# Cold smoke, too much smoke?



## solman

I'm setting up my 40" inch propane masterbuilt to cold smoke some pork belly bacon. I have a tube smoker housed in a separate box outside of the masterbuilt, and there's a 6" diameter vent hose that connects the two. Ambient temperature was 55F, smoker temperature got as high as 66F.

There's plenty of smoke blowing out the upper back vent of the masterbuilt, and when i opened the main compartment door there was literally a solid wall of smoke. So much smoke that i could barely see inside. 

So with all that said, am i getting too much smoke? I put a computer fan on the upper back vent, and it helped clear up some smoke inside so when i opened the door again the smoke was only about half as thick.


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## dernektambura

Yes..  to much smoke... you should be able easily to see through the smoke..


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## bregent

The important thing is that the smoke is moving.  Sounds like you are still getting plenty of smoke with the fan, so I would probably go that route. How long are you planning? Are you doing multiple smoke/rests?


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## dernektambura

to much thick smoke means to much carbon resulting in harsh and bitter taste..


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## pc farmer

I feel a tube is too much for a MES, I use a tray in mine.


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## solman

I'm planning to do 8 hour each day over 3 days. This test run was done using pellets. I plan to use coarse dust during the actual cold smoke. Dust should produce less dense smoke.

Another thing i can do is crack open the main compartment of the masterbuilt if I choose not to use a fan, that should still help get the air flowing.

I'll do another test run with coarse dust and see how it goes.  So, wall of smoke is bad. Got it.


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## dernektambura

Just keep in mind that smoke and meat doesn work on reciprocating basis..  for example.   it's not same 3 days x 8 hrs smoke as 6 days x 4hrs smoke...  it's always better to smoke shorter periods of hours and more days... you need to give time for smoke flavour to penetrate in to meat and smoke flavor penetration is happening only during no smoke rest time...


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## Winterrider

Could do as others have in the past. Only fill the tube so it's 1/2 Full when its lying down.  Cuts your smoke in half.


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## indaswamp

dernektambura said:


> to much thick smoke means to much carbon resulting in harsh and bitter taste..


Keep preachin Brother.....amen.


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## Bearcarver

pc farmer said:


> I feel a tube is too much for a MES, I use a tray in mine.



X2---I played the games with my tube smokers, and if you are at low altitude like I am, a tube puts out too much smoke for an MES Unit, even if you fill it laying on its side, standing up, or doing a Dance while filling it.
Get an AMNPS, learn to light it properly, and Smoke happily ever after.
The Tube was designed for bigger smokers & for guys smoking at high altitudes.
And remember;
Light Smoked for many hours is a good thing, but heavy dense smoke for even a short time can be a bad thing!

Bear


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## indaswamp

solman said:


> I'm planning to do 8 hour each day over 3 days. This test run was done using pellets. I plan to use coarse dust during the actual cold smoke. Dust should produce less dense smoke.
> 
> Another thing i can do is crack open the main compartment of the masterbuilt if I choose not to use a fan, that should still help get the air flowing.
> 
> I'll do another test run with coarse dust and see how it goes.  So, wall of smoke is bad. Got it.


Use dust....and pack it tight. Pellets put out too much white smoke for cold smoking.


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## dernektambura

indaswamp said:


> Keep preachin Brother.....amen.


I hate when doing something new and I get 99% info and with chit luck I screw up on one percent missed  info no one thought it's important..  lol...


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## dernektambura

indaswamp said:


> Use dust....and pack it tight. Pellets put out too much white smoke for cold smoking.


Now, I'll give you family tradition secret...tp me it doesnt really matter if it's dust, pellets or woodchunks... you have to tend and watch that smoking business.. . that's why I never smoke meat without proper fuel to get me going too... beer, moonshine, vine... doesn't mater... it's cold outside and if I am doing cold smoking I don't want to freeze to death... right... . lol...


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## solman

I weighed out how many pellets fit into my tube, and put the same weight of dust into the tube which filled the tube about halfway. 

With dust it's significantly less smoke, and actually thin blue smoke. It smells a lot better too. I opened the main compartment and there's a slight haze of smoke compared to the pellets solid wall of white smoke. I'll never use pellets again. Dust from now on.


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## indaswamp

solman said:


> I weighed out how many pellets fit into my tube, and put the same weight of dust into the tube which filled the tube about halfway.
> 
> With dust it's significantly less smoke, and actually thin blue smoke. It smells a lot better too. I opened the main compartment and there's a slight haze of smoke compared to the pellets solid wall of white smoke. I'll never use pellets again. Dust from now on.


<thumbs up> Dust is the ticket for cold smokes IMO.....especially for LOOONG cold smokes...you'll also find it burns cooler than pellets.
I give credit to Dave....he credits Mr. T....


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## Bearcarver

LOL---Same thing I've had for 8 years with my AMNPS.
I use Dust for things I smoke at under approx' 225°, and Pellets for things I smoke at over 225°.
I started that mainly because 8 years ago, anything smoked with Dust in an AMNS at over 225° would cross rows, light up & the whole thing would burn out within an hour or so. That's why Todd invented the AMNPS, with the double interior walls.
Dust has always burned cooler, which is why I always use it for Cheese.
Not a new discovery for an AMNPS.
Maybe it is for a Tube, but old hat for an AMNPS.

Just because a few just discovered something old, doesn't make it a new discovery.


Bear


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## chef jimmyj

dernektambura said:


> Just keep in mind that smoke and meat doesn work on reciprocating basis..  for example.   it's not same 3 days x 8 hrs smoke as 6 days x 4hrs smoke...  it's always better to smoke shorter periods of hours and more days... you need to give time for smoke flavour to penetrate in to meat and smoke flavor penetration is happening only during no smoke rest time...



Not a Challenge, I'm just interested in learning...l have toured a few Slaughter House/Butcher operations that Cure and Smoke meats and sausage,  studied the Southern Smoking Technique for Country Bacon and Hams and the recent Benton's Bacon Video I posted all run Smoke Continously for 24 hours to 7 days.
Is your info anecdotal, as so many techniques are or do you have studies on smoke penetration you can recommend I read. Thanks...JJ


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## indaswamp

chef jimmyj said:


> Not a Challenge, I'm just interested in learning...l have toured a few Slaughter House/Butcher operations that Cure and Smoke meats and sausage,  studied the Southern Smoking Technique for Country Bacon and Hams and the recent Benton's Bacon Video I posted all run Smoke Continously for 24 hours to 7 days.
> Is your info anecdotal, as so many techniques are or do you have studies on smoke penetration you can recommend I read. Thanks...JJ


I would think that temperature in the smokehouse and temperature/humidity where the meat is stored between smokes plays an important role....just like it does in dry curing.....


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## indaswamp

Bearcarver said:


> LOL---Same thing I've had for 8 years with my AMNPS.
> I use Dust for things I smoke at under approx' 225°, and Pellets for things I smoke at over 225°.
> I started that mainly because 8 years ago, anything smoked with Dust in an AMNS at over 225° would cross rows, light up & the whole thing would burn out within an hour or so. That's why Todd invented the AMNPS, with the double interior walls.
> Dust has always burned cooler, which is why I always use it for Cheese.
> Not a new discovery for an AMNPS.
> Maybe it is for a Tube, but old hat for an AMNPS.
> 
> Just because a few just discovered something old, doesn't make it a new discovery.
> 
> 
> Bear


It's a new discovery relative to using the Oval or the round tube to burn dust, since Todd plainly states in the directions that the tube is for burning pellets. At least to me... Chopsaw was the first one I saw post about it, and this was after I tried it...I had not seen his thread on it and started another one.


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## chef jimmyj

I know Bacon and Country Hams were Cold Smoked, continuously, around 80°, depending on indoor or outdoor smoking rooms but always less than 120°F. Sausage and City Hams, at around 170 to an IT of 150°F. The Cold Smoked meats were stored at 55°F. Those rooms were a thing of beauty...JJ


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## indaswamp

I know the old timers @ the rural life museum talk about continuous smoke was mainly to keep the flies and bug off the meat and out of the smokehouse while the meat dried. They say continuous smoke is not necessary for flavor...the smoke needs time to travel through the meat-just like salt and sugar.....

I now have more questions I can ask them the next time I see them.


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## chef jimmyj

Interesting...May be one of those Smoking Rules passed down. Each generation did it because that's the way they were taught.
But...They never asked, Why? 
What started out, To Control Flies. Turns into the Best and Only way to do it...JJ


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## indaswamp

chef jimmyj said:


> Interesting...May be one of those Smoking Rules passed down. Each generation did it because that's the way they were taught.
> But...They never asked, Why?
> What started out, To Control Flies. Turns into the Best and Only way to do it...JJ


Found this Chef jj...good read:
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/fish/processing/smoking



> All Polish, German, Russian or Lithuanian technology books about smoking agree that cold smoke should be applied below 72° F (22° C). Occasionally a book calls for 77° F (25° C). Old German books specify temperature of cold smoke as 64° F (18° C) or lower. Any recipe that calls for cold smoke higher than 85° F (30° C) makes little sense, as _at this temperature proteins coagulate and the texture of the meat changes. The meat gets cooked._ The surface area will harden preventing moisture removal and the product will rot inside. This hardened ring will also slow down smoke penetration.
> 
> To summarize, _the purpose of cold smoking was to dry meats. The product was drying out and the smoke happened to be there_. Preservation was on people’s mind and not creating cold smoked flavor.


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## indaswamp

Found this...


> A darker color develops when the smoking time is increased and the thicker smoke is applied. Increasing the smoking time and applying the thinner smoke will produce the same results as decreasing the smoking time and applying the denser smoke.


Which is why I do not want thick white smoke for long cold smokes....


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## Bearcarver

indaswamp said:


> It's a new discovery relative to using the Oval or the round tube to burn dust, since Todd plainly states in the directions that the tube is for burning pellets. At least to me... Chopsaw was the first one I saw post about it, and this was after I tried it...I had not seen his thread on it and started another one.




Ok---With the tube, it's new & the first one I noticed do it was Chopsaw.
However, Todd said the tubes aren't made for dust, and they actually don't work with what I consider as dust.
The stuff you guys are turning pellets into isn't dust in my book. It's more of "Granules", because actual Dust would fall through the perforations in the tube.
I would think the kind of Heavy granules you guys end up with from pellets could be gotten from other ways.
Thinking back of all the machines in my Cabinet Shop, I would think the stuff that came from some of them could work in the Tube, such as these possibilities, I would try if I was using a Tube:
Chips & shavings from My Shaper, Jointer, and Planer.
Granules from My Drill Press & Horizontal Boring Machine.
That's about it---The stuff from my all of my Saws & Sanders was too fine.

Bear


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## indaswamp

One of the reasons why I call it "Dave's Coarse pellet dust" for lack of a better name.....to differentiate between that and fine dust.


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## indaswamp

Bearcarver said:


> I would think the kind of Heavy granules you guys end up with from pellets could be gotten from other ways.


This might be opening a can of worms, but I have read that you actually do not want kiln dried wood for smoking meat. The flavor compounds in wood get broken down substantially in the kiln. I have no way to verify if this is true, or if it was just a sales pitch for a pellet company......


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## solman

what i don't understand is that sawdust for smoking is much more expensive than pellets. i would think pellets would be more expensive due to the extra steps involved, but it's the other way around.

A-MAZE-N-DUST SPECIALTY - 4LB
$17.99 or $4.49/lb

A-MAZE-N-PELLETS SPECIALTY - 20LB
$29.99 or $1.49/lb

A-MAZE-N-PELLETS STANDARD - 20LB
$24.99 or $1.25/lb


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## indaswamp

solman said:


> what i don't understand is that sawdust for smoking is much more expensive than pellets. i would think pellets would be more expensive due to the extra steps involved, but it's the other way around.
> 
> A-MAZE-N-DUST SPECIALTY - 4LB
> $17.99 or $4.49/lb
> 
> A-MAZE-N-PELLETS SPECIALTY - 20LB
> $29.99 or $1.49/lb
> 
> A-MAZE-N-PELLETS STANDARD - 20LB
> $24.99 or $1.25/lb


Which is the reason why Dave started making dust from pellets.......


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## Bearcarver

indaswamp said:


> This might be opening a can of worms, but I have read that you actually do not want kiln dried wood for smoking meat. The flavor compounds in wood get broken down substantially in the kiln. I have no way to verify if this is true, or if it was just a sales pitch for a pellet company......



I call BS on that one.
Did you read that in "Mad" magazine?
LOL---Maybe sales pitch for Pellet sales.

Bear




solman said:


> what i don't understand is that sawdust for smoking is much more expensive than pellets. i would think pellets would be more expensive due to the extra steps involved, but it's the other way around.
> 
> A-MAZE-N-DUST SPECIALTY - 4LB
> $17.99 or $4.49/lb
> 
> A-MAZE-N-PELLETS SPECIALTY - 20LB
> $29.99 or $1.49/lb
> 
> A-MAZE-N-PELLETS STANDARD - 20LB
> $24.99 or $1.25/lb




LOL---I never figured that one out either.
Let me know if you do.

Bear


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## indaswamp

Bearcarver said:


> I call BS on that one.
> Did you read that in "Mad" magazine?
> LOL---Maybe sales pitch for Pellet sales.
> 
> Bear





> Prof. Greg Blonder says "Wood containing a bit of moisture creates a bit of steam during combustion, which causes smoke particles to clump together. And larger particles are less likely to flow around the meat so they stick more easily. Plus the water changes the nitrate/nitrogen ratio a bit, which affects the smoke ring, which has no flavor but adds eye appeal. The ring is typically larger with kiln dried wood. Kiln dried is considered to taste smokier." Remember, smokier is not always better.


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## Bearcarver

I disagree with "Smokier is not better".
Creosote is never better, but Smokier is always better, unless you get to the point of "Too Smoky", especially with Mesquite or my favorite "Hickory". I guess it's possible to get it too smoky with strong woods, but not because it was Kilned.

And now Blonder wants to Steam Smoke, so I guess we should all start soaking our Chips & Chunks before smoking, because Blonder says Kiln dried is too dry to smoke with.  Excuse me---"Professor" Blonder.
LOL---He probably has a side job---Selling Smoking Pellets.

Bear


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## dernektambura

chef jimmyj said:


> Not a Challenge, I'm just interested in learning...l have toured a few Slaughter House/Butcher operations that Cure and Smoke meats and sausage,  studied the Southern Smoking Technique for Country Bacon and Hams and the recent Benton's Bacon Video I posted all run Smoke Continously for 24 hours to 7 days.
> Is your info anecdotal, as so many techniques are or do you have studies on smoke penetration you can recommend I read. Thanks...JJ


I am no expert by any means and my chemistry knowledge is limited to very basic but I been "trailing" my grandpa old school smoking technique since my childhod and continued to learn through my adulthood... In short, this is what I learned about duration and  smoke density...
after initial curing meat surface becomes porous becouse of salt is more concentrated on surface and creates more air pockets.   ..  it's like a web of microscopic air pockets created by salt osmosis... In the begining, this air web are more dense close to surface and less in meat interior due to time needed for salt to penetrate, withdraw water and create air pockets... as time goes by, meat is drying, shrinks, meat becomes more dense and microscopic air pockets slowly disappear....now back to smoke time and smoke density...
at the beginning of smoking, surface air pockets are filled with smoke, smoke is loaded with chemicals compounds which starts to deposit inside microscopic air pockets...  once these air pockets are filled with after burn chemical compounds further smoking is waste of time becouse chemicals compounds deposited inside close to surface air pockets need time to penetrate and populate next layer of meat air pockets. . it's like time delay chain reaction... that's why is smoking time on/time off very important to allow time delay chain reaction to happen....once smoking is done, over drying period of time, chemical compounds will work its way deeper and populate rest of the interior air pocket made by salt reverse osmosis and drying process...
White, thick dense smoke means uncompleted burn and it is loaded with carbon, carbon deposits itself in air pockets and over period of time work its way deeper resulting in harsh, bitter meat taste...
To avoid confusion, I am talking about smoking at very low temperatures in DIY situation. . I could only suspect that large volume smoked meat producers go different route to minimize cost and time knowing that volume of product in store will sell fast and majority of people are happy to occasionally have a slice of tasty meat with smoke after taste. . .
Again, I am no expert by any means, just sharing my limited knowledge....
I hope all this make sense written in my limited english as a second language...


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## zwiller

Good thread.  Not sure what to call it, maybe DD (Dave's Dust) or DIYD, but I plan to make some and do a shoot out with Todd's real dust.  I will say that the real dust is REALLY subtle inside the smoker.  TBS is nearly invisible (NIBS) LOL.  I would think a MES with mailbox mod using real dust might generate barely any flavor at all.  As of late, my plan is to use DIYD for hot smokes and real dust for cold smokes.  The real dust is nothing like I've generated wooddorking.  It's fibrous.  I suspect it made by shredding.  I am all for using what is on hand but the lumber guys I knew always sprayed for bugs and fungus.   

I would guess the reason the dust costs more is the size/volume.  1 pound of dust is like same size 5lbs bag of pellets.


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## indaswamp

I forgot about the sprays on kiln dried lumber.....


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## Bearcarver

None of my FASS2S Hardwood ever came in with Bark on it.
I also never saw any bark in the Kilns, which would be where any sprays would still be on the wood.

Bear


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## dernektambura

indaswamp said:


> I forgot about the sprays on kiln dried lumber.....


there os no way to get comercial


indaswamp said:


> I forgot about the sprays on kiln dried lumber.....


I guess there is no way to avoid "icing on cake" unless you bring tree down by yourself and air dried.....it's price we pay for urbanization.... lol...


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## chef jimmyj

GREAT explanation Dernek! Your info makes sense. It comes back to Smoking Meat is an Art, with a bit of Science to help us get Consistency. Line up 10 samples of 1" Thick, Apple Wood Smoked Bacon. Cured 7 days with Salt, Sugar and Cure #1, only, and you got TEN DIFFERENT FLAVORS OF BACON. It's the Artisan that varies Smoke Time, Rest or No Rest during 72 hours of Smoking, More or less Sugar and/or Salt used and so forth. They all are GREAT but personal taste identifies which one is BEST. Thank you very much for taking the time to elaborate...JJ


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## indaswamp

chef jimmyj said:


> GREAT explanation Dernek! Your info makes sense. It comes back to Smoking Meat is an Art, with a bit of Science to help us get Consistency. Line up 10 samples of 1" Thick, Apple Wood Smoked Bacon. Cured 7 days with Salt, Sugar and Cure #1, only, and you got TEN DIFFERENT FLAVORS OF BACON. It's the Artisan that varies Smoke Time, Rest or No Rest during 72 hours of Smoking, More or less Sugar and/or Salt used and so forth. They all are GREAT but personal taste identifies which one is BEST. Thank you very much for taking the time to elaborate...JJ


Chef jj, Looking back at the Benton's video, the 3 days continuous smoke may be a trade off they made in order to streamline large scale production...Instead of smoking for 7 days, for 12 hours a day....they smoke 3 days continuous then rest for 4. This saves them from having to move the heavy bacon racks in and out of the smoker 14 times...that's a lot of man hours added up.....


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## Bearcarver

I don't know where you guys get bugs in your Kiln Dried Woods.
Like I said earlier, My Hardwoods "FASS2S" never came in with bark on it, and they were all subjected to too high a heat in the Kiln for any bugs to survive. *They didn't need to be chemically treated.*
And what makes "Air Dried" wood chemical free? How about the Wood used to make pellets? None of that was sprayed for bugs & fungus?

No Chemicals are used in Kilns in the United States.

In Short---There is ZERO Chemicals on or in Hardwood scraps from a Cabinet Shop.

Bear


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## dernektambura

chef jimmyj said:


> GREAT explanation Dernek! Your info makes sense. It comes back to Smoking Meat is an Art, with a bit of Science to help us get Consistency. Line up 10 samples of 1" Thick, Apple Wood Smoked Bacon. Cured 7 days with Salt, Sugar and Cure #1, only, and you got TEN DIFFERENT FLAVORS OF BACON. It's the Artisan that varies Smoke Time, Rest or No Rest during 72 hours of Smoking, More or less Sugar and/or Salt used and so forth. They all are GREAT but personal taste identifies which one is BEST. Thank you very much for taking the time to elaborate...JJ


Now when you mentioned more or less sugar.... back in days, when my job as preteen and teen was to tend grandpas smoked meat burning smoke, I learn from my grampa hero that sugar actually preserve natural redness of meat...  he never used prague cure or anything commercial,.... he used natural SaltPeter.....Now, nova days, in part, we use nitrate and nitrites to preserve natural meat colour and I  am still confused about sugar part.. . lol. .


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## dernektambura

Bearcarver said:


> I don't know where you guys get bugs in your Kiln Dried Woods.
> Like I said earlier, My Hardwoods "FASS2S" never came in with bark on it, and they were all subjected to too high a heat in the Kiln for any bugs to survive. *They didn't need to be chemically treated.*
> And what makes "Air Dried" wood chemical free? How about the Wood used to make pellets? None of that was sprayed for bugs & fungus?
> 
> In Short---There is ZERO Chemicals on or in Hardwood scraps from a Cabinet Shop.
> 
> Bear


Bottom line: bugs or no bugs they all get burnt and smoked adding flavour to smoked meat...  dust to dust , ash to ash..  not a big deal..  lol...


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## chopsaw

Bearcarver said:


> -There is ZERO Chemicals on or in Hardwood scraps from a Cabinet Shop.


Any preventative spray is long gone buy the time it reaches the consumer .


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## dernektambura

indaswamp said:


> Chef jj, Looking back at the Benton's video, the 3 days continuous smoke may be a trade off they made in order to streamline large scale production...Instead of smoking for 7 days, for 12 hours a day....they smoke 3 days continuous then rest for 4. This saves them from having to move the heavy bacon racks in and out of the smoker 14 times...that's a lot of man hours added up.....


Let me play devils advocate for second... what if they use liquid smoke injection and afterwards at slightly higer smoke temperature seal meat surface and let liquid smoke to work its way in in time from shipping to consumer selling  ..


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## zwiller

@Bearcarver I think for me it's because the mill is small, so less product movement/logs laying around.  You make a good point about the bark though...  Never thought of that.  Funny story (not really), I need to move a few thousand BF now that the FIL house is getting sold!


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## chopsaw

Any spray was only on the surface . By the time it's ripped and planed one side ,,,, it's gone , or was never there in the first place .


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## indaswamp

dernektambura said:


> Let me play devils advocate for second... what if they use liquid smoke injection and afterwards at slightly higer smoke temperature seal meat surface and let liquid smoke to work its way in in time from shipping to consumer selling  ..


No, they show the process step by step in the video...no injections...
Though most commercial bacon sold is pumped, then cooked via. a shower of hot water and liquid smoke...


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