we know that TQ is used at a rate of 1 level tablespoon per pound for cuts of meat, and 1/2 a level tablespoon (1-1/2 teaspoons) per pound with ground meats. Which anyone who uses TQ should know.
And we know that the nitrate and nitrite are within safes level in TQ when used in such a way, which they are, we don't need to use much, if any, math the use TQ in recipes as long as we know the weight of our meat.
That's the beauty of it.

And I agree, if someone isn't comfortable and confident  in their understanding of cures and curing, please, only use the recipe as directed.


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## alblancher

Sausageboy

My comments are directed at all cure mixes.  Not just TQ.   There are many posts concerning special cure mixes made by companies for specific purposes.  People always post questions about using a cure mix that came with casings or sold as a  " fill in the blank"  ____________  cure mix  They want to know if they can use that cure mix in a recipe they have found in a book somewhere.

Now that I know the percentage of Nitrates in Morton's Tender Quick is so low as to be insignificant it should not be a health issue in short term cures.


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## sausageboy

alblancher said:


> Sausageboy
> 
> 
> My comments are directed at all cure mixes.  Not just TQ.   There are many posts concerning special cure mixes made by companies for specific purposes.  People always post questions about using a cure mix that came with casings or sold as a  " fill in the blank"  ____________  cure mix  They want to know if they can use that cure mix in a recipe they have found in a book somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I know the percentage of Nitrates in Morton's Tender Quick is so low as to be insignificant it should not be a health issue in short term cures.



I totally understand!!!!

That's why I said...

*"And I agree, if someone isn't comfortable and confident in their understanding of cures and curing, please, only use the recipe as directed."*


:biggrin:


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## sausageboy

But when you think about it, "Follow the recipe." or "You must use the cure used in the recipe you are using." and the like isn't the best and safest kind of advice.
That works okay if the recipe is accurate (no mistakes) and safe, but I run across questionable recipes and practices quite frequently.

The best advice may be......*Because of potential safety issues, educate yourself and much as possible about cures and curing, making sure you understand it all enough to do it safely before you follow any recipe or do any curing! Double check all recipes for safety before proceeding.*

In other words, please know what you are doing before curing.


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## ak1

That's the big issue.

One of my local butchers doesn't sell curing salts during the summer months, because he had an issue with people doing curing and then hanging meat in the garage to cure where temperatures were in the 80's & 90's. Then they wondered why the meat went bad!!!!  
 


alblancher said:


> I've been on this board long enough to know that 99% of the visitors to this site will not do the math.  They just want to know how much.  There may be a couple of dozen of us that can sit down and demonstrate how to determine the concentrations of cure in a product.  Let's be honest, it is kind of geeky.  To the people that are not interested in the math, *You must use the cure used in the recipe you are using.*
> 
> To the professionals, to the advanced hobbyist and to the geeks that are willing to learn about allowable concentrations of cure agents, to become comfortable with the math. to learn how much cure agent is in the cure mixes you are using then you *may have the advantage of being able to substitute cure mixes*.   But please be clear with the general membership that they need to know what they are doing.  *As a general rule I do not recommend substituting cures.*
> 
> We have an ongoing discussion about having a closed forum open only to the second group.  The professionals, the advanced hobbyist and the geeks among us.  This would be a place where we can have detailed discussions similar to this thread without having to be concerned that a newbie will misunderstand and make a mistake that could make them ill.  We are not there yet so please keep in mind that if someone that believe you are an "expert" reads your post, misinterprets it you hold a bit of responsibility.  I do not wish to be responsible for someones health so I will continue to take the safe easy way when posting in an open forum.


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## chef jimmyj

SausageBoy said:


> But when you think about it, "Follow the recipe." or "You must use the cure used in the recipe you are using." and the like isn't the best and safest kind of advice.
> That works okay if the recipe is accurate (no mistakes) and safe, but I run across questionable recipes and practices quite frequently.
> The best advice may be......*Because of potential safety issues, educate yourself and much as possible about cures and curing, making sure you understand it all enough to do it safely before you follow any recipe or do any curing! Double check all recipes for safety before proceeding.*
> In other words, please know what you are doing before curing.


This is ABSOLUTLY TRUE!...Great advice...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





...Thanks...JJ


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## DanMcG

SausageBoy said:


> The best advice may be......*Because of potential safety issues, educate yourself and much as possible about cures and curing, making sure you understand it all enough to do it safely before you follow any recipe or do any curing! Double check all recipes for safety before proceeding.*
> In other words, please know what you are doing before curing.


I agree 100%, I've seen recipes by recognized authors that are totally wrong, and having the knowledge to see the errors to me, just takes the fear factor out of curing..

If you're not sure about something post the question and somebody will chime it to help.

 Ya might have noticed we take this seriously and except for some trouble reading people across the net, I think we all agree on curing safety is a prime importance
 

I'm just wondering Is there a liability issue with posting copywrited recipes that are known to be dangerous as far a curing goes? I've emailed two authors on this and never received a response.

Or  would posting a link to the recipe and showing the issue here doing the math be a liability to the forum owners?

It wouldn't be my intent to discredit the person but to just save someone from some possible sickness.


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## sausageboy

DanMcG said:


> I'm just wondering Is there a liability issue with posting copywrited recipes that are known to be dangerous as far a curing goes? I've emailed two authors on this and never received a response.
> Or  would posting a link to the recipe and showing the issue here doing the math be a liability to the forum owners?
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be my intent to discredit the person but to just save someone from some possible sickness.



Good questions!
Just today I found a recipe on the website of a well respected "authority" and "expert" that's blatantly bad *(twice the recommended safe level of nitrite!!!)* :icon_eek:

Which is another good lesson to be learned..*."Don't assume that because someone is considered an 'expert', that they always know what they are talking about or that they are free from making mistakes!"*
Always double check for safety!!
Educate yourself! You are responsible for you!


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