# 160 temp question



## WildmanWilson (Dec 28, 2018)

When making summer sausage you start at a low temperature and slowly bump it up. Since it has curing salt it’s made safe. So my question is why does jerky need to be pre heated to 160 before it’s supposedly safe? Wouldn’t the curing salt in jerky make it safe if dried in a similar manner as summer sausage? 

My dehydrator takes several hours to reach 160 if loaded with cold meat but that’s pretty much the way the sausage is done and it’s safe. Also seems the flavor and texture is never as good when preheat in the oven.... Thoughts.


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## bill ace 350 (Dec 30, 2018)

WildmanWilson said:


> When making summer sausage you start at a low temperature and slowly bump it up. Since it has curing salt it’s made safe. So my question is why does jerky need to be pre heated to 160 before it’s supposedly safe? Wouldn’t the curing salt in jerky make it safe if dried in a similar manner as summer sausage?
> 
> My dehydrator takes several hours to reach 160 if loaded with cold meat but that’s pretty much the way the sausage is done and it’s safe. Also seems the flavor and texture is never as good when preheat in the oven.... Thoughts.



You can start cold, provided it was cured properly


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## daveomak (Dec 30, 2018)

Cure takes care of the botulism threat, 160 F takes care of the pathogens cure does NOT attack...  Salmonella, shiga toxin, etc...   especially in ground meats...  contamination can come from anywhere... 
Check out  pathogens in this paper......
https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/assets/2016/09/emergingpathogensinmeatandpoultry.pdf


....


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## daveomak (Dec 30, 2018)

Wilson, morning.....   Meats that are heated slowly and dried, bacteria etc. can enter a state of "suspended animation" of sorts, only to be revived in a warm moist environment like your gut...   Then you get sick...  Sooooo, preheating to 160+ while wet, kills them, and continued drying at a lower temperature, is not a problem...


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## bill ace 350 (Dec 30, 2018)

You will be  safe putting the cured jerky into a cold dehydrator and the drying it, provided it reaches the proper internal temperature.


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## daveomak (Dec 30, 2018)

bill ace 350 said:


> You will be  safe putting the cured jerky into a cold dehydrator and the drying it, provided it reaches the proper internal temperature.



Wrong....

Safe internal temperature, for safe jerky is 160+ F......  while it is wet....
...


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## daveomak (Dec 30, 2018)

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index
*Why is temperature important when making jerky?* Illnesses due to _Salmonella_ and _E. coli_ O157:H7 from homemade jerky raise questions about the safety of traditional drying methods for making beef and venison jerky. The USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline's current recommendation for making jerky safely is to heat meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F before the dehydrating process. This step assures that any bacteria present will be destroyed by wet heat. But most dehydrator instructions do not include this step, and a dehydrator may not reach temperatures high enough to heat meat to 160 °F or 165 °F.

After heating to 160 °F or 165 °F, maintaining a constant dehydrator temperature of 130 to 140 °F during the drying process is important because:


the process must be fast enough to dry food before it spoils; and
it must remove enough water that microorganisms are unable to grow.
*Why is it a food safety concern to dry meat without first heating it to 160 °F?*
The danger in dehydrating meat and poultry without cooking it to a safe temperature first is that the appliance will not heat the meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F — temperatures at which bacteria are destroyed — before the dehydrating process. After drying, bacteria become much more heat resistant.

Within a dehydrator or low-temperature oven, evaporating moisture absorbs most of the heat. Thus, the meat itself does not begin to rise in temperature until most of the moisture has evaporated. Therefore, when the dried meat temperature finally begins to rise, the bacteria have become more heat resistant and are more likely to survive. If these surviving bacteria are pathogenic, they can cause foodborne illness to those consuming the jerky.


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## WildmanWilson (Dec 30, 2018)

Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.

Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.

Also jerky has been air dried for hundreds of year without hitting 160 first.

The last batch I put in the oven to pre heat to 160 causes much of the marinade to drip out of the meat and was much less flavorful.


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## bill ace 350 (Dec 31, 2018)

WildmanWilson said:


> Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.
> 
> Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.
> 
> ...



I don't know the answer.

Bottom line is, properly cured and brought to correct temperature and you will be fine.

Remember, the USDA publishes recommendations.

You can read them yourself. They even make a distinction between cured and uncured. Good stuff


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## daveomak (Dec 31, 2018)

WildmanWilson said:


> Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.
> 
> Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.
> 
> ...



Read post #7...

You are trying to mix apples and oranges... SS is a moist meat when finished...   Jerky is dried when finished...


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## WildmanWilson (Dec 31, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Read post #7...
> 
> You are trying to mix apples and oranges... SS is a moist meat when finished...   Jerky is dried when finished...


Ok but they both start out moist. Technically the only difference is jerky is dried further. If jerky is ground it’s exactly the same other than the finished moisture content. It also would seem that the critical time for killing bacteria is at the beginning. So my question continues to be why don’t people get sick from the summer sausage cooking process? The sausage is cold for a long time and only reaches 155 after hours in the cooker. We are told bacteria is more resistant when heated at the end of the process rather than the beginning. Just goes against what sausage cookers are doing vs jerky makers.


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2019)

Sausage and jerky are apples and oranges...


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## WildmanWilson (Jan 5, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Sausage and jerky are apples and oranges...


Wrong. They can be exactly the same except for dryness. Ground jerky and snack sticks are exactly the same product. Whole muscle is actually more safe than ground in which the bacteria is  mixed in. Hence the reason why we cook burgers more thoroughly than a steak for instance. 

Meat is meat. Jerky or sausage. Bacteria doesn’t know the difference between the two.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 5, 2019)

Jerky and preserving meat through salt, only, and air or sun drying was being done a thousand years before the USDA.  Reading the studies that led to the recommendation to heat to 160 first, seem contradictory to other types of cured products and pasteurization charts. My best guess...Summer Sausage, and such, typically gets refrigerated. The USDA regs assume you are going to be drying Very Slowly, 24 hours vs 10 for sausages, are not keeping finished jerky in the refer and you may not have reduced the water activity to a point that Bacteria and/or Spores can't survive. So to cover everyone A$$ they recommend heating to 160 first...JJ


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## WildmanWilson (Jan 5, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> Jerky and preserving meat through salt, only, and air or sun drying was being done a thousand years before the USDA. Reading the studies that led to the recommendation to heat to 160 first, seem contradictory to other types of cured products and pasteurization charts. My best guess...Summer Sausage typically gets refrigerated. The USDA regs assume you are not keeping jerky in the refer and you may not have reduced the water activity to a point that Bacteria and/or Spores can't survive. So to cover everyone A$$ they recommend heating to 160 first...JJ


I can agree with that. The same reason they recommend cooking hamburger to 160 yet you can go to a restaurant and some will ask how you want it cooked. It’s extra precaution.

 I had made jerky straight in the dehydrator for years and not once did anyone get sick. We didn’t even use curing salt back then. No one I’ve ever known got sick from it either. Heck, seems more people get sick from lettuce than jerky of any kind. I do always refrigerate my jerk as well or freeze for later.

But refrigeration doesn’t kill any bacteria that’s already in it. Just slows it from spoiling.


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## bill ace 350 (Jan 5, 2019)

WildmanWilson said:


> I can agree with that. The same reason they recommend cooking hamburger to 160 yet you can go to a restaurant and some will ask how you want it cooked. It’s extra precaution.
> 
> I had made jerky straight in the dehydrator for years and not once did anyone get sick. We didn’t even use curing salt back then. No one I’ve ever known got sick from it either. Heck, seems more people get sick from lettuce than jerky of any kind. I do always refrigerate my jerk as well or freeze for later.
> 
> But refrigeration doesn’t kill any bacteria that’s already in it. Just slows it from spoiling.



I used to make it without cure also, never got ill.

I use cure now, because it undeniably helps safe guard the food.

The USDA recommendations are just that.

How many commercial jerky seasonings with cure mention the 160 before drying technique.

Some people post the USDA information to be helpful, others to support their own belief that they are "someone important" on this forum and what they regurgitate is gospel.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 5, 2019)

As much as possible we preach and follow USDA guidelines for our members and ESPECIALLY non-members benefit. Is it thumping the USDA Gospel? Yes. Members, new and old, come here to learn and eventually teach. Most Newbies are very interested in smoking and curing meat and Sausage but have no clue where to begin. If I had a $1 for every time I bailed out a guy or gal, whose post started, " I found this cured sausage recipe online. It called for X Tablespoons of Cure #1. Is that right? " We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety. The same goes for other USDA guidlines on smoking Temperature, on cooking Turkey safely and in this case, the safest method for preparing Jerky.
 To get back to non-members, there are hundreds of Lurkers on SMF at any given time. If all they ever saw was " Grandma did it this way and nobody died. "Or, " Uncle Bob only used Salt and nobody got sick, " the lurkers would never see what is CURRENTLY the safest method. Example, in Grandma's day she and the family worked for their food. They had hands in the dirt of the garden, they raised the animals including mucking out the stalls, hands on moving the animals around and slaughtering these animals. Those past generations were strong, healthy and exposed to a huge variety of bacteria. They developed strong immune systems and rarely got food borne illnesses. The modern 2+ generations, buy Groceries and Packaged Meat at a store. They get and take Antibiotics for every Sniffle or mild Cough they get. Then add Presevatives, Antibacterial Soap and practically Bathing in Purell after any public contact, and you have a million people with weak immune systems, food allergies and Super Bugs that are killing children and older folks and the rest of the family spends weeks in the hospital from eating....Freakin Lettuce or a Medium Hamburger!
Yes, we can be fanatical about USDA guidelines, temperatures, and measuring Cure #'s 1 and 2 but it is for good reason. We don't ever want to hear a recipe or tutorial of our's made your family sick!
Yes, there are Heritage methods of cooking and curing. Yes, those of us that know exactly what we are doing and the risks envolved don't follow every guideline to the letter.  We are happy to discuss such things, but you will always see one or more veterans of SMF lay down the currently safest method for getting things done based on USDA guidelines and modern practices...JJ


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2019)

bill ace 350 said:


> Some people post the USDA information to be helpful, others to support their own belief that they are "someone important" on this forum and what they regurgitate is gospel.





Don't keep us in the dark on this subject...  Tell us who you think is doing this, to support their ego ...


...


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## fajitapot (Jan 5, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety.



No disrespect, but I frequently (more often than not) see people post recipes using volumetric measurements here and find it disappointing. Do the old timers just figure their teaspoons are "close enough"? I learned to write recipes in percentages and often wonder why others don't.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 5, 2019)

fajitapot said:


> No disrespect, but I frequently (more often than not) see people post recipes using volumetric measurements here and find it disappointing. Do the old timers just figure their teaspoons are "close enough"? I learned to write recipes in percentages and often wonder why others don't.



The USDA recommended amounts of cure #1 in Ppm, 120 for Bacon and 156 for other items, and the associated weights, in grams, to get there are optimal. They provide a wide margin of error for things like folks that boil cure in a Brine ( it dissipates ), have inaccurate scales ( weigh too much or too little ) or cure for shorter than recommended days ( higher concentrations disperse a bit faster into the muscle ). In actual use, a broad range of cure weights will get the job done. 40-80 ppm will set the color and help preserve the meat but do not offer much bacterial control. 80 to 200 ppm set the color and kill or inhibit bacteria of concern like Clostridium Botulinum, Listeria and to some extent Salmonella. For Dry Curing with a Dry application of cure at 625 ppm can be used. So, if 1 level teaspoon of Cure #1, in 5 pounds of meat, will get you 156 ppm...Does it really matter if the Old Timer, as you put it, scoops a Heaping teaspoon  or a Short teaspoon or even forgets and adds 2 teaspoons of Cure #1, there is no need for concern. 
Volume measurement is ok for small amounts of meat or sausage mix,  5 to about 50 pounds, but beyond that, using volumetric measurement, errors start to become of more concern...JJ 

BTW...This Old Timer uses both types of measurement, depending on the situatuation.


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## WildmanWilson (Jan 5, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> As much as possible we preach and follow USDA guidelines for our members and ESPECIALLY non-members benefit. Is it thumping the USDA Gospel? Yes. Members, new and old, come here to learn and eventually teach. Most Newbies are very interested in smoking and curing meat and Sausage but have no clue where to begin. If I had a $1 for every time I bailed out a guy or gal, whose post started, " I found this cured sausage recipe online. It called for X Tablespoons of Cure #1. Is that right? " We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety. The same goes for other USDA guidlines on smoking Temperature, on cooking Turkey safely and in this case, the safest method for preparing Jerky.
> To get back to non-members, there are hundreds of Lurkers on SMF at any given time. If all they ever saw was " Grandma did it this way and nobody died. "Or, " Uncle Bob only used Salt and nobody got sick, " the lurkers would never see what is CURRENTLY the safest method. Example, in Grandma's day she and the family worked for their food. They had hands in the dirt of the garden, they raised the animals including mucking out the stalls, hands on moving the animals around and slaughtering these animals. Those past generations were strong, healthy and exposed to a huge variety of bacteria. They developed strong immune systems and rarely got food borne illnesses. The modern 2+ generations, buy Groceries and Packaged Meat at a store. They get and take Antibiotics for every Sniffle or mild Cough they get. Then add Presevatives, Antibacterial Soap and practically Bathing in Purell after any public contact, and you have a million people with weak immune systems, food allergies and Super Bugs that are killing children and older folks and the rest of the family spends weeks in the hospital from eating....Freakin Lettuce or a Medium Hamburger!
> Yes, we can be fanatical about USDA guidelines, temperatures, and measuring Cure #'s 1 and 2 but it is for good reason. We don't ever want to hear a recipe or tutorial of our's made your family sick!
> Yes, there are Heritage methods of cooking and curing. Yes, those of us that know exactly what we are doing and the risks envolved don't follow every guideline to the letter.  We are happy to discuss such things, but you will always see one or more veterans of SMF lay down the currently safest method for getting things done based on USDA guidelines and modern practices...JJ


I understand the concerns when recommendations are made to the public. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for someone getting sick either. I’m simply searching for answers. I grew up curing many a sides of bacon and hams. Sugar cure and salt cure. Pretty much the way it’s been done for many years. I’m not even sure the USDA would still approve of those methods either. 

I was just seeing a contradiction in the two methods of jerky making and sausage/snack sticks. I think we should all be educated but not scared to death that we are going to kill ourselves.


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## daveomak (Jan 5, 2019)




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## fajitapot (Jan 5, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> Does it really matter if the Old Timer, as you put it, scoops a Heaping teaspoon  or a Short teaspoon or even forgets and adds 2 teaspoons of Cure #1, there is no need for concern.



I can appreciate a wide margin of error from the USDA, but I don't mean to limit the scope of my question to issues of safety (nitrite/nitrate). I'm more curious as to why those practicing a craft that relies heavily on precision and scientific method in order to improve and repeat results would not choose to be as specific as possible when it comes to ingredients, whether it's Prague Powder or rosemary.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 5, 2019)

fajitapot said:


> I can appreciate a wide margin of error from the USDA, but I don't mean to limit the scope of my question to issues of safety (nitrite/nitrate). I'm more curious as to why those practicing a craft that relies heavily on precision and scientific method in order to improve and repeat results would not choose to be as specific as possible when it comes to ingredients, whether it's Prague Powder or rosemary.



Take a poll here, in any Famous or Mom and Pop BBQ Joint or at any BBQ competition,  Smoking Meat or Curing Meat is an Art. Baking is a Science. For generations Cooking, Smoking and Curing techniques were passed down from master to student. Us Baby Boomers learned at Dad or Grandpa's side or maybe from a friend or other mentor. From a young age, you watched the meat be prepared. Then maybe they let you turn the grinder handle or season and mix the meat. You learned to make a fire, what woods to give flavor and how to control the smoke. You learned how to use and care for a knife, the cuts, what is used for what. You learned how cooking meat should look, smell and when it was done. Repeatability came with practice. There was a few books but no Internet or SMF to look to for help. Many times measurement was, Some of this, A Handful of that or maybe you measured by Volume. Over time you learned to produce great food but with so many variables, there is frequently a differences in the taste, texture, timing and often overall quality of the finished product. Some fabulous food and innovation has often come from a mistake or accident.
In contrast BAKING is a Science. In the bakery you don't use Recipes, you follow Formulas. Every ingredient is weighed out as a percentage of the Flour or main ingredient. The resulting product is consistent with the only true art involved coming when it's time to decorate, present or serve the product.

So whether you measure by Volume or Weight, is up to the individual. The main goal is to learn the Ways the Masters got things done, How additions, deletions or changes effect the result and Why they did it that way to get a great result. Then you can develop YOUR method of creating ART and making Magic...JJ


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## fajitapot (Jan 5, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> Take a poll here, in any Famous or Mom and Pop BBQ Joint or at any BBQ competition,  Smoking Meat or Curing Meat is an Art. Baking is a Science.



I would argue that curing meat (edit - charcuterie in general) is indeed a science, in much the same way baking is. Both are heavily reliant on chemistry is ways that both BBQ and Nonna's red sauce are not. The art, IMHO, comes from knowing the how, and using that knowledge to manipulate flavors and textures.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 6, 2019)

fajitapot said:


> I would argue that curing meat is indeed a science, in much the same way baking is. Both are heavily reliant on chemistry is ways that both BBQ and Nonna's red sauce are not. The art, IMHO, comes from knowing the how, and using that knowledge to manipulate flavors and textures.



Really? Watch a video on the making of Parma Prosciutto or Iberico Jamon. No scales, no formulas no Science.  Just thousands of pounds of Hams and young men shoveling Salt on layer after layer of Hog's Legs. This goes on until the Oldest man in the room says, That is Enough, in Italian or Spanish. After a year or two, the Old Man and an Apprentice or two walk along the rows of hanging Hams, Horse Bone in hand, probing and smelling for the proper aroma coming from the most expensive Cured Ham in the world or for spoiled meat. The same Masters apply their Art to many types of Salumi, Cheese and forms of Cured products,  in Europe, the United States, creating the finest Smokey Cured, Salt and Sugar only, Country Hams and Bacon, and a whole variety of preserved food from around the world.
I'm not talking Oscar Mayer, Hormel, Volpi's, or other National Brands of Laboratory Designed facsimiles of the real deal. I am talking True Artisans making generations old Magic.
Many years ago, I asked my Uncle for the Recipe Grandpa used to make his Coppa. " What recipe? " he replied. " Dad rubbed the pork with Salt, Black and Red Pepper, then tied and hung the meat until it was ready, about 5 months. "...JJ


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## indaswamp (Jan 6, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> Many years ago, I asked my Uncle for the recipe Grandpa used to make his Coppa. " What recipe? " he replied. " Dad rubbed the pork with Salt, Black and Red Pepper, then tied and hung the meat until it was ready, about 5 months. "...JJ




Sounds like my family jj!!!!


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## bmudd14474 (Jan 6, 2019)

bill ace 350 said:


> I used to make it without cure also, never got ill.
> 
> I use cure now, because it undeniably helps safe guard the food.
> 
> ...



Bill a few things you need to realize. 

1) The USDA Recommendations as you called it are actually USDA Guidelines for safe food handling and curing.
2) The people passing along these Guidelines are here to help people be safe and enjoy this great hobby and not trying to support their belief that they are "someone" as you put it. By saying that you are being very disrespectful to many of years of experience and helpfulness. 
3) How many companies do you know post their entire procedure on the packaging for you to know? Also the commercial places are USDA certified meaning they follow these guidelines. 

Please tread lightly when you are recommending something other than the USDA guidelines unless you can support it with facts as others in this thread have done.


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## fajitapot (Jan 6, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> I am talking True Artisans making generations old Magic.



This implies that the only way to do it properly is to have generations of experience teaching you. If I was a fourth generation blacksmith I may be able to forge the finest steel, but my techniques (if successful) would be formed by science whether I knew it or not. Nancy Newsom and Allan Benton (who are both lovely), are following traditions that work because of the science involved. They may not know or care about that science, but techniques that failed in generations past were not handed down. Most people don't have the luxury of growing up in a 100 year old Virginia smokehouse, which means you can spend a whole lot of time failing, or you can study the science and mitigate that loss.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 6, 2019)

*General characteristics of 4150 Alloy Steel*
AISI or SAE 4150 grade is a low-alloy steel containing chromium and molybdenum as strengthening agents. Its chemical composition is as follows:
*Chemical Analysis*
C% _Carbon_ 0.48 – 0.53
Mn% _Manganese_ 0.75 – 1.00
P% _Phosphorus_ 0.035 max
S% _Sulfur_ 0.040 max
Si% _Silicon_ 0.20 – 0.35
Cr% _Chromium_ 0.80 – 1.10
Mo% _Molybdenum_ 0.15 – 0.25

*Applications*
This alloy is used as forgings in the aerospace and oil and gas industries, and has myriad uses in the automotive, agricultural and defense industries, Typical uses are forged gears, shafts, and spindles,

*Forging*
This steel should be forged between 2200 and 1600 º F (1200 and 870 º C.) The lower the finishing temperature from forging, the finer will be the grain size. This alloy should ideally not be forged below 1600 º F (870 º C) and should be slow cooled after forging.

That is the Science behind a type of Steel suitable for say, Forging a Knife that has a portion of the steel soft enough to be strong and flexible but have a hardened edge that can be sharpened, hold the edge and stand up to the impact of hitting a cutting board without rolling or chipping.
There is no set of written systematic procedures that if followed, to the letter, will allow YOU, as an Apprentice or Master Smith to repeatedly produce a perfect set of 100 Knives with identical characteristics and a precise high level of quality. This will NEVER HAPPEN with Artisan Hand Forged Knives!
The ART that takes Apprentice to Master Smith comes from being shown and learning that this color yellow shows the steel is within a range of temps the make it strong yet flexible. Then covering the spine in Clay and heating until the steel is a shade of Yellow will result in a hard, strong, sharpenable edge, that is not brittle, after quenching in oil for the slow cooling that gives strength and avoids warping the blade.

The same goes for Curing Meat. The science has shown that the application of Salt draws moisture and kills or inhibits the growth of harmful bacteria by dehydrating the bacteria and binding water to prevent survivor or salt tolerant spoilage bacterial from multiplying.
Again if this salt curing was a science the production of high quality ham would be foolproof, consistently repeatable and 2, 200 or 2000 finished hams would have an identical level of salinity, have identical percentages of remaining moisture and a consistent, high quality level of flavor intensity.
This too will NEVER HAPPEN.
In Italy and Spain where generations a of Apprentices, under the watchful eye of Ham Curing Masters, have studied and practiced the ART of producing the finest cured hams. Here to, there  are the inconsistencies of any Artisan made product. The highest quality, finest hams are reserved for enjoyment of the  citizens of those countries. Lesser hams, of still high quality, are exported around the world. These hams are delicious and way better than anything commercially produced domestically but consistency in flavor, texture and salinity can vary from the same producer.

Science allows us to produce 1,000,000 tubes of identically colored Prussian Blue Oil Paint...BUT...Only Michelangelo can make the magic that is the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel!...JJ


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## bill ace 350 (Jan 6, 2019)

bmudd14474 said:


> Bill a few things you need to realize.
> 
> 1) The USDA Recommendations as you called it are actually USDA Guidelines for safe food handling and curing.
> 2) The people passing along these Guidelines are here to help people be safe and enjoy this great hobby and not trying to support their belief that they are "someone" as you put it. By saying that you are being very disrespectful to many of years of experience and helpfulness.
> ...



The USDA makes frequent use of both recommendations and guidelines. My apologies if I used the incorrect wording.

I'm not being disrespectful.

Respect is earned, and should people demand it, they should also display it.

Condescension and arrogance themselves area an act of disrespect. Maybe you've seen a few such posts by some members, I don't know.

Keep on smoking!


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## fajitapot (Jan 6, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> There is no set of written systematic procedures that if followed, to the letter, will allow YOU, as an Apprentice or Master Smith to repeatedly produce a perfect set of 100 Knives with identical characteristics and a precise high level of quality.



I'm not suggesting that anyone can walk in off the street, stuff bung with ground pork, and walk away with the most perfect mortadella on earth. Just as I would never suggest you can learn to drive a car from a book. But that does not mean there is no chemistry involved. None of us are, or will ever be, Michelangelo. 


Ana Rivas-Cañedo, ... Manuel Núñez, in Processing and Impact on Active Components in Food, 2015

*Dry-Cured Meat Products*
The first stages of the manufacture of dry-cured meat products involve the selection and preparation of the raw materials, which include bleeding and partial skin removal, when applicable. Afterwards, the pieces are rubbed on the surface with curing ingredients and additives (salt, nitrate and/or nitrite, ascorbic acid, etc.) and covered with layers of dry salt at 2–4°C for several days, depending on the piece’s weight. The salt is then brushed or rinsed off and the pieces are held at 0–4°C and 90% relative humidity (RH) for 20–60 days. Afterwards, the pieces are subjected to the ripening–drying stage, in which time, temperature and RH are combined for at least 6–9 months to achieve a final weight loss around 32–36% in relation to the initial weight.

Complex biochemical reactions leading to the final volatile profile take place during the manufacture of these products. Firstly, proteolysis and lipolysis generate peptides, free amino acids and free fatty acids that contribute to the flavor and the aroma of the product. These reactions are mainly due to endogenous enzymes, with a minor contribution of microbial enzymes (Toldrá, 1998), although molds and yeasts growing on the surface are also responsible for proteolysis and lipolysis. Secondly, lipid oxidation and further interactions of the resulting compounds with proteins, peptides and free amino acids, as well as Strecker degradation of free amino acids and Maillard reactions, generate most of the volatile compounds in dry-cured meat products (Toldrá, 1998). Their volatile fraction is composed of numerous compounds, such as aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, hydrocarbons, lactones, and esters (Toldrá, 1998). Aldehydes, benzene compounds and carboxylic acids were the most abundant chemical families among the 22 volatile compounds identified in dry-cured pork loin, accounting for 67% of the volatile fraction which also included methylketones, alcohols, alkanes, and pyrazines (Campus _et al._, 2008). In the volatile profile of dry-cured Serrano ham, 108 compounds were identified, grouped into alkanes, alkenes, aldehydes, ketones (mostly methylketones), alcohols, esters, benzene compounds, sulfur compounds, alkylfurans, and pyrazines (Rivas-Cañedo _et al._, 2009a). The most abundant chemical families were linear and branched-chain aldehydes, linear alkanes, secondary alcohols, and sulfur compounds.


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## daveomak (Jan 6, 2019)

fajitapot said:


> I'm not suggesting that anyone can walk in off the street, stuff bung with ground pork, and walk away with the most perfect mortadella on earth. Just as I would never suggest you can learn to drive a car from a book. But that does not mean there is no chemistry involved. None of us are, or will ever be, Michelangelo.
> 
> 
> Ana Rivas-Cañedo, ... Manuel Núñez, in Processing and Impact on Active Components in Food, 2015
> ...



fajitapot, morning.... Well, that explains the improvement in flavor....  All those nasties departing the muscle...  Good information...


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## bmudd14474 (Jan 6, 2019)

bill ace 350 said:


> The USDA makes frequent use of both recommendations and guidelines. My apologies if I used the incorrect wording.
> 
> I'm not being disrespectful.
> 
> ...




You are correct about respect being earned. 

Just remember sometimes it's hard to judge intent when reading text.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 6, 2019)

LOL! There is a difference between understanding the chemical and physical, molecular changes that curing causes, and putting Salt to Meat and getting $200 a pound Iberico Jamon. 
This was fun, my Brother in Smoke. My old brain needs some stimulation once in awhile. As a huge fan of Forged in Fire, I envy your ability to turn an old truck leaf spring into a mirror finished Kukri...JJ


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## bill ace 350 (Jan 6, 2019)

bmudd14474 said:


> You are correct about respect being earned.
> 
> Just remember sometimes it's hard to judge intent when reading text.



Thank you.


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## fajitapot (Jan 6, 2019)

chef jimmyj said:


> LOL! There is a difference between understanding the chemical and physical, molecular changes that curing causes, and putting Salt to Meat and getting $200 a pound Iberico Jamon.



Indeed, but Ibérico Jamon can only be produced in the Iberian Penninsula, where thousands of years of trial and error have resulted in traditions that unwittingly follow the rules of chemistry. I (and most others) unfortunately do not have the luxury of growing up steeped in these ancient traditions (What a dream that would be!).

That said, I fully recognize the art involved but submit that the true masters understand the rules they choose to break and why.

Anyway, nice chat. I'm glad I discovered this forum.


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## WildmanWilson (Jan 6, 2019)

There’s science involved in everything. There’s a lot of science involved in just flushing a toilet. Most people don’t necessarily need to know what all takes place but that the water is going to go out when they  pull the lever.

Our grandma and grandpa probably didn’t know all the science to curing meat but they somehow got it right. Trial and error works but mistakes are usually made along the way and solutions found.

Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.


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## fajitapot (Jan 6, 2019)

I see your point but I'm not trying to build a toilet, or build a car. If I was I would certainly want to know how they work (especially if I wanted to master it).


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 6, 2019)

WildmanWilson said:


> Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.



Hmmm, Refraction...Rotation...Sure Grip, Dana Power-Lok or Borg Warner Slip Resistant?...JJ


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## SonnyE (Jan 6, 2019)

I take the safe route.
I don't make Sausage. I only make Jerky.
So I'm bound to be right at least half the time. 

I probably made and ate .5 million pounds of Jerky in my life. Never got sick from mine.
Since joining SMF.com, I've been using Prague Powder.
It was the difference between what I wanted, taste wise, and what I was use to settling for.
Also, I believe in my stomach. Stomach acid is a wonderful thing. If anything is alive when it enters there, it's mighty dead when it moves on.  Ask anybody who swallowed a live Goldfish.

Corn is the only thing that bothers me. Why is it always so recognizable the next time it comes to the light? 
Stomach acid doesn't touch it, and that is worrisome. And GMO Corn is even more worrisome.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 6, 2019)

Also, I believe in my stomach. Stomach acid is a wonderful thing. If anything is alive when it enters there, it's mighty dead when it moves on. 

I thought I had a " Cast Iron " stomach. Then about 27 years ago I ordered a Pizza with Fresh Garlic. The cook forgot the Garlic and added it on the pizza in the box. At the time, I  thought that was fine. Little did I know, they chopped fresh garlic, covered it in Olive Oil and stored it on the counter at ROOM TEMP! Some 6 hours later, the first wave of projectile vomiting hit. This was soon followed by even more Explosive Diarrhea! I spent the next 5 days and nights sleeping on the bathroom floor as I was too weak to run back and forth from my bedroom.
Stomach Acid can handle very small amounts of bacteria. But, the really nasty stuff like E-Coli 0157 and Salmonella " Surfs " through stomach acid, to your intestines, like Duke Kahanamoku on vacation in Waikiki!
Proper heating, cooling and storage makes for a Happy Stomach and Restful Nights...JJ


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## xplsv (Jan 7, 2019)

I have made jerky the same way for many years without incident. Last year, I came across this subject of additional heating of the jerky on a forum someplace and started to do a bit more research on the subject. I came across a summary article put out by the University of Wisconsin Extension for Food Science regarding the use of home dehydrators for making jerky and methods to ensure it is safe. I've attached a copy. If you do a google search, you can find more in depth papers produced in conjunction with this study. I tried one of the suggested methods and found it did not alter my jerky flavor or texture and I know heat the final product in the oven at 275 degrees for ten minutes, as described in article. I'm not saying this is the best method, but it is an extra step I have now adapted and I think I may have gained some ground in food safety and I don't feel I have given up anything in jerky quality. YMMV.


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

xplsv said:


> I now heat the final product in the oven at *175* degrees for ten minutes, as described in article. I'm not saying this is the best method, but it is an extra step I have now adapted and I think I may have gained some ground in food safety and I don't feel I have given up anything in jerky quality. YMMV.



From the article you posted...  I think you may have a typo in your explanation....

Safe Drying Methods
In our research we tested 3 home‐style dehydrators: the Gardenmaster (#1010) and Jerky Xpress (#28JX), both from Nesco/American Harvest, and the Excalibur (#3900).
Choose one of the following recommended drying methods: Dry meat at 145° - 155°F for at least 4 hours followed by heating in a pre-heated *275°F* oven for 10 minutes.


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## xplsv (Jan 7, 2019)

That I did, Dave...thanks! Made the edit. (I don't think my oven will even go that low!)

Bernie


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## ErikAlan (Jan 7, 2019)

So I understand (brand new to this). I preheat at 27 AFTER the jerky is done right? Seen a lot of different things on this subject around the internet, but the article you linked really help.

Using a dehydrator, set at 160, dehydrate for (blank) amount of hours, then toss in the pre-heated oven for ten minutes.

Would this be the same for ground beef jerky as well?


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

Thanks....


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## WildmanWilson (Jan 7, 2019)

I’ve read that heating last makes the bacteria much harder to kill. Who knows.


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

ErikAlan said:


> So I understand (brand new to this). I preheat at 275 AFTER the jerky is done right? Seen a lot of different things on this subject around the internet, but the article you linked really help.
> 
> Using a dehydrator, set at 160, dehydrate for (blank) amount of hours, then toss in the pre-heated oven for ten minutes.
> 
> Would this be the same for ground beef jerky as well?



Same for ground jerky ???  Guessing....  probably... 

Erik, afternoon....   There is another option....   If you put your jerky strips in a liquid to flavor etc...   Put the meat and liquid in a sauce pan etc. and heat the liquid to 165 F for a few minutes...  Or you could vac package and put in your sous-vide at 170 F for an hour or 2... Do not boil...  Simmer to heat the meat, and kill any pathogens....   Then put in your dehydrator...


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## ErikAlan (Jan 7, 2019)

daveomak said:


> Erik, afternoon....   There is another option....   If you put your jerky strips in a liquid to flavor etc...   Put the meat and liquid in a sauce pan etc. and heat the liquid to 165 F for a few minutes...  Or you could vac package and put in your sous-vide at 170 F for an hour or 2... Do not boil...  Simmer to heat the meat, and kill any pathogens....   Then put in your dehydrator...



Don't even know what a sous-vide is actually, new to all this.

So with my ground beef recipe (planning on using my jerky gun) I heat it all up in a pot until 165F?

Right now it's marinating in a bag in the fridge, won't that risk cooking the meat or make it difficult putting into jerky gun?


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

Yes it will make ground meat jerky almost impossible to put through a gun...  It's intended for whole meat strips...
You can make the ground strips and heat them on a baking sheet to 165, "maybe", then dehydrate them....  Heat them on the racks from your dehydrator...
I'm not sure USDA had ground meat in their thoughts on this particular subject...


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 7, 2019)

I would not go through all that trouble for Ground Jerky. Check out BAK KWA...Chinese New Year Baked Ground Pork Jerky. Can be used with any ground meat and is easy...JJ


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## daveomak (Jan 7, 2019)

JJ, Looks good...  found 2 recipes and they are in my folders.....   Thanks for a new twist on jerky....


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