Low and slow...the myth.

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The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.

Twin#1 is cooked at 325°

Twin#2 is cooked at 225°

Let's also assume the appliance (smoker/grill) are also identical. Twin#1 preheated to 325° and Twin#2 to 225°. Also ignoring the fact that there will be more air convection at 325°.

I am at work and doing this by memory. So the numbers may not be correct.

Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. 

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. 

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts.

dcarch
 
 
The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.

Twin#1 is cooked at 325°

Twin#2 is cooked at 225°

Let's also assume the appliance (smoker/grill) are also identical. Twin#1 preheated to 325° and Twin#2 to 225°. Also ignoring the fact that there will be more air convection at 325°.

I am at work and doing this by memory. So the numbers may not be correct.

Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. 

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. 

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts.

dcarch
I am sorry, but I whole heartedly disagree. I have cooked hot and fast and low and slow and the difference is patently obvious, hot and fast is cooked much more quickly, cutting cooking time by as much as 50%. And the meat is always cooked , otherwise it would not get served to my friends and family.
 
 
The identical pork butts may be a good case to clarify the concept.

Twin#1 is cooked at 325°

Twin#2 is cooked at 225°

Let's also assume the appliance (smoker/grill) are also identical. Twin#1 preheated to 325° and Twin#2 to 225°. Also ignoring the fact that there will be more air convection at 325°.

I am at work and doing this by memory. So the numbers may not be correct.

Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. OK I understand this part but doesn't the higher heat meat get up to 212 quicker and evaporate the moisture quicker?

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. Makes sense to me.

However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. This I am having trouble with, its like saying broiling a steak at 600° will cook to the center as quick as a steak that is baked at 225° I have steaks that cook through to center much quicker at high heat on my sear station.

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.

??? I am definitely having trouble with this. lol.

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster I can see how it would dry out the exterior quicker on something like a butt or large piece of meat. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. so will a higher heat piece of meat if cooked properly. It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts. I agree that you can control texture by various cooking methods ie: foiling vs. non foiling.

dcarch
Now my head hurts but I like it!!!
 
FWI here's a post from my website with cook times based on my pit. I am curious as well as to what others are getting.

Temperature:

Your cooking temperature is one of the biggest variables when cooking, see the chart below for an example, these numbers are based on cooking the meat on a pit to an internal temperature of 200°-205° using wood and no foil.
Many die hard Low and Slow folks say 225° is the best temp for cooking butts/picnics, after many cooks I have found my happy ground at 275°. I have not noticed a change in flavor profile, texture nor moistness one way or another, however you will need to find your favorite cooking temp. Just a word of caution, if you do decide on the lower temps at least keep it up to 250° the first 2 or three hours to help you get through the danger zone safely.


9 pounds @ 225° = 90 - 120 minutes per/lb [13.5 - 18 hours]
9 pounds @ 250° = 80 -   90 minutes per/lb [ 12 - 13.5 hours]
9 pounds @ 275° = 60 -   80 minutes per/lb [   9 - 12 hours]


9 pounds @ 275° = 50 -   60 minutes per/lb [   7.5 - 9 hours] FOILED

You can see the gap in time is dramatically decreased at higher heats, the lower heat time gap is huge.

The foiling also helps get through the evaporative process quicker.

My last few cooks were at around 52 minutes a pound at 275° foiled
 
LOL SQUIB closest I can tell is our H&F cooks couldn't possibly get done much faster and if they do they'll be dry on the outside.   Am i close or am I missing something. 
th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif
 
 
I am sorry, but I whole heartedly disagree. I have cooked hot and fast and low and slow and the difference is patently obvious, hot and fast is cooked much more quickly, cutting cooking time by as much as 50%. And the meat is always cooked , otherwise it would not get served to my friends and family.
And that is why it is very interesting to consider the whole science of cooking, the chemistry and the physics of cooking. It really requires rigorous and exact definition of the environment and conditions. Otherwise theories will be seemingly in conflict with realities.

It is entirely possible what you are saying is true, depends on many other variables which will effect the end result and observation.

At the end, we are going to agree that under sea level atmospheric pressure, (ignoring the strange phenomenon of super cooling and super heating of water) water cannot ever get hotter than 212F and you cannot make ice hotter than 32F. It really does not matter who you are and what you do. You will win the Nobel Price in science if you have found a way with your smoker to change that.

Like wise, property of heat transfer of material, i.e. coefficient of thermal conductivity, if you look it up, is a constant. Heat goes from high to low, the law of entropy, is not changeable (except a little in metals, which heat transfer is somewhat electrically based). Heat will travel from high to low at a specific rate, based on the single number you can look up from a table.

That too will get you to be very famous, if your grilling technique can change that.

We are not talking about difference of opinions or preference here. I think.

dcarch
 
Air carries 0.005 BTU of heat per degree F per cubic foot. At 325° there will be more BTUs to heat up the surface to a higher temperature than 225°, still the moisture in both #1 & #2 will prevent the heat to go to 212F. OK I understand this part but doesn't the higher heat meat get up to 212 quicker and evaporate the moisture quicker?

 

Yes. See comment below.

The surface temperatures, if measured by an IR thermometer, the 325° twin#1 will be higher than Twin#2. Makes sense to me.

However, based on the same thermal conductivity constant for both #1 and #2, the higher heat and the lower heat will travel at the exact same speed into the center of the meat. This I am having trouble with, its like saying broiling a steak at 600° will cook to the center as quick as a steak that is baked at 225° I have steaks that cook through to center much quicker at high heat on my sear station.

 

Actually that is not what I said. It is the speed of travel the same not the degree of heat.

Soon, most of the moisture will be dried up by the heat for both #1 and #2 and the surface temperature for both will get to be close to 212F. At this point, and again because of conductivity is a constant property, the 212F heat for both #1 and #2 will travel at the same speed into the center of the meat.

??? I am definitely having trouble with this. lol.

 

Let me try again. :-) When the temperature of both #1 and #2 get to be 212F, that same 212F will both travel at the same speed to the center.

Bottom line,

High & fast, heat will get the center hot faster but not much. It  will give the exterior the kind of mouth feel that is desired, but it will dry out the exterior faster I can see how it would dry out the exterior quicker on something like a butt or large piece of meat. For thick pieces of meat there is also a concern that the center may not be cooked.

Low & slow, meat will alway be cooked. so will a higher heat piece of meat if cooked properly.  It is a method to control meat texture a different way for different kinds of cuts. I agree that you can control texture by various cooking methods ie: foiling vs. non foiling.

Correct. One method is not better than the other, depends on what you are trying to achieve. But being able to work with the limitations of the unchangeable laws of physics is that little edge that wins you the crown in a  competition.

 

dcarch

 
 
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Dcarch

I
 
And that is why it is very interesting to consider the whole science of cooking, the chemistry and the physics of cooking. It really requires rigorous and exact definition of the environment and conditions. Otherwise theories will be seemingly in conflict with realities.

It is entirely possible what you are saying is true, depends on many other variables which will effect the end result and observation.

At the end, we are going to agree that under sea level atmospheric pressure, (ignoring the strange phenomenon of super cooling and super heating of water) water cannot ever get hotter than 212F and you cannot make ice hotter than 32F. It really does not matter who you are and what you do. You will win the Nobel Price in science if you have found a way with your smoker to change that.

Like wise, property of heat transfer of material, i.e. coefficient of thermal conductivity, if you look it up, is a constant. Heat goes from high to low, the law of entropy, is not changeable (except a little in metals, which heat transfer is somewhat electrically based). Heat will travel from high to low at a specific rate, based on the single number you can look up from a table. But by increasing the heat the product gets to the 212° quicker than using a lower heat... is this correct? So in essence the product will cook quicker only because of reaching the 212 threshold quicker? but the rate of thermal conductivity will remain the same on both since it moves through the meat at a specific rate.... OMG I think I may understand this s*#t!!!!   Do I get my Physics Merit Badge?

That too will get you to be very famous, if your grilling technique can change that.

We are not talking about difference of opinions or preference here. I think.

dcarch
 
Awesome, Ok I feel better now because I understand it, at first I thought you were trying to convince us that the cook times would be the same regardless of the heat but the fact that higher heat gets to the 212 threshold quicker = a quicker cook.
How about we drop this so called science/ tables and charts because it obviously doesn't work in the real world of BBQ.  Fair enough?
Yes we can move on I just wanted to understand this and hopefully others can make sense of this as well. I just don't like calling BS on people but rather want to understand.
 
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I'm still more confused than ever.   I cook pork 10 plus # butts @ 280-300 degrees in 7 1/2 and they're cooked perfectly inside and out without foiling.   I cook BB ribs and spare ribs @ 400-to well over 600 degrees and they're done in less than 90 minutes perfect inside and out.     How this equates to this 212* stuff is beyond me...nor do i care.   The only thing that matters is real world experience and results, I'll save the science charts for TP. 
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Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO
 
I smoked 2 butts this weekend.. One had to be finished on my propane grilll ( why is for another thread).. It was 170 and I took it off the smoker and put it on the cool side of my grill at about 300 degrees.. It reached 205 in about 40 mins, so i wrapped it and put it in the cooler with the other one for two hours... Both were delish but the one done entirely on the smoke had a better taste than

the on on th the grill.. as subtle as it was my wife even said it tasted "Flat". So hot and fast will get you there, but it may not be where you want to be.
 
 
Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO
If over 400 is grilling then they shouldn't call this a smoke ring.   The definitions of all this stuff is subjective. I'm getting just as much smoke ring and taste on my high heat rib cooks that's all i know.   It's amazing the flavor that a high heat fire can impart in meat and i'm not talking a charcoal grill fire but rather a stick burning fire. 

 
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Im with you, if it comes out good thats all that counts.. But !!!!  at that temp you are not getting all of that wonderful long smokey goodness. at 400+ you are grilling not smokin.. IMHO
Round and round we go.
So if I am infusing smoke at a higher heat its not smoking? What if I'm infusing smoke at 50° is that smoking.
As mentioned before some things are subjective but applying smoke at any temperature is smoking... I think most will agree to that. Smoking is in my opinion infusing smoke into a product and is not dictated by temperature.
I get a hint of smoke on my fast and hot ribs. Furthermore I want to eat and taste meat not smoke...ahint of smoke is more than enough... its there as a flavoring like an ingredient. Too much smoke flavoring takes away from the meat.
And to be quite honest you only need an hour of smoke for ribs and a few hours of smoke for butts and picnics to get a wonderful hint of smoke. I think there's too much emphasis on the smoking end of the cook and most think more is better. In my book less is more
But that's just me
 
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Fat cap up or down? It's all good as long as the finish product is awesome. Never ment to
Start a fight.. I'm a smoker not a fighter.. Lol
 
bottom  line for me is this. if meat is cooking in a chamber that allows smoke to penetrate the meat wether over direct heat(UDS) or off set, im smoking meat, regardless of temperature. if im cooking meat over fire, but not in a closed chamber, im grilling. doesnt mean you wont get smoke flavor from the wood burning, but i just dont call it smoking. I personally feel that there is absolutely nothing to be gained from doing everything low and slow. i do pork butts at 275, briskets at 300, chicken at 325, and ribs at 275. If you have never tried cooking a little faster, i dont think you should knock it. i used to do everything low, then i tried the hotter method a couple of times, and after a couple of tweaks, realized i got even better results. If you have tried it, and didnt care for it, by all means, use whatever method gives you the product you like, but i can tell you from experience that every type of meat commonly discussed on these boards can be smoked just as effectivly at 300 as 225. it may not have worked for you the first time, but it may just require a tweak to your method. nobody is wrong in how they cook if it creates the product they want, but i have an issue with guys bashing other people, saying they arent smoking meat or whatever just becuase its different than how you do it.some people are just too close minded to give a different opinion any validity. "old school" isnt necessarily right. neither is "new school"
 
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