# confused about nitrites/nitrates prague salt #1 or 2 for curing



## expat smoker

My head is spinning with all the different info I'm reading and I have to admit that I am confused about all the contradictory information on curing meat for smoking.  some say 'always use prague salt, some don't even mention it, and I have a friend , who is a locally famous 'meisterbrief' [German certified meat processor] who told me simply add 5 grams of nitrate to 1 kilo of salt [less than .5%?] and no problem.
I look at the ingredients on Prague Pink powder and it is simply 6.75% nitrates and the other 93.25% is salt.
Then I hear that unless I use prague salt, then I'm flirting with disaster.  
Now if Prague salt is that simple, then why can't I make it myself with the chems that I can get at a local chemical supply shop??  easy to mix and I usually put the dry cure mix in the blender to get the lumps out of the salt and in the hopes that it mixes the salt/sugar/nitrates.
This has probably been discussed many times before, but my searching hasn't found it, so please forgive me for asking and please enlighten me about this simple basic part of curing.

My last few attempts with a dry cure that ends up being wet after a day in the fridge were 1k salt, 1k brown sugar, 5 grams sodium nitrate, and my secret that I'll share.......black pepper, cloves and zest of orange and all my family and friends approved [and are still alive].
Thanks in advance


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## fpnmf

Let us know how the mixing works out for you...

I do things the easy way..I buy it already made...

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts


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## diggingdogfarm

What exactly are you trying to cure and for how long?
Where are you located?



~Martin


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## expat smoker

Location ...Thailand, therefore hard to get western items and have to DIY with the things that you take for granted.

Just started curing and have graduated to smoking a few weeks ago....curing mostly pork belly bacon and occasionally chicken.


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## diggingdogfarm

Can you get food-grade sodium nitrate and/or sodium nitrite?


~Martin


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## expat smoker

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Can you get food-grade sodium nitrate and/or sodium nitrite?
> 
> 
> ~Martin


Is there much of a difference??


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## diggingdogfarm

Yes, there's a big difference.
The course of action you can take is going to depend on what's available to you, it's a waste of time to babble about something that's irrelevant.
I'd look into it and see if you can get either or both in food grade form, from trusted supplier!


~Martin


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## expat smoker

Thanks Martin for your concern and input.   I called the friend that is giving me the chem and asked him that question and his reply was that he wasn't exactly sure if it was 'food grade' or not, but has been using it for a few years and several smokes with no problems.  Made me feel like I was looking a gift horse in the mouth.

The reality is that this may be the only game in town, as the hardest thing about living in Thailand is sourcing simple things.

I'll google around and try to find the difference between food grade and non food grade nitrates/nitrites......unless anyone out there can tell me how to identify and what the ill effects might be.  Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm new at this and trying to source in a country that speaks little English and will tell you 'yes it is food grade' if you ask.......still a nice place to retire.

Jack


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## DanMcG

What part of Thailand are you in Jack?


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## expat smoker

Up north in the ricefields outside of Chiang Mai.....are you in the land of smiles??


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## expat smoker

Just spent the whole hot day in the city going to 3 chemical supply shops as well as a restaurant supply shop and finally found a supplier of nitrites and nitrates and she says 'food grade' and confirmed by my sausage maker friend.  So, now what do I do?? I've heard that the standard over here is 5 grams of nitrite to 1 kilo of salt, which is far from the 67.5 grams of nitrite to 1 kilo to make a mix similar to pink salt.  Someone please inform me asap because I just bought 3 kilos of beautiful pork belly for bacon and I'm hot to smoke.....

PS Dan, I just sent a pm off to 'Thailandphil' and will try to catch the chat tomorrow morning......thanks.


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## black

z


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## pops6927

I posted this before to your question about making your own curing salts:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/making-your-own-curing-salts

In the first recipe it is simply sodium nitrite and salt, 1 oz. to 1 lb., mix thoroughly.

This is used for short - time curing, under 30-45 days, for hams, bacons, cured sausages for smoking and cooking.

This is equivalent to Cure #1.  Cure #1, Instacure, Prague Powder no. 1,  etc., a mixture of 93.75% salt and 6.25% sodium nitrite - they are all the same. 

The second recipe is for long - cure sausages that require fermenting instead of cooking, cured and dried for months.  This is salt, sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate; the nitrate breaks down over a longer period of time into sodium nitrite for months of curing action.  The sausages, such as salami, pepperoni, etc. is smoked and dried for months, reducing moisture vs. hot-temp cooking.  It takes special equipment, curing chamber controlling the humidity and temperature precisely, allowing a mold to form, etc. to be successful at this type of curing.

This is equivalent to Cure #2.

The third recipe is for a curing mix like Morton's Sugar Cure with added salts and sugars.

What you want is Cure #1 for curing hams and bacons and is relatively easy to make once you've located a source of food grade nitrite.  No nitrate is needed as it takes longer cure times - months - for it to break down and be effective.


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## BGKYSmoker

CURES - Cures are used in sausage products for color and flavor development as well as retarding the development of bacteria in
the low temperature environment of smoked meats.
Salt and sugar both cure meat by osmosis. In addition to drawing the water from the food, they dehydrate and kill the bacteria that make food spoil. In general, though, use of the word "cure" refers to processing the meat with either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate.
The primary and most important reason to use cures is to prevent BOTULISM POISONING (Food poisoning). It is very important that any kind of meat or sausage that will be cooked and smoked at low temperature be cured. To trigger botulism poisoning, the requirements are quite simple - lack of oxygen, the presence of moisture, and temperatures in range of 40-140° F. When smoking meats, the heat and smoke eliminates the oxygen. The meats have moisture and are traditionally smoked and cooked in the low ranges of 90 to 185° F. As you can see, these are ideal conditions for food poisoning if you don't use cures. There are two types of commercially used cures.

Prague Powder #1
Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1 part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.

Prague Powder #2
Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.)
It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly.
Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat.
When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.


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## black

> Originally Posted by *S2K9K*  [h3]edited post[/h3]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S2K9K
> Yesterday at 8:39 pm
> 
> Black,
> I just wanted to let you know I had to edit one of your posts and delete a link. As per @TulsaJeff and our User Guidelines, offsite links are not permitted to be posted on this forum.
> Here is a link to the edited post:
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/139323/stx-turboforce-3000-series-grinder#post_1074283
> Thank You for understanding,
> Moderator Team


That's OK, edit my posts as you like


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## diggingdogfarm

FWIW, here are the limits set forth by the gods at the USDA as far a *commercial *curing goes.













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__ diggingdogfarm
__ Feb 12, 2013


















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__ diggingdogfarm
__ Feb 12, 2013








~Martin


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## expat smoker

OK, got it sorted out for now.  I connected thru this forum with 'Thailandphil', who coincidentally lives close to me and he kindly offered me a bag with enough cure for a couple of months at the rate that I am using it now.  In the mean time, I finally located a company down south in Thailand that sells an Australian version of pink salt at a reasonable cost and they will airmail it to me.....when they have it in stock next week. 

Thanks for all your input and patience with my panic newbie questions.

All4now

Jack


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## DanMcG

Cool Jack....liking forward to your pic's of cured stuff!
 BTW Phil is a heck of a nice guy.


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## expat smoker

yea, he's a good guy and set me straight on a few things and we had a lot in common.Thanks for the intro Dan.


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## black

z


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## bladebuilder

Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.

Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?


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## daveomak

Bladebuilder said:


> Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.
> 
> Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?




Re-read the entire thread....  it is explained in about 3 different ways....  all the answers are NO....  they are not interchangeable.....   below is an explanation of how different cures are used....

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/prague-powder-1-vs-prague-powder-2


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## zalbar

Bladebuilder said:


> Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.
> 
> Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?


NO. Nitrates are transformed over time to nitrites so act as a sort of time release cure in longer cured products such as sausage, hams, etc. For quick cured items like bacon, pastrami, etc you'll want the nitrite stuff.


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## bladebuilder

Thanks guys! Now a dumb question. Both of the Prague powders have 6.25% Nitrates, the #2 has added nitrates. so in the short term, the nitrates in both are doing the same job are they not? ( same percentage in both ) So over time, if I am understanding correctly, the nitrates convert to nitrites and I believe the term is "gas off". So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!

Thanks in advance.


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## daveomak

Bladebuilder said:


> Thanks guys! Now a dumb question. Both of the Prague powders have 6.25% Nitrates, the #2 has added nitrates. so in the short term, the nitrates in both are doing the same job are they not? ( same percentage in both ) So over time, if I am understanding correctly, the nitrates convert to nitrites and I believe the term is "gas off". So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Bladebuilder.....   This has been explained several times.....   one more in the event you just don't get it....  The recommendations are not mine.. the recommendations are from "Food Scientist Experts"....  

We are not the food police....  Do as you wish.... just don't feed the food you cure to children, the elderly, your family or friends....   eat it all by your lonesome....


Prague Powder #2
 Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.)
 It is primarily used in dry-curing *Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. *This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly.
 Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat.
 When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.


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## bladebuilder

"Bladebuilder..... This has been explained several times..... one more in the event you just don't get it.... The recommendations are not mine.."

Dave I get the process, I get the reason, I understand that they don't switch in uses.

My question was "So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!"

The reason I asked this way, was to help me understand the process of what each type of cure does with the meat. I understand sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. I am asking what the risk is. As I mentioned both products have 6.25% Nitrites. #2 has .64% nitrate. The "long cure" additive. Again my question,  what is the risk? I am asking because I don't know, not because I don't get it. Obviously after a month or more, the meat is safe to eat. I am asking, and not because I am planning to eat some early, or feed it to children or elderly, but for the knowledge of why early is bad, other than because the "Food Scientist Experts" say so. No where did I say I intended to eat any. So nitrates are bad, nitrites are good? Is the conversion from one to the other complete in the curing process? Is there residual in the meats that never convert?

I am simply asking, so I know what the risks are. All I can find on the web is nitrates/nitrites have possible links to cancer, digestive tract issues, blood pressure etc. I can see there is a difference in the two powders, and understand their place. Also web searches say that commercially prepared meats with nitrites/nitrates still have the chemicals in them.

I apologize for the rant. I am new here, and want to learn. Not be treated like someone who cant grasp a process or concept, nor be told it is because it is. I don't put my finger in a light socket because I was told not to, I don't because I understand the consequences of the action, because I was informed.


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## bladebuilder

Dave I apologize, I probably shouldn't have access to a keyboard when I tired, and before I have eaten. I didn't mean to come off as a jackass. I believe I took your comments to personally.


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## daveomak

Apology not needed.....  but accepted....


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## foamheart

LOL... its that HOT PINK text! Does it every time....LOL


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## cdn offroader

Not trying to add to the confusion here, but to play the devils advocate, an often discussed point here on the forum is that most green vegetables contain large percentages of nitrates compared to a cured meat product. We eat them raw/cooked all the time. MTQ contains nitrate which many peole here use regularly to cure meats for normal lengths of time(as a replacement for cure #1) If i'm not mistaken, the primary reason nitrates(cure #2) are not recomended for shorter periods of time is because they convert more easily to nitrosamines when cooking at high heat, hence the ban on using nitrate on commercial bacon. If the cure #2 is added to the meat in the appropriate ratios, there "should" be no problems consuming it. 

I am not advocating this as the correct practice, nor trying to muddy the waters, but just trying to clarify info for the OP. Obviously, if anything in this post is incorrect, let me know and I'll correct it.

For more good info, see this paper about nitrites in meats from the U of Minnesota

http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/50792/1/00974.pdf


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## foamheart

Every one has their favorite, this is the one that did it for me. A short and sweet explaination for country boys.

*http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts*


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## daveomak

CDN offroader said:


> Not trying to add to the confusion here, but to play the devils advocate, an often discussed point here on the forum is that most green vegetables contain large percentages of nitrates compared to a cured meat product. We eat them raw/cooked all the time. MTQ contains nitrate which many peole here use regularly to cure meats for normal lengths of time(as a replacement for cure #1) If i'm not mistaken, the primary reason nitrates(cure #2) are not recomended for shorter periods of time is because they convert more easily to nitrosamines when cooking at high heat, hence the ban on using nitrate on commercial bacon. *If the cure #2 is added to the meat in the appropriate ratios, there "should" be no problems consuming it.
> *
> I am not advocating this as the correct practice, nor trying to muddy the waters, but just trying to clarify info for the OP. Obviously, if anything in this post is incorrect, let me know and I'll correct it.
> 
> For more good info, see this paper about nitrites in meats from the U of Minnesota
> 
> http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/50792/1/00974.pdf


 *This article is 22 years old.....
*

CDN, morning....   On this forum, all laws, rules, suggestions etc., made by the USDA, FDA etc. are the guidelines this forum adheres to....   We don't follow rules made in Canada, England, United Kingdom, or any other nation.....   That maintains a level playing field and "puts an end" to confusing practices....
Soooooo, in the future, please only recommend what the  United States food regulatory agencies recommend....   It will save confusing folks that read these posts and threads.....
You can choose you own path and recipes, when it comes to curing....   we are not the food police...  Please do not suggest to others, unaccepted methods or uses of curing agents...


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## cdn offroader

Sorry Dave, forgot my disclaimer, Cure #2 should be fine to use for short term curing recipes other than bacon(Nitrates not allowed for any form of curing bacon, FSIS handbook pg 28), but cure #1 is ideal. 

MTQ has nitrite and nitrate(in equal parts) and is used regularly by members of this forum. Cure #2 has a lower ratio of nitrate to nitrite. Logic dictates that it must be safe to use cure #2 vs MTQ if the ratios are correct(except for bacon).

Unless you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise. None of the links/post on the forum have an actual fact that says cure #2 can't be used to replace cure #1(except for bacon), only the other way around.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

the info in the article is accurate, the age is irrelevant.


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## daveomak

CDN offroader said:


> Sorry Dave, forgot my disclaimer,
> 
> *Cure #2 should be fine to use for short term curing recipes other than bacon(Nitrates not allowed for any form of curing bacon, FSIS handbook pg 28), but cure #1 is ideal.
> *
> 
> MTQ has nitrite and nitrate(in equal parts) and is used regularly by members of this forum. Cure #2 has a lower ratio of nitrate to nitrite. Logic dictates that it must be safe to use cure #2 vs MTQ if the ratios are correct(except for bacon).
> 
> Unless you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise. None of the links/post on the forum have an actual fact that says cure #2 can't be used to replace cure #1(except for bacon), only the other way around.
> 
> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf
> 
> the info in the article is accurate, the age is irrelevant.




++++++++++++++++

I hate it when members demand to filibuster.... Your argument is irrelevant...   the question about using Cure #2 was 
*Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?/B]** 
AND Morton's Tender Quick is not used in commercial curing...    

I do not recommend Morton's Tender Quick for curing any meats, due to the guidelines of the owner of the forum....   like I have said many times... You do not have to follow the rules of the forum for your own curing needs...  Don't try to convince others of your particular "Non Approved" methods....


Now....  Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article....   to back up your irrelevant argument....  

Below is a quote from the FSIS handbook....   The majority of our members are not in a position to safely and successfully use nitrate for short term curing...  If you are "qualified' to use nitrate for short term curing, by all means use it...  Consider the audience when you make statements that supersede the foundation of this forum, that the owner has set...

FSIS Handbook page 31..

NITRATE USED IN CURED COMMINUTED, PICKLED, AND DRY PRODUCTS
Introduction
Nitrate is used as a source of nitrite. If nitrate is used as the curing agent, the conversion
(reduction) of nitrate to nitrite by bacteria in the meat or poultry is a necessary step in the
development of the cured color. The amount of nitrate that is reduced to nitrite is dependent
upon the numbers of nitrate-reducing bacteria and several environmental conditions such as
temperature, moisture content, salt content, and pH. Hence, the conversion rate and subsequent
amount of nitrite, that is formed, is difficult to control. Similarly, the further reduction of nitrite to
nitric oxide, which reacts with myoglobin (muscle pigment) to produce the cured color, is also
affected by the same environmental conditions. If nitrite is used as the curing agent, there is no
need for the nitrate reduction step, and the development of the cured color is much more rapid.
The poor control associated with the reduction of nitrate to nitrite, coupled with the fact that
most processors today demand faster curing methods, has lead to the diminished use of nitrate in
meat and poultry products.
Calculations for nitrate are the same as those for nitrite described on pages 11 through 27.
Different limits apply, depending upon the curing method used, and are illustrated in Tables I (see
page 7) and II (see page 12).*


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## daveomak

Here is one additional source.....    

http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/lit_rev/cure_smoke_pres.html



6.2.3. Curing Compounds

Purchase commercially prepared cure mixes and follow instructions carefully (PHS/FDA 2001) or blend cure mixes carefully at home using an accurate scale. 

Nitrate. Use cure mixtures that contain nitrate (e.g., Prague Powder 2, Insta-Cure 2) for dry-cured products that are not to be cooked, smoked, or refrigerated (PHS/FDA 2001). Dry cure using 3.5 oz. nitrate per 100 lbs. meat maximum or wet cure at a maximum of 700 ppm nitrates (9 CFR Cpt 3. 318.7(c)(4), 381.147(d)(4)).

Nitrite. Use cure mixtures that contain nitrite (e.g., Prague Powder 1, Insta-Cure 1) for all meats that require cooking, smoking, or canning (PHS/FDA 2001). Dry cure using 1 oz. nitrite per 100 lbs. meat maximum. For sausages use ¼ oz. per 100 lbs. (Reynolds and Schuler 1982). A 120 ppm concentration is usually sufficient and is the maximum allowed in bacon (PHS/FDA 2001). 

Nitrites are toxic if used in quantities higher than recommended; therefore caution should be used in their storage and use (PHS/FDA 2001). About 1 g or 14mg/kg body weight sodium nitrite is a lethal dose to an adult human (USDA FSIS 1997b). Mistakenly using sodium nitrite instead of NaCl in typical curing recipes can lead to a lethal dose of nitrite in the incorrectly cured product (Borchert and Cassens 1998). For this reason it is safer to purchase and use curing mixtures rather than pure nitrites (saltpeter).


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## cdn offroader

> Posted by *DaveOmak*
> 
> 
> *Morton's Tender Quick has Nitrate and Nitrite in it..... It is to be used for curing meats and not as a seasoning....  *
> 
> *To reduce the salt, use cure #1*
> 
> There has been some confusion, on this forum, about the proper use of Morton's Tender Quick...  Dave
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> *http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts*
> 
> NOTE: Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, or should either be used as a seasoning. These two premixes are essentially the same, and can be used interchangeably. Both are considered fast cures. The difference between the two is that the Sugar Cure has added dextrose and a packet of spice mix. They both contain a combination of high grade salt, sugar, plus both sodium nitrate (.5%) and sodium nitrite (.5%).
> 
> Like cure #1, these premix cures have been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, fish and sausage that require short curing times, and will be fully cooked. They are NOT interchangeable with cure #1; they measure differently. Unlike cure #1, you don't use any additional salt when making sausage.
> 
> *NOTE:*  Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, and the Sugar cures are not seasonings. These are cures that only should be used in recipes calling for curing meat fish, and poultry. They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure.


Here, I'll quote one of your responses to a jerky question, If MTQ can be used in a recipe in place of cure #1, surely cure #2, which has the same ingredients, in different ratios, could be used as well. Pretty simple logic, sorry it offends you so much. All I wanted to know is if I was incorrect, that's why we have forums like this.

The OP simply got me curious, browsing the site shows lots of recipes using MTQ as an ingredient, no moderator has deleted them or said anything about them, so I have to conclude the MTQ is not a banned ingredient on this site. If I am incorrect, could a moderator please say something?

Would I do it? No

Did I recommend doing it? No

Not sure where the jab about Canada came from, I never said that it was an a practice in Canada, or GB.

Anyways got your opinions on this issue, so thanks for that

Have a nice day


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## atomicsmoke

CDN offroader said:


> Would I do it? No
> Did I recommend doing it? No
> Not sure where the jab about Canada came from, I never said that it was an a practice in Canada, or GB.


LOL. 
That's Dave ...telling those pesky Canadian socialists.


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## daveomak

*Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?*


The answer is no....  the 2 cures are NOT interchangeable....  


Now.... Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article.... to back up your irrelevant argument....

If you don't provide the link to the article, your credibility is OUT THE WINDOW.....


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## cdn offroader

DaveOmak said:


> *Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?*
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is no....  the 2 cures are NOT interchangeable....
> 
> 
> 
> Now.... Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article.... to back up your irrelevant argument....
> 
> 
> If you don't provide the link to the article, your credibility is OUT THE WINDOW.....



Dave the only one arguing here is you. I asked a question based on the Bacon/Jerky question.

Rather than just say "No, because Dave Omak says so" try actually answering the question. You may get less "filibustering"

Bacon, NO    "Nitrate is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon." FSIS handbook,pg 28 - very clear direction

Jerky, unsure      I am personally unable to locate any information that says cure #2/nitrate cannot be used in jerky. If you have a reference that says that, by all means share it. Thats why I asked.

Cure #2 is unnecessary for jerky, but the sodium nitrite in it would cure the jerky, so specifically I am asking would the sodium nitrate remain as a residual product, or would it break down under the heating process for the jerky? If not, would the remaining residual nitrate be above the max allowable limits?

*This is a purely speculative question and is not intended to mislead anyone or encourage unsafe practices.  When in doubt, stick with known curing practices and recipes.


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## bladebuilder

This question is at the heart of what I asked as well. If #2 is used, what happens to the nitrate. Does hot smoking/drying assist in the nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide conversion. Is it safe? Does it need to sit for a month after smoking?  How does the heat, rapid drying associated with say oven/de-hydrator processing affect the nitrate? Has the lack of moisture put a halt to the nitrate-nitrite conversion? 

Again, I am trying to learn, not fuel an argument, or offer unsafe process.


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## daveomak

Bladebuilder said:


> This question is at the heart of what I asked as well. If #2 is used, what happens to the nitrate. Does hot smoking/drying assist in the nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide conversion. Is it safe? Does it need to sit for a month after smoking?  How does the heat, rapid drying associated with say oven/de-hydrator processing affect the nitrate? Has the lack of moisture put a halt to the nitrate-nitrite conversion?
> 
> Again, I am trying to learn, not fuel an argument, or offer unsafe process.




I have some idea of the nitrate break down process... but not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.. There are folks that get paid to analyze chemical reactions and the side effects of such break downs and effects on the human body... I rely on the experts.... chemists so to speak.... and I follow their advice....

 Discussing the "theoretical" application of chemicals that are "not allowed" to be applied to food, in my opinion, is moot...


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## bladebuilder

I appreciate that answer. I will keep researching.


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## daveomak

[quote name="CDN offroader" 

Rather than just say "No, because Dave Omak says so" try actually answering the question. You may get less "filibustering"

Bacon, NO    "Nitrate is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon." FSIS handbook,pg 28 - very clear direction

Jerky, unsure      I am personally unable to locate any information that says cure #2/nitrate cannot be used in jerky. If you have a reference that says that, by all means share it. Thats why I asked.

Cure #2 is unnecessary for jerky, but the sodium nitrite in it would cure the jerky, so specifically I am asking would the sodium nitrate remain as a residual product, or would it break down under the heating process for the jerky? If not, would the remaining residual nitrate be above the max allowable limits?

*This is a purely speculative question and is not intended to mislead anyone or encourage unsafe practices.  When in doubt, stick with known curing practices and recipes.[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++

For all practical interpretation, jerky is cooked...   If you wanted to "dry cure/age" jerky for months, like some meat products that cure #2 is designed for, then by all means, use cure #2 on your jerky...  Additional salt will be necessary to approx. 4%, (if I remember correctly)...   initially cure in a refer until the initial chemical reaction has taken place...  then hang to dry at approx. 48 degrees F for months to allow the nitrate to combine with bacteria that turns/converts the nitrate to nitrite...   _That is speculation _based on making country hams, prosciutto etc. that are not intended to be heat cooked, but eaten chemically cooked so to speak...  I have not seen a recipe that allows for cure #2 to be used to make jerky... 

It is not ME saying that stuff....  It is someone who gets paid to do analytical studies... and the effects of chemical breakdowns on the human body, to determine the health safety risks..

Prague Powder #2
 Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.)
_It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. _This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly.
 Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat.
 When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.


NITRATE USED IN CURED COMMINUTED, PICKLED, AND DRY PRODUCTS
 Introduction
 Nitrate is used as a source of nitrite. If nitrate is used as the curing agent, the conversion
 (reduction) of nitrate to nitrite by bacteria in the meat or poultry is a necessary step in the
 development of the cured color. The amount of nitrate that is reduced to nitrite is dependent
 upon the numbers of nitrate-reducing bacteria and several environmental conditions such as
 temperature, moisture content, salt content, and pH. Hence, the conversion rate and subsequent
 amount of nitrite, that is formed, is difficult to control. Similarly, the further reduction of nitrite to
 nitric oxide, which reacts with myoglobin (muscle pigment) to produce the cured color, is also
 affected by the same environmental conditions. If nitrite is used as the curing agent, there is no
 need for the nitrate reduction step, and the development of the cured color is much more rapid.
 The poor control associated with the reduction of nitrate to nitrite, coupled with the fact that
 most processors today demand faster curing methods, has lead to the diminished use of nitrate in
 meat and poultry products.


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## eyendall

For me, more heat than light  so far in these exchanges. Let's see if I understand the salt-sodium nitrite combinations in wet and dry curing, and the role if any of Prague powder.

1. If I have both salt and sodium nitrite then there is no need for Prague powder.  Correct?

2. For a dry cure mixture, the amount of nitrite is related to the weight of the meat not the amount of salt. Correct?

3. For a wet cure brine the ratio of salt to nitrate should be 15:1 i.e. the amount of nitrite is related to the amount of salt: one pound of mixture would have 15 oz salt and 1 oz of nitrite.  Correct? (This 15:1 ratio is much easier to apply then wrestling with 93.75% and 6.25%).

The brine recipe which follows comes from a post on this forum:

"real simple curing brine:

 for every 1 gallon of water, add:

1/3 - 1 cup sea salt (depending if you're on a lo-salt diet)

1 cup granulated sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji]

1 cup brown sugar or Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] brown sugar mix

1 tbsp cure no. 1 pink salt

stir thoroughly until clear amber color, pour over meat, inject if necessary to cure from inside-out as well as outside-in

weight down with a partially filled 1 qt or 1 gal. ziploc bag or bags to keep meat immersed"

The amount of salt recommended for the brine varies from 1/3 cup to 3/3 cup yet the amount of Prague powder remains the same-1 tbs- with the 1/3 cup of salt having three times the concentration of sodium nitrite as  the salt in the full cup. This doesn't make sense to me. For this recipe wouldn't it make more sense to use all Prague powder? That way the ratio of salt to sodium nitrate would be the same whether using 1/3 cup or a full cup.

And how much does one tbs of Prague powder weigh and how much sodium nitrite would it contain?

Am I missing something?


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## daveomak

eyendall, evening......  where are you from that you add pure nitrite to food....   

anyway, you are correct.    _ If I have both salt and sodium nitrite then there is no need for Prague powder.  Correct?_  Prague Powder is salt and nitrite...


About your other questions....  as a general rule, salt, sugar and nitrite are added to meats to facilitate a curing process...    salt and sugar are hygroscopic and are the engines behind the "osmotic" process of equilibrium...  stuff in, stuff out until it is equalized....   In the "fresh food/meat" curing process, we add salt and sugar at palatable levels....   nitrite as cure #1, Prague Powder, Pink Salt is added at a rate consistent with the FDA curing section...   different meats require different levels of nitrite as do different curing processes...   It's complicated..     
So, about the ratio of salt to nitrite totally depends on the curing process and meats being cured....  salt and sugar are personal taste...  As home curing fanatics, we aren't governed by the government....   we try to strictly adhere to safe food practices when it come to pathogens... botulism, trich, salmonella etc.


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## eyendall

Hi Dave

Thanks for your response.

To answer your question I am in Canada. It puzzles me because you too add sodium nitrite to food but do so through the medium of Prague powder. Prague powder is for those who lack confidence in their math skills and are prepared to pay more for a little security and convenience. Food grade sodium nitrite is is cheap and readily available in the US: try Amazon for instance. In the end, sodium nitrite is sodium nitrite regardless of the source and the important thing is to keep the proportions of salt and nitrite at 15:1. That will take care of botulism.


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## daveomak

eyendall said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> To answer your question I am in Canada. It puzzles me because you too add sodium nitrite to food but do so through the medium of Prague powder. Prague powder is for those who lack confidence in their math skills and are prepared to pay more for a little security and convenience. Food grade sodium nitrite is is cheap and readily available in the US: try Amazon for instance. In the end, sodium nitrite is sodium nitrite regardless of the source and the important thing is to keep the proportions of salt and nitrite at 15:1. That will take care of botulism.




The problem arises when curing say 5#'s of pork sausage and getting ready for stuffing into casing... as an example.....  

How do you accurately add 0.35 grams of nitrite and get it homogeneous throughout the meat...   

Most, if not all home sausage makers, do not have the equipment to do that.....   

Are you a professional meat shop or have a meat market etc...  

And to clarify an important point....    

The owner of this forum wishes all recipes posted comply with the US FDA .....   simplifies stuff for our readers...


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## eyendall

"3. For a wet cure brine the ratio of salt to nitrate should be 15:1 i.e. the amount of nitrite is related to the amount of salt: one pound of mixture would have 15 oz salt and 1 oz of nitrite.  Correct? (This 15:1 ratio is much easier to apply then wrestling with 93.75% and 6.25%)."

I said this in an post above and realise that it is incorrect. The ratio of 93.75% salt to 6.25% sodium nitrate is actually the formula for prague powder. You can make your own. You would add this prague powder mixture to your salt which obviously would mean using much, much less sodium nitrite than what I mistakenly assumed above..

I would still like to know how much sodium nitrite is needed per !lb meat for both wet and dry cures, rather than relying on someone else's recipe.

The USDA maximum of 200 ppm in commercially sold cured meats doesn't help me with this calculation. Anyone?


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## bladebuilder

Hi, for the ratio requested, figuring the amount is a simple cross multiplication formula, where the required PPM over 1000000 is equal to the required nitrate over grams of product(meat) for example 200/1000000=x/453.592 (one pound expressed in grams) X= 0.9072 grams. 

Measuring this accurately is a challenge. This is why, if I have it understood correctly, a pre mix such as Prague is used. Because nitrites are not to be underestimated or used carelessly, accurately mixing the nitrate with salt, then using this product, reduces any error in measuring the nitrite by 1/15, thus increasing your safety in using it.

In the above formula, replace 200 by the PPM you require, and 453.592 by the actual weight of product to be cured.

Somebody correct me if I am out to lunch.


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## ricemania

If your in Thailand...Celery juice works as a great substitute..for Pink Salt


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## daveomak

Quote from The Sausage Maker..

Celery Juice Powder (CJP) contains naturally occurring nitrites and nitrates (which breakdown to nitrites with the help of bacteria native in meat itself). CJP is now commonly being used for giving sausages and meats a cured appearance and taste without the use of synthetic sodium nitrite/nitrate. There is no standardized, USDA recommended curing time for specific amounts of CJP for consistent curing action so products using vegetable based nitrites/nitrates (such as CJP) must be cooked prior to consumption. CJP may clump/harden during transit in the Summer months, it is not spoiled and has not lost effectiveness, simply break up and/or use as weight measure instead of volume if this occurs to your CJP order. 

Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat. 

1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp. 

For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder

*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".  
**The use of natural products, such as Celery Juice Powder, which contain nitrates are NOT recommended for making bacon.


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## eyendall

Bladebuilder said:


> Hi, for the ratio requested, figuring the amount is a simple cross multiplication formula, where the required PPM over 1000000 is equal to the required nitrate over grams of product(meat) for example 200/1000000=x/453.592 (one pound expressed in grams) X= 0.9072 grams.
> 
> Measuring this accurately is a challenge. This is why, if I have it understood correctly, a pre mix such as Prague is used. Because nitrites are not to be underestimated or used carelessly, accurately mixing the nitrate with salt, then using this product, reduces any error in measuring the nitrite by 1/15, thus increasing your safety in using it.
> 
> In the above formula, replace 200 by the PPM you require, and 453.592 by the actual weight of product to be cured.
> 
> Somebody correct me if I am out to lunch.


Hi Bladebuilder

Thanks for this useful formula.

I am not sure though that it provides the answer to what I am looking-for. As I understand the USDA 200ppm standard, it refers to the maximum quantity of sodium nitrite which can remain in the product after curing. So if I am curing bacon, how much sodium nitrite should be in my cure or wet in order to achieve a final result of 200pm in the finished product? In other words, is the concentration in the cure -either wet or dry-the same concentration you will get in the cured product? I can see this probably being the case with a wet cure but I don't see it for a dry cure where the mixture could be less uniform and contact with the meat variable. Am I over thinking this or misunderstanding osmosis?


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## daveomak

eyendall said:


> Hi Bladebuilder
> Thanks for this useful formula.
> I am not sure though that it provides the answer to what I am looking-for. *As I understand the USDA 200ppm standard, it refers to the maximum quantity of sodium nitrite which can remain in the product after curing*. So if I am curing bacon, how much sodium nitrite should be in my cure or wet in order to achieve a final result of 200pm in the finished product? In other words, is the concentration in the cure -either wet or dry-the same concentration you will get in the cured product? I can see this probably being the case with a wet cure but I don't see it for a dry cure where the mixture could be less uniform and contact with the meat variable. Am I over thinking this or misunderstanding osmosis?




You have misunderstood the USDA Standard.....   200 Ppm nitrite for a dry rubbed product is Maximum INGOING amount of nitrite...

When using a brine solution, the Maximum INGOING amount of nitrite is 120 Ppm skinless.....  reduce by 10% if skin is on.....


Grams of meat X 0.000120 = grams of nitrite for a 120 Ppm nitrite infusion...


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## bladebuilder

This information was kindly provided by DaveOmak, it is what I use to figure quantities. The osmosis of the nitrites in different products of different densities/absorption rates ending at a quantified value, is better left to a lab capable of determining these values. Also these values are in the "deemed safe" limits of government agencies,

200Ppm nitrite max. for a dry rub..... and 120 Ppm max. in a brine solution....

dry rub.... 1000 grams meat x 0.000200 Ppm / 0.0625 % nitrite in the cure = 3.2 grams cure per 1000 grams..

brine... 1000 grams meat + weight of water (500 grams) - 1500 grams x 0.000120 Ppm / 0.0625 % nitrite = 2.88 grams cure per 1500 grams meat and water....

Both types of cure should sit in the refer for approx. 14 days.... or longer is fine... rinse and rest in the refer... form a pellicle and cold smoke below 70 deg. F for at least 4 hours or until you get a color you like... then raise the temp, if you want it cooked, to what ever temp you want it finished at...

I would add non iodized salt at a rate of 2% and sugar at 1% for a starting point....


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## smokinnn

Sorry for starting up an old thread again but this seems like a good place for this question.

How do you incorporate Prague Salt #1 into a dry cure?  I can see it makes sense with a wet cure, but it seems like so little is used that it would not be enough to evenly spread throughout a dry cure.

Thanks!

Kevin


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## daveomak

smokinnn said:


> Sorry for starting up an old thread again but this seems like a good place for this question.
> 
> How do you incorporate Prague Salt #1 into a dry cure?  I can see it makes sense with a wet cure, but it seems like so little is used that it would not be enough to evenly spread throughout a dry cure.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kevin




As a rule, curing requires salt, sugar, spices etc. and cure #1....    Adding at least 2% salt, 1/2-1% sugar, several grams of spices and 0.30% (for a dry brine rub) +/- cure #1......     If you mix all that stuff together, you have a fair amount to distribute equally over the meat...   If you are careful this can be done safely....

Cure additions....    ~200 Ppm for a "dry brine" rub.....   ~150 Ppm in ground meats.....   ~120 Ppm for bacon in a brine/cure solution....


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## smokinnn

Thanks Dave. Do you have any good recipes for a dry cure using Prague Salt #1 that is good for smoked fish (not just cold smoked but fish that will be smoked up to ~150 internal temp) and/or turkey?  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  

It seems everything I find using Prague Salt #1 is wet brine.


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## daveomak

Pops brine/cure is used by many for turkey....   I think turkey would be difficult to dry brine...  too many cracks/crevices and bones in the inside rib cage...


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## smokinnn

That's true for turkey, I have always used a wet brine for that.  Do you prefer a wet brine for fish too?


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## daveomak

smokinnn said:


> That's true for turkey, I have always used a wet brine for that.  Do you prefer a wet brine for fish too?



Fish recipe is in a PM.....    Dave


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## motsyball

DaveOmak said:


> Quote from The Sausage Maker..
> 
> Celery Juice Powder (CJP) contains naturally occurring nitrites and nitrates (which breakdown to nitrites with the help of bacteria native in meat itself). CJP is now commonly being used for giving sausages and meats a cured appearance and taste without the use of synthetic sodium nitrite/nitrate. There is no standardized, USDA recommended curing time for specific amounts of CJP for consistent curing action so products using vegetable based nitrites/nitrates (such as CJP) must be cooked prior to consumption. CJP may clump/harden during transit in the Summer months, it is not spoiled and has not lost effectiveness, simply break up and/or use as weight measure instead of volume if this occurs to your CJP order.
> 
> Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat.
> 
> 1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp.
> 
> For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder
> 
> *The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".
> **The use of natural products, such as Celery Juice Powder, which contain nitrates are NOT recommended for making bacon.


Well with someone mentioning celery juice it adds another interesting twist to this thread.  I became a newbie to this board and to the smoking hobby when my in-laws gave me a Masterbuilt Sportsman Elite electric smoker from Cabelas this past Christmas.  Over the past few years I have tried to reduce the amount of chemicals in the food I feed my family.  In other words, I try to avoid foods that have added chemicals such as MSG, nitrates and other preservatives.  For instance, when shopping for lunch meat and hotdogs I like to buy the ones that are labeled "no nitrates".  By doing so I have noticed that many of the no nitrate meats have celery juice in them instead of nitrates.

Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?  Now to go a step further, since I am new to all this stuff, do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?  Or is there an exception?  I personally like to brine all meat before I smoke it so should I just add the instacure #1 or the celery juice powder each time to my brine?  Or do you suggest I put it in my dry rub instead?  Obviously I want to make sure I do this right because I don't want to make my family sick from me not following some simple steps to prevent botulism.


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## zalbar

> Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?  Now to go a step further, since I am new to all this stuff, do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?  Or is there an exception?  I personally like to brine all meat before I smoke it so should I just add the instacure #1 or the celery juice powder each time to my brine?  Or do you suggest I put it in my dry rub instead?  Obviously I want to make sure I do this right because I don't want to make my family sick from me not following some simple steps to prevent botulism.


Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?

No, it's actually less safe. The reaason we use cure#1/prague powder/etc is because we know EXACTLY how much sodium nitrite we're adding to your products.

Do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?

No. Do you plan on putting cure powder on your chicken? You only really need it for stuff that's going to be cured and left in a low-temp relatively oxygen free environment.

You can add cure to brine. I prefer dry curing my products. It's a lot more flavourful.


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## motsyball

Zalbar said:


> Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?
> 
> No, it's actually less safe. The reaason we use cure#1/prague powder/etc is because we know EXACTLY how much sodium nitrite we're adding to your products.
> 
> Do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?
> 
> No. Do you plan on putting cure powder on your chicken? You only really need it for stuff that's going to be cured and left in a low-temp relatively oxygen free environment.
> 
> You can add cure to brine. I prefer dry curing my products. It's a lot more flavourful.


I thought I read some where that using instacure #1 is more important when smoking wild game.  Is that true?  Also, should you add instacure #1 to any liquid you inject into the meat while its being smoked?


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## daveomak

It has been recommended that all meats that go into a smoker, have Cure #1 added to them....   Sodium Nitrite kills botulism...   
Botulism is the most lethal deadly toxin know to man...   there are now 8 known strains of botulism...  
To be realistic, contracting botulism is rare... could be because of nitrite use in foods and what the USDA has done to prevent it..   doesn't matter....  it's a moot point....    If you get botulism poisoning, there's a good chance you will be dead.....  it is a neurotoxin....

Botulinum toxin (BTX) is a neurotoxic protein produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum and related species.[1] It is also produced commercially for medical, cosmetic, and research use. There are two main commercial types: botulinum toxin type A and botulinum toxin type B.[2]

Infection with the bacterium may result in a potentially fatal disease called botulism. Botulinum is the most acutely lethal toxin known, with an estimated human median lethal dose (LD50) of 1.3–2.1 ng/kg intravenously or intramuscularly and 10–13 ng/kg when inhaled.[3]

(LD 50... Lethal Dose, where 50% of the population dies from the test)

nan·o·gram  /ˈnanəˌɡram/

noun   noun: nanogram; plural noun: nanograms; noun: ng; plural noun: ngs   * one billionth of a gram.*



There are many threads on this forum describing the proper and safe use of cure #1...  
in ground meats, add 1 tsp. per 5#'s of meat...  that equals approx. 150 Ppm nitrite...   after smoking and cooking the value is down around 50-75 Ppm nitrite...   insignificant compared to the alternative...


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## motsyball

DaveOmak said:


> There are many threads on this forum describing the proper and safe use of cure #1...in ground meats, add 1 tsp. per 5#'s of meat.


Is that for any meat you grind regardless of how you will be cooking it or just for meat you will be smoking?  I have some frozen venison roasts that I grind up and mix with store bought ground meat which I make hamburgers out of or add to my chili.  Should I be adding instacure #1 to that venison when I grind and mix it with other ground meat or would you only add it if you were going to be cooking that ground venison in a smoker?


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## daveomak

motsyball.....  morning....    Meats that are cooked low and slow in a smoker, are subjecting the internal bacteria to a perfect condition for rapid growth...   70-120 deg. F in a moist environment, a pH that is not harmful to them.. and if it is a low oxygen environment, like a smoker is, botulism can multiply....   .  If the meat is held in that condition for any length of time, the bacteria will grow...   if the meat is then subjected to a higher temperature of say 145 deg. F, most bacteria will die...   others will not...  a temp of 185 ish, will kill the botulism bacteria, but WILL NOT kill any spores the bacteria has replicated...  that takes 250 deg. F....  temperatures a home canning pressure cooker develops....       So, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place....
Granted, this multiplication process takes time and certain conditions....   there are no guidelines as to the time this growth process takes...  there is no way to tell if your smoker has the lack of oxygen required to grow / support botulism....

So, it is recommended that any meat that is subjected to a low and slow cooking process, in a smoker, has nitrite in it....    sausage, bacon come to mind.... because they are not subjected to high temps....    what time / temp guidelines would make nitrite an "un necessary" addition ???   I have no idea....   not worth the risk.....


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## atomicsmoke

motsyball said:


> Is that for any meat you grind regardless of how you will be cooking it or just for meat you will be smoking?  I have some frozen venison roasts that I grind up and mix with store bought ground meat which I make hamburgers out of or add to my chili.  Should I be adding instacure #1 to that venison when I grind and mix it with other ground meat or would you only add it if you were going to be cooking that ground venison in a smoker?


The rule is quite simple: fresh sausages don't need nitrite.


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## wade

Hi Motsyball

If you are planning to hot smoke your meat or sausage at normal smoking temperatures above 100 C (212 F) then there is no reason to add nitrate or nitrite to your meat or sausage as a preservative. Providing good food handling practices have been followed in preparing the meat or sausage then for the length of time that it will take in the smoker to reach 74 C (165 F) there will be no risk to health from bacteria. The meat will heat up from the outside so as time progresses the area within the meat/sausage where bacteria can survive and multiply will be continually shrinking.

When using normal smoking temperatures and times there is also no risk from botulinum poisoning - even if the oxygen content within a smoker may be lower than normal atmospheric oxygen. The length of time it takes for botulinum spores to produce toxin levels that approach toxic levels in most humans is measured in days and not hours, and it is also destroyed at temperatures above 85 C (185 F). Any low levels of toxin that may have been produced will also be broken down from the outside in as the meat temperature rises.

You only need to use nitrites and/or nitrates as a preservative in your meat or sausage when you are air drying or COLD smoking without "cooking". Even then, if you are using other curing methods (e.g. acidity regulation or suitable salt levels) you may not need to use them.


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## motsyball

Well this is a complete buzz kill.  My brother in law gave me some wild turkey breast to smoke so I did a search online for smoked wild turkey breast recipes and I found this one online that said to use instacure.  I then did a search on this message board to learn more about instacure and it took me to Pops brine recipe.  From reading through his recipe I thought that I needed to use instacure whenever I smoke meat to prevent botulism so I bought a bag of the stuff on amazon.  Not knowing it was only for ham, bacon or cold smoking, I used it as a brine for some chicken I am smoking tonight and some wild turkey breasts I am smoking sunday.  Maybe Pops should mention in his brine recipe that its not for normal hot smoking but just for ham, bacon and cold smoking.  Oh well, you live and learn. 

http://honest-food.net/2014/04/28/smoked-turkey-breast-recipe/


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