PID controller hook up help please

Discussion in 'Fridge/Freezer Builds' started by ryans01z28, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    I'm trying to hook up my pid and I'm having a little trouble. Here's what I've got So far two power wires coming into the pid #1&#2 on pid. #3&4 on pid coming out and going to 3&4 on ssr and then 1&2 on ssr to my female end of power cord to plug smoker element in. I hae the temp probe connected to the pid at pin 7&8 but its not reading right. It's showing 70* when I put it in ice water and I've tried switching the wire around on the probe and the numbers on the pid still raise its at 74.5* now sitting in the ice water and I switched the wires around with no change. What do I have hooked up wrong?

     Thanks 
     
  2. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

  3. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    From the model info in the photo, you have a MYPIN TA04-SNR unit with the following configuration:
    • TA = Model TA
    • 0 = 85-265v AC/DC power requirement
    • 4 = Size "4" housing
    • - or blank = TC/RTD types are selectable from K J E S T B R Pt100 CU50
    • S = Output #1 is SSR control signal of
    • N = No output #2
    • R = Alarm output is relay (switched only)
    First question is what type of temperature probe do you have?  The MYPIN TA4 uses a digital configuration menu where the sensor type of the probe must be set correctly along with other parameters.  Examples of the probe types are K type, J type, etc....  The factory setting for a TA4 is "K" type and if you have another type of probe you need to change this to match what you have in the digital setup menu.  Another issue might be the range of the probe you have.  If it is a very high temp probe it may not read properly in ice water.  So we need a little more info on what you have.

    Double check the probe wiring also.  Most probes are polarity sensitive but should be marked or color coded in their wiring.

    There is a temperature offset value setting for the TA4 to correct an erroneous reading of up to 100*.   It's the PVF setting in the configuration menu.  If your setup for sensor type is correct, try changing the offset value to correct the reading.  For example if the 70* reading is with the probe polarity wired correctly and reading ice water temps, then you need a -38 offset value to be entered into the configuration menu for PVF (70-38=32).  Then test in boiling water and at a few other temps against a known good thermometer such as a Thermapen if you have one.

    Here is a link to the English version of the Chinese TA4 manual

    http://www.sanyoutech.com/UploadProductPic/200991715182749860.pdf

    I found a link to a TA4 setup guide someone else has made on the web.  It seems to be considerably better written than the paper manual from China I found. It's for a complete control module (plug and play), but that unit uses the TA4 as the PID so the steps and configuration process should be the same. Here is the link.  This is on a FTP server.

    ftp://65.74.99.15/Public/JConn Inv/PID Documents/PIDInstructionManual.pdf

    ***** NOTE *****

    I see a major issue with your SSR wiring in photo #2.  As is, it will not be powering anything.



    I looks like you have the PID output to the SSR wired correctly, as in photo #2 the process value (desired temp) is set to 357* and the current temp is showing 26.3* and the output #1 LED is lit showing their is triggering output to the SSR.  I take it you have it set for degrees C instead of F in the configuration currently (26.3* C is 79.34* F so that fits in the range with what you posted about the probe offset issue if you just took it out of the ice water recently)?  So using the assumption you just need to adjust the offset value as described above, the PID to SSR side of the circuit appears to be working properly.

    Ok, back to my wiring issue observation....

    Remember that output from the PID is a low amperage triggering signal to activate the SSR only and does not power anything on the output side of the SSR. Since the LED on the SSR is lit, it shows the SSR is triggered and the solid state "relay" on the other side of the SSR is "closed" and would be completing the circuit on that side of the unit acting as a switch only. 

    Problem I see is you have the female outlet portion of the cut extension cord wired there (on the output or "switched" side of the SSR), but there is nothing to switch the way that outlet is wired now.  There is no power input on the controlled side of the SSR being switched by the SSR in your photo and in essence it's just the cut end of the extension cord hanging out in limbo.  You need to think of the SSR like a single pole switch (basic switch) that goes in one leg of the AC power that should be going to that extension cord end.  When the SSR is not active, the "switch" is open and no power flows to the load (heating element), when active the "switch" is closed and the power flows so the heating element turns on.

    Be very careful when working with 120v AC as this stuff can injure or kill if done wrong (and quickly too).   If you are not certain about your abilities, seek help.

    You need something similar to this (IMPORTANT NOTE*** This PID has different PIN out terminals than yours.  Use the pin out for your model, but refer to the rest of the image for a sample of how to provide power to both the PID and the load side of the SSR which is switched on/off.

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  4. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    here is the probe I bought http://www.ebay.com/itm/330890374816?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

    I tried to hook it up and follow the instructions just like the one you posted in fact I think that was the same exact diagram..i did have it set to Celsius but changed it .  as far a my wiring If I put power to the one side just like it is it will kick in when the temp drop and power the female side wont it?? 
     
  5. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    I wonder if I have the wrong temp probe????
     
  6. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    No that probe should work with the TA4 PID. 

    You have a Standard Pt100 RTD Thin Film Sensor class B sensor according to the info on ebay.  That PID will work with a Pt100 RTD sensor, but it has to be configured properly and attached to the right terminals (three wires instead of two).   Temp range for Class B covers the entire range from –200°C to 850°C but I did see in the specs the lead wires are protected to 260C which is 500F.  You should be fine for everything from cold smoking to high heat poultry at 375* (assuming your cabinet insulation can handle that temp).

    It should work.
    That diagram is for a 2 wire thermocouple which is not the same thing as a RTD type sensor.  Similar in appearance but electrically different in operation.  The J & K type thermocouples are the more common setup from what I've seen and without that ebay link I was not thinking you had a RTD sensor since your photo showed a 2 wire (usually J thermocouples are 2 wire and are very common).

    Yes, when properly hooked up and configured, the PID will sense the pit temps via the sensor and if the pit temp is below the set point temp (the desired pit temp) it will turn the heating element on until it reaches the set point temp.

    It works by monitoring the pit temp via the RTD sensor. If the temp is below the set point the PID will send a triggering signal to the SSR closing the electronic "switch" in the SSR completing the power circuit on the output side of the SSR (again, think of a single pole or simple on/off switch being flipped).  This completes the AC load side of the circuit providing power to the heating element.  The triggering output from the PID will keep the SSR "switch" closed powering the heating element until the PID senses the pit temp has reached the set point you programmed in the PID (225* for example).  The PID then stops the triggering signal to the SSR which opens the electronic "switch" turning the power to the heating element off.  When the temp in the pit falls back down, the PID will repeat the above process as necessary throughout the smoke (set it and forget it type of thing). 

    IMPORTANT..... I just noticed the schematic on your actual PID is not the same as the schematic in the PDF file for the TA4 PID I had (I can only open one right now and did not save it, apparently the FTP server the other is on is currently offline?).

    USE THE SCHEMATIC FROM THE  STICKER ON THE PID - SEE BELOW NOTES.


    I think once you add those two jumpers to the setup it may work properly.  If you have already changed the off set, I would change it back to the original setting (probably 0).  I also found another forum post in a brewing forum where adding these jumpers to a two wire RTD setup solved the problem and their schematic matched yours from the photo.  It appears from the schematic this PID will work with either a 2, 3, or 4 wire RTD and the internal circuitry of the PID performs as a 4 wire RTD balanced setup by adding jumpers as needed (4 wire is the desired setup for highest accuracy in a RTD sensor). 
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  7. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Let me restate this (and I don't mean to offend you, but seeing that female outlet wired that way in your photos really concerns me).  This advise is for anyone who tinkers with residential circuits.

    If you are not at least 110% certain of your ability working with 115V AC circuits, please seek the help of a friend who is either an electrician or otherwise adequately trained in AC wiring.  One improper hookup of an AC line current/voltage can and will kill almost instantly.  At best you can and will seriously injure yourself by involuntary jerking away from the shock if the jolt is not fatal.  

    Hell, even people who know what they are doing and licensed electricians get "bit" more than you will ever know.

    Be Smart & Be Safe....
     
  8. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    So is it hooked up right beside the jumper wires?? I was wondering if I needed to jumper them but wAsnt sure
     
  9. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    What's wrong with having a female plug there?? It needs to be there to plug in my heating element. I have a box to put it into but it was easier to keep it out till I know how to get it hooked up.
     
  10. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Yes, from what I can see from the photos you have, it appears you just need to add those two jumpers.  Let us know if the temp reading in ice water is more normal then.  I would then check it in boiling water too as that will be very close to smoking cabinet temps and a good accuracy test. You may still need to fiddle with the offset slightly, but RTD probes are usually pretty accurate and it should not be 38* off like it is now.

    **And fix that AC load side of the SSR issue**

    Also once you get everything running and wired up in the smoker cabinet, don't forget to make sure the auto-tune function is turned on.  That lets the PID "learn" the actual performance of your heating element in your cabinet and adjust it's programming to hold the temp band as tight as possible.  It anticipates when it needs to turn on (it's a smart controller).
    Nothing wrong with using a female outlet on a cord or a female outlet on a box.  The problem is there is no AC input on that side of the SSR "switch" in your earlier photos to provide any power to that outlet.  Electrically what you have is the same thing as cutting the last foot off of the extension cord and laying the cut section on the floor.  There is nothing attached to the wires providing power to the outlet.  The SSR appears to be switching "on" closing the output side "switch" of the SSR, but there is no power to be switched as it sits in your photos.

    Do you have an VOM available?    Test your hot and common leds on the female plug for voltage and you will see none.  Test it for continuity and you will see continuity as the SSR is acting as a switch closing the open end of the cut section of extension cord.

    Give me a minute and I'll post a wiring diagram of what you have electrically....
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  11. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    I asked if it was hooked up right and u say yes but in the next paragraph u say **And fix that AC load side of the SSR issue** I'm confused sorry. What needs to be changed?
     
  12. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    do I just need to turn the ssr around as in I have the wires on the wrong side?
     
  13. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Ok, took me a minute or two to draw out the illustrations.

    We have actually been talking about two totally different issues in your thread and I think it has caused some confusion. 

    1)  The PID temp reading being off and the apparent missing jumpers on the PID terminals. I addressed the solution in my earlier response above (add the 2 jumpers and retest the readings in ice water and boiling water). It appears from the LED being lit on your SSR, you do have the SSR trigger signal lines properly connected (the wires from terminals 3 & 4 on the PID that go to the trigger input side of the SSR).  DO NOT move them on the PID or SSR.  Just add the two jumpers to the PID terminals as indicated earlier.

    2)  There is no 115v power coming into the SSR to be "switched" on/off or to power any load (heating element) which would be plugged into that female outlet you have pigtailed off one side of the SSR. This is what I was talking about in my **And fix that AC load side of the SSR issue** comment.  Let's talk about this issue in a little more detail now.  Hopefully this will clear up what I'm seeing.

    The normal way to wire a SSR to control a load/heating element is one leg of the 115v or 230v power to the load is "switched" on and off via the output side of the SSR.  There is no power from the PID that will cross over to the output side of the SSR.  In your photo #2 the only thing you have coming into your SSR is a low voltage, low current triggering signal from the PID to electronically "switch" the output side of the SSR on or off.  But you have nothing there to switch on or off the way it is wired now.

    Take a look at these three diagrams and I hope I can make this clearer.




    I'm pretty sure from your photo #1 this is a image of the same type of SSR you have and I will be talking about the markings on this one in this photo next.  If yours is different, let me know (and post a clear photo of what you have).

    On this SSR, the side marked as "INPUT" is the trigger input and is input via terminals 3 & 4 in this photo.  This is the low voltage and low amperage triggering signal the PID outputs that tells the circuits inside the SSR to "switch" on or off the load being controlled on the other side of the SSR.  The load or heater would be controlled via terminals 1 & 2 in this photo.  When the red LED is lit, this is a visual indicator that the electronic "switch" inside the SSR has completed the circuit connecting the wires connected to terminals 1 & 2. 

    It looks to me you have understood the "INPUT" marking on the SSR to mean that is a 115v high amperage input that actually powers the load/heater.  That is incorrect, it's just a triggering signal. 

    See that little gap in the line below the 24 ~ 380VAC markings between the #1 and #2.  Think of the simple on/switch being located there and when "on" the gap is closed.  All the SSR does is close that point in the circuit connecting the wires on terminal #1 and #2 together. You need to have one leg of the 115v household power switched by using one wire from the 115v household current to either terminal #1 or #2 (does not matter which -see my last illustration in this response above this text). In your photo #1 there is no 115v power on that side of the SSR at all at any time. 

    Does this make any better sense about what I'm talking about in the **And fix that AC load side of the SSR issue** comment now?

    Again, let me say if you are not sure of what I'm talking about please get someone to who works with 115v circuits to come work with you on this.  115v power can be very dangerous and potentially deadly if done incorrectly.

     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  14. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Let me add this.

    To fix the #2 problem problem I'm talking about above you should add a terminal strip to your circuit.  Most people use ones like this but there are other designs that perform the same purpose.


    The terminal strip lets you branch 115v power to more than one device at a time.  You have two 115v powered devices.  One is the PID and the other will be the load/heater.  Remember the PID is *NOT* providing any 115v power to the SSR only a triggering signal to close the SSR's output side "switch".  I would also add a cabinet ground for safety.  Also make sure the terminal strip is rated to handle the breaker load and voltage of the 115v power coming from your 115v household outlet (as long as it's the same or higher rating you are good, higher is better - example would be a 230v/20amp rated terminal strip on a outlet protected by a 115v/15 amp breaker). Note: depending on your cabinet and electrical component housing design you may not need a cabinet ground - if they are a wood box smoker with a plastic electrical box holding all the wiring and parts, no cabinet ground point exists so you could eliminate that 2nd green wire but keep the one going to the female outlet pigtail.

    So you will have a black, a white and a green wire coming into one side of the terminal strip terminals and on the other side you will have two black and two white and two green wires going to your two devices (ground devices are the cabinet & load ground).  You want to keep the 115v power going into the PID on the same terminals you have it on now as it is correct as is.

    Next is where the "fix" takes place for issue #2 I was talking about. 
    • Take the white wire off of terminal #2 on the SSR and connect it to one of the terminal strip terminals that is connected to the white wire from your extension cord (the half that is plugged into the household power at the wall).  What you want is an electrically uninterrupted white wire from the wall outlet to your plug on your pigtail. 
    • Take the green wire from your pigtail and connected it to one of the terminal strip terminals that is connected to the green wire from your extension cord (the half that is plugged into the household power at the wall).  Then at some point when you install the working circuit in your cabinet, this is when I would  add a cabinet ground wire (this will be a new green wire - it can also be bare copper). This new wire will go from that same terminal as the green wire going to your female pigtail outlet to a screw on your cabinet if either the cabinet or any of the exposed parts of the cabinet or any box containing the electrical components you are adding (PID, SSR, etc...) is metal.  What you want is all the exposed metal parts electrically bonded and grounded so if any of the 115v power leaks to the cabinet/box it will flow to ground and trip the breaker instead of energizing.  This would prevent a shock if a wire came loose or was chaffed by a sharp edge allowing 115v power to energize the cabinet.  If this happened and the exposed metal was not grounded the 115v power would shock you the next time you touched the exposed and energized part. What you want is an electrically uninterrupted green wire from the wall outlet to the two grounding points which would make the exposed metal parts of the cabinet and/or electrical component box all bonded as a single point.
    • You want to be using the SSR to switch the black side of the 115v power cord only.  Take a new piece of black wire and connect from one of the terminal strip terminals that is connected to the black wire from your extension cord (again the half that is plugged into the household power at the wall).  The other end goes to terminal #2 on the SSR.   Keep the black wire from your pigtail outlet connected to terminal #1.  The SSR output side will only have black wires on it when done.
    • DO NOT change the position of the two PID low voltage output that goes from the back of your PID into the INPUT side of the SSR (terminals 3 & 4 on the SSR).  For simplicity and clarity I would consider changing the color of those two wires to red and blue. I think the fact is says "input" and you have used the same black & white wire as the extension cord can make it easier to confuse the function of those two wires (remember, they are low voltage DC triggering signals only on those two wires).  Changing the colors should make it easier to visualize their purpose when looking at the wired components.  I would make your positive wire the red one and the negative wire the blue one as polarity does matter for the triggering signal since it is a DC signal.  In my illustration below I changed the colors to red & blue for further clarity.
    • That should do it.
    These changes let the "switch" inside the SSR act like a simple single throw on/off switch controlling the 115v heating element by switching the black wire of the household power in your extension cord.

    It would look like this diagram when you are done. In this diagram the "switch" between terminals #1 & #2 of the SSR is open or off (no triggering signal from the PID being sent to the SSR).  So in this diagram the heating element would also be off.

    I probably will not be back online here until sometime after lunch on Saturday as it's 5:35am here (on Saturday) now.  I took way more time than I figured working on these diagrams and I hope they help clarify what I'm talking about.  Hopefully others will chime in if needed as there is a lot of knowledge on this forum and we are all willing to help.

     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  15. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  16. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    something like this mayb???
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  17. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    No that is still not right.

    Use this diagram.  I would use a terminal strip in the final design but you could test without it. It has the terminals from your SSR numbered in the diagram. 

    If I were you I would get different color wires for the low voltage triggering signal from the PID to the SSR (from terminal #'s 3 & 4 on the PID to terminals # 3 & 4 on the SSR).  There should *NEVER* be 115v AC on the side of the SSR where terminals 3 & 4 are.  Your 115v AC is always on the terminal 1 & 2 side of the SSR.  It's easy to think of those wires from the PID as 115v, but they are not.  It is a low voltage (usually under 20v) and it's DC only which is why you have polarity markings.  The PID does not put out 115v at all, only the low voltage DC control signal or triggering signal that will cause the electronic "switch" between terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR to close when the PID outputs the DC voltage (ie, when the temp is too low).  That's why I changed the wire colors to red & blue in the diagram.  To make it easier to distinguish between them and that the red & blue carry a low voltage triggering signal only.

    Not sure what sort of diode matrix protects the PID, but if you input AC on the wrong terminals you can fry it.  The way it is in your photos you have the output from the PID crossed over each half of the SSR (the triggering output from the PID to the SSR terminals 3 & 4 looked right in your first photos as the SSR was triggering - LED was on).  It might damage the PID if you fired it up now.

    Let's do this.  Don't worry about anything on terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR for now.  I would totally take that female plug pigtail off and set it aside.  Once you get the PID controlling the SSR properly again, you can add it back in.

    This is what we are going to work towards in the final setup.   Give me a few minutes to work on another diagram of just the PID and SSR so we can take it one stage at a time.

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  18. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    your drawing makes no since... where are the wires going off the strip?? in to space?? is that where the male end of the cord is?? whats there??? it clearly is going somewhere but where? im not using a strip I don't have one
     
  19. ryans01z28

    ryans01z28 Fire Starter

    does this look better?
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  20. dward51

    dward51 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Confirm for me that this is what the back of your PID (the TA4 control unit) looks like.  6 terminals on each side with terminal #1 being the top left if you are looking at the back of the PID and terminal #12 would be the bottom right (and like this photo you may actually not have terminals #11 and #12)

     

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