# Decided to settle the salmon battle on my own.  Not sure I did...



## bigfish98 (Sep 15, 2012)

OK, recently I have noticed some differences of opinion on smoked salmon.  There have been two threads that I have been watching to see what happens popcorn in hand.  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Both are dealing with smoking salmon but are based on two different preparations. 

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/127170/hot-smoking-salmon-throwing-down-the-gauntlet

and

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/126282/salty-salmon

I decided to try both variations and see what I liked better.  Here are my thoughts.

To start with the top link, the salmon is placed in a brine of 1 cup salt and 2 cups brown sugar per gallon of water, then brined for 90 minutes and smoked at 140 degrees until done which being a rookie I used IT of 140 degrees. 

The second method details using a more ingredient heavy (1/2 cup salt, 2 cups sugar, pepper, garlic powder, bay leaves, cayenne, etc.) brine in only 1 quart of water.  This method calls for a brine time of 16 to 24 hours. 

Here is my fish.













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I had approximately 5 pounds so I put half in each brine.













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I weighted each batch down with a plate and set them in the fridge to brine.

Of course I took the one batch out at 90 minutes, rinse quickly, patted dry and placed on counter in front of the fan to form a pellicle.  I smoked them using my MES 40 and my amnps with the Hickory Cherry Maple mix at 140 degrees until it hit 140.  As you can see in the pic from the piece in the middle on the left I couldn't help from eating it before I got my camera ready.  What you can't see from the pic is that there was already a piece gone that I ate!!  It was very good!!













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Here is a couple close ups.













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Wife loved it and shared a little with the neighbors while I waited on the other batch to get done brining. 

i removed the other brined batch, rinsed, patted dry and formed pellicle with a fan.  They had brined about 18 hours.

I used the same smoking procedures and set up with this batch as the last one.  As you can see from the picture below, I am still having small self control issues.  This salmon was also very tasty! 













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Here are the close ups. 













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And the winner is.................

BOTH!

They are both really good.  The longer brined salmon has a more salty taste.  Both are very flavorful. 

The wife and i did agree that we did not get too much of a different flavor from the more ingredient intense brine.  The salt level was good in the shorter brined batch and the longer brined batch could turn some people off who don't like salt (I am not one of those people, but as I tell my wife, I have a sodium deficiency!) 

For any future salmon though, I believe for the short brine time and less ingredients, I will definately be using the first method as it it less work and takes less time. 

Thanks for reading!

Bigfish


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## diggingdogfarm (Sep 15, 2012)

I fix mine either cold smoked or kippered, both have their place.
Scottish heritage here, so both cold smoked salmon and kippers are big favorites in our family.


~Martin


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## mike johnson (Sep 15, 2012)

I love how people compare threads on here. It saves me time, and with salmon season here you just saved me a day and a half doing it myself.


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## akhap (Sep 16, 2012)

Mike Johnson said:


> I love how people compare threads on here. It saves me time, and with salmon season here you just saved me a day and a half doing it myself.



mike
As the starter of one of the threads I congratulate you for seeing the error in so many other posters lives...  But here is the funny part...  I have been arrested exactly one time in my life and it happened in Lacey....  Not only were charges dropped but they were trying to "court my favor" all the way out the door...

So I have a special place in my heart for Lacey!  :biggrin:  

Now I have to find that bale of hundred dollar bills to send to bigfish!
art


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## akhap (Sep 16, 2012)

bigfish98 said:


> OK, recently I have noticed some differences of opinion on smoked salmon.  There have been two threads that I have been watching to see what happens popcorn in hand.  :110:
> 
> Both are dealing with smoking salmon but are based on two different preparations.
> 
> ...



The problem is simpler and you seemed to overlook the primary issue with the two methods.  The other method involved smoking to a temperature North of the "magic" temperature.  If you use the higher temperature and any brining method you will lose...  Stick to the lower temperature as the primary control point and you will make fewer mistakes...  Or at least you will duplicate fewer of my mistakes.
art


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## akhap (Sep 16, 2012)

But where do I send the check?  :biggrin:


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## bigfish98 (Sep 16, 2012)

AKhap said:


> The problem is simpler and you seemed to overlook the primary issue with the two methods. The other method involved smoking to a temperature North of the "magic" temperature. If you use the higher temperature and any brining method you will lose... Stick to the lower temperature as the primary control point and you will make fewer mistakes... Or at least you will duplicate fewer of my mistakes.
> art


I admit that I didn't follow the other thread to a T.  My smoker did go higher than 140 when I smoked them though.  It hit 169 cause it was 90 degrees here.  For your method, I did keep it strictly at or under 140 as I was doing it at night and it was in the 40s. 

Oh and as for the check, all my friends call me "cash"!  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Bigfish


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 16, 2012)

bigfish98, nice pictures and good to you for taking the initiative to do a flavor test.

  Over the years of curing and smoking salmon for friends I have learned that there are generally two groups.  One that will take their fish and before they get home it is gone or almost gone.  The other is the ones that will take it home and horde it in the refrigerator, sometimes for months.  The latter is one of the reasons that I insure they are taking a safe product home.

  In your test, I take it you cooked both types of fish for the same amount of time and at the same temperature.  If this is so it would have been nice, since you put so much time and effort into your test that you would have taken a couple pieces and smoked them according to my smoker temps, internal temps and time.  This way you could have done a taste test immediately with one piece and used the other in a preservation test.  If in the future you do decide to do another test, prepare them separately the same way for the refrigerator in a either a zip bag, cling wrap or vacuum seal and place them separately in the refrigerator.  After one month tell us which one you chose to eat. I cannot recommend you do that with the fish from your test as neither was brought to the safe temperature of 145° for 30 minutes which will inhibit bacterial growth, while anything below that temperature and time will promote bacterial growth. Do I recommend leaving smoked fish in the refrigerator that long?  No, but it does happen, even in this household.  If in the future you decide to do another test using my recipe, you can expect, depending on the type of smoker used and the amount of fish that the fish will be completely done in the one and a half hour range.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/newestpost/122931

  As for the time my recipe takes.  It’s been my experience that when working in the kitchen, the amount of time and work put into a recipe has direct correlation to the quality of the finished product.

Hope this helps and does not add to the confusion.

Tom


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 16, 2012)

bigfish98,  if you think temp on my recipe was held at 145 degrees or above for one half hour, go ahead and do the preservation test.

Didn't notice any fat oozing.  Could that be possible?

T


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## bigfish98 (Sep 16, 2012)

I agree that I did not test both methods scientifically.  My main question between the two was if the brines and brining time made a difference.  Next time I will check the temp side.  Wait a minute...  that is the scientific way of checking things!  Otherwise I wouldn't know if it was the brine and brine time or the temp that made a difference!  

And as for your method taking shorter to smoke, doesn't that go against your assertion that the longer it takes the better the product?  

Bigfish

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## mr t 59874 (Sep 16, 2012)

I was referring to the entire process and not just this recipe but others as well.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





I also like your trailer, I'm getting a rack of spares ready for the smoker as we speak.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Later


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## akhap (Sep 16, 2012)

Mr T 59874 said:


> bigfish98,  if you think temp on my recipe was held at 145 degrees or above for one half hour, go ahead and do the preservation test.
> 
> Didn't notice any fat oozing.  Could that be possible?
> 
> T



And exactly how do you propose he make the "preservation" test scientific?  Should he count microbes?  How?  Surely you are not going to suggest he rely on his gut... There may be a pun in there.

I am amazed...


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 17, 2012)

I am not getting what the disagreement is about. Considering every FDA and USDA Food storage chart recommends not storing cooked Fish or other meats for that matter, more than 3-4 days, Smoked Fish 14 days. If this storage time needs to be exceeded the product should be frozen. Whether Smoked Fish is Cold Smoked, Smoked to 140*F, 145*F or 165*F, 14 days is it in the Refrigerator. Storing Fish beyond this point is risky and should never be done.  These are the FDA and USDA Guidelines that SMF has chosen to follow and recommend to those that we share our product with...JJ

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/ResourcesForYou/HealthEducators/ucm109315.pdf

*Product Refrigerator / Freezer*

*Fish & Shellfish*

Lean fish 1 to 2 days / 6 months

Fatty fish 1 to 2 days / 2 to 3 months

Cooked fish 3 to 4 days / 4 to 6 months

Smoked fish 14 days / 2 months

Fresh shrimp, scallops,

crawfish, squid 1 to 2 days / 3 to 6 months

Canned seafood _after opening out of can_

Pantry, 5 years 3 to 4 days / 2 months

http://teamnutrition.usda.gov/Resources/ccrecipes3-6supp.pdf

IF YOU ARE STORING THIS FOOD ITEM IN THE REFRIGERATOR...

  

STORE NO LONGER THAN...

  

Meat/Meat Alternates

Chicken or turkey, cooked 3-4 days

Casseroles, meat, poultry, egg 3-4 days

Chicken nuggets 1-2 days

*Chicken or turkey, raw 1-2 days

Eggs, hard-cooked 1 week

Eggs, in shell, raw 3-5 weeks

Eggs, yolks, whites, substitutes, raw 2-4 days

*Fish, cooked 3-4 days*

*Fish, raw 1-2 days

Frankfurters, opened package 1 week

Frankfurters, sealed package 2 weeks

Gravy and meat broth 3-4 days

*Meat, chops, steaks, roasts, raw 3-5 days

Meat, cooked 3-4 days

*Meat or poultry, ground, raw 1-2 days

Meat, luncheon, store-sliced 3-5 days

Meat, luncheon, closed package 2 weeks

Meat, luncheon, opened package 3-5 days

Prepared salads: tuna, chicken, egg 3-5 days

Sausage, precooked 7 days

*Sausage, uncooked 1-2 days


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## akhap (Sep 17, 2012)

Exactly!  A couple posters have confused hot smoking with cold smoking on the food preservation side of things...  And think refrigerated cooked fish should have a two month shelf life.

In the industry the guidelines are set, but the individual processors can stray significantly as long as they explain where and why they choose another route.  With hot-smoked fish the problem is putting it in sterile packages with a total oxygen barrier.  Putting it in the refrigerator with plenty of oxygen available the threat of botulism is virtually a non-issue.  But then some insist on leaving it there for a month...

Unreal!


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## smokinhusker (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm lucky if any fish lasts longer than a day! Thanks for the info.


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## diggingdogfarm (Sep 17, 2012)

60 day shelf-life refrigerated fully cooked smoked salmon is *real*, in some cases.

http://www.fishbrothers.com/www.fishbrothers.com/Case_Size_and_Shelf_Life.html

Just sayin' !!!!!!


~Martin :cool:


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## akhap (Sep 17, 2012)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> 60 day shelf-life refrigerated fully cooked smoked salmon is *real*, in some cases.
> http://www.fishbrothers.com/www.fishbrothers.com/Case_Size_and_Shelf_Life.html
> Just sayin' !!!!!!
> ~Martin :cool:



Yup, they do... And it is about as far removed from good smoked salmon as it comes.  It is sealed in plastic and pressure-cooked... The result bears little resemblance to fresh smoked salmon.

It is not bad eating, just nothing like the same product.


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## smokinhusker (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm curious if you know how long you smoked each batch to reach the 140 IT?


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## bigfish98 (Sep 19, 2012)

Unfortunately, I didn't pay that much attention.  With my two little boys, it is sometimes hard to keep track of time.  Thank god for the Maverick I have or I wouldn't have known it got to temp.  I did do another batch of salmon last night using the Mr. T Brine in 90 Mins like AKhap says.  I could not tell too much difference between the salmon brined for 90 mins in the Mr. T brine and the one brined for 18 hours.  At least I would call the difference negligible.  I will say that I can see myself using Mr. T's brine more now that I know that it can be used in 90 mins as it does produce a saltier product than AKhap's.  Sometimes I like it saltier, sometimes I don't.  Depends on the day.

Next time, I will test the smoking temp and see if that makes a difference.  I am slowly getting to test all variables in the two methods.  Please bear with me.  I will get there.  No pics of last nights test.  Please put your pitchforks and torches away.  I apologize.  Wife is out of town for the week so I am being Mr. mom. 

Bigfish


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## smokinhusker (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks for the info and I can appreciate the fact that you are Mr. Mom to two little boys!! Great job though.


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## surf citysmoker (Sep 23, 2012)

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Bigfish, I feel ya man!, my wife has been out of town for a week as of tomorrow and won't be home until the 13th of next month. I am Mr. mom to 4 kids 16m, 14f, 8f, 5m. I give my wife props her job is hard, but when I do her job I still find time to smoke meals!. I used my tried and proven method tonight.

3 lbs salmon

cut in strips 1" wide 4" long 1" thick max

Brine is

2 qts water

1 cup kosher salt

1 1/2 cups dark brown sugar

brined for 2 hours

washed and patted dry.

dry rub (lightly dusted is a better term here)

3 TBSP garlic powder

1 TBSP white pepper

1 TBSP black pepper

smoked with alder wood mixed with cherry wood 5/1 ratio approx smoker temp 175 until internal temp 150 for 30 minutes













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There is not one bite left in this house already!!! The kids ate it up before it even cooled down. So the smoked chicken that was for dinner tonight is tomorrows lunch because they made a meal out of the snack salmon I made.

Cheers


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## chef jimmyj (Sep 23, 2012)

Took on a lot of color, looks good...JJ


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## wes w (Jan 17, 2013)

Lots of good info here.   I know this is an old thread.   I'm going to smoke my first salmon Sat.    I'm just thinking out loud here.   I'm going to try the 90 min. brine one.   My question is.  If you smoke at 140 to get your salmon to 140 wouldn't you need to bump the smoker temp up to get the final few degrees.    Some are saying you need to hold the IT at 145 for 30 min. to kill germs?   Wouldn't that totally dry it out?   Maybe I'm confusing myself.  

Chef Jim  aka Your Royal Highness  
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






     Tell me straight up how to finish my salmon.


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## daveomak (Jan 17, 2013)

Wes W said:


> Lots of good info here.   I know this is an old thread.   I'm going to smoke my first salmon Sat.    I'm just thinking out loud here.   I'm going to try the 90 min. brine one.   My question is.  If you smoke at 140 to get your salmon to 140 wouldn't you need to bump the smoker temp up to get the final few degrees.    Some are saying you need to hold the IT at 145 for 30 min. to kill germs?   Wouldn't that totally dry it out?   Maybe I'm confusing myself.
> 
> Chef Jim  aka Your Royal Highness
> 
> ...


Wes, morning....  with a properly cured pellicle, the fish is totally sealed in a protein glaze... It won't dry out.... Dave


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## mr t 59874 (Jan 17, 2013)

DaveOmak said:


> Wes, morning....  with a properly cured pellicle, the fish is totally sealed in a protein glaze... It won't dry out.... Dave


Correct, so many don't understand this.

Wes,

As your salmon reaches 140°, turn the heat down and let carryover take the temp on up, it should then be in the safe zone for the appropriate amount of time before cooling down.

Mr. T


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## appwsmsmkr1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Question(newbie here) did you smoke the salmon on the racks that are in the picture? Or did you use a plank? How did you keep them from sticking or falling apart when you took them off?

Sorry for the stupid questions, the salmon looks delish and I'm putting it on my list.


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## wes w (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr T 59874 said:


> Correct, so many don't understand this.
> 
> Wes,
> 
> ...


Like I said, this is my first time with salmon.  I've grilled it on cedar planks and it totally awesome.  

I just want to make sure I understand what I'm doing before I start.   Thanks for the help and not  making fun of my slow understanding.   My wife ask me to do salmon.  She loves it and I don't want to screw it up!  

Wes


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## mr t 59874 (Jan 17, 2013)

Wes W said:


> Thanks for the help and not  making fun of my slow understanding.
> 
> Wes


Wes, appwsmsmkr1

No making fun here.  We all had our first time.  You will do just fine.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Any further questions, please ask.  There is a lot of good info out there, throwing the following in that should help with questions.  Many like this, in this and other forums.

smkr1, 

It looks like he smoked on the rack, skin side up.  You can oil the racks to help prevent sticking.  I smoke skin side down, just something I have always done.  As you won't be smoking to a high temp sticking is not a problem.  The skin also helps the salmon from falling apart if over cooked. None the less, use a spatula.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/newestpost/122931

Mr T


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## wes w (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks Mr. T    

I was just planning on throwing it on my grate.  I don't have a fancy rack I can take out.  Its got plenty of grease on it to keep it from sticking.    I'm really looking forward to doing this.  I just want to make sure I get all the details down. 

Looks like I may have to shovel out me a path to the smoker and the wood pile.  :-)  Snowing hard here

Thanks

Wes


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## appwsmsmkr1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks everyone!


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## crvtt (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks for doing this bigfish!   I narrowed down my two options to the exact two that you tried then I stumbled across your post.  Looks like I'll be doing the 90 min brine to save myself some time and hassle, thank you!


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## twocubdad (Feb 22, 2013)

A newbie here, got my Smoke Hollow gasser back before the holiday and I've yet to smoke the same thing twice.  Ribs, brisket, shoulder, chicken, jerky, turkey and last weekend, salmon.  I'm very happy with the smoker and food has generally been very good.  For the few problems I've had (chicken was dry, shoulder was tough) I understand  my mistakes and I think I'm learning something.

I used the first brine recipe (salt and sugar for 90 minutes).  I smoked to fillets with a mix of alder and hickory.  On it's lowest setting, the smoker pegged 140d and held that very consistently.  I never opened the cabinet, but recharged the chip pan once.  It ran for a little over three hours, which seems like a long time, based on what others are reporting.  The internal on the thickest part of the fillet was 139 when I pulled it, but it was still a little rare, especially for my wife's liking.  I finished it off for about 10 minutes in the oven and it was fine.  Actually, it was probably fine before, but if mamma ain't happy.....

The fish was really good.  Fairly mild smoke such that the flavor of the fish still came through.  I was very happy with the saltiness.  I haven't tried the saltier brine, but this was dang good to my taste.  Initially, it had a bit of a bitter after taste.  But after a day in the frig (I've been having bagles or eggs and salmon for breakfast every morning 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  ) that disappeared and it was excellent!  I've noticed everything I've smoked benefits from a day in the fridge.    I wasn't crazy with the texture of the fish -- more dense and crumbly than flaky.  When handling it raw, I noticed the flesh was pretty mushy -- my fingers would squish into the meat just trying to pick it up.   It was on sale ($6.99 at the local grocery) so I expect it was probably frozen.

You'll notice from the photo I have the same issue other folks do with a rat in my smoker nibblin' the end of the upper fillet.













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## dirtsailor2003 (Feb 22, 2013)

TwoCubDad said:


> I wasn't crazy with the texture of the fish -- more dense and crumbly than flaky.  When handling it raw, I noticed the flesh was pretty mushy -- my fingers would squish into the meat just trying to pick it up.   It was on sale ($6.99 at the local grocery) so I expect it was probably frozen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of salmon was it, Coho, Pink, Chum, etc??? Was it farmed or wild???


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## twocubdad (Feb 22, 2013)

Ummm, Harris-Teeter?  Vacuum packed in blue plastic?

I honestly didn't pay attention.  Fairly dark pink/reddish flesh rather that a lighter orange.  I think wild-caught.


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## linguica (Feb 22, 2013)

Type and quality of salmon makes the difference between $$$$ and Kitty Oueen.  Pictures below;













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## crvtt (Feb 22, 2013)

Based on the raw and cookd texture you describe along with the low price, I suspect it was farm raised salmon.   Try some wild salmon next time.   Costco has wild salmon in the freezer section, 3 lbs for $27.    I brined and cooked mine basically the same as you and my salmon was nice and flakey.


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## dirtsailor2003 (Feb 22, 2013)

Linguica said:


> Type and quality of salmon makes the difference between $$$$ and Kitty Oueen.  Pictures below;
> 
> 
> 
> ...





crvtt said:


> Based on the raw and cookd texture you describe along with the low price, I suspect it was farm raised salmon. Try some wild salmon next time. Costco has wild salmon in the freezer section, 3 lbs for $27. I brined and cooked mine basically the same as you and my salmon was nice and flakey.


This is where I was going with my first post. The type of Salmon, and whether it was wild or farmed makes a big difference in the end product. I grew up in the West Coast (Left Coast) fishing industry. I'm super spoiled on the freshest fish you can get. I don't order fish or buy fish, unless it's something we can't catch here. I also won't touch a farm raised fish. Unfortunately for most those are the only options. You don't have the opportunity to get the freshest real deal. I recommend looking for wild fish (no matter what type), and if smoking salmon Coho (silver), Sockeye (red salmon or blueback), and King (chinook).


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