# Noob needs guidance sharpening knives



## rohfan2112 (Dec 18, 2013)

I recently bought a Smith's Tri-Hone sharpener, which is 3 stones--coarse, medium and fine. Using them, I was able to sharpen a dull knife with the tri-hone and I figured a higher grit and a strop would make my knife even sharper. I was wrong, and now I'm in the process of trying to figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong. Suffice to say I'm very discouraged at this point and am considering something like a Lansky system or similar but I want to get this right.

When I use the new stones, the 1000, then the 6000, the edge of the knife seems extremely smooth but it barely cuts paper. I used a homemade strop loaded with green compound and the edge of the knife gets nice and shiny but I'm missing something somewhere. The edge almost feels rounded. Is that what is called a "layover?"

I'm doing one (or a combo) of the following wrong:
1--too much pressure
2--angle not steady enough
3--knife edge terrible to begin with
4--strop is rounding off the edge

Has anyone been where I'm at and have found a solution? I'm very interested if anyone would like to share their sharpening journey. Thanks!


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## chef jimmyj (Dec 18, 2013)

Yep, I have been where you are at. Below is the fix I used. Four years old and knives you can shave with...JJ


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## wade (Dec 19, 2013)

I have used a similar model of Chefs Choice sharpener too for several years and find it sharpens very well. You should not need to use the coarse setting too often though.


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## chipotleq (Dec 19, 2013)

Sharpening is an art. As of now I am still trying to learn to sharpen a carbon steel straight razor and been doing it for a couple of years. Sharpening a large knife is much easier. Few questions I have for you;

1- what type of steel are you working with

2- how damaged is your edge

3. are your stones flat, meaning they have to be completely flat to do a good job.

Dont get discouraged, sharpening is a learning process and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to sharpen anything. Really skilled sharpeners can put an edge on a blade with concrete and newspaper.


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## foamheart (Dec 19, 2013)

First unless you are cutting newspaper with the knife, there is no sense using it as a gauge. Knives' edges need to be constantly re-set, not a major sharpening, that's what a steel is for. Its readjusts the edge so its not literally bent out of shape. Having an edge you can shave with is good if you are shaving, not so good for cutting meat. A thin edged blade (small angle of attack) is sharp but doesn't hold its edge. You give up some of the sharpness for a greater durability by increasing the sharpening angle.

The sharpening device is a great tool until you become more proficient at sharpening. I started sharpening as a kid. Long before Boy Scouts taught me more. My Pop's favorite phrase was "A dull knife is like and unloaded gun, dangerous and useless!"

Practice first with your stone, then use the device when you get too frustrated. One day the light comes on and you just know. Then you'll forget again....LOL Sometimes ya push, sometimes ya pull, and some steel you pull backwards. Then you think you know, and decide to finish with a ceramic stone and have to start all over again...LOL

Don't let it bother you. Everyone gets snake bite sometimes. Biggest thing to remember is that a really good knife isn't a good investment until you can find a way to sharpen it. My experience is the better the knife the harder it is to sharpen because of the steel. Low carbon steel are best to learn on, I actually prefer mild steel as a pocket knife. My first Buck knife nearly drove me crazy trying to sharpen it till a friend showed me a better way.


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## chipotleq (Dec 19, 2013)

The newspaper would be used as a finishing strop, given the abrasive microns particles found on ink are well suited for stropping carbon steel


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## foamheart (Dec 19, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> The newspaper would be used as a finishing strop, given the abrasive microns particles found on ink are well suited for stropping carbon steel


I was referring to his statement that his "barely cuts paper", with his sharpened blade. I have some leather strops around here but only used them long ago with a straight razor. Never attempted to maintain that fine an edge upon a cutting/ slicing blade and definitely not a chopping knife.

But its just my opinion. And we all know what opinions are like.

No offense was meant.


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## badmoont2 (Dec 19, 2013)

I have a Chefs Choice sharpener like Chef Jimmy J's, it works very well. I also agree with Wade that the coarse grit is seldom needed.. I use a round ceramic rod similar to a steel to touch up once in a while. A sharp knife is a pleasure to use and it's well worth while to learn how to get your knives sharp and keep them that way.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 19, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> Sharpening is an art. As of now I am still trying to learn to sharpen a carbon steel straight razor and been doing it for a couple of years. Sharpening a large knife is much easier. Few questions I have for you;
> 
> 1- what type of steel are you working with
> 
> ...


1-I assume you mean what kind of knife? They're mostly the run of the mill knives that cost under $50. They're all stainless, don't know how much carbon content. If you mean the actual steel, it's metal and has grooves in it top to bottom. Don't know the name brand.

2-They're nicely damaged.

3-No idea. I guess I have to check that out. What do you recommend?


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## chipotleq (Dec 19, 2013)

By steel i meant the knife steel. So if you have a cheap stainless, you have a nice setup to sharpen those. Just keep in mind that freehand sharpening takes practice since it is important to manually grind down the edge at consistent angles on both sides. If you have a steady wrist, it should be no problem and eventually youll get it. If you dont havr steady hands than any of the auto guided systems will work fine or even the electrical grinder too. But if you can sharpen free hand with stones, then youll get a better edge on your knifes.

First you must apply medium pressure on the cheap stainless blades. The weight of the blade against the stones plus a bit pressure is all you need. You must use the coarse and tackle the knife aggresively on one side only until you feel you have developed a burr on the other side of the edge. Give it a good minute of agressive grinding on one side and feel with your nail or thumb the burr. Once you have developed a good burr, them grind it off by sharpening the other side until you develop yet another burr but on the opposite side. Do that until you have a nice cutting edge and then do single strikes at the stones on each side until that burr turns into a fine edge. You should have a nice cutting edge on your knife already and good good enough to cut meat. The serrartions will be rough but sharp. 

Second you can continue the even strokes on each side with the medium grit if tou want a smoother edge. The medium is good for overall prep work. Only finish with the fine if you want to shave with your knife, but for meat prep medium is all you need. 

Stainless will not keep a keen edge you must regring every other month or so if you use every weekend. Also remember to hone with a grooved steel before every use, just a few light strokes


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## mdboatbum (Dec 19, 2013)

rohfan2112 said:


> I'm doing one (or a combo) of the following wrong:
> 1--too much pressure *Doubtful*
> 2--angle not steady enough *Likely*
> 3--knife edge terrible to begin with *Shouldn't matter if you're grinding a new edge*
> 4--strop is rounding off the edge *I guess that depends on what you're doing with it. *


The 2 most important things I've found with sharpening have been keeping a consistent angle and raising a burr. You will just get a feel for the angle, but at first you might try holding your thumb under the back of the knife as a guide. That will give you a pretty steep edge depending on your thumb, but it'll give you a consistent one. As for the burr, keep feeling the edge opposite the one you're sharpening (IE: the top when you're sharpening the bottom on the stone) with your fingernail until you just feel a burr all along the edge. You'll be running your nail in the direction of the edge from the spine and off the edge. If you're not getting a burr, you're just getting a pretty, polished edge but not actually sharpening the knife. My guess is that if you're getting a polished edge but a dull knife, you're at too shallow of an angle.

Once you get a burr on one side, do the other side until you raise a burr and then proceed to the next finer stone and start all over again. On the last stone (or strop) you really are just polishing, so you can alternate sides with each stroke to keep things even and polish off any remaining burr.

The Lansky system works ok, but it's tricky for blades over 7" or so and also for flexible blades. Also the included stones are not great for hard stainless steel. With a tri-hone you should be able to get a shaving sharp edge. Then maintain it with a honing steel and you should only have to sharpen once a year.

The Chef's choice 130 is what it is. It'll give you a sharp knife but it removes a LOT of metal, so just be careful. There is a learning curve with it too, so plan on sacrificing an old or cheap knife while you're getting the hang of it. I didn't realize how destructive it was until I'd ruined my Henckel's chef knife.


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## gamehawg (Dec 19, 2013)

The worksharp knife sharpening system is superb.  

They have a new 'Ken Onion' version that is highly rated, I have the regular one and am quite pleased with it.


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## jirodriguez (Dec 19, 2013)

I used to hand sharpen my knives with a stone, but am now lazy and use a Chef's Choice electic sharpener similar to the one Chef Jimmy showes above. I run my knives over the rough stone only once or twice a year, but I run them over the medium and fine settings once a month. That combined with using a sharpening steel before each use keeps my knives very sharp and ready to use all the time.

If you need a good decent knife that won't break the bank I suggest the Victorinox Forschner knives. They have a decent enough steel to hold and edge and be sharpened repeatedly, but they don't look as fancy as some of the "big name" block sets.


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## handymanstan (Dec 19, 2013)

I have used a whetstone for at least the last 25 years and I keep it in the toilet tank to keep it wet and save water. I have several sharpeners but I can grab this and do a knife faster then setting up a sharpener.  I can not convince my wife that using my Knifes on the glass cutting board is not a good thing. 






Stan


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## timberjet (Dec 19, 2013)

HANDYMANSTAN said:


> I have used a whetstone for at least the last 25 years and I keep it in the toilet tank to keep it wet and save water. I have several sharpeners but I can grab this and do a knife faster then setting up a sharpener.  I can not convince my wife that using my Knifes on the glass cutting board is not a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh man stan that sends chills up my spine just thinking about that sound of metal on glass cutting boards. yuk.


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## timberjet (Dec 19, 2013)

I worked in a restaurant when I was younger and there was a very fussy chef there who schooled me on how not to dull a kitchen knife so quickly. Never scrape whatever you are cutting up off the board with the edge of that knife. Never use a glass cutting board. Always use a steel or ceramic to buff up the edge before and after use. That is about all I remember though. Last year I butchered a ton of game for friends and really learned how to use a stone. One more note is watch your local thrift stores and yard sales for good carbon steel knives. You know the ones with the wood handles and are not shiny. Those suckers really get sharp and are easy to maintain. My grandmother passed away last year and I got some good old knives that have probably been in the family since the old country. Man they are sharp.


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## ajbert (Dec 19, 2013)

gamehawg said:


> The worksharp knife sharpening system is superb.
> 
> They have a new 'Ken Onion' version that is highly rated, I have the regular one and am quite pleased with it.


X2 on the WorkSharp.  I love it for sharpening up the knives around the house plus the machete and many other edged tools, including scissors and yard tools.

However, for my hunting/skinning knives I like to keep a very precise angle.  I use a Smith, much like the Lansky, for those knives.  The WorkSharp doesn't put an "angle" like we are all used to.  It kind of rounds the angle down to the edge of the knife.  Works great and comes with a couple of different guides to get different angles depending on what you plan on using the knife/tool for.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 20, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> By steel i meant the knife steel. So if you have a cheap stainless, you have a nice setup to sharpen those. Just keep in mind that freehand sharpening takes practice since it is important to manually grind down the edge at consistent angles on both sides. If you have a steady wrist, it should be no problem and eventually youll get it. If you dont havr steady hands than any of the auto guided systems will work fine or even the electrical grinder too. But if you can sharpen free hand with stones, then youll get a better edge on your knifes.
> 
> First you must apply medium pressure on the cheap stainless blades. The weight of the blade against the stones plus a bit pressure is all you need. You must use the coarse and tackle the knife aggresively on one side only until you feel you have developed a burr on the other side of the edge. Give it a good minute of agressive grinding on one side and feel with your nail or thumb the burr. Once you have developed a good burr, them grind it off by sharpening the other side until you develop yet another burr but on the opposite side. Do that until you have a nice cutting edge and then do single strikes at the stones on each side until that burr turns into a fine edge. You should have a nice cutting edge on your knife already and good good enough to cut meat. The serrartions will be rough but sharp.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the above. I'll give it a shot and report back on this thread. In the meantime I think I have to get some better knives.


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## daveomak (Dec 20, 2013)

I like the belt sander in my shop for sharpening knives.... then a few strokes with the steel....  Crude, very crude....... but it works for me......


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## glocksrock (Dec 20, 2013)

I use a Spyderco sharpmaker to sharpen all of my knives, it's really easy to use and get's them razor sharp. It's about $50 last time I looked, but it's worth every penny.


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## chipotleq (Dec 20, 2013)

Cheap stamped stainless blades are good and get sharp. But the edge dont last that long and they stainless is very hard to sharpen also.

Try buying carbin steel knives. The ol hickory sets that are on amazon are cheap but really good knives. They are very easy to sharpen and keep an edge. Those all you need to sharpen is a medium grit stone and a leather strop. The only downside is the maintenance, they rust if left on wer locations. You must wash and dry immediately followed by a light coat of oil. They develop a patina and are not shiny once they get it. But patina is good, somewhat prevents rust and shows the character of the knife.


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## chipotleq (Dec 20, 2013)

You can also buy the high carbon stainless steels, like vg10 or sg2. But those run no less than $100 a peace. They keep an edge for a year with out grinding, only honing and occassional polish on a high grit stone, like 8000 grit


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## coyote flatz (Dec 20, 2013)

Chef JimmyJ said:


> Yep, I have been where you are at. Below is the fix I used. Four years old and knives you can shave with...JJ


Have had one of these for years and love it...  Recommended by a fine chef who uses one every day.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 20, 2013)

Coyote Flatz said:


> Have had one of these for years and love it...  Recommended by a fine chef who uses one every day.


You know, I'll probably wind up buying one of those. I seem to be okay until I get to the finer grits then it just gets shiny and smooth, but not sharper.


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## chipotleq (Dec 20, 2013)

Those chef grinders are ok, but i would never use a grinder like that on my knives. They eat alot of stock and are only good for a hollow ground type of blade. Those chef grinders are ok for the cheap stamped stainless. But it you plan on purchasing expensive steel blades, i would learn free hand sharpening for that.


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## chipotleq (Dec 20, 2013)

And dont use green compound strop on your stainless. They will only polish the blade and that is it. Stainless is very hard metal and the fine micron grit on green compound will do nothing for stainless, not even the high carbon stainless. The compound is more for carbon steel sharpening, that will grind fine stock out of carbon blades.


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## redwood carlos (Dec 20, 2013)

ChipotleQ has given you some good advice.

1. Sharpening by hand takes practice practice and more practice.

You must hold the exact angle every time. Did I say practice was needed, because it is.

2. Sharpening steels are not sharpening anything. They are laying the edge straight again. A perfectly sharp edge is a line of molecules sitting on more molecules. Thinner than foil obviously. This edge is being rolled to one side or the other while in use. Of course the edge will wear away, and dull over time, but it is the rolling edge that takes most of the performance out of your blade.

3. The quality of an edge is what is supporting it. Knives have different uses hacking, chopping, cutting, slicing, sashimi, shaving etc....The angle of the micro bevel should be chosen accordingly. 35deg per side for hacking total 70 degrees; 30; 25; 20; 15(one side only); 10... Of course steel choice and heat treat determine the ultimate angle that can be achieved without rolling over (too soft for the job) or chipping out(too hard for the job). 

P.S. I use the paper wheels sharpening system myself, after learning how to sharpen by hand.


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## chipotleq (Dec 20, 2013)

Those razor sharp paper wheels are nice. I use them on my pocket knives or for a quick polish. I myself have the paper wheel, tormek t7(only use when i regrind all my knives in bulk along with families and neighbors knives), shapton ceramic glass from 8k to 30k grit, shapton flattening lap plate, japanese 1k/4k combo stone, norton 220 grit stone, harbor freight 1" belt sander with like 100 different type belts and grits, leather belt strop for my straight edge shaving razor and some carbon blades i have, and two honing steels. What can i say, its my hobby and i know the riddle of the steel, lol.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 21, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> Those razor sharp paper wheels are nice. I use them on my pocket knives or for a quick polish. I myself have the paper wheel, tormek t7(only use when i regrind all my knives in bulk along with families and neighbors knives), shapton ceramic glass from 8k to 30k grit, shapton flattening lap plate, japanese 1k/4k combo stone, norton 220 grit stone, harbor freight 1" belt sander with like 100 different type belts and grits, leather belt strop for my straight edge shaving razor and some carbon blades i have, and two honing steels. What can i say, its my hobby and i know the riddle of the steel, lol.


So, Chippy-Q, I take it you're a fan of the blade, eh? :)   I am the home audio/home theater version of you!


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## chipotleq (Dec 21, 2013)

I am also into home theater, Klipsch and denon system here lol


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 21, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> I am also into home theater, Klipsch and denon system here lol


My system is a 7.1 Marantz with preouts for the fronts into a 2ch Emotiva amp. My mains are vintage Polk SDA2's, the rest are in-wall Polks. I also have an external powered sub, and an external 1ch amp that powers the bass shakers (tactile transducers) that are attached to the frames of my sofas for extra bone-crunching bass that you actually feel.


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## chipotleq (Dec 22, 2013)

that is what I need, an emotiva 5 channel amp. My denon turns off when I bump it up with live music blu rays. Or maybe only an emotiva 3 channel, if they have one. I figure I only need the extra juice for the mains and center.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 22, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> that is what I need, an emotiva 5 channel amp. My denon turns off when I bump it up with live music blu rays. Or maybe only an emotiva 3 channel, if they have one. I figure I only need the extra juice for the mains and center.


You need the Emotiva XPA-3 which is a 3 channel amp with 220 watts at 8 ohms and 330 at 4 ohms all channels driven. The Emo amp was a huge update for my system and I will get the XPA-2 in the future for my fronts. I don't use a center speaker as the sonic characteristics of the SDA would be impossible to timbre-match. Besides, they sound great using phantom center mode anyway and they throw out the widest soundstage you will EVER hear.


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## chipotleq (Dec 22, 2013)

Probably in February I'll get an xpa-3. You got a nice set up with the polks and your sub attached to the couch. I will have to check that out, as it is, my wife already want to kick me out of the house, she thinks there is an earth quake when I play heavy LFE movies.


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 22, 2013)

chipotleQ said:


> Probably in February I'll get an xpa-3. You got a nice set up with the polks and your sub attached to the couch. I will have to check that out, as it is, my wife already want to kick me out of the house, she thinks there is an earth quake when I play heavy LFE movies.


Emo all the way. Damn company even sent me a Christmas card!!  The shakers will be in full force for tonight's movie, "Elysium."


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## rohfan2112 (Dec 23, 2013)

To update the original post, I've gone ahead and ordered the Lansky Standard Sharpening kit. It has 3 stones--coarse, medium, and fine. With some practice I was able to put a nice edge on my cheapo knives. I just ordered the ultra fine stone as I feel they can be sharper. The knives are almost shaving-sharp so I will report back after I use the new stone.


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## ribwizzard (Jan 15, 2014)

My vote goes to the work sharp knife sharpener. I have almost every sharpening system listed here and then some. Used to be a big hobby of mine as we'll. 

Never cared for any of the " systems" , I'd go with a set of good stones over them in a heart beat, just very hard to find any decent ones of any size anymore. Mine were bought in Cherokee N.c. Almost 40 years ago, and some were given to me from my grand dad that I'm sure are a good 60 or 70 years old. I use those for my old uncle Henry's and schrades . Use both water and oil stones. But now I'd rather just keep them wrapped up and stored safely!

Chief choice is easy to use and puts a decent edge on kitchen knifes, but eats up way to much blade material.

Diamond paper will put a razor sharp edge, especially used wet, and if it was some kind of competition, I'd probably go with paper,

But the work sharp is so handy, easy to use, and I like the ideal of the rounded edge, I think it's the best of both worlds for sharpness and durability.


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## sb59 (Jan 17, 2014)

I got the Chefs Choice mod.120 , 6 deer ago. You use the coarse wheel the first time you sharpen your knife because you must change your hollow ground edge to their trizor edge. From then on you will use the medium grit or only the strop wheel. After the first sharpening I have yet to use more then the last or strop wheel. I do however touch up well before the knife becomes too dull. One trick is when I butcher a deer I use only a 5" flexible boning knife. Three of them! As soon as one starts to feel a little less sharp I switch to the next one. Saves time both butchering and honing. When done I clean them up and pass them twice through the honing wheel. Takes far less time then I've spent typing this. Read instructions carefully. Best edge for raw meat and fish is by first sharpening with wheel 1 followed by wheel 3. Don't use wheel 2.  Wheel 2 & 3 used for chefs knives, steak knives etc. Used wheel 3 & 1 system on my Buck knife for a test and have gutted and skinned 3 deer with no more then a buff needed in between. Very little steel lost if done correctly.


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## dcarch (Jan 17, 2014)

I never understood the need for surgical sharp blades for the kitchen, unless you are a professional sushi chef.

A relatively sharp knife is all you need for effective cutting and slicing.

I also don't understand why it is such a high art to sharpen a knife. It is very discouraging for many to even try.

Not to disparage knife enthusiasts and hobbyists, for the typical kitchen sharpening, it all boils down to: rough stone for quick metal removal, and fine stone for final edge, just keep the same angle while you are sharpening, don't worry about convex, concave, compound angles, hollow ground, stropping, etc. Not a rocket science to have very sharp knives in the kitchen.

It is not that difficult to be able to sharpen at the same angle. Use a Sharpie/marker to mark the edge, start grinding with a sharper angle, and gradually increase the angle until you see the mark on the edge just disappeared and that would be the final correct angle for that particular knife. Try to keep that same angle as you are moving the knife on the stone.

dcarch


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## ribwizzard (Jan 17, 2014)

> Very little steel lost if done correctly.


Thats where I had the issue with it.  The cheif choice is outstandingly easy for doing large cheif knives,with the magnet holding the perfect angle, you just drag it through the guide, ..but for my filet knives and small pocket knives, where the tip is very important for me, I found it to be some what awkward.Thats where my comment comes from about eating away too much material.  Knives will eventally get a rounded tip before you notice it.  So for years I kept the cheif choice handy for my kitchen knives, but wouldnt go near it with my more valuable knives, and always used the stone or diamond paper on them.  The work sharp , for me, gives me better control over the entire length of the blade and now I find myself using it more than any other sharpener I own. And its fun to use.


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## sb59 (Jan 17, 2014)

dcarch said:


> I never understood the need for surgical sharp blades for the kitchen, unless you are a professional sushi chef.
> 
> A relatively sharp knife is all you need for effective cutting and slicing.
> 
> ...





Ribwizzard said:


> Thats where I had the issue with it.  The cheif choice is outstandingly easy for doing large cheif knives,with the magnet holding the perfect angle, you just drag it through the guide, ..but for my filet knives and small pocket knives, where the tip is very important for me, I found it to be some what awkward.Thats where my comment comes from about eating away too much material.  Knives will eventally get a rounded tip before you notice it.  So for years I kept the cheif choice handy for my kitchen knives, but wouldnt go near it with my more valuable knives, and always used the stone or diamond paper on them.  The work sharp , for me, gives me better control over the entire length of the blade and now I find myself using it more than any other sharpener I own. And its fun to use.


This is my point. I've never tried every system, and they all probably work when done correctly. I used to use strictly the Lansky system, but even then I seldom used more then the finest stone. If you do more then hone up the burr every time you resharpen then you are waiting to long to resharpen! No matter what the system, even separate stones,steels & strops blade loss should be minimal. Most times you should be only straighting the burr.


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## ribwizzard (Jan 17, 2014)




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