# Can you tell the difference between Cure #1 vs Cure #2



## jp61 (Nov 20, 2014)

I have not used cure #2 as of yet

The thought popped in my head just now...... how could I tell the difference between the two, they're both pink.

*What* *IF*  there was a "mistake" in the manufacturing and/or packaging chain and I end up with a pound of cure #2, labeled as cure #1.

I realize the chances are very low of this happening but, you know what they say, *STUFF*  happens.

Somewhat relevant...

Couple of years ago, my son, who does not live with me, came over to my house one day before I got home from work and made himself a cup of coffee. My mistake (won't happen again)..... I had a ziplock bag in the cupboard with leftover salt+cure #1 in it. He thought it was sugar........ "what kind of coffee did you buy??? that was the worst coffee I ever tasted!!". He only had one sip.


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## kc5tpy (Nov 20, 2014)

Hello JP.  If it makes you sick, stop using it!

Serious now!  Good question!  You KNOW it WILL happen.  Just a matter of time.  Any time you have human interaction you stand the risk of human error.  I have NO idea of how to tell the difference.  Hopefully someone will come along and educate us both.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## venture (Nov 20, 2014)

Well, Cure # 1 and Cure # 2 have very different purposes and must be used accordingly.

I keep my cures out of the reach of other people and in my storage room. I also keep them VERY well marked for the day when I have a senior moment?

Today I found a jar of mystery stuff in the kitchen with no label.  My other half heard about it.  My limbs are still intact.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Good luck and good smoking.


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## jp61 (Nov 20, 2014)

Venture said:


> Well, Cure # 1 and Cure # 2 have very different purposes and must be used accordingly.
> 
> I keep my cures out of the reach of other people and in my storage room. I also keep them VERY well marked for the day when I have a senior moment?
> 
> ...


That's the reason for the question.

#1 Can you tell which is which without reading the label?

#2 Can you tell which is which without reading the label?


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## crankybuzzard (Nov 20, 2014)

Looks like you can't easily figure it out...  I'm paranoid almost about it and have both in 2 very different looking containers. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrate_test


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## foamheart (Nov 20, 2014)

I keep all my smoking and curing paraphernalia is seperate boxes in the garage kitchen. Just one of those things, but I don't much have to worry about mistakes from others, but still its just safer that way. Besides I would worry more about someone wasting my hard won special secret spices.....LOL.


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## kc5tpy (Nov 21, 2014)

Hello Folks.  I think what JP is talking about is getting a mis-labeled product from a supplier.  At least that's how I read his post.  You order #1, the package says #1 but is actually #2.  If it happens at home and you are unsure then obviously you pitch it but is there any way to tell if the supplier screwed up without having it scientifically analysed.  Just my take on the question.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## themule69 (Nov 21, 2014)

KC5TPY said:


> Hello Folks.  I think what JP is talking about is getting a mis-labeled product from a supplier.  At least that's how I read his post.  You order #1, the package says #1 but is actually #2.  If it happens at home and you are unsure then obviously you pitch it but is there any way to tell if the supplier screwed up without having it scientifically analysed.  Just my take on the question.  Keep Smokin!
> 
> Danny


That is the way I am reading the question. I don't think you are likely to get a cure 1 in a cure 2 package. I am not saying it can't happen. I do think you would see the results in the final product. If you don't think what you cured went right then I would maybe question it. Un till then I would sleep like a baby with out worrying about it. You stand a better chance of tripping and falling going to the smoker.

Happy smoken.

David


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 21, 2014)

themule69 said:


> You stand a better chance of tripping and falling going to the smoker.
> Happy smoken.
> David



Now you got me worried. There were almost 8 million ER visits due to falls in US in 2010.


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## themule69 (Nov 21, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> Now you got me worried. There were almost 8 million ER visits due to falls in US in 2010.


Yeah but not all of them were on their way to the smoker 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





.

Happy smoken.

David


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## foamheart (Nov 21, 2014)

I believe that if the chemical company mislabeled the cure, I would be rich. Chemicals ain't like a class action tire law suit, chemicals now thats a big boy federal mistake!! I don't worry about that, course I don't worry they'll put carbon dioxide in my oxygen bottles either.


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 21, 2014)

Foamheart said:


> I believe that if the chemical company mislabeled the cure, I would be rich. Chemicals ain't like a class action tire law suit, chemicals now thats a big boy federal mistake!! I don't worry about that, course I don't worry they'll put carbon dioxide in my oxygen bottles either.



I heard there are a lot of companies that bottle oxygen laced with hydrogen.


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## foamheart (Nov 21, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> I heard there are a lot of companies that bottle oxygen laced with hydrogen.


 Might as well, my ground meat from the grocery store comes package with nitrogen.


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## mdboatbum (Nov 21, 2014)

I made sure to tell my wife that the package of pink stuff on the top shelf was curing salt and was poison. Unfortunately, the Himilayan pink salt was on the other top shelf above the stove. She saw me grinding some onto scrambled eggs and thought I was trying to poison her. [emoji]128516[/emoji]


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## kc5tpy (Nov 21, 2014)

Hey MD!  Tell her not to worry.  "I made this meat specially for you my love!"  It has "special sauce" 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## jp61 (Nov 21, 2014)

"John Doe" loves to eat sausage! One day he decides he wants to make his own smoked sausage. He knows nothing of the process so he ends up buying the book Sausage Making - It's So Easy A Caveman Can Do It. While waiting for the book to arrive he searches the internet and finds this secret smoked sausage recipe with instructions on how to make it  He already has all the necessary equipment given to him by his grandfather and all ingredients on hand with the exception of this Cure #1 stuff and casing. Couple of days later his book arrives and while reading he learns how important it is to use Cure #1 when making smoked sausage and why. Seems simple enough and can hardly wait to get started. He drives down to his favorite sausage shop, Butch's Smoked Meats to buy some Cure #1. Butch wasn't there because he forgot to renew his license plate for his Volare and today was his last opportunity to get it done before it expires.



The Holidays are also near and Butch's place is hopping busy, business couldn't be any better.

How may I help you sir, says the young person behind the counter who may or may not be Butch's relative visiting from another country. You guys sell any of that Cure #1 stuff for making smoked sausage asks "John Doe". Yes we do, how much do you need sir? Well, I'm not really sure how much to get, this is my first time making sausage but I think 8 oz should get me started. OK, that sounds good sir let me get that for you, it's in the back. Oh wait, I almost forgot, I also need enough natural casing for 25lbs of pork. Here you go sir, have a nice day and Happy Holidays!

"John Doe" very carefully follows directions outlined in the recipe and ends up making some really nice looking sausage. He's very happy with the results and proud of his accomplishment. Being a nice guy, he decides to share his smoked sausage with family and friends. One little problem...... he purchased and used Cure #2.

Is there a qualified SMF Paul Harvey-like member here, with the rest of the story?


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## kc5tpy (Nov 22, 2014)

John Doe's 87 yr. old mom dies from nitrate poisoning. The place is now called John Doe's Smoked Meats and John and what's left of his family ( the ones with  out birth defects ) now live in the mansion on the hill.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Of course John; and it seem's the rest of us, still can't tell the difference between #1 and #2!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## mdboatbum (Nov 22, 2014)

Can someone please explain to me what would have happened to John Doe if he had in fact used cure #2?  Let's say he did everything right, according to a good recipe for kielbasa. I mean, would it really kill his family? Are there different amounts called for with 2 versus 1? 
I've never used 2 so I really have no idea.


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## kc5tpy (Nov 22, 2014)

The last thing we want to do is frighten anyone away from trying either cure.  We were just having a bit of fun with a make believe scenario.  I can't give you all the science, I am no expert at using cures, still learning myself.  Hopefully one of the members with experience will weigh in here and educate all of us.  *From what little knowledge I have* it's not necessarily the cure that MAY harm you.  So long as you follow the safe amount required for the weight of the meat.  Obviously each cure is safe to eat when used correctly  It's the curing process and the way each cure works that CAN but not necessarily cause an issue. You CAN use too little cure #1 making smoked sausage but so long as you stay within 40-140-4 rule you will be safe to eat it.  It seems to me ( with my limited knowledge ) the issue is whether the cure has had the time to properly react with the meat and to properly complete the curing process.  Well that exhausts my pea brain of knowledge.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## daveomak (Nov 22, 2014)

Without the labels, I can't tell the difference.....   * Keep stuff labeled*....   when in doubt, throw it out....   You even have to be "somewhat" knowledgeable to know that DQ curing salt is Cure #1....  Same with Prague Powder.....      This hobby, curing meats, is not for the addled... 


As far as the manufacturer/packager screwing up the 2.....  I don't think that's possible......   NOW, if it did happen, used in the proper amounts and methods, it shouldn't be a problem...   
Except in bacon....  FDA wants ZERO nitrates in bacon.....   if you cure according to the FDA regs....














9c3ee6fa_Cure2.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Nov 22, 2014


















Cure #1.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Nov 22, 2014


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

I understand pink color of cure has an effect on the final color of the finished product. But, why don't "they" put in a small trace amount of say red dye in the mix, one or the other cure, to eliminate any chance of mix-up? Is it not warranted? Maybe not..... I'm trying to understand.


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## daveomak (Nov 22, 2014)

JP61 said:


> *I understand pink color of cure has an effect on the final color of the finished product.* But, why don't "they" put in a small trace amount of say red dye in the mix, one or the other cure, to eliminate any chance of mix-up? Is it not warranted? Maybe not..... I'm trying to understand.




I'm not sure but I think that is not necessarily true....   The color change in the meat comes from the nitrite interaction with the myoglobin in the meat....   And the meat color change is most predominant when the meat reaches something near 140 ish degrees....   

The red dye, added to the cure, is to foil the "unsuspecting" from using it improperly.....


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> I'm not sure but I think that is not necessarily true.... The color change in the meat comes from the nitrite interaction with the myoglobin in the meat.... And the meat color change is most predominant when the meat reaches something near 140 ish degrees....
> 
> The red dye, added to the cure, is to foil the "unsuspecting" from using it improperly.....


I'm not sure either.... from what I've read it's mainly dyed pink so it won't be confused with salt for example. And yes the color of cured meat does come mostly from chemical interaction but, the pink color of cure does have some effect on the final product or at least it blends in easier than if it was green or blue, etc. ..... that's what I've read anyway.

What I meant with the red dye was this....

Since the pink color of cure has some effect on the final product, why not add/mix a certain percentage of darker red granules mixed with the pink, in either cure #1 or #2. This way a person can differentiate between the two cures just by looking at it. One is solid pink the other is pink with red specks. Just a thought.


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## DanMcG (Nov 22, 2014)

That pic is interesting Dave, I have DQ #2 and its not pink but white.
 I leave my cures in the original packet then ziplock or vac seal them. no way you'd mistake them for salt or sugar.


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## DanMcG (Nov 22, 2014)

Mdboatbum said:


> Can someone please explain to me what would have happened to John Doe if he had in fact used cure #2?  Let's say he did everything right, according to a good recipe for kielbasa. I mean, would it really kill his family? Are there different amounts called for with 2 versus 1?
> I've never used 2 so I really have no idea.



I've been wondering the same thing Md, I don't think it will kill anyone or make them sick. you have the same amount of nitrite in #2 as in #1, or less even. so they will cure just like you used the #1. now you have the issue of the 3-4% of nitrate thats still in the sausage. does it convert to nitrite  and then nitric oxide while cooking?  I'm not sure. Martin or some others would probably know, me, I'm a little rusty.


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

DanMcG said:


> I've been wondering the same thing Md, I don't think it will kill anyone or make them sick. you have the same amount of nitrite in #2 as in #1, or less even. so they will cure just like you used the #1. now you have the issue of the 3-4% of nitrate thats still in the sausage. does it convert to nitrite and then nitric oxide while cooking? I'm not sure. Martin or some others would probably know, me, I'm a little rusty.


If the product is cooked/fried at high temps nitrosamines will form. That's the main reason bacon shouldn't be cured with Cure #2, I think


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## DanMcG (Nov 22, 2014)

JP61 said:


> If the product is cooked/fried at high temps nitrosamines will form. That's the main reason bacon shouldn't be cured with Cure #2, I think :biggrin:



I think the issue with nitosamines only begins around 600°f I cook sausage well below 200°


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## kc5tpy (Nov 22, 2014)

Thanks Dave and Dan for weighing in on this one.  I also noticed Martin having a read.  It seems the answer is that without scientific analysis you can't tell the difference.  SO! Buy from a reputable retailer, AND *meticulously* label ALL your curing products.

It should be said for any members new to curing meat reading this that we were having a bit of fun with a hypothetical situation earlier.  Both Cure #1 and cure #2 are both necessary in certain meat curing processes.  Both are perfectly safe when used properly.  Do your homework and ask as many questions as needed until you feel confident in using either cure.  We have many members ( I'm not included ) who really know their stuff when talking about cures.  Great bunch of folks here who will answer question after question to help you get started.  It ain't rocket science but it does require guidance and confidence.  These folks are happy to help with both.  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

I find it strange that two different products used for different purposes in mind when curing meats, *look identical*. I'm not sure what the consequence would be if any, if they happen to get switched in their use. I know people make mistakes. Many mistakes in the food industry are made on a daily basis, some resulting in suffering or worse. Just check out all the recalls at the USDA.

Seems to me there would be an easy fix to eliminate any mistakes and/or confusion by making one product look different from the other. If it's warranted.... I'm not sure if it is or not.


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## kc5tpy (Nov 22, 2014)

Hello JP.  I'm with you.  Seems easy.  One is pink  and one should be red. SIMPLE!  The sky is blue, grass is usually green and we can't wake up the suppliers to the fact that both look the same.  BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL and METICULOUSLY label seems to be the way forward,  Keep Smokin!

Danny


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

The first time I purchased Cure #1 was from a local mom and pop business. The owner served me that day and I was confident he gave me what I ordered, in that unlabeled ziploc bag. Oh, btw..... I didn't buy the book Sausage Making- It's So Easy A Caveman Can Do It...lol. But, this guy could have been distracted somehow, drunk or who knows what, when filling my order. I could have very easily ended up with Cure #2. There was no way I could have known any better. I did make a bunch of smoked sausage with that cure and gave the majority of it to friends and family.

It was right before Christmas


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

KC5TPY said:


> I also noticed Martin having a read.  It seems the answer is that without scientific analysis you can't tell the difference.


Maybe he's refreshing his memory or thinks I'm an idiot 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  

I vote for #1


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 22, 2014)

How did we get here ...to have items in our pantry that can kill us by tablespoon?

Worst could happen when I was a kid was having a very salty hot chocolate or burning my mouth with my dad's plum brandy...thinking it was mineral water (identical bottle).


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## DanMcG (Nov 22, 2014)

JP I'd have to be really desperate if I had to buy my cure in a unlabeled bag....Please don't take offence but I need to at least see the label of the product they're giving me. If they imported the cure from there home country in Europe it could be 0.06% nitrite.. you never know.
One other thought for what its worth, everyone who uses TenderQuick is adding nitrate along with the nitrite when they make there sausage.


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

DanMcG said:


> JP I'd have to be really desperate if I had to buy my cure in a unlabeled bag....Please don't take offence but I need to at least see the label of the product they're giving me. If they imported the cure from there home country in Europe it could be 0.06% nitrite.. you never know.
> One other thought for what its worth, everyone who uses TenderQuick is adding nitrate along with the nitrite when they make there sausage.


I totally agree!

However, I wasn't desperate, just excited to make my own smoked sausage for the first time. I trusted he knew better than I, since he made and sold smoked sausage for a living. I knew the meat had to be cured with Cure #1 and that it was pink. Remember, I was just starting to learn.


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## jp61 (Nov 22, 2014)

atomicsmoke said:


> How did we get here ...to have items in our pantry that can kill us by tablespoon?
> 
> Worst could happen when I was a kid was having a very salty hot chocolate or burning my mouth with my dad's plum brandy...thinking it was mineral water (identical bottle).


Humans by the billions in need of tasty energy?


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## JckDanls 07 (Nov 22, 2014)

This is a very interesting read...  I too am a beginner sausage maker...  I too keep my cure in it's original  package and then put it in a zip lock bag... I keep it in a closet with all my sausage gear..  that way the wife, or anybody else, can't mistakenly use it....


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## themule69 (Nov 22, 2014)

Then you have to think about the cure that you don't think is a cure, Celery maybe??? An off label cure! I didn't mean to fan the fire 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Happy smoken.

David


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm going to avoid bloviating ad nauseum by simply saying it would be very difficult to seriously endanger yourself or others when using or even somewhat misusing modern cures...it's just not likely to happen....folks just don't ingest several teaspoons or  tablespoons of salty cure at one sitting.
Yes, nitrite and nitrate are toxic...nitrite is more toxic than nitrate.  Putting it in perspective......nitrite has approximately the same LD50 toxicity level as caffeine.....nicotine is about 200X more toxic than either. Consuming any of those at a toxic level is essentially impossible in the way that they're commonly used.
Pure nitrite (or pure caffeine or pure  nicotine) is/are extremely dangerous, but that's not what we're dealing with here.

On the subject of bacon and nitrite/nitrate....under certain situations bacon MAY contain nitrosamines that MAY be carcinogenic.....the key word is "MAY"...there isn't a proven case of it ever happening.....but there's a heck of a lot of hype and irrational fear.

Confusing cure #1 with cure #2...it's important to note that cure #1 doesn't exist because cure #2 is more dangerous...they're simply different products intended for different purposes....using cure#2 in place of cure #1 (at the recommended level) wouldn't be any more dangerous (in terms of the nitrite/nitrate level) than using Morton Tenderquick in the same situation (at the recommended level.)


HTH


~Martin


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks Martin!

It's good to read that there isn't any health issues to be concerned over, if somehow, the two cures (#1 or #2) weren't used for their intended purpose.

I guess that's the reason they're both pink.

Q- What would happen if someone (unknowingly) made a dry cured product with cure #1?

    - Would the product just simply go bad before it's done and end up getting tossed?


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 23, 2014)

Depends on what's being cured.
The presence of nitrate extends the presence of nitrite because the nitrate slowly converts to nitrite....nitrate isn't essential in short term dry-curing and isn't as important when dry curing whole muscles as it is in dry curing sausages.
In certain situations, lack of enough cure could be dangerous (botulinum growth in dry cured sausage, etc.) if the product doesn't dry enough before all the cure is spent.


A couple other points:

As Dan said, not all cure #2 is pink...that which Butcher & Packer sells is one that's white...last I knew.


There are at least 3 different cure #2 formulas here in the USofA.

6.25% nitrite and 1% nitrate. (SausageMaker) 
5.67% nitrite and 3.63% nitrate. (Butcher & Packer) 
6.25% nitrate and 4% nitrate. (Allied Kenco)


HTH

~Martin


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## DanMcG (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks for your input Martin.


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Depends on what's being cured.
> The presence of nitrate extends the presence of nitrite because the nitrate slowly converts to nitrite....nitrate isn't essential in short term dry-curing and isn't as important when dry curing whole muscles as it is in dry curing sausages.
> *In certain situations, lack of enough cure could be dangerous (botulinum growth in dry cured sausage, etc.) if the product doesn't dry enough before all the cure is spent.*
> 
> ...


*This would be the reason why dry cured sausages are made with cure #2 instead of #1, right?*  

Anyhow, to me it just doesn't make much sense to have both cure #1 and #2 look identical, in most cases.


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## diggingdogfarm (Nov 23, 2014)

JP61 said:


> *This would be the reason why dry cured sausages are made with cure #2 instead of #1, right?*



Yes.







~Martin


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To me, that's enough of a reason to question "their" dye coloring scheme.


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

Am I the only one to think, that having both Cure #1 and #2 look identical is STUPID? 

I mean it's bad enough by itself, that there's no way of me knowing the mixes have the correct ratios, I can't even tell one from the other.

I guess I'll just have to remain trusting? I know, I know.... I could make my own.


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

Let me guess.... some of you reading this thread think I'm fear mongering, right?

I'm not trying to.


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## jp61 (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks to those who participated in this conversation!

Keep learning, smoking and enjoying!


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## themule69 (Nov 24, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Let me guess.... some of you reading this thread think I'm fear mongering, right?
> 
> I'm not trying to.


Yes! Which is often a good trait. I am thinking more people get sick by not caring than get sick by doing research.

Happy smoken.

David


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## mike w (Nov 25, 2014)

Is that an intentional pun on that natural planet label for cure #2 or just poor quality control?? =)



DaveOmak said:


> Without the labels, I can't tell the difference.....   * Keep stuff labeled*....   when in doubt, throw it out....   You even have to be "somewhat" knowledgeable to know that DQ curing salt is Cure #1....  Same with Prague Powder.....      This hobby, curing meats, is not for the addled...
> 
> 
> As far as the manufacturer/packager screwing up the 2.....  I don't think that's possible......   NOW, if it did happen, used in the proper amounts and methods, it shouldn't be a problem...
> ...


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