# Soy Protein or Dry Milk?



## darwin101

Hi all,

I see in several sausage recipes that use of Soy Protein Concentrate or dry milk powder.  Does this really help and should I get some?   I will be focusing on smoked sausage for now and the advertisement says this is where the Soy Protein Concentrate is needed.  I made #5 of Andouille this weekend and I am basically happy with my product, just need to up the spices and add more smoke.

thanks in advance!


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## rod g15

I'm no expert, but from what I've learned you add soy protein conc. or non-fat dried milk to the mixture to bind the water in the mix so you dont loose it in the smoking process thus getting a dried out product. This is only for ground meat you are curing then smoking. I'm using 1 cup of dried milk in 10# of meat when I do Andouille as soon as the weather warms up enough to use the smoker. 

Kind of a late reply, hope it helps,

Rod


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## reinhard

Not everyone uses it. However i do.  On smoked sausages i use one cup per 5 pounds of mix. This has always worked for me as i learned this when i was in the buisness and now retired.  You say you were happy with what you made but only need to tweek spices and adjust smoke. So you may have used a lean to fat ratio that turned out great without it.  The ratio of powder'd milk to the sausage mix can vary depending on the fat to lean ratio. The more fat, the more binder or powder'd milk in my opinion.  These binders absorb excess moisture and reduces shrinkage, giving you a better texture and form to your link or fibrous casing for summer sausage for example.  Reinhard


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## darwin101

My first batch was a #7 pork butt.  I removed the bone and the bits that I did not think should be included. (thin lacy-slimy fatty tissue)   Stupid me did not weigh the final product to be ground and I used spices for a #5 recipe plus a few extras, but not enough. Even worse I did not cook off a sample before I stuffed the sausage, so all of that is on me. I smoked the links for nearly 6 hours in a cool/warm kettle, then in the oven to get the internal temp of 150.  Anyway the mix was on the lean side and needed more spice and smoke, still much better than anything in the stores. To be honest it was not a true Andouille that I grew up with, it looked a bit more like a kielbasa.  

I got a small amount of Soy Protein Isolate and will give it a try to see for myself, who knows I might like it.  I do remember a few French chefs that I worked with using DMP in pates and terrines and a few that would not use it...  so I guess it all comes down to using ingredients to do the job required and personal preferences. 

The next batch will be to try and achieve a traditional Cajun smoked sausage.  These will be beef & pork - heavily smoked and much drier than normal sausage.  I won't be using the Soy or DMP on these.

Thanks guys for the input, I trust y'all more than a product advertisement!


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## boykjo

Its a matter of preference... I dont use it


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## daveomak

Darwin101 said:


> Hi all,
> I see in several sausage recipes that use of Soy Protein Concentrate or dry milk powder.  Does this really help and should I get some?   I will be focusing on smoked sausage for now and the advertisement says this is where the Soy Protein Concentrate is needed.  I made #5 of Andouille this weekend and I am basically happy with my product, just need to up the spices and add more smoke.
> 
> thanks in advance!



SPC and DMP have a similar effect of the finished product.....   I have used SPC at 1.5%...  half the max rate...   I think it is a commercial additive to add more profit margin vs. original "old world" recipes...  
I'm leaning toward not using bulking additives...  I think the sausage may be drier as the fat content will not have a binder to attach to, which keeps the sausage moist.....
Like boykjo said.... personal preference .... I think mixing the meat very well until you get that "sticky" meat mass is important when it comes to moist sausage also...


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## mdboatbum

I use dry milk powder in sausage because for me it makes much juicier sausage. Not being experienced at sausage making, my first few attempts were disappointing at best. While the flavor was good, the cooking process would squeeze all the moisture out leaving me with dry, mealy, crumbly sausage. This would happen no matter what method I used for cooking them, poaching, pan frying and even smoking at 225˚. I read about using the milk powder as a binder, tried a cup to a 5# batch and have used it ever since. It made a HUGE difference in the texture.

The ratio I've settled on is very simple and works for whatever sausage I'm making:

5lbs pork butt

a 1lb. package of fatback, from which I remove the skin, leaving probably 12oz.

1 cup dry milk powder

Whatever seasonings the recipe calls for.

My guess is this makes for a 25%-30% fat to lean ratio and while not exactly diet friendly, tastes pretty good. By the way, I've only made fresh sausages, haven't tried anything cured or dried.


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## reinhard

Mdboatbum--you will find the binders more important in smoked than in fresh. I said before that not everyone uses binders in sausage. I agree it's personal preference. The number one rule in sausage and most important factor in making is being happy with what your making.  When i was working as a butcher early on i cant remember what was used for binders. It looked more like bread crumbs that were very fine.  Man, that was 42 years ago now. Been retired since 2007.  They used that stuff for everything and everything sold well. That was a smaller meat market when i started out and binder was used as a profit booster and that's still true to this day.

As years went on i never seen binders not used.  Keep in mind that was sausage made for sale not like us that make it at home because we enjoy everything that comes with it.  If someone feels that there is something missing in the sausage they make i would say try a binder. Start out with 1 cup per 5 pounds.  Make a small batch of sausage like 5 pounds or 10 and see it makes a difference for you.  It is all about personal preference in the end.  Reinhard


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## foamheart

What a great thread! So informative! I being ignorant had assumed that the dextrose was a item required to make Brats because nearly everyone I had seen used some type of dextrose in their Brats. I thought I was so smart figuring out that the common form on the grocery store's shelf was powdered milk. I hate that word, assume, it always gets me in trouble. So its basically an absorbent gel, and I am guessing (I didn't use assuming there), that it also holds the rendered fat as well as water.

Such a revelation and I am only on my second cup of coffee this morning. WoW!


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## daveomak

Foamheart said:


> What a great thread! So informative! I being ignorant had assumed that the dextrose was a item required to make Brats because nearly everyone I had seen used some type of dextrose in their Brats. I thought I was so smart figuring out that the common form on the grocery store's shelf was powdered milk. I hate that word, assume, it always gets me in trouble. So its basically an absorbent gel, and I am guessing (I didn't use assuming there), that it also holds the rendered fat as well as water.
> 
> Such a revelation and I am only on my second cup of coffee this morning. WoW!




Add some of your "Pear Schnapps"....  I would iffin I had some...


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## foamheart

DaveOmak said:


> Add some of your "Pear Schnapps".... I would iffin I had some...


 Really? That's sounds really strange Dave. Pear Kielbasa? Apple Andouille? Peach Pepperoni?


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## reinhard

A few recipe's call for wine, that snaps would be interesting to use [and take a nip from on the side] seriously. i would use it in a small batch of fresh brats maby [5 pounds or so], cant hurt a thing. Maby apple snapps or brats. Reinhard


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## danbono

Mdboatbum said:


> I use dry milk powder in sausage because for me it makes much juicier sausage. Not being experienced at sausage making, my first few attempts were disappointing at best. While the flavor was good, the cooking process would squeeze all the moisture out leaving me with dry, mealy, crumbly sausage. This would happen no matter what method I used for cooking them, poaching, pan frying and even smoking at 225˚. I read about using the milk powder as a binder, tried a cup to a 5# batch and have used it ever since. It made a HUGE difference in the texture.
> 
> The ratio I've settled on is very simple and works for whatever sausage I'm making:
> 
> 5lbs pork butt
> 
> a 1lb. package of fatback, from which I remove the skin, leaving probably 12oz.
> 
> 1 cup dry milk powder
> 
> Whatever seasonings the recipe calls for.
> 
> My guess is this makes for a 25%-30% fat to lean ratio and while not exactly diet friendly, tastes pretty good. By the way, I've only made fresh sausages, haven't tried anything cured or dried.


Hi All I'm having the same problem with my hot cooked sausage, that I make..Comes out dry and crumbly at times. I've tried using the   soy protein conc, with pretty much the same results.

next time I will give the NFDM a try, 1 cup for 5 lbs?

Thanks Dan

PS I LOVE sausage.


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## reinhard

Also use the proper amount of water/beer for the sausage you make along with the powdered milk.  I use around 5 1/2 cups of cold water per 25 pounds of sausage mix for smoked polish or summer and 1 cup of powdered milk per 5 pounds of sausage mix.  Reinhard


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## rtbbq2

I use SPC at about  1/2 the rate in the recipe. I does a nice job as a binder. I think it gives the sausage a nice consistency too....RTB..


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## danbono

HI All Will the NFDM make my sausage juicier??? I do have a good fat to meat ratio, useing Boston Butts.

Thanks Dan


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## reinhard

If you have the right fat to lean ratio the binder should help you retain the moisture along with the proper amount of cold water added depending what your are going to make. Reinhard


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## daveomak

Foamheart said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add some of your "Pear Schnapps".... I would iffin I had some...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? That's sounds really strange Dave. Pear Kielbasa? Apple Andouille? Peach Pepperoni?
Click to expand...



NO------- in your second cup of coffee......


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## shannon127

Here are a just few of my observations.  Most "dry" sausage is a result of either too high temperatures during smoking, or fat smear during grinding.  There are certainly other contributing factors, mix is too lean, or the sausage was not mixed thoroughly prior to stuffing.  Make sure you have at least 15% fat in the mix for hot smoked sausage, if making cold smoked or fermented sausage you can make it much much leaner.  I make Lebanon Bologna with 97% ground beef and no binders, but it is still very moist.  When you stuff, the sausage should be very sticky.  This indicates you have freed enough proteins for a good bind. 

Make sure to keep your temperatures below 175F when smoking, 170 if a fine grind.  Fat starts to liquify at 130-140F and collagen melts around 160-170.  If much higher you will notice fat sweating from the sausage or pockets of fat develop under the casing.  I prefer to smoke then poach keeping the water temp below 175F.  The other factor I have noticed is fat smear.  One I made a fermented sausage that began to sweat fat at 75F.  Surely the temps were not to hot, so I uncased some and looked at the fat.  Much of the fat was the consistency of Crisco.  I tested my grinder with some pork butt.  Again the fat was smeared.  I sharpened my blade and plate, which fixed the problem.  Not when I grind I make sure the meat is cold, almost freezing if possible and the blade and plate are sharp. 

With all that said, there are times I use Dry Milk powder.  I use it in Summer Sausage and Ring Bologna.  It adds to the flavor and a little sweetness.  The beauty of making your own sausage is that you can make it taste however you desire.


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## aaron mikkelson

Reinhard said:


> Mdboatbum--you will find the binders more important in smoked than in fresh. I said before that not everyone uses binders in sausage. I agree it's personal preference. The number one rule in sausage and most important factor in making is being happy with what your making.  When i was working as a butcher early on i cant remember what was used for binders. It looked more like bread crumbs that were very fine.  Man, that was 42 years ago now. Been retired since 2007.  They used that stuff for everything and everything sold well. That was a smaller meat market when i started out and binder was used as a profit booster and that's still true to this day.
> 
> As years went on i never seen binders not used.  Keep in mind that was sausage made for sale not like us that make it at home because we enjoy everything that comes with it.  If someone feels that there is something missing in the sausage they make i would say try a binder. Start out with 1 cup per 5 pounds.  Make a small batch of sausage like 5 pounds or 10 and see it makes a difference for you.  It is all about personal preference in the end.  Reinhard


holy shit! its rhino, i worked with you at Nicollet a few times. i was a night guy and a wrapper there with Pappas, Rich w. and big paul. I'm a meat cutter now up north.


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## reinhard

Hi Aaron!!! Great to hear from you.  Glad to see you got a job as a meat cutter!!! I'll PM you.  Rino is what I was called at work LOL.  Reinhard.


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## mawil1013

Reinhard said:


> Mdboatbum--you will find the binders more important in smoked than in fresh. I said before that not everyone uses binders in sausage. I agree it's personal preference. The number one rule in sausage and most important factor in making is being happy with what your making.  When i was working as a butcher early on i cant remember what was used for binders. It looked more like bread crumbs that were very fine.  Man, that was 42 years ago now. Been retired since 2007.  They used that stuff for everything and everything sold well. That was a smaller meat market when i started out and binder was used as a profit booster and that's still true to this day.
> 
> As years went on i never seen binders not used.  Keep in mind that was sausage made for sale not like us that make it at home because we enjoy everything that comes with it.  If someone feels that there is something missing in the sausage they make i would say try a binder. Start out with 1 cup per 5 pounds.  Make a small batch of sausage like 5 pounds or 10 and see it makes a difference for you.  It is all about personal preference in the end.  Reinhard


Re: the comment about adding to sausage to increase profit, "binder to increase profit". I'm seeing this more and more. Crass commercial applications being passed around as authentic ways to make artisanal foods!  A thumb on the scale too! Learned the other day about scrambled eggs, the wisdom passed around is add whole milk or cream to scrambled eggs, turns out just another cheater trick by cooks to add cheaper products to fool customer! Back to dried milk, IMHO, if you know what you're doing as in, have the proper fat to meat ratio and the proper way to initially cook the sausage, and then the proper way to heat the sausage prior to serving then you've done your job. I say, take the time to learn how to do it right, the first time, don't be swayed by crass commercial cheater tricks.


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