# Food Safety Chit-Chat



## jp61 (Mar 31, 2014)

Let's have a civilized discussion here so that people who actually look at this forum wanting to learn more and understand food safety better can do so.

*Fresh Pork: (not ground)*

1- The "official" Safe Minimum Cooking Temperature for fresh pork is 145°F IT (internal temperature) with 3 minutes rest time. Is this correct?

2- Bacteria grow fastest between 40°-140°F. Is this correct?

3- What kills bacteria on or in meat when smoking? A specific heat intensity and length of time they're exposed to it. Is this correct?

4- Some bacteria can penetrate muscle tissue. Is this correct?  If so, how deep? ???

5- Some bacterial spores can survive temperatures of 212°F+ at sea level Is this correct?

*Smoking a pork butt most of us use some type of thermometer to determine when it's done to our taste.*

5- Some of us, at times insert the temperature probe at the beginning of the smoke and some wait 2-3 hours into the smoke before they do so Is this true?  (IMO, yes)

6- Always have to assume there are live bacteria at least on the surface of the meat Is this correct?

7- Inserting temperature probe into raw meat is considered unsafe  Is this correct?

8- Inserting temperature probe into meat that has a minimum surface temperature of 145°F is considered safe. Is this correct?

If, pork associated bacteria are killed at 145°F with 3 min. rest, does it make a difference when smoking a pork butt if the bacteria are on the surface, on the interior or how many there is when, the IT of the pork at some point goes over 145°F and stays above for hours up to a final temperature of 205°F IT for many of us? (some pull it at a lower temp) Dead is dead, no?

-


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## beeflover (Apr 1, 2014)

Ive seen other threads here about that you should just ask in one of those.


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## deansomers (Apr 1, 2014)

Heres  several take ur pick

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/121168/40-140-in-4-hours-discussion

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/114057/40-140

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/115543/4-hour-140

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/101982/40-to-140-in-under-4

No need to keep starting more threads about this ESP. if you are trying 2 cut down confusion.


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## jp61 (Apr 1, 2014)

This isn't the kind of discussion I had in mind.

I realize "food safety" is a complex issue, sensitive topic here on SMF and has been discussed many times in the past.

In my opinion, food safety should always be top priority for anyone who eats and should be discussed more frequently.

I understand the SMF' 40°-140° in 4 hr rule. That doesn't mean food safety is crystal clear in my mind. I must be all alone in that regard. 

The basics I get, I was looking for more detailed information and facts, that's all.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 2, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Let's have a civilized discussion here so that people who actually look at this forum wanting to learn more and understand food safety better can do so.
> 
> *Fresh Pork: (not ground)*
> 
> ...


Yes, these questions have been asked before but being an important and open forum, it is acceptable for members with any questions to ask again. I have tried to make things clear but as in many situations opinions vary, guidelines change and with any government bureaucracy justifying their budgets, studies will show that," what is the best thing in the world for you today...Is deadly tomorrow. " Educate yourself and thanks for your participation in a great forum...JJ


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## disco (Apr 2, 2014)

Good thread, questions and response.

Thanks.

Disco


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## jp61 (Apr 2, 2014)

Thanks for the answers above Chef JJ!

To whomever,

- If ground pork is handled in an all-around  safe manner along with a whole muscle, why does (should) the ground pork need to be cooked to a minimum of 160°F IT + 3 min. rest and the whole muscle to a minimum of 145°F IT + 3 min. rest?

- Ground pork comes from where?*  *Whole muscle(s), trimmings  or both?

- Always assume there are live microorganisms in play when dealing with raw pork.

Pork has been ground and now there are many small pieces of pork, much larger surface area and bacteria mixed in. If there isn't any bacteria inside of the whole muscle(s), then there shouldn't be (much) more bacteria mixed into the ground pork than what the total bacteria was on the surface(s) of the whole muscle(s) prior to grinding?








  What am I missing?


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## smoking b (Apr 2, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Thanks for the answers above Chef JJ!
> 
> To whomever,
> 
> ...


The bacteria are now distributed throughout the meat instead of being just on the surface where they are easily killed. They are "sheltered" so to speak on the inside & have a longer time to multiply & create toxins before the IT gets high enough to kill them. Hopefully that makes sense the way I explained it...


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## jeepdiver (Apr 2, 2014)

Also, Most of the ground meat has touched the grinding blade and other surfaces of the grinder.  Any bacteria on the surface of the meat now attaches to those surfaces and some comes off on the previous clean internal muscle as it is exposed. 

That being said I have always put my probe in early and will continue to do so.  If a bad butt takes me out it was probably my time anyway


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 3, 2014)

Smoking B said:


> The bacteria are now distributed throughout the meat instead of being just on the surface where they are easily killed. They are "sheltered" so to speak on the inside & have a longer time to multiply & create toxins before the IT gets high enough to kill them. Hopefully that makes sense the way I explained it...





JeepDiver said:


> Also, Most of the ground meat has touched the grinding blade and other surfaces of the grinder. Any bacteria on the surface of the meat now attaches to those surfaces and some comes off on the previous clean internal muscle as it is exposed.


*Both **good answers.  *

*My local Grocery Stores Butcher will custom cut and grind any meat to order. They have a single large #32 Grinder They get very busy so there is no time to breakdown and sanitize the grinder between customers. It is not uncommon to follow the grinding of Chicken for one customer with the grinding of Pork or Beef for the next... So there is any number and type of bacteria beyond what was on the surface of that chunk of Pork Butt that just got ground. *

*Remember the USDA Temps are guidelines designed to keep the majority of cooks safe regardless of their level of cooking and food safety knowledge...*

*Under most circumstances, even with a little Chicken mixed in from the previous grind, a batch of custom ground Pork can be cooked to 140-145**°F, Medium, (See info below) without issue because WE understand food safety and handled/cooked the meat properly...BUT...There are many people who don't have our knowledge. They will pick up the groceries, then make a couple more stops before getting home and putting the meat in the freezer. The day they are serving, they Defrost on the counter, that's the way Grandma did it, then start cooking. Fortunately they see the label says " Cook to a minimum internal temperature of 165°F ", follow that guideline and all is fine. *

*Copied from the following... *http://www.foodsafetywatch.org/factsheets/salmonella/

The majority of _Salmonella_  serotypes are not particularly heat resistant and are usually killed by pasteurisation processes. D-values are typically 1 – 10 mins at 60 ºC/140°F and less than 1 min at 70 ºC/158°F, with typical z-values of 4 – 5 ºC. However, there are some important exceptions. Some rare serotypes such as _S_. Senftenberg are much more heat resistant (approximately 10 – 20 times) than others at high water activities, and some foods with high fat content or low water activity reduce the effectiveness of heat treatments that would normally destroy the cells.

*Ground Pork is typically made from Trim. Whole muscle can be sold at a much higher price.*

*If you buy a Pork Butt and grind it yourself, yes the only bacteria is that which was on the surface and now is mixed through out the meat. Our safety concern is still one of proper handling. There are some types of bacteria that do not multiply or at least not well, in the Oxygen rich environment of the meats surface...BUT... Now that you ground the pork these types of bacteria are now in the mostly Oxygen free environment of the Interior! They are also surrounded by plenty of Food and Moisture. All that is needed is to spend some time in the Danger Zone of 40**° to 140°F and there is rapid growth and in some case dangerous Toxin production.**  *


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## jp61 (Apr 3, 2014)

Smoking B said:


> The bacteria are now distributed throughout the meat instead of being just on the surface where they are easily killed. They are "sheltered" so to speak on the inside & have a longer time to multiply & create toxins before the IT gets high enough to kill them. Hopefully that makes sense the way I explained it...


Edit: What's important is to not allow cross-contamination to happen in the first place.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 4, 2014)

In general the Salmonella Bacteria will die once the water in spattered juices dries out, it does not form endospores. The concept of not washing Chicken and Cross-contamination is very valid. Chicken is usually packed with a lot of liquid that splashes easily. So, many feel washing will spread that bacteria to the sink and surrounding area and any foods, Lettuce, Etc, will be contaminated when they are washed. In general I do not wash Meat unless it needs it such as, it is slightly slimey, has an unusual odor or I am removing it from a liquid or dry cure. I am then careful to limit contamination followed by cleaning and sanitizing.

Food Safety requires diligence. Learn all you can about Food Handling, think of a work plan and follow it. Clean off your work space, rack full of clean dishes should be in the cabinet, not sitting where they can get contaminated.  Wash all other food items before the bird or any meat. Clean and sanitize the sink and surrounding area after use, 1Tbs Bleach per Gallon of Water works nicely especially if allowed to soak the area for 30 seconds or more before wiping. Using equipment in good working order cook / smoke meat at proper temps, 225°F or higher unless Cured. Get the meat to a safe Internal Temp of 140°F in 4 hours or less if the surface has been broken. And lastly,  properly Cooling, Storing and Reheating leftovers. 

Using common sense and some knowledge, great food is in your future...JJ


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## DanMcG (Apr 4, 2014)

Thanks for all the great responses Chef JJ. One can't have enough knowledge of food safety, and the occasional discussion like this is a good refresher!


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## davidhef88 (Apr 4, 2014)

beeflover said:


> Ive seen other threads here about that you should just ask in one of those.





DeanSomers said:


> Heres  several take ur pick
> 
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/121168/40-140-in-4-hours-discussion
> http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/114057/40-140
> ...



If you have ANY questions, especially when it comes to food safety, feel free to ask. The replies I quoted above are not the norm for responses here, nor do I like them. If members are going to respond to threads with a negative attitude, I wish they wouldn't respond at all. Thanks Chef Jimmy for taking the time to go over this again. I have been missing for a few months while I remodeled my house. I'll be back to help soon.


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## jeepdiver (Apr 4, 2014)

One thing I use a lot in the kitchen,  esp with chicken is a food safe sanitizer.  I use a product call star san that was designed for use in beer making.  When mixed properly it is actually safe to drink (demoed by company owner) but will kill most bugs in short time.  It is great for cleaning down the sink and counters.  Probably be good for sausage equipment too


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## jp61 (Apr 4, 2014)

It is the Northern Hemisphere's turn pretty soon for some hot weather.







  There are days when I spend too much time and money at Sam's. I could probably count on one hand the times I walked out from there spending < $100.00.

Not many, but a few times I've noticed someone's shopping-cart with raw meat and/or poultry (not using supplied plastic bags..... (possible cross-contamination) in it within the first 5-10 min of me being in the store. Then at the check-out lanes, lets just say one hour or more later, with 3-5 full carts in front of them. It's 90°F outside, their car has been roasting for an hour before they load items purchased into the trunk. Who knows how far away they live or if there are other stops in between. They go home late Friday afternoon and put the stuff in the fridge. What's the temperature 35°, 40°, 45°? Now the temp inside the fridge will go up some do the huge load just placed in it. How long will it take for the fridge to catch up and maintain proper temperature with the kids eyeballing the contents inside of it every 10 minutes. Saturday evening the pork butt and chickens get prepped and spend more time in the danger zone. Sunday, out they come from the fridge to bring to room temperature before going into the smoker. The chicken go on the top rack and the pork butt bellow with a temp probe sticking out of it. Having some issues maintaining smoker temperature for awhile and the smoke generator went out twice already. But things are looking much better now and the $9.99 thermometer says it's 235° in the smoker. Then your phone rings and it's your best friend..... "hey dude, common over if your not doing anything, I'm smoking two chickens and a pork butt". The chicken is almost done, it LQQKS pretty darn tasty. OK. I'll be over in 20 minutes. I sure hope my friends know what they're doing....

*Food poisoning*

Possible long-term effects:

- Kidney failure

- Chronic arthritis

- Brain and nerve damage

- Unexpected goodbye and numerous heavy hearts

Stuff doesn't always just happen to other people. Don't be scared or uninformed. Like Chef JJ says...... "get educated"  






Edit: BTW, I'm under the "getting educated" column


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## jp61 (Apr 4, 2014)

JeepDiver said:


> One thing I use a lot in the kitchen, esp with chicken is a food safe sanitizer. I use a product call star san that was designed for use in beer making. When mixed properly it is actually safe to drink (demoed by company owner) but will kill most bugs in short time. It is great for cleaning down the sink and counters. Probably be good for sausage equipment too


Thanks for the info! 

Hmm...... "safe to drink", that's interesting. Without knowing anything about it, I would think that if it kills most of the bad bugs it may also do a number on the good bugs in our GI tract, which probably wouldn't be a good thing?


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 5, 2014)

Dr. Snyder's *FOOD SAFETY HAZARDS AND CONTROLS FOR THE HOME FOOD PREPARER* is something that everyone should read.




~Martin


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## jeepdiver (Apr 5, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Thanks for the info!
> 
> Hmm...... "safe to drink", that's interesting. Without knowing anything about it, I would think that if it kills most of the bad bugs it may also do a number on the good bugs in our GI tract, which probably wouldn't be a good thing?



I didnt say I would drink it :)  The company owner did it more as a point of how food safe it is.  It is a no rinse sanitizer so a lot of people were concerned about leaving residue in there beer carboys and kegs


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## jp61 (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks Martin!


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## rlk438 (Apr 5, 2014)

Follow


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## jp61 (Apr 6, 2014)

Lots of talk about cooking temps, time, IT (internal temps), minimum safe temps, types of bacterium, toxins, etc., with good reason.

Let's not forget about proper handling of  food after it is cooked/smoked.

One of the most common causes of food-borne illness is improper cooling of cooked foods

Bacteria are everywhere, even after food is cooked to a safe internal temperature, they can be reintroduced to food and then reproduce.

Some basic helpful information to keep in mind and practice

According to food microbiologists: 

- Hot food serving temp should be 140°F or above

- Cold food serving temp should be 40°F or bellow

- Discard any food left out at room temperature for more than 2 hours

- Discard any food left out for 1 hour, if temperature was over 90°F

- Place food into shallow containers and put in fridge or freezer for rapid cooling

- Fridge temperature should be 40°F or bellow

- Freezer temperature should be 0°F or bellow

- Use most cooked leftovers within 3 to 4 days, unless freezing

- Reheat leftovers to 165 °F

  

Any mistake(s) on my part, please point them out for correction. Thanks


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## jp61 (Apr 6, 2014)

Food Cross-Contamination

What is it?

Possible transfer of harmful bacteria to raw or cooked food from:

- Raw food (meat, poultry or seafood)

- Utensils

- Cutting boards

- Counter top

- Kitchen sink

- Hands

- Etc.

At the store

- Many if not all stores provide plastic bags but, some (many) people don't use them

- Packaging of raw foods (meat, poultry and seafood) can leak fluids that may contain harmful bacteria 

- Should always keep them separated from other items in shopping cart and put in dedicated bags at the check-out

- At the check-out fluids may leak out and on to conveyor belts prior to your arrival and are not always promptly cleaned up

- These fluids may contaminate any items you place on the conveyor

At home

- Place raw meat, poultry or seafood in containers or sealed plastic bags prior to refrigeration in order to prevent their juices from dripping onto other foods

- Clean up any fluids that may have leaked out with hot soapy paper towels 

- Washing raw meat, poultry or seafood in the sink may contaminate surrounding area and items

- Wash your hands with soap and warm water for at least 20 seconds

- Wash cutting boards, dishes, and counter tops with hot soapy water after preparing each food item and before you go on to the next item

- Do not  place cooked food back on the same plate or cutting board that previously held raw food

- Do not contaminate immediate atmosphere unless a loved one pulls your finger on request

Cutting boards

- Always use a clean board

- If possible use dedicated boards for raw meat, poultry or seafood

- If cutting board went through hell and back consider replacing it

- A solution of 1 tablespoon of unscented liquid chlorine bleach per gallon of water may be used to sanitize surfaces and utensils

These are some recommendations  from people smarter than I am, to keep in mind and practice, in order to keep them little bastards at bay. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Any mistake(s) on my part, please point them out for correction. Thanks


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## jp61 (Apr 6, 2014)

Please don't misinterpret my intentions here with this thread or my posts within. I do not belong to or work for the food  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  

I'm just trying to shine a light on what I feel is a very important topic for everyone in a seemingly inactive forum. In the process I'm learning a thing or two myself and hopefully others will too.







Don't be shy, jump right in! There's no physical bacteria involved in this process other than the ones on your keyboard 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





*This ought to go over like a lead balloon........ lol*


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## alblancher (Apr 7, 2014)

Basic food safety has to be taught to everyone that visits your kitchen during food prep.  I can't tell you how often someone uses a towel to wipe up spilled chicken water then uses the same towel to dry their hands after washing them.

At Sams one morning I saw one of the sample servers remove an obviously used paper towel from her top pocket, blow her nose and stuff it back in her pocket.  Not one time changing her serving gloves.   Or how about the deli counter girl that uses her serving gloves to operate the cash register and handle cash?   Or how about the sandwich preparer that uses her chef's knife to scratch her back? 

Fortunately most of us are healthy enough that small amounts of bad stuff won't make us sick but as I get older I am more and more aware of what others do that may make me sick.  My FIL once served turkey stuffed with oyster dressing,  looked great on the outside but the dressing was still cool and soaked in turkey blood.

How often have you eaten at a local restaurant only to find that the health department closed it down shortly afterward?

Too bad the health department doesn't require all kitchens to be open to the public a quick look or smell will tell you if they keep it clean.

We should all probably post a link to this thread in the other forums we visit.


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

"or how about the sandwich preparer that uses her chef's knife to scratch her back? "  
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





   
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





Yeah, I'm sure most of us have witnessed conditions or incidents that would make a person scratch his or her head in disbelief.

As a teenager, one of the places I worked before joining the Marines was a fancy seafood restaurant. A very popular place at the time with ice sculptures every weekend. We were allowed to have a cheeseburger or something along those lines for lunch. One day I walked up to a line cook and asked if he'd make be a cheeseburger. Being a nice guy, he asked if I wanted a steak instead and proceeded to pull out the steak drawer. I don't remember now if I ended up eating one or not but, do remember seeing two big cockroaches crawling on the raw meat.

A certain sub-sandwich place I use to frequent finally turned me away after not feeling well a few times seemingly after I've eaten from there. One thing I found nasty was the knife they used to cut the sandwich with. It was always pulled from what I called the scrap-food trough which probably didn't get cleaned until after closing.

Haven't visited in years a certain taco joint after my son and I witnessed what their prep area looked like.


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

... and, I also remember when I was still a dishwasher using my lighter and can of stainless steel cleaner as a flame thrower to zap cockroaches crawling on the walls, lol. Though they had an exterminator come on a regular basis, they still had an issue.


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Some Basics of the Parallel Microworld 

*- Bacteria*

*- Viruses*

*- Parasites*

*- Fungi*

*Microbes Found:*

People

- Staphylococcus aureus

- Shigella
- Hepatitis A

- Norovirus

Animals

- Salmonella
- E. coli 0157:H7
- Parasites

Environment
- Clostridium botulinum
- Clostridium perfringens

*Bacteria*

Beneficial 

- Aid in digestion

- Food industry

Spoilage

- Affects odor, taste and texture

Pathogenic

*Pathogen*

Any disease-producing agent

Needs for growth

- Nutrients
- pH
- Time
- Temperature
- +/- Oxygen
- Water Activity

*Bacterial Spores*

- Can survive cooking and freezing temperatures

- Can survive disinfection

*Toxins *

- Few are destroyed by heat

Control of Environment 

- Curing
- Acidifying
- Vacuum packaging
- Dehydrating
- Freezing
-Time
- Water activity
- pH
- Air
- Temperature

*Viruses*

- Exist only to replicate

- Need a host 

Infect all types of cells
- Bacteria
- Fungi
- Plants
- Animals

Environment
- Soil
- Water
- Air

*Fungi*

- Yeasts

- Molds

- Beneficial

- Spoilage

- Some are pathogenic

- Reproduce via spores

*Parasites*

- Need a host

- Nourishment
- Protection
- Complete life cycle

Found
- Soil
- Water
- Air
- Animals 

Acquired via contaminated

- Food
- Water

- Contact with a contaminated source

Any mistake(s) on my part, please point them out for correction. Thanks


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Basic Food Safety Videos

Produced by the Central District Health Department

Boise, ID

Uploaded July 13, 2007

All six videos in total are 29:16 in length

If interested, watch them in sequence otherwise they get out of order for some reason

Found them to be well made

If you find any inaccurate information please point it out so it can be corrected. Thanks

Note: In video #4 the second temperature he mentions is 155°F, it should be 160°F 

*Videos 1 & 2*

  

*Videos 3 & 4*

  

*Videos 5 & 6*

    

*USDA *


Recommended Internal Temperatures *  Food°F*Ground Meat & Meat Mixtures* Beef, Pork, Veal, Lamb160Turkey, Chicken165*Fresh Beef, Pork, Veal, Lamb* Beef, Pork, Veal, & Lamb (steaks, roasts and chops)145****as measured with a food thermometer before removing meat from the heat source. For safety and quality, allow meat to rest for at least three minutes before carving or consuming. For reasons of personal preference, consumers may choose to cook meat to higher temperatures. *Ham* Fresh (raw) or “cook-before-eating”145**Pre-cooked (to reheat)140*Poultry* Chicken, Turkey, Duck & Goose (whole or pieces)165Poultry breasts, roasts165Stuffing (cooked alone or in bird)165*Eggs and Egg Dishes* EggsCook until yolk and white are firmEgg dishes160*Leftovers and Casseroles*165
*These temperatures are recommended for consumer cooking. They are not intended for processing, institutional, or foodservice preparation. Food service professionals should consult their state or local food code.


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## deansomers (Apr 7, 2014)

Davidhef88 said:


> If you have ANY questions, especially when it comes to food safety, feel free to ask. The replies I quoted above are not the norm for responses here, nor do I like them. If members are going to respond to threads with a negative attitude, I wish they wouldn't respond at all. Thanks Chef Jimmy for taking the time to go over this again. I have been missing for a few months while I remodeled my house. I'll be back to help soon.


Lets make this CLEAR! I was NOT responding with a negative attitude! I was offering threads that had the same type of info in them. Every other forum I am on tries 2 keep from having lots of similar threads so I thought I was being helpful. I see now this thread is different. I couldn't possibly care any less if you liked my post this isn't facebook. I was just trying 2 be helpful & show the op some threads that had that info.


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## alblancher (Apr 7, 2014)

This forum tends to be pretty talkative and we try to engage people in responding to and creating new threads.   If all people need to do is retrieve information I suggest they use Google, its faster  If members want to learn or share or talk about why we do things the way we do, this is a good place to be.   Please continue to post links to relevant threads but please don't do that in lieu of contributing fresh commentary to the existing thread.

If all we did was rely on links there would be no arguing, no new information and worst of all no new Qview!  And everyone likes looking at fresh Qview!


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## wade (Apr 7, 2014)

alblancher said:


> At Sams one morning I saw one of the sample servers remove an obviously used paper towel from her top pocket, blow her nose and stuff it back in her pocket.  Not one time changing her serving gloves.


Three weeks ago I was eating in a restaurant in Canterbury where the kitchen area was visible to the diners.  The general hygiene methods were generally excellent but even here things can go wrong so easily. Two of the staff were portioning raw chicken obviously taking great pains to following their HACCP procedures - except for one small thing...  One of the kitchen staff was drinking a cup of coffee while he was handling the chicken - they then scrubbed, changed jackets and put on fresh gloves to began preparing green leaf salads - Unfortunately whilst he continued drinking from the the same mug of coffee. I felt a right pain in the backside when I pointed this out to the chef but my salad was one of the ones being prepared! To be fair the response was immediate and all of that batch of salad was immediately binned and I received a written apology a couple of days later. It just goes to show though that a moment of lapsed concentration is all that it takes.


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## davidhef88 (Apr 7, 2014)

T





DeanSomers said:


> Lets make this CLEAR! I was NOT responding with a negative attitude! I was offering threads that had the same type of info in them. Every other forum I am on tries 2 keep from having lots of similar threads so I thought I was being helpful. I see now this thread is different. I couldn't possibly care any less if you liked my post this isn't facebook. I was just trying 2 be helpful & show the op some threads that had that info.
> [/quote
> Thanks for setting the record straight with more of your posative attitude. No need to hijack the thread with this petty BS.


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## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

Davidhef88 said:


> T
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow... Over-react much? Guy simply said why he linked to those threads that you didn't like. No need to attack him & call his post BS - this has always been a place free of that kind of drama & this thread has the ability to help lots of people.

Not trying to start an argument by any means but please try to restrain your anger in public - take it to a PM...


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Why is it that, when it comes to poultry the minimum  IT (internal temp) of 165°F is safe for both ground and whole/pieces?


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## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Why is it that, when it comes to poultry the minimum  IT (internal temp) of 165°F is safe for both ground and whole/pieces?


It's because there is generally more contamination than on red meat. With something such as beef the animal is skinned right away - with poultry the skin (which can harbor bacteria from feces on the farm) is usually left on until they go through further processing. So there is more opportunity for the bugs to not get cleaned off. Chicken also has more nooks and crannies where bugs can hide - wings, legs, body cavity etc... There's more surface area relative to total meat. There is also the guts (gastro intestinal tract) It's a microbiological superhighway for pathogens. It's size relative to flesh is greater for a bird than a cow or other animal so more intestine to flesh means more chance that during the gutting the contents might get on the bird and the workspace is so much smaller on a bird that it's a lot harder to do this cleanly.

Basically processing is more invasive & bacteria is usually spread throughout the bird...

This is how it has always been explained to me at least...


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Smoking B said:


> It's because there is generally more contamination than on red meat. With something such as beef the animal is skinned right away - with poultry the skin (which can harbor bacteria from feces on the farm) is usually left on until they go through further processing. So there is more opportunity for the bugs to not get cleaned off. Chicken also has more nooks and crannies where bugs can hide - wings, legs, body cavity etc... There's more surface area relative to total meat. There is also the guts (gastro intestinal tract) It's a microbiological superhighway for pathogens. It's size relative to flesh is greater for a bird than a cow or other animal so more intestine to flesh means more chance that during the gutting the contents might get on the bird and the workspace is so much smaller on a bird that it's a lot harder to do this cleanly.
> 
> Basically processing is more invasive & bacteria is usually spread throughout the bird...
> 
> This is how it has always been explained to me at least...


Reasons why I would expect ground poultry recommended safe temps to be higher than whole bird. The same as with beef......145° for whole and 160° for ground.


----------



## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Reasons why I would expect ground poultry recommended safe temps to be higher than whole bird. The same as with beef......145° for whole and 160° for ground.


It doesn't need to be higher for ground poultry because the recommended temp for whole bird is already 165 - no need to go a lot higher to kill the nasties if you grind it up since you are already hot enough...

I hope that makes sense.


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Smoking B said:


> It doesn't need to be higher for ground poultry because the recommended temp for whole bird is already 165 - no need to go a lot higher to kill the nasties if you grind it up since you are already hot enough...
> 
> I hope that makes sense.









  Yes and no. Why wouldn't that also be true than in the case of beef or pork?


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## wade (Apr 7, 2014)

As was mentioned previously the processing methods used in poultry tend to be more invasive than for beef and pork and therefore the recommended cooking temperature already treats it as if it is ground. If you grind Beef or pork then the same is true and you also need to ensure that the "surfaces" in the centre of the patty or sausage all reach the required temperature.

With a solid lump of beef/pork however the outside "contaminated" surface will quickly reach the required temperature as the oven will be significantly hotter - whilst the "uncontaminated" centre does not need to.

That does raise the question of how do you actually measure the centre temperature of the Beef or Pork when using an internal probe without actually contaminating it?


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 7, 2014)

165 degrees is the target temperature for "safe" poultry because the government recognizes that many folks don't have good thermometers if they have a thermometer at all.
They don't want to take a chance on killing off any useful idiot voters.
Bimetallic coil thermometers are notoriously garbage and they are what many folks have.

http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Bimet-pic.html

Poultry can be safely finished at lower temperures if a good accurate thermometer is used and time is accurately measured.

eg: I finish chicken breasts via sous vide at 140 degrees F held for 35 minutes.


~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 7, 2014)

I stopped eating in restaurants for the most part.....too much carelessness and cross-contamination.
Even super-star chef's that many folks worship are pretty careless when it comes to cross contamination.  

Lots of errors here.....

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Allow me to try this again,

Safe target temp for chicken is 165° ground or whole 

Safe target temp for beef cuts is 145° but, if it's ground then the safe temp goes up to 160°   

All I'm saying is this. In my thinking, the *reasons* for cooking ground beef to a higher safe temp, should also apply the same way and for the same reasons to ground chicken

I can understand that 165° for chicken is a high and safe enough temp to make it safe in any form

But than I guess, I don't understand why 145° wouldn't be a high and safe enough temp to make ground beef safe








..., maybe I should just stick to making comments like "
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





  Nice Butt "

Either way it makes no difference to me, I was just curious


----------



## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Allow me to try this again,
> 
> Safe target temp for chicken is 165° ground or whole
> 
> ...





Smoking B said:


> The bacteria are now distributed throughout the meat instead of being just on the surface where they are easily killed. They are "sheltered" so to speak on the inside & have a longer time to multiply & create toxins before the IT gets high enough to kill them. Hopefully that makes sense the way I explained it...


The reason ground beef or pork needs cooked to a higher IT is because once the bacteria is mixed throughout the meat (rather than just being on the surface) it can grow inside multiplying & making toxins while being "protected" from the heat by the outer meat which is insulating it. You take it to a higher IT to make sure you kill what's at the center. Does it make sense the way I'm trying to explain it?


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Smoking B said:


> The reason ground beef or pork needs cooked to a higher IT is because once the bacteria is mixed throughout the meat (rather than just being on the surface) it can grow inside multiplying & making toxins while being "protected" from the heat by the outer meat which is insulating it. You take it to a higher IT to make sure you kill what's at the center. Does it make sense the way I'm trying to explain it?


I understood your explanation the first time regarding pork and beef. I guess those same reasons don't apply to chicken because one temp covers all forms of chicken ground or whole.


----------



## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

JP61 said:


> I understood your explanation the first time regarding pork and beef. I guess those same reasons don't apply to chicken because one temp covers all forms of chicken ground or whole.


Ok I was just going off what you said...

*"I can understand that 165° for chicken is a high and safe enough temp to make it safe in any form But than I guess, I don't understand why 145° wouldn't be a high and safe enough temp to make ground beef safe"*

After reading that I thought you didn't understand what I had said before so I tried to explain it again lol.

& yes - the higher temp is to cover poultry regardless of whether it is whole or ground.


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

lol.... let me bend it the other way now

Using the same logic as for chicken.

Why not have 160° safe temp for pork or beef in any form?


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

Ground chicken has bacteria all mixed into it just like ground beef or pork would. No?

A chicken breast has bacteria on its surface just like beef (steak) or pork (chop) would have bacteria on their surfaces.

Yet, chicken has one temp to go buy and beef and pork have two temps to go buy.


----------



## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

JP61 said:


> lol.... let me bend it the other way now
> 
> Using the same logic as for chicken.
> 
> Why not have 160° safe temp for pork or beef in any form?


Due to the way beef & pork are processed they generally do not have the same level of contamination on their surface as poultry does. What bacteria are on the surface of whole muscle beef & pork are killed before the center gets up to 145* - since the center hasn't been contaminated there is no need to cook it further.


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 7, 2014)

Generally, intact chicken isn't considered sterile the way that intact beef and pork are.
Also, there are *different target pathogens* involved in cooking chicken safely as opposed to pork and beef.
Check-out the Dr. Snyder link I posted above.



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 7, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Generally, intact chicken isn't considered sterile the way that intact beef and pork are.
> Also, there are *different target pathogens* involved in cooking chicken safely as opposed to pork and beef.
> Check-out the Dr. Snyder link I posted above.
> 
> ...


I kind of figured it was something along those lines "different target pathogens" but wasn't sure. This way, it now makes more sense to me. I have checked it out and will read it all, probably a few times.

Thanks Martin!

Thanks SmokingB! 

lol..... hope I didn't give you a headache.


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## smoking b (Apr 7, 2014)

Lol it's ok - I was just getting ready to say think campylobacter & salmonella or why you try not to splash chicken water around & process your poultry last after your other meats but Martin summed it up much easier. Thanks Martin!


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## wade (Apr 8, 2014)

> Quote:





DiggingDogFarm said:


> 165 degrees is the target temperature for "safe" poultry because the government recognizes that many folks don't have good thermometers if they have a thermometer at all.
> They don't want to take a chance on killing off any useful idiot voters.
> Bimetallic coil thermometers are notoriously garbage and they are what many folks have.


Until a few years ago in the UK the "recommended" minimum temperature for cooking chicken (as opposed to the "safe" temperature) was 80C-175F  however as the processing methods for chicken have changed leading to less contamination during processing the "recommended" and "safe" temperature are now the same. I still have an old bi-metal probe that shows these higher recommended temperatures. I guess Martin what you say is right about the accuracy of the these thermometers and would also have been taken into consideration. Most domestic cooks still use the old "20 minutes per pound plus 20 minutes" rule which almost guarantees that you end up with a piece of near-sterile, tho often dry, chicken.


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## alblancher (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm getting a bit lost in this discussion so let me ask a question or make an observation.   Safe food handling documents allow for a range of safe temps for all foods depending on the amount of time the food is held at that temp, the pathogen's environment (water availability and osmotic pressures), and the amount of heat delivered during a specific time.   Safe time and temps are affected by the ability of the meat and process to "deliver" the pathogen killing temps and environment.  There is, according to the experts, a difference in how long it takes "ground" meat and "whole" meats  to deliver/convey the bacteria killing temps and or alter the environment and osmotic pressures.

Remember heat is transmitted much more effectively with high humidity, high pressure cooking then dry cooking.  Water is a good transmitter of heat and holds a lot of latent heat that can be transmitted to the product.   A convection oven has lower hold times then a standard dry oven because the heat is circulated and more effectively delivered.  What burns more?  Sticking your hand in a 250 degree oven for 30 seconds or in 250 degree water for 30 seconds

Whole muscle meats are assumed to be "germ" free inside the intact muscle.  Ground or penetrated meats are assumed to be laden with pathogens.   Pork cooking temps have come down because Tric has been eliminated by modern processors but we should still cook wild or locally grown uninspected pork to the higher temps.

I think the "amount" of bad guys in the product is irrelevant to the discussion.  It is automatically assumed that contact with an infected surface produces sufficient inoculant to make the food unsafe.  If the ground meat is not contaminated when it leaves the factory it becomes contaminated when the high school kid working the meat counter breathes on it as he repackages or when momma sticks her hands in it to form burger patties for her family. 

There are several ways to make products safe

Bring to high enough temperature

Bring to either sufficiently high or low enough osmotic pressures

Remove enough "available" water that the pathogens can not survive or reproduce

Place the pathogens in a chemical environment that it cannot survive

Radiate the pathogens

There are others that do not come to mind 

At least that's the way I see it.


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## eman (Apr 8, 2014)

There are several ways to make products safe

Bring to high enough temperature

Bring to either sufficiently high or low enough osmotic pressures

Remove enough "available" water that the pathogens can not survive or reproduce

Place the pathogens in a chemical environment that it cannot survive

Radiate the pathogens

Just don't radiate my oysters!


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## daveomak (Apr 8, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Dr. Snyder's *FOOD SAFETY HAZARDS AND CONTROLS FOR THE HOME FOOD PREPARER* is something that everyone should read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Martin....   what a great pamphlet....  lots of good info in one place.....


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## dert (Apr 8, 2014)

Some good info here on this thread, but some misleading info as well...

I have worked in food safety for the last 17 years and am a food microbiologist.  

When determining risk, I look at several key factors.

1. Organism of concern (lots of veriables with different organisms)
2. pH
3. Water activitry
4. O2 availability

With these known you can limit the potiential suspects.

Some of this info is from here:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/G...ProductsHazardsandControlsGuide/UCM252447.pdf


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## dert (Apr 8, 2014)

As you can see, there is a time/temp contunum (if you remember calculus, it's the area under the curve)!

http://s660.photobucket.com/user/de...3E62B65A-6508-4CED-AE26-1C4AFAC17FBF.jpg.html

http://s660.photobucket.com/user/de...95606D54-2615-4BA5-82E9-B591861F90B7.jpg.html

I like to use this one for inactivation of Lm as it is fairly hard to kill...

http://s660.photobucket.com/user/de...20BA980A-CA64-4F85-85B0-D265F17284E1.jpg.html

You can see on this one that 145*F for 17 min has the same 6 log kill for Lm as .02 min at 185*F.

I realize these are from FDA concerning fishery products, but the info is good for all food (assuming you know the variables)...


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## jp61 (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, I've had a brief conversation with a nice lady named Karen. She's very knowledgeable and willing to help if asked.

Here's how "she" answered my question:

*"The poultry temperature of 165 degrees F is designed to eliminate "Salmonella." The National Advisory Committee on Microbiological Criteria for Foods (NACMCF) recommended the single, safe minimum internal temperature of 165 degrees F for consumers to cook poultry. The recommendation to consumers is designed to achieve a 7-log reduction of "Salmonella." Salmonella levels in poultry are higher and Salmonella are becoming more heat resistant. This process will also control "Campylobacter" and high pathogenic avian influenza (H5N1) if it arises. 

Our recommendation for whole cuts of meat is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute hold time. The hold time allows the internal temperature to gradually rise to 160 degrees F which makes the meat safe."*

Not thinking of temperature rise during the 3 minute hold time for whole cuts of meat, was the reason for my misunderstanding.


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 8, 2014)

Just want to add another point on Chicken vs Beef/Pork and safe IT...Most brands of chicken, especially bargain brands are " Enhanced ", Injected with Broth and/or a Phosphate Solution to maintain moistness during cooking and add weight 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





, to the bird. This solution carries bacteria into the no longer intact meat. So higher Internal Temp is applied to both whole muscle and ground poultry...JJ


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 8, 2014)

JP61 said:


> :biggrin:  Well, I've had a brief conversation with a nice lady named Karen. She's very knowledgeable and willing to help if asked.
> 
> Here's how "she" answered my question:
> 
> ...




Yup, but her last sentence doesn't make sense. The amount of temperature increase in carry-over cooking depends on the size of the piece of meat and other factors. 

FWIW, here's the pasteurization chart for chicken and turkey.......













poultry pasturization.png



__ diggingdogfarm
__ Apr 8, 2014







~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks Martin!

I had a couple of sentences typed regarding that in my last post but, decided to delete it before posting.


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## jp61 (Apr 8, 2014)

Martin,

Regarding the chart. Where does the fat percentage come from? 

Edit: How does one go about figuring out the fat percentage?.... is what I should have typed. Guesstimate?


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 8, 2014)

There's no practical way to know for sure....to be on the safe side, I go with the highest fat percentage even though the actual percentage may be much lower.



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 8, 2014)

What if someone's better-half comes home from the market with a really fat live chicken?

Can you just add more time or does the bird have to go on the treadmill?

Edit: 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






  you don't have to answer that.


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 8, 2014)

LOL

The highest percentage should be sufficient to cover everything.
In a chicken, thigh flesh, which is one of the fattest parts, is about 11% fat.




~Martin


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## dert (Apr 8, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Yup, but her last sentence doesn't make sense. The amount of temperature increase in carry-over cooking depends on the size of the piece of meat and other factors.
> 
> FWIW, here's the pasteurization chart for chicken and turkey.......
> 
> ...



Great chart!

This answers the questions above about intact, injected and ground poultry.  This demonstrates a 7 log reduction (i.e., 10,000,000:1) for potentially highly contaminated product with Salmonella down to a safe level.

Beef (intact or injected) is different... E. coli is the organism if concern and has different thermal death curves...


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## alblancher (Apr 9, 2014)

I had a moderator on a forum I visit pm me to let me know that cooking contaminated food will make it safe.  He cited a study out of Germany that shows temps as low as 70c   155Fwill destroy the toxins produced by E Coli.   Does anyone have examples of pathogens/toxins etc that are not made harmless by cooking to internal temps in the 85C  185F range?


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## sajata (Apr 9, 2014)

botulism will not be rendered safe no mater how much it is cooked or how it is cooked. since it is a nuro toxin and not a bacteria


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 9, 2014)

*"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic 
strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling 
temperatures. When foods are brought to a boil [212°F (100°C)], 
the toxin is inactivated and the food becomes safe to consume."*

http://www.hi-tm.com/RFA/food-path-summ.pdf

It's important to note that it's extremely irresponsible to attempt to to render any food that's likely toxic "safe"....it should be discarded.



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 9, 2014)

sajata said:


> botulism will not be rendered safe no mater how much it is cooked or how it is cooked. since it is a nuro toxin and not a bacteria


CDC

"Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil. In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. *Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, *persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust.  The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning.  Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older."


----------



## jp61 (Apr 9, 2014)

alblancher said:


> I had a moderator on a forum I visit pm me to let me know that cooking contaminated food will make it safe.  He cited a study out of Germany that shows temps as low as 70c   155Fwill destroy the toxins produced by E Coli.   Does anyone have examples of pathogens/toxins etc that are not made harmless by cooking to internal temps in the 85C  185F range?


CDC

"Staphylococcal food poisoning is a gastrointestinal illness. It is caused by eating foods contaminated with toxins produced by *Staphylococcus aureus *. The most common way for food to be contaminated with _Staphylococcus _is through contact with food workers who carry the bacteria or through contaminated milk and cheeses. _Staphylococcus _is salt tolerant and can grow in salty foods like ham. As the germ multiplies in food, it produces toxins that can cause illness. Staphylococcal toxins are resistant to heat and cannot be destroyed by cooking. Foods at highest risk of contamination with _Staphylococcus aureus _and subsequent toxin production are those that are made by hand and require no cooking. Some examples of foods that have caused staphylococcal food poisoning are sliced meat, puddings, some pastries and sandwiches."


----------



## alblancher (Apr 9, 2014)

The op on the forum asked if he would get sick after frying venison that had been in the freezer too long in what turned out to be rancid peanut oil.   My reply was that he is probably ok but following safe food techniques are important   blah, blah, blah.  

in response to my post I was challenged in the pm with the E Coli reference.    So now I am wondering if everything I know about food safety especially about keeping fresh foods at safe temps before cooking, about discarding food that sat overnight in a refrigerator left open etc  is now no longer accurate.   

Are we now saying that as long as the food hasn't developed smell or texture issues that would make it un-palatable if you cook it at a high enough temperature you can still consume it.  I just can't  image a health inspector allowing meat or chicken to be left at room temperatures  for hours before cooking.   Gee, I'm away from the forum for a couple of months and the whole darn world starts spinning in another direction!!


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 9, 2014)

If someone has to use extreme temperatures to render their food safe to eat (and defend that practice), they're definitely making some majorly irresponsible mistakes elsewhere.
I sure as heck wouldn't sit down at their table!!!!



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 9, 2014)

*"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic
strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling
temperatures. When foods are brought to a boil [212°F (100°C)],
the toxin is inactivated and the food becomes safe to consume."*

Martin,

I thought the need for pressure cookers in canning was to have the ability to get past 212°F in order to inactivate C botulinum?


----------



## jp61 (Apr 9, 2014)

As important as food safety is and its basic understanding for consumers, when I attempt to zoom in on the matter, it hurts my 2 brain cells! This STUFF is complex!!


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 9, 2014)

JP61 said:


> *"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic
> 
> strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling
> 
> ...




Yeah, you do need to exceed that temperature to reliability kill the spores (when home canning), but that's different than rendering the toxin safe.



~Martin


----------



## jp61 (Apr 9, 2014)

FDA

*"Foodborne Illness Is Serious Business*

Foodborne illness can strike anyone. However, some people are at a higher risk for developing foodborne illness. These include pregnant women, young children, older adults and people with weakened immune systems. If you — or someone you care for — are in one of these at-risk groups, it’s important to pay extra attention to handling food safely."

Yesterday I printed out a food safety brochure for senior citizens and ordered a thermapen for my soon to be 73yr old mother. Early B-day present


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## jp61 (Apr 10, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Yeah, you do need to exceed that temperature to reliability kill the spores (when home canning), but that's different than rendering the toxin safe.
> 
> 
> 
> ~Martin


You're 100% correct. I had 250°F stuck in my mind.


----------



## sajata (Apr 11, 2014)

JP61 said:


> CDC
> 
> "Staphylococcal food poisoning is a gastrointestinal illness. It is caused by eating foods contaminated with toxins produced by *Staphylococcus aureus *. The most common way for food to be contaminated with _Staphylococcus _is through contact with food workers who carry the bacteria or through contaminated milk and cheeses. _Staphylococcus _is salt tolerant and can grow in salty foods like ham. As the germ multiplies in food, it produces toxins that can cause illness. Staphylococcal toxins are resistant to heat and cannot be destroyed by cooking. Foods at highest risk of contamination with _Staphylococcus aureus _and subsequent toxin production are those that are made by hand and require no cooking. Some examples of foods that have caused staphylococcal food poisoning are sliced meat, puddings, some pastries and sandwiches."





JP61 said:


> CDC
> 
> "Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil. In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. *Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, *persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust.  The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning.  Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older."


While I truly hate to be proven wrong, I am rather glad I was. I have taken a number of sausage making class around the country. both fresh and dry.  and in each one they either directly or indirectly said that once something has been contaminated with botulism there is no way back.  While the threat of that pushes me to practice safe charcuterie.  But lately I have been fooling around with sous vide and that has me even more worried.   but it wounds like if I can develop recipes that get the food hot enough it will eliminate the threat.   I understand nothing replace safe food processing but in some cases I would like an extra margin of safety.  Pancetta comes to mind.   I always cook it before I/we eat it, so that should mitigate any threat from botulism that may have snuck through.

Thanks, I love this place....


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## jp61 (Apr 11, 2014)

sajata said:


> While I truly hate to be proven wrong, I am rather glad I was.


It is not or shouldn't be about someone being proven wrong or right but rather "food safety" comprehension for all and proper execution thereof so no one gets sick or worse.


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## jeepdiver (Apr 11, 2014)

There was a quote from morton's site that was removed.   IMHO that is a big mistake,  it is those references that lead to a lot of the misunderstandings.  It is a commercial product that is widely used that has a definition in opposition to the FDA.  This and similar references are direct contributers to tge confusion mentioned in this thread


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## daveomak (Apr 11, 2014)

JeepDiver said:


> There was a quote from morton's site that was removed.   IMHO that is a big mistake,  it is those references that lead to a lot of the misunderstandings.  It is a commercial product that is widely used that has a definition in opposition to the FDA.  This and similar references are direct contributers to tge confusion mentioned in this thread



Jeep Diver, good evening.......   Admin reserves the right to remove information that can be harmful to the members, on this site.....  There are many sources that provide misinformation.....   We respect our members and want them to produce a safe food product...   Sooooo, we make every attempt to provide solid, safe information.....

Dave


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## jeepdiver (Apr 11, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Jeep Diver, good evening.......   Admin reserves the right to remove information that can be harmful to the members, on this site.....  There are many sources that provide misinformation.....   We respect our members and want them to produce a safe food product...   Sooooo, we make every attempt to provide solid, safe information.....
> 
> Dave


I do get this but IMHO saying hey this info conflicts with the FDA and shouldn't be used is safer than pulling it off a post so when someone comes across it they will have seen it before and know not to use it.  If I hadn't seen it here and came across it I would think it was trustworthy due to the source


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## daveomak (Apr 11, 2014)

Then again, it's not really nice to say Morton's doesn't know what their talking about....   There are lots of errors in print about curing meats...  FDA doesn't allow nitrate in bacon....  Morton's recommends TQ for bacon...  Oh well.... 
We ain't the food police.....  everyone is welcome to use any recipe they like....   we like to recommend FDA/FSIS stuff....

A member just posted this link.....   first time "ever" I have seen the USDA "NO to TQ use in bacon"


http://www.pelletsmoking.com/searching-cure-26/ham-brining-101-bacon-6993/#post72952













Curing salt comparison....gif



__ daveomak
__ Apr 11, 2014


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 12, 2014)

DaveOmak said:


> Then again, it's not really nice to say Morton's doesn't know what their talking about....   There are lots of errors in print about curing meats...  FDA doesn't allow nitrate in bacon....  Morton's recommends TQ for bacon...  Oh well....
> We ain't the food police.....  everyone is welcome to use any recipe they like....   we like to recommend FDA/FSIS stuff....
> 
> A member just posted this link.....   first time "ever" I have seen the USDA "NO to TQ use in bacon"
> ...





That guy has some nice looking graphics, but he makes a bunch of errors.
He's way off on some stuff.




~Martin


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 12, 2014)

JeepDiver said:


> There was a quote from morton's site that was removed.   IMHO that is a big mistake,  it is those references that lead to a lot of the misunderstandings.  It is a commercial product that is widely used that has a definition in opposition to the FDA.  This and similar references are direct contributers to tge confusion mentioned in this thread




Where was a quote removed?



~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 13, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Well, I've had a brief conversation with a nice lady named Karen. She's very knowledgeable and willing to help if asked.
> 
> Here's how "she" answered my question:
> 
> ...









http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...sh-recipe-for-making-bird-flu-more-contagious


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## chef jimmyj (Apr 13, 2014)

DiggingDogFarm said:


> Where was a quote removed?
> 
> 
> 
> ~Martin


I am curious as well. I did not see anything removed and I am usually the guy that edits this forum...JJ


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## jeepdiver (Apr 13, 2014)

Now I am thinking I may have gotten my threads crossed.  There was a post from mortons talking about dry curring bacon, but it didn't have the same definition of the FDA.  I'm thinking maybe it was a different thread now, though I cant find it now.  Sorry for yhe confusion


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## diggingdogfarm (Apr 13, 2014)

JeepDiver said:


> Now I am thinking I may have gotten my threads crossed.  There was a post from mortons talking about dry curring bacon, but it didn't have the same definition of the FDA.  I'm thinking maybe it was a different thread now, though I cant find it now.  Sorry for yhe confusion




It's in this thread...and the post wasn't deleted...it's still there.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/124452/confusing-dry-curing-with-dry-curing

~Martin


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## jp61 (Apr 17, 2014)

[h2]CDC's 2013 Food Safety Progress Report[/h2]
http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/n...y-progress-report-shows-not-so-much-progress/


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