# Understanding brine ratios



## cueinco (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm brand new to this whole topic and have been trying to educate myself. I've read multiple threads about Pop's brine. My plan is to use that as a base to make corned beef. The only change will be the addition of the spices for corned beef (e.g. allspice).  After all St Paddy's day is almost upon us. 

Where my question is originating, is that I'm also reading "Home production of Quality Meats and Sausages" by the Marianski's. In the section on Immersed, Pumped and Massaged Products, they are recommending 6 TBSP (4.2 oz, 120g) of Cure #1 per gallon of water for a brine for corned beef. I understand that this would give you the MAXIMUM limit of 200 ppm of nitrite. They then go on to say that while there is a maximum specified limit, there is no specified minimum limit. They state "It has been accepted that a minimum of 40-50 ppm of nitrite is needed for any meaningful curing." 

Am I correct in my belief that using Pop's brine recipe with 1 TBSP of Cure #1 per gallon of water, I'd have 33.33 ppm of nitrite in the brine? I'm not doubting that Pop's brine is great, based on all the testimonials on this site. What I'm trying to understand is why one source says 40 ppm and another says 33 ppm? 

I know Pop's recipe is based on years of experience. Is it just an issue of different experiences? Is it that 33.33 is close enough to 40? Given the possibilities for negative consequences with too much cure, I'm happy to err on the low side. I just would like to understand the "why"?  

Thanks for you thoughts.


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## tropics (Feb 17, 2015)

max cure #1 per gallon water

Per tablespoon, there is about .88 oz. in a level tablespoon of curing salt.

3.84 ÷ .88 = 4.36 tablespoons of Cure #1 (to be safe, round down to 4 tablespoons).

Hope this helps This was also posted by Pops


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## daveomak (Feb 17, 2015)

Pops recipe......

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/110799/pops6927s-wet-curing-brine


1 Tbs. cure #1 is ~ 0.6 oz  = 28.38 x 0.6 = 17 grams cure #1.... x 0.0625 = 1.06 grams nitrite in 1 gal. or 8.35 #'s x 454 = 3800 grams water......

1.06 grams nitrite in 3800 grams water = 279 Ppm Nitrite.......  That is what Pops brine is, give or take....  If I haven't had a brain [email protected]%t....


If you can cram 8#'s of meat into the 1 gal. brine, over time it will be 140 ish Ppm nitrite.......  16 #'s of meat will be 95 ish Ppm nitrite....  all of the above are fine.....


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## cueinco (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks for the reply. If I take the Marianski's recommended 4.2 oz and divide it by Pop's .88oz/tablespoon, I get 4.77 tablespoons. So, it would seem that the difference in the max calculation is the size of one's tablespoon. That helps. 

What I really wanted to know though, "what's the minimum effective amount of cure?". If my math is correct, then it would seem that Pop's brine is really 41.9 ppm per gallon of water (200 ppm at 4.2 oz would be 41.9 ppm if only .88 oz was used). That would jibe with the Marianski's statement to stay between 40-50 ppm to be effective.

Maybe it's a misprint in the book. They say to achieve 200 ppm per gallon use  "4.2oz, or 120grams, or 20 teaspoons, or 6 tablespoons" of Cure #1. I wonder what weight they were assuming per tablespoon. 

Thanks for the education.


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## daveomak (Feb 17, 2015)

CueInCO said:


> Thanks for the reply. If I take the Marianski's recommended 4.2 oz and divide it by Pop's .88oz/tablespoon, I get 4.77 tablespoons. So, it would seem that the difference in the max calculation is the size of one's tablespoon. That helps.
> 
> What I really wanted to know though, "what's the minimum effective amount of cure?". If my math is correct, then it would seem that Pop's brine is really 41.9 ppm per gallon of water. That would jibe with the Marianski's statement to stay between 40-50 ppm to be effective.
> 
> ...




Marianski's recipes have flaws in them.....   He may hire folks to do his proof reading that don't understand curing or English even....  Heck, I don't know but there are flaws in books, the web and on blogs.....  You can't trust any of them....  you need to get educated in curing....   

This is a good place to start.....


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## daveomak (Feb 17, 2015)

By the way.......   Throw out all your measuring cups and spoons.......  Purchase an electronic scale that weighs 0-500 grams and a calibration weight to go with it.....  

Then you can safely start curing.....


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## jraiona (Feb 21, 2015)

I'm just wanting to see if I'm on the right track with my calculation. I come up with 41 ppm for Pop's brine.  Is this correct?


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

Jraiona said:


> I'm just wanting to see if I'm on the right track with my calculation. I come up with 41 ppm for Pop's brine.  Is this correct?




Re read post #3  .....   Your math is in error.....  Pops brine is 279 Ppm nitrite when mixed as directed......    I put the correct math in that post so you might be able to follow it.....


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

If you make a brine with 40 Ppm nitrite in it.....  then you add meat......  the meat will be SIGNIFICANTLY less than 40 Ppm.....


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

Ppm is a comparison of weights......

1 pound of salt added to 1,000,000 pounds of water is .....   1 Part per million salt in water....

1 gram of nitrite added to 1,000,000 grams of water is........   1 Part per million nitrite water....

if you added a 1,000,000 gram hunk of meat to that same water, the concentration of nitrite would be 1/2 Ppm nitrite in the water AND in the hunk of meat after equilibrium took place...


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## jraiona (Feb 21, 2015)

Please forgive my lack of understanding but in post #3 what does the 28.38 represent?


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

Jraiona said:


> Please forgive my lack of understanding but in post #3 what does the 28.38 represent?


1 ounce in gram weight.


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## jraiona (Feb 21, 2015)

Thank you so much. I'm really wanting to learn and understand.


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

Jraiona said:


> Thank you so much. I'm really wanting to learn and understand.


So am I. A little confused as to how according to the Marianski book 120gm/gal of cure is equal to 200ppm, while 17gm/gal in Pop's brine is equal to 279ppm.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 21, 2015)

chewmeister said:


> So am I. A little confused as to how according to the Marianski book 120gm/gal of cure is equal to 200ppm, while 17gm/gal in Pop's brine is equal to 279ppm.


Haven't heard of the magic "pump rate"? Aparently the meat knows when you use the strong brine (Marianski's) and takes only 10% of liquid (including the nitrite that comes with it). In pops brine the meat behaves intuitively and reaches equilibrium.

Sarcasm aside...Wade is running an experiment to clarify this confusion for all of us.


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## jraiona (Feb 21, 2015)

There really does seem to be a lot of ambiguity.


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> Haven't heard of the magic "pump rate"? Aparently the meat knows when you use the strong brine (Marianski's) and takes only 10% of liquid (including the nitrite that comes with it). In pops brine the meat behaves intuitively and reaches equilibrium.
> 
> Sarcasm aside...Wade is running an experiment to clarify this confusion for all of us.


Good to hear.


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

Jraiona said:


> There really does seem to be a lot of ambiguity.




It's not ambiguous when you apply the mathematics to it.......


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## jraiona (Feb 21, 2015)

You are probably correct. I'm just not understanding the math, not my strongest suit.


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Marianski's recipes have flaws in them.....  * He may hire folks to do his proof reading that don't understand curing or English even....  Heck, I don't know but there are flaws in books, the web and on blogs.....  You can't trust any of them....  you need to get educated in curing....
> 
> *This is a good place to start.....






DaveOmak said:


> By the way.......  * Throw out all your measuring cups and spoons.......  Purchase an electronic scale that weighs 0-500 grams and a calibration weight to go with it.....  *
> 
> Then you can safely start curing.....






DaveOmak said:


> Re read post #3  .....   *Your math is in error.....  Pops brine is 279 Ppm nitrite when mixed as directed......    I put the correct math in that post so you might be able to follow it.....*


*
*



chewmeister said:


> *So am I. A little confused as to how according to the Marianski book 120gm/gal of cure is equal to 200ppm, while 17gm/gal in Pop's brine is equal to 279ppm.
> *




*
Marianski's book is in ERROR.....*


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> [/B]
> 
> *Marianski's book is in ERROR.....*


I hear what you're saying, however if Pop's brine is 279ppm and the safe limit is 200ppm, how is this a safe amount?


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## daveomak (Feb 21, 2015)

chewmeister said:


> I hear what you're saying, however if Pop's brine is 279ppm and the safe limit is 200ppm, how is this a safe amount?




Ppm is based on weight....    

If you have 1 gallon of water at 8.35 pounds and that is at 279 Ppm.........    Then you add 8 .35 pounds of meat to that gallon of water.......

You have twice the weight and the same amount of nitrite......   THEREFORE, when equilibrium happens, the water and the meat absorb the dissolved ingredients, and they become equal..........

The end result will be.......   water ~140 Ppm nitrite..........     meat ~ 140 Ppm nitrite....

The law/method of 200 Ppm nitrite max in bacon ( is actually 120 Ppm when in a brine, pumped method) ......    ACTUALLY reads .....  INGOING NITRITE......     

So the maximum amount of INGOING NITRITE will be ~140 Ppm......

When you read this stuff on curing, you have to read all the words and get the meaning....   


Now to add additional information so you can get a thorough understanding of curing....

When you do a dry rub, and "dry brine" bacon....  that is rubbing with salt, sugar and cure #1....  then put in a zip bag so none of the ingredients are lost during the process....... 

The cure #1 you are applying is......   ready......    62,500 Ppm nitrite....   that's ~ 300 times the amount of 200 Ppm......     Yet it is legal and the proper way to "dry brine"......


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> *Ppm is based on weight....*
> 
> If you have 1 gallon of water at 8.35 pounds and that is at 279 Ppm......... Then you add 8 .35 pounds of meat to that gallon of water.......
> 
> ...


I get that, but there is no reference to weight of product anywhere in Pop's brine recipe.


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## pops6927 (Feb 21, 2015)

In response to curing questions on ppm, here is the FSIS explanation:

Here is the way to calculate PPM:

*USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, page 7: Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = ppm

First you need to find out how much Sodium Nitrite is in a specific amount of Cure. Let's say that we want to use 3oz of
InstaCure#1. You have to find what 3 oz is in LBS, this is done by dividing 3 by 16 (because there are 16 ozs in a pound),
this comes to 0.1875 lbs.

Cure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite. So, to find out how much Nitrite is in that 0.1875 lbs of Cure, multiply 0.1875 by that
percentage as a decimal… 0.1875 x 0.0625 = 0.01171 lbs Sodium Nitrite in 3 oz Cure.

The ‘weight of brine’ is simply how heavy the water/brine is… One gallon of water weighs approximately 8.33 lbs.

Now to find the Parts Per Million (ppm), here is the formula:

multiply nitrites by % pump by 1,000,000 and DIVIDE it by the weight of your brine.

Here is the ppm formula for 3 oz Cure#1:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = parts per million
0.01171 x 0.10 x 1,000,000 / 8.33 = ppm
0.001171 x 1,000,000 / 8.33 = ppm
1171 / 8.33 = ppm

140 ppm nitrite in 1 gallon of water when using 3 oz of Cure#1.

My brine is considerably lower, 1/3rd as much.  My dad argued, and won, with the State of NY Meat Inspection that his lower nitrite brine was safe and effective when left to cure longer and would produce a more tender, more flavorful, product and was allowed to continue for 40 years.

For the Metric side of the world:

*USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, page 7:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = ppm

First, you need to find out how much Sodium Nitrite is in a specific amount of Cure.

Let's say that we want to use 85g of InstaCure#1. InstaCure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite.

So, to find out how much Nitrite is in that 85 grams of Cure, multiply 85 by 6.25% as a decimal… 85 x 0.0625 = 5.3125g Sodium Nitrite in 85g Cure.

The ‘weight of brine’ is simply how heavy the water/brine is… One gallon (3.78 l) of water weighs approximately 3,778g.

Now to find the Parts Per Million (ppm), here is the formula: multiply nitrites by % pump by 1,000,000 and DIVIDE it by the weight of your brine.

Here is the ppm formula for 85g Cure#1:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = parts per million 5.3125 x 0.10 x 1,000,000 / 3,778 = ppm 0.53125 x 1,000,000 / 3,778 = ppm 531,250 / 3,778 = ppm

140 ppm nitrite in 1 gallon (3.78 l) of water when using 85 grams of Cure#1.


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## chewmeister (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks for clarifying that Pops.


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## inkjunkie (Feb 21, 2015)

This stuff gives me a headache.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 21, 2015)

Pops ,

We get the math. What doesn't make sense is why the 10% pump rate is applied to the 3oz cure but not to yours.


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## cueinco (Feb 21, 2015)

Edited after reading Pop's post.

Pop's, thanks very much for taking the time to explain this. It would seem that you and the Marianski's *are* on the same page. They said 4.2 oz for 200 ppm (actually 198.95 ppm per your formula above) and you're saying 3 oz for 140 ppm. Thank you I was really confused as to how 6 TBSP in one recipe is 200 ppm and 1 TBSP in another is 279. Short of one of them being down-right wrong, I couldn't figure out the difference. There seems to be a lot of confusion and mis-information floating around. 

It would seem that your father's recipe is safer by erring on the low side. It also would seem that you're confirming that 40-50 ppm is effective for an ingoing brine, if your dad's recipe is about 42 ppm. 

I can now go back to reading the Marianski's book without having to assume that the book is in error and the recipes are just wrong. So far, I've found it a helpful read. 

Thank you again to taking the time to help educate me/us.


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## daveomak (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm confused.......

4.2 oz. @ 28.38 grams per ounce  =  119.18 grams cure #1....   X  0.0625% nitrite  =  7.45 grams of nitrite in 4.2 oz. cure #1

1 gal. water = 8.35 pounds x 454 grams per pound = 3791 grams in 1 gal. water....

7.45 grams nitrite in 3791 grams water = 1,951 Ppm nitrite in water....


If you submerge 8.35 pounds of meat in one gallon of water, weighing ~8.35 pounds...

when the meat comes to equilibrium, it will be 983 Ppm nitrite....


How do you figure that is safe......


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## daveomak (Feb 22, 2015)

Looking at the above post, at 1951 Ppm nitrite in the solution, if you weigh the meat, say 5000 grams, and you pump at a 10% pumping solution, then the meat will have 195 Ppm nitrite in it....   BUT, when you do that, YOU,  CAN NOT put the injected meat back in the brine bucket....  that is an injecting solution and not intended to be an immersion brine....

Pops brine is perfectly safe for injecting and then immersing.....


The above numbers should be adjusted for bacon....   skin off belly 120 Ppm ingoing nitrite.....  skin on belly 108 Ppm nitrite.....   IF you want to follow FDA/USDA guidelines......   AND.....  nitrate is not allowed in bacon products......  

Bellies rubbed for a "dry brine" and bagged for the curing duration, 200 Ppm nitrite is allowed and nitrates are not allowed....


Again, the FDA/USDA recommendations are for commercial processors....  at home, you can do what ever you want...   just remember the guidelines when feeding your children, family and friends.....


Anal about food safety......    Dave


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## jraiona (Feb 22, 2015)

So Pop's brine is applicable for both skin on and skin off?


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## cueinco (Feb 22, 2015)

If you use the above formula that Pop's provided::

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = parts per million

for 4.2 oz (.2625 pounds) I get:

.2625 x 0.0625 = .01640625 nitrite 

.01640625 x .10 x 1,000,000 = 1640.625 

1620.625 / 8.33 = 196.95 ppm 

Are you saying that the brine is safe for a 10% injection but not for a 2 week soak?  Or, if you inject don't then additionally soak? What I read and what Pop's said seemed to jibe, I'm just trying to understand what the issue is. Thanks for any clarification. 

I appreciate the emphasis here on food safety. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone or make someone sick (or dead). Thanks again for the education.


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## cueinco (Feb 22, 2015)

Okay. Here's maybe where my confusion is coming in. The Marianski's say:

_The following is the safe formula for immersed products and very easy to measure: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1. In the above formula at 10% pick-up the nitrite limit is 150 ppm which is plenty. Keep in mind that adding 1 lb. of Cure #1 to 5 gallons of water will give you 4.2% salt by weight and that corresponds to only 16 degrees brine (slightly higher than sea water). If we add an additional 2 lb of salt we will get: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1, 2 lb of salt and that will give us a 25 degree solution which is great for poultry._

_Marianski, Stanley (2013-02-01). Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (Kindle Locations 1035-1039). Bookmagic LLC. Kindle Edition._  

They seem to be assuming either a 10% injection, OR a 10% pick-up (by which I assume they mean absorption). Is there food science, or experience behind the 10% number? As in, if allowed to soak in said brine, meat that is less than 2 inches thick will only absorb 10% of the nitrite?  I'm trying to figure out why a 10% injection is analogous to a 10% absorption in a brine. 

It would seem to me that Pop's brine is safe for both injection and brining since it is 42ppm (using the prior mentioned formula) and therefore well below the 200ppm maximum. BTW, I did ask earlier about minimum effective rates in brine. I understand that the maximum can be 200ppm but do folks agree that 40-50ppm with injection and soaking is effective? 

Just trying to understand.


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## jraiona (Feb 22, 2015)

What is meant by a 16° or 25° brine. Trying to learn and understand.


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## cueinco (Feb 22, 2015)

They recommend using a brine tester. Supposedly a pretty inexpensive tool. From them:

_The salinometer also known as salometer consists of a float with a stem attached, marked in degrees. The instrument will float at its highest level in a saturated brine, and will read 100° (26.4 % salt solution). This is known as a fully saturated brine measured at 60° F._

_In weaker brines the stem will float at lower levels and the reading will be lower. With no salt present the reading will be 0°_.

Marianski, Stanley (2013-02-01). Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (Kindle Location 699). Bookmagic LLC. Kindle Edition.


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## jraiona (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks Cuel. So much to learn.


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## cueinco (Feb 22, 2015)

They do seem to be saying that you can pump and soak in brine, just for not as long. In the section on corned beef, which is where the original question came from, it says:

_Beef is corned with the same brine which is used for hams and other pork cuts. It is not unusual to include in curing brine spices such as bay leaf, allspice and garlic. The meat is usually immersed in brine for about 2 weeks for cuts 3” or less in thickness. If meat is injected with 10% pump, it may be immersed in leftover brine for 5 days only._

Marianski, Stanley (2013-02-01). Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (Kindle Locations 13460-13463). Bookmagic LLC. Kindle Edition. 

In any case, it would also seem that the true measure of "10%" comes from weighing the meat before and after injection and/or brining. Am I reading that right? 

After you remove from the brine would you also allow it to rest in the refrigerator for a few days for the nitrite to establish an equilibrium throughout the cut of meat? 

Thanks for the help. Lots of details and I would not only like to be able to follow a recipe but to understand "why" things are done the way they are in the recipe.


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## chewmeister (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm still a little confused on the ppm thing. What if you're not pumping 10% into the meat? How does this change the concentration of nitrite in the solution?


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## chewmeister (Mar 6, 2015)

That's why I always weigh my cure.


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## rgautheir20420 (Mar 6, 2015)

chewmeister said:


> That's why I always weigh my cure.


This is all why I dry cure


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## chewmeister (Mar 6, 2015)

rgautheir20420 said:


> This is all why I dry cure


Still have to weigh ingredients. I think either method is fine as long as the proper amounts are used.


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## rgautheir20420 (Mar 6, 2015)

chewmeister said:


> Still have to weigh ingredients. I think either method is fine as long as the proper amounts are used.


Agreed. Just with all the brine curing confusion and experimenting going on here, I'm glad my method of choice is dry curing. 

I still read these threads to learn as much as possible though.


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