# ?? Confused  about CURES ??



## fpmich (Oct 9, 2013)

*There is so much to learn about curing.*   It's new to me.

These are not all my questions, but will get me started anyway

1. Does cure#1 give a _"Hammy taste"_ to all smoked meats?

Such as turkey, fish, beef jerky?  I'd like my smoked meats to be safe for eating later, but don't want them all to taste like ham.

2. One ounce of cure#1   (Typo edited to read 1 tsp.) for 5 lb of meat seems to be a rule.

I don't have a digital scale yet.  How many teaspoons would 1 oz. of cure be?   *And* is that *rubbed on*, or in* a brine*?

3.  I like brining meat, like poultry.  Is there a ratio to adhere to for amount of liquid. or does it depend on weight of meat.

I read somewhere, that 1 level cup of cure#1 in one gal. of water/brine, would be acceptable for most things.   (Edited out.  Web page was promoting something without sodium nitrite in it.)

But I trust the opinions of this site, over the one I read that tidbit.

4.  I've read too much cure can be hazardous to us, but what are the limits?  Is it better to use a little less cure, and brine longer?  Most of the meats will be ate within a month, or frozen for later.

Like I said: *"There is so much to learn about curing".*

I'm not even going into sausage curing right now, cold or hot.

But, I'll get there sooner or later.  I will have many more question over the next year or two.

*Thank you all, *for your good advice, and patience with us newbies.

I know some of you post the same thing over and over again, and get tired of it.  But just blame it on the poor search that most forums have.  I usually do a search here, and then a site:search with Google.

Sometimes we just have to ask.  Thanks again.


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## s2k9k (Oct 9, 2013)

PLEASE read this article:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/curing-salts-for-sausage-making

I think you are talking about Morton's Tender Quick (TQ) but calling it cure #1. They are two different things used completely differently.


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## daveomak (Oct 9, 2013)

You should PM ChefJimmyJ....... he's the expert......


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## Bearcarver (Oct 9, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *There is so much to learn about curing.*   It's new to me.
> 
> These are not all my questions, but will get me started anyway
> 
> ...


*Bear*


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## fpmich (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks for your replies good folks.

*S2K9K*, I was talking about Cure #1 (pink salt cure)  not TQ.  I think I can control the amount of salt better with that than TQ.  At least that is what I understand from reading in the forums.  A lot of people seem to think TQ is too salty for their taste sometimes.  If I am wrong in my understanding, please correct my ignorance.

*DaveOmak*, I will search out ChefJimmy J and look at some of his threads, but I hesitate to PM anyone I haven't spoken with in a thread before.  Just seems bad form to me.  Mom's manner lessons are still with me it seems.  Sometimes anyway.  LOL

*Bearcarver*, I did mean to say 1 tsp. per 5 lb. of meat, for dry curing.  Just a typo.  I will go back and edited that.

BTW... I have your profile bookmarked, so I can find your recipes.

I've found Pops6927 simple brine cure

for every 1 gallon of water, add:

1/3 to 1 Cup sea salt (depending if you're on a lo-salt diet)

1 Cup granulated sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji]

1 Cup brown sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] brown sugar mix

1 TBS cure #1 pink salt

But I don't know if the amount of meat to be brined should change the amount of cure.  I read somewhere, here or there, to weigh both liquid and meat, to determine the amount of cure #1.

*It's a good thing I didn't just jump right in using that 1 cup to gallon posted on that other site*.  They call it Bacon Cure #1, but to a novice, it sounds like it is Cure #1 pink salt.  Someone is going to get sick from that sites lack of information.  Their Bacon Cure #1 contains no sodium nitrites.  But that isn't obviously mentioned.


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## pigbark (Oct 10, 2013)

I have around 15 lbs of Pork in 1 Gal. of Pops brine rite now.. I read a lot of the same crap your reading on my journey of learning to cure meat for Bacon..

The best thing I can tell you is to stay away from sites that do not have solid Moderators viewing posts on curing meats and other safety related issues.. The Mods here watch closely and will intervene when they see something posted incorrectly.. You and I being new to curing meat need that type of support so we don't get sick or make anyone sick from our trials.. You seem very interested in learning and I will vouch for this forum being a safe place to do so...

First thing I would suggest to ya is, clear your memory bank and cache... a lot of the stuff me and have read is so bogus we don't need the hassle  to figure out whats safe and what isn't!!!

cure#1 6.25% sodium nitrite pink salt aka DQ is safe @ 1 TSP per Gal. = Accurate info.  Pops has the math broken down in one of his threads..

 Here is what I did.. I picked Pops brine.. I ordered the cure, in the mean time I was reading threads where people were using the brine.. I also asked a couple members for their help if I ran into a problem, nothing like stacking the deck in your favor "Aces"... by the time the cure arrived, I had my recipe down which most of it was given to me and I only added 1 thing.. I knew my measurements and already lowered the temp in the fridge.. all I had to do is trim the meat and add everything together ,, inject the meat with the brine, cover and place in fridge... My first brine has been in since 10/6 ..

Its a very easy process that I encourage you to try.. All the reading I had done actually complicated a process that is simple as long as you have accurate information...

My Mortons TQ just got here today, looking for a sale this weekend...

~Jim

edit- typo , imagine me misspelling a word , just 1 wow I did good lol..


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## s2k9k (Oct 10, 2013)

When I saw the amounts you mentioned I thought someone might have confused TQ with cure#1 because a lot more TQ is used than cure#1.
Sorry for my confusion.


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## Bearcarver (Oct 10, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Thanks for your replies good folks.
> 
> *Bearcarver*, I did mean to say 1 tsp. per 5 lb. of meat, for dry curing.  Just a typo.  I will go back and edited that.
> 
> ...


Yes that is the right amount of Cure #1 for dry curing 5 lbs of meat. To cure 5 lbs of whole meat with TQ, it would take 5 TBS (2 1/2 ounces) of TQ.

You can also find many of my Step by Step recipes in my Signature, at the bottom of all of my posts.

Also: If I was going to brine cure with Cure #1, I would go with Pops' method.

Bear


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## smokinhusker (Oct 10, 2013)

Here's some threads explaining the different Curing agents http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/prague-powder-1-vs-prague-powder-2

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/137410/cures

A Universal Curing Calculator http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124590/universal-cure-calculator

Hope this helps a bit.


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## fpmich (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks for all the info everyone.

*I have another question now.*

As I understand it,

cure #1 is for quick cure for foods to be smoked or cooked at low temps.

and

cure #2 is to be used for long time curing of uncooked meats and will not be safe for using as a quick cure because the cure doesn't dissipate until after an extended time.

And that these two should not be used together.

But.... TQ seems to have both #1 & #2 in it.

If cure #2 takes so long and is unsafe for quick curing, why is TQ safe to use for a quick cure with something your going to eat quickly?


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## fpmich (Oct 11, 2013)

PigBark said:


> .....  I read a lot of the same crap your reading on my journey of learning to cure meat for Bacon..
> 
> The best thing I can tell you is to stay away from sites that do not have solid Moderators viewing posts on curing meats and other safety related issues.. The Mods here watch closely and will intervene when they see something posted incorrectly.. You and I being new to curing meat need that type of support so we don't get sick or make anyone sick from our trials.. You seem very interested in learning and I will vouch for this forum being a safe place to do so...
> 
> First thing I would suggest to ya is, clear your memory bank and cache... a lot of the stuff me and have read is so bogus we don't need the hassle  to figure out whats safe and what isn't!!!


PigBark, my memory bank and cache were cleared out years ago, and stay clear to my chagrin.  LOL


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## pigbark (Oct 11, 2013)

LOl I hear ya , I meant no harm bro..

Ill take a shot at your question but I may be wrong so if a Mod edits my post,its all good and im sure to learn...

If im not mistaken ,Mortons TQ has a lower %  of cure in it... Sodium Nitrate = 0.5% Sodium Nitrite = 0.5%

Pops Brine for example uses 6.25% Sodium Nitrite / Same preservative but different % amounts...


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## diesel (Oct 11, 2013)

I have been wondering about the amount of cure #1 (pink salt) in a wet brine.  I noticed that pops brine has 1 TBL (Tablespoon) per gallon of brine.  Were if you are dry curing it calls for 1 TSP (teaspoon) per 5 pounds.

Just wanted to confirm this?  The wet brine isn't based on the weight of the meat. 

I have been using pop's brine for a while now and just wondered about the amount of cure.

I hope this helps with fpmich's questions also.

Thanks everyone!

Aaron.


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## s2k9k (Oct 11, 2013)

Diesel said:


> I have been wondering about the amount of cure #1 (pink salt) in a wet brine.  *I noticed that pops brine has 1 TBL (Tablespoon) per gallon of brine.  Were if you are dry curing it calls for 1 TSP (teaspoon) per 5 pounds.
> 
> Just wanted to confirm this?  The wet brine isn't based on the weight of the meat. *
> 
> ...



This is correct!


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 11, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Thanks for all the info everyone.
> 
> *I have another question now.*
> 
> ...


What you have here is true. Your last statement has come up many times and has been fodder for some heated argument. What it boils down to is both Nitrate and Nitrite can be toxic in large quantities so using the proper amounts are important. The Cure Calculator that DiggingDogFarm wrote and Alesia posted is a great tool for determining the proper amount of cure for a given weight of meat. The issue with the small amount of Nitrate in TQ is, some years ago various studies showed that Sodium Nitrite can combine with the Amine Proteins, found in meats and any protein containing foods, in the stomach to form Nitrosamine, a Carcinogen. This causes Cancer in the digestive system. Sodium Nitrate came under scrutiny, with Bacon getting the most attention because the high heat and long cooking of Bacon to get it crisp forms Nitrosamine and the digestive system converts any residual Nitrate in cured meats to Nitrite and increases the level of Nitrosamine in the stomach. As a result the USDA reduced the  level of Nitrite used to cure Bacon to 120PPM, the minimum effective amount, and the use of Nitrate in Bacon production was banned. So the argument has been if the USDA banned the use of Nitrate in Bacon, why does TQ still contain Nitrate? Opinions vary but the most reasonable answer seems to be, TQ is used to cure a variety of meats not just Bacon and Morton's Recipes take the Nitrate into account. Additionally the USDA regulates the commercial production of cured meat not what you do at home for personal consumption. The good news is that further studies of Nitrite, Nitrate and Nitrosamines has found that the addition of Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C, at 550PPM to cures inhibits the formation of Nitrosamine. So now Sodium Erythorbate, an isomer of Ascorbic Acid which is cheaper, is added to commercially cured meats. On a much simpler note, there is no need to sweat using TQ to cure Bacon as a big glass of Orange Juice with breakfast will help inhibit the cancer causing chemicals. Looks like Grandma was smarter than we thought...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






...JJ


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## Bearcarver (Oct 11, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> What you have here is true. Your last statement has come up many times and has been fodder for some heated argument. What it boils down to is both Nitrate and Nitrite can be toxic in large quantities so using the proper amounts are important. The Cure Calculator that DiggingDogFarm wrote and Alesia posted is a great tool for determining the proper amount of cure for a given weight of meat. The issue with the small amount of Nitrate in TQ is, some years ago various studies showed that Sodium Nitrite can combine with the Amine Proteins, found in meats and any protein containing foods, in the stomach to form Nitrosamine, a Carcinogen. This causes Cancer in the digestive system.* Sodium Nitrate came under scrutiny, with Bacon getting the most attention because the high heat and long cooking of Bacon to get it crisp forms Nitrosamine and the digestive system converts any residual Nitrate in cured meats to Nitrite and increases the level of Nitrosamine in the stomach.* As a result the USDA reduced the  level of Nitrite used to cure Bacon to 120PPM, the minimum effective amount, and the use of Nitrate in Bacon production was banned. So the argument has been if the USDA banned the use of Nitrate in Bacon, why does TQ still contain Nitrate? Opinions vary but the most reasonable answer seems to be, TQ is used to cure a variety of meats not just Bacon and Morton's Recipes take the Nitrate into account. Additionally the USDA regulates the commercial production of cured meat not what you do at home for personal consumption. The good news is that further studies of Nitrite, Nitrate and Nitrosamines has found that the addition of Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C, at 550PPM to cures inhibits the formation of Nitrosamine. So now Sodium Erythorbate, an isomer of Ascorbic Acid which is cheaper, is added to commercially cured meats. On a much simpler note, there is no need to sweat using TQ to cure Bacon as a big glass of Orange Juice with breakfast will help inhibit the cancer causing chemicals. Looks like Grandma was smarter than we thought...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't remember what that frying pan heat is, but when I looked it up a couple years ago, I found the temperature they were calling dangerous was higher than I ever fry Bacon, in fact I had to keep my electric burner on high continuously to get there when I tested it, and I don't think anyone does that. It causes you to burn everything. Therefore even though orange juice is Great & good for you, it isn't needed, no matter what cure you use on your Bacon. IMHO

Bear


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 11, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> I don't remember what that frying pan heat is, but when I looked it up a couple years ago, I found the temperature they were calling dangerous was higher than I ever fry Bacon, in fact I had to keep my electric burner on high continuously to get there when I tested it, and I don't think anyone does that. It causes you to burn everything. Therefore even though orange juice is Great & good for you, it isn't needed, no matter what cure you use on your Bacon. IMHO
> 
> Bear


The temps studies found to be a problem are 350°F or higher. Unfortunately is 350-375°F is the typical temp that Restaurants and most people cook at in a frying pan, med/hi. This is more so out of habit and the need for speed. This is also the temp that browns meat and other food quickly. I pretty much feel Nitrosamines can form in the stomach from ingesting a variety of foods and I only eat Bacon once a week at most. There is a lot more stuff that will kill you faster than eating Bacon...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 12, 2013)

Thanks so much for all the replies and information supplied to me in this thread.  I appreciate it very much.

The answers to my TQ question was pretty much what I was thinking.  I did notice that it has a much lower quantity of nitrate compared to nitrite, but I still thought it best to ask, rather than just assume.  So thank you for confirming this for me.

I've also learned that cures will make pork taste hammy, but not beef or fish.

*However, I am still wondering about poultry taste if using a cure.*

I've tasted smoked both chicken and turkey had a nice smoke flavor, and some turkey that did have a hammy flavor.

I'm guessing  that just smoking, and cooking poultry to proper temps for immediate eating, or chilling to be reheated in a couple a days for a dinner, would just give a smoky flavor.  And I assume the hammy turkey I've tasted, was smoked with a cure.

Answer this last question, and I should be done with this thread, except for reading it over and over to digest everything.

Thanks


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 12, 2013)

With Chicken, I just hot smoke it, 275°F to the desired IT. The Chicken has a nice smoked flavor but taste like Chicken. Additionaly, I always Brine my birds but never add cure so I can't speak to how it taste with cure. Turkey on the other hand does taste similar to Ham if a cure is used. Think Deli Turkey Ham, Turkey Bacon and Smoked Turkey Legs at County Fairs and such...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 12, 2013)

Thanks Chef JJ.

Yes, I've done chicken on a grill indirect heat with smoke and it was great.  But I never done Turkey leg or breast that way.

So I guess if I am going to smoke turkey, I'll just brine the bird same as I do for oven cooking, only cook it @ 300* in smoker.  I would finish in oven if I couldn't approaching 165* IT in reasonable amount of time on smoker.

Thanks for your quick answer.  I want smoked turkey, not turkey ham.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 12, 2013)

You are welcome and Good Luck...JJ


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## Bearcarver (Oct 12, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> The temps studies found to be a problem are 350°F or higher. Unfortunately is 350-375°F is the typical temp that Restaurants and most people cook at in a frying pan, med/hi. This is more so out of habit and the need for speed. This is also the temp that browns meat and other food quickly. I pretty much feel Nitrosamines can form in the stomach from ingesting a variety of foods and I only eat Bacon once a week at most. There is a lot more stuff that will kill you faster than eating Bacon...JJ


Thanks JJ !!

It appears we use a lower temp than most. I usually turn it on high just to get it up there fast, but then turn it down, so as to not burn my Bacon.

Bear


fpmich said:


> Thanks Chef JJ.
> 
> Yes, I've done chicken on a grill indirect heat with smoke and it was great.  But I never done Turkey leg or breast that way.
> 
> ...


Cured & smoked Turkey legs are Hammy & Awesome.

I have also had a fully cured & smoked Turkey, and even though I know it's perfectly safe, it makes me think about it while eating it, and scares most people away from it, because it looks so raw.

Bear


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## fpmich (Oct 15, 2013)

_Well, I "thought" I was done with this thread._   But now I've got another question!

I just put a salmon filet, cut into pieces in a brine Monday night, thinking 1 day to brine, one night to dry in fridge and smoke on Wednesday.

They changes the weather forecast on me again (LOL) so now I'll have to wait until Thursday to smoke without standing in the rain.

My question is, will it be OK to leave fish in brine for 2 days instead of one.  I'm pretty sure it is, but wanted to be sure.

Also, will the extra time in brine make my fish more salty, or mushy?

In case it depends on the cure, here is what I used.

1 gal. water (non-chlorinated)

1 c. TQ

1/2 c. Splenda

1/3 c. brown sugar

1/3 c. real maple syrup

sliced orange, lemon, lime, bay leaves, peppercorns, bruised garlic gloves, dill weed, & Ramp powder, in place of onions.

Thanks for your help once again.


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 15, 2013)

As far as salinity, that is a pretty weak brine.  You will most likely do just fine.  I use twice that and let mine brine for approx. 16 hours.

Tom


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## fpmich (Oct 15, 2013)

Tnx Mr. T.  I feel better now.

Guess I'll have to build a shelter so I can smoke semi-comfortable in inclement weather.  I doubt I can talk wife into it tho.  LOL


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## pigbark (Oct 15, 2013)

What kind of Bay Leaves did ya add in ?

your brine sounds good..


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## Bearcarver (Oct 15, 2013)

IMO---It depends on your brine. Over 8 hours would be too long for my brine.

I would suggest using your original plan for brine time, and use up the rest of the time uncovered in a fridge accumulating pellicle.

Bear


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 15, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Tnx Mr. T.  I feel better now.
> 
> Guess I'll have to build a shelter so I can smoke semi-comfortable in inclement weather.  I doubt I can talk wife into it tho.  LOL


Are you brining to cure your fish or are you using your brine as a marinade to simply flavor you fish?  There is quite a difference between the two.  I would suggest that if you don't know the % salinity of your brine and the corresponding brining time, it should be treated as fresh fish throughout the complete smoking process.

As for your shelter, build it when she is away and hang a picture of her on the inside.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Tom


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## fpmich (Oct 15, 2013)

Well, Crap!  After reading that this was weak brine, I just re read the bag of TQ.  It's says 1 cup to 4 cups water.  I had misread it to mean 1 cups to 4 quarts water.

So now what?  It's been in this 1/4 strength TQ brine for 24 hours now.  Do I mix up another 3 cups of TQ with some of the water and add it back in?  4 cups of TQ seems like an awful lot of salt to me.  And if I added that much more in should I also increase by sugars as well?


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## Bearcarver (Oct 15, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Well, Crap!  After reading that this was weak brine, I just re read the bag of TQ.  It's says 1 cup to 4 cups water.  I had misread it to mean 1 cups to 4 quarts water.
> 
> So now what?  It's been in this 1/4 strength TQ brine for 24 hours now.  Do I mix up another 3 cups of TQ with some of the water and add it back in?  4 cups of TQ seems like an awful lot of salt to me.  And if I added that much more in should I also increase by sugars as well?


Personally I would leave it alone. The only salt in a gallon of my marinade is 1/2 cup of salt & 6 ounces of Soy Sauce, and everyone who has tried it loves it. You even had yours in your marinade 4 times as long as I do. I would put it in the fridge, uncovered until you're ready to smoke it. Then make sure you smoke it to at least 145*. Some say my marinade is weak, except for those who followed my Step by Step. They love it.

Check out my Smoked Salmon in my signature below to compare.

Bear


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## pigbark (Oct 15, 2013)

I keep fish filets in water for up to 5 days as im soaking it in regular salt water after cleaning it- what was the expiration date on your package? .you should be ok if it was fresh when you bought it as long as your not trying to preserve it..

TQ is very salty, I havnt tried it yet but I have 2 bags in the cabinet..Sodium level is very high


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 15, 2013)

Personally I would go with what you have and make the adjustments on the next one's you do.  Just treat it as a you would fresh fish and store accordingly.    I encourage those that want cured fish to follow the manufactures recommendations as they are tested and proven with known % salinity's.  When curing fish it is important not to change the recommended salt content of your brine, adjustments are made by changing the other ingredients. If you are looking to just add flavoring to your fish, you can use other recipes with unknown salinity's, but handle as you would fresh fish for obvious safety reasons.  You cannot judge if a fish has been safely cured by taste.

Tom


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## fpmich (Oct 16, 2013)

Thanks to all of you for replying to my emergency.  Man do I appreciate it!  Whew!  I feel a little better now.

*Pig Bark,*
I don't what kind of Bay.  Whole leaves, of whatever the grocery store sold me, is my best guess.

*Mr T 59874,*
Any reason not to do both cure/brine and add flavors at same time?  Seemed like it would be a natural thing to do.

If "for curing" you mean for long time storage, then no, I am not doing it for that reason.  I just thought the added protection of a cure would make sure I don't make my brother, my sister and myself sick.  This will get used up or frozen within 10 days.
I plan to take to an IT of 145* - 155* within 4 hours, and then dry it a little more after that time if needed.

I've smoked salmon a couple times before and never used a cure, just brine and flavors.  Didn't use a therm' either, just relied on touch, flaky ness, moisture and taste.  Stupid maybe, but no one got sick and I am sure I got temps well over 150*  a couple times during the smoke using my grill, because I got a little of the white ooziness stuff, which I just wiped off.

Expiration date?  NONE.

Whole filet was frozen in my brothers freezer for a year.  I made him no promises tho.  It was not slimy when I rinsed it off after thawing in fridge for 3 days, and did not have a strong "fishy" smell.  Flesh was firm and color looked good.  I only trimmed of a little belly fat, removed a fin and the tail, and pulled the pin bones out of it.

*Bearcarver, *Any downside to fridge drying the salmon for 2 days rather than 1, or less?

I'm wondering if it will make it a little "too dry" when I 1st start smoking.

-------------------------

*Anyone else with answers jump in please*.  I'm debating whether or not to go out to kitchen right now and rinse it and place on racks in fridge or wait until tomorrow.  It will still have 20-24 hours of fridge drying if I wait until tomorrow.

I think with this batch, I will be doing a taste test before smoking.  Rinse a small piece well, fry or nuke it to cook, and taste.  If too salty, then soak another little piece for awhile, and try again.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2013)

Generally, Brines work in two ways, Low salt a long time, High salt a short time. You have the fish sufficiently brined and if you are treating it like a fresh fish and hot smoking to 140-150°F. There will be no safety issues. As far as Pellicle there is no reason you can't keep it wrapped in plastic one day and dry the next 24Hrs all the way up to keeping it wrapped up to the 2 hours before hot smoking and placing it in front of a Fan on the counter to get a quick Pellicle...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 16, 2013)

Thank you Chef.

I'm relieved to know that.

Based on my brine strength, should I take it out now and cover for a day,  Or am I okay leaving it in brine until tomorrow and then dry overnight?

You may have to read up to see when I started.

I will bring it up to temp within 4 hours.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2013)

If you are worried about it drying too much, take it out of the brine and just wrap until tomorrow. I have not brined fish more than a few hours so I am not sure what a 2 day brine will do to the meat texture...JJ


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## pigbark (Oct 16, 2013)

Depends on the fish, most times with the fish I brine "Striper and Catfish", it tightens the filets up rather firm but when it cooks I see no difference in the texture only the taste..they cook the same..

We just learned 1 thing, Chef JJ isn't a fisherman... sooooooo, tell us about your 4 hr fish brine please,would love to hear whats in it... please don't say Milk.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2013)

PigBark said:


> Depends on the fish, most times with the fish I brine "Striper and Catfish", it tightens the filets up rather firm but when it cooks I see no difference in the texture only the taste..they cook the same..
> 
> We just learned 1 thing, Chef JJ isn't a fisherman... sooooooo, tell us about your 4 hr fish brine please,would love to hear whats in it... please don't say Milk.


For the last few years I been using Bearcarver's Brine. Good Stuff.

I was big into Freshwater fishing 25 years ago. I had a sweet '87 Bayliner Fish and Ski, was no Ranger but got the job done. Two pedestals seats, 24LB Electric Motor with Foot Control, two live wells, 90HP Force Outboard. I got married a year later, house, babies shortly after...Had to sell my toys...
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





...I get to drown a Minnie once in a while...JJ


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## pigbark (Oct 16, 2013)

o man, I hate to see the boat go... Breaks my heart just hearing it... dammer man.. sounds like a sweet rig for its day... you prolly saved money by selling it though.. B. break O. out A. another T. thousand -

2/3 of a gallon of water

1/3 Apple cider vinegar top off gallon jug with this then pour in big pot.

2/3 cup salt

1/2 cup garlic , usually heaping as I love it..

2 fresh lemons

1/4 cup  pepper

that's if we had a good day fishing lol...  been days where the bucket sat empty or just a few  filets in regular ole salt water lol...

 Im gonna go looking at Bears old posts and find that concauction...see what else I can learn today,

have a good 1 JJ.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 16, 2013)

I hear ya Bro, was not a day we owned that boat that it didn't cost money. The day we went to pick it up my bro and I got in to inspect everything, was beautiful. My bro broke out one of the bubble windshields swinging his leg out, $100... First day on the water I turned just in time to watch the the engine trailering bar, that kept the engine up off the road, vibrate across the small part of deck next to the engine and plop in 20' of water, $50...I could go on but don't want a Hijack situation to take the thread. Here, save you some search time...JJ

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/91264/final-smoked-salmon-with-recipe-instructions-and-qview


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## Bearcarver (Oct 16, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Thanks to all of you for replying to my emergency.  Man do I appreciate it!  Whew!  I feel a little better now.
> 
> *Bearcarver, *Any downside to fridge drying the salmon for 2 days rather than 1, or less?
> 
> ...


*Bear*


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 16, 2013)

Yes, you can add flavors at the same time that you are cure/brining to develop a desired flavor the same as what would be done by using a marinade.   The difference being the amount of salt being used in each.  Where we should be careful is clarifying what a recipe's intended use is.  There are literally thousands of wonderful salmon recipe's that use a weak brine in their preparation.  The challenge for the ones who want to preserve their product,  is to develop a recipe that not only preserves, but also taste good.

It's been my observation here on the forum that there are many more who will use a weak brine or cure recipe to simply flavor there fish or other product over the ones who actually want to preserve their product.   What concern's not only myself is that a cure/brine recipe regardless of the salt content may suggest simply by the wording that a product is preserved.  This is the reason of the importance for those who want to preserve their food to know the % salinity when actually preserving food whether dry curing, brining or pickling.  Of course in your case this is not as important as you are treating your fish as if it were fresh. 

Tom


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## Bearcarver (Oct 16, 2013)

Tom makes a good point. I rate them in at least 3 categories:

Note:   I don't consider any of these to be "Fresh Fish" because they are all "Smoked".

#1   Fast & hot smoked Salmon----Maintains the moisture, and is good to have for Dinner.

#2   Brined & Smoked Salmon (for snacking)------This is my type of "Smoked Salmon". It is Brined with a minimum amount of salt so as not to make it taste like a "Blind Robin". Then it is smoked for long enough to get rid of enough moisture (to at least 145* IT) so you can pick it up in your hand & eat it as a snack. You could put it in a baggie & stick it in your shirt pocket for a few hours, but I wouldn't leave it out on your counter for days. It should be refrigerated for consumption in up to 5 days (maybe longer, but it doesn't last that long in my fridge without getting eaten). If you're planning on keeping it longer, it should be vacuum packed & put in the freezer. I never felt the need to salt & smoke anything to last longer at room temperature than mine does.

#3   Preserved Fish-------If I was interested in this, I would need to be educated on this apparently, because I never did it. I have tasted some that was called "Preserved", and it was far too salty for my taste. I don't know how long it lasts in a fridge, or if it can be left on the counter, but I would guess it would have to be very dry & very salty to stay out of the fridge for any extended length of time.

I hope this helps somebody,

Bear


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## fpmich (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks for even more additional info.  I can use all the help I can get.

Every time I think I have learned one thing, I find 10 related things that I didn't learn.

Kind of like, "the older you get the smarter your parents become".

Thanks for the boating lessons too.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






OK, so my salmon were in weak brine 48 1/2 hours.

Rinsed well and fried up a small piece to taste.  Not bad.  Just a touch salty, but I haven't died yet.  That's good news, right?

So I put the salmon pieces in a stainless pot in cold water and let cold water run at a small trickle over them for about 1 hour.

Removed, squeezed fairly dry with paper towels, and placed skin side down on racks and into bottom of fridge.  They will be in there for about 18 hours until I start to smoke them.  I plan on starting my smoke right away if they have pellicle formed, at temp around 100* for 1 hour, then slowly raise temp to 140* for an hour or so, and then raise to 180*-200* until  145-150* IT in thickest pieces.  Then cool down smoker a bit and continue to dry, or smoke more, if needed.

*Question 1:*   *Do I have to hold 145-150* for a certain length of time,* or just hit that mark for a couple of minutes?

(I should have asked this next question, before I even started this fish.)

*Question 2: * *If I bring fish to an IT of 150* within 4 hours, is there any reason to use a cure in my brine?*

Or should I "only use cure" if I want a longer time than 4 hours between 40-140*?  Say extra drying time on counter, or longer cooler smoke.  A safety margin I guess.

Thanks again for your patience and help.

------------------------------

*Son just called me today.*   He and his wife went salmon fishing for the very 1st time.  Didn't have a clue, until an older guy talked to them on the bank and showed them how to rig their bait.  Then they had a ball!

*Beginners luck like I've never had.  *They have caught 20 salmon (mix of Kings & Choho's) plus 1 Steelhead this past week.

He wanted to know when I could smoke some for him.  I told him he didn't need my smoker, he needed a full sized smoke house!  LOL

He laughed and said no, only bringing me a few to do.

*Just how many salmon fillets can one do on a CG Smoking Pro at a time?*   I'm guessing maybe 3?


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 17, 2013)

The USDA recommends that when heating salmon to 145° that it be held there for 30 minutes.  The lower the temp the longer the hold time, the warmer the temp the shorter the hold time.

Cures are used for preserving foods.  Not needed for short time consumption, no different than using a marinade.

I don't understand changing the temps the way you plan.  Seems you are making this very difficult for yourself.   I would heat at 200°, when the IT reaches 140° turn the smoker down and remove after a half hour. Should be done within an hour.

Hope you enjoy.

Tom


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## Bearcarver (Oct 17, 2013)

Frank,

Mr T got you covered pretty well with your latest questions.

The only thing else I'll say is before the invention of the AMNS and the AMNPS, I used to take my MES 30 up in 20 degree bumps to keep the wood chips and/or chunks going. Since then I have found that taking it up slowly, like you did, gives you less fat coming through any cracks in your surfaces. IMHO

Bear


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## fpmich (Oct 17, 2013)

Smoking got set back another day.  Just too much rain.  However I now have a nice pellicle on it now.

Got to smoke it today rain, sun or snow.  I'm afraid to leave it another day is bottom of fridge.  Brined or not.  Call me chicken.  lol

*Mr T. * Did you used to work for USDA?

Man you know all this stuff right off the bat.  Very convenient for us newbie's, that you are quick with replies and accurate info.  We appreciate that.

I like to start low and raise temps higher as I go along with salmon pretty much same reason Bear said.

1st time I smoked salmon, I did it too hot, it had a lot of stuff oozing out of it, which I had to wipe off.  The next two times I tried smoking fish, I started low and raised temps as I went.  A lot less creamy crud on top of filets that way.  Plus I think it gives the fish a little more drying time.  I don't like my smoked salmon too dry, but I don't want it the same as a baked or broiled salmon either.

If I'm wrong in my thinking, please let me know.  Just because I got lucky once or twice, doesn't mean it was the best way.

Thanks


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> The USDA recommends that when heating salmon to 145° that it be held there for 30 minutes.  The lower the temp the longer the hold time, the warmer the temp the shorter the hold time.
> 
> Cures are used for preserving foods.  Not needed for short time consumption, no different than using a marinade.
> 
> ...


I have seen this USDA/FSIS Chart on Safe Minimum Internal Temperature Chart and others... http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...um_Internal_Temperature_Chart.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Where are you getting 145° that is held for 30 minutes? Since it is a Food Safety issue posting a Link to your Source is authorized because many Gov charts don't Copy and Paste, like the one above. I want to make sure I have the latest updates and/or changes...I don't smoke fish for sale to the public, at least not any that won't be eaten minutes after it hits the table, so I may be missing some industry specific info. I have seen some PNW University Studies with 150-160° held 30 minutes but they refer to salt only brining with the major concern being Clostridium Botulinum. The use of cure #1/TQ negates that issue. I just have not seen anything from the USDA...Thanks Tom...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 18, 2013)

Sheesh!  *Confused again here now!  *Thanks LOL

*Chef JJ,*  are you saying that just hitting the safe temp of food is enough?

I know that's fine when cooking something in oven or fry pan like a steak, but didn't know about smoking which is usually longer cook times.

I seem to remember seeing a chart or something, about holding certain meat at a temp for safety, similar to what Mr T. said.  I don't remember where I saw it, but I think it was probably a university study or something like that.  I don't know.

All I know is that I have to smoke this fish later regardless.  Smoke it, or throw it out.  Today's the day.

I will eat a hunk of it, and not pass it on to who it is for, for 2 days.  If I'm not sick or dead, then they get their smoked fish, and I be able to keep posting questions, until I learn enough to be somewhat comfortable with the smoking thing.

Sure different than kitchen cooking.  LOL


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

This is similar info from the FDA Restaurant Food Code 2009. This is what restaurants are required to do by Law... During my training and all the restaurants I have owned or operated, this is what I have followed. I have seen and followed the second chart that specifies the IT and Holding Times for IT's Below and Above 145°F as well. I don't dispute Mr. T. I just have never heard of such a thing from the USDA or FDA...Meat IT is the same regardless of Oven, Pan or Smoker. You hit the IT and hold as specified below, can be included the Rest time, and it's Done...JJ

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm186451.htm
[h3]_Cooking_[/h3][h4]3-401.11 Raw Animal Foods.[/h4]
(A) Except as specified under ¶ (B) and in ¶¶ (C) and (D) of this section, raw animal foods such as eggs, fish,meat, poultry, and foods containing these raw animal foods, shall be cooked to heat all parts of the food to a temperature and for a time that complies with one of the following methods based on the food that is being cooked:
(1) 63oC (145oF) or above for 15 seconds for: P
(a)   Raw eggs that are broken and prepared in response to a consumer's order and for immediate service, P  and
(b) Except as specified under Subparagraphs (A)(2) and (A)(3) and ¶ (B), and in ¶ (C) of this section,fish and meat including game animals commercially raised for food as specified under Subparagraph 3-201.17(A)(1) and game animals under a voluntary inspection program as specified under Subparagraph 3-201.17(A)(2);  P

(2) 68oC (155oF) for 15 seconds or the temperature specified in the following chart that corresponds to the holding time for ratites, mechanically tenderized, and injected meats; the following if they are comminuted: fish, meat, game animals commercially raised for food as specified under Subparagraph 3-201.17(A)(1), andgame animals under a voluntary inspection program as specified under Subparagraph 3-201.17(A)(2); and raw eggs that are not prepared as specified under Subparagraph (A)(1)(a) of this section: P​​


Minimum Temperature
oC (oF)Minimum Time63 (145)3 minutes66 (150)1 minute70 (158)< 1 second instantaneous)

The Specified Paragraphs B,C and D Refer the cooking temps and holding times for Roasts, the conditions under which Rare or Mid/Rare Beef Steaks can be served and the conditions under which Raw Fish and Beef can be served.


(2) As specified in the following chart, to heat all parts of the food to a temperature and for the holding time that corresponds to that temperature:  P
Temperature
°C (°F)Time1  in MinutesTemperature
°C (°F)Time1  in Seconds54.4 (130)11263.9 (147)13455.0 (131)8965.0 (149)8556.1 (133)5666.1 (151)5457.2 (135)3667.2 (153)3457.8 (136)2868.3 (155)2258.9 (138)1869.4 (157)1460.0 (140)1270.0 (158)061.1 (142)8    62.2 (144)5    62.8 (145)4    1_  Holding time may include postoven heat rise_. 
  


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## fpmich (Oct 18, 2013)

Thank you for the chart and PM Dude.

So... 145*. for 4 minutes is safe.  right?


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## pigbark (Oct 18, 2013)

Mornin fellas, cool chart JJ,, thanks...

saved to notepad.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Thank you for the chart and PM Dude.
> 
> So... 145*. for 4 minutes is safe.  right?


PM returned and yes 4 minutes is safe for any fresh meat and Fish that is cooked at the USDA specified 225°F or high. In the case of Salmon containing a Cure, #1 or TQ the same 4 minutes applies. It should be noted that this 4 minutes includes the rest time we give any meat, as the temp will rise a few degrees as it sits. The only time I have ever seen the 30 minute holding time is Salt Only Brined Fish from some Northwestern University Publications. The concern being Clostridium Botulinum's resistance to the brine and it's possible survival. Your use of TQ eliminated or reduced any possibility of CB survival even at the low concentration used. Smoking at 225°F to an IT of 145° will be completely safe...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks for PM Chef & I apologize for the misunderstanding.

So for last hour or so, I should have smoker at 225* or higher, to attain IT temps safely?  Especially considering my weak cure?


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

Your fine at 200°F. 225° really becomes more important when we are talking injected Butts or Ground Meats like a big old Fattie. Government Guidelines have a built in Margin of Error, especially the USDA. A few degrees makes little difference. That Salmon will reach temp quickly at 200°. I would show a variety of USDA Food Safety Videos to my Students. In everyone of their examples they showed that no One mistake has much impact, it takes a few things to go wrong or be done improperly to cause food borne illness. Even a weak brine of TQ the amount of time you soaked, I see no issue and you are double protected by smoking at the higher temp...JJ


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## daveomak (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> The USDA recommends that when heating salmon to 145° that it be held there for 30 minutes.  The lower the temp the longer the hold time, the warmer the temp the shorter the hold time.
> 
> Cures are used for preserving foods.  Not needed for short time consumption, no different than using a marinade.
> 
> ...


Tom, morning.....  I see you have this place in a turmoil..   Looks like you hit an extra key to me....   I know you probably intended 3 minutes instead of 30....  not a big deal.... everyone on this forum has hit a wrong/extra key a time or two....   I don't think your extra 27 minutes at 145 is a safety issue, as the fish would be at 145, not overcooked and the bacteria would be killed, adequately, with the extra 27 minutes, if someone followed that "soak" time.....    

Everything looks perfectly good to me...  Hey..... Sous Vide.....  Fish could be held hours longer at 145 than 27 minutes, so I really don't see what the problem is...

Dave


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 18, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Tom, morning.....  I see you have this place in a turmoil..   Looks like you hit an extra key to me....   I know you probably intended 3 minutes instead of 30....  not a big deal.... everyone on this forum has hit a wrong/extra key a time or two....   I don't think your extra 27 minutes at 145 is a safety issue, as the fish would be at 145, not overcooked and the bacteria would be killed, adequately, with the extra 27 minutes, if someone followed that "soak" time.....
> 
> Everything looks perfectly good to me...  Hey..... Sous Vide.....  Fish could be held hours longer at 145 than 27 minutes, so I really don't see what the problem is...
> 
> Dave


No extra key here. The internal temperature of the fish must be maintained at or above 62.8ºC (145°F) throughout the fish for at least 30 min (FDA, 2001). http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/haccp/compendium/chapt07.htm

How did I get anything in a turmoil?  If we can't discuss general food safety without causing trouble, what's the use.  I am not one who determines whether my food is safe by seeing if anyone gets sick after eating it.


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## daveomak (Oct 18, 2013)

Tom, Thank you for the valuable lesson....  If this all sinks in, I guess you can teach and old dog new tricks.......  It seems there are a varied number of pathogens that need attention...   From scanning the document, it appears all salmon should be treated like you mention.....  

Good job........

*Hot-Smoked Fish (Reduced Oxygen Packaging*

The internal temperature of the fish must be maintained at or above 62.8ºC (145°F) throughout the fish for at least 30 min (FDA, 2001).
​

For hot process smoked fish to be air packaged, a controlled process must be used to heat fish to a continuous temperature of a least 145ºF (62.8ºC) throughout each fish for a minimum of 30 min for fish brined to contain not less than 2.5% water phase salt in the loin muscle of the finished product.

For hot process smoked fish to be vacuum or modified atmosphere packaged, a controlled process must be used to heat fish to a continuous temperature of at least 145ºF (62.8ºC) throughout each fish for a minimum of 30 min for fish brined to contain not less than 3.5% water phase salt in the loin muscle of the finished product or the combination of 3.0% water phase salt in the loin muscle of the finished product and not less than 100 ppm nor more than 200 ppm sodium nitrite.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok I see where you are coming from now. There " are " different guidelines for Smoked fish to be packaged for transportation and resale. Out of curiosity what Shelf Life can be expected with this level of cooking. I would assume much longer than the 4 minutes requirement for Restaurants. Thanks for the info...JJ


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 18, 2013)

Properly cured, cooked and packaged fish can be kept for at least 90 days.

Tom


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Properly cured, cooked and packaged fish can be kept for at least 90 days.
> 
> Tom


That is incredible. It is interesting how the relatively small changes in the amounts of salt, water activity levels and additional hold at temp change can take 5 days of storage time and make the fish last 90 days...JJ


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## Bearcarver (Oct 18, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> That is incredible. It is interesting how the relatively small changes in the amounts of salt, water activity levels and additional hold at temp change can take 5 days of storage time and make the fish last 90 days...JJ


90 Days in freezer, fridge, or room temp??

Bear


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## daveomak (Oct 18, 2013)

Bearcarver, morning....  It's all in here.......   

http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/haccp/compendium/chapt07.htm


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 18, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> 90 Days in freezer, fridge, or room temp??
> 
> Bear


Since the regs limited the time the processed fish can be at 50°F, I am thinking under Refrigeration, 36-38°F. Just about any well packaged meat can go 6-12 months at -10°F or lower...JJ


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 18, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> 90 Days in freezer, fridge, or room temp??
> 
> Bear


It all can't be put under one umbrella.  The following is from a producer in California.

PRODUCT                             PACKAGE SIZE                                      SHELF LIFE

                                                                                                         Refrigerated- Days

HOT SMOKED SALMON

FULLY COOKED- vacuum packed

Smoked Alaskan-Pepper  Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                             60

WILD                                   Sides- Approx. 3 lbs.                                                 60

Smoked Alaskan-Garlic     Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                            60

WILD                                   Sides- Approx. 3 lbs.                                                 60

Smoked Coho Salmon      Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                            60

Pepper- WILD                    Sides- Approx. 3 lbs.                                                  60

Smoked Coho Salmon      Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                            60 

Garlic- WILD                      Sides- Approx. 3 lbs.                                                60

Salmon Jerky- WILD          1 oz.                                                               90-unrefrigerated

Salmon Jerky- WILD          4 oz.                                                               90-unrefrigerated

Atlantic Salmon-Plain        7-8 oz.   or Approx 3 lb. sides                                     60

Atlantic Salmon-Garlic       7-8 oz.   or Approx 3 lb. sides                                    60

Atlantic Salmon-                7-8 oz.   or Approx 3 lb. sides                                     60

Cracked Pepper

Smoked Albacore Tuna    Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                            60

WILD- Line Caught           Sides- Approx. 2 lbs.                                                    60

Dolphin Safe

Idaho Rainbow Trout        Random- Approx. 5-7 oz.                                             60

Sturgeon                           Random- Approx. 4-6 oz.                                            60

COLD SMOKED SALMON

Salted, Cured & Thinly Sliced

Atlantic Salmon- Nova     4 oz.   or  Sides 2-3 lbs.                                                30

Less salt and more smoke

Atlantic Salmon- Nova     8 oz. or Sides 2-3 lbs.                                                   30

Dill / Cognac    or

Lemon Pepper or

4 pepper medley

WILD Sockeye                4 oz., 8 oz. or Sides 2-3 lbs.                                          30

Salmon Lox

Lox Trim- bits and            1 lb.                                                                                30

pieces

Hope this helps.

Tom


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## Bearcarver (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks Dave, Jimmy, and Tom !!

You guys are Alright !!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Bear


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## fpmich (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm goning to have to bookmark my own thread,  just so I can find all this info again.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

Finally got that stupid two day delayed fish smoked today, even though it did rain for a few minutes on me.  Won't be the last time, I'm sure.

*Anyway the results:*

Because of being in brine for 48 hours, it still is a little too salty tasting for me.  I can't imagine what 4 cups of TQ n a gallon water would be like.   Of course I imagine you would only brine it for a couple of hours or so at that strength.  For now, I will just brine without cure, until I get some cure #1 ordered.  Then I can control the salt to my liking.

Being left in fridge for 36-40 hours instead of 12 hours, developed on heck of a pellicle!  Almost like a shrink wrap.  LOL  Makes it kind of hard to eat.  I did cover it with saran wrap last night trying to stop it from becoming too dry, but was too late.  The fact it was a little freezer burnt from being frozen for a year in my brothers freezer in a bag tied with bread tie wrap didn't help texture any either.  LOL.

Flavor, too salty even though I rinsed it under cold running well water in a pan for over an hour.   Should have used more sugar/sweetener.

Lime?  Not too fond of that flavor in there myself.  I think just one lemon and one orange would've worked better.

*Definitely No Lime next time.*   Just took a sip of beer and could taste lime from the piece I ate a couple of hours ago.

It's edible, but I've made much better.  I've also had worse a time or two, from other sources, but not much worse.

Think I'll give ALL of this, back to my brother. <grin>  And make some fresh caught and frozen ones, my son and his wife brought me today for my sis and I.  LOL

*Mr T.*   I decided not to start at such a low temp, because of extra time in fridge with this one, I didn't want to risk taking too long.

I started with preheated grill/smoker at about 145* for an hour.  IT was about 70*.  Bumped to about 175-185* for an hour.  IT about 120*.  Bumped again to 195-200* for almost an hour and IT was still only 125*.  So as I didn't want to waste any more fuel, bringing it high enough to get it to an IT of 150*.  I pre-heated oven to 275* and put it in there.  It finally hit IT of 145* almost exactly at the 4 hour mark from fridge.  Took it to 150* IT and then turned oven off, opened door, and left it in there for awhile to dry a bit more after wiping milky stuff off.







    Yeah, yeah....  I know.  I'll start posting pic's when I can make something look good.  LOL


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 19, 2013)

Frank, the plan was good the only issues I see are...A taste test before the pellicle rest would have shown it too salty and another hour or so in fresh water would fix that. The Salmon was spot on at 145°, the extra 5° caused the fat and juices to ooze, white stuff. I think you would be happier if you just pulled it and let it rest on the counter. Lime can be strong but goes with Ginger well. Especally Candied Ginger. If you have quite a bit left you may like the recipe below. It will balance the Salt and Lime flavor...JJ

Gingered Smoked Salmon Spread

1Lb Cream Cheese...Room Temp

1/2C Mayonnaise

1/4C Sour Cream

1Tbs Soy Sauce, low sodium

1tsp Hot Sauce...Sriracha (Asian) or other

1/4tsp Black Pepper

1Lb Smoked Salmon...or other Smoked Fish, Flaked

1/4C Chopped Crystalized Ginger

1/4C Chopped Scallion

Process the first 6 ingredients until smooth...

For Fine Spread...add remaining and Pulse to desire consistency...

For Chunky Spread...Fold in remaining with a spatula...


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## fpmich (Oct 19, 2013)

I did do a taste test after rinsing in a fry pan Chef JJ.  That is why I ran it under cold water into a pan or an hour.  It not inedible salty, just too salty for my taste.   If I would have used more sugar, it probably would've balanced out better

And as for making into something else, to mask or tone down flavor, I just messaged my brother and told him it was ready for pick up.

Easier that way.  LOL

I did tell him about my concerns though as to final product.  But what the heck?  He's the one who left in a freezer for a year.

And whoever fillet that fish, must have used a chain or crosscut saw.  Never saw such a butchered fish.  Yeah, I know, it didn't have nothing to do with the way I processed and cooked it, but it still cracked me up.  Told my wife, I could have made a cleaner filet with a cut off can lid.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 19, 2013)

fpmich said:


> I did do a taste test after rinsing in a fry pan Chef JJ.  That is why I ran it under cold water into a pan or an hour.  It not inedible salty, just too salty for my taste.


I meant a second fry and test after the one hour soak. My wife thought I was nuts back when I was playing with brines for Bacon. I would taste test...Soak...Taste again...Soak....Taste again...over an over until it was right. Eventually I got the salt content to the point where I can pull from the brine, rinse and start working on the pellicle...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 19, 2013)

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted.  DUH!  Lesson learned.

Hey!  it was a good lesson.  right?


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 19, 2013)

Hell yeah! You will nail the next Batch...JJ


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## fpmich (Oct 21, 2013)

*Your comments and suggestions are very welcome to me.*

With my 1st batch the pellicle side was WAY TOO DRY and tough.  Combination of excess dry time and too high of heat at end, I would guess.

The obnoxious lime flavor and saltiness,  kind of mellowed out after a couple of days in fridge in Ziplocks.

So... here is my plan for this next batch of fresh caught salmon from son.  Frozen first, and now thawed.

*  My Guessing Game of Brine for 1 gal. of well water brine * (Doesn't that Guessing Game thing, just make you shudder?)
 1 c. TQ  Forget the TQ.  Just read as *1 c. Salt. * I'm not trying to cure, just salt the brine and finish up what TQ I have.
 1/2 c Splenda
 3/4 c. Brown sugar
 1 T. Molasses
 1 Orange, sliced and squeezed
 1 Lemon, sliced and squeezed
 4 Bay leaves
 5 Garlic cloves, slightly smashed
 1/2 t. dill weed
 1 med. onion, sliced
 
 Brine for 18 hrs.  Air dry for 2 - 3 hrs. with fan
 Smoke @ 175* for 1 hour. then bump to 190*-200* and smoke until 140*-145* IT.  Whatever time it takes to flake well.

I think this will give me a shorter cook time, and a more moist fish.

*Thanks for your input.*


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 21, 2013)

Some of the best recipes are the simplest.  Have you even considered one?

The above recipe is one that is confusing to me.  It is still a weak brine if curing is a consideration, not one I would air dry at room temperature.  Splenda, why not sugar?  Brown sugar and molasses, why not just use dark brown sugar?  Orange and lemon?  I would be concerned about the acid breaking the salmon down.  Still don't understand why you want to move the temps around, just cook it, make it easy on yourself and you will enjoy smoking much more.

 Seriously consider starting with a very simple recipe, TQ and sugar using Morton's recommended amounts, make additions one at a time until you find whatever taste you like.  Plan on it taking time to discover the perfect product for yourself as yours is most likely different than anyone else's.

Tom


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## pigbark (Oct 21, 2013)

Mortons TQ brine mixture for Salmon is 1 3/4 Cup TQ per Gal of water for each 5 lbs of meat, cure time is 16 hrs refrigerated...


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## fpmich (Oct 21, 2013)

Quote:


Mr T 59874 said:


> Some of the best recipes are the simplest.  Have you even considered one?  Yes, I'm not total idiot, just pulling my recipe out of the air.
> 
> I work with what I have learned so far, which isn't much, I'll grant you that.
> 
> ...


That all explained, you'll be happy to know that I did kick up the salt to 1 1/2 c. and only used 1/2 the lemon, and 1/2 the orange. Wife bought the biggest they had. LOL Also, this will be in brine now for 24 to 30 hours and then on racks in fridge for 12 to 18 hours before smoking. Plans change by outside forces beyond our control sometimes.

In now way, do I want you to feel this post as argumentative.

Just trying to explain why I did what, and learning from other comments. I'm here to learn.

I took offense at something sent me in a PM, which they didn't mean to. But sometimes it happens.

If I ever just jump the gun, give me a day to reconsider, before taking offense. Deal?

Typing is a lot harder than talking when trying to convey ideas.  Regardless of smiley faces.

If I could talk with  3,4 or 5 people, even on phone, it would save me a year of typing in a forum.  Right?


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## pigbark (Oct 22, 2013)

your salt is still to low if you are now calling TQ -salt @1 1/2 cup to preserve... the info above is rite out of their booklet...Hope that helps..

not trying to pick on you, but I think Splenda makes a brown sugar..


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## fpmich (Oct 23, 2013)

*PigBark*, I'm starting to understand just a bit here  that my salt is way too low for safety.  I was trying to avoid too salty fish.

After much more reading, & more reading, I think I can balance out salt by using much more sugar or sweeteners than I am using.  Right?

Yes, I know Splenda makes a brown sugar, but can't find it locally yet, so have to use my molasses quick fix for now.  If or when I find it without paying shipping, I will probably 3/4 Brown Splenda to 1/4 real brown, when smoking for the diabetics.

Still could use a simple explanation of what Preserving, Curing, and just Smoking are.

*Mr. T.  Thank you for PM. ... I've seen your fish brine recipe here and on other forums.*    I had it bookmarked before in fact.

It was just the salt amount, that threw me off from it.

But I see you use a "much higher" ratio of sugar to salt.  (approximately 4 to 1. (4=sugar & 1=salt)

than I've been using (1 to 1 roughly).  I didn't notice your ratio until now.

Does that make the fish sweet, or just balanced with still a slight taste of salt?  I like a slight salt taste.

*Update on current batch:*

Was in weak brine for 32 hours.  Nuked a piece to test, and tasted okay.  Back to fry pan next time though.  Did not like that steamed fish texture at all.  LOL  I was just trying not to have to clean the skillet for just one bite of food. 

Not as salty as my 1st batch, even though I used more salt.  I think maybe it was the fact I was dealing with a year old fish, that caused problems.

Current batch is now drying in fridge on racks for about 12 hours.  That should eliminate the fan/room temp thing.

I will use Mr. T's suggestion of 200* start to finish this time, instead of starting low to high.  Using apple and Maple for smoke.

I think maybe I will brush a diluted Maple Syrup before smoking, on a couple of pieces just for me, to see how I like it that way.

Will let you know how this comes out.

*Next batch in 2-3 days, I will try Mr T's recipe.*    But only if he lets me know on the sweetness thing.  U Listening mf?

That should use the rest of the TQ plus some Kosher.  Then you may not hear me mention TQ again.  LOL

Still adding my own flavor ingredients though.  They really "are" good flavors to me.  You can't break me from those.


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## fpmich (Oct 23, 2013)

*Mr. T*    Because of my sleep patterns, or lack there of, I never know when I can do anything on time.  That is why I like a brine that will be OK at 12-24 hours and as long as 48 hours.  *Do I have to adjust your recipe *to take into consideration possible longer brine times?

I sleep in increments, both bed and chair.  Usually up all night and sleep in bed for 3-4 hours, getting up to pee at least once.  Seldom get back to sleep after that.  So I doze in my chair at inopportune times, like when wife is talking to me, or meat is in smoker.  I do have ET732 so at least alarm will wake me sooner or later.  LOL


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## fpmich (Oct 24, 2013)

*Here is how it went today.*   Well, technically, yesterday now.

Time 1st column

Smoker 2nd column

Internal temp 3rd column

4:00 42*  40* IT  *I started with a totally cold smoker*.  Dumped in a chimney of hot coals, put fish in smoker.  It was sleeting as I did this.  I thought the slow start would help finish the pellicle formation.  It probably did, but just added to my spent outdoors and seemed to dry the fish out a little too much.

4:30 180* 82* IT  added smoke wood
5:00 210* 111* IT
5:30 185* 124* IT
6:00 215* 124* IT
6:30 210* 124* IT  Let smoke wood burn out.
6:45 225* 129 IT no smoke added from here on.
7:00 239* 138* IT
7:20 230* 144* IT

smoker temps started to drop and fish IT didn't rise above 144*
brought inside to 300* oven.
Fish temp dropped to 135* while I was getting it off smoker and into house.

7:30 oven 300* 135*
7:50 oven 300* 145*   Removed and rested.  Temp stayed @ 145 for 7 or 8 minutes then started cooling down.  Let it cool down for 15-20 minutes and then placed fish in fridge on racks to finish cooling completely before putting into zip bags.

Fish seem to be a little more dry than I like and the outside is harder than I like too.

So next time, I will start them off at higher temp, pre-heated smoker as Mr. T has suggested.  See?  I "_can_" learn Tom! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Tasted okay, but withholding judgment until after a day or two of mellowing and melding flavors out.   What it taste like still warm from smoker, is not what it tastes like two days later chilled, I've learned.

Next batch is coming up in a day or so.  Took fish out of freezer night before last to thaw.

This batch will be for myself, so I won't have to mess with the Splenda.  *Brown sugar and Maple Syrup all the way!*   Can't wait!


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## pigbark (Oct 24, 2013)

Hope it turns out good for ya- the trial and error is the part I like most...

Hey, have you ever heard of taking a piece of Salmon and a piece of cheese and wrapping it up and setting something heavy on it to smash it down,while in the fridge? my friend does his like that and calls it something, I dunno, I just eat it... really good..


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## fpmich (Oct 25, 2013)

*I did another taste test today and it had mellowed pretty well*.  A tad too salty, but not bad.  Citrus flavor is now just a hint.  Could've used more sweet.  I think maybe the Splenda thing is throwing that off a bit.  I'm new to using it.  It says 1 to 1 with sugar, but I don't know about that.  Plus when I brine fowl for baking I always just went with 1 to 1 salt and sugar.

This fish is definitely a little too dry for most people I think.  I don't mind it so much, but I'm think my sis will.  Of course some, store bought smoked fish has been even drier and much more salty than this is.  So if it don't meet her approval, she can smoke her own.  LOL  Actually she can't do that now, so I am trying to make the best I can for her.  I may have to only give her a piece or two of this one, and then give her another batch when/if it turns out right.

*I am very thankful* that my son and wife had such good success this year, and is willing to let me experiment and learn with some of it.

Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would be experimenting 3-4 filets at a time.  I wish he would have frozen them separately.  Then when I screwed up it wouldn't be on such a big batch. But at least I'm getting a chance to learn my temps, times, fire tending, brining and etc. in a much shorted time frame than if I only tried to do one filet a time or a year.  I've been having a ball learning!

*PigBark,* that sound interesting.  I imagine a soft cheese, like goat cheese, or Harvati's would work?  Or does he use  something cheddar or Jack?


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## fpmich (Oct 26, 2013)

*Mr. T  You suggested a simple brine,* so I've done one.

I used your ration of water sugar and salt. 1/2 c. + 2 c. sugar per quart. (4 to 1 sugar to salt)

I finished up my TQ with this.

*Here is what I mixed.*

2 c. TQ salt

1 gal. water

8 c. Brown sugar.  (light brown tho' -- My Wife 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






 ,... Sheesh!)

 I also substituted 1 3/4 c. Real Maple Syrup (all I had left), for the same amount of sugar, & I had to use 1/2 c. Slpenda to get ratio of sugar to salt.

5 or 6 Bay leaves.  I'm out now.  Your recipe would have used 16 for a gal. of brine.  _Man!  I ran out of everything today!  LOL_

I only gave a few shakes of garlic powder into it instead of 4 Tbsp. because it just bought, and was potent.

*That's it.  No citrus, no pepper, no spice.   Nothing else.*

Boiled water, salt, and bay leaves & let cool a little bit, then added the rest and stirred until dissolved completely & let stand for an hour.  Then cooled in sink of cold water and placed in fridge until brine was 45*  It will finally be 38*-40* in fridge while finishing brining.

*I'm still "VERY" nervous about the salt and sugar amounts, *because I'm experimenting on 3-4 whole salmon fillets at a time.

Because of some heath pain/issues right now I may not get to smoke for 2-3 day or more, I cut fillets in chunks about 8"-10" long x however wide it was, because I figure the larger pieces may take longer to absorb brine than the smaller pieces I usually do, and maybe not get too salty.  I will take tail (thinner sections) out of brine at 12 hours or so.  Wrap in saran wrap until I take out the larger hunks.  Then unwrap & dry them in fridge on racks at same time.

Plan on smoking in pre-heated CG to 225*-235* or so, right from the start until done at 145*  Trying to avoid too dry a fish.

I also will try to smoke larger pieces this time, rather than portion before smoking.  I'm hoping that will cut down on the dryness that I have been experiencing.  I will cut into portions after smoking.  Does this make any sense at all to anyone?


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 26, 2013)

Separate your pieces into like sizes large and small then smoke separately.  This will keep you from having to open the smoker to remove the smaller pieces while leaving the larger ones in.  Remember to start backing off on the heat when the salmon reaches 140°.

Good luck and have fun.  Sounds like you are already.

Tom


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## pigbark (Oct 26, 2013)

Frank I think he uses a cream cheese..

as far as taste goes, don't be scared of the salt/sugr ratio you have... a lot of rubs start with a salt/sugar  combination  3 Tbls sugar to 1 tbls  salt for balance up to 6 or more for that candy sweet flavor...


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## fpmich (Oct 27, 2013)

*HA HA!   It seems I've have managed to hijacked my own thread, from cure questions*, to a fish smoking thread. 

(Probably won't be the last time I do something like this.)

I brined the thinner pieces for 12 hours, and thick portions for 18 hours in above posted brine.

Rinsed well, soaked for an hour or so, and put them in zip bags in very bottom crisper drawer of fridge, until I am able to move around enough, to smoke them in 2 or 3 days. (hopefully)  Temp in crisper is about 36*-39*

*So back to cures...* for tonight anyway.

Wondering....

Now that I have used correct amounts of cure in my fish brine,

1.  Do I still have to abide by the 40*/140*/4 hour rule, and still cook to 145*  IT temp?

2.  Or can I smoke at lower temps and quit when fish flakes to my liking, regardless of IT temp & time?

3.  Does using correct amount of cure  mean it will last much longer at 40* in fridge, or for a few hours @ ambient temps?

*Please, *

*no more charts and formula's for now.  *Just smoker to smoker talk.  Straight forward, person to person OK?  :)

I barely graduated high school.  LOL.  I'm still reading links & charts, etc. and trying to understand, but they often are difficult to understand.  ppm?  How in the heck can I figure that in my kitchen?  Grams? forget it, I never learned metric.  Weight? same thing, forget it.  No scale.  I use cups, TBS and tsp.  Only ounce I use, is liquid ounces, and that is usually in a drink.

That's why I'm using a wet brine. Gal. Cup. TBS. tsp.  I can do fractions somewhat.  LOL

------------------------

And if you think of it, and believe, say a short prayer that my pain will resolve soon.


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## pigbark (Oct 27, 2013)

you still have to fully cook the fish... ...you don't wanna know what Mortons guide says on temp for Salmon, 160* for 30 minutes- kill it dead and dry it out LOl..Im sure they are being on the super safe side.

the 40 140 4 is a safety guideline that I have only heard  for Poultry until I came here... Ill be honest, im not up to date on it enough to say one way or the other.. On some meats it makes no sense to me because the finish temp is over 158* which is the instantaneous kill it dead temp... on lower temp stuff like Bacon that ya take to 145 or there about, you still end up frying it on the stove...

I do keep it in the back of my mind on Pork Loin, I been making a lot of them here lately.. the way I do it I try to pull it rite out of the fridge and have it on the smoker in 10 to 15 minutes.. its been taking me rite at 3.5 hrs to cook a half Loin 145* to 148* it gives me 30 mins extra,, my fridge is set around 36* to 38*... that's the only cut I watch, I never got sick in the past before I even heard of it to be honest... .... ???? ....


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## fpmich (Oct 27, 2013)

*See?   THAT'S what I don't get,* PigBark.

Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.

I think I understand that cure #1 (nitrite) is quick acting, and cure #2 (nitrate) is slow acting.

I can understand using cure #2 for air drying or aging meat for long times.

But what the heck is the reason of cure #1,  if same time and temps, is same as just cooking fish or meats to temps?

Still  Confused about CURES ??


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## Bearcarver (Oct 27, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *Please, *
> 
> *no more charts and formula's for now.  *Just smoker to smoker talk.  Straight forward, person to person OK?  :)
> 
> ...


fpmich,

When you get tired of all the hassle, go below to "Smoked Salmon" in my Signature. No charts, no links, no PPMs, no grams, no metric crap. Just plain old Made in USA ingredient list, and easy to follow step by step instructions & suggestions. Try it---Everyone who tried it loves it.

And a prayer sent to you for some back pain relief.

Bear


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## pigbark (Oct 27, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *See?   THAT'S what I don't get,* PigBark.
> 
> Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.
> 
> ...


I totally understand...


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## daveomak (Oct 27, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *See?   THAT'S what I don't get,* PigBark.
> 
> Why use cure, if you have to take it to same temp in same time?  Makes no sense to me.  Those temps are no different than cooking on stove or oven.
> 
> ...


Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  cure kills botulism.....  above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....   

In your oven in the kitchen, the food is not in an oxygen depleted atmosphere......   

We do this curing stuff for a good reason and try to pass on the info for educational purposes....  safety is number one....   

We are here to help.....     

Dave


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## Bearcarver (Oct 27, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  cure kills botulism.....  above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....
> 
> In your oven in the kitchen, the food is not in an oxygen depleted atmosphere......
> 
> ...


Hi Dave!!

I think one of your fingers misspoke. That would be between 40* and 140*.

Bear


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## daveomak (Oct 27, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > Frank, afternoon.......  Using cure is a safety measure...  When smoking meats, the oxygen depleted atmosphere, that is between 40 and 240 degrees is a perfect environment to grow botulism....  *cure kills botulism*.....  *above 240, the temp kills botulism spores....  *
> ...


Bear, evening......  I think you did not read my post......   Botulism spores grow while botulism is active....  it is active to about 180 ish degrees... not exactly sure about that temp......  but........ the spores are not killed until the temp of 240 deg F.....  The temp you pressure cook food at.... 

If the botulism is growing, it could me leaving spores......    All of this is in an oxygen reduced environment.......   If the spores are active, they could continue to grow while the food cools to refer temp or something like that.....  especially if you wrap the meat in aluminum foil and put it in an insulated box to keep warm.....   aluminum foil, if wrapped tightly on meat, is air tight and botulism can grow....    Folks have died from baked potatoes wrapped in foil and kept warm until serving time....     I'm not saying it will happen, but the very small possibility is there..... 

I'll probably get banned for pointing out this error, in the public forum.....    But.....  I did not want folks to have a misconceived idea about food safety.....  After all, food safety is number 1...... 

See ya later........  Dave


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## fpmich (Oct 28, 2013)

*OK  We're making some progress* I think.

So cure #1 or TQ only keeps botulism chances low while cooking, but still have to cook to safe temps within 4 hours.

That answers these 2 questions.


> 1.  Do I still have to abide by the 40*/140*/4 hour rule, and still cook to 145*  IT temp?
> 
> 2.  Or can I smoke at lower temps and quit when fish flakes to my liking, regardless of IT temp & time?


Still need answer to this question


> 3.  Does using correct amount of cure, mean it will last much longer at 40* in fridge, or for a few hours @ ambient temps?


And it brings up a new question for me.

4.  *Why is "cold smoking" under 90* safe for hours, or days, safe,* with, or without a cure, other than salt/sugar, but hot smoking longer than four hours before it reaches  IT of 140*, is not?

I appreciate the patience and efforts you have all made, in trying to educate a total newbie.

I must seem pretty dense to you all, and I am sometimes.  But when I DO understand something fully in my mind, then it stays with me.

It just takes a lot of repetition and explainions to get me there sometimes.  I apologize to all of you for that.  I really do appreciate your kindness in helping.


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## stovebolt (Oct 28, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *OK  We're making some progress* I think.
> 
> So cure #1 or TQ only keeps botulism chances low while cooking, but still have to cook to safe temps within 4 hours.
> 
> That answers these 2 questions.


   Cured meat needs to be cooked to a safe temp to kill pathogens that may be present, it does not need to be done within the 4 hour time like uncured meat.

Chuck


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## fpmich (Oct 28, 2013)

stovebolt said:


> Cured meat needs to be cooked to a safe temp to kill pathogens that may be present, it does not need to be done within the 4 hour time like uncured meat.
> 
> Chuck


AHHH!....  So more progress on my questions.

If cured properly to time and strength,* then longer time can be taken*, but IT still has to reach recommended safe temps.  Right?


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## fpmich (Oct 28, 2013)

Bear,

I noticed in your recipe that*  you didn't use "any" cure #1 or TQ, *  but 1/2 cup salt, plus 6 Oz. to 2 qt. liquid, (1 c. salt, plus 12 oz. soy to gallon)

(I don't know how much salt in in soy sauce, but I'll assume the two together equals 1 1/4 -1 1/2 c. salt combined)

And you've slowly reached 134* IT at the 3 1/2 hour mark, then  to take them off when they reach 145*.  So far so good.

Except... you are using much less salty brine than I was told to use,  and you say* "How long this takes doesn't matter,  *just so they go to 145* IT".

What am I missing, or not picking up on?  It seems opposite to all I've been told.

It's easy for me to be confused.  This can't be that hard.  Millions of people smoke fish at home, and they don't all have internet.  LOL


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## Bearcarver (Oct 28, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Bear, evening......  I think you did not read my post......   Botulism spores grow while botulism is active....  it is active to about 180 ish degrees... not exactly sure about that temp......  but........ the spores are not killed until the temp of 240 deg F.....  The temp you pressure cook food at....
> 
> If the botulism is growing, it could me leaving spores......    All of this is in an oxygen reduced environment.......   If the spores are active, they could continue to grow while the food cools to refer temp or something like that.....  especially if you wrap the meat in aluminum foil and put it in an insulated box to keep warm.....   aluminum foil, if wrapped tightly on meat, is air tight and botulism can grow....    Folks have died from baked potatoes wrapped in foil and kept warm until serving time....     I'm not saying it will happen, but the very small possibility is there.....
> 
> ...


OK, I didn't read yours right. I took it as the normal 40* to 140* in 4 hours rule. The 240* your talking about is over my head.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Oct 28, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Bear,
> 
> I noticed in your recipe that*  you didn't use "any" cure #1 or TQ, *  but 1/2 cup salt, plus 6 Oz. to 2 qt. liquid, (1 c. salt, plus 12 oz. soy to gallon)
> 
> ...


*Bear*


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## pigbark (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks guys for the helpful posts about the low Oxygen levels and cured and uncured meats with times provided.. It makes it easier to understand why cures are used and when they are actually needed..


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## fpmich (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks Bear.  That helps me understand a little better I think.  I didn't know about the 39 to 135.  I've only seen the 40 to 140 in 4.

So let's see if I have this straight.

As long as fish, meat, or poultry is brought to the 140 IT in under 4 hours, then after that it doesn't matter if it takes another 2 or 3 hours to hit the safe temp for that food type.

For instance

If a turkey had reached 140 in under 4 hours, but needed additional 2 to 3+ hours to reach 165-180 mark, it would still be considered safe because it reached the 1st mark in under 4 hours, and hit the final mark before being consumed.

Do I have it right?

And this would apply to any meat, whether cured or fresh?   Just hit the 1st mark in less than 4 hours, and then 2nd mark before consuming.

And using a cure is just for added safety and flavor in some meats.

I think I am beginning to understand.  Somebody needs to turn the light bulb on over my head now. :)


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## fpmich (Oct 29, 2013)

Now I have another question on smoking fish.

If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.

I still need  previous post on temps answered as well.

Who says you can't teach an old dog.....  I'm gaining on it!

Pretty soon I'll be able to roll over and shake hands.  But not at the same time.  HA!


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 29, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Now I have another question on smoking fish.
> 
> If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.
> 
> ...


If you wait until the IT hits 145° before reducing the smoker temp, the carryover will take the fish to a higher temperature and dry it out.  You don't want to let the salmon to go over 145, but hold it there for a half hour. This may take some experience on your part.

As far as your temp questions, you are getting the idea.  Keep in mind though, there is a difference in properly cured foods and fresh.  A little research on that would be helpful.

Tom


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## pigbark (Oct 29, 2013)

wont be long and you can cold smoke it all day, if the temps are in the mid 30s let r rip ...

I am not a huge Salmon fan but I don't believe I have had it smoked.. I like just about anything smoked so I guess im gonna have to try it out...

I don't think I would cook it fast and hit it heavy at the end with smoke.. You need moisture and/or humidity for the smoke to stick to the fish. I guess if you are using water if might be ok but seems to me my meats taste better when I hit em with smoke early sometimes before I even heat the MES up.. I don't run water in my unit, imo its not needed because of airflow.. it only has about 3/4'' inlet air with about 5X that  or more on the exhaust..

in post 101- sounds like you got it 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  the rest is trial and error on your recipe and smoke times  etc. The more ya smoke, the better you get... at least that's the idea, sometimes I take a step in the wrong direction LOL...


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## Bearcarver (Oct 29, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Thanks Bear.  That helps me understand a little better I think.  I didn't know about the 39 to 135.  I've only seen the 40 to 140 in 4. *The 40* to 140* is generally accepted on this forum. I only mentioned the other because you were making mine sound unsafe (unintentionally).*
> 
> So let's see if I have this straight.
> 
> ...


*Now I'll really confuse you:*

*If you get a whole large piece of meat (Butt, Brisket, Chucky, etc), and don't inject it or puncture it in any way, and don't stick a temp probe in it before you start. Then wait 2 or 3 hours at 200* or above smoker temp, before sterilizing & inserting your temp probe, you don't have to get it to 140* in under 4 hours. This does not include poultry or ground meat.*

*Bear*


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## Bearcarver (Oct 29, 2013)

fpmich said:


> Now I have another question on smoking fish.
> 
> If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do that. It would add some smoke, but definitely do some drying.

If you use 230-240* & smoke it to 145* in 1 1/2 to 2 hours, you just made Dinner. Should be soft & flaky for eating with a fork, but you won't be able to pick it up & eat it like my "Snacking Smoked Salmon".

Bear


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 29, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> I wouldn't do that. It would add some smoke, but definitely do some drying.
> 
> If you use 230-240* & smoke it to 145* in 1 1/2 to 2 hours, you just made Dinner. Should be soft & flaky for eating with a fork, but you won't be able to pick it up & eat it like my "Snacking Smoked Salmon".
> 
> Bear


Oh my,  don't believe that you cannot eat my salmon like a snack, everyone around here does.  It is definitely not a dinner fillet.

Tom


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## Bearcarver (Oct 29, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Oh my,  don't believe that you cannot eat my salmon like a snack, everyone around here does.  It is definitely not a dinner fillet.
> 
> Tom


Sheeesh-----I wasn't talking about your Salmon, and I didn't think you Smoked yours for 2 hours or less at 230* or 240*.

My point was if you cook it for under 2 hours at 230-240* you can't pick it up in your fingers & bite pieces off to eat it, or put it in a baggie & into your shirt pocket when you go fishing. Are you telling me you could???  And it wouldn't fall apart?? C'mon Tom.

There are a few different ways of preparing & eating Salmon, and I'll be the first to admit that my Snacking Salmon is not for Dinner. It's not for eating with a fork from a Dinner Plate With Veggies.

Bear


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 29, 2013)

Bearcarver said:


> Sheeesh-----I wasn't talking about your Salmon, and I didn't think you Smoked yours for 2 hours or less at 230* or 240*.
> 
> My point was if you cook it for under 2 hours at 230-240* you can't pick it up in your fingers & bite pieces off to eat it, or put it in a baggie & into your shirt pocket when you go fishing. Are you telling me you could???  And it wouldn't fall apart?? C'mon Tom.
> 
> Bear


 Bear,  I smoke mine at 200° for aprox. 1.5 hours to an IT of 145°.

Shirt pocket?  It will hold even in a saddle bag.  Keep in mind that I use a stronger cure than you, it does make a difference in the end product.

Tom


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## Bearcarver (Oct 29, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Bear,  I smoke mine at 200° for aprox. 1.5 hours to an IT of 145°.
> 
> Shirt pocket?  It will hold even in a saddle bag.  Keep in mind that I use a stronger cure than you, it does make a difference in the end product.
> 
> Tom


That's a whole different ballgame. Mine are smoked. Yours are cured & preserved.


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## fpmich (Oct 29, 2013)

*Well, guys.... I do believe you've done it! *

Somehow in the last couple of pages, somebody worded it in such a way, that things started clicking for me.  I've even re read the entire thread now, and what I couldn't understand before, now makes sense to me.  Hell, I may even look at some charts & graphs again.  LOL

I didn't know about not putting probe in while still raw.  Never thought about it I guess.  So from now on probe stays in bag until after food has cooked awhile.

Thanks for staying with me on this subject guys.  I sure do appreciate your patience.

Thank you all so much.  Give yourself a pat on the back and have a cold one on me.


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## fpmich (Oct 31, 2013)

*Mr T.  Your ratios of TQ, or salt/sugar/water was spot on!  *

Can't wait to try some of Bear and Dave's recipes.  But I think that will have to wait for next season, if my sone will give me some.  LOL

Really surprised me.  LOL

Took a couple small tastes while still warn, and licked my lips for four hours afterwards!  Some of that may have been the real maple syrup too.  I used all maple except for one hunk of apple wood, to smoke it.  But for the life of me, I can't understand how you get to 140-145 IT within 2 hours @ 200*.  Here is how mine went.  *See this new thread.*


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## mr t 59874 (Oct 31, 2013)

Glad you enjoyed. Now you have learned the importance of balancing other ingredients while using the proper amount of salt.  Will check out your thread.

Tom


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## fpmich (Nov 25, 2013)

*This thread is still about cures.   Right?*    So....... Here we go again!

I got side tracked with the fish, because that was what I was doing at the time.

Cure #1 amounts. OK, I've got the 1 tsp. for 5 lbs meat ratio, sliced or ground, for non-brined meat.

Then, I've got Pops brine of 1 TBsp per gal for wet brining.

*But... what if I am doing smaller amounts of meat with just a marinade?* Like for 2.5 - 3 lb of sliced jerky meat.  How do I figure out amt of cure?

Should I brine it first in Pops brine for 12-24 hours, _"then"_ put in marinade for flavor for a few hours,

or... should I weigh meat, marinating seasonings & the small amounts of liquid together,

and then follow the 1 tsp to 5 lb rule for total weight of both liquid and meat/seasonings?

I hope I asked this right and it makes sense to you.


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## daveomak (Nov 25, 2013)

*... should I weigh meat, marinating seasonings & the small amounts of liquid together,

and then follow the 1 tsp to 5 lb rule for total weight of both liquid and meat/seasonings?*


Frank, morning.....  That is an acceptable method for curing thin cuts of meat like jerky....  It's called an "equilibrium" brine.....   As small of an amount of liquid, that can be used effectively, is preferred...   example: 1 cup of liquid with all the ingredients added, per pound of meat.. (if that cup of liquid will wet all the surfaces....) ...  Then massage the bag or stir the meat, in the liquid, a couple times per day, for 1-2 days....  rinse lightly and dry on paper towels and process normally.....

Hope I explained that OK......    Dave


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## fpmich (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks Dave.

Let me double check what I've done.  I've already done it, so I can't change that,

but just want to double check my safety margins, before I, or anyone eats any of the jerky.

This was a test batch.  About 2.4 lb of meat, sliced 3/8" X 3/4".  I added my1/3 c. soy, 1/4 c. w-sauce, spices, sugar, water and 1/2 tsp. cure #1.

Mixed well, and combined with meat.  Total weight of meat *and* liquid was then 4.1 lb.

This should make my cure at a little more than 1/2 the maximum, but still over the minimum.  Not sure how much over. 

But I think it falls within the max and min range.  Right or wrong?  *If it's too much cure, then I'll toss it,* and take my beating from my sweetie.  LOL

If it is just a little too light on cure, then I'll still go ahead with it.

____________________________________________________

I won't be able to use smoker as I had planned to. Weather, and two thanksgiving dinners on wed and Thur.

My options are:

I can dry it tomorrow after about 17-18 hours in cure/marinade, or wait until 3-4 days have passed.

I can dry it in oven between 160*-180*, or use my Excalibur dehydrator.  Never done jerky in dehydrator before, always oven.

But now that we've upgraded the stove, I'm stuck with that _"not below 170* setting"_  thing and no pilot light.  Hate that!

I have reset, calibrated, or whatever, the stove to -35* from factory setting.  But it still will only go to 160* before lighting again, and reaches 180 just after it shuts off.  This is checked with Maverick at med level grate.   It's going to take a lot of baby sitting.  More than the smoker I think.  LOL

I may have to haul out my little computer fan thingy again, and set it outside the cracked oven door.

_______________________________________

*EVERYONES thoughts are appreciated.*

*Thanks,*


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## daveomak (Nov 26, 2013)

Frank, morning.....  Let's figure it out......   1 tsp. / 5#'s is approx. 156 Ppm cure....
soooooo,  if everything was close to OK, then 1/2 tsp / 2.4 #'s = 162.5 Ppm ...  (2.5/2.4x156)  then adding the other stuff to total 4.1 #'s...
figures...  2.5/4.1x156 = 95 Ppm....  theoretically.....
OK, now for the disclaimer....   Since, if I remember correctly, 100 Ppm cure #1 should be the minimum ingoing allowed for commercial curing etc.....  Since you are not commercial, and you will not be smoking in a reduced oxygen atmosphere, which would be a situation where botulism would likely form, and you will be drying at above 160 ish......   
You are well within all guidelines I can think of...   Bacteria will be done in....  No botulism forming situations...   

I'd eat it.....   Dave


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## fpmich (Nov 28, 2013)

You lost me again in calculations.  It's easy to do. 

*I "DID" pass basic algebra,* in HS,

*but only with a D-minus, *and that was only because teacher didn't want me in her class another year.  LOL   TRUE!!

So,, what is the "2.5" you are using in your calculation of (2.5/2.4x156)?


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## fpmich (Nov 28, 2013)

*To Everyone.  Please help with good curing info.*

I've been reading via Google, and in these forums too, about cures.  Every time I think I have a handle on it, it seems to changes.

I understand the different *terms *between "True" Dry Cures,  Dry Brine, and Wet Brine,

I guess the amounts of cure is much higher for true dry cures, and may use nitrates as well and take weeks to months/years to mature. 

Not for me right now.  Too new, no facilities and no patience for months of curing time.

So for now, I only need to learn short/semi short cures, using cure #1.  AKA Dry brining and wet brining/injecting.

*1.  Do dry brines use a different a different ratio of cure to meat, than wet and/or injection type brining? * If so, how do I calculate each, Or Better Yet, where do I find an online calculator for each.

*2.  Just what is an  "equilibrium" brine?*   And how is it different from a wet brine (such as Pops)

*3.  If using a brine like Pop's,, can I soak meat first for recommend time without salt and sugar (just water and cure#1)*   and then make a seasoning marinade for a day or two?   Will the marinade still be absorbed, or would the just water and cure have stopped that?

*4.  Will "just cure #1 and water" still be absorbed without using salt?*    Or is salt needed to make that absorbing happen?


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## daveomak (Nov 28, 2013)

Morning Frank..... well I apologize for the long winded explanation.... sometimes I get lost in explaining stuff, trying to be thorough... Just the way I am.... _BORING_....  You can skip all the BS and go the the  #### line at the bottom ..... that's where my summation is.... 

If 1 tsp cures 5#'s at 156 Ppm then 1/2 tsp cures 2.5 #'s at 156 Ppm....... 
since you (were planning to) cured 2.4 #'s with 1/2 tsp.,  2.5# / 2.4# = 1.04 times the recommended amount of cure....   X the 156 Ppm expected at the recommended weight... your batch would have been 162.5 Ppm.....   

Then you added water etc. bringing the new total weight up to 4.1 #'s
And you left the cure amount at  1/2 tsp......

If I/2 tsp. makes 156 Ppm nitrite using 2.5 #'s water, meat, sugar spices etc.....  

4.1 #'s of product using 1/2 tsp. cure #1....  we need to figure out what that Ppm nitrite is...

We are diluting the original cure amount by 2.5# / 4.1#.= 0.61....  or 61%    so.... 0.61 x 156 Ppm = 95 Ppm nitrite in the 4.1# mix...

Another way to look at it.....  4.1# / 2.5# = 1.64....  or we used 164% of the recommended amount for the cure#1 we originally had...  represented by these numbers...  156 Ppm / 1.64 = 95 ppm

This krap can get soooooooooo confusing.....  fortunately math came very easy for me.....  Heck, I flunked ART class .... now tell me.... how can you flunk ART....  I got a 5 hour F in 1967..... if you are near my age, you darn well know what a 5 hour F can do in college.....    
I got this letter.....  Dave..... Head straight to the ARMY physical induction center in Seattle.... Do not pass GO....  Do Not collect $200.......

Soooooo, you know how important it was, to me, to pass ART....    I still got an F......

One thing that makes all this cure krap easier, is to convert everything to metric.....  grams etc....   it may take a day or two to get the basics but after that........  easy peasy....  

Metric explanation....

You start with 4.1 #'s of something....  you want it to be 156 Ppm nitrite...  4.1 # x 454 grams/# = 1861 grams of something...
1861 x .000156 = 0.29 grams of nitrite

Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite.....  0.29 / .0625 = 4.6 grams of cure #1 to equal the correct amount of cure #1....  That works out to 1.12 grams of cure #1 per pound of stuff....  

Since brined/massaged meats etc. , according to the USDA, the acceptable levels for INGOING nitrite is between 100-200 Ppm nitrite..... (if you read between the lines) ......  1 gram of cure #1 per pound of meat, falls perfectly between these numbers and you can quit calculating now...
###########################################
Using 1 gram of cure #1, per pound of something, approximately equals 137 Ppm nitrite.... Perfect for most stuff we do here...  It's acceptable... healthy... safe.... and ends one heck of a lot of frustration....  a darn site better than measuring spoons....

So.... get a grams scale...  one that reads to 0.1 or better 0.01 grams and get some calibration weights....  below are examples of scales and calibration weights available also....  there are others......

For safety reasons, when curing food, a good scale or two is recommended....


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## daveomak (Nov 28, 2013)

fpmich said:


> *To Everyone.  Please help with good curing info.*
> I've been reading via Google, and in these forums too, about cures.  Every time I think I have a handle on it, it seems to changes.
> 
> I understand the different *terms *between "True" Dry Cures,  Dry Brine, and Wet Brine,
> ...



*Salt is required as it is the ingredient, (carrier) that makes all this happen...*


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## fpmich (Nov 29, 2013)

*Thank you Dave.*

I appreciate your time spent in explaining what each number is from, and what it represents.  I haven't absorbed it yet, but I will.

That was a very good explanation, in my book.  I almost understood it on first read though.  LOL 

I will come back to it and learn from it though.  Trust me.

As for the salt... I had a pretty good hunch it was needed to help cure to absorb into meat.

I will get back to you and any others, that would like to expand my learning in a couple of days.  I still have questions.

Heck, I'll ALWAYS have questions.  I remind myself of my niece.  Uncle Floyd used to call her "Questions" when she was little.

As in "Oh Oh, here come Questions down the path Cile!"  LOL

Oven drying my jerky right now, and going to try to get some photo's up if I can.

*Can you folks answer another question for me.*

From what I've read, here and there, if using ground meat you have to take it to 160*-165*, regardless if it has cure or not.

But if you are using whole muscle meat (as I am)  Then if using a cure, you do not have to take it to 145*-165*.  Lower IT is acceptable.

If using whole muscle without cure then you should take it to 160*-165* before drying.


> • Jerky Meat With Cure* - Can be cold smoked or dried at low temperatures (under 160°F.) without the risk of spoiling. Making jerky this way allows you to cold smoke jerky in just about any type smokehouse you can fashion. Cure also adds it own unique flavor to the final taste.
> 
> • Jerky Meat Without Cure - Must be cooked or processed at temperatures above 160°F. This method of making jerky has to be done in ovens or smokers that allow the temperature to be regulated and maintained above 160°F.


Do I understand this right?


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## fpmich (Nov 30, 2013)

Here's the results of my jerky oven drying yesterday.

I used lowest setting possible, added this little fan to cracked door.  Worked quite well.













Smoking%20fan.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013






Temps ranged between 158* and 165* mostly.  Couple of spikes to 172* , but only for a minute or two













Smokinghigh.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013





  













Smokingfinish.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013






Taste real good and peppery.













003.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013






Bend test.













004.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013






Fuzzy pic here.  Dry but not too much.













009.JPG



__ fpmich
__ Nov 30, 2013


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 30, 2013)

Greetings Frank. This thread started with a General question on Curing. But has gotten HUGE and hard to follow for other members who may have the same questions. Since you have gone from general curing safety to specific meats. Your last two questions are of a Production theme and not exactly a Safety issue per se. It will be much easier to get answers by posting in the specific forum for each meat, Salmon in Fish, Jerky in the Jerky forum, Etc. This will help other members find the same info as few would even think to follow this thread to the 6th and 7th page to find out how much cure to use in Jerky. Thanks...JJ


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## fpmich (Nov 30, 2013)

*I understand what you're saying Chef JJ, and agree.*

I've ran some forums and know 1st hand, that moderating and suggesting is not always welcomed, nor understood.

It impossible to list all the reasons beforehand. for moderating guidelines.

On some forums they don't want you starting a different thread each time, and some do.  Some don't allow post under 5 - 10 words and some allow 1 per post.  It just takes time to learn what the forums like.  I'll get better at understanding this forum, I hope.

I thought about posting some of the things in new threads, but wanted to keep the info I am learning in same thread, as well as giving feedback to those helping me.  (easier for me to follow the info specific to my questions.

So if I feel I need to add anything about just cures, I'll do it in this thread, but any recipes, and photo's in another thread, and just link to those new threads.

Would that be acceptable?

I do read through all post in this thread from time to time, to better understand.

And when I do, I see posts that either I wish I hadn't posted, or that others hadn't posted that just take up space, like talking about boating and make it harder to read entire thread.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 30, 2013)

Frank, This thread and all threads that you start and reply to are kept forever in your profile to review as desired. This particular forum is specifically for Safety issues. Such as, " The recipe calls for 1 Tablespoon of Cure and I used a teaspoon. Will I get food poisoning? We have a separate forum for Curing and Curing problems and discussion, so that would be the appropriate forum to post any further Curing questions with meat successes in their associated forum...http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/f/3102/curing. While I can leave this forum up for you and others review, it has gotten too far off the discussion of your original Safety issue and moved on from page 2 thru 7 to Fish and Jerky Curing questions. As much as I would like to leave this open for you to have your stuff consolidated in one thread, no individual can have a on going personal thread. With 50,000 members it would be impossible to follow every ones personal thread. This would result in information being lost, unavailable or a thread simply too large to be useful for the general membership. Since your Jerky is now complete and you have a record of your questions and all the answers under Threads Started in your Profile, this thread has run it's course and needs to be Locked. You have generated some great questions complete with great responses. Please continue to take us all on your continued Curing adventure. Your results look delicious. Thanks and feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I am always happy to help...JJ


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