# Smoke Vault gas smoker makeover



## Nefarious (Jan 24, 2022)

I have had this smoker for about 4 months now and things that seem straight forward for others is just a PITA. 

I have 5 changes I'm going to make over the next month, one really easy and one very difficult.  I'll post them all here in turn so they stay in the same place.

The changes are:
1)  The smoker sits on my cement paver patio that attaches to the house at a corner.  The patio tilts away from house in two directions, probably more then it should.  The smoker has a water pan inside, a level device if you will and because of the slope, not much water can go in it.  I put some shims under it, but the smoker is so light that opening the door can sometimes rock it off of the shims.  The fix is easy enough, I bought 4 adjustable feet to attach to the legs.






I have the smoker in the garage and I cleaned it up some, don't need the pine needles getting in the way.  I just figured this was easy enough, I still need a couple of washers but I got this project done this afternoon.











2) The gas burner is responsible for burning the wood and boy did it.  If I would cook over 225* The smoke would just billow out of the stack, so I tried to smoke under 220*, works well for tri tip when it is reverse seared.  I found the Mailbox mod, or was pointed to it by 

 OldSmoke
 and have the parts on order for my modified version.  I got the last parts today and will start putting that project together tomorrow.















The smoke will flow between the mailbox, the stainless box, and the smoker through the close nipples that connect to the sides with the flanges.  I currently have two sets, I will put them together tomorrow and begin to attach them to the mailbox and the smoker.  This will probably take longer then it should, I am a computer engineer.

3) The thermometer connected to the door is worthless, most of the time it is steamed up so I have thoughts on riveting a piece of sheet stainless over the hole and not bother with it.  So, I am also going to do a PID like addition, that's the 4th modification., I am building in a PT100 Thermo sensor.  It requires an amplifier and to keep the water out of the device I am going to mount it on the back in a waterproof box.







4) will be a similar project to 

 OldSmoke
 , 

 solman
 adding a solenoid and needle valve to give greater control of how gas in controlled in the smoker.  The parts for this mod are well known, I just haven't bought them yet.  

5) Is the big project and it will have many phases.  I have done a lot of work with small microcontrollers, and going to incorporate one in my smoker.  It will control the solenoid in a similar way a PID does, but it won't implement a PID, I have other ideas how to solve that problem.  Anyway this will be mounted on the same side of the smoker as the mailbox, using similar but smaller flanges and black pipe, and be in another stainless box mounted above the mailbox but in the other orientation.  More pictures will come as I make progress.

Thanks for listening.


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## Nefarious (Jan 25, 2022)

I got most of the offsets between the smoker and the mailbox done today.  I should have done more but too many interruptions.













The teflon tape is not for leaking smoke, although it should help with that.  It is just something for the threads to glide on.  The bolts sticking out the sides allowed me to use two 2x2s as leverage to tighten them.  It is cold in the garage, 37*F and as you can see from last image, one is 1/16" closer then the other.  Tomorrow when I get a chance I am going to put them in the dryer on a rack to heat them up.  They are 2 5/8" wide and I would like to get them 2 1/2" , don't ask why because 

 bauchjw
  "I'm making this up as I go"  Indiana Jones


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## bauchjw (Jan 25, 2022)

Haha, wish I could comment on your makeover project, but it’s out of my wheel house, but props for the quote!


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## Nefarious (Jan 25, 2022)

bauchjw said:


> Haha, wish I could comment on your makeover project, but it’s out of my wheel house, but props for the quote!
> View attachment 523417


Your post on using these quotes in real life has inspired me to Point them out when I use them.  The other day I quoted yoda in a post "do or do not, there is no try". I probably pissed off the person who sad they should try something.  I won't reference you on them usually, just wanted you to know you had an impact.


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## TNJAKE (Jan 25, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Your post on using these quotes in real life has inspired me to Point them out when I use them.  The other day I quoted yoda in a post "do or do not, there is no try". I probably pissed off the person who sad they should try something.  I won't reference you on them usually, just wanted you to know you had an impact.


Better to be pissed off than pissed on......


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## bauchjw (Jan 25, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Your post on using these quotes in real life has inspired me to Point them out when I use them.  The other day I quoted yoda in a post "do or do not, there is no try". I probably pissed off the person who sad they should try something.  I won't reference you on them usually, just wanted you to know you had an impact.


Haha, I remember that post. I appreciate it!


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## OldSmoke (Jan 25, 2022)

I am very interested in your microcontroller project!


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## SmokinAl (Jan 26, 2022)

Your mods are way over my head, but I sure can’t wait to see the finished setup!
Al


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

SmokinAl said:


> Your mods are way over my head, but I sure can’t wait to see the finished setup!
> Al


thanks Al,  me too. One of the problems I have, ask the wife, is finishing these kinds of projects.  Once I get it to the point where it works well enough, it sits there for a while until I need to take it further.  All if the hardware pieces will be done, sooner then later I hope.


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## SmokinVOLfan (Jan 26, 2022)

Looks like some great mod's! Man your SV looks brand new! I have had mine over 5 years now and put it through hell and it still keeps on ticking. Puts out some great Q. Look forward to seeing it when its done!


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## DougE (Jan 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> One of the problems I have, ask the wife, is finishing these kinds of projects. Once I get it to the point where it works well enough, it sits there for a while until I need to take it further. All if the hardware pieces will be done, sooner then later I hope.


You done messed up posting it here, then. You'll keep getting prodded till it's completed. lol


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

SmokinVOLfan said:


> Looks like some great mod's! Man your SV looks brand new! I have had mine over 5 years now and put it through hell and it still keeps on ticking. Puts out some great Q. Look forward to seeing it when its done!


I bought it just before I joined this site in October.  So, very new.


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

DougE said:


> You done messed up posting it here, then. You'll keep getting prodded till it's completed. lol


I'm hoping for the inspiration.  Thanks for keeping me on the up and up.


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## SmokinVOLfan (Jan 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> I bought it just before I joined this site in October.  So, very new.



Is yours the 18 or 24 model?


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

SmokinVOLfan said:


> Is yours the 18 or 24 model?


18, it is only two people here and the 18 cooks too much food for us to eat.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Once I get it to the point where it works well enough, it sits there for a while until I need to take it further.



Oh yes, it is a curse.


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## SmokinVOLfan (Jan 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> 18, it is only two people here and the 18 cooks too much food for us to eat.



I know you mentioned some heavy smoke once you got it started. How much wood were you adding to the pan and were you using chunks or chips?


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

I had 3 phases. 

When I first started I just piled chips into the tray.  Only center burned lots of smoke and I spent the rest of the smoke time moving the uncooked chips to the center.

Got some advice here and only put a thin layer of chips on the plate, good smoke, just didnt last long.  Spent time moving to center and.adding new chips.

Last I would put a pile in the center.  More.smoke, but burned so still had to open the door to replenish, this lasted longer unless the temp was high.

Never went to chunks. Just decided the mailbox was the easy solution and I like making things.


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## Fueling Around (Jan 26, 2022)

This is going to be fun.
Got a lot of arm chair ... enthusiasts watching.



Nefarious said:


> ...
> This will probably take longer then it should, I am a computer engineer.
> ...


Retired engineer here.


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## SmokinVOLfan (Jan 26, 2022)

The SV does a lot better burning chunks. If you smoke something again before you get your mailbox built try putting a couple chunks on the pan. Burns longer and cleaner. 

I don't think I have seen anyone do a mailbox mod on a propane smoker so looking forward to seeing the results!


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

Today's progress, I got the smoke tubes connected to the stainless box.  Someone should have warned me how difficult it is to drill into stainless steel.  Maybe not, then I may not have decided to do it.  















The holes on the inside between the four nuts is where I will cut the hole for the smoke to flow tomorrow.  I have to figure out how, I think I will use my skill saw and a bunch of blades, how ever many it takes.  I had no idea how hard it was to drill the stainless, Had to buy a new set and probably ruined all of them.  

I have to be efficient as tomorrow is a big game for the USMNT for qualifying for the world cup late this year.


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## JckDanls 07 (Jan 26, 2022)

A hint with drilling stainless...  REALLY slow speed and plenty of cutting oil... heat (caused from drill speed to fast) will kill a drill bit in a hurry. ..


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

JckDanls 07 said:


> A hint with drilling stainless...  REALLY slow speed and plenty of cutting oil... heat (caused from drill speed to fast) will kill a drill bit in a hurry. ..


I thought I went slow, i did read an article that said slow and use water, but i probably didn't go slow enough and probably didn't didn't use enough water.  But that's done now, unless I need the third tube.

Once I got the hole all the way through it was.easier, I just went up a size or two each attempt.


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## Fueling Around (Jan 26, 2022)

Stainless is a unique metal.  The exteriors are hard and the core is relatively soft.
Lower drill speed (not slow) and push firmly on the drill motor. 
Cutting oil helps, but is not a replacement for pushing.
Don't let the SS heat by spinning the drill (without pushing firmly) or you work harden the surface even more.
Luckily SS doesn't conduct heat easily so once you get a hole, a step drill or using larger drills (bits) works pretty well.

Get a hole saw. Slow speed drill motor and push (repeat push!) to break the skins on both sides.
Thin material so don't be tempted with a carbide blade in the saber saw meant for tile


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## Nefarious (Jan 26, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> Stainless is a unique metal.  The exteriors are hard and the core is relatively soft.
> Lower drill speed (not slow) and push firmly on the drill motor.
> Cutting oil helps, but is not a replacement for pushing.
> Don't let the SS heat by spinning the drill (without pushing firmly) or you work harden the surface even more.
> ...


Any special hole saw?  Press evenly or slightly rock.  The diameter is 21/4 inches.


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## GonnaSmoke (Jan 27, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Any special hole saw?  Press evenly or slightly rock.  The diameter is 21/4 inches.


If you can't borrow one, search for uxcell or EZARC for a 57mm saw, about $20-$30. There are some less expensive hole saws, but many don't come with the arbor which you've got to have. If this is something you'll use more than once or twice, maybe look into hole saw kits that will give you several sizes. Use a drill press if you can and I always center punch for my starting hole. If I'm not using a drill press, I like to center punch then drill a small pilot hole first, maybe 1/8", and then use the hole saw. Try not to rock the saw as the hole may end up bigger than what you're wanting, if that is even a problem for you. When I'm doing stuff like this, I'm never dealing with precision and others with more experience can give better information...


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## Nefarious (Jan 27, 2022)

GonnaSmoke said:


> If you can't borrow one, search for uxcell or EZARC for a 57mm saw, about $20-$30. There are some less expensive hole saws, but many don't come with the arbor which you've got to have. If this is something you'll use more than once or twice, maybe look into hole saw kits that will give you several sizes. Use a drill press if you can and I always center punch for my starting hole. If I'm not using a drill press, I like to center punch then drill a small pilot hole first, maybe 1/8", and then use the hole saw. Try not to rock the saw as the hole may end up bigger than what you're wanting, if that is even a problem for you. When I'm doing stuff like this, I'm never dealing with precision and others with more experience can give better information...


Thank you for this.  I was all prepared to go out and cut it out with my trusty skill saw.  There is no precision needed here, close is sufficient, the hole just cannot be too small.  Projects I do are all "Cut to size, beat to fit" i do not generally have the right tool for the right job.   I do not have a drill press.

I ordered the ezarc  saw from amazon to be delivered tomorrow.  One of the center holes is maybe already too large and I will have to make a piece and bolt it on where the flange bolts on so I can make a new smaller pilot hole.  I drilled the center of one of the holes bigger so the skill.saw blade would fit.

There are other things I can do today, like figure out how to debur the flange bolt holes.  Or maybe I just do some software today.


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## Nefarious (Jan 27, 2022)

GonnaSmoke
 The size I need is 2 3/8 and costs $48.  The problem is, it won't be delivered until Feb 12 to 14.  He only thing I can get sooner is a lennox bi metal, which probably wont cut the stainless.  Any other suggestions?


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## GonnaSmoke (Jan 27, 2022)

The Lenox new will work, just be sure that it comes with the arbor or buy the arbor separately and go slow...


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## Nefarious (Jan 27, 2022)

GonnaSmoke said:


> The Lenox new will work, just be sure that it comes with the arbor or buy the arbor separately and go slow...


I just decided I needed some practice, I will deal with this tomorrow.  I do appreciate your advise.


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## Nefarious (Jan 27, 2022)

I decided not to tackle the holes for the smoke flow out of the mailbox, I wasn't as comfortable as I think I need to be, so I did an easier project.  I did some work on the thermometer housing.  Got it all drilled and installed.  It isn't done as I need to deburr the holes and put some high temp RTV between the back of the smoker and the box.














The camera isn't level but the box is very close.  When I have an extra hand or two, It can be level because the holes are big enough.  Like I said before "Cut to size, beat to fit"


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## boykjo (Jan 27, 2022)

For future reference always use a center drill to punch through the stainless first before you drill.



			https://www.grainger.com/product/KEO-High-Speed-Steel-Plain-Center-33UL59
		


Use this for cutting fluid....... Stinks and messy but works the best

CastrolVariocut C Moly Dee 16 oz Bottle Cutting & Tapping Fluid
Straight Oil, For Use on Stainless Steel

hope this helps

Good luck

Boykjo


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## mosparky (Jan 27, 2022)

Most hole saws aren't really intended for cutting metal. I have done it but not real often. As said go slow (low rpms). I got best results pulsing the drill in 1-2 second burst once the saw is in contact with metal.
If you end up putting a patch of metal in to re-establish a smaller center hole, Be sure to put it on the backside so you don't cut your patch away before you even get to the stainless you are trying to cut.
I know it sounds like a "well Duh..." statement but I've worked with a lot of guy's that just didn't think things thru first. No insult intended.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 27, 2022)

Oh yes, stainless steel is fun! This is my fun today;


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## Fueling Around (Jan 27, 2022)

I screwed up suggesting a hole saw and not asking the hole size or available resources.
My preference would be to plasma cut a 2-1/4" hole, but that is probably a "not happening here" in your garage.
Now my thought is back to saber saw with fine tooth bimetal.  Yeah, probably burn through a few, but the key again is to push


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## Nefarious (Jan 28, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> Oh yes, stainless steel is fun! This is my fun today;
> 
> View attachment 523602
> 
> View attachment 523601


Thats serious stainless work.


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## Nefarious (Jan 28, 2022)

Yesterday I used a hole saw to cut thru the thin walls of the smoker to add the temperature probe.  The hole was only 7/8" in diameter.  I have severe wrist/thumb arthritis and as slow and level as I could keep the drill, a hand drill, It still bound and twisted my wrist.  I really appreciate all of you that suggested the hole saw to cut the holes for the smoke vent, I decided it in my best interest to use the jig saw.  The holes are not perfect, sometimes the saw got away from me, sometimes I had to push too hard to make progress and then the saw got away from me. 

Still, the holes are done and look ok, certainly not perfect but sufficient to say mostly done.







So tomorrow I can work on the holes into the smoker cabinet and two aspects of the project will be mostly done.  I still have to deburr the drilled holes and I will put a thin layer of hi temp RTV, wish it came in black.  Most of the parts are in for the needle valve and the solenoid, the rest I get locally.  So that can also be done this weekend.


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## Nefarious (Jan 29, 2022)

What it looks like attached   I'm using a set of fasteners I can't find, have to wait for them to be ordered.


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## Nefarious (Jan 30, 2022)

If there ever will be a time i wished I would have purchased the larger smoke vault it is now.  The extra 3" of space would make all of the difference.  To get the gas plumbing to fit, I am going to have to put 45° angles in the line to cut the corner.  Argh.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 30, 2022)

I can’t quite picture this.


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## Nefarious (Jan 30, 2022)

Well, i'm taking a break, the US is playing Canada in a world cup qualifier.  

The problem is the flare fitting coming off the burner takes up about 2 inches and it isn't a general flare, it is welded on the the burner framing.  There just isn't enough room.

From geometry I know the diagonal from middle of front to middle of the side is longer.  If I did this the valve would have to be on the side.

I'm working on a different plan to wrap around the corner with a 90 degree fitting on both the solenoid side and the bypass side.  Then the needle valve will be on the front.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 30, 2022)

Is this what you are referring to?


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## Nefarious (Jan 30, 2022)

This is what it looks like on this end.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 30, 2022)

Get a new piece of propane hose with the fitting like you have now. About $8 from Amazon. Cut it to length and use that to connect to your solenoid valve using a barbed fitting. Would this work?


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## Nefarious (Jan 30, 2022)

Thats what i'm doing.  But it has to go into a tee, there has to be a route that does not go through the solenoid that has the needle valve.  It is used for the minimal flow of gas to keep the light on and if I want to cook without the solenoid.  

The flare and hose with a barb fitting take up an additional 2'. Add that to the black piece thats connected to the burner.  Currently the flare -> barb-> tee -> solenoid on one side, valve on the other fit.  There is about 2 inches left.  I will add 90° fittings on these so they turn the corner and then connect them each to another tee and then add another flare for the service.  The two ends use a barb and tubing to connect.to the tee.

Kinda like:  the paths run on top of each other with about 3.5" seperation.  I'll take a pic of it later and explain it if it would be easier to understand.

Lower 90° -> tee -> flare

Upper 90° -> barb -> tube connects flare in middle of above tee.


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## Nefarious (Jan 30, 2022)

US lost to Canada in the world cup qualifier.  We have some problems to solve.


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## Nefarious (Jan 31, 2022)

OldSmoke
 what size adapter did you use to connect the brass to the tubing?  I have 1/4 and 3/8 Id, 1/4 seems too small and 3/8 seems to big?


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## OldSmoke (Jan 31, 2022)

You mean the brass pipe to the fitting with the flare?


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## Nefarious (Jan 31, 2022)

At the bottom of the loop you have two fittings that have the black hose that connect them to close the bottom run, it shows below the bottom of your smoker.  The hose is held in place by barbs on each side then clamped with a hose clamp.  what size are the barbs you used?


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## OldSmoke (Jan 31, 2022)

1/4” perhaps? I took the hose to the hdw store and grabbed what fit. At that point, I was in a bit of a hurry.


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## Nefarious (Jan 31, 2022)

you didn't use the same hose that you used to connect the solenoid to the smoker?  I just cut a piece of the hose that I bought to connect to the flare you mentioned earlier.  I can't get either of them to fit.


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## OldSmoke (Jan 31, 2022)

Yes, same hose.

It is 1/4”, I have a spare that I checked.


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## Nefarious (Jan 31, 2022)

1/4 slides in and doesn't even touch the sides.  The 3/8 I can't get in the opening.  I am thinking I bought the wrong hose from amazon.  It doesn't tell the inside diameter.

Pressure regulator


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## OldSmoke (Jan 31, 2022)

I bought the same one. It is a little loose, just add a little oomph to the clamp. It sealed and I leak checked it.


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## Nefarious (Jan 31, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> I bought the same one. It is a little loose, just add a little oomph to the clamp. It sealed and I leak checked it.


I'll try that, thanks.

I think I need better clamps.  I could get it tight enough that it would just hardly turn, it wouldn't pull out  so under pressure might still work.  The hose clamp was so narrow that it would rock in place and might eventually wear through to a leak.  I'm thinking of using two clamps so the binding is over more the one barb.  I'm hoping the new clamp will provide a bigger tightening screw.


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## Nefarious (Feb 2, 2022)

So, I was not comfortable with the 1/4th barb fitting.  And as mentioned above the 3/8th was too big.  That's because the hose is 5/16th.  I was so focused on what I could buy on homedepot, they didn't carry a 5/16th barb that I forgot to think.  Last night I searched amazon and found what I needed, 1/4th MIP x 5/16th barb.  And just for the heck of it I went to a homedepot competitor and found them.  Drove an hour this morning and the solenoid is now complete.   Not pretty and I haven't leak checked it yet, later this afternoon when my hands warm up and before the US play Honduras in a world cup qualifier in sub zero conditions in Minnesota.  











I haven't figured out how to mount it solidly yet, not much room and I have to make a cut in the front panel for the valve to be lowered a small amount.

I am leaving town on Sunday to go skiing in Montana, The bolts that hold the mailbox onto the smoker will be in when I return, so I can't do a smoke test until I return.  I hope to do the leak test this afternoon and figure out how to hold the brass contraption in place today.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 2, 2022)

If you have the option, those valves prefer to be mounted vertically with the solenoid up.

Making great progress!


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## Nefarious (Feb 2, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> If you have the option, those valves prefer to be mounted vertically with the solenoid up.
> 
> Making great progress!


How much do they prefer?  I have to build it all over if it doesn't work.  I'll noodle as a new orientation.  I have an idea the issue is the valve for the gas is way below the sheet metal front, way means 2" to 3".


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## Nefarious (Feb 2, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> If you have the option, those valves prefer to be mounted vertically with the solenoid up.
> 
> Making great progress!


I think I have it figured out, all I have to do is measure the length to see if it fits across the front.  Another option is to run two hoses across the front and just put the valve on the front.  then the solenoid can go on the side.  Now that I have the hose and fittings figured out I can consider that.


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## Nefarious (Feb 4, 2022)

I really don't understand how having the solenoid only in the vertical with the nut on top would make any difference.  The solenoid is held closed by a very strong spring.  They don't tell you the current needed to open the valve, it just seems that the manufacturer would make the spring strong enough that gravity would have zero effect on the operation of the solenoid.  Or, why else would it have to be nut side up?

Anyway, I spend time to work out another solution that I like better and does have the solenoid in the preferred orientation.  














I even get to take some parts back to the store.  Less parts are always better.

I did some work to figure out what thread tape to use.  First, white thread tape will deteriorate with propane gas and will leak in a coupe of years.  So, it's either yellow or something else.

Yellow tape was thicker and when threaded the wrap around the tip of the male piece would get cut off and end up in the pipe.  I kept having to fish it out so I sought some advice, and found that using a high quality thread dope was a better solution.  I used RectorSeal and it all went together very easily.  We will see how it stands up to time.


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## Nefarious (Feb 4, 2022)

I'm going to do the leak test first out of the unit.  This will test much of the joints up to the solenoid on one side and the valve on the other.  Then I will put it in place and test the rest.  I just thought it would be easier to check with it out of the unit.  I should have bought a cap for the other end and then I could test the entire unit out of the smoker.  Maybe I just do that with the money saved by the parts I get to return.


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## Fueling Around (Feb 4, 2022)

Nice looking manifold.



Nefarious said:


> I really don't understand how having the solenoid only in the vertical with the nut on top would make any difference.  The solenoid is held closed by a very strong spring.  They don't tell you the current needed to open the valve, it just seems that the manufacturer would make the spring strong enough that gravity would have zero effect on the operation of the solenoid.  Or, why else would it have to be nut side up?
> ...
> Yellow tape was thicker and when threaded the wrap around the tip of the male piece would get cut off and end up in the pipe.  I kept having to fish it out so I sought some advice, and found that using a high quality thread dope was a better solution.  I used RectorSeal and it all went together very easily.  We will see how it stands up to time.


The optimal mounting is with the coil vertical and on top. Next is with the coil horizontal.  This is for potential debris in the system so it doesn't get in the moving parts of the valve.

RectorSeal #5 is my preference and probably the industry standard.
When using liquid pipe dope or tape ALWAYS keep it back at least 2 thread turns from the end of the male fitting.  You do not want that residue in your system.


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## Nefarious (Feb 4, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> Nice looking manifold.
> 
> RectorSeal #5 is my preference and probably the industry standard.
> When using liquid pipe dope or tape ALWAYS keep it back at least 2 thread turns from the end of the male fitting.  You do not want that residue in your system.



I used RectorSeal #5

The problem is I have very skinny fingers and there is no way I could control that.  I put on the dope as best I could and used a clean rag to make sure the end was clean and that none was inside to fitting.  The clean end insured no dope past the first thread, and only below the thread peek for the first groove.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 4, 2022)

Fueling Around said:


> The optimal mounting is with the coil vertical and on top. Next is with the coil horizontal.



My bench testing also confirmed this. At any position other than vertical, the operation was erratic.

I looks like you are getting close to a first fire!


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## Nefarious (Feb 4, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> My bench testing also confirmed this. At any position other than vertical, the operation was erratic.
> 
> I looks like you are getting close to a first fire!


That will have to wait until I get back from Whitefish.  I also have the bolts to mount the mailbox.  When I get back I should be ready to finish it up.

I need to paint the connectors for the mailbox but it is too cold, I might just wait until it gets warmer. I'll see if I need to add the rtv now, maybe I'll just go with a thin gasket material.  I'll know that when I do the smoke test and see how much makes it through and how much leaks.


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## Nefarious (Feb 5, 2022)

Spent some of the morning trying to figure out the RTV solution for bonding the smoke tube between the smoker and the mailbox.  It seems that LavaLock is the answer and they have 2 different products.

Black 450 LavaLock with 2K reviews 4.6 of 5

Red 600 LavaLock with 140 reviews 4.7 of 5

If you ask me today I say I will never smoke over 400 degrees and the Black 450 is the product that I should use, it is black.   I have only been smoking for a few months and haven't experienced much.  Is 450 enough or should I go to 600, which is red. 

Does anyone ever smoke over 450 degrees?


----------



## OldSmoke (Feb 5, 2022)

What kind of connection are you using?


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## Nefarious (Feb 5, 2022)

5/16" stainless bolts, tapered to fit in the flange.  Then a stainless washer and nut on the inside of the mailbox and the smoker.  The first image is what the bolt, washer and nut look like themselves.  The second is what it looks like from inside the mailbox.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 5, 2022)

So, you are passing the smoke through the pipes? If so, the black should be just fine. If you are over 450 degrees in this smoker, you have bigger problems!


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 5, 2022)

Actually, i don't even know if it will get to 450°.  Probably not.  I just read some posts where people smoke low and slow and then turn it up to over 500, i suspect it's a different kind of smoker.  I was just making sure since I have been at this for such a short time.


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## Nefarious (Feb 15, 2022)

Got back to work on this this afternoon.  Leak tested the manifold and jerry rigged the manifold to the smoker.  Ran tests for hot and cold and attempted to see how low I could comfortably go with the new needle valve.















The manifold is held in place at the hose end by an eye bolt I had laying around.  I had to bend it open a little, probably should be bigger and it is zinc and should be stainless.  Before I am done I think I will replace it with a stainless u bolt.  

The temperature swing, without the needle valve is 150*F at the lowest built in valve setting and 450*F at the hi setting.  The lowest I can comfortably take the needle valve is 145*F.

Tomorrow I will deburr the inside of the smoker and put in the mailbox.  No paint and no gasket, just bolted together.  I need to see if I can get enough smoke or if I need to add the third connector.  I really hope how it is now is sufficient.  

*Question:* I don't want to paint the connectors now, it is too cold and the paint won't adhere well.  Should I coat them in oil and just keep them oiled until I paint them, is there a better option, or should I just paint them now and repaint them in the spring?


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## Nefarious (Feb 16, 2022)

Ran a smoke test this morning and it turned out as expected, not enough smoke.  There are several things I need to change. 

First there are two intake vents at the bottom of each side that need closed so I have to find some 3x3 to 4x4 piece of stainless sheet metal to close them off.

Second, as 

 Ringer
 said when I started this there needs to be a few holes drilled in the bottom to draw air from to carry it into the smoker.

The smoker with the mailbox attached.










Some smoke entering the smoker.









The needle valve is somewhat better then the valve that comes on the unit, but not tremendous.  That's where the solenoid comes into play.


----------



## Ringer (Feb 16, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Ran a smoke test this morning and it turned out as expected, not enough smoke.  There are several things I need to change.
> 
> First there are two intake vents at the bottom of each side that need closed so I have to find some 3x3 to 4x4 piece of stainless sheet metal to close them off.
> 
> ...


Awesome, it looks like you are getting draw. I have noticed that the warmer the smoker body gets, the better the draw is on mine. Good work!


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 16, 2022)

Ringer said:


> Awesome, it looks like you are getting draw. I have noticed that the warmer the smoker body gets, the better the draw is on mine. Good work!


I only have 2 little 3/8 holes in the sides near the bottom.  I think when I drill the holes like you suggested it will be better.  Maybe you can see in the smoke pic's there are two input air vents that I need to close.  

I am really hoping I don't have to put in the third tube between the mailbox and the smoker.  That will be a major piece of work.


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## Nefarious (Feb 16, 2022)

Found what to use to cover the intake vents:
Vent Cover
I was hoping to not have to take the mailbox off.  If I have to it will make drilling the holes in the bottom of the mailbox easier.


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## SmokinVOLfan (Feb 16, 2022)

Looking good!


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## Ringer (Feb 16, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> I only have 2 little 3/8 holes in the sides near the bottom.  I think when I drill the holes like you suggested it will be better.  Maybe you can see in the smoke pic's there are two input air vents that I need to close.
> 
> I am really hoping I don't have to put in the third tube between the mailbox and the smoker.  That will be a major piece of work.



I do have 6 in mine but I'm running an mes 30 and a smaller box mod so they won't be the same. The good thing is if you drill too many holes you can always cover over them with metal tape or whatever. The 2 tubes you have should be good. Maybe just open up more holes on the bottom of the box mod 1 at a time with the smoker going and see. If you start to get back draft then you drilled 1 too many unless the exhaust is catching wind. Looks to be well under your control.


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 17, 2022)

Ringer
  i've decided how to do my vent.  The logic is, my mailbox is longer and narrower then your.  Your total vent area is 6 * 3/8" = 18/8".

I don't know how much I need, smoker is smaller so maybe less, maybe more.  I will space 8 1/4" holes evenly down the middle, it puts them about 2" apart.  That gives me 16/8, slightly less then yours.  If I need more I will just drill out some to 3/8".  Pictures will follow.


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## Ringer (Feb 17, 2022)

Logical and sounds like it should work well. Good thinking!


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## Nefarious (Feb 17, 2022)

These will be the hardest 8 holes I have ever drilled.  I have a 1/8 stainless drill bit, maybe I should get a smaller one for the pilot hole.  It's what I used for the other holes, maybe the walls are thicker.  Slow and pressure.


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## Nefarious (Feb 17, 2022)

I got the vent plates on and have decided to change all of the exposed fasteners on the sides of the smoker to match that used by the vent plates.  Eventually there will be 4 and maybe 6 more fasteners added to attach the thermal mass plates that are going inside the smoker.  I think I will also change out the handles.  The smoker will be somewhat heaver and the handles are already difficult to use.
















The plates will be painted black and sealed with rtv in the spring.  If they rust between now and then, i'm out 7 bucks.  

I did get the bottom holes pilot drilled 1/8" diameter.  Tomorrow I will finish up with the smoke generation and move to the thermal mass and the handles.  Could finish this part up by end of weekend.  Then I can use it again.


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

So, I drilled the 8 holes first at 1/4" and the result was the same.  Very little draft and couldn't see any smoke from the top.  I drilled them all again at 5/16" and tried again.  Same result.  Third attempt was all 8 holes at 3/8".  If it is too much as 

 Ringer
 says, I can just cover them.

Problem is, the result seems the same, so maybe it is something else.  Here is what it looks like:









after I closed the door to the mailbox better less smoke comes out the sides of the smoke box, but it is going somewhere.  The pic of top shows no visible smoke coming from the smoker.

So, I had a piece of steak frozen from two nights ago.  I was going to grill, prepped the steak and we lost power.  With only a headlight flashlight I was not comfortable grilling outside so I hit the CI.  All fit but 1 so I froze it.  As I was thinking about my mailbox mod, wondering where the smoke is, I remembered the steak and 

 SmokinAl
 when he grilled the ribs frozen.  I threw it on at 250* and let it cook for 1hr 20min and it looked like this:









So, some smoke is getting in the smoker.

Questions:  
Is the smoke coming from the bottom of the mailbox caused by back pressure or is there still just not enough draw?  

Do I drill the holes bigger or do I add a small stack at the top of the smoker to get more draw.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Another test I am doing is seeing if the pellets all burn.  If so, then this is a small problem, if it goes out I have to figure out some other issue.  I am going to try a mix of 50/50 wood chips in the tube to see if that makes a difference.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> So, I drilled the 8 holes first at 1/4" and the result was the same.  Very little draft and couldn't see any smoke from the top.  I drilled them all again at 5/16" and tried again.  Same result.  Third attempt was all 8 holes at 3/8".  If it is too much as
> 
> Ringer
> says, I can just cover them.
> ...



I did add a stack to mine so that could be one possible difference.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> I did add a stack to mine so that could be one possible difference.


Does yours come out of the top or the side.  I haven't seen a top stack extension.

I looked at your thread and know the answer.  Now I have to sort out if I want to close the vent on top and put the stack on the side or if I want to take a OK Joe stack and modify it to fit in mine.

Another piece of evidence that points to the stack.  When I open the door much more smoke goes into the smoker and the flow out the bottom seems to stop.  Tomorrow I am going to put a fan on the top to pull out of the smoker.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Does yours come out of the top or the side.  I haven't seen a top stack extension.
> 
> I looked at your thread and know the answer.  Now I have to sort out if I want to close the vent on top and put the stack on the side or if I want to take a OK Joe stack and modify it to fit in mine.



Mine is a side stack but here is a top stack

UDS Ugly Drum Lid Exhaust 2" Teardrop Flanged Vent Damper Builder Part 
Hunsaker Smokers LLC 2 Inch ID Bolt On Tear Drop Exhaust


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> Mine is a side stack but here is a top stack
> 
> UDS Ugly Drum Lid Exhaust 2" Teardrop Flanged Vent Damper Builder Part
> Hunsaker Smokers LLC 2 Inch ID Bolt On Tear Drop Exhaust


Thanks for the stacked pieces, don't k ow why they didn't come up with my search.

My top vent is in the center and is 3.5" in diameter.  It might be better to plug the existing hole like I did the others and put a vent in the back corner opposite the mail box.  Might help circulate the smoke.  I do plan to add a fan like 

 OldSmoke
 has on his to even the smoke out so I need to look up that mod and see how it affects the mounting of things.  Maybe putting the stack on the side makes sense depending on its length, longer would be better.


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## JckDanls 07 (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> thermal mass plates that are going inside the smoker



Are these plates laying down flat ??   What size are they ?? anything else that would be blocking air passage (ie. waterpan, drip pan) ... 

I would experiment with something to make a temporary exhaust stack before buying one or relocating the actual exhaust vent ...


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Thanks for the stacked pieces, don't k ow why they didn't come up with my search.
> 
> My top vent is in the center and is 3.5" in diameter.  It might be better to plug the existing hole like I did the others and put a vent in the back corner opposite the mail box.  Might help circulate the smoke.  I do plan to add a fan like
> 
> ...



I do have a fan from a convection oven in mine but I still had good draft with just the stack. 

My stack is located on the opposite side of my smoke box just like you are describing. The fan may be enough to get things moving on its own


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

JckDanls 07 said:


> Are these plates laying down flat ??   What size are they ?? anything else that would be blocking air passage (ie. waterpan, drip pan) ...
> 
> I would experiment with something to make a temporary exhaust stack before buying one or relocating the actual exhaust vent ...


They are not in yet.  They are across the sides up against the two side walls.

I have some 1.5" diameter pipe flanges. I was going to make a stack with tomorrow.  They are smaller in diameter then whats for sale.  Another idea is to just make one out of aluminum foil and see if that makes a difference, the stack doesn't even have to be round  to see if it makes a difference.  I thought of a couple of hangers wrapped with foil.  At this point i'm just throwing out ideas to see if I can sort out what the real issue is.

Thanks for your ideas.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

I think 

 tallbm
  did a fan expiriment as well but his was attached to a cardboard stack. Could be a cheap way to test?


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> I think
> 
> tallbm
> did a fan experiment as well but his was attached to a cardboard stack. Could be a cheap way to test?


I'm thinking of building a stack with heavy duty aluminum foil wrapped around a couple of hangers.  Then I can make it as tall as I need.  Maybe I put a fan on it to see how that works.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> I'm thinking of building a stack with heavy duty aluminum foil wrapped around a couple of hangers.  Then I can make it as tall as I need.  Maybe I put a fan on it to see how that works.


One thing I hadn't considered is ventilation around the burner area, could your draft be coming in from there rather than the box?


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## DougE (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> One thing I hadn't considered is that your smoker is open on the bottom where the gas burner is. It may be drawing from there rather than the box.


Yea, it will draw from the path of least resistence, so if his box has a hole under the burner for it to draw air, and serve as a bottom vent, That's where the air is going to enter.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> One thing I hadn't considered is ventilation around the burner area, could your draft be coming in from there rather than the box?


Thats a good point.  I thought of that when I first.started drilling the holes in the mailbox.  The draw seemed to be improving so I let go of the idea.  I will check that in the morning, there is a plate that covers most of the open area, i thought it was in.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Thats a good point.  I thought of that when I first.started drilling the holes in the mailbox.  The draw seemed to be improving so I let go of the idea.  I will check that in the morning, there is a plate that covers most of the open area, i thought it was in.


I used to check for air leaks with a match by just watching the flame. You could also try introducing smoke under or near that burner area and watch the top vent to see if it comes out. That may be your answer.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

DougE said:


> Yea, it will draw from the path of least resistence, so if his box has a hole under the burner for it to draw air, and serve as a bottom vent, That's where the air is going to enter.


Thats correct, and I haven't changed anything about how the bottom fits together.  It worked correctly, plenty of draw, before I added the mailbox, it.would be odd for that to be the problem.  There were also two vents near the bottom that I closed so it is now tighter then before, at least thats what.I think now.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> I used to check for air leaks with a match by just watching the flame. You could also try introducing smoke under or near that burner area and watch the top vent to see if it comes out. That may be your answer.


Right above the burner is a heat deflection plate.  It is where the chips would sit and burn in the original design.  I'll put the smoke tube there and see what that does.


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## Ringer (Feb 18, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Right above the burner is a heat deflection plate.  It is where the chips would sit and burn in the original design.  I'll put the smoke tube there and see what that does.


You are close to getting it resolved.


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## Nefarious (Feb 18, 2022)

Ringer said:


> You are close to getting it resolved.


Just a thought, but heat rises and it is this rising heat thermal that caries the smoke up in the smoker.  Some smoke is rising, the steak did have a smoke ring, and it was cherry so not that big.  So, you are right, it should be a simple change, all I have to do is find it.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

DougE said:


> Yea, it will draw from the path of least resistence, so if his box has a hole under the burner for it to draw air, and serve as a bottom vent, That's where the air is going to enter.


Thats correct, and that is the source of oxygen for the gas flame.  So then, why did I think this would work at all?

There are two intake vents, one on each side at the wood chip level of the smoker. I reasoned these vents were there to supply fresh oxygen to allow the wood to burn.  When I closed the vents the temperature in the smoker, without wood on the chip tray, lowered by somewhere around 8 degrees.  i was only able to close them partially.  It wasn't clear how much flow I would get from the vents, but it is some.  i have closed off these vents, attempting to replace them with the mailbox.

i didn't know if I could change the thermodynamics of the box sufficiently to get enough pull to move the smoke from the mailbox to the smoker.  As a last attempt, in the original plan I would add a convection oven fan to either push or pull the smoke into the smoker.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

I have some 4" drain PVC laying around and I put an 18" piece over the exhaust port.  I can see the heat rising from the top but very little smoke.  None seems to be coming from the mailbox either, so maybe this is just what's being generated?


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

Well, I have a 34" stack, very unrealistic, just seeing it it changes the situation.  One issue is there is just not much smoke.  But it still comes out the bottom of the mailbox, clearly not enough draw to pull it all out.

My next step is to drill the holes in the bottom a size bigger, but I don't think that's the problem except the fire in the tube goes away down like not enough oxygen.  We will see.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

Need to think about this.  Added wood chips to end of smoke tube to generate more smoke.  

More smoke is pushed out the bottom holes in the mailbox.  I think this means that this is the heat thermal route as well as the top stack.  

If I open the door and no wind is blowing, the smoke flows out of the mailbox and none through the bottom mailbox vents.

I'm going to open one of the closed vents on the bottom and use a match or the smoke tube to see the direction of the air flow.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

I did the test I should have started this project doing, testing the assumption that there was some draw from the side vents.  No draw, the smoke would rather circulate under the smoker drawn by the gas fire.  So, I go back to the original idea and use a fan to push/pull the smoke from the mailbox.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

Ringer
 do you have a link to the fan you used or is it something you already had?


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## Ringer (Feb 20, 2022)

Here you go sir:









						Frigidaire Range Convection Over Fan Blade & Motor Assembly 316136300 318398302  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Frigidaire Range Convection Over Fan Blade & Motor Assembly 316136300 318398302 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




I mounted the motor side in a box attached to the smoker wall


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

Ringer said:


> I mounted the motor side in a box attached to the smoker wall



Thanks I appreciate it.  I did the same for the thermometer on the back.  

I'm also groping around with different ideas on how best to solve this problem and I thought of connecting an aquarium air pump to the outside of the mailbox and pressuring the the smoke from the mailbox to the smoker.  I need to figure out a way to prototype without spending too much.  I have already spent too much, there are many smoke generators I could just buy. 

Something like this:


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## mosparky (Feb 20, 2022)

I think the root problem is your exhaust vent is too small. Think about it, you are not only adding gas to the chamber, but igniting it. The resulting heat explands the air/fuel combo and has to go somewhere. Currently it's causing a back flow on the mailbox, thus the smoke coming out of the air intake holes on the mailbox.
Currently I only see 2 viable cures.
1. A smoke tube INSIDE the smoker may work out as they are meant for lower oxygen environments. Unfortunately that means abandoning the mailbox after so much effort has been put forth.
2. An exhaust fan to help pull the heated air out of the exhaust vent would likely be the best way to salvage the existing plan.  Go cheap on the fan. Heat and smoke residue will make it a consumable item. I think Tallbm did an experiment with a cardboard stack with the fan mounted on a side tube, at an angle. This creates a venturi or syphon effect. It does keep the fan out of harms way but the assist may be nominal, (but possibly enough)

I wouldn't entertain the idea of a fan assisting incoming air on the mailbox. The extra air at that point will cause you to go thru pellets like mad and likely to cause them to flame up making even less useable smoke.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

mosparky said:


> I think the root problem is your exhaust vent is too small. Think about it, you are not only adding gas to the chamber, but igniting it. The resulting heat explands the air/fuel combo and has to go somewhere. Currently it's causing a back flow on the mailbox, thus the smoke coming out of the air intake holes on the mailbox.
> Currently I only see 2 viable cures.
> 1. A smoke tube INSIDE the smoker may work out as they are meant for lower oxygen environments. Unfortunately that means abandoning the mailbox after so much effort has been put forth.
> 2. An exhaust fan to help pull the heated air out of the exhaust vent would likely be the best way to salvage the existing plan.  Go cheap on the fan. Heat and smoke residue will make it a consumable item. I think Tallbm did an experiment with a cardboard stack with the fan mounted on a side tube, at an angle. This creates a venturi or syphon effect. It does keep the fan out of harms way but the assist may be nominal, (but possibly enough)
> ...



I have thoughts on why I agree with your explanation and why I am not positive about it.

When I open the door smoke flows from the mailbox out into the smoker.  When the door is closed something is causing the the smoke flow to be blocked and it could be pressure from the expansion inside the smoker.  This could then cause the smoke to be pressured out through the mailbox air intake holes.  

Knowing this, I removed the plate over the side bottom vent on the smoker.  If there is a buildup of pressure inside placing smoke source in front of this vent would indicate the direction of flow.  If pressure is building on the inside it would push the smoke away from the smoker chamber.  For the most part the air was stagnant, did not flow away from the smoker or into the chamber.  

I did talk to 

 Ringer
 about the experiment that 

 tallbm
 did and will give that some thought.  An alternative to the fan alternative is to add another exhaust vent.  

The current exhaust vent is about 3.5" in diameter but only half of the area is open.  One thing I might do tomorrow is to cut the rest of the vent hole open to give a small amount more area.  If this doesn't work I can easily plug the hole and put the vent, with a bigger hole on the back near the top.

At this point I am just trying to find some evidence that points to what the issue/solution is.  

1)  Making the stack higher causes more smoke to go into the smoker but it does not stop the flow out of the mailbox intake holes.

2)  Opening the door seems to cause smoke to flow into the smoker and stop the flow out of the mailbox bottom.  I haven't spent enough time sorting through what this really means.


----------



## DougE (Feb 20, 2022)

It may be that the exhaust is purposely restrictive in order to keep heat from dissipating so quickly that the box can't maintain temperature.


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## Nefarious (Feb 20, 2022)

DougE said:


> It may be that the exhaust is purposely restrictive in order to keep heat from dissipating so quickly that the box can't maintain temperature.


At this point anything is possible.  Given that the side vents seem to have no real purpose, i could easily see that as a possibility.  My longer range plan is to add thermal mass to the inside to help retain some of the heat.  The box is just a tin can with a heat source at the bottom, it takes very little to drag it around.

Tomorrow I am going to cut the exhaust vent some to see if what 

 mosparky
 proposed has validity.  I will have no problem plugging the top vent and putting a couple of stacks on the back.  All of the top stacks i've seen are too small.


----------



## JckDanls 07 (Feb 20, 2022)

I really wish you would have went with a 3'' duct instead of the 2 smaller ones on the mailbox...  woulda made life easier...  

The root of the problem is the big hole under the burner... It draws all it's air from that hole...  in turn not drawing from your two ducts from the mailbox... 

For another experiment...  Find something to block the hole under the burner...  heat the box up (to create a draw)...  turn burner off... block big hole...  see if it will draw from mailbox that way ...


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

There is one more piece of evidence I keep losing track of and thats that when I add a stack there is less smoke coming out of the mailbox intake.  @ 18" less then no stack and at 38" even less and almost none. 

Since a longer stack creates a greater pressure difference between the top and bottom of the stack smoke is pulled faster from the smoker.


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

Congratulations are in order to 

 mosparky
, the exhaust vent is too small.  I cut the rest of the top vent out and put the small stack on and:






No smoke from the mailbox.  Thank you for your inside, I appreciate it.

I can't use the exhaust duct on top because ai need a stack and all top stacks I have seen are only 2 inches in diameter.  I will use first one, and if insufficient two stacks mounted on the back.


----------



## Ringer (Feb 21, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Congratulations are in order to
> 
> mosparky
> , the exhaust vent is too small.  I cut the rest of the top vent out and put the small stack on and:
> ...


Glad you got it!


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

Ringer said:


> Glad you got it!


I certainly appreciate all of the advise you have given me.  I still have to tune it the holes may be too big now.


----------



## Ringer (Feb 21, 2022)

No problem man, this forum and its members have been invaluable to me, I'm just happy to be able to help from time to time. 

Now, we need to see some smoked meat pics from this thing!!


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## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

I'm doing some big, 3 bones each, end of 3 racks I did last week for a soccer match party.  We will see how they turn out.  Thanks again.


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## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

Ringer said:


> No problem man, this forum and its members have been invaluable to me, I'm just happy to be able to help from time to time.
> 
> Now, we need to see some smoked meat pics from this thing!!


And the drain pipe stack has to go, wife will never adjust to that


----------



## Ringer (Feb 21, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> And the drain pipe stack has to go, wife will never adjust to that


Sure enough! But for us guys...if it works


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## mosparky (Feb 21, 2022)

Glad my spit-ball'n helped. I've gotten so much help here just from reading other folks troubles and solutions, glad to pay it forward.
Gonna have to agree with your wife. At the very least paint that thing Black,


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 21, 2022)

mosparky said:


> Glad my spit-ball'n helped. I've gotten so much help here just from reading other folks troubles and solutions, glad to pay it forward.
> Gonna have to agree with your wife. At the very least paint that thing Black,


I guess I agree as well.  I was just able to sort out the problem without having to buy the wrong parts.  Yesterday I had a 38" stack that gave me more confidence that what you said was in the right direction.


----------



## Nefarious (Feb 23, 2022)

Ringer
 I am in the waiting room for wifes surgery and its too cold to work outside.  Do you get water in your mailbox when you burn pellets?  I do, and it is from the pellet tube.  It collects on the bottom where it touches the mailbox.  I'm trying to decide if I need the intake holes bigger.


----------



## Ringer (Feb 23, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Ringer
> I am in the waiting room for wifes surgery and its too cold to work outside.  Do you get water in your mailbox when you burn pellets?  I do, and it is from the pellet tube.  It collects on the bottom where it touches the mailbox.  I'm trying to decide if I need the intake holes bigger.


First, good luck on your wife's surgery. I do not get water in my mailbox. I do get sticky creasote tar stuff though. I microwave my pellets for 2 minutes prior to lighting them. I usually see steam every time I stir them out of the microwave though.


----------



## mosparky (Feb 23, 2022)

Above my pay grade here, but I'll throw this out for consideration. The moisture condensation may be endemic of the spent propane atmosphere and somewhat unavoidable. That's the only significant difference from your Vault and my MES.
You are in relatively uncharted territory. I think a few members have added mailboxes to gas smokers, but they seem to have gone dark. Now you maybe the one and only active member doing it.
My vote is "don't worry about it". Your mailbox is stainless, the Vault is stainless, nothing is going to rust. Other than the nuisance of the un-answered question ( I know how irritating that is ) there doesn't seem to be any reason to persue the cause. Leave it as a curiosity and enjoy the great food.
I look forward to hearing the cause and remedy if you choose to persue the answer.


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## Nefarious (Feb 23, 2022)

Ringer said:


> First, good luck on your wife's surgery. I do not get water in my mailbox. I do get sticky creasote tar stuff though. I microwave my pellets for 2 minutes prior to lighting them. I usually see steam every time I stir them out of the microwave though.


Thanks, I appreciate your perspective.  Thats 2 minutes on high?  I will play around with that, I have a couple.of days of loafing around. If that makes it better, I'm ok with it.  The problem is, it drips out of the holes in the bottom and leaves a big black stain and you know who won't be happy with that.


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## Nefarious (Feb 23, 2022)

mosparky said:


> Above my pay grade here, but I'll throw this out for consideration. The moisture condensation may be endemic of the spent propane atmosphere and somewhat unavoidable. That's the only significant difference from your Vault and my MES.
> You are in relatively uncharted territory. I think a few members have added mailboxes to gas smokers, but they seem to have gone dark. Now you maybe the one and only active member doing it.
> My vote is "don't worry about it". Your mailbox is stainless, the Vault is stainless, nothing is going to rust. Other than the nuisance of the un-answered question ( I know how irritating that is ) there doesn't seem to be any reason to persue the cause. Leave it as a curiosity and enjoy the great food.
> I look forward to hearing the cause and remedy if you choose to persue the answer.


I'm not so worried about the mailbox or smoker, it leave a big black spot under the mailbox on my paving stone patio and that won't go over big.  

i agree the easiest work around will be sufficient, although knowing why would be a good thing.  I have to take the mailbox off again so I might just drill the holes another size bigger to see if it makes a difference.


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## Ringer (Feb 23, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> Thanks, I appreciate your perspective.  Thats 2 minutes on high?  I will play around with that, I have a couple.of days of loafing around. If that makes it better, I'm ok with it.  The problem is, it drips out of the holes in the bottom and leaves a big black stain and you know who won't be happy with that.


Yes sir, 2 minutes on high then stir them, you will see steam. You can go another 20-30 seconds after that but I wouldn't go too far past that. They will burn and stink.

Also, 

 mosparky
 is probably spot on with your moisture source being spent propane.


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## Nefarious (Feb 23, 2022)

Ringer said:


> Also,
> 
> mosparky
> is probably spot on with your moisture source being spent propane.


If thats true then I should be able to run for a period of time without burning the wood and get the same puddle?


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## mosparky (Feb 24, 2022)

maybe, maybe not. The result may be due to the chips burning in the spent propane atmosphere. Gonna have to give some thought as to how to prove the theory. Maybe try running the chips in an unlit smoker, see if you get moisture without the spent propane.


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## Nefarious (Feb 24, 2022)

mosparky said:


> maybe, maybe not. The result may be due to the chips burning in the spent propane atmosphere. Gonna have to give some thought as to how to prove the theory. Maybe try running the chips in an unlit smoker, see if you get moisture without the spent propane.


just a discussion.  I don't know and am just talking about things that might jar some thoughts.

By spent propane you mean the bi products of burning the propane?

There should be no reason for any air from the smoker to end up in the mailbox, the draw is the other direction.  Also, the hot air from the combustion in the smoker will only go down into the mailbox if there is sufficient pressure and we just unblocked the restriction and there is a steady flow out of the smoker through the exhaust vent.

It is known that there is liquid in the pellets, several people have posted that they microwave them and get some steam from that process.  

I can't work tomorrow, my wife just had ACL surgery and the temp is in the low 30s.  Very unlikely I will be working on it in the next couple of days.  I will do the following:

Run for 30 minutes with no wood burning.

Microwave the pellets as 

 Ringer
 has done to see if that has an effect.  I should have already done this.


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## Fueling Around (Feb 24, 2022)

Combustion (or burning) of almost anything primarily produces water vapor and carbon dioxide.
I'll use propane as an example. C3H8 + O2 = H2O + CO2 (no I didn't balance the equation).
Burning wood adds a lot of other components (creosote) but the primary output is still water vapor and carbon dioxide.
The creosote will condense or collect as a dark varnish on the cooler surfaces.  Here is my Jumbo Joe lid after the first smoke.








The inside of your mailbox should have a similar varnish.

Cool it even more and the water vapor condenses into liquid and dissolves the creosote to produce the nasty drips on your patio

Fix?  Put a drip pan under the mailbox


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## Ringer (Feb 24, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> If thats true then I should be able to run for a period of time without burning the wood and get the same puddle?


I took a look at my mes setup and found a huge drip puddle under my stack. Mine is a side stack and it has a little rain guard on it. The moisture collects around the rain guard and drips down the stack onto the deck. I don't really ever go to that side but sure enough its there. I agree with 

 Fueling Around
  and 

 mosparky
  here. They identified the "why" but I'm not sure there is a way to solve it within reason. You could insulate the exterior of the mailbox but im not sure that would even work. Like they said, a drip pan mounted under it or set on the floor under it would mitigate the side effect though.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 24, 2022)

I am not getting any water from my generator. That may be due to it being smaller, and the air eductor keeps a flow of air moving though the box so moisture, if there is any, moves on through. The box stays pretty hot.

Overall, I am very happy with the addition. It works great when smoking at lower temps for cheese, jerky, and salmon.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 24, 2022)

This is my fan setup. Although it should be mounted in the middle of the back panel, I recommend not mounting it directly to the back of the smoker. It gets really hot. I ended up adding some standoffs to leave a bit of an air gap to provide some cooling. Most of the convection fans have a long shaft so this should not be a problem. I also put some screened vents in the sides of the box to help cool. I used a metal electrical junction box.

I do believe the fan is a game changer for these little cabinet smokers. I get consistent temps throughout the cabinet, better smoke dispersion, and better bark. It is great for jerky where you need some drying action.


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

I'm able to work on this some more, no longer playing nurse to wife after her ACL surgery.



 OldSmoke
 when you mix pellets and wood to get more smoke do you just mix it all together or do you put in layer of pellets and layer of wood, ...?

I am getting more smoke after I plugged 3 of the mailbox holes but still I can hardly see it at times.  I smoked some ribs for 4 hours on Tuesday and could just barley taste the smoke.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 26, 2022)

I just mix it together. I go lighter or heavier on the chips depending on how much smoke I want.


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

Made some good progress today.  First I did what I should have.done the first time.  I put the pellets in the microwave for 2 minutes and it greatly reduced the liquid in the mailbox.  

Next I just decided to plug 2 of the intake holes in the mailbox and was able to get much more smoke consistently.  Closed a third hole and then changed the temperature from 270° to 220°, ... All the way down to 120° and got what looks like the same amount of smoke, one never knows until cook time but that all looks good.

I have 3 more things to add:
1) since I cut the exhaust out of the top, that hole needs plugged and then I need to add a vent stack.  I'm going to put the vent stack on the side opposite the mailbox.

2) i want to add a circulation fan as both 

 OldSmoke
 and 

 Ringer
 have done.  I'll start to figure that out now.  This will be mounted on the back just above the thermometer. Or maybe where the thermometer is and lower the thermometer.  I have to go back and look it over.

3) the help with the temperature swings I am going to add some thermal mass the sides of the smoker.  I will use hardie board and the pieces will be about 6" high x 1 6" long.  They will sit on the inside area about the level of the handles.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> This will be mounted on the back just above the thermometer.



Keep it mind these are not a normal fan. They do not blow at you, they are more like a paddle wheel. Getting centered on the back panel seems best. I’ve seen some mounted in a corner or on the top panel and I wonder about the effectiveness.


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> Keep it mind these are not a normal fan. They do not blow at you, they are more like a paddle wheel. Getting centered on the back panel seems best. I’ve seen some mounted in a corner or on the top panel and I wonder about the effectiveness.



Yea, I thought of using one to maybe help push/pull the smoke out of the mailbox, then I looked at it and saw how the blades were. They still move air, it is just causing turbulence.  Where ever I put it, will have to be between where the shelves are, and I have to decide how close it can be to the thermometer, which also has to go between shelves.


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## JckDanls 07 (Feb 26, 2022)

The good thing about the exhaust out the side...   condensation drips won't land on the food as if it (exhaust vent) were over top of the food...

As for closing off the top vent...  a magnetic matt (ie. signs for cars)...  cut to fit the whole top of the smoker....


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

JckDanls 07 said:


> As for closing off the top vent...  a magnetic matt (ie. signs for cars)...  cut to fit the whole top of the smoker....


It turns out that a 4" plate used for round junction boxes just fits and only costs under $4. It is close and maybe just the washer from under side holds it on.  If it doesn't work i'll certainly look into the magnetic matt. But if they had beer logo's on them, i'd be all over it.

Thanks.


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

SmokinVOLfan said:


> I don't think I have seen anyone do a mailbox mod on a propane smoker so looking forward to seeing the results!


It's getting better and better every day.  There are.still.a.couple of.issues but I think it. is under control now. The big problem is I don't really know how much smoke I should see out the stack.  I asked the admin if I could see the smoke pic's people submit to be OTBS and so far he haven't responded.

I'll post.some smoke pics in a couple of days once I get the stack put on for real instead of the drainage pipe stack.


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> This is my fan setup. Although it should be mounted in the middle of the back panel, I recommend not mounting it directly to the back of the smoker. It gets really hot. I ended up adding some standoffs to leave a bit of an air gap to provide some cooling. Most of the convection fans have a long shaft so this should not be a problem. I also put some screened vents in the sides of the box to help cool. I used a metal electrical junction box.
> 
> I do believe the fan is a game changer for these little cabinet smokers. I get consistent temps throughout the cabinet, better smoke dispersion, and better bark. It is great for jerky where you need some drying action.
> 
> View attachment 526819


Is this a multi speed fan, all I've seen are single speed versions.  Whats the circuit board do?


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## OldSmoke (Feb 26, 2022)

Yes. I can control the fan speed using a speed controller. I can just stir the smoke around and equalize temperatures, or move the air around in the cabinet more aggressively to form better bark. It also shortens the cook time a bit. It is also great for drying jerky (which it is doing right now). I repurposed the speed control from a unit sold on Amazon.


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## OldSmoke (Feb 26, 2022)

Nefarious said:


> I'll post.some smoke pics in a couple of days once I get the stack put on for real instead of the drainage pipe stack.



Too bad, I think it gives your build character!


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## Nefarious (Feb 26, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> Yes. I can control the fan speed using a speed controller. I can just stir the smoke around and equalize temperatures, or move the air around in the cabinet more aggressively to form better bark. It also shortens the cook time a bit. It is also great for drying jerky (which it is doing right now). I repurposed the speed control from a unit sold on Amazon.


So then it is a pwm control?


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## OldSmoke (Feb 28, 2022)

SCR.


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## Nefarious (Feb 28, 2022)

OldSmoke said:


> SCR.


I appreciate the link, thanks.

At this point I am not wanting any dials or switches on the smoker and want to try to control everything I can with the microcontroller. 

The UI for the controller will be implemented on the smoker with a couple of 320x240 touch screens and would like to use this as the interface to controlling the fan as well.  

I have been busy trying to learn about curing meat to make some corned beef.  It turns out I have been making it for years in potentially an unsafe way and I need to correct that.  I'm having foot surgery in a few weeks and need to get the corned beef resolved before surgery.


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## Nefarious (Feb 28, 2022)

I have a question.  I ordered the exhaust stack that will stick out the side opposite the mailbox so the draw will be cross smoker.  Maybe this is useful, maybe not.  The question is, how important is it to be as close to the top as possible?

The problem is there is a lip on the top of the side of the smoker where the top is attached to the smoker.  It is about 3/4 of an inch high.  If I mount the exhaust stack below it, it will push the exhaust down an additional 3/4" and from the drawings it is already 1" down because of the exhaust flange.


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## Nefarious (Mar 2, 2022)

The top has been plugged and the stack is supposed to arrive today.  Other then deciding how low I am willing to mount it, under the lip or over it, 3/4" difference, probably not a problem either way.

The fan is a different story.  The blade diameter is wider then the shelf height, and will require losing a rack, probably the middle one.  Another alternative is to put the fan on the top.  To me this doesn't make too much sense as.the blades do not push or pull, they just mix.  Mixing at the top doesn't serve the right purpose.

i spent many hours yesterday and today deciding if I can be ok with losing the middle shelf and I guess I am.  But, thats where the pid thermometer is at the moment.  The thermometer can't go on the sides because thats where the thermal mass goes.  If I could find 2 fans with smaller blades and mount them on the sides.of the thermometer, i would be golden.  I'm going to draw up the dimensions this afternoon and will add an image of it.


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## Nefarious (Mar 4, 2022)

I got the stack installed today, not much to talk about.  I had to take the mailbox off for a couple of reasons, most importantly I have to make an attempt to deburr the outside of the air intake holes.  That will come tomorrow.  It also has not been leak tested until the mailbox is returned.


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## Nefarious (Mar 4, 2022)

Here is a picture of the inside of the mailbox.  I have to wear gloves every time I touch it.  Everything has an not so pleasant smell. *Not sure I made this any better*.  This is the buildup from about 6hrs of cook time. 







Creosote is caused by wet and poorly burned wood.  Given this mod uses pellets I'm not sure how much I can reduce this.  The smoker is going to have to sit on a plastic mat, this will not make someone happy.


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## Nefarious (Mar 4, 2022)

JckDanls 07 said:


> The good thing about the exhaust out the side...   condensation drips won't land on the food as if it (exhaust vent) were over top of the food...
> 
> As for closing off the top vent...  a magnetic matt (ie. signs for cars)...  cut to fit the whole top of the smoker....


I pup a small round plug bolted just over the hole.  One problem with this is, it isn't flat so I can't put big things on top like a table.  I have thought about your suggestion several times and am looking into it.  I appreciate your perspective.


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## Ringer (Mar 4, 2022)

N
 Nefarious
 your stack is almost identical to mine. I'd put a drip pan under it. Condensation will likely collect on the inside of the rain hat and drip down the outside of the stack. Mine is on an mes 30 so your mileage may vary.


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## Nefarious (Mar 7, 2022)

I think this will wrap up this part of the build. 


I got to thinking that if it's pressure that is blocking the flow of smoke into the smoker from the mailbox, how can I reduce the pressure, just so I know.

If you recall the ideal gas law PV=nrT we see that the pressure is proportional to the temperature. If I can lower the temperature the pressure should lower. I had the smoker running so I started closing the needle valve. Sure enough, at around 160° smoke starts to come out of the new stack.

Once I figured this out, I want to see if there is enough smoke and I had a piece of salmon in the garage refrigerator that should have gone to the compost bin. I cooked it between 150 and 160. I couldn't eat it, I could tell from the outside that it got some good smoke, not sure how much, the tube ran out of pellets somewhere in the middle, I was busy watching the sounders lose a match vs real salt lake, so I couldn't attend to it.

Maybe this is the answer, or so I thought.  I started thinking how can I reduce the pressure in the box,  I got good results from a 3' stack, but that's not implementable.  What if I added a second stack.  Two stacks will reduce the pressure because of a larger area, the longer stack increases the speed the gas leaves the smoker, so in the end the same result.  

To prove this I was going to go out and take the patch over the original exhaust vent off and put in a drain pipe stack.  This would give me an idea of how the smoker would work for a higher temperature cook.  Then I considered how this would effect the lower temperature cooks and it would not have enough pressure to keep any smoke in the smoker, which is why the original exhaust was a pin wheel damper.  These dampers reduce the area to 1/2 so with two of them I would be in the same position as having one tube.    I did find the top part of a 3" damper but would require some welding.

I just couldn't get myself to go out and try it.  I can't see a path forward so I have decided that the mailbox mod will not work on this smoker given the skills I have, plus more cost.  I got the smoker for about $250 and the mailbox and stack are sitting close to $200 and anymore investment seems like a poor use of money.

So, I will take the mailbox off and use it as before except I will use the smoke tubes for smoke instead burning off of the flame diffusion plate.  

I can still build the PID or just go buy one, I'm not sure.  We will see how the box works with the smoke tubes.


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