# OK so any scientific reason why one should not use water or any other liquid why smoking in an elect



## tempnexus (Sep 16, 2017)

So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!  

Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


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## dr k (Sep 16, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!
> 
> Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


Being insulated, electric and vertical is about as efficient as a smoker can be. No fuel to burn so no copious amounts of air that has a drying effect. Those of us that never put liquid in the water pan and have windows, being the least insulated of the smoker have droplets condensing on the window in the Fall, Winter and Spring. Some have pools of condendation leaking out of the smoker. I leave the water pan in because the design helps with heat distribution but never have had liquid in it. I like to spritz hourly so that is added humidity. Some put clean play sand in the water pan as a heat sink and for even heating. Insulated cooking is the way to go. My Kamado has never had water in the pan as well. 
-Kurt


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## noboundaries (Sep 16, 2017)

Water in the water pan, regardless of the type of smoker, is there to be a heat sink to stabilize temps.  It has no impact on the "moistness" of meat.  The moist environment of evaporating water can cause more smoke to adhere to the meat.  My wife is a supertaster and can absolutely tell if I've used water in the pan or not.  Trust me, I've tested her.  Meat tastes too smoky to her if I use water in the water pan.  I don't spritz for the same reason. 

Electric smokers maintain temp nicely.  Just make sure to know what the ACTUAL temp is in your smoker.  The set temp and the actual temp can be off by tens of degrees.


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## daveomak (Sep 16, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!
> 
> Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


Too much smoke and sounds like your exhaust is closed down....  cut back on the chips...  open the exhaust wide open...   give that a try....

Skip the water....


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## uncle eddie (Sep 16, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> Too much smoke and sounds like your exhaust is closed down....  cut back on the chips...  open the exhaust wide open...   give that a try....
> 
> Skip the water....


I agree with Dave.  I have an MES40 that I no longer use water in the water pan and get great results.


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## DanMcG (Sep 16, 2017)

One exception for using water, for me at least is when you're doing long sausage smokes. the low humidity will make the casings like shoe leather if there's not enough humidity. For me it's usually a winter problem.


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## daveomak (Sep 16, 2017)

....  I use a tuna can with water to smoke sausage...


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## daricksta (Sep 16, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!
> 
> Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


I never put water nor play sand in the water pan of my MES 30 Gen 1 and meat dryness is never a problem unless I've overcooked the crap out of it, which I did to a boneless chuck roast two weeks ago. I should've pulled it at 195-200°F IT but let it cook to about 203° IT. The chucky didn't have the fat to withstand cooking that long like a beef brisket or a pork shoulder does. But the aforesaid brisket, pork ribs, pork loin, and poultry all turn out moist and tender with the water pan foiled over and used as a drip pan and not to produce steam (which a water-filled pan will do) or as a heat sink.


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## parrot-head (Sep 22, 2017)

I have sand in mine always


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## daricksta (Sep 22, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!
> 
> Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


You're over smoking your food, probably by using too many wood chips. Filling the water pan with water wouldn't help that, it would just serve to steam what you're smoking since the pan is too big for the small interior of the smoker--that's your scientific reason right there. I've been using the AMNPS with wood pellets for years precisely because it doesn't oversmoke food. I also foil over my water pan to use it as another drip pan. I found that filling it with dry sand wasn't an effective heat sink in my MES 30 Gen 1.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 22, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> So I have a MB gen 1 30" electric smoker and everyone says not to use water pan but each smoker recipe I came across advises to use a water pan so what the hell?!!!!
> 
> Is there any scientific reason stating why one should not use it?  I keep getting a sour/tart/bitter feeling on my smoke without using water...will using water help?


Yes---The scientific reason is simply that it works much better without water in a Wattburner than it does with water!!

If anything having water in the pan could give you some bitter flavor when the smoke hits the wet meat.

Water isn't needed because there is already too much humidity in a well insulated Wattburner.

Bear


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## daricksta (Sep 22, 2017)

Bearcarver said:


> Yes---The scientific reason is simply that it works much better without water in a Wattburner than it does with water!!
> 
> If anything having water in the pan could give you some bitter flavor when the smoke hits the wet meat.
> 
> ...


I agree. I would think that those who use Traegers or the relatively inexpensive offset smokers where poor insulation is an issue would need to use a water pan of some kind or mop the crap out of what they're smoking to keep it from drying out. But then when you see videos of BBQ places with meats on a rotating carousel or pros in BBQ compettions (who don't use cabinet smokers) how do they keep their meats from drying out? I know that's why some pros do a lot of mopping during competition smokes.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 23, 2017)

daRicksta said:


> I agree. I would think that those who use Traegers or the relatively inexpensive offset smokers where poor insulation is an issue would need to use a water pan of some kind or mop the crap out of what they're smoking to keep it from drying out. But then when you see videos of BBQ places with meats on a rotating carousel or pros in BBQ compettions (who don't use cabinet smokers) how do they keep their meats from drying out? I know that's why some pros do a lot of mopping during competition smokes.


Yup---My thoughts exactly!

Bear


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## jokensmoken (Sep 23, 2017)

I've learned to use about every inexpensive smoker or smoking technique out there including but not limited to: a gas grill, a kettle grill, an ECB, a WSM, a mmultitude of generic bullet type smokers, an MES, an MB 40XL propane and an older okie Joe.
In the early days, some 27 years, ago I ALWAYS used water...
As I got more and more into smoking over the years i read more and more about it...however, like you, every recipe or mfg instruction booklet I'd seen said "add water" so i was skeptical at first wben the folks actually doing it contradicted with that.
But, I started trying no water on various smokes.  Now, I do have a heat sink in all of my personal smokers but, I've come to the conclusion there is no real advantage to using water with the exception of sausage in casings or smoking salt...the moisture keeps casings soft and it helps salt retain a more smokey flavor.
As far as scientific "proof" nope, cant give it to ya...but a dozen+ years of not using water with excellent results, I personally don't need any.

Walt


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## Bearcarver (Sep 23, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> I've learned to use about every inexpensive smoker or smoking technique out there including but not limited to: a gas grill, a kettle grill, an ECB, a WSM, a mmultitude of generic bullet type smokers, an MES, an MB 40XL propane and an older okie Joe.
> In the early days, some 27 years, ago I ALWAYS used water...
> As I got more and more into smoking over the years i read more and more about it...however, like you, every recipe or mfg instruction booklet I'd seen said "add water" so i was skeptical at first wben the folks actually doing it contradicted with that.
> But, I started trying no water on various smokes. Now, I do have a heat sink in all of my personal smokers but, I've come to the conclusion there is no real advantage to using water with the exception of sausage in casings or smoking salt...the moisture keeps casings soft and it helps salt retain a more smokey flavor.
> ...


That is Scientific Proof (Underlined & Bold).

Bear


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## dr k (Sep 23, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> I've learned to use about every inexpensive smoker or smoking technique out there including but not limited to: a gas grill, a kettle grill, an ECB, a WSM, a mmultitude of generic bullet type smokers, an MES, an MB 40XL propane and an older okie Joe.
> In the early days, some 27 years, ago I ALWAYS used water...
> As I got more and more into smoking over the years i read more and more about it...however, like you, every recipe or mfg instruction booklet I'd seen said "add water" so i was skeptical at first wben the folks actually doing it contradicted with that.
> But, I started trying no water on various smokes.  Now, I do have a heat sink in all of my personal smokers but, I've come to the conclusion there is no real advantage to using water with the exception of sausage in casings or smoking salt...the moisture keeps casings soft and it helps salt retain a more smokey flavor.
> ...


Right!  The scientific proof is the fact that cooking meat contracts and shrinks, expressing liquids to the surface. So how can humid air from a water pan, mopping or spritzing go into meat to moisten it when liquids are being pushed out?......they can't. Selecting well marbled meats is the key for juiciness.  Fat is where It's at. It's hard to dry out a pork shoulder or brisket point but a lean brisket flat with only the outside fat cap can get dry. Wet surfaces pick up smoke but more importantly with the perpetual evaporative cooling from moisture from the surface of the meat from the water pan (thermophoresis or thermal migration of hot smoky air to the lower energy surface of the meat) is constant for over smoked meat. 
-Kurt


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## dr k (Sep 24, 2017)

This is the link I got my info from in my post above. You can jump down to the three cotton discs and beer can tests or read the whole thing. 

http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_tec...site&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email

-Kurt


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## jokensmoken (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks Kurt, VERY GOOD READ...but the article actually advocates the use of water, not for moisture of the meat internally but to moisten and cool (through humidity and evaporation) the surface of the meat to add a more smokey flavor so there does seem to be some support for insuring higher humidity in your CC...
I'll definitely add this experiment to my list of things to try...ill weigh my wood and smoke two identical (as close as possible) pieces at the   same temps, one dry and one with water and some spritzing to see it the smoke flavor is different.

Walt


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## daveomak (Sep 24, 2017)

The picture below says ALOT iffin you ponder the meaning...    Condensate....   Creosote collection...   Bitter tasting meats...   

The primary and possibly the only thing that keeps meat moist is intramuscular fat....













Cold meat vs smoker temp meat.jpg



__ daveomak
__ Sep 24, 2017


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## jokensmoken (Sep 24, 2017)

Yes I'm not suggesting humidity keep the meat moisture internally but on the outside surgace to allow more smoke flavor to adhere to the meat...and if there's no creosote being generated you shouldnt get any collected on the meat...yes, no, maybe?

Walt


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## dr k (Sep 24, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> Yes I'm not suggesting humidity keep the meat moisture internally but on the outside surgace to allow more smoke flavor to adhere to the meat...and if there's no creosote being generated you shouldnt get any collected on the meat...yes, no, maybe?
> 
> Walt


If your generating smoke from wood you generating creosote. Even the best seasoned hardwoods burned hot in a wood burning fireplace generate creosote and needs to be swept. Smoke = incompletely burned volitiles (including creosote), carbon and water vapor. The hotter your wood burns the less smoke = less creosote. You can't eliminate creosote from burning wood. Only burn more of it with higher temps which release more phenols and alcohols  etc. and giving a more complex smoke flavor which is hard to do in electric smokers and Kamados (insulated smokers.) The article mentions burning down splits and shoveling those 650-750*f  charred embers into your pit with wafting light smoke. Most wood burning stoves and fireplaces have a high temp recommendation to eliminate creosote build up.  Maybe how horizontal stick burners came about because it takes a lot of heat to get 225 *f down to the food rack but your burning up creosote, releasing favorable flavors in smoke. 

So if I was going to test two pieces of meat I'd do no spritzing or water in the pan for one. Then spritz the second occasionally and compare.  If you did a third piece of meat with water in the pan that doesn't run out of water in the pan then that would be the most smoky. 

Like I always say,  do what you like.  No right or wrong. 
-Kurt


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## dr k (Sep 24, 2017)

DaveOmak said:


> The picture below says ALOT iffin you ponder the meaning...    Condensate....   Creosote collection...   Bitter tasting meats...
> 
> The primary and possibly the only thing that keeps meat moist is intramuscular fat....
> 
> ...


Yes internal fat for juicy results. This is a Costco Prime trimmed brisket. I prefer much more external fat cap for low and slow but it's a beautiful view of what should be great fat below the surface. 












20170923_140432.jpg



__ dr k
__ Sep 24, 2017





-Kurt


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## dr k (Sep 24, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> Thanks Kurt, VERY GOOD READ...but the article actually advocates the use of water, not for moisture of the meat internally but to moisten and cool (through evaporation) the surface of the meat to add a more smokey flavor so there does seem to be some support for insuring higher humidity in your CC...
> I'll definitely add this experiment to my list of things to try...ill weigh my wood and smoke two identical (as close as possible) pieces at the   same temps, one dry and one with water and some spritzing to see it the smoke flavor is different.
> 
> Walt


Yes I was just agreeing with Noboundaries post on water in the pan as a heat sink only with no moisture adding benefits. 
-Kurt


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## jokensmoken (Sep 24, 2017)

Right...im in absolute agreement.
My thinking is: if I'm controlling my smoke so as to not have billowing white, gray or black but thin blue smoke  then the odds of getting bitter or foul tasting meat from creosote is reduced.
That being said the test would be to see HOW MUCH difference there is in the smoke taste.
As I've said, what someone thinks is the best technique is absolutely going to be the technique that gives THEM the results THEY like best.
Best is perspective and a personal preference...
On a other note...
I've been smoking since I got my first ECB type smoker in 1990...since then there isn't an inexpensive ($300.00 or less) smoker I haven't learned to use...AND...
I'm very happy with my technique, my ability to control smoke and temperature and am very confident in getting consistently good results.
Now I'm on to doing controlled tests on different techniques and trying new stuff just to find out what's what...SO...
Just as I abandoned using water long ago as I found no real advantage, I now see a potential positive for using it so I'm gonna find out.

Walt


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## daveomak (Sep 24, 2017)

Try it with water....  These meats are smoked without a water pan...   Vents wide open...  pellets burning in the AMNPS at temps from 65 for the bacon and 130 ish for the rest for ~4 hours.....   Clean with no bitter flavor...  3-4 hours +/- is my target time for  my taste....













002.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Sep 16, 2017


















BACON 7-2017 003.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Aug 25, 2017


















DSCF1925.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Jan 7, 2017


















Ground Formed Bacon 001.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Dec 31, 2016





...













PORK LOIN 4 hours smoke 001.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Nov 28, 2016


















002.JPG



__ daveomak
__ Oct 31, 2016


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## jokensmoken (Sep 24, 2017)

Great looking stuff, now im hungry...lol...
Using water will essentially be brand new for me as it's been years, maybe a decade since I have...
I'm simply curious...on some things (mainly beef) I like a more Smokey flavor and am hoping I may find a technique other than just pouring on the smoke...maybe (I'm hoping) I'll find I can use fewer chunks and still get more smoke flavor by keeping the surface of the meat moister.

Walt


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## Bearcarver (Sep 25, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> Great looking stuff, now im hungry...lol...
> Using water will essentially be brand new for me as it's been years, maybe a decade since I have...
> I'm simply curious...on some things (mainly beef) I like a more Smokey flavor and am hoping I may find a technique other than just pouring on the smoke...maybe (I'm hoping) I'll find I can use fewer chunks and still get more smoke flavor by keeping the surface of the meat moister.
> 
> Walt


Maybe try putting a pellicle on it. That will make good smoke adherence.

I think all a wet surface will give you is bad tasting smoke flavor.

Bear


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## tempnexus (Sep 25, 2017)

hmm the amazingribs website seems to have all the science and not just hearsay so why do we have this one going?!


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## tempnexus (Sep 25, 2017)

Yeah  I love yoo


DaveOmak said:


> Try it with water....  These meats are smoked without a water pan...   Vents wide open...  pellets burning in the AMNPS at temps from 65 for the bacon and 130 ish for the rest for ~4 hours.....   Clean with no bitter flavor...  3-4 hours +/- is my target time for  my taste....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah great pictures of low temp smokes but umm can you take insurance cards for anyone who gets botulism or any other low temp smoke resultant disorder?! If so then sure I will low smoke my meats. 

I am sorry for being bitter (pun intended) but many folks think that when they have a cold smoker that they can smoke all the meats/fish or what have you anytime they want.  IN the end just because you can doesn't mean you should.  I mean sure cold smoke your own meat...but if you die then umm you won't have enough energy to post on this forum that you failed and someone else will try to do what you failed at. 

In the end being a scientist myself while trying to take on smoking let me say that reading forums and seeing what folk do without the actual science why they do it, and then seeing what amateours (like myself) do which results in success makes you wonder on the technique but in the end....are you just lucky?!

Sure, when I was a kid I came back home from a mud fight and ate whatever my mom served, but then I was sick for few days or so....I am no longer a kid and I can't afford to be sick since well I have a job and a limited amount of sick leave.   

I apologize if anyone feels hurt by this post, I am just saying that whatever you see on this forum, don't take it to heart, research your own stuff and make certain that whatever you do is good for you regardless what others say, in the end it's your and your families life.


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## jokensmoken (Sep 25, 2017)

You're assuming no cure was used...i cold smoke all the time but ensure the proper cures are used and precautions are taken.  I was speculating about water vs smoke flavor and all Dave pointed out was that he had achieved good smokey flavor without high temps, an over abundance of smoke or added water Nowhere was it suggested these were proper cold smoking techniques, nor did they suggest further cooking was not needed...i cold smoke belly bacon that still needs to be fried (furtger cooked) before eating all the time....that doesn't make my technique wrong or dangerous or that anyone is going to get botulism.


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 26, 2017)

tempnexus said:


> Yeah  I love yoo
> 
> Yeah great pictures of low temp smokes but umm can you take insurance cards for anyone who gets botulism or any other low temp smoke resultant disorder?! If so then sure I will low smoke my meats.
> 
> ...


We at SMF appreciate your joining our group and are delighted you are eager to learn by posting questions. However, l see you have not been here long or read many of our posts. If you spend some time reading and learning our ways, you would quickly learn that, NO ONE here smokes at temps under 200°F without using Cure.  If they do, no one would ever know about it because with few exceptions and only after careful review, posts of unsafe practices are Deleted or a bold face red warning is posted that there are huge risks to following this procedure. Cure #1 with it's Sodium Nitrite makes cold smoking, ambient to 130°F, for 1 to 7 days completely safe regarding Botulism and Listeria infection. Proper handling and the use of salt and smoke inhibits most other bacteria of lesser concern.

The staff of SMF has been selected for their abilty, knowledge, expertise and dedication to making sure information posted here is accurate and safe. There is far greater risk following the often inaccurate, or out right Dangerous, non peer reviewed information you will find " researching your own stuff " on the web. Lastly, if you had read even a few of DaveOmak's threads, you would know NO ONE is more conscientious of strictly following Food Safety procedure and when it comes to Curing and Cold Smoking, Dave goes beyond the self proclaimed experts, calculating the cure to be used in Parts Per Million by product weight! Dave would add Cure to Cure if he thought he would get extra insurance. There is a reason Dave has OTBS status and over 20,000 posts, it may be a good idea to learn about the man before you question his knowledge or ask if he is just lucky...We don't always agree but there is no one l respect more...JJ


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## jokensmoken (Sep 26, 2017)

Thanks chef.
It nice to have our safety expert be such a competent writer also.

Walt.


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## jokensmoken (Sep 26, 2017)

Took me a couple days to respond John, I wanted to review your step by steps first.
So I'm familiar with forming a pellicle on things like fish...
Are you advocating or suggesting to try it on say a prime rib or brisket also?
I don't think I've heard of that before and didn't see that step in any of your step by steps.
It hadn't occurred to me before, you've got my curiosity piqued a little here.

Walt


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## daveomak (Sep 26, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> Took me a couple days to respond John, I wanted to review your step by steps first.
> So I'm familiar with forming a pellicle on things like fish...
> Are you advocating or suggesting to try it on say a prime rib or brisket also?
> I don't think I've heard of that before and didn't see that step in any of your step by steps.
> ...


All meat, that is going to be smoked, has it's surface dried in a "no smoke added" smoker at ~110-130 deg. F smoker with the vents open and good air flow...  Once dry, smoke is added...

This is what a pork loin looks like that has had the pellicle formed prior to adding smoke...   The meat surface is sealed and dry...  Smoke adheres and penetrates very will and moisture is retained inside the pellicle....


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## jokensmoken (Sep 26, 2017)

Interesting...There seems to be conflicting ideologies.
I've been led to believe that adding smoke to cold or colder meats results in better smoke flavor and many recipies say "after your smoker has come up to temp and smoke stabilized, add your meat"
You're  suggesting I've been mislead or is that outdated advice?

Walt.


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## jokensmoken (Sep 26, 2017)

Just when I thought I had it pretty much figured out...lol

Walt.


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## Bearcarver (Sep 26, 2017)

jokensmoken said:


> Interesting...There seems to be conflicting ideologies.
> I've been led to believe that adding smoke to cold or colder meats results in better smoke flavor and many recipies say "after your smoker has come up to temp and smoke stabilized, add your meat"
> You're suggesting I've been mislead or is that outdated advice?
> 
> Walt.


The only things I put a Pellicle on are Fish, and anything I cured first, like all forms of Bacon & Dried Beef. Those things get lower Heat throughout the smoking process, not like Prime Rib, Ribs, etc, etc.

I believe the bad combination would be low heat & heavy smoke on a wet surface (Bitter). But maybe that's just me.

Bear


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## daveomak (Sep 26, 2017)

IMO....   What you read on the internet or watch on TV, is some dude trying to make a living convincing you his way is correct...   Now, in order for him to be successful, he has to be different than all the others trying to sell their ideas....  If they all agreed, you would never tune in to see what was going on because you had seen it all before....

Almost 60 years ago, I was watching and learning from my 70 year old neighbor, on how to smoke fish...    I've learned from friends that operated fish markets and commercial smokers...   For a period of time, I worked at Hempler's BB meat and Sausage company, as a contractor where my buddy was the head maintenance person...  I learned a lot about the process of sausage, hams, bacon making etc...  Checked out their massive smoke generators.. heating and ventilation systems on their smokers as I was there welding up and repairing their equipment...  They had hundreds of Blue Ribbons from entering their products in Nation Wide manufacturers competitions...

That being said....  There is no wrong way when it comes to smoking.. Personal preference is what matters...   I have found tweaking others methods, sort of, makes a product I can live with... 

The only advice I can give is.....  Change your method and try others...  You might like it...  you may not...  

Only hard and fast rule is...   Do not deviate from the accepted processes of adding nitrite to your product...  you usually only get botulism once..

http://hemplers.com/our-story/

......


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## jokensmoken (Sep 26, 2017)

Thanks Dave,
I've been smoking, mostly by trial and error, since I got my first ECB type smoker in about 1990.
After seversl years I sort of became complacent, accepting that I had learned to make pretty good Q.  Once I reached that stage, for awhile I felt like I was just going through the motions...the fun and excitement of learning and trying new things was kind of gone.
THEN...the internet was born...
AND everybody was offering up techniques, recipies and advice...then came along you tube and folks were posting videos and what not.
Even then I hadn't found much I didn't figure I hadn't already figured out.
Since then, after finding and reading a few well regarded forums (SMF being my favorite, my "go to" and pretty much exclusive advice column now) and blogs I've gone from believing I was pretty darned accomplished to discovering I've barely scratched the surface and I'm once again fired up and excited about smoking and learning new or improving existing techniques...
I know from personal experience there's no "set in stone" right or wrong way (except during curing) to smoking.
Thanks for your input...I heed or consider everything guys such as yourself suggest.

Walt


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