# Cure weight/volume calculation.



## Oleg (Oct 26, 2018)

Hi guys, I know I am beating a dead horse here but I have a question about the dosage of meat cure. I just got Celery Juice Powder (my wife does not approve Red 3 food dye in Cure#1)
The question: is recommended dosage for wet cure or wet cure plus meat weight? The package on CJP has a recommendation of "0.45-0.9% based on meat green weight" 100-200ppm.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 26, 2018)

If you are using the Celery Juice Powder as part of a Dry Rub you calculatell based on meat weight only. If you are adding the CJ to a Brine Cure. The calculation is based on the Sum of the green weight of the meat and the weight of the water in the brine. Use 0.7% for 156ppm with most meat. For Belly Bacon, 0.54% will give the recommended 120ppm...JJ


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## smokin peachey (Oct 26, 2018)

Oleg said:


> Hi guys, I know I am beating a dead horse here but I have a question about the dosage of meat cure. I just got Celery Juice Powder (my wife does not approve Red 3 food dye in Cure#1)
> The question: is recommended dosage for wet cure or wet cure plus meat weight? The package on CJP has a recommendation of "0.45-0.9% based on meat green weight" 100-200ppm.



I use 1oz per 10lbs of meat weight when using celery powder from sausage maker as a dry rub. 

Here is a post I currently have going on. Smokin the hams and bacon tomorrow

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/aip-paleo-curing.280484/#post-1885792


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## daveomak (Oct 26, 2018)

Check the amount of FD&C Red #3 in the cure....   AND you are using 0.25% cure based on weight of the meat ....  The dye should be the same regardless of cure#1 or #2.....


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 26, 2018)

smokin peachey said:


> I use 1oz per 10lbs of meat weight when using celery powder.
> 
> Here is a post I currently have going on. Smokin the hams and bacon tomorrow
> 
> https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/aip-paleo-curing.280484/#post-1885792



0.00099% red coloring? Of all the S#!T we breathe, eat, drink and absorb into our skin from things like perfume, antiperspirant, soap, make-up and many more everyday items, a teaspoon of pink cure in 5 pounds of meat is HARDLY anything a person should worry about! That's just hilarious...

I may be wrong but, unless something has changed, there is currently no standardization for the use of Celery Juice. I cant find any info that manufactures formulate to the same standard. The actual amount of Nitrite/Nitrate may vary since the % Nitrite/Nitrate in  a natural product like Celery can vary by plant, soil composition, farm, geographical region, country and time of year grown. Since there is ZERO REGULATION, a general statement like " 1oz per 10 pounds of meat ", can result in a very broad range of cure percentages in the meat and may result in a Safety Hazard.
Always go by the manufactures instructions as they will have tested for the amount of cure in each batch they packaged.
If anyone can find info that all brands of Celery Juice Cure contains X% Nitrite/Nitrate, please let me know
...JJ


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## smokin peachey (Oct 26, 2018)

Label from sausage maker celery powder


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## smokin peachey (Oct 26, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> 0.00099% red coloring? Of all the S#!T we breathe, eat, drink and absorb into our skin from things like perfume, antiperspirant, soap, make-up and many more everyday items, a teaspoon of pink cure in 5 pounds of meat is HARDLY anything a person should worry about! That's just hilarious...
> 
> I may be wrong but, unless something has changed, there is currently no standardization for the use of Celery Juice. I cant find any info that manufactures formulate to the same standard. The actual amount of Nitrite/Nitrate may vary since the % Nitrite/Nitrate in  a natural product like Celery can vary by plant, soil composition, farm, geographical region, country and time of year grown. Since there is ZERO REGULATION, a general statement like " 1oz per 10 pounds of meat ", can result in a very broad range of cure percentages in the meat and may result in a Safety Hazard.
> Always go by the manufactures instructions as they will have tested for the amount of cure in each batch they packaged.
> ...



My wife has extreme food allergy’s so I use celery powder to “cure” meat for her to safety enjoy. 
Yes it might seem like bs to you but it is what has to be done to help her keep from getting sick.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 26, 2018)

Peachey, That is what Sausage Makers CJ says. 

Here is TCM brand sold on Amazon...

Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat. 1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp. For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder. *3 1/2 teaspoons is slightly more than 0.5 ounce for 10 pounds!*

See my point? Going by your general statement of using 1oz for 10 pounds, if I  happen to buy TCM instead of Sausage Maker, I would be adding Double the Cure. Not toxic bit not a good idea and who knows how much stronger or weaker the next Brand of Celery Juice is?...JJ


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## smokin peachey (Oct 26, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> Peachey, That is what Sausage Makers CJ says.
> 
> Here is TCM brand sold on Amazon...
> 
> ...



Edited my post.

Have you used celery powder before? If so I would be interested in your opinion on the results.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 26, 2018)

I apologize my friend for not being more detailed and prefacing my statement. I did NOT direct that statement at your wife and meant no insult. 

I find it amusing that so many people worry about nitrite, or food color or tiny amounts of preservatives in a processed food, but think nothing about the hundreds of chemicals we contact everyday. I saw a young couple come out of a Whole Foods with a basket of Organic, Non-GMO food then LIGHT UP CIGARETTES walking back to their car! 

Food allergies are no joke and an increasing health crisis. Not something I would make fun of...JJ 


smokin peachey said:


> My wife has extreme food allergy’s so I use celery powder to “cure” meat for her to safety enjoy.
> Yes it might seem like bs to you but it is what has to be done to help her keep from getting sick.


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 26, 2018)

My students used Celery powder to make Kielbasa. It worked ok, right color with no distinctive taste. But being a Certified Food Safety instructor I  went into detail on the problems with no standardization or regulation to ensure a consistently safe product. Honestly, it's better to use CJ than do like the guys you see on YouTube curing bacon and sausage with " salt only " and cold or warm smoking. All because of a fear of Nitrite and Nitrate...JJ


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## Oleg (Oct 27, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> The calculation is based on the Sum of the green weight of the meat and the weight of the water in the brine. Use 0.7%



Sounds good Chef Jimmyj, I am also going to use some smaller pieces to expedite the brining/curing


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## Oleg (Oct 27, 2018)

smokin peachey said:


> I use 1oz per 10lbs of meat weight when using celery powder.



This is exactly 0.7%. I assume this should be perfect for dry rub.


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## Oleg (Oct 27, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Check the amount of FD&C Red #3 in the cure



I am on the same page with you Dave. I think even if you put enriched uranium in your cure 0.00099% will not harm you.


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## smokin peachey (Oct 27, 2018)

Oleg said:


> This is exactly 0.7%. I assume this should be perfect for dry rub.



Oleg this is when using celery powder from sausage maker. The label I posted is sausage maker’s celery powder. As JJ mentioned not all celery powder is the same.


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## zwiller (Oct 27, 2018)

You can make your own cure sans color if needed.  Not rocket science. 

University of Nebraska–Lincoln Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources Food Allergy Research and Resource Program
*Erythrosine (FD&C #3)*
Erythrosine is an artificial food color (red). Erythrosine has been implicated as a causative factor in idiosyncratic reactions on only a few occasions. All of the clinical studies that have occurred on erythrosine have been seriously flawed due to one of more of several factors: use of a mixture of colorants or additives, enrollment of patients with severe chronic conditions such as chronic urticaria or asthma, withdrawal of critical medications from these patients prior to challenges, administration of placeboes first in all challenges, and failure to intersperse placeboes throughout the challenge. Thus, the cause-and-effect relationship has not been documented for erythrosine in idiosyncratic reactions.


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## Oleg (Oct 27, 2018)

smokin peachey said:


> As JJ mentioned not all celery powder is the same.



Thank you, didn't think of it. What's your interpretation for the dosage on this product?


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## Oleg (Oct 27, 2018)

zwiller said:


> You can make your own cure sans color if needed. Not rocket science.



Hi Zwiller, it is rocket science for me :) What's your method?


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## chef jimmyj (Oct 27, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> If you are using the Celery Juice Powder as part of a Dry Rub you calculatell based on meat weight only. If you are adding the CJ to a Brine Cure. The calculation is based on the Sum of the green weight of the meat and the weight of the water in the brine. Use 0.7% for 156ppm with most meat. For Belly Bacon, 0.54% will give the recommended 120ppm...JJ



Weigh the meat in Grams then do the math to get the weight of CJP needed. DO NOT use volume as there are no instructions on how much to use...

Example... 1000g meat X .007 = 7g CJP in a Dry Rub Cure that will give 156ppm.

 1000g meat + 1000g water X .007 = 14g CJP in a Brine Cure that will give 156ppm ...JJ


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## PolishDeli (Nov 1, 2018)

Here’s a basic sausage recipe:

1000g Pork
18g Salt
2.5g cure #1
0.0000099*2.5 =  0.000025g = *25µg Red#3*

For comparison:
Eating 25µg of weapons grade uranium will expose you to 2.7µSv of radiation (a dental X-ray exposes you to 90µSv. Average yearly background radiation exposure is about 6200µSv).

25µg of VX nerve agent per Kg of body weight is fatal (i.e., 2.5mg for a 100Kg person).

25µg of LSD will take you on a ride.

I suppose you can make color free Cure#1 by purchasing pure NaNO2 and mixing it with the right amount of salt.
Here is a link for 113g:   
(113/0.0625)-113 = 1695g of salt.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 1, 2018)

If you are going to mess with making cure from salt and pure Nitrite, be vigilant to mix the cure well before AND After each use. Label the container very well and store away from kids and pets...JJ


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## daveomak (Nov 1, 2018)

AND, maybe add some purple dye to it...  Add dye to the sodium nitrite ...   Then maybe you can tell if it is homogenized..
At 6.25% , that would be 65,000 parts / 1,000,000 parts ...  Probably couldn't see it..


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> If you are going to mess with making cure from salt and pure Nitrite, be vigilant to mix the cure well before AND After each use. Label the container very well and store away from kids and pets...JJ



Too much trouble to care for it. Too much risk to mix it wrong and even if you do it right there is always a chance that salt and nitrite separate like one collecting at the bottom of the container.


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

daveomak said:


> Add dye to the sodium nitrite ... Then maybe you can tell if it is homogenized..



LOL!


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

PolishDeli said:


> (113/0.0625)-113 = 1695g of salt.



Thank you for the calculations. The deal with cure#1 is that it's a synthetic product. I am going to take my chances and use CJP for now.


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## smokin peachey (Nov 1, 2018)

Just use the celery powder  it works good.

Here is some bacon I cured with celery powder, unsweetened apple butter and sea salt.


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

smokin peachey said:


> Here is some bacon I cured with celery powder, unsweetened apple butter and sea salt.



Looks good but I am very new to semi-hot smoking and still learning how to properly cure and when cure is necessary. At this point I am only using celery juice powder.
By the way, how long did it take you to cure/brine the bacon?


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## smokin peachey (Nov 1, 2018)

I left it go for 2 weeks. I used the same brand of celery powder that you show in your picture. What questions do you have? What are you wanting to make? My wife has extremely bad food allergies so I have experience and will try to help you.


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

smokin peachey said:


> I left it go for 2 weeks. I used the same brand of celery powder that you show in your picture. What questions do you have? What are you wanting to make? My wife has extremely bad food allergies so I have experience and will try to help you.



I am planning to switch CJP to the brand that Amazon sells for $60/lb. Much better deal. 
I do not have any particular questions but I keep trying different methods and then seek help on this forum if I am not happy with the result. 
I started with 3lb of boneless pork loin today. Pictures attached. Any tips on curing/brining time? Is curing really necessary as these are solid pieces?


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## smokin peachey (Nov 1, 2018)

Oleg said:


> I am planning to switch CJP to the brand that Amazon sells for $60/lb. Much better deal.
> I do not have any particular questions but I keep trying different methods and then seek help on this forum if I am not happy with the result.
> I started with 3lb of boneless pork loin today. Pictures attached. Any tips on curing/brining time? Is curing really necessary as these are solid pieces?



What are you trying to make out of it?


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## Oleg (Nov 1, 2018)

First of all I am planning to experiment with different length of cure/brine time to see if I can tell the difference in taste and appearance. 2.5-3 days for one piece and 6-7 days for the other. I am going to keep it in the smoker at 180-190 until IT reaches 145.


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## DanMcG (Nov 2, 2018)

A little off topic here,  but I think most Canadian suppliers sell #1 without the dye. and then there is also Morton's Tender Quick.


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## zwiller (Nov 2, 2018)

If you want to speed things up just inject.


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## PolishDeli (Nov 2, 2018)

Oleg said:


> Thank you for the calculations. The deal with cure#1 is that it's a synthetic product. I am going to take my chances and use CJP for now.



I’m not necessarily advocating in favor of making your own Cure#1; just  following up on Zwiller’s comment that it is possible.  I personally wouldn’t bother for the same reasons everyone else mentioned. If CJP works for you, and you wife’s health benefits, that’s great.  I’ve never played with it, but probably will try it at some point.

Regarding Cure #1 being synthetic:  I don’t think we have the same definition of that word.  Cure#1 contains a synthetic ingredient:  Red#3. If you think you need to avoid it, its best to avoid it. 
(https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+7974)

NaNO2 on the other hand exists in nature, and it’s the same molecule whether it’s plucked from a celery stock or gown in a lab.  Same with salt: It’s NaCl weather you evaporate sea water, grow it in a lab, or dig it out of the ground. So for me, it comes down to impurities/contaminants:  known, unknown, natural, synthetic, and their relative concentrations.  In CJP, the concentrations of NaNO2, and NaNO3 are unknown.  Trace contaminants would include dirt, fertilizers, and animal poop.  The sea salt it’s mixed with contains unknown concentrations common ocean pollutants like heavy metals and micro plastics along with seaweed, and more animal poop. With Cure #1, the ingredients list is certain, and trace contaminants are mitigated. When it comes to the chemistry of curing meats, I want to control as many variables as possible.

For the record, I’m not knocking “natural” ingredients.  I cook with sea salt, buy organic foods, and so forth.  I’m just commenting on the “natural” label and how, at least to me, it’s sometimes misleading.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 2, 2018)

Hold on now! Poop is Organic, All Natural, contains No Artificial Ingredients, Preservatives, Gluten or GMO's. The primary fertilizer in Organic Vegetables is the Bovine Super Premium. The Rat, Mouse and Insect varieties are present in virtually all processed foods. Mmm, Mmm Good...JJ


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## Oleg (Nov 2, 2018)

Well, guys, let's face it. Some people are allergic to food that contains synthetic preservatives, colorings, or flavors. This means that our bodies can tell the difference between natural and synthetic ingredients even if consumed in very small quantities.


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## nanuk (Nov 5, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> Hold on now! Poop is Organic, All Natural, contains No Artificial Ingredients, Preservatives, Gluten or GMO's. ...JJ



up here, a huge concern now with GMO is the spreading of GMO seeds and contaminating crops due to MANURE Fertilizer.

with horses, 20% or more seed goes through unprocessed.
Cattle is far better but they DO pass whole seeds....
SO, GIGO!!  (Garbage In, Garbage Out)
if animals are eating GMO feed, they are pooping GMO poop!

Just say'n


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## daveomak (Nov 5, 2018)

My buddy used to feed his animals alfalfa seeds in their feed so they would replant his fields as they sauntered about..


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## atomicsmoke (Nov 5, 2018)

daveomak said:


> My buddy used to feed his animals alfalfa seeds in their feed so they would replant his fields as they sauntered about..


Lol


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## nanuk (Nov 5, 2018)

daveomak said:


> My buddy used to feed his animals alfalfa seeds in their feed so they would replant his fields as they sauntered about..



 That works really well!
 You can mix-and-match seeds to reseed the pasture quickly and easily


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 5, 2018)

I'm guessing Ya'll Canadians can feed your cattle Pineapple Cush Seed and get your crop of legal Weed going....JJ


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## nanuk (Nov 6, 2018)

I'm in Saskatchewan, we can only grow 4 plants at at time.....  and we can only buy ONE seed at a time.

crazy rules!


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## indaswamp (Nov 12, 2018)

The cure #1 I use is colored with beet juice. I get it from a local smokehouse here in town. No idea where they get it from though.


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## Oleg (Nov 15, 2018)

indaswamp said:


> The cure #1 I use is colored with beet juice. I get it from a local smokehouse here in town. No idea where they get it from though.



I wish I could find one. Using celery juice is definitely more complicated.


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

If you can't find it, you can make it!
https://www.hgtv.com/design/make-and-celebrate/handmade/the-beet-goes-on


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

Or buy it and add to your own homemade cure...
https://www.seelecttea.com/powdered-food-coloring/1340-beet-red-food-color-powder.html


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## zwiller (Nov 15, 2018)

nanuk said:


> I'm in Saskatchewan, we can only grow 4 plants at at time.....  and we can only buy ONE seed at a time.  crazy rules!



Not at all.  Feminized seed, veg state to a few clones, PK yields 20oz per plant, 5lbs...


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## Oleg (Nov 15, 2018)

Indaswamp and Zwiller, thank you for posting but the links are to food colorings, not cure.


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

That's why I said, "make your own"...
buy food grade sodium nitrite and iodine free salt. 
Cure #1 contains 93.75% table salt and 6.25% sodium nitrite. Mix that up and add the beet powder coloring.


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

Food grade sodium nitrite:
.


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

Here is a step by step on how to make it:
https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-make-curing-salts/

Follow step one only. This is the recipe for cure #1.

Use a VERY ACCURATE scale and be percise with the weights.


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

for some reason, SMF won't allow links to amazon. You can find food grade sodium nitrite there...


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

99.99% pure sodium nitrite...


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

2# of pure sodium nitrite is enough to cure 13,600 pounds of sausage @ 156ppm. It will make 34 pounds of cure #1. You'll have more than enough. And you will not need to add much beet powder at all....just enough to color it and that is all. You do not want to dilute it more than necessary.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 15, 2018)

Wear Gloves while handling and Make sure that any young folks or animals can not access the Cure mix or, especially, the Pure Nitrite. Super Toxic stuff...JJ


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

Thanks for mentioning that jj!!


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

**edit to add:*
the above link says to add 1 ounce of pure sodium nitrite to 1 pound of salt. This is incorrect. That would be a 5.88% Sodium Nitrite.
The correct ratio would be 1 ounce sodium nitrite to 15 ounces of table salt. This will give you the correct percentage of sodium nitrite dilution to 6.25%.

jj, would you check the math on that for me, thanks.


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 15, 2018)

My calculator says...1oz / 16oz = 0.0625 X 100 = 6.25% The total weight of the mix is 17 ounces. How did you get 5.88%?...JJ


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## daveomak (Nov 15, 2018)

1 oz. added to 16 oz. = 17 oz.   1 / 17 = 0.0588 ...  

1 oz needs to be added to 15 oz. of salt....  1 / 16 = 0.0625...


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

Dave's got it.

Thanks Dave...


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## zwiller (Nov 15, 2018)

Hold on a moment.  Let's recap, shall we?  Wife has an allergic reaction to red food coloring so instead of using store bought cure#1, you want to make your own, don't know how, have the precision, and the result of preparing it incorrectly is death.   Seems rational...


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## chef jimmyj (Nov 15, 2018)

daveomak said:


> 1 oz. added to 16 oz. = 17 oz.   1 / 17 = 0.0588 ...
> 
> 1 oz needs to be added to 15 oz. of salt....  1 / 16 = 0.0625...



I see it...I believe it...But it never looks right. 
Thanks Dave, I need to commit this to memory...JJ


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## daveomak (Nov 15, 2018)

Another way to look at it is....
You just put 1 gram. of pure nitrite into 15 grams. of pure salt....
1 gram is 1,000 mgs...    15 grams is 15,000 mgs...  total 16,000 mgs of stuff....
1000 / 16000 = 0.0625

The method noted on another post is wrong.....  One more reason NOT to believe stuff you get on the web, forums or blogs..
Re-figure stuff so you know what's correct...


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## indaswamp (Nov 15, 2018)

chef jimmyj said:


> I see it...I believe it...But it never looks right.
> Thanks Dave, I need to commit this to memory...JJ



It's a common mistake. I almost missed it....


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