# Question about "The Rule"



## JNG (Sep 7, 2020)

I've been a longtime lurker here, and really appreciate the good advice and friendly conversation.

I'm posting for the first time because I have a question about "The Rule."

I get that there's a lot of flex in getting out of the 'danger zone' in 4 hours when dealing with unpunctured, intact meat. The question I have is, is there also flex in safely going below the 225 smoker temp?

As you can guess, this question comes from a specific situation. Last night, I put a 9 pound butt on at about 10:30 pm and put both probes on the grate. By about 11:30, one probe had settled in at ~245 and the other one at ~220. I forgot to set minimum temp on the Maverick and fell asleep. At 6 am, one probe was reading 210 and the other 190. I went downstairs, adjusted the vents, and stuck a probe into the butt. Internal temp 156. The surface temp came quickly back up to the ~230 range.

So, for some span of time--potentially 5 or 6 hours--the smoker was rocking between 190 and 210 degrees, instead of 225. I plan to pull the butt at ~200 internal temp (it's 183 right now, at noon).

Would anyone have any food safety concerns with this situation? Appreciate the experience and advice.


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## TNJAKE (Sep 7, 2020)

Nope rock on. And we like pics


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## thirdeye (Sep 7, 2020)

The concern is the 'surface temp' of whole muscle meat, because when the surface is <140°, it can become a playground for the baddies.  Even at low barbecue temps, like 200° pit temp, the surface of the meat can easily be >140° in 4 hours.


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## indaswamp (Sep 7, 2020)

As long as the meat surface stays above 140-160ish you are good. Keep on cookin...


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## indaswamp (Sep 7, 2020)

And welcome to SMF!!


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## noboundaries (Sep 7, 2020)

Absolutely safe.


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## JLeonard (Sep 7, 2020)

Welcome from Mississippi!
Jim


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## kruizer (Sep 7, 2020)

Welcome to SMF from Minnesota.


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## JNG (Sep 7, 2020)

Thanks to all for the help and the warm welcome

I hit a second stall at around 180 and it took another 2 hours to get up to 193. I pulled it at 195, after 20 hours on the smoker, let it rest about 90 minutes, and shredded it. It was excellent.

Appreciate the help!


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## pushok2018 (Sep 7, 2020)

Welcome from NorCal!


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## SmokinAl (Sep 8, 2020)

Welcome to SMF!
Glad it turned out so well for you!
Al


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## daveomak (Sep 8, 2020)

JNG said:


> I've been a longtime lurker here, and really appreciate the good advice and friendly conversation.
> 
> I'm posting for the first time because I have a question about "The Rule."
> 
> ...




Morning....   I'm posting to reiterate "intact meat" or "Whole muscle".....
Not to be confused with ground beef or pork etc...   
OR,  Comminuted Products, as the "food police" call ground, chopped etc. products.. as these products have had the surface bacteria shoved into all the nooks and crannies of your meat...
Reason being, Whole Muscle meats are considered "sterile" below the meat surface...
Live critters are basically a capsule that bacteria "does not" penetrate...  It it did, they would be infected when they walked around the pasture etc..  They have antibodies that fight infections, as we do....  Scratches, punctures etc. to their skin allow bacteria into this "capsule"...   
It's good to know nature has protected this wonderful source of protein for us to smoke, BBQ, make sausage as long as we understand the few pitfalls in keeping it safe for consumption....
Ground, communited  products need to attain an internal temperature to kill these bacteria or pathogens in a satisfactory time period...
Sous Vide doesn't follow the "Rule", and Douglas Baldwin has an explanation, sort of.. 
 HACCP, in the dissertation "Slow Roasted" turkey, also has an explanation, sort of....


			A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking
		





__





						Slow Roasting a Turkey..   Food Safety....  HACCP test study...
					

Interesting read....   Interesting results....    HACCP AND SLOW-ROASTING TURKEYS by O. Peter Snyder, Jr., Ph.D Hospitality Institute of Technology and Management November 2008 edition     Introduction  Slow roasting turkey overnight seems to be a very common practice dating from the 1930s...




					www.smokingmeatforums.com
				




Unfortunately, the original article is hiding from me so my thread will have to do...  At the bottom of the post, the are article listed that may describe the foundation of the HACCP article....


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## indaswamp (Sep 8, 2020)

Dave, Great point on Sous Vide cooking. I recently read an article on sous vide cooking below 140*... Any time you will be cooking over 8 hours below 140* it is advisable to flash/shock the sealed bag in 180-190*F water to kill any bacteria introduced or that may be on the meat surface, then put in the sous vide bath. Otherwise, you are incubating bacteria in the danger zone and if cooking 24+ hours, the meat will sour.


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## daveomak (Sep 8, 2020)

indaswamp said:


> Dave, Great point on Sous Vide cooking. I recently read an article on sous vide cooking below 140*... Any time you will be cooking over 8 hours below 140* it is advisable to flash/shock the sealed bag in 180-190*F water to kill any bacteria introduced or that may be on the meat surface, then put in the sous vide bath. Otherwise, you are incubating bacteria in the danger zone and if cooking 24+ hours, the meat will sour.



Excellent point and good safety information....    I'll use it....  FWIW, who knows what was introduced onto the meat and the butcher shop....


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