# Nitrate free bacon...



## smokensweet (Jul 18, 2019)

ok, 
I saw a feature on bacon, i think on cnn, i feel like it was in the midwest kansas or something like that. Anyway, they cure thousands of pounds a month using only salt and sugar, no curing salt. 10 days stacked high in a cooler, rinsed and hung at room temp for another ten days, then cold smoked for yet another ten days, internal temp never above 105 if i remember. 
      I was surprized having been curing and cold smoking bacon for a decade or so now. Every site i search does nothing similar. Food safety concerns me on this process, no curing salt at all and hung for ten days at room temp.  I kinda want to try this but im a little worried as i live in the philippines where its not just warm but also humid. 
    Has anyone else seen this feature or have any thoughts on it?  I pointed out kansas because wherever it was it wasnt a cool everyday climate.


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## nanuk (Jul 18, 2019)

if it isn't cured, it isn't bacon....   or at least I don't think so.

Salt Pork, sure...  but bacon?


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## smokerjim (Jul 18, 2019)

did they say anything about using celery salt


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## SlickRockStones (Jul 18, 2019)

Lucky’s Market is a newer chain coming into our area that is said to cure,smoke and slice nitrate and nitrite free bacon in store. Should be opening soon in Pt. Charlotte so we shall see.


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## smokerjim (Jul 18, 2019)

as far as I know nitrate and nitrite free bacon just means that they weren't added, but using certain plants make it naturally. like celery salt, celery juice. I could be wrong about this will be interesting to see


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## dr k (Jul 18, 2019)

Oof! That's why we evolved to nitrite. No nitrate allowed in store bought bacon anymore. Salting and sugaring was/is a good preserving technique that is time consuming because you rinse and reapply. Salt's hygroscopic effect of dtawing up liquid reduces water activity, keeping bacteria's inability to grow and sugar makes food less salty and feeds lactobacillus a probiotic to take over and drop the PH to make the outside more acidic, inhibiting microbe growth. This appears to be a technique that curing eliminates. Um, don't do it. Nitrite inhibits pork fat from turning rancid because it's less satured than beef's chunky, cakey dryer texture and pork's wet slimy fat texture will turn rancid very quickly which is 50% on why we cure pork. Then curing pork inhibiits botulism a common foodbourne pathogen to pork because botulism metabolizes from the iron in myoglobin and that's why cured food is pink because myglobin's iron hasn't oxidized. Don't do it untill you learn the technique. Then don't do it.


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## smokensweet (Jul 18, 2019)

smokerjim said:


> did they say anything about using celery salt


No celery salt. Just sea salt and sugar. I was shocked because everything i have read says the same, and yes oldtimers saying its not bacon. But this wasnt some hobbyist operation, 1000’s of lbs a week and sitting at room temp for 10 days with another ten days in cold smoking. Obviously it works but im just kinda affected i guess.


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## smokensweet (Jul 18, 2019)

dr k said:


> Oof! That's why we evolved to nitrite. No nitrate allowed in store bought bacon anymore. Salting and sugaring was/is a good preserving technique that is time consuming because you rinse and reapply. Salt's hygroscopic effect of dtawing up liquid reduces water activity, keeping bacteria's inability to grow and sugar makes food less salty and feeds lactobacillus a probiotic to take over and drop the PH to make the outside more acidic, inhibiting microbe growth. This appears to be a technique that curing eliminates. Um, don't do it. Nitrite inhibits pork fat from turning rancid because it's less satured than beef's chunky, cakey dryer texture and pork's wet slimy fat texture will turn rancid very quickly which is 50% on why we cure pork. Then curing pork inhibiits botulism a common foodbourne pathogen to pork because botulism metabolizes from the iron in myoglobin and that's why cured food is pink because myglobin's iron hasn't oxidized. Don't do it untill you learn the technique. Then don't do it.




Thats why im posting i guess, im not new to curing and have cured thousands of pounds of it over the years.  I know the effects of curing salt and not using it as well as substitutes. But this feature showed them and they detailed how long it sat with the salt and sugar rub as well as hanging at room temp and cold smoking.  I guess thats how it was done before curing salts existed and if they could make safe bacon before refrigeration existed we should be able to now. 
    Im hoping someone else saw the feature as well and remembers the name of the company so i can directly reach out to them.  My biggest concern is yes, botulism and parasites.  Cold smoking and no curing salt i dont see how they address those, but it was a large scale commercial operation... so im sure its been inspected and approved as safe.


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## Fueling Around (Jul 18, 2019)

Up until the smoking part it reads as you're describing the old school Italian prosciutto.

Italian charcuterie is a craft left to the masters.
Don't go there.


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## daveomak (Jul 18, 2019)

If you use liquid smoke for flavoring...  It could be a worth while process...  The nitrite prevents botulism which can grow in a low oxygen environment like a smoke house...  Just refrigeration will dehydrate the meat helping to prevent growth of all kinds of nasties..   Unfortunately, the process is probably approved by the USDA which......  YOU WILL NEVER duplicate....
Making bacon is soooo easy and fulfills a desire to produce quality, real world, old world bacon...  
If meat is smoked, it has nitrate/nitrite in it....
Personally, I will NEVER alter my method to eliminate nitrite...  It's healthy and makes some awesome eats...  
Stick with your celery....  make 2nd rate bacon if that's your goal.....


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## gmc2003 (Jul 19, 2019)

CNN = Fake News. Sorry I just had to say that. 

I have seen uncured bacon sold in our local grocer before. I've never tried it or been curious enough to read the label, but I would imagine like most of the smoked cheese in the deli dept. it has liquid smoke in it. 

Chris


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## smokin peachey (Jul 19, 2019)

I have made lots of uncured bacon. I use celery juice powder, apple butter or maple sugar and salt. My wife has food allergies and can’t have sugar and is scared to try cure #1.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/aip-paleo-curing-bacon-and-ham.280484/

Definitely not liquid smoke.


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## HalfSmoked (Jul 19, 2019)

Finding this very interesting. It seems to me more investigation is needed into their process. Smokin Peachey as said has done bacon with other items and it works fine for him. 

Warren


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## smokerjim (Jul 19, 2019)

I read a pack of uncured bacon at work today, forgot to take picture I will take one tomorrow, this was a pack of promise land uncured bacon it says no nitrites/nitrates added just contains nitrites/nitrates that naturally occur from celery powder and sea salt, I will post a pic sat. the company your talking about may use a different way but I just wanted to point out that a lot of companies are claiming to have uncured bacon, hotdogs, and this must be legal, but really there just curing it naturally.


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## PolishDeli (Jul 19, 2019)

Isn’t all USA cured bacon nitrate free by decree of the USDA? 
It is cured with nitrites exclusively.

The “uncured/nitrate free/nitrite free” stuff that is made with celery juice powder does contain nitrates and/or nitrites; but which one(s)? NaNO2? NaNO3? KNO2? KNO3?  Something else?  All of them?  How much of each? So, calling it uncured is misleading at best.  "Cure level unknown" would be the better label.

Cure #1 contains exactly 6.25% NaNO2 by weight.  NaNO2 is naturally occurring by the way, too. Therefore, using CJP doesn’t make it any more or less natural.


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## dr k (Jul 19, 2019)

PolishDeli said:


> Isn’t all USA cured bacon nitrate free by decree of the USDA?
> It is cured with nitrites exclusively.
> 
> The “uncured/nitrate free/nitrite free” stuff that is made with celery juice powder does contain nitrates and/or nitrites; but which one(s)? NaNO2? NaNO3? KNO2? KNO3?  Something else?  All of them?  How much of each? So, calling it uncured is misleading at best.  "Cure level unknown" would be the better label.
> ...


I wish there was a legitimate paper differentiating the difference in nitrate in vegetables and their concetrations compared to nitrite cured animal protein. I only hear about cured meat and the biased negative dialogue.


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## smokensweet (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok i hope this link works. This was the feature. To whoever said cnn=fake news, stop it, grow up already.  To those who say they are using celery salt or something else please watch for yourself. They specifically say they arent. 
   And finally to those saying leave it to the masters, i may be just a journeyman but if inever advance from where i am now how will i ever become one. Encourage, dont discourage. Been smoking meats and curing for a dozen years, hundreds of kilos a month. Im not some kid playing around.


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## smokerjim (Jul 19, 2019)

smokensweet said:


> Ok i hope this link works. This was the feature. To whoever said cnn=fake news, stop it, grow up already.  To those who say they are using celery salt or something else please watch for yourself. They specifically say they arent.
> And finally to those saying leave it to the masters, i may be just a journeyman but if inever advance from where i am now how will i ever become one. Encourage, dont discourage. Been smoking meats and curing for a dozen years, hundreds of kilos a month. Im not some kid playing around.



link isn't working


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## smokerjim (Jul 19, 2019)

neve


smokerjim said:


> link isn't working


never mind it popped up thanks


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## gmc2003 (Jul 20, 2019)

smokensweet said:


> To whoever said cnn=fake news



It's called a sense of humor.

Chris


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## Bearcarver (Jul 20, 2019)

Interesting!!
Too much work for me, I think I'll keep using Tender Quick.
However I'm glad to see they use the same Hickory Smoke as I do, and the same Smoking Temp of "No higher than 130°".

Bear


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## smokin peachey (Jul 20, 2019)

Had some celery juice powder bacon this morning. Very tasty stuff .


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## smokerjim (Jul 20, 2019)

nice video, but I think i'll stick with my process, don't have the time or coolers for that.   peachy that's some good lookin bacon


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## PolishDeli (Jul 22, 2019)

Smokensweet,
Thanks for posting the link. 

Here is a good video from the Uni. of Kentucky’s College of Agriculture on making county ham.  They only use salt (8lb), sugar (2lb), pepper, and paprika. 

dr k,
There is a lot of good research into meat cuing by CJP.  Attached is just one paper which compares naturally and conventionally cured commercial meats.  Spoiler alert (pun intended)  “Many of the naturally cured processed meat products have been observed to support greater pathogen growth than the traditionally cured controls.”
I can't find anything that specifies nitrate type and relative concentrations though.  Even the MSDS doesn’t elucidate the situation (attached). 
I did learn that CJP comes in two “flavors.”  One is un-fermented and therefore contains nitrates.  The other is fermented and therefore contains nitrites. 


So, who is brave enough to take the all-natural DIY thing to the next level, and make their own potassium nitrate?

Here is a snippet from a confederate military document for inspiration:

“…an intimate mixture is then made of rotted manure, old mortar coarsely ground, or wood ashes together with leaves, straw, small twigs, branches… The heap is watered every week with the richest kinds of liquid manure, such as urine, dung-water, water of privies, cess-pools, drains…” [1]

[1] Instructions for the  manufacture of  saltpetre; Joseph Leconte, Professor of Chemistry and  Geology in South Carolina College. Published by authority of the executive council, under direction of  Col. James Chesnut, Jr., chief of military department. 1862.


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## smokensweet (Jul 28, 2019)

[hQUOTE="PolishDeli, post: 1978825, member: 211294"]Smokensweet,
Thanks for posting the link.

Here is a good video from the Uni. of Kentucky’s College of Agriculture on making county ham.  They only use salt (8lb), sugar (2lb), pepper, and paprika. 

dr k,
There is a lot of good research into meat cuing by CJP.  Attached is just one paper which compares naturally and conventionally cured commercial meats.  Spoiler alert (pun intended)  “Many of the naturally cured processed meat products have been observed to support greater pathogen growth than the traditionally cured controls.”
I can't find anything that specifies nitrate type and relative concentrations though.  Even the MSDS doesn’t elucidate the situation (attached).
I did learn that CJP comes in two “flavors.”  One is un-fermented and therefore contains nitrates.  The other is fermented and therefore contains nitrites.


So, who is brave enough to take the all-natural DIY thing to the next level, and make their own potassium nitrate?

Here is a snippet from a confederate military document for inspiration:

“…an intimate mixture is then made of rotted manure, old mortar coarsely ground, or wood ashes together with leaves, straw, small twigs, branches… The heap is watered every week with the richest kinds of liquid manure, such as urine, dung-water, water of privies, cess-pools, drains…” [1]

[1] Instructions for the  manufacture of  saltpetre; Joseph Leconte, Professor of Chemistry and  Geology in South Carolina College. Published by authority of the executive council, under direction of  Col. James Chesnut, Jr., chief of military department. 1862.[/QUOTE]


Thats a hard pass for me on the making your own saltpeter...


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## smokensweet (Jul 28, 2019)

daveomak said:


> If you use liquid smoke for flavoring...  It could be a worth while process...  The nitrite prevents botulism which can grow in a low oxygen environment like a smoke house...  Just refrigeration will dehydrate the meat helping to prevent growth of all kinds of nasties..   Unfortunately, the process is probably approved by the USDA which......  YOU WILL NEVER duplicate....
> Making bacon is soooo easy and fulfills a desire to produce quality, real world, old world bacon...
> If meat is smoked, it has nitrate/nitrite in it....
> Personally, I will NEVER alter my method to eliminate nitrite...  It's healthy and makes some awesome eats...
> Stick with your celery....  make 2nd rate bacon if that's your goal.....




Dave,  who are you referring to about making 2nd rate bacon?  This entire thread was supposed to be about bentons bacon which cures there bacon with only sugar and sea salt. No celery salt or celery juice powder whatever that is.  Bentons sells 1000’s of pounds of this per week. 
      I was hoping there would be an educated discussion about this process.  If you havent watched the video lunk i encourage you to do so.  Your comment regarding 2nd rate bacon seems kind of out of place.


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## smokin peachey (Jul 28, 2019)

Look at this BLT made with second rate bacon my daughter made for me. Wow was it awesome.


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## pc farmer (Jul 28, 2019)

smokin peachey said:


> View attachment 401704
> 
> 
> Look at this BLT made with second rate bacon my daughter made for me. Wow was it awesome.



Yum peach.


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## bill ace 350 (Jul 28, 2019)

smokensweet said:


> [hQUOTE="PolishDeli, post: 1978825, member: 211294"]Smokensweet,
> Thanks for posting the link.
> 
> Here is a good video from the Uni. of Kentucky’s College of Agriculture on making county ham.  They only use salt (8lb), sugar (2lb), pepper, and paprika.
> ...




that is an excellent video. 
I posted it some time ago, and was almost immediately told by a member here that I should use a Morton product. 
I will eventually try the method outlined in the video.

good stuff 


Thats a hard pass for me on the making your own saltpeter...[/QUOTE]


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## HalfSmoked (Jul 29, 2019)

Nice of your daughter Peachey.

Warren


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## smokin peachey (Jul 29, 2019)

HalfSmoked said:


> Nice of your daughter Peachey.
> 
> Warren


Thanks for the like and the BLT was very tasty


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## Bearcarver (Jul 29, 2019)

smokin peachey said:


> View attachment 401704
> 
> 
> Look at this BLT made with second rate bacon my daughter made for me. Wow was it awesome.




Looks Mighty Tasty, from the Den!!
Nice Job!
Like.

Bear


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## daveomak (Jul 29, 2019)

smokensweet said:


> Dave,  who are you referring to about making 2nd rate bacon?  This entire thread was supposed to be about bentons bacon which cures there bacon with only sugar and sea salt. No celery salt or celery juice powder whatever that is.  Bentons sells 1000’s of pounds of this per week.
> I was hoping there would be an educated discussion about this process.  If you havent watched the video lunk i encourage you to do so.  Your comment regarding 2nd rate bacon seems kind of out of place.



Sorry you think "MY OPINION" is out of place...  Benton's bacon is probably really good, to folks traveling through from the city..

You can use celery juice and liquid smoke...  It's probably better than some or most of the store bought bacon I've eaten...

I grew up eating bacon in the 1950's...  THAT WAS BACON ...  Now I try and duplicate those flavors and textures...

The 2nd rate "bacon" is referring to "MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE"...
Pork belly that does not have nitrite, will not have the defining pink color when cooked...  It will be a "pork cooked brown" color and it will not have that defining hammy / bacon flavor...
It will taste like salted pork that has been sweetened with brown sugar.....
FWIW, if it has that typical "pink" color, nitrite has been added...  Some regulations say, if it has less than 2% of an addition, it need not be defined in the ingredients category...  Since nitrite can be added at a rate up to 200 Ppm max. in pork belly as a rub, and 120 Ppm max. as a brine product, the nitrite may not have to be included in the ingredients....
The same goes for ham...  salted, sweetened pork... no ham flavor without nitrite..

My bacon and ham...  I very much prefer the flavor of a picnic ham as compared to the traditional hind quarter ham..  Probably not allowed to call the picnic a "ham" by purists... BUT...  If you can call a "pork butt" a pork butt and it comes from the front shoulder, that does give some credence to a picnic ham...
*(Credence* definition is - mental acceptance as true or real.*)*






	

		
			
		

		
	
.
	

		
			
		

		
	







FWIW, my recipe for ham is the best ham I have ever tasted...
Some folks on this forum sort of agree as it is the recipe
they now use for their hams... or the base for their recipe...












Disclaimer....   I ain't changing a thing to my recipes for ham and bacon
as I believe any other recipe would be 2nd rate.

.......


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## sfprankster (Jul 29, 2019)

Some of us prefer old world style, natural curing processes, over the use of chemicals from huge corporations. I don't trust the biased results of tests conducted by the same corporations, on their own products. If you do, eat all the GMO'd corn you possibly can. I've been told, Roundup has a mild, salty taste and is completely safe for human consumption. Well, the "safe for human consumption" part is the claim from Monsanto anyways. 


I make chemically free, nitrite and nitrate free bacon, and nothing else. I will not eat any bacon made with "pink" salt. But, to each their own...


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## daveomak (Jul 29, 2019)

Some "old world" curing processes used salt that had naturally occurring nitrate in it...  That's how the scientific community determined nitrates kill botulism, provide a distinctive flavor to the meats...


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## bill ace 350 (Jul 29, 2019)

sfprankster said:


> Some of us prefer old world style, natural curing processes, over the use of chemicals from huge corporations. I don't trust the biased results of tests conducted by the same corporations, on their own products. If you do, eat all the GMO'd corn you possibly can. I've been told, Roundup has a mild, salty taste and is completely safe for human consumption. Well, the "safe for human consumption" part is the claim from Monsanto anyways.
> 
> 
> I make chemically free, nitrite and nitrate free bacon, and nothing else. I will not eat any bacon made with "pink" salt. But, to each their own...





sfprankster said:


> Some of us prefer old world style, natural curing processes, over the use of chemicals from huge corporations. I don't trust the biased results of tests conducted by the same corporations, on their own products. If you do, eat all the GMO'd corn you possibly can. I've been told, Roundup has a mild, salty taste and is completely safe for human consumption. Well, the "safe for human consumption" part is the claim from Monsanto anyways.
> 
> 
> I make chemically free, nitrite and nitrate free bacon, and nothing else. I will not eat any bacon made with "pink" salt. But, to each their own...


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## flatbroke (Jul 29, 2019)

smokin peachey said:


> Had some celery juice powder bacon this morning. Very tasty stuff .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 nice. Under the carport?


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## nanuk (Aug 1, 2019)

So, just to clarify:

if you don't add Cure#1 or #2, BUT DO add nitrate/nitrite in a different form, you can call it Nitrate/Nitrite Free bacon.

And if you just salt/sugar the pork, you can call it bacon.

Have I got that correct?


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## nanuk (Aug 1, 2019)

smokensweet said:


> Here is a good video from the Uni. of Kentucky’s College of Agriculture on making county ham.  They only use salt (8lb), sugar (2lb), pepper, and paprika.




Wow..  interesting video.
That instructor would have failed the course I took.

it leaves some questions unanswered;

The term cure, on SMF means Either Cure #1 or #2.     In the video, he refers to the salt/sugar as "Cure".
Would that not be more accurate to be called a dry brine, or rub?

As they only salt about 40% or less of the surface, the time required for the salt to make it down through the rest of the meat has to be significant.    Does anyone know the failure rate for making "ham" this way?   
When I took my training, we were always warned the taint starts in the knee joint.  When we brine cured, we pumped our legs and pumped extra into the knee area.

I guess I've never had a "country ham" as all my ham experience has been a nitrate cured product. 
What colour is the meat?   with no nitrites, the meat must be a gray dull colour.  And if not, what makes it turn pink?


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## Fueling Around (Aug 1, 2019)

nanuk said:


> ...
> I guess I've never had a "country ham" as all my ham experience has been a nitrate cured product.
> What colour is the meat?   with no nitrites, the meat must be a gray dull colour.  And if not, what makes it turn pink?


Country ham is not pink nor dull.  It is dark due to the lengthy time from oink to plate.
Personally, I do not like country ham.  Way too salted for my preference.  Good flavor, but that salt ruined the experience.


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## smokerjim (Aug 2, 2019)

nanuk said:


> if you don't add Cure#1 or #2, BUT DO add nitrate/nitrite in a different form, you can call it Nitrate/Nitrite Free bacon.


what i've seen they call it uncured bacon, and says on the package no nitrites or nitrates added, but in the ingredients they use celery powder,juice, or celery salt


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## nanuk (Aug 3, 2019)

now THAT is just False Advertizing

Adding CJP IS adding nitrate/nitrite


What colour IS Country Ham?  Anyone got a good picture?


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## jogawa (Aug 9, 2019)

Link at the top worked well, good video.


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