# Bacon curing - validating the 10% uptake assumption



## wade (Jan 28, 2015)

Following a couple of recent threads where the uptake properties of Nitrite by bacon was debated at great length (with a little more vigor at times than I was expecting), it became clear that there were certain assumptions that were being used to calculate the uptake of Nitrite in bacon when immersion curing that had little credible supporting evidence. Whilst there is no reason to doubt the validity of these assumptions there also appears to be little laboratory based evidence to support them either. The assumption that appears to have the least supporting evidence so far, and I hope to validate, is that when the pork is immersed in the concentrated curing brine, 10% of the cure concentration in the brine will be taken up by the meat. 

There was also a big difference in the methodologies of some of the recognised authorities on curing here on the forum - with two of them recommending very different starting concentrations of cure. To try to verify both of these methodologies I am going to compare both methods, as published on here, using laboratory techniques and at the end of the process have all of the samples analysed for residual Nitrite at a government licensed food safety laboratory. I am fully expecting both methods to result in a "safe" end product (one that falls within the governments maximum and minimum limits for Nitrite), however I am expecting them to probably be at either ends of these limits. 

So that I can maximise the value of the testing I have outlined the methodology that I intend to use below. This will give other forum members the opportunity to comment on the process before it begins. No testing will be absolutely perfect and test all possible variables but I am looking to test the major assumptions first - and these may be refined further in future testing.

As the commonly used cuts of pork used for bacon on here are Belly and Loin I intend to test both cuts. To try and reduce animal variation, if possible, I will try to use cuts of meat from the same pig for all of the testing. I will be looking for a sample size of 1Kg (2.2 Lbs) each as, although not big, is a size that may well be commonly cured by our members. These tests will all be performed skin off.

The two brines I intend to use are:

1 US gallon = 3.78 litres

1 Cup of sugar = 240 g

1 Cup of salt = 273 g

1 Tbs Cure#1 = 17 g

Cure#1 = 6.25% Nitrite and 93.75% Salt

Brine # 1 - Thread brine from "Prague Powder #1"   Per 3.5 US GallonPer 5 LitresCure #114 oz (397 g)150.04 gBrown Sugar2-5/8 cups (630 g)238.1 gSalt3/4 Cup (204 g)77.1 g
This has a starting Nitrite concentration of 9.38 g per 5 litres = 1,875 mg per litre

Brine # 2 - Pops Lo-Salt Brine   Per US GallonPer 5 litresCure #11 Tbs (17 g)22.49 gBrown Sugar1/2 Cup (120 g)158.7 gWhite Sugar1/2 Cup (120 g)158.7 gSalt1/2 Cup (136.5 g)180.6 g 
This has a starting Nitrite concentration of 1.41 g per 5 litres = 281 mg per litre

In the various threads on the forum there is also variation in the recommended time that the meat remains in the brine, so I will test each of he cuts of meat in each brines for both 7 and 14 days. Including the control samples this will result in 12 samples being tested:

Sample 1    Uncured sample from Belly Pork to act as a control
Sample 2    Uncured sample from Pork loin to act as a control
     
Sample 3    Belly pork from Brine #1 after 7 days
Sample 4    Pork loin from Brine #1 after 7 days
     
Sample 5    Belly pork from Brine #1 after 14 days
Sample 6    Pork loin from Brine #1 after 14 days
     
Sample 7    Belly pork from Brine #2 after 7 days
Sample 8    Pork loin from Brine #2 after 7 days
     
Sample 9    Belly pork from Brine #2 after 14 days
Sample 10   Pork loin from Brine #2 after 14 days
     
Sample 11   Sample of Brine #1 before pork added
Sample 12   Sample of Brine #2 before pork added

I may also test a sample of meat that has been previously frozen to see if that has any effect on cure uptake.

At the beginning, a control sample of each cut of pork will be taken to measure initial Nitrite levels (if any). These will be vac packed and frozen.

Each sample of meat will be weighed before being placed separately in individual containers of brine.

After the allotted time in the brines the samples will be removed, patted dry and weighed.

The sample will then be left in the fridge for 24 hours to equilibrate, patted dry and weighed again before a central cross section sample is cut.

Each sample will then be vac packed and frozen.

At the end of the trial the frozen samples will be delivered by hand to the government licensed laboratory for testing.

The sample preparation and storage methodology above has been pre-approved by the laboratory.

The lab turn around for the testing is 10 working days (2 weeks) and as soon as I receive the results I will publish them in full.

If you have and suggestions or comments on the methodology then please let me know over the next few days before I begin the trial.

This should be fun to do and will hopefully provide the lacking evidence to support, or otherwise, the methods that are being routinely recommended on the forum.

Cheers

Wade

Post updated to reflect the increased salt from Pops brine as requested.

Post updated to use Pops Lo-Salt curing brine as requested


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## pc farmer (Jan 28, 2015)




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## atomicsmoke (Jan 28, 2015)

That's a sound DOE (design of experiment) Wade.

The only suggestions I have:

- use of weight/weight concentration (instead of wt/vol) and add the weight of the other ingredients to the brine total mass.
- for brine#2 the weight of the meat is used in the handbook quoted everywhere to estimate the nitrite level in meat: 
Curex0.0625/(meat+brine)

Good luck and thank you for your time and $.


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## diggingdogfarm (Jan 28, 2015)

Wade said:


> ...will hopefully provide the lacking evidence...




FWIW,

Similar experiments have previously been completed and papers published.....

*Mathematical modeling of the uptake of curing salts in pork meat*


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## wade (Jan 28, 2015)

I love science. This is a labour of love. Sad I know, but I don't apologise 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Using Mg/Litre is where I am trying not to be controversial. Some on here say that you have to take into account the weight of all of the ingredients whereas others say only the weight of the Nitrite. So as to try to remain impartial I have just shown the brine concentrations in mg/Litre of Nitrite. The only thing that this will change depending on your viewpoint is the calculated initial Ppm. As in this experiment I am not going to calculate anything, I am just using the ingredients that others have recommended and am using the methodologies that have been described. In the end I will simply measure what is in the final bacon. That way we can apply whatever calculations we want and see which one most closely models what actually happens.


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## wade (Jan 28, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> FWIW,
> 
> Similar experiments have previously been completed and papers published.....
> 
> *Mathematical modeling of the uptake of curing salts in pork meat*


 That is great but I don't recall it being mentioned during the previous threads when requested. Do you have a summary of the conclusions? If not I will have to buy it.

Cheers

Wade


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## diggingdogfarm (Jan 28, 2015)

It wasn't requested in the previous discussions.
It has nothing directly to do with the science regulators used to determine nitrite/nitrate limits and define curing practices.
I have the paper somewhere, I'm just not sure where...it's likely in storage.


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## atomicsmoke (Jan 28, 2015)

Wade said:


> I love science. This is a labour of love. Sad I know, but I don't apologise :biggrin:
> 
> Using Mg/Litre is where I am trying not to be controversial. Some on here say that you have to take into account the weight of all of the ingredients whereas others say only the weight of the Nitrite. So as to try to remain impartial I have just shown the brine concentrations in mg/Litre of Nitrite. The only thing that this will change depending on your viewpoint is the calculated initial Ppm. As in this experiment I am not going to calculate anything, I am just using the ingredients that others have recommended and am using the methodologies that have been described. In the end I will simply measure what is in the final bacon. That way we can apply whatever calculations we want and see which one most closely models what actually happens.


Fair enough.


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## pops6927 (Jan 28, 2015)

Please use my two ingredient lists correctly, as previously published in the Article http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/pops6927s-curing-brines-regular-and-lo-salt

What you are using is not correct.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 29, 2015)

This should be interesting. Thank You for going through the work and expense to contribute to keeping or members safe when it comes to Curing Meat...JJ


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

Pops6927 said:


> Please use my two ingredient lists correctly, as previously published in the Article http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/pops6927s-curing-brines-regular-and-lo-salt
> 
> What you are using is not correct.


Hi Pops. What I was using was from your post http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/110799/pops6927s-wet-curing-brine. 

_    For every 1 gallon of water, add:
   *1/3 - 1 cup sea salt (depending if you're on a lo-salt diet)*
   1 cup granulated sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji]
   1 cup brown sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] brown sugar mix
   1 tbsp cure no. 1 pink salt_

I have now updated the salt quantity above to reflect your other post as requested.

_    1 gallon of clean water
   *1 cup plain, regular non-iodized table salt*
   1 cup sugar or sucrolose
   1 cup brown sugar or sucrolose equiv.
   1 tablespoon of Cure#1_


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## bear55 (Jan 29, 2015)

This is interesting.  Will you assume that every piece of meat cured in the future will follow the results of this test?  I wonder if that will be a valid assumption?


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## daveomak (Jan 29, 2015)

Wade, morning.....   I don't know if this is pertinent..   from the FSIS handbook 1995, page 28.....

From the wording,  "Since the skin retains practically no cure solution or cure agent" ..  one would have to assume, (stupid, I know), some testing had to be done, to make that statement...

 Pumped, Massaged, Immersion Cured, or Dry Cured Bacon (rind-on):  The maximum limit for ingoing nitrite and sodium ascorbate or sodium erythorbate must be adjusted if bacon is prepared from pork bellies with attached skin (rind-on).  A pork belly's weight is comprised of approximately 10 percent skin.  Since the skin retains practically no cure solution or cure agent, the maximum ingoing nitrite and sodium ascorbate or erythorbate limits must be reduced by 10 percent.  For example, the maximum ingoing limit for nitrite and sodium ascorbate or erythorbate for pumped pork bellies with attached skin would be 108 ppm [120 ppm ! 12 ppm (120 × .10)] and 495 ppm [550 ppm ! 55 ppm (550 × .10)], respectively.


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## pops6927 (Jan 29, 2015)

Wade said:


> Hi Pops. What I was using was from your post http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/110799/pops6927s-wet-curing-brine.
> 
> _    For every 1 gallon of water, add:
> *1/3 - 1 cup sea salt (depending if you're on a lo-salt diet)*
> ...


I would prefer you use the lo-salt formula or better yet, both, as it is part of YAWYE (You Are What You Eat).  The post of Pop wet curing brine is on 08/30/11.  On 09/07/11 I had a massive 3rd of 5 strokes, almost killing me.  The second was in Oct. 2014, but reflecting the change from my 5 strokes and still keeping in YAWYE form.  Thank you.


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade, morning.....   I don't know if this is pertinent..   from the FSIS handbook 1995, page 28.....
> 
> From the wording,  "Since the skin retains practically no cure solution or cure agent" ..  one would have to assume, (stupid, I know), some testing had to be done, to make that statement...
> 
> Pumped, Massaged, Immersion Cured, or Dry Cured Bacon (rind-on):  The maximum limit for ingoing nitrite and sodium ascorbate or sodium erythorbate must be adjusted if bacon is prepared from pork bellies with attached skin (rind-on).  A pork belly's weight is comprised of approximately 10 percent skin.  Since the skin retains practically no cure solution or cure agent, the maximum ingoing nitrite and sodium ascorbate or erythorbate limits must be reduced by 10 percent.  For example, the maximum ingoing limit for nitrite and sodium ascorbate or erythorbate for pumped pork bellies with attached skin would be 108 ppm [120 ppm ! 12 ppm (120 × .10)] and 495 ppm [550 ppm ! 55 ppm (550 × .10)], respectively.


Hi Dave. Yes I think this is very relevant, however to keep the initial number of samples manageable I was planning on all off these samples being skin off. Initial plans for a phase 2 (getting ahead of myself already!) would be to take one of the cure environments and then test the effect of skin on and off.

The other test I think need doing is the effect of brine quantity in relationship to the volume of the meat being cured. The size and shape of the curing container will significantly effect the volume of brine needed to cover it. Would there be any difference in uptake if the brine quantity was equal to the meat volume, twice the meat volume, 10x the meat volume etc. ?


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

Pops6927 said:


> I would prefer you use the lo-salt formula or better yet, both, as it is part of YAWYE (You Are What You Eat).  The post of Pop wet curing brine is on 08/30/11.  On 09/07/11 I had a massive 3rd of 5 strokes, almost killing me.  The second was in Oct. 2014, but reflecting the change from my 5 strokes and still keeping in YAWYE form.  Thank you.


Hi Pops - If you would prefer that I use the lo-salt formula then I will do that. I try to keep things as low salt as possible these days for health reasons too.

In line with what I replied to Dave, maybe in the next phase I could test the higher salt brine and we could compare the difference.


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade, morning.....   I don't know if this is pertinent..   from the FSIS handbook 1995, page 28.....
> 
> From the wording,  "Since the skin retains practically no cure solution or cure agent" ..  one would have to assume, (stupid, I know), some testing had to be done, to make that statement...


Yes there is an assumption there, however incorrect assumptions can potentially lead to costly mistakes. I have had a look at the handbook and they do not seem to offer any reference source for this statement. As it is in an official government publication I don't assume for one moment that this isn't totally accurate - but it is one that is kind of made off-hand and it would have been great to have a source reference too. I am certain that there has been LOTS of research done in this area over the years - the problem is really finding it anf identifying the actual facts from the colllective assumptions. This does not affect the question of the 10% cure uptake by the meat though.


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)




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## inkjunkie (Jan 29, 2015)

Pops6927 said:


> Please use my two ingredient lists correctly, as previously published in the Article http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/pops6927s-curing-brines-regular-and-lo-salt
> 
> What you are using is not correct.


Would it be possible to correct the incorrect thread? Sadly I didn't see the "improved" version and used the version with sea salt in it.....


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## pops6927 (Jan 29, 2015)

I still do not understand the intent of your experiment.  Are you looking at the uptake in weight from soaking in the brine, or from injecting 10% pump into the meat?


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

Pops6927 said:


> I still do not understand the intent of your experiment.  Are you looking at the uptake in weight from soaking in the brine, or from injecting 10% pump into the meat?


I am primarily looking at the amount of Nitrite uptake during immersion curing using some of the more popular curing methods on here. Also to see how accurate the calculations are that are regularly cited on here for calculating the residual Nitrite at the end of the cure.  

Whilst I am looking at this I can also check for any weight increase in the meat as a result of the immersion - as one of the ways that was described on here for telling when the cure was complete was when the meat had increased in weight by 10%.

It is really a controlled validation exercise for some the different curing methods used on here so that people can confidently use them knowing (within reason) what the residual Nitrite is likely to be.

Although I have not included it in the methodology above, I will also be including a dry cure sample of pork loin to validate my own preferred method of curing. There is nothing quite as satisfying as having the quantitative evidence to confirm that what you are expecting is happening is what is actually happening.


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## daveomak (Jan 29, 2015)

Wade said:


> Hi Dave. Yes I think this is very relevant, however to keep the initial number of samples manageable I was planning on all off these samples being skin off. Initial plans for a phase 2 (getting ahead of myself already!) would be to take one of the cure environments and then test the effect of skin on and off.
> 
> The other test I think need doing is the effect of brine quantity in relationship to the volume of the meat being cured. The size and shape of the curing container will significantly effect the volume of brine needed to cover it. Would there be any difference in uptake if the brine quantity was equal to the meat volume, twice the meat volume, 10x the meat volume etc. ?


Martin mentioned about 2-3 years ago, that the brine/cure volume should be as minimal as possible so the brine/cure mix was as strong as possible.... 

If I remember correctly, a 1500 Ppm nitrite solution penetrates more readily due to the equilibrium thing happening...  faster than say 400 Ppm...     Martin can probably expand on that....   Made perfect sense to me so that's my target...  strong and small amount of brining liquid..

I believe Martin long before I believe most, if not all, of the "blog experts"....


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## daveomak (Jan 29, 2015)

Wade said:


> Whilst I am looking at this I can also check for any weight increase in the meat as a result of the immersion - as one of the ways that was described on here* for telling when the cure was complete was when the meat had increased in weight by 10%.*


That's BS......   Someone was guessing....

The size of the molecules.... the shape of the molecules....   their polarity.... and their density....    etc.   all determine the "speed" at which equilibrium takes place...   the same can be seen in an expensive drink at the bar....   different separations in a drink from different booze...  that's why fresh water floats on top of salt water....  cold water "sinks" and warm water "floats"... 

Some molecules move fast..... some move slow......    Like the statement in overhauling bellies in a brine solution....   the salt has tendency to "sink" toward the bottom of the vat, while the sodium nitrite "tends" to float toward the top... and thus, overhauling should be done ...

The brine has to work it's way through a network of muscle tissue...  The tissue acts as a filter....   molecular sieve so to speak...


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## diggingdogfarm (Jan 29, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Dave. Yes I think this is very relevant, however to keep the initial number of samples manageable I was planning on all off these samples being skin off. Initial plans for a phase 2 (getting ahead of myself already!) would be to take one of the cure environments and then test the effect of skin on and off.
> ...



That applies only to the small-batch equilibrium brine method that I've described elsewhere on the forum.

Now, about some other comments in this thread, I'm very concerned with some of the confusion that persists, without a doubt it's going to lead to problems in the future.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of closely studying applicable parts of the Code of Federal Regulations, Food Standards and Labeling
Policy Book, Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, etc.


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## wade (Jan 29, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> That applies only to the small-batch equilibrium brine method that I've described elsewhere on the forum.
> 
> Now, about some other comments in this thread, I'm very concerned with some of the confusion that persists, without a doubt it's going to lead to problems in the future.
> I can't emphasize enough the importance of closely studying applicable parts of the Code of Federal Regulations, Food Standards and Labeling
> Policy Book, Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, etc.


I agree Martin that it is important to understand these. Which areas of confusion and problems do you see arising so that we can try to address them in advance.


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 29, 2015)

" the salt has tendency to "sink" toward the bottom of the vat, while the sodium nitrite "tends" to float toward the top... and thus, overhauling should be done ... "

Dave, can you provide some more detail and a link where I can get more info on this? College Chemistry was a LONG time ago but the whole bases of Diffusion is that Salt will move from an area of high concentration to one that is lower or non-existent to reach equilibrium. This rate of diffusion ( Flux ) in water will vary by the concentration, high concentration can result in ion collisions slowing the process slightly, low concentration ions move in virtually a straight line to the area of lowest concentration thus diffuse at a faster rate. Lastly heating the solution increases the speed of diffusion. Once eguilibrium is reached we have by definition no net flux or no steady movement between concentrations. However since we mix brines these processes are irrelevant. The ions of dissolved Sodium Nitrite will act in a similar manner. While flux does not have to be a steady zero once equilibrium is reached, the molecules can move within the water if for any reason the concentration changes, moving into the meat , however the Net Flux must be zero, any changes will equalize to maintain the same overall concentration, equilibrium is maintained. Is this incorrect? Thanks...JJ

http://michaeldmann.net/mann1.html


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## daveomak (Jan 29, 2015)

Wade, I found the brine ratio to meat thing......
[h3]How Much Brine[/h3]
You have to cover the meats and a lot of brine will be wasted if you cure only 1 chicken in a 55 gallon drum. A basic rule of thumb dictates that the amount of brine should come to about 40-50% in relation to the weight of the meat. For 1.0 lb of meat use 0.4-0.5 lb of brine. Try to use a container whose size and shape will accommodate the meat piece snugly in order to use as little brine as possible.

Many professionals use the following weight ratio: from 30% to 40% of water to 100% of meat. That means that for 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of meat we add 0.4 liters (400 mg) of water. Then you choose the strength of the brine and keep on adding salt checking the reading with a salinometer. Let’s say you want to cure two pork butts that weigh 10 pounds in total. A typical figure is to use 40% of water in relation to the weight of meat.

JJ, I'm looking.....  been at it for some time....    I do know it was related to home brine curing techniques as "Commercial" techniques involve stitch pumping and it is not necessary to "overhaul" when stitch pumping is used....  only when 45 days type brining is happening.....


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 29, 2015)

Dave, Thanks for taking the time to research this. I see the point of overhauling as meat laying on meat does not have good contact with the brine and moving things around will expose all surfaces equally. I just never heard of dissolved Salt settling to the bottom of the container. If this was true then there would be no need for multi-billion dollar Desalination Facilities as it would be a lot cheaper to have large tanks filled with Seawater and just wait till the salt settles to the bottom and suction off the salt free surface water. A Centrifuge would work even faster and still be cheaper...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






...JJ


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## daveomak (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm tired of looking....  so remember this because in 6 months I will run across it, maybe, and I will post it......


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## wade (Jan 30, 2015)

All meat now bought - loin and belly from the same animal - samples cut into ~1Kg joints.
Lab is now expecting the samples in a couple of weeks,
I will have to purchase some additional containers for the cure tomorrow that will allow all of containers to fit in the fridge
I have made 3 additions to the testing...

500g of bacon skin to test the understanding that skin absorbs little or no Nitrite cure. I will leave these in the cure for the 14 days as this is likely to be the "worst case scenario"
Pork loin sample using my normal dry cure method for 7 days
Pork loin sample using my normal dry cure method for 14 days


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## chef jimmyj (Jan 30, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> I'm tired of looking....  so remember this because in 6 months I will run across it, maybe, and I will post it......


No problem. Please send a PM when you post the info. Thanks...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm (Jan 30, 2015)

Wade said:


> Which areas of confusion and problems do you see arising so that we can try to address them in advance.



Several things.
I pointed some of them out in previous threads.
I'm not going to do that again because I have no desire to argue and apparently I'm not a very good teacher.

What I will say is, much of what's being questioned is totally meaningless unless it's applied in the context in which it's intended.

I am on your side...really, I am!


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## wade (Feb 2, 2015)

We are now under way

Meat in ~1Kg Joints - 6 x Loin joints and 6 x Belly cuts













Pork in 1Kg cuts.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015






20 litres of each brine made













Brine 1.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015


















Pops Brine Brine 2.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015






Sample of each brine vac packed and now frozen - ready for lab testing













Cure Samples.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015






Each pork cut is in 5 Litres of brine which in  these containers was "just enough to cover it".













Loin in Brine 1.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015


















Belly in Brine 1.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015






Some of the containers in the fridge as it was being loaded.













Cure in Fridge.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 2, 2015






Two additional samples also in the brines. These are just the skin. These will be left in for the full 14 days to see how much of the cure is taken up.

Nothing to do now for the next 7 days except poke them occasionally... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Below are the lab notes so far.

BrineMeatDaysBrine
VolumeIn
DateIn
WeightOut
DateOut
WeightSample#Sample
weight (g)NoneLoin0022/02/2015176 g    1176 gNoneBelly0022/02/2015169 g    2169 g                    1Loin75 Litres22/02/2015977 g    3  1Loin145 Litres22/02/20151096 g    4  1Belly75 Litres22/02/20151061 g    5  1Belly145 Litres22/02/2015997 g    6  2Loin75 Litres22/02/2015896 g    7  2Loin145 Litres22/02/2015930 g    8  2Belly75 Litres22/02/20151086 g    9  2Belly145 Litres22/02/20151026 g    10                      DryLoin10          11  DryBelly10          12                      1Brine 1    22/02/2015      13  2Brine 2    22/02/2015      14                      1Skin141 Litrre22/02/2015      15  2Skin141 Litre22/02/2015      16


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## pops6927 (Feb 2, 2015)

Using nothing to weigh it down to keep it immersed?


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## wade (Feb 3, 2015)

Pops6927 said:


> Using nothing to weigh it down to keep it immersed?


What would you suggest Pops? I could try a small plate or maybe fabricate something that fits in the lid.


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## wade (Feb 3, 2015)

Sorted 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





. The individual portion ceramic quiche dishes work perfectly rested on top of the meat. I will also turn the meat daily in the brine.


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## pops6927 (Feb 3, 2015)

I use half-full ziploc bags of water (fill it half full and squeeze most the air out, very simple, effective and sanitary).


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## DanMcG (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks for taking the time to run this experiment Wade, It will be interesting to see what the results yield.


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## wade (Feb 5, 2015)

Whilst testing the immersion brine I am also lab testing my usual dry cure method.

Pork Loin - 1,008g - 3.2g Cure#1, 22g Salt, 22g Sugar = 198 Ppm Nitrite

Belly Pork - 888g - 2.8g Cure#1, 19.4g salt, 19.5g Sugar = 197 Ppm Nitrite

Cure time 10 days













Dry cure.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 5, 2015


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## wade (Feb 9, 2015)

First batches are now out after 7 days in the brine.













Cloudy brine after 7 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 9, 2015






The brines all look slightly murky however it still looked fresh and had no obvious smell

Before and after...













Loin in Brine 1.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 9, 2015


















Brine 1 Loin 7 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 9, 2015






The brine used for the belly stayed noticably clearer than the brine with the loin. Below is the belly brine after 7 days













Brine 2 Belly 7 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 9, 2015






The joints were rinsed and patted dry before weighing. They were then labelled and put on wire racks ready to equalise in the fridge. I will let them rest for 5 days before slicing and sampling.













Resting after 7 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 9, 2015






Samples of each of the belly brines were also taken to be analysed - these were vac packed and frozen

With each brine the weight increases were similar however they varied significantly between meat cuts. Both loins showed an increase in weight of ~7% whereas the bellys increased between 11.5% and 13.75%

BrineMeatDaysIn
DateIn
Weight gOut
DateOut
Weight g%
Increase1Loin702/02/201597709/02/201510507.471Belly702/02/2015106109/02/2015118611.782Loin702/02/201589609/02/20159597.032Belly702/02/2015108609/02/2015123513.72
Next update in 7 days.


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## daveomak (Feb 9, 2015)

Looks like the 10% uptake rule doesn't apply...


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 9, 2015)

I am interested to see if the Loins will be closer to 10% after 14 days...JJ


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## daveomak (Feb 9, 2015)

Well, I finally ran into it, while looking up a different question.....    I knew I saw it somewhere....   

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/methods

Overhauling
•Overhauling means periodic re-arrangement of meat pieces that are inside of a curing container. It is done for the following reasons:
•There will be less curing in areas where meats touch each other. Under cured meat areas may have different shade of pink color.
•The curing solution will have sections of different density-salt will sink to the bottom, nitrate will swim up to the top
•When meats are placed on top of each other the top layers supply pressure to the bottom section and the meat juices will leak out into the brine. That is why meats should not be stacked higher than 3 feet.

The strength of the solution will change in time, salt might settle on the bottom, nitrites might be on top, some meat juices will enter the brine, meat pieces may touch each other etc. To allow all meats to cure evenly, the solution should be remixed and agitated. A rule of thumb is to overhaul the meat every seventh day for three weeks. A smaller piece that will be cured for 10 days only, should be overhauled after 5 days. The easiest way is to use two separate containers and switch the meats from one container to the other. The pieces that were on top are now on the bottom and vice verse. Then the brine can be stirred and poured over meat pieces in a new container. If only one container is used the meat should be removed, the brine stirred, and the meat reinserted in a different order.

+++++++++++++++++




DaveOmak said:


> That's BS......   Someone was guessing....
> 
> The size of the molecules.... the shape of the molecules....   their polarity.... and their density....    etc.   all determine the "speed" at which equilibrium takes place...   the same can be seen in an expensive drink at the bar....   different separations in a drink from different booze...  that's why fresh water floats on top of salt water....  cold water "sinks" and warm water "floats"...
> 
> ...



++++++++++++++++++++++++



Chef JimmyJ said:


> " [COLOR=181818[B]]the salt has tendency to "sink" toward the bottom of the vat, while the sodium nitrite "tends" to float toward the top... and thus, overhauling should be done ... "[/COLOR]
> 
> Dave, can you provide some more detail and a link where I can get more info on this?[/B] College Chemistry was a LONG time ago but the whole bases of Diffusion is that Salt will move from an area of high concentration to one that is lower or non-existent to reach equilibrium. This rate of diffusion ( Flux ) in water will vary by the concentration, high concentration can result in ion collisions slowing the process slightly, low concentration ions move in virtually a straight line to the area of lowest concentration thus diffuse at a faster rate. Lastly heating the solution increases the speed of diffusion. Once eguilibrium is reached we have by definition no net flux or no steady movement between concentrations. However since we mix brines these processes are irrelevant. The ions of dissolved Sodium Nitrite will act in a similar manner. While flux does not have to be a steady zero once equilibrium is reached, the molecules can move within the water if for any reason the concentration changes, moving into the meat , however the Net Flux must be zero, any changes will equalize to maintain the same overall concentration, equilibrium is maintained. Is this incorrect? Thanks...JJ
> 
> ...


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## bladebuilder (Feb 9, 2015)

Wow! Thanks for doing this Wade. I'm in for the read.

Dave and Martin, thank you for adding your knowledge.


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## pops6927 (Feb 10, 2015)

Overhauling
•Overhauling means periodic re-arrangement of meat pieces that are inside of a curing container. It is done for the following reasons:
•There will be less curing in areas where meats touch each other. Under cured meat areas may have different shade of pink color.
•The curing solution will have sections of different density-salt will sink to the bottom, nitrate will swim up to the top
•When meats are placed on top of each other the top layers supply pressure to the bottom section and the meat juices will leak out into the brine. That is why meats should not be stacked higher than 3 feet.

The strength of the solution will change in time, salt might settle on the bottom, nitrites might be on top, some meat juices will enter the brine, meat pieces may touch each other etc. To allow all meats to cure evenly, the solution should be remixed and agitated. A rule of thumb is to overhaul the meat every seventh day for three weeks. A smaller piece that will be cured for 10 days only, should be overhauled after 5 days. The easiest way is to use two separate containers and switch the meats from one container to the other. The pieces that were on top are now on the bottom and vice verse. Then the brine can be stirred and poured over meat pieces in a new container. If only one container is used the meat should be removed, the brine stirred, and the meat reinserted in a different order.
 

In my dad's store, that would be impossible to accomplish.  We stacked bellies (albeitly alternating directions, but still one on top of another) in a 55 gal. poly drums 5' tall, filled with brine, then put in the cooler to soak, weighing down with 5 gal. water bags, for 21-30 days in a curing brine cooler with 60 other barrels, all on dollies to easily move as necessary, then pulled into roll trucks and taken into the smokehouse room, placing bacon hooks in them and smoking 8-10 hours.  Usually filled one smokehouse with bellies and the other with either hams or custom.


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 10, 2015)

Thanks Dave. I had no doubt you read that info. I was just curious as to whether it was written by a Scientist with a PhD in Chemistry or a Chemical Engineer or a Curing Article. While I can understand Overhauling, for most of the reasons stated, that article is the only time I have seen that dissolved salts can settle or float in water. Salts are a molecule made of the atoms of a Metal and a Non-metal held together by an Ionic Bond, they share Electrons, a pretty weak force.  Chemically what that article says can't happen since both Sodium Chloride and Sodium Nitrite, Polar Solutes, dissolve into their separate positively charged Sodium Ions ( Na+) and negatively charges Chloride Ion (Cl-) and Nitrite Ion (NO2-) in Water, a Polar Solvent. In a Brine the solution is nowhere near Saturation because there is a lot more water than either the amount of NaCl or NaNO2.  In our Brine solution there is a Solute-Solvent Interaction. In this case all the Solute (NaCl and NaNO2) is torn apart into their respective Ions by the strong polarity of the water. These Ions become immediately surrounded by water molecules in the form of a Primary Hydration Shell. The negatively charged Oxygen portion of the water molecules surround the Na+ ions (Cations) and positively charged Hydrogen portion of water surrounds the Cl- ions (Anions). A similar interaction happens with NaNO2. This is not to say that the ions are " Locked into place ", they can move about but the attraction of all that water is much stronger than the attraction of the Cations to the Anions of the original chemical molecule. Now add the meat. A portion of all these ions will Diffuse into the meat, this leaves even less ions saturating the Water. With so much water holding on to so FEW ions, how can they settle or " swim up to the top " ? Sorry, I just don't see how this can happen...
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






...JJ

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00297.htm

http://www.kentchemistry.com/links/bonding/LikeDissolveslike.htm


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## tigerregis (Feb 10, 2015)

Brilliant. I always like it when science wins out. Rare these days of conspiracy theories.Thanks chef


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## DanMcG (Feb 10, 2015)

Wade said:


> With each brine the weight increases were similar however they varied significantly between meat cuts. Both loins showed an increase in weight of ~7% whereas the bellys increased between 11.5% and 13.75%



Interesting results Wade, I would have guessed the loin would have picked up more weight then the belly. Any thoughts on the difference?


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## daveomak (Feb 10, 2015)

I think the layers of fat have an effect on water adsorption...  I think each meat muscle group, will adsorb brine at different rates...


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## wade (Feb 10, 2015)

Hi Dave - Thanks for continuing to search - I know the frustration when you know you have seen something but just can't put your finger on it again.

Having looked at the article though I think maybe it was a bit of a general off-the-cuff statement rather than a scientific fact. From my days back when I used to work in the medical research labs, if I recall correctly, once a salt (or salts) were dissolved in liquid water and thoroughly mixed, they would then remain in homogeneous solution if under the same conditions. You maybe could get concentration gradients if there was undissolved salt crystals at the bottom of the container however these brines are really quite weak salt solutions (in the grand scheme of things) and so  the salt should all remain in solution.

One thing that may possibly (?) effect the salt concentration could be that in a fairly well loaded brining container (where there was more fluid space at the bottom of the container than at the top round the meat),*  IF*  the meat at the top was actively absorbing the cure then may make the solution around it slightly weaker. If so then without periodically mixing it could take time for the more concentrated salts at the bottom to diffuse to the top. This is pure speculation on my part though and in practice I would expect any gradient in the container to be minimal.

I think for the reasons that JJ has mentioned above, the comment regarding the Nitrate/Nitrite floating to the top and the salt sinking to the bottom is incorrect. I now run the IT in a school and so I passed this by our Head of Chemistry (who has a chemical engineering PhD) and he confirmed that this was not a property of solutions that he recognised. Having said that though, he says he does recommend students to shake solutions that have been standing for a while before using them - but that is really to ensure that none of the dissolved salts have crystallised out.


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## wade (Feb 10, 2015)

DanMcG said:


> Interesting results Wade, I would have guessed the loin would have picked up more weight then the belly. Any thoughts on the difference?


I think that maybe it is an effect caused by the surface area of the meat that is exposed to the brine. The belly joint is thin and flat and has many ridges and troughs and so has a significantly greater surface area to absorb the brine compared to its volume than the loin. My gut feeling though (no pun intended) is that given time both will probably end up being able to absorb similar amounts of brine for any given amount of muscle - but as the loin has proportionally more muscle and less fat than the belly it may _eventually_ even be able to absorb more brine weight-for-weight.

It will be interesting to see what actually happens after the 14 days. If the belly eventually reaches saturation then maybe the loin will get a chance to catch up.


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## daveomak (Feb 10, 2015)

I find the statement below to be of some interest....  I don't discount the possibility of the brine/cure changing concentration, and I am convinced, overhauling to maintain a homogenous solution should be observed....  Whether the summation is correct or not, is not the point...  Common sense plays some role in achieving the most uniform results possible...    
To each his own... 


_The strength of the solution will change in time, salt *might *settle on the bottom, nitrites *might *be on top, some meat juices *will enter *the brine, meat pieces may touch each other etc. To allow all meats to cure evenly, the solution should be remixed and agitated_


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## wade (Feb 10, 2015)

Regardless of the chemistry I gentle agitate the meat in the brines daily to ensure that they remain well mixed. I also turn my dry cure packs daily.


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## wade (Feb 14, 2015)

After 5 days if resting in the fridge the 7 day cure batches were ready for slicing.

Before slicing each batch was again weighed to see if there was any weight loss as the meat drained during the rest period. There was a very slight weight loss in all if the samples however this was only an average of 0.4% for the Loin and 1.2% for the belly.

Each bactch was sliced individually with the test samples taken straight from the slicer. Each sample for testing were slices taken from the centre of the joint. The slicer was stripped and washed down between batches being sliced to avoid any cross contamination.













batch 3 5 7 9 after resting.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 14, 2015






The picture above shows the end of each joint in front and the slices behind. The vac-packed test samples standing at the back just before freezing

The two joints on the left are Brine #1 (Loin and Belly) and on the the right are Brine #2 (Loin and Belly).

Notice with both brines how much darker red the belly is than the loin.

Next update on Monday when the 14 day batches come out of the brine.


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## wade (Feb 15, 2015)

Sorry I lied about the next update. It is in fact today.

The Dry Cure joints came out of the vac pack today after 10 days.













DryCure before resting.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 15, 2015






After rinsing and patting dry they were weighed. The Loin was exactly the same weight as it was went into the the cure. The Belly had actually increased in weight by 1.4% (13g).

The dry cure loin joint looked to be a much deeper red than either of the brined loin joints. This may only be surface colour though. We will see inside once it has rested for 5 days.


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## daveomak (Feb 15, 2015)

I think vac-packing may have squeezed the meat so uptake was not possible...  

In a rigid vac-tub, applying vacuum would open the pores...  subsequent vac, no vac, vac....   would pump the meat and force the brine in....  

Todd Johnson did a similar study using beef jerky in his "Vac Tumblers" he sells...


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## wade (Feb 15, 2015)

This being the Dry cure I would not necessarily expect to see any increase in the weight of the meat. The maximum additional weight it could possibly gain would be the total weight of the dry cure itself. These was some brine formed around both joints so maybe the loss of water was pretty much balanced by the uptake of salts. We will be able to tell when we cut it and see how much was taken up once we get the lab tests back.


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## daveomak (Feb 15, 2015)

My error....  I'm really stupid at times...   I assumed...(you know the definition). because you were "weighing", it was in a brine solution....   stupid, stupid and really stupid of me.....

Thanks Wade.....


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## DanMcG (Feb 15, 2015)

Hey Dave, we're all are stupid at times, you ain't so special :biggrin:


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## daveomak (Feb 15, 2015)

DanMcG said:


> Hey Dave, we're all are stupid at times, you ain't so special :biggrin:




LOL...... Thanks much......   :biggrin:


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

The final batches are now out after 14 days in the brine













Cloudy brine after 14 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 16, 2015






All of the brines are looking decidedly murky with a distinct sediment on the bottom of each container. The smell was slightly meaty but was not unpleasant













Brine 1 Loin 14 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 16, 2015


















Brine 1 Belly 14 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 16, 2015






There were distinct threads in the brine and as the brine was poured away there was a thick slime that has sunk to the bottom of the containers. This was also on the surface of the meat but it washed off easily.

The joints were washed and then patted dry before weighing. They were then labelled and put on wire racks ready to equalise in the fridge. I will let them rest for 5 days before slicing and sampling.













Resting after 14 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 16, 2015






Samples of each of the belly brines were also taken to be analysed - these were vac packed and frozen.

After 14 days there was a marked difference in weight increase between the loin and the belly. The loins were fairly similar at ~10% increase however the bellies increased in weight between 16%-20%

BrineMeatDaysBrine
VolumeIn
DateIn
Weight gOut
DateOut
Weight g%
Increase1Loin145 Litres02/02/2015109616/02/201512051.101Belly145 Litres02/02/201599716/02/201511941.202Loin145 Litres02/02/201593016/02/201510171.092Belly145 Litres02/02/2015102616/02/201511931.16
The trial is not complete but there are several things we can infer from the results so far:

There is a distinct difference between the two cuts of meat as to how much liquid that can be absorbed over a 14 day period. The pork belly was capable of absorbing twice the volume of brine than the loin
The assumption that the pork will only take up 10% of its weight of the brine needs to be reviewed and the different cuts of meat need to be taken into consideration. In this experiment the belly was shown to take up up to 20%.
With the more concentrated brine in pork belly, even discounting the diffusion of brine into the cellular fluids of the meat itself, it is possible/probable that the resulting nitrite in the belly pork will be at least 2 x that which was originally calculated. We cannot tell for sure though until we get the lab results.
Next update in 5 days


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> The assumption that the pork will only take up 10% of its weight of the brine needs to be reviewed and the different cuts of meat need to be taken into consideration. In this experiment the belly was shown to take up up to 20%.



Where is this assumption coming from?


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

And then there was skin. Here are the results for the skin after 14 days in the brine:

BrineMeatDaysBrine
VolumeIn
DateIn
Weight gOut
DateOut
Weight g%
Increase1Skin141 Litre02/02/201511416/02/20151711.502Skin141 Litre02/02/201512216/02/20151941.59
A 50%-59% increase. Now that was unexpected ! This gives a potential of between 5x and 6x the calculated cure concentration in the skin area of the meat if it is left on.













Skin after 14 days.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 16, 2015


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## daveomak (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> And then there was skin. Here are the results for the skin after 14 days in the brine:
> 
> A 50%-59% increase. Now that was unexpected ! This gives a potential of between 5x and 6x the calculated cure concentration in the skin area of the meat if it is left on.





It may absorb water....  does it absorb salt and nitrite in representative amounts...


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 16, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> It may absorb water....  does it absorb salt and nitrite in representative amounts...


Given enough time the "liquid" in the meat will have the same concentration of salt/nitrite as the brine around the meat. Is 14 days long enough for equalization? We'll see when Wade gets the sample tested.


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Where is this assumption coming from?


From the posts in the original Prague Powder threads where it was claimed that with this immersion brine method there was an assumed 10% cure pickup. When Atomicsmoke asked about how this was arrived at he was told that "_Just so there's no confusion and everyone understands....percent pick-up is the total amount of brine solution absorbed by the cured product in relation weight._"

For this to be true then for the 10% assumed pickup rate in the calculation would require there to be a brine uptake of around 10% by weight. For the loin this was true but for the belly it was twice this amount.


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> It may absorb water.... does it absorb salt and nitrite in representative amounts...


That we don't know yet. It is likely that the absorption will be non specific diffusion though - but we will have to wait and see


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> > Where is this assumption coming from?
> ...



This is a persistant misunderstanding.
I've pointed out several times that there is no assumed 10% pick-up.
10% pick-up was used in the calculation (and often is) to determine compliance with the nitrite limits (AT 10% pick-up ONLY) as set by the FDA and USDA, it's only a test.
According to the USDA's equations or methods, a cured product either complies or does not comply at any given pick-up percentage....if it does not comply....adjustments need to be made.
I don't know how else to say it, it's pretty simple really.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> And then there was skin. Here are the results for the skin after 14 days in the brine:



I'm curious why you didn't go with a skin-on belly.
That would be much more in context.


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> I'm curious why you didn't go with a skin-on belly.
> That would be much more in context.


Not really. I always cure mine skin off and there is an assumed calculation to make adjustments for leaving the skin on. This test was with skin off - maybe the next one could be with skin on to see if the adjustment holds true in practice. The skin test was really an afterthought to see just how much skin by itself would absorb compared to the meat.

Part of different post edited out


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> So if the 10% pickup is not assumed why does it then form part of the



Part of the what?



Wade said:


> ...there is an assumed calculation to make adjustments for leaving the skin on.



Yes, I know, that's what I meant by staying in context.


----------



## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> This is a persistant misunderstanding.
> I've pointed out several times that there is no assumed 10% pick-up.
> 10% pick-up was used in the calculation (and often is) to determine compliance with the nitrite limits (AT 10% pick-up ONLY) as set by the FDA and USDA, it's only a test.
> According to the USDA's equations or methods, a cured product either complies or does not comply at any given pick-up percentage....if it does not comply....adjustments need to be made.
> I don't know how else to say it, it's pretty simple really.


Unfortunately the 10% assumption is built into the calculations you posted for this curing method and so I cannot see how you can say that the 10% pickup is not assumed



DiggingDogFarm said:


> Okay, here's how an immersion brine is checked for ingoing nitrite (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)
> 
> Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite
> 
> ...



If the 10% isn't 10% then what is it?  If it turns out to be 20% - as appears to be the case of the belly pork - then the calculated Nitrite in your post would be closer to 344 Ppm than the 172 Ppm in the calculation. This would be a big difference.


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Part of the what?
> Yes, I know, that's what I meant by staying in context.


Martin - if it makes you feel happier just forget the added test of the skin. It is for my own information and has no particular bearing on the other testing being undertaken.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

Wade said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> > This is a persistant misunderstanding.
> ...



It would be in compliance* (according to the 'rulers')* in the example above at 10% pick-up OR 10% pump.
If one pumps the meat or immerses to meat to 20% pick-up or pump it's not in compliance.
So, common sense dictates not pumping OR immersing beyond 10% pump or pick-up to stay in compliance.


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## wade (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> It would be in compliance (according to the 'rulers') in the example above at 10% pick-up OR 10% pump.
> If one pumps the meat or immerses to meat to 20% pick-up or pump it's not in compliance.
> So, common sense dictates not pumping OR immersing beyond 10% pump or pick-up to stay in compliance.


I have seen this documented with regards to pumping but not to brining. We will see what happens when the results come back.

Next update in 5 days when the final joints are sliced.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

I seriously doubt they'll be the same.
It's all approximations (or acceptable ranges) anyway.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

I looked through some of my USB thumb drives (about 150 GB of meat curing & sausage making and curing info so far) and while it's not the info I was looking for I did find a few good pieces...

Here are a couple.....

Diffusion coefficients for the Chloride Ion, NO3 and NO2 in some pork and beef muscles....it illustrates why actual pick-up may be all over the place.....












Screenshot - 02162015 - 05:21:10 PM.png



__ diggingdogfarm
__ Feb 16, 2015






Diffusion of Salt in Food and Diffusion of Sodium Chloride in Pork Tissue....
[ATTACHMENT=1940]pub_ReggM_1985_135041.pdf (1,443k. pdf file)[/ATTACHMENT]
[ATTACHMENT=1939]11016527.pdf (326k. pdf file)[/ATTACHMENT]
Plenty of references cited in both.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 16, 2015)

The 10% pickup "factor" is referenced all over the web. After-immersion weigh-in is rarely mentioned. One is likely to assume the belly will pick up 10% regardless of time spent in brine.  Even in the "Prague powder " thread the after-immersion weight was not mentioned until after Wade and I question the "10% pickup" ppm levels.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> The 10% pickup "factor" is referenced all over the web. After-immersion weigh-in is rarely mentioned. One is likely to assume the belly will pick up 10% regardless of time spent in brine. Even in the "Prague powder " thread the after-immersion weight was not mentioned until after Wade and I question the "10% pickup" ppm levels.




All it really takes to understand this is a close look at the "rulers'" equation I posted and the understanding that "at" really does mean "at."

*"Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite"*

There's no mention of 10% pick-up or time in the equation ...

....but further down.

_*At 10% pick-up, it's within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.*_


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 16, 2015)

Yet...not mentioning of "this method requires close monitoring to ensure you don't exceed 10% pickup". That 10% is considered a given. Look it up in other meat curing forums (sausagemaker).


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> Yet...not mentioning of "this method requires close monitoring to ensure you don't exceed 10% pickup". That 10% is considered a given. Look it up in other meat curing forums (sausagemaker).



But you could exceed 10% pick-up a bit in that example and still be within the limit.


DiggingDogFarm said:


> Maximum % pick-up (or gain) = (200ppm x total weight of the brine solution ÷ weight of the nitrite x 1,000,000) x100
> 
> So, using the numbers from the other thread.....
> 
> ...



If folks don't understand, it's their responsibility to ask questions or do the research..or...pick a better curing method.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 16, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> But you could exceed 10% pick-up a bit in that example and still be within the limit.
> If folks don't understand, it's their responsibility to ask questions or do the research..or...pick a better curing method.


I will stop here. We talked this to death in a different thread. I won't hijack Wade's work after all the time and expense he put in. His test result will put this to rest.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> DiggingDogFarm said:
> 
> 
> > But you could exceed 10% pick-up a bit in that example and still be within the limit.
> ...




I'm following forum rules, which is not always what I follow in 'real' life.
In matters of food safety the USDA/FSIS rules and such are to be respected in this forum.
I don't immersion cure that way, it's a crappy way to cure for several reasons.


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## diggingdogfarm (Feb 16, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> I will stop here. We talked this to death in a different thread. I won't hijack Wade's work after all the time and expense he put in. His test result will put this to rest.



Put what to rest?

It's forum policy to follow USDA/FSIS rules and methods as I said above.
I certainly have never said i agree with all that the 'rulers' (USDA/FSIS) spew, *I don't,* but it is what it is and we have to deal with it or move on.

No tests will change that.


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## snorkelinggirl (Feb 16, 2015)

OK, so I'm getting really confused here.

I personally don't understand the whole 10% pickup thing, but I've tried to stay away from it by sticking with immersion equilibrium curing.  I use Martin's cure calculator but use the weight of the meat + weight of the water, put in the correct ppm of nitrite per the USDA depending on whether I am curing ham or bacon or whatnot, and then leave the meat in the brine for a long time to hopefully reach equilibrium (7 days per inch of thickness, and injecting around bones or if the meat was over around 2" thick).  I don't mean to be derailing Wade's thread in any way, but is this not a more robust way of curing?


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## wade (Feb 17, 2015)

SnorkelingGirl said:


> OK, so I'm getting really confused here.
> 
> I personally don't understand the whole 10% pickup thing, but I've tried to stay away from it by sticking with immersion equilibrium curing.  I use Martin's cure calculator but use the weight of the meat + weight of the water, put in the correct ppm of nitrite per the USDA depending on whether I am curing ham or bacon or whatnot, and then leave the meat in the brine for a long time to hopefully reach equilibrium (7 days per inch of thickness, and injecting around bones or if the meat was over around 2" thick).  I don't mean to be derailing Wade's thread in any way, but is this not a more robust way of curing?


When you say the weight of the water are you meaning the increase in weight of the meat as the brine is absorbed? If so I guess you would need to be weighing the meat daily when it is in the brine to see when it has absorbed the right amount of brine to result in your required calculated final Ppm.


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## daveomak (Feb 17, 2015)

Wade said:


> When you say the weight of the water are you meaning the increase in weight of the meat as the brine is absorbed? If so I guess you would need to be weighing the meat daily when it is in the brine to see when it has absorbed the right amount of brine to result in your required calculated final Ppm.



Wade, morning....   The weight of the water in the brine solution...   weigh the meat and water and make it up to what ever Ppm nitrite for curing, you need....  Do an equilibrium cure...


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## wade (Feb 17, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Wade, morning.... The weight of the water in the brine solution... weigh the meat and water and make it up to what ever Ppm nitrite for curing, you need.... Do an equilibrium cure...


I think I may be getting confused here - or maybe people are talking about different things. Are you saying that for the calculation the total weight of water in the brine in SnorkelingGirls post is the same as brine uptake in the equation in Martins posts?


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## snorkelinggirl (Feb 17, 2015)

Wade said:


> DaveOmak said:
> 
> 
> > Wade, morning.... The weight of the water in the brine solution... weigh the meat and water and make it up to what ever Ppm nitrite for curing, you need.... Do an equilibrium cure...
> ...


There is no calculation of pickup % or brine uptake required when you do equilibrium curing.  You have to make the assumption that, given adequate curing time, the meat and the brine will reach an equilibrium state in regards to diffusion of salt and nitrite.  Inputs to the calculation are the desired salt % in the meat (based on your taste buds and any food safety considerations), nitrite ppm (based on USDA food safety specifications), the weight of the water used to make the brine, the weight of your meat, and the % of nitrite in your curing product (i.e. Cure #1).  The outputs of the calculation are the actual weight of salt and the weight of Cure #1 required to achieve your desired nitrite ppm level and salt %, assuming that you give adequate time for the salt and nitrite in the meat and brine to reach an equilibrium state.  Please see Martin's cure calculator for the actual equation.  

To my mind, this is a far safer and more predictable way to cure.  My understanding, which may not be correct, is that commercial producers of cured meat don't use this method because it takes too long and is therefore impractical when dealing with large volumes of curing meat.  But for the home producer, it is safer, better, and gets you away from having to be concerned that you are pulling your meat from the brine a day too early or too late.  You cannot overcure meat when using equilibrium curing, in theory.  And as long as you allow long enough cure time, you will also not undercure.


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 17, 2015)

Both the equilibrium and the "full strength" brines are immersion brines. Meat will pick up brine in both cases. That was what determined Wade and I to start asking questions.

SnorkelingGirl
If you check the recent "Prague Powder #1" thread this will make more sense.


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## daveomak (Feb 17, 2015)

atomicsmoke said:


> Both the equilibrium and the "full strength" brines are immersion brines. Meat will pick up brine in both cases. That was what determined Wade and I to start asking questions.
> 
> SnorkelingGirl
> If you check the recent "Prague Powder #1" thread this will make more sense.



Snorkeling Girl doesn't need to check that post....   She understands curing perfectly.....


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## atomicsmoke (Feb 17, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> Snorkeling Girl doesn't need to check that post....   She understands curing perfectly.....


I meant for her to understand the point of this discussion not curing in general. Sheesh...everyone is edgy these days.


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## wade (Feb 17, 2015)

SnorkelingGirl said:


> There is no calculation of pickup % or brine uptake required when you do equilibrium curing.  You have to make the assumption that, given adequate curing time, the meat and the brine will reach an equilibrium state in regards to diffusion of salt and nitrite.  Inputs to the calculation are the desired salt % in the meat (based on your taste buds and any food safety considerations), nitrite ppm (based on USDA food safety specifications), the weight of the water used to make the brine, the weight of your meat, and the % of nitrite in your curing product (i.e. Cure #1).  The outputs of the calculation are the actual weight of salt and the weight of Cure #1 required to achieve your desired nitrite ppm level and salt %, assuming that you give adequate time for the salt and nitrite in the meat and brine to reach an equilibrium state.  Please see Martin's cure calculator for the actual equation.
> 
> To my mind, this is a far safer and more predictable way to cure.  My understanding, which may not be correct, is that commercial producers of cured meat don't use this method because it takes too long and is therefore impractical when dealing with large volumes of curing meat.  But for the home producer, it is safer, better, and gets you away from having to be concerned that you are pulling your meat from the brine a day too early or too late.  You cannot overcure meat when using equilibrium curing, in theory.  And as long as you allow long enough cure time, you will also not undercure.


Hi SnorkelingGirl. So you are calculating the immersion brine concentration to be the same as the final desired concentration - which makes total sense. The question here though is about using the 10x concentrated brine for immersion curing. I agree with you - when using the equilibrium brining at the required final strength, like dry curing, it is highly unlikely that you will exceed the strength of the cure in the brine no matter how long it is cured for.


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## wade (Feb 21, 2015)

After 5 days if resting in the fridge the 14 day cure batches were ready for slicing.

Before slicing each batch was again weighed to see if there was any weight loss as the meat drained during the rest period. There was a very slight weight loss in all immersion cured batches which was  an average of 1.6% for the Loin and 3% for the belly. There was no weight loss with the Dry cure batches.

Each batch was sliced individually with the test samples taken from the centre of the joint. All equipment and surfaces were washed down between batches being sliced to avoid any cross contamination.













batch 4 6 8 10 11 12 after resting.jpg



__ wade
__ Feb 21, 2015






The picture above shows - On the left the loin and belly from Brine 1 - In the centre the Loin and belly from Brine 2 and on the right the loin and belly that was Dry Cured.

It is not as noticeable in the photo but the colour of the Dry cure was a mach deeper red than either of the immersion cured joints.

All samples are now frozen and will be delivered to the testing labs on Monday. Their turn around time is quoted as 10 days so I guess the next update will be in a couple of weeks.


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## pops6927 (Feb 21, 2015)

In response to curing questions on ppm, here is the FSIS explanation:

Here is the way to calculate PPM:

*USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, page 7: Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = ppm

First you need to find out how much Sodium Nitrite is in a specific amount of Cure. Let's say that we want to use 3oz of
InstaCure#1. You have to find what 3 oz is in LBS, this is done by dividing 3 by 16 (because there are 16 ozs in a pound),
this comes to 0.1875 lbs.

Cure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite. So, to find out how much Nitrite is in that 0.1875 lbs of Cure, multiply 0.1875 by that
percentage as a decimal… 0.1875 x 0.0625 = 0.01171 lbs Sodium Nitrite in 3 oz Cure.

The ‘weight of brine’ is simply how heavy the water/brine is… One gallon of water weighs approximately 8.33 lbs.

Now to find the Parts Per Million (ppm), here is the formula:

multiply nitrites by % pump by 1,000,000 and DIVIDE it by the weight of your brine.

Here is the ppm formula for 3 oz Cure#1:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = parts per million
0.01171 x 0.10 x 1,000,000 / 8.33 = ppm
0.001171 x 1,000,000 / 8.33 = ppm
1171 / 8.33 = ppm

140 ppm nitrite in 1 gallon of water when using 3 oz of Cure#1.

My brine is considerably lower, 1/3rd as much.  My dad argued, and won, with the State of NY Meat Inspection that his lower nitrite brine was safe and effective when left to cure longer and would produce a more tender, more flavorful, product and was allowed to continue for 40 years.

For the Metric side of the world:

*USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook, page 7:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = ppm

First, you need to find out how much Sodium Nitrite is in a specific amount of Cure.

Let's say that we want to use 85g of InstaCure#1. InstaCure #1 has 6.25% Sodium Nitrite.

So, to find out how much Nitrite is in that 85 grams of Cure, multiply 85 by 6.25% as a decimal… 85 x 0.0625 = 5.3125g Sodium Nitrite in 85g Cure.

The ‘weight of brine’ is simply how heavy the water/brine is… One gallon (3.78 l) of water weighs approximately 3,778g.

Now to find the Parts Per Million (ppm), here is the formula: multiply nitrites by % pump by 1,000,000 and DIVIDE it by the weight of your brine.

Here is the ppm formula for 85g Cure#1:

Nitrite x 10% pump x 1,000,000 / weight of brine = parts per million 5.3125 x 0.10 x 1,000,000 / 3,778 = ppm 0.53125 x 1,000,000 / 3,778 = ppm 531,250 / 3,778 = ppm

140 ppm nitrite in 1 gallon (3.78 l) of water when using 85 grams of Cure#1.


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## DanMcG (Feb 21, 2015)

Looking forward to your final results Wade


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## pops6927 (Feb 22, 2015)

Explanation of Brine Pump:













from.jpg



__ pops6927
__ Feb 22, 2015


















Brine pump rate chart.jpg



__ pops6927
__ Feb 22, 2015






This is when you first Introduce your meat to curing brine.  Then, you let soak, then smoke it to 146° fully cooked.  Let cool and drip, then weigh the final product.  If you have added more weight than the original weight, it can be labeled 10% (or 20% or 30%) Water Added Product, depending on the final weight.  At my dad's store, we added approx. 10% pump, and likewise took that out during smoking so the final weight was always right around 0% gain.


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## bladebuilder (Feb 22, 2015)

Gentlemen, if nothing else, all this discussion, and examples is giving me a much better understanding of the methods for brine curing, still beating around a couple questions. If you calculate for an equilibrium brine, say for a ham (seems I will be doing a couple hams), and you inject that brine at the pre equalized concentration, due to the meat thickness and to get around/closer to bones and joints(its been recommended here in many threads to inject if there is more than 2" thickness edge to center?) Then allow it to soak for the recommended time, is this still an equalization (Because the brine was calculated for an equalization cure) or a pump method (because the liquid was injected, thus increasing the weight of the ham)?


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## wade (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks for the Brine Pump Rate Chart Pops 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Some general comments about the purpose of this thread.

A quick summary of the ways that various folks on here been discussing regarding curing a piece of pork to make bacon.

Dry curing - An exact amount of Nitrite is combined with a desired amount of salt and sugar which is then applied to the surface of the meat and is allowed to diffuse into the meat until an equilibrium is reached.
Immersion curing - The meat is totally immersed in a brine that contains a known concentration of Nitrite, salt and sugar. It is left in the brine for a period of time to allow the cure to diffuse into the meat. There are different calculations used for this though - see below.
Injection brining - A known volume of concentrated brine is injected into the meat and it is allowed to diffuse through it until an equilibrium is reached.
A combination of 2 and 3.
The testing in this thread is only focusing on the Immersion curing method (2) and is looking to check (through lab testing) the actual resulting amount of cure that is in a piece of pork using two of the immersion brining methods that have been endorsed by members of the forum.

Pop's Low Salt brine.
This uses an initial brine strength of 280 mg/litre Nitrite*
It uses a lower Nitrite concentration (1/3) than the one his father used and regularly had lab test for 40 years

The brine calculation from DDF post in the Prague Powder #1  thread
This uses a much higher brine strength of 1,800 mg/litre Nitrite* 
The method is described in the USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook as a valid way of calculating cure uptake

_* - I am using mg/litre Nitrite here instead of Ppm to avoid the different opinions regarding Ppm caclulation. People can apply their own preferred calculation to these figures, though the slight difference between the calculated mg/litre and Ppm is not significant for the purposes of this discussion._

With the two brines being so different in strength (one being almost 10 times the concentration of the other) it raised some questions about how both recognised methods of curing, using similar immersion techniques, could *both*  end up with residual Nitrite levels within the meat that were within the FDA guidelines? Did one end up at the very top end and the other at the very bottom of the range?

Both use different principles to calculate the levels of resulting levels of Nitrite.

Pops effectively uses equilibrium brining that allows the cure in the brine to diffuse through the meat until it approaches an equilibrium with the brine around it. This is what SnorkelingGirl was describing earlier.
The "Prague Powder #1" thread method works on the principle of % pickup, where the meat only picks up a %age of the cure from the surrounding brine. The USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook states on page 22 that the % pickup is calculated as being the the increase in weight of the meat as it absorbs the brine while immersed. This is generally considered to be around 10%
That leaves us with a bit of a dilemma.

If the % pickup calculation is applied to Pop's brine method then the resulting residual Nitrite would only be in the region of 28 mg/Kg (Ppm) - The low end of the USDA scale for Nitrite is 40 Ppm.
If the equilibrium calculation was applied to the "Prague Powder #1" brine then the resulting residual Nitrite would be approaching 1,800 Ppm - The high end of the scale for Nitrite is 200 Ppm.
Which is right? Are they both right? The only way to see was to test them both.


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## skandic (Feb 28, 2015)

Hi,

I think this is a worthwhile experiment to undertake - so thanks for doing this. But it does raise another question worth considering: 

If a manufacturer claims that cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in a package mixed with salt, then how can we be sure that every gram we take out is exactly 93.75% salt and 6.25% nitrite. There must be an assumption level built on statistical evidence which we assume is correct, otherwise we would have no confidence in using cure.

I don't mean to take away from this thread, but I was afraid i would forget and my point is that sometimes we need to go on assumptions that are established. But it is good to question and validate data as we'll.

Keep up the good work Wade.

In solidarity,

Skandic


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## pops6927 (Mar 1, 2015)

I give mine a shake before measuring it out.


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## diggingdogfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

Skandic said:


> If a manufacturer claims that cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in a package mixed with salt, then how can we be sure that every gram we take out is exactly 93.75% salt and 6.25% nitrite. There must be an assumption level built on statistical evidence which we assume is correct, otherwise we would have no confidence in using cure.



If it's real Cure #1 made by the process first invented and patented by Karl Max Seifert and subsequently improved by Griffith Laboratories, it's a homogeneous product that can't separate.

*"Seifert Patent No. 1,950,459, small quantities of other salts dissolved with larger quantities of sodium chloride, and so treated, form a salt product which is homogeneous in composition."*

http://www.google.com/patents/US1950459


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## wade (Mar 1, 2015)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> If it's real Cure #1 made by the process first invented and patented by Karl Max Seifert and subsequently improved by Griffith Laboratories, it's a homogeneous product that can't separate.


Unfortunately you cannot know with *absolute* certainty as any simple mixture of salts, no matter how well mixed or how fine it is powdered, is likely to have slight mixture variations. If made by a reputable cure manufacturer they will have several samples analysed from each batch to ensure that the batch is as homogeneous as possible. Mostly we just take their assurances that their product is what it claims to be - although if you wanted to check, their batch test results should be available if you ask to see them. I do ask for (and get) the analysis certificates from the suppliers I use in the UK. Wherever you have a mix of salts like this you are always going to get statistical variation between samples but so long as the variation is within acceptable limits then there is not a problem.

There are a lot of manufacturers of curing salts and many/most of these are bulk chemical manufacturers that simply blend the salt and nitrite without using the process described above by DDF. Again this is not a problem providing the mix was properly blended during manufacture and the batch testing was positive. Because of the accuracy (or not) of us trying to weigh out the cure to the nearest 1/10th of a gram and the accuracy to which the meat is weighed, combined with just general biological variation of uptake during the curing process, the minute variations that you may get in the original cure mixture is not likely to have a significant effect.

As Martin implies - buy your cure from a reputable source. It also does not hurt to shake it before you measure it out. Also use the most accurate scales that you have when weighing the cure.

If you are making an immersion or pumping brine it is also important to weigh the water too, as relying on the markings on the side of a measuring jug or barrel will considerably increase the inaccuracy of the resulting brine concentration.


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## daveomak (Mar 1, 2015)

ghenges said:


> Have followed this thread with a great deal of interest subsequent to having quite possibly the best bacon we ever raised rendered inedible by a local curing shop (USDA approved btw)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wade (Mar 1, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> ghenges said:
> 
> 
> > Now this is where it gets really contentious,
> ...


Pops brine itself starts off being 281 mg/litre and so depending on your calculation for determining Ppm then the Ppm will be somewhere in that region.

The resulting *calculated* Ppm Nitrite in the meat though will differ depending on which calculation you decide to use.

If you decide to assume that equilibrium brining is taking place then the resulting Nitrite would be somewhat less (but approaching) the 280 Ppm figure.

However if instead you choose to apply the 10% uptake calculation (from the Prague Powder thread), then the calculated Ppm would be approaching the 28 Ppm figure.


ghenges said:


> Wade,
> 
> A method meet the percent addition you prefer for a particular product would be to periodically remove and weigh the product as it is soaking in a properly formulated brine solution. For example, when a 10 lb. green weight bacon weighs 11 pounds remove it from the curing solution.
> 
> ...


The periodic weighing of the meat to determine brine take up was mentioned by DDF in the Prague Powder thread and weight increase is alluded to as being the way of calculating % take up in the USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook. This is fine so long as you accept that the only Nitrite take up will be as a result of the weight increase - and that there is no equilibrium take up taking place as well.

From the weighing results that I posted earlier in this thread you will see that even after 7 days some of the meat had exceeded the 10% take up however even after the 14 days some had not yet reached the 10%. *Some of the equilibrium brining methods described on here assume that full equilibrium is reached after 14 days in the brine*. If this were so then the meat that had been in the 10x concentrated brine for 14 days (and had not yet reached 10% increase) would have not only reached full equilibrium with the strong brine but will also have taken up 9% of its weight in the strong brine solution too.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 1, 2015)

Ghenges,
Have you read the Prague Powder thread Wade is referencing above? If not ...please do so...otherwise this thread won't make much sense.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 1, 2015)

ghenges said:


> Respectfully Dave,
> 
> *"depending on what size the TBS. is...." * ????
> 
> ...


I am not sure how you got your numbers.  Pops brine says 1tbs of brine /gallon of water. How do you plan to cure 100lbs of meat in 1 gallon of brine?


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 1, 2015)

I did mean 1tbs of cure not brine. 

Wade's results will answer a lot of questions.


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## wade (Mar 2, 2015)

ghenges said:


> I thought that also until he replied to my post.


I think you need to read the threads in full. This is EXACTLY what I am skeptical about. There appear to be two "accepted" methods of calculating immersion brine uptake on here that appear to use the same physical method - but which use brine with Nitrite concentrations an order of magnitude apart. There are staunch supporters of both methods on here that claim that one or the other method produces an end result that is safe and within the guidelines. I cannot see how *both* can do this, however I do not have sufficient evidence to know whether one or the other is correct.

Personally I have a great deal of difficulty accepting that a 10% increase in weight is the equivalent of a 10% uptake in Nitrite however the "USDA Processing Inspectors' Calculations Handbook" (which is considered as gospel by some) actually says that it is. Although I am skeptical of this methodology I am keeping an open mind and not trying to pre-judge any results until the lab tests are back. Because of this I am simply trying to phrase my words in the posts in such a way that I am not offending the believers of either method. This is actually very hard to do and may be why you think I am "on my own planet".


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## daveomak (Mar 2, 2015)

delete.......

I caught my mistake.....   so all three of us are tied.....


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## daveomak (Mar 2, 2015)

Wade.....   Sh#t.... I did it again.....   I wrote ~180 Ppm in place of ~280.... in post 105....    Thanks for catching that.....   I'm gonna have to award prizes to the person that catches the "most errors" Dave puts out ....  shall that contest be a weekly or daily contest....  

You and Martin are tied for now....


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 2, 2015)

ghenges said:


> I am not sure what your purpose is? To stop Wade from finishing his experiment?


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## wade (Mar 3, 2015)

Hi Ghenges. I see that you have been registered on the forum now for 12 months and in that time have only made one other post (a year ago) before suddenly becoming so enthusiastically vocal in this specific thread. I do find that somewhat strange. Do you usually post under another name on this forum and are using this name as a pseudonym?


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## wade (Mar 3, 2015)

You are entitled to your own opinion however many others on here do not share your viewpoint.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 3, 2015)

Ghenges,
It was suggested time and time again to read and understand what started this experiment. Wade and I were not defending the status quo but we were requesting clarifications on universally accepted methods. We did not get the clarifications and Wade decided to test the methods on his own dime. He does not have a dog on this fight. Neither do I. 
You seem to know a lot about the Internet community, forums and message boards. I am sure you know that one does not bring credibility to the table with name calling, transparent innuendos and vicious posts.


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## atomicsmoke (Mar 3, 2015)

Virtually silent?


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## chef jimmyj (Mar 3, 2015)

OK GUYS...This thread will be locked if this Jousting gets out of hand. Posts will be edited to remove remarks that are deemed rude. The rules here are as follows...

There are some Hot subjects that come up in Safety from time to time while Friendly debate is acceptable...Rude Arguing is not any kind of Fun and Threads may be Locked from time to time to allow a cooling off period...

Please be nice to one another... Disparaging Comments about another members Post, Education, Abilities or Intent...Is just not right and will have to be deleted with a Warning sent...Further infractions will be grounds for Suspension and/or Banning from the SMF...We all lose in this situation...

This is all encompassing. There is no favoritism. I myself have let my passion for a subject cause me to argue in a thread. This added nothing in terms of useful information and I caused undue upset to a friend, Mr. T, and other untold numbers of member that could of read the thread and leave thinking " This site is like all the rest..." We are not!!! Again I apologize to all for my handling of the subject matter...JJ


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## centex99 (Mar 7, 2015)

Wade,

Thanks for doing this study... very interesting to say the least.  Any updates on the results?


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## wade (Mar 8, 2015)

Hi Centex99

Thanks for asking. I have been refraining from posting more here until the results come back as there appeared to be an attempt to hijack this thread and throw it off track.

I contacted the labs on Friday (6th March) and they tell me that I should have the results on Monday or Tuesday this week (9th/10th). It may then take me a couple more days to post them. The labs I am using are a company called ALS Global. They are a large reputable testing organisation who do the lab testing for most of the major supermarkets here in the UK. Being large they unfortunately have their rigid internal processes, and frustratingly when they quote 10 working days to do these tests - they take 10 working days !!! LOL They did offer to quote me to expedite them though...

Wade


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## supplysergeant (Mar 8, 2015)

I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the results. Wade, thank you for undertaking this experiment. I have the utmost respect for the old ways and established wisdom, but properly collected empirical data is hard to argue with. Since my entire, extended family eats my cured products, I want to use any tool available to ensure they are safe!


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## bladebuilder (Mar 9, 2015)

131.9 pounds total? How did you achieve 13.2 kilos of water? For clarity, could your percent column show percent as a whole number, and not have to mentally move the decimal place? For someone looking at your header, and reading the numerical value, it is easily construed as a decimal of a single percentage point.


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## bladebuilder (Mar 10, 2015)

Can you explain? Your calculator was all over the place... Again, 131.9 pounds total, and 13.2 kilos of water... doesn't leave a lot of faith with regards to a numerical prediction at 275 ppm... With the amount of nitrite referenced in the thread... I'm obviously missing something your seeing. Can you show how you got your result?


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## wade (Mar 10, 2015)

I will not be posting further information in this thread as a summary of the testing, along with the lab test results, have now been posted in a new thread. This it to make it easier to read. You can find the new thread here.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/181560/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results

Wade


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