# Curing



## normht (Dec 16, 2010)

I will be making a few pounds of sausage in a short while.Is it O.K. to substitute Morton Tender Quick for Prague powder #1? I have plenty of Morton Tender Quick and would like to use it up.Thanks


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## eman (Dec 16, 2010)

I am not a sausage maker But you CAN NOT substitute cure for cure.

I don't know if you can use TQ for sausage but it would be a different recipe than #1.


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## chefrob (Dec 16, 2010)

eman said:


> But you CAN NOT substitute cure for cure.......


 said the wize nonsausgemakerman.............


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## ak1 (Dec 16, 2010)

You can substitute TQ for prague powder #1, but, it's not a direct substitution. You need to follow the directions of your particular cure for the amount needed for the amount of meat you have. With that, you may need to adjust the amount of salt added, as I understand that TQ has more salt in it than PP1


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## fpnmf (Dec 17, 2010)

Here is an interesting read about curing salts.

Should clear up your questions.

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## DanMcG (Dec 17, 2010)

AK1 said:


> you may need to adjust the amount of salt added, as I understand that TQ has more salt in it than PP1


If I was to use TQ, I wouldn't add any additional salt to the spice mix. 

Going by fpnmf's chart it would have the same amount of salt as one of my standard recipes using #1 and salt.( well 2 grams less)

One other issue might be that half the cure in TQ is nitrate and I'm not sure if you would need to cure it longer before smoking or not.


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## ol' smokey (Dec 17, 2010)

normht said:


> I will be making a few pounds of sausage in a short while.Is it O.K. to substitute Morton Tender Quick for Prague powder #1? I have plenty of Morton Tender Quick and would like to use it up.Thanks


First I assume that you intend to smoke the sausage. If your just making fresh sausage that will be frozen then cure is not needed. I would not use TQ in place of Prague #1 as your sausage would simply turn out to salty. Go with the Prague #1 in addition to your seasonings and then smoke. The ratio for Prague #1 is 1 tsp per 5 lbs of meat.


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## shoneyboy (Dec 17, 2010)

fpnmf, that is a great link for the use of cures, Thanks for the post. SB


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## fpnmf (Dec 17, 2010)

Shoneyboy said:


> fpnmf, that is a great link for the use of cures, Thanks for the post. SB


You are welcome and thanks for all you contribute!


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## bbally (Dec 17, 2010)

No you can not substitute TQ for Prague 1.


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## ak1 (Dec 17, 2010)

bbally said:


> No you can not substitute TQ for Prague 1.


Sure you can. See my previous post #4.


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## mballi3011 (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm with Bob (Bbally) on this one and say that you can't substitute the 2 cures. I guess I'm lucky for I know a guy in Tallehassee and I have both prague #1 and tender quick so I don't have to worry about it.


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## normht (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for the help.I'll order some pp#1.Thanks again.


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## beer-b-q (Dec 17, 2010)

Since this subject keeps popping up I decided to contact Morton Salt a while back and here is the reply I received Yesterday.  Please note  the differences in TQ and Instacure #1 or Prague #1.

Morton's Tender Quick more closely resembles Instacure #2 than it does Instacure #1 because of the sodium nitrate in it.

Notice that Instacure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite which is the maximum permitted by FDA rules. Tender Quick only has 0.5% Sodium Nitrite and 0.5% Sodium Nitrate. I would therefore have to agree with Bob that TQ is not a complete cure.


> Thank you for contacting Morton Salt.
> I'll be glad to mail you a complimentary Home Meat Curing Guide.Our meat curing salts contain Nitrate and Nitrite, these are the curing agents.
> Prague powder is a generic term for meat curing mixtures, not a trademarked name.
> 
> ...


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## ak1 (Dec 17, 2010)

OK, so  explain to me why I can't substitute one cure for another. In post #4 I said that it's doable as long as you use the right proportions of cure to meat and adjust the salt in the recipe. My opinion is that you could substitute one cure for another as long as you adjust the amount based on the instructions Am I wrong in my thinking? Or ,are we just reading the OP's post differently?


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## dalton (Dec 17, 2010)

in my limited  understanding of the subject I would agree with AK1 in that you can use tenderquick instead of cure #1 but you need to use it in the correct cure to meat ratio for the cure you are using.  now I do believe that with morton tenderquick that the cureing time could be longer because the nitrate and nitrite are in lower concentrate amounts.   but then again with instacure #1 which is 6.25%(from above post) sodium nitrite you use 1 tsp per pound of meat and with TQ you use 1.5 teaspoon per pound of meat.  that is 50% more by volume but still less sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite when you seperate it out.  so the question is how much sodium nitrate and sodium nitrate is enough?  the next question is how long it needs to cure based on amount of sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.  I would guess that a smaller amount will still cure it but it would take longer, but that is just a guess. 

bear what is your input...   I understand you have alot of experience with TQ?

as I understand it tenderquick was designed with the home sausage maker in mind and contains both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite to give it both quick and long curing properties.  sodium nitrate converts to nitrite in a slow cure and in a fast cure the nitrite is used to speed up the cureing time.  so tenderquick covers both the fast and the slow.  but you definatly need to be aware of the amount of salt in the TQ and account for that in the recipie.  I would be interested in seing the "cureing guide" available from morton to see thier specificaitons.  I can't find any locally so i will have to contact morton directly and see if I can get one.

dalton


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## eman (Dec 17, 2010)

The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.


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## chefrob (Dec 17, 2010)

eman said:


> The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.


that's how i took it and it seemed to me that he was taking about a straight quanity to quanity sub...................


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## scarbelly (Dec 17, 2010)

chefrob said:


> eman said:
> 
> 
> > The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.
> ...


I also took it that way. In fact if a person with the correct knowledge of how to write a recipe with the proper cure amounts, you could use any kind of cure


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## shooterrick (Dec 17, 2010)

I use TQ in sausage all the time *BUT you must use the correct measurement for TQ NOT the measurements for another cure per pound of ground meat.*

*Secondly,  *curing times may need to be adjusted based on a specific cures recommendations.

*   *


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## Bearcarver (Dec 17, 2010)

TQ can be used like the other #1 cures, but you have to use the right amount of whichever one you are using.

Whole meat----1 ounce of TQ per 2 pounds of meat

ground meat---1/2 ounce of TQ per 2 pounds of meat

The length of time curing would be the same----The variance in time would be between dry curing and pickle (wet) curing.

This is what I go by. If I'm wrong somebody tell me.

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Dec 17, 2010)

Beer-B-Q said:


> Since this subject keeps popping up I decided to contact Morton Salt a while back and here is the reply I received Yesterday.  Please note  the differences in TQ and Instacure #1 or Prague #1.
> 
> Morton's Tender Quick more closely resembles Instacure #2 than it does Instacure #1 because of the sodium nitrate in it.
> 
> ...


*This is why I figure TQ is the same as Cure #1:*

According to my figures----That makes TQ the same thing as Instacure #1in the Nitrites amount---See my figures below:

That would be 0.5% of the TQ by volume*
As opposed to 6.25% of the Instacure by volume.

Since we use 1 ounce of TQ for 2 pounds of meat*

And we use 1 ounce of Instacure for 25 pounds of meat.

That would mean we use 12 1/2 times as much TQ as we use of Instacure per pound of meat.

12.5  X (times) .5 = 6.25, which makes the dosage per pound of meat exactly the same as Instacure #1 as TQ----6.25%.

That's the way I figure it.

These figures have nothing to do with Cure #2.

John


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## fpnmf (Dec 17, 2010)

Dalton said:

"  but then again with instacure #1 which is 6.25%(from above post) sodium nitrite you use 1 tsp per pound of meat and with TQ you use 1.5 teaspoon per pound of meat."   

Sorry sir, that is not correct! The correct amount is 1tsp per 5 pounds of meat.


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## alblancher (Dec 17, 2010)

Bear,

You are very careful of the amounts of cure that go into foods having had that conversation with me in the Bacon forum.  The only concern I have with using Tenderquick to substitute for Cure 1 is that you are ignoring the Nitrates in the Tenderquick. Adjusting the amount of tenderquick to get the proper amount of Nitrite does nothing to remove the Nitrate in the tenderquick.


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## shooterrick (Dec 17, 2010)

Bear thank you.  I somehow new you would put it in plain langquage for us. 

I am certain your info is correct and appreciate the knowlege.

Shooter


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## Bearcarver (Dec 17, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Bear,
> 
> You are very careful of the amounts of cure that go into foods having had that conversation with me in the Bacon forum.  The only concern I have with using Tenderquick to substitute for Cure 1 is that you are ignoring the Nitrates in the Tenderquick. Adjusting the amount of tenderquick to get the proper amount of Nitrite does nothing to remove the Nitrate in the tenderquick.


Good eye HB,
I know that. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

However I'm not worried about it, because I go by what Mortons says in their recipes.

When I figure that one out, you'll be first to know---I promise.

This thread was for whether we can use TQ instead of Cure #1.

I say yes, but in much different amounts, and I do.

Thanks,

Bear


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## shooterrick (Dec 17, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Good eye HB,
> I know that. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
> 
> However I'm not worried about it, because I go by what Mortons says in their recipes.
> ...


Somewhere I believe I have read that the nitrate is converted during the cooking process but I am not sure.  This may be a starting place to look Bear.  Let us know. 

Shooter


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## dalton (Dec 17, 2010)

fpnmf said:


> Dalton said:
> 
> "  but then again with instacure #1 which is 6.25%(from above post) sodium nitrite you use 1 tsp per pound of meat and with TQ you use 1.5 teaspoon per pound of meat."
> 
> Sorry sir, that is not correct! The correct amount is 1tsp per 5 pounds of meat.


it that is wrong I apoligize but as I said in my quote I took that from the above post.  so far my only hands on experience is with TQ.  I am quite sure that it is 1/2 tablespoon per pound of ground meat.  if I am wrong in that please let me know!!

dalton


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## dalton (Dec 17, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Beer-B-Q said:
> 
> 
> > Since this subject keeps popping up I decided to contact Morton Salt a while back and here is the reply I received Yesterday.  Please note  the differences in TQ and Instacure #1 or Prague #1.
> ...


john,

thanks for doing the math for me.  i was planning on looking up the exact amounts for the cure # 1 when I got home and doing exactly that equation to find out if they were the same amount of sodium nitrate and sodium nitrate when used in the proper quanites. 

sorry if I posted the wrong amount for cure #1 in my earlier post.  thanks for pointing that out.

dalton


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## beer-b-q (Dec 17, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> *This is why I figure TQ is the same as Cure #1:*
> 
> According to my figures----That makes TQ the same thing as Instacure #1in the Nitrites amount---See my figures below:
> 
> ...


Bear your conversion would actually work out like this wouldn't it?.

TQ:

Sodium Nitrite:  12.5  X (times) .5 = 6.25, which makes the dosage per pound of meat exactly the same as Instacure #1 as TQ----6.25%.

Sodium Nitrate: 12.5  X (times) .5 = 6.25, *which is more than in Instacure #2 which is 4%*

Prague Powder #2, (also known as Instacure No 2) contains 6.25% sodium nitrite, 4% sodium nitrate, 89.75 salt and anti caking agents.


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## bbally (Dec 17, 2010)

TQ is not a substitute for Prague 1 or cure 1 or instacure 1 or any commercial cure with 6.25 percent sodium nitrite.  It cannot be substituted.

TQ will cure meat when using it the way it is recommended by the manufacturer.

Up to you if you want to continue to play with TQ.  Might want to read up on Nitrate, because cure 1 does not have nitrate... you will need to go to complete conversion temperatures.  You will also want to become familiar with the nitrosamine formation that takes place when nitrate break to nitrite in association with protein.  This compound forms when taking nitrate to complete conversion temperatures in the proper protein environment.

This compound does cause cancer in the endocrine system of the human body.  I doubt the advice to use TQ  as a substitute comes from people who understand this and can develop recipes for making safe products.  The problem with the TQ is the Nitrate level, it raises Nitrate to a calculated level above GRAS listed Cure 2.... in a recipe that is calling for Cure 1.

Sausage curing safely is not as easy as it may appear, partial knowledge, and guessing can be doing things to you and your family you never thought would happen.  Study the conversion of Nitrite to NH3 in the body and you begin to realize how fast you can kill a young person when their hemoglobin is suddenly unable to take on O2 for life support.

You are free to do what you want with guessing and TQ substituting for Cure 1.  It is NOT, and NEVER will be a substitute for cure 1 and it is not and never will be a substitute for cure 2.  But please don't send a new person to curing and smoking down the road of potentially killing someone because you are determined to prove something is what it is not and never will be.

It is a product to help home people cure some meat with success.  It is not for use as a substitute for the cure called for in commercial recipes.  EVER!

please read this in a discussion tone, sometimes when I bullet point facts and ask people to think beyond what they understand at this point in their education they take it wrong.  I am not bitchin at people or arguing with people, I just want people to understand how complex what we do is, sometimes with the premix sausage packages and such people tend to forget this is real chemistry and real science so they think cause they made a pepperoni they understand curing on some advance level.  When you start changing recipes or substituting recipe ingredients you are messing with chemistry you need to know what reactions you may be causing.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 18, 2010)

What bbally says is correct about the difference between TQ & other cures.

What Beer-B-Q and AlBlancher say about the amount of nitrates in TQ is correct.

I am still looking into why there is that much nitrates in TQ.

Maybe my whole problem is what all of you mean by the word "substitution".

My curing recipes are either directly from Morton's, or adjusted from a Morton's recipe.

They were not substituted from a recipe that had cure #1 or cure #2 in it !

I don't recommend for anyone to take a recipe that uses any of the cure #1s, or cure #2s, and convert that to a recipe with TQ.

Like I said, I am still looking into the nitrate amount in TQ. If it is as dangerous as it is being suggested in this thread, I would think they should not be able to sell it, or list it in the recipes I have used.

Continuing to research,

Bear


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## bbally (Dec 18, 2010)

The nitrate is added to protect the meat when it is thicker.  It goes through two break downs... Nitrate to Nitrite to O3 and NO3

This lengthens the effective protection period the cure can provide.  It it the reason Cure 2 exists as well,  just at the normal commercial concentration.

The problem with Nitrate is when we adjusted the amount of nitrate allowed in food back in 1920s... this led to the greatest period of Gastro Cancer decline in the USA.

Other things are being done that many new to curing may not know about yet in their curing careers.  Absorbic acid inhibits the formation of nitrosamines this allows concentrations higher then normal and still protect the end consumer.

We have other things we do when curing as well.  Accelerators, and he biggest one yet to be used by the home cure market is the products we use commercially to stop Fat Oxidation.  These two products will improve the quality of your home made products by an order of magnitude.

Again, please read this as a conversation not a bitchin session.  I am only putting out information for consideration and to prompt investigation by those interested in home curing as a hobby.  I want people to be safe and to learn more and more about their hobby.  I am not bitchin at anyone.  So no need to email me that I think I know it all yadda yadda yadda... I already know from the questions being asked where the holes are in the knowledge and I post my replies to help people discover where they have holes in what they understand about curing so they learn more._   I do_  not post to ridicule anyone.


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## alblancher (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks BBally for such an informative post.

A brief internet search on the conversion of Nitrates to Nitrites indicates that nitrates are relatively innocuous to the human body,  The problem is that high heat, saliva and bacteria in the digestive system reduces the nitrate to nitrite, toxic in higher concentrations.  Seems that nitrites bind with hemoglobin in human blood reducing its Oxygen carrying capacity (as pointed out by BBally).   This condition is extremely dangerous to "infants" and in high enough concentrations dangerous to adults.

Nitrite is in Tenderquick at a lower concentration than in Cure 1

Nitrates are in Tenderquick but not in Cure 1

Heat converts Nitrite to Nitrate

Is Morton considering that putting Tenderquick in cooked sausages converts the Nitrate to Nitrite getting to acceptable Nitrite levels in the final product?

Al


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## Bearcarver (Dec 18, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Thanks BBally for such an informative post.
> 
> A brief internet search on the conversion of Nitrates to Nitrites indicates that nitrates are relatively innocuous to the human body,  The problem is that high heat, saliva and bacteria in the digestive system reduces the nitrate to nitrite, toxic in higher concentrations.  Seems that nitrites bind with hemoglobin in human blood reducing its Oxygen carrying capacity (as pointed out by BBally).   This condition is extremely dangerous to "infants" and in high enough concentrations dangerous to adults.
> 
> ...


Al,

I agree with what you say, except the nitrites in TQ seem to be exactly the same amount (per pound of meat in recipes) as in the other cure #1s.

Notice to all:

bbally is the guy who knows this stuff best---"Trusted Authority" noted beside his name is not a joke.

Thanks Al,

Bear


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## shooterrick (Dec 18, 2010)

Great thread and I must reread this a few times to digest all the info.  As far as TQ in sausage it seems the bottom line is that cure 1 avoids any potential concerns with nitrates and their convertion during cooking.  Is this correct?  If so would you say TQ is best left to whole cuts of meats such as Canadian Bacon and such?   Since I keep both on hand If you have cure 1 is there really any good reason to continue to stock TQ?  It is early and I am going back to bed.  To many martunies last night for Sandys birthday for me to really digest all this right now.  LOL


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## Bearcarver (Dec 18, 2010)

I would say that TQ is best used for Dry curing, and the cure #1s are best used for wet curing, because of the difficulty of spreading a mere 1 ounce over 25 pounds of meat.

I would also say they are both currently good for sausages. When They make Morton's remove their recipes from their book & their web site, I will definitely change my mind on that. Until then I will continue to research.

This is a recipe taken directly from Morton's web site & from their Home curing book:

*Ingredients *
1 pound lean ground beef
1-1/2 level teaspoons *Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup]  Tender Quick[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup]  mix*  or *Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup]  Sugar Cure[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup]  *(plain)
1 teaspoon liquid smoke
3/4 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon mustard seed
1/2 teaspoon fennel seed, slightly crushed
1/4 teaspoon crushed red pepper
1/4 teaspoon anise seed
1/4 teaspoon garlic powder  
Link to that page on their site:

http://www.mortonsalt.com/recipes/RecipeDetail.aspx?RID=46

Compare that to my "Beef Stick" recipe.

Basically all I did was change it to 80/20, remove the liquid smoke, adjust the seasonings a bit, and smoke it.

I use their recommended amount of TQ.

Bear


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## ak1 (Dec 18, 2010)

Great posts bbally. Now I understand why you can't substitute TQ for cure #1 even in the correct amounts.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 18, 2010)

ShooterRick said:


> Great thread and I must reread this a few times to digest all the info.  As far as TQ in sausage it seems the bottom line is that cure 1 avoids any potential concerns with nitrates and their convertion during cooking.  Is this correct?  If so would you say TQ is best left to whole cuts of meats such as Canadian Bacon and such?   Since I keep both on hand If you have cure 1 is there really any good reason to continue to stock TQ?   It is early and I am going back to bed.  To many martunies last night for Sandys birthday for me to really digest all this right now.  LOL


Shooter,

You could use my reason:

If you want to dry cure 25 pounds of Pork Loin for Canadian Bacon/smoked pork chops, that would call for 1 ounce of cure #1.

How can you evenly distribute 1 ounce of anything over all four sides of 25 pounds of meat?

If you want to wet/brine cure everything, I would guess you could do without TQ.

Bear


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## fpnmf (Dec 18, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> ShooterRick said:
> 
> 
> > Great thread and I must reread this a few times to digest all the info.  As far as TQ in sausage it seems the bottom line is that cure 1 avoids any potential concerns with nitrates and their convertion during cooking.  Is this correct?  If so would you say TQ is best left to whole cuts of meats such as Canadian Bacon and such?   Since I keep both on hand If you have cure 1 is there really any good reason to continue to stock TQ?   It is early and I am going back to bed.  To many martunies last night for Sandys birthday for me to really digest all this right now.  LOL
> ...


I make my bacon  by your recipe. Works great.

When I made the andouille sausage it called for #1. I thought about using the TQ. Did some reading and the recipe called for less salt than the TQ would provide.

I followed the recipe by combining all the spices and the chopped garlic.

Added the tsp of #1 and 1/4 cup ice water and mixed it with the cubed meat. Tossed it for a few minutes.

It was spread out nice. Bagged and into the fridge for 2 days.

The sausage turned out great.

I am looking at some other sausage recipes that call for #2, but I can't see why as the recipes look like the ones that call for #1.

This a great thread and thanks for all the info folks. This is a wonderplace.


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## boykjo (Dec 18, 2010)

normht said:


> I will be making a few pounds of sausage in a short while.Is it O.K. to substitute Morton Tender Quick for Prague powder #1? I have plenty of Morton Tender Quick and would like to use it up.Thanks


If he has plenty of TQ it will take more than a few lbs of meat to use it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bearcarver (Dec 18, 2010)

fpnmf said:


> Bearcarver said:
> 
> 
> > ShooterRick said:
> ...


Shooter,

I meant 25 pounds of solid whole meat.

Sounds like you did right by your sausage.

I think that cure #2 is for special types of curing, but I don't know much about it at all.

Bear


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## shooterrick (Dec 18, 2010)

Bear that makes perfect sense.  I will reserve my TQ for most dry cure applications and use Cure 1 for most sausage recipes.  To date I brine very little.  It is mostly due to limited fridge space for now.  I have used TQ on simple hams and mixed a reserved portion of the cure wet and injected since these have a deeper muscle form.  I believe Morton also adresses this technique on there web sight. 

Rick


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## beer-b-q (Dec 18, 2010)

Beer-B-Q said:


> Bear your conversion would actually work out like this wouldn't it?.
> 
> TQ:
> 
> ...


I just noticed a mistake in the above math...  I should have caught it earlier but didn't...

Taking 12.5 X the amount of TQ does nothing to change the % of Nitrites and Nitrates in the cure, it only increases the volume of TQ.

Example:

Take a 100 gallon tank containing 10 gallons of liquid would = 10% liquid, Multiple that by 10 and you would have a 1000 gallon tank containing 100 gallons of liquid it would still = 10% liquid

 


Bearcarver said:


> Shooter,
> 
> You could use my reason:
> 
> ...


Bear, I believe that is why you place it in a container and turn it every day and not drain off the liquid.  that way it coats all parts of the meat evenly... If you drain off any of the liquid which builds up you are removing the cure...  The accumulated liquid is its own brine for the distribution of the cure... Just my take.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

Beer-B-Q said:


> Beer-B-Q said:
> 
> 
> > Bear your conversion would actually work out like this wouldn't it?.
> ...


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

Beer-B-Q said:


> > Shooter,
> >
> > You could use my reason:
> >
> ...


Yes Paul--You're absolutely right, that's why I turn my packages over every day (and never drain any off), when I have the right amount of TQ in each package.

But with cure #1, the problem is not getting the right amount that is in each package on all sides of the piece of meat in that package.

The problem with dry curing with Cure #1 is getting the right amount distributed on the pieces of meat before you put the pieces & the cure into the package.

Try it sometime:

Lay out 3 Pork loins, that are 8.3 pounds each. That would be 3 pieces of meat, about 15" long X 2 1/2" to 3" thick X about 5" wide.

Now take one (1) tiny little ounce of cure, or anything else, and try to distribute it evenly over all 4 sides of those 3 pieces-----Impossible !

That would be spreading it out over approximately 750 square inches----Over 5 square feet.

Or you could cut each of those pieces in half, like I do with TQ, but that would mean, you're going to have to spread 1/6 ounce over about 130 square inches.

And if you put sugar & salt in each package, with the 1/6 ounce of cure, will the brine created by the sugar & salt be able to transport that little bitty 1/6 ounce of cure to all 130 square inches, just by flipping it every day?

With TQ, you have 12 1/2 times as much to spread over those pieces. Very easy to do.

Bear


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## bbally (Dec 19, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Beer-B-Q said:
> 
> 
> > >
> ...


You assume that someone is taking just Cure 2 and trying to disperse it over a piece of meat.

When using Cure 1 or Cure 2 generally we are making our own mix.  The measure of the cure is to get the correct amount for the weight of meat to end up at 200 PPM.  The cure is mixed with sugar, salt, spices and other things and then dispersed.  So no one is taking cure 1 or2 and trying to disperse it, they are taking cure 1 or 2 and creating a dry rub with it and dispersing that over the meat.

Cure one and two are created in the same way TQ is created.  That is the Nitrite and/or nitrate is bound to a salt carrier.  This is done to insure the specific gravity of the cure matches the mix being created for even dispersement.  I can go into the chemistry of equilibrium if you really want to know how it works.  But that gets into some pretty wild dilution and molecular movement formulas.  But it does equilize itself out during the curing time similar to the way the salt does when brining poultry.

Also many are using it to create a pickle and wet cure.  Which also creates a larger volume to disperse the sodium nitrite and/or nitrate.  Again this is an osmosis type molecular equilibrium being achieved over time.

So don't think of it as trying to disperse cure 1 or cure 2, think of it as cure 1 or 2 become a premix in the recipe which increases volume and then osmosis through equilibrium ensures the concentrations get dispersed throughout the product.

This is the reason time is so important to most cure recipes.


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## alblancher (Dec 19, 2010)

Happy Birthday Sandy!  Glad you had some of them Martonies?  They must have been REAL good!  I really need to follow this thread better then I can while sitting in a hotel room but I did want to send the shout out to my friend.

Happy birthday

You're the only person I know that looks younger every year!

Al and Liz


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

bbally said:


> Bearcarver said:
> 
> 
> > Beer-B-Q said:
> ...


Good points Bob, 

And that is why I said Cure #1 is great for the pickle/wet cure.

But Morton's mixing "propylene glycol" to keep the mixture uniform.  This way it stays mixed, and gets distributed evenly over the meats you are curing.

I don't think John Doe or Joe Smith, or very many people on this forum have access to propylene glycol, or the knowledge to use it properly like Morton's uses it.

So without that stuff to keep your mix even, one piece of meat could get 1 % cure #1, and 99% other stuff, and another piece could get 20% cure #1, and 80% other stuff.

I'm not a scientist like you, I could be wrong, but these are my thoughts on this subject. If I was going to "wet cure" I would use cure #1, but since I believe Morton's can mix their cure better than I can, I use TQ for Dry curing.

Bear


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## shooterrick (Dec 19, 2010)

I respect both Bears and Bballlys opinions greatly.  I guess the bottom line for me is *(are my practices safe?)*

I am using cure 1 when a wet cure like the marinade for Jerky is being used and since my spices and cure for sausage are always suspended in a cold liquid I am using cure 1 in sausage.

When I am dry curing like Canadian Bacon I am using TQ.

When I am making a ham type product with larger cuts of meat than Tenderloin I am using TQ for the dry rub/cure but reserving 25% of the rub/cure and suspending it in cold liquid and injecting that all around the meat like a pump or pickle.

Are My Procedures Faulty assuming I am measuring correctly and allowing proper cure times?


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

ShooterRick said:


> I respect both Bears and Bballlys opinions greatly.  I guess the bottom line for me is *(are my practices safe?)*
> 
> I am using cure 1 when a wet cure like the marinade for Jerky is being used and since my spices and cure for sausage are always suspended in a cold liquid I am using cure 1 in sausage.
> 
> ...


Shooter,
bbally knows a lot more about all of the ins & outs of curing & food safety than I ever will, but what you just said about how you do those various things, I would have to say could not get better than that.

Bear


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## fpnmf (Dec 19, 2010)

I bought 3 books  when I decided I was going to start/learn to make sausage.

Charcuterie... Ruhlman & Polcyn

Great susage recipes and meat curing....4th..Kutas

Meat smoking and smokehouse design...Marinski brothers

I have learned a lot from all 3 books.

Probably all of your questions would be answered with some reading time.

I have also read and learned here:   http://lpoli.50webs.com/Sausage recipes.htm#DRY     and here :  http://www.sausagemaker.com/  

and the site I listed previously.

 I am not being a smart**s. Just trying to help.


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## shooterrick (Dec 19, 2010)

Thanks brother.  I have Kutas book and others.  These are questions which come up often on the forum and while I agree the answeres can be found elsewhere we often try and facilitate discussions as some just won't look elsewhere probably due to their excitement in starting this adventure.

I have been curing bacon and sausage for some time.  My goal during this discussion is to try and boil a great deal of information down to simple and safe procedures.  The wealth of knowledge of our members can be overwhelming to many new to this. 

No offense has been takin and I appreciate the referenced info.  Your contribution is of importance as it makes those thinking about getting into curing meats but may be afraid thinking it some how is magical or very difficult understand reliable info is available on the subject.


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## chefrob (Dec 19, 2010)

bear, i see yer points (and concern) on proper distrubution of #1 over a large cut of meat for a dry cure. as someone wanting to get away from the High Mountain cure (i like it but want more salt/flavor control) i see using #1 in a homemade cure mix sorta like sowing fine (small) seed, a trick is to mix it with sand so you can more evenly distribute it over a larger area of ground. isn't this the same thing? also if TQ is .5%-.5% and #1 6.25% by volume, aren't you just adding more TQ to bring the amount of curing agent(s) up to the needed amount to properly cure. FYI, i have only used the High Mountain BBB cure and dispite others saying it is too salty or just not liking it i have used it with great results.......and i am not a fan of overly salted foods. i want to try other cures so i can control salt/sugar/flavor profiles and i am planing to venture into other areas of cured meats but like everyone else i want to do it safely. it is threads like this that are both informative and make us take a look at our own food handling practices......keep up this good discussion.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

chefrob said:


> bear, i see yer points (and concern) on proper distrubution of #1 over a large cut of meat for a dry cure. as someone wanting to get away from the High Mountain cure (i like it but want more salt/flavor control) i see using #1 in a homemade cure mix sorta like sowing fine (small) seed, a trick is to mix it with sand so you can more evenly distribute it over a larger area of ground. isn't this the same thing? also if TQ is .5%-.5% and #1 6.25% by volume, aren't you just adding more TQ to bring the amount of curing agent(s) up to the needed amount to properly cure. FYI, i have only used the High Mountain BBB cure and dispite others saying it is too salty or just not liking it i have used it with great results.......and i am not a fan of overly salted foods. i want to try other cures so i can control salt/sugar/flavor profiles and i am planing to venture into other areas of cured meats but like everyone else i want to do it safely. it is threads like this that are both informative and make us take a look at our own food handling practices......keep up this good discussion.


From what I have read, a regular home meat smoker can not mix cure with other things properly. Morton's mixes Propylene Glycol with theirs to do that. You might think you mixed cure #1 & salt & other things properly, but you really can't, because of the specific gravity of the different ingredients. That is where the Propylene Glycol come in. You could get more cure #1 here, and less there, without the propylene glycol. Like I said, I'm not a scientist---this is what I have read.

Many people say TQ has too much salt, but I go by the exact amounts that Morton's say, and I have never had anything taste too salty. My son even says my Beef Sticks aren't salty enough. I don't taste any salt in them, but I don't really want to. I have said this before, but I have never had to soak anything more that 1/2 hour to get rid of extra salt, except High Mt BBB cure----3 hours of soaking.

I'm betting at least 20 guys on this forum have made my Unstuffed Beef Sticks, and I didn't hear anyone say it was salty. That recipe has the exact amount of TQ that Morton's says to use in their Pepperoni recipe.

The only part I still haven't found out about is why the higher amount of Nitrates in that TQ, but like I said, I don't worry about it, because I figure Morton's knows a lot more than I do. As long as I follow their instructions exact, I figure I'm good.

Right now I'm still digesting the Eagles///Giants game----Eagles down 24-3. Then they score 4 TDs in the last 7 minutes to win it in regulation time 38---31, including a Punt returned for TD with the clock running out. Yet another Miracle of the Meadow Lands.

I was at a party, and got home just in time to see the last 5 minutes. That must have been my Christmas Present!

OOOOPS, sorry, I got a little off track there!!!

Bear


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## DanMcG (Dec 19, 2010)

I respectfully disagree with you Bear , I've been mixing #1 with salt, sugars and spices for 25 years and only once  have I had a gray spot in a large pork shoulder that didn't get the cure. and if Mortons  Propylene Glycol   is the secert to curing i count me out and do a wikipedia seach of it . it really can't be good for ya.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 19, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> I respectfully disagree with you Bear , I've been mixing #1 with salt, sugars and spices for 25 years and only once  have I had a gray spot in a large pork shoulder that didn't get the cure. and if Mortons  Propylene Glycol   is the secert to curing i is the secert to a good cure count me out and do a wikipedia seach of it . it really can't be good for ya.




Dan,

You aren't disagreeing with me.

I'm just repeating what I have read about mixing cure with other ingredients.

I'll also read Wiki as soon as I have time, but Morton's hasn't been sued yet--to my knowledge---I'll still read all I can.

I know I have often put different color ingredients in a container, and put the lid on & shook the living crap out of it, and when I opened it there was big areas of the same color ingredients. In other words if it was black & white ingredients, it would not have been gray after shaking more than one would think would be needed. Had one of those ingredients been cure, and they all were the same color, I would have never known it didn't mix well.

Thanks Dan,

Bear


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## chefrob (Dec 19, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> Propylene Glycol   is the secert to curing i count me out and do a wikipedia seach of it . it really can't be good for ya.


PG is used in th drug industry as well as the food industry..........i'm sure it is safe at some level.


> Yet another Miracle of the Meadow Lands.


 my stillers didn't fare so well.......................


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## fpnmf (Dec 19, 2010)

Chef rob said:>>>PG is used in th drug industry as well as the food industry..........i'm sure it is safe at some level.  

Used by cigar smokers too. To maintain 70% humidity in humidors.


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## chefrob (Dec 19, 2010)

fpnmf said:


> Chef rob said:>>>PG is used in th drug industry as well as the food industry..........i'm sure it is safe at some level.
> 
> Used by cigar smokers too. To maintain 70% humidity in humidors.


i used to use it in my humidors but i now use beads that not only put out humidity but absorb it as well..........


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

Must be a different Wiki.

Nothing scary here:
[h3]Humans[/h3]
The acute oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans; propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid  (a normal part of the glucose-metabolism process, readily converted to energy), acetic acid  (handled by ethanol-metabolism), lactic acid  (a normal acid generally abundant during digestion),[sup][9][/sup]  and propionaldehyde.[sup][10][/sup][sup][11][/sup]  Serious toxicity generally occurs only at plasma concentrations over 1 g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[sup][12][/sup]  It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1 g/kg of PG. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are usually related to either inappropriate intravenous administration or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children.[sup][13][/sup]  The potential for long-term oral toxicity is also low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG in feed over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.[sup][14][/sup]  Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol was classified by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration  as "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive.

Prolonged contact with propylene glycol is essentially non-irritating to the skin. Undiluted propylene glycol is minimally irritating to the eye, and can produce slight transient conjunctivitis (the eye recovers after the exposure is removed). Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of the propylene glycol vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of propylene glycol mists could be irritating to some individuals. Therefore inhalation exposure to mists of these materials should be avoided. Some research has suggested that propylene glycol not be used in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.[sup][15][/sup]

Propylene glycol does not cause sensitization and it shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or of being genotoxic.[sup][16][/sup][sup][17][/sup]

Link to Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

Also found it is used in a whole lot of other cures (less than 2% they say).

Like I said, if it was harmful, Morton's would not be using it. It must be safer than not using it, or they wouldn't put it in???

Thanks,

Bear


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## DanMcG (Dec 20, 2010)

Hmmm,  I'm not sure what I was reading , but what you posted doesn't sound to bad for ya.

Dan


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> Hmmm,  I'm not sure what I was reading , but what you posted doesn't sound to bad for ya.
> 
> Dan




Don't forget Dan, I'm not a scientist--just a searcher.

This is a pretty good thread---Got everybody thinking.

Thanks for your input,

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

Just ran into this in my searching:

To be effective in curing meat, there must be the correct amount of nitrates and nitrites evenly distributed throughout the curing mixture.  Too much or too little nitrates or nitrites is ineffective and possibly dangerous.  However, it is very difficult for a home cook to create the proper curing mixture, because the ingredients of salt, sugar and nitrates cannot be mixed effectively.  The proper amount of nitrate and nitrite are less than 1%.  Simply combining the ingredients is ineffective, because "stratification" occurs, so that the nitrates and nitrites will not be distributed evenly throughout the mixture.

Many years ago, the Morton Salt people developed Tender Quick, so that the home cook could safely cure meat.  The ingredients in Tender Quick are *bonded*.  Basically, bonding means that the ingredients are mixed with water to achieve a solution and then dried.  This guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even in the smallest amounts.

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say, only easier to understand than my gibberish.

Bear


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## chefrob (Dec 20, 2010)

i thought i had read that somewhere........
 


Bearcarver said:


> The ingredients in Tender Quick are *bonded*.  Basically, bonding means that the ingredients are mixed with water to achieve a solution and then dried.  This guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even in the smallest amounts.


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## bbally (Dec 20, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> Just ran into this in my searching:
> 
> To be effective in curing meat, there must be the correct amount of nitrates and nitrites evenly distributed throughout the curing mixture.  Too much or too little nitrates or nitrites is ineffective and possibly dangerous.  However, it is very difficult for a home cook to create the proper curing mixture, because the ingredients of salt, sugar and nitrates cannot be mixed effectively.  The proper amount of nitrate and nitrite are less than 1%.  Simply combining the ingredients is ineffective, because "stratification" occurs, so that the nitrates and nitrites will not be distributed evenly throughout the mixture.
> 
> ...


This is a marketing piece from Morton.  It is them trying to make their product seem better for a home user then cure 1.  While I agree that they do make a nice product.  The marketing hype is just that marketing...

Never had a problem with my cure mixes in 34 years of curing.

I had read this on the Morton site, makes sense that they found a way to disperse the stuff evenly, but it is strawman they are setting up to knock down, not a real problem.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

bbally said:


> Bearcarver said:
> 
> 
> > Just ran into this in my searching:
> ...


Bob,

I still think it's a good thing to post this possible problem. I am not a Morton's rep or a shill for them:

You never had a problem with it in 34 years. Dan only had a problem once in 25 years.

How about a guy who didn't even know there could be such a problem, who throws 3 TBS of salt, 1 TBS of sugar & a quarter ounce of cure #1 in a bowl. Then he gives it a little stir or two with a spoon, like he does with his favorite rib rub, and then applies it to a 6.25 pound pork loin (calling for 1/4 ounce of cure #1). Couldn't that be a problem, with possibly all that cure at one end of the loin, and nothing on the rest of it?

Since I think that could be a problem, I bring this to the forum as a warning. People can heed that warning, or ignore it.

Bear


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## bbally (Dec 20, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> bbally said:
> 
> 
> > Bearcarver said:
> ...


As I said in my post above.  I think it is a nice product and it is neat how they did that.

That said I cannot imagine how we could write anything up that would take into account the chance of somebody screwing something up.  So thinking of the guy that only stirs this with a spoon for a few minutes means this person did not do their research correctly and needs to get more information.  Same could be said the other way, say a person subs TQ for Cure 1 and does not realize they are different products and something goes wrong?????   All we can do is put the information out there like we have been doing for people to review and ask questions about.


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## chefrob (Dec 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Bearcarver*  

 


> Just ran into this in my searching:
> 
> ..........  Simply combining the ingredients is ineffective, because "stratification" occurs, so that the nitrates and nitrites will not be distributed evenly throughout the mixture............ The ingredients in Tender Quick are *bonded*.  Basically, bonding means that the ingredients are mixed with water to achieve a solution and then dried.  This guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even in the smallest amounts.


i was thinking the same for the nitrite/nitrate in cures #1 and #2 in regards to stratification when i found this.............  


> Sodium nitrite, even in small quantities, is very dangerous, and can kill. The lowest known lethal dose of sodium nitrite is 71mg per kg of body weight. At this level, about a tsp of pure sodium nitrite could be enough to kill an average sized adult.
> 
> This is why it is mixed in small quantities with salt, dissolved into water, then turned back into a uniform crystal and then dyed pink.


http://hubpages.com/hub/Whats-the-D...a-Cure-2-Understanding-Which-You-Need-and-Why


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

bbally said:


> Bearcarver said:
> 
> 
> > bbally said:
> ...


Absolutely---I'd say we're doing a pretty good job of putting info out there, but if I have to keep defending it, some could start to think I have no idea what I'm talking about.

When the guy that says the problem I'm pointing out is "A Straw Man created by the producer of a product", has "Trusted Authority" next to his name, who's going to worry about how they stir it, or worry about any warnings I present?

Bear


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## DanMcG (Dec 20, 2010)

I know what you're saying about distributing the small amount of cure #1 throughout the meat bear but I don't see it as an issue. For me it has work 99.9% of the time.  And I don't think it will separate from the moment you mix it to the time you rub it. My method is to place all the ingredients in a zip lock bag and shack the heck out of it till its all one color, then I fell its mixed well enough. It has to be something on the molecular level,  because if it can find its way to the meat in a belly thru all the layers of fat then its not the mix or the rubbing....It's almost magic.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






(Sorry I just love that smily)

I started curing in the 80's with Rytec Kutas's book and that's why I use #1, cause that's what he used.

I'm feeling an experiment coming on, anybody with me?


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## Bearcarver (Dec 20, 2010)

DanMcG said:


> I know what you're saying about distributing the small amount of cure #1 throughout the meat bear but I don't see it as an issue. For me it has work 99.9% of the time.  And I don't think it will separate from the moment you mix it to the time you rub it. My method is to place all the ingredients in a zip lock bag and shack the heck out of it till its all one color, then I fell its mixed well enough. It has to be something on the molecular level,  because if it can find its way to the meat in a belly thru all the layers of fat then its not the mix or the rubbing....It's almost magic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently the scientists at Morton's thought it was a big enough issue to design something to assist the home meat smoker in the safety of mixing cures & keeping them mixed.

I doubt they even considered it was magic.


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## dalton (Dec 21, 2010)

well all I can do is bow down and say "Im not worthy"

all you folks have many years experience with this and I am just a newbie but here is my 2 cents.

when I first started to get into this fun hobby I bought the same books listed in the previous post and one of the most memorable peices of information that i read was in the meat smoking and smokehouse design by marianski brothers.  he was talking about how there was a big public scare about how nitrate and nitrite was soooo bad and then there was a LOT of reasearch done on the subject and the the government came up with maximum amounts to be used by the meat packing plants and manufactures of sausage and other processed meats.  the amounts of nitrate and nitrite in cure #1 and TQ are within that maximium allowed, and that maximum allowed by the government is a quite abit lower than any research was shown to be toxic.  in addition to that marianski also said that there was no difinitive findings that it was as bad as suggested at the time.  I don't have a direct quote but I encorage anyone to read this book as I found it very informative and at the end of the section on curing I felt very comfortable using the various different cures available so long as I WAS USING THEM AS INTENDED AND INSTRUCTED BY THE MANUFACTURE OF THE CURE!!!!!!. 

that being said I see the points of both bbally and bear, and I would like to thank each one of them as well as all the others for bringing their knowledge and expertise here for all us other folks to benifit from.  I would tend to agree with bear in that TQ has the cure "premixed" or "bonded" with salt so that it makes it very difficult to screw it up interms of too much cure in one place and easier to spread around. I remember thinking the first time I mixed cure into 5lb of ground meat that if I was using cure #1 that making sure that I spread it evenly would have been more difficult because I would have been working with such a small amount by comparision.  in my case I mixed the TQ  with the meat seperatly because I wanted to make sure that it was spread around evenly and then mixed the spices in.  the only problem that bbally seems to have with that is the additonal nitrate that is contained in the TQ.  again I looked back at the section on curing in the book my marianski and felt very comfortable with that not being a problem.(just my humble opinion)  so, If for the sake of discussion, i am not concerned with the nitrate then TQ seems to be a product with less risk for someone like me with less expereince than folks like bbally or dan.  please understand that in my short time here in the forum I have gained a great deal of respect for both of them as well as bear and many others and don't want to offend anyone!!.  but as a newcomer to all of this I do very much appreciate this thread as it brings many points of view up for discussion. 

in a wet cureing application I can see that cure #1 would work well because you are not so worried about manually spreading it around because it is mixed with liquid.  but again if I am not concerned by the nitrate, for the sake of discussion, is there any downside to using TQ in the proper amount? 

once again I would like to thanks to all the members in this forum who share their knowledge so freely so that poeple like me can learn about this fun hobby from folks who have already made all the mistakes and can help us avoid them or correct them. 

dalton


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## Bearcarver (Dec 21, 2010)

dalton said:


> well all I can do is bow down and say "Im not worthy"
> 
> all you folks have many years experience with this and I am just a newbie but here is my 2 cents.
> 
> ...




Thank you Dalton for your kind words.

In answer to your question that I highlighted in red:

You can adjust the amount of salt when using cure #1.

But you can not adjust the salt amount in TQ (downward).

However, as I reported earlier, with TQ, I have never had to soak any solid whole meat more than 1/2 hour to eliminate salt taste, and my beef sticks & sausages don't have the slightest bit of salt taste (IMHO). And that is using TQ exactly as suggested by Morton's.

Also, I do exactly like you do. I spread my TQ all over the piece of meat first (to make sure it's all covered). Then I spread sugar & any other seasonings all over the meat. I do this on a clean plate. Then I can make sure anything that falls off gets put in that bag with that piece.

Thanks again,

Bear


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## shooterrick (Dec 21, 2010)

Ok this is some great info from Bear and Bbally.  If I may take a moment to boil down some points.  

1. If you use cure 1 you can better adjust salt content to your liking.

2. If you use cure 1 you must be certain any cure mix is mixed to the point of being as homogenous as possible.

3  Cure 1 and TQ are not interchangable on a 1:1 basis.

4. TQ may be a better choice for the novice as it is premixed within the carriers.( Namely Salt )

5. Regardless of the cure you use you must measure with a high degree of accuracy.

6. Both Cure 1 and TQ are good safe products if used as directed by the manufacturer.

This may seem oversimplified considering the previous posts by Bear and Bbally but for the novice I am guessing this can be somewhat confusing.  If any of the above statements is inaccurate please feel free to correct them.


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## alblancher (Dec 21, 2010)

Just got back from out of town so if this comment has been addressed I apologize but in my opinion TQ has Nitrates in the mix and should not be used when preparing a product for immediate consumption.  I would not use TQ in hot smoked sausages/meats that are cured, stuffed, hot smoked or pan fried and served in a couple of day time frame. 

TQ seems to be a product that will allow some latitude in the process.  Safe for a fairly broad range of recipes but not necessarily 100% right for any specific technique.   Cure 1 and Cure 2 allow you add the appropriate amount of the appropriate type of curing agent to your specific application. 

Maybe TQ is good for smokers that may not complete the curing process correctly.  The TQ provides a safety factor at the expense of adding a curing agent that may not be needed by more careful users.  The toxicity of nitrates to healthy adults seems to be uncertain, to very young children only potentially dangerous but balanced against the dangers of improperly cured meats, minor.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 22, 2010)

ShooterRick said:


> Ok this is some great info from Bear and Bbally.  If I may take a moment to boil down some points.
> 
> 1. If you use cure 1 you can better adjust salt content to your liking.
> 
> ...


Basically:
#1----Yes

#2----Yes

#3----Yes

#4----Yes

#5----Yes

#6----Yes

Bear


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## Bearcarver (Dec 22, 2010)

alblancher said:


> Just got back from out of town so if this comment has been addressed I apologize but in my opinion TQ has Nitrates in the mix and should not be used when preparing a product for immediate consumption.  I would not use TQ in hot smoked sausages/meats that are cured, stuffed, hot smoked or pan fried and served in a couple of day time frame. I'm still looking into this, and so far the only thing I have found about the extra "nitrates" in TQ is that you shouldn't fry your Bacon or anything else Well Done at 600˚ or more. Do you have a link for that "couple of day time frame"? I have not run into that one yet---I'd like to see it. (thanks)
> 
> TQ seems to be a product that will allow some latitude in the process.  Safe for a fairly broad range of recipes but not necessarily 100% right for any specific technique.   Cure 1 and Cure 2 allow you add the appropriate amount of the appropriate type of curing agent to your specific application. TQ is right for what is supposed to be used for, just like Cure #1 is right for what it was designed for & cure #2 is right for what it was designed for. I use TQ for everything I cure, but I haven't cured anything that should be cured with Cure #2.
> 
> Maybe TQ is good for smokers that may not complete the curing process correctly.  The TQ provides a safety factor at the expense of adding a curing agent that may not be needed by more careful users.  The toxicity of nitrates to healthy adults seems to be uncertain, to very young children only potentially dangerous but balanced against the dangers of improperly cured meats, minor. No cure is good for those who don't complete the process properly. The main safety factor in TQ is the salt, making it too salty to eat if you use too much. No matter how careful one is mixing Cures like cure #1, that have not been bonded, there is still a chance for it to not be spread out evenly when Dry Curing. TQ's bonding takes that chance away. If you mix Cure #1 really really well, that chance is lessened to a very safe point.


My replies in red above,

Bear


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## alblancher (Dec 22, 2010)

The couple of day time frame is in reference to the fact that Nitrates require time or extreme conditions (high temp, acidity ) to reduce to nitrite.  The purpose of Nitrates in Cure 2 used for long cure time salamis and hams is to provide a source of Nitrite over the curing period.  Nitrates do nothing to prevent spoilage, nitrites and their eventual conversion to NO do all the work.  The reason I used the couple of day time frame is that Cure 1's concentration of nitrites are sufficient for the cure process during that relatively brief time period.  This is the reason Cure 1 is recommended for curing bacon 10 - 14 day time frame in refrigeration vs Cure 2 for Country Ham's 6 - 24 month process at temps in the 40 - 60 degree range.

In *my opinion* TQ is not 100 percent right for any application I am familiar with simply because it provides both nitrites and nitrates as provided by Cure 2 but in insufficient concentrations to qualify it for use in long term cure applications. Just my opinion and we all know that my opinion plus $1.09 will buy a small cup of coffee at McDonald's. 

If you improperly mix the cure, seasonings, water and meat the type of cure you are using is irrelevant.  If you do not know how to use a scale or measuring spoons and cups the type of cure you use is irrelevant.  If you do not know how to expand a recipe or can't convert grams to ozs or liters to cups the type of cure you are using is irrelevant.  When discussing recipes we all have to make certain assumptions, the reader understanding and possessing basic cooking skills is one of those assumptions.  Where we can help is to try and provide a safety zone for people trying recipes that call for different ingredients, times and temperatures.  Why are there so many different techniques and recipes for the same product?  Take a look at the number of recipes for basic smoked sausage.  I must have a dozen different recipes for smoked sausage on my harddrive, and those are just the recipes that I have decide to keep.  

A neophyte smoker/curer that possesses basic skills is more likely to make a mistake as the result of a bad recipe, improper temperature control (especially us stick burners), and improper timing (especially us multitaskers).  TQ may be a good product because its combination of curing agents is more forgiving.   For the truly uninformed smoker/curer there are no good processes.  Basic curing and smoking are midlevel skills and not recommended for people that possess no understanding of food safety or cooking techniques.

I believe it is our responsibility as posters to this forum to help identify unsafe recipes, point out bad techniques and make recommendations that result in safe, delicious final products.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 22, 2010)

alblancher said:


> The couple of day time frame is in reference to the fact that Nitrates require time or extreme conditions (high temp, acidity ) to reduce to nitrite.  The purpose of Nitrates in Cure 2 used for long cure time salamis and hams is to provide a source of Nitrite over the curing period.  Nitrates do nothing to prevent spoilage, nitrites and their eventual conversion to NO do all the work.  The reason I used the couple of day time frame is that Cure 1's concentration of nitrites are sufficient for the cure process during that relatively brief time period.  This is the reason Cure 1 is recommended for curing bacon 10 - 14 day time frame in refrigeration vs Cure 2 for Country Ham's 6 - 24 month process at temps in the 40 - 60 degree range.
> 
> In *my opinion* TQ is not 100 percent right for any application I am familiar with simply because it provides both nitrites and nitrates as provided by Cure 2 but in insufficient concentrations to qualify it for use in long term cure applications. Just my opinion and we all know that my opinion plus $1.09 will buy a small cup of coffee at McDonald's.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you say above, but as for the one I highlighted in red, maybe somebody should tell Morton's that their product is not 100% right for any application.







Bear


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## normht (Dec 16, 2010)

I will be making a few pounds of sausage in a short while.Is it O.K. to substitute Morton Tender Quick for Prague powder #1? I have plenty of Morton Tender Quick and would like to use it up.Thanks


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## eman (Dec 16, 2010)

I am not a sausage maker But you CAN NOT substitute cure for cure.

I don't know if you can use TQ for sausage but it would be a different recipe than #1.


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## chefrob (Dec 16, 2010)

eman said:


> But you CAN NOT substitute cure for cure.......


 said the wize nonsausgemakerman.............


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## ak1 (Dec 16, 2010)

You can substitute TQ for prague powder #1, but, it's not a direct substitution. You need to follow the directions of your particular cure for the amount needed for the amount of meat you have. With that, you may need to adjust the amount of salt added, as I understand that TQ has more salt in it than PP1


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## fpnmf (Dec 17, 2010)

Here is an interesting read about curing salts.

Should clear up your questions.

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## DanMcG (Dec 17, 2010)

AK1 said:


> you may need to adjust the amount of salt added, as I understand that TQ has more salt in it than PP1


If I was to use TQ, I wouldn't add any additional salt to the spice mix. 

Going by fpnmf's chart it would have the same amount of salt as one of my standard recipes using #1 and salt.( well 2 grams less)

One other issue might be that half the cure in TQ is nitrate and I'm not sure if you would need to cure it longer before smoking or not.


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## ol' smokey (Dec 17, 2010)

normht said:


> I will be making a few pounds of sausage in a short while.Is it O.K. to substitute Morton Tender Quick for Prague powder #1? I have plenty of Morton Tender Quick and would like to use it up.Thanks


First I assume that you intend to smoke the sausage. If your just making fresh sausage that will be frozen then cure is not needed. I would not use TQ in place of Prague #1 as your sausage would simply turn out to salty. Go with the Prague #1 in addition to your seasonings and then smoke. The ratio for Prague #1 is 1 tsp per 5 lbs of meat.


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## shoneyboy (Dec 17, 2010)

fpnmf, that is a great link for the use of cures, Thanks for the post. SB


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## fpnmf (Dec 17, 2010)

Shoneyboy said:


> fpnmf, that is a great link for the use of cures, Thanks for the post. SB


You are welcome and thanks for all you contribute!


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## bbally (Dec 17, 2010)

No you can not substitute TQ for Prague 1.


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## ak1 (Dec 17, 2010)

bbally said:


> No you can not substitute TQ for Prague 1.


Sure you can. See my previous post #4.


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## mballi3011 (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm with Bob (Bbally) on this one and say that you can't substitute the 2 cures. I guess I'm lucky for I know a guy in Tallehassee and I have both prague #1 and tender quick so I don't have to worry about it.


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## normht (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for the help.I'll order some pp#1.Thanks again.


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## beer-b-q (Dec 17, 2010)

Since this subject keeps popping up I decided to contact Morton Salt a while back and here is the reply I received Yesterday.  Please note  the differences in TQ and Instacure #1 or Prague #1.

Morton's Tender Quick more closely resembles Instacure #2 than it does Instacure #1 because of the sodium nitrate in it.

Notice that Instacure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite which is the maximum permitted by FDA rules. Tender Quick only has 0.5% Sodium Nitrite and 0.5% Sodium Nitrate. I would therefore have to agree with Bob that TQ is not a complete cure.


> Thank you for contacting Morton Salt.
> I'll be glad to mail you a complimentary Home Meat Curing Guide.Our meat curing salts contain Nitrate and Nitrite, these are the curing agents.
> Prague powder is a generic term for meat curing mixtures, not a trademarked name.
> 
> ...


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## ak1 (Dec 17, 2010)

OK, so  explain to me why I can't substitute one cure for another. In post #4 I said that it's doable as long as you use the right proportions of cure to meat and adjust the salt in the recipe. My opinion is that you could substitute one cure for another as long as you adjust the amount based on the instructions Am I wrong in my thinking? Or ,are we just reading the OP's post differently?


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## dalton (Dec 17, 2010)

in my limited  understanding of the subject I would agree with AK1 in that you can use tenderquick instead of cure #1 but you need to use it in the correct cure to meat ratio for the cure you are using.  now I do believe that with morton tenderquick that the cureing time could be longer because the nitrate and nitrite are in lower concentrate amounts.   but then again with instacure #1 which is 6.25%(from above post) sodium nitrite you use 1 tsp per pound of meat and with TQ you use 1.5 teaspoon per pound of meat.  that is 50% more by volume but still less sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite when you seperate it out.  so the question is how much sodium nitrate and sodium nitrate is enough?  the next question is how long it needs to cure based on amount of sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.  I would guess that a smaller amount will still cure it but it would take longer, but that is just a guess. 

bear what is your input...   I understand you have alot of experience with TQ?

as I understand it tenderquick was designed with the home sausage maker in mind and contains both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite to give it both quick and long curing properties.  sodium nitrate converts to nitrite in a slow cure and in a fast cure the nitrite is used to speed up the cureing time.  so tenderquick covers both the fast and the slow.  but you definatly need to be aware of the amount of salt in the TQ and account for that in the recipie.  I would be interested in seing the "cureing guide" available from morton to see thier specificaitons.  I can't find any locally so i will have to contact morton directly and see if I can get one.

dalton


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## eman (Dec 17, 2010)

The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.


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## chefrob (Dec 17, 2010)

eman said:


> The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.


that's how i took it and it seemed to me that he was taking about a straight quanity to quanity sub...................


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## scarbelly (Dec 17, 2010)

chefrob said:


> eman said:
> 
> 
> > The reason that i said they are not interchangeable is that 1 the op did not ask about recipe or ammounts . 2 he is a newbie w/ only 4 post, He may have plenty of experiance but i dont know that and 3 they are not interchangeable one for one the ammounts must be modifed to work and be safely used.
> ...


I also took it that way. In fact if a person with the correct knowledge of how to write a recipe with the proper cure amounts, you could use any kind of cure


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## shooterrick (Dec 17, 2010)

I use TQ in sausage all the time *BUT you must use the correct measurement for TQ NOT the measurements for another cure per pound of ground meat.*

*Secondly,  *curing times may need to be adjusted based on a specific cures recommendations.

*   *


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