# 40-140 ?



## gableguy (Dec 2, 2011)

So I'm cooking two 10 lb butts. The butts are still partially frozen in the center, been in the fridge since Sunday. I inserted a probe in the butt I injected to monitor the meat temps. No probe in the 2nd butt because I didn't inject it. The meat has been on for an hour and the internal temp of the one butt is 36 deg, started at 32 deg, does the 40-140 4 hour rule apply/ start after the meat reaches 40 deg? I use maverick probes and I checked the probes in boiling water before starting. My cooking temp is ranging 240-290 (UDS). Any help would be appreciated.


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## elohel (Dec 2, 2011)

I would assume so since pathogenic bacteria generally can't grow at low temps like that


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 2, 2011)

10lb...I'll assume bone-in..if so, the one not injected doesn't need much worry, just give it at least 225* smoke chamber temps. 240-290* will definitely get you there. The 40-140*/4-hr guideline for non-intact whole muscle meat has changed to 41-135*/4-hrs.

Basically, the way I interpret the guideline, is that the clock starts once it's over 40*, and it sounds like you've kept it far below the 40* mark up until it landed in the smoker.

Eric


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## gableguy (Dec 2, 2011)

I was thinking that it wouldn't start untill it reached 140 but just wanted some reassurance. Yes they are bone in.


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## jc1947 (Dec 2, 2011)

forluvofsmoke said:


> 10lb...I'll assume bone-in..if so, the one not injected doesn't need much worry, just give it at least 225* smoke chamber temps. 240-290* will definitely get you there. The 40-140*/4-hr guideline for non-intact whole muscle meat has changed to 41-135*/4-hrs.
> 
> Basically, the way I interpret the guideline, is that the clock starts once it's over 40*, and it sounds like you've kept it far below the 40* mark up until it landed in the smoker.
> 
> Eric


*What about the fact that the outside is a different temp than where the probe is? IMHO I would think that it should be from the time the surface temp reaches 40 degrees.*

*JC1947*


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 2, 2011)

JC1947 said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > 10lb...I'll assume bone-in..if so, the one not injected doesn't need much worry, just give it at least 225* smoke chamber temps. 240-290* will definitely get you there. The 40-140*/4-hr guideline for non-intact whole muscle meat has changed to 41-135*/4-hrs.
> ...


That's a very valid concern, JC.
 

At the typical hot smoking chamber temps for fresh meats of 225* and above, the meat's surface will be pasturized before the internal temp rises much at all. With non-intact meats, any process (deboning, injecting, stuffing with garlic, etc, mascerating/tenderizing) that _could_ have introduced harmful bacteria _into_ the meat is the real risk. While the surface is still the most likely place to find these harmful bacteria, they will be heated to temperatures above what they can survive before they can multiply and release enough waste toxins to be harmful for human consumption.

The center of the mass of the meat is where the internal temp and time guideline becomes the most critical, as the center mass will take the longest to pass through the danger-zone temp/time range (41-135*/4-hrs). If you can meet the guideline with center mass temp/time, the rest will obviously take less time, so measurements between the center mass and surface would not be necessary. It's all about _internal_ temps with non-intact fresh meats once they hit the cooking chamber.

Hope that bridges any gaps and clarifies things abit better for you. Bbally explained alot of this in the _*low and slow discussion *_in the *food safety forum* awhile back...HERE's the link to that thread. Note: in this thread, you will see mention of the temp/time guideline of 40-140*, which was updated in 2009 to 41-135*...this thread is from 2008.

Eric


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## austinl (Dec 2, 2011)

If you follow all other safe handling guidelines you really don't have to worry about this 140 in 4 hogwash (except maybe in your case where the meat is partially frozen :)  ).  Read the following page from the USDA; it does not say anything about this "rule" that pops up on BBQ forums but it does have a good summary of BBQ food safety.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/fact_sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp


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## austinl (Dec 2, 2011)

To further elaborate on this; I believe there is a certain amount of common sense that should go into probing.  If you know something you are cooking is going to take many hours to cook, what reason would you have to probe the meat after an hour and possibly introduce new bacteria into the meat?


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## alblancher (Dec 2, 2011)

AustinL  you are 100% correct.  You do not have to worry about the 40 to 140 rule when cooking whole muscle meat.  If the meat is injected or pierced the danger zone is a big concern.   The USDA link you posted said not to cook frozen meat because it will linger in the danger zone to long.  Which is basically the answer to the OP's question

Gableguy, 

The meat should have been properly defrosted before putting it in the smoker.  You can safely insert a clean thermometer (wiped with alcohol) or inject boiled, sterilized marinades after the surface temp of the whole muscle has reached 140 degrees.  Normally just a couple of hours after the meat has been in the hot smoker.


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## venture (Dec 2, 2011)

I let the outside of whole muscle meat come above 140 before I probe if it is going to take longer than 4 hours to cook.  Beyond that, if it is an intact muscle, not much to worry about at hot smoking temps.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 3, 2011)

AustinL said:


> If you follow all other safe handling guidelines you really don't have to worry about this 140 in 4 hogwash (except maybe in your case where the meat is partially frozen :)  ).  Read the following page from the USDA; it does not say anything about this "rule" that pops up on BBQ forums but it does have a good summary of BBQ food safety.
> 
> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/fact_sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp


A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

If you have a background in Food Safety and can provide Any information that you can Safely... cook any Meat, at any Temperature, for any length of Time, as long as you, " follow all other safe handling guidelines "...I would be happy to delete all previous reference to the 40 to140 in 4 rule and give you credit for the New Rule...Until then, "Hogwash" is a strong word to use...JJ


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## shooterrick (Dec 3, 2011)

The reference to 140 in 4 rule is what is accepted as a safety guidline for our members and should be applied to any non virgin cut of meat cooking at smoking temps for a long period of time.  The inexperienced cook should follow this rule.  Calling it "hogwash" on this site is unexceptable and potentially dangerous for those just starting out.  I would like to see this edited by the author.


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## SmokinAl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well said Rick & JJ!


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## jc1947 (Dec 3, 2011)

forluvofsmoke said:


> That's a very valid concern, JC.
> 
> 
> At the typical hot smoking chamber temps for fresh meats of 225* and above, the meat's surface will be pasturized before the internal temp rises much at all. With non-intact meats, any process (deboning, injecting, stuffing with garlic, etc, mascerating/tenderizing) that _could_ have introduced harmful bacteria _into_ the meat is the real risk. While the surface is still the most likely place to find these harmful bacteria, they will be heated to temperatures above what they can survive before they can multiply and release enough waste toxins to be harmful for human consumption.
> ...


   Thank you for the link. Here is a quote from it "Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better." which in this case cableguy said "I inserted a probe in the butt I injected to monitor the meat temps. No probe in the 2ND butt because I didn't inject it." So if he injected and probed the butt  wouldn't that mean it was subject to the 4 hour 140 rule? Or am I still not getting the point?

   From http://www.fsis.usda.gov/fact_sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp comes this quote "Completely thaw meat or poultry before smoking. Because smoking uses low temperatures to cook food, the meat will take too long to thaw in the smoker, allowing it to linger in the "Danger Zone" (temperatures between 40 and 140 °F) where harmful bacteria can multiply. Defrosted meat also cooks more evenly.

   Any help would be appreciated as I am confused.

JC1947


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## shooterrick (Dec 3, 2011)

Austin,

It may seem like we are piling on a bit but that is not our intention.  I am assuming from your post you are an experienced smoker.  We at SMF always need to take into consideration many newbies without enough knowledge to know how and when lurk here.  We are always careful with that in mind.  Do not take the criticism personally, but the last thing anyone wants is a novice either misled or over zealous making themselves or their family sick.


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## chefrob (Dec 3, 2011)

while the 40-140 rule has moved on it's #'s it is far from hogwash and needs to be observed in most cases. "40-140 in 4" is easy to remenber for most so those are the temps that "I" advocate and if you observe this range you WILL be safe. remember that whole intact muscle is not the only thing people are cooking here.........


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hey don't worry, no offense taken.  Here's my position on the matter; if this 140 in 4 is a good rule-of-thumb that's fine.  It just seems like everytime someone writes anything about cooking times this gets brought up as some kind of black and white rule and my objection is that I couldn't find any credible information relating to it in this context, that is why I started questioning it.  Its just about the semantics really, but I've had my time in the spotlight with this so I'll drop it.  I apologize for my use of the word 'hogwash'; that was bit harsh.  Anyway that's about all I have to say on the matter, happy smoking.


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## shooterrick (Dec 3, 2011)

Thanks for the input Austin.  If you look closely you usually see the rule mentioned primarily with newbies with few posts.  We are just trying to make sure they are safety aware.  Good smokes to ya.


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## frosty (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with ShooterRick, we don't wanna forget about safety, and ge back to just enjoyin SMOKIN!  The newbies can

handle their own preferences.


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 3, 2011)

JC1947 said:


> forluvofsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > That's a very valid concern, JC.
> ...


Yes, the injected butt is subject to the guideline of 40-140/4-hrs. In fact, if all you did was insert a probe too early, it should be treated the same way. That's why we don't like to probe right away when the meat goes in, unless we already have tampered with the intact nature of the meat...then, it really doesn't matter when you probe. I guess the easy way to rememeber is: if you stick it, follow the the rule.

Eric


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## venture (Dec 3, 2011)

The numbers may have slipped a little, but 4 to 140 in 4 is just so darn easy to remember!

Good luck and good smoking.


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## venture (Dec 3, 2011)

Oops.  Make that 40 to 140 in 4.  LOL

Good luck and good smoking.


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## DanMcG (Dec 3, 2011)

I get tired of people commenting on how the 40-140 rule is some sort of old wifes tale.

It is in the *FDA's 2009 Food Code *if anyone wants to look. look under 3-501.19 2.(b)

[sup]http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm186451.htm#part3-5[/sup]

(B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 4 hours:

(1) The food shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from cold holding temperature control, or 57°C (135°F) or greater when removed from hot holding temperature control; [sup]P[/sup]
(2) The food shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate the time that is 4 hours past the point in time when the food is removed from temperature control; [sup]Pf[/sup]
(3) The food shall be cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat, or discarded, within 4 hours from the point in time when the food is removed from temperature control; [sup]P[/sup] and
(4) The food in unmarked containers or packages, or marked to exceed a 4-hour limit shall be discarded. [sup]P[/sup]


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 3, 2011)

Stimulating conversation breeds understanding...Thats what makes our family Strong...JJ


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## alblancher (Dec 3, 2011)

An experienced smoker will own either a good set of tongs or a good pair of heat resistant, washable gloves.


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## exhaustedspark (Dec 3, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> I get tired of people commenting on how the 40-140 rule is some sort of old wifes tale.
> 
> It is in the *FDA's 2009 Food Code *if anyone wants to look. look under 3-501.19 2.(b)
> 
> ...




I would suggest that you take a breath. It is a myth if you are trying to use it for the control from the store. (raw meat) makeing sausage and then eating it.

There have been some who are blending the time from butchering to serving. And that would be impossable guidlines to meet.

Karl


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 3, 2011)

ExhaustedSpark said:


> Of course you would. That way a difference of opionen could be shut down. If you would take the time to call the FDA you would learn something. I find it offensive that the truth is considered needed to be edited.
> 
> Take the time to study to show yourself approved


No one is trying to Shut Down any one!  I/We are stating the Guidelines that have been adopted by the Moderators and Administrators of this Thread and this Site...You are welcome to do what ever you wish, but posts that give potentially Dangerous Opinion will be brought to the Posters attention...And repeated posts of Dangerous opininion will be Deleted...As a Professional Chef/ Restauranteur/ Certified ServSafe Instructor, I HAVE Studied, Reviewed, and Met USDA and FDA Guidelines, Scoring in the Mid 90's on Every Inspection...The FDA establishes At what Temperature and Length of Time at that Temp Food is deemed Safe for Sale to Comsumers...There are No specific Recommendations for HOW you get there...This lack of recommendation is Specifically why SMF follows a Professionally Recognized Safe Guideline that has a Margin of Error...JJ

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/F...rotection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/UCM188533.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm188201.htm


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

humm, this conversation has taken a turn......I use a pair of welding gloves because they protect my hands and I can still use my fingers! lol


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## alblancher (Dec 3, 2011)

Karl,

Every food forum requires rules.  You may ignore our advice and cook anything you wish any way you wish accepting responsibility for your own health. 

Are you willing to accept responsibility for someone else's health?  How about maybe getting an elderly person with heart disease sick with Listeria?

The moderators and administration of this site accept the responsibility of providing only safe guidance to members.  Instead of each Mod and Admin deciding which safety rules they are in agreement with and presenting many different opinions on the forum we have decided to follow published food safety codes.  We recommend these codes as a group.  We expect participants in this forum to understand our responsibilities and work with us on trying to insure basic safe food procedures.

I am friends with several members of the Moderator and Administrator teams that have extensive food safety experience   I know their education, their dedication to their food service jobs, their familiarity with food safety.    If DanMcG, Chef Jimmy, BBally or Pops talk, I listen.  I suggest everyone else listen too.  I don't know how you can question their combined experience.


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## exhaustedspark (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is my advice. Do not take a quote or nice sounding advice as fact.

Check it out.

Study and read

And when you are done and know it all Study again and keep learning there is a reason i disagree with the norm on this site.

Study it is so easy with the internent. Learn and then study some more.

Karl


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 3, 2011)

Disparaging Comments about others Knowledge and Abilities WILL NOT BE TOLERATED>>>PERIOD>>>END OF DISCUSSION...JJ


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## venture (Dec 3, 2011)

We have been around this tree before.  I hope it doesn't lead to where it has in the past.

Healthy dialog is a good thing here.

Having said that, I will stick with the 40 to 140 rule, even though the numbers are a little different now.

Others who wish to deviate from that can do so at their own risk.  I, for one, will not deviate from that in my posts for fear that someone might get sick based on the posts they see here.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## exhaustedspark (Dec 3, 2011)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Disparaging Comments about others Knowledge and Abilities WILL NOT BE TOLERATED>>>PERIOD>>>END OF DISCUSSION...JJ




 What???????


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## alblancher (Dec 3, 2011)

Austin,  I like welding gloves , they just need to be kept clean.  I found a real decent pair of tongs on sale at Cabella's that I like.  I'm trying to remember the thread that discussed food handling gloves.  I may have to drop a hint to the wifey, after all it's Christmas time and I have been a very good boy!


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## raptor700 (Dec 3, 2011)

Al, I have 2 pairs that came with my rotisserie, they are great.


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

I like this; what experience have you all had with cleaning these tough leather gloves?  I have tried putting them through the wash but they are just so darn resilient.  I don't use them (generally) to touch my food directly but they do build up a mighty seasoning and I feel wasteful with the idea of replacing them just because the finger-tips are a little blackened and make my kitchen smell like BBQ anytime they handle something hot (which I secretly enjoy).  I guess my question is, is this actually a concern I should be having?


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 3, 2011)

ExhuatedSpark...Feel free to post *Specific lines from the FDA *that says I and many before me using  this Guideline, including those on other Forums, are Wrong...The info should be fresh in your mind since you have been studying it for months...Phone calls provide no Proof...Overworked Underpaid Government workers know No more than you or I, if they even have a concept of producing BBQ...I have already established how we have determined our usage of the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline...Here it is again...JJ

A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

I can't make it any more clear than that...


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## chefrob (Dec 3, 2011)

ExhaustedSpark said:


> I would suggest that you take a breath. It is a myth if you are trying to use it for the control from the store. (raw meat) makeing sausage and then eating it.
> 
> There have been some who are blending the time from butchering to serving. And that would be impossable guidlines to meet.
> 
> Karl


Karl, not too sure where the myth is coming from. the premise is food is handled from the factory/plant to wholesale/retail in a proper fashion. wholesale/retail is to handle/store it properly and then it is up to us to do the same as an end user. if we do this then the chances of foodborne illness is greatly reduced. not trying to stir the pot, just trying to understand what about the "40-140 /4 hr" doesn't sit well with you and why. i have been serve safe certified since the '90's and have been cooking professionaly since the 80's so i have studied a few books that are based on science/trial and error with case studies. if you have any references/links or articles i would be open to checking them out.


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm going to jump topics here for a second; Jimmy I respect your continued open-ended responses to this food safety discussion.  I had no idea my original post would open this can-of-worms however, I am experienced enough to know that this can't be the first time this subject has came up on here.  The reason why I decided to drop my objection with the context of the argument is mostly because of how you paraphrased your responses.  I now see it doesn't matter if this "rule" is written in stone or not because it is a good rule-of-thumb for all members whom are free to modify it at their own descresion and I see this as a successful function of these web-forum debates.


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## forluvofsmoke (Dec 3, 2011)

AustinL said:


> I like this; what experience have you all had with cleaning these tough leather gloves?  I have tried putting them through the wash but they are just so darn resilient.  I don't use them (generally) to touch my food directly but they do build up a mighty seasoning and I feel wasteful with the idea of replacing them just because the finger-tips are a little blackened and make my kitchen smell like BBQ anytime they handle something hot (which I secretly enjoy).  I guess my question is, is this actually a concern I should be having?


I've used welding gloves for several years to handle everything hot, except direct contact with food. Yes, they get blackened from charcoal, ashes, food drippings from handling hot grates, etc. I just rub mine in dirt to absorb the grease, rub them together like you're washing your hands, then wipe them on a terry cloth rag, old towel, whatever is handy. A couple times a month usually does the job.

I don't get too concerned about them being a bit dirty, as I'm not touching food with them, and when I handle grates, I only touch the edges and always keep the food away from the edges anyway, due to this usually being a hot-spot for cooking...depending on the cooker type, of course. As long as I don't have grit from dirt, ash or charcoal getting onto the grate's food contact areas, I don't worry about it.

I've never tried to wash them with any kind of chemical detergents and water...there's probably something that would work, like simple green or other degreasers, but then, you'd have the residue issue to contend with, if any were left behind in the deep leather grains.

For actual food contact, I use 18" or longer stainless steel tongs and/or 4" wide x 6" long quad-tong meat handling forks. Either one (or both) are a great tool to have close at hand.

Eric


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sounds like we are on the same page.  I do try to make use of forks, tongs, whatever.  I'd tend to agree about those abrasive cleaners doing more harm than good; don't want my food tasting like simple green no matter how "green" it is.  Sometimes I take it as bragging rights if guests are over and make comments about how good the smell is without any Q-ing involved.  :)  some things are meant to be enjoyed without conscious.


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

And speaking of that my meatloaf is almost up to 165 and this pic should lighten the mood.  Just give me a few minutes to pull and cut into it and some much needed q-view will follow.


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

Believe it or not, that pink under the katchup is a slight smoke ring.  I've had better but this pic is what it is.







	

		
			
		

		
	
z


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## raptor700 (Dec 3, 2011)

Great looking loaf Austin


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## austinl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hey, thanks I have the recipe posted somewhere on here.  It is an old-fashion American loaf i.e.; oats, mustard, sausage, warcestershire sauce, garlic, onions, etc.


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 4, 2011)

AustinL said:


> I'm going to jump topics here for a second; Jimmy I respect your continued open-ended responses to this food safety discussion.  I had no idea my original post would open this can-of-worms however, I am experienced enough to know that this can't be the first time this subject has came up on here.  The reason why I decided to drop my objection with the context of the argument is mostly because of how you paraphrased your responses.  I now see it doesn't matter if this "rule" is written in stone or not because it is a good rule-of-thumb for all members whom are free to modify it at their own descresion and I see this as a successful function of these web-forum debates.


Thank You, Austin, for understanding the whole point...And never hesitate to add input...Learning is continuous here...JJ


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## raptor700 (Dec 4, 2011)

I think this is the post you're referring too.

Thanks for sharing your recipe.






Homestyle Meatloaf

1.25 lbs. lean ground beef

0.33 lbs. plain ground pork sausage

1 and 1/3 cups rolled oats

1 small onion, finely chopped

6 garlic cloves, pressed

2 eggs

1/3 cup milk

1 6 oz. can tomato paste

2 TBS. brown mustard

2 TBS. worcestershire sauce

1 and 1/2 tsp. salt

1 tsp. ground black pepper

1 tsp. cayenne chile powder

1/2 cup ketchup

2 tsp. marjoram

Throughly mix all ingredients in a large bowl (except for the ketchup and marjoram) and transfer to a loaf pan and pack it down well.  Spread the ketchup evenly on top and then sprinkle the marjoram on top of the ketchup.  Cover with foil and bake at 375F for 1 hour, removing the foil in the last 20 minutes of baking.

This also cooks well in a smoker.  Smoke uncovered at 240F for 2-3 hours and  letting the internal temperature reach 165F.  Add the ketchup and marjoram in the last 30 minutes of smoking.


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## tommerr (Dec 4, 2011)

As a 100% newbie, does this thread argue that smaller pieces of meat are preferred to larger cuts? If a ten pound piece of meat is cut in two, are not the smoking results and safety enhanced? Now you could take this to an extreme but I'm not talking about ground meat. My thoughts drift to pulled pork and roasts. At what point do small cuts negatively influence safety because the probe becomes useless?


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 4, 2011)

tommerr said:


> As a 100% newbie, does this thread argue that smaller pieces of meat are preferred to larger cuts? If a ten pound piece of meat is cut in two, are not the smoking results and safety enhanced? Now you could take this to an extreme but I'm not talking about ground meat. My thoughts drift to pulled pork and roasts. At what point do small cuts negatively influence safety because the probe becomes useless?


An intact hunk of meat, no injection or punctures, at 5, 10, 15Lbs up to an Entire Pig or Side of Beef, is no problem, set your temp at 225*F+/- and have at it...Where we start to be concerned with Time and Temp is with Injecting and inserting the Temp Probe in raw meat. With injection there is a risk of pushing surface bacteria into the meat where given time can multiply to unsafe levels...If you plan on Smoking a 20LB Beef Standing Rib Roast to 130*F for Med Rare, Don't inject (IMO..It don't need it!... that's a lot of money spent to have the whole thing taste like Worcestershire Sauce anyway!...) and wait an hour before you insert the Temp probe, at 225* any bugs on the outside will be dead. *That being said**, I know some inject without incidence...It is up to a well informed person to decide for themselves.*

You can probe down to a 1 inch thick cut of meat...There are no safety issues with small cuts of meat and probing for IT...JJ


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## SmokinAl (Dec 4, 2011)

Great looking meatloaf Austin, thanks for the recipe.


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## alblancher (Dec 4, 2011)

Tommerr

Just for clarification,   Meatloaf ain't intact muscle meat!!

Austin, 

Thanks for understanding the problem we had with your initial comments about food safety codes.  I appreciate you adapting your public responses to acknowledge their importance on this forum.  I brought up gloves and tongs to try and calm down the thread a bit. We normally don't hijack threads but this presents another teaching moment.  Moving raw meat with a fork negates the intact muscle meat rule and requires that the meat is handled as commingled meat, similar to your meat loaf.  If you stick a big old fork in your pork butt to move it to the smoker or to move it around in your marinade you should adhere to the 4 hour rule.  Inexpensive plastic disposable gloves are fine for applying spices and moving meat to the grill.   Tongs or food safety, heat resistant gloves should be used when moving meat on the smoker prior to the surface of the meat reaching 140.   Forks should be cleaned just like temp probes and injection needles.

Great looking Meatloaf.  Only problem is my wife cooked about 5 lbs of meat loaf day before yesterday and I have had meatloaf as part of every meal since so,  well you know.


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## austinl (Dec 4, 2011)

Wow 5 pounds is a mighty loaf.


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## alblancher (Dec 4, 2011)

Using 80/20 so the final product wasn't quite that large but yes, it was a lot of meat loaf.   Let's see I had a slab for dinner,  meat loaf cut up in my eggs for breakfast,  meatloaf sandwiches for lunch, chunked up on crackers with mayo for a snack watching football, meatloaf broken up with a bit of red sauce on pasta, zapped in the microwave with some BBQ sauce on it.  You get my drift,  no freezer room right now so eat it or lose it!


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## shooterrick (Dec 4, 2011)

I often am amazed that this keeps coming up.  Is the 40-140 in 4 a sound guidline to help folks not poison themselves?  Yes.  Is the rule gonna hurt anyone? No.  Will it gaurantee you will not get food poisoning if you use it?  Not if you pick your nose and scratch your rear and then massage your feet and touch your food with bare hands it won't help much. 

Tip:  The 40-140 in 4 will work for you to minimize possible unforseen and often cross contaminated home proceedures.  Follow it!  It will not hurt to do so and may keep you and yours healthy. 

Tip:  I use insulated rubber gloves that I wash with hot water and soap between each handleing event during a smoke before I take them off.   Easy to do. Easier than tongs for me.

Tip:  I use unpowdered surgical gloves during catering and at home while making sausage and breaking down cooked meat.  Makes friends and customers happy and confident.

Tip:  You are human as I and will make food handleing mistakes.  Try to minimize them with sound procedures but don't freak out when you do.  It is about minimizing chance.

The 40-140 in 4 will reduce risk in an already non sterile invironment.  Disinfect working surfaces and be aware of and how you do things and you will minimize the odds of bad things happening.

You are not working inside an autoclave.  Sterile and disinfected are not the same thing.  It is about risk management. 

Ok I am done with this thread now.  I suppose it is true that common sense is not so common with everyone but who would not want to minimize the chance of getting sick?  If you answere "not me" to the question read the first part of the last sentence again.


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## exhaustedspark (Dec 5, 2011)

After going back over the posts as i read the answers to my doubts and questions i see a misunderstanding. I do not know if it is me or thee. It really does not matter. Yes i do use the commercial guide lines for temp and time. My questions have and my intent has been to point out it would be imposable to meet that guide if it extended to the butcher then to the store then to my car then to my fridge or freezer the out to prepare. I have talked on PM with JJ and he is sure he did not tell me it was cumulative or maybe the word would be accumulative.  ???????

As it is written above i believe it is after i cook and then have sitting around for turkey day.

Some of my posts i thought i was being funny and after reading again they came out smart arsed and for that i apologize. I appreciate JJ experience and the work and help he offers on this forum.

Karl


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 6, 2011)

LOL... As my Dad would say tongue in cheek...."Fifty Cents one Half Dozen the other!"... I'm glad we have come to an accord... I do appreciate your input to the SMF...JJ
[h3]*ac·cu·mu·la·tive*/əˈkyo͞omyələtiv/[/h3]

Adjective:
Gathering or growing by gradual increases.
  Synonyms:
cumulative


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## jc1947 (Dec 7, 2011)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Disparaging Comments about others Knowledge and Abilities WILL NOT BE TOLERATED>>>PERIOD>>>END OF DISCUSSION...JJ


*That certainly says a lot about you and this site!*


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## culinaryeats (Feb 26, 2012)

This may be a stupid question but I'm trying to understand the risks here. What if you have to drive 30 minutes to the store, shopping and then home. Prep a injection then inject, wrap and put in the Fridge. If it was above 40 during that time will putting it back in the fridge "reset or stop the process? Should it go straight on the smoker?

After reading all this great information I'm leaning more towards standard rub / smokes rather than injecting LOL. I've had food poisoning 3 times in my life from eating out so what every I can do to never have a 4th is best by me.


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## bama bbq (Feb 26, 2012)

CulinaryEats said:


> This may be a stupid question but I'm trying to understand the risks here. What if you have to drive 30 minutes to the store, shopping and then home. Prep a injection then inject, wrap and put in the Fridge. If it was above 40 during that time will putting it back in the fridge "reset or stop the process? Should it go straight on the smoker?
> 
> After reading all this great information I'm leaning more towards standard rub / smokes rather than injecting LOL. I've had food poisoning 3 times in my life from eating out so what every I can do to never have a 4th is best by me.


I hear ya.  I've had food poisoning also and don't care for a repeat performance.


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## daveomak (Feb 26, 2012)

CulinaryEats said:


> This may be a stupid question but I'm trying to understand the risks here.* What if you have to drive 30 minutes to the store, shopping and then home.* Prep a injection then inject, wrap and put in the Fridge. If it was above 40 during that time will putting it back in the fridge "reset or stop the process? Should it go straight on the smoker?
> 
> After reading all this great information I'm leaning more towards standard rub / smokes rather than injecting LOL. I've had food poisoning 3 times in my life from eating out so what every I can do to never have a 4th is best by me.


Cul, evening.... I carry an ice chest and get ice at the store during the warm weather..... especially if I'm getting ice cream and meat... food poisoning sucks....   Dave


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## chef jimmyj (Feb 27, 2012)

CulinaryEats said:


> This may be a stupid question but I'm trying to understand the risks here. What if you have to drive 30 minutes to the store, shopping and then home. Prep a injection then inject, wrap and put in the Fridge. If it was above 40 during that time will putting it back in the fridge "reset or stop the process? Should it go straight on the smoker?
> 
> After reading all this great information I'm leaning more towards standard rub / smokes rather than injecting LOL. I've had food poisoning 3 times in my life from eating out so what every I can do to never have a 4th is best by me.


To answer your question...The clock is ticking as long as the meat is not under refrigeration or on ice...Once the Bacteria multiplies it is alive until it is killed by cooking, so during the trip home and any stops or whatever, you have growth. Putting the meat back in the refrigerator just puts it to sleep. Now you take it out to prep for injection and all that Bacteria gets back to multiplying... The bottom line is, keep it cold and cook to safe temps...JJ


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## culinaryeats (Feb 27, 2012)

Nice to know. Thank you All.


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## bbqcanuck (Mar 11, 2012)

I am a newbie here and love educating myself on these threads.  I am opening my take out soon and found the information here *very very valuable*.  In Nova Scotia here, the food handling guidelines still show the 40/140 rule - so maybe it is little different in Canada.  Just like you cannot order a rare or medium rare hamburger in a restaurant.  An excellent tip that I did not think of is inserting the probe into meat can cause bacteria into the meat itself.  I have to take the food handlers course (registered for April) which everyone has to take if they are carrying out a food service business.  At least one person on staff must be certified.

Thanks again!


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