# New uds goes through charcoal too fast



## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

Hey there, 

A few weeks ago I built my first smoker with the big poppa smokers kit.  Since then I've used it twice to cook ribs and a few times with no meat just to get used to controlling it.  

Last weekend I used it with no meat to test how long I could get it to go for using royal oak briquettes. After about 6 and a half hours the temp started to drop.  Today I made ribs on it and this time I used royal oak lump.  The basket was near full when I started and I was able to maintain 225 for about 4 hours. The last hour of the 5 hour cook it was down to just below 200. And when I was done I looked down in the bottom and saw that there was not much left burning.

Now from what I've read I should be able to maintain 225 for 15+ hours with this kit, so I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong?  I realize there could be a lot of things affecting this, but I'm wondering what common mistakes cause this to happen?  I should also mention I've added a pizza pan heat deflector and stainless steel bowl water pan.  

Thanks


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## kruizer (May 25, 2021)

Lump tends to burn hotter and faster than the briquettes. Try a different brand of charcoal.


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

kruizer said:


> Lump tends to burn hotter and faster than the briquettes. Try a different brand of charcoal.



Yeah know about that, but I've read a lot online about people using lump in a uds and going for way longer than 4 hours. Not to mention I tried with briquettes last week and although it was longer, it was still only 6 1/2 hours.  Not very long if you want to do a brisket.   I could try kingsford bb, but for now I'm thinking that theres something more to it that that.

Thanks for your reply


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## BandCollector (May 25, 2021)

Make one of these and use the Minion Method.  Better control of the temp and amount of charcoal.








I hope this helps,

John


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> Make one of these and use the Minion Method.  Better control of the temp and amount of charcoal.
> 
> View attachment 497588
> 
> ...



Nice looking basket.   Whats that in the center? It looks like something made of ceramic.


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## smokin peachey (May 25, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> Make one of these and use the Minion Method.  Better control of the temp and amount of charcoal.
> 
> View attachment 497588
> 
> ...


Awesome setup and nice organized shop. Thanks for the picture.


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## BandCollector (May 25, 2021)

Thanks 

 smokin peachey


Cant stand clutter in a work area.


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## PPG1 (May 25, 2021)

Welcome from Coastal South Carolina


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

PPG1 said:


> Welcome from Coastal South Carolina



Thanks


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## Mike R. (May 25, 2021)

I don't smoke with a Drum, but in my WSM 14 Royal Oak original or KBB with a fully loaded charcoal ring gets me around 6 hours using the minion method. Running with B&B Briquettes (or Weber Charcoal Briquettes, which have been discontinued in the US but are still offered in Canada, or Blue Hog Briquettes, which I also really like) I can basically double that time. I  am a big believer that the quality of the charcoal has a major effect on how much time I will get out of my little smoker.


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## Mike R. (May 25, 2021)

greg84 said:


> I've added a pizza pan heat deflector and stainless steel bowl water pan.
> 
> Thanks


Adding those two diffusers will also use a lot more charcoal because both those items are going to work to keep the temps controlled/down and more charcoal will be burned to get and keep it to your desired temps. Did you put water in the water pan? If you did that really leads to the use of a lot of charcoal to get and keep the temps up, but it also helps make it easier to manage the temps.


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

Mike R. said:


> I don't smoke with a Drum, but in my WSM 14 Royal Oak original or KBB with a fully loaded charcoal ring gets me around 6 hours using the minion method. Running with B&B Briquettes (or Weber Charcoal Briquettes, which have been discontinued in the US but are still offered in Canada, or Blue Hog Briquettes, which I also really like) I can basically double that time. I  am a big believer that the quality of the charcoal has a major effect on how much time I will get out of my little smoker.



Well that's good to know, but from what I've read other people are able to get that or more with kbb and royal oak.   I'm really just thinking I've got some kind of problem with mine, probably a leak/leaks which are making it burn faster.  What I dont understand about that though is that the temp holds at 225 until the charcoal is almost gone which should mean its burning at the right rate regardless of whether or not it's leaking, right?  Anyway thanks for your reply


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

Mike R. said:


> Adding those two diffusers will also use a lot more charcoal because both those items are going to work to keep the temps controlled/down and more charcoal will be burned to get and keep it to your desired temps. Did you put water in the water pan? If you did that really leads to the use of a lot of charcoal to get and keep the temps up, but it also helps make it easier to manage the temps.



Yeah I was thinking that.  And yes I did have hot water in the pan.  Maybe I'll try a test cook without the water pan and just the defuser next time just to see.   Thanks


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## Hamdrew (May 25, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> Make one of these and use the Minion Method.  Better control of the temp and amount of charcoal.
> 
> View attachment 497588
> 
> ...


How's something like this work compared to other minions? Particularly the "standard" of dumping lit coals in the center, but also using an inner coffee can, or going around the outside of the charcoal basket?

Thanks!


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## apn73 (May 25, 2021)

This all sounds weird, I've got a UDS that I made out of a 55 gallon drum, charcoal basket is a piece of expanded metal, 10"x60", rolled around charcoal grate for a 22" Weber kettle, nothing fancy.  Four 3/4" holes drilled around the outer perimeter of the bottom that I control with 1" rare earth magnets, we're talking low budget.  I can put a full bag of hardwood lump, usually either Royal Oak or Frontier, and I've smoked 9 lb Boston butts at 250-300 degrees for 17 hours, and I've got enough charcoal to go a full 24 hours or more.  I'm not even using the full Minion method, I'm dumping half a chimney starter right on the top of the pile of charcoal down in the basket.

I've tried a water pan in mine and it took the heat rather than the meat, but I've never used up charcoal like that.  I'm not sure, but I'm wondering if you've got air leaking from somewhere, or your basket is designed in such a way that the air racing through and burning the charcoal quickly.  For a UDS, this doesn't make sense.


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## greg84 (May 25, 2021)

apn73 said:


> This all sounds weird, I've got a UDS that I made out of a 55 gallon drum, charcoal basket is a piece of expanded metal, 10"x60", rolled around charcoal grate for a 22" Weber kettle, nothing fancy.  Four 3/4" holes drilled around the outer perimeter of the bottom that I control with 1" rare earth magnets, we're talking low budget.  I can put a full bag of hardwood lump, usually either Royal Oak or Frontier, and I've smoked 9 lb Boston butts at 250-300 degrees for 17 hours, and I've got enough charcoal to go a full 24 hours or more.  I'm not even using the full Minion method, I'm dumping half a chimney starter right on the top of the pile of charcoal down in the basket.
> 
> I've tried a water pan in mine and it took the heat rather than the meat, but I've never used up charcoal like that.  I'm not sure, but I'm wondering if you've got air leaking from somewhere, or your basket is designed in such a way that the air racing through and burning the charcoal quickly.  For a UDS, this doesn't make sense.



Ok well that sounds more like it.  your basket is definitely much bigger than mine though.  Mine wont even hold a 4 kg bag of charcoal.  This is it here









						Charcoal Nest | Drum Smoker Kit | Big Poppa Smokers
					

The Charcoal Nest exclusively holds the charcoal fuel in the BPS Drum Smoker and comes included in the kit. This Charcoal Nest is sold individually as a replacement or spare part. Please note: The Charcoal Nest was designed to be used on the BPS Drum Smoker.




					www.bigpoppasmokers.com
				




The problem is that I've read on the drum smoker forum for big poppa smokers that people can get up to 12 to 15 hours off one of these as seen here 






						Charcoal basket question
					

How long of a cook at 225 are you able to get with the charcoal basket? I'm sure this depends on many things but a ballpark answer would be quite helpful. I prefer using lump charcoal but use briquetts also. i do a lot of 12-15 hour smokes so i want to make sure i'll be able to get a full smoke...



					www.drumsmoking.com
				




I'm thinking I should get some rtv gasket maker and go around all the places it could be leaking.  And I know for sure that some smoke is coming out around the lid.  I cant think of anything else it could be.  Thanks for your help

Edit: I just thought on something.  If it were leaking that badly, wouldn't that mean I wouldn't be able to extinguish the lit charcoal by closing the vents and exhaust? Because I am able to do that, although it does take quite a few hours to completely extinguish.


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## BandCollector (May 27, 2021)

greg84 said:


> Nice looking basket.   Whats that in the center? It looks like something made of ceramic.


Those are clay roof tiles that I got from a member who lives in the south west where they are common on roofs.

John


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## BandCollector (May 27, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> How's something like this work compared to other minions? Particularly the "standard" of dumping lit coals in the center, but also using an inner coffee can, or going around the outside of the charcoal basket?
> 
> Thanks!


The  S curve in the center made from clay roof tiles creates a path for the burning charcoal to follow.  Fill the basket, light one end, and the burning charcoal will follow the S channel around to the other side.  Sort of like a fuse burning to get to the dynamite stick.


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## Hamdrew (May 27, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> The  S curve in the center made from clay roof tiles creates a path for the burning charcoal to follow.  Fill the basket, light one end, and the burning charcoal will follow the S channel around to the other side.  Sort of like a fuse burning to get to the dynamite stick.


oh i figured, i just meant to ask whether you've tried other "minions", and if how does that "S" compare to those other minion methods (like putting lit coals in the center,  or snaking coals around the outside of the charcoal basket).

i like the flavor profile of fat dripping directly on the coals, but am curious.


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## apn73 (May 27, 2021)

greg84 said:


> Ok well that sounds more like it.  your basket is definitely much bigger than mine though.  Mine wont even hold a 4 kg bag of charcoal.  This is it here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's weird part of, if it was leaking air, you'd have a hard time maintaining temperature and it would probably run hot.  It doesn't sound like you have too much less charcoal than an 18" WSM, and those things will run at 250 for 12-15 hours if I'm not mistaken.  Your basket appears to be of a conventional design, so I don't think that's your problem.  What kind of charcoal are using?  That will make difference.  All I've ever used is hardwood lump, Royal Oak & Frontier mostly, but have run Cowboy was well, and have never had fuel problem.  Are there any foils or ducts in the bottom that are changing (accelerating or funneling) the air flow?  Have you talked with other users of your same smoker?  Just some thoughts....


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## greg84 (May 27, 2021)

apn73 said:


> That's weird part of, if it was leaking air, you'd have a hard time maintaining temperature and it would probably run hot.  It doesn't sound like you have too much less charcoal than an 18" WSM, and those things will run at 250 for 12-15 hours if I'm not mistaken.  Your basket appears to be of a conventional design, so I don't think that's your problem.  What kind of charcoal are using?  That will make difference.  All I've ever used is hardwood lump, Royal Oak & Frontier mostly, but have run Cowboy was well, and have never had fuel problem.  Are there any foils or ducts in the bottom that are changing (accelerating or funneling) the air flow?  Have you talked with other users of your same smoker?  Just some thoughts....



The charcoal I'm using is royal oak lump and I have 2 vents on the bottom that slide open or closed that came with the kit also.  But nothing funneling or accelerating that I know of.  And I tried talking with other people who have the same smoker, but none have responded.  I did however talk to someone on reddit who has a different kind of drum smoker and he said that on his it only takes 3 hours for him to extinguish his charcoal after sealing it up.  Because it takes mine hours and hours I figured its probably leaking, so for now my plan is to seal the leaks and go from there.  Thanks


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## Hamdrew (May 27, 2021)

Definitely possible, but you do have an aftermarket door, right? The stock ones are pretty bad. One of my WSM intakes is slightly bent and thus will never seal all the way. If you can't see by the naked eye, try shining a light on the other side of it in the dark.

Aluminum foil can do a pretty fine job at helping mitigate/eliminate that. Just crimp little squares over the intakes/exhaust.
[Also a good trick for light rain, making a little hood over the exhaust (I wrap it around the handle)]


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## greg84 (May 27, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> Definitely possible, but you do have an aftermarket door, right? The stock ones are pretty bad. One of my WSM intakes is slightly bent and thus will never seal all the way. If you can't see by the naked eye, try shining a light on the other side of it in the dark.
> 
> Aluminum foil can do a pretty fine job at helping mitigate/eliminate that. Just crimp little squares over the intakes/exhaust.
> [Also a good trick for light rain, making a little hood over the exhaust (I wrap it around the handle)]



No I dont have a door on my smoker.  It's a drum smoker not a wsm.  But using aluminum foil might do the trick.  Thanks


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## noboundaries (May 27, 2021)

greg84 said:


> I should also mention I've added a pizza pan heat deflector and stainless steel bowl water pan.





greg84 said:


> And yes I did have hot water in the pan. Maybe I'll try a test cook without the water pan and just the defuser next time just to see. Thanks



WATER is the problem.  It is a heat sink, or a better way to say it, a heat sponge.  It will absorb as much available heat as it can. The highest temperature water will reach is 212F, lower at higher elevations. If you are trying to run 225F, you're fighting physics. Even when the state of water turns to steam and expands 1700 times in volume, the steam will not exceed 212F at ambient pressures. Consequently, you have to burn a hotter fire, using more fuel, to maintain a 225F chamber temp. 

No water next time like mentioned above. Your fuel will last MUCH longer.


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## BandCollector (May 28, 2021)

Hamdrew said:


> oh i figured, i just meant to ask whether you've tried other "minions", and if how does that "S" compare to those other minion methods (like putting lit coals in the center,  or snaking coals around the outside of the charcoal basket).
> 
> i like the flavor profile of fat dripping directly on the coals, but am curious.


Most Minion Meathods work just fine.  I came up with this one and found it to be the most controllable for temperature control and usage of charcoal in my UDS.








John


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## bill1 (May 28, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> Make one of these and use the Minion Method...John


Nice work John!  Are those curved clay roofing tiles for the labyrinth?  How did you cut and drill them?


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## bill1 (May 28, 2021)

To the OP,  Greg84:  maybe you're just burning your fuel too fast?  How much temp do you lose if you throttle back your air intakes a bit?  If it's too much, maybe just reduce the heat you lose out the sides by sliding a big box over it?  (A lot of Big Poppas don't have side pipes and draw air strictly from the bottom so then you'll want to space the box up off the ground on a few bricks.)  The big box also greatly reduces the effect that breezes have at cooling down your cooker...which then require more fuel for a given cook temp.


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## greg84 (May 28, 2021)

bill1 said:


> To the OP,  Greg84:  maybe you're just burning your fuel too fast?  How much temp do you lose if you throttle back your air intakes a bit?  If it's too much, maybe just reduce the heat you lose out the sides by sliding a big box over it?  (A lot of Big Poppas don't have side pipes and draw air strictly from the bottom so then you'll want to space the box up off the ground on a few bricks.)  The big box also greatly reduces the effect that breezes have at cooling down your cooker...which then require more fuel for a given cook temp.



My big poppa vents have a slide which slides over four 3/4 inch holes on each side.  I'm only leaving a half hole on each side open in order to maintain 225 to 250. I haven't tried dialing back any more as I reached the temp I wanted, so I just left it alone. 

As for the box, its something to consider, but for now I'm going to focus on fixing the leaking lid and see if that makes a big difference.  I suspect it will.  

You mentioned loosing heat out the sides.  Do you mean through the metal drum, or though some type of leak?  Thanks for your help


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## greg84 (May 28, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> WATER is the problem.  It is a heat sink, or a better way to say it, a heat sponge.  It will absorb as much available heat as it can. The highest temperature water will reach is 212F, lower at higher elevations. If you are trying to run 225F, you're fighting physics. Even when the state of water turns to steam and expands 1700 times in volume, the steam will not exceed 212F at ambient pressures. Consequently, you have to burn a hotter fire, using more fuel, to maintain a 225F chamber temp.
> 
> No water next time like mentioned above. Your fuel will last MUCH longer.



Yeah between that and the leaking lid I think I'll get it sorted, but we'll see.   Thanks for your reply


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## BandCollector (May 28, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Nice work John!  Are those curved clay roofing tiles for the labyrinth?  How did you cut and drill them?





 bill1


Yes they are clay roof tiles.

I cut them with a 10" masonry blade in my chopsaw.  Cut them easily and beautifully.  

Drilled them with a masonry drill bit and bolted them together.

John


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## Workaholic (May 28, 2021)

Definitely take a look at those leaks.  Something else you may want to look at, is to run the intakes like it's a WSM.  Use only one intake, unless you are having trouble maintaining temps with 1 intake all the way open.

An example:  on my 22.5 WSM, which is approximately the same size as your Big Poppa, once I'm up to temp, I have the exhaust all the way open and am using one intake to control temps.  I start it with all 3 open, and slowly close down two of them as I near cooking temp.

  I am wondering if you having both intakes partially open is causing enough of a cross draft to have more charcoal burning than needed.  Most of the people I know that run a version of the uds, including the big poppa, will have 3-4 intakes on the cooker, but only use one after up to temp


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## apn73 (May 28, 2021)

Workaholic said:


> Definitely take a look at those leaks.  Something else you may want to look at, is to run the intakes lime it's a WSM.  Use only one intake, unless you are having trouble maintaining temps with 1 intake all the way open.
> 
> An example:  on my 22.5 WSM, which is approximately the same size as your Big Poppa, once I'm up to temp, I have the exhaust all the way open and am using one intake to control temps.  I start it with all 3 open, and slowly close down two of them as I near cooking temp.
> 
> I am wondering if you having both intakes partially open is causing enough of a cross draft to have more charcoal burning than needed.  Most of the people I know that run a version of the uds, including the big poppa, will have 3-4 intakes on the cooker, but only use one after up to temp


I agree with this.  I control my UDS by leaving the exhaust, the damper of the 22" kettle lid, wide open and I'm maintaining 250 degrees through a single 3/4" hole.  That hole is partially blocked by a rare earth magnet, so that's not much air to keep it going


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## apn73 (May 28, 2021)

noboundaries said:


> WATER is the problem.  It is a heat sink, or a better way to say it, a heat sponge.  It will absorb as much available heat as it can. The highest temperature water will reach is 212F, lower at higher elevations. If you are trying to run 225F, you're fighting physics. Even when the state of water turns to steam and expands 1700 times in volume, the steam will not exceed 212F at ambient pressures. Consequently, you have to burn a hotter fire, using more fuel, to maintain a 225F chamber temp.
> 
> No water next time like mentioned above. Your fuel will last MUCH longer.


My story in a previous post about smoking a Boston butt for 17 hours, a water pan was the reason why.  Some of the barbecue cook books that I own advocate for the use of a water pan to keep things moist.  Maybe they work just fine in other types of smokers, but water pan bad in a UDS.  I tried it once and I'll never use water again, at least not in a UDS.


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## apn73 (May 29, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> Most Minion Meathods work just fine.  I came up with this one and found it to be the most controllable for temperature control and usage of charcoal in my UDS.
> View attachment 497945
> 
> 
> ...


That's good looking Ugly there BandCollector, what did you use for the top ring in the picture?  Where the cover goes?  Thanks!


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## BandCollector (May 29, 2021)

apn73 said:


> That's good looking Ugly there BandCollector, what did you use for the top ring in the picture?  Where the cover goes?  Thanks!


The top ring was cut from the bottom half of a Weber Kettle.  I cut off the top 3 inches and bolted it to the top of my drum.

John


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## apn73 (May 29, 2021)

BandCollector said:


> The top ring was cut from the bottom half of a Weber Kettle.  I cut off the top 3 inches and bolted it to the top of my drum.
> 
> John
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## bill1 (May 29, 2021)

Just to quantify water pans a bit...

Water's specific heat is 1 calorie per gram per degreeC of heat rise.  So for liquid water to go from room temp (30C) to boiling (100C) is 70 cals/g.  
The heat of vaporization of water is large...540 calories per gram.  That turns water at 100C to steam at 100C.  
The specific heat of steam is ~.5 cals/g-deg.  So to go from 212F to 250F (38F or 20C) is 10 cals/g
Add them together and each gram of water takes 620 cals to get to smoker temp.
By comparison, charcoal's energy content is ~12kcal/g or 12000 calories per gram.  
So a pan of water "wastes" about a half pan of charcoal.  
In a bullet smoker like WSM, there's typically a door to add more fuel and add more water.  But not in a UDS.  It wouldn't be hard to rig a feed to a water pan and even keep it at a constant level but that's a very uncommon mod.  Which isn't unsurprising since  it doesn't sound like the UDS  folks care much for water pans.  

But I don't think the OP's use of a water pan is a full explanation for why he's using a lot of charcoal.


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## greg84 (May 29, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Just to quantify water pans a bit...
> 
> Water's specific heat is 1 calorie per gram per degreeC of heat rise.  So for liquid water to go from room temp (30C) to boiling (100C) is 70 cals/g.
> The heat of vaporization of water is large...540 calories per gram.  That turns water at 100C to steam at 100C.
> ...



Well I cant say I understood all of that, but I do get the idea, so thanks for that.  And yeah I agree the water pan is hurting, but I dont think its the whole story.  Which is why I think I should focus on the leaks first.  Then I'll take a look at bill1 mentioned, and see how much I can dial back the vents.


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