Getting through danger zone

[endo129]

I would think that single malt scotch would sanitize and add to the flavor profile in a unique way. May be time for a test run. If no one gets sick for three cooks that would be proof it works and then it would surely be a warranted expenditure for health and safety purposes. If at least three of you agree then I will inform she-who-is-never-wrong.

Agreed!

 

[letitroll]

I am looking for some advise but I'm pretty sure I already know the sad answer. I threw a pork butt on the smoker tonight for a family gathering tomorrow. I broke the cardinal rule and injected the butt. I did throw it back in the refrigerator after prepping but hear comes that sad part. At the four hour mark I was only at 131 IT. At four hours and eighteen minutes it hit 135 IT. Would you all throw this 9.5lb butt in the trash?

 

[stovebolt]

 There is no chance I'd throw it away if I had to eat it all myself. 40 to 140 in 4 is a food safety guideline that is good to shoot for, but you aren't far enough away from it to be frightening to me.

 Others may not agree but I think most will.

Chuck

 

[qpalmzwoksnx]

I'm at my brothers place for the weekend and brought my Mes 30 to do a shoulder and some ribs. It was also my first time with my amnps and it seemed to be going fairly smoothly. It took maybe 4.5 hours to 5 hours to hit the 140 mark, but I didn't probe it until hour 4 and it was at 131. Here is where my issue is. I was feeling confident in how the amnps was doing with smoke that I took a nap. It seems the outlet that I used was tied to a light switch in the living room (extension cord out the window) and somebody hit that and cut power to the smoker. I woke up and check on it and this is where I am. Internal temp is at 153, but hasn't had proper heat for about 2.5hours. I'm not sure why my maverick alarm didn't go off for low temperature in the smoker. Now the question is do I toss the shoulder to be safe and try to scramble other food for today? Or am I safe to keep going with this shoulder?

 

[Bearcarver]

 
I'm at my brothers place for the weekend and brought my Mes 30 to do a shoulder and some ribs. It was also my first time with my amnps and it seemed to be going fairly smoothly. It took maybe 4.5 hours to 5 hours to hit the 140 mark, but I didn't probe it until hour 4 and it was at 131. Here is where my issue is. I was feeling confident in how the amnps was doing with smoke that I took a nap. It seems the outlet that I used was tied to a light switch in the living room (extension cord out the window) and somebody hit that and cut power to the smoker. I woke up and check on it and this is where I am. Internal temp is at 153, but hasn't had proper heat for about 2.5hours. I'm not sure why my maverick alarm didn't go off for low temperature in the smoker. Now the question is do I toss the shoulder to be safe and try to scramble other food for today? Or am I safe to keep going with this shoulder?

Sounds good to me:

You didn't probe or inject it, so there was no rush to get to 135° or 140°.

Then later you lost power, but it didn't go below 153°.

Now it's going good??

If I'm not too late, I'd just finish it & enjoy.

Bear

 

[qpalmzwoksnx]

 
Sounds good to me:

You didn't probe or inject it, so there was no rush to get to 135° or 140°.

Then later you lost power, but it didn't go below 153°.

Now it's going good??

If I'm not too late, I'd just finish it & enjoy.

Bear

Thanks Bear, I didn't probe it until after about 4 hours and it was almost at 140. After posting and getting the heat back on it fell to a lowest point of 147. Everything is going good now. I've been losing temp here and there due to not knowing the best set up for the amnps in my mes30 and also adding the baby backs, but everything seems to have bounced back. The butt is now up to 176 and I wrapped it just to help it out.

 

[Bearcarver]

 
Thanks Bear, I didn't probe it until after about 4 hours and it was almost at 140. After posting and getting the heat back on it fell to a lowest point of 147. Everything is going good now. I've been losing temp here and there due to not knowing the best set up for the amnps in my mes30 and also adding the baby backs, but everything seems to have bounced back. The butt is now up to 176 and I wrapped it just to help it out.

Sounds like nothing to worry about.

Enjoy,

Bear

 

[letitroll]

 There is no chance I'd throw it away if I had to eat it all myself. 40 to 140 in 4 is a food safety guideline that is good to shoot for, but you aren't far enough away from it to be frightening to me.
 Others may not agree but I think most will.

Chuck

Thanks for the vote of confidence Chuck! I was really stressed out over this. Didn't really notice a better flavor profile by injecting but was very juicy. Not sure if I will ever inject another but if I do, I will make sure to start at a higher smoker temp to push through the danger zone faster and then back the smoker down.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Everybody here is good! 40 to 140 in 4 is a GUIDELINE to shoot for but 130 in 4 and 140 soon after No Problem...140 in 5? Still no problem! It is injected Butts that are 6,7,8 hours in and still not seen 140 that I would be leary of. As Bear pointed out with meat that is not injected, the 4 to 140 in 4 does not apply. READ the open statement of the SAFETY FORUM, it explains all about SMF Safety Guidelines and has Links to safe handling and smoking meat...JJ

 

[mr t 59874]

Suggest you research some temp/time guides such as used in souse vide cooking, with or without water.

T

 

[dward51]

 
Everybody here is good! 40 to 140 in 4 is a GUIDELINE to shoot for but 130 in 4 and 140 soon after No Problem...140 in 5? Still no problem! It is injected Butts that are 6,7,8 hours in and still not seen 140 that I would be leary of. As Bear pointed out with meat that is not injected, the 4 to 140 in 4 does not apply. READ the open statement of the SAFETY FORUM, it explains all about SMF Safety Guidelines and has Links to safe handling and smoking meat...JJ

And the thing most people miss is with an un-injected pork butt, the exposed and potentially contaminated surface of the meat is where the 140* rule matters the most. If the exterior of the butt has not been penetrated, what is inside should still be unexposed to any potential bacteria. In a smoker running at 225* the first 1/2" of meat passes the 140* mark pretty quickly.  I think a lot of the confusion is temps are being taken from the core of the meat which will take longer to rise (and pushing in that temp probe potentially moves bacteria to the core so don't rush probing).  When you inject, you are also now potentially moving bacteria to the core so the time to hit that 140* temp at the core is much more critical, but like Chef JimmyJ said, it's a GUIDELINE not an absolute.  Keep your equipment clean and use common sense and you should be good.  The idea is to have sanitary equipment an an uncontaminated injection liquid so bacteria is not a problem.  The temp/time rule is another layer of safety on top of sanitary conditions.

 
Suggest you research some temp/time guides such as used in souse vide cooking, with or without water.

T

Pasturization of the meat can occur a a lower temp with longer time.  That is how those 24 hours souse vide "cooks" at 130* work safely.  The 140* in 4 hours GUIDELINES came about for more conventional cooking methods.  Like most rules, there are exceptions and souse vide has an entirely different rule book (my mom was a home economics teacher from the 60's and 70's and the concept souse vide would drive her nuts if she was still alive.  Her idea of properly cooked was the old school "well done").

 

[johnmeyer]

Here is my post on sous vide and smoker time/temperature safety guidlines:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...rs-and-food-safety-were-safer-than-we-thought

Much of the food safety advice in these forums is overly-cautious, IMHO. However, in a public forum, no one wants to give advice that might end up making someone sick, so I understand this caution.

The concern about food staying in the danger zone too long is not about the production of the bacteria. Why? Because once the food is above the safe zone temperature (which is actually much lower than the USDA temps given on the first page of their warnings -- see above link), the bacteria is killed.

Instead, the real issue is whether the bacteria present inside your meat produces toxins which are heat stable, i.e., the bacteria may be killed by the time the meat is done, but before they die, if they produced heat-stable toxins, those will still make you sick, even though those toxins are not alive.

However, most meat doesn't contain much, if any, of this toxin-producing bacteria inside the meat. The real risk is what is on the surface. To dramatically reduce this threat, I always wash all my meat before I prep it, just as I would wash any fruit or vegetable. This greatly diminishes the surface bacteria. Then, when I insert the thermometer, since the surface is now pretty clean, I won't introduce much bacteria to the inside of the meat. Finally, I usually start my smoker on the hot side, both to increase the amount of smoke produced (it is an MES), and to decrease the time it takes to get above 120, the point at which bacteria start to die. As the link above explains, the higher temps given in the safety guidelines are temperatures designed to kill the bacteria almost instantly, even though much lower temperatures will eventually kill the same number of these germs.

 

[jp61]

 
Here is my post on sous vide and smoker time/temperature safety guidlines:

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...rs-and-food-safety-were-safer-than-we-thought

Much of the food safety advice in these forums is overly-cautious, IMHO. However, in a public forum, no one wants to give advice that might end up making someone sick, so I understand this caution.

The concern about food staying in the danger zone too long is not about the production of the bacteria. Why? Because once the food is above the safe zone temperature (which is actually much lower than the USDA temps given on the first page of their warnings -- see above link), the bacteria is killed.

Instead, the real issue is whether the bacteria present inside your meat produces toxins which are heat stable, i.e., the bacteria may be killed by the time the meat is done, but before they die, if they produced heat-stable toxins, those will still make you sick, even though those toxins are not alive.

However, most meat doesn't contain much, if any, of this toxin-producing bacteria inside the meat. The real risk is what is on the surface. To dramatically reduce this threat, I always wash all my meat before I prep it, just as I would wash any fruit or vegetable. This greatly diminishes the surface bacteria. Then, when I insert the thermometer, since the surface is now pretty clean, I won't introduce much bacteria to the inside of the meat. Finally, I usually start my smoker on the hot side, both to increase the amount of smoke produced (it is an MES), and to decrease the time it takes to get above 120, the point at which bacteria start to die. As the link above explains, the higher temps given in the safety guidelines are temperatures designed to kill the bacteria almost instantly, even though much lower temperatures will eventually kill the same number of these germs.

In order to prevent cross-contamination, food-safety experts suggest not to wash meat or poultry before cooking.

 

[smokethefish]

Someone mentioned the probe being sterile which makes sense. How does one sterilize the probes?

You can also just use bleach and water. An even mix should do the trick. If you're using condensed bleach (which is recommended for cleaning your smokers) then I'd say make it 75:25 water.

 

[johnmeyer]

 
In order to prevent cross-contamination, food-safety experts suggest not to wash meat or poultry before cooking.

I have not seen that before, and I am not sure I understand why washing meat would lead to cross-contamination. However, it didn't take much searching to confirm that what you say is indeed the recommendation from the USDA. Here is a link to their article that says precisely what you are saying:

Washing Food: Does it Promote Food Safety?

However, I find myself scratching my head over this advice.

Cross contamination is where utensils (or hands) that have touched the raw product are later used to handle the cooked product, thus adding back to the finished product all the bacteria that was removed from the food by cooking. When I wash meat, and then cook it, I wash all the utensils, the counter, the sink, and my hands immediately after the meat goes into the oven or grill. However, the USDA article assumes that I am too incompetent to carry out these tasks correctly, and therefore, because they assume that I am unable to clean up correctly, bad stuff will get back onto the meat a few hours later when I bring the meat to the table.

To me, this makes zero sense!

Why?

Because the same thing applies to washing fruits and vegetables and therefore, if I apply the same logic, I should not wash them either.

What's more, it also applies even if I follow the USDA suggestion and don't wash the meat!! Think about it: If the meat is contaminated, and if it is assumed that I am too incompetent to adequately clean the sink, counter surfaces, utensils and hands before doing something else, then I'm going to create cross contamination no matter whether I wash, or don't wash, my meat and poultry. After all, I have to handle the meat while I cut it, apply a rub, place it on the racks, etc., so the cutting board, countertop and pretty much all the same surfaces will get soiled with meat juice, etc.

So, even though the source for this information is the USDA itself, the advice seems to me to be based on some fatally flawed assumptions.

I think your post is really important, and I'm glad you pointed out the USDA advice, but like so many other things recommended by government agencies, it looks to be not particularly well thought out.

I will continue to wash my meat and poultry, and despite the USDA warning, I'd recommend that other people do so as well.

 

[dirtsailor2003]

I have not seen that before, and I am not sure I understand why washing meat would lead to cross-contamination. However, it didn't take much searching to confirm that what you say is indeed the recommendation from the USDA. Here is a link to their article that says precisely what you are saying:

Washing Food: Does it Promote Food Safety?

However, I find myself scratching my head over this advice.

Cross contamination is where utensils (or hands) that have touched the raw product are later used to handle the cooked product, thus adding back to the finished product all the bacteria that was removed from the food by cooking. When I wash meat, and then cook it, I wash all the utensils, the counter, the sink, and my hands immediately after the meat goes into the oven or grill. However, the USDA article assumes that I am too incompetent to carry out these tasks correctly, and therefore, because they assume that I am unable to clean up correctly, bad stuff will get back onto the meat a few hours later when I bring the meat to the table.

To me, this makes zero sense!

Why?

Because the same thing applies to washing fruits and vegetables and therefore, if I apply the same logic, I should not wash them either.

What's more, it also applies even if I follow the USDA suggestion and don't wash the meat!! Think about it: If the meat is contaminated, and if it is assumed that I am too incompetent to adequately clean the sink, counter surfaces, utensils and hands before doing something else, then I'm going to create cross contamination no matter whether I wash, or don't wash, my meat and poultry. After all, I have to handle the meat while I cut it, apply a rub, place it on the racks, etc., so the cutting board, countertop and pretty much all the same surfaces will get soiled with meat juice, etc.

So, even though the source for this information is the USDA itself, the advice seems to me to be based on some fatally flawed assumptions.

I think your post is really important, and I'm glad you pointed out the USDA advice, but like so many other things recommended by government agencies, it looks to be not particularly well thought out.

I will continue to wash my meat and poultry, and despite the USDA warning, I'd recommend that other people do so as well.

In the short it has been found that when you wash meat, the icky stuff can fly off and survive as far as 6-10 feet (depending on what study), and then thrive in that new location, contaminating everything it touches. So if you wash meat and all that bad stuff lands wherever you are working, anything in that zone that you set down, may now be contaminated.

I do not rinse or wash meat.

 

[jp61]

 
I have not seen that before, and I am not sure I understand why washing meat would lead to cross-contamination. However, it didn't take much searching to confirm that what you say is indeed the recommendation from the USDA. Here is a link to their article that says precisely what you are saying:

Washing Food: Does it Promote Food Safety?

However, I find myself scratching my head over this advice.

Cross contamination is where utensils (or hands) that have touched the raw product are later used to handle the cooked product, thus adding back to the finished product all the bacteria that was removed from the food by cooking. When I wash meat, and then cook it, I wash all the utensils, the counter, the sink, and my hands immediately after the meat goes into the oven or grill. However, the USDA article assumes that I am too incompetent to carry out these tasks correctly, and therefore, because they assume that I am unable to clean up correctly, bad stuff will get back onto the meat a few hours later when I bring the meat to the table.

To me, this makes zero sense!

Why?

Because the same thing applies to washing fruits and vegetables and therefore, if I apply the same logic, I should not wash them either.

What's more, it also applies even if I follow the USDA suggestion and don't wash the meat!! Think about it: If the meat is contaminated, and if it is assumed that I am too incompetent to adequately clean the sink, counter surfaces, utensils and hands before doing something else, then I'm going to create cross contamination no matter whether I wash, or don't wash, my meat and poultry. After all, I have to handle the meat while I cut it, apply a rub, place it on the racks, etc., so the cutting board, countertop and pretty much all the same surfaces will get soiled with meat juice, etc.

So, even though the source for this information is the USDA itself, the advice seems to me to be based on some fatally flawed assumptions.

I think your post is really important, and I'm glad you pointed out the USDA advice, but like so many other things recommended by government agencies, it looks to be not particularly well thought out.

I will continue to wash my meat and poultry, and despite the USDA warning, I'd recommend that other people do so as well.

I just simply past on a food-safety suggestion.

I'm not going to debate the concept.

Life is full of choices.

 

[johnmeyer]

In the short it has been found that when you wash meat, the icky stuff can fly off and survive as far as 6-10 feet (depending on what study), and then thrive in that new location, contaminating everything it touches. So if you wash meat and all that bad stuff lands wherever you are working, anything in that zone that you set down, may now be contaminated.

I do not rinse or wash meat.

But doesn't the same thing happen when you cut the meat, turn it over, drop it on the ground, etc.? I have had a big cut of meat (a 9-pound butt) slip from my hand and crash onto the counter. Juisce splattered. Also, when I take the meat out of the wrapper, there is always juice in the bag or container, and it often spills onto the counter.

So, once again, I see absolutely no difference from the contamination that is going to happen when handling and preparing the unwashed meat, and the contamination that might happen from the splashing during a rinse. The bad stuff is there, and it is going to get all over the place no matter what. I'd rather have the exterior relatively clean when doing the subsequent preparation steps. Also, I'd rather not have the residual junk left over from the slaughterhouse. This is especially true of poultry. I have never been to a poultry slaughterhouse, but I watched an extensive movie, showing the entire process, for an industrial engineering class forty years ago. While the birds are rinsed during the final steps, the water is far from sterile, and there is a lot of "stuff" left on the bird. Leaving aside the bacteria count, I'd simply rather not have that stuff in the final product, simply because I don't think it will taste good.

But, as the French say, À chacun son goût,

 

[dirtsailor2003]

But doesn't the same thing happen when you cut the meat, turn it over, drop it on the ground, etc.? I have had a big cut of meat (a 9-pound butt) slip from my hand and crash onto the counter. Juisce splattered. Also, when I take the meat out of the wrapper, there is always juice in the bag or container, and it often spills onto the counter.

So, once again, I see absolutely no difference from the contamination that is going to happen when handling and preparing the unwashed meat, and the contamination that might happen from the splashing during a rinse. The bad stuff is there, and it is going to get all over the place no matter what. I'd rather have the exterior relatively clean when doing the subsequent preparation steps. Also, I'd rather not have the residual junk left over from the slaughterhouse. This is especially true of poultry. I have never been to a poultry slaughterhouse, but I watched an extensive movie, showing the entire process, for an industrial engineering class forty years ago. While the birds are rinsed during the final steps, the water is far from sterile, and there is a lot of "stuff" left on the bird. Leaving aside the bacteria count, I'd simply rather not have that stuff in the final product, simply because I don't think it will taste good.

But, as the French say, À chacun son goût,

Do as you please with your meat. This topic has been discussed here in many threads.

SMF, adheres to the recommendations of the USDA as do many members.

As someone who has and still does work in the food industry from time to time. I take the road of what's recommended.

Time to drop this Hi-Jack. If you wish to further discuss this start a new thread in the food safety forum, after you've read the threads related to your concerns.

 

[johnmeyer]

Gees, I'm sorry I ruffled feathers. This forum is usually pretty positive. I'll go away ...