Food Safety Chit-Chat

Discussion in 'Food Safety' started by jp61, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. 165 degrees is the target temperature for "safe" poultry because the government recognizes that many folks don't have good thermometers if they have a thermometer at all.
    They don't want to take a chance on killing off any useful idiot voters.
    Bimetallic coil thermometers are notoriously garbage and they are what many folks have.

    http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Bimet-pic.html

    Poultry can be safely finished at lower temperures if a good accurate thermometer is used and time is accurately measured.

    eg: I finish chicken breasts via sous vide at 140 degrees F held for 35 minutes.


    ~Martin
     
  2. I stopped eating in restaurants for the most part.....too much carelessness and cross-contamination.
    Even super-star chef's that many folks worship are pretty careless when it comes to cross contamination.

    Lots of errors here.....

    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]



    ~Martin
     
  3. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    Allow me to try this again,

    Safe target temp for chicken is 165° ground or whole 

    Safe target temp for beef cuts is 145° but, if it's ground then the safe temp goes up to 160°   

    All I'm saying is this. In my thinking, the reasons for cooking ground beef to a higher safe temp, should also apply the same way and for the same reasons to ground chicken

    I can understand that 165° for chicken is a high and safe enough temp to make it safe in any form

    But than I guess, I don't understand why 145° wouldn't be a high and safe enough temp to make ground beef safe

    [​IMG]..., maybe I should just stick to making comments like "[​IMG]  Nice Butt "

    Either way it makes no difference to me, I was just curious
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  4. The reason ground beef or pork needs cooked to a higher IT is because once the bacteria is mixed throughout the meat (rather than just being on the surface) it can grow inside multiplying & making toxins while being "protected" from the heat by the outer meat which is insulating it. You take it to a higher IT to make sure you kill what's at the center. Does it make sense the way I'm trying to explain it?
     
  5. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    I understood your explanation the first time regarding pork and beef. I guess those same reasons don't apply to chicken because one temp covers all forms of chicken ground or whole. 
     
  6. Ok I was just going off what you said...

    "I can understand that 165° for chicken is a high and safe enough temp to make it safe in any form But than I guess, I don't understand why 145° wouldn't be a high and safe enough temp to make ground beef safe"

    After reading that I thought you didn't understand what I had said before so I tried to explain it again lol.

    & yes - the higher temp is to cover poultry regardless of whether it is whole or ground.
     
  7. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    lol.... let me bend it the other way now

    Using the same logic as for chicken.

    Why not have 160° safe temp for pork or beef in any form? 
     
  8. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    Ground chicken has bacteria all mixed into it just like ground beef or pork would. No?

    A chicken breast has bacteria on its surface just like beef (steak) or pork (chop) would have bacteria on their surfaces.

    Yet, chicken has one temp to go buy and beef and pork have two temps to go buy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  9. Due to the way beef & pork are processed they generally do not have the same level of contamination on their surface as poultry does. What bacteria are on the surface of whole muscle beef & pork are killed before the center gets up to 145* - since the center hasn't been contaminated there is no need to cook it further.
     
  10. Generally, intact chicken isn't considered sterile the way that intact beef and pork are.
    Also, there are different target pathogens involved in cooking chicken safely as opposed to pork and beef.
    Check-out the Dr. Snyder link I posted above.



    ~Martin
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  11. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    I kind of figured it was something along those lines "different target pathogens" but wasn't sure. This way, it now makes more sense to me. I have checked it out and will read it all, probably a few times.

    Thanks Martin!

    Thanks SmokingB! 

    lol..... hope I didn't give you a headache.
     
  12. Lol it's ok - I was just getting ready to say think campylobacter & salmonella or why you try not to splash chicken water around & process your poultry last after your other meats but Martin summed it up much easier. Thanks Martin!  [​IMG]  
     
  13. wade

    wade Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Until a few years ago in the UK the "recommended" minimum temperature for cooking chicken (as opposed to the "safe" temperature) was 80C-175F  however as the processing methods for chicken have changed leading to less contamination during processing the "recommended" and "safe" temperature are now the same. I still have an old bi-metal probe that shows these higher recommended temperatures. I guess Martin what you say is right about the accuracy of the these thermometers and would also have been taken into consideration. Most domestic cooks still use the old "20 minutes per pound plus 20 minutes" rule which almost guarantees that you end up with a piece of near-sterile, tho often dry, chicken.
     
  14. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    I'm getting a bit lost in this discussion so let me ask a question or make an observation.   Safe food handling documents allow for a range of safe temps for all foods depending on the amount of time the food is held at that temp, the pathogen's environment (water availability and osmotic pressures), and the amount of heat delivered during a specific time.   Safe time and temps are affected by the ability of the meat and process to "deliver" the pathogen killing temps and environment.  There is, according to the experts, a difference in how long it takes "ground" meat and "whole" meats  to deliver/convey the bacteria killing temps and or alter the environment and osmotic pressures.

    Remember heat is transmitted much more effectively with high humidity, high pressure cooking then dry cooking.  Water is a good transmitter of heat and holds a lot of latent heat that can be transmitted to the product.   A convection oven has lower hold times then a standard dry oven because the heat is circulated and more effectively delivered.  What burns more?  Sticking your hand in a 250 degree oven for 30 seconds or in 250 degree water for 30 seconds

    Whole muscle meats are assumed to be "germ" free inside the intact muscle.  Ground or penetrated meats are assumed to be laden with pathogens.   Pork cooking temps have come down because Tric has been eliminated by modern processors but we should still cook wild or locally grown uninspected pork to the higher temps.

    I think the "amount" of bad guys in the product is irrelevant to the discussion.  It is automatically assumed that contact with an infected surface produces sufficient inoculant to make the food unsafe.  If the ground meat is not contaminated when it leaves the factory it becomes contaminated when the high school kid working the meat counter breathes on it as he repackages or when momma sticks her hands in it to form burger patties for her family. 

    There are several ways to make products safe

    Bring to high enough temperature

    Bring to either sufficiently high or low enough osmotic pressures

    Remove enough "available" water that the pathogens can not survive or reproduce

    Place the pathogens in a chemical environment that it cannot survive

    Radiate the pathogens

    There are others that do not come to mind 

    At least that's the way I see it.  
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  15. eman

    eman Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member

    There are several ways to make products safe

    Bring to high enough temperature

    Bring to either sufficiently high or low enough osmotic pressures

    Remove enough "available" water that the pathogens can not survive or reproduce

    Place the pathogens in a chemical environment that it cannot survive

    Radiate the pathogens

    Just don't radiate my oysters!
     
  16. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

  17. dert

    dert Master of the Pit

    Some good info here on this thread, but some misleading info as well...

    I have worked in food safety for the last 17 years and am a food microbiologist.

    When determining risk, I look at several key factors.

    1. Organism of concern (lots of veriables with different organisms)
    2. pH
    3. Water activitry
    4. O2 availability

    With these known you can limit the potiential suspects.

    Some of this info is from here:

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/G...ProductsHazardsandControlsGuide/UCM252447.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  18. dert

    dert Master of the Pit

    As you can see, there is a time/temp contunum (if you remember calculus, it's the area under the curve)!





    I like to use this one for inactivation of Lm as it is fairly hard to kill...



    You can see on this one that 145*F for 17 min has the same 6 log kill for Lm as .02 min at 185*F.

    I realize these are from FDA concerning fishery products, but the info is good for all food (assuming you know the variables)...
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  19. jp61

    jp61 Master of the Pit ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    [​IMG]  Well, I've had a brief conversation with a nice lady named Karen. She's very knowledgeable and willing to help if asked.

    Here's how "she" answered my question:

    "The poultry temperature of 165 degrees F is designed to eliminate "Salmonella." The National Advisory Committee on Microbiological Criteria for Foods (NACMCF) recommended the single, safe minimum internal temperature of 165 degrees F for consumers to cook poultry. The recommendation to consumers is designed to achieve a 7-log reduction of "Salmonella." Salmonella levels in poultry are higher and Salmonella are becoming more heat resistant. This process will also control "Campylobacter" and high pathogenic avian influenza (H5N1) if it arises. 

    Our recommendation for whole cuts of meat is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute hold time. The hold time allows the internal temperature to gradually rise to 160 degrees F which makes the meat safe."


    Not thinking of temperature rise during the 3 minute hold time for whole cuts of meat, was the reason for my misunderstanding. 
     
  20. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Just want to add another point on Chicken vs Beef/Pork and safe IT...Most brands of chicken, especially bargain brands are " Enhanced ", Injected with Broth and/or a Phosphate Solution to maintain moistness during cooking and add weight [​IMG], to the bird. This solution carries bacteria into the no longer intact meat. So higher Internal Temp is applied to both whole muscle and ground poultry...JJ
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014

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