# Lo-salt Cured and Smoked Turkey



## pops6927 (Sep 5, 2010)

Since I've had a second stroke a few weeks ago, I have to make some changes in my diet and the way I do things.  I don't want to give up the one hobby I truly enjoy, I just have to make some modifications.  You may see me come out with some crazy (who, me?) new methods trying to reduce fats and calories in smoked foods and I will certainly let you know how bad it is BEFORE you try anything I post, I promise!
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






My first attempt will be a lo-salt cured and smoked turkey.

I bought a small hen turkey (about 12 lbs) and thawed it then put it down to pickle.  However I cut the amount of salt in ½.  My 'normal' recipe calls for:

1 cup salt

1 cup sugar*

1 cup brown sugar*

1 tbsp DQ cure

1 gallon water

This time I made up my cure with half the salt:

½ cup salt

1 cup sugar*

1 cup brown sugar*

1 tbsp DQ cure 

1 gallon water

(I substitute Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] for regular sugar and brown sugar as I am diabetic)

I am trying it out on my unsuspecting family Monday... my oldest son is having his annual get together for Labor day as it's his birthday also and that's what I'm bringing!

I will be doing subsequent turkeys this fall and may try to cut it down another 50% to ¼ cup; I'll let you know!


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## bassman (Sep 5, 2010)

I'll just bet that's going to work out just fine, Pops!  What kind of cure is DQ?  I may have to try your method as I've never cured a turkey.  Don't forget the pics.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 5, 2010)

This is Great Pops !

A step by step on anything you cook would be appreciated by many of us.

That promise is a must too---I like that.

This will be more for my "How To" file,

Bear


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## pops6927 (Sep 5, 2010)

These are pics of my maiden smoke with the smokehouse doing a cured chicken and turkey.  The pics I'll be posting tomorrow won't look like these, they will be much darker in the smokehouse, it's already well used!

DQ cure is through Butcher Packer

http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=237_12&products_id=56

As it says in the description

"..All pink tinted cures have the same sodium nitrite concentration, which is 6.25%. Prague Powder # 1, Insta-Cure, Modern Cure are all the same. The pink color is not what gives the meat a reddish hue - that is done by the curing process. Using DQ CURE, your sausage will be ready to cook or smoke as soon as you have it stuffed (there is no need to wait). When used in a brine solution, the reason for allowing the product to set for 24 hours is to make sure that all of the curing compounds have had a chance to be distributed evenly into the meat. After the meat has been cured and cooked, it will have a longer shelf life than uncured cooked meat. Use 4 oz per 100 lb.

Note: some *books reference*  this product as _DC Cure_  or _DC Curing Salt_. .."


> *Bassman*
> 
> I'll just bet that's going to work out just fine, Pops!  What kind of cure is DQ?  I may have to try your method as I've never cured a turkey.  Don't forget the pics.


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## meateater (Sep 5, 2010)

Pops, I'm looking forward to the end result. I've been avoiding salt as much as possible the last few years myself. Thanks.


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## pops6927 (Sep 6, 2010)

Turkey is on, 4:30 am.  Took it out of the brine, rinsed it off and let it drain in the sink while I got a stockinette (you can buy 100 of them from Butcher Packer) and a ham hook (ditto), then hung in smokehouse, a few progressive views;































... and will reside there until done.  I will probe it in about 4 hours.  Being pickled it won't be affected to much extent with the danger zone, even though it only has half the salt content, it still has the full measure of curing salt which is the main factor.


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## pops6927 (Sep 6, 2010)

Probed the turkey and it's going good, 135° at 10:30 am, getting some color too!













Target time will be 2pm, should be around 170° to 180°, and can hold it running only one burner vs. two at around that temp if need be, but should be done in plenty of time and take it hot to the party!  You can see the thin blue, just added a couple more wood chunks.


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## rw willy (Sep 6, 2010)

Looking good.

Congrats on taking a huge change in stride.  Don't give up your hobby, I enjoy your pictorials too much.

Thanks


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## pops6927 (Sep 6, 2010)

Got it smoked, taking it to the son's house!



















Letcha know it tastes!


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## Bearcarver (Sep 6, 2010)

You're still the man Pops!

Nothing can look that good without tasting GREAT !

Bear


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## pops6927 (Sep 6, 2010)

The turkey received a good reception... tried to get some carving pics, but by the time the smoke cleared, this is what was left...







Guess the lo-salt was a big hit!  Everyone said it was the best one I've ever done!

Thank you so much for viewing in!


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## arnie (Sep 6, 2010)

Nicely done, Pops!

I have been looking into trying lower sodium smokes also, but have not taken the plunge yet.

I looked at substituting Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji] for the sugar, but was scared off by the price. 

Is there an economical way to lower the sugar or am I just going to have to suck it up and go it? 

Thanks for blazing the trail.


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## richoso1 (Sep 6, 2010)

Pops, good to know you're still in the game. Thanks for the heath tips, I know there are some of us who will make good use of your information. Kepp up the with the great postinghs.

Rich


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## pops6927 (Sep 7, 2010)

Arnie said:


> Nicely done, Pops!
> 
> I have been looking into trying lower sodium smokes also, but have not taken the plunge yet.
> 
> ...


  You can get the Walmart brand of Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji], that's what I use and it's about 20% cheaper.  Have you had your glucose tested lately? Being diabetic it's a must-do for me, regardless the price.  See my thread or Wiki on Risk Factors for Strokes for more information.


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## bassman (Sep 7, 2010)

Pops, thanks for the info on the DQ.  I have used Tender Quick and Insta Cure #1, just hadn't heard of the others.  Good looking turkey you have there.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 7, 2010)

Hey Pops,

That low-salt pickle must really be bad for the health of the Turkey though.

Look at your last picture---Nothing left of him but bones!
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Great job,

Bear


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## arnie (Sep 7, 2010)

Pops6927 said:


> You can get the Walmart brand of Splenda[emoji]174[/emoji], that's what I use and it's about 20% cheaper.  Have you had your glucose tested lately? Being diabetic it's a must-do for me, regardless the price.  See my thread or Wiki on Risk Factors for Strokes for more information.


After two years of stabbing my fingers I am weaning myself away from it (dropped it 25 points). 

It took a new doctor and a lot of hard work, but the weight is down and I am now off of most of the meds I was taking. 

I am still wrestling a bit with cholesterol and triglyceride, but I feel much better.  

Your point is well taken. The Wiki is both well done and informative. 

Thanks and I’m glad you’re getting back up to snuff, I have much to learn.


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## northern greenhorn (Sep 7, 2010)

Nice bird Pops, and thanks for all the great info, I'm not a big salt fan, so I'll try your brine next time.


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## squirrel (Nov 10, 2010)

Pops - I'm a little confused, so is DQ the same thing and the Prague Powder #1? That's what I have and was wondering if it would be the same? Also where do you get the net bags you hang the turkeys in? Thanks!


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## Bearcarver (Nov 10, 2010)

Squirrel,

Cure ----Post #4

Starts out "All Pink Tinted Cures"........

Link to net bags----Post #6


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## Bearcarver (Nov 10, 2010)

Pops,

Maybe I missed it, but I can't find how long it stayed in that brine of yours.

Also, I would assume that both brines would call for the same length of time for that size Turkey (12 pounds)?

Thanks,

Bear


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## squirrel (Nov 10, 2010)

I read that Bear, but it doesn't say that the DQ is the same as prague #1. You know you have to spell it out for me. I clicked the link and it shows it as a pink salt, so I am to assume it is the same thing. I did miss the net bag thing though. Too much caffeine this morning. I have to go gather the last of my nuts today so I need a little extra energy.


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## Bearcarver (Nov 10, 2010)

Squirrel said:


> I read that Bear, but it doesn't say that the DQ is the same as prague #1. You know you have to spell it out for me. I clicked the link and it shows it as a pink salt, so I am to assume it is the same thing. I did miss the net bag thing though. Too much caffeine this morning. I have to go gather the last of my nuts today so I need a little extra energy.


You can wait for Pops on that, but I took it as all pink tinted, and I thought they were all pink, except TQ. I however am just going by what I read--I haven't had either yet, except TQ.

Pops will give you a more positive answer.

I saw Cabela's has those bags too. Probably more expensive, but I have one 30 miles from here--no shipping.

Bear


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## smokingnd (Nov 17, 2010)

I clicked his link and that DQ looks a lot like my instacure #1, I have seen other recipes for doing this and they called for instaure #1.  I'm curious find out the answer.   Martin


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## solaryellow (Nov 17, 2010)

It is the same thing as Instacure #1.
 


smokingnd said:


> I clicked his link and that DQ looks a lot like my instacure #1, I have seen other recipes for doing this and they called for instaure #1.  I'm curious find out the answer.   Martin


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## smokingnd (Nov 17, 2010)

So instacure #1 could be used for curing a turkey?  I saw someone else mention maybe using #2 for curing a turkey.  Similar stuff just that #2 is released slowly over time.


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## pineywoods (Nov 17, 2010)

All pink tinted cures have the same sodium nitrite concentration, which is 6.25%. Prague Powder # 1, Insta-Cure, Modern Cure are all the same. The pink color is not what gives the meat a reddish hue - that is done by the curing process.

That includes DQ #1


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## thebarbequeen (Nov 17, 2010)

Can there be a Wiki or added categary for health-specific recipes?  This is great information, Thanks Pops and so glad you're doing well.


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## solaryellow (Nov 18, 2010)

Yes. I am not certain why bbally mentioned cure #2 in the other thread over cure #1. I used Pops' recipe above (the original version) about two weeks ago and it came out great.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/100266/cured-turkey
 


smokingnd said:


> So instacure #1 could be used for curing a turkey?  I saw someone else mention maybe using #2 for curing a turkey.  Similar stuff just that #2 is released slowly over time.


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

solaryellow said:


> Yes. I am not certain why bbally mentioned cure #2 in the other thread over cure #1. I used Pops' recipe above (the original version) about two weeks ago and it came out great.
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/100266/cured-turkey
> 
> ...




 Instacure 1 is fine if you are going to use normal smoking temperatures and cure for less then five days.   And take the bird over the 140 mark and hold it for at least 10 minutes.

In the quote below you can see several problems with using cure #1:

5 to six days of cure time in the pickle, this is a concern because we must assume a frozen turkey is being thawed and cured.  Even if this was a fresh killed bird the day six is becoming a problem on any haccp plan.

The comment that make cure number 2 mandatory is the comment that we will slow smoke with an AMS for 8-10 hours "then cook the buzzard" which indicates a low temp smoke for way to long for cure one to be affective.  This kind of modification is taking the bird from a cure 1 recipe and subjecting it to cure 2 needs due to time temp considerations.

I am all for experimenting with recipes, I am not comfortable letting someone move into the danger zone for 8 to 10 hours without additional protection from food pathogens.  So to smoke a turkey for 8 to 10 hours them temperature will be very low or you will end up with a cinder for a product.  Cure two is a must or the smoke time must move from 8-10 hours to 4 to 6 hours with a minimum temp of 200 F while smoking.  Otherwise go cure to or meet your medical deductible.



> I'm thinking about curing a turkey "wet brine". Here's the idea, thaw and rinse the turkey and place in a food grade bucket to place in the fridge. I'm thinking one cup of kosher salt per gallon of distilled water and use enough to cover the bird. The brine will have been premade and in the fridge cold.  Then I'm thinking about adding 1/4 tsp. pink salt per pound of turkey. I'm hoping to pickle the bird for at least 5-6 days. What do you think. I want to long smoke the bird with my AMS 8-10 hours before cooking the buzzard.  [\quote]  [\quote]
> 
> Cold smoking a turkey with an amaz n smoker at temperatures under 180 F will require the protection afforded by cure number 2.  With out the 0.64 percent sodium nitrate you are gambling when cold smoking a turkey for an extended period of time.


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## pokey (Nov 18, 2010)

This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?

I'm planning to cure half a turkey for Bird-day. Can I use TQ for this? I know it's not low-salt, but I don't know how it fits in with this #1 vs #2 discussion. Looking at the Morton's curing guide, I believe they had a recipe for Turkey using TQ that cured for 24 hours (with injection).

TIA


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

Pokey said:


> This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?
> 
> I'm planning to cure half a turkey for Bird-day. Can I use TQ for this? I know it's not low-salt, but I don't know how it fits in with this #1 vs #2 discussion. Looking at the Morton's curing guide, I believe they had a recipe for Turkey using TQ that cured for 24 hours (with injection).
> 
> TIA




 One can use cure 1 or cure 2 or TQ for doing a turkey.  But each is used for specific smoking conditions.

Cure 1 for normal smoking temperatures 140 F to as high as you want to dare.

Cure 2 for long cure times, curing times of 4 to 6 days on turkeys that were frozen and thawed to then cure.  Or for cold smoking a turkey for cold service.

TenderQuick is not a cure, but a salt that gives meat cure properties.  Using tenderquick requires you to use all food safety time temp rules.  With the exception of doing fish.

Show the recipe of what you are thinking, there are plenty of people that can help you (myself included) make sure you are safe and understand the whys.

Problems with cure 1 and 2 confusion are based mostly on opinions from people who do not understand the real reasons for cure 2's use.  And that leads to lots of food poisoning problems every single year.

Making stuff with TQ is not curing.. it is following a recipe.  Making stuff that is hot finished with cure 1 is curing with a complete nitrite conversion gauranteed by temperature finish.

Making stuff with cure 2 is a high level curing method, you need to totally understand why and when it is called for if you are going to venture on your own.

As the temperature duration shows in the quote in my post above.... it is really easy to cross the line and think you are safe when you are not if you don't understand the principles of why and when.


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## pokey (Nov 18, 2010)

Thanks, but forgive my denseness (density?). Per Mortons web site, TQ is:

"This mix is a fast cure product that has been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad, and sablefish. It is a combination of high grade salt and other quality curing ingredients that can be used for both dry and sweet pickle curing. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix contains salt, the main preserving agent; sugar, both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, curing agents that also contribute to development of color and flavor; and propylene glycol to keep the mixture uniform."

I thought that by having sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite it is a true cure, and by dilluting the trites and trates with salt that they are making the quantities to be used for smallish batches of meat more easily measured by those of us who are all thumbs. They also limit our ability to use less salt than what they call for.

Anyway, I was planning to cure half a bird with TQ mixed with brown sugar as per Morton's curing guide (I don't have it with me at work, so I can't get exact here). I recall them having a recipe that called for injection and cured in 24 hours. The other half a bird I was going to apply a rub to (all over and under the skin) and let sit over night. (The bird is an 18# Shadybrook Farms "natural" which they've already "enhanced", which I interpret as meaning that it's been injected, so no brining is advisable.) Then I was planning to smoke both at 250* until I got an IT of 165*.

My questions about cold vs hot and whether the cured bird is edible were really for knowledge rather than for near term use!


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## solaryellow (Nov 18, 2010)

Ah. I was looking at it from the filter of Pops' recipe. Glad you picked up on those details and thanks for the additional education. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			





 


bbally said:


> Instacure 1 is fine if you are going to use normal smoking temperatures and cure for less then five days.   And take the bird over the 140 mark and hold it for at least 10 minutes.
> 
> In the quote below you can see several problems with using cure #1:
> 
> ...


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## smokingnd (Nov 18, 2010)

Thanks bbally, i understand the difference between the two cures, I guess i was just wondering if the DQ that was mentioned could be replaced with #1 or #2, i see the need for #2 now, I had just never heard of a cured turkey so I was wondering about the use of DQ versus instacure.  Looking forward to qview I am ver intersted to see how it turns out.  Thanks again


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## Bearcarver (Nov 18, 2010)

bbally said:


> Pokey said:
> 
> 
> > This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?
> ...


This is going to be a rare occassion. I have never disagreed with bbally. Bbally, you are my hero, when it comes to safety, but I don't understand why you say TQ is not a cure. I use it to cure Belly Bacon, Buckboard Bacon, Canadian Bacon, Turkey Bacon, Venison Bacon, Dried Beef, etc, etc.

Maybe you mean because it is not a cure without the added curing nitrites & nitrates that are added to it, but it isn't called Tender Quick until those things are added.

I don't know why you do not consider it a cure. 

And when I use TQ, I do not use the 40 to 140 in 4 hours rule, or any of that type of rule. I low & slow Bacon, Dried Beef & the rest, just like I do fish, because TQ has in fact cured those meats. The only rule I can think of offhand that I have to follow is cooking the foods to 152˚ for some, and 160˚ for others before I eat it, but I would have to do that with the cure #1 types also, so I am still confused as to why you say TQ is not a cure.

If I'm wrong, please explain before I continue. I have 10 pounds of Pork loin on their 4th day in "TQ cure", and I will be low & slow smoking it for about 8 hours on Thanksgiving.

Thanks,

Bear


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## meateater (Nov 18, 2010)

Alright I'm starting to understand the difference between sodium nitrite aka pink salt and sodium nitrate for longer curing aka genoa or hard salami or any hard cured meat "no jokes please" . I'm glad I bought the Rytek Kutas book. Finally had a chance to read some last couple of nights. I'm sticking with Pops recipe here, its got qview. Somehow my post got transfered here, sorry POPS for the intrusion. HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  May you all be turkey coma induced.


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## fpnmf (Nov 18, 2010)

OK..now I am a little confused. I am fairly new to this smoking thing.

My confusion lies with the different views on cures.

Having bought and read the Kutas book and Charcuterie it seems like Bear is correct.

I have used both TQ and pink salt several times.

So.. I got the packages they came in out.

The pink salt is very clear about what it and how to use it as is the TQ.

The TQ is very clear in the instructions and on the front of the package it is a meat cure.

I do see that TQ says ..rub cure into meat and into the fridge for 4-8 hours to cure.

If that's the case why am I keeping the bellies in there for 9 days?

I would love to see a meeting of the minds on the cure confusion. I have seen that I am not the only confused person.

To agree and solve this would make a great WIKI.

 Have a great day!

  Craig


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## meateater (Nov 18, 2010)

I think Mod's should lock this post, intrusion on a members experience.


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## beer-b-q (Nov 18, 2010)

bbally said:


> One can use cure 1 or cure 2 or TQ for doing a turkey.  But each is used for specific smoking conditions.
> 
> Cure 1 for normal smoking temperatures 140 F to as high as you want to dare.
> 
> ...


Bob, according to The Morton Site they are a Cure...


> 4) Are there specific uses for Morton Meat Curing products? 
> *Morton Salt manufactures and markets three complete meat curing products: Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji], Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji].*
> 
> *Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) are fast meat cure products that have been developed as cures for fresh and frozen meat, poultry and game. Both Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) may be used for either dry curing or sweet pickle curing. *Generally, sweet pickle curing is used for smaller cuts of meat and poultry, while dry curing is used for larger cuts, such as shoulders or hams.
> ...





> [h1]Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup] Tender Quick[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup][/h1]*This mix is a fast cure product that has been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad, and sablefish. It is a combination of high grade salt and other quality curing ingredients that can be used for both dry and sweet pickle curing. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix contains salt, the main preserving agent; sugar, **both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, curing agents that also contribute to development of color and flavor;** and propylene glycol to keep the mixture uniform. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix can be used interchangeably with Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) mix. *It is *NOT a meat tenderizer.*
> 
> *CAUTION: This curing salt is designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipe. It should not be used at higher levels as results will be inconsistent, cured meats will be too salty, and the finished products may be unsatisfactory. *Curing salts should be used only in meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad and sablefish. Curing salts cannot be substituted for regular salt in other food recipes. Always keep meat refrigerated (36° to 40°F) while curing.


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

> > Bob, according to The Morton Site they are a Cure...
> 
> 
> [h1]Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup] Tender Quick[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup][/h1]strong>
> ...


I don't mean it does not cure, and I am not saying it's not a good product.

I mean it is not a cure formulation as in Prague powder 1 or Prague powder 2.

It is, as it states in its label above:

Curing salt designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipes.

The site then goes on to state the recipes and formulations they have designed for it.

I know a lot of people use it, experiment with it, and have great success with it.  But it is not a class of cure like Prague 1, Cure 1, Pink 1 which is always 6.25 percent sodium nitrite.  The rest is always sodium cloride as a carrier.

This allows us to use it properly and calculate how to reach the proper levels for given weights of meat.

When using cure, it is very important to never exceed the recommended amount of 4 ounces of Cure #1 in 100 pounds of meat. Equivalently this is 2 teaspoons of cure 1 for 10 pounds of chopped meat.  The maximum allowable amount of sodium nitrite is governed by regulations and is limited to 0.25 ounces per 100 pounds of chopped meat. With Cure #1 at a 1:15 dilution (meaning in a pound of Cure #1 one .is sodium nitrite and the remaining 15 ounces salt), we get the proper amount at a rate of 4 ounces added to 100 lb of meat.

This can be used to calculate its use for any amount of meat you want to cure.

Likewise Prague 2, Cure 2 and Pink 2 (usually red) is always contains 6.25 percent sodium nitrite and 0.64 ounces of sodium nitrate.

This allows us to calculate the protections required for pounds of meat.  Sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate are limited to 2.75 ounces per 100 pounds.  This is very important.

Sodium nitrite is quite toxic to humans with the lethal dose being about 4 grams of the compound. As little as 22 mg/kg of body weight can cause death. This is about 2.2 grams for a body mass of 100 kg. Thus, there is enough sodium nitrite in 2 ounces of Prague powder #1 to kill a person dead.

I am not trying to scare you all, I just want you to know with quick products and little experiments you should understand the rules above or you could hurt someone or yourself.

This also means that prague 1 or 2 can not be substituted for tenderquick and any recipe calling for tenderquick cannot have cure 1 or 2 substituted.

But the real problem is the concentrations of the components of tenderquick are not listed on the package so how do you know what the safe level use is for a given product to be greated?  That is why they make recipes and formulations so it can be used following the guidelines to make some cool products at home.

The fact remains tenderquick is not a cure it does not meat guidelines for cure 1 or 2.  Therefore it is a cure mix similar to a sausage cure mix or jerky cure mix.. it has lots of components in it designed to create an end product.  While I agree the mix can be used on lots of things, it cannot be used as a cure in a recipe.  It can only be used as a mix to cure something.

I don't care if you lock the thread or not, I am only giving out information so people can learn.  I am not picking on a product, I like the stuff it gets people into making cured smoked products.  But it is not a cure, the ratios are wrong.  But the tenderquick mix will cure meat.

Please when you read my comments realize I am giving out information not picking on anything or anyone...


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

Pokey said:


> I thought that by having sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite it is a true cure, and by dilluting the trites and trates with salt that they are making the quantities to be used for smallish batches of meat more easily measured by those of us who are all thumbs. They also limit our ability to use less salt than what they call for.
> 
> Anyway, I was planning to cure half a bird with TQ mixed with brown sugar as per Morton's curing guide (I don't have it with me at work, so I can't get exact here). I recall them having a recipe that called for injection and cured in 24 hours. The other half a bird I was going to apply a rub to (all over and under the skin) and let sit over night. (The bird is an 18# Shadybrook Farms "natural" which they've already "enhanced", which I interpret as meaning that it's been injected, so no brining is advisable.) Then I was planning to smoke both at 250* until I got an IT of 165*.
> 
> My questions about cold vs hot and whether the cured bird is edible were really for knowledge rather than for near term use!


The product does meat the standard to be called Cure 1 or Prague 1 or Instacure 1 so it is not a cure.  To be Cure 1 it must be 6.25 percent sodium nitrite and the rest salt.  TQ does not meat that specification and cannot be a cure.  But the product is a premix cure and as such it does cure meat.  But can never be substituted for Cure 1 or Cure 2.

As long as you are using the Morton's guide you will be fine.  I T of 165 F is fine as well.

OK so you should have the hot and cold answer or at least my version of it.  Hope it helped.


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

Bearcarver said:


> bbally said:
> 
> 
> > This is going to be a rare occassion. I have never disagreed with bbally. Bbally, you are my hero, when it comes to safety, but I don't understand why you say TQ is not a cure. I use it to cure Belly Bacon, Buckboard Bacon, Canadian Bacon, Turkey Bacon, Venison Bacon, Dried Beef, etc, etc.
> ...


TQ cures meat no doubt about it. 

In the industry Cure 1, Prague 1, Instacure 1, Fast Cure 1, and all the others called Cure 1 or 2 are specific formulas ratios of salt to sodium nitrite and salt to sodium nitrite and nitrate that can be counted on... that is what cure is.. always. It is that way so every butcher shop, restaurant, deli can create safe food to meat the USDA guidelines and rules. 

TQ does not meat the ratios to be called a cure.

Therefore it falls in the category of a premix.  It is a premix to cure meats as directed by there recipes or guidelines for use.  But it cannot sit in place of Cure ... ever.

I did not say it would not cure meat, I said it is not a Cure... it does not contain the ratios needed to be categoried as a cure.   And the only other ingredient in proper cure can be salt as a carrier.  The ratio must always be the same.  So it is not a cure.  I beleive in their website somewhere they say it cannot be substituted for Cure 1 or Cure 2.


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## eman (Nov 18, 2010)

Ok maybe im a dumbaz But if it safely cures meat which everyone agrees it does .How can it not be a cure??? Magic?


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## bbally (Nov 18, 2010)

eman said:


> Ok maybe im a dumbaz But if it safely cures meat which everyone agrees it does .How can it not be a cure??? Magic?




 It is a premix or cure recipe.

To be cure it means it could be used in any recipe calling cure 1 or 2.  It does not meet the specification for either.  Therefore it is a premix, yes it cures meat. But you cannot take a recipe that calls for Cure and add it to that recipe.  It is not the formula for Cure 1 or 2 so it cannot be used in a sausage or meat recipe calling for Cure.


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## scarbelly (Nov 19, 2010)

Bob

So we all understand - can you site the reference you use to distinguish that to be a cure it must contain 6%  sodium nitrate?  That way ALL of us will have the same info so we can refer to it. I really appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness but it would be good for all of us to be able to read it as well. I tried to look for it in the USDA site and can not find it, and would love to have it as a reference for the future.

Thanks for all you do to keep us safe


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## pops6927 (Nov 19, 2010)

I pickle it, totally unthawed 1st, for three days maximum.


Bearcarver said:


> Pops,
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but I can't find how long it stayed in that brine of yours.
> 
> ...


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## beer-b-q (Nov 19, 2010)

bbally said:


> I don't mean it does not cure, and I am not saying it's not a good product.
> 
> I mean it is not a cure formulation as in Prague powder 1 or Prague powder 2.
> 
> ...







Scarbelly said:


> Bob
> 
> So we all understand - can you site the reference you use to distinguish that to be a cure it must contain 6%  sodium nitrate?  That way ALL of us will have the same info so we can refer to it. I really appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness but it would be good for all of us to be able to read it as well.* I tried to look for it in the USDA site and can not find it, and would love to have it as a reference for the future.*
> 
> Thanks for all you do to keep us safe


Here are a couple good articles...


> [h1]USDA Meat Curing Requirements[/h1]
> By Mark Fitzpatrick, eHow Contributor
> 
> updated: August 23, 2010
> ...





> [h1]Nitrite in Meat[/h1]
> *Richard J. Epley, Paul B. Addis and Joseph J. Warthesen*
> 
> 
> ...


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## beer-b-q (Nov 19, 2010)

bbally said:


> I don't mean it does not cure, and I am not saying it's not a good product.
> 
> I mean it is not a cure formulation as in Prague powder 1 or Prague powder 2.
> 
> ...







Scarbelly said:


> Bob
> 
> So we all understand - can you site the reference you use to distinguish that to be a cure it must contain 6%  sodium nitrate?  That way ALL of us will have the same info so we can refer to it. I really appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness but it would be good for all of us to be able to read it as well.* I tried to look for it in the USDA site and can not find it, and would love to have it as a reference for the future.*
> 
> Thanks for all you do to keep us safe


Here are a couple good articles...


> [h1]USDA Meat Curing Requirements[/h1]
> By Mark Fitzpatrick, eHow Contributor
> 
> updated: August 23, 2010
> ...





> [h1]Nitrite in Meat[/h1]
> *Richard J. Epley, Paul B. Addis and Joseph J. Warthesen*
> 
> 
> ...


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## tjohnson (Nov 19, 2010)

Great Information Guys!!!

I have used both Cure #1 and Morton's TQ with good results. I personally have moved to using Cure #1, because like Pops, I need to reduce my salt intake, and I can control the amount of salt I use in my recipes.

I think what's most important, is that you "Follow Specific Directions for the Curing Process You Are Using" 

We definitely need  WIKI...

TJ


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## Bearcarver (Nov 19, 2010)

Everything in this post written in BLUE is why Bearcarver says Tender Quick is in fact a meat cure, and is actually much better for Dry Curing than any of the other cures---The Key word in that sentence is "DRY".

OK,

I'm not going to say Cure #1 and Prague Powder are not cures because they don't have the same formulation as Tender Quick.

I will say that if you remove everything added to TQ, and just left the ingredients that are in all of the other "pink" salts the amount of those ingredients would be the same in TQ as in the others. If it was not, Morton Salt would not be able to sell it as "CURE"!

Here are the ingredients in Tender Quick:

*Ingredients*
Salt, Sugar, Sodium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrite, Propylene Glycol.

Here is my reason for liking Tender Quick even more than the others-------BECAUSE I LIKE TO DRY CURE SAFELY !!!!!!!

If you do a brine cure like Pops, the pink salts are definitely the way to go, because you can regulate how much salt & sugar you add to that tiny amount of pink salt that is called for in that brine, and Tender Quick already has salt & sugar mixed with their cure part of their cure formula.

But here is why TQ in my book is much better than any of the other cures for dry curing!

ONE OUNCE of pink salt is all you are supposed to use on 25 pounds of meat!

Now think about that---Can you evenly distribute 1 OUNCE of pink salt on the outside of 25 pounds of meat???

Of course not---That would be humanly impossible!

So how do you do it?

You have to mix other things, like salt & sugar to that pink salt, in order to have enough particles to spread around on all of that meat surface!

Now does that mean that you are no longer using cure???   NO!

It does however mean that you are still not spreading your cure evenly on ALL of that meat, because you can't mix those ingredients evenly in your mix.

Some of your meat will get more cure than other parts of your meat!!!!   That's not good!

You can solve this dilemma very easily, by using Tender Quick. No I don't own stocks in Morton's---I just read a lot!

Morton's takes the same cure we like to call "pink salt" and mixes salt, and sugar, and a couple other things to make the quantity of granules large enough to be able to spread on ALL THAT MEAT!

So now you ask, "If I can't mix my pink salt with other things well enough to evenly distribute it on ALL THAT MEAT, how can Morton's do it?

THAT IS BECAUSE one of those ingredients Morton's uses in their mix is Propylene Glycol.

That "PG" is added, because it guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even for the smallest amounts.

Here is how they put it: Due to the miscibility with both polar and non-polar substances the propylene glycol—a derivative of natural gas—is commonly used as a coupling agent/carrier in a widely diverse variety of food products. It’s use guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even for the smallest amounts.

Why it was developed?
To be effective in curing meat, there must be the correct amount of nitrates and nitrites evenly distributed throughout the curing mixture, and the curing mixture then evenly applied to the meat. Too little is ineffective whilst excessive amounts result in “nitrite burn” and should be avoided as it's a possible carcinogenic. However, it is nearly impossible to create the proper curing mixture in the home environment, as the salt, sugar and nitrates/nitrites cannot be mixed effectively and uniformly. Simply combining the ingredients is ineffective, because "stratification"—the settling out of the ingredients—occurs, so that the nitrates and nitrites will not be distributed evenly throughout the mixture. The meat curing is therefore also uneven, and spoilage often results/occurs. 

Thank You,

Bear

This (below) is one of the places I got the above information:

According to information supplied by Morton's Consumer Affairs (see following posting) the amount of sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and sodium nitrite (NaNO2) present in Tender Quick are at the 0.5 % level each.

Why it is used?
For centuries, though not realized or understood—nitrates and nitrites naturally present in sea salts have been curing meats. The presence of these reduced the risk of botulism poisoning occurring during the curing period, and contributed to the change in the meat's colour. The transformation from the colour of raw meat to the typical “cured pink” colour associated with that of properly cured hams and cured sausages.

What do the ingredients do?
The salt aids the flavour of the meat and through the process of osmosis and the reduced water acivity (aw) helps to preserve the meat. The sugar counteracts the hardness of the astringent salt. Simply put, the nitrate converts into nitrite, which turns into a gas, and it is this which imparts the cured flavour and colour to the meat. *Due to the miscibility with both polar and non-polar substances the propylene glycol—a derivative of natural gas—is commonly used as a coupling agent/carrier in a widely diverse variety of food products. It’s use guarantees that the ingredients are distributed evenly in the proper ratio, even for the smallest amounts.

Why it was developed?
To be effective in curing meat, there must be the correct amount of nitrates and nitrites evenly distributed throughout the curing mixture, and the curing mixture then evenly applied to the meat. Too little is ineffective whilst excessive amounts result in “nitrite burn” and should be avoided as it's a possible carcinogenic. However, it is nearly impossible to create the proper curing mixture in the home environment, as the salt, sugar and nitrates/nitrites cannot be mixed effectively and uniformly. Simply combining the ingredients is ineffective, because "stratification"—the settling out of the ingredients—occurs, so that the nitrates and nitrites will not be distributed evenly throughout the mixture. The meat curing is therefore also uneven, and spoilage often results/occurs. *

The USDA at present have set the maximum ingoing nitrate and nitrite limits for comminuted products at 156 ppm and 1 718 ppm respectfully. For the 156 ppm figure this works out to be ¼ ounce of nitrite per 100 pounds of meat block, and for the 1 718 ppm this works out to be 2 ¾ ounces of nitrate per 100 pounds of meat block. Note: ppm equals parts per million.

Years ago, in the 1930s, the Morton Salt Company developed “Morton’s Sugar-curing Smoke-Salt” the precursor to today’s Tender Quick, so that the home cook could safely cure meat.


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## bbally (Nov 19, 2010)

Scarbelly said:


> Bob
> 
> So we all understand - can you site the reference you use to distinguish that to be a cure it must contain 6%  sodium nitrate?  That way ALL of us will have the same info so we can refer to it. I really appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness but it would be good for all of us to be able to read it as well. I tried to look for it in the USDA site and can not find it, and would love to have it as a reference for the future.
> 
> Thanks for all you do to keep us safe




 I don't have the food manufacturers standards in my library, but I will track it down for you.

Mean time I think if you read the processor inspectors handbook you will see clearly where the 6.25 percent comes from.  It is used in most the calculations.

http://prochefblog.com/public_pics/foodcode2009/cureprocess.pdf


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## beer-b-q (Nov 19, 2010)

> [h1]Sausage making[/h1]
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> ...


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## gotarace (Jul 2, 2011)

Bumping to top ...good read ...thanks POPS !!!


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## SmokinAl (Jul 2, 2011)

There sure have been a lot of threads on curing meat lately. Someone suggested that a few of you experts get together & come up with a WIKI that can be referenced by all the members with easy to use measurements for all the cures wet & dry. The new folks need to have access to good info that follows the USDA guidelines. To me it seems simple. Just follow the instructions on the package of cure you are using.


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## dreegle1 (Dec 29, 2011)

Just need to ask...How long should a turkey cure/pickle for? If it is a long cure, does the brine need to be injected? I have a 10 1/2lb bird brining in Pops brine, for 2 days now, and am just wondering if I have ruined it...


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## sprky (Dec 29, 2011)

Dreegle1 said:


> Just need to ask...How long should a turkey cure/pickle for? If it is a long cure, does the brine need to be injected? I have a 10 1/2lb bird brining in Pops brine, for 2 days now, and am just wondering if I have ruined it...


Nope as long as it has stayed 40 or below you are fine. I had 3 in brine for 4 days and they were good. That reminds me I gotta finish up my Great Turkey experiment post with the results. Dang CRS kicking in again.


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## pops6927 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'll 10-4 gb on that too!


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## pops6927 (Dec 29, 2011)

heh heh... sorry, showing my age... decode that for all you non-CB'r era folk, that's "ten-four good buddy", i.e. I agree.. lol!


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## dreegle1 (Dec 29, 2011)

LOL...Oh for a return to the days of the 27Mhz cbs'...running from the bears, and being able to drive more than 200 feet without having to stop at traffic lights and roundabouts...

Ok, so the turkey is still good, and I was hoping that it ws small enough that I didn't need to inject it. Thank you.


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## dreegle1 (Dec 30, 2011)

Pops, Here is the result that you inspired me to create...I did have the problem with keeping temps down in my smoker, so I hot smoked it at 225F until I got internal temp of 165 (pretty uniformly...I stuck the thermometer in several places i/e thick of thigh, breast on both sides. It is definitely juicy and resting atm. Cured, smoked roast turkey for New Years Eve dinner. Thank you for your massively helpful tutorial


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## pops6927 (Dec 31, 2011)

Looks delicious and I hope you and your guests enjoy it!  Please post some pics of the results and the party!  Happy New Year!


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## dreegle1 (Dec 31, 2011)

Sorry Pops, It was just my family (wife and 5 kids), and most of it disappeared as fast as I carved it (Seriously...I turned my back, literally for two seconds to grab my sharpening steel, and a drumstick and wing disappeared". The term"no chewing required, melts in the mouth" springs to mind. Thanks again, best turkey I have ever had...including restaurants!


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## dreegle1 (Dec 23, 2012)

Pops, thank you :) Here is a pic of (part of ) our Christmas dinner...The maple syrup/dijon mustard glazed ham is still in the smoker.













Christmas turkey 002.JPG



__ dreegle1
__ Dec 23, 2012






Followed your recipe...but hot smoked it, with butter and bacon grease under the skin (I always fail with the skin...turns to leather, when I slow cook it) :D


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## sprky (Dec 23, 2012)

Looks GREAT hope mine turn out that good


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