How long with Cure#!

Discussion in 'Sausage' started by down lowe, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    How long can I have a product at let's say, 100 degrees with just using Cure#1?
     
  2. fpnmf

    fpnmf Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Fl
    Colud you give up  a little more info please??

      Craig
     
  3. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    I am trying to determine how long I can smoke/dry something like summer sausage or other similar product at a sub 140 temp with only adding cure#1.

    That help?
     
  4. nepas

    nepas Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    You can hold at low temps with cure #1 for quite awhile 1-10 hours or more.

    I have done many times at 80* cold smoke for 8 hrs+ with no adverse affects.....hey i'm still typing [​IMG]
     
  5. weisswurst

    weisswurst Smoke Blower

    I concur with meat mopper.That is one of the primary reasons for using #1. You can cold smoke at a low temp for quite some time. This is the range that some  microscopic critters thrive. The cure prevents them from doing their thing. Weisswurst
     
  6. smokinal

    smokinal Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member ★ Lifetime Premier ★

    Nepas knows his sausage!
     
  7. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Please follow a tested recipe.  

    It can be dangerous drawing generalities without knowing how you will handle the product, how long you will cure it for and how much cure you intend to use.

    The Summer Sausage Recipe I have (pg 406 Marianski book) calls for

    Grind all ingrediants and stuff the casings

    Ferment for 24 hrs at 86 degrees

    warm smoke 110 degrees for 6 hours

    Raise temp and smoke until internal 140 is obtained

    Dry for 3 days at 70-60 degrees if desired

    Sausage can be stored at 50 - 59 degrees and 75%  humidity

    It calls for the product to be at room temp for 24 hours then on the low smoke for 6 hours and what another 2 or three hours to get to internal 140?

    Follow a recipe until you get familiar with the process and results.  When you become comfortable with what you are doing you will have a lot of lattitude to develop your own tastes and styles.

    Just my advice, I'm not the sausage police.[​IMG]

    Al
     
  8. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    thanks for the replies, guys.  I am hoping to get some conrete guidance on this one. I am trying to avoid generalities.  That's why I asked the question.  I am seeking to understand how many hours I can cold smoke with Cure#1 without running into problems.  the science is out there,  I just can't seem to find it.

    I have followed some recipes, but was unhappy with the result.  I want a drier firmer summer sausage.  I have done an insane amount of research and I think there is a really good chance that i can get what i am looking for with a longer, lower temp smoke.  I just don't want to kill somebody with the results.
     
  9. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Why not tell us what you are doing now so we know where to start?  We cold smoke bacon for anywhere from 12 to 48 hours without any problems.  Dealing with a ground meat, stuffed sausage is a bit different because the bad bugs are introduced throughout the sausage and not just the outside as with bacon or whole cuts of meat. 

    If you do not have a summer sausage you are happy with and you have followed the recipes offered on this site by people that make good summer sausage you may be looking for something beside summer sausage.

    Please post the current recipe you are using and the cooking methods you are using.  Somebody may have a suggestion to get you where you want to go.  That's the only way I can see to give you the solid guidance you are looking for.

    Al
     
  10. chefrob

    chefrob Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    az
    well said..........
     
  11. pops6927

    pops6927 Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Is this using Cure #1 or Cure #2?  I thought you had to use Cure #2 in fermenting meats?  Or is that for a much longer fermentation time?
     
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  12. chefrob

    chefrob Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    az
    that recipe is for cure #1......as i understand it, it is for a much longer fermentation time. the longer time is needed for the nitrate to convert into nitrite.
     
  13. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    here is a link to the summer sausage I made a couple of batches ago - note comments at bottom of thread regarding texture.  Thanks for trying to help out.

    http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/102831/summer-sausage-q-view-new-pic

    However, I am not sure what that has to do with seeking out how long you can cold smoke safely using cure #1?  I just sent an email to foodsafety.gov.  we'll see where that leads.
     
  14. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    What Al says.

    One of my Dried Beef recipes calls for smoking low for a few days, but that isn't ground meat.

    I'm not sure that a super long time would correct anything you think it would correct.

    Also I don't have that Marianski book, but that "SS" recipe above sounds like a Cure #2 recipe.

    Bear
     
  15. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    I was hoping to test my theory on the longer smoke times, but want to ensure it's safe.  So,  I guess I am still looking for some guidance on how long you can safely go with cure#1.  I have not heard back from the government yet - will let you guys know if I do.

    thanks guys.
     
  16. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Down Low asked about Summer Sausage

    The recipes I am familiar with treat summer sausage as a fermented sausage

    I checked and the recipe I alluded to does indeed use Cure 1.  It is posted in the fermented sausages section and does require a F-LC culture.  Teewurst is cured for 48 hours at 64 degrees, Thuringer is cured for 24 hours at 86 degrees, Pepperoni (fast fermented - semi dry) is cured at 100 degrees  for 24 hours all use Cure 1 and added cultures.  The time after smoking when drying at room temps is limited to a matter of  2 - 4 days.  In fermented sausages the cure 1 is basically a way to slow the spread of bad bugs until the innoculated culture can change the pH of the product (outside of survivable range) and the amount of moisture available (the water is chemically bound and not available) to the bugs.

    Most smoked non-fermented sausage calls for curing at room temp for a couple of hours and then smoking.  Storage is in the refrigerator

    Some of the recipes that call for Cure 2  Cold Smoked Polish, Russian Sausage, Salamis, Pepperoni (slow fermented and dry) call for cure times in the 68 degree range for 3 - 8 days and then drying in a cool place (58-65) degrees for up to several months and may or may not required a fermenting culture

    I know it is clear as mud.  That is why I don't want to make specific recommendations on how long Cure 1 will keep a product safe in a slow smoke.  Just too many variables.  I do know that Nitrites dissipate fairly quickly, as little as 3 or 4 days depending on temp during the cure process thus the reason for using Cure 2 in the longer cure recipes.  As noted before the nitrates in cure 2 require bacterial action to produce the nitrite.   The effect of curing on a whole piece of meat (bacon) is different then in a commingled product like sausage, further complicating the estimate of times between recipes.

    Nitrite is reduced to NO by temp and moisture.  This is what kills the bad guys and protects the product

    Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by microbial activity and moisture  This does nothing to protect the product, the next step Nitrite to NO is the curative agent.

    I am simply not comfortable enough with the resources available to me to hazard an answer to the question  "how long does cure 1 extend the life of a product in a slow smoker".  I have some food safety paperwork that may be a bit more specific but that information is normally discussing the amount of time in storage after preparation.
     
  17. down lowe

    down lowe Fire Starter

    it's a blinger of a question now isn't it?[​IMG]

    I most likely would not stretch my schedule beyond 15 hours or so, and I think that should be OK, but when you read about the affect botulism can have I want to be more than confident.  

    We can kill this one I think.  I am going to peck away at the food safety.gov folks and see what I can some up with.  I'll let you all know if I find anything conclusive.  Thanks again for everyone's thoughts and input.
     
     
  18. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Great post Al !!

    I'm glad we got guys like you around to get into the technical stuff---My brain is no longer in shape for that kind of thing, and I have enough other worries to keep me from getting too tricky with my curing & smoking. This is why I try to stick to basics.

    I agree that it's too risky to say where the risky length of time would start, but I think 15 hours would be no problem, as long as the next question isn't, "How about 18?, 24?, 30?, etc, etc....

    Right?

    Thanks Al,

    Bear
     
  19. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Thanks Bear,

    There again, what I might do at home on my smoker, with me in control of the sanitary procedures, and rolling the dice with my belly is not necessarily what I would recommend someone else do.
     

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