# T-SPX and dried buttermilk powder in summer sausage?



## seadog92 (Feb 4, 2015)

I wanted to limit my cost initially in moving into making summer sausage.  I see that many recipes call for "Fermento" and a Bactoferm F-LC.  Can I use Buttermilk powder for the Fermento, and T-SPX for the F-LC?  I realize the two starter cultures are different, but I'm at a loss to know if T-SPX can be used in summer sausage.  Any comments?


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## crazymoon (Feb 4, 2015)

SD, the bactoferm products are used in dry cure sausages. I am assuming you are stuffing and smoking so those products aren't needed. Some folks use the buttermilk powder but I use fermento and don't know how the measurements would change.


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## rgautheir20420 (Feb 4, 2015)

Seadog92 said:


> I wanted to limit my cost initially in moving into making summer sausage.  I see that many recipes call for "Fermento" and a Bactoferm F-LC.  Can I use Buttermilk powder for the Fermento, and T-SPX for the F-LC?  I realize the two starter cultures are different, but I'm at a loss to know if T-SPX can be used in summer sausage.  Any comments?


Seadog, when I made my SS, I used FLC and dextrose to get the tang I think you're looking at. I fermented for 24 hours and it was nice. I think there's a chart somewhere that shows the fermentation speeds of the different cultures.


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## daveomak (Feb 4, 2015)

[h1]One you use below 75 and one you use above 80....   two different end results...  one acidifies and one does not....[/h1][h1]Sooooooooooo, what makes you think they are interchangeable...[/h1][h1]In my opinion, cost savings is NOT something you want to do when curing meats...  Perhaps you should stick to a recipe from a trusted source.....   buy the suggested products and continue on from there....[/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]#19009 Bactoferm T-SPX (Pediococcus pentosaceus & Staphylococcus xylosus)[/h1]
Open PDF file with more information on Bactoferm T-SPX.





*Due to the limited shelf life outside of a freezer, we can not ship this outside of North America.*

For slow/mild acidification. Less acidity and no sour flavor; enhances the aromatic flavor and appearance of fermented meats. Also assists in moisture removal and the breaking down of Nitrate into Nitrite for more efficient curing. If using T-SPX for traditional method of drying this culture will not provide food safety through lowering pH level but, it will help lower aW. Use for products needing at least one month's time for drying and do not ferment with this product over 75°F.

• Net Weight: 25g(per packet)
• Usage: 25g for 200kg(440 lbs)
• Instructions for making 10 lb. increments included.
• Storage: In Freezer (<2°F)
• Freeze Dried Culture

[h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]  [/h1][h1]#19012 Bactoferm F-LC (Pediococcus acidilactici, Lactobacillus curvatus, & Staphylococcus xylosus)[/h1]
Open PDF file with more information on Bactoferm F-LC





*Due to the limited shelf life outside of a freezer, we can not ship this outside of North America.*

A patented bioprotective culture of bacterial strains which protect the sausage product from Listeria contamination while being a versatile and effective culture for acidification. Can be used for slow, traditional fermentation when environment is near 80F and will also rapidly acidify in high fermentation (US Style) temperatures of near 115F. 25grams for 100 kg of meat.


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## rgautheir20420 (Feb 4, 2015)

Dave, both of those descriptions say the culture produces acidity though. TSPX says For slow/mild acidification and FLC says Can be used for slow, traditional fermentation when environment is near 80F and will also rapidly acidify in high fermentation termperatures. Am I missing something?


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## daveomak (Feb 4, 2015)

Yes but, you didn't read the rest of the description.....  One is a mild acidification....For slow/mild acidification. Less acidity and no sour flavor; doesn't protect against listeria etc.  

the other is ...

 A patented bioprotective culture of bacterial strains which protect the sausage product from Listeria contamination while being a versatile and effective culture for acidification.

A complete understanding of what the product does is very important when fermenting, curing meats....    temperatures are important....  

like cure #2 does not work at refer temps....  it works where bacteria are present so it can convert to nitrite... 46-50 is best....

Too many times folks "skim" through descriptions without reading and understanding what is happening...   

If you plan on fermenting at 60 degrees F, find a culture that works at 60 degrees F.   If you want a mild tang to the meat, there are cultures for that....   

All I'm trying to impress upon the readers is, Do your best to understand the products you are using...   substitution is permissible with some things.....  

In the case, the OP asked a question....  I provided an answer as best I could to his question....   2 different temp ranges and 2 different acidifications....   the 2 are not interchangeable....


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## hoity toit (Feb 4, 2015)

I use fermento. It is just dried buttermilk. Works good for me the last 10 years/. Starter cultures are more for longer fermented sausage types. 100 years ago no starter cultures existed, its relativaly a new thing brought about in the earlier part of this century say 30's--50's from what I have studied. They used to do what was called back-slopping, basically taking a little from an old batch and adding to a new batch, each sausage maker had their own bacteria strain growing and introduced it to future batches.that being said, different parts of the world had different flavors from their area.I am going to try using the cultures soon. I think it would make it a little better controlled condition for certain items...meaning the PH has to be there right on the button.

dexter


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## hoity toit (Feb 4, 2015)

most certainly, I use it all the time with good results


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## gary s (Feb 4, 2015)

Good Info

Gary


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## chewmeister (Feb 5, 2015)

I've used both Fermento and F-LC in summer sausage (not at the same time). The Bactoferm needs to be fermented at a warm temp (85-90 degrees) and needs 85-90 percent humidity. Too long a fermentation and the sausage can get real sour tasting. The Fermento doesn't need the special treatment like the cultures do, but you will get more of that tang with the F-LC. It's my understanding that the T-SPX is better suited for a slow dry cured sausage like a hard salami.


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## gary s (Feb 5, 2015)

I am sure learning more

Gary


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## hoity toit (Feb 7, 2015)

Getting back to the Fermento, Bactoferm and F-LC discussion,  I have been doing some reading today in a book called, "The Art Of Making Fermented Sausages", by Stanley Marianski & Adam Marianski, .

I believe DaveOmak was the one who recommended I read it. And boy was he right. thank you Dave.




Reading Chapters 8,9,10, _*I realize that I don't know squat*_ even though I have been making sausages over 35 years.The book explains the what, ifs and whys of the art of fermented and other sausage. It is a little too technical and scientific in some ways, but I can say I am much more educated after reading this publication. Especially the explanations of the different bacterias both good and bad, different methods, both with *AND without *starter cultures, and so much other good information my brain is about to pop. I will read this book cover to cover a couple of times and use it as a reference for years to come. Armed with this book and the other one by Rytek Kutas I am confident of the products I process and the safety of them. Please everyone, read this book, you will not be disappointed..I have gone back and re-read several parts of the book that I didn't understand the first time, and I now see the whole spectrum, or picture if you will, of how it all works and comes together. Wish I had done this years ago.













book.jpg



__ hoity toit
__ Feb 7, 2015


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## daveomak (Feb 7, 2015)

I don't recall recommending the book....  I will defer to Martin...   that's my best guess.....     but, thanks for thinking of me....


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## hoity toit (Feb 8, 2015)

DaveOmak said:


> I don't recall recommending the book....  I will defer to Martin...   that's my best guess.....     but, thanks for thinking of me....


If it wasn't you it was one of the other regulars on here,,,sorry for the mix up,


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## woody1951 (Apr 21, 2022)

seadog92 said:


> I wanted to limit my cost initially in moving into making summer sausage.  I see that many recipes call for "Fermento" and a Bactoferm F-LC.  Can I use Buttermilk powder for the Fermento, and T-SPX for the F-LC?  I realize the two starter cultures are different, but I'm at a loss to know if T-SPX can be used in summer sausage.  Any comments?


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## woody1951 (Apr 21, 2022)

I always ferment my summer sausage, and then cold smoke for two hours the following day, before finishing with heat. The T-SPX would be a disaster. I use the FRM-52, which is a pretty fast acting culture. 80 degrees is a good temperature for that. If you don't have a humidifier, and heat source, use a sheet pun with a raised rack, and cover tightly with plastic wrap. Make sure to put some water in the bottom of the pan. Then put in your oven with only the oven light on. The light will bump the temperature up some. I have used the T-SPX for dry salami, and it turned out excellent. The advantage with that culture is that you could go from start to finish in the basement with a humidifier. You never quit learning. Often, I read the forum, and people are just using the Ruhlman book, which is excellent, but is more of a primer than an advanced book. I like to experiment some. There are really no safety issues as long as the PH drops to 5.3, or below, and you maintain good sanitation.


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## daveomak (Apr 21, 2022)

FWIW...  I added dried buttermilk powder to my bread mix to get that sour taste...  Buttermilk is acidic...  It killed the bread yeast...  
It could severely affect your fermenting...


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## indaswamp (Apr 22, 2022)

woody1951 said:


> I always ferment my summer sausage, and then cold smoke for two hours the following day, before finishing with heat. The T-SPX would be a disaster. I use the FRM-52, which is a pretty fast acting culture. 80 degrees is a good temperature for that. If you don't have a humidifier, and heat source, use a sheet pun with a raised rack, and cover tightly with plastic wrap. Make sure to put some water in the bottom of the pan. Then put in your oven with only the oven light on. The light will bump the temperature up some. I have used the T-SPX for dry salami, and it turned out excellent. The advantage with that culture is that you could go from start to finish in the basement with a humidifier. You never quit learning. Often, I read the forum, and people are just using the Ruhlman book, which is excellent, but is more of a primer than an advanced book. I like to experiment some. *There are really no safety issues* as long as the PH drops to 5.3, or below, and you maintain good sanitation.


...and the proper amount of salt is used.....


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## zwiller (Apr 22, 2022)

I tried dried buttermilk/Fermento as a sub for fermenting but found the flavor lacking.  Not sure what thread but I picked up a trick thanks to 

 BGKYSmoker
.  He had used fresh sauerkraut juice to ferment and it got me thinking...  I tried ACTIVE buttermilk and yogurt and both have worked great for my purposes and keeps the cost of entry low compared to cultures.  There's still sugar/dextrose needed.  I don't really notice any difference between buttermilk done at room temp vs yogurt at higher temp (95F).


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