# Increasing heat for a gas grill



## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

There are 225 pin holes in the burners in my gas grill. But it takes too long to reach 450 deg and opening the top loses 100 deg immediately.

Thinking about drilling out the pin holes to increase gas flow. What think?

The grill uses natural gas from the city line.


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## schlotz (Aug 25, 2021)

Were the grill's orifices swapped out to NG versions from LP or did the grill come correctly plumbed for NG?  Same question for the regulator?


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

schlotz said:


> Were the grill's orifices swapped out to NG versions from LP or did the grill come correctly plumbed for NG?  Same question for the regulator?


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

Hardware was substituted for the comventional propane setup. I think including the regulator but I cant remember. But probably since there was a second kit for NG.


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## bregent (Aug 25, 2021)

Even with the conversion to NG, the grill probably will never get as hot as the propane version.   The Weber NG and Propane grills of the same model are rated at the same BTU.  But I have the factory delivered NG version and it doesn't get as hot as fast as my friends propane version. 

When I need it to get hotter for when I use a griddle, I remove the flavorizors.


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## Colin1230 (Aug 25, 2021)

That has been my experience also.


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

I appreciate your help but it doesn't answer my inquiry. It's an engineering question.


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## JJS (Aug 25, 2021)

I wouldn’t just go drilling more holes in the burner, they were engineered to be what they are and it doesn’t take much drilling for things to go south. Converting to LP could help with this issue but so would buying a higher BTU natural gas grill.

As for dropping 100deg instantly is that at the grate level or are you reading the temp in the lid?


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

JJS said:


> I wouldn’t just go drilling more holes in the burner, they were engineered to be what they are and it doesn’t take much drilling for things to go south. Converting to LP could help with this issue but so would buying a higher BTU natural gas grill.
> 
> As for dropping 100deg instantly is that at the grate level or are you reading the temp in the lid?



I acknowledge the original design. And its a scary idea to alter it.  At the lid.


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## jkc64 (Aug 25, 2021)

I bought GrillGrates for my LPG grill and it made a huge difference in surface temp. https://www.grillgrate.com/


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

jkc64 said:


> I bought GrillGrates for my LPG grill and it made a huge difference in surface temp. https://www.grillgrate.com/



There's no room for those in my unit.


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## JJS (Aug 25, 2021)

I would check the temp at the grate level, you may be worrying about a problem that isn’t that big of a deal in reality.
As far as modifying the existing burners I wouldn’t modify them in any way, they were engineered to be exactly what they are, making bigger holes is probably not the answer. The  orifices in the gas controls (knobs) would have to be modified to allow more gas into the burner, the air inlet may need to be modified to get enough air for more gas etc.


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

JJS said:


> I would check the temp at the grate level, you may be worrying about a problem that isn’t that big of a deal in reality.
> As far as modifying the existing burners I wouldn’t modify them in any way, they were engineered to be exactly what they are, making bigger holes is probably not the answer. The  orifices in the gas controls (knobs) would have to be modified to allow more gas into the burner, the air inlet may need to be modified to get enough air for more gas etc.



Temp at grate. Thats good thinking. Probably exaggerated at the lid. Agree prob have to reverse-engineer more than the burner. Anyone need a used grill?


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## Fueling Around (Aug 25, 2021)

To your original thought of drilling more holes, no it will not increase the heat and may make the burn worse and lower temperature.
Increasing temperature with natural gas requires forced air induction.


pmarc said:


> ...
> and opening the top loses 100 deg immediately.
> ...


Don't open the top until you are ready to plop the food quickly.  I do that with my kettle as it loses all dome temp.  Luckily with lump charcoal (very hot)  it regains heat quickly.


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> To your original thought of drilling more holes, no it will not increase the heat and may make the burn worse and lower temperature.
> Increasing temperature with natural gas requires forced air induction.
> Don't open the top until you are ready to plop the food quickly.  I do that with my kettle as it loses all dome temp.  Luckily with lump charcoal (very hot)  it regains heat quickly.


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## pmarc (Aug 25, 2021)

Whats a high BTU gas grill that's smaller than the Webber Genesis line?  I dont need storage, big grilling surface, nor work space. Money not an issue.


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## bill1 (Aug 26, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Whats a high BTU gas grill that's smaller than the Webber Genesis line?  I dont need storage, big grilling surface, nor work space. Money not an issue.


I think what makes the Weber Genesis line unique is the BTU-per-bottom-grill-area is the highest.  That watt-per-area (heat flux) number is what you want if you want high temp quickly. 
So if cost is no object, what's wrong with a Genesis II  S-310? It comes in a NG version, ready to go. There's no storage, and without the side shelves, it's only ~32" wide.


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## zwiller (Aug 26, 2021)

No need to DIY, see if you can find a sear burner that fits your grill.  Was a night and day difference for my Jenn Air.


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

bill1 said:


> I think what makes the Weber Genesis line unique is the BTU-per-bottom-grill-area is the highest.  That watt-per-area (heat flux) number is what you want if you want high temp quickly.
> So if cost is no object, what's wrong with a Genesis II  S-310? It comes in a NG version, ready to go. There's no storage, and without the side shelves, it's only ~32" wide.


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

Nope. Nothing will fit. I have a Fuego. Nice design, simple, very small footprint. But the cook time is waaay too long.  Zwiller, thanx for that Weber spec and the BBQ thermodynamics. LOL ... BTW is it actually possible to find  watt-per-area (heat flux) numbers for grills? Is this metric better than BTU?


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## zwiller (Aug 26, 2021)

That stinks.  I'll let you guys geek out on the BTU per inch2 but seriously, high grill heat is a must.  Steaks are like 4m for us.  Crazy good sears and flavor is fantastic.  Time saver sure but the results are at least 2-3 levels above your typical grill.  No way I will ever go without a sear burner.  Good luck!


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## bregent (Aug 26, 2021)

pmarc said:


> I appreciate your help but it doesn't answer my inquiry. It's an engineering question.



Sorry, forgot to address that. The gas flow is limited by the orifice and regulator, not the burners. Drilling out the burners will change the flame pattern, but not increase the BTU by any noticeable amount.

Unfortunately, even with the sear burner on my Weber NG, I can't get a very good sear for steak. I use charcoal or a cast iron pan when I need that much heat.


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## schlotz (Aug 26, 2021)

One cubic foot of propane = 2,516 BTUs compared to one cubic foot of natural gas = 1,030 BTUs. Propane contains more than twice the energy of natural gas. Ergo why the orifices for propane have smaller openings, but even with that, you will find grills set for LP usually run hotter then the same that are set for NG.


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

schlotz said:


> One cubic foot of propane = 2,516 BTUs compared to one cubic foot of natural gas = 1,030 BTUs. Propane contains more than twice the energy of natural gas. Ergo why the orifices for propane have smaller openings, but even with that, you will find grills set for LP usually run hotter then the same that are set for NG.



That's a stunning fact.  I see the*  Genesis® II S-310 uses NG at 39,000 BTU per hr. 
Not the best metric? But a heck of a lot better than the 21,000 Btu per hr of the Fuego. And I bet the Fuego's 21,000 isn't for NG. This is the problem. But I ain't gonna undo the 50' ng pipe I ran to my deck! Can you imagine its likely I'm running 60% less than 21,000 !  A match would be better. At least I won't have to lie about why I'm selling it. Use propane is my motto. And most people will.*


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## schlotz (Aug 26, 2021)

My bet is they aren't going to provide much more than what they (Weber) already have:  i.e.  BTU-per-hour


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## zwiller (Aug 26, 2021)

I thought I was pretty well versed in this stuff due to homebrewing but no idea propane was 2x hotter than NG.


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

schlotz said:


> My bet is they aren't going to provide much more than what they already have:  i.e.  BTU-per-hour



Who's "they" ??


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## schlotz (Aug 26, 2021)

Weber


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

A friend just told me he fixed 2 grills. By drilling out the choke points, not the burners. One grill a double burner, the other with 10 burners. But he started with propane lines on both. Mine is the ng conversion kit. So I wonder if it's now max'd out for the burners or if I can drill out all brass orifices even more. Prob have to drill out the bruner holes, too. Using proportions for hole size as a guide.


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## bill1 (Aug 26, 2021)

pmarc said:


> ... BTW is it actually possible to find  watt-per-area (heat flux) numbers for grills? Is this metric better than BTU?


Take the published BTU per hour value.  Divide by the area of the lowest (largest) grate/grill.  You want that number to be big.  (If you want high temps and quick warm-up.) 

You can use BTU/h or watts.  You can use square inches or acres.  Just be consistent in your use of units.   

Yes, heat flux is important.  If you kept the lid open (open flame) it's _*all *_that counts.  With the lid closed, the raw power (BTU/h) matters too.  

It's like buying a car by horsepower because you want to accelerate fast.  What's more important is power-per-weight ratio.  But that hasn't really caught on, has it?


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## pmarc (Aug 26, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Take the published BTU per hour value.  Divide by the area of the lowest (largest) grate/grill.  You want that number to be big.  (If you want high temps and quick warm-up.)
> 
> You can use BTU/h or watts.  You can use square inches or acres.  Just be consistent in your use of units.
> 
> ...



That would be...   [ 20,000 BTU/hr / 225 sq inches ] = 89     Currently.     How does this guide me to how  big to drill the burner holes?


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## bill1 (Aug 26, 2021)

pmarc said:


> *...But I ain't gonna undo the 50' ng pipe I ran to my deck...*


If you're not moving your grill around, natural gas is a great convenience.  Ask my wife if she'd like to be changing out propane bottles on her kitchen stove.  
And please don't drill out anything unless you TOTALLY understand what you're doing, including elementary thermodynamics and fluid mechanics.  An orifice is a key safety feature...it is not a choke point to be casually enlarged.


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## JJS (Aug 27, 2021)

pmarc said:


> That would be...   [ 20,000 BTU/hr / 225 sq inches ] = 89     Currently.     How does this guide me to how  big to drill the burner holes?



Since it appears we can’t talk you out of this project I have attached the orifice size chart, you need to remove the orifice in each burner control and look for the number stamped on it, this will give you your starting point, once you have that info you then need to search for an orifice drill set and pin vise.
The problems come in when you don’t get the orifice size perfectly matched to the burner holes and fire either  comes rolling out the back of the burner or you have super long yellow flames that burn like crap and produce CO and soot.

I would keep this grill as far as possible from anything flammable.
* if you do cause property damage and the insurance company investigation proves you DIYd your grill they will likely tell you to pound sand on your claim 

good luck




			https://ssl.ca/wp-content/themes/sinclair-supply/pdf/Gas-Orifice-Capacity-Chart.pdf


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## pmarc (Aug 27, 2021)

JJS said:


> Since it appears we can’t talk you out of this project I have attached the orifice size chart, you need to remove the orifice in each burner control and look for the number stamped on it, this will give you your starting point, once you have that info you then need to search for an orifice drill set and pin vise.
> The problems come in when you don’t get the orifice size perfectly matched to the burner holes and fire either  comes rolling out the back of the burner or you have super long yellow flames that burn like crap and produce CO and soot.
> 
> I would keep this grill as far as possible from anything flammable.
> ...



Thanx. And no, I'm not adamant about doing this. Not at all. Just collecting information, which I thank everyone for. So, I'm digesting the chart.  The orifice number is found in the chart. And that will indicate its BTU/hr capacity. Which presumably will closely match the manufacturer's claim for the type of gas used (in this case ng since the ng kit was used). If this is correct, I'm missing the next step...which is what? Am I to  pick the new BTU/hr desired and bore out the orifice to the diameter indicated? How do i know the burners will accommodate whatever i pick?


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## schlotz (Aug 27, 2021)

Sure read like it.


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## bill1 (Aug 27, 2021)

OK, pmarc, JJS gave you the keys to the kingdom so I might as well give you the shove.  It sounds like your Fuego was never converted to NG, so you're going to do it.
You have to have a box of small numbered drills for both drilling and to use as gage pins.  Note these small drills are brittle/fragile and vary by only thousands of an inch.  If you're not used to such watchmaker tolerances like this don't try it.   If you break a drill off in the orifice you have a brick for a bbq.
What size orifice do you have now?  Since it's propane, the universal regulator size for propane bottles is 11"wc (water column of pressure) the orifice size will give you the BTU/h in the last column.  If a #55 drill fits but a #54 doesn't, you have a 20000 BTU/h unit.
Next you HAVE to get a regulator for natural gas--you can't plumb direct to a grill.  For 1/2" piping, a good size for a regulator is 3 or 4 inch-wc.
Many are sold for both LP & NG applications.  That's impossible.  That means you have to disassemble it and (usually just) reverse a part so the regulator spring is less compressed for the lower pressure NG application.
Let's say you have purchased, and verified the spring setting, for 4"wc.  From the table (for our example case of starting with 20000BTU/h propane) you will need to enlarge the orifice to a #44 hole to get 20000btu/h for 4"wc Nat Gas.  Of course you would start several sizes smaller and work your way up.
Don't take shortcuts and make sure you understand what you're doing.  Good luck.


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## pmarc (Aug 27, 2021)

bill1 said:


> OK, pmarc, JJS gave you the keys to the kingdom so I might as well give you the shove.  It sounds like your Fuego was never converted to NG, so you're going to do it.
> You have to have a box of small numbered drills for both drilling and to use as gage pins.  Note these small drills are brittle/fragile and vary by only thousands of an inch.  If you're not used to such watchmaker tolerances like this don't try it.   If you break a drill off in the orifice you have a brick for a bbq.
> What size orifice do you have now?  Since it's propane, the universal regulator size for propane bottles is 11"wc (water column of pressure) the orifice size will give you the BTU/h in the last column.  If a #55 drill fits but a #54 doesn't, you have a 20000 BTU/h unit.
> Next you HAVE to get a regulator for natural gas--you can't plumb direct to a grill.  For 1/2" piping, a good size for a regulator is 3 or 4 inch-wc.
> ...



My best next move is to get a good installer to do it right. It was ng converted, but the fact you say a regulator is required - I see none - suggests this system was done wrong.


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## JJS (Aug 27, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Thanx. And no, I'm not adamant about doing this. Not at all. Just collecting information, which I thank everyone for. So, I'm digesting the chart.  The orifice number is found in the chart. And that will indicate its BTU/hr capacity. Which presumably will closely match the manufacturer's claim for the type of gas used (in this case ng since the ng kit was used). If this is correct, I'm missing the next step...which is what? Am I to  pick the new BTU/hr desired and bore out the orifice to the diameter indicated? How do i know the burners will accommodate whatever i pick?



you need to know your manifold pressure (after regulator before burner controls) which will require you to insert a way to hook up a pressure gauge that reads inches of water column. At that point you can refer to the chart and see what each burner is rated for. 
You will then need to use the number drills to determine what size the holes in the burners are and divide the # of burner holes by total BTUs of the burner. once you figure out how many BTUs you would like to be at you adjust the main orifice to what the chart says then do some math to see how many more holes the burner needs and hope you were close when you fire it up


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## pmarc (Aug 27, 2021)

pmarc said:


> My best next move is to get a good installer to do it right.


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## pmarc (Aug 27, 2021)

Wanting to check if indeed the installer used ng orifices... I removed one (of two) which ties directly into the burner. The number on it doesn't make any sense for
purposes of the BTU chart...  It's either 1.06 or read upside down 90.1 .   The second orifice, to the other (much larger ) burner is about double the hole diameter and reads 1.7.  So I'm sure the first one isn't 90.1. It's 1.06.


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## bill1 (Aug 27, 2021)

pmarc said:


> .... It's 1.06.
> 
> View attachment 509042


I'm not seeing a hole.  It sort of looks like an AN fitting for 1/8" tubing to me.  But if you say it has a small hole in it, then it's probably an orifice.  And 1.06 is probably the diameter in mm or .042".  So a #60 drill should pass through and a #57 won't.  True?


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## pmarc (Aug 27, 2021)

bill1 said:


> I'm not seeing a hole.  It sort of looks like an AN fitting for 1/8" tubing to me.  But if you say it has a small hole in it, then it's probably an orifice.  And 1.06 is probably the diameter in mm or .042".  So a #60 drill should pass through and a #57 won't.  True?



Well, there is a hole. But all I'm trying to do is match to the correct BTU on the chart. In order to figure if this orifice is an ng or propane item. If its ng then the legitimate ng setup was done and that's it for BTU. Without fooling around with engineering. But hey, the .042 is only on the small burner. You add the two orifices for 2 burners to get the total BTU / hr rating the product advertises. Whats the decimal value for the other orifice? I bet together they equal 21,000.


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## bill1 (Aug 28, 2021)

Note I was just _guessing _when I said those numbers might be diameters measured in mm.  I'm just saying 1.06mm = .042 inches and 1.7mm = .067".  *You should verify if those are your two orifice diameters. * From JJS' chart that would be a total of over 43000 BTU/h for propane.  It is not reasonable that a small grill would have that much heat.  So if your orifices are truly .042 and .067 inches, then they've been set for natural gas.


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## pmarc (Aug 28, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Note I was just _guessing _when I said those numbers might be diameters measured in mm.  I'm just saying 1.06mm = .042 inches and 1.7mm = .067".  *You should verify if those are your two orifice diameters. * From JJS' chart that would be a total of over 43000 BTU/h for propane.  It is not reasonable that a small grill would have that much heat.  So if your orifices are truly .042 and .067 inches, then they've been set for natural gas.




Good analysis. I think its too coincidental not to be true - for ng. To confirm, I asked the manufacturer to mail me 2 ng orifices. Assuming I prove the ng's are installed, if I have the guts, or stupidity, I have to figure a) how much more BTU I'd like then b) bore out the orifices to the dia which matches the chart. And that's got to be a 25% BTU increase to make it worth while because the unit really sucks, now. I cant figure how anyone would market this product knowing it takes 40 minutes to cook a couple chicken breasts, including the warm-up time from a cold start. Ludicrous. Alternatively, thanx to this forum I know how to buy another grill if that's what I decide on.


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## pmarc (Aug 28, 2021)

bill1 said:


> OK, pmarc, JJS gave you the keys to the kingdom so I might as well give you the shove.  It sounds like your Fuego was never converted to NG, so you're going to do it.
> You have to have a box of small numbered drills for both drilling and to use as gage pins.  Note these small drills are brittle/fragile and vary by only thousands of an inch.  If you're not used to such watchmaker tolerances like this don't try it.   If you break a drill off in the orifice you have a brick for a bbq.
> What size orifice do you have now?  Since it's propane, the universal regulator size for propane bottles is 11"wc (water column of pressure) the orifice size will give you the BTU/h in the last column.  If a #55 drill fits but a #54 doesn't, you have a 20000 BTU/h unit.
> Next you HAVE to get a regulator for natural gas--you can't plumb direct to a grill.  For 1/2" piping, a good size for a regulator is 3 or 4 inch-wc.
> ...




Do you see a regulator in this NG conversion kit. It's what we bought and installed.


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## Fueling Around (Aug 28, 2021)

bill1
 found your problem,  the regulator.
Your "kit" didn't include a regulator for the LPG to NG conversion.
You will need to purchase a NG low pressure regulator.
Actually, I would complain to the manufacturer their kit is incomplete for the conversion.  $50 is pretty pricey for the few pieces provided.


bill1 said:


> ...
> Next you HAVE to get a regulator for natural gas--you can't plumb direct to a grill.  For 1/2" piping, a good size for a regulator is 3 or 4 inch-wc.
> Many are sold for both LP & NG applications.  That's impossible.  That means you have to disassemble it and (usually just) reverse a part so the regulator spring is less compressed for the lower pressure NG application.
> ...


Good catch Bill.
All regulators I've seen on consumer appliances are NOT alterable by the end user.  I'm sure that is a liability issue.


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## pmarc (Aug 28, 2021)

Fueling Around said:


> bill1
> found your problem,  the regulator.
> Your "kit" didn't include a regulator for the LPG to NG conversion.
> You will need to purchase a NG low pressure regulator.
> ...



Do you think the ng setup, without the ng regulator, negatively affects the heat output? Not to suggest I'd continue without the regulator. But I'm just trying to isolate the current extreme low heat issue.


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## forktender (Aug 28, 2021)

schlotz said:


> Weber


Weber won't even sell you parts to convert a grill from LP to NG or the other way around, anymore. Gone are the days of swapping out orifices to convert a grill over to NG or LP gas.
They will only sell you part for your specific grill, people are way too prone to lawsuits these days, so they have to cover their ass just to be safe.  The first thing I would try is a regulator for a grill that has more burners, I found this out by mistake, when I thought I bought the right regulator, the grill worked way better with the wrong replacement regulator.


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## pmarc (Aug 29, 2021)

forktender said:


> Weber won't even sell you parts to convert a grill from LP to NG or the other way around, anymore. Gone are the days of swapping out orifices to convert a grill over to NG or LP gas.
> They will only sell you part for your specific grill, people are way too prone to lawsuits these days, so they have to cover their ass just to be safe.  The first thing I would try is a regulator for a grill that has more burners, I found this out by mistake, when I thought I bought the right regulator, the grill worked way better with the wrong replacement regulator.



After reading, yesterday, it seems buying an ng regulator assumes the pressure in the incoming line varies. Maybe it was a moment of low pressure that I saw the most extreme slowness in cooking. But logic tells me there's nothing imminently dangerous about going without the ng regulator. And yes, it did surprise me that a company would let the consumer install an ng kit himself. And yes I agree with someone earlier $50 is a heck of a lot to pay for an ng conversion kit. Having been in manufacturing I'll tell you its their chance to make a few dollars to make up for losing a few dollars somewhere else.


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## pmarc (Aug 29, 2021)

pmarc said:


> After reading, yesterday, it seems buying an ng regulator assumes the pressure in the incoming line varies. Maybe it was a moment of low pressure that I saw the most extreme slowness in cooking. But logic tells me there's nothing imminently dangerous about going without the ng regulator. And yes, it did surprise me that a company would let the consumer install an ng kit himself. And yes I agree with someone earlier $50 is a heck of a lot to pay for an ng conversion kit. Having been in manufacturing I'll tell you its their chance to make a few dollars to make up for losing a few dollars somewhere else.



Actually, I see far less risk in this. If I begin by turning the gas knob to 1  (it has 10 notches), after orifices are bored out.


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## SecondHandSmoker (Aug 29, 2021)

pmarc said:


> But logic tells me there's nothing imminently dangerous about going without the ng regulator.




That is correct if the NG line supplying the grill is regulated upstream. 
Is the NG line supplying the grill already regulated upstream?
Be mindful that if the upstream regulator ever fails, and they do fail, then there is nothing stepping the pressure back down to the correct WC displacment for your specific grill before the gas enters the grill.
This creates a dangerous situation with the grill. 
That is why it is always a good idea to install an appliance regulator as a safety net.


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## pmarc (Aug 29, 2021)

SecondHandSmoker said:


> That is correct if the NG line supplying the grill is regulated upstream.
> Is the NG line supplying the grill already regulated upstream?
> Be mindful that if the upstream regulator ever fails, and they do fail, then there is nothing stepping the pressure back down to the correct WC displacment for your specific grill before the gas enters the grill.
> This creates a dangerous situation with the grill.
> That is why it is always a good idea to install an appliance regulator as a safety net.




Good point.  At the front of the house... you can see the the gas meter, on right. And the unit hanging off the left of it looks like a regulator. The same shape an an LP reg but much bigger for the entire house - guessing.


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## SecondHandSmoker (Aug 29, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Good point.  At the front of the house... you can see the the gas meter, on right. And the unit hanging off the left of it looks like a regulator. The same shape an an LP reg but much bigger for the entire house - guessing.



Yes, that is the main regulator on the main gas supply line for the house.  Usually the regulator is set at  0.25 psi or 6.9" WC.  So, if your NG gas grill calls for 7" WC, you're in the ballpark.  
Still a secondary regulator at the grill is a good idea, though.


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## bill1 (Aug 29, 2021)

Yes, every gas service entrance has to have a regulator.  That is what you identified just to the left of the service meter.  They're typically adjusted to anywhere from 5 to 22 inchesWC.    UBC also calls for a _separate _regulator for outside appliances, probably due to the fact they tend to be somewhat portable and with flexible fittings.  The other benefit of having a dedicated regulator at your grill is you'll _*know *_what the supplied pressure is so you can size your orifices correctly.   If you don't have one at your grill (and they're only $20!!!)  *you must measure the pressure there,* in inches of water column, to know what size orifices to use.  You can't just assume the service entrance regulator is set at a reasonable value for your orifices!  

You seem resistant to gauging (measuring) the orifices you have...do you not have a box of numbered drills?  That's kind of basic.  Are you sure you're up to doing this sort of work?  There are a lot of common household items (paperclips, mechanical pencil leads, etc) that can be trusted as quite accurate gauges of small holes.  Do you need some advice there? 

Finally I sure hope that plumbing on the left in your last picture is water.  (That regulator is intended only for water.)  If it's not , that is a very unsafe contraption for gas. 

Finally, many low heat problems with grills is just due to spider cobwebs in the plumbing line...particularly at the orifices.  Have you disassembled what you have (with any gas valved off) to assume that's not your problem.?


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## forktender (Aug 29, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Yes, every gas service entrance has to have a regulator.  That is what you identified just to the left of the service meter.  They're typically adjusted to anywhere from 5 to 22 inchesWC.    UBC also calls for a _separate _regulator for outside appliances, probably due to the fact they tend to be somewhat portable and with flexible fittings.  The other benefit of having a dedicated regulator at your grill is you'll _*know *_what the supplied pressure is so you can size your orifices correctly.   If you don't have one at your grill (and they're only $20!!!)  *you must measure the pressure there,* in inches of water column, to know what size orifices to use.  You can't just assume the service entrance regulator is set at a reasonable value for your orifices!
> 
> You seem resistant to gauging (measuring) the orifices you have...do you not have a box of numbered drills?  That's kind of basic.  Are you sure you're up to doing this sort of work?  There are a lot of common household items (paperclips, mechanical pencil leads, etc) that can be trusted as quite accurate gauges of small holes.  Do you need some advice there?
> 
> ...


The plumbing on the left is most definitely water piping, seeing that it is soldered copper pipe.
As far as I know is soldered copper pipe hasn't been acceptable for LP or NG in well over 40 years according to the UPC Universal Plumbing Code written by IAPMO for the entire USA.


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## pmarc (Aug 30, 2021)

forktender said:


> The plumbing on the left is most definitely water piping, seeing that it is soldered copper pipe.
> As far as I know is soldered copper pipe hasn't been acceptable for LP or NG in well over 40 years according to the UPC Universal Plumbing Code written by IAPMO for the entire USA.




Fuego Grills just confirmed the numbers I see on orifices are for their ng ones (they're metric, as the grill is made in China). And yes I can confirm the hole diameters even further using drill bits, as I own many. I'm not going to worry about copper piping or a possible broken house regulator, for now. I only need 60 minutes to test once the orifices are drilled out. So... using the BTU chart as my guide what next step do you suggest in order to make new holes which won't blow up the house? (incidentally, Fuego said the house regulator suffices and thats why they dont supply one. I didn't attempt  to correct them.) But I did complain about the lousy heat.


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## pmarc (Aug 30, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Yes, every gas service entrance has to have a regulator.  That is what you identified just to the left of the service meter.  They're typically adjusted to anywhere from 5 to 22 inchesWC.    UBC also calls for a _separate _regulator for outside appliances, probably due to the fact they tend to be somewhat portable and with flexible fittings.  The other benefit of having a dedicated regulator at your grill is you'll _*know *_what the supplied pressure is so you can size your orifices correctly.   If you don't have one at your grill (and they're only $20!!!)  *you must measure the pressure there,* in inches of water column, to know what size orifices to use.  You can't just assume the service entrance regulator is set at a reasonable value for your orifices!
> 
> You seem resistant to gauging (measuring) the orifices you have...do you not have a box of numbered drills?  That's kind of basic.  Are you sure you're up to doing this sort of work?  There are a lot of common household items (paperclips, mechanical pencil leads, etc) that can be trusted as quite accurate gauges of small holes.  Do you need some advice there?
> 
> ...



No spider webs or other impediments. But Fuego said my line should be at 7" WC to work right. If I were to increase pressure then my kitchen gas stove wouldn't work right.


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## pmarc (Sep 5, 2021)

pmarc said:


> No spider webs or other impediments. But Fuego said my line should be at 7" WC to work right. If I were to increase pressure then my kitchen gas stove wouldn't work right.



Can someone run numbers on the resulting ng flow from a 1.5”  pipe reduced to a 1” pipe?


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## bill1 (Sep 5, 2021)

For the flow associated with a 20kBTU/h grill, the pressure drop from 1.5 to 1.0 pipe is negligible.  (Unless that 1" line is >100' or something typically non-residential.)  

You seem to be saying Fuego provided you NG orifices and they require supplied 7"wc pressure.  But you have no idea what your gas pressure is at the grill nor how big the orifices really are.  Could someone have opened them up without your knowledge?   Did you buy the grill used?   I suspect your pressure may be too low at your grill.  That can be solved with a 3 or 4 inch-wc regulator and then opening up the orifices appropriately to their designed BTU/h values.  But if you don't have access to numbered drills so you can MEASURE, how could you possibly open them up?


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## pmarc (Sep 5, 2021)

bill1 said:


> For the flow associated with a 20kBTU/h grill, the pressure drop from 1.5 to 1.0 pipe is negligible.  (Unless that 1" line is >100' or something typically non-residential.)
> 
> You seem to be saying Fuego provided you NG orifices and they require supplied 7"wc pressure.  But you have no idea what your gas pressure is at the grill nor how big the orifices really are.  Could someone have opened them up without your knowledge?   Did you buy the grill used?   I suspect your pressure may be too low at your grill.  That can be solved with a 3 or 4 inch-wc regulator and then opening up the orifices appropriately to their designed BTU/h values.  But if you don't have access to numbered drills so you can MEASURE, how could you possibly open them up?



1. Thanx for the flow info.
2. Yes  7"wc pressure.
3. Bought the grill new. 
4. I have an enormous set of drills. My earlier confirmation on this got lost in the sauce.
5. I will now measure the orifices and match the btu/hr in the chart.
6. BTW the manufacturer recently gave me numbers on their orifices designating ng. They match on mine. Nevertheless, I'll measure them.
7. QUESTION: if the orifices already match the advertised btu/hr ... whats the sense in opening them up, which would be dangerous, correct? I mean I'd have no bearing or basis for selecting the new hole sizes. Unless maybe if I open them up incrementally and test them on low.
8. The 1"  pipe runs 100 feet to the grill.


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## bill1 (Sep 5, 2021)

pmarc said:


> 1. Thanx for the flow info.
> 2. Yes  7"wc pressure.
> 3. Bought the grill new.
> 4. I have an enormous set of drills. My earlier confirmation on this got lost in the sauce.
> ...


If the manufacturer specifies a 7 inch water column head at your grill, and 
If you have accurately *measured  *7" wc pressure at your grill, and
If you know the total btu/h of your grill as it was designed, and 
If you have accurately *measured *the diameters of your orifices and they match the btu/h for your grill per the chart for 7"wc, and 
If you have verified no debris, spider webs etc in your line and your control valves appear to work normally, 
Then you have the optimal setup as the manufacturer intended.  
But if the piping out to the grill is new, it may take a while to purge out the air in it so you can deliver your gas company's ng.  This is of course, dependent on the length of the line.  Note also that CH4 is lighter than N2 or O2 so if you have some low spots in your line where air is trapped, it can take particularly long to start running pure ng.


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## pmarc (Sep 6, 2021)

bill1 said:


> If the manufacturer specifies a 7 inch water column head at your grill, and
> If you have accurately *measured  *7" wc pressure at your grill, and
> If you know the total btu/h of your grill as it was designed, and
> If you have accurately *measured *the diameters of your orifices and they match the btu/h for your grill per the chart for 7"wc, and
> ...



About to buy a manometer any brand you suggest? They range from $11 - $50.


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## bill1 (Sep 6, 2021)

Unless you plan to use it a lot, I'd go cheap.  It's easy to calibrate/verify with a few feet of clear poly tubing full of water and bent into a U.  So if you read 7"wc from your gas line, verify it reads the same with 7" of water on the other side of U tube.  (Ask me if you don't know how to do this.)  
I would tend to prefer an analog over digital gauge, but this may be an area where the cost differential might not be worth it to me.


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## pmarc (Sep 7, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Unless you plan to use it a lot, I'd go cheap.  It's easy to calibrate/verify with a few feet of clear poly tubing full of water and bent into a U.  So if you read 7"wc from your gas line, verify it reads the same with 7" of water on the other side of U tube.  (Ask me if you don't know how to do this.)
> I would tend to prefer an analog over digital gauge, but this may be an area where the cost differential might not be worth it to me.





bill1 said:


> Unless you plan to use it a lot, I'd go cheap.  It's easy to calibrate/verify with a few feet of clear poly tubing full of water and bent into a U.  So if you read 7"wc from your gas line, verify it reads the same with 7" of water on the other side of U tube.  (Ask me if you don't know how to do this.)
> I would tend to prefer an analog over digital gauge, but this may be an area where the cost differential might not be worth it to me.




Will this do the job? I dont know how to convert psi, though. They all seem the same.


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## bill1 (Sep 8, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Will this do the job? ...


NO!  Not at all.  This reads to 60psi.  This is for pressurizing a recently plumbed line with an air compressor, BEFORE THE NG IS TURNED ON, to verify there's no leaks.  It's for use with air, typically from a bicycle pump, at high pressure but no flow.  You come back a day later and make sure the pressure (of air) reads the same to verify no leaks.  Then you're safe to start natural gas which is at much lower pressure.   
Newton said "If I can count it I can understand it".   You simply must understand the basic unit conversions to understand a field of study and work in that field safely.   God stuck us in a basic atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi.  That equals 1.00 absolute atmospheres of pressure.   1 atmosphere supports a 760millimeter column of mercury or a 407 inch column of water.  Everything we measure is relative to absolute and is called gauge pressure.  60 psi gauge pressure (also referred to precisely as 60psig) is 4 atmospheres over atmospheric so would be more than 1600 inches of water column.  You want to measure the difference between 6 & 7 inches-wc.  It would be impossible to read that small a number on a gauge like you posted.  You need something like this.   Note that it reads a max gauge pressure (absolute atmospheric pressure reads as 0)  of 25 inWC.  So 7 inchWC (what you're trying to verify) will put the dial at about "9 o'clock" on this analog gauge--easily read.  That lines up with 4 ounces per square inch gauge.  Since there's 16 ounces of force per pound of force (just as there is 16 ounces of water in a pound of water) that's telling you 7"wc equals 1/4 psi.  But again, you can't read .25psi on a scale that goes to 60.  (But if you find something cheaper than $40 that reads to 1psi max, you'd be in the right ball park.)  








						General Tools Gas Pressure Gauge Test Kit with 39 in. Rubber Hose, Quick Connect Fitting and Carry Case GPK035 - The Home Depot
					

General Tools has grown to become the recognized industry leader for specialty hand tools and instruments. The #GPK035 Gas Pressure Test Kit is ruggedized for field use and easier to use than a manometer.



					www.homedepot.com


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## pmarc (Sep 8, 2021)

bill1 said:


> NO!  Not at all.  This reads to 60psi.  This is for pressurizing a recently plumbed line with an air compressor, BEFORE THE NG IS TURNED ON, to verify there's no leaks.  It's for use with air, typically from a bicycle pump, at high pressure but no flow.  You come back a day later and make sure the pressure (of air) reads the same to verify no leaks.  Then you're safe to start natural gas which is at much lower pressure.
> Newton said "If I can count it I can understand it".   You simply must understand the basic unit conversions to understand a field of study and work in that field safely.   God stuck us in a basic atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi.  That equals 1.00 absolute atmospheres of pressure.   1 atmosphere supports a 760millimeter column of mercury or a 407 inch column of water.  Everything we measure is relative to absolute and is called gauge pressure.  60 psi gauge pressure (also referred to precisely as 60psig) is 4 atmospheres over atmospheric so would be more than 1600 inches of water column.  You want to measure the difference between 6 & 7 inches-wc.  It would be impossible to read that small a number on a gauge like you posted.  You need something like this.   Note that it reads a max gauge pressure (absolute atmospheric pressure reads as 0)  of 25 inWC.  So 7 inchWC (what you're trying to verify) will put the dial at about "9 o'clock" on this analog gauge--easily read.  That lines up with 4 ounces per square inch gauge.  Since there's 16 ounces of force per pound of force (just as there is 16 ounces of water in a pound of water) that's telling you 7"wc equals 1/4 psi.  But again, you can't read .25psi on a scale that goes to 60.  (But if you find something cheaper than $40 that reads to 1psi max, you'd be in the right ball park.)
> 
> 
> ...



I ordered yours. Thanx.  This is gonna be an easy fix. If the pressure at grill is below spec, I'll re-locate the grill to within 10 feet of the beginning of the line, after measuring pressure again. No way I'm gonna replace 100 ft of pipe. BTW the orifices hole sizes match for the advertised btu. And no cobwebs, etc. There are no elevation drops in line. It's flat all the way. Been used about 10 times so not sure air has to be forced out, at this point.


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## bill1 (Sep 8, 2021)

pmarc said:


> I ordered yours. Thanx.  This is gonna be an easy fix. If the pressure at grill is below spec, I'll re-locate the grill to within 10 feet...


I wouldn't assume you have a pressure drop problem with your line.  You need to take two pressure measurements, both at your current grill location.  One with no flow.  So just attach your new gauge and see what you read direct at the spigot.  Then hook up the line to your grill, with a tee to your gauge, and measure the pressure with the grill at full heat, drawing gas.  If it's a significantly lower number, then yeah, you're losing too much pressure in the line and we can discuss options.  

But you may find your problem is you have greater than 7"WC.  In which case your simplest fix is to add 7"wc regulator at the grill.  Good for safety too.  

But a 100' line takes a while to purge at these flows.  So try not to vent your line (much) when you do these minor plumging changes at your grill location.


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## Fueling Around (Sep 8, 2021)

bill1 said:


> I wouldn't assume you have a pressure drop problem with your line.  You need to take two pressure measurements, both at your current grill location.  One with no flow.  So just attach your new gauge and see what you read direct at the spigot.  Then hook up the line to your grill, with a tee to your gauge, and measure the pressure with the grill at full heat, drawing gas.  If it's a significantly lower number, then yeah, you're losing too much pressure in the line and we can discuss options.
> 
> But you may find your problem is you have greater than 7"WC.  In which case your simplest fix is to add 7"wc regulator at the grill.  Good for safety too.
> 
> But a 100' line takes a while to purge at these flows.  So try not to vent your line (much) when you do these minor plumbing changes at your grill location.


There should be a shut off valve at the end of a 100' line before you feed the appliance.
Flow is significantly reduced at 100' straight line plus much more for every elbow. Not familiar with pipe fitter code on up sizing diameter.


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## pmarc (Sep 9, 2021)

bill1 said:


> I wouldn't assume you have a pressure drop problem with your line.  You need to take two pressure measurements, both at your current grill location.  One with no flow.  So just attach your new gauge and see what you read direct at the spigot.  Then hook up the line to your grill, with a tee to your gauge, and measure the pressure with the grill at full heat, drawing gas.  If it's a significantly lower number, then yeah, you're losing too much pressure in the line and we can discuss options.
> 
> But you may find your problem is you have greater than 7"WC.  In which case your simplest fix is to add 7"wc regulator at the grill.  Good for safety too.
> 
> But a 100' line takes a while to purge at these flows.  So try not to vent your line (much) when you do these minor plumging changes at your grill location.




The gauge at the spigot reads 6 oz / in sq   or  10 in H2O     (I have to exchange the T tonight - wrong size)


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## pmarc (Sep 10, 2021)

pmarc said:


> The gauge at the spigot reads 6 oz / in sq   or  10 in H2O     (I have to exchange the T tonight - wrong size)


 Can you give me an interim reply on these numbers, thanx.


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## bill1 (Sep 10, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Can you give me an interim reply on these numbers, thanx.


I believe you said the vendor told you your grill NG mod was sized for 7 inchWC.  If you have 10 instead, you need a regulator set for 7.

CORRECTION: you _*might *_need a regulator.  Repeat the measurement with a tee and gas flowing through your lit grill.   Fueling Around thinks you may have more drop than I.  Let's see.


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## pmarc (Sep 10, 2021)

bill1 said:


> I believe you said the vendor told you your grill NG mod was sized for 7 inchWC.  If you have 10 instead, you need a regulator set for 7.
> 
> CORRECTION: you _*might *_need a regulator.  Repeat the measurement with a tee and gas flowing through your lit grill.   Fueling Around thinks you may have more drop than I.  Let's see.



I'm not sure exactly where to hook up, inside the grill. For example, I can access where the gas enters behind the gas knob (then the gas leaves this device and runs a foot in two thin coiled tubes, to the burners. Actually there's no where else to hook up the T.


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## bill1 (Sep 11, 2021)

Where your hard line ends MUST be a csa-certified valve that is normally closed.  Off this you install a tee, then you plumb your flex-line to the bbq.  Plumb your new gauge to the remaining arm of the tee.    When everything is tight, open the main valve.  Your manometer should read the same 10inWC.  Now light your bbq as always.  What does the gauge read now?  The difference is the total pressure drop for the entire plumbing system for the  flow your grill draws.  If it's right at 7inWC, you're good to go.  If more, you need a regulator.  (You SHOULD have a regulator anyways, but I've said that before.)


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Where your hard line ends MUST be a csa-certified valve that is normally closed.  Off this you install a tee, then you plumb your flex-line to the bbq.  Plumb your new gauge to the remaining arm of the tee.    When everything is tight, open the main valve.  Your manometer should read the same 10inWC.  Now light your bbq as always.  What does the gauge read now?  The difference is the total pressure drop for the entire plumbing system for the  flow your grill draws.  If it's right at 7inWC, you're good to go.  If more, you need a regulator.  (You SHOULD have a regulator anyways, but I've said that before.)


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

With unit on, at high,  the pressure is 6 in H2O. Which is 14% low. I don't think adding 14% would do anything. Between you and me.

Some Details:  the two pressure exercises (grill on, grill off) were done using the 10 ft hose the unit came with. One end attached at the unit, the other end at the on / off valve. (The hard line on/off valve has a funky opening which already fit the hose end perfectly).


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## bill1 (Sep 11, 2021)

pmarc said:


> With unit on, at high,  the pressure is 6 in H2O. Which is 14% low. I don't think adding 14% would do anything. Between you and me.
> 
> Some Details:  the two pressure exercises (grill on, grill off) were done using the 10 ft hose the unit came with. One end attached at the unit, the other end at the on / off valve. (The hard line on/off valve has a funky opening which already fit the hose end perfectly).


It appears from the table that you'd increase your orifices by...wait for it...less than a drill size to be optimal now.  Therefore yes, you're close enough.  
So, are you still feeling your grill still isn't getting hot enough?  If that's the case, you could share a picture of the blue flame from the burners. 

But I'm most concerned by your statement the hard line valve has a funky opening.   This stuff all needs to fit exactly and precisely.  You need to know the difference between tapered and straight pipe threads, etc.  And I think you said the hard line is half-inch pipe, so the valve would have 1/2 NPT females on it.  Your flex hose I'd guess would end in an AN flare fitting but it would come with an adapter to  3/8 NPT male.  But that wouldn't fit 1/2 NPT female at all.  Do you understand all these fitting names?  If not post some pics with a ruler for a scale and we can walk you this.


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

bill1 said:


> It appears from the table that you'd increase your orifices by...wait for it...less than a drill size to be optimal now.  Therefore yes, you're close enough.
> So, are you still feeling your grill still isn't getting hot enough?  If that's the case, you could share a picture of the blue flame from the burners.
> 
> But I'm most concerned by your statement the hard line valve has a funky opening.   This stuff all needs to fit exactly and precisely.  You need to know the difference between tapered and straight pipe threads, etc.  And I think you said the hard line is half-inch pipe, so the valve would have 1/2 NPT females on it.  Your flex hose I'd guess would end in an AN flare fitting but it would come with an adapter to  3/8 NPT male.  But that wouldn't fit 1/2 NPT female at all.  Do you understand all these fitting names?  If not post some pics with a ruler for a scale and we can walk you this.



Ignore my “funky” remark. I just didn't want to deal with an opening which uses a quick-attach mechanism.  In the end all was attached perfectly, as I used flared ends where needed - I know that gas leaks if you attach threads to threads, etc. There was zero gas leak during any of the tests.

I'll wait til sun down, or close, or you won't see the flame in a photo. Guessing the 100 ft run caused the 14% drop. Partly due to the length of the run, and partly due to reduced pipe size. Regardless of how you guys end up interpreting the flames, I'll be buying a new grill. While looking at total btu/hr divided by grate surface size. Because that ratio for this grill, is particularly bad.


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Ignore my “funky” remark. I just didn't want to deal with an opening which uses a quick-attach mechanism.  In the end all was attached perfectly, as I used flared ends where needed - I know that gas leaks if you attach threads to threads, etc. There was zero gas leak during any of the tests.
> 
> I'll wait til sun down, or close, or you won't see the flame in a photo. Guessing the 100 ft run caused the 14% drop. Partly due to the length of the run, and partly due to reduced pipe size. Regardless of how you guys end up interpreting the flames, I'll be buying a new grill. While looking at total btu/hr divided by grate surface size. Because that ratio for this grill, is particularly bad.


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

Did pic post? Give me your email.


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## pmarc (Sep 11, 2021)

pmarc said:


>


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## pmarc (Sep 12, 2021)

By the way would you disadvise me boring out the orifices greater than the 14%?


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## bill1 (Sep 13, 2021)

The orifice diameters do NOT scale with pressure drop!!!!  As I said, use the chart, extrapolate for 6 vs 7 and that difference works out to an optimal size a couple mils (.001") large than you have.  The drill that would enlarge your holes by that small an amount does not exist.  SO DO NOT DRILL THEM.  You could use a wooden toothpick I suppose.  But it sounds like you've already decided on a new grill.  
I can see the picture fine.  I am "surprised" by the spacing of the holes, and hence the design of the burner, but given that, the flame height looks reasonable.  And it could be an optical illusion thing, but the flame does not look fully developed circumstantially  on the inner burner???  Like there's no blue flame in the front, away from the feed?   If that is true, yes there is a gas problem.


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## schlotz (Sep 13, 2021)

Agree with getting a new grill at this point.  Stay with a well known brand.  Remember, you usually get what you pay for....


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## pmarc (Sep 13, 2021)

bill1 said:


> The orifice diameters do NOT scale with pressure drop!!!!  As I said, use the chart, extrapolate for 6 vs 7 and that difference works out to an optimal size a couple mils (.001") large than you have.  The drill that would enlarge your holes by that small an amount does not exist.  SO DO NOT DRILL THEM.  You could use a wooden toothpick I suppose.  But it sounds like you've already decided on a new grill.
> I can see the picture fine.  I am "surprised" by the spacing of the holes, and hence the design of the burner, but given that, the flame height looks reasonable.  And it could be an optical illusion thing, but the flame does not look fully developed circumstantially  on the inner burner???  Like there's no blue flame in the front, away from the feed?   If that is true, yes there is a gas problem.


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## pmarc (Sep 13, 2021)

I ran it again, after sun down and the burners generate the same flame. BUT!!!  I just noticed an oddity with the control knob . The outer burner's flame rises and diminishes as you adjust the knob. As you'd expect. And incrementally from low to high. But the inside burner TURNS OFF completely at a certain point!  And sometimes turns back on as you reverse the knob's direction. Sometimes, not. And remember, there's only one knob for both burners. I never noticed this because when I'm cooking the food and the grate obscure the burners. There's about a  50/50 chance I can re-light the inner burner by toggling the control knob. This is somewhat fixed by merely turning the unit to high and keeping it that way. Edit:  Fuego’s reply to this says its normal, for this grill:

“Anywhere between the 3 o'clock position (off) and 12 o'clock position (high) should have both burners going with 12 o'clock being the strongest.  Once you turn the control knob to over the the left side, 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock position would be just the outside burner (inner burner is off)". And my response to this feature - I'd love to meet the Einstein who designed it.


THANX EVERYONE. YOUR MISSION - TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BLOWING THEMSELVES UP - WAS ACHIEVED. THANK YOU!


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## bill1 (Sep 17, 2021)

pmarc said:


> ...But the inside burner TURNS OFF completely at a certain point!  And sometimes turns back on as you reverse...


I had no idea this grill with two burners with two orifices only had a single control knob.  When the inner burner goes off, but then comes back on, it's because the gas is building up until it "explodes" into lighting again.  That is not all that safe.  It could be that if you had 7 inchWC instead of 6 that "feature" may not be as prominent or gone completely.  Still, commercial gas appliances should be designed to have a greater operating range than that! 
I normally suggest to people on this forum to "use it up and wear it out"...heck, it's the way my Folks raised me.  But this Fuego sounds like a poorly designed product to me.  If you have the resources to replace it with a Weber or something reputable, that's certainly my suggestion.


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## pmarc (Sep 17, 2021)

Thinking the same. The 6 pressur


bill1 said:


> I had no idea this grill with two burners with two orifices only had a single control knob.  When the inner burner goes off, but then comes back on, it's because the gas is building up until it "explodes" into lighting again.  That is not all that safe.  It could be that if you had 7 inchWC instead of 6 that "feature" may not be as prominent or gone completely.  Still, commercial gas appliances should be designed to have a greater operating range than that!
> I normally suggest to people on this forum to "use it up and wear it out"...heck, it's the way my Folks raised me.  But this Fuego sounds like a poorly designed product to me.  If you have the resources to replace it with a Weber or something reputable, that's certainly my suggestion.


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## pmarc (Sep 17, 2021)

Was thinking the same that the 6 is too low for burner 2 to be stable but I can avoid the problem by never allowing it to go off. Noting a little bit beyond 12:00 the knob turns it off. I could also make a “stop” to limit the knob’s range.


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## pmarc (Sep 17, 2021)

Was thinking the same that the 6 is too low for burner 2 to be stable but I can avoid the problem by never allowing it to go off. Noting a little bit beyond 12:00 the knob turns it off. I could also make a “stop” to limit the knob’s range.


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## bill1 (Sep 24, 2021)

pmarc said:


> Was thinking the same that the 6 is too low for burner 2 to be stable but I can avoid the problem by never allowing it to go off. Noting a little bit beyond 12:00 the knob turns it off. I could also make a “stop” to limit the knob’s range.


Sounds good.   I certainly use a lot of work-arounds myself.  But how hot can it get now when keeping the lid closed?   Not enough heat is what started your concern with this thread, right?


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## pmarc (Sep 24, 2021)

bill1 said:


> Sounds good.   I certainly use a lot of work-arounds myself.  But how hot can it get now when keeping the lid closed?   Not enough heat is what started your concern with this thread, right?



Well since I'm not turning off anything  LOL it gets to 400 deg  in 4 min and 550 deg in 5 min. Given another 5 min it'll get even hotter.


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## bill1 (Sep 25, 2021)

The primary charm of gas grills is grilling...putting a sear on a steak.  What counts there is the temperature of the grill grates, not so much the ambient temperature of the air which is passing through.  550 is hotter than I can easily get my pellet grill (and it takes longer than 5 mins to get there) and yet it's my go-to cooker for anything up to hamburgers.  Why not buy a couple of steaks and see if you don't have a satisfactory grill now?  Take 5 minutes to heat it up (and sanitize things) put on your steaks for 5 minutes (leaving the lid closed) then flip them over and take internal readings every two minutes until you get the internal temp (130-150F) you like.  A couple of these make that easy to do without opening the lid.  








						FANTAST Meat thermometer/timer, digital black - IKEA
					

FANTAST Meat thermometer/timer, digital black Magnet on back - sticks to a refrigerator etc.




					www.ikea.com


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## pmarc (Sep 25, 2021)

I test with my thumb. I’m not worrying about losing 50 deg upon lifting the lid - you’re right the grates temp doesnt  change much.

Actually I’m a wood-fired griller not a gas guy., But wood is an art and very challenging. Gets tiring for just a few ppl -  not worth it. You can barely talk to your friends managing the wood, esp if the friends arent gathering at your fire. You cant leave the fire for long. So Now with just me n the wife its gas time.

But Monday I have a men-only gathering. (8 of us). So I’m using my steel firepit . I construct a tee pee of 3 electrical conduit lengths tied at the top and hang a 10 lb rump for 6 hrs over the pit. I also have a Patagonian cross… I pin a pig to it and roast a couple feet from the wood fire.

The correct rubric for wood-fired is “primatve cooking“.  You throw only salt on the meat. Zip. Nothing else. No bbq sauce or anything, even at the table. Because the wood flavors the meat. And I’m not talking about smoke, which you avoid creating at all costs. Argentinians dont like smoked food. This is an entirely arcane method very unfamiliar with americans. Thats why its so cool to do. Guests are always intrigued. Its a great show. I’ll post tee pee videos here , next week.


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