# Why does weight not matter when using Pop's cure?



## worktogthr (Mar 1, 2017)

Can anyone (especially Pop himself) give me the explanation as to why weight of the meat is not factored into curing meat with Pop's Curing Brine?  I was recently told that it would not be safe to cold smoke with his Cure as is without considering the weight of the meat but I have myself and seen many others do it.  Thanks


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## biteme7951 (Mar 1, 2017)

My understanding is you only need weight to determine how much brine to mix as his calculations are based on PPM for equal weight of meat and water for finished equilibrium of cure and meat. So I use 1 gal of brine for each 8.5lbs of meat.

Barry.


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## worktogthr (Mar 1, 2017)

biteme7951 said:


> My understanding is you only need weight to determine how much brine to mix as his calculations are based on PPM for equal weight of meat and water for finished equilibrium of cure and meat. So I use 1 gal of brine for each 8.5lbs of meat.
> 
> Barry.


Makes sense.. sort of haha I am a science dope! Would it make sense to say that anything over 8.5 pounds would probably require 2 gallons of the brine in order to completely cover it anyways.


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## biteme7951 (Mar 1, 2017)

Yes, I usually mix 2 gallons for a 12lb turkey, or 1-1/2 gallons for 10lbs of chicken quarters. Put in food grade bags with all air removed.

Barry.


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## SmokinAl (Mar 1, 2017)

I guess there is a scientific way to figure how much cure to put in the brine based on the weight of the meat.

But I have been using Pop's brine as is for several years & cold smoking with it with no bad results.

I do know that on my container of cure#1 it says the maximum allowable concentration of cure#1 in 1 gallon of water is 5 TBS.

I generally use 2, and Pop's recipe calls for 1 heaping TBS.

In an attempt to get a cure on something in 24 hours, I have used 4 TBS per gallon.

So what I'm saying is that anything from 1 heaping TBS to 5 TBS is acceptable in one gallon of water.

I think the only criteria is to make sure the meat is totally submerged. More cure = less cure time.

I don't think it matters what the weight of the meat is as long as it is completely covered.

DaveOmak should chime in on this, because he has the scientific answer to your question.

Al


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## worktogthr (Mar 1, 2017)

biteme7951 said:


> Yes, I usually mix 2 gallons for a 12lb turkey, or 1-1/2 gallons for 10lbs of chicken quarters. Put in food grade bags with all air removed.
> 
> Barry.



Thanks Barry!  Just needed the reassurance that I was right.  Since I don't know much of the science of Curing I was doubting myself.


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## worktogthr (Mar 1, 2017)

SmokinAl said:


> I guess there is a scientific way to figure how much cure to put in the brine based on the weight of the meat.
> 
> But I have been using Pop's brine as is for several years & cold smoking with it with no bad results.
> 
> ...





SmokinAl said:


> I guess there is a scientific way to figure how much cure to put in the brine based on the weight of the meat.
> 
> But I have been using Pop's brine as is for several years & cold smoking with it with no bad results.
> 
> ...



Thanks Al!  I recommended a wet cure to someone who had never made bacon before because of its simplicity and I was basically attacked by another poster (different forum) for giving unsafe advice.  He claimed that any cure that doesn't take into account the specific weight of the meat is for flavor only and not safety


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## JckDanls 07 (Mar 1, 2017)

I am by no means a cure specialist/expert...  far from it.... I am still a greenhorn when it comes to curing... It's my understanding that 200 PPM is the maximum amount of cure to be used safely... Pop's brine is only 156 PPM ...  It is an equilibrium brine...  meaning the maximum amount of cure that will go into the meat (no matter the size) will be 156 PPM... Even if you make 2 gallons with the same "recipe" (for each gallon)  it is still only 156 PPM ... As long as the meat is completely submerged it seems like it wouldn't matter if you use 1 gallon.. 1 1/2 gallons...  or 2 gallons ...  it's still only 156 PPM .... 

When dry curing or curing ground meat.. this is when you need to weigh everything so as to not go over 200 PPM ...   this probably doesn't help explain much ...


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## pc farmer (Mar 1, 2017)

JckDanls 07 said:


> I am by no means a cure specialist/expert... far from it.... I am still a greenhorn when it comes to curing... It's my understanding that 200 PPM is the maximum amount of cure to be used safely... Pop's brine is only 156 PPM ... It is an equilibrium brine... meaning the maximum amount of cure that will go into the meat (no matter the size) will be 156 PPM... Even if you make 2 gallons with the same "recipe" (for each gallon) it is still only 156 PPM ... As long as the meat is completely submerged it seems like it wouldn't matter if you use 1 gallon.. 1 1/2 gallons... or 2 gallons ... it's still only 156 PPM ....
> 
> When dry curing or curing ground meat.. this is when you need to weigh everything so as to not go over 200 PPM ... this probably doesn't help explain much ...


This is my thinking also.


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## pops6927 (Mar 2, 2017)

Allow me to refer you to Wade's testing:  

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results


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## worktogthr (Mar 3, 2017)

Pops6927 said:


> Allow me to refer you to Wade's testing:
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results


Thanks so much!  I wish I had this information handy when the safety of your dad's cure was being questioned.  Thank you also to @Wade


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## pops6927 (Mar 3, 2017)

Dad's curing brine was continually tested by NYS Food and Safety Department (later assumed by US Dep't of Food Inspection when the State was taken over by U.S.) for more than 45 years in operation of daily Inspections, and passed every single time.  My adaptation of his curing brine was from his original formula produced by Aula Company.  And Wade's independent testing just confirms that.


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## wade (Mar 3, 2017)

As we all appreciate, curing is an art and not a science. We cannot accurately determine the amount of Nitrite (or Nitrate) that is in the food once the cure has completed without getting it lab tested. What we are doing when we produce a batch of cure (be it dry, immersion or injection) is calculating the *maximum* amount of cure that *could* remain in the meat once it has been cured. This is called the "Ingoing" or "Added" Nitrite

Just because you weigh out sufficient Nitrite to produce a calculated end concentration of 158 Ppm, the only thing that you can be certain of is that it will actually be less than 158 Ppm. Not all will be absorbed. Some parts of the meat will absorb more than others. Some will be quickly metabolised or chemically broken down. If you heat treat (cook) as part of the curing process then a great proportion of the Nitrite is likely to have gone because of that too. How much less do we have? We cannot tell without expensive laboratory testing. But does it actually matter?

The guidelines (USDA, FSA, European Union etc.) have determined that if we start off with an ingoing level of Nitrite at, say, 158 Ppm then the amount left in the meat after the curing process has been completed will be in the zone where there is sufficient Nitrite remaining for it to provide its protection against anaerobic spores but not be in sufficient levels that will do us harm (or potential harm).

If we were to go to 170 Ppm or even 200 Ppm would that be safe? Yes it would. If we were to drop down to 100 Ppm would that be safe? almost certainly depending on what you are curing. Do we need to add Nitrite in every cure? No we don't. If we are planning on keeping the product refrigerated after curing and will eat it within 10 days then there is often little benefit (other than flavour and colour) from using Nitrite.

Why do we not need to worry about the weight of meat with Pops brine? Pops brine uses an excess of brine and the equilibrium method to distribute it throughout the mass of the meat by diffusion. If we calculate the starting Nitrite concentration in the brine to be 158 Ppm and then add the meat to the brine then water, salts, proteins etc will diffuse in both directions until there is approximately an equal concentration of all of them in both the brine and also the fluids surrounding any intact meat cells. Some may even diffuse or be taken up by intact met cells too. Because the meat is not all water (only about 70-75% water and about 20% protein) we will never get a truly equal weight for weight equilibrium between brine and meat

If you assume 1 Kg of meat and then calculate the theoretical end concentration once equilibrium has been reached using different volumes of brine then it is not until you start to use smaller volumes of brine does the theoretical PPM start to drop off sharply.













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__ wade
__ Mar 3, 2017






With Pops method, providing you have an excess of brine, then the resulting theoretical Ppm will still be within acceptable limits.

If you are using a very small quantity of brine when immersion brining then you do need to take the weight of meat into account.


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## disco (Mar 3, 2017)

I am no scientist but I will throw my two bits worth in. I used Pop's brine successfully many times. However, If the piece of meat was bigger and there was less water or vice versa, I would note the final result was not consistent. They were all good but there was slightly different finished results. I changed up and started measuring the total weight of the water and meat. I calculated the amount of Prague Powder #1, and all the other ingredients, sugar, salt and any spices based on the total weight of water and meat. I got the same great results but with more consistency in the finished products.

I am sure Pop's brine is safe as I used it with great results. I changed to this only to get more consistent taste. It is the only way I brine my cured pork now and it works great.

Disco


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