# First time doing bacon



## chef jay

Hello,

I've never tried bacon, but after reading a bunch of forms I'm dying to do it. I bought a pork belly, about 4 lbs, that I still need to trim. I've frozen it for now because I have one important question (well, maybe not that important). How necessary is it to use something with sodium nitrate? Can I get away with just using kosher salt and sugar? I understand the safety concern on a cold smoke but I've got an offset smoker. Can I do it low enough that I'm not going to melt all the fat but still not worry about having it on there so long that there's a health concern? I'm from Toronto, I've looked at a few stores and I haven't been able to find the Tenderquick. I saw I can order it online but it's $5 to buy and $20 for shipping so that just doesn't make sense to me.

I saw in some of the older posts, those who do it without. The newer posts however seem to all use some form of nitrate additive. Is this a result of better wisdom over time?


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## fpnmf

Some of us use nitrite...and yes it is important..

You might want to read a bunch of info before you jump in the pool...

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

http://www.butcher-packer.com/  

http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax  

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/109368/more-easy-made-bacon-with-q-view#post_666451  

  Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## meateater

First off I wouldn't trim the belly unless your talking about the skin, that I would trim off and make some cracklins, good stuff. Products like Tenderquick contain sodium nitrite and a small amount of sodium nitrate and is made for the exact purpose of curing bacon. Another option is using cure #1 aka pink salt. This is just a cure only without other additives like Tenderquick. I cannot find TQ in my area without having to pay shipping but can get cure #1 at Bass Pro locally so that's my choice. I would like to try TQ someday, anywhoo no matter what you use it's very important that you follow the MFG's directions to the letter, never use more that the recommended amount.


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## venture

People made bacon with salt for hundreds of years.  Today we would call that salt pork of one form or another.  In the old days salt was often "adulterated" with nitrites and nitrates.  Fortunately that saved many lives while many people died from eating salt only products produced in the wrong areas or by incorrect methods.

We now use nitrites and sometimes nitrates very carefully in making bacon, ham, some sausages. I am not saying that salt and sugar cures cannot be used, but they need to be handled very carefully.  Do your study. Peoples' lives are in your hands when you make these products at home.  It is a lot of fun, but food safety must be foremost.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## pops6927

"Back in Ye olde days...." ... you could cure with salts and sugars, and then smoke at a low temp for many hours/days/weeks/even months.  The burning of wood smoldering under the meat gave off nitrosamines that provided a natural curing agent that preserved the meat.  Ever seen a smoke ring?  That's it.  Cured meat via a 'natural' nitrite additive, even though no nitrite chemical was added to the dry or wet cure.   

In "Modern Day" we have learned that you can add a nitrite additive to your curing to make sure the meat is preserved properly without depending on nature, fire, humidity, draft, type, temperature, time, plus many other variables that determine if the finished product is wholesome or poisonous.  A small amount of nitrite in the proper volume added under controlled circumstances gives great, consistent, planned results.  And, eliminates the weeks of smoking too.  There is more nitrite in a bowl of fresh spinach than what you add to a whole belly, and you never want to give up your salad, do you?  

Using cure #1 or Tenderquick, in the correct amounts, protects you and all other consumers of your products from disease and death.  The chances you take without it are far greater risk, and in the end it is formed in your smoked meat anyways.  Please join us in responsible curing and smoking!


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## meateater

Pops6927 said:


> "Back in Ye olde days...." ... you could cure with salts and sugars, and then smoke at a low temp for many hours/days/weeks/even months.  The burning of wood smoldering under the meat gave off nitrosamines that provided a natural curing agent that preserved the meat.  Ever seen a smoke ring?  That's it.  Cured meat via a 'natural' nitrite additive, even though no nitrite chemical was added to the dry or wet cure.
> 
> In "Modern Day" we have learned that you can add a nitrite additive to your curing to make sure the meat is preserved properly without depending on nature, fire, humidity, draft, type, temperature, time, plus many other variables that determine if the finished product is wholesome or poisonous.  A small amount of nitrite in the proper volume added under controlled circumstances gives great, consistent, planned results.  And, eliminates the weeks of smoking too.  There is more nitrite in a bowl of fresh spinach than what you add to a whole belly, and you never want to give up your salad, do you?
> 
> Using cure #1 or Tenderquick, in the correct amounts, protects you and all other consumers of your products from disease and death.  The chances you take without it are far greater risk, and in the end it is formed in your smoked meat anyways.  Please join us in responsible curing and smoking!


So why isn't that practice still followed today, curious minds want to know? This is a serious question.


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## meateater

Chef Jay said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've never tried bacon, but after reading a bunch of forms I'm dying to do it. I bought a pork belly, about 4 lbs, that I still need to trim. I've frozen it for now because I have one important question (well, maybe not that important). How necessary is it to use something with sodium nitrate? Can I get away with just using kosher salt and sugar? I understand the safety concern on a cold smoke but I've got an offset smoker. Can I do it low enough that I'm not going to melt all the fat but still not worry about having it on there so long that there's a health concern? I'm from Toronto, I've looked at a few stores and I haven't been able to find the Tenderquick. I saw I can order it online but it's $5 to buy and $20 for shipping so that just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I saw in some of the older posts, those who do it without. The newer posts however seem to all use some form of nitrate additive. Is this a result of better wisdom over time?


I'm trying to give you a simple and often practiced recipe here, sorry for the


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## SmokinAl

Glad to have you with us!


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## exhaustedspark

Chef Jay said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've never tried bacon, but after reading a bunch of forms I'm dying to do it. I bought a pork belly, about 4 lbs, that I still need to trim. I've frozen it for now because I have one important question (well, maybe not that important). How necessary is it to use something with sodium nitrate? Can I get away with just using kosher salt and sugar? I understand the safety concern on a cold smoke but I've got an offset smoker. Can I do it low enough that I'm not going to melt all the fat but still not worry about having it on there so long that there's a health concern? I'm from Toronto, I've looked at a few stores and I haven't been able to find the Tenderquick. I saw I can order it online but it's $5 to buy and $20 for shipping so that just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I saw in some of the older posts, those who do it without. The newer posts however seem to all use some form of nitrate additive. Is this a result of better wisdom over time?







It is not necessary to use nitrates at all for bacon. If you go to the supermarkets you will find it all the time. You still must follow healthy guidelines for doing so and from what i can see it is even easier than cured bacon.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Karl


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## Bearcarver

I must agree with Pops, Meateater, Craig & Venture on the curing.

The only thing I might add is if you don't want to use cure on your Belly, I would make sure you go from 40˚ to 135˚ in no longer than 4 hours, just like we smoke any other piece of whole pork that isn't cured.

It might not taste like Bacon, but it will still be tasty (IMO)!!

Bear


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## exhaustedspark

Here is the U.S.D.A. Answer.

Can bacon be make without the use of nitrite?

Bacon can be manufactured without the use of nitrite, but must be labeled "uncured bacon, No nitrates or nitrites added" and bear the statement "not preserved, Keep Refrigerated below 40* F at all times"- unless the final product has been dried according to USDA regulations, or if the product contains and amount of salt sufficient to achieve an internal brine concentration of 10% or more, the label does not have to carry the handle statement of not preserved keep refrigerated below  etc etc

Recent research studies have shown for products labeled as uncured, certain ingredients added during formulation can naturally produce small amounts of nitrates in  bacon and therefore have to be labeled with the explanatory statement no nitrates or nitrites added except for those naturally occurring in ingredients such as celery juice powder, parsley cherry powder, beet powder, spinach, sea salt etc,\
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





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Have fun and enjoy. I cannot tell the diff for cured or uncured. Saalllll good.

and USDA approved.

Karl


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## chef jay

Thanks for the feedback, I will continue my search.


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## tjohnson

"Uncured Bacon" is not bacon, it's "Pork Belly" that may or may not be smoked

Curing and smoking the pork belly makes it bacon.

It's risky at best to take a chance on smoking uncured bacon.  You'll have to hit 140° in 4 hours or less, and then what you'll end up with is "Cooked & Smoked  Pork Belly", not bacon.

Be Safe!

Todd


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## pops6927

meateater said:


> So why isn't that practice still followed today, curious minds want to know? This is a serious question.


Money, of course!  The longer it takes to produce something the less profitable it is (and likewise the reverse).


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## tjohnson

I'll bet you the "Uncured Bacon" found at the supermarket costs more than "Cured Bacon"

It's all about marketing and how these companies can sell more products to customers

Kinda like buying something that's "Organic".  You pay more for the label.

If you go the a local butcher and ask for "Uncured Bacon", he'll sell you a "Smoked Pork Belly".

An old friend of mine tells stories of smoking hams for 2 weeks, hanging from the rafters in the grainery and then filling up the grainery.  The outside would get green  and they would trim it off before eating.  I also believe the used "Saltpeter" to cure.

TJ


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## fpnmf

Hey Todd!!

Read this...http://ruhlman.com/2011/05/the-no-nitrites-added-hoax/  

 Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## tjohnson

This is an article for everyone to read!!!

Don't let marketing overpower your common sense!

Following the manufacturer's instructions for curing meat is not only safe, but make good sense.

Todd


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## exhaustedspark

Actually the buy is dead wrong on the article. It is not a marketing ploy it is the law they have to label it as such. USDA Law.

Karl


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## tjohnson

Karl,

Marketers try all different angles to sell us products.

If they can fool you by "Misleading" you, they win.

The ad reads "No Nitrites* or Nitrates Added" in Big Bold Red Ink.

The asterisk reads "Except for the naturally occurring nitrites in celery powder", in very subtle green ink.

The producer does not add extra nitrates or nitrates, but they add "Celery Powder".....

Why, if it we not for the Nitrites?

Does "Celery Powder" add extra flavor?  I don't really think so.

Also look at additional "Misleading" information on label

"15 slices inside"

"Equivalent to 12 ounces of uncooked bacon"

Net Wt. = 3.25 OZ.(92g)

How many people think they are getting more than the actual 3.25 OZ they're paying for?







Todd


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## exhaustedspark

I know about the marketing as such but the label on the package about no nitrates or nitrites etc are there not for marketing reasons. If you read the pdf regarding the rules for their pkg thy have to put that on there so we know it is not cured. The USDA uses the same exact wording and by law the manufactures have no choice in the matter.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/PDF/Bacon_and_Food_Safety.pdf

Karl


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## tjohnson

[h3]From the producer's website[/h3][h3] [/h3][h3]What's the difference between Cured and Uncured Meats? [/h3]
Cured products contain sodium nitrite and/or sodium nitrate, which are used to cure and preserve meat. Nitrates occur naturally in many foods; in fact, you might be surprised to discover that nitrates occur naturally in all plants. The amount of nitrates and nitrites you ingest when eating cured products is negligible and does not pose any health risk. Some consumers prefer cured meats, while others prefer to avoid added sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, so Niman Ranch offers both alternatives in our product line. The idea to cure meat began with a need to keep meat from spoiling. Salt, and saltpeter, the natural form of potassium nitrate, have been used as preservatives for centuries. During modern times, pink salt has become the preferred medium for curing and preserving meats, because it contains a standardized amount of sodium nitrite and is easy to control in processing. Use of nitrites and nitrates in the production of cured meats is now carefully regulated, with concentration not to exceed 200 parts per million in finished products. Their use is invaluable in inhibiting growth of microorganisms such as botulism. Additionally, nitrates and nitrites help meat to retain its pink color and add depth and complexity of flavor, contributing characteristic aroma and flavor notes that make bacon, ham and other cured meats taste so good. In the United States, meat products are regulated by the United States Department of Agriculture. The USDA defines uncured to indicate products that have not been preserved by adding sodium nitrite, sodium nitrate or a salt cure. So when you see uncured on the label, the label is informing you that the product does not contain added sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite. Despite USDA regulations, it's probably more accurate to say that uncured products are naturally cured. Instead of adding nitrate or nitrite chemicals, we use celery juice, a source of naturally occurring nitrates. During processing, the nitrates in celery juice are consumed by lacto bacteria--anaerobic organisms similar to the friendly bacteria in yogurt--that like a salty environment. Over time during the natural curing process, the nitrate in celery juice is consumed by the lacto bacteria and converted first to nitrite, then to nitrous oxide, a gas that dissipates into the atmosphere. The amount of natural nitrates remaining in the finished product depends on whether and when the meat is cooked, as cooking halts the dissipation process. Like cured products, natural curing inhibits bacteria, helps prevent meat from going off-color, and deepens flavor. Whether you choose cured or uncured Niman Ranch products, you can be sure you are receiving the best in quality.


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## exhaustedspark

I am very curious to know why the manufactures are told to put that label on the pkg if in fact celery juice powder is indeed nitrite, or converts to nitrite.

Here is what the sausagemaker says in there catalog.

Celery juice powder

The is what so many of you have been asking for...a natural cure

substitute to sodium or potassium nitrite, that has the same capabilities

and curing properties. Celery juice powder is specially processed to be used as a natural nitrate, which breaks down to nitrite, curing the sausage from botulism. Without effecting the final taste of a particular recipe, this ingredient does the job of a basic salt/nitrite cure and is fast/becoming a meat processing phenomena! Makes 25 lbs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What i do not understand is why it would be call uncured if indeed it is a substitute??

Karl


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## venture

I would think the processors would want to state that no nitrates/nitrites were added.  It makes the product sound more healthy even though they effectively added the curing agent when they added the celery powder.  That would just be good, if misleading, marketing.

Why do they say no sugar added when they can a fruit that is naturally loaded with sugar?  Just seems like marketing to me?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## exhaustedspark

Don't get me wrong i also believe that the label is misinforming however it is what the law says they have to do. That was my only point.

If this celery is like The sausage maker says i wonder what the negative effects on the body will be. Now and for years past the powers that be have been cutting down the amount of nitrites that are used and are still looking for a product to ban nitrites entirely. At least that is how i read in rytek kutas book. The good out weighed the bad etc. Food poisoning and such.

Karl


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## exhaustedspark

Venture said:


> I would think the processors would want to state that no nitrates/nitrites were added.  It makes the product sound more healthy even though they effectively added the curing agent when they added the celery powder.  That would just be good, if misleading, marketing.
> 
> Why do they say no sugar added when they can a fruit that is naturally loaded with sugar?  Just seems like marketing to me?
> 
> Good luck and good smoking.


Your right it does sound like a play on words but as the pdf i posted above states it is something the USDA demands.

Go figure

Karl


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## exhaustedspark

meateater said:


> So why isn't that practice still followed today, curious minds want to know? This is a serious question.


Some of the sausage making books i read all say the same thing. In the Good old days everybody died of natural causes so not much thought went in to it. After all the guy was damn near 50 when he was called home to the cattle ranch in the sky. How old did he want to live anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  Now they tell you exactly how and why and when etc etc,

Karl


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## exhaustedspark

While discussing the packaging and use of nitrates etc, and reading up on celery juice powder i got to chuckling. Imagine if you will the tree hugging don't use nitrites and don't BBQ your meat individuals running his celery through the juice maker while typing out the evils of using nitrites.

Just thought that was funny.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Karl


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## alblancher

Couldn't get the link to work
https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/e/e6/e6acd54d_wp_001_2007_Natural_Organic_Cured_Meat1.pdf
Maybe the file will open this way


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## exhaustedspark

alblancher said:


> Couldn't get the link to work
> https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/e/e6/e6acd54d_wp_001_2007_Natural_Organic_Cured_Meat1.pdf
> Maybe the file will open this way


Interesting Read. Thanks for posting.

Karl


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## tjohnson

From the PDF:

Nevertheless, these results
suggest that: 1) there is wide variation among the natural and
organic processed meats that simulate conventionally cured products,
and 2) a large majority of natural and organic processed
meats demonstrate typical cured meat properties, including cured
color, flavor and significant concentrations of residual nitrite and
nitrate. Thus, it is clear that nitrite and nitrate are being introduced
to most of these products indirectly as components of other
ingredients.

Very interesting reading.....Boring, but interesting!

It seems that in some shape, way or form, producers find a way to claim "Natural", to get consumers to think they are buying a product without nitrates or nitrites.

Maybe producers should be forced to state the amount of residual nitrites & nitrates on the label, rather than claim "Natural" or "Organic"

Todd


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## chadinclw

Bottom line is if you don't use cure the bacon will be a different color, texture, and taste. It'll be "different". If you don't want to use TQ or cure #1 that's fine - but there is nothing to actually replace it to get American style cured bacon.

But, salt pork has a certain appeal to some. My Dad used to slice off a piece of salt pork and fry it up when he needed a mainline pork fix.

As always, this is my opinion based upon my experience and your mileage may vary!


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## alblancher

There is no difference between a chemical produced in a lab or produced in a living organism.  I can make vitamin C in a laboratory or extract it from any number of sources including rose hips, orange juice the list goes on.  It's all the extra stuff that comes with it.  Whole oranges are a better source of Vitamin C then orange juice simply because they also provides fiber.  Oranges and Orange juice are better sources of Vitamin C then a tablet because they provide a wide variety of nutrients and carbohydrates.  If you want all that extra stuff.  I try to keep my sugar down so I take multivitamins and stay away from the fruit juices. 

The terms Natural and Organic are important when considering all the other stuff that goes into the process.  I would think nitrites and nitrates from celery juice or powder carries more "extra chemicals" then the chemicals purified by mechanical methods.  If all you need is the nitrite, do you want all the other stuff from the celery powder?

We have lost our way using these terms.  I think "hormone free", "pesticide free",  "no dyes or stabilizers" are important.  Organic and Natural are just ways for manufacturers to take the intent of a law and bend it to fit their marketing and profit strategy. 

I enjoyed reading this Thread,  good job guys.

Al


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## tjohnson

Well Said!

It just amazes me how manufacturers and producers S-T-R-E-T-C-H the definition of "Organic" or "Natural"

Organic grown spinach was a source of Ecoli a while back, so no method of producing food is 100% immune from bacteria and disease.

The key is to know as much about your food as possible and be responsible for your own food.

I buy meat from a local farmer and buy as many vegetables as we can from the Farmer's Market.

If you don't like nitrites or nitrates, don't buy or make food containing them.

Even though there are food scares once and a while, the U.S. still has some of the safest food in the world.

TJ


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## mballi3011

I agree with anything that Al and Pops says Period. With that said I do think that you should use a processed cure for the ease of it. Then you can see if you like the home made version of bacon. I have been making it for years now and we don't buy any bacons from the store to eat like with eggs and stuff. Now I do buy thin and cheap bacon for ABT's and Fattie's but thats the only way I use stor bought bacons.


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## alblancher

Since I started making my own bacon a couple of years ago home cured bacon is all I will eat or serve to my friends.  No comparison.  Do it with the proper amounts of cure, using a reliable procedure, be clean and aware of sources of contamination. 

He-he,  Mark I agree with Pops as a definitive source, I still have a lot to learn so I will ask you to question everything I say!  It makes for good conversation, but thanks for the creds!

Mark, why don't you take some time off, get with Jerry and see about catching a ride to SELA ?    We have a good group of friends coming in this year.  I'll guarantee you a comfortable place to lay the noggin down at night.


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## Bearcarver

ChadInClw said:


> Bottom line is if you don't use cure the bacon will be a different color, texture, and taste. It'll be "different". If you don't want to use TQ or cure #1 that's fine - but there is nothing to actually replace it to get American style cured bacon.
> 
> But, salt pork has a certain appeal to some. My Dad used to slice off a piece of salt pork and fry it up when he needed a mainline pork fix.
> 
> As always, this is my opinion based upon my experience and your mileage may vary!


Uh Oh---memory surfacing:

Back in the 60s, my best friend's Dad made me a Sammy.

He was a big, tough, old time, Hungarian, who was a pusher foreman at the Beth Steel Coke Plant, in Hellertown, PA.

He took a 6" X 6" chunk of Salt Pork, made a bunch of slits all over it, shoved pieces of garlic into those slits, and boiled it for I don't know how long (maybe until it turned translucent). Then he'd slice it real thin, and line up the little slices in rows, in a couple of slices of Rye bread. It tasted pretty good, but I haven't had it since---LOL.

BTW: The only thing wrong with making your own Bacon is when you run out. I ran out one time, and I didn't get around to getting a Belly for awhile, so it was NO BACON for awhile, because I will no longer buy bacon from a store.

Bear


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## exhaustedspark

Personally i think it must be the amount of nitrites. I would guess that for you to get enough curing action to call it cured one would have to use a hundred lbs of celery powder. Otherwise why would the Laws of the country tell them they must put uncured on the pkg. I keep reading people say that this is some kind of marketing trick when in fact it is what they are told by big brother they must put it on the label. The sausage maker claims it is a replacement for cure #1 and will do the same thing as Cure #1

The USDA says they must state no nitrites added when by my reading this is not true even if it is in minute amounts.

Every one should read and study before they get in to making cured meats and although i do not think it is a risky as some would portray i can indeed be bad if one does not learn what one is doing.

However back to the original Question about making bacon without cures. I have had bacon with no cure and it tasted just like bacon with cure. And according to the usda yes you can.

The discussion about what is Bacon is another Discussion all together. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Karl


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## alblancher

We all agree if you are going to make bacon without cure it cannot be cold smoked for any length of time.  I think that is the key to good bacon,  hours and hours of slow, sweet smoke.  Now I could cover pork bellies with salt and liquid smoke, maybe inject the liquid smoke like some of the mass produced bacon, probably even come close to something that would be pretty decent covered with Mayo and Tomatoes on two slices of bread.  But I bet you could tell the difference when you slice it and when you eat is as it comes out of the fry pan.

Always good to know different techniques.  I stay away from liquid smoke but I have been known to sneak a little into a pot of red beans when I don't have heavily smoked pork bits.

Like good Scotch  I love my nitrites, in small amounts of course!


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## exhaustedspark

Well lets see. Throw the pig in the fridge with the beer. set at 36* put in the amaze-n for a couple of days NNNNNAAAAAAA  Never mind.

She would probably throw a hissy fit.

More then likely insist that the smoke smell  interferes with here stink in a jar she keeps putting around the place







Karl


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## meateater

ExhaustedSpark said:


> Some of the sausage making books i read all say the same thing. In the Good old days everybody died of natural causes so not much thought went in to it. After all the guy was damn near 50 when he was called home to the cattle ranch in the sky. How old did he want to live anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now they tell you exactly how and why and when etc etc,
> 
> Karl




Wrong post Dude, you made a left instead of a right


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## meateater

alblancher said:


> There is no difference between a chemical produced in a lab or produced in a living organism.  I can make vitamin C in a laboratory or extract it from any number of sources including rose hips, orange juice the list goes on.  It's all the extra stuff that comes with it.  Whole oranges are a better source of Vitamin C then orange juice simply because they also provides fiber.  Oranges and Orange juice are better sources of Vitamin C then a tablet because they provide a wide variety of nutrients and carbohydrates.  If you want all that extra stuff.  I try to keep my sugar down so I take multivitamins and stay away from the fruit juices.
> 
> The terms Natural and Organic are important when considering all the other stuff that goes into the process.  I would think nitrites and nitrates from celery juice or powder carries more "extra chemicals" then the chemicals purified by mechanical methods.  If all you need is the nitrite, do you want all the other stuff from the celery powder?
> 
> We have lost our way using these terms.  I think "hormone free", "pesticide free",  "no dyes or stabilizers" are important.  Organic and Natural are just ways for manufacturers to take the intent of a law and bend it to fit their marketing and profit strategy.
> 
> I enjoyed reading this Thread,  good job guys.
> 
> Al


Your a plethora of knowledge professor.


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## alblancher

He He  I hear somebody yanking on my chain


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## exhaustedspark

Well here is the answer i got back from the sausage maker regarding the labeling and use of Celeray powder.

Hey Karl,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    Good question. It is a new phenomenon using celery juice powder instead of using a salt and nitrite/nitrate combo (typical U.S. Cures), gaining steam quickly from the organic/natural food trend, which large producers know they can tap into... unfortunately the USDA/FDA is a fairly slow moving animal when it comes to proper labeling. I have seen these "uncured" smoked turkey slices, no nitrite bacon and so on. It is all just plain nonsense. The ingredients list on the package will invariably include celery juice powder or other high-nitrate vegetable extract which (as you mentioned) has plenty of nitrates which then break down into nitrites by reacting to bacteria present in the meat (_Staphylococcus xylosus _or _carnosus_, or a variant of _Micrococcaceae <--- _i have to check spelling EVERY time!). It is of course broken down further into nitric oxide. Usually you will also see the last ingredient as "Starter Culture" or Lactic Acid Bacteria or _S. xylosus_ which are used as a nitrate reductase, quickly breaking down the nitrates. The wording is what makes it 'technically' true but, it is in my opinion misleading and the USDA doesn't go far enough in regulating what 'uncured' means when it DOES in fact contain Nitrates which will eventually CURE the product over time. It sounds confusing because it is confusing, but its grrrrreat marketing ;-)

    Let me know if this made sense to you and if you need me to clarify anything...

Sincerely,
 

Miroslaw "Mac" Stanuszek
R & D
The SausageMaker, Inc.
716.824.5814 ext.517
[email protected]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On 8/10/2011 6:23 PM, Karl Miller wrote:


> Regarding the use of *#11080 Celery Juice Powder*
> 
> I have noticed the use of Celery juice powder with bacon and the pkg states it is not cured. I checked the USDA site and it states the product is not cured and no nitrites added must be posted on the package also.
> 
> This is causing a lot of confusion not only with me but on quite a few forums. Does this stuff indeed cure and why wont the usda acknowledge it??
> 
> Also how can one claim no nitrites added when indeed it looks like this stuff brakes down in to nitrites??
> 
> Karl


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## chef jay

I did some searches on TenderQuick in Toronto area which lead me to grocery store which could carry it. They didn't have it but they had their own cure called ReadyCure (registered trademark). The ingredients are salt, sodium nitrite and sodium bicarbonate. They list the usage for dry cure as 'use 2 lbs. to 100 lbs. of meat'. So I'm thinking from the ingredients that primarily this cure is for pickles but it does list meat. Will the sodium bicarbonate work with bacon? I'm not going to complain if it doesn't, it just means kosher dills for me...

On another note, my parents are on a cross country trip to the west coast and will be in Billings Montana tomorrow. Can anyone recommend a good bbq joint? My Dad will thank you for it.


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## tjohnson

I believe Sodium Bicarbonate is added to help speed up the process

Todd


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## alblancher

Todd,

I may need to look at that again.  Sodium Bicarbonate is normally an anti-caking agent to keep dry mixes flowing evenly.  I have not seen it on the list of approved accelerates  as I look for cure mixes used in injection curing.  I'll keep my eyes open but that is it's normal function in dry mixes.  I did see it mentioned in a survivalist blog when they made Sodium Nitrite from the Ammonium Nitrite found in cold packs 

 http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/02/the_process_of_preserving_meat.html


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## chef jay

I've thawed my pork belly and i'm going to give it a shot. Given the ratio above above, I figured out what amount of cure was needed per pound and then added some brown sugar and salt in the desired ratio as per another recipe I found. My next question is are you better to go light or heavy on the cure? I'm thinking less is best, as long as something is in there. I did it to what I calculated the ratio to be but I see, depending on the product, that some recipes call for more cure that what I've added (I have 4 lbs of meat, I added 1,28 oz of cure, 100:2 on the label).


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## tjohnson

Chef Jay said:


> I've thawed my pork belly and i'm going to give it a shot. Given the ratio above above, I figured out what amount of cure was needed per pound and then added some brown sugar and salt in the desired ratio as per another recipe I found. My next question is are you better to go light or heavy on the cure? I'm thinking less is best, as long as something is in there. I did it to what I calculated the ratio to be but I see, depending on the product, that some recipes call for more cure that what I've added (I have 4 lbs of meat, I added 1,28 oz of cure, 100:2 on the label).




Follow the instructions on the label, but you can add extra sugar and salt.  Use up all the mixture and stuff your slab in a ziploc bag.

Allow it to rest in the fridge for 7 days minimum, but I usually go 10 days.  Turn it every day.

Todd


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## Bearcarver

Chef Jay,

Yup---1.28 is what I get too, for 4 pounds, using Canada's "Ready Cure".

Bear


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## chef jay

Sorry for all the rookie questions but I guess we were all there once... Do I drain off the liquid that's produced or do I just leave it? If I do drain it, is it necessary to wipe it down? I'm turning it daily, I'm anxious and excited, and I think whatever I get will be better than not trying to do it at all. Also, I bought a bunch of wood this weekend with a gift certificate from my birthday and I got some pecan. Can I use it? If I combine woods, say apple and hickory, will it make a difference than using just one? Will my neighbours come knocking at my door once I start smoking the bacon?


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## fpnmf

Leave it..

Pecan is very good for bacon.

If you share it with your neighbors..you will have new friends for sure..

Stay calm..have fun...

Have a great day!!!

   Craig


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## chef jay

Thanks again for the quick response and for the advice. I will try the pecan. I've been dying to try it, it's the first time I've bought it. I'm pretty calm on the whole experience, I just can't wait to try homemade bacon.

The neighbours are used the smoke so I don't think they will mind. Once I bbq the final product, that's when they'll come knocking... (I make great pancakes too)


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## Bearcarver

Chef Jay said:


> Sorry for all the rookie questions but I guess we were all there once... Do I drain off the liquid that's produced or do I just leave it? If I do drain it, is it necessary to wipe it down? I'm turning it daily, I'm anxious and excited, and I think whatever I get will be better than not trying to do it at all. Also, I bought a bunch of wood this weekend with a gift certificate from my birthday and I got some pecan. Can I use it? If I combine woods, say apple and hickory, will it make a difference than using just one? Will my neighbours come knocking at my door once I start smoking the bacon?


I don't drain the juices until the Belly is through curing. Much of it will be reabsorbed, and some of it is cure.

All those woods are fine. I prefer Hickory, because I like my Bacon good & smoky.

Better Bar the doors, unless you're making a lot of Bacon !!!!

Don't forget the Qview!

Bear


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## daveomak

alblancher said:


> https://statich.smokingmeatforums.com/e/e6/e6acd54d_wp_001_2007_Natural_Organic_Cured_Meat1.pdf


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## chefrob

wow, a bacon thread that didn't turn into a mess..............great job and great info on this one! nice job guys and chef jay, don't forget pics!


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## chef jay

I tested my bacon before smoking it and while tasty, waaaay too salty. The colour and marbling, if you want to call it that, were great. It fried up very nicely as well.

I can figure out my ratio for the cure that I bought. Does any have a simple per pound ratio for salt and sugar to while curing? I can get fancy on the next batch. I'm still testing. The good news is I'm fairly confident on my cold smoking, now I just need smoke good to smoke. I'm going to get another piece today.


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## Bearcarver

Chef Jay said:


> I tested my bacon before smoking it and while tasty, waaaay too salty. The colour and marbling, if you want to call it that, were great. It fried up very nicely as well.
> 
> I can figure out my ratio for the cure that I bought. Does any have a simple per pound ratio for salt and sugar to while curing? I can get fancy on the next batch. I'm still testing. The good news is I'm fairly confident on my cold smoking, now I just need smoke good to smoke. I'm going to get another piece today.


Jay,

Did you soak it & test it again, and soak it & taste it again, until it was to your liking?

Bear


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## chef jay

Umm, sounds like I missed an important step... Ok, I have the next one on the go. So soak, test, soak, test. After I get desired saltiness, does it need to sit again or am I good to smoke?


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## Bearcarver

Chef Jay said:


> Umm, sounds like I missed an important step... Ok, I have the next one on the go. So soak, test, soak, test. After I get desired saltiness, does it need to sit again or am I good to smoke?


I use TQ, and I have NEVER HAD TO soak due to saltiness.

However, I always soak for a half hour to an hour, & then give a salt-fry test to a few small slices.

If it's not to salty, you can rinse, pat dry, season, and form your pellicle.

I form the pellicle overnight, on my racks, in my extra fridge, but you can also put it in front of a fan for an hour or two, or just put it in the smoker at about 130˚ for an hour or so "without smoke". Then it should be ready to add smoke.

If it is too salty after using "ReadyCure" or anything else, soak it for an hour or two, and test it again. Repeat until it's to your liking. Then it will be ready to do as I mentioned above.

Hope this helps,

Bear


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## chef jay

I does thanks, I appreciate your responses. I bought another 4 lb chunk of pork belly which I will cure. I'll follow the advice above and then try it out. I'll take some pictures and post them once done.


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## chef jay

I think I figured out part of my saltiness problem... When I did my second batch, I paid a little more attention to the weight of the meat. I started with a pork belly of 4.68 lbs and then after trimming (i'm not saying I did a good job) I ended up with 3.14 lbs. Well the first time I started off with a belly of 4.06 lbs and used enough cure for 4 lbs. I didn't consider the weight after trimming. My bad and dumb. This one should be better.


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## meateater

fpnmf said:


> Leave it..
> 
> Pecan is very good for bacon.
> 
> If you share it with your neighbors..you will have new friends for sure..
> 
> Stay calm..have fun...
> 
> Have a great day!!!
> 
> Craig


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## chef jay

Sorry for the delayed response on this, I did end up smoking this bacon. The bacon again was too salty, not as strong, but still too salty. I took the advice and soaked it overnight, tried it again and it was good. I let it sit for an additional day and then I was ready to smoke:







Keep in mind, this is only about 3 lbs as I'm still testing the waters... The trimming is not as pretty as I wanted but I'm not selling this stuff. I did a pecan, apple and hickory smoke. I soaked my chips for less than a half hour but I really had a hard time maintaining my smoke. I don't know if it was the weather or if I wasn't mixing wet and dry properly. It took a while to get a good one going but when I finally did (and a lot of constant watching for the day) everything worked out. My temps ran between 110 to 130, which seemed to be ok. Here's what I got:







I don't have a meat slicer so I thought I'd be smart and semi freeze it so I could use my mandoline. You know that old joke about a floppy disk and a hard drive? I ended up slicing it by hand but because it was semi-frozen it helped. There were trimmings, which I'm not complaining about because I will use those for pasta and soups. All and all the experience was very positive, I have bacon for the next month and half plus some very tasty carbonara coming up.

Next time I do it I'm thinking though I'd like to use my offset smoker. If I start the charcoal the night before, the charcoal should be still going but low enough that I'm just stoking with woodish items. Am I wrong in this thinking?


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## Bearcarver

As long as it tastes good, it doesn't matter if it's pretty!!!

Next time, a picture or two of some slices would be nice. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





You can also drain the water every half hour, instead of having to soak it so long.

They say adding some cut up raw taters will draw the salt out quicker.

I'm hoping you have the reason for the excess salt figured out now, for next time.

BTW: The color looks nice too!

Bear


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## exhaustedspark

Looks good. I just got a dedicatet rerfridge so i can give bacon a try.

Tnx for posting even the mistakes. It helps some one like me to learn.

Karl


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