# Salt question for bacon



## custom99 (Jun 25, 2011)

I bought an 11 pound pork belly.$2.20 per lb is the best we found. I tried to find the tender quick and did not find any. I tried within a 50 mile radius of Pittsburgh and no one sells it. I ended up buying something called internal curing salt. Ingredients: salt, 6.25% sodium nitrite and .45 gram % fd&c red #3. Says to use 4 oz for 100lbs meat. Is this used the same as the tq. I saw on some of the things I was looking at that you had to add ingredients to it. I was going to cut the slab down to (3) 3lb pieces and (1) 2 pounder.


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## beer-b-q (Jun 25, 2011)

What you have is Cure #1.  It is not interchangeable with Tender Quick. 

With cure #1 you use 1oz per 25# of meat or 1 tsp per 5# if meat.  *DO NOT use more than what is recommended.*


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## SmokinAl (Jun 26, 2011)

What Beer said!


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## alblancher (Jun 26, 2011)

Looks like what is recommended by the label is what everyone else recommends, 1 oz per 25lbs.  This is just for cure, you can add additional salt, sugar and spices as you desire, just don't add additional cure. 

If you follow a recipe use the amounts included in the recipe unless there a specific instruction on the label of the cure.   I recommend a dry cure for bacon using the Cure 1 you just purchased.  USDA recommends against nitrates found in TenderQuick when curing bacon so unlike so many others on this forum I do not use TenderQuick. 

Let me know or do a search.    I'll be happy to provide an exact recipe to you if you are interested.

Al

BTW why cut the slab down?  Do you lack room in the fridge or is the smoker to small to handle the entire belly?


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## Bearcarver (Jun 26, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Looks like what is recommended by the label is what everyone else recommends, 1 oz per 25lbs.  This is just for cure, you can add additional salt, sugar and spices as you desire, just don't add additional cure.
> 
> If you follow a recipe use the amounts included in the recipe unless there a specific instruction on the label of the cure.   I recommend a dry cure for bacon using the Cure 1 you just purchased.  USDA recommends against nitrates found in TenderQuick when curing bacon so unlike so many others on this forum I do not use TenderQuick.
> 
> ...


Al,
Have you questioned Morton Salt Company?

Have you contacted the USDA?

I have done both:

As I read it, The problem is with Nitrates in commercially made bacon & their injection system.

But with the ragging on about Tender Quick, I called Morton Salt, and asked them about nitrates in their cure.
Their Tech said it is perfectly safe for curing Bacon, and always has been, and anybody who says it isn't safe is wrong!

Then I emailed the USDA:
I said, If it isn't safe, maybe the USDA should tell Morton Salt about it.
Maybe it should say on the package, "DO NOT USE TO CURE BACON!"
I told them, I have 17.2 pounds of Pork Belly in my refrigerator, curing in Tender Quick right now for my own use.
I was planning on smoking it Saturday, June 18, 2011. 

I asked them if it was safe to eat, if I follow the instructions on the Tender Quick bag.

This is the reply I got from the USDA:


*  Response Via Email (PDD Staff Officer)*06/14/2011 06:54 PM
Enjoy your home cured/smoked bacon. I am sure that Morton Company is aware of the USDA FSIS Policy change away from nitrates. The concern for nitrosamines and cholesterol has scared some into changing their eating habits.

I enjoy scrambled eggs, bacon, homemade hash browns and black coffee with caffeine for breakfast every chance I get and have been for the past 45 years. I also enjoy ham with my eggs sometimes as well......smoked pork ribs....pulled pork BBQ...salami....summer sausage...jerky....and on and on.

Maybe you could email them, and see what answer you get.

Thanks,

Bear
 
 


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## alblancher (Jun 26, 2011)

Not quite sure what parts of your post are direct quotes for either Morton's Salt or the USDA so there really is no way to hold anyone accountable.  I have tried several times to contact Morton's using their on-line question format and did not receive a reply. The USDA guidelines are published and readily available. Not sure why there would be a difference between commercial operations and the general public. I did not notice a specific qualification that the general public should not follow those printed guidelines when I was reading the documentation. 

It is easier to perform the calculations for concentrations of cure for bacon when using simple combinations of Nitrite and salt then using mixtures of Nitrite, Nitrate and salt.  I have no control over how fast the Nitrate converts to Nitrite during the cure process so I have a problem determining just how much Nitrite was available for take up by the green bacon.

To each his own.  I like Cure 1 because I have more flexibility with the amount of salt I can add and the general availability of recipes based on Cure 1.  I'm more of a basic ingredients kind of cook.  I mix my own rubs and spice mixes.  Make my own pancake mix, bake bread from flour, yeast, oil, salt and water, and try to make biscuits from scratch.  

It is my belief that a person new to curing meats is better served understanding and using basic cures and spice mixes.  Concentrate on learning good technique, learn how changes to a technique change the final product.    If you had asked me the same question  "I have 20 lbs of cured bacon in the fridge.  I cured it with Morton's tenderquick according to Morton's directions. Is it safe to eat?"  I would have said "yes, go ahead and enjoy your bacon".    If you had told me  " I smoked a cigarette and drank a shot of Scotch the other day, do I need to go get a chest x-ray"  my answer would have been "probably not"  go ahead and enjoy a cigarette and a drink occasionally.   I would also recommend not to make a habit of it.

You have every right to not agree with my reasoning and logic, but I think that what I say makes sense to a lot of people and should not be easily dismissed.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 26, 2011)

Direct quotes in BLUE:

But with the ragging on about Tender Quick, I called Morton Salt, and asked them about nitrates in their cure.
Their Tech said it is perfectly safe for curing Bacon, and always has been, and anybody who says it isn't safe is wrong!

 Then I emailed the USDA:

I said, If it isn't safe, maybe the USDA should tell Morton Salt about it.
Maybe it should say on the package, "DO NOT USE TO CURE BACON!"
I told them, I have 17.2 pounds of Pork Belly in my refrigerator, curing in Tender Quick right now for my own use.
I was planning on smoking it Saturday, June 18, 2011. 

I asked them if it was safe to eat, if I follow the instructions on the Tender Quick bag.

( I also told them I had been using it for years, and I love it)

This is the reply I got from the USDA:


*  Response Via Email (PDD Staff Officer)*06/14/2011 06:54 PM
Enjoy your home cured/smoked bacon.  I am sure that Morton Company is aware of the USDA FSIS Policy change away from nitrates. The concern for nitrosamines and cholesterol has scared some into changing their eating habits.

I enjoy scrambled eggs, bacon, homemade hash browns and black coffee with caffeine for breakfast every chance I get and have been for the past 45 years. I also enjoy ham with my eggs sometimes as well......smoked pork ribs....pulled pork BBQ...salami....summer sausage...jerky....and on and on.
 

The reason I called Morton's, and emailed USDA was not because I was worried about Tender Quick.

It was because every time someone mentions cure, you post how TQ is not safe.

Then I say if it wasn't safe they wouldn't be allowed to sell it as a safe cure for Bacon & other meats.

I asked you before if you ever asked the USDA why they allow it to be sold, or if you ever talked to Morton's techs.

You said you tried, but could not get ahold of them.

So I did it.

It took about 2 minutes to get to talk to someone from Mortons (on the phone), and USDA got back to me the next day.

I have not seen anything that makes me think Morton Tender Quick is unsafe.

Morton's actually got very disturbed at me. I told them ---"Whoa--Whoa---it wasn't me who said it was unsafe, it was another guy".

They said you were wrong, and you should call them, instead of badmouthing their product, about something you don't understand.

All I can say is what I asked both of them, and the answers I got from them.

Like I said, Maybe you can get different answers from them.

Call Morton's, and let us know what they tell you.

Email USDA, and ask them what I asked them (Is Tender Quick safe?, and if not, why are they allowed to sell it?)

Later Al,

Bear


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## fpnmf (Jun 26, 2011)

Do you guys think this is an appropriate conversation to be having on a new guys question???

  Craig


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## Bearcarver (Jun 26, 2011)

fpnmf said:


> Do you guys think this is an appropriate conversation to be having on a new guys question???
> 
> Craig


Probably not, Craig, and I apologize to custom99, but you gotta answer things where they come up.

This was the second time Tender Quick was put down today.

I ignored the other one, but answered this one with what I had found from the two parties in question by some.

I apologize again to custom99.

Bear


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## pops6927 (Jun 26, 2011)

I have complete confidence in both Morton's Tenderquick in it's prescribed amounts, and also in Cure #1 in its prescribed amounts and in the processes explained here.  The primary thing to remember is using it in its prescribed amounts and no more; it can kill you. When in doubt throw it out if you've made a calculation error and added too much.  This isn't going to increase the National Debt if you have to and it's better safe than sorry.  We all have our opinions and sometimes better to be debated in PM's and not aired in public until a consensus is determined, then agreed upon and not fueling an open debate, or a chat session at a future date for all parties involved.

We apologize for highjacking the thread and may we continue on giving our superlative advice to our newer members to lessen their confusion and increase their correct knowledge.


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## venture (Jun 26, 2011)

X2


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## solaryellow (Jun 26, 2011)

Bearcarver said:


> Direct quotes in BLUE:
> 
> But with the ragging on about Tender Quick, I called Morton Salt, and asked them about nitrates in their cure.
> Their Tech said it is perfectly safe for curing Bacon, and always has been, and anybody who says it isn't safe is wrong!
> ...




Bear,

Do you mind forwarding those emails in their entirety to me? All of the books I have read along with many different websites all say that nitrate is not to be used in products that are to be fried. I would like to see those emails for myself if you don't mind. solaryellow AT gmail DOT com. Thanks!


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## alblancher (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't have a dog in this fight and I do not wish to be baited into constantly arguing about the subject.  Any posts I make about the use of Cures is to provide my reasoning and experience for the benefit of visitors that are still learning about curing meats.  I depend on cite-able, published documentation like the Marianski Book, Kutas book, numerous published cookbooks, and USDA and FDA guidelines.

Personally I believe Tenderquick is a safe product when used in moderation.  The jury is still out as to the long term toxicity of Nitrosamines.  It appears that the amounts of Nitrosamines required to cause harm is so high that a normal diet, even diets including nitrosoamine rich foods, will not be significantly more harmful to the *average, healthy*, human body.   As stated earlier one reason I prefer Cure 1 is that I can better control the amount of salt in my cures. 

A telephone conversation is not a credible reference. The email response you received from the USDA puts the responsibility directly on Mortons.   I would be interested to see someone from the USDA offer an opinion different from the official opinion of the agency.  Seems like a good way to ruin a career. 

I hope I don't have to deal with this argument every time I mention the reasons I prefer to use Cure 1 instead of Tenderquick.   

Al Blancher


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## Bearcarver (Jun 27, 2011)

Pops6927 said:


> I have complete confidence in both Morton's Tenderquick in it's prescribed amounts, and also in Cure #1 in its prescribed amounts and in the processes explained here.  The primary thing to remember is using it in its prescribed amounts and no more; it can kill you. When in doubt throw it out if you've made a calculation error and added too much.  This isn't going to increase the National Debt if you have to and it's better safe than sorry.  We all have our opinions and sometimes better to be debated in PM's and not aired in public until a consensus is determined, then agreed upon and not fueling an open debate, or a chat session at a future date for all parties involved.
> 
> We apologize for highjacking the thread and may we continue on giving our superlative advice to our newer members to lessen their confusion and increase their correct knowledge.


Thanks Pops, I agree, used properly, both TQ & Cure #1 are very good cures.

SolarYellow,

The Email from USDA is copied & pasted word for word.

The words I reported from Morton Salt were over the phone.

You are allowed to call them, or email them yourself.

I am quite satisfied with the answers I got from them.

The USDA has different policies for commercial processors, but allows them to use nitrates in everything except food for babies, toddlers, and Bacon. 

They do not report any problem with Tender Quick (that I can find).

If TQ was bad, Morton Salt could not sell it. If it was anything like cigarettes, they would have to put on the outside of the pack, "Caution, using Tender Quick could be Hazardous to your health".

Let us know what they tell you,

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Jun 27, 2011)

alblancher said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight and I do not wish to be baited into constantly arguing about the subject.  Any posts I make about the use of Cures is to provide my reasoning and experience for the benefit of visitors that are still learning about curing meats.  I depend on cite-able, published documentation like the Marianski Book, Kutas book, numerous published cookbooks, and USDA and FDA guidelines.
> 
> Personally I believe Tenderquick is a safe product when used in moderation.  The jury is still out as to the long term toxicity of Nitrosamines.  It appears that the amounts of Nitrosamines required to cause harm is so high that a normal diet, even diets including nitrosoamine rich foods, will not be significantly more harmful to the *average, healthy*, human body.   As stated earlier one reason I prefer Cure 1 is that I can better control the amount of salt in my cures.
> 
> ...


You can mention that you prefer cure #1 every time, just like I mention I prefer Tender Quick every time, but if you don't want to hear from me, don't try to tell people Tender Quick is not safe to use.

I use Tender Quick in all of my curing, and all of my cured Step by Steps are using TQ. Hundreds of people use my Step by Steps. That's why I take it personally when someone says TQ is unsafe to use. Your saying that all of the time, is telling people that I am teaching them to use something harmful. That is why I contacted both of them.

When the USDA stops them from selling it, or puts a warning label on it, I will stop using it.

The email response I got from the USDA doesn't put the responsibility on Mortons. My question to USDA puts the responsibility on the USDA, and their answer was, "Enjoy your Home Made Bacon". Morton is obviously doing nothing wrong, or they would be ordered to recall their product, or put a warning label on it.

Bear


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## alblancher (Jun 27, 2011)

Cigarettes are safe

The cost benefit analysis for Mortons probably goes like this,  

Money we make is greater then  the cost and probability of a successful lawsuit showing the nitrates in our product are directly responsible for a specific illness.  Simple math.

The government analysis.  We make the regulations and allow the courts to figure it out.  If we get sued we can take action against Mortons but not until a legitimate lawsuit is filed.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 27, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Cigarettes are safe
> 
> The cost benefit analysis for Mortons probably goes like this,
> 
> ...


The time you're using making posts like this could be utilized in contacting the two parties, like I did. Maybe you can find someone at USDA to support your cause? 

For a guy who doesn't want to argue, you sure come up with some beauties.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 27, 2011)

Government funded or privately funded research is designed to STAY funded by making earth shattering, "The latest research indicates this will KILL you!", statements then applying for more research money to back their THEORY not FACT.... Flash 1990, "Eggs cooked to any temperature under 160*F will give you Salmonella!" NJ state bans restaurants from selling Over Easy eggs...Wrong!!!...Flash 1986, "Eggs are the leading contributor to High Cholesterol and Heart disease in the American diet...EGGS WILL KILL YOU!"...Wrong!!!...Flash 1970, "Research indicates that the consumption of Sodium Saccharine will cause Cancer...SWEET 'n LOW WILL KILL YOU!"...Wrong!!!... Global warming, Ozone Depletion, Swine Flu...Nitrate, Nitrite and Sulfides...SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE is making money by making outrageous unfounded claims....Get my Point? Fight nice boys...JJ


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## daveomak (Jun 27, 2011)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Government funded or privately funded research is designed to STAY funded by making earth shattering, "The latest research indicates this will KILL you!", statements then applying for more research money to back their THEORY not FACT.... Flash 1990, "Eggs cooked to any temperature under 160*F will give you Salmonella!" NJ state bans restaurants from selling Over Easy eggs...Wrong!!!...Flash 1986, "Eggs are the leading contributor to High Cholesterol and Heart disease in the American diet...EGGS WILL KILL YOU!"...Wrong!!!...Flash 1970, "Research indicates that the consumption of Sodium Saccharine will cause Cancer...SWEET 'n LOW WILL KILL YOU!"...Wrong!!!... Global warming, Ozone Depletion, Swine Flu...Nitrate, Nitrite and Sulfides...SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE is making money by making outrageous unfounded claims....Get my Point? Fight nice boys...JJ


Just remember to drink your 5-6 cups of coffee a day to reduce your chances of prostate cancer !!! The same coffee that did something bad to you. I don't remember what it was. I'm too old to remember stuff like that. Well, time for another cup of coffee.


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## chef jimmyj (Jun 27, 2011)

"I'm too old to remember stuff like that"....Flash, "SMF Chef applies for and receives multimillion dollar grant to prove Smoking Meat and Drinking Coffee causes OLD AGE!"...Film at Eleven...JJ


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## solaryellow (Jun 27, 2011)

Bearcarver said:


> Thanks Pops, I agree, used properly, both TQ & Cure #1 are very good cures.
> 
> SolarYellow,
> 
> ...




I am not questioning what you posted Bear. The context of it for some reason isn't sinking in with my pea brain today. I would have hoped there was more information and thought maybe you had posted a summary. Thanks for responding.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 27, 2011)

solaryellow said:


> I am not questioning what you posted Bear. The context of it for some reason isn't sinking in with my pea brain today. I would have hoped there was more information and thought maybe you had posted a summary. Thanks for responding.




You're very welcome.

That was that whole reply from them.

I would have liked more from them too, but I guess their hearts weren't in it.

Maybe they are worried Morton Salt will prove they are wrong, if they push it? Just a guess.

However someone from the other side of the fence about TQ could maybe drag more out of them.

I like using it & USDA didn't tell me not to use it, and instead told me to enjoy it.

I don't know what else to say.

Take Care,

Bear


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## solaryellow (Jun 27, 2011)

Bearcarver said:


> You're very welcome.
> 
> That was that whole reply from them.
> 
> ...




I am not trying to dissuade you from using it. The use of it in bacon is in my concern. I don't believe TQ is inherently evil nor do I feel that everyone should only use cure #1 or cure #2.


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## Bearcarver (Jun 27, 2011)

solaryellow said:


> I am not trying to dissuade you from using it. *The use of it in bacon is in my concern.* I don't believe TQ is inherently evil nor do I feel that everyone should only use cure #1 or cure #2.


Great then there (in red) is your reason for contacting Mortons & the USDA. It's easy to do.

Tell them to put a label on it "Not For Use In Curing Bacon". Or ask them why they won't do that.

I can't do more than I did for you. They should be your target !

Bear


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## lathrop (Jun 27, 2011)

Interesting issue. I am noticing that commercial bacon that I used to enjoy does not taste as good as as it used to. And It goes bad in the fridge relatively quickly .I  assume that the Nitrate, Nitrosamine. controversy has something to do with it. Salting and curing, smoking meat has been used to preserve meat for thousands of years. So I am happy to hear the issue aired publicly. Thanks for the Step by step. I plan to use it for curing hog jowl soon. Another question. Should I use the bacon cure to do tongue? Or am I better off using a brine.


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## DanMcG (Jun 27, 2011)

lathrop said:


> Interesting issue. I am noticing that commercial bacon that I used to enjoy does not taste as good as as it used to. And It goes bad in the fridge relatively quickly .I  assume that the Nitrate, Nitrosamine. controversy has something to do with it.
> 
> Although it still seems to be an issue for some here, the USDA stopped the use of Nitrates in bacon back in the 70's if I'm not mistaken. I think if you notice a difference now it's probably the manufacturer adding more water or something trying to make more money with less meat, or just a less quality belly.
> 
> Salting and curing, smoking meat has been used to preserve meat for thousands of years. So I am happy to hear the issue aired publicly. Thanks for the Step by step. I plan to use it for curing hog jowl soon. Another question. Should I use the bacon cure to do tongue? Or am I better off using a brine. Which bacon cure were you thinking of using?


 Oh and welcome to the forums Lathrop.


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## custom99 (Jun 28, 2011)

Well, not sure reading all that helped or not. I decided to use the cure #1. I took pics and will update in the future when I see how this worked out for me.


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## alblancher (Jun 28, 2011)

Custom99

Reading all that was probably confusing to the majority of people on the forum so this is one time you don't need to feel special  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






 .   You used what you had Cure 1, hopefully in the proper amounts with the correct methods.  If you have never before eaten you own cured bacon you are in for a special treat.  Post what you did and some pics. 

Al


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## venture (Jun 28, 2011)

Please don't let this dissuade you in any way.  Do your study and research.  Be sure you know what is happening with each cure.

Also, please note that the discourse you have seen in this thread is not a common thing here.  There are great and friendly people here.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## chefrob (Jun 29, 2011)

makin' bacon........................git after it!

btw - what recipe did you use.........that should be more important that what cure. i'd like to know how much salt/sugar did you use and did you use anything else like garlic, onion or pepper.


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## lathrop (Jun 29, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> Oh and welcome to the forums Lathrop.


Thanks, I  was thinking to use Bear's recipe in " His bacon extra smoky post.  However It is the only one I have looked at in detail in detail. I have subscribed to the 5 day tutorial so hopefully I will be better informed in a few days. .


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## bakerboy7 (Jun 29, 2011)

Hey Custom, I get my Tenderquick at the Agway in Greensburg. 

I prefer it over cure 1.  I just soak a little longer.

Good luck!


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## custom99 (Jun 30, 2011)

Thanks bakerboy, I will stop there next time I am out that way so that I have both. I tried using the store locator on Mortons site and could not come up with anywhere. I ended up going to Pennsylvania Macaroni in the strip for the cure I bought.


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## chefrob (Jun 30, 2011)

lathrop said:


> However It is the only one I have looked at in detail in detail.


 i use this per lb of pork:

peppered...
1 # butt or belly

1 gm # 1 cure
8 gm salt
5 gm raw sugar
1/4 t. granuated garilic
1/4 t. granulated onion
2 t. black pepper

you might want to think about a small digital scale for accuracy for cure/salt/sugar ratios.


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## custom99 (Jun 30, 2011)

Scales and other equipment is something I am never short of. My wife is an ex-chef and my daughter is a pastry student. These two have about anything I ever ask for. They were the ones that helped me out with measuring the cure.


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## chefrob (Jun 30, 2011)

so what did you end up making for a cure?


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## lathrop (Jun 30, 2011)

Lucky you. and for that mater lucky me. My wife is a great cook as is her mother.  I do use digital scales and Thermometers.  as a cook I do some things really well. but have a somewhat limited range. I don't lack cook books. I have a huge collection as both my wife and I love to read them. They are an entire genre of entertainment and information. Smoking "meat" is a new enterprise for me. I do roast my own coffee and build [actually convert] my own roasters. one of the baristas at the best local expresso  bar rated my coffee as awesome That is a bit off topic though.

george


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## fpnmf (Jun 30, 2011)

lathrop said:


> Lucky you. and for that mater lucky me. My wife is a great cook as is her mother.  I do use digital scales and Thermometers.  as a cook I do some things really well. but have a somewhat limited range. I don't lack cook books. I have a huge collection as both my wife and I love to read them. They are an entire genre of entertainment and information. Smoking "meat" is a new enterprise for me. I do roast my own coffee and build [actually convert] my own roasters. one of the baristas at the best local expresso  bar rated my coffee as awesome That is a bit off topic though.
> 
> george


A few of here roast our own coffee..  I have an I-Roaster and all the cool gear that goes with roasting..

Craig


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

All i used for cure was the cure #1. I did not want to experiment on my first try. They had to help me measure because of having to use such a small amount of cure. I had it figured wrong and almost used way too much. Since my smoker is a small cabinet I cut the belly into 4 pieces to fit better. If I could get photobucket to cooperate I would post pics, but for some reason I cant get it to work right.


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

Do you know how to post pics directly to the site?  Photobucket not necessary


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

No I don't.  I found a tutorial in the wiki section on how to load pics with photobucket but it was not working for me.


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## daveomak (Jul 1, 2011)

Custom, Morning.

First...when the message box opens, be sure it has loaded completely. Meaning all the icons at the top are visible. On occasion it hasn't loaded completely for me and then I end up with problems.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Left click on "insert image" icon.

Highlight "browse computer" tab.

Left click "browse"

Find the picture, on your computer, that you want to load into the post.

Left button "Double click" on the picture file and the address will load into the file box.

Click on the "submit" box and the pic should load.

I have found waiting 5-10 seconds between each operation works well for getting things to load.

Hope this works for you. I had to have it explained to me. I can't remember who squared me away, but heres to helping each other out.

Dave


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

Take a look at the top bar of the  reply section.  About half way you will see what appears as a film strip. Hover over it and it will say Insert video  to the left of the film is a portrait or something  it says Insert Image.  Click on that you get a pop us screen that allows you to browse your computer.  find the image you want to upload to the site and download it.   Hint.  give yourself a bit of room by hitting the return button a couple of times and then move your cursor back up a couple of lines before inserting the photo.  That will allow you to add text before and after the photo as needed.

Good Luck


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

Sorry Dave,  I hit send before knowing you had already replied.  Between the two of us he will either be very confused or very successful.

Al


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## daveomak (Jul 1, 2011)

alblancher said:


> Sorry Dave,  I hit send before knowing you had already replied.  Between the two of us he will either be very confused or very successful.
> 
> Al


Well, you saved the day with "hit the return to make room for typing stuff.

I think we tried to reply at the same time anyway. No worries.

We should do a poll: Are 2 heads better than 1.......At this hour of the morning................. opinions welcome...............


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

WE SHOULD UPDATE THE WIKIE!

Or what ever they call that stuff. 

Maybe supply links to important  "how to info" in the new members section  How to post pics,  how to post videos, how to send PMs, how to find a member etc.  Put the links all in one place so it's easy to reference, darn we may already have that but I don't know where it is.


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks guys, it worked. Now I can actually show what I am asking about. I only used the recommended amount of cure #1 on these bellies.







I am getting juice in 3 of the 4 packages.







I did not completely suck the air out.







This one that does not have much juice. Is it normal that the edges on this piece got a little brown? The bottom part of the piece is not brown like it looks here in the pic. Only the sides are a little brown.


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

Is that a dry cure?  Is it vacu packed?  Remember dry cures need to be added several times over the curing period to ensure equal distribution of the cure.


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

What I did was skin it, rinse it, pat dry, sprinkle on recommended amount of cure #1, seal in bag but not suck all air out, rotate and flip everyday. Should I be doing more?


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't want to make a lot of comments if you are following a specific recipe. The dry cure procedure I use recommends distributing the cure 3 times over the course of the cure but I have no qualms about the way your are doing it.  If you are getting a bit of gray edges then maybe you need to make sure the cure is getting to the meat.  Maybe a bit of rubbing on it to make sure everything it distributed real well.  I don't think you will hurt anything just "mushing the bag a bit" to get everything moved around.  I cure 10 - 12 lb slabs at a time so vacuum packing is not doable for me, I rub in the cure, cover with plastic wrap, stack the bellies on top of one another and then repeat a couple of more times during the 12 - 14 day cure.  Keep everything refrigerated and it will come out fine, the cure will move internally among the tissue regardless of what it looks like outside.

Keep up the good work,  thanks for sharing the pics

Al


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## chefrob (Jul 1, 2011)

custom99 said:


> All i used for cure was the cure #1. I did not want to experiment on my first try. They had to help me measure because of having to use such a small amount of cure. I had it figured wrong and almost used way too much. Since my smoker is a small cabinet I cut the belly into 4 pieces to fit better.


did you weigh each peace individually and then use the prescribed amount for each piece?


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

In all the confusion with the posts earlier in the thread I have to ask if you added salt and sugar to the Cure 1?  Once you make the mix you have a pretty good amount of mixed cure to put on the green bacon and I would think it would be visable through the bags.  Like ChefRob mentioned did you cut the meat and add cure to the individual pieces?     Why not post the amounts of everything you used and the weight of the meat. 

Al


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

I did not use anything except the cure. The cure I used says 4 oz per 100 lbs of meat. After skinning the pieces were cut into 2.51  lbs for one and 2.54 lbs for two others. My wife figured out the amounts for me and I used 1/2 tsp  of #1 on each of those pieces. The fourth piece was only 1.14 lbs and I used an 1/8 tsp on that one. After patting the meat dry I sprinkled the cure on and rubbed it in.


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

What did the label say on the cure you used?  Did it say  Cure 1?


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

No Beer-b-q told me thats what it is. His response is the 1st one in the beginning of this thread. The label says internal curing salt.


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

Did the lable say salt, sodium nitrite and coloring only.  6.25% sodium nitrite?


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## custom99 (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes, exactly what it says.


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## meateater (Jul 1, 2011)

custom99 said:


> Yes, exactly what it says.


Looks like a few more days and you should be hitting the smoker, congrats! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  I have some going in the smoker tomorrow myself.


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## alblancher (Jul 1, 2011)

You have cure 1.  It is mixed with additional salt, sugar and other spices to make a bacon cure.  By mixing the cure 1 with additional salt and sugar you get enough cure mix to make distribution of the cure a lot easier.   The bacon you have will be safe but probably not have much flavor.

I am very sorry that the rhetoric exchanged between members earlier in this thread screwed you up.   

Why not start a new thread and get some opinions about how to save your bacon.  I am not where I have access to my recipes so I can not give you the rest of the ingredients.

How long has the bacon been on the cure?  If it is 3 or more days I would open them up, combine them in a bowl and add the additional salt and sugar.  Then wrap tightly in saran wrap and let cure for a couple of days and then redust with additional salt and sugar.  I just don't know how much salt and sugar you should be adding to the bacon.

Al


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## chefrob (Jul 1, 2011)

al, i posted what i use on the 2nd pg............question, why do you "re-dust" with more salt and sugar? i have always just added my total amount in the beginning and let it ride............just wondering.


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## DanMcG (Jul 2, 2011)

I'm thinking like Al, I'd try adding the salt and sugar now and let it cure for another 5 days. Remember you can't cure to long. Rob's recipe is close to mine on the salt and sugar.  I use 10g of salt and 4g of sugar per pound.


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

Well Custom, sorry you missed the instructions provided by ChefRob.  You can save your bacon, a bit more care and effort on this part will make you much happier later.

ChefRob  I mix the cure, salt and sugar and store in a mason jar.  I dry the bellies, coat with about 1/3 of the cure mixture, wrap in saran wrap, stack in a large plastic container and set in the fridge.  4 days later I unwrap the green  bacon and redust with 1/3 of the mix.  I'll wait 3 or 4 days depending on my schedule and dust with the balance of the cure mix. I may add a bit more salt and sugar at this point depending on the mood I am in.  I let it cure at least another 3 days and depending on what I am try to achieve I may do a very heavy dusting of sugar or maybe a good coating of Steens cane syrup or brown sugar.    I'll leave this final dusting unwrapped, trying to dry the bacon as much as possible.  Depending on when I can get to the farm and the smoke house the bacon stays in the fridge for 3 to 5 days.  I'll smoke for 12 - 24 hours  with pecan and then return the bacon to the fridge for a couple of days to meld.

I really like the way this works out for me, I follow the procedures I learned over the last couple of years and when I purchased the Marianski book the exact same technique was described.

Oh BTW I don's skin the bacon until after smoking.  It's so much easier and I use the smoked bacon skin for seasoning.  It also helps hold the bellies together when I hang them in the smokehouse with stainless wire.

Al

Come on down to the SELA gathering and try some!


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## tjohnson (Jul 2, 2011)

This thread is exactly what scares me!

The word "Cure" is interchangeable between "Cure #1", "Morton's Tenderquick" and a "Cure Recipe Containing Cure #1, Salt, Sugar and Other Spices",

It's up to the member to do their own research, so as to perform a correct curing method.

All we can do is offer suggestions and our own experiences.  All these guys have offered great ideas!!

Todd


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

Todd,

That's why I get so disappointed with all the arguing.  A newbie is bound to get confused.  I don't mind having different recipes for the same product, as a matter of fact that's what makes this site so great.  There is more then one way to skin the proverbial cat.   It is our obligation as experienced members to keep the rhetoric down, present safe, reproducible recipes and techniques and respect others opinions as long as they are safe.

I think USDA guidelines should be closely followed in this forum.  If we hold the USDA as the standard then we can explain how we do things a bit different and not get into trouble.  When a newbie asks a question, particularly about cures, we should present a technique or recipe (either brine, injected or dry cured) that adheres to USDA and once the generally acceptable safe way is established and understood then we can go into the finer points of our different cure techniques.

What Custom did was use just Cure 1.  Like I said I do not have access to my reference material but I assume his bacon will be safe to cold smoke.  It may not be as tasty as he would like but I don't think he will get into any health trouble.  He was very attentive to the amounts of Cure 1 he used, very attentive to keeping the cure 1 distributed and the meat refrigerated.  He is the kind of person that once they learn how to do what they want to do he will produce delicious, safe product.

BTW   I truly appreciate the tone of the current discussion.


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## tjohnson (Jul 2, 2011)

We've all been there, and made a mistake or two along the way.  This is how most of us learn.

I agree it's up to members to help, and I think the group, as a whole does a great job.

A WIKI needs to be written on the importance of Curing and the dangers of not doing it properly.  Maybe we take 3 or 4 experienced and knowledgeable members,to write an informative and SAFE WIKI about curing.  This WIKI would follow the philosophy of SMF and will keep personal opinions out.  This WIKI could be used as a reference for everyone.

I am no expert on the subject, but would be willing to help out

What do you think?

Todd


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

I'll be happy to help,  lets get Dan McG involved.  I dry cure, Dan dry cures,  Todd are you a wet cure guy?  We need to have a wet cure and pump person involved.  I definetly think a wiki on bacon  cure is required. 

Good suggestion.   BTW  we can also do a wiki on how to post pics


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## custom99 (Jul 2, 2011)

I like the wiki idea. There is so much to read through when doing searches that it gets confusing.


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## daveomak (Jul 2, 2011)

TJohnson said:


> We've all been there, and made a mistake or two along the way.  This is how most of us learn.
> 
> I agree it's up to members to help, and I think the group, as a whole does a great job.
> 
> ...





alblancher said:


> Todd,
> 
> That's why I get so disappointed with all the arguing.  A newbie is bound to get confused. _ I don't mind having different recipes for the same product, as a matter of fact that's what makes this site so great. _ There is more then one way to skin the proverbial cat.   It is our obligation as experienced members to keep the rhetoric down, present safe, reproducible recipes and techniques and respect others opinions as long as they are safe.
> 
> ...


The nail has been hit squarely on the head. Excellent points.....and very well put.....Thanks


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## exhaustedspark (Jul 2, 2011)

I never and i mean never tell someone to cure if it do not agree with the guidelines from USDA.

I have never Cured Bacon only sausage. I have only been on the forum for a very short time and i almost left because of the bickering. There was a way that stuffed was cured that was in my opinion dangerous. I mentioned the possible danger for any that was looking for a way to cure sausage and i was jumped on. If it was not for some friendlier members that pm me i was gone.

I think it would be a great idea to have a wiki on cures. I don't know maybe Morton would like to pitch in also.

Karl


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## SmokinAl (Jul 2, 2011)

I agree, why don't you guys put something together that all the members can access. I just go by the directions on the insta cure package. However I must admit that I use Pops brine cure recipe more than any other and it doesn't go by the same ratios as the insta cure directions. It bothered me at first, but it has always worked well. I think Craig swears by it too.


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## chefrob (Jul 2, 2011)

> Come on down to the SELA gathering and try some!


i wish i could!


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

I would like to concentrate on the basic bacon cures for the first wiki since that seems to be where the majority of the confusion occurs.  Once I get home after the 4th I can post the dry cure technique presented by Marianski (with citation obviously).  If I remember correctly their recipe should be pretty agreeable to those of us that dry cure bacon.

We will need someone to present a safe bacon brine technique.  I can probably find one in one of my reference books if no one is able to present one they use.

We can post these basic technique, open them for intelligent, respectful comment and then when a consensus is reached post as a wiki.

May as well get this out of the way now.  If we are going to do this following USDA guidelines we will not be recommending TenderQuick or Cure 2 in the Bacon Wiki.  TenderQuick will be well represented in the sausage/ham/loin cure wiki if we are successful and decide to continue the process.

Al


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## DanMcG (Jul 2, 2011)

I'm all for setting up a page with the basic info a beginner needs to know to cure bacon. let me know what I can do to help Al.


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

Dan,

I and many others on this forum have the highest respect for your experience, knowledge and demeanor.  If you can take control of this I think it will go smoother and be more readily acceptable to the other members of the forum.

Maybe I should say,    Let Me Know How I Can Help You

Al


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## DanMcG (Jul 2, 2011)

LOL Al , that was real smooth the way you delegated that job off on me.

All kidding  aside I'd not sure I could compose something that people would want to read....But we can talk.


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## tjohnson (Jul 2, 2011)

I'm not a go to guy for cure, but I follow directions VERY WELL!! 

I make a lot of bacon and sausage, and even post my recipes, but not confident in my abilities to be 100% correct.

We need a very basic cure recipe and procedure that can be easily followed.

I think you guys are on the right track.

Pops would be the go to guy for the brine cure.  He's an excellent resource and very well respected.

Todd


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

I'll make a deal with you.  If this can wait until Tuesday I will post the Marianski recipe for dry cured bacon.  As previously mentioned this method is basically what I do now.

I have never done a brine for anything other then poultry so I am not able to help out there.  Marianski should also have a brine cure, not sure will have to check.  I know Kutas can help, maybe we can check there.

No reason to reinvent the wheel, as long as we give proper credit to the authors there shouldn't be a problem.  We can have additional discussion in the Wiki for common additions to the recipes like when to add additional sugar, salt and spices.  Dan, your experience is invaluable when we address questions such as "If I leave the rind on do I reduce the amount of cure"?  I know from experience that if you leave the rind on you should plan to leave it in the cold smoke longer but adjusting the amount for cure to account for the rind is new to me. 

Look forward to working with everyone to do this


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## alblancher (Jul 2, 2011)

If Pops is interested in helping out I certainly welcome his experience and opinions.

Al


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## DanMcG (Jul 2, 2011)

I can help with a pumped brine recipe also...


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## lathrop (Jul 5, 2011)

Marianski? which book. I just went to ABE books and found 4 titles. Home production of cured meats looks good as does smoking and smoke house design.

George


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## simple (Sep 20, 2011)

Don't know how I missed this thread when starting my bacon learnin'...  This must be one of the ones mentioned occasionally in other threads...

As a newbie at this, I just read a bunch from an assortment of sources, think on it, look for consistencies, and decide what I want to do.  Individual bickering--I mean discussing--between members tends to just go in one ear and out the other.  I don't pay much attention to it, and the more heated it becomes, the less weight it's given.  At some point, the original disagreement disappears under the "I'm right and you're not!" status that prevails...

USDA?  ANY info from the government I take with a large grain of salt anyway.  Them boys are out to cover their arses as much as, or more than, anyone.  I put more stock in folks who have actually done things and can report on results than i do in "studies".

The thing that lead me to using TQ was the fact that cure #1 is such a small amount to spread over the meat, how consistently can it be applied?  And if it's mixed with salt, sugar, and whatever-else-feels-good-at-the-time spices, how evenly is the #1 distributed within that mixture?  To my (agreeably newly formed and little tested) way of thinking, the opportunity for the curing process to be derailed is much higher with the #1 mixture than it is with TQ.  

All I know for certain is that my TQ-cured bacon hasn't killed me yet, so I'll keep using the TQ until the package is gone.  Maybe then I'll try a wet cure, maybe not.  Let's face it, it's bacon--not exactly the most healthy of foods in the first place.  Nitrates/nitrites/fat/grease/eggs/guv'mint incompetence/whatever--We're all going to die from something anyway, one way or another.  Why spend our time making our hobby so antagonistic?


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## alblancher (Sep 20, 2011)

As someone still new to curing bacon you may not yet fully appreciate both sides of the discussion.  Cure 1 is mixed with additional salt, sugar and spices and then applied just like TQ either as a dry cure or a wet cure.  The only two advantages Cure 1 has over TQ is no Nitrates and you can control how much salt is used in the cure mix.  Some of the observations you are making are at the root of our often uncomfortable discussions

Personally I use a dry cure process with Cure 1 because I like a less salty, drier, firmer bacon.  The process I am happy with is described in the Dry Cured Bacon Wiki

We will be doing almost 100 pounds of dried cured bacon at SELA,  I'll be sure to post some picks of the process and end results.


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## tjohnson (Sep 20, 2011)

I started curing bacon with Morton's TQ and it served me well.  Due to health reasons, I needed to cut my salt intake, so switched to Cure #1.  My recipe included brown sugar, kosher salt(Limited) and other spices into the dry cure. 

Then, I came across "Country Brown Cure".  It contains everything necessary to cure bacon, and is widely use by butcher shops up here.  You can use it "As Is", or add brown sugar, salt  and spices to your liking.  I add extra brown sugar, salt and spices to it.

I've tried both Brine Curing and Dry Curing.  To be fair, I tried a test where I Brine Cured 1/2 my batch of bacon and Dry Cured the other 1/2.  Both batches of bacon were good, but we preferred the Dry Cured Method.

Like anything else in this hobby we all share, curing meat is a process that can and will evolve, if you're willing to try other methods.  I've "Tweaked" my recipe over a dozen or so batches, and really like where it's at now.  On my last batch, I spread pure maple syrup on one side of a slab, and coated it with CBP.  This was by far, our favorite bacon.  My only regret, was that I did not make more!

That said, I'm always open to trying something new!

I suggest you try different methods, until you find what works best!

Todd


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## cgaengineer (Dec 22, 2011)

As long as you dont burn your bacon to a piece of charcoal you should be fine using MTQ. Besides, I am sure that sitting in traffic breathing car exhaust is likely more dangerous than over cooked bacon cured with MTQ. I am a MTQ user but I also use cure #1...I dont have a preference, but I generally use MTQ because its easy and I just ordered 12lbs of it. I also picked up 8 oz of cure #1 yesterday so I will use that as well.


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## big casino (Dec 23, 2011)

I am on my first batch of bacon, I used rytek kutaz dry  method, so I used Cure#1, I prefer using Cure#1 in my recipes cause like stated better control of salts and sugars.

I too have read about the USDA's recommendation about not using nitrates in Bacon,

but what I would like to know is if it is not ok to use MTQ  for curing bacon, why would it be ok for curing sausage?

I fry just as much Keilbassa, hot dogs, summer sausage as I do bacon.

And to the Fellow Pittsburghers on this thread, if youinz need MTQ, I have gotten it at the Friedmans grocery store in Saxonburg, if it is a long trip for you call and ask if they got it on stock


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## cgaengineer (Dec 23, 2011)

Big Casino said:


> I am on my first batch of bacon, I used rytek kutaz dry  method, so I used Cure#1, I prefer using Cure#1 in my recipes cause like stated better control of salts and sugars.	 	I too have read about the USDA's recommendation about not using nitrates in Bacon,	but what I would like to know is if it is not ok to use MTQ  for curing bacon, why would it be ok for curing sausage?	I fry just as much Keilbassa, hot dogs, summer sausage as I do bacon.	 	And to the Fellow Pittsburghers on this thread, if youinz need MTQ, I have gotten it at the Friedmans grocery store in Saxonburg, if it is a long trip for you call and ask if they got it on stock



It has to do with the amount of heat used when cooking. Somewhere (and it might be on USDA website) it shows the way it was cooked at which the concentrations were highest...the more well done the bacon the higher the concentrations of nitrosamines. I guess it's not really the temp at which it was cooked as much as how well done it was cooked.

Raw bacon was lowest, burnt bacon was highest. And cooking bacon in a microwave produced the fewest nitrosamines.


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## alblancher (Dec 23, 2011)

Big Casino and CGAEngineer

Do you fry the sausage to crispy?  If so then maybe you should consider using Nitrites to cure your short term cured sausages.  This topic has been discussed at great length on this forum and I hope you can get a feel for the tone of these conversations by reading some of the older posts.   Once you read some of these posts you will understand why many of us are reluctant to participate in another.

My opinion has become that I recommend not using nitrate based cures on bacon or any meat that will brought to temperatures common when "frying to a crisp".  This is one reason I do not use Tender Quick.  The other reason is the amount of salt in Tender Quick compared to the amount of salt in Cure1.

Many of us are older and are looking to control the amount of salt in our diets or just simply prefer a less salty final product.  Using Cure1 allows us to reduce the salt in our cures.

The other thing I have decided is that if the USDA recommendations for not using Nitrates in bacon are not enough reason to not use them then by all means continue using Nitrate cures.  Many very respected members of this forum continue to use nitrate based cures for bacon.   This site can only recommend and educate.  Embracing the advice offered on this forum is strictly up to the reader.  

You will find that we are sticklers about things like proper internal temperatures, the 4 hour rule, proper food handling and curing techniques but we understand that what someone does in the kitchen for his family and friends are up to them.

 Potentially dangerous posts will be reviewed by the Moderators and Administrators and if required either edited or deleted   Other then that there is a lot of latitude and freedom for what is welcome on Smoking Meat Forum.  We like learning from each other and find that new members in particular offer some great insights and sometimes just "make us think" about things

I enjoy reading your posts and look forward to reading many more.

Al


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