# The ammonia taste of Mold-600



## Lolley (Dec 20, 2017)

I used Bactoferm Mold-600 on some Lonzinos and Bresaolas without casings because I thought it would help with case hardening. I also had 1 smaller piece of loin that I just cold smoked (heavy) for 8 hours and put in my curing chamber with the rest. Well my mold-600 grew so well that they were completely covered with heavy mold in less than 2 days, and when everything was done I wished I hadn't used the mold. The ammonia flavor was too much, even if I brush it off and wipe it down it still lingers in the meat. The small piece that I smoked actually had less case hardening than the others and tasted much better. I have been making dried sausage for over 30 years and I always used heavy cold smoke and never had any mold or bad taste. I should have known better but I decided to try my luck at whole muscle curing instead of sausage. This of course meant making a curing chamber and buying fancy surface molds etc. (at least that's what everyone was saying on the internet). Since then I just dry cure and then give it a good dose of cold smoke and put it in the chamber. I do enjoy the curing chamber though (compared to just hanging in the open) so I guess some of the new technology these days does have its benefits. By the way, the smaller piece (smoked) never grew any mold even though it was right next to the others that were covered with an 1/8" of mold-600. I'm now a firm believer that enough cold smoking can protect against the bad molds and not cause much case hardening if your curing chamber is up to snuff, so no more nasty tasting surface molds for me (at least not on whole muscle without casings). I may try it again if I ever use a casing that can be pealed off later. 

I searched but couldn't find much about the ammonia taste offending anyone, so I need some of you guys to let me know if you like the taste or not, and if using casings that can be removed later makes the ammonia taste in the meat less prominent.


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## backcountrylivn (Dec 21, 2017)

Just curious as to when u added the mold culture?and how long the meats have been hanging?Temp?humidity?Pics?lol
I too was a basement rafter hanging type of guy till i built a hillbilly chamber.Ur humidity must be some high to have that much growth that fast.I have never had a strong amonia taste in a product while using bactoferm 600,but some strong smells while the mold is growing.I quite enjoy the mushroom smell and taste it produces when finished.Curious to see what the pros say.Cfarmer and daveomak have helped me along on this site,nice to get some support:)They are very knowledgeable folks.


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## daveomak (Dec 21, 2017)

*I used Bactoferm Mold-600 on some Lonzinos and Bresaolas without casings because I thought it would help with case hardening* ....

I think you "may" have used mold 600 in an application, where I cannot find a recommendation...  raw meat coverage may not be acceptable...  Seems you may be in that camp now...
As to your problem of case hardening...   Proper humidity, temperature and air flow are appropriate and do an excellent job controlling case hardening...
As you also noted, smoke...  Smoke does control molds on meat surfaces...  Smoke is a preservative in its own right...

As mentioned previously, Do not mix and match recipes..   Find a reputable source other than the internet forums, blogs etc... even some "Drs. on some food blogs/forums"  don't follow FDA/USDA/FSIS" protocols... 
FDA, Universities are good choices..


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## hoity toit (Dec 21, 2017)

I agree with Dave.

HT


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## backcountrylivn (Dec 21, 2017)

daveomak said:


> *I used Bactoferm Mold-600 on some Lonzinos and Bresaolas without casings because I thought it would help with case hardening* ....
> 
> I think you "may" have used mold 600 in an application, where I cannot find a recommendation...  raw meat coverage may not be acceptable...  Seems you may be in that camp now...
> As to your problem of case hardening...   Proper humidity, temperature and air flow are appropriate and do an excellent job controlling case hardening...
> ...


I sure hope its acceptable lol,i have 8 loins covered with it as we speak
Seriously tho,i have used 600 on beef rounds before,back before i had a chamber of sorts lol.Personally i never had any problems with strong amonia ,but that was hanging in open air in a basement.


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## daveomak (Dec 21, 2017)

*I sure hope its acceptable lol,i have 8 loins covered with it as we speak
*
Did you find a recipe that suggested using mold 600 directly on the meat ?????


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## atomicsmoke (Dec 21, 2017)

I used mold 600 a few times...never tasted amonia...just the typical benefical mold taste (mushroomy). But my mold was never that thick like you describe.

I am surprised mold grew on the smoked meat. 

When you prepared the mold solution have you used it as it says in the package? (within 12 or 24 h....can't remember). I understand that using it after that creates the risk of contamination with some nasty yeasts. Could have been that?


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## backcountrylivn (Dec 22, 2017)

daveomak said:


> *I sure hope its acceptable lol,i have 8 loins covered with it as we speak
> *
> Did you find a recipe that suggested using mold 600 directly on the meat ?????


No i did not,guess i figured it was fine since its edible.As i mentioned,i had no strong taste from it being applied directly to the surface.


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## daveomak (Dec 22, 2017)

Good point...  Good test....  When I read the Bresaola recipe, it calls for a casing of sorts to stuff the meat in ....   Well, the casing has to breathe...  I picked up some kite making material that is very light weight... food safe... and porous..  it has 0.2 micron porosity...   it breathes yet water can't pass through it..  only moisture....  sounds like it might work...  I'm waiting for my s$%t to get together so I can try it..


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## Lolley (Dec 24, 2017)

Maybe my wording was a little strong, the taste does start leaning toward more of a "mushroomy" flavor with more age, but I must be sensitive to the flavor as others have tasted some and don't find it overbearing, of course they usually have a mason jar in one hand when they are doing the tasting. To me the flavor seems to cover up a lot of the other seasonings. I don't know if the mold should be applied to un-cased muscle but all I can remember from my childhood was seeing a whitish mold growing on large chunks of un-cased pork my dad used to have hanging in the "meat house" (_small building with a kitchen and plenty of stainless steel tables and a walk in cooler_) and that was in the '60s, I doubt that there where any molds that you could purchase back then so it must have grown on it's own. I never asked him why he hung it in the building instead of the walk in cooler, I just didn't think that stuff was important back then ( _what can I say, it was the '60s_ ). My dad passed 15 years ago and I regret not getting every bit of his meat curing knowledge before he died, but that goes for a lot of things that I use to see my parents, grandparents and others do. At the time we were young and didn't take the time to learn the old tricks that they learned from their parents, what I wouldn't give to get another chance to go back and pay very close attention. It's sad that my generation screwed up and ended a lot of traditions that should have been passed down.

I grew the mold at 75f and 85%rh, that was applied with a spray bottle at 1/2tsp 600 with 2/3 cup 75f water (_let sit for 2hrs_.). I sprayed 6 pieces 3 times each before I ran out. I just rinsed the meat after the cure, tied it and sprayed right away.

I've found that if you cold smoke the meat before spraying the mold it will grow but it will take 4 or 5 days to get started. If I spray before smoking It won't grow at all.

One of the descriptions of the mold-600 is to help case hardening when temps are low and humidity is low, so I figured that since I had seen it 50 years ago that it might help. Like I said in my first post, I have been doing only dried sausage for a long time which would grow some white mold when hung in the meat house but I would just wipe it off. I'm just now diving into the whole muscle thing, and yes I'm to lazy or hard headed or maybe I just want to stick to the SHTF scenario of not having any casings.

My next project is to get better at the 35% weight loss type of dried sausage as I've always dried it hard so it would last forever, I've eaten a piece that was (_un-wrapped_) in the pocket of my hunting jacket for 4 years and it was delicious, of course when you start getting older the hard stuff hurts the teeth.

I've got tons of pictures, I just don't have a hosting site and I can't upload them straight to this forum.


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## forkin pork (Dec 26, 2017)

Hmm, after reading this, I'm getting nervous with my meat hanging, but not to much as you've all helped me along.
I've got relatively heavy mold grow with 80% humidity, perhaps now I should turn my circulation fan on and run it 24/7

Also, love that mushroomy smell as well, gonna go give my a snort


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## atomicsmoke (Dec 26, 2017)

forkin pork said:


> Hmm, after reading this, I'm getting nervous with my meat hanging, but not to much as you've all helped me along.
> I've got relatively heavy mold grow with 80% humidity, perhaps now I should turn my circulation fan on and run it 24/7
> 
> Also, love that mushroomy smell as well, gonna go give my a snort


I wouldnt worry about it


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## daveomak (Dec 26, 2017)

What kind of air speed do you have...   24/7 fan can cause case hardening....


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## forkin pork (Dec 27, 2017)

It only got 1 speed daveo, it a 3" x 3" fan, much like a computer fan, only this one is used to move air around in your house during the winter.
You would mount it up top in the corner of a doorway to push air.
It doesn't push a ton of air, but more then a mini computer fan.
I have it off, for some season I am having trouble getting the humidity below 81% and the fan only makes it go up.

I have a dehumidifier coming Saturday afternoon, I should be ok till then.
What do you think?


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## daveomak (Dec 27, 2017)

I purchased a " Century Short Period Repeat Cycle Timer Day/night, or 24 Hours Operation"...  It's going to be part of my curing chamber when I get going...  I plan on using it to turn my fan on and off...   check it out.... $30..  it can be used in conjunction with this voltage controller to slow the fan as needed..... 

 Cycle Timer


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## forkin pork (Dec 28, 2017)

I wish I knew you were purchasing a timer, I would have recommended Feelle Timer, it's only 14.99 on Amazon.
Great timer, plus it has about 4 different functions, one being a cycle timer. So if anyone is looking I'd recommend that one.
But I do like the voltage regulator, I'm gonna order that one to slow my fan down, thanks for that daveo.


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## daveomak (Dec 28, 2017)

forkin pork said:


> I wish I knew you were purchasing a timer, I would have recommended Feelle Timer, it's only 14.99 on Amazon.
> QUOTE]
> I purchased that timer during a "Lightening deal" on Amazon for $16...  I couldn't pass it up
> It will be a cold day in **** when old Dave pays full price...


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2018)

Lolley said:


> I used Bactoferm Mold-600 on some Lonzinos and Bresaolas without casings because I thought it would help with case hardening. I also had 1 smaller piece of loin that I just cold smoked (heavy) for 8 hours and put in my curing chamber with the rest. Well my mold-600 grew so well that they were completely covered with heavy mold in less than 2 days, and when everything was done I wished I hadn't used the mold. The ammonia flavor was too much, even if I brush it off and wipe it down it still lingers in the meat. The small piece that I smoked actually had less case hardening than the others and tasted much better. I have been making dried sausage for over 30 years and I always used heavy cold smoke and never had any mold or bad taste. I should have known better but I decided to try my luck at whole muscle curing instead of sausage. This of course meant making a curing chamber and buying fancy surface molds etc. (at least that's what everyone was saying on the internet). Since then I just dry cure and then give it a good dose of cold smoke and put it in the chamber. I do enjoy the curing chamber though (compared to just hanging in the open) so I guess some of the new technology these days does have its benefits. By the way, the smaller piece (smoked) never grew any mold even though it was right next to the others that were covered with an 1/8" of mold-600. I'm now a firm believer that enough cold smoking can protect against the bad molds and not cause much case hardening if your curing chamber is up to snuff, so no more nasty tasting surface molds for me (at least not on whole muscle without casings). I may try it again if I ever use a casing that can be pealed off later.
> 
> I searched but couldn't find much about the ammonia taste offending anyone, so I need some of you guys to let me know if you like the taste or not, and if using casings that can be removed later makes the ammonia taste in the meat less prominent.



Ammonia odor and flavor is a symptom of a problem. I have encountered this issue before. I would suggest evaluating the air flow, ambient humidity, and double check the ratio of Mold 600 to water. Sometimes high humidity in uneven airflow and over-inoculation can cause "out growth" and may even increase the rate at which the proteins in your sausages break down.


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## daveomak (Jun 25, 2018)

I found this in one of Dr. Chris Hansen papers

*"Ammonia“ aroma too strong*
Too much use of Penicillium Candidum
 Too much presence of yeasts
 Wrong fermentation & drying cycle kills first growth of molds;
dying molds create more ammonia
 Use more penicillium nalgiovense


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

Hi All,
Having same issue. It starter about 2 weeks into drying. Temp set at 14c and 82rh. Using Mold 600, as directed on packaging. Should I brush off? I have now lowered temp to 10c and have curing fridge tiny bit open to let air circulate.

Thanks
Luca


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

Is the meat encased in something ???  Or do you have the mold directly on the meat surface ???


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

Also, lower the humidity to 78-80% if you RH gauge is accurate...  82% "may" be just a tad high....


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

Hi Daveomak,
Salami encased in hog casings. Followed Len Poli recipe to the T. Using ink bird humidifier/dehumidifier to set rh. Seems close enough to reality. I will add another RH thermostat to validate. So I should only lower rh you say. I read on here that mold 600 dying causes ammonia smell is that accurate. Why would it die.  Or maybe it’s too active? Hence lower rh?
First timer btw :)
Thanks
Luca


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

From what I understand, the mold creates spores and dies...  It's a revolving cycle... 
From what I have read from folks that do charcuterie for a living, 80-82% seems to be the point where molds grow, drying doesn't dry too well.... 
Below ~75% ish....  case hardening is more obvious....  Sooooooooooo, I'm thinking these folks have very expensive equipment including instrumentation as they process hundreds of pounds of meat per batch...  Failure is not an option....
The narrow window for creating awesome product is narrow...
All of that being said, your equipment is obviously doing well....  Tweaking the settings, to improve upon the results, will be a "touchy-feely" type of process...  taking notes on settings, eyeballing the product and maybe taking many pictures to log your product and following the results to obtain your goals is something to think about...
Monitoring air changes in the chamber could be appropriate....  
We are speaking of minute changes here...  It is a science...  
One member here, Even Brady, does this for a living....  Has his own outlet for supplies, which I do purchase from.. and works at a very reputable salumerie...  

......
	

		
			
		

		
	








One of his Coppa....  Obtaining minute case hardening is an art in itself....

10C is about the lower end of the temp range... as is About 75% RH for a quality product...
Then there is the difference in the instruments...  At 10c and say 78% RH, You will get a very high quality product in maybe 4-6 months...   From what I understand, the finished product will awesome...   Slower is better....  The meat flavors will change with time... as will tenderness...
Sorry to ramble on...   I just think this process is a step beyond,  and should be followed for preservation...
DON'T GIVE UP !!!!


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## indaswamp (Apr 8, 2019)

daveomak said:


> I purchased a " Century Short Period Repeat Cycle Timer Day/night, or 24 Hours Operation"...  It's going to be part of my curing chamber when I get going...  I plan on using it to turn my fan on and off...   check it out.... $30..  it can be used in conjunction with this voltage controller to slow the fan as needed.....
> 
> Cycle Timer


Dave, you link is not working...


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

Yes I see that now. I will not give up. Funny thing I lowered from 85 rh to 82.5 just recently. Also just read that Mold 600 should only be used day of preparation because of possible yeast contamination. I re-sprayed a few days later to get full cover. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Would yeast cause ammonia smell?
Tks
Luca


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

Just looking up info on Mold 600 and find no official details on how it should be used re temp/rh
Luca


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## indaswamp (Apr 8, 2019)

I'm a complete newb to this, but From what I have read @ wedlney&Donome is that you should keep the target rh lower in the beginning because as the meat evaporates water, it pushed the rh higher....as Dave has mentioned. W&D recommend target of 75%rh for the first stage of drying...then after the meat dries a bit, you can adjust it a little higher. They also recommend periodically opening the chamber to remove some humidity.


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

Maybe this one will work...

............  cycle timer


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

I went to Evan's site, "Craft Butchers Pantry" for the descriptions, as he really wants his customers to know the entire speil.. all 4 pages of it...

.......   Mold 600   .......


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## indaswamp (Apr 8, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Maybe this one will work...
> 
> ............  cycle timer


Got it, yea, thanks  that one works...bookmarked for my chamber build.


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

Thank you Daveomac! Going to do some reading and validating. Started off with 90rh and 20c for 72 hours then dropped to 85rh and 14c for the last 2 weeks.  Was going to progressively lower rh at same temp. Just recently went down to rh 82.5 and ammonia smell started. Still wondering what causes that specifically if temp and rh are a factor and if maybe overactive Mold.


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

So all the reading i've points to this being somewhat normal process and to be patient. So will be patient and lower rh to 80ish for a while and then attempt going lower to 75 progressively. And then seems it's not an exact science to what people do every recipe i read states different drying cycles and fermentation cycles. 
Thanks to all
Luca


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2019)

When using fermenting bacteria, those cultures are specific to certain temps and humidity when starting the ferment.. and subsequent temps and RH...   Use the manufacturers recommendations...  
Each bacteria culture was developed to match specific regions of "Europe" to imitate those flavor profiles and the "weather" is part of that process....


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## indaswamp (Apr 8, 2019)

Right on Dave...thanks for posting!


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## indaswamp (Apr 8, 2019)

I found this:
"
*More About Humidity Control*
It takes a day or two to get to know your adjustable humidifier. When fermentation starts humidity should be high (> 90%) but set your humidifier lower, at about 75% and see what will happen in an hour or two. Evaporating moisture from the sausages will increase humidity inside your fermentation chamber to about 90% or higher. Open the door periodically to let the moisture out (do some fanning with a magazine) and humidity will fall down let’s say to 80%.

Close the door and check it again to see the humidity level. Were you to set up your humidity at 90% or higher, the evaporating moisture from the sausages will soon saturate the chamber and the sausages will be soaking wet. The door should be opened and the chamber dehumidified. When drying sausages do the same, set your humidifier at 60% and see how humid the drying chamber becomes. As the sausage loses more moisture, these changes will be less pronounced and a point will be reached when humidity in the chamber will be a little higher than the setting of the humidifier.

In closed chambers such as modified refrigerators, there is no ingress nor egress of the air, and the evaporating moisture from the sausages will increase the humidity in the chamber. The fan will just facilitate drying but will move the same air around. That is why the door will have to be periodically opened to let this moisture out. If an opening could be made, a fan controlled by a humidistat switched to "dehumidify" mode would remove moist air outside. In commercial chambers the correctly prepared air (temperature and humidity) is blown into the room and sucked out at the other side."

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/equipment


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## Lucad (Apr 8, 2019)

I think I did ok for my first curing chamber. Old fridge with heat pad, dehumidifier and humidifier. Seems to average where I set my set points. Just since this is a first for me wondered why ammonia smell. Never saw anything about until I had the occurrence. 
A1 forum and website full of good info and helpful gents. Added a pic of rosette salami and some smoked chorizo I been working on.


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## daveomak (Apr 9, 2019)

You did great...   I think you can substitute teach this subject....


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## indaswamp (Mar 11, 2020)

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add that the ammonia smell is due to the  Penicillium nalgiovense breaking down some of the lactic acid and one of the by-products of that is ammonia. It is recommended to adjust your temp. down a couple degrees, and lower humidity about 5%. This will slow down the mold converting the lactic acid and produce less ammonia. This is also what causes the slight pH rise (less acidity) in slow fermentation salamis.

Read that somewhere in one of the Marianske books....


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