# Dry Cured no nitrite bacon, versus smoked bacon with nitrites



## Ty520 (Sep 2, 2021)

I am realtively new to bacon-making, but getting more comfortable with it - however, i only have experience with hot smoked bacon using a nitrite based cure

This is a bit of a two-parter question...

1. I was wondering what you all think of the safety of dry cured raw bacon, sans nitrites?

2.  How does shelf-life compare to hot-smoked *and/or* nitrite-cured bacon


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## DanMcG (Sep 2, 2021)

what's sans nitrite mean?


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 2, 2021)

Without nitrite, the pork will not be cured--no reddish color that we associated with bacon, no cured texture of bacon, and of course no protection against bacterial growth while drying (or smoking) except what the salt may provide.  It will not resemble bacon in the least.  It will just be dried, salted pork.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 2, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> Without nitrite, the pork will not be cured--no reddish color that we associated with bacon, no cured texture of bacon, and of course no protection against bacterial growth while drying (or smoking) except what the salt may provide.  It will not resemble bacon in the least.  It will just be dried, salted pork.


This is correct.
Most folks who say they cure with salt only, use some sort of celery powder back in the mix. Giving the red cured color from the nitrate in celery, all the while claiming “no nitrates” is pure meadow muffins . Salt cured pork without nitrites is grey meat not red.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 2, 2021)

Curing a Belly with Salt and spices only will produce Seasoned Salt Pork. When pan fried is Salty with more of a Fried Pork Chop flavor. Not a bad Breakfast Meat, but not Classic Smoked Bacon. If you choose to Smoke It, you must do so at 225°F to an IT of at least 145°F. Now you will have Smoked Salt Pork, but not Classic Smoked Bacon...JJ


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 2, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> 1. I was wondering what you all think of the safety of dry cured raw bacon, sans nitrites?


You would have to use 3% salt at minimum for safety. That’s some salty bacon.


Ty520 said:


> 2. How does shelf-life compare to hot-smoked *and/or* nitrite-cured bacon


Meat cured without nitrites has a lower shelf life generally.


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## Fueling Around (Sep 2, 2021)

For your perspective, uncured meats are not a home product, yet.





SmokinEdge said:


> ...
> Meat cured without nitrites has a lower shelf life generally.


Spanish or Italian salt cured meat has an amazing long shelf life.


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## Chasdev (Sep 3, 2021)

I'm curious, how did "bacon" get preserved hundreds of years ago?
Did it taste like our bacon tastes today, or was it just salted/smoked pork?


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 3, 2021)

Prague Powder, Cure #1, was first used in 1934. It was much safer and faster than Saltpeter. Saltpeter was used going back to 10th Century Rome. Before the 10th Century, Salt and long application of Cold Smoke, several days, provided the Nitrogen Dioxide to Cure the meat and give the Pink Color and characteristic flavor to Bacon and other meats.
Flavor wise,Bacon from a hundred or even a thousand years ago was similar to modern Artisan Bacon, but that depended on the amount of Salt used, how long it was smoked, with what variety of wood and how dry it got. Not to mention, each Country, Region, Town or Village and even individual Families used different seasonings, smoke wood and cure/drying time to get their desired flavor. This may be by choice or circumstance. Hickory or Apple Wood is not found everywhere, folks smoked with what was available...JJ


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## PolishDeli (Sep 3, 2021)

Chasdev said:


> how did "bacon" get preserved hundreds of years ago?



Saltpeter.
Connecting the dots between saltpeter and red color/flavor/enhanced preservation in salted pork didn't really occur untill the 1800s.
Saltpeter manufacturing was a big deal then because of artillery industrialization.

In ancient times, saltpwter was also used, but only by people who lived around natural deposits.   Think of ancient Itally for example. They hung meat to dry in caves, where there tends to be a lot of naturally occurring saltpeter.


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## Chasdev (Sep 3, 2021)

Now I know, thanks!


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## Ty520 (Sep 3, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> Without nitrite, the pork will not be cured--no reddish color that we associated with bacon, no cured texture of bacon, and of course no protection against bacterial growth while drying (or smoking) except what the salt may provide.  It will not resemble bacon in the least.  It will just be dried, salted pork.



I may be new, but I know that to be unequivocally not true. Curing = preserving; salt is a preservative so long as it is provided in sufficient quantities; as is smoke and even sugar. The pinkish hue from synthesized prague powder is also just added coloring as a safety measure to help prevent people from accidentally using it as normal salt

If nitrite is the sole definition of 'cured meat,' then none of the classic italian whole muscle hams could be called 'cured.'


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 3, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> Spanish or Italian salt cured meat has an amazing long shelf life.


While this is true, I would also say that those types of hams are preserved by drying more than “cured” the salt helps to extract moisture and protects against surface bacteria, but the controlled drying process or lowering AW is what makes them shelf stable.


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## PolishDeli (Sep 3, 2021)

T
 Ty520


There is room to debate as to whether or not salting can be referred to as curing. Most here would probobly say No to that.
I'd be ok with calling it "salt-cured" since it is a preservation process.  but it is fundamentally different than nitrite curing.

Salt preserves by reducing the available water for bacterial growth.
Nitrite chemically reacts with myoglobin.

The color of cure#1 is synthetic.  But the color it gives to meat is not.  It results from said chemical reaction.

If curing = preserving, do you agree with the following?
Pickled=cured
Fermented=cured
Frozen=cured
Canned=cured


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 3, 2021)

Prague Powder's Pink Color is a Dye added so it won't be confused with regular Table Salt. Prague Powder with it's 6.25% Nitrite would be toxic in the quantities we use common Table Salt when Curing meat. This Pink Dye has Zero impact on the color of Nitrite Cured meat after cooking...JJ


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 3, 2021)

PolishDeli said:


> Saltpeter.
> Connecting the dots between saltpeter and red color/flavor/enhanced preservation in salted pork didn't really occur untill the 1800s.
> Saltpeter manufacturing was a big deal then because of artillery industrialization.
> 
> In ancient times, saltpwter was also used, but only by people who lived around natural deposits.   Think of ancient Itally for example. They hung meat to dry in caves, where there tends to be a lot of naturally occurring saltpeter.



I know you gurus know this, but for the record, saltpeter is potassium nitrate, which breaks down into nitrite during the curing process.

Whether the source is nitrates from celery juice powder or saltpeter or sodium nitrite in Prague powder, there is no getting around the fact that it is ultimately nitrite (okay, which further breaks down into nitric oxide etc. etc.) that gives meat the appearance, texture and flavor we think of as "cured."  Italian salumi, French charcuterie, American cold cuts, bacon, ham--whatever--it is nitrites doing the job.


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 3, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I may be new, but I know that to be unequivocally not true. Curing = preserving; salt is a preservative so long as it is provided in sufficient quantities; as is smoke and even sugar. The pinkish hue from synthesized prague powder is also just added coloring as a safety measure to help prevent people from accidentally using it as normal salt



The pinkish hue of the cured meat is not related to the pinkish dye in the Prague powder.  The pinkish hue of cured meat is the result of the action of the nitrates on the meat's myoglobin.  Somebody else may have said this in another way above.



Ty520 said:


> If nitrite is the sole definition of 'cured meat,' then none of the classic italian whole muscle hams could be called 'cured.'



The definition isn't clear, but I'll go with 
P
 PolishDeli
 's term "salt-cured" in his reply above.  Many commercial Italian cured meat products are made by adding nitrite these days.  However, before the advent of Prague powder and the like, or if we're talking a super-traditional prosciutto, like Prosciutto di Parma, I don't think it has been clearly established what mechanism produces the characteristic color and texture.  Some theories are that it's the result of trace chemicals (maybe nitrates, maybe zinc, maybe something else) in the sea salt, or bacterial action.  If I'm not mistaken, for as much as science knows about curing, they are STILL studying this stuff.  All I know is that it tastes good, and if I keep at this hobby for the rest of my life I will still be unable to emulate Prosciutto di Parma.


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## Fueling Around (Sep 3, 2021)

Prosciutto or Prosciutto di  Parma is a product I don't care to emulate.
I eat very little of that delicacy so store bought works for me. 
Country ham or Tennessee ham is a product I will not make nor eat. (Not my taste!)
Both are traditionally pure salt cured hams or rear legs of the oinker.
Both methods produce nicely colored meats.  Not pinky of nitrite cured, but not grey as pork belly.



PolishDeli said:


> T
> Ty520
> 
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your simplified comparison of curing = preserving .
Canning or vac packing or freezing is preservation for future needs without curing the product.
Frozen is not cured in any stretch of my imagination.  It is simply preserved for future meals.
Pickled and fermented is cured, but not shelf stable without canning or preserving with freezing.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 3, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> Prosciutto or Prosciutto di  Parma is a product I don't care to emulate.
> I eat very little of that delicacy so store bought works for me.
> Country ham or Tennessee ham is a product I will not make nor eat. (Not my taste!)
> Both are traditionally pure salt cured hams or rear legs of the oinker.
> ...


All do respect Fueling, but do you understand the process of say, salami? I mention salami because it is kinda simple.

A meat product becoming shelf stable takes a process, these processes are safety hurdles. We use , salt, nitrates and nitrites, fermentation in some cases. All of this is a process to allow us to ultimately dry the meat product safely. We need salt to stop bacteria growth to start, but then use fermentation ( sausage and salami) to creat lactic acid to stop bacteria growth. We use nitrites to kill botulism and to stabilize the meat mass and control rancidity of fat. All the while trying to keep the meat safe while it dries. It’s the drying, ultimately that makes the meat shelf stable and safe.

Marianski’s book: Home Production of Quality meats and Sausages. That would be a must read for you. He breaks it down in layman’s terms to understand. Buy it, read it.

Its the drying that makes meat shelf stable. Sausages or hams are the same. Getting there safely is the journey.
I cure meats with nitrites to eliminate botulism. I haven’t needed to store any meat without refrigeration, but I can if I need to by drying It down like a Parma ham. Trying to help you understand.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 3, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> Pickled and fermented is cured, but not shelf stable without canning or preserving with freezing



This is not entirely true. It depends on what is being Pickled or Fermented. Lactobacillus Fermentation of Vegetables is a multi millenia old method of preserving the Fall Harvest without Refrigeration, Cooking or Canning, until the next growing season.This preservation method requires the Vegetable be fermented in Non-Reactive containers, submerged in the Brine, and will maintain flavor and quality many months if kept in a Cool, <60°F, and Dark storage area. Ex...Grandma had a giant Crocks of Sauerkraut and Mixed Vegetable Chow Chow, working in the cellar next to Grandpa's yearly batch of Dandelion and Concord Grape Wine. Growing up in the 60's and 70's, every Grocery Store and Deli had a huge Barrel of Garlic, Dill Pickles, out in the open for self service. Of course these were the days when people respected each other and looked out for their fellow man. The days before tainted Tylenol and Safety Seals.
I'm  sure many of us, have enjoyed more than a few Adult Beverages in an area Bar when the Unrefrigerated Jars of Pickled Hot Links or Red Beet Eggs, sitting on the back bar, started to look good. These Vinegar Pickled items also don't require refrigeration...JJ


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 4, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> Prosciutto or Prosciutto di  Parma is a product I don't care to emulate.
> I eat very little of that delicacy so store bought works for me.
> Country ham or Tennessee ham is a product I will not make nor eat. (Not my taste!)
> Both are traditionally pure salt cured hams or rear legs of the oinker.
> Both methods produce nicely colored meats.  Not pinky of nitrite cured, but not grey as pork belly.



Ah, yes, I forgot about “country ham.” I tried making one once when I received a full leg, but I chickened out safety-wise and used     some Cure #2. Traditionally salt-only, though.


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## daveomak (Sep 4, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> I know you gurus know this, but for the record, saltpeter is potassium nitrate, which breaks down into nitrite during the curing process.
> 
> Whether the source is nitrates from celery juice powder or saltpeter or sodium nitrite in Prague powder, there is no getting around the fact that it is ultimately nitrite (okay, which further breaks down into nitric oxide etc. etc.) that gives meat the appearance, texture and flavor we think of as "cured."  Italian salumi, French charcuterie, American cold cuts, bacon, ham--whatever--it is nitrites doing the job.



You have omitted some facts..

Nitrate will not cure meat,  nor will it kill botulism at refrigeration temperatures...
The meat needs to be at temps 50-60F to allow the "nitrate" bacteria to grow to break down the nitrate to nitrite to do the food safety transformation nitrite has..

Please correct your post before others read it and assume you are correct..


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 4, 2021)

daveomak said:


> You have omitted some facts..
> 
> Nitrate will not cure meat,  nor will it kill botulism at refrigeration temperatures...
> The meat needs to be at temps 50-60F to allow the "nitrate" bacteria to grow to break down the nitrate to nitrite to do the food safety transformation nitrite has..
> ...



Of course—I omitted plenty in the interest of brevity. But in which sentence do I say “nitrate cures meat” or kills anything in itself?

Nitrates break down into nitrites over time, generally as a result of bacterial action. Nitrites then produce nitric oxide, as I mentioned. And the nitric oxide reacts with the meat’s myoglobin. At least that’s the simplified explanation.  As someone pointed out in a post above, for further reading about how the curing process works, Marianski’s books are a great resource.


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## daveomak (Sep 4, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> Of course—I omitted plenty in the interest of brevity. But in which sentence do I say “nitrate cures meat” or kills anything in itself?
> 
> Nitrates break down into nitrites over time, generally   specifically as a result of bacterial action. Nitrites then produce nitric oxide, as I mentioned. And the nitric oxide reacts with the meat’s myoglobin. At least that’s the simplified explanation.  As someone pointed out in a post above, for further reading about how the curing process works, Marianski’s books are a great resource.



Salt does not kill bacteria, it simply prevents or slows down their development. To be effective the salt concentration has to be 10% or higher. Salt concentration of 6% prevents Clostridium botulinum spores from becoming toxins though they may become active when smoking at low temperatures. Adding sodium nitrite (Cure #1) eliminates that danger.

Marianski, Stanley. Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (Kindle Locations 596-599). Bookmagic LLC. Kindle Edition.


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 4, 2021)

Ah, so it's my "generally" that's the problem.  That is simply my nature--an abundance of caution in making assertions.  I said "generally" rather than "specifically" because I'm not certain science has established that there couldn't be something else at work there in addition to bacteria.  Bacteria is understood to be the mechanism, as Marianski explains.  I wasn't referring to salt, if that's what you meant by quoting Marianski.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 4, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> Whether the source is nitrates from celery juice powder or saltpeter or sodium nitrite in Prague powder


Nitrate is not the same as nitrite, to be clear.
If the source of nitrite is through celery juice or saltpeter, which is nitrate, can you explain the process by which nitrate becomes nitrite, how it happens and why?

Nitrate cures nothing directly
Nitrite acts directly in curing.


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 4, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> Nitrate is not the same as nitrite, to be clear.
> If the source of nitrite is through celery juice or saltpeter, which is nitrate, can you explain the process by which nitrate becomes nitrite, how it happens and why?
> 
> Nitrate cures nothing directly
> Nitrite acts directly in curing.



I'm having a tough day/week with words.  Let me fix that up.  

_Whether the source of nitrite is nitrate from celery juice powder or saltpeter, which breaks down into nitrite, or sodium nitrite in Prague powder ..._

I think that's better.  Yes?

As for how nitrate breaks down into nitrite, isn't that generally understood to be through the action of bacteria?  I will defer to sources such as Marianski for a more complete explanation.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 4, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> I'm having a tough day/week with words.  Let me fix that up.
> 
> _Whether the source of nitrite is nitrate from celery juice powder or saltpeter, which breaks down into nitrite, or sodium nitrite in Prague powder ..._
> 
> ...


The problem with your nitrate comments is,
1) nitrate cannot be used in bacon.
2) at refrigeration temperature, below 40*F nitrate is not reduced to nitrite. 
3) we are talking in this thread, about bacon.

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by lactobacillus and staphylococcus bacteria. These bacteria need to be in the 55*F range to be active. At refrigeration temperature, below 40*F they are inactive and cannot reduce nitrate. Never mention nitrate in a bacon thread.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 5, 2021)

I can't find any definitive info on how manufacturers that Cure with Celery Juice, Nitrate, get it to convert to the active Nitrite. Every source found from a Google Search, talks about Bacteria actively converting Nitrate to Nitrite. So...Are the Manufacturers of " Uncured" Hot Dogs adding the necessary Bacteria, letting it do it's job in a mid 50°F chamber, than smoking and cooking the Dogs? I wonder how long the Bacteria take to work? It must be a Fast process as Hot Dog production must happen very quicky to maximize profit. Anybody know more about how Uncured, Celery Juice Nitrate, Meats are produced efficiently?...JJ


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## daveomak (Sep 5, 2021)

(257) Salt, Cures, and Vegetable Powders---Part 3: Celery Juice Powder - YouTube

Celery Juice Powder Used as Nitrite Substitute in Sliced Vacuum‐Packaged Turkey Bologna Stored at 4C for 10 Weeks Under Retail Display Light (wiley.com) 

Sausage Operations askFSIS Questions (usda.gov)


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## PolishDeli (Sep 5, 2021)

Florida Food Products Inc is one company that manufacturers cjp.
The product name is Veg Stable 504.
They use strains of Staphylococcus carnosus to ferment the celery juice. Once fermented, the juice is pasteurized, evaporated, and mixed with salt and stabilizers.
It's complicated enough that'd I be surprised if hot dog manufacturers want this process built into thier assembly lines. They likely just source it.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 5, 2021)

PolishDeli said:


> Florida Food Products Inc is one company that manufacturers cjp.
> The product name is Veg Stable 504.
> They use strains of Staphylococcus carnosus to ferment the celery juice. Once fermented, the juice is pasteurized, evaporated, and mixed with salt and stabilizers.
> It's complicated enough that'd I be surprised if hot dog manufacturers want this process built into thier assembly lines. They likely just source it.


This goes with everything I’ve read. The celery juice is fermented which in turn converts nitrate to nitrite Then dried to a powder. So the package can say “nitrate free”

Seem Butcher Packer has discontinued the 504


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 5, 2021)

Thanks Dave, it makes sense that the Nitrate is converted. Don't know why I thought that  basic Dehydrated Celery Juice, direct from the plant, was what was used...JJ


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 5, 2021)

SmokinEdge said:


> The problem with your nitrate comments is,
> 1) nitrate cannot be used in bacon.
> 2) at refrigeration temperature, below 40*F nitrate is not reduced to nitrite.
> 3) we are talking in this thread, about bacon.
> ...



Guilty as charged, and I apologize.  This thread is indeed about bacon, and we risk confusing people by mentioning nitrates.  Of course, I wasn't the one who brought up nitrate--my first comment was in reply to a mention of saltpeter (I noted that it is a nitrate) and a mention of celery extract in post #4.  You're right that as far as the USDA is concerned, nitrates are not allowed in bacon.


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## daveomak (Sep 5, 2021)

(260) Are Curing Salts Really Necessary? - YouTube

There is plenty of valuable information in this video...


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## Fueling Around (Sep 5, 2021)

Hopefully the promise of USDA to regulate the labeling of non cured meats products by means of celery juice carries though.
I don't have much hope as policy is directed by  not by common sense, but by dollar sense


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## indaswamp (Sep 6, 2021)

Great info on this thread! Good work guys!


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