# Nitrites and Nitrates.



## realfloopyguy (Dec 11, 2017)

Someone brought up cure being bad for you in a thread about jerky.  I know why but I have a few ideas/questions if there is anyone qualified/more knowledgeable than me about them.  I numbered the questions in the writing so it would be easier to organize the answers.  Feel free to reply to anything though since I may have a misunderstanding or a missing bit of knowledge.

Salads have lots of the same thing that we use in cures for meat.  Nitrites and nitrates are good for you in salad/veggies/fruit because the nutrients in them keep them from converting to nitrosamines.  In meat, the amines combine with the nitrites to create the bad nitrosamines.  

1) Would using a nutrient rich brine such as OJ and beet juice prevent/impede the formation of nitrosamines?

2) Would nitrites need to be adjusted or not used if using a nitrate/nitrite rich food, such as beet or celery juice, as a brine?  Would they cause the nitrites to be much higher than expected if not accounted for?

There are warnings on many "uncured bacon" that they contain no added nitrites.  They have this warning when they contain celery powder, beet powder, and other things.

3)Aside from using them as a replacement for nitrites, is there some other purpose to these things being in a product such as bacon?

Alternatively, I have read that most nitrosamines are created with heat.  Including on smokingmeats.  Bacon would be a prime example.  Cooking it at a lower temperature would prevent much of the nitrosamines from forming is what I am hearing.  My understanding is going over around 266 degrees is when most of the nitrosamines are created.

With jerky, there is never a high enough level of heat that would create nitrosamines even for those who smoke or cook their jerky.

4)  Does this mean that while Jerky is cured, it doesn't actually contain nitrosamines in any significant amount like food that would be fried/grilled after curing would?

I understand that nitrosamines are created in other conditions and that additions of things can stop that from happening.  Vitamin C/ascorbate acid and vitamin E for instance.  This leads me to believe that a marinade involving OJ or apple juice would be beneficial in preventing the formation in jerky products.  However, I also understand that vitamin c at least would reduce nitrites and potentially make the cure not as effective.

5) Does anyone have any solid facts on how the addition of vitamin c would change the nature of curing?

Many of us smoke and grill things every weekend and eat 3-4 meals a week from the grill or smoker.  With that in mind.

6) How does the risk of eating 4 oz of cured jerky compare to eating 8-16oz of steak, brisket, pulled pork, ect?

I appreciate any responses.  If there are questions I am not asking or things I am not considering then by all means add them in.


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## realfloopyguy (Dec 11, 2017)

Accidentally posted it twice.


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## daveomak (Dec 11, 2017)

Vegetables have nitrates...  Nitrite dissipates, over time and when under heat...  about 80-90% of the nitrites dissipate when the meat is cooked in a commercial processor...  Some jerky makers do not get the jerky hot enough to kill pathogens.. (in the home).....  Nitrites kill botulism... nitrates have NO effect on botulism...   There is no scientific link between cancer and bacon and nitrite...


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## realfloopyguy (Dec 12, 2017)

Nitrates turn to nitrites.  Nitrites combine with amines in meat to become nitrisamines.  Nitrisamines are what they say causes cancer.

Nitrates can cure meat too and turn to nitrites once they are chewed mostly (that is my understanding anyway) and then the nitrites turn to nitric oxide in your body which helps blood flow in your oxygen deprived muscles.  Nitrites are good for you while what they can turn into is bad.

I'm not saying I believe bacon causes cancer just that heat increases the creation of cancer causing agents according to what I've read.


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 13, 2017)

Someone brought up cure being bad for you in a thread about jerky.  I know why but I have a few ideas/questions if there is anyone qualified/more knowledgeable than me about them.  I numbered the questions in the writing so it would be easier to organize the answers.  Feel free to reply to anything though since I may have a misunderstanding or a missing bit of knowledge.

Salads have lots of the same thing that we use in cures for meat.  Nitrites and nitrates are good for you in salad/veggies/fruit because the nutrients in them keep them from converting to nitrosamines.  In meat, the amines combine with the nitrites to create the bad nitrosamines. *Yes but this only takes place in the highly acid digestive system not just because nitrite and protein amines are present. Antioxidents inhibit formation. So eat a Salad, Fruit and Veggies with the meat and one cancels the other. In elementary school they called this a BALANCED DIET, and that was generations before the fear mongering Vegans and PETA ever heard the word Nitrosamine.*

1) Would using a nutrient rich brine such as OJ and beet juice prevent/impede the formation of nitrosamines? *Yes, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C, is a powerful antioxidant that inhibits nitrosamine formation. While Beet Juice is high in antioxidant, it is also high in Nitrate, pretty much cancels each other.*

2) Would nitrites need to be adjusted or not used if using a nitrate/nitrite rich food, such as beet or celery juice, as a brine?  Would they cause the nitrites to be much higher than expected if not accounted for? *No. The USDA sets levels of nitrite used to cure meat to be effective in controlling Clostridium Botulinum. They are nowhere near toxic levels even having a meal of Bacon Wrapped Celery. A toxic amount of sodium nitrite is 22 milligrams per Kilogram of body weight. To obtain 22 milligrams of sodium nitrite per kilogram of body weight (a lethal dose), a 154-pound adult would have to consume, at once, 18.57 pounds of cured meat product containing 200 ppm sodium nitrite (because nitrite is rapidly converted to nitric oxide during the curing process, the 18.57 pound figure should be tripled at least). Add in thermal dissipation and a multipliction factor of 6 or 8 is more likely. Even if a person could eat that amount of cured meat, salt, not nitrite, probably would be the toxic factor. *

There are warnings on many "uncured bacon" that they contain no added nitrites.  They have this warning when they contain celery powder, beet powder, and other things. *Not a warning*. *A marketing ploy to sell Nitrate laden bacon to folks afraid of Nitrite/Nitrate, at a premium price. The FDA regulates the wording on labels. Any additive has to be listed by common name but what is in the additive or active ingredient does not. Sodium Nitrite is the common name for the curing additive and has been demonized. Celery Juice is the common name but few of the paranoid know it contains Nitrate. *


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 13, 2017)

3)Aside from using them as a replacement for nitrites, is there some other purpose to these things being in a product such as bacon? *Nope and the random use of Untested Celery Juice can be risky. Without testing you have no idea if you are adding too much nitrate or not enough as amounts can vary batch to batch.*

Alternatively, I have read that most nitrosamines are created with heat.  Including on smokingmeats.  Bacon would be a prime example.  Cooking it at a lower temperature would prevent much of the nitrosamines from forming is what I am hearing.  My understanding is going over around 266 degrees is when most of the nitrosamines are created. *True, but nitrite degrades when heated so the amounts become small and Sodium Erythorbate , a more effective antioxidant than Ascorbic Acid is also added to commercial bacon further reducing nitrosamine formation. Americans have been drinking OJ with Bacon and Eggs for generations. I wonder if Grandma knew she was keeping the family from getting Cancer?*

With jerky, there is never a high enough level of heat that would create nitrosamines even for those who smoke or cook their jerky. *Correct.*

4)  Does this mean that while Jerky is cured, it doesn't actually contain nitrosamines in any significant amount like food that would be fried/grilled after curing would? *Yes, a non-issue.*

I understand that nitrosamines are created in other conditions and that additions of things can stop that from happening.  Vitamin C/ascorbate acid and vitamin E for instance.  This leads me to believe that a marinade involving OJ or apple juice would be beneficial in preventing the formation in jerky products.  However, I also understand that vitamin c at least would reduce nitrites and potentially make the cure not as effective. *No nitrosamine to begin with. Using ascorbic acid (Sodium Ascorbate) enhances the cures effectiveness, it speeds the curing process and it, or more specifically Erythorbate is frequently used in commercially cured meats.*


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 13, 2017)

5) Does anyone have any solid facts on how the addition of vitamin c would change the nature of curing? *From the USDA Meat Inspectors Handbook...

page 34 
Chapter 4 CURE ACCELERATOR CALCULATIONS INTRODUCTION 

Cure accelerators speed up the color development (color fixing) of cured products by accelerating the chemical conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide. In addition, cure accelerators aid in keeping myoglobin (muscle pigment) in the reduced state so that it can readily combine with nitric oxide to form nitric oxide myoglobin. During heating, nitric oxide myoglobin is converted to nitrosohemochrome, which is responsible for the bright pink color characteristic of cured meat. Since cure accelerators aid the curing agents in cure color development, they may only be used in combination with the curing agents. The amounts of curing accelerators are calculated on the basis of the green weight of the meat and/or poultry and/or meat/poultry byproducts in the formulation and are controlled on an ingoing basis. All the methods for calculating nitrite and nitrate amounts also apply in the calculation of cure accelerator amounts. When a product undergoes two curing methods, the maximum amount of cure accelerators that may be used in the product may be no greater than the greater of the two single cure accelerator maximums associated with the curing methods. The calculation method used will be the same as that applied for nitrite and nitrate in Chapter 3, pages 32 and 33. 
CURE ACCELERATOR LIMITS The amounts listed in Table III, on the next page, are the permitted maximums for accelerators used alone and in combination in the curing of pumped, massaged, immersed, comminuted, and dried meat or poultry products other than bacon. Maximums for sodium ascorbate and sodium erythorbate (isoascorbate) in bacon are given in Chapter 3, page 28. The cure accelerators listed in Table III are also permitted in a 10% solution (up to the stated limit) to spray surfaces of cured cuts prior to packaging, as long as the use of the solution does not result in the addition of a significant amount of moisture to the product. 
page35 
TABLE III MAXIMUM INGOING CURE ACCELERATORS (IN PPM) FOR MEAT AND POULTRY PRODUCTS Cure Accelerator Maximum Limit 
Ascorbic Acid 469ppm
Erythorbic Acid 469ppm
Sodium Ascorbate 547ppm
Sodium Erythorbate (isoascorbate) 547ppm
Citric Acid or Sodium Citrate may replace up to half of any one of the above.*


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 13, 2017)

Many of us smoke and grill things every weekend and eat 3-4 meals a week from the grill or smoker.  With that in mind.

6) How does the risk of eating 4 oz of cured jerky compare to eating 8-16oz of steak, brisket, pulled pork, ect? *What Risk??? No nitrosamines. Extremely low in Fat as ONLY lean meat is used to make jerky to avoid early spoilage from rancidity. The only possible down side is a high Sodium content but since you make the jerky you are in control. Jerky is WAY HEALTHIER than Pulled Pork.*

I appreciate any responses.  If there are questions I am not asking or things I am not considering then by all means add them in. *I hope this info helps... I am a retired Culinary Instuctor that taught Food Science and Food Safety, along with cooking techniques...Dave Omak is a Curing Guru here...JJ

Sorry for having to break this up but the system gave an error if I tried to post on one page.*


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## DanMcG (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks JJ


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## daveomak (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks JJ...


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## noboundaries (Dec 13, 2017)

Ah, I feel safe again.


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