# What temp and how long?  Fresh Sausage



## cheapchalee (Feb 1, 2011)

I have a Noregian friend that has just given me 20 kilo's of sausage to smoke.  It is in two different mixtures and cased in natural casing.  One mixture is pork, bacon, fat, spices, the othere has cheese and some veggies added.  No presertives.  He said he wanted to do them at 60deg f but he didn't know how long.  So I mentioned to him that the problems with smoking at that temp for long times invites possible problems.  I told him that I would smoke it between 80 - 100 degrees for about 3 hours over apple chips.  Then I would pull it off and rebag and deliver to him.

Anybody got any comments?  I had though about taking one of his packs and smoke/cook it to about 160 and see if that is wht he wants.  Just don't know.

Chalee


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## DanMcG (Feb 1, 2011)

Without any cure in the sausage you really souldn't cold smoke it. I think you really need to hot smoke fresh sausage until fully cooked and then freeze for later use. I wish I had some better advise for ya Charlee.


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## virginiasmokesignal (Feb 1, 2011)

Chalee, are you sure your friend was not thinking Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.  I am horrible at conversions but I am not sure what that would convert too but it might be closer to a temp that we are use to using!  Just a thought my friend!  I do agree with DanMcG, I sure would not try to cold smoke them without any cure you are just asking for trouble and possibly poisoning someone but then that awful word that is bounced around way to much these days....lawsuit!!!  Just be careful my friend, do it right or don't do it!  I have been smoking about 7 years now and that's the best advise I can give you my friend.

Your Friend,

Barry

VirginiaSmokeSignal


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## cheapchalee (Feb 1, 2011)

Just called him and expressed my concerns and he said the temp was celsius.  Now I'm breathing easier, I think I'll take it up to 150 or so, maybe the cheese wan't melt out. 

Thanks for the replys, qview to follow.

Chalee


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## DanMcG (Feb 1, 2011)

Well that's sort of good news on the  Celsius, but 60c converts to 140f which means it will be in the danger zone (40°-140°) forever. I know people do things differently everywhere in the world  and maybe your friend knows what he's doing, but I wouldn't be comfortable smoking it.

I reread your post Chalee, Is he looking for a finish internal temp of 60c or a smoker temp  of 60C?


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## cheapchalee (Feb 3, 2011)

Well been busy, but here are the pic's.  I smoked over apple at 200 - 220 for about 5 hours till the links were at 160. 












































They turned out great and the guy was happy with them.  First time I had use this smoker and found out that it had some hot spots.

Chalee


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## fpnmf (Feb 3, 2011)

Looks great!

How did the veggie ones taste??

   Have a great day!!

  Craig


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## virginiasmokesignal (Feb 4, 2011)

Chalee, now those look great my friend!  What made me think about it being in C instead of F, I have a friend who is from Great Britain and he now lives in the US but still does everything in Celsius, and he has been here for about 10 years.  He has a Celsius thermometer on his back porch and often tells me how cold it was this morning on his back porch, took me a while to figure out he was not drunk or crazy but I finally got use to it.  When people have used that all their life and then come here where we do everything in Fahrenheit it screws with their mind a bit!  Glad you got that lined out, the sausage looks terrific, did you get his recipe?  Did you convert it from Celsius to Fahrenheit?  Can you share it, it looks very good!    Way to go Chalee!

Barry


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## DanMcG (Feb 5, 2011)

Nice job Chalee! Is your smoker a converted proofer?


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## cheapchalee (Feb 5, 2011)

VirginiaSmokeSignal said:


> Chalee, now those look great my friend!  What made me think about it being in C instead of F, I have a friend who is from Great Britain and he now lives in the US but still does everything in Celsius, and he has been here for about 10 years.  He has a Celsius thermometer on his back porch and often tells me how cold it was this morning on his back porch, took me a while to figure out he was not drunk or crazy but I finally got use to it.  When people have used that all their life and then come here where we do everything in Fahrenheit it screws with their mind a bit!  Glad you got that lined out, the sausage looks terrific, did you get his recipe?  Did you convert it from Celsius to Fahrenheit?  Can you share it, it looks very good!    Way to go Chalee!
> 
> Barry


Nope he didn't want to share it, but I think I found me a place to make them anyway I want them to. 

Chalee

Chalee


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## BGKYSmoker (Mar 16, 2011)

Outstanding.


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## joed617 (Apr 17, 2011)

I make my own andoulle sausage (about 40 lbs per week) Day 1 . mix the meat and fill the casings ..  twist them, tie them or whatever .. I place mine in a fridge overnight uncovered to dry out the casing (the smoke adhears to a dry product better than something that is damp or wet) I don't use nitrates at all in any of my products.. I'll smoke them in 2 steps .. 1st the cold smoke .. 100 deg for 2 hours (you'll get a nice redish tint to them) after that I'll crank the temp up to 175  deg and cook them this also takes a few hour Until you test one and the internal temp is 160 deg. I use the 2nd smoke for a deeper smoke flavor and for a deeper color ... I don't want to tep on anyones toes here ... this works for me and have been doing it this way for years .. and I sell out of them every week ..

Joe


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## Bearcarver (Apr 17, 2011)

CheapChalee said:


> Well been busy, but here are the pic's.  I smoked over apple at 200 - 220 for about 5 hours till the links were at 160.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome,

I just found this post, and agreed with Dan & others about cold versus hot smoking without cure.

You did them perfectly!

Nice Qview too!!!!

Thanks,

Bear


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## roller (Apr 17, 2011)

Good job !


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## beer-b-q (Apr 17, 2011)

Nice Job Chalee


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## exhaustedspark (May 22, 2011)

I always go by Rytek kutas book. Great sausage recipes and meat curing.

click above link Smokers and more to find. He says and i quote (IF IT CANT BE CURED DON'T SMOKE IT) Of course i am talking about lower then 175* 

Karl


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## scarbelly (May 22, 2011)

Great job man. Those sausages came out looking real good


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## alelover (May 23, 2011)

They look great. Glad you got the temp thing sorted out.


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## Bearcarver (May 23, 2011)

Just so people know, it is also possible to cure fresh sausage that has already been stuffed without cure, but it doesn't change any of the facts already covered in this thread.

Changing Fresh stuffed sausage into cured sausage, allows you to smoke it low & slow, and you end up with the "Smoked Sausage" taste, and color.

Bear


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## chefrob (May 23, 2011)

Bearcarver said:


> Just so people know, it is also possible to cure fresh sausage that has already been stuffed without cure, but it doesn't change any of the facts already covered in this thread.
> 
> Changing Fresh stuffed sausage into cured sausage, allows you to smoke it low & slow, and you end up with the "Smoked Sausage" taste, and color.
> 
> Bear


how so......i would be interested in this method, thx.


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## BGKYSmoker (May 23, 2011)

Hubbawubba chipawubba

But whadda i know cuz i dont use his book.


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## Bearcarver (May 23, 2011)

chefrob said:


> how so......i would be interested in this method, thx.


Here ya go Rob:

When I was pretty new on this forum, about a year & a half ago, my son had a bunch of very bland rings of fresh Venison Sausage. It was in the freezer pretty long & nobody wanted to eat any more of it. It was very tasteless! I love Smoked Sausage, so I started looking into it.

The links below will show what & how I did it, and it ended up GREAT !!!!

First test of changing stuffed fresh sausage to smoked sausage:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/83516/changing-fresh-venison-sausage-to-smoked

The rest of the sausage:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/84129/venison-sausage-converted

Bear


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## chefrob (May 24, 2011)

i'm still wondering how the cure got through the casings that were not pricked...i didn't think they were poreous. also looking at the timeline in the second post i wondered if the cure was really needed. if you started @ 9am and then finished to an IT of 165 @ 3:30, i wonder what time it was @ the 140 mark. i know it was a long time ago but do you remember? i guess another thing is how long the meat was in the danger zone while being made into sausage before you got it......that time would have to be added into the time frame while smoking from 40-140. did you add any spices to the cure and could you taste the cure? i am still learning about sausage making and i haven't come across a fresh to cure method........prolly since it was not yer intention in the first place.


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## Bearcarver (May 24, 2011)

chefrob said:


> i'm still wondering how the cure got through the casings that were not pricked...i didn't think they were poreous. also looking at the timeline in the second post i wondered if the cure was really needed. if you started @ 9am and then finished to an IT of 165 @ 3:30, i wonder what time it was @ the 140 mark. i know it was a long time ago but do you remember? i guess another thing is how long the meat was in the danger zone while being made into sausage before you got it......that time would have to be added into the time frame while smoking from 40-140. did you add any spices to the cure and could you taste the cure? i am still learning about sausage making and i haven't come across a fresh to cure method........prolly since it was not yer intention in the first place.


Good questions:

The casing was an animal edible casing, so the cure went through completely, just like a part of the animal. Many people cure & smoke Bacon with the rind on it (I don't), and that's thousands of times thicker than this skin was.

I used cure mainly to give me the "Smoked Sausage" flavor & the smoked sausage color, not only to be able to low & slow smoke it. I didn't care when it got to 140˚, because I wanted to be able to eat it cold, and I wanted the "Smoked Sausage" flavor, just like the difference between my cured Smoked Pork Chops & regular Pork Chops.

These things were originally made in a butcher shop. Then they were in my Son's freezer for about a year--no freezer burn. I didn't worry about any time the butcher used, just like I don't consider the time you take to drive your meat home in your car/truck, or the time it sits in the store above 40˚, etc, etc.

The butcher already had enough seasonings in, so all I did was add the cure.

Note: no wording above was meant to be sarcastic----Just the best way I could think of explaining my reasonings.

I think I may have been the first to do this, because I looked for weeks, and could not find it anywhere. 

I probably will never do it again, but I posted it in case anyone runs into the same situation as I did. It worked GREAT !

Later Rob,

Bear


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## alblancher (May 24, 2011)

I would not cure and slow smoke a stuffed sausage in casings that was made a year and a half ago by someone that claims there where no cures used (if memory serves).  I have looked for techniques that call for curing sausage through a casing and was not able to find one.  The amount of cure required for a whole cut dry cured is 4xs the amount of cure required for a comminuted sausage.   I am not able to qualify how a cure would penetrate the casing barrier and move through a ground product that has had cell structrure damage by extended freezing at 0 degrees.  Perhaps in this instance a cure/brine/spice injection and wet cure would be more appropriate

Extended freezing changes the ph of the meat, the available moisture in the meat and the structure of the meat proteins.  All important to the curing process.

My good friend is still alive and kicking so at least in this instance the method worked.  He got the product he wanted and didn't get sick. 

I could not give you the same advice and be comfortable that you would have the same success.


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## Bearcarver (May 24, 2011)

alblancher said:


> I would not cure and slow smoke a stuffed sausage in casings that was made a year and a half ago by someone that claims there where no cures used (if memory serves).  This particular butcher never uses cure in any venison sausage (That's not a memory thing). I have looked for techniques that call for curing sausage through a casing and was not able to find one. There wasn't any---I was the first---Someone always has to be first. The amount of cure required for a whole cut dry cured is 4xs the amount of cure required for a comminuted sausage.  No---The amount of Tender Quick needed when mixing it within the sausage is half as much as needed in whole meat. I used the same amount as I would use for whole meat, because it had to travel from the outside to the center, like it has to in whole meat. I am not able to qualify how a cure would penetrate the casing barrier and move through a ground product that has had cell structrure damage by extended freezing at 0 degrees. Of course you can't---You didn't do it.   Since I did it, I am able to qualify that it worked fine, and there was no difference between the pricked casings & the non-pricked casings. Perhaps in this instance a cure/brine/spice injection and wet cure would be more appropriate. I doubt it, because the method I used worked perfectly. I don't know how to out-do perfect.
> 
> Extended freezing changes the ph of the meat, the available moisture in the meat and the structure of the meat proteins.  All important to the curing process. See below.
> 
> ...


Al,

This proves one of the good things about Tender Quick:

Since I used Tender Quick, which is designed & manufactured for "Home Meat Curing", there are safety features built into it. One is that it stays mixed properly, without re-mixing it every time you remove some from the container. The other is the fact that they mix the salt with the cure.

If I would have used too much Tender Quick, it would have been too salty to eat. (A warning you do not get with other cures)

If I would not have used enough TQ, it would not have gotten red all the way to the middle during the salt fry test.

I believe these proofs have taken care of your concerns.

It was excellent.

Bear


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## exhaustedspark (May 24, 2011)

Another day another BBQ


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## exhaustedspark (May 24, 2011)

I still leave Sausage Pizza out all night on the counter and have it cold in the morning at room temp.  The choices are ours to make and i would have ate one or 2 or 3 of them sausages if i was there and was offered some. 

Karl


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## exhaustedspark (May 24, 2011)

Love fresh sausage with lots of sage

Just like the old days.


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## Bearcarver (May 24, 2011)

Typing everything in Caps doesn't make you right.

I believe I explained how everything worked, why it was safe, and why I did it.

I also explained why I probably never will do it again, but it certainly won't be because it isn't safe.

If anyone who knows anything about curing with TQ reads the threads, they can see there wasn't anything unsafe about it.

Back then I believe there were some pretty well versed folks commenting on those threads, who didn't seem to find anything wrong with what I did.

I and many others have eaten various meats that were in the freezer for a year or longer, and pulling it out, thawing it, curing it, and smoking it, are no different, as long as you use the proper amounts, and the proper times & temps, and follow the procedure for checking it along the way.

And this case isn't "Getting away with something" Mr Spark, it is doing everything in a safe & accurate manner, and recording it as proof. Hang in there---You'll get there.

Anyone else doesn't like it, don't follow it.

Bear


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## exhaustedspark (May 24, 2011)

Juicy yard bird and potato salad. Yum


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## DanMcG (May 24, 2011)

Hey Bear them weren't caps, just large print. There's no need to be that way,


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## Bearcarver (May 25, 2011)

DanMcG said:


> Hey Bear them weren't caps, just large print. There's no need to be that way,


*Large print* or  *ALL CAPS*, doesn't matter.

If he needed to type print that big, how could he read enough of my threads to be able to tell me "I got away with an unsafe smoke".

I explained why everything I did (more than a year ago) was perfectly safe.

I think I do enough positive things for this forum to not have to take @#%^ like that, and I don't need any reprimanding from you for defending myself.

I've been defending myself or my country for too long to stop now.

Thank You,

Bear


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## alelover (May 25, 2011)

Come on girls let's quit bickering and put our penises back in their holsters. We don't need anyone withdrawing or any thing extreme here. If you need bigger print hold the ctrl key and roll the mouse wheel. Disagreeing can be productive. It helps us compromise and find a middle ground that is best for all. Now go smoke something.


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## SmokinAl (May 26, 2011)

WOW how did I miss this. It's better than a soap opera!


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## alelover (May 26, 2011)

That's why I put my helmet on Al.


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## exhaustedspark (May 26, 2011)

I tried that Control scroll and it does nothing for me at all. I am using xp maybe that has something to do with it. I know even less about the comp then i do about BBQs.

Always willing to hear advice and learn something new. Even if i need to read it a few hundred times before i get it into the noggin.

Karl


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## exhaustedspark (May 30, 2011)

Gotta love Different strokes for Different folks


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## johnyd (Jun 4, 2011)

Heres a rule of thumb for temp conversion.

_Take the Celsius reading_

eg: 20 'C

_Double that value_

eg  40

_Add 15 and the end result is the equivalent Farenheight Temp_

eg: 55 'F


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## Bearcarver (Jun 4, 2011)

johnyd said:


> Heres a rule of thumb for temp conversion.
> 
> _Take the Celsius reading_
> 
> ...


But I believe the equivalent of 20˚ C------is-----68˚ F ?

I use this:

Quick Conversion Guide

*°C to °F*Multiply by 9, then divide by 5, then add 32*°F to °C*Deduct 32, then multiply by 5, then divide by 9
Bear


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## alelover (Jun 6, 2011)

I use this:

Quick Conversion Guide

*°C to °F*Multiply by 9, then divide by 5, then add 32*°F to °C*Deduct 32, then multiply by 5, then divide by 9
So do I since it is the correct way.


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## exhaustedspark (Jun 6, 2011)

Man you guys always make it to complicated. Just ask the wife.

K.I.S.S.

Karl


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## alelover (Jun 6, 2011)

You'll thank us later.


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