?? Confused about CURES ??

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Thanks Bear.  That helps me understand a little better I think.  I didn't know about the 39 to 135.  I've only seen the 40 to 140 in 4.

So let's see if I have this straight.

As long as fish, meat, or poultry is brought to the 140 IT in under 4 hours, then after that it doesn't matter if it takes another 2 or 3 hours to hit the safe temp for that food type.

For instance

If a turkey had reached 140 in under 4 hours, but needed additional 2 to 3+ hours to reach 165-180 mark, it would still be considered safe because it reached the 1st mark in under 4 hours, and hit the final mark before being consumed.

Do I have it right?

And this would apply to any meat, whether cured or fresh?   Just hit the 1st mark in less than 4 hours, and then 2nd mark before consuming.

And using a cure is just for added safety and flavor in some meats.

I think I am beginning to understand.  Somebody needs to turn the light bulb on over my head now. :)
 
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Now I have another question on smoking fish.

If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.

I still need  previous post on temps answered as well.

Who says you can't teach an old dog.....  I'm gaining on it!

Pretty soon I'll be able to roll over and shake hands.  But not at the same time.  HA!
 
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Now I have another question on smoking fish.

If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.

I still need  previous post on temps answered as well.

Who says you can't teach an old dog.....  I'm gaining on it!

Pretty soon I'll be able to roll over and shake hands.  But not at the same time.  HA!
If you wait until the IT hits 145° before reducing the smoker temp, the carryover will take the fish to a higher temperature and dry it out.  You don't want to let the salmon to go over 145, but hold it there for a half hour. This may take some experience on your part.

As far as your temp questions, you are getting the idea.  Keep in mind though, there is a difference in properly cured foods and fresh.  A little research on that would be helpful.

Tom
 
wont be long and you can cold smoke it all day, if the temps are in the mid 30s let r rip ...

I am not a huge Salmon fan but I don't believe I have had it smoked.. I like just about anything smoked so I guess im gonna have to try it out...

I don't think I would cook it fast and hit it heavy at the end with smoke.. You need moisture and/or humidity for the smoke to stick to the fish. I guess if you are using water if might be ok but seems to me my meats taste better when I hit em with smoke early sometimes before I even heat the MES up.. I don't run water in my unit, imo its not needed because of airflow.. it only has about 3/4'' inlet air with about 5X that  or more on the exhaust..

in post 101- sounds like you got it
grilling_smilie.gif
 the rest is trial and error on your recipe and smoke times  etc. The more ya smoke, the better you get... at least that's the idea, sometimes I take a step in the wrong direction LOL...
 
 
Thanks Bear.  That helps me understand a little better I think.  I didn't know about the 39 to 135.  I've only seen the 40 to 140 in 4. The 40* to 140* is generally accepted on this forum. I only mentioned the other because you were making mine sound unsafe (unintentionally).

So let's see if I have this straight.

As long as fish, meat, or poultry is brought to the 140 IT in under 4 hours, then after that it doesn't matter if it takes another 2 or 3 hours to hit the safe temp for that food type. Yes.

For instance

If a turkey had reached 140 in under 4 hours, but needed additional 2 to 3+ hours to reach 165-180 mark, it would still be considered safe because it reached the 1st mark in under 4 hours, and hit the final mark before being consumed.

Do I have it right? Yes.

And this would apply to any meat, whether cured or fresh?   Just hit the 1st mark in less than 4 hours, and then 2nd mark before consuming.

And using a cure is just for added safety and flavor in some meats. No, If it is cured properly, you don't have to get it to 140 in 4 hours. Some people cold smoke (under 100*) for 2 or 3 days (Safely). I warm smoke my Bacon for 10 to 12 hours, and never take it to 140*IT

I think I am beginning to understand.  Somebody needs to turn the light bulb on over my head now. :)
Now I'll really confuse you:

If you get a whole large piece of meat (Butt, Brisket, Chucky, etc), and don't inject it or puncture it in any way, and don't stick a temp probe in it before you start. Then wait 2 or 3 hours at 200* or above smoker temp, before sterilizing & inserting your temp probe, you don't have to get it to 140* in under 4 hours. This does not include poultry or ground meat.

Bear
 
 
Now I have another question on smoking fish.

If I take fish to 145 quickly, say 1 1/2 -2 hours @ 230-240, then lower cooking temp after 145 is reached, to something like 170* range, and continue to smoke, will it still continue to absorb smoke into the flesh, and not affect the texture, other than a little more drying?  Or would the "quick cook" to temp at beginning, give more of a baked salmon texture?  Which I don't want.

I still need  previous post on temps answered as well.

Who says you can't teach an old dog.....  I'm gaining on it!

Pretty soon I'll be able to roll over and shake hands.  But not at the same time.  HA!
I wouldn't do that. It would add some smoke, but definitely do some drying.

If you use 230-240* & smoke it to 145* in 1 1/2 to 2 hours, you just made Dinner. Should be soft & flaky for eating with a fork, but you won't be able to pick it up & eat it like my "Snacking Smoked Salmon".

Bear
 
 
I wouldn't do that. It would add some smoke, but definitely do some drying.

If you use 230-240* & smoke it to 145* in 1 1/2 to 2 hours, you just made Dinner. Should be soft & flaky for eating with a fork, but you won't be able to pick it up & eat it like my "Snacking Smoked Salmon".

Bear
Oh my,  don't believe that you cannot eat my salmon like a snack, everyone around here does.  It is definitely not a dinner fillet.

Tom
 
 
Oh my,  don't believe that you cannot eat my salmon like a snack, everyone around here does.  It is definitely not a dinner fillet.

Tom
Sheeesh-----I wasn't talking about your Salmon, and I didn't think you Smoked yours for 2 hours or less at 230* or 240*.

My point was if you cook it for under 2 hours at 230-240* you can't pick it up in your fingers & bite pieces off to eat it, or put it in a baggie & into your shirt pocket when you go fishing. Are you telling me you could???  And it wouldn't fall apart?? C'mon Tom.

There are a few different ways of preparing & eating Salmon, and I'll be the first to admit that my Snacking Salmon is not for Dinner. It's not for eating with a fork from a Dinner Plate With Veggies.

Bear
 
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Sheeesh-----I wasn't talking about your Salmon, and I didn't think you Smoked yours for 2 hours or less at 230* or 240*.

My point was if you cook it for under 2 hours at 230-240* you can't pick it up in your fingers & bite pieces off to eat it, or put it in a baggie & into your shirt pocket when you go fishing. Are you telling me you could???  And it wouldn't fall apart?? C'mon Tom.

Bear
 Bear,  I smoke mine at 200° for aprox. 1.5 hours to an IT of 145°.

Shirt pocket?  It will hold even in a saddle bag.  Keep in mind that I use a stronger cure than you, it does make a difference in the end product.

Tom
 
 
 Bear,  I smoke mine at 200° for aprox. 1.5 hours to an IT of 145°.

Shirt pocket?  It will hold even in a saddle bag.  Keep in mind that I use a stronger cure than you, it does make a difference in the end product.

Tom
That's a whole different ballgame. Mine are smoked. Yours are cured & preserved.
 
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Well, guys.... I do believe you've done it! 

Somehow in the last couple of pages, somebody worded it in such a way, that things started clicking for me.  I've even re read the entire thread now, and what I couldn't understand before, now makes sense to me.  Hell, I may even look at some charts & graphs again.  LOL

I didn't know about not putting probe in while still raw.  Never thought about it I guess.  So from now on probe stays in bag until after food has cooked awhile.

Thanks for staying with me on this subject guys.  I sure do appreciate your patience.

Thank you all so much.  Give yourself a pat on the back and have a cold one on me.
Beer.gif
 
Mr T.  Your ratios of TQ, or salt/sugar/water was spot on! 

Can't wait to try some of Bear and Dave's recipes.  But I think that will have to wait for next season, if my sone will give me some.  LOL

Really surprised me.  LOL

Took a couple small tastes while still warn, and licked my lips for four hours afterwards!  Some of that may have been the real maple syrup too.  I used all maple except for one hunk of apple wood, to smoke it.  But for the life of me, I can't understand how you get to 140-145 IT within 2 hours @ 200*.  Here is how mine went.  See this new thread.
 
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Glad you enjoyed. Now you have learned the importance of balancing other ingredients while using the proper amount of salt.  Will check out your thread.

Tom
 
This thread is still about cures.   Right?    So....... Here we go again!

I got side tracked with the fish, because that was what I was doing at the time.

Cure #1 amounts. OK, I've got the 1 tsp. for 5 lbs meat ratio, sliced or ground, for non-brined meat.

Then, I've got Pops brine of 1 TBsp per gal for wet brining.

But... what if I am doing smaller amounts of meat with just a marinade? Like for 2.5 - 3 lb of sliced jerky meat.  How do I figure out amt of cure?

Should I brine it first in Pops brine for 12-24 hours, "then" put in marinade for flavor for a few hours,

or... should I weigh meat, marinating seasonings & the small amounts of liquid together,

and then follow the 1 tsp to 5 lb rule for total weight of both liquid and meat/seasonings?

I hope I asked this right and it makes sense to you.
 
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... should I weigh meat, marinating seasonings & the small amounts of liquid together,

and then follow the 1 tsp to 5 lb rule for total weight of both liquid and meat/seasonings?



Frank, morning..... That is an acceptable method for curing thin cuts of meat like jerky.... It's called an "equilibrium" brine..... As small of an amount of liquid, that can be used effectively, is preferred... example: 1 cup of liquid with all the ingredients added, per pound of meat.. (if that cup of liquid will wet all the surfaces....) ... Then massage the bag or stir the meat, in the liquid, a couple times per day, for 1-2 days.... rinse lightly and dry on paper towels and process normally.....

Hope I explained that OK...... Dave
 
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Thanks Dave.

Let me double check what I've done.  I've already done it, so I can't change that,

but just want to double check my safety margins, before I, or anyone eats any of the jerky.

This was a test batch.  About 2.4 lb of meat, sliced 3/8" X 3/4".  I added my1/3 c. soy, 1/4 c. w-sauce, spices, sugar, water and 1/2 tsp. cure #1.

Mixed well, and combined with meat.  Total weight of meat and liquid was then 4.1 lb.

This should make my cure at a little more than 1/2 the maximum, but still over the minimum.  Not sure how much over. 

But I think it falls within the max and min range.  Right or wrong?  If it's too much cure, then I'll toss it, and take my beating from my sweetie.  LOL

If it is just a little too light on cure, then I'll still go ahead with it.

____________________________________________________

I won't be able to use smoker as I had planned to. Weather, and two thanksgiving dinners on wed and Thur.

My options are:

I can dry it tomorrow after about 17-18 hours in cure/marinade, or wait until 3-4 days have passed.

I can dry it in oven between 160*-180*, or use my Excalibur dehydrator.  Never done jerky in dehydrator before, always oven.

But now that we've upgraded the stove, I'm stuck with that "not below 170* setting"  thing and no pilot light.  Hate that!

I have reset, calibrated, or whatever, the stove to -35* from factory setting.  But it still will only go to 160* before lighting again, and reaches 180 just after it shuts off.  This is checked with Maverick at med level grate.   It's going to take a lot of baby sitting.  More than the smoker I think.  LOL

I may have to haul out my little computer fan thingy again, and set it outside the cracked oven door.

_______________________________________

EVERYONES thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
 
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Frank, morning..... Let's figure it out...... 1 tsp. / 5#'s is approx. 156 Ppm cure....
soooooo, if everything was close to OK, then 1/2 tsp / 2.4 #'s = 162.5 Ppm ... (2.5/2.4x156) then adding the other stuff to total 4.1 #'s...
figures... 2.5/4.1x156 = 95 Ppm.... theoretically.....
OK, now for the disclaimer.... Since, if I remember correctly, 100 Ppm cure #1 should be the minimum ingoing allowed for commercial curing etc..... Since you are not commercial, and you will not be smoking in a reduced oxygen atmosphere, which would be a situation where botulism would likely form, and you will be drying at above 160 ish......
You are well within all guidelines I can think of... Bacteria will be done in.... No botulism forming situations...

I'd eat it..... Dave
 
You lost me again in calculations.  It's easy to do. 

I "DID" pass basic algebra, in HS,

but only with a D-minus, and that was only because teacher didn't want me in her class another year.  LOL   TRUE!!

So,, what is the "2.5" you are using in your calculation of (2.5/2.4x156)?
 
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To Everyone.  Please help with good curing info.

I've been reading via Google, and in these forums too, about cures.  Every time I think I have a handle on it, it seems to changes.

I understand the different terms between "True" Dry Cures,  Dry Brine, and Wet Brine,

I guess the amounts of cure is much higher for true dry cures, and may use nitrates as well and take weeks to months/years to mature. 

Not for me right now.  Too new, no facilities and no patience for months of curing time.

So for now, I only need to learn short/semi short cures, using cure #1.  AKA Dry brining and wet brining/injecting.

1.  Do dry brines use a different a different ratio of cure to meat, than wet and/or injection type brining?  If so, how do I calculate each, Or Better Yet, where do I find an online calculator for each.

2.  Just what is an  "equilibrium" brine?   And how is it different from a wet brine (such as Pops)

3.  If using a brine like Pop's,, can I soak meat first for recommend time without salt and sugar (just water and cure#1)   and then make a seasoning marinade for a day or two?   Will the marinade still be absorbed, or would the just water and cure have stopped that?

4.  Will "just cure #1 and water" still be absorbed without using salt?    Or is salt needed to make that absorbing happen?
 
Morning Frank..... well I apologize for the long winded explanation.... sometimes I get lost in explaining stuff, trying to be thorough... Just the way I am.... BORING.... You can skip all the BS and go the the #### line at the bottom ..... that's where my summation is....

If 1 tsp cures 5#'s at 156 Ppm then 1/2 tsp cures 2.5 #'s at 156 Ppm.......
since you (were planning to) cured 2.4 #'s with 1/2 tsp., 2.5# / 2.4# = 1.04 times the recommended amount of cure.... X the 156 Ppm expected at the recommended weight... your batch would have been 162.5 Ppm.....

Then you added water etc. bringing the new total weight up to 4.1 #'s
And you left the cure amount at 1/2 tsp......

If I/2 tsp. makes 156 Ppm nitrite using 2.5 #'s water, meat, sugar spices etc.....

4.1 #'s of product using 1/2 tsp. cure #1.... we need to figure out what that Ppm nitrite is...

We are diluting the original cure amount by 2.5# / 4.1#.= 0.61.... or 61% so.... 0.61 x 156 Ppm = 95 Ppm nitrite in the 4.1# mix...

Another way to look at it..... 4.1# / 2.5# = 1.64.... or we used 164% of the recommended amount for the cure#1 we originally had... represented by these numbers... 156 Ppm / 1.64 = 95 ppm

This krap can get soooooooooo confusing..... fortunately math came very easy for me..... Heck, I flunked ART class .... now tell me.... how can you flunk ART.... I got a 5 hour F in 1967..... if you are near my age, you darn well know what a 5 hour F can do in college.....
I got this letter..... Dave..... Head straight to the ARMY physical induction center in Seattle.... Do not pass GO.... Do Not collect $200.......

Soooooo, you know how important it was, to me, to pass ART.... I still got an F......

One thing that makes all this cure krap easier, is to convert everything to metric..... grams etc.... it may take a day or two to get the basics but after that........ easy peasy....

Metric explanation....

You start with 4.1 #'s of something.... you want it to be 156 Ppm nitrite... 4.1 # x 454 grams/# = 1861 grams of something...
1861 x .000156 = 0.29 grams of nitrite

Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite..... 0.29 / .0625 = 4.6 grams of cure #1 to equal the correct amount of cure #1.... That works out to 1.12 grams of cure #1 per pound of stuff....

Since brined/massaged meats etc. , according to the USDA, the acceptable levels for INGOING nitrite is between 100-200 Ppm nitrite..... (if you read between the lines) ...... 1 gram of cure #1 per pound of meat, falls perfectly between these numbers and you can quit calculating now...
###########################################
Using 1 gram of cure #1, per pound of something, approximately equals 137 Ppm nitrite.... Perfect for most stuff we do here... It's acceptable... healthy... safe.... and ends one heck of a lot of frustration.... a darn site better than measuring spoons....

So.... get a grams scale... one that reads to 0.1 or better 0.01 grams and get some calibration weights.... below are examples of scales and calibration weights available also.... there are others......

For safety reasons, when curing food, a good scale or two is recommended....


 
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