# sourdough starter...



## daveomak

We have been having trouble with the "mother" culture..... We moved her 8 years ago and the water is a little alkaline.... how much... I don't know.... Been reading where some folks add a little vinegar to the water and the same for the bread dough....  

I don't have pH strips but should get some, or buy water in the jug... Culligan water is 37 cent a gallon here, when bought at W-Mart....  not a big deal for good sourdough....  

So, what do my friends in hard water areas do to promote a good healthy sourdough starter "mother".....  If you use pH strips, what range is your target ???  

Dave


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## venture

Dave, wish I could help you?

Not an expert here?

Adding acid would scare me?  Starter is supposed to produce its own acid.

I have made many starters using yeast.

Making a starter from just water and flour was a challenge, but I finally got it done after a few tries.

I think just the regular feeding is the way to go?

Yeah, some folks add sugar.  Some use milk.  Some use potatoes and all that.  Main thing is to produce the "beer" and the acid, in as natural way as possible.

The "San Francisco" starter will soon be the local starter after a few months.

I called mine "Kissy".  The Kingsburg starter I made from flour and water.  Then I left her in the fridge too long without feeding her.  Then she died.  I sure do miss her.

Good luck and good smoking.


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## DanMcG

Hey Dave ...I always use bottled spring water, our water is chlorinated... and that reminds me I'm out of spring water and I know they are hungry....Sorry never tested the ph


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## linguica

Who supplies your water. Most water companies are required by law to provide a full analysis of the water upon request.

http://www.discountfilterstore.com/...e=googlebase&gclid=CLzM0eL9w7UCFUeCQgodSHkASw


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## diggingdogfarm

Never had a problem with water in all the many years that I had starter (can't have the starch now.)
I always used hard rural well water, but the pH was close to neutral.
Sounds like spring or distilled water is the way to go.

~Martin


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## daveomak

Venture said:


> Dave, wish I could help you?
> 
> Not an expert here?
> 
> Adding acid would scare me?  Starter is supposed to produce its own acid.
> 
> I have made many starters using yeast.
> 
> Making a starter from just water and flour was a challenge, but I finally got it done after a few tries.
> 
> I think just the regular feeding is the way to go?
> 
> Yeah, some folks add sugar.  Some use milk.  Some use potatoes and all that.  Main thing is to produce the "beer" and the acid, in as natural way as possible.
> 
> The "San Francisco" starter will soon be the local starter after a few months.
> 
> I called mine "Kissy".  The Kingsburg starter I made from flour and water.  Then I left her in the fridge too long without feeding her.  Then she died.  I sure do miss her.
> 
> Good luck and good smoking.


This starter is a no yeast type.....  I just read adding rye flour will acidify the starter then use plain AP flour for the rest of the feedings....  Started it from Whole wheat and unbleached bread flour....   


DanMcG said:


> Hey Dave ...I always use bottled spring water, our water is chlorinated... and that reminds me I'm out of spring water and I know they are hungry....Sorry never tested the ph


Dan,  I started with distilled water and moved to our tap water..... no chlorine... now I have some Culligan...  may end up with spring water..


Linguica said:


> Who supplies your water. Most water companies are required by law to provide a full analysis of the water upon request.
> 
> http://www.discountfilterstore.com/...e=googlebase&gclid=CLzM0eL9w7UCFUeCQgodSHkASw


Paul, our local assn. doesn't do anything to the well water....  It's tested every 6 months or something like that...  It's been in business for 49 years...  All I know when you boil it, there is a lot of white precipitate left in the pan... I think I will pay attention when the next analysis is sent out....


DiggingDogFarm said:


> Never had a problem with water in all the many years that I had starter (can't have the starch now.)
> I always used hard rural well water, but the pH was close to neutral.
> Sounds like spring or distilled water is the way to go.
> 
> ~Martin


Martin, yeah, I'm gonna have to do something... just trying to figure out what...  I just picked up some Light rye flour and it is bubbling like crazy...  maybe the Rye was what it needed....   It hasn't formed any beer yet....  just put it in the refer yesterday after 6 days from the initial start....  Too bad Bride's starter died.... holy [email protected] was it sour and delish....   That is where all this started.... here starter dying....

You never learn anything until something goes awry...  well, the starter dying is where the learning started....  never had to think before this...  probably shouldn't have started thinking.....  My head hurts...     

Dave


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## linguica

How about some thoughts on how to get a new starter going................potato water..?


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## daveomak

I recently read something about potato starter.....  Can't recall for sure but I think there could be a problem with some specific type of bacteria that isn't good..... If I run across it again, I will try to remember to  put the good or bad  findings in here...


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## farmnbum

I used potato/flour mix to start a mother starter. Worked well, and then fed with AP or HP flour. Used rye a little but not a lot. I need to pull the starter out of the fridge, been in there too long (hope it's not dead). I also messed around with the moisture content of the starter quite a bit. For some reason, I wasn't fond of the liquor on the top so I started reducing the amount of water I added with the flour, thickening it up. Good activity but was just thicker without the liquor.


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## kathrynn

Dave....our water (city) leaves that residue too....heard it was the lime content in the water. Have friends who do starters here. Will check in with them and see what they think.


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## diggingdogfarm

Linguica said:


> How about some thoughts on how to get a new starter going................potato water..?



FWIW, here is a post of mine from another forum a few years ago.
It's a pretty much foolproof way to get a natural starter going, especially for those who have had trouble, but, of course, it should work good for anyone.
I posted the following after a few forum members had repeated failures.

*"I'm too passionate about Sourdough to witness folks failing left and right without a fight!!!!! I've witnessed way too many give up over the years! Never, ever, give up!!!

There are a couple 'secrets' that you can use to significantly increase your chances of culturing a healthy sourdough starter on the first try.

Firstly,
Sourdough yeasts and bacteria thrive in an acidic environment.
Creating an acidic environment (using acidic fruit juice the first 3 days of starter culture) from the start will ensure that conditions are right for good starter production and help keep nasties from getting a foothold.

Secondly,
Aerating (mixing) the starter 2-3 times per day (until the starter is ready for use in a recipe), not just when the starter is fed, will help keep the mixture evenly acidic which helps to ensure that the bennies have perfect conditions and the nasties are discouraged.

Anyway....
Here's the formula for success in more cases than not!

Day 1: mix together...
2 T. whole grain flour (rye or wheat)
2 T. unsweetened pineapple juice or orange juice
Cover and let sit at room temperature for 24 hours.


Day 2: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours. At day 2 you may (or may not) start to see some small bubbles.


Day 3: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours.

Day 4:

Stir down, measure out 1/4 cup and discard the rest.
To the 1/4 cup add...
1/4 cup flour (any good non additive flour can be added at this point)
1/4 cup filtered or spring water

Day 5 and beyond.....continue the same daily procedure until the mixture is very active and yeasty, is the starter stalls add 1/4 tsp apple cider vinegar to the other added ingredients daily...that'll lower the PH and make things active again


Using just flour and water incubates a gas producing bacteria, among other nasties, called Leuconostoc, that mimics the activity of yeast for the first few days...it gives off carbon dioxide bubbles, but then subsides creating a poor environment for yeast and leaving a nasty end product! Acidity fights Leuconostoc and other nasties!

That may very well be what has happened in your case.

Leuconostoc is, allegedly, becoming more and more prevalent on the surface of wheat and subsequently in flour.

I can back up the argument for acidity with some interesting links if anyone is interested.


Here's some interesting reading relating to the use of acidic juice to kick-start the starter......

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough"*


Good luck!

~Martin


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## daveomak

Martin....  You always seem to know "where to find the links" that really explain stuff thoroughly....  Great info....... Now I know all the ins and outs of sourdough....


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## daveomak

Thanks everyone for your advice... and help....   Got a new starter going.... ain't very sour yet but getting there.... The starter is sitting on my new hot water tank I installed s few weeks ago.... (That is a very long story..)  I had just "excited it" (starter) with a feeding and got a batch of dough going..













starter 1.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013






I'm doing a "No Knead" bread.... add the stuff..... let sit 8-12 hours or so...  texture was sticky and fairly wet....  

roll out of the SS bowl on a floured board, add flour to the top.... rest.....













SD after 14 hrs.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013






Divide into whatever you are baking.... in this case...  my first SD loaves....

Didn't rise the second time as much as I figured.....  should have weighed the 2

blobs of dough so they would have been more even....













SD in the pans.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013






In a cold oven... 375  for 70 min.    IT of bread was 208 deg and I pulled it....













SD loaves out of the oven.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013






Thin loaves...... nice crumb.... fairly sour.... delicious bread....  crust is really good....













SD buttered.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013






Sourdough grilled ham and cheese..... cheetos....  tomato soup.... 

Very Original......  LOL













SD ham and cheese.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Feb 28, 2013


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## diggingdogfarm

MMMmmmmm!!!

Sourdough!



~Martin


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## kathrynn

Bread looks really good to me Dave!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Kat


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## venture

Crumb looks good.

Pass me some!

Getting a rise without added yeast is tricky, but worth it.

I have heard that spring is a good time for making starters outdoors to capture the natural yeast spores?

Good luck and good smoking.


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## daveomak

Thanks folks....

This was the Std. sourdough bread recipe....  Next will be a light caraway rye...  that's my goal.... I love that stuff....   

One small step at a time...


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## farmnbum

With all this sour dough talk, I decided to pull my starter from the fridge and see if she was still alive. I don't really remember how long she's been in there, probably close to six months give or take. Smelled sour with a little hooch on top. Mixed it all up, threw in some flour and a little water and left it on the counter. Fed again the following day, wasted a bit the next and fed and she's as alive as she was when I put her away.

Now all I need to do is schedule some baking.


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## deanoaz

Dave, if you can get Squirrel to reply, she knows all about sourdough management and it might be good to send her a private message.


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## daveomak

deanoaz said:


> Dave, if you can get Squirrel to reply, she knows all about sourdough management and it might be good to send her a private message.


OK, thanks.....  Dave


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## roller

I love sourdough bread and just can`t find it around here. I bought a loaf the other day that said California Sourdough Bread and when I got home it said it was made in Ohio. It has not sourdough taste at all. Thanks for the recipe will start it tomorrow...


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## gary morris

Hi Everyone, I'd really like to try some of the Sour Dough Bread after seeing and reading about it here.  (after preparing the starter.)

Can I ask, is there a standard weight for the 1 Cup measure please?  Living in the UK we don't use this measurement very often.  Would 1 cup of a liquid be the same as a Dry ingredient?

thanks

Gary


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## daveomak

Gary,  1 cup starter mix is about 1/4 liter 250 mls....    Dry vs wet is not equal....  V : V measurements are standard in some recipes here.... 

Dave


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## gary morris

Thanks Dave, should be ok to go, I'll gey the ingredients Monday. :)

Gary


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## daveomak

Gary Morris said:


> Thanks Dave, should be ok to go, I'll gey the ingredients Monday. :)
> 
> Gary


Gary, My ERROR....  1 cup is about 125 mls......    2 cups to a quart.....   1 quart is about 1 liter.....      I guess my baking skills aren't all that good....   Baking skills is something I don't have....


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## diggingdogfarm

Volume-wise, an American cup is 236.58825ml, almost always rounded off to 240ml.
Two cups in a pint, which is 473.1765ml.
Two pints in a quart, which is 946.353ml.

HTH

~Martin


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## petewoody

Dave, you were right first time around.

I cup = 250ml./ 2 cups = I pint /2 pints = I quart


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## daveomak

I hate it when I'm right and think I'm wrong.....  It really gets confusing.....


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## gary morris

Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to making some, I've heard it mentioned on the TV quite allot and after seeing the photo's It's a must do.

Gary


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## gary morris

Sorry to be a PITA guys,

I've read that some people keep the starter culture in the fridge and others that do not.  My Mom used to keep a 'ginger / bakers fresh yeast / sugar'  culture for making ginger beer, some years ago.  My Mom kept it on the window sill as the lower temperature in the fridge, reduced the reaction considerably.  Would this be a similar scenario for the Sour Dough Starter.

Gary


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## daveomak

The fridge puts the yeast  to sleep, so to speak.... Needs to be fed every week or 3...  On the counter, feed every day or so... counter storage is for the folks that make bisquits, hot cakes, bread, rolls almost on a daily basis, or something like that....   Pizza dough from starter is awesome....     Dave


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## yolande

I make lot of bread at lest 1 differend bread every week.Do you ever has try kombucha in your bread? it s very good and add lot of nutriments.


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## daveomak

Kombucha......    Is that made with Kombu seaweed....  very healthy and a flavor enhancing food also....   Dave


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## dirtsailor2003

DaveOmak said:


> Kombucha......    Is that made with Kombu seaweed....  very healthy and a flavor enhancing food also....   Dave


It's a fermented tea, but not made from Kombu. It's all the craze here in the Pacific Northwest for its medicinal qualities.


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## yolande

right dirtsailor2003 I use lot of kombucha in salad  and everything and I drink 1 glass every day.May be about that I am in so good health no medicine pill at all at 75 years old lol. For a starter if you are hurry no time to wait for it do you know you can also use Kefir  take the liquid place in your recipes .To morrow I will make an almond bread .Have a good day.


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## gary morris

Thanks to you guys I now have a 7 day old starter, every time I feed her, she shows her apreciation by doubling in size and blowing bubbles!  I'm going to find me a recipe and I'll post some pics.

thanks

Gary


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## daveomak

Gary Morris said:


> Thanks to you guys I now have a 7 day old starter, every time I feed her, she shows her apreciation by doubling in size and blowing bubbles!  I'm going to find me a recipe and I'll post some pics.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Gary


Be sure to let us in on the details, in a new thread....     I'll be looking for it......    Dave


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## smokinmad

.


DaveOmak said:


> We have been having trouble with the "mother" culture..... We moved her 8 years ago and the water is a little alkaline.... how much... I don't know.... Been reading where some folks add a little vinegar to the water and the same for the bread dough....
> 
> I don't have pH strips but should get some, or buy water in the jug... Culligan water is 37 cent a gallon here, when bought at W-Mart....  not a big deal for good sourdough....
> 
> So, what do my friends in hard water areas do to promote a good healthy sourdough starter "mother".....  If you use pH strips, what range is your target ???
> 
> Dave


 Dave...Just a Thought...  I got into making kombucha tea. The first thing you have to do to make kombucha, is use spring, well, or filtered water. Why? Chlorine, fluoride and all the other poisons they put in our city waters. [ fluoride is Chinese, its a hazardous waste problem in the manufacture of aluminum. So, they sold it to America, as a Pesticide, which America uses as fluoride to put in your water.] Anyways,back to Sourdough. I wonder if the chemicals in the water are killing the culture. Kombucha has a mother culture also and thats why the filtered water. Hope this helps.                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            SmokinMad


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## daveomak

I gave up....   6 months of trying to get a dough starter going...... NOT.....  no luck.. [email protected] I tried everything...   I was thinking of buying a culture but couldn't pull the trigger....   So, I make that "no knead" 24 hour sourdough and it's OK....


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## smoking b

DaveOmak said:


> I gave up....   6 months of trying to get a dough starter going...... NOT.....  no luck.. [email protected] I tried everything...   I was thinking of buying a culture but couldn't pull the trigger....   So, I make that "no knead" 24 hour sourdough and it's OK....


Dave - go to carlsfriends.net & have a look. I promise it will be worth your time


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## daveomak

Smoking B said:


>


Done deal......   Looks good....  Thanks.....


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## daveomak

*It got here.*........Thanks everyone....    I donated $3 for this "FREE PACKAGE" to help cover their costs.....  Now to reread the directions for activation etc.....    The site is really cool with lots of good info, history and generally a good read....   I'm looking forward to making sourdough pizza crust again...  That is sooooooo good...   beats other pizza crust 100:1......  SD hot cakes, waffles, and breads....   Hoping to make some "Old World" light caraway rye someday.....   The kind the Jewish Delis sell... That stuff is so sour and the texture is incredible....  Don't hold your breath on that one...     

Dave













Carl'sFriends Sourdough.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Oct 10, 2013


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## smokinmad

Just a thought.......American water that you get from the City.........With all the chemicals (fluoride, chlorine and who knows what else), its NOT GOOD FOR YOU.......AND it will KILL any good bacteria in a LIVE CULTURE....Kombucha Tea, Sour Doughs and Kefirs......use Filtered or Spring water, not Faucet Water.....MAKE 2 Batches and see which one LIVES....... Uncle Sam is NOT your Friend.......

Ron


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## daveomak

Ron, evening.....  I use distilled water for all our canning, pickling stuff and for the starter also...  Our water is well water... no additives except the hardness from the ground.... 

Dave


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## smokinmad

Dave....evening to ya......I'm jealous......hate my city water......course we live on top of a limestone bed....can't say I don't get any minerals.....lol....as a kid, I remember the cold well water we drank from G-Dads well in Kentucky, So Sweet...

Ron


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