# Smoking fresh sausage without cure, SAFE?



## skhunter (Dec 1, 2010)

My buddy says he mixes venison and pork with spices, no cure. Stuffs into casings, leaves in fridge overnight and then smokes at 100 degrees for 5 hours. He then freezes it. Cooks it in the oven for meals. Is it OK to do it this way or do you need a cure even if you are only smoking for flavor.


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## werdwolf (Dec 1, 2010)

That sausage would be in the danger zone quite a while.  He may be getting away with it, but someday someone will get sick.

Don't do it.  There are plenty of threads here that go into a lot of detail about this.

I'm sure someone else will be chiming in on this one.


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## bbally (Dec 1, 2010)

This would fail to bring he sausage through the 40 to 140 F danger zone in under the four hours required.

Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.

And since he feeds a family they will join him in the joyous lift off.

Not fun, don't do it this recipe is a non-starter.


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## mballi3011 (Dec 1, 2010)

Now that's is a really different way there Bbally to put it put it gets the points across. Your not a therapist are you like the one on TV


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## pineywoods (Dec 1, 2010)

I agree with the others. He may get away with it once or several thousand times but its certainly not worth taking a chance on. Adding cure to it is not that hard it just requires a basic knowledge of using cures and a decent scale to measure portions.


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## mossymo (Dec 1, 2010)

bbally said:


> Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.




Well said.


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## tjohnson (Dec 1, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *bbally*
> 
> Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.
> 
> And since he feeds a family they will join him in the joyous lift off.


I got food poisoning at a family picnic, after eating a chicken breast.  After I got sick, I found out they left the meat on the grill all day in 90° heat, rather than throw it away.  6 people got sick, and the family blamed it on the flu.  There is no flu bug that I've ever had, that compares to food poisoning!

It's numbers game when you don't cure properly or adhere to the 140 in 4 hour rule.

TJ


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## roller (Dec 1, 2010)

300 of us got it aboard ship at one time when I was in the Navy..You dont think that was a sight !


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## chefrob (Dec 1, 2010)

bbally said:


> Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.
> 
> And since he feeds a family they will join him in the joyous lift off.


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## meateater (Dec 1, 2010)

40* to 140* in 4 hours. That's the FDA rule so I would stick to it. Don't get yourself sick.


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## meateater (Dec 1, 2010)

chefrob said:


> bbally said:
> 
> 
> > Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.
> ...


Back at ya! LMAO


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## shoneyboy (Dec 1, 2010)

I have been smoking sausage for 3 yrs now.At first I really had some concerns about using cure when I first started smoking. I really had to do a lot of research. I found out that their are a lot more food bore illness that will make you sick from not using cure, than the problems from using cure.  I don't want to take that chance with myself or my family. It's not worth it... use the cure.....if nothing else for piece of mind...Shoneyboy


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## atcnick (Dec 1, 2010)

Cure prevents botulism, which loves an oxygen free, moist enviroment of 40-140*F.  Exactly the condition you find your meat at in a smokehouse.  Botulism can be deadly.  I would not risk it.


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## chefrob (Dec 2, 2010)

that's a cutie meateater.........


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## venture (Dec 2, 2010)

I saw this thread earlier and it turned my stomach. 

I was hoping that bbally would weigh in before I did because I trust what he says.

The times and temps are way off.  Throw in the wild game and it gets worse. 

Just don't do this!


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## boykjo (Dec 2, 2010)

sounds squirtalisious to me.........................


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## skhunter (Dec 2, 2010)

OK, so if he added the right amount of cure would his procedure be alright. I add cure to mine and smoke until 155 F internal so that it is ready to eat hot or cold. He says he only wants smoke flavor and doesn't want it fully cooked.


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## bbally (Dec 2, 2010)

skhunter said:


> OK, so if he added the right amount of cure would his procedure be alright. I add cure to mine and smoke until 155 F internal so that it is ready to eat hot or cold. He says he only wants smoke flavor and doesn't want it fully cooked.


As written the recipe is totally unuseable.

Adding cure 1 would fix the recipe, but not the method.

The temperature is to low for the sausage being created.

Raising the temperature over time to bring the sausage through 142 F for 20 minutes would fix the method.

To stay low and long it would require an addition of cure 2, fermento, and soy solids you could start to get it closer to a cold finish sausage.  But this level of smoking and curing could not be achieved by the person putting this recipe forward.  Not enough knowledge or experience.


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## scarbelly (Dec 2, 2010)

TJohnson said:


> > Originally Posted by *bbally*
> >
> > Your friend may get away with it for a long time, but one day he will find himself lifting off the commode under nothing by hydraulic pressure from his own bowels.
> >
> ...




 You should have eaten the thighs - bad joke but your friend is going to really make someone sick and if you follow his lead so will you


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## bbally (Dec 3, 2010)

skhunter said:


> My buddy says he mixes venison and pork with spices, no cure. Stuffs into casings, leaves in fridge overnight and then smokes at 100 degrees for 5 hours. He then freezes it. Cooks it in the oven for meals. Is it OK to do it this way or do you need a cure even if you are only smoking for flavor.


I have been food poisoned three times in my life.  All salmonella, one from chicken the wife left out all day, got home before me and found what she did (we were very young at the time and did not have any extra money around) she could not throw it out and cooked it, we both went down for three days.  Second time I was at a friends picnic, fried chicken....... was left out before frying, was put away hot and covered, and was then served cold.... 8 of us down for three days.  Last time was Chinese resto in Denver, had the shrimp........ investigation found they were cooking shrimp and adding them to the hotel pan in the walk in for 3 months with it never being removed and no rotation of the shrimp stock in the pan.  I went down for a week on that one.....

  I wanted to explain how the day this recipe kills someone down the road.  At least based on the food poisoning investigations I have looked into.......

The sausage is being made by the person with very limited knowledge of food safety using the low and slow method that requires you to understand food safety.

They have been making the sausage and getting away with it for years because they always have cooked the sausage again coming out of the freezer.  Sanitary practices are pretty good, the keep hands clean, use clean tubs to mix in, etc etc.... so for five years they have got away with it and people rave about the sausage.........

Year six, after watching foodTV they are struck by how one of the celebrities pretending to be a chef poo-poos dehydrated garlic and talks about how easy it is to shuck fresh garlic and use that instead.  Makes sense to "limited knowledge sausage man"... so he gets himself a whole bunch of fresh garlic bulbs for this year six sausage.  He commences to mash the garlic and remove the husks and throw it into the meat.

He does not realize that garlic is the number one carrier of C. botulinum and since the FoodTV said fresh is better, healthier, and good for you "limited knowledge sausage man" does not bother to research the food safety problems with garlic.

Raw contaminated garlic is now in a great environment, with no acid, no saute cooking, no food safety prep, the C. Bot. start to come alive, as the O2 depletes the C botulinum start to finish their lifecycles and release the toxin they produce, one of the most deadly known to man, and then they wait....... encysted they cannot do damage yet.....

But the smoking begins, in the 40 F to 100 F climb in the warm, wet, O2 depleted chamber the C. Bot. know this is their chance to multiply, breaking the cyst and beginning a new life cycle in ideal condition it begins... the first few minutes there are 1000 one minute later there are 2000 then 4000 then 8000 then 16000, then 32000, then 64000...... etc etc etc for the entire6 hour cook time.  With plenty of toxin produced and deposited they are partying like there is no tomorrow.  Two are removed and thrown on the grill to taste..... they are preheated from the smoker and they are deadly, they are warm though and prone to accept more heat.  When placed on the grill for the tasting, they suck up heat really fast and climb through 142 F destroying the toxin, everyone eats it and agrees the fresh garlic has really enhanced the recipe… “limited knowledge sausage man” is heralded a genius and then the gift, they are placed on a tray to cool.... having ever achieved kill temperatures the growing party continues.... toxin levels are now a harmful levels and approaching LDL 50 levels........ Now they are placed in the freezer for preservation of the food.

Flash forward the winter is waning and the spring is getting its first warm days and the Kettle grill is calling........ "Limited Knowledge Sausage Man" has a great idea for dinner... we will grill some of the new sausages in the freezer they have that healthy fresh garlic in them and I cannot wait to taste them this year.

He pulls three from the freezer… thinking of this late they are still frozen... he places them in the microwave to thaw…. two are thawed to 80 F and the C. botulinum  but the third is just reaching 40 F because it was the one in the center between the other two…  to the grill

The grill is hot and cool in places…. The three sausages are placed on the grill the two at 80 F soak up heat fast and climb through 142 F in about 14 minutes…. The toxin are destroyed…but that sausage in the center it has only climbed to 100 F but is on a hotspot of the grill so its casing is charred just like the other two….. it is removed with the rest….. The two that have climbed to proper temperature are consumed by mom and “limited knowledge sausage man” and they agree it is great…… their young daughter comes into the house and wants to know what smells good……. There is a sausage for you on the table….. and she picks up the sausage that only really made it to 100 F it is now at 75 F and the C. botulinum are partying wildly…… LD 85 levels are achieved and the sausage now contains well over 165 ng (0.000000165 grams) the young lady consumes the sausage and tells “limited knowledge sausage man”  how good it was….

She is in bed now…… and something does not feel right…… it has been 4 hours since the sausage was consumed…..  she barfs ……. Mom and “limited knowledge sausage man” are both fine… they decide she has a flu bug….. then the diarrhea starts… just part of the bug mom and “Limited Knowledge Sausage man” are feeling fine so no thought is given to food poisoning…  by morning she is really bad…. Dehydrated and feeling bad she will skip school…. Today then the blood shows up….. this is unusual… Mom finally takes her to the doctor….. the doctor takes a look at her and realizes that something is seriously wrong she is not exhibiting signs of a bug, but of poisoning…. What did she eat?  Sausages, who made the sausage?  It was homemade…. The docs eyes light up… she knows….we need to take her to the hospital now……….

It is confirmed at the hospital…. C *  botulinum poisoning….* They get her to intensive care and run the blood work… liver shut down,…. Kidney function failing….. she made need a transplant…. Only a 35 percent chance she will live……… may lose liver function and need that transplanted too.

Did she make it?  Does not matter, point is when you don’t seek the correct knowledge you are loading one chamber of the revolver and every time you pull the trigger after the spin it may go off…..

I don’t preach food safety to be a pain in the butt… it is very serious.


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## Dutch (Dec 3, 2010)

skhunter said:


> OK, so if he added the right amount of cure would his procedure be alright. I add cure to mine and smoke until 155 F internal so that it is ready to eat hot or cold. He says he only wants smoke flavor and doesn't want it fully cooked.


Tell him he can always use "liquid smoke" if all he wants is the smoke flavor.


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## skhunter (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for your help bbally. So has he been getting away with this because the sausage is always cooked thoroughly (2 hrs at 350 in the oven) before being eaten.


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## Bearcarver (Dec 3, 2010)

skhunter said:


> Thanks for your help bbally. So has he been getting away with this because the sausage is always cooked thoroughly (2 hrs at 350 in the oven) before being eaten.


I wasn't going to bother on this thread, because I just saw it, and there are already a lot of "Big Guns" saying nobody should break the 40˚ to 140˚ in 4 hours rule, on sausage.

But in answer to this question, cooking it for 2 hours at 350˚, would be fine, if it was done in the first 4 hours to get it to over 140˚, but once he ruined it, it's too late. He has been getting away with it by "LUCK".

Bear


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## princess (Dec 3, 2010)

"I got a buddy who says..."

All of my BEST moron jokes start with that same phrase. ;)

... he never wears a seatbelt.

... he never wears a motorcycle helmet.

... he never wears a condom.

... he's never seen a dentist.

... he doesn't wash his hands.

... he drinks a 12-pack and still drives.

Preventative measures are JUST that. Preventative.

Some of these things, people are more passionate about than others. The passion comes from two things: *Perception* and* Experience*.  Those of us who have seen how FAST bacteria multiplies under ideal conditions (microscopically) are terrified of them. Those who HAVE dealt with the pain of food poisoning are often more careful in the future.

IMHO... if I am only affecting ME, I take more risks. I drive a little faster when I am alone. I eat my steak rare.

If I am affecting others, I owe it to them to take their care into consideration. My 2 year old son only gets meat cooked to safe temperatures. If he is in the car, I drive more responsibly.

I'm sure your buddy is a good guy, I just wouldn't eat his food.

S*idebar: bbally? You are my hero. I love your story above more than I have words for. xoxo*  

(In my area, we call those "analogical perception altering story-tales"  Yours is really good.)


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## princess (Dec 3, 2010)

No. That's not how it works. Rotten food remains rotten.

See Bear's post above. You gotta hit bacteria killing temps FIRST.

If I cut you with a dirty knife and do nothing, you're going to get an infection.

If I cut you with a dirty knife, then clean your wound, you're LESS likely to get infected.

If I sterilize the knife, then cut you, and clean the wound, you'd call that surgery.  ;)


skhunter said:


> Thanks for your help bbally. So has he been getting away with this because the sausage is always cooked thoroughly (2 hrs at 350 in the oven) before being eaten.


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## DanMcG (Dec 3, 2010)

bbally said:


> I don’t preach food safety to be a pain in the butt… it is very serious.


Thanks Bob, this is a great hobby but it tends to be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, and any time anyone can reminde the less experienced, then we are all better off.


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## ak1 (Dec 4, 2010)

As Bear said, your friend got away with it by luck.

It needs to be taken beyond the danger zone during the smoke. Otherwise the bacteria develop toxins, and even though the bacteria are killed, the toxins remain.


skhunter said:


> Thanks for your help bbally. So has he been getting away with this because the sausage is always cooked thoroughly (2 hrs at 350 in the oven) before being eaten.


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