# Masterbuilt Smoker Not Working



## KJNDIVER (Dec 18, 2020)

Hey guys, Im new here, located in south Louisiana along gulf coast, this is my first post on this forum. I have scoured the net and youtube looking the answer to my problem but as of yet, to no avail. In my efforts I came across this site and thought I would ask yall for some assistance, as MB support sux as most of us know and its all over the net.  I have a Masterbuilt  MB25071217 with the digital controller. Ive had this unit for 2 yrs, no problems, until now.  

Unit was working perfectly, then Hurricane Laura hit the La coast.  I went to take it out to smoke a ham for Thanksgiving and nothing. No heat.  Everything appears to be in working order but the unit never heats up.  Turn on the panel, set the temp, set the time, you can hear to equipment engage with an audible click ( as always) but no heat.   My first searches of the net yielded that i need to check continuity of the element. Both from terminal to terminal and from terminal to element exterior.  The terminal to terminal check out fine but the terminal to exterior did not. I was getting some continuity with that check. Okay, element is bad. 

Upon inspection it does appear that the ceramic insulator on one of the terminal ends has separated. Okay, thats my problem. Try to order a new element from MB, no go. Out of stock. Hello Amazon. Find a replacement element , ordered it, it came in this week. Today i go to perform the swap. Still no heat. Everything as before. It all appears to be in working order, but no heat.  I take my meter and check the voltage feeding the element. When the unit turns on it only generates 15-18 v feeding the element.  

I know this is a 120v unit, but that doenst necessarily mean that it sends 120v to the element, or does it?  Should the element see the full 120v from the control panel?  I have searched and searched and i cannot find what the voltage output of that panel is, e.g. what voltage is required for the element to work properly.  If it required 120v, then obviously ive got a problem somewhere with a what i would assume would be a relay located somewhere on the unit that should feed full 120v power, but isnt.   

Just food for thought and to be transparent, this unit stays under cover and out of the direct elements, but when a hurricane comes along those elements tend to go in all directions. There was evidence of wind blown rain and dirt on the side of the unit that i cleaned prior to trying to use. Even though there is no evident short as everything appears to be in working order, as in there are no beeps or other abnormalities with the controller, where else could i look to find my issue?  I have not taken the back panel off yet, that was my next step.  Thanks in advance for any assistance.


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## WV_Crusader (Dec 18, 2020)

Welcome, it sounds like a wiring issue from what I’m reading. I’ll be honest if you are comfortable with electric, great! But I caution everyone because it will bite you . Maybe someone else will chime in with a better suggestion than the lack of mine. Lol


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## bill1 (Dec 18, 2020)

Yes, every Masterbuilt schematic I've seen applies the entire 120VAC to the element.  

However if your unit got wet, other areas could still be shorting to ground and not just the heating element.  With power cord unplugged and "under your control", remove the wires to the element...what is the resistance of each to ground?  
I believe there might also be a fuse, if not on the lower board then on the upper board, that may have opened and which you might need to replace.  
And are you sure you have the correct heating element?  If you got one intended for a 12 or 24Vdc  oven in an RV, you could get the results you saw if there was some current limiting designed in.  You want something rated 800-1200 watts at 120V or 12-18 ohms. 
You sound pretty handy, but from your data it's obvious that you were working hot.  I sure hope you have the proper PPE and knowledge for that kind of work?  Trust me, things that have been accidentally exposed to water have a funny way of draining water out onto you at inopportune times...making 120V contact _quite realistically lethal_, not just potentially lethal.   
Good luck and be safe!


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 18, 2020)

Thats kind of what i assumed, that it would send full voltage, but wasnt sure. Ill check the element wires to ground next.   This is the element that i ordered from amazon, listed as a replacement for this model, 800 watt.  No worries, i fully understand the risks involved, all appropriate precautions were taken.   So, upper board i would assume refers to the board in the digital control panel that sits on top of the unit. You mention lower board, is there another one behind the back panel of the unit? I guess Ill find out soon enough..


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## eman (Dec 18, 2020)

Not sure about your unit . but, some of them have a lower board in the bottom of the unit. have to lay it on back to access. i lost my MES in the 16 flood in baton rouge.  check the ends of all your wires and make sure none of them have melted.  I have one that i can part out and see if you can fix yours


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## eman (Dec 18, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Hey guys, Im new here, located in south Louisiana along gulf coast, this is my first post on this forum. I have scoured the net and youtube looking the answer to my problem but as of yet, to no avail. In my efforts I came across this site and thought I would ask yall for some assistance, as MB support sux as most of us know and its all over the net.  I have a Masterbuilt  MB25071217 with the digital controller. Ive had this unit for 2 yrs, no problems, until now.
> 
> Unit was working perfectly, then Hurricane Laura hit the La coast.  I went to take it out to smoke a ham for Thanksgiving and nothing. No heat.  Everything appears to be in working order but the unit never heats up.  Turn on the panel, set the temp, set the time, you can hear to equipment engage with an audible click ( as always) but no heat.   My first searches of the net yielded that i need to check continuity of the element. Both from terminal to terminal and from terminal to element exterior.  The terminal to terminal check out fine but the terminal to exterior did not. I was getting some continuity with that check. Okay, element is bad.
> 
> ...


 check the ends of all the wires and make sure none of them have burned.  I am in baton rouge and have one that i can part out and see if you can fix yours?


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## dernektambura (Dec 18, 2020)

No, it's not element... either relay on electronic board is stuck in open position, or relay couil is fried, or high temp cut off  sensor is bad...


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## bill1 (Dec 18, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> ...This is the element that i ordered from amazon, listed as a replacement for this model, 800 watt....


The wattage is right and the comments in the listing imply they apply at 120V so that's a winner.  If the old one was shorting to ground (with leads disconnected) you definitely needed a new one.  

But Dernek is right...faulty relays are common problems on these...it would be on the lower board that I think you're discovering.  MB sells those boards for a very reasonable price for some models...and they're not replaceable on others.  You want to hope your lower board is screwed in, not riveted.  If riveted, replacements are not usually available.  
If you can remove and troubleshoot it to the relay, it's only an $8 part, but it takes some pretty good mechanical and electrical skills to do the job.  I've never done it so I couldn't help you much.


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## dernektambura (Dec 18, 2020)

If heating element shorting to the ground and breaker didn't pop then you have bigger problem than masterbuild smoker... just sayin'.....
120 VAC supply to the heater goes via relay normally open contacts...
Low DC  voltage, supplied by electronic board  activates relay coil....


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## MJB05615 (Dec 18, 2020)

tallbm
 Has a few complete step by steps to rewire and add a PID unit.  Also 

 dr k
 has good info.  He helped me last year, and now my MES 40 Gen 1 has worked better than when new, 6-7 years ago.  I'm sure one of them can help you.


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## dernektambura (Dec 18, 2020)

Tallbm rewire is electronic board bypass... you will need PID and SSR in addition to make it fully functional... or Inkbird...


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 18, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> 120 VAC supply to the heater goes via relay normally open contacts...
> Low DC  voltage, supplied by electronic board  activates relay coil....



Yea, thats what i was thinking, i am only seeing the voltage required to activte the relay and not full the voltage needed to operate the element.  I guess my next step is to do surgery and remove the back panel.


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## tallbm (Dec 18, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Hey guys, Im new here, located in south Louisiana along gulf coast, this is my first post on this forum. I have scoured the net and youtube looking the answer to my problem but as of yet, to no avail. In my efforts I came across this site and thought I would ask yall for some assistance, as MB support sux as most of us know and its all over the net.  I have a Masterbuilt  MB25071217 with the digital controller. Ive had this unit for 2 yrs, no problems, until now.
> 
> Unit was working perfectly, then Hurricane Laura hit the La coast.  I went to take it out to smoke a ham for Thanksgiving and nothing. No heat.  Everything appears to be in working order but the unit never heats up.  Turn on the panel, set the temp, set the time, you can hear to equipment engage with an audible click ( as always) but no heat.   My first searches of the net yielded that i need to check continuity of the element. Both from terminal to terminal and from terminal to element exterior.  The terminal to terminal check out fine but the terminal to exterior did not. I was getting some continuity with that check. Okay, element is bad.
> 
> ...



Hi there and welcome!

It looks like you are well on your way to trouble shooting.

The parts to consider are the following:

Electrical Female Spade Connectors - most common part to fail either at element or safety rollout limit switch 
Top Controller - 2nd most common part to fail, its ... on top haha
Heating Element - you have this covered
Lower Controller Circuit Board -  is underneath the MES.  Like if you flipped the MES on it's head you would see a panel where you drill out the rivets (replace with self tapping 3/4 inch sheet metal screes).  In there you find the lower circuit board.  Your cord plugs into it.  The wires to the heating element plugs into it.  Finally, the wires from the top controller plug into it.  Sometimes connectors go bad here or the relay or something else goes bad.  I'm guessing your problem may be here if you had flooding.
Safety Rollout Limit Switch - some MES have a panel on the back like halfway up (middle or right hand side when facing back of MES).  This switch cuts off when smoker gets too hot as a safety protection.  Connectors often fail here and when they can often melt down that switch which is normally closed so when it melts down you cannot get power to the element so replace or just splice around it for the time being
If your lower circuit board is shot and you cannot get a replacement then you can always do the simple rewire down there (cut 4 wire ends, splice to make 2 wires) and build or buy a PID controller and have your MES perform 10X better then it ever did new.  Hell better than any MES that has come off the production line haha.

Let us know if you get to this point and we can walk you through it.  All us PID guys are 200% happy with the approach and basically ask "why the hell didn't I do this earlier?!?!"


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## dernektambura (Dec 18, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Yea, thats what i was thinking, i am only seeing the voltage required to activte the relay and not full the voltage needed to operate the element.  I guess my next step is to do surgery and remove the back panel.


if you see VDC to operate relay coil, take a screwdriver and give a couple good wacks on top of the relay (not to hard)... see what happens.... on board relay is mechanical contraption.... it may free up...


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 19, 2020)

Ok, Im sure most of yall already know what Im about to do and say, but just working thru my thoughts as I investigate and post. I did a little more trouble shooting today, drilled out the the rivets on the back, pulled the panel. A little bit of smoke intrusion but not bad. No corroded or burnt connectors.












Turn the unit over to remove the bottom panel, drill out the rivets, but one of the threaded inserts spun inside the unit and was unable to remove lower panel, but no need as the board is accessible without complete removal. A little bit of corrosion but overall not bad.











Pulled the cover, inspected. All connectors to be good, no corrosion, no burn.



















So I study the wiring to see whats going on.... So I check things out from the beginning. Check voltage coming from the cord, white to the panel, black to the relay, 120v, all good.  Check voltage again the element, 18v, no bueno.  The red wire to the element comes from the relay. The black wire to the element comes from the thermostat. The thermostat is fed power via the blue wire which gets power from the panel and connected to white wire from the cord. So I check the voltages there. When the unit is unplugged, 0v. Plugged in, 1v. Turned on, 4v. And when the controller is set to temp and calling for signal, the relay engages and the blue wire sees 120v. Okay, Ive got voltage to the thermostat.  Check voltage on other side of thermostat, which is the wire that feeds the element, 9v. Check the input again, 120v, output 9v.  So it seems that the thermostat is shot. That is making the logical assumptions that the relay acts a switch when the unit calls for power and the thermostat acts as a switch and is closed until the temp is reached and then the switch is open. It seems the thermostat (switch) is in a constant open or is damaged internally so that it is not making full contact.  I tapped with a screwdriver a few times to "loosen" up anything inside, no bueno.  Remove the t-stat , it has some corrosion, but doenst SEEM bad.  So i guess that I need a new thermostat.  This is confirmed when i bypassed the thermostat and hooked the blue wire directly to the element. When the unit is off, nothing. When the controller calls for signal, since there is 120v between the red relay wire, and the blue wire going to the t-stat, well then the element heats up and works as it should, albeit in a constant on situation. At least I got it narrowed down to what the culprit is, now off to find a replacement t-stat.  Between some pitting on the t-stat and my old eyes, it appears to be KSD 301   250v 10A   150*C.   I think this would be a simple fix and i should be back in business shortly, but would be interested to see what some of you guys have done with the PID, anybody got a link?


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## bill1 (Dec 19, 2020)

dernektambura said:


> ...give a couple good wacks on top of the relay...


KJNdiver, this can't hurt and if it's an electromechanical relay may make a difference.  From pics folks have posted here, the relay is a black plastic case part, about 1" square.  If it sticks above the board a full inch or so, then it's probably electromechanical; if only a quarter inch high then it's probably a solid-state relay which  when broken is pretty much unrecoverable.  
But where are you getting readings that you're attributing to  the relay/control voltage?  As I recall how that board is mounted it would be hard to measure this without removing the board.  Most relay failures don't result with the coil voltage ending up on the output contacts.   
Dernek is right that there's enough confusion here that you maybe didn't need a new element.  So have you installed it yet?  If so we'll assume that's a done deal and that part can be assumed good.  Then the question becomes, what symptoms or measurements have you done since then?   If you haven't installed it yet, we'll assume you might want to get a refund so lots of folks (e.g. Dernek) more knowledgeable about this unit than I can help you trouble-shoot it.  
And if you're getting bored with trouble-shooting, buying an" inkbird" or equivalent controller  bypasses all the MB electronics (including relay board) and puts that all in a new, reasonably-priced external unit.  Whether that is an unacceptably ugly fix or a cool modification is up to you but with a new element that is pretty much a guaranteed-successful approach.


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## dr k (Dec 19, 2020)

I picked up a free Mes 30 Gen 1 on FB Marketplace this summer and when I plugged in it beeped and the green power light came on. I set the temp and time and the relay on the bottom PCB clicked and red heating light came on but no heat. I use an Auber PID on my Mes 40 Gen 1 and have a spare power cord with lugs soldered on the hot and neutral wire to connect directly to the element as a back up power source since I did the rewire, using what was in the Mes. I unplugged the smoker, took off back bottom element access, disconnected the element wires and hooked up the power cord to the element and wrapped the stripped green ground around an access screw and tightened to ground the chassis. I checked continuty between the hot neutral plug and each to the back of the smoker and then continuity from the ground plug prong to the back of the smoker so all was in order, then plugged it in and it started heating. Unplugged I cut an access in the back panel with a dremel cut off wheel to get to the over temp switch junction box and removed the two screws inside the smoker to remove the cover. One lug was disintegrated and the entire area was rusted out and had to have been hosed out or pressure washed. I cut the other connected wire, stripped each to new wire and put a wire nut on them and hooked up the Mes back to its standard set up and ran a few cycles before unplugging and closing up the new access I made with the sheet metal cut out piece and aluminum tape. That spare power cord connected directly to the element and ground wire to an access screw is a good tool in itself to test elements that short when hot in a gfci. When the gfci trips unplug and check continuity from the plug to the back of the smoker.


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 19, 2020)

bill1 said:


> KJNdiver, this can't hurt and if it's an electromechanical relay may make a difference.  From pics folks have posted here, the relay is a black plastic case part, about 1" square.  If it sticks above the board a full inch or so, then it's probably electromechanical; if only a quarter inch high then it's probably a solid-state relay which  when broken is pretty much unrecoverable.
> But where are you getting readings that you're attributing to  the relay/control voltage?  As I recall how that board is mounted it would be hard to measure this without removing the board.  Most relay failures don't result with the coil voltage ending up on the output contacts.



The relay seems to be working fine. Im almost positive that it is electromechanical as i can hear an audible click when it engages and feel the "vibration" when it engages. I did remove the board. I checked voltage going to the board to verify that is getting power, then i checked voltages coming from the relay to the element. All that checks out good. I did find the voltage is not going across the t-stat properly. So i think that is the culprit and have ordered from Amazon. My terminology may not be up to snuff as to what is what, but Im pretty certain Im doing the proper verification.



> Dernek is right that there's enough confusion here that you maybe didn't need a new element.  So have you installed it yet?  If so we'll assume that's a done deal and that part can be assumed good.  Then the question becomes, what symptoms or measurements have you done since then?   If you haven't installed it yet, we'll assume you might want to get a refund so lots of folks (e.g. Dernek) more knowledgeable about this unit than I can help you trouble-shoot it.



That very well may be the case. I have already installed the new element. Verified that it works when bypassing the thermostat. So the new element works. I have not tried to hook the old one back up as yet, I may do that and if good keep it for a spare.



> And if you're getting bored with trouble-shooting, buying an" inkbird" or equivalent controller  bypasses all the MB electronics (including relay board) and puts that all in a new, reasonably-priced external unit.  Whether that is an unacceptably ugly fix or a cool modification is up to you but with a new element that is pretty much a guaranteed-successful approach.



I think that may be in the works for the future.


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## tallbm (Dec 19, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Ok, Im sure most of yall already know what Im about to do and say, but just working thru my thoughts as I investigate and post. I did a little more trouble shooting today, drilled out the the rivets on the back, pulled the panel. A little bit of smoke intrusion but not bad. No corroded or burnt connectors.
> 
> View attachment 475907
> View attachment 475908
> ...



What you are calling the thermostate is the Safety Rollout Limit switch.  It is the #2most common area where the connectors fail and/or the switch itself melts down and screws up.
You are right the switch is Normally Closed so if it is messed up and open, it is preventing power from getting to your heating element.

You are also correct that it is a KSD 301 150C.  For now you can wire nut the 2 wires together and it would work you just wouldnt have the safety cutoff if your smoker reaches 302F at that height where the switch/sensor was.

When you order another one MAKE SURE you get one that has a solid face and attachment as one piece like these:
Having extra helps.

Also you may want to cut a panel to access that area easily in the future as these things do melt down.  Also with your smoker apart you may want to upgrade to high temp connectrs at the heating element and the safety rollout limit switch as those Masterbuilt connectors corrode and fail super fast:

I hope this helps and gets you back up and running fast :)


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 20, 2020)

tallbm said:


> When you order another one MAKE SURE you get one that has a solid face and attachment as one piece like these:
> Having extra helps.
> 
> Also you may want to cut a panel to access that area easily in the future as these things do melt down.  Also with your smoker apart you may want to upgrade to high temp connectrs at the heating element and the safety rollout limit switch as those Masterbuilt connectors corrode and fail super fast:
> ...



Not sure what the difference is between the one you recomended and the one that i  had already ordered. Appear similar, but appearances can be deceiving. Will do on the cutout, I was already thinking the same thing.  I have ordered the connectors as well. May not change right away, but will have on hand for when needed.


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 20, 2020)

So, which is more likely?  Did the safety switch do its job, meaning I had an over heat condition?  Or is this just a compromised inexpensive part that just periodically requires replacement?  I dont think i have ever used the unit wide open except for the first firing to season the inside. I almost always smoke in the 225-250 range. The safety switch, is it a one and done piece of equipment? Meaning if it were an actual overheat situation, would it do its job and then would require replacement? Or would it reset and continue to perform its functions?  Just curious.


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## bill1 (Dec 20, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> So, which is more likely?  Did the safety switch do its job, meaning I had an over heat condition?  Or is this just a compromised inexpensive part that just periodically requires replacement?  I dont think i have ever used the unit wide open except for the first firing to season the inside. I almost always smoke in the 225-250 range. The safety switch, is it a one and done piece of equipment? Meaning if it were an actual overheat situation, would it do its job and then would require replacement? Or would it reset and continue to perform its functions?  Just curious.


That style switch is bimetallic based...if you remember the old "automatic chokes" on carburetors (typically a heater hose was ran past it) it works the same  way...two laminated metal strips expand at different rates with temperature so they actually move (to open an electrical contact or rotate a choke plate) when heat is applied.  They have an "action" temperature (the 150C=300F) at which a "normally closed" (conducting) switch will open (to prevent further heating of an in-line element) and then a reset temperature, typically 30F lower, where the NC switch, which opened, becomes closed again.  It can be used again, but not hundreds of times so they should be a protective backup to a separate thermostat system, not front-line defense, even if a ~30F temp control range seems adequate to you.  If they don't reset by room temp (an NC model that reads open)  they're broken...if you shake and tap them, they may become conductive again but that's kinds of dangerous...they may not then open again in their normal manner.  

I believe their primary failure mechanism is corrosion--they tend to have steel parts like pivot pins etc inside, that just rust away.  If they look pretty bad, replace them.  As with most switches, you want "bright and shiny".  Granted the outside appearance isn't what counts but that's all you have to go by.


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## tallbm (Dec 20, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Not sure what the difference is between the one you recomended and the one that i  had already ordered. Appear similar, but appearances can be deceiving. Will do on the cutout, I was already thinking the same thing.  I have ordered the connectors as well. May not change right away, but will have on hand for when needed.



The ones u ordered will not work.

Look closely at the image of the ones I posted.  The button sensor and the fastening plate are all 1 piece of metal. 
The ones you posted are 2 pieces of metal where the fastening plate moves.  It is not fixed the button sensor.  I made the same mistake once in the as as well so if you can cancel your order and change it for the one I posted you can maybe safe yourself some grief.  

There is just no sensible way to make the ones you posted work because the 2 pieces float/move from one another leaving a gap that smoke will absolutely get through and no way for your sensor to stay fixed and pushed all the way forward into the smoker interior.


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## tallbm (Dec 20, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> So, which is more likely?  Did the safety switch do its job, meaning I had an over heat condition?  Or is this just a compromised inexpensive part that just periodically requires replacement?  I dont think i have ever used the unit wide open except for the first firing to season the inside. I almost always smoke in the 225-250 range. The safety switch, is it a one and done piece of equipment? Meaning if it were an actual overheat situation, would it do its job and then would require replacement? Or would it reset and continue to perform its functions?  Just curious.



Those safety rollout limit switches are auot reset so if they trip they will go back to close after they cool down.  They are also just cheap and delicate causing them to fail easily on you.  I would bet $10 it just failed due to whatever caused so much rust on it... I've had a number fail on me.  
They usually fail because the corroding connectors stop connecting well leading to overheating at the tab which melts and/or damages the switch.  Yours looks rusted so that would be my guess.

ALSO IMPORTANT, when you put new connectors on these stupid switches if you WIGGLE the tabs at all you can expect the switch to melt down at some point in the future.  A ceramic one would be better but is harder to find.
Again these switches are delicate.

The easiest way I've found to work with them is to add the connectors on each tab just to where they push on somewhat but not all the way.

Then hold the switch on a block of wood standing up on one of these connects and tap the top connector downwards with a small hammer.  This will make the top or bottom connector slide down in the completely installed position you want.
Rotate to the other connector and repeat.  Do this until both connectors are on the tabs and you wont have wiggled, bent, rotated, etc. the tabs at the base where they connect to the back of the switch.

NOW, you put the wire into the connectors and crimp.
FINALLY, you fasten the thing to the smoker.

If you do it like that and in that order you wont wiggle the tabs at all which causes the switch to melt down on you after sometime.  It took me a while to figure out what was causing my switches to keep melting... It was the fact that they were delicate, cheap, and any wiggling somehow compromises the switch so it melts after a while.


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 20, 2020)

Good to know.  Thanks for the info everyone.


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## bill1 (Dec 20, 2020)

Here's a little more info on the internals of these switches.  


			https://www.calcoelectric.com/images/pdfs_thermostats/calco_ksd301series.pdf


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## dernektambura (Dec 21, 2020)

bill1 said:


> Then the question becomes, what symptoms or measurements have you done since then?   If you haven't installed it yet, we'll assume you might want to get a refund so lots of folks (e.g. Dernek) more knowledgeable about this unit than I can help you trouble-shoot it.


Man, you're giving me to much credit... I don't own plug and play type smoker... it's just that all smokers electrical design is pretty much same and easiest way to troubleshoot is to start disconnecting from end (heater and measure voltage....
Electrical design of smokers is based on idea:
in order to enter next room ( walk out of the room you're in ) you must make sure previous door (door you walked in that room) stays closed.... in other words: for electricity to flow freely gates need to be closed...


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 25, 2020)

Well.......back to the drawing board.   Ordered the replacement parts. They came in a few days ago.  Was sitting around on this fine Christmas day and decided to put the smoker back together. Got all the parts installed, put new screws in place of rivets on back panel, tightened and adjusted everything inside. Plugged her in, turned her on and she warms up like the prom queen in backseat of car.  Put some chips in the tray and turned it on wide open to 275 to burn some of the funk out of it from sitting around a while.  Temp climbed to 180 and it was just starting to smoke so i walked away for bit to do something else. When i come back the temp was 150.  Waited around a bit and it just kept dropping lower and lower. When it got down to 130 i just unplugged it and said Ill have to trouble shoot it another day as Im about to go somewhere for another round of holiday groceries at my parents house.  So now Im right back where i started from. Everything appears to be in working order, but she no workie.  The roll out switch will now be my first place to look since that is the part that was changed. Good thing you can buy em 5 at a time, but dang, you would think it would have lasted longer than 20 min.


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## tallbm (Dec 25, 2020)

KJNDIVER said:


> Well.......back to the drawing board.   Ordered the replacement parts. They came in a few days ago.  Was sitting around on this fine Christmas day and decided to put the smoker back together. Got all the parts installed, put new screws in place of rivets on back panel, tightened and adjusted everything inside. Plugged her in, turned her on and she warms up like the prom queen in backseat of car.  Put some chips in the tray and turned it on wide open to 275 to burn some of the funk out of it from sitting around a while.  Temp climbed to 180 and it was just starting to smoke so i walked away for bit to do something else. When i come back the temp was 150.  Waited around a bit and it just kept dropping lower and lower. When it got down to 130 i just unplugged it and said Ill have to trouble shoot it another day as Im about to go somewhere for another round of holiday groceries at my parents house.  So now Im right back where i started from. Everything appears to be in working order, but she no workie.  The roll out switch will now be my first place to look since that is the part that was changed. Good thing you can buy em 5 at a time, but dang, you would think it would have lasted longer than 20 min.



Switch is my guess.  Those things are super delicate.  If you wiggle, bend, or cause any movement of the tab where it meats the back of the switch then it will fail on you at some point... sooner or later.  Sounds like in this case maybe sooner.

You can always just wire nut those wires around the rollout switch to limp through  a smoke.
If you can find the ceramic backed switches then it may be more durable but I'm just guessing since I'm still burning up my plastic backed ones hahaha and wire nut around when it happens.  heck I think I'm wired around atm, might have to check.


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## mosparky (Dec 25, 2020)

When it's dropping temp when it should be heating, check voltage across the roll out. Zero volts  working and not the problem. 120 VAC  open switch and theres your problem.


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## bill1 (Dec 27, 2020)

Did you replace that "roll out switch" at mid-height in the unit?  I suspect a lot of these things get mislabeled/confused throughout the distribution chains and getting a lower or higher opening temp than you ordered is quite common.  Paying more and using well-respected distributors (instead of Amazon) helps the last step in the chain but it can be pretty convoluted in the first dozen steps of these Chinese-sourced products and even the best US distributors are pretty powerless to control that.  

Also, some vendors will knowingly send you the wrong thing if they're out of stock on the _right _thing just so they can take credit for the sale in that fiscal month with full knowledge they're going to have to go through the hassle of a no-cost replacement later on.  

And I shouldn't blame on malice that which can be explained by incompetence.  In other words, worldwide Covid and seasonal hiring patterns mean a lot of inexperienced (or unguided) people are in the labor pool now so errors like confusing opening and reset temps, 1.8 conversions from F to C occurring twice, etc etc are happening more frequently.


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 27, 2020)

Well, I got both orders delivered,  the 2 piece that inadvertently ordered and the one piece design.  I see what you mean now.  Yea, the one piece is a "better" design.   I suspect you may be right Bill, as I have turned the unit back on without touching anything and watched closely,  it heats up to about 183-184 and then it shuts off.  I've done this 3 times now.  So I suspect that either the dang thing is damaged or its not actually the one I need.  I never inspected after receiving the order,  just installed it.   I'm at the deer camp this week, ill have to look into it further when I return.


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## bill1 (Dec 27, 2020)

Well there may not be anything to look at.  A lot of these are just stamped KSD301 with the V and I rating.  A few will give the temp in C that they open up at but not all.  So you can imagine how hard it is to properly stock a part like that.  Sounds like you got an 80 or 85C model.  It works fine, just not at the temp you wanted.  

It's hard to imagine anyone wanting one opening at this low a temp so they're probably the last ones to sell out!  Even if all you're protecting is low-temp plastics, 180F=80C seems kinda' worthless.  Although I guess that's the threshold for getting a surface skin burn so if you want to keep an external surface from burning someone you might want an 80C switch.  So I guess nothing's truly worthless.  All God's children got a place in the choir.   

Here's a choir of them that open at 80C and below.  At least they're stamped with the temp:


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 30, 2020)

Ok....upon further investigation... it is indeed as bill suggests.... i have the wrong item installed.   I pulled out my glasses so my old eyes could see better and the parts are stamped with all the info except for the temp rating. So that was no help.  I go back and look at my order from amazon, go back to the page... THEN i see that there are options for different products and different temps. Apparently I had inadvertently clicked on one of the other lower temp items and not noticed it.  I look at my order and get info, compare that to the different items offered, and i did indeed order one for only 80*C and not the 150* one.   So i pull out the bag for the other order i had made, the one with the two part item.  It is stamped for the 150*C.  I hook it up and immediately notice how the two part item will not be a good solution long term. Just a mess.  But hooked everything up, put it all back together and she works just like new.  Took 10 min to heat up to the 180*F on the controller, then went on thru to 275*F in the next 10 min. When it got to the max setting of 275 i heard the relay kick out and the light on panel went off. I opened the door, the temps fell, but the relay did not kick back in until 260*F.  Took a few minutes, but started climbing again. It went all the way to 275 again and kicked out. But the temp kept rising on thru up to 283*F.  I watched for a few cycles and as its cooling the relay kicks in and light comes on at 273 but the temps keep falling to 267 (door closed). It heats up, cuts out at 275 but temps keep going to 284.  As its cooling it kicks in at 273 but the "momentum" keeps going to 268 before climbing again and then on thru the high side again to 284.   Thats a pretty wild temp swing for trying to regulate at 275.  Oh well, i dont use it at those temps and then i suppose thats why some of you guys have installed the other style controllers to better regulate the temps in a more stable range.   I guess thats just the system that MB supplies.  For most folks i guess its good.   Anyway, i wanted to come back and say thanks again for all the help and pointers along the way.....  i foresee some smoked meat again in my near future.  Thanks again guys, i appreciate it.


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## bill1 (Dec 30, 2020)

So you're saying with the controller set to 180F it barrels on through until something trips at 275?  275 is close enough to 300F (150C) that I think you're just opening and closing the switch you just replaced.  That is not the way the thing was designed to control temp.  

Why do you say "heard the relay kick out"?  Are you sure you're hearing the actual black plastic electromechanical relay on the bottom board?  Those "roll-out" bimetallic switches that you just replaced makes a similar switching sound.  Like Dernek says, the electromechanical relays fail frequently.  Luckily the pics you posted show you have one of the models where that power board comes out easily.  MB normally stocks that entire board for $37 but they're out of stock now.  

You've shown impressive skills so far...want to try some troubleshooting or even soldering?  I'm pretty sure that relay is a Hongfa HF2160-1A-12DE.  On the back side of the board you'll see two pins close together and two others further apart that are redundant with the connectors on top.  The two pins close together are the 12VDC coil control signal.  The trouble-shooting involves operating the unit with that board out so you can get a dc voltmeter onto those two pins.  You may have to lay the unit on it's back.  And you'll want to cover over all the rest of the board with plastic and/or electrical tape before you plug in the power cord so only the relay control (coil) pins are exposed so you don't get shocked.  You should read 12V as the thing warms up to your 180F setpoint.  Then it should go to near zero and the temp should stabilize.  If it goes to 0Vdc but the temp keeps rising, the relay is bad.  If it stays at 12V, the relay is doing its job and your problem is upstream in the controller.  

If you need a new relay, or you just think it's worth replacing instead of trouble-shooting, you can get two of them for $11 with 1 week delivery from a US distributor or for $6 direct from the East with 1 month delivery.  Here's some links: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-12V-HF2160-1A-12DE-4pins-30A-240VAC-Relay/291748837318 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-2pcs-12V-HF2160-1A-12DE-4-Pins-30A-240VAC-Relay/401553055755 
Note this requires some simple soldering and you'll want some solder wick to get the old one out.  

Please verify the relay P/N is what I think before you order anything.  The datasheet for this relay is at: 


			https://datasheet.octopart.com/HF2160-1A-12DE%28257%29-Hongfa-datasheet-12557546.pdf


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## KJNDIVER (Dec 30, 2020)

No, thats not what I was intending to say.  The unit was set to 275*F as I stated that i wanted to burn out some funk inside the box.  I mention the 180*F only so much as that was the sticking point that I was reaching with the previous (incorrect) switch.  Thats all.   The unit works as intended.   And yes as mentioned in my initial post I am hearing the relay kick in and out on the bottom of the unit.  It is the relay as whenever i hear the sound the light on the dashboard indicating burner is hot also comes on at exact same time.  I do not hear the sound at any other times.   I think i can pass on that troubleshooting for now, as I dont feel theres a need. But Ill keep that in mind if I come to that bridge.  Thanks.


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## bill1 (Dec 31, 2020)

Sounds like you have a fully functioning unit then.  Great news, just sorry I was slow to understand that.


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