Tenderquick to pink salt conversion

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You still provide no proof regarding the amount of Salt in TenderQuick, I'm not trying to be a Jerk but something this critical needs support...And...You keep repeating, " ....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.  

When are you going to Post these Rules and Safety Precautions...The random reader has to know before they attempt a move like substituting Cures which you seem to think is no big deal ...JJ
 
You still provide no proof regarding the amount of Salt in TenderQuick, I'm not trying to be a Jerk but something this critical needs support...And...You keep repeating, " ....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.  



When are you going to Post these Rules and Safety Precautions...The random reader has to know before they attempt a move like substituting Cures which you seem to think is no big deal ...JJ

C'mon, this is getting out of hand.

I don't need to prove how much salt is in Tender Quick for it to be used safely. (When the directions and rules are followed.)

I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense!

I seem to think that substituting cures is no big deal?

:huh:

Why would you say that I think it's not a big deal when I've said time and time again that rules and directions must be followed????

For the life of me, I don't see why "please follow directions/rules" is such a difficult concept to grasp!!!

I've done nothing but advocate following the rules/directions, there should be no argument!
 
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 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially LESS salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.
Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.
For whats it's worth
 


9.875oz=276gm per 25 pounds or 11gm per pound


I use 8.5 per pound  for my favorite bacon.

Ol' Rytek is usin' 13.46 grams of salt per pound, or more, if needed!

Different strokes for different folks!

:sausage:
 
Once again what are these DIRECTIONS and RULES you keep talking about!?! Look I learned a long time ago from members like AlBlancher and fpnmf...If you can't prove it don't say it!...I made the reference that TQ and Table salt weighed about the same,I miss read the chart, I was called on it by you and said so...Now you said...

Tender Quick is 79% salt.
1 level tablespoon of Tender Quick weighs 1/2 an ounce.
25 level tablespoons of Tender Quick for 25 lbs. of bacon would be 12.5 ounces of Tender Quick.
12.5 ounces X .79= 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially LESS salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.

Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.

These are your words, if they are a fact, back it up...

You are also saying..." I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense! "

Really I would to like see where it says you can substitute TQ for Cure #1 and gives information about Salt and Sugar conversions as well... You can't substitute if you don't know these amounts...JJ
 
 
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Here you go...Will you please point out where they give the Conversion...Morton says follow the Recipe...Does that mean a recipe with TQ or any recipe?...JJ

images
 
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OK I think I might be able to  help here. 

The OP is asking for a conversion between TQ and cure#1

I stand by my original post. That to my knowledge there is no direct conversion between the two. (may not be my exact words but darn close)

Sausageboy you state you can convert between TQ and cure#1 as long as the directions/rules are followed. The directions/rules are right on the bag of TQ. I went and dug out my bag of TQ from the back of the cupboard. I looked the bag over carefully. NO where on the bag did I find where it said you could convert between the two cures. It only stated how to use TQ as a cure. I am posting the following 5 pics of the bag. 

                                          Front of Bag                                                                                                                      Back of Bag and Directions

52b352eb_front.jpg
                 
bb12905c_back.jpg


                          Side with Nutrition Facts and Ingredients I couldn't get a clear pic of both in 1 pic so I took 2

5b6f8b48_side2b.jpg
          
93a80a0e_side2.jpg


                                     Other side of bag with curing guide info

6e1cf4fe_side1.jpg


Now with all that said following the directions on the bag, NO where did it mention sausage or ground meats which the OP is making and using. This peaked my curiosity so I went to Morton's web site to find the answer. I clicked the drop down menu and selected method, I then checked the box for curing. This brought up 6 recipes 3 sausage and 3 whole meats. I reviewed all 3 sausages and the amount of TQ per pound in all 3 was 1 1/2 tsp not 1 TBSP. by using the 1 TBSP you are adding 2x as much cure. Early on in this thread the OP decided to use 1 TBSP of TQ in his sausage, and you stated I hope you left out the other salt in the recipe. when in fact you should have told him that was too much he needed 1 1/2 tsp. Had I know all this when the OP said that I would have informed him, that was too much. The 1 TBSP is for whole meats not ground. Here is a link to the Morton's site with the recipes.Morton Salt | Recipes
 
Hey sprky,

You need to read this thread closer.
Nowhere did i say that TQ and Cure#1 are directly interchangeable!!!!!! Nowhere!!!
Nowhere did i say to use 1 tablespoon of TQ per pound of ground meat!!!! Nowhere!!! TQ is usually used at 1/2 a tablespoon per pound of ground meat!
If your not comfortable with the information from the Morton TQ bag, which does not mention ground meats, only use the directions for whole cuts that are on the bag, or further educate yourself, otherwise, please don't be converting!!!! It's common sense!!!

See the following thread.....

Getting to know Morton Tender Quick......
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/117802/getting-to-know-morton-tender-quick

Folks, if you have a problem grasping the concept of a multi-purpose cure, please follow the recipe EXACTLY as directed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Hey sprky,
You need to read this thread closer.   I have reread this post several times as well as had others read it.
Nowhere did i say that TQ and Cure#1 are directly interchangeable!!!!!! Nowhere!!!   Maybe not in those exact words but you have darn sure been implying it threw-out this thread. I am not the only one that sees it this way.
Nowhere did i say to use 1 tablespoon of TQ per pound of ground meat!!!! Nowhere!!! TQ is usually used at 1/2 a tablespoon per pound of ground meat!  True not in those words. But when the OP said he was going to use 1 TBSP you replied "I hope you left out the salt in the recipe", with no mention of the 1 1/2 tsp amount. Therefor you implied to the OP he was correct in his amount. 
If your not comfortable with the information from the Morton TQ bag, which does not mention ground meats, only use the directions for whole cuts that are on the bag, or further educate yourself, otherwise, please don't be converting!!!! It's common sense!!!    I am totally comfortable with TQ and it's uses. Do I know all there is to know about curing NO, there is always room to educate yourself, and I do. I don't convert I use the cure that is called for in the recipe in the amounts called for, whether it be TQ or cure #1. That is the best common sense. 
 
 
Time out!

Alright I had to look at the original post again, Phogi was making confit, chunks of pork swimming in pork fat warmed at a very low temp in the oven for a long time, then stored in the frig for months. To me this is the recipe that I might want TQ used. With the low temp (probably below 140°)and long storage time I think the nitrate that it offers would be a plus.

 The original question was how much TQ would equal ½ tsp of pink salt.

I think the whole point of this discussion is that IF you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to safely cure your product.

Let's toss in a few numbers,

½ tsp of pink salt equals 0.1875 gms of nitrite. which mixed with a pound of meat give you 415ppm.

1Tbl of TQ equals .14 gms of nitrite . This gives you 308ppm in the same pound of meat.

Both of the above amounts are safe and well below the 625ppm maximum allowed by the USDA, and that's as close as you'll get to equal using spoon measurements. If you want it exactly the same, use scales to measure it out

TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, BUT it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate

#1 is salt and nitrite

You can use a ½ Tbl of TQ safely in sausage but it alone will probably have enough salt and you'll need to adjust the salt that might be in the recipe to you taste. And if you're worried about using to much TQ, don't. To much TQ will be so salty you won't be able to eat it.

In the end, if ya know what you're doing you can replace one for the other, but on the board here I think it's not a good idea to suggest it. I find a lot of people don't really research anything but just copy what they read and go for it...I was one of them once myself. '

I hope this is some help to others, and remember curing meats is as much of a science as it is a hobby.
 
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Dan

With all due respect I don't understand how you can measure nitrite in each cure and use that as the amount of available nitrite when TQ has Nitrate and we do not know how the conversion rate of nitrates to nitrite. Salt is personal taste, the amount of nitrite is important.        Why not substitute Cure 2 if we are going to believe the nitrates are not important?

I feel like a man with a knife going to a gun fight posting to this thread but I really want to understand how we can ignore the nitrates in TQ?

As a matter of fact most confit recipes I am familiar with uses the duck fat seal to preserve the meat, no cure required.
 
Dan, I trust you and Nepas...Thanks for your post you very nicely said Both SausageBoy and I are right in our own way...JJ

"I think the whole point of this discussion is that IF you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to safely cure your product."...Sausage Boys Point...

"TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, BUT it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate."...Chef JimmyJs Point...
 
Time out!



Alright I had to look at the original post again, Phogi was making confit, chunks of pork swimming in pork fat warmed at a very low temp in the oven for a long time, then stored in the frig for months. To me this is the recipe that I might want TQ used. With the low temp (probably below 140°)and long storage time I think the nitrate that it offers would be a plus.



 The original question was how much TQ would equal ½ tsp of pink salt.



I think the whole point of this discussion is that IF you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to safely cure your product.



Let's toss in a few numbers,


½ tsp of pink salt equals 0.1875 gms of nitrite. which mixed with a pound of meat give you 415ppm.


1Tbl of TQ equals .14 gms of nitrite . This gives you 308ppm in the same pound of meat.


Both of the above amounts are safe and well below the 625ppm maximum allowed by the USDA, and that's as close as you'll get to equal using spoon measurements. If you want it exactly the same, use scales to measure it out



TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, BUT it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.


TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate


#1 is salt and nitrite



You can use a ½ Tbl of TQ safely in sausage but it alone will probably have enough salt and you'll need to adjust the salt that might be in the recipe to you taste. And if you're worried about using to much TQ, don't. To much TQ will be so salty you won't be able to eat it.




In the end, if ya know what you're doing you can replace one for the other, but on the board here I think it's not a good idea to suggest it. I find a lot of people don't really research anything but just copy what they read and go for it...I was one of them once myself. '




I hope this is some help to others, and remember curing meats is as much of a science as it is a hobby.

Great post Dan. Perhaps one of the best I have seen contrasting TQ and cure #1.
 
Dan

With all due respect I don't understand how you can measure nitrite in each cure and use that as the amount of available nitrite when TQ has Nitrate and we do not know how the conversion rate of nitrates to nitrite.

I'll be the first to tell ya, I don't really know what happens to the nitrate in the TQ. But we're talking about a quick cure and I really don't think the nitrates even start to come into play. So unless we're curing the product for over 40 days or so I think the nitrates are not an issue. therefor I look at the ingoing amount of nitrite as the prime factor.

Now if someone could tell me what happens to the nitrate during the heating process, I might change my view. But the amount of nitrate in TQ that you'd use in a pound of  meat is less then you'd find in a pound of potato's so for now I'm comfortable with it being there.

Salt is personal taste, the amount of nitrite is important.        Why not substitute Cure 2 if we are going to believe the nitrates are not important?

Again I don't think it falls into play in a short term cure but only after the available nitrites have run out and the NO3 starts to convert to NO2

Since this thread started I've been looking for info on what happens to the residual nitrate in a cure, but have yet to find any info.

I feel like a man with a knife going to a gun fight posting to this thread but I really want to understand how we can ignore the nitrates in TQ?

LOL I'm the guy right behind ya.

Valid question Al, that I really can't answer. Cure #2 has half the nitrate as TQ so why dont we use it, or better yet how is TQ allowed to be sold if it's unsafe?

As a matter of fact most confit recipes I am familiar with uses the duck fat seal to preserve the meat, no cure required.


I live for good discussions about things like this, it makes all of us better curers. I'm by far not an expert and I learn something everyday, so if anyone can add to this or find fault in what I posted please do, these are my opinions base on what I know, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much.
 
Does someone actually have access to the amount of nitrate in TQ?  If the amount of nitrate is so small as to be insignificant then it is just Cure 1 with additional salt?  This entire conversation is about how much salt to add or subtract from a recipe?

Why is TQ allowed to be on the market?  Great question, but handguns, alcohol and cigs are still on the market and no one questions their safety?  Maybe it's just popular, made by a large company, with a lot of fans and the health risks of residual nitrates in low temperature recipes still unproven to be a major if not minor health risk that the government doesn't see the need to spend the money and resources to pull it off the market? 

Guys,  I bought a bag of TQ when Boykjo came to SELA so he could make sausage.  Next SELA I will probably give away a full bag of TQ less 6 Tablespoons as a door prize unless Joe is going to make sausage again.  BTW  I also have a can of Kosher salt with just a couple of Ts missing 
icon_lol.gif


It would be real nice to have an accurate, published list of ingredients with their proportions for TQ. 

Once we have that information then the argument becomes how does the  nitrate affect the available amount of nitrite.  Over the years I read how to handle this question, I believe it was in Marianski, but I do not recall.  If I can find it I'll scan the page, give credit to the author and post

How does the residual nitrate affect the safety of the food

Can something cause the immediate conversion of nitrates to nitrites pushing the concentration of nitrites outside of safe curing limits?
 
Al, the amount of nitrate is 0.5% by volume so that  1/2 (14gm)ounce per pound contains 0.07gm or 154ppm legally we can use 2187ppm's so we're looking at about 7% of the max
 
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Thank you Dan

So the amount of nitrate in TQ is insignificant?


LOL I can't answer that. sure seems it to me but my bag of D.Q.#2 is 3.63% nitrate that works out to 88ppm or 4% of the max.

Like I've said I'm not very familiar with cure #2

If allowable is 2187ppm why is only a small fraction used in either?
 
OK so that is what  1 Tablespoon DQ 2 per lb.  Sorry had a couple glasses of wine last night and don't feel like doing the math myself,  lazy I guess.
 
My #2 is used at a rate of 4 oz per 100 pounds. I prefer gram measures so that's 1.1gram per pound (454grams)

Thats the same rate as #1

FYI this #2 also has less nitrite then #1 at 5.67%

LOL, I ain't going to get squat done this morning
 
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