Tenderquick to pink salt conversion

Discussion in 'Curing' started by phogi, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    You still provide no proof regarding the amount of Salt in TenderQuick, I'm not trying to be a Jerk but something this critical needs support...And...You keep repeating, " ....done safely when directions, rules and reasonable safety precautions are followed.  

    When are you going to Post these Rules and Safety Precautions...The random reader has to know before they attempt a move like substituting Cures which you seem to think is no big deal ...JJ
     
  2. C'mon, this is getting out of hand.

    I don't need to prove how much salt is in Tender Quick for it to be used safely. (When the directions and rules are followed.)

    I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense!

    I seem to think that substituting cures is no big deal?

    :huh:

    Why would you say that I think it's not a big deal when I've said time and time again that rules and directions must be followed????

    For the life of me, I don't see why "please follow directions/rules" is such a difficult concept to grasp!!!

    I've done nothing but advocate following the rules/directions, there should be no argument!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  3. Ol' Rytek is usin' 13.46 grams of salt per pound, or more, if needed!

    Different strokes for different folks!

    :sausage:
     
  4. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Once again what are these DIRECTIONS and RULES you keep talking about!?! Look I learned a long time ago from members like AlBlancher and fpnmf...If you can't prove it don't say it!...I made the reference that TQ and Table salt weighed about the same,I miss read the chart, I was called on it by you and said so...Now you said...

    Tender Quick is 79% salt.
    1 level tablespoon of Tender Quick weighs 1/2 an ounce.
    25 level tablespoons of Tender Quick for 25 lbs. of bacon would be 12.5 ounces of Tender Quick.
    12.5 ounces X .79= 9.875 ounces of salt for 25 lbs. of bacon, which is substantially LESS salt than what's called for in that recipe, but still effective.

    Again, if you follow the proper directions and rules, many recipes can easily and safely be converted.

    These are your words, if they are a fact, back it up...

    You are also saying..." I shouldn't have to post the directions/rules, if someone has a bag of Tender Quick, the directions/rules are right on the bag. That's common sense! "

    Really I would to like see where it says you can substitute TQ for Cure #1 and gives information about Salt and Sugar conversions as well... You can't substitute if you don't know these amounts...JJ
     
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  5. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Here you go...Will you please point out where they give the Conversion...Morton says follow the Recipe...Does that mean a recipe with TQ or any recipe?...JJ

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  6. sprky

    sprky Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    OK I think I might be able to  help here. 

    The OP is asking for a conversion between TQ and cure#1

    I stand by my original post. That to my knowledge there is no direct conversion between the two. (may not be my exact words but darn close)

    Sausageboy you state you can convert between TQ and cure#1 as long as the directions/rules are followed. The directions/rules are right on the bag of TQ. I went and dug out my bag of TQ from the back of the cupboard. I looked the bag over carefully. NO where on the bag did I find where it said you could convert between the two cures. It only stated how to use TQ as a cure. I am posting the following 5 pics of the bag. 

                                              Front of Bag                                                                                                                      Back of Bag and Directions

    [​IMG]                  [​IMG]

                              Side with Nutrition Facts and Ingredients I couldn't get a clear pic of both in 1 pic so I took 2

    [​IMG]           [​IMG]

                                         Other side of bag with curing guide info

    [​IMG]

    Now with all that said following the directions on the bag, NO where did it mention sausage or ground meats which the OP is making and using. This peaked my curiosity so I went to Morton's web site to find the answer. I clicked the drop down menu and selected method, I then checked the box for curing. This brought up 6 recipes 3 sausage and 3 whole meats. I reviewed all 3 sausages and the amount of TQ per pound in all 3 was 1 1/2 tsp not 1 TBSP. by using the 1 TBSP you are adding 2x as much cure. Early on in this thread the OP decided to use 1 TBSP of TQ in his sausage, and you stated I hope you left out the other salt in the recipe. when in fact you should have told him that was too much he needed 1 1/2 tsp. Had I know all this when the OP said that I would have informed him, that was too much. The 1 TBSP is for whole meats not ground. Here is a link to the Morton's site with the recipes.Morton Salt | Recipes
     
  7. scrappynadds

    scrappynadds Smoking Fanatic

    Just want to say I love the point, counter point........Very passionate and informing discussion, I think SMF needed it....thanx
     
  8. Hey sprky,

    You need to read this thread closer.
    Nowhere did i say that TQ and Cure#1 are directly interchangeable!!!!!! Nowhere!!!
    Nowhere did i say to use 1 tablespoon of TQ per pound of ground meat!!!! Nowhere!!! TQ is usually used at 1/2 a tablespoon per pound of ground meat!
    If your not comfortable with the information from the Morton TQ bag, which does not mention ground meats, only use the directions for whole cuts that are on the bag, or further educate yourself, otherwise, please don't be converting!!!! It's common sense!!!

    See the following thread.....

    Getting to know Morton Tender Quick......
    http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/117802/getting-to-know-morton-tender-quick

    Folks, if you have a problem grasping the concept of a multi-purpose cure, please follow the recipe EXACTLY as directed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  9. sprky

    sprky Master of the Pit OTBS Member

     
  10. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Time out!

    Alright I had to look at the original post again, Phogi was making confit, chunks of pork swimming in pork fat warmed at a very low temp in the oven for a long time, then stored in the frig for months. To me this is the recipe that I might want TQ used. With the low temp (probably below 140°)and long storage time I think the nitrate that it offers would be a plus.

     The original question was how much TQ would equal ½ tsp of pink salt.

    I think the whole point of this discussion is that IF you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to safely cure your product.

    Let's toss in a few numbers,

    ½ tsp of pink salt equals 0.1875 gms of nitrite. which mixed with a pound of meat give you 415ppm.

    1Tbl of TQ equals .14 gms of nitrite . This gives you 308ppm in the same pound of meat.

    Both of the above amounts are safe and well below the 625ppm maximum allowed by the USDA, and that's as close as you'll get to equal using spoon measurements. If you want it exactly the same, use scales to measure it out

    TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, BUT it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

    TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate

    #1 is salt and nitrite

    You can use a ½ Tbl of TQ safely in sausage but it alone will probably have enough salt and you'll need to adjust the salt that might be in the recipe to you taste. And if you're worried about using to much TQ, don't. To much TQ will be so salty you won't be able to eat it.

    In the end, if ya know what you're doing you can replace one for the other, but on the board here I think it's not a good idea to suggest it. I find a lot of people don't really research anything but just copy what they read and go for it...I was one of them once myself. '

    I hope this is some help to others, and remember curing meats is as much of a science as it is a hobby.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  11. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Dan

    With all due respect I don't understand how you can measure nitrite in each cure and use that as the amount of available nitrite when TQ has Nitrate and we do not know how the conversion rate of nitrates to nitrite. Salt is personal taste, the amount of nitrite is important.        Why not substitute Cure 2 if we are going to believe the nitrates are not important?

    I feel like a man with a knife going to a gun fight posting to this thread but I really want to understand how we can ignore the nitrates in TQ?

    As a matter of fact most confit recipes I am familiar with uses the duck fat seal to preserve the meat, no cure required.
     
  12. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Dan, I trust you and Nepas...Thanks for your post you very nicely said Both SausageBoy and I are right in our own way...JJ

    "I think the whole point of this discussion is that IF you know your cures and you know there composition, you can replace one for the other to safely cure your product."...Sausage Boys Point...

    "TQ can be used to replace #1 as a curing agent, BUT it's not a direct replacement, you need to know what's in each and what you want for an end product.

    TQ is salt, sugar, nitrite and nitrate."...Chef JimmyJs Point...
     
  13. solaryellow

    solaryellow Limited Mod Group Lead

    Great post Dan. Perhaps one of the best I have seen contrasting TQ and cure #1.
     
  14. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member


    I live for good discussions about things like this, it makes all of us better curers. I'm by far not an expert and I learn something everyday, so if anyone can add to this or find fault in what I posted please do, these are my opinions base on what I know, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much.
     
  15. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Does someone actually have access to the amount of nitrate in TQ?  If the amount of nitrate is so small as to be insignificant then it is just Cure 1 with additional salt?  This entire conversation is about how much salt to add or subtract from a recipe?

    Why is TQ allowed to be on the market?  Great question, but handguns, alcohol and cigs are still on the market and no one questions their safety?  Maybe it's just popular, made by a large company, with a lot of fans and the health risks of residual nitrates in low temperature recipes still unproven to be a major if not minor health risk that the government doesn't see the need to spend the money and resources to pull it off the market? 

    Guys,  I bought a bag of TQ when Boykjo came to SELA so he could make sausage.  Next SELA I will probably give away a full bag of TQ less 6 Tablespoons as a door prize unless Joe is going to make sausage again.  BTW  I also have a can of Kosher salt with just a couple of Ts missing  [​IMG]

    It would be real nice to have an accurate, published list of ingredients with their proportions for TQ. 

    Once we have that information then the argument becomes how does the  nitrate affect the available amount of nitrite.  Over the years I read how to handle this question, I believe it was in Marianski, but I do not recall.  If I can find it I'll scan the page, give credit to the author and post

    How does the residual nitrate affect the safety of the food

    Can something cause the immediate conversion of nitrates to nitrites pushing the concentration of nitrites outside of safe curing limits?
     
  16. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Al, the amount of nitrate is 0.5% by volume so that  1/2 (14gm)ounce per pound contains 0.07gm or 154ppm legally we can use 2187ppm's so we're looking at about 7% of the max
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  17. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Thank you Dan

    So the amount of nitrate in TQ is insignificant?
     
  18. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member


    LOL I can't answer that. sure seems it to me but my bag of D.Q.#2 is 3.63% nitrate that works out to 88ppm or 4% of the max.

    Like I've said I'm not very familiar with cure #2

    If allowable is 2187ppm why is only a small fraction used in either?
     
  19. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    OK so that is what  1 Tablespoon DQ 2 per lb.  Sorry had a couple glasses of wine last night and don't feel like doing the math myself,  lazy I guess.
     
  20. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    My #2 is used at a rate of 4 oz per 100 pounds. I prefer gram measures so that's 1.1gram per pound (454grams)

    Thats the same rate as #1

    FYI this #2 also has less nitrite then #1 at 5.67%

    LOL, I ain't going to get squat done this morning
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012

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