# Snack Sticks - AC Legg 116 base with modifications



## dward51 (Oct 22, 2017)

Well, I'm out of snack sticks.  I know, it's a disaster.  Well, I guess it's time to do something about that.

Here is the plan, making a 7 pound batch of beef sticks with my favorite go to recipe.  A modified version of AC Legg #116 spice mix with 80/20 ground chuck.  This is the recipe I'm using for a 7 pound batch.  I sometimes mix a little ground pork in, but today it is just 80/20 ground chuck from Sam's Club as I did not feel like defrosting whole meat and dragging out the #12 grinder.

*Modified AC Legg #116 Snack Sticks*

7 pounds - 80/20 ground chuck
146.85 grams - AC Legg #116 snack stick spice mix
7.94 grams - Cure #1
8.16 grams - Jalapeno powder (from Savory Spice Shop - good stuff)
15.88 grams - Butcher & Packer #414 special binder (phosphates)
1/4 cup - warm water (to dissolve cure in)
23.81 grams - ECA (encapsulated citric acid - for that fermented twang flavor)








Cure #1 measured and ready to mix with water (container on right), and the other spices are in the container on the left (except the ECA which gets mixed just before smoking).  If you don't have a gram scale that will read in 1/100th of a gram, I highly recommend one.  It's pretty much impossible to do recipes like this with any degree of accuracy without one.  Most of the larger scales have a 0.5gram to as much as a 2 gram +/- accuracy (that's a 1 to 4 gram range).







Tried mixing the meat in a rimmed pan.  Bad idea. 7 pounds was just too much for this pan so I ended up transferring it to my usual stainless steel bowl.  Here is the meat/spice mix/cure mix in the pan.  I mixed about 50% at a time in batches for more even distribution.  With the addition of phosphates the meat *WILL* get very sticky towards the end, so expect it.







All mixed up and into a storage container to go back into the fridge to rest overnight.  I like to give the spices 24 hours or so to "meld" with the meat.  Tomorrow, I will add the ECA and stuff into 21mm collagen casings right before smoking.  The ECA is *NOT* in the ingredient photo above as I'm not mixing it in today.







For those who have not used ECA before, it needs to be added right before smoking and must be mixed by hand.  The CA part (citric acid) of ECA is Encapsulated (hence the "E" part of ECA) inside a little bubble of fat.  CA will cause meat to turn grey and have a mealy mouth feel if you mix it ahead of time and let it sit.  If you over work the ECA mixing it by using a mechanical means to mix, such as a mixing tub with a crank handle or using a grinder to stuff the casings, you can also break the encapsulation open too soon and cause problems with the quality of the meat.  The fat encapsulation is meant to melt at around 143-145* and release the CA into the meat after the meat is basically set (but not fully cooked).  This adds the twang flavor you would get by a bacterial fermentation of the sticks.  Another method to add twang is to use Fermento or Cultured Buttermilk Powder (Sacco brand from the grocery store).  Short of truly making fermented sticks with cure #2, I like ECA as I think the flavor is closest to the traditional stick flavor.  But the other methods will work (and cure #2 with true fermentation is the true 'old school' way, but it takes a lot longer and involves many more steps).

One more note about ECA.  If you have the LEM brand (and several others), the recommended rate is 3 ounces for 25 pounds of meat.  The Butcher & Packer brand of ECA recommends 1.5 ounces to 25 pounds of meat.  This batch will have a little of both brands.  I can't tell the visual difference between them.  I've also seen the recommended range of 2 to 3 ounces per 25 pounds of meat on other brands.  My thinking is the ECA is probably the same product and it's a 1.5 to 3 ounce per 25 pounds, or to taste.   So I'm sticking with my usual ratio that is the equivalent of the 3 ounces to 25 pounds or 23.81 grams for this batch of 7 pounds.  I will report if it's overkill or taste like my usual sticks do.

More to follow tomorrow with the stuffing and smoking.

----------------------------------

*Edit - January 21, 2018.*

I see they finally added the ability to include a excel spreadsheet as an attachment to a post.  I've added my AC LEGG #116 calculator for this recipe to this post in an edit.  Just input your total amount of meat and it will auto calculate all the weights for you.   Recipe is first part, and everything below that in spreadsheet is basically notes.


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## dward51 (Oct 23, 2017)

*Day 2.....*

Meat has been mixed with the spices and phosphates and allowed to rest overnight in the refrigerator so the flavors can blend.  Today I'm adding the ECA and stuffing into 21mm collagen casings and smoking/cooking.  Time to measure out the ECA (23.81 grams for 7 lbs of meat).

First here is the cast of characters for this step.  ECA from Butcher & Packer, 1/100th gram resolution digital scale, 100 gram calibration weight, and small container to weigh the ECA in.







I ALWAYS verify the calibration of my scale.  Make sure you buy the calibration weight that can also be used to reset your calibration if needed (rare, but it does happen - usually when the batteries start to die and after changing to new batteries).  Calibration check with the 100 gram test weight was spot on.







23.81 grams of ECA measured out (the small container was "tarred" out so the display only shows the weight of the product being weighed).  I love my 1/100th gram accuracy scale.  It's a must when doing small batches as cure #1 for a 1 pound batch of meat is only 1.13 grams.  Try measuring that on a postal scale with a +/- 2 gram accuracy.  You could end up with 1/2 of what you need or twice what you need.  1/100th gram resolution puts you spot on when paired with a calibration weight to verify accuracy (note:  I also double check the calibration at the end of weighing my spices just as a double check.  Scale was accurate when I started and accurate when I ended, so the measurements made in between should be golden).







ECA sprinkled in with the meat for mixing just before stuffing.  Gentle hand mixing and I also added about 1/2 cup of water to help loosen up the meat as the phosphates had made it a bound and sticky mass (which it is supposed to do).







The work table.  I use a length of plastic coated freezer paper to line my table for a clean work surface.  It also makes it super easy to clean up when done.  I did these sticks solo, so I crank out about 18" worth into the open work area, then cut with a pair of kitchen shears to about 11 or 12".  Then into the rimmed pan, and repeat until the meat is all stuffed.  













Did a fry test with the little bit that always remains in the stuffing tube and horn section of the stuffer.  Flavor was spot on. A little jalapeno heat with that ECA twang.   I love this modified version of the AC Legg #116 spice (this is my goto version).   Note the moisture retention and smooth texture of the cut section.  This is due to the use of a phosphate in the sausage making process (and don't freak out, phosphates are a naturally occurring compound and not some franken-food). 













And finally - into the custom built "MES CUSTOM SS" to complete the process.  Smoking will be in the following stages:

60 minutes at 120* with no smoke to set casings to meat
120 minutes at 130* with hickory smoke from a pellet tray
120 minutes at 140* with smoke until the pellets run out (I run a single section in the pellet tray so figure on about 3 hours smoke total)
60 minutes at 150*
Heat at 165* to finish sticks at an internal temp of 152-154* (however long it takes)
Let them cool on the racks to room temp for a couple of hours
7 pounds of stuffed 21mm casings only took up 3 racks in the MES CUSTOM SS smoker. Plenty of room for more in this modified smoker.







More to come once done.....


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## dward51 (Oct 23, 2017)

*And they are done.....*

I've still got a few sticks in the MES.  Since I only had 3 racks I "thought" I would not need to do rotation of the racks as the MES CUSTOM SS does heat fairly evenly.  Apparently there is a slightly cooler column of air on the left side over where the element comes into the body (which makes sense now that I think about it).  So, I have about 10 sticks still in getting that last 5* to get over the 152* mark.  Yes, I temped every one of them with the Thermapen instant read just to be sure.

Nice color!!!!













I usually cut them into about 4" lengths (thirds) when I make the 21mm casing sticks.  Size is slightly thicker than the "monster" style Slim Jims.   Nice snap on these casings too (fresh, bought about 2 weeks ago and from a sausage supply house not Bass Pro or somewhere similar where you have no idea how long they have been in a box in the stock room or on a shelf).  Fresh makes a difference even with collagen.

Cut to show the consistenciy I get when using sausage making phosphates.  I'm sold on them and have even started using them in some of my other products.  Gives a nice commercial quality consistency and does improve the smoothness of the mouth feel as well.  Just don't overdo it and stick to recommended amounts or less (I go less with "regular" sausage).  Does wonders to keep the moisture in your product.  Also helps with collagen casings in sticks as the meat does not shrink away and loosen the casing.


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## crazymoon (Oct 24, 2017)

DW51, Fine looking sticks !


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## SmokinAl (Oct 24, 2017)

Great thread & tutorial!
The sticks look fantastic!
Very nicely done!
Congrats on making the carousel!
Al


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## griz400 (Oct 24, 2017)

nice slim jims there .. points to you :cool:


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## gary s (Oct 24, 2017)

Great Pics, Great Tutorial    Nice Job !!

Gary


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## driedstick (Oct 24, 2017)

Thems there looks great Dave,,, Great job and great tutorial, awesome!!! POINT!!


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## uncle eddie (Oct 24, 2017)

Nice looking sticks!  Points!

Great tutorial too!


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## daveomak (Oct 24, 2017)

Nice tutorial.. I too love the effect of phosphates...  Those sticks loooook soooooo good....


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## BGKYSmoker (Oct 24, 2017)

Good job like always.


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## Bearcarver (Oct 24, 2017)

OMG---Those Look Awesome, Dave!!!:)

Nice Job!! "Like"

Bear


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## Rings Я Us (Oct 24, 2017)

Makes me want to  go get the stuff to make all that right now.. haha nice! Sure is a fun hobby isn't it?


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## smokeymose (Oct 24, 2017)

Those look great! 
I’ve been meaning to try ECA for a while and just haven’t gotten around to ordering it.
Is that a 1/2 in. horn? That’s what I use to stuff 16mm collagen (I like skinny stix) and it’s usually a bit of a chore to get through the pipe. Would ECA make it easier or harder?

Sent a “like” your way....

Dan


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## dward51 (Oct 24, 2017)

Thank you all....  

And holy crap!!!!   I made the photo carousel on the first page of the forum.  First time for me on that, wow......

I love this hobby.  This is my go-to stick recipe and has been for some time.  I did use the LEM 3/8" tube (3/8" inner diameter and 1/2" outer).  I also have a 9mm tube I bought on Ebay that is supposed to work with down to 13mm casings.  I've used the 17mm on the LEM tube, but you basically have to unravel the casing to load it.  With the 9mm tube (inner diameter), it slides right on.  I can feel extra pressure on the piston when using the 9mm tube, but considering how much meat it's trying to push down that pencil thin hole, I think I understand why.  The ECA will not make the meat harder to stuff, but the phosphate will make it stickier and I always add a little extra water just before stuffing to counteract that. The phosphates will end up binding up that water too, so don't wait too long before stuffing.


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## pc farmer (Oct 24, 2017)

I just got some eca ordered to try it.  Forgot the phosphate thou.


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## Deer Meat (Oct 24, 2017)

I have been wanting to make snack sticks for a while now. I will be using this recipe for sure!


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## disco (Oct 26, 2017)

Super sticks, Sir! Point!

Disco


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## lovethemeats (Oct 28, 2017)

I usually by a 5 lb bag of Kowalski's hunter sausage sticks to munch on when out in the great out doors. But yours put them to shame. Points to you on everything. Really liked how you showed your steps and the list of ingredients going into it. Very well done.


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## dward51 (Oct 28, 2017)

Thank you all....!!!!!

Over the years, I loved to learn from forum posts and it just seems right to pay it forward with instructions that might be helpful to someone else.  None of us were born knowing how to smoke meats or make sausage products, and there is a lot of trial and error, but when something works, I think it is only right to share it.

So get out there and smoke something!!!!  And get a friend interested also.....


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## dward51 (Oct 28, 2017)

I have a excel spreadsheet for this recipe.  I made it so I can quickly calculate the ingredients from the weight of the meat I have on hand.  Only problem is I'm not sure how to upload or attach an excel .xlsx file in the new forum.  I did not see it as an option and the upload file does not take the excel file extensions.  If some one knows how to do this let me know and I'll add the spreadsheet to the original post.


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## lovethemeats (Oct 28, 2017)

Good question  on the extension. I need to try a trick before answering that. I might know a way. Learned to get around  things like that on my work computer


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## lovethemeats (Oct 28, 2017)

Sorry the trick I know won't  work either .


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## myownidaho (Nov 15, 2017)

Don't know how I missed this! I have supplies coming for my first batch of snack sticks and this looks like the perfect recipe to start with. 

Question, I didn't order the phosphates and I'm not willing to pay shipping would be more than the price of the product, would dried milk work for snack sticks?


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## smokeymose (Nov 15, 2017)

myownidaho said:


> Don't know how I missed this! I have supplies coming for my first batch of snack sticks and this looks like the perfect recipe to start with.
> 
> Question, I didn't order the phosphates and I'm not willing to pay shipping would be more than the price of the product, would dried milk work for snack sticks?


Should be fine, Idaho. Just be sure to mix it REALLY good so you don’t get clumps.
Frankly, I’ve never used a binder (like SPC or powdered milk) in snack sticks and they come out fine.

Dan


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## daveomak (Nov 15, 2017)

myownidaho said:


> Don't know how I missed this! I have supplies coming for my first batch of snack sticks and this looks like the perfect recipe to start with.
> 
> Question, I didn't order the phosphates and I'm not willing to pay shipping would be more than the price of the product, would dried milk work for snack sticks?



$13... free shipping....   treats over 200#'s of meat...  adds about $0.06 per pound....    Good for sausage and whole muscle meats..  turkey, chicken, pork ....   and it really makes the meat moist.....


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## dward51 (Nov 15, 2017)

If you use NFDM and it's not specifically made for sausage making, it may be courser than that which is for sausage making.  Simple trick to use grocery store version is run it quickly through a blender or food processor to make it a very fine powder.

And like DaveO said, phosphates are very inexpensive and a very small amount goes a very long way.


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## myownidaho (Nov 15, 2017)

Thanks, gentlemen. I’ve used NFDM for sausage and it worked just fine. I had searched Amazon and must have missed the the binder Dave found. Off to Amazon...again.


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## daveomak (Nov 16, 2017)

http://store.theingredientstore.com/amesphos.aspx


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## myownidaho (Nov 16, 2017)

Thanks, Dave! I ordered a bag yesterday.


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## daveomak (Nov 16, 2017)

You won't regret it...


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## browneyesvictim (Nov 16, 2017)

I made snack sticks with AC Legg and used NFDM, and they turned out just fine.
http://smokingmeatforums.com/index.php?threads/snack-sticks-venison-with-a-c-legg.253138/
Daveomak has convinced me to try the Amesphos for the next ones though.


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## stainless (Nov 16, 2017)

dward51 said:


> I have a excel spreadsheet for this recipe.  I made it so I can quickly calculate the ingredients from the weight of the meat I have on hand.



I did the same thing on several of my AC Legg recipes.  Makes it a lot easier.  Hopefully I did my math correctly and don't look like a imbecile.  I have used it several times and everything turned out fine.


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## dward51 (Nov 16, 2017)

I wanted to post the spreadsheet for others to use.  However the new forum will not let me upload an excel spreadsheet (you could in the old forum).  I messaged the admins, but so far no joy on them adding .xls or .xlsx file extension to the allowed types for uploads.


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## dward51 (Jan 21, 2018)

dward51 said:


> Well, I'm out of snack sticks.  I know, it's a disaster.  Well, I guess it's time to do something about that.
> 
> Here is the plan, making a 7 pound batch of beef sticks with my favorite go to recipe.  A modified version of AC Legg #116 spice mix with 80/20 ground chuck.  This is the recipe I'm using for a 7 pound batch.  I sometimes mix a little ground pork in, but today it is just 80/20 ground chuck from Sam's Club as I did not feel like defrosting whole meat and dragging out the #12 grinder.
> 
> ...


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## dward51 (Jan 21, 2018)

I just checked back in on this post and see that they finally added excel files as an approved type to attach to a post.  The spreadsheet for this recipe is now included in the very first post of this thread.

Thanks Jeff!!!!  (and Mods!!!)


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## johnnyb54 (Feb 11, 2018)

Beautiful sticks and an excellent tutorial! The only question I have is why no water pan to add moisture in the air. I know why you wouldn’t used it for making jerky since you’re drying out the meat. I thought when smokinh sausage you would want to add moisture in order to keep the casings from getting tough.


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## smokeymose (Feb 13, 2018)

johnnyb54 said:


> Beautiful sticks and an excellent tutorial! The only question I have is why no water pan to add moisture in the air. I know why you wouldn’t used it for making jerky since you’re drying out the meat. I thought when smokinh sausage you would want to add moisture in order to keep the casings from getting tough.


There's plenty of moisture in the meat mix. That's why you let them dry a bit to get tacky before smoking. At these low temps a water pan won't do much anyway, and since a water bath or cool down spray is usually involved, casing moisture is a moot point....


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## dward51 (Feb 14, 2018)

X2 on plenty of moisture in the sticks and sausage met mix.

I learned my smoking skills initially in a WSM back in 2005.  A WSM is made to be a water smoker.  In a charcoal water smoker the water serves more of a function as a heat control device than anything else.  It's been covered before, but water wants to stay water and it takes a much larger input of energy to go from water at 212* to steam at 212*.  The energy is sucked out of the air column of heated air. And steam wants to drop back down to water for the same reasons.  You have to keep putting the higher energy into steam to keep it as steam.  Basically water in a smoker does add some moisture to the air column, but it mainly helps moderate temp swings and hold stable temps in that 210 to 225 band which is perfect for low and slow cooking.  With a PID controlled electric smoker that temp control crutch is not needed. Even in a less precise MES with the stock controls, water serves mainly as a thermal heat sink to smooth out the temp swings and overshoots.

Also with sticks and sausage smoking you are not going to 200* unless you want problems with fat out.  So water not needed IMO.


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## Snacksticker (Jan 21, 2019)

dward51
What brand/scale do you use? I am finding mixed reviews on the ones I have looked at


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## dward51 (Jan 21, 2019)

My bulk scale is a UltraShip 55 with a max weight capability of 55 pounds.  It seems to work great and I can tare out the weight of even my stainless mixing bowls.








The precision gram scale I use is a American Weigh Scalemate SM-501. For a precision scale you need one that will display 0.01 grams (1/100th of a gram).  Also make sure to purchase the correct calibration weight with you precision scale.  You want to be able to verify the accuracy and re-calibrate the scale if necessary.  I turn on the scale, and check the calibration with the weight (mine is 100g), then I weight my spices, cure, etc....; when done I again check the calibration with the weight.  If it reads the 100g calibration weight correctly at the start and end, I know my spice & cure weights are also correct between the 2 calibration checks.







The reason I don't weight spices and cure with the bulk scale (the UltraShip), is for 0 to 2 pounds the resolution of that scale is 0.1 ounces.  0.1 ounces is 2.84 grams (and that would be a plus or minus 0.1 ounces or plus or minus 2.84 grams which is a 5.68 gram range). How do you run a 5 pound batch of meat that needs 5.67 grams of cure #1 when your scales can be off by as much as 5.68 grams. You could end up with twice the needed cure or dang near no cure.  It gets even worse if you are trying to measure a 1 pound trial run of a new recipe and need only 1.13g of cure!  You could have 500% too much cure if you use the bulk scale.  But if I'm weighing out 5 pounds of meat and I'm off 0.1 ounces, who cares.  That is what a bulk scale is for.

With a precision scale that reads in 1/100th of a gram and with a accuracy of plus or minus 0.02g you are much better off.  So that same 5.67 grams on my precision scale "could" be 5.69 or 5.65 grams.  But I think it is spot on as I'm checking the accuracy of the scale before and after weighing and the calibration weight reads 100.00 grams 99% of the time, and occasionally 100.01 or 99.99 the other 5% of the time.  Close enough to be perfectly safe.  The key is a precision scale that has 1/100th of a gram (0.01g) resolution.

So use a bulk scale for meat and tarring out your mixing containers (higher weights) and use a precision scale for your spices and cure.


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## Bearcarver (Jan 22, 2019)

dward51 said:


> My bulk scale is a UltraShip 55 with a max weight capability of 55 pounds.  It seems to work great and I can tare out the weight of even my stainless mixing bowls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The thing I like about the scale Dave is showing is:

Removable flex face display for weighing oversized boxes.
The scale I have doesn't do that, and it's a PITA when I have to weigh things bigger than the scale. I have to try to balance it on the scale without it falling off the back, in order to be able to read the scale.

Bear


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## Dudest (Jul 3, 2020)

This is an oldie but a goofy. I ease back just a tiny bit on the eca. And add just a tiny bit more of the jalapeno. Outstanding..people at work want to buy them..oh yeah and I add accent,....


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## flatbroke (Jul 20, 2020)

Dudest said:


> This is an oldie but a goofy. I ease back just a tiny bit on the eca. And add just a tiny bit more of the jalapeno. Outstanding..people at work want to buy them..oh yeah and I add accent,....


 good to know


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