# Binder Question



## old poi dog (Feb 10, 2012)

Aloha All,

What is the purpose of a  "binder" in a sausage?  I think I have read somewhere that it is used when smoking sausages. These would be soy protein and or powdered milk yes?   Thank you for helping me along.


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## smokinhusker (Feb 10, 2012)

Great question IMO, I'm new to sausage making and look forward to the answers here!


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## slownlow (Feb 10, 2012)

> [h3]Water Binders[/h3]
> Soy protein powders are added at around 2% as the larger amounts will affect the taste and flavor of the product. They bind water extremely well and cover fat particles with fine emulsion. This prevents fats from lumping together. Their ability to produce gel contributes to the increased firmness of the product. The sausage will be juicier, plumper and with less shrivelling but the amount of added soy protein concentrate should not exceed 3% otherwise it may impart a “beany” flavor to the product.
> *Soy protein isolate*  is a natural product that contains at least 90% protein and no other ingredients. Soy protein isolate is stronger and costlier of the two and can bind 5 parts of water.
> *Soy protein concentrate*, available from most online distributors of sausage making supplies is a natural product that contains 70% protein plus other ingredients, for example, ash and some fibres. It binds 4 parts of water and it improves the texture of the sausage.
> ...


great read, check out this whole website when you get a chance:

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/additives


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## DanMcG (Feb 10, 2012)

You have it correct Val, they help retain liquid's that would otherwise be lost during the long smoke process


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## couger78 (Feb 10, 2012)

Re: nonfat dry milk powder

The store-box product found in boxes in most supermarket aisles is quite a bit coarser in texture than the 'powder' one can order from several sausage-making vendors. In order to replicate the finer texture of the latter, I put the coarser NFDM into my processor and, after a few 'bursts,' the resulting texture is quite similar to the finer powdered product. I then store it in an air-tight container.

-Kevin


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## BGKYSmoker (Feb 10, 2012)

Many types of binders out there.

SPC

Soy powder

rice flour

buckwheat flour (found in mkts, health food in clear package)

whey powder (un flavored)

knox gelatin  clear

karo clear

cory syrup solids

fat trim from beef or pork


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## old poi dog (Feb 10, 2012)

SmokinHusker, Josh, DanMcG, Kevin, and Nepas,

Ahh..Haa...Thank you my friends!  I will get some of that NFDM at the grocer's and pulse it in my food processor. So according to the read above, for 5 lbs of meat that is roughly 2.25 kilograms, I should add no more than 67.5 grams of nonfat dry milk. 

Thanks once more friends....


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## big casino (Feb 10, 2012)

Old poi dog said:


> SmokinHusker, Josh, DanMcG, Kevin, and Nepas,
> 
> Ahh..Haa...Thank you my friends!  I will get some of that NFDM at the grocer's and pulse it in my food processor. So according to the read above, for 5 lbs of meat that is roughly 2.25 kilograms, I should add no more than 67.5 grams of nonfat dry milk.
> 
> Thanks once more friends....




The finer NFDM for sausage making  is different than the stuff for making milk, not that it won't, work but the binding properties may not be the same, personally I like to use the soy protein as it is just plain better for you


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## DanMcG (Feb 10, 2012)

I use a lot of store bought NFDM cause I'm always running out of the fancy sausage shop stuff. it works for me, but never have done a side by side comparison


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## big casino (Feb 10, 2012)

Classification

Typical Processing Treatment

Undenatured Whey Protein Nitrogen* (mg/g)

Recommended Applications

Low-heat

Cumulative heat treatment of milk not more than 70ºC for 2 minutes

> 6.00

Fluid milk fortification, cottage cheese, cultured skim milk, starter culture, chocolate dairy drinks, ice cream

Medium-heat

Cumulative heat treatment of 70 -78ºC for 20 minutes

1.51 - 5.99

Prepared mixes, ice cream, confectionery, meat products

High-heat

Cumulative heat treatment of 88ºC for 30 minutes

< 1.50

Bakery, meat products, ice cream, prepared mixes


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## big casino (Feb 10, 2012)

DanMcG said:


> I use a lot of store bought NFDM cause I'm always running out of the fancy sausage shop stuff. it works for me, but never have done a side by side comparison




I have used it too Dan but I honestly don't think it works as well, here is a link I got the above info from

http://www.usdec.org/Products/content.cfm?ItemNumber=82654


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## DanMcG (Feb 10, 2012)

I never really studied it to much Harry, but I think it just comes down to proteins binding the water and fats. I'm sure the made for binding NFDM works better but how much better? One of us needs to do the side by side test. (not me 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





 )

Thanks for the link.


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## venture (Feb 10, 2012)

I use the soy protein concentrate.  The milk solids are not that much cheaper, are they? Although more readily available for many?

I would be interested to know the difference?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## big casino (Feb 10, 2012)

DanMcG said:


> I never really studied it to much Harry, but I think it just comes down to proteins binding the water and fats. I'm sure the made for binding NFDM works better but how much better? One of us needs to do the side by side test. (not me
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well I just bought a big bucket full of the NFDM from sausage maker so I probably wont  be trying it any time soon..

 Poi Dog if you add your ingredients for your sausage to water b4 you mix it in you don't have to  pulverize the NFDM it should dissolve in the water


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## sprky (Feb 10, 2012)

Interesting info here. I too would like too know. Sounds like someone needs to do some experimenting, and post up the results. I would do it but I am not set up to do sausage yet.


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## DanMcG (Feb 11, 2012)

I guess not all dried milk is created equal.. while looking for what the sausage maker suppliers NFDM had for protein percentage I happened across a manufactures site that offers dried milk products up to 85%

http://www.hoogwegtus.com/en/products/milk-products/milk-protein-concentrate-85/

I have used both store bought and Butchers & Packers product and don't remember any difference in the finished product, but I wasn't looking for any either so I may have missed it.

One thing that's different about the product is B&P's is ground ultra fine (like cornstarch ) where as store bought is flakes the size of kosher salt. But like Harry (Big Casino) said if you dissolve it in your liquid first size wouldn't matter.







 sort of :)


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## hoity toit (Feb 11, 2012)

I use non fat dry milk and mix all my seasonings with it in blender with some water and the Cure #1. Let it sit for 30 mins or so and then add to my meat and stuff right away. Has always worked for me.


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## bhntr (May 15, 2015)

Hi Slownlow, (or anyone else that may know)

Do you think there would be a problem in using whole powdered milk instead of the ingredient "Non Fat Powd Milk" Seems like all the recipes call for NonFat and none ever say just powd milk... Just why the nonfat?

Leo


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## bhntr (May 15, 2015)

Hey Big Casino,

I currently have whole powdered milk (and not NFDM as what is called for in all these recipes) Does the whole milk not work in fermented sausages like salami of is it because NFDM is more available than W Milk?

Leo


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## bhntr (May 15, 2015)

Ever use whole powdered milk?


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## rgautheir20420 (May 15, 2015)

I wouldn't use any sort of moisture retention ingredient in making salami. The point is to dry it out, not maintain moisture. Just my .02 cents.


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## reinhard (May 15, 2015)

There is a great thread here in the forum on this.  Just scroll down a few threads.  Called "Calling All Sausage Makers...Sausage Binders.  Why we use them and why we dont. Your thoughts"   Reinhard


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## chopsaw (May 16, 2015)

Carnation sells a NFDM powder that is a fine texture . Had good results with it and can buy it off the shelf in my area when needed , but I use the soy protein isolate .


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## cajun boy (May 16, 2015)

You can also use mustard powder in addition to your spc it will also add flavor


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