# Inject whole muscle meats, then onto the curing chamber?



## Casebrew (Sep 26, 2021)

The following discussion is for entertainment pruposes only and are Not Supported by SMF STAFF or members...JJ

Traditionally, all the whole muscle fermented meats were dry rubbed and abandoned for months. I figure inject a ham brine and hang it, start with the preservatives and flavors in the core already. Why not?


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## indaswamp (Sep 26, 2021)

The reason why dry cured hams are not injected is because the act of injecting leaves puncture wounds which would then provide access to the center of the meat for bacteria to migrate. Thus increasing the risks of it going bad. Also, you need the cure and salt to evenly disperse for even protection all over the ham, before you place into the drying chamber.

Also, for dry curing, you do not want to add any additional liquids. You want to dry the meat, not add more moisture to it. What percent brine by weight were you considering injecting?

Furthermore, this is why dry cured meats use a dry cure process... 1. the high salt concentration on the surface of the meat kills/prevents growth of unwanted pathogens. 2. The salt starts pulling moisture out of the meat immediately when applied.  The high salt concentration on the surface will push the salt in faster than a wet brine will. I have seen where only half the initial salt and cure is applied, then 10 days later the ham is reworked and the other half is added. This allows for a more even distribution through the ham faster than if all the salt was applied initially.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 26, 2021)

Inda has you covered.
You cannot long age injected meats because in the end, it’s all about lowering the AW (available water) in the meat for preservation and stability. Injection is counter to drying. Will cause more problems than anything else for long cured products. We dry them down to concentrate the flavors, and kill bacteria, which needs water to survive.


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## Casebrew (Sep 26, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> The reason why dry cured hams are not injected is because the act of injecting leaves puncture woulds which would then provide access to the center of the meat for bacteria to migrate. Thus increasing the risks of it going bad. Also, you need the cure and salt to evenly disperse for even protection all over the ham, before you place into the drying chamber.
> 
> Also, for dry curing, you do not want to add any additional liquids. You want to dry the meat, not add more moisture to it. What percent brine by weight were you considering injecting?
> 
> Furthermore, this is why dry cured meats use a dry cure process... 1. the high salt concentration on the surface of the meat kills/prevents growth of unwanted pathogens. 2. The salt starts pulling moisture out of the meat immediately when applied.  The high salt concentration on the surface will push the salt in faster than a wet brine will. I have seen where only half the initial salt and cure is applied, then 10 days later the ham is reworked and the other half is added. This allows for a more even distribution through the ham faster than if all the salt was applied initially.



I doubt the holes are any problem,  germs don't have eye to seek them out. The brine will have salt, sodium nitrate, and a starter IMMEDIATLY into the meat and all over the outside. And filling the holes. Injecting the culture ought to jump start the curing/acidification too. So I'm not concerned with spoilage. So far as added water taking longer to extract, I suspect it will also lose it faster to start, so 20% more water to the 30% might not take 2/3 longer?  Does the 8% red wine make the salami take longer?

Advantage? Flavor in depth, and safer because of the quick start to the fermentation. 

Any first hand knowledge? How 'wet' have you cured anything?


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## PolishDeli (Sep 27, 2021)

You're right. Bacteria don't have eyes. But by stochastic growth processes and population statistics, they'll find the punctures. 

If you inject a culture that is intended to be used on the surface of meat (eg Mold600), it won't work.
Why? Aerobic vs anaerobic conditions. 

Dry-aged meat needs time to dry.  Injecting liquid will not speed things up

If you want to cure a ham: yes, inject the brine. 
If you want to ferment and dry-age something: no, don't inject anything.


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## indaswamp (Sep 27, 2021)

You do you man......seems I'm wasting my time here.


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## Casebrew (Sep 27, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> You do you man......seems I'm wasting my time here.



Actually, that is the  most support I've gotten here.
No actual experience, I guess I'll break some new ground.  Risk a couple lbs pork.

Whadya think, use the before weight, less 30% for my target final weight?


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## Casebrew (Sep 27, 2021)

Related thought:  If you know what dry bub/wet bulb measurements* are, you can use a meat thermometer to tell how fast your meat is drying. 

*DB/WB is telling humidity level by comparing the air temp with another thermometer that is in a wick that has the other end in water. It was the  The evaporation off the wick cools that thermometer. A chart compares the two readings and gives Relative Humidity %.  SOP before electronic hydrometers were invented. So,  the temp of drying meat should tell you how fast the water is evaporating.

I've got a used Inkbird 608T coming from eBay, with two temp probes.  I was wondering why the previous owner needed it that way and remember then DB/WB practice. I did it once years ago, using the cuff of a tee shirt as the wick. No need to submerge the probe, just the end of the wick.


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## TNJAKE (Sep 27, 2021)

Guys giving you advice are pros at this. You should take it!


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## indaswamp (Sep 28, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Risk a couple lbs pork.


You don't know what you don't know. We are trying to help you. You are risking more than just a couple pounds of pork. There are methods that have been developed that MUST be followed for safety reasons.


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 28, 2021)

Other replies have hit the nail on the head, but I'll take a stab at it.  I think you're relying too much on the simplistic knowledge that nitrite protects against spoilage.  It does, but it's not the whole story.  Here's a good paragraph from _Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages_ (Marianski).  Marianski refers to "hurdles" or a succession of barriers to spoilage.

_"The first hurdle is an application of salt and sodium nitrite which slows down spoilage and keeps pathogenic bacteria at bay. *The first hurdle is a temporary one* and if we don't follow up with additional hurdles, such as lowering pH and then lowering water activity Aw, the product will spoil." (emphasis added in bold)._

As I understand this, the nitrite just buys some time (and a mixture with nitrate might buy more) but can't be relied on to preserve the meat through an extended drying phase, such as you would have if you started out with an injected ham.  The drying needs to begin while the nitrite is still fully effective, and needs to continue at a rate that keeps up with the dissipation of the nitrite.  I'm pretty sure there are graphs somewhere showing dissipation of nitrite and lowering of Aw that would reveal how they need to go hand in hand over time.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 28, 2021)

Lorenzoid said:


> Other replies have hit the nail on the head, but I'll take a stab at it.  I think you're relying too much on the simplistic knowledge that nitrite protects against spoilage.  It does, but it's not the whole story.  Here's a good paragraph from _Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages_ (Marianski).  Marianski refers to "hurdles" or a succession of barriers to spoilage.
> 
> _"The first hurdle is an application of salt and sodium nitrite which slows down spoilage and keeps pathogenic bacteria at bay. *The first hurdle is a temporary one* and if we don't follow up with additional hurdles, such as lowering pH and then lowering water activity Aw, the product will spoil." (emphasis added in bold)._
> 
> As I understand this, the nitrite just buys some time (and a mixture with nitrate might buy more) but can't be relied on to preserve the meat through an extended drying phase, such as you would have if you started out with an injected ham.  The drying needs to begin while the nitrite is still fully effective, and needs to continue at a rate that keeps up with the dissipation of the nitrite.  I'm pretty sure there are graphs somewhere showing dissipation of nitrite and lowering of Aw that would reveal how they need to go hand in hand over time.


This is all absolutely true…..
I cannot stress enough the danger of injecting then drying meat as in anaerobic bacteria Growth. The nitrate will keep botulism at bay, but there is a long list of other bacteria like listeria and others that must be controlled by fermentation and/or drying (LOWERING MOISTER CONTENT, ie,,, AW, or available water). Injecting meat prior to the drying meat is counter productive, dangerous, and frankly, stupid, but some of the best lessons in life are learned the hard way, if you don’t die, that is.


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## Casebrew (Sep 28, 2021)

Funny, we can sure dry salami after adding fluids and perforating it full of holes .  Up to large diameter bolognas and skilandis. Even safer to if you add a start culture to lower the pH faster.

But MY GAWD  them charqueteers are dropping like flies from food borne illnesses.  NOT.


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## pineywoods (Sep 28, 2021)

You come onto our site I presume to get feedback on your plan which you have gotten quite a bit of. As was stated the ones that have replied to you have all done this before and are all very good at it with a great deal of knowledge. Since everyone of them has told you the way you want to do it is not safe and you refuse to heed their advice why did you bother to post in the first place?
They have tried to convince you it's not safe but you seem to feel you know more than all of them do so do what your going to do. You might just get away with it once or twice or more but eventually the odds will catch up with you hopefully you don't make to many people sick and they all recover.


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## indaswamp (Sep 28, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Funny, we can sure dry salami after adding fluids and perforating it full of holes .  Up to large diameter bolognas and skilandis. Even safer to if you add a start culture to lower the pH faster.
> 
> But MY GAWD  them charqueteers are dropping like flies from food borne illnesses.  NOT.


^^^^^Case in point.

Salumi is not salami. Whole muscles do not have a significant enough pH drop to provide protection against spoilage because no fermentation culture is used, and no sugars are used. Salumi (whole muscles) are assumed to be sterile when fresh due to the innate immune system in the animal, as long as the animal was healthy when processed and the meat is fresh. It is this sterility that is essential for dry curing whole muscles. Which is why you can't inject.

With salami, when you mince the meat, you are exposing the meat surface to the air and it gets colonized with thousands of different pathogenic bacteria floating on the air. When you stuff in casing, those bacteria are all over inside to the center of the salami. Sterility is gone. You CAN NOT make salami WITHOUT fermentation. The modern way to do so is by adding a fermentable sugar like dextrose along with a culture specifically designed for meat fermentation, and most have bio-protective properties due to the natural antibiotics released by the bacteria. Sanitary processing procedures are your first hurdle. The addition of 3% salt and 0.25% cure #2 are the second hurdle. Acid drop is the third hurdle, and final drying below Aw of 0.86 is the fourth and final hurdle.

Until the salami has properly dried, the first three hurdles are your only protection against pathogenic bacteria.

You wanna fly fast and loose with the rules, that is on you. But don't come on here asking for advice, then laugh off the advice you are being given. That is quite arrogant. You want help? Best be humble and admit that which you do not know.


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## indaswamp (Sep 28, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> No actual experience,



That is glaringly obvious.



Casebrew said:


> But MY GAWD them charqueteers are dropping like flies from food borne illnesses. NOT.


All the stupid ones are already dead....or alive playing Russian roulette with death.


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Does the 8% red wine make the salami take longer?


No. Wine is very acidic running between pH 3.5-4.8. Wine also has alcohol, usually around 15% or so. The alcohol is antimicrobial, and it will evaporate faster than water.

Back in the day "old school" no cultures were used; though fermentation did occur but at a much slower pace with 'wild strains' thus increasing the risk of an unsafe product. A significant amount of wine was added because this dropped the pH of the meat. Just 4% wine will drop the pH of pork to around 5.6~5.65;  adding 8% wine will drop the pH of pork to around 5.3~5.4 which is the lowest a traditional southern Italian salami will drop in pH; and offers a safety hurdle  in conjunction with the salt and cure.

PH drop accelerates the meat losing water. This is why the salami is pricked. During the early part of the fermentation, the salami goes through the "dripping" phase where it will lose 3-5% of it's water. A small amount of additional water added will not affect the overall drying time.

Drying time of salami is affected by many factors, temperature of the chamber, air speed, RH% in chamber, diameter of the salami, fat to meat ratio, type of meat used, size of the grind, whether it is pressed or not, amount of salt used, final pH drop upon fermentation, thickness of mold coverage, thickness of dry rim-if present.


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## SmokinEdge (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Funny, we can sure dry salami after adding fluids and perforating it full of holes .  Up to large diameter bolognas and skilandis. Even safer to if you add a start culture to lower the pH faster.
> 
> But MY GAWD  them charqueteers are dropping like flies from food borne illnesses.  NOT.


Im thinking you are a troll. No other reason for the stupidity in your posting other than to generate a response. This site is the gold standard in knowledge for all things smoked, cured and/or dried, as in bbq and charcuterie. I for one refuse to chase you any farther down your decrepit rabbit hole of nonsense. The admin should bring down the ban hammer on you.


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## Casebrew (Sep 29, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> No. Wine is very acidic running between pH 3.5-4.8. Wine also has alcohol, usually around 15% or so. The alcohol is antimicrobial, and it will evaporate faster than water.
> 
> Back in the day "old school" no cultures were used; though fermentation did occur but at a much slower pace with 'wild strains' thus increasing the risk of an unsafe product. A significant amount of wine was added because this dropped the pH of the meat. Just 4% wine will drop the pH of pork to around 5.6~5.65;  adding 8% wine will drop the pH of pork to around 5.3~5.4 which is the lowest a traditional southern Italian salami will drop in pH; and offers a safety hurdle  in conjunction with the salt and cure.
> 
> ...



Finally some reasonable discussion. Except that pricking the salami is to let trapped air escape, and wine actually adds sugar to feed the lacto ferment, Indaswamp seems to back up my idea.

This discussion is what I came here for, I'm not just trolling.  What has been absent is anybody with personal experience,  no "I tried it and I ended up with a slimey putrid mess that 8 years later the neighbors still talk about the smell".  :D

Typical salami takes weeks. Standard whole meat (salumi? def?) system may take a year or more.  It looks to me that it will actually be safer due to jump-starting the whole meat fermentation system with wine, starter culture, and injection. It sounds to me like a process that you folks ought to be interested in.  

Tell you what though, I'll put a clause in my will that if I die of food borne illness traceable to my salumi, to have my executor post an RIP here. :D


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Indaswamp seems to back up my idea.


No, I am not backing up your idea. How you arrived at that conclusion is beyond me.



Casebrew said:


> It looks to me that it will actually be safer due to jump-starting the whole meat fermentation system with wine, starter culture, and injection. It sounds to me like a process that you folks ought to be interested in.


Whole muscles are not fermented. The flavors come from the lipolysis and protolysis, which is the breakdown of fats and proteins via a number of mechanisms within the meat to create new flavor compounds. That takes a lot of time, not an injection.


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> What has been absent is anybody with personal experience, no "I tried it and I ended up with a slimey putrid mess that 8 years later the neighbors still talk about the smell". :D


Nobody here has tried it because we know it is too risky. You don't know why it's risky and from this thread looks like you don't care....and that is the scary part.


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## Casebrew (Sep 29, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> No, I am not backing up your idea. How you arrived at that conclusion is beyond me.
> 
> 
> Whole muscles are not fermented. The flavors come from the lipolysis and protolysis, which is the breakdown of fats and proteins via a number of mechanisms within the meat to create new flavor compounds. That takes a lot of time, not an injection.



You did state the science behind what I want to try. THAT backs up my idea, nothing there to cause me consternation. 

Likewise, I see no reason that injecting brine w/ flavors will prevent proto & lipo-lysis. It happens in salami too.  

And no, I am not expecting Proscuitto Parma either.  It WILL be different.  It's called Innovation, like those Italians did, Christoper Columbus? Leonardo Da Vince? Marconi? Chef Boyardee?


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

First sentence...


> Dry cured hams are not injected with a curing solution or immersed in it. They may be smoked or not. Today, dry cured hams may be marketed as items that need preparation on the part of the consumer to make them safe to eat. As with all meat products, it is important to read the label of hams to determine the proper preparation needed. These uncooked hams are safe stored at room temperature because they contain so little water that bacteria can not grow. The way dry hams are made today is not much different from the process that was performed in the past. The difference lies mainly in climate control.





Go read this section on Dry Cured Hams written by Stanley and Adam Marianski:
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/dry


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> You did state the science behind what I want to try. THAT backs up my idea, nothing there to cause me consternation.
> 
> Likewise, I see no reason that injecting brine w/ flavors will prevent proto & lipo-lysis. It happens in salami too.
> 
> And no, I am not expecting Proscuitto Parma either.  It WILL be different.  It's called Innovation, like those Italians did, Christoper Columbus? Leonardo Da Vince? Marconi? Chef Boyardee?


You did not post this thread as an inexperienced salumist looking for advice on how to do it properly. You posted this thread looking for validation for your experiment. Have you even considered why it is not being done that way?

No one here will cheer you on. If you do not want to dry cure whole muscles the right way, my prediction is that this thread gets locked. SMF adheres to PROVEN and SAFE USDA approved methods and we encourage new members to do the same.

What you want to do is dangerous, that is why it is not done that way today.


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## Lorenzoid (Sep 29, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> What has been absent is anybody with personal experience, no "I tried it and I ended up with a slimey putrid mess that 8 years later the neighbors still talk about the smell". :D



I wouldn't be so sure every pathogen makes "slime" or smells putrid.  It could look and taste as you might expect and yet sicken you or worse.


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## indaswamp (Sep 29, 2021)

If you want to get seasonings "inside" a large muscle, the BEST way to do so would be to copy the way pancetta is made....
Filet the cut of meat out into a flat 1-1 1/2" thick slab, Dry cure the meat, then season with dried spiced then roll tight and truss. Case the meat, then tie and hang to dry cure.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 30, 2021)

Innovation creates new ideas and items. But not very often. The reason you cant find ANY info to back up your's? No ones gotten a good result or isn't around to say, " That No Work! " I highly doubt, in a couple of millenia, someone didn't try to  Inject whole muscle to save a few weeks drying time to get to market sooner with a good result...JJ


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## indaswamp (Oct 1, 2021)

Glad to see you posting again JJ, hope you are feeling better.


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## Casebrew (Oct 5, 2021)

*The following Recipe is for entertainment pruposes only! It is potentially Hazardous and is Not Supported by SMF STAFF or members...JJ*
*I removed the recipe as JJ said it could very well be hazardous and violates Food Safety rules so we will not be allowing it to be posted on SMF*

Okay, I jumped in head first with both feet.

Steep together overnight.
Filter, inject, wrap in plastic to diffuse brine.

I lack collagen wrap. I will either slit some middles and wrap like Ace wrapping my knee, or sew up a cloth bag. Or both? cloth to keep the casing tight?


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## Casebrew (Oct 6, 2021)

I decided to sew up a sack of beef middles. Cut 3 18" pieces lengthwise, sew together for width, end up with a sheet 18x18. Roll it around the meat and sew the last seam snugly.  It seamed a bit short to tie both ends so I sewed the bottom end too, to the shape of the meat.  Poked it all over with the same upholstery needle. 
	

		
			
		

		
	








Perhaps those of you who are convinced I am killing myself, think "un-ground salami"? Look up Skilandis? Big fat ball of salami in a pig's bladder. Perhaps 5 kilos? My brining certainly spread the chemicals as well as mixing it all in the ground meat.


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

Skilandis is a ground meat product, a salami. It is not unground. 

I'll also note that some of the moderators are trained and certified in food safety instruction.


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## Casebrew (Oct 6, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> Skilandis is a ground meat product, a salami. It is not unground.
> 
> I'll also note that some of the moderators are trained and certified in food safety instruction.



Duh. So instead of mixing the chemicals into ground meat, I injected them,  just like curing a ham. Same-o, same-o.

"Training" usually consistes of "This is the way WE do it." Oh, I am "trained in food safety" too.  7 years at McD's.


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

No, it's not same-o same-o.... that is what you do not understand, and simply don't care.



Casebrew said:


> just like curing a ham


An injected cured ham WILL BE COOKED, not dry cured! Yes, this matters, but you don't care.

I looked over your recipe before it got pulled, so in the interest of protecting anyone else following this thread, I will explain WHY your process is dangerous, and should NOT be done. Though I don't expect to reach you for the 4th time around.
The amount of salt you used was way too low for a DRY CURED whole muscle at 1.8%. This is calculated by adding the weight of the meat AND the liquid you used in your brine. At 1.8%, with added moisture, your meat will likely sour before it dries because of this low salt along with the added moisture will prolong drying.  Using the correct amount of salt: 1. Slows the growth of bad bacteria. 2.  pulls out moisture, thus speeding drying, 3. lowers Aw (water activity) by binding free water in the meat. This concentrates the salt in the meat as more water is removed, thus increasing the effect on slowing bad pathogens.

You went the opposite way with your process.

You did not use enough salt so bad bacteria will grow FASTER.
You ADDED water which will allow bad bacteria to flourish LONGER.
And you injected which not only introduced your kraut liquid, but also bad bacteria from the environment. Whole intact muscles lose moisture much much slower than salami that has been ground. A salami (ground meat) of the same diameter as a Culatello will finish in half the time.

I say odds of failure are extremely high.

All dry cured meats must contain a MINIMUM 2.75% salt according to the Italians, and 3% according to the USDA; with the exception of fast fermented salami.


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## chopsaw (Oct 6, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> No, it's not same-o same-o.... that is what you do not understand, and simply don't care.


Just let him talk to himself.  You tried to share your knowledge.


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## SmokinEdge (Oct 6, 2021)

chopsaw said:


> Just let him talk to himself.  You tried to share your knowledge.


100%


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 6, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> Training" usually consistes of "This is the way WE do it." Oh, I am "trained in food safety" too. 7 years at McD's.



My training included graduating #1 in my class at Culinary School. 5 years managing fine dining operations. And 6 years as a Culinary Instructor, and Certified ServSafe Food Safety Instructor.

If you wish to proceed with this experiment, that is your choice.
However, the combined expertise of myself and others have determined the recipe is unsafe. If you want to post your result, we will review it at that time. Until then, further arguing or questioning our Education or Experience, will result in termination of this thread. So let's keep this fun...JJ


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## Casebrew (Oct 6, 2021)

I don't understand what you guys see wrong with my rapidly getting the same chemicals into the meat. It's 8 hours since I bagged it in sewn middles, it is changing color already. Just like salami. Fermentation is starting more rapidly than a dry rub would do. Plus my 2% chemicals are staying inside-  no rub, wrap in plastic, wait 12 days, then rinse off any if the chemicals that remain on the outside. (that is the recipe for dry aged pork loin, )

I think there are many people in the world who can read the books, pass the test, live by the rules, and never grasp the basic concepts.  Not the best doctors.


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## Casebrew (Oct 6, 2021)

indaswamp said:


> All dry cured meats must contain a MINIMUM 2.75% salt according to the Italians, and 3% according to the USDA; with the exception of fast fermented salami.



Lessee, 4% in your brine, soak for days, then throw away the brine that still has half the salt in it, leaves how much in the meat?

8 hours after bagging in sewn together middles the color is darkening. Is that a fast enough ferment for you?


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

> Lessee, 4% in your brine, soak for days, then throw away the brine that still has half the salt in it, leaves how much in the meat?


Your recipe said 36g salt, 4# meat, 180ml liquid injection.....that's 1.8% salt...and it is unsafe. If you placed the meat IN a brine along with injecting, you did not state this in your post. 



> 8 hours after bagging in sewn together middles the color is darkening. Is that a fast enough ferment for you?



That is curing, not fermenting. You added no sugar so not much fermentation will occur.


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

Casebrew said:


> I don't understand what you guys see wrong with my rapidly getting the same chemicals into the meat. It's 8 hours since I bagged it in sewn middles, it is changing color already. Just like salami. Fermentation is starting more rapidly than a dry rub would do. Plus my 2% chemicals are staying inside-  no rub, wrap in plastic, wait 12 days, then rinse off any if the chemicals that remain on the outside. (that is the recipe for dry aged pork loin, )
> 
> I think there are many people in the world who can read the books, pass the test, live by the rules, and never grasp the basic concepts.  Not the best doctors.


You are conflating a whole lot of terms in this post.
Adding salt, cure and spices is CURING the meat.

Adding a starter culture with a sugar source is Fermentation. And no, even the fastest culture on the planet won't complete fermentation in 8 hours under refrigeration.


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

The entire point of DRY CURING is to DRY the meat....speed is not the goal, drying is.



> The basic process for whole muscle meat curing involves:
> 
> 
> *Curing (2-3 weeks): *This is the initial stage where the meat is packed with salt and spices. The process of osmosis and diffusion plays an important role in this stage. The cure mixture diffuses from the high outside concentration into the low concentration inside the meat, while water is attracted to the higher osmotic gradient that is found outside the meat. The time  necessary to spend in the cure will depend on the thickness of the meat.



Dry salt pulls moisture out of the meat. Thus lowering Aw and making it harder on bad pathogens to live. When curing is complete, the meat will have lost 3-4% moisture and Aw will be around 0.97-0.96. Wet cure won't do that, neither will injection. Aw will be over 1 because the meat has not lost water, and you added more by injecting.

2 methods:



> Excess cure: Excess curing is an older curing method that is exactly what it sounds like. The meat is packed into salt and allowed to stay there for a number of days. It is a tried and true method, but can result in overly salted and spiced meat.
> 
> 
> Equilibrium cure: Equilibrium curing is a newer curing method, which uses the scientifically determined minimum safe values for salt and nitrates. The cure is added to the meat at the desired concentrations, and the meat is allowed to equalize in the cure for a number of weeks. One of the benefits of using the equilibrium curing method is that you will arrive at your exact desired spice and salt level, without over saturating your meat product. I prefer the equilibrium method, and use it almost exclusively in my projects.


Excess cure is touchy. The Italians say 1 day per kilogram of meat weight. This is how it was done without refrigeration- the high salt concentration prevented the growth of bad pathogens on the meat surface.

Equilibrium dry cure - no liquid used, no chance of over salting, slower than excess curing.


Nowhere in that primer for beginners is there any wet brine.
http://gastrochemist.com/whole-muscle-cure-basics/


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## Casebrew (Oct 6, 2021)

Try again: The two methods to curing are:
A-
1) get chemicals into the meat
2) ferment , 
3) dry

OR
B-
1) get chemicals into the meat
2)cook

I'm using A, steps 1&2 done in 32 hours.


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## indaswamp (Oct 6, 2021)

Ok man...happy curing. I hope you don't kill someone since you know more than anyone here on dry curing meats.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 7, 2021)

This is unproductive and pointless arguing and no longer of value or entertaining...JJ
Closed to further comment.


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