noobie curing questions

[blair99]

Hi guys, I am looking to use cure #1 for the first time in a jerky and have some noobie questions. I am wanting to try a few different recipes, one with a dry rub and a couple with marinades.

With the marinade, do I just add the cure to the marinade? It wont affect flavour significantly and doesnt need to be washed off etc?
Do I need to factor the weight of the marinade into the calculator to work out the cure amount?

With the dry rub, can I add the cure to the dry rub and mix thoroughly? Or could this end up with some pieces that are over cured and bad? Is it best to instead use a brine first and then rinse thoroughly and use then add the dry rub to the meat and let it rest?

Thanks so much!

 

[daveomak]

Blair, Welcome and good evening....
Jerky, I think, is best served using a liquid brine/cure... Yes, you add the weight of the meat and liquid to get the total weight for adding the other ingredients... Ppm is based on weight / weight....
So, weigh the meat and liquid.. convert to grams by multiplying by 454... 454 grams in 1#....
cure is used at a rate of ~154 Ppm +/-... that converts to weight X 0.25% or 0.0025 gives the right amount of cure, or 1 tsp. of cure #1 per 5#'s of stuff, or 1.13 grams per pound of stuff...
After the brine/cure, you can sprinkle on any spices / herbs to get the flavor profile you are looking for.. then smoke or dehydrate.. your choice..

 

[blair99]

Thanks guys, will check out that video. To confirm Dave, are you suggesting I liquid brine/cure overnight or however long required, then rinse off and marinade for desired length of time? Cheers

 

[daveomak]

Add the cure to the marinade and refer overnight.. up to 24 hours.... Blot dry on paper towels... the meat is so thin, if you rinse, you may wash out the cure and marinade... Do NOT heat up the marinade with the cure in it... If you heat it to dissolve stuff, cure starts breaking down at about 130 F... for additional safety with pathogens, you can heat the meat in the marinade to 165, cool to around 100 then add the cure....

 

[mike1ranger]

Add the cure to the marinade and refer overnight.. up to 24 hours.... Blot dry on paper towels... the meat is so thin, if you rinse, you may wash out the cure and marinade... Do NOT heat up the marinade with the cure in it... If you heat it to dissolve stuff, cure starts breaking down at about 130 F... for additional safety with pathogens, you can heat the meat in the marinade to 165, cool to around 100 then add the cure....

So, I have a question about heating the meat and marinade to 160, cooling then adding the cure, then smoking. I thought I had it all figured out by researching the heck out of food safety, cure use, etc. Apparently missed the "heat the meat and marinade" thing so I have 2 lbs of venison jerky strips in marinade that includes TQ as the cure per the TQ instructions. My plan was for 24 hour marinade/cure time then pat dry and smoke in ball park of 160 deg. Now, reading about the "heat the meat and marinade to 160 thing" and knowing the nitrite is broken down by the heating, could I heat to the 160 then add some cure #1 (as apposed to TQ to avoid over salty) and let sit for another 12 hours and smoke as planned? Or, is the "heat meat and marinade to 160 thing" null and void because I was going to smoke in that ball park temp anyway?

 

[JckDanls 07]

So, I have a question about heating the meat and marinade to 160, cooling then adding the cure, then smoking. I thought I had it all figured out by researching the heck out of food safety, cure use, etc. Apparently missed the "heat the meat and marinade" thing so I have 2 lbs of venison jerky strips in marinade that includes TQ as the cure per the TQ instructions. My plan was for 24 hour marinade/cure time then pat dry and smoke in ball park of 160 deg. Now, reading about the "heat the meat and marinade to 160 thing" and knowing the nitrite is broken down by the heating, could I heat to the 160 then add some cure #1 (as apposed to TQ to avoid over salty) and let sit for another 12 hours and smoke as planned? Or, is the "heat meat and marinade to 160 thing" null and void because I was going to smoke in that ball park temp anyway?

Stick with your original plan... What Dave is saying.. Some people like to heat their marinade to help dissolve spices... If cure is added and then heated in the marinade it will start to break down the cure... resulting in an insufficient amount of cure left for proper curing of the meat... Hence adding cure AFTER marinade has cooled as to not break down the cure ... Once meat is cured (properly), drying/cooking temps are not a factor...

Also... DO NOT add more cure to your marinade that already has TQ in it... this would double the amount of cure needed...

 

[daveomak]

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fch/sites/default/files/documents/pnw_632_makingjerkyathome.pdf

There has been some scientific study... Folks that have contracted food borne pathogens from jerky...

There are 3 listed methods for insuring all food borne pathogens can be dealt with safely...

Also, if you use cure#1 or any cure with nitrite, which should be used, it should be added after any brine is cooled as nitrite starts to break down with temps around 130 ish...
If you choose the 275 F heat cycle, brining, curing, smoking is done first.. So the heat cycle has the same effect as cooking any meat with nitrite in it.. the nitrite dissipates and that is acceptable... Testing indicates approx. 80-90 percent of nitrite is "lost" during the cooking cycle... the remaining % is adequate to continue protection of the meat for a "reasonable" length of time...
precooking is an alternative to post cooking.. personal preference... just add the nitrite after all the pathogens are dead and the brine/cure has cooled.. the nitrite will continue to add protection once the jerky is in storage...

If you choose the acidification using vinegar, as in biltong, I have read where acidification of nitrite is not a good idea... I would have to delve into that again.. Usually the vinegar acidic treatment "stays" in the meat and nitrite is not necessary... I think ???.... Biltong is not heated.. cool air dried.. Shit, I'm getting so old I can't remember all of this stuff...
If I have added confusion to this .... let me know.. I will try and help....
Dave

You can marinate the meat and crank up the smoker temp to 200 ish... Leave the meat "wet" with marinade... That "may" heat the jerky up to 160-165... but I doubt it...
Are you familiar with the "Dreaded Stall" when cooking meat.. the meat temps stop rising about 150-160 ish... That is due to evaporative cooling effect of the moisture in the meat... the moisture evaporates faster than the temp rise thus cooling the meat.. like you sweating in hot weather.. the meat may not get to the necessary temp... just one of those physics things...

 

[mike1ranger]

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/fch/sites/default/files/documents/pnw_632_makingjerkyathome.pdf

There has been some scientific study... Folks that have contracted food borne pathogens from jerky...

There are 3 listed methods for insuring all food borne pathogens can be dealt with safely...

Also, if you use cure#1 or any cure with nitrite, which should be used, it should be added after any brine is cooled as nitrite starts to break down with temps around 130 ish...
If you choose the 275 F heat cycle, brining, curing, smoking is done first.. So the heat cycle has the same effect as cooking any meat with nitrite in it.. the nitrite dissipates and that is acceptable... Testing indicates approx. 80-90 percent of nitrite is "lost" during the cooking cycle... the remaining % is adequate to continue protection of the meat for a "reasonable" length of time...
precooking is an alternative to post cooking.. personal preference... just add the nitrite after all the pathogens are dead and the brine/cure has cooled.. the nitrite will continue to add protection once the jerky is in storage...

If you choose the acidification using vinegar, as in biltong, I have read where acidification of nitrite is not a good idea... I would have to delve into that again.. Usually the vinegar acidic treatment "stays" in the meat and nitrite is not necessary... I think ???.... Biltong is not heated.. cool air dried.. Shit, I'm getting so old I can't remember all of this stuff...
If I have added confusion to this .... let me know.. I will try and help....
Dave

You can marinate the meat and crank up the smoker temp to 200 ish... Leave the meat "wet" with marinade... That "may" heat the jerky up to 160-165... but I doubt it...
Are you familiar with the "Dreaded Stall" when cooking meat.. the meat temps stop rising about 150-160 ish... That is due to evaporative cooling effect of the moisture in the meat... the moisture evaporates faster than the temp rise thus cooling the meat.. like you sweating in hot weather.. the meat may not get to the necessary temp... just one of those physics things...

So, I read that study in a different post I think which led to further searching, finally landing here. And, of course, more questions come up. What's different about making jerky than any other smoked meat? For bacon, summer sausage, sticks, etc, proper curing (mention of cure is absent in the published study) is all that's required to get the meat safe for the low temps and extended time. I get that we are drying jerky and not necessarily cooking it but the process isn't significantly different than, say sticks, in terms of temps and time. Of course there are variations in both but is seems relatively close. Should we be doing 10 min in a 275 deg oven for other stuff too? Hey, if a simple step of throwing it in the oven for 10 minutes takes care of business I'll do it, but if it's important for jerky (and I'm talking cured whole muscle jerky) why isn't it advised for the other smoked stuff we do?

 

[daveomak]

Mike, Do not mix and match recipes.. Do not talk sticks and jerky in the same sentence...
Pick a recipe, see if you have the stuff available to follow it EXACTLY... if not, find another recipe... Curing meats, drying meats, fermenting meats, making sausage etc. is a science..

Mike, afternoon... Reread you initial post...

Hi guys, I am looking to use cure #1 for the first time in a jerky and have some noobie questions. I am wanting to try a few different recipes, one with a dry rub and a couple with marinades.
With the marinade, do I just add the cure to the marinade? It wont affect flavour significantly and doesnt need to be washed off etc?
Do I need to factor the weight of the marinade into the calculator to work out the cure amount?
With the dry rub, can I add the cure to the dry rub and mix thoroughly? Or could this end up with some pieces that are over cured and bad? Is it best to instead use a brine first and then rinse thoroughly and use then add the dry rub to the meat and let it rest?
Thanks so much!

Now, don't get pissed or anything like that...

You do not mention if you are using ground meat or whole muscle... turkey, chicken, cougar or pork... you don't mention if you are using a dehydrator at 140 or 150 or 170... you don't say if you are using the oven or a smokehouse.... You don't say if you are planning on hot smoking or cold smoking or just hanging it outside because it's 10 below zero and the humidity is 5%...
All you see is the word JERKY and probably 99% of the folks out there, in the civilized world, are the same..
Now.... studies have shown... Dehydrated meats, where the temperature rise is slow, food borne pathogens can survive... the dehydration process puts them into a suspended animation state.... ONLY TO BE REVIVED in a warm, moist environment where they become reconstituted {restore (something dried, especially food) to its original state by adding water to it}: IN YOUR GUT... Now you have healthy pathogens in side your body...

All that being said, Universities try to find a way to educate the masses, about food safe "jerky", regardless of what kind of meat or drying, smoking process so they don't kill themselves, families or friends..

 

[mike1ranger]

Mike, Do not mix and match recipes.. Do not talk sticks and jerky in the same sentence...
Pick a recipe, see if you have the stuff available to follow it EXACTLY... if not, find another recipe... Curing meats, drying meats, fermenting meats, making sausage etc. is a science..

Mike, afternoon... Reread you initial post...

Hi guys, I am looking to use cure #1 for the first time in a jerky and have some noobie questions. I am wanting to try a few different recipes, one with a dry rub and a couple with marinades.
With the marinade, do I just add the cure to the marinade? It wont affect flavour significantly and doesnt need to be washed off etc?
Do I need to factor the weight of the marinade into the calculator to work out the cure amount?
With the dry rub, can I add the cure to the dry rub and mix thoroughly? Or could this end up with some pieces that are over cured and bad? Is it best to instead use a brine first and then rinse thoroughly and use then add the dry rub to the meat and let it rest?
Thanks so much!

Now, don't get pissed or anything like that...

You do not mention if you are using ground meat or whole muscle... turkey, chicken, cougar or pork... you don't mention if you are using a dehydrator at 140 or 150 or 170... you don't say if you are using the oven or a smokehouse.... You don't say if you are planning on hot smoking or cold smoking or just hanging it outside because it's 10 below zero and the humidity is 5%...
All you see is the word JERKY and probably 99% of the folks out there, in the civilized world, are the same..
Now.... studies have shown... Dehydrated meats, where the temperature rise is slow, food borne pathogens can survive... the dehydration process puts them into a suspended animation state.... ONLY TO BE REVIVED in a warm, moist environment where they become reconstituted {restore (something dried, especially food) to its original state by adding water to it}: IN YOUR GUT... Now you have healthy pathogens in side your body...

All that being said, Universities try to find a way to educate the masses, about food safe "jerky", regardless of what kind of meat or drying, smoking process so they don't kill themselves, families or friends..

A little misunderstanding here...I'm not pissed (no point, just a dude looking for more info) and I'm not the original poster. I came upon this thread after reading the article that you posted a link to and started digging into this deeper.

Having previously made jerky (whole muscle venison) several times, and having had spent a fair amount of time always looking to improve my product, I have seen many whole muscle jerky recipes and procedures (many on this site) and for the first time today see info about food safety beyond that of properly curing meat. So, with this new info that seemingly isn't well known, and coming upon this thread, I wanted to pose some additional questions. My comparison of various smoked meats isn't intended to mix recipes or processes but rather to understand why one type of smoked product (whole muscle venison jerky using proper curing) needs an additional step to kill the bad guys that the cure didn't when another product (such as bacon, sticks, summer sausage) would be considered safe using only the curing salt? Many guys would say, "I've been doing it this way for a long time and never got sick..." whereas even though I've 1) used TQ in recommended amounts; 2) added my whole muscle strips to the TQ and marinade spices; 3) marinade/cure for 24 hours; 4) pat dry then smoke at around 160 deg, and never had a problem and gotten sick, I won't be the guy that doesn't change when new info comes my way. Hence my questions to better understand something new to me when I previously thought I had things understood when doing jerky.

 

[daveomak]

The recipes many folks use, like you, were found to be deficient, as the University shows.. Sooooo, realizing certain pathogens were still able to make it to the table, they devised methods to put an end to that "staying" power of pathogens... Now the end user has new tools for increased food safety...
About the cure#1 added to jerky, where that Univ. study didn't mention it... Some folks like the flavor of meat when nitrite is added... In pork, it's a "hammy taste"... in beef, I think it's a "pastrami taste"... for lack of a better term... either way, the cure is added AFTER the proper steps were taken to make the jerky safe and in this case, the cure is added as a spice/herb for a flavor change... anywho, that's how I see it...
About the method thing.... I have seen where folks have a 3-6 step method for a meat product.. Taking steps 1-2 from one method, 3-4 from another method, and the last several steps from a different method, not realizing it doesn't work that way... steps in curing methods are there for a reason... just like in baking a cake, or bread etc.... The steps are in an order, the ingredients are added in a sequence for a reason.. If you don't follow the steps and directions, you ain't making bread, like in the picture.. baking is science.. Folks don't realize the exact same thing is happening with curing meats...
Anyhow, I'm glad you are taking this all in.. "trying to learn".... I think that's cool... So many think curing is adding a packet of stuff to meat and "VOILA"... it's done...
Seems food borne pathogens are more prevalent... we must keep up our guard to protect the ones we love... e-coli, salmonella and off the wall things like trichinella in wild meats are infecting folks often.. Hepatitis seems to be running wild now...
I've learned soooo much from the folks here... I'm trying to pay it forward in some small way.. and I'm anal about food safety... It's so easy to cook meats a bit longer and be sure.. use an electric thermometer to be sure... keep your fridge 1 or 2 degrees cooler...
Anyway, thanks for being patient with my ranting... You need anything ???? I'm here.... Dave

 

[rc4u]

Dave's method is used by many and safe and they like it.. I do not, I like mine more like commercial packed jerky. I only use the dry sprinkle on method. cure and season measured exact for #'s of muscle then mixed and sprinkled on cut pieces and put in baggy[never metal pans or containers as metallic taste will transfer] 1/2 on one side and flip and do other. after in 2 pound baggie knead and flated and refrigerate. I knead it several times and let sit for 24 hrs. I hang mine on bamboo sticks thru the smoker grates. I don't like the lay flat style as it take 3 trays for 12#s meat and can be hung on one tray and cooks even. now if you have some small pieces and thinner strips then put on jerky tray and place directly on top of the tray with hanging pieces. then van monitor those for earlier removal. I mosly use high mountain mixes and a few others from our smoke houses down in German towns in ND like Haag and Linton and Strausberg. very good. I just never got into the wet marinate as to me dry is better and easier. but to each his own..