Considering buying an Electric smoker

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I am not concerned with a smoke ring but this is what I found on a thread where it was being sought after using pellets, but at the same time this thread was addressing the extinguishing of the pellets from low air, absence of external heat and low oxygen issues, it is said that by mixing the charcoal bits with the pellets that it stops allot of the extinguishing issues most were having with the pellets, but it would seem most were due to low oxygen issues, the whole reason I put the stack on my smoker, I have only had one issue where it extinguished, it was incredibly humid but all I had to do was open the stack damper one notch and it was solved 
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Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.

MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.
 
 
 
I am not concerned with a smoke ring but this is what I found on a thread where it was being sought after using pellets, but at the same time this thread was addressing the extinguishing of the pellets from low air, absence of external heat and low oxygen issues, it is said that by mixing the charcoal bits with the pellets that it stops allot of the extinguishing issues most were having with the pellets, but it would seem most were due to low oxygen issues, the whole reason I put the stack on my smoker, I have only had one issue where it extinguished, it was incredibly humid but all I had to do was open the stack damper one notch and it was solved 
yahoo.gif
Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.

MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.
Rick,

See the MES 30 Sportsman Elite does not have a damper, well now with the new Smoke Stack I added it does, but this one has a fixed hole that is not adjustable and only about 5/8, maybe 3/4" ID, it is a sealing tube type collar that goes thru the double wall, hence why I put the stack on, but they are not considering using the pellet smoker either of course, I keep my pellets inside my house, maybe they stay a bit drier ????, not sure but I only had one issue so far, I believe it was high humidity and opening the damper on my smoke stack solved that, plus I reversed the bottom rack and put it in backwards, so this allowed me to get my pellets off the "S" part of the burner, when I was high temp cooking, it was burning the pellets up real fast lol, but I think I am going to put a regular rack on the bottom and center the AMNPS over the air intake in the bottom but raise it a bit to get it away from that element, I think centering it over the intake and raising it a little in the box to get it away from that element a bit more should help, but the biggest issue I would like to solve is get a real oven style t-stat set up, it is in the works, so I can set a temp and forget it every time.
You have a drip shield on your AMNPS ? If not it may be drippings snuffing your pellets.
 
 
Rick,

See the MES 30 Sportsman Elite does not have a damper, well now with the new Smoke Stack I added it does, but this one has a fixed hole that is not adjustable and only about 5/8, maybe 3/4" ID, it is a sealing tube type collar that goes thru the double wall, hence why I put the stack on, but they are not considering using the pellet smoker either of course, I keep my pellets inside my house, maybe they stay a bit drier ????, not sure but I only had one issue so far, I believe it was high humidity and opening the damper on my smoke stack solved that, plus I reversed the bottom rack and put it in backwards, so this allowed me to get my pellets off the "S" part of the burner, when I was high temp cooking, it was burning the pellets up real fast lol, but I think I am going to put a regular rack on the bottom and center the AMNPS over the air intake in the bottom but raise it a bit to get it away from that element, I think centering it over the intake and raising it a little in the box to get it away from that element a bit more should help, but the biggest issue I would like to solve is get a real oven style t-stat set up, it is in the works, so I can set a temp and forget it every time.
You have a drip shield on your AMNPS ? If not it may be drippings snuffing your pellets.
Guy, you have the analog model, right? I don't understand why MB felt those didn't need a heat vent or damper. I thought all MB smokers had those but I was wrong. The AMNPS was designed primarily for use in the MES 30 digital since that's the smoker Todd and friends did their R&D testing. Using it in other models calls for imagination and testing since the trays were designed to sit on those parallel bars on the bottom of the MES that the wood chip holder sits on as well. Seems like it was a lot of work for you to build that stack but seems like it was worth it.

Yeah, at cooking temps at 275° and above the pellets burn way faster. I had a problem last year with the sensors allowing the temp to soar up to 295° and I went thru two rows of pellets in about an hour or less. I no longer use a drip shield with the AMNPS because not much grease drips onto it. When it does it drips onto the 3rd row the way I have the maze positioned in my MES 30. So, no, the dripping grease isn't the reason the pellets go out since when it happens it's the pellets in the 1st or 2nd row that go out. I keep my pellets in their plastic bags inside my garage. I've had the same problem with older and with brand new pellets. The next time I smoke a beef brisket I'll try keeping the top vent closed and see if that works any better. I thought I'd come up with a fix for this last year until it started reoccurring this year. Well, I'm smoking beef jerky in a couple of days and after that I'll be smoking a brisket point so we'll see what happens on those smokes. I'll report back with Qview.
 
 
That's what I've run into.  In the past, with very low humidity (which is more normal around here), for both cold and hot smoking, I've had no problems as long as I pre-dried the pellets, got them burning very well, had the AMNPS up on the rails in the smoker so it's got good circulation below it, had the pellet hopper pulled out most of the way or even removed, had the chip tray open somewhat, and did NOT use the water pan in the smoker.

But recently, I've had the pellets go out, even with all of that done.  The one variable has been high humidities.  So I think the pellets absorb the moisture during the smoking session, and after an hour or so, they've absorbed enough moisture that they're no longer able to burn at this elevation.

But when it all works, it's great.  Nice smoke, not needing to open the door, and burning for a very long time, too!

I'll tell you what has made mine flare up, though!  I've been drying the daylights out of the pellets in our convection oven.  Then I light the AMNPS with a MAPP Gas torch.  That get's 'em going pretty good!  Then, I take a computer fan, holding it in my hand, to "blow" on the  pellets to REALLY get them going.  With the pellets so dry, and after using the fan to really get the cherry scorching along, they'll often burst into flames!  I can then NOT blow them out.  There's just too much hot smoke coming off of the cherries to not burst into flames.

I have to close the door on the smoker to get a reduced oxygen situation for a minute or so, and then I can usually blow the darned things out!  But this only happens because I've got the pellets so extremely dry at that point.  Since it's been humid, lately, this "problem" soon corrects itself, and then I'm back to having a hard time keeping them burning at all.

That's probably good advice.  You've got to start someplace, and then work your way into things as you see what's working or not for you, at your location, with your weather and elevation, etc.

The AMNPS or (as I probably should get for myself), one of the tube smoke generators just adds a bit of control because you separate the smoke generation from the cycling of the heating element.  I'm going to start a thread about some of this, with one of the main points being that ideally, we set things up to have separate control over every variable to give us the most control.  But, again, you have to start someplace, and then learn what works best for you in your particular situation and with your particular preferences and styles of cooking.

I started with an inexpensive Brinkmann (ECB) using charcoal and wood chunks.  It actually served me very well.  But I soon modified it to get it to work better for me here.  And it worked even better for me for some time.  Then I got an electric because I had seen them at the local Sam's Club, and I had bought a big pork butt, and as I pondered it, I decided that I really should just go get the electric and give it a try.

Over time, I've tweaked things and am still tweaking and modifying things to try to get what I want.  The cooking and the results are fun and worthwhile.  And the tinkering with the process and the equipment is another dimension to the hobby, just like anything else.  It's fun to experiment, build things, and modify both the equipment and the processes.

This forum is fantastic because you get to see everyone else's ideas and inventions and you get the benefit of their experience and recipes!

My experience has been just like yours.

High temperatures (or rather a large difference between the temperature in the smoker and the outside air) creates better draft up through the smoker.  If the air in the smoker cabinet is warmer than the outside air, then it will be at a lower density than the outside air, and that denser, heavier outside air will want to come into the bottom opening of the smoker chamber and displace that lower density air that's already inside.  That creates a good draft, and you get good circulation and fresh oxygen-rich air constantly siphoning into the bottom to keep the pellets burning.

I've had great luck cold smoking here when it's really cold out.  I've smoked cheese, for example, when it's cold outside because just the heat of the smoldering pellets warmed the inside of the smoker enough to create a draft.

I've done some cheese smoking when it was so cold outside (well below zero) that I had to intermittently turn the smoker on to keep the interior temperature up around 50 degrees F.  The heat from the smoldering pellets was not enough. (I need to modify the smoker so I can set temperatures to anything I want. The factory control won't let me set it below 100 degrees F, which is too hot for any cold smoking).

In both cases, I had good draft through the smoker, which kept the pellets burning just fine.  But, it's usually very dry here when it's cold outside.  So I had reasonable draft and low humidities.

But recently, I have had pellet burn failures due to high humidity.

In one case, I was making jerky at about 150 to 160 degrees.  But it was warm and humid outside.  So even though there was some draft, it wasn't enough to compensate for the extreme humidity.  I ended up using a small computer fan to force air through the smoker, and that helped both to keep the pellets going and to let me dry the jerky.  The poor draft and high humidity were making the drying take forever, but with the fan, it dried in just a few hours.

In another case, I was trying to cold smoke with no heat from the smoker.  So I just left it off.  It was about 68 degrees F out, but again, rather humid for here (about 40%).  Of course, there was absolutely no draft because the smoldering pellets weren't enough to create a good draft on their own.  Not enough temperature differential between the inside of the smoker and the ambient outside air, therefore, no density difference to create the convection draft.

So I used a small fan again, to force a draft through the smoker.  This made the pellets burn well.  Perhaps too well!  And it helped to keep the temperature in the smoker lower.  On the one hand, I could have used a higher inside temperature to get the draft I wanted, but on the other hand, I was smoking some butter, and didn't want the temperature to go above about 75 degrees F.  So the fan-forced setup was what I needed. I also ended up putting a pan of ice in the smoker to help hold the temperature down, and that worked beautifully.

I'm not an expert on the smoke ring, but from what I've read, it's a chemical reaction that you get between myoglobin in the meat and some products of combustion that are rich when you heat with charcoal, and to some extent with gas, but of course, not at all when you heat electrically.

Just the smoldering pellets or chips don't really create those products of combustion enough to get to the concentrations you need in the smoker to get a smoke ring.

And even if you used some charcoal to keep the pellets or wood chunks smoldering, it still may not be nearly enough to achieve the concentrations necessary to get that reaction.

But the "smoke ring" isn't really a good indicator of anything other than the fact that the meat was cooked in an atmosphere rich in those particular products of combustion.  It doesn't, in itself, give the meat any flavor, and it doesn't indicate whether or not the meat will have good flavor, either.  So it's just a visual thing only.  I don't worry about it at all because it doesn't affect the flavor or aroma of the finished meat.  But I do know that people are often conditioned to look for it.  You see the judges on those TV shows commenting on the "nice smoke ring" when judging the appearance of the meat.

They should do a smoked meat contest where only electric smokers are allowed!  Or have a blindfolded contest where the judges only rate the meat on its flavor, aroma, texture, etc.  No peeking!
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Can you post a photo of how you rig up that fan? I can't picture how it would work inside a smoker with all the heat, smoke and moisture going on. Every time I cold smoke the pellets go out for the reason you described so eloquently. I never pre-dry the pellets I use because I've had the same problem with new pellets straight out of the plastic bag. But I gotta come up with something because even when I thought I got the pellet tray fired up it goes out within 30 minutes or the pellets might stay lit because the interior temp is too high for cold smoking. Then that's a 2nd problem I need to deal with.

Fully agree with everything you wrote about smoke rings. I don't care about one but I don't mind getting into a discussion about how they're produced. And yep, you're also right about the crushed charcoal and wood chunks not producing enough gases to achieve a smoke ring. It gets me when those TV judges or someone who I think doesn't know real barbecue (like Guy Fieri) gushes over smoke rings in beef briskets or pork ribs.

Hey--we had a pro/am BBQ competition in my town last year. There were guys using offset barrel smoker stick burners AND electric smokers. And Weber charcoal grills as well! The electric smoker ribs and briskets turned out very, very good. I read an article a year or so ago AND NOW CAN'T FIND that Q from an electric smoker is better than the Q put out by many BBQ restaurants. In the case of Dickey's BBQ Pit and other chain BBQ places (and one local place that went out of business) I know that to be a fact. I'll take the ribs and briskets that come out of my MES 30 over those faux BBQ offerings. My goal is to someday chow down at one of the famous and fabled pit or stick burner places just for the experience of enjoying world class Q. Until then, my MES--with some qualifications--does just fine.

Also fully agree with everytig
 
 
 
Rick,

See the MES 30 Sportsman Elite does not have a damper, well now with the new Smoke Stack I added it does, but this one has a fixed hole that is not adjustable and only about 5/8, maybe 3/4" ID, it is a sealing tube type collar that goes thru the double wall, hence why I put the stack on, but they are not considering using the pellet smoker either of course, I keep my pellets inside my house, maybe they stay a bit drier ????, not sure but I only had one issue so far, I believe it was high humidity and opening the damper on my smoke stack solved that, plus I reversed the bottom rack and put it in backwards, so this allowed me to get my pellets off the "S" part of the burner, when I was high temp cooking, it was burning the pellets up real fast lol, but I think I am going to put a regular rack on the bottom and center the AMNPS over the air intake in the bottom but raise it a bit to get it away from that element, I think centering it over the intake and raising it a little in the box to get it away from that element a bit more should help, but the biggest issue I would like to solve is get a real oven style t-stat set up, it is in the works, so I can set a temp and forget it every time.
You have a drip shield on your AMNPS ? If not it may be drippings snuffing your pellets.
Guy, you have the analog model, right? I don't understand why MB felt those didn't need a heat vent or damper. I thought all MB smokers had those but I was wrong. The AMNPS was designed primarily for use in the MES 30 digital since that's the smoker Todd and friends did their R&D testing. Using it in other models calls for imagination and testing since the trays were designed to sit on those parallel bars on the bottom of the MES that the wood chip holder sits on as well. Seems like it was a lot of work for you to build that stack but seems like it was worth it.

Yeah, at cooking temps at 275° and above the pellets burn way faster. I had a problem last year with the sensors allowing the temp to soar up to 295° and I went thru two rows of pellets in about an hour or less. I no longer use a drip shield with the AMNPS because not much grease drips onto it. When it does it drips onto the 3rd row the way I have the maze positioned in my MES 30. So, no, the dripping grease isn't the reason the pellets go out since when it happens it's the pellets in the 1st or 2nd row that go out. I keep my pellets in their plastic bags inside my garage. I've had the same problem with older and with brand new pellets. The next time I smoke a beef brisket I'll try keeping the top vent closed and see if that works any better. I thought I'd come up with a fix for this last year until it started reoccurring this year. Well, I'm smoking beef jerky in a couple of days and after that I'll be smoking a brisket point so we'll see what happens on those smokes. I'll report back with Qview.
Yes I have the analog version, I choose that because of the rack mod I was going to do to it, and because I do not want the electronics when I would get a wireless probe set up anyway ..............
And no, the Smoke Stack was easy, and only cost 11.99 shipped to my door, but I did the stack Mod for the added ventilation for drying, I liked the fixed exhaust regarding smoking, and the bottom of mine is the same except mine does not have the chip heater and chute, it has a chip tray and a water tray on the bottom rack just above the heating element, there was no issue but to remove the chip tray and sit the AMNPS there, I ground notches in the AMNPS only so it would sit on the rails and be in the same place every time, just for consistency's sake, and then just turning the rack around and putting in backwards moved the AMNPS off of the "S" bend in the element so that frequent cycling of the element does not burn up my pellets so fast.
The rack Mod was the best, seeing I have 8 racks now which is nice, let alone that equates in over 1200 sq inches of cooking surface, it has already proved nice for doing large amounts of chicken, can't wait for the family get together, I will be able to cook 40 burgers and 40 dogs with some sausages with ease  :)
And I can get 6 quarters per rack in there as well, so it is going to be very nice for larger cooks, or as we traditionally do, once a month we go to the farm for fresh meats and we cook them, bag them and freeze them in portions, so now I can make all the burgers (we break up smoked burgers and use for spaghetti, manwiches etc), the roast and the chops in one cook, it will be sort of amazing hehehe, will just let the burger rest while I brine the chops and the roast then throw them all in the smoker, we are supposed to hit the farm this week, we have missed the last 2 weeks due to real life getting in our way, but we still got chops and burgers left anyway, so no rush.

Also, this is why I have a drip shield, because I have my AMNPS position just beside the air intake in the bottom of the smoker, maybe thats why my AMNPS is not going out, and also I do not want any drips at all on my AMNPS because it can create airborne ash to get on the food, the draft is low in these boxes when smoking and if on the side of the box it would seem to me it would be low oxygen anyway as the air would tend to rise up and create little convection back down the sides which in my opinion would not be a good spot for pellets that do need air to burn, I am actually going to remove the bottom rack and put a regular rack there, so this way I can position the AMNPS directly over the intake air port, but I found even with pans under the drippy stuff that splatter always finds its way to the bottom.

I too find that when high temp cooking the pellets are short lived, but I am getting a little over 2 1/2 hours out of mine at 300+, but then, like I said, I have moved my AMNPS off of the "S" portion of the element so it is not subject to all of that direct intense heat, before I made the adjustment on the position, it was burning my pellets up fast !

I am not sure what you have the AMNPS sitting on, but if it is not a open grate so air has access to the entire bottom of the AMNPS Tray, that may be your issue, in that case I have seen people here that raise the AMNPS Tray up with bolts so it has nothing obstructing the air from reaching the bottom of the tray.

If you have the hole dead center of the box in the bottom, then your should be the same, but if you open your chute as most do then that will reduce the air coming in that port which also acts as a drip drain as well, so in that case I would leave the chute closed and try and get the AMNPS close to the center where the air will be coming in, otherwise maybe find a way to move the AMNPS to a place where it could pick up some of the air from the chute if you do open it, if you are not going to use the feeder, then maybe seal it off inside, and drill holes in the top of the chip burner box, set your AMNPS there and leave the feeder tube open or partially open, this way you will have the fresh air drawn in the chute applied to the base of the AMNPS and you should be golden :)

I am too looking forward to finally doing some Jerky and a Brisket too, hopefully to the farm this Wed for meats, going to get the Brisket from Sams  :)
 
I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection. (It was handled and I'm OK now) That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could. Smoking meats was high on that list. My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF. Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.

What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES. Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use. The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do. For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.

Now I'm not trying to say that electrics are the wrong way to go because I've produced some good smokes on my MES as have many others here at SMF. All I'm trying to do is maybe challenge you to think through your rationale about the decision while considering other options.

I got my first Weber 22-1/2" OTG on CL for $30. You cannot get into an electric smoker at that price point without wearing a mask. I find clean-up no more onerous than with the electric. I stock up on charcoal when they run the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day specials so fuel cost is negligible.

Post here or PM me if you have questions and I'll try to give you my best advice based on what I've experienced.
 
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I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection. (It was handled and I'm OK now) That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could. Smoking meats was high on that list. My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF. Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.

What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES. Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use. The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do. For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.

Now I'm not trying to say that electrics are the wrong way to go because I've produced some good smokes on my MES as have many others here at SMF. All I'm trying to do is maybe challenge you to think through your rationale about the decision while considering other options.

I got my first Weber 22-1/2" OTG on CL for $30. You cannot get into an electric smoker at that price point without wearing a mask. I find clean-up no more onerous than with the electric. I stock up on charcoal when they run the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day specials so fuel cost is negligible.

Post here or PM me if you have questions and I'll try to give you my best advice based on what I've experienced.
My Analog has better smoke flavor than my old brinkman or the chargrill, but then I use the AMNPS Pellet Smoker  :), but then any MES should be the same as long as you have consistent smoke.
And I would never leave the Foodies, never !  Just never know what could happen, do not want to mess up the meats !  hehehe
 
 
I started with a Brinkman too hehehe
 

I start my AMNPS outside the smoker and let it get going well before I put in the box, the one time it was finicky was when I was doing 12 large chicken breasts, I do believe it was humidity but I opened the stack one notch and no more issues, and I am only 188 ft above sea level so altitude issues I think I am free from LOL

And I added the Smoke Stack which solved my air flow issue in reality as I can open it and induce a draft with very little heat, like the AMNPS, now if I just run the AMNPS, I open the Stack Damper all the way and get a very good draft, this is why I was planning to do that MOD when I bought this, although I liked the small exhaust vent it had, I also realized it would hamper drying as it was not in my opinion large enough to allow the needed air flow to dry well, and as well not enough to provide adequate air for the AMNPS as I had gathered that from reading so many posts.

And though it seems like so many seek the smoke ring, out of all the beautiful rings I have produced from my CharGrill on meats, I have never had a single person comment on the ring, only the flavor of the meat, I have never paid attention to it either, as you said, it has no effect on flavor and is just a result of certain cooking fuel uses, so I too agree with you when I say it makes no difference, it would be like judging meat on the color of the BBQ sauce rather than taste, juiciness and tenderness, I too agree that judges have no sense at all using that as a determination of a winning cooked meat, it is rather stupid if you ask me.

And as far as the charcoal, I would not use it to achieve the purposeless ring, I would use it to achieve what I had read in the article, that small chunks mixed with the pellets are ignited and burn hotter that the pellets as they smolder, thereby allowing the burning process over all to be improved, and many are saying it is solving their pellets going out issues, I will surely try it if I need to, but only once I have had the issue and the Smoke Stack damper adjustment took care of that  :)

My next mod will be that of a temperature control other than the type that is on the controller, it works fine but the issue here is the stat for the controller is in the nose of the controller, not where it should be in my opinion which would be higher in the box.
So I will be looking for a T-Stat with a remote bulb, and one as you pointed out would be settable to a temp as low as possible, not sure if they have one that goes down as far as 100 hehehe, but again I am like you, the lower the better, this way I will have a temp dial, again, I do not want electronics, the temp dial and remote bulb for the stat will allow me two things I currently do not have, a relative temp setting I can dial in consistently, and better temp control mid box instead of being governed by a probe that is in the very bottom of the box.

And yes, what fun would it be without Modifying stuff, I have lived modifying everything, engines in cars, motorcycles, small engines, various controllers in various electronic and electro-mechanical applications, not to mention my boat LOL.

All that said, got 10 lbs of chicken today and going to throw some smoke at em !

We have managed to miss the farm meat buying expedition for 2 weeks now, hopefully me and the wife can get on the same page this coming week for some eye of round for Jerky and maybe a couple of full briskets, can't wait !

 
I do think the elevation plays into this.  At near sea level, humidity may not be as much of an issue as it seems to be where I'm at.

I posted a rather long diatribe about some considerations when choosing the position of the sensor for your temperature controller in an oven or one of our smokers in another thread.  I should just link to that rather than repost it here because I worry that I'm derailing the OP's thread with some of this.  In fact, I was going to start a completely new thread with pictures and thoughts about some modifications to my particular MES, and then we could discuss a lot of these issues in that thread.

But I'll make at least one more "thread hijacking" post to this thread, and hope the OP doesn't mind.  :)

Just to keep things confusing, that other thread, and the similar discussions we're having there was here:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052

Quote:
 
Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.

MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.
I think that if you used the MES (at least those similar to my MES40) the way the manufacturer intended, keeping the top vent closed for smoking might well be a very good idea.

Their plan is that the heating element heats the wood chips and makes them smolder intermittently, every time the heating element kicks on.

With the vent closed, very little air would enter or exit the system.  So even though you're not heating by burning fuel, you'd probably end up with a fairly low oxygen environment.  But that's OK because you're not counting on the chips actually burning to maintain the smoke.  You're using the heating element to heat them to a high enough temperature where they decompose and emit smoke regardless.  And perhaps, you even get a high quality smoke because you aren't letting them really burn due to the low oxygen!

And at the same time, because you're not allowing air to move through the smoker, you don't need as much smoke (it's got no place to go except onto your food or other surfaces in the smoker).  And likewise, the heater doesn't need to work very hard, so it saves power.

But I still think people had problems with the chips not giving off enough smoke because the heater wasn't on enough of the time.  So the AMNPS and variations on it became popular.

But using them is really a lot different thing because you cannot keep them burning without some oxygen available.

Since I use the AMNPS, I, too, keep my top vent open.  I even add a section of duct to it to make it draw better, or resort to a fan to really get air moving through the unit!  :)

But if I was using the system the way it was designed, I might well do better with the top vent totally closed.
 
Can you post a photo of how you rig up that fan? I can't picture how it would work inside a smoker with all the heat, smoke and moisture going on. Every time I cold smoke the pellets go out for the reason you described so eloquently. I never pre-dry the pellets I use because I've had the same problem with new pellets straight out of the plastic bag. But I gotta come up with something because even when I thought I got the pellet tray fired up it goes out within 30 minutes or the pellets might stay lit because the interior temp is too high for cold smoking. Then that's a 2nd problem I need to deal with.

Fully agree with everything you wrote about smoke rings. I don't care about one but I don't mind getting into a discussion about how they're produced. And yep, you're also right about the crushed charcoal and wood chunks not producing enough gases to achieve a smoke ring. It gets me when those TV judges or someone who I think doesn't know real barbecue (like Guy Fieri) gushes over smoke rings in beef briskets or pork ribs.

Hey--we had a pro/am BBQ competition in my town last year. There were guys using offset barrel smoker stick burners AND electric smokers. And Weber charcoal grills as well! The electric smoker ribs and briskets turned out very, very good. I read an article a year or so ago AND NOW CAN'T FIND that Q from an electric smoker is better than the Q put out by many BBQ restaurants. In the case of Dickey's BBQ Pit and other chain BBQ places (and one local place that went out of business) I know that to be a fact. I'll take the ribs and briskets that come out of my MES 30 over those faux BBQ offerings. My goal is to someday chow down at one of the famous and fabled pit or stick burner places just for the experience of enjoying world class Q. Until then, my MES--with some qualifications--does just fine.

Also fully agree with everytig
Here's the main thing.  I put the fan on the outside of the smoker, blowing into the intake like this:


That's the "extreme mode" where it's covering the entire inlet opening and blasting a LOT of air through the unit.  That works pretty good for getting jerky to dry!

I mounted some little neodymium magnets to the corners of the fan so I can just stick it where ever I want.  It really moves too much air, so I have to keep it way off to the edge of the opening.  But a guy on that other thread suggested getting a variable speed fan setup and posted a link to the one he uses.  It really would be great to be able to run the fan at an extremely slow speed.  But just putting a baffle in front of it would block most of it, too.  So there could be a lot of ways to get just the right amount of air flow.

I originally came up with this when I couldn't get my Jerky to dry in a reasonable time.  The temperature I was at was 150 to 160, and it just wouldn't draw much even with the top vent all the way open, so I slapped this baby on there, and the jerky dried in a couple of hours.

But I also used it the other night to make some cold-smoked butter.  I really needed something to blow the air through the unit because there was NO draft because I had the smoker turned completely off to keep the temperature low.

It actually worked too well.  I think I made the pellets burn too hot and fast, and the quality of the smoke was not good.  I'm thinking that you want the pellets burning cool and slow to get good TBS.  When they burn too well and too hot, you get more of the creosote type smoke.  Not as blue.  More to the white, nasty side of things.  So I should have throttled things back.

But I was going to start a thread about that whole process, too, so I don't want to clutter this thread with all of that, either.

Here's how I finally attached the little magnets to the corners of the fan:


I added some wire to the thing to give me a lot of slack between where I have the smoker and the nearest electrical outlet into which I plug the "wall wart" for it.

I took out the whole chip tray and it's associated metalwork from inside of my MES, and put some crude ductwork and deflectors inside to try to get things to work better.  And I think it succeeded beyond my dreams.  That's why I got the "too good" burn of the pellets this last time.

I took out all of the original metalwork and added a duct leading from the inlet past the heating element, and then aimed right at where I put the AMNPS.  There are some other heat shields and drip guards in place, too.  All of it made of disposable steam-tray covers for temporary experimentation.


The idea was to get the incoming air to blow right at the AMNPS.  But then, since I was cold smoking butter, I stuck the fan partway blowing into the intake:


Those are strong little magnets, so I just let it hang down low, partway blowing into the inlet.  Pardon the crude flashlight illumination used in the photo. 

But even when only partially blowing into the inlet, it was still a bit too much, I fear.

Not that it went bad. I thought it was doing well.  It burned about 3/4 of a row of pellets in about 3 hours.  So that seemed good.  But man, that butter is SMOKY!

But I also did this:


This might be kind of hard to see.  But I cut each cube of butter into four smaller pieces to give them more surface area, because people said they had a hard time getting any smoke penetration into butter.  I figured why not just increase the surface area to collect smoke? 
biggrin.gif


Then, as if that wasn't enough, and since it was a cold smoke (no heat applied at all), I got another computer fan, that had a bracket attached to it that I'd made to blow on some hard drives in an old computer, and set it into the rack above the butter to blow down gently onto the butter, hoping to force smoke to go down into that deep pan so it wouldn't miss out on anything.

It's a 12 Volt fan, but operating off of a 5 Volt supply, so it ran nice and slow, but it really did keep the smoke stirred up and even-looking, and forced it to flow down in and around the butter pieces.  Perfect!

But I think I could've used little or no augmentation of the air coming into the system and aimed at the AMNPS.  It looked like a nice amount of smoke, but man, baby, that's some smoky butter!

And, I could have just given it an hour, and it might have been fine.

I took the butter out of the smoker, pressed the four pieces of each stick back together, then vacuum sealed them all as individual "sticks" of butter.

They sat in the fridge for 3 days, and then I couldn't stand it and pulled one of them out and let it get up to room temp.  Then I kneaded it in the vacuum bag and really got it all mixed together really well.  Then I smooshed it all against one corner, clipped off that corner of the bag, and dispensed it out into a little container as if I was using a cake frosting piping bag.

I had my wife try some, and she actually loved it!  And she usually thinks I use too much smoke on everything.  So I don't know.

I just think that I may have gotten too high of a burning temperature on the pellets and shifted things toward thick white smoke with that creosote flavor.  But I need to let it mellow longer and try it on some different things before I pass judgement.

I guess the main point was that with a fan, you can easily have way too much of a good thing!  So I need to do a better job of blocking all but just the right amount of airflow when I use a fan.

Once again, the slow fan inside was only able to be used because this was a completely cold smoke, with the heat turned all the way off.
 
Yes I have the analog version, I choose that because of the rack mod I was going to do to it, and because I do not want the electronics when I would get a wireless probe set up anyway ..............
And no, the Smoke Stack was easy, and only cost 11.99 shipped to my door, but I did the stack Mod for the added ventilation for drying, I liked the fixed exhaust regarding smoking, and the bottom of mine is the same except mine does not have the chip heater and chute, it has a chip tray and a water tray on the bottom rack just above the heating element, there was no issue but to remove the chip tray and sit the AMNPS there, I ground notches in the AMNPS only so it would sit on the rails and be in the same place every time, just for consistency's sake, and then just turning the rack around and putting in backwards moved the AMNPS off of the "S" bend in the element so that frequent cycling of the element does not burn up my pellets so fast.
The rack Mod was the best, seeing I have 8 racks now which is nice, let alone that equates in over 1200 sq inches of cooking surface, it has already proved nice for doing large amounts of chicken, can't wait for the family get together, I will be able to cook 40 burgers and 40 dogs with some sausages with ease  :)
And I can get 6 quarters per rack in there as well, so it is going to be very nice for larger cooks, or as we traditionally do, once a month we go to the farm for fresh meats and we cook them, bag them and freeze them in portions, so now I can make all the burgers (we break up smoked burgers and use for spaghetti, manwiches etc), the roast and the chops in one cook, it will be sort of amazing hehehe, will just let the burger rest while I brine the chops and the roast then throw them all in the smoker, we are supposed to hit the farm this week, we have missed the last 2 weeks due to real life getting in our way, but we still got chops and burgers left anyway, so no rush.

Also, this is why I have a drip shield, because I have my AMNPS position just beside the air intake in the bottom of the smoker, maybe thats why my AMNPS is not going out, and also I do not want any drips at all on my AMNPS because it can create airborne ash to get on the food, the draft is low in these boxes when smoking and if on the side of the box it would seem to me it would be low oxygen anyway as the air would tend to rise up and create little convection back down the sides which in my opinion would not be a good spot for pellets that do need air to burn, I am actually going to remove the bottom rack and put a regular rack there, so this way I can position the AMNPS directly over the intake air port, but I found even with pans under the drippy stuff that splatter always finds its way to the bottom.

I too find that when high temp cooking the pellets are short lived, but I am getting a little over 2 1/2 hours out of mine at 300+, but then, like I said, I have moved my AMNPS off of the "S" portion of the element so it is not subject to all of that direct intense heat, before I made the adjustment on the position, it was burning my pellets up fast !

I am not sure what you have the AMNPS sitting on, but if it is not a open grate so air has access to the entire bottom of the AMNPS Tray, that may be your issue, in that case I have seen people here that raise the AMNPS Tray up with bolts so it has nothing obstructing the air from reaching the bottom of the tray.

If you have the hole dead center of the box in the bottom, then your should be the same, but if you open your chute as most do then that will reduce the air coming in that port which also acts as a drip drain as well, so in that case I would leave the chute closed and try and get the AMNPS close to the center where the air will be coming in, otherwise maybe find a way to move the AMNPS to a place where it could pick up some of the air from the chute if you do open it, if you are not going to use the feeder, then maybe seal it off inside, and drill holes in the top of the chip burner box, set your AMNPS there and leave the feeder tube open or partially open, this way you will have the fresh air drawn in the chute applied to the base of the AMNPS and you should be golden :)

I am too looking forward to finally doing some Jerky and a Brisket too, hopefully to the farm this Wed for meats, going to get the Brisket from Sams  :)
Interesting!   So you have your AMNPS right over the heating element.  I can see how that would keep the pellets dry, for one thing.  Induce an upward air current under the AMNPS, for another.  And being on the side with the air vent, assure better oxygen to them.

On the other hand, it might lead to much faster burning of the pellets, especially when operating at higher temperatures which require the heater to be on more of the time.

You can see above how I ducted the incoming air right toward the AMNPS even through it sits over to the left.  And that duct will be heated a bit by the heating element which may help to warm and dry the incoming air during hot smoking operations.

But a lesson I may have learned is this:

Although you don't want the pellets to go out.  You also don't really want them burning too well, either, because they make the best tasting smoke when they're on that verge of going out.

I read a Wikipedia article about smoking, and it said that if the combustion temperature of the smoking wood is too high, it will make the good tasting stuff, but then the high temperatures will break those molecules down into bad-tasting stuff.  So you really want your smoke generator to burn the wood at a low temperature.  And to that end, my fan blowing into the duct aimed right at the AMNPS may have been going too darned far!

I really would like to experiment with combustion conditions and see if I can control things so the pellets don't go out, but also produce only good-tasting smoke.

I think we may need continuous infra-red temperature measurement and a controller to operate a damper or fan to keep the pellets burning, but just not too darned well!  ;)

More of the "modify everything" philosophy at work!
 
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I started with a Brinkman too hehehe
 

I start my AMNPS outside the smoker and let it get going well before I put in the box, the one time it was finicky was when I was doing 12 large chicken breasts, I do believe it was humidity but I opened the stack one notch and no more issues, and I am only 188 ft above sea level so altitude issues I think I am free from LOL

And I added the Smoke Stack which solved my air flow issue in reality as I can open it and induce a draft with very little heat, like the AMNPS, now if I just run the AMNPS, I open the Stack Damper all the way and get a very good draft, this is why I was planning to do that MOD when I bought this, although I liked the small exhaust vent it had, I also realized it would hamper drying as it was not in my opinion large enough to allow the needed air flow to dry well, and as well not enough to provide adequate air for the AMNPS as I had gathered that from reading so many posts.

And though it seems like so many seek the smoke ring, out of all the beautiful rings I have produced from my CharGrill on meats, I have never had a single person comment on the ring, only the flavor of the meat, I have never paid attention to it either, as you said, it has no effect on flavor and is just a result of certain cooking fuel uses, so I too agree with you when I say it makes no difference, it would be like judging meat on the color of the BBQ sauce rather than taste, juiciness and tenderness, I too agree that judges have no sense at all using that as a determination of a winning cooked meat, it is rather stupid if you ask me.

And as far as the charcoal, I would not use it to achieve the purposeless ring, I would use it to achieve what I had read in the article, that small chunks mixed with the pellets are ignited and burn hotter that the pellets as they smolder, thereby allowing the burning process over all to be improved, and many are saying it is solving their pellets going out issues, I will surely try it if I need to, but only once I have had the issue and the Smoke Stack damper adjustment took care of that  :)

My next mod will be that of a temperature control other than the type that is on the controller, it works fine but the issue here is the stat for the controller is in the nose of the controller, not where it should be in my opinion which would be higher in the box.
So I will be looking for a T-Stat with a remote bulb, and one as you pointed out would be settable to a temp as low as possible, not sure if they have one that goes down as far as 100 hehehe, but again I am like you, the lower the better, this way I will have a temp dial, again, I do not want electronics, the temp dial and remote bulb for the stat will allow me two things I currently do not have, a relative temp setting I can dial in consistently, and better temp control mid box instead of being governed by a probe that is in the very bottom of the box.

And yes, what fun would it be without Modifying stuff, I have lived modifying everything, engines in cars, motorcycles, small engines, various controllers in various electronic and electro-mechanical applications, not to mention my boat LOL.

All that said, got 10 lbs of chicken today and going to throw some smoke at em !

We have managed to miss the farm meat buying expedition for 2 weeks now, hopefully me and the wife can get on the same page this coming week for some eye of round for Jerky and maybe a couple of full briskets, can't wait !

 
I do think the elevation plays into this.  At near sea level, humidity may not be as much of an issue as it seems to be where I'm at.

I posted a rather long diatribe about some considerations when choosing the position of the sensor for your temperature controller in an oven or one of our smokers in another thread.  I should just link to that rather than repost it here because I worry that I'm derailing the OP's thread with some of this.  In fact, I was going to start a completely new thread with pictures and thoughts about some modifications to my particular MES, and then we could discuss a lot of these issues in that thread.

But I'll make at least one more "thread hijacking" post to this thread, and hope the OP doesn't mind.  :)

Just to keep things confusing, that other thread, and the similar discussions we're having there was here:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052

Quote:
 
Just re-read the MES 30 owners manual. It says uh uh--no charcoal briquettes or heat pellets. Some guys will put a whole charcoal briquette under the heating element to get that smoke ring. Like you, I wouldn't even mix the wood pellets with crushed briquettes.

MB also recommends the damper be fully closed for most smoking, open only for high moisture smoking of jerky or fish. But this seems counterintuitive to me. If there are airflow or oxygen problems inside the smoker keeping that top vent closed would likely exacerbate them to my unscientific way of thinking. I smoke with the top vent wide open but there can still be problems with the pellets snuffing out.
I think that if you used the MES (at least those similar to my MES40) the way the manufacturer intended, keeping the top vent closed for smoking might well be a very good idea.

Their plan is that the heating element heats the wood chips and makes them smolder intermittently, every time the heating element kicks on.

With the vent closed, very little air would enter or exit the system.  So even though you're not heating by burning fuel, you'd probably end up with a fairly low oxygen environment.  But that's OK because you're not counting on the chips actually burning to maintain the smoke.  You're using the heating element to heat them to a high enough temperature where they decompose and emit smoke regardless.  And perhaps, you even get a high quality smoke because you aren't letting them really burn due to the low oxygen!

And at the same time, because you're not allowing air to move through the smoker, you don't need as much smoke (it's got no place to go except onto your food or other surfaces in the smoker).  And likewise, the heater doesn't need to work very hard, so it saves power.

But I still think people had problems with the chips not giving off enough smoke because the heater wasn't on enough of the time.  So the AMNPS and variations on it became popular.

But using them is really a lot different thing because you cannot keep them burning without some oxygen available.

Since I use the AMNPS, I, too, keep my top vent open.  I even add a section of duct to it to make it draw better, or resort to a fan to really get air moving through the unit!  :)

But if I was using the system the way it was designed, I might well do better with the top vent totally closed.
 
Can you post a photo of how you rig up that fan? I can't picture how it would work inside a smoker with all the heat, smoke and moisture going on. Every time I cold smoke the pellets go out for the reason you described so eloquently. I never pre-dry the pellets I use because I've had the same problem with new pellets straight out of the plastic bag. But I gotta come up with something because even when I thought I got the pellet tray fired up it goes out within 30 minutes or the pellets might stay lit because the interior temp is too high for cold smoking. Then that's a 2nd problem I need to deal with.

Fully agree with everything you wrote about smoke rings. I don't care about one but I don't mind getting into a discussion about how they're produced. And yep, you're also right about the crushed charcoal and wood chunks not producing enough gases to achieve a smoke ring. It gets me when those TV judges or someone who I think doesn't know real barbecue (like Guy Fieri) gushes over smoke rings in beef briskets or pork ribs.

Hey--we had a pro/am BBQ competition in my town last year. There were guys using offset barrel smoker stick burners AND electric smokers. And Weber charcoal grills as well! The electric smoker ribs and briskets turned out very, very good. I read an article a year or so ago AND NOW CAN'T FIND that Q from an electric smoker is better than the Q put out by many BBQ restaurants. In the case of Dickey's BBQ Pit and other chain BBQ places (and one local place that went out of business) I know that to be a fact. I'll take the ribs and briskets that come out of my MES 30 over those faux BBQ offerings. My goal is to someday chow down at one of the famous and fabled pit or stick burner places just for the experience of enjoying world class Q. Until then, my MES--with some qualifications--does just fine.

Also fully agree with everytig
Here's the main thing.  I put the fan on the outside of the smoker, blowing into the intake like this:


That's the "extreme mode" where it's covering the entire inlet opening and blasting a LOT of air through the unit.  That works pretty good for getting jerky to dry!

I mounted some little neodymium magnets to the corners of the fan so I can just stick it where ever I want.  It really moves too much air, so I have to keep it way off to the edge of the opening.  But a guy on that other thread suggested getting a variable speed fan setup and posted a link to the one he uses.  It really would be great to be able to run the fan at an extremely slow speed.  But just putting a baffle in front of it would block most of it, too.  So there could be a lot of ways to get just the right amount of air flow.

I originally came up with this when I couldn't get my Jerky to dry in a reasonable time.  The temperature I was at was 150 to 160, and it just wouldn't draw much even with the top vent all the way open, so I slapped this baby on there, and the jerky dried in a couple of hours.

But I also used it the other night to make some cold-smoked butter.  I really needed something to blow the air through the unit because there was NO draft because I had the smoker turned completely off to keep the temperature low.

It actually worked too well.  I think I made the pellets burn too hot and fast, and the quality of the smoke was not good.  I'm thinking that you want the pellets burning cool and slow to get good TBS.  When they burn too well and too hot, you get more of the creosote type smoke.  Not as blue.  More to the white, nasty side of things.  So I should have throttled things back.

But I was going to start a thread about that whole process, too, so I don't want to clutter this thread with all of that, either.

Here's how I finally attached the little magnets to the corners of the fan:


I added some wire to the thing to give me a lot of slack between where I have the smoker and the nearest electrical outlet into which I plug the "wall wart" for it.

I took out the whole chip tray and it's associated metalwork from inside of my MES, and put some crude ductwork and deflectors inside to try to get things to work better.  And I think it succeeded beyond my dreams.  That's why I got the "too good" burn of the pellets this last time.

I took out all of the original metalwork and added a duct leading from the inlet past the heating element, and then aimed right at where I put the AMNPS.  There are some other heat shields and drip guards in place, too.  All of it made of disposable steam-tray covers for temporary experimentation.


The idea was to get the incoming air to blow right at the AMNPS.  But then, since I was cold smoking butter, I stuck the fan partway blowing into the intake:


Those are strong little magnets, so I just let it hang down low, partway blowing into the inlet.  Pardon the crude flashlight illumination used in the photo. 

But even when only partially blowing into the inlet, it was still a bit too much, I fear.

Not that it went bad. I thought it was doing well.  It burned about 3/4 of a row of pellets in about 3 hours.  So that seemed good.  But man, that butter is SMOKY!

But I also did this:


This might be kind of hard to see.  But I cut each cube of butter into four smaller pieces to give them more surface area, because people said they had a hard time getting any smoke penetration into butter.  I figured why not just increase the surface area to collect smoke? 
biggrin.gif


Then, as if that wasn't enough, and since it was a cold smoke (no heat applied at all), I got another computer fan, that had a bracket attached to it that I'd made to blow on some hard drives in an old computer, and set it into the rack above the butter to blow down gently onto the butter, hoping to force smoke to go down into that deep pan so it wouldn't miss out on anything.

It's a 12 Volt fan, but operating off of a 5 Volt supply, so it ran nice and slow, but it really did keep the smoke stirred up and even-looking, and forced it to flow down in and around the butter pieces.  Perfect!

But I think I could've used little or no augmentation of the air coming into the system and aimed at the AMNPS.  It looked like a nice amount of smoke, but man, baby, that's some smoky butter!

And, I could have just given it an hour, and it might have been fine.

I took the butter out of the smoker, pressed the four pieces of each stick back together, then vacuum sealed them all as individual "sticks" of butter.

They sat in the fridge for 3 days, and then I couldn't stand it and pulled one of them out and let it get up to room temp.  Then I kneaded it in the vacuum bag and really got it all mixed together really well.  Then I smooshed it all against one corner, clipped off that corner of the bag, and dispensed it out into a little container as if I was using a cake frosting piping bag.

I had my wife try some, and she actually loved it!  And she usually thinks I use too much smoke on everything.  So I don't know.

I just think that I may have gotten too high of a burning temperature on the pellets and shifted things toward thick white smoke with that creosote flavor.  But I need to let it mellow longer and try it on some different things before I pass judgement.

I guess the main point was that with a fan, you can easily have way too much of a good thing!  So I need to do a better job of blocking all but just the right amount of airflow when I use a fan.

Once again, the slow fan inside was only able to be used because this was a completely cold smoke, with the heat turned all the way off.
 
Yes I have the analog version, I choose that because of the rack mod I was going to do to it, and because I do not want the electronics when I would get a wireless probe set up anyway ..............
And no, the Smoke Stack was easy, and only cost 11.99 shipped to my door, but I did the stack Mod for the added ventilation for drying, I liked the fixed exhaust regarding smoking, and the bottom of mine is the same except mine does not have the chip heater and chute, it has a chip tray and a water tray on the bottom rack just above the heating element, there was no issue but to remove the chip tray and sit the AMNPS there, I ground notches in the AMNPS only so it would sit on the rails and be in the same place every time, just for consistency's sake, and then just turning the rack around and putting in backwards moved the AMNPS off of the "S" bend in the element so that frequent cycling of the element does not burn up my pellets so fast.
The rack Mod was the best, seeing I have 8 racks now which is nice, let alone that equates in over 1200 sq inches of cooking surface, it has already proved nice for doing large amounts of chicken, can't wait for the family get together, I will be able to cook 40 burgers and 40 dogs with some sausages with ease  :)
And I can get 6 quarters per rack in there as well, so it is going to be very nice for larger cooks, or as we traditionally do, once a month we go to the farm for fresh meats and we cook them, bag them and freeze them in portions, so now I can make all the burgers (we break up smoked burgers and use for spaghetti, manwiches etc), the roast and the chops in one cook, it will be sort of amazing hehehe, will just let the burger rest while I brine the chops and the roast then throw them all in the smoker, we are supposed to hit the farm this week, we have missed the last 2 weeks due to real life getting in our way, but we still got chops and burgers left anyway, so no rush.

Also, this is why I have a drip shield, because I have my AMNPS position just beside the air intake in the bottom of the smoker, maybe thats why my AMNPS is not going out, and also I do not want any drips at all on my AMNPS because it can create airborne ash to get on the food, the draft is low in these boxes when smoking and if on the side of the box it would seem to me it would be low oxygen anyway as the air would tend to rise up and create little convection back down the sides which in my opinion would not be a good spot for pellets that do need air to burn, I am actually going to remove the bottom rack and put a regular rack there, so this way I can position the AMNPS directly over the intake air port, but I found even with pans under the drippy stuff that splatter always finds its way to the bottom.

I too find that when high temp cooking the pellets are short lived, but I am getting a little over 2 1/2 hours out of mine at 300+, but then, like I said, I have moved my AMNPS off of the "S" portion of the element so it is not subject to all of that direct intense heat, before I made the adjustment on the position, it was burning my pellets up fast !

I am not sure what you have the AMNPS sitting on, but if it is not a open grate so air has access to the entire bottom of the AMNPS Tray, that may be your issue, in that case I have seen people here that raise the AMNPS Tray up with bolts so it has nothing obstructing the air from reaching the bottom of the tray.

If you have the hole dead center of the box in the bottom, then your should be the same, but if you open your chute as most do then that will reduce the air coming in that port which also acts as a drip drain as well, so in that case I would leave the chute closed and try and get the AMNPS close to the center where the air will be coming in, otherwise maybe find a way to move the AMNPS to a place where it could pick up some of the air from the chute if you do open it, if you are not going to use the feeder, then maybe seal it off inside, and drill holes in the top of the chip burner box, set your AMNPS there and leave the feeder tube open or partially open, this way you will have the fresh air drawn in the chute applied to the base of the AMNPS and you should be golden :)

I am too looking forward to finally doing some Jerky and a Brisket too, hopefully to the farm this Wed for meats, going to get the Brisket from Sams  :)
Interesting!   So you have your AMNPS right over the heating element.  I can see how that would keep the pellets dry, for one thing.  Induce an upward air current under the AMNPS, for another.  And being on the side with the air vent, assure better oxygen to them.

On the other hand, it might lead to much faster burning of the pellets, especially when operating at higher temperatures which require the heater to be on more of the time.

You can see above how I ducted the incoming air right toward the AMNPS even through it sits over to the left.  And that duct will be heated a bit by the heating element which may help to warm and dry the incoming air during hot smoking operations.

But a lesson I may have learned is this:

Although you don't want the pellets to go out.  You also don't really want them burning too well, either, because they make the best tasting smoke when they're on that verge of going out.

I read a Wikipedia article about smoking, and it said that if the combustion temperature of the smoking wood is too high, it will make the good tasting stuff, but then the high temperatures will break those molecules down into bad-tasting stuff.  So you really want your smoke generator to burn the wood at a low temperature.  And to that end, my fan blowing into the duct aimed right at the AMNPS may have been going too darned far!

I really would like to experiment with combustion conditions and see if I can control things so the pellets don't go out, but also produce only good-tasting smoke.

I think we may need continuous infra-red temperature measurement and a controller to operate a damper or fan to keep the pellets burning, but just not too darned well!  ;)

More of the "modify everything" philosophy at work!
Sigmo,

Love the thoughts, this is how it is done, so many ideas and eventually with all this we will find a way to get it right, then we need to join together and produce our own brand !

My AMNPS is over the Element, but I too ran into the issue of high temps burning the pellets, so that is why I posted the "AMNPS Flare Up Mod", on my analogs design, there is no chip chute or associated hardware, just a rack of sorts that holds the chip tray and the water bowl, but as you stated, original design was for the element to heat the chips, well with the AMNPS in place of the Chip Tray, it was directly above that "S" bend in the element and exposed to the heat when the element was burning in a big way, this is why I found that by turning the bottom rack 180 degrees backwards and re-inserting it placed the AMNPS pretty much in the center of the opening on the left of the element, this solved that issue almost completely, almost, with higher temp cooking it still led to higher temps and faster use of the pellets but seriously reduced from the previous position, I have another MOD in the works (in my mind) that will eliminate that, but I need to think on it more, you see you have that chip chute for air intake, but mine has a 3/4" hole drilled center and the bottom plate of the box is inclined from the 4 sides of the bottom to the hole (intake) at the bottom, so yes getting the AMNPS repositioned from above that "S" in the element was a good choice, but the AMNPS is still above the element, this is why I made the comment on the propane units to try and place the AMNPS as low as possible, to remove the heat being produced from the pellet smoldering process, so the same stands true in my situation, I need to get the AMNPS below the heating element and no offense but I am not fond of the mailbox mod just because it makes a mess of the box and to much stuff here and there not really part of the smoker, I want a cleaner answer lets say, but I believe I have the answer, just need to go stare at the box and get the design straight in my mind.

Now my opinion here, but, with the AMNPS burning as it should, it does produce heat, so there should be enough draft to accommodate drying with the new stack wide open, was not enough period with the two 3/4" holes for intake and exhaust on this model, but should be enough for drying and should maintain a constant but slow draft, should, but my issue on my model is that the intake (doubles as a drain into the drip pan) is not enough, so I have fixed the exhaust, now to make amends on the intake air, I have a plan !!!!

Although the bottom is inclined with a angle for each quarter to the drain, it will make what I am planning somewhat interesting to make to look appeasing, but I have a answer, but cannot explain it quite as I would like, show and tell would be better, maybe I can produce kits and sell them as it would not be hard to do, but would entail that I have on hand each of the different box designs that would change my design, but that may not even be a issue regarding buying one, as the models other than mine seem to have a flat bottom which would not create any issues at all, but what I am pondering would be permanently attached to the Box and would be small in comparison to the mailbox and there would be no duct, I do not believe that the AMNOS would produce enough heat to ruin cold smoking or drying, especially if you have the appropriate draft, and we do not needs allot, just a minimal draft to keep the AMNPS in oxygen and the smoke moving and or deflected or diffused in the box, something as simple as a diffuser sheet located above the AMNPS and below the first rack should suffice for that, it would need to be small tightly spaced holes in a sheet like a common HVAC Diffuser, it would serve the purpose of diffusing the air and smoke across the entire area of the box, it would also (in my opinion) most likely cure most hot spots as it would be diffusing the air, the smoke and by working on diffusing the air then it would also even heat throughout the box as well and at the same time diffuse the smoke so no areas of the box would be subject to air rising vertically to the exhaust, this is another reason I put my Smoke Stack dead center, did not want to have it in the back or a corner or one side, as the convection would effect the heat and the smoke as it traveled in the box from bottom to top.

The only thing I have to really figure out on the AMNPS Mod I am thinking of doing is how to dial in the intake air, but that should regulate itself, I just need to be careful of the ports I use in the box, as too much and it could lead to combustion of the pellets, so it has to be a fixed intake port for the AMNPS so that it is not affected by changes in draft in the box, this is the perplexing part that has smoke coming out of my ears at the moment.

I think I have a plan, but I need to go and stare at the box and get my friend to bring me another thin piece of aluminum for me to play with :)

But to be honest, I think the only way to fix the heat issue is to raise the heating element in regards to the AMNPS, of course I would have to lengthen the element supports but in the end, I think this is the answer, get the AMNPS below the heat but still have fresh air intake below the AMNPS, not sure if I have to go there, would rather go with a t-stat with remote bulb to solve the box temp issue, I think I have enough room to make what I am think work without moving the element, but even if I did move the element I would still use a mid or lower quarter temp probe for the box, the probe being in the nose of the controller is too low in the box and is subject to intake air cycling as opposed to actual box temp cycling, that is the big issue with the element with that controller, but easy enough to fix.

In you case for cold smokes or very low temp smokes, I would not force air in, I would remove your network and incorporate an offset draw instead of forcing air in, I would use the fan above the exhaust damper, draw the air out, remove the network of ducting except maybe to allow it to direct the intake air to the bottom, then you would have fresh air intake, fresh air in the bottom for the AMNPS, but not so much that it would in effect create a air current to cause the AMNPS to Flare burn or burn accelerated, I think that would serve you much better for cold smokes, that is what I am planning to do as well, and by offset draw I mean, not placing the fan directly over the exhaust damper but rather maybe putting the fan in piece of smoke pipe and just let the fan run, but sliding the tube or pipe over part of the exhaust vent, this way you would be able to control your draft or fresh air intake as it may be and would eliminate strong currents and or drafts in the box regarding the operation of the AMNPS, I am going to do the same for mine for jerky drying, but want to get the AMNPS Issues straight first, I got it burning good with virtually no issues except the added heat, not to remove it from the heat in some fashion so I can get the proper burns on higher temps, I find that increased airflow is problematic for the temps to be stable as it causes the probe on the controller to cycle the element to often, so low airflow is better, but have to get the AMNPS out of the heat, then, if I can pull that off I will be good.

After all this I think I will go stare at the box for a bit right now, you got me motivated  :)
 
 
I do think the elevation plays into this.  At near sea level, humidity may not be as much of an issue as it seems to be where I'm at.

I posted a rather long diatribe about some considerations when choosing the position of the sensor for your temperature controller in an oven or one of our smokers in another thread.  I should just link to that rather than repost it here because I worry that I'm derailing the OP's thread with some of this.  In fact, I was going to start a completely new thread with pictures and thoughts about some modifications to my particular MES, and then we could discuss a lot of these issues in that thread.

But I'll make at least one more "thread hijacking" post to this thread, and hope the OP doesn't mind.  :)

Just to keep things confusing, that other thread, and the similar discussions we're having there was here:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/249454/pellets-and-humidity/20#post_1604052

Quote:

I think that if you used the MES (at least those similar to my MES40) the way the manufacturer intended, keeping the top vent closed for smoking might well be a very good idea.

Their plan is that the heating element heats the wood chips and makes them smolder intermittently, every time the heating element kicks on.

With the vent closed, very little air would enter or exit the system.  So even though you're not heating by burning fuel, you'd probably end up with a fairly low oxygen environment.  But that's OK because you're not counting on the chips actually burning to maintain the smoke.  You're using the heating element to heat them to a high enough temperature where they decompose and emit smoke regardless.  And perhaps, you even get a high quality smoke because you aren't letting them really burn due to the low oxygen!

And at the same time, because you're not allowing air to move through the smoker, you don't need as much smoke (it's got no place to go except onto your food or other surfaces in the smoker).  And likewise, the heater doesn't need to work very hard, so it saves power.

But I still think people had problems with the chips not giving off enough smoke because the heater wasn't on enough of the time.  So the AMNPS and variations on it became popular.

But using them is really a lot different thing because you cannot keep them burning without some oxygen available.

Since I use the AMNPS, I, too, keep my top vent open.  I even add a section of duct to it to make it draw better, or resort to a fan to really get air moving through the unit!  :)

But if I was using the system the way it was designed, I might well do better with the top vent totally closed.

Here's the main thing.  I put the fan on the outside of the smoker, blowing into the intake like this:


That's the "extreme mode" where it's covering the entire inlet opening and blasting a LOT of air through the unit.  That works pretty good for getting jerky to dry!

I mounted some little neodymium magnets to the corners of the fan so I can just stick it where ever I want.  It really moves too much air, so I have to keep it way off to the edge of the opening.  But a guy on that other thread suggested getting a variable speed fan setup and posted a link to the one he uses.  It really would be great to be able to run the fan at an extremely slow speed.  But just putting a baffle in front of it would block most of it, too.  So there could be a lot of ways to get just the right amount of air flow.

I originally came up with this when I couldn't get my Jerky to dry in a reasonable time.  The temperature I was at was 150 to 160, and it just wouldn't draw much even with the top vent all the way open, so I slapped this baby on there, and the jerky dried in a couple of hours.

But I also used it the other night to make some cold-smoked butter.  I really needed something to blow the air through the unit because there was NO draft because I had the smoker turned completely off to keep the temperature low.

It actually worked too well.  I think I made the pellets burn too hot and fast, and the quality of the smoke was not good.  I'm thinking that you want the pellets burning cool and slow to get good TBS.  When they burn too well and too hot, you get more of the creosote type smoke.  Not as blue.  More to the white, nasty side of things.  So I should have throttled things back.

But I was going to start a thread about that whole process, too, so I don't want to clutter this thread with all of that, either.

Here's how I finally attached the little magnets to the corners of the fan:


I added some wire to the thing to give me a lot of slack between where I have the smoker and the nearest electrical outlet into which I plug the "wall wart" for it.

I took out the whole chip tray and it's associated metalwork from inside of my MES, and put some crude ductwork and deflectors inside to try to get things to work better.  And I think it succeeded beyond my dreams.  That's why I got the "too good" burn of the pellets this last time.

I took out all of the original metalwork and added a duct leading from the inlet past the heating element, and then aimed right at where I put the AMNPS.  There are some other heat shields and drip guards in place, too.  All of it made of disposable steam-tray covers for temporary experimentation.


The idea was to get the incoming air to blow right at the AMNPS.  But then, since I was cold smoking butter, I stuck the fan partway blowing into the intake:


Those are strong little magnets, so I just let it hang down low, partway blowing into the inlet.  Pardon the crude flashlight illumination used in the photo. 

But even when only partially blowing into the inlet, it was still a bit too much, I fear.

Not that it went bad. I thought it was doing well.  It burned about 3/4 of a row of pellets in about 3 hours.  So that seemed good.  But man, that butter is SMOKY!

But I also did this:


This might be kind of hard to see.  But I cut each cube of butter into four smaller pieces to give them more surface area, because people said they had a hard time getting any smoke penetration into butter.  I figured why not just increase the surface area to collect smoke? 
biggrin.gif


Then, as if that wasn't enough, and since it was a cold smoke (no heat applied at all), I got another computer fan, that had a bracket attached to it that I'd made to blow on some hard drives in an old computer, and set it into the rack above the butter to blow down gently onto the butter, hoping to force smoke to go down into that deep pan so it wouldn't miss out on anything.

It's a 12 Volt fan, but operating off of a 5 Volt supply, so it ran nice and slow, but it really did keep the smoke stirred up and even-looking, and forced it to flow down in and around the butter pieces.  Perfect!

But I think I could've used little or no augmentation of the air coming into the system and aimed at the AMNPS.  It looked like a nice amount of smoke, but man, baby, that's some smoky butter!

And, I could have just given it an hour, and it might have been fine.

I took the butter out of the smoker, pressed the four pieces of each stick back together, then vacuum sealed them all as individual "sticks" of butter.

They sat in the fridge for 3 days, and then I couldn't stand it and pulled one of them out and let it get up to room temp.  Then I kneaded it in the vacuum bag and really got it all mixed together really well.  Then I smooshed it all against one corner, clipped off that corner of the bag, and dispensed it out into a little container as if I was using a cake frosting piping bag.

I had my wife try some, and she actually loved it!  And she usually thinks I use too much smoke on everything.  So I don't know.

I just think that I may have gotten too high of a burning temperature on the pellets and shifted things toward thick white smoke with that creosote flavor.  But I need to let it mellow longer and try it on some different things before I pass judgement.

I guess the main point was that with a fan, you can easily have way too much of a good thing!  So I need to do a better job of blocking all but just the right amount of airflow when I use a fan.

Once again, the slow fan inside was only able to be used because this was a completely cold smoke, with the heat turned all the way off.

Interesting!   So you have your AMNPS right over the heating element.  I can see how that would keep the pellets dry, for one thing.  Induce an upward air current under the AMNPS, for another.  And being on the side with the air vent, assure better oxygen to them.

On the other hand, it might lead to much faster burning of the pellets, especially when operating at higher temperatures which require the heater to be on more of the time.

You can see above how I ducted the incoming air right toward the AMNPS even through it sits over to the left.  And that duct will be heated a bit by the heating element which may help to warm and dry the incoming air during hot smoking operations.

But a lesson I may have learned is this:

Although you don't want the pellets to go out.  You also don't really want them burning too well, either, because they make the best tasting smoke when they're on that verge of going out.

I read a Wikipedia article about smoking, and it said that if the combustion temperature of the smoking wood is too high, it will make the good tasting stuff, but then the high temperatures will break those molecules down into bad-tasting stuff.  So you really want your smoke generator to burn the wood at a low temperature.  And to that end, my fan blowing into the duct aimed right at the AMNPS may have been going too darned far!

I really would like to experiment with combustion conditions and see if I can control things so the pellets don't go out, but also produce only good-tasting smoke.

I think we may need continuous infra-red temperature measurement and a controller to operate a damper or fan to keep the pellets burning, but just not too darned well!  ;)

More of the "modify everything" philosophy at work!
That's a great fan setup, Sigmo. Like most electrical mod projects I'd have to do a lot of research into how to connect that to a wired plug. I can do basic around the house electrical repair stuff but that's it. I have installed those fans in computers but the Molex connectors were already there. Now, as it happens I'm smoking beef jerky today. My problem is keeping the temp stable. I just got a new controller from Masterbuilt but I'm still having a problem with the temp overshooting my set point during heat up by 30-40 degrees. Then I turn off the controller and open the door to lower the temp and it goes 30 degrees below the set point. For now though, things are half-OK. By that I mean the right side of the smoker is 160° but the left side is only 131°. If I bump up the set point--currently at 125°--the heating cycle will boost the right side temp too high again I'm going to have to not only turn the meat over every couple of hours but also turn the Q-MATZ around so that all the meat is exposed to the high and low temp sides. Right now I'm hoping the meat is sufficiently dried out enough even in 10 hours, which will be around 10 pm tonight. If it gets too late I'll put them in my countertop convection oven and set it to the dehydrate function.

I didn't know about how the MES heating element was designed to just keep wood chips smoldering. But I've seen how quickly wood pellets burn up when my MES is running over 180°. Thanks also for the info on what happens to the quality of smoke with chips and pellets when they burn too hot.
 
I came here about 5 years ago after spending a month in hospital with a life-threatening infection. (It was handled and I'm OK now) That experience made me think about doing things I've wanted to do while I could. Smoking meats was high on that list. My spousal unit convinced me that I was too old to manage a stick burner; so to keep the peace I went to the MES 40 after getting some really good advice from the great folks here at SMF. Ease of use was the eventual decision making point.

What I've since learned is that a Weber kettle is as easy to use and I can get the smoke ring and much better smoke flavor in meats than I ever could on the MES. Whenever I see a post like the OP in this thread, I urge the posters to re-examine their decision making process because the Weber is cheaper, more versatile and just as easy to use. The only downside is that you cannot do as much food at once as you can in the MES or other electric smokers and you can't set it and leave home for while like some people do. For me, I wouldn't leave an electric unattended for extended periods - and I'm sure others will disagree because it's a personal decision sort of thing - so that remains a non-issue for me.

Now I'm not trying to say that electrics are the wrong way to go because I've produced some good smokes on my MES as have many others here at SMF. All I'm trying to do is maybe challenge you to think through your rationale about the decision while considering other options.

I got my first Weber 22-1/2" OTG on CL for $30. You cannot get into an electric smoker at that price point without wearing a mask. I find clean-up no more onerous than with the electric. I stock up on charcoal when they run the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day specials so fuel cost is negligible.

Post here or PM me if you have questions and I'll try to give you my best advice based on what I've experienced.
I've also used my 22.5" Weber OTS for smoking baby back and St. Louis ribs. In the past I've used wood chips over the charcoal but I recently got an A-MAZE-N 6" Tube Smoker so I'm using wood pellets now. One year I smoked 3 racks of St' Louis ribs inside a rib rack on the Weber and 3 racks of baby backs in my MES; both over hickory (chips for the Weber, pellets in the AMNPS for the MES). Everybody loved both sets of ribs turned out great but the St. Louis were a bit overcooked for my tastes.  I tend to overcook BBQ since even though I'm using indirect heat I usually add too many briquettes. I've also used pellets for added wood smoke when grilling a tri-tip roast Santa Maria, CA-style. I've also said a few times in these forums that I prefer my Weber over my MES 30 for backyard cooking but it's easier to smoke and maintain roughly stable heat over a few hours in the MES. Still plan to practice making real BBQ on the Weber. It's just more fun to use than the MES.
 
Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.
 
Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.
Wow, HTH, that's a lot of work. I've seen photos of the snake method and one of my SMF buddies likes to use it. I've been using those Weber fuel holders and just pouring lit coals into them. I can try the snake method but I'll have to read your suggestions first. Which Vortex did you buy? I've seen them online but now after doing a search I'm not sure what they are. And in all my years using my Weber (since the 1980s. I've had my 2nd one for 5 years or so) I never futzed around with the vents. MES or Weber typically the vents are wide open. I'm rapidly becoming an older fart and I like set it and forget it smoking or grilling--but it's rarely that way, isn't it? I never fully looked into the science of adjusting the top and bottom vents. If you open the bottom vent to allow in more air then once the temp is where you wanted it do you remember to close it again? And when do you fool around with the top vent? It will take a lot of heat practice to get it down. But from what you're saying I should learn how to use them. To check the interior Weber kettle temp I have a Maverick Surface Laser Therm that works great.

Rick
 
Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.

You'll be surprised how quickly you pick it up, Rick. Remember that it is useful to set gauge marks on both your upper and upper vents. If you kettle doesn't have the ash shaker sweep, it might take a bit more work to mark the lower vent so that you can see them easily, but don't let that stop you. I can smoker for more than 20 hours on one snake set. In fact, I don't think I've ever used all the briqs I put into the 22-1/2; but if you don't watch it and set the vents as needed, you might burn through and cook whatever you're cooking too fast. Like I said, I shoot for 250 and adjust above 300 and below 225. The Performer has a good thermometer stuck through the handle. That's what I gauge it by. I've used an IR thermo point-and-shoot deal to check the built-in and they are more than close enough.
 
Keep up with the heat practice, Rick! You can master heat control on the Weber. Here are a couple of tips. Use the snake method around the perimeter of the grill. Don't pile up too much charcoal; I shoot for a density of about 4 briquettes overlapped enough to ensure that the fire will spread. I tried being meticulous and building a neat snake stack around the perimeter but it was a real slow, PITA process. After I bought a Vortex (which makes many things easier) I started pouring in the briqs and spreading them out by eye looking to thin 'em out if they were too dense or bunch 'em up it they seemed to widely spread. I also learned that trying to reuse any but the completely un-burnt briqs from the last cook would produce cool spots making the temp drop significantly. I get about a dozen briqs red hot and white coated and dump them at one end of the snake. I let temps rise to 300 before I start adjusting vents. I find that setting the bottom vent to about a quarter open and varying the top vent from less than that to wide open usually suffices. I shoot for 250 and it wanders up to 300+ and down to 200 sometimes, but checking every half hour or so allows me to adjust vents. If temp drops too low I usually increase the bottom vent opening to draw more air then close a bit if it goes too high. It's not set-and-forget but if this old fahrt can do it, anybody can.

I took the time to mark positions on the lower vent slide on my Performer and OTG at Closed, Quarter, Half and Open one day when I was cleaning out ashes by looking at the sweepers and how much they cover the bottom vent holes. I've done the same with my top vent by gauging how wide open one hole is. It don't need no micrometer to control air flow to a fire. The markings allow me to tell how much I've opened or closed which vents.

HTH.

You'll be surprised how quickly you pick it up, Rick. Remember that it is useful to set gauge marks on both your upper and upper vents. If you kettle doesn't have the ash shaker sweep, it might take a bit more work to mark the lower vent so that you can see them easily, but don't let that stop you. I can smoker for more than 20 hours on one snake set. In fact, I don't think I've ever used all the briqs I put into the 22-1/2; but if you don't watch it and set the vents as needed, you might burn through and cook whatever you're cooking too fast. Like I said, I shoot for 250 and adjust above 300 and below 225. The Performer has a good thermometer stuck through the handle. That's what I gauge it by. I've used an IR thermo point-and-shoot deal to check the built-in and they are more than close enough.
I gotta try that snake thing, HTH. What's the ash shaker sweep? Is that the tri-spearhead thing on the bottom of the kettle? I did a mod to my OTS to make it more like an OTG by installing the enclosed ash catcher and the hinged cooking grate. For low and slow cooking I always check the temp with the laser gun. I check both the temp where the meat is being cooked and the temp for each of the piles of briqs in the fuel holders. But again, I'm going to try the snake the next time I'm cooking a roast or ribs.

Can you upload a photo showing how you mark the vent openings? And why do you mark them? You can see the top vent. Can't you just tell my looking at the position metal lever (or whatever it's called) how open or closed the bottom vent is?
 
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Rick,

The ash shaker thing is the slide on the OTG and Performer that causes ashes to drop down in the removable ash bin. I don't think they have them on the other models but use the daisy wheels instead. It would not make any difference in any case whether you use the wheels or the ash shaker handle to gauge how much air is going thru.

I'll try to remember to get pics tomorrow. You are right though, if you look at the daisy wheel vents you can see the openings and tell how much they are opened/closed.
 
 
 

Sig,

Is that the heating element in that model on the right side under the Flex Duct ?
 

If it is I would take your duct to the bottom of the smoker about an inch up, then you would have good convection going on to all 4 corners including the AMNPS.

After I commented on your last post I took off to the barn and raised my heating element which allowed me to put the AMNPS right in the bottom of the box, pics tomorrow :), but I ran it for 3 hours at 250ish and it did not discolor the pellets or char them as it did before being above the element !!!!!
And they burned beautifully, of course more testing is in order, but I think I found the perfect setup, they made the beautiful TBS the whole time, it got dark, so I got to use the flashlight, and smoke definitely blue :)
But I was totally happy when I saw the pellets had not changed color from the heat nor charred, they looked just like they did out of the bag, it was a beautiful sight.
Now I have 20 lbs of chicken to brine and will take her for a live test drive maybe Thur, and I have to take some more pics, but will post a thread on the Mod tomorrow, not sure what to call it, maybe Rocky 13 hehehehe, I guess I will make it "MES 30 Sportsman Elite Heating Element Mod", now to try and get some sleep
 
Rick,

The ash shaker thing is the slide on the OTG and Performer that causes ashes to drop down in the removable ash bin. I don't think they have them on the other models but use the daisy wheels instead. It would not make any difference in any case whether you use the wheels or the ash shaker handle to gauge how much air is going thru.

I'll try to remember to get pics tomorrow. You are right though, if you look at the daisy wheel vents you can see the openings and tell how much they are opened/closed.
The OTS comes with the ash sweeper. On my Weber I replaced the open ash catcher with the enclosed one. I also didn't know until now the vents were called daisy wheel vents.
 
 
 
 

Sig,

Is that the heating element in that model on the right side under the Flex Duct ?
 

If it is I would take your duct to the bottom of the smoker about an inch up, then you would have good convection going on to all 4 corners including the AMNPS.

After I commented on your last post I took off to the barn and raised my heating element which allowed me to put the AMNPS right in the bottom of the box, pics tomorrow :), but I ran it for 3 hours at 250ish and it did not discolor the pellets or char them as it did before being above the element !!!!!
And they burned beautifully, of course more testing is in order, but I think I found the perfect setup, they made the beautiful TBS the whole time, it got dark, so I got to use the flashlight, and smoke definitely blue :)
But I was totally happy when I saw the pellets had not changed color from the heat nor charred, they looked just like they did out of the bag, it was a beautiful sight.
Now I have 20 lbs of chicken to brine and will take her for a live test drive maybe Thur, and I have to take some more pics, but will post a thread on the Mod tomorrow, not sure what to call it, maybe Rocky 13 hehehehe, I guess I will make it "MES 30 Sportsman Elite Heating Element Mod", now to try and get some sleep
I saw your smoker pics on the link your posted, now I have a better understanding of what the 40 look like, Thx for the pics  :)
 
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