# Butt bacon prague 1 or 2?



## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

I am seeing both.  Intent is to cure two weeks smoke till145.  Chill rapidly partial freeze and slice.


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## GrumpyGriller (Mar 25, 2022)

This is what I use...

Also - great username :)


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

I think the recipe i have uses 2 because of the 14 day cure time?  Is that considered too long for #1?


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

You need cure #1. (Nitrite)
Cure #2 contains both nitrite and nitrate. This cure is used when the process will exceed 30-40 days, like country ham or salami.


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## Brokenhandle (Mar 25, 2022)

You want to use cure 1.

Ryan


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Here's the site I found recipe for buckboard bacon





						Sausage Recipes and Formulations
					

A collection of proven recipes for making sausage. Recipes and formulations are in both U.S. and Metric measurements with instruction on grinding, mixing, stuffing, coorking or curing sausages




					lpoli.50webs.com


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Thanks guys. Back to Amazon for #1!


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Well marianski says #2 is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon because of the nitrates. I also read about tender quick which I have never used but it seems to have nitrate also.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Here's the site I found recipe for buckboard bacon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like Poli’s recipes usually. This recipe should not use cure #2.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Well marianski says #2 is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon because of the nitrates. I also read about tender quick which I have never used but it seems to have nitrate also.


This is correct. USDA has banned the use of nitrate in conventional bacon, sort of. Technically you can’t use nitrate but all the “uncured” bacon on store shelves is in fact cured with celery powder which is high in nitrates. They just are not classified as a curing agent by the USDA, so the product is labeled “uncured” even though the bacon is perfectly cured “pink” in color.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

If you were to make a dry cured product like pancetta (from pork belly) or copicola (from pork shoulder) you would need to use cure #2 with nitrates to maintain bacterial protection in the process as it takes months to complete.


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Here's the ingredients I'ma just substitute #1
2 lb. Pork shoulder butt 910.0 g
1/3 cup Un-sulfured molasses  75.0 ml 
1/4 cup Kosher salt  48.0 g
3/4 cup Brown sugar, dark, packed 45.0 g 2 Tbs. Liquid smoke
30.0 ml 1 Tbs. Garlic powder  9.0 g
1 Tbs. Onion powder  8.0 g
1 tsp. Cure #2


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## indaswamp (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Here's the ingredients I'ma just substitute #1
> 2 lb. Pork shoulder butt 910.0 g
> 1/3 cup Un-sulfured molasses  75.0 ml 1/4 cup Kosher salt  48.0 g
> 3/4 cup Brown sugar, dark, packed 45.0 g 2 Tbs. Liquid smoke
> ...


No salt? Or did you just not type it? You need the salt to make bacon.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Here's the ingredients I'ma just substitute #1
> 2 lb. Pork shoulder butt 910.0 g
> 1/3 cup Un-sulfured molasses  75.0 ml 1/4 cup Kosher salt  48.0 g
> 3/4 cup Brown sugar, dark, packed 45.0 g 2 Tbs. Liquid smoke
> ...


You forgot the salt.
That said, after reviewing the recipe, I would advise you not to follow this recipe. Many problems with it, and you likely will not enjoy the final product. Here is why:

1) The salt called for is 48.0g this is about 5% salt to 2 pounds meat. Should not be more than 1.5-3%.
2) sugar listed is 45g or about 5% this is way over the top especially after you add molasses.
3) recipe calls for 6g of cure. To 2 pound meat that is about .65% cure. (This can be hazardous to your health) The cure should not exceed .25% for short cure meats. 

Id start with the right amounts of ingredients and scratch that recipe.


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## thirdeye (Mar 25, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> I like Poli’s recipes usually. This recipe should not use cure #2.


Or 48 grams of salt for a 2# roast.



jlpicard said:


> Here's the ingredients I'ma just substitute #1
> 2 lb. Pork shoulder butt 910.0 g
> 1/3 cup Un-sulfured molasses  75.0 ml 1/4 cup *Kosher salt  48.0 g*
> 3/4 cup Brown sugar, dark, packed 45.0 g 2 Tbs. Liquid smoke
> ...


I can't comment on the molasses, but I'd re-think the salt amount pus the amount of Cure #1 is too high.


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Salt is in there. Yeah I'm going to nix that recipe.


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

I plugged 910 gm of meat into cure calculator it says 2.27 gm.  Wow that recipe is off.  So with that corrected if I half the salt and half the sugars..?


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## thirdeye (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> I plugged 910 gm of meat into cure calculator it says 2.27 gm.  Wow that recipe is off.  So with that corrected if I half the salt and half the sugars..?



We all have our personal choices for flavor and saltiness. Here are the ranges I'm comfortable with:

Salt - The recommended range of salt is between 1% and 3%. I use canning salt, but sea salt or kosher salt works fine.  Do not use iodized table salt.
Sugar - The recommended range of sugar is between 0% and 3%.  You don't actually need sugar in your cure, but it mellows the salt and adds flavor as well as color.  A higher percentage of sugar will increase chances of your bacon burning when frying.
Cure #1 - The amount of Cure #1 is set by the USDA at 0.25%.  Do not increase or decrease this amount, and always measure Cure #1 carefully and accurately.
Adding onion and garlic powder is fine, but I've never measured either, just eyeballed the amount.  I generally add some cracked pepper, partially for looks but it brings some flavor to the party.  And like I said above, I've never used molasses. I have experimented with adding maple syrup in the bag, as an injection and brushing on while smoking.  I've never added liquid smoke either.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> I plugged 910 gm of meat into cure calculator it says 2.27 gm.  Wow that recipe is off.  So with that corrected if I half the salt and half the sugars..?


Thirdeye has you covered and his post above is in line with my tastes as well.

If you leave the meat at 2 pounds and then cut everything else in the recipe by half, you would have a workable recipe that would be at the top end salt and sugars wise. It would roughly be 2.5% each salt and sugar. Like said above also don’t change the cure 1 from .25% (default amount in most cure calculators) this amount does not change.

My personal preference for bacon is
1.5% sea salt
.5 to .75% sugars (bacon won’t burn in pan)
.25% cure 1
(Combined salt of cure and regular salt is 1.75%. If you plug in 1.75% salt in the calculator it will automatically allow for the salt in the cure 1)
I eyeball with granulated garlic and white pepper.


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> Thirdeye has you covered and his post above is in line with my tastes as well.
> 
> If you leave the meat at 2 pounds and then cut everything else in the recipe by half, you would have a workable recipe that would be at the top end salt and sugars wise. It would roughly be 2.5% each salt and sugar. Like said above also don’t change the cure 1 from .25% (default amount in most cure calculators) this amount does not change.
> 
> ...


Why white?  Flavor and/or color?


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Why white?  Flavor and/or color?


Do you guys consider that original recipe I posted a dry cure?  I just noticed there's no mention of water.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Why white?  Flavor and/or color?


For me, black pepper doesn’t stay on the meat that well and is more mild in flavor than white pepper. The white that I use is ground very fine like a powder, this helps it stay on the meat better and produces a better pepper flavor in the finished product.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 25, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Do you guys consider that original recipe I posted a dry cure?  I just noticed there's no mention of water.


I would say semi-dry just because of the molasses, but yes the basic recipe is a dry cure. This produces a better bacon flavor to me than wet cured where meat actually takes on water/moisture and dilutes the meat flavor a little, at least to me.

With my dry rubbed bacon I don’t even bag it anymore. I place in on a rack in the fridge with a pan underneath to catch the moisture that is extracted. This process dries down the meat just a bit and concentrates the flavors. When done curing I don’t rinse either because I apply the percentage of salt, sugar, cure and spices I want the meat to finish with. My pellicule is already formed and I go straight to the smokehouse.


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## jlpicard (Mar 25, 2022)

Oh I am going to try that.  I have a small dorm fridge so it won't take on any odors.  Ill rig up some ss racks.


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## jlpicard (Mar 26, 2022)

Pork is ,1885 gm
Salt , 32 gm
Sugar combined ,14 gm
Cure #1, 6 gm

Sound right?  I used https://www.localfoodheroes.com/cal...3&sevenprod=0&sixprod=1.03675&totalprod=57.96
Pork is 1885 gm


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## thirdeye (Mar 26, 2022)

I come up with 4.7 grams of Cure #1.   I'm guessing the calculator you selected is basing the cure on 200 ppm, which is the top end limit for belly bacon.  Using 156 ppm gives you a safety net. 

0.25% is the amount of Cure #1 to shoot for.  Here is how that's done:  1.885 kg X 2.5 g/kg = *4.71 g* of Cure #1 needed.


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## SmokinEdge (Mar 26, 2022)

thirdeye said:


> I come up with 4.7 grams of Cure #1.   I'm guessing the calculator you selected is basing the cure on 200 ppm, which is the top end limit for belly bacon.  Using 156 ppm gives you a safety net.
> 
> 0.25% is the amount of Cure #1 to shoot for.  Here is how that's done:  1.885 kg X 2.5 g/kg = *4.71 g* of Cure #1 needed.


1885 X .0025 = 4.71g cure #1


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## thirdeye (Mar 26, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> 1885 X .0025 = 4.71g cure #1


Yes, there's more than one way to fall off a horse.   

I mainly like the former (2.5 g/kg) method because some people read "0.25%" then *don't comprehend*   the ".0025" multiplier and get confused. The most common error is moving only one decimal point and using ".025" as the multiplier, which results in the answer of 47.1g.


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## staticgenerator (Apr 1, 2022)

jlpicard said:


> Well marianski says #2 is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon because of the nitrates. I also read about tender quick which I have never used but it seems to have nitrate also.







SmokinEdge said:


> This is correct. USDA has banned the use of nitrate in conventional bacon, sort of. Technically you can’t use nitrate but all the “uncured” bacon on store shelves is in fact cured with celery powder which is high in nitrates. They just are not classified as a curing agent by the USDA, so the product is labeled “uncured” even though the bacon is perfectly cured “pink” in color.





This keeps coming up. I’ve used Morton’s Tender Quick in the past for bacon, and according to their recipe guide (even the latest “Canadian Bacon” recipe on their website) they state to dry cure for 3-5 days mortonsalt.com/article/meat-curing-canadian-bacon/



If the USDA has banned the use of nitrates other than extended curing over 40 days, how can this company still promote it’s use for anything else? I wonder if such a small amount of nitrates is as bad as they say. Maybe a discussion on MTQ should be pinned to the top of the forum?



Regardless, for those interested, here the actual breakdowns of nitrates and nitrites for a recipe like dry cure bacon when using MTQ compared to cure #1 alone (calculator for cure #1 from diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html)


Grams To cure 1 pound (453.6 grams) of meatMorton's Tender Quick (1TB)Cure # 1 (156 ppm) 2% saltCure #10.0350.070625Cure #20.0350Salt5.368Sugar8.574.5Total grams1412.57

So it appears that MTQ splits the amount of nitrate and nitrite approximately in half compared to curing with nitrite alone.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 1, 2022)

staticgenerator said:


> This keeps coming up. I’ve used Morton’s Tender Quick in the past for bacon, and according to their recipe guide (even the latest “Canadian Bacon” recipe on their website) they state to dry cure for 3-5 days mortonsalt.com/article/meat-curing-canadian-bacon/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Morton’s TQ contains salt, sugar 0.5% nitrate and 0.5% nitrite. The cure is designed as an all in one cure mix, much like Peklosol is in Europe (0.6% nitrite, 99.4% salt) so applied at 2% of meat weight you will have about 120ppm nitrite, applied at 2.5% (salt) you would have 150ppm nitrite. With these products you can’t over do the nitrite without making the meat to salty to eat. This European style of curing salt is where Mortons TQ was born, they just added a little sugar and .5% nitrate.

On Mortons web site, they do not recommend their product for the production of bacon. That’s CYA from the USDA regulations of no nitrates in bacon, TQ as a product predates the current regulations.


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## staticgenerator (Apr 1, 2022)

OP states recipe calls for cure #2 (correct)
Users reply that no nitrate needed in cures < 40 days (correct)
OP replies with concern that MTQ contains nitrate for shorter cure (correct)
Morton’s website recommends MTQ for cures 3-5 days (correct)

Conclusion: I am addressing the OPs (unaddressed) point that MTQ contains nitrates for shorter cures. I don’t use MTQ and I don’t recommend it. It should not be used because nitrates are not needed in cures < 40 days. Others can do their own research and decide.


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 1, 2022)

staticgenerator said:


> OP states recipe calls for cure #2 (correct)
> Users reply that no nitrate needed in cures < 40 days (correct)
> OP replies with concern that MTQ contains nitrate for shorter cure (correct)
> Morton’s website recommends MTQ for cures 3-5 days (correct)
> ...


You are largely correct.
Nitrate is broken down to nitrite, like a time capsule for a continued supply of nitrite.

Can you explain how and why nitrate is converted to nitrite? This is very important as to why not to use or to use. The process is specific.


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## staticgenerator (Apr 2, 2022)

SmokinEdge said:


> Can you explain how and why nitrate is converted to nitrite? This is very important as to why not to use or to use. The process is specific.


Here’s what I found on Lapoli’s website:

*In reality, the nitrate, to be useful in curing, must be converted to nitrite...this is accomplished by bacteria (Micrococcus, for example) present in the meat paste. Nitrite is used up quickly in the curing process so a mixture of nitrate and nitrite is added to dry-cured meats to ensure a supply of nitrite in the later stages of maturation. In addition it keeps the meat an appealing red color. Nitrite reacts with myoglobin and is an essential for the development of characteristic red color in preserved meats.  It is quickly used up so another sodium compound (nitrate) is added along with the nitrite.  An enzymatic reaction (caused by nitratereductase) converts nitrate to nitrite. The reductase is produce by a common bacterium (Micrococcus) found in the meat or the bacteria may be added during production.






						Introduction to Making Salami
					






					lpoli.50webs.com
				



*
This isn’t a very thorough explanation, but it’s a good intro. As I understand it, more nitrates are needed during a dry cure process, especially one where the product will have reduced moisture, sit on a shelf at room temperature, and is ready to eat without cooking. The nitrates act as a reserve source of nitrites that will be used later.

In any case, I’m just a novice. Lapoli’s website has largely been my go to for all things cured. He’s taken a lot of home cured processing and modernized it, making things as safe as it possibly can be. I’ve tried  some dried cured meats through this source, and while I’m not totally happy with the results, I’ve been able to proceed with confidence.

Happy and safe curing, smoking and most of all: eating!


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## SmokinEdge (Apr 2, 2022)

The key here is enzymatic reduction. Meaning the enzyme must be present and must be in a temperature range where it’s active (above 50*F) Otherwise the nitrate will not convert to nitrite.

Nitrate does not cure meat directly! Nitrite cures meat directly and at any temperature above freezing.


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