# simple question, where to put temp probe in butt



## iceshark (Jan 21, 2010)

Throwing butt on MES tonight. Do you put probe in top down or side of butt?


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## oldschoolbbq (Jan 21, 2010)

put it in sideways to the center of the cut, before you start the smoke;then close the lid and leave it closed until it gets to 190*F or the bone pulls out-wrap in foil and rest.The bone in is the best,simple and accurate


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## travcoman45 (Jan 21, 2010)

Don't matter, thickest part a the meat away from bone an fat pockets cause they'll give ya a balogna readin.


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## mballi3011 (Jan 22, 2010)

I always put the probe into the thickest part of the meat and let her rip.


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## the dude abides (Jan 22, 2010)

Do NOT insert your probe before you start the smoke. You're introducing bacteria into the meat. It's going to be a long smoke anyway. So wait a few hours then insert the probe.  

After that travcoman and mballi got ya covered.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

Being federal food safety certified I would have to disagree.  This goes with the age old thought you should salt water bath chicken and pat dry before cooking.  Both not needed.

The simple reason is if your getting above the 140 degree safety zone and then cooking to proper min temp. In this case approx 160 for pork, then finishing at well above this then you have destroyed any harmful bacteria that may have been on outside of meat.  Remember that cooking to proper temps is your safety friend.

Do a search on the topic should you wash poultry or meats before cooking and you will find many FDA findings that you SHOULD NOT and that if you do you may have more problems with contamanation of surrounding areas near sink then if you just went and cooked to proper temp.

Another example would be stuffing a turkey. That stuffing is full of the inner turkeys harmful bacteria and is only safe when cooked to temp or above. 

Thanks


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## chisoxjim (Jan 22, 2010)

I gave up on using a  probe,  for a 5# and up butt/shoulder I dont bother taking a temp reading until around the 9 hour mark.   Then I use an instant read thermo.


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## smokeguy (Jan 22, 2010)

You always want to put it into the thickest part of the meat because that is the last to get to the temperature you're looking for. You can measure how deep by holding it on the outside of the meat and estimating what halfway would be, then put your fingers there. When you stick it into the meat for real, stick it in until your fingers are right above the meat. Don't have it touching a bone if there is one.

I'm not going to get into the "how quickly do you put it in" debate because there are people with a whole lot more knowledge about that than me, but that said, you can get around all of the arguments, on bigger hunks of meat anyway, by just being a cheap bastid like me. The longer you wait to put in your probe, the longer your batteries will last!


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## the dude abides (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm NOT certified so I won't argue.  But isn't there an FDA rule about breaking the intact muscle before the outside of the meat has reached the 140*F (now I believe it has been changed 135*F) and held at that temperature for 30 minutes?


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## pignit (Jan 22, 2010)

It's still good practice. You do introduce outside bacteria to the inside of the meat by probing before your first half inch reaches 140 and in a piece of meat like a butt your ok to put the probe in at the beginning of the smoke..... but lets say especially in the winter... your smoking temp drops below what your wanting and your internal doesn't get to 140 in the safety zone.. it could make the difference in throwing the meat away... or finishing it up and eatin it.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

gThe muscle tissue issue is derived from the mad cow disease issue mainly and would be a beef issue. However there is some argument on pork as well with tric bacteria. However there has been almost zero tric cases in past 15 years with the better food safety used compared to when most of use were kids. Still fair enough to be safe about it.

As for the 40-140 zone in winter smokes. That would be a reason not to push bacteria deep in meat. However I am in Washinton and we are fortunate to be having a El Nino very mild winter, in the 50's. My meat went from 43 to 140 at 225 temp in my MES in just over 2 hours and now is holding at stalled 149 degrees. So at limits and should be safe. I will though use your advice from now on and wait. Any colder outside and I might have been in the danger zone too long for comfort.
Thanks guys.


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## seenred (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow this thread has sparked a lively debate...I love it when this happens, its good to share different ideas and viewpoints.  That being said, I have started doing exactly Jim does with my butts.  I know my instant read probe is accurate, and I don't have to check the temp with it until many hours into the smoke.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

Point and advice well taken.  My butt is only 6lbs so it reached 140 at 2 hours and I am using a steady 225 with my MES so no worry about smoker temp drop unless I open door. (I dont)


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## pignit (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry man but I have to disagree with you on this. I've been doin a lot of reading lately on food safety and curing and bacteria living on the surface of meat has been an issue way before mad cow. These bacteria live on the surface of everything. Even dirt. And even though salmonella and E. Coli are main culprits in food poisoning... botulism can be reproduced in the smoking environment if precautions aren't taken. This is an issue with pork, beef and poultry as well as fruits and vegetables.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

You absolutly right! Its the 135 degree USDA issue that is due to mad cow muscle disease.
That said I pulled up the FDA page and it states that MOST bacteria will be killed when cooked to proper temps. Almost all will be killed when cooked to 190. However there are HEAT STABLE bad guys that thrive at any heat and can make you ill.

So I will head the advice to probe later from now on. This time with stable MES temp and small 6lb butt we were 140 soon enough.

Thanks


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## pignit (Jan 22, 2010)

That's what we are all here for... to learn. 
PS.... is a parasitic disease caused by eating raw or undercooked pork or wild game infected with the larvae of a species of roundworm Trichinella spiralis, commonly called the trichina worm. Not a bacteria. (Wikipedia)


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

Thats why I love this site
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





By the way, I am not expert. My job requires me to be Fed certifyed in food handling and safety. Just going by memory and their website. I do remember now that they goverment takes lots of pride in reduction onf Tric cases by that parasite to almost none for years in USA. Thats a good thing


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## chisoxjim (Jan 22, 2010)

Cool,

I started doing them this way for a few reasons(none of which are food safety related):

1) I broke my probe and havent replaced it
2) I dont have to worry about the inevitable stall as I am well past that point when I take the temp.
3) experience,  knowing how long butts/shoulders take I just leave em alone and let the smoker do its job.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

What is interesting is if you do a search on the web you find no information on food safety regarding the use of a temp probe and even more concerning is my Maverick no my Taylor user information warns of possible harmful bacteria when not used properly. 

Maybe someone needs to get them to put this in there manuals. Safety is key!

Thanks again [email protected]!

PS. My Butt is not at 162 cooking for 5 hours in my MES. Hope it slows down. Don't want it done too early. My fish coolers are dirty and I plan on using the styrofoam cooler my Kansas city steaks shipped in to foil and rest it in for an hour. Want to eat about 4-5pm.

But 6.25 lbs cooking at 225 in MES


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## beer-b-q (Jan 22, 2010)

I would suggest reading these posts by bbally which were covered back in December.

This thread will tell you basically everything you need to know and the man explaining it is 
both a_ ServSafe Instructor_ and a _HACCP Instructor_.
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/for...t=72852&page=2

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/for...ad.php?t=86620

Here you can get the 2009 USDA Food Safety Guide from his site.
http://prochefblog.com/public_pics/f...09foodcode.pdf


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## 9manfan (Jan 22, 2010)

I now wait until about 5 hours into the smoke and then insert the probe, works good for me,,,,


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## the dude abides (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks Paul.  This is the thread I could not locate.


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## iceshark (Jan 22, 2010)

I learned from 2 of these guys. Very good read. Thank you. Altough I still maintain the chance with the probe must be so minimal or there would be some case study found on the web or in writing. Plus the temp equip manufacture companys legal depts would darn sure have it somewhere in there manuals. 

However safe is safe so I will take your information and use it. No need being the first case study.


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## bbally (Jan 23, 2010)

I absolutely love what all you guys have learned and can apply in the correct application.  It is nice to know that things we discuss here are included in your methodology for making your smokes safer.

Not to throw a wrench in anything, but if the meat is going to pass through the danger zone in less then 4 hours it is correct you "could" insert the probe at the beginning.  But we also use "Best Practices" in HACCP to ensure food safety, and the HACCP best practice is to wait til the outside passes through the danger zone for 45 minutes prior to inserting the probe.

But it is truly cool to see the different techniques hashed out and included in your food safety routines!!  SMOKE ON!

I always wait cause if it cools off fast in Colorado I can exceed 4 hours on an intact muscle in the smoker.


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## the dude abides (Jan 23, 2010)

Thanks bbally for all your guidance on food safety issues.


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## ddave (Jan 23, 2010)

I'll second that!! 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave


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## beer-b-q (Jan 23, 2010)

Thanks Bob the input of your knowledge is invaluable to a site like this...


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## mulepackin (Jan 23, 2010)

All good information. Safety cannot be overemphasized. I do have one thing I would like to add or more correctly ask. If you are going to cite a reference, i.e. a food safety website, or manual, etc. please provide the link, or the specific manual, or some means by which we can check this info for ourselves. Speaking for myself, and I suspect others, I would like to see the reference, evaluate it for myself, and make informed decisions on these matters.


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## ciolli (Jan 23, 2010)

Great thread. I learned a lot about probing and such reading this. Sounds like it's one of those things that 99 times out of a 100 you won't have any problems, but still is a best practice.

While we're on the topic, how does everyone clean their smoker/grill grates? Do you just burn it off, and wire brush? Being a pellet burner, I have the luxury of adjusting heat easily, so i normally just crank it up right off the bat and then back it down when i put the meat on. Is this what everyone does?


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## deltadude (Jan 23, 2010)

DANG!  I have been reading all the head lines about all those sick BBQ competition judges must have been 1000 cases a year.  Hell you walk around any Q competition you will see probes galore sticking out of every kind of smoke rig and some outlaw smoking dudes even have 2 probes in their meat.  Just can't trust one bacteria infested probe, better using two!

But alas, all that probe worry, is going to pass as we all know every competitor will stop probing before that meat hits the smoke, and wait until after whatever temp and condition is suppose to be right.  We all can count on that, RIGHT!

One problem who is going to tell all those injectors to stop injecting pre-cook?


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## tasunkawitko (Jan 23, 2010)

i was wondering when someone was going to mention the lack of sick BBQ judges all across america - and the injectors. 

points, deltadue, points - but i must admit, i still like the idea of "disinfecting" the probe (or injector) by stirring the ice in my tequila with it first!


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## ddave (Jan 23, 2010)

Um . . . okay . . . do you know *for a fact* that they probed it prior to placing it in the smoker??  Cause on the Pitmasters show, I've never seen them place a piece of meat with a probe in it on the smoker. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





They don't need to stop injecting. If they inject, it is no longer "intact muscle" and they need to get it above 140° internal in four hours.  Which is probably not a problem since most of them cook at a minimum of 250° smoker temp and many higher than that.

Dave


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## deltadude (Jan 23, 2010)

Food safety is NO joke!  People do get sick and some even die because of bad practices.  I recently read about Packers and Grinders of hamburger.  Packers are suppose to test for e-coli and other stuff, they ship out their various grades of meat to Grinders who will turn the various meats into hamburger.  PROBLEM, most packers will NOT sell their meat to Grinders who test for e-coli and other stuff, this is NOT fiction it is FACT.  Yet the Government doesn't change how business is done.  (buy the way Costco is one of the few Grinders that test every source of meat for their hamburger).

If that piece of pork didn't get to 160 because of winter temps and your smoker isn't up to the job, it is your responsibility to get that piece of meat into the oven and get it up to the correct temps and finish that meat properly.  OR  you will have to throw away meet.

As I said in my Turkey from Hell smoke, it was in the danger zone too long, and it went into the oven and stayed there hours longer than any turkey I ever cooked.  The breast were all that was done, so I cut them out and finished the rest of the bird in another 2 hours.  Every time I served that meat I made sure I heated it too 160.   I am saying I take this all serious.

But I refuse to turn into Howie Mandel with mysophobia (fear of germs).
Therefore read the health stuff Jeff has posted in the Food Safety forum. It is your responsibility to make the correct application.


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## deltadude (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm smoking a pork butt right now.  That probe was first hit with ammonia rinsed, and then put in a pot of boiling water to test for accuracy, the pot is turned off and cools while I finish prep the butt.  It is then inserted, straight from the pot.

As for who knows when or what happens to those probes at competition, that wasn't the point to try and analyze food handling at bbq competitons.  That comment is tongue in cheek, with a bit of wake up and smell the coffee.


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## pignit (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm sure there have been a few judges end up on the john the next day because of careless handling.... one of the bad parts about being a judge I'd say.
Point is... there are specific guidelines for safe food preparation and handling. I don't think anyone here is being a Howie Mandell... just passin on good solid information. What each person practices is up to that individual and they need to make the call on that...


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## ddave (Jan 23, 2010)

So the probe is very clean.  But what if the outside of the meat has bacteria growing on it?  You have then pushed it into the meat.

Unless you've butchered and processed the animal yourself, you have no idea really what it's temperature history is.  You assume it was properly refrigerated and handled but you don't really know.  So waiting to insert the probe seems like pretty cheap insurance to me.

Of course I guess you could swab the outside of the meat with tequila. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Dave


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## deltadude (Jan 23, 2010)

Point well taken, except I'm cooking that old shoe until it is nice and tender and 200º.  Now that takes care of about 99.5% of the lil boggers.  If there happens to be one those that can withstand most heat, then there isn't much that would change that outcome.  When you know that is happening just let Mikey eat it.

PS  I'm not trying to win any argument here, I am no authority don't claim to be, even though the Q competition comment is made in fun, it is a legitimate observation.


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## tasunkawitko (Jan 23, 2010)

there are two facts in play, here. the first is that everyone at these competitions is cooking their meat far above 160 degrees. the second is that i haven't seen any headlines of team members or judges dropping like flies.

as someone in the insurance business, i can assure you that if there were a real and life-threatening danger from barbecue (which is the oldest form of cooking in the world), these events wouldn't be happening very often, if at all. every small-town ribfest straight up to the memphis-in-may orgy wouldn't be able to afford the insurance, waiver or no waiver. how many teams show up for the american royal in kansas city? 500? averaging 4 members to a team? plus another 500 judges? 

a case can be made for BBQ joints, because they have to be FDA compliant to be in business (unfortunately, the average, minimum-wage, high-school-aged employee probably doesn't take the time to read all 700 pages - which is exactly the reason why i prefer to handle my own barbecue), but when you throw BBQ competitions, including official, unofficial, formal, informal etc. into the mix, you're going to find that statistic sticking out like a sore thumb.

having said all this, i will agree wholeheartedly that there is no reason NOT to be as safe as possible. i don't think anyone is going to recommend rolling a butt around in the dirt, then scraping the probe through a cat litter box before inserting it into the meat (gross, i know, but hopefully the point is made). what some of us are saying is that it is entirely possible to OVERTHINK this stuff and that is exactly what is going on in some of these discussions. 

safe? absolutely! FDA guidelines? you bet, if you decide they work best for you! but get all the information, read it for yourself, and then make your own decisions - don't let someone else, ANYONE else, do your thinking for you. do the homework.

bottom line - we're cooking meat here, not building the space shuttle.

another bottom line - if it ain't fun, then there ain't much point, and there isn't much fun to be had living in fear of something that is dead at 160 degrees - nor is there any point.


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## pandemonium (Jan 23, 2010)

i cant believe were arguing over when to probe meat? come on i'm paranoid but that's just ridiculous, i will take my chances, anyone with me? live a little.


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## tasunkawitko (Jan 23, 2010)

aw, shucks, pandy - this ain't no argument, it's a lively discussion! if you want to see an argument, just go to a hunting forum and ask which is best, a .270 or a .30/06!


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## pignit (Jan 23, 2010)

Are we arguing?  What part is being overthunked here. Simply stated... if you inject or probe or marinade or brine your meat... you must stay within the 40 to 140 degree in 4 hour internal temp or you risk illness. If you don't then you are within the intact muscle rule. Regardless of when you decide to put the probe in... simple. A very basic and important rule to live by when learning the art of smokin meat. I'm pretty sure that's what we are all saying here in different languages.


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## pandemonium (Jan 23, 2010)

i just think some people overthink things man life is hard enough without worrying about meat probes, lol look at bizarre foods show meat hanging in the sun in veitname and they are fine haha


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## pignit (Jan 23, 2010)

Yeah.... and you take a bite of that with your American intestines and see how sick you get..... whew..... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






I saw a guy on TV eat raw chicken once too.... good Lord. There are a lot of factors that come into play with all these safety issues. The guidelines are just that... guidelines. They are there to try and keep everyone safe... from young children to older folks. I'm one of those better safe than sorry guys.... do a little research and see where bacteria live... how fast they grow when you give them what they like.......  and then how sick you can get from ingesting them. If I'm going to give anyone advice it's going to be the safest methods that have been proven to work.


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## travcoman45 (Jan 23, 2010)

.30-06


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## fencesitter (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't want to hijack the food safety thread here, but back to the original question- where to place the probe?

I can understand how you probably want to place the probe in the thickest part of the meat, but is that absolutely necessary? I mean, with the low and slow method of cooking that smoking is, I assume at some point the meat starts to be pretty uniform in temperature.

I mean, when you hit a stall, I'd assume that the temp is pretty uniform- it's not like one part of the butt is stalled and the other parts are rising in temp, is it?

Yeah, after it passes that stall, there'll be a thermal gradient through the meat again, but I can't imagine it being all that much. If you're aiming for 190 while cooking at 225 over the course of hours, I can't imagine there being much more than a 5 degree difference between one part of the butt and another, except for possibly the very surface of the meat.

When you try to take into account carry over and then evening out when you foil, towel, and cooler it, how close to the center do you really have to be?


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## tasunkawitko (Jan 23, 2010)

travco - .30/06 would be my choice too, if i had to choose between the two ~ ;)

fencesitter, thanks for bringing the discussion back on track. i'll offer my opinion and thoughts on the matter, then i am sure others will follow:

regardless of WHEN you place the probe, the WHERE is easy: you place it in the middle of the meat where there is no fat and no bone nearby to give you a false reading. the reason for this is found in the basic fundamental of barbecue: 

there is cooking meat until it is done, and cooking meat until it is barbecue. technically, at 160, the meat is done (and all the little cooties are dead); but the fact remains that there is a lot of connective tissue, fat and collagen left in the meat. this is the stuff that makes pork shoulder, brisket, ribs etc the nasty, cheap cuts of meat that they are - they are hard to cook normally because of all of this stuff. if you were to set them in the oven at normal roasting temperatures, or fry them in a pan at pan-frying temperatures, they will be done long before this "stuff" breaks down, melts or whatever you want to call it - in fact,they would be burned AND dry as a bone, not to mention tough as an old boot.

by cooking large masses of meat at lower temperatures, you are giving the meat time to break down all the stuff while still remaining moist and not getting too hot too fast; in fact, the melting of the collagen and fat actually contributes to a moist, tender finished product that is now barbecue. this is why traditional barbecue meats are the large, fatty gristly things such as pork shoulder, brisket etc. ribs also fit into this category due to their make-up.

with brisket and pork shoulder, you are going up around 185 and in the case of pulled pork, up around 200 degrees. this is far past "technical" done but right into "barbecue" zone where all of your connective tissue/collagen and most of your fat has rendered out. this is the difference between "barbecue" and grilling, which is done hot and fast for tender cuts of meat such as steas, etc.

now, back to the probe. you want to place the probe in the thickest aprt of the center as mentioned above because this is the last point in the meat that will be done with its cooking, melting, and general transformation from meat to barbecue.

hope that answers your question. there is a whole lot of science involved but as i said before, we're cooking meat here, not building a space shuttle. my best advice is to put your engineering books away, start a fire and slap some rub on something. a whole lot more will be learned by doing it rather than reading about it.


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## ddave (Jan 23, 2010)

But wouldn't that be fine as long as you *cooked the meat to 195°*??  I've lost count of how many times you have posted that advice.







Dave


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## bbally (Jan 29, 2010)

Not follow the safety practices and getting away with it does not negate their requirement nor their effectiveness. It just shows that there is a whole lot of dumb still running around masquarading as scientific fact, when it is not.

Odwalla picked up dropped apples up off the ground for years. Inspite of being warned in 1995 that the possibility existed they buried it and continued to do it "the old fashion way" as the marketing types felt the past safety record showed they were OK. Food Scientist resigned over it, and....... wait for it....

in 1996 they successfully killed people due to contamination of their apple juice. Proving the old way we do things is dangerous, and because it has not reared its head yet... it will with time.


Only if the safer methodology are demanded. If a Laissez-faire attitude is adopted toward food safety is allowed to be the norm, it will continue until the first judge is killed. As with the apple juice it will happen, just a matter of when unless food safety moves forward.

Actually injecting meats and placing in probes early is only a problem if the temperature is going to be pulled and the 4 hour danger zone may be violated. Most injected meats are throughly cooked well above those dangerzone temps and most methods cook them up that way well within the time zone required.

As for policing the world on food safety, not our job, but putting out the correct information is:

Odwalla wrote 9 big checks because they had no legs to stand on in court. Allowing bad information to pass as fact or worse yet supporting bad information, has the same legal precident... it sets you up to have your assets attached in a civil court of law. Which if you own nothing is not a big deal, but if you do......


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## bbally (Jan 29, 2010)

Perhaps one of the better summaries I have read on the probe insertion question.  Very nicely said!


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## phil brown (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm glad to see so much interest in this subject.  Most people, myself included, believe barbecuing is supposed to be a laid-back affair. I believe that food safety is important enough to intrude on this sacred ritual, but it really doesn't require much effort to be safe - only a bit of forethought.

To address the original question: the reason for placing the probe as deep as possible in the meat (and away from bone) is so that you'll be measuring the _last_ part to reach final temperature.  You're not actually measuring the final temperature; the meat will only reach that after being removed from heat and the temperature of the entire mass is allowed to equalize.  While the center of your butt is at 190, the outside is 215 or higher (depending on weight and the temperature of your smoker).  When you foil it and place it in a cooler, you allow heat from the outside to be conducted to the inside; this is the same process as cooking, but without adding any more heat.  You'd be surprised to find that many restaurants do not cook to the point that the internal temperature is at a "safe" level, but that the meat has enough total heat that it will average out to the proper temperature after resting.

As an aside, probes stuck into cold meat are very common in commercial kitchens - without violating FDA regulations.  Most of the time, meat is cooked considerably faster than we do in the backyard.  Time spent in the "danger zone" is usually very short.  If your setup does not allow the outer meat to reach 140°F in two or three hours, then you are harboring higher concentrations of bacteria than you should be comfortable with.

Now, if you're willing to wait a little bit before placing the probe in the meat, there's good news: just about everything we do contributes to sterilizing the outside of the meat quickly.
Changing the pH of the surface.  In processing, alkaline scalding water kills bacteria faster.  In our use, acidic rubs and mops have a similar effect.  Yellow mustard is also acidic.
Adding wood smoke.  Wood smoke is an excellent antiseptic.  The flavor we all love so much is derived from the same thing that has saved people from food poisoning for millenia.  Clearly a win-win situation.
Holding consistent temperature.  Heat-sensitive bacteria such as E. Coli and Salmonella don't necessarily need to be heated to very high temperatures, but to be held at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time.  For example, beef held at 140°F for 35.6 minutes will see 6.5 decimal reductions in Salmonella - enough that it is considered safe to eat.  As long as we're not peeking in on the smoke too often, the outside of the meat is brought up slowly and then held at high temperature for hours.  Those that sear their briskets before smoking probably kill everything off at the beginning!
That was rather long-winded, but poisoning your guests is a big deal.  Be safe, and enjoy.


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## the dude abides (Jan 29, 2010)

Hey Phil,
You sound like a very informed person who we all could learn a lot from. Especially in the area of food safety, which is obviously a "hot button" issue around here.

I went to look to see who you were and noticed you didn't stop into "roll call" and introduce yourself. If you would, please do so, I'm sure everyone would appreciate learning more about you and how you're so knowledgeable about this subject. Your input will be highly valuable around here.


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