fresh vs.smoked?

Discussion in 'Sausage' started by minn.bill, Oct 27, 2007.

  1. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    my question is ,what is the diff. between fresh polish sausage you make to cook on the grill,or polish sauseges that you smoke for the flaver and then later reheat to eat.why do you need to cure one but not the other? why dont you need to cure jimmydean when making fatties? i want to do both but dont know when to do witch[​IMG] please someone explain.thanks[​IMG]
  2. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    this is the 2nd time ive asked this question and out of 80 some views ive yet to get an answer is it that bad of a question?
  3. squeezy

    squeezy Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    First time I've seen it (this topic)
    Cooking bulk sausage is cooked much like a meat loaf (for immediate consumption)
    I have never seen fresh Polish sausage, I have only seen ready to eat smoked which I believe is cold smoked until cooked.
    One of our sausage experts will be along soon ... I hope!
    Hang tight!
  4. pgeobc

    pgeobc Fire Starter

    Fresh sausages, that are to be cooked as-is are not cured because they are used fresh--not smoked. The fresh sausages are preserved by refrigeration and sometimes salt content; however the salt content need not be high because the preservation is by refrigeration.

    Sausages that are to be cold smoked are first preserved with salt and cured--and then smoked. The sausages are preserved by salt and cured by nitrate/nitrite. The curing prevents botulism growth during the cold smoking process that places the meat in a temperature zone that grows botulism all too well. The salt deters the growth of othere bacteria at those same temperatures, and so these sausages usually have a healthy dose of salt in them. How much salt depends on the desired keeping and taste qualities.

    I don't eat Jimmy Dean sausage or make sausage that I call "fatties," so I can't comment on that, but I make all of my own fresh sausage for use as breakfast sausage, etc. My recipes have only a minimum amount of salt added to make a pleasant-tasting breakfast sausage and I ordinarily do not cure it.

    One can cure fresh breakfast sausage because it changes the flavor so that it is a little more ham-like. It is good that way and different, too. Such sausages can be made by grinding cured pork or adding curing salt to the mix of fresh sausage; it works either way. You can do the same for ribs on the grill by rubbing them down with Morton's Tender-Quick. Such ribs have a very pronounced ham-like flavor that is a nice change.
  5. tatonka3a2

    tatonka3a2 Meat Mopper

    I guess the biggest reason I can see for example is that we cold smoke our polish.... so we have it in the smoker at a low temp for many hours. Beacause of that we add cure so the meat won't spoil while smoking.
  6. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    so what im gathering from this is when im smoking my fresh made polishes at 180 deg for 6 hrs i'm actually cooking them so i really would not have to use any curing acid or agents is tha t correct? only if i were cold smoking right?
  7. squeezy

    squeezy Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Internal temp of sausage is most important.

    Usually 160º to 165º for pork sausage will work regardless of time.
  8. pgeobc

    pgeobc Fire Starter

    When you smoke at 180 degrees, you are smoke-cooking. In that neighborhood, the fat starts to soften and render and the protein of the meat changes significantly from the heat. All of that assumes, like the other fellow wrote, that the internal temperature of the meat gets high enough in a reasonably short period of time. The extent to which cooking occurs is dependent on the final temperature.

    I really do not know why you would need six hours to get your meat to the required 160 to 165 degrees and that is one of the implications of what Squeezy wrote. Better you should place a meat thermometer into one of your sausages and measure just how long it takes to get there. At the required temperature, enough meat protein has been denatured by the heat to kill Trichinella spiralis. Once the trichinosis is no longer an issue, the amount of doneness is up to your preference. At those temperatures, many other bacteria have been killed, too, but not all. At 165 degrees, for example, Eschericia coli, a common fecal contaminant and disease producer will have been killed. E. coli is ubiquitous and will be found in any preparation that you do.

    Bacteria grow and thrive between 40 degrees and 140 degrees. Some, such as botulism can survive 212 degrees plus. That is why nitrates and nitrites are added. Regardless of temperature, they suppress the Clostridium botulinum bacteria--they do not kill it. If there is no bacterial growth, there is no toxin produced and, hence, no sickness. There is some evidence that the nitrite makes the botulism easier to kill by heat, too.

    Salt, while adding taste to meat and helping to develop other flavors, inhibits the growth of most bacteria at higher concentrations. That is the basis for adding salt to preserve meat. Salt is part of the curing mixture, although technically it does not cure the meat--the nitrate cures the meat. The salt, when distributed into the meat, sequesters moisture and prevents is use by the bacteria; the meat looks like a desert to the bacteria and they cannot grow.

    Many tangy meats were so because the meat naturally contains Lactobacillus spp. bacteria. During the former long curing times, the Lactobacillus would produce Lactic Acid while the other bacteria were reducing the nitrate to nitrite. The added Lactic Acid produced the tangy flavor which people grew to like. The Lactic Acid also lowered the pH and made the meat more acid. Many bacteria find this acidic environment a poor place to live and multiply, so the original purpose of the tangy flavor was preservation, too. You can add one of the commercial flavoring acids to your product, if you like the flavor or if the recipe actually needs it to be correct for that type of sausage; the added acid may act as a preservative as well.

    There are some other acid salts that are occasionally added: Sodium Ascorbate, the sodium salt of Ascorbic Acid, which is Vitamin C and Sodium Erythorbate the salt of Erythorbic Acid, the stereoisomer of Vitamin C. both act as anti-oxidants and help keep the fat in the meat from turning rancid, among other things.

    Hope that helps.
  9. richtee

    richtee Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    And there you have it. Rep points forthcoming, PG!
  10. squeezy

    squeezy Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    ... and rep points fifthcoming as well ... great info.

    Didn't I tell you minn.bill, that someone would be along with the answers! [​IMG]
  11. pgeobc

    pgeobc Fire Starter

    >Rep points forthcoming, PG!<

    Many thanks.
  12. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    you were right squeezy thanks[​IMG]
  13. squeezy

    squeezy Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    I just love hearing that ... go ahead ... say it again!

    Don't often hear that at home [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  14. deejaydebi

    deejaydebi Smoking Guru

    Sorry Bill I didn't see this post eariler -

    Nitrites and Nitrates: The purpose of these "curing" ingredients is:
    (1) To inhibit the growth of certain microorganisms (including the one that causes botulism);
    (2) To develop the typical pink color of cured meats; and
    (3) To enhance the flavor of the product.

    Nitrite is the specific active ingredient which carries out the functions listed above. When nitrate is used, it must be first converted to nitrite by microorganisms present in the meat. Potassium nitrate (saltpeter) was the salt historically used for curing. However, sodium nitrite has largely replaced the use of nitrate today.

    Cooked sausages can be made without adding nitrite if desired. Such sausages will be brown in color (rather than pink), and more susceptible to flavor changes and microbial spoilage. It is best to store them in the freezer.

    I can ferment at 90F, smoke at 130F and cook at 160F which are the basic numbers needed for most sausage and ham.

    Smoked sausages are not usually cooked - they're smoked at low temperatures to get that smokey flavor but to be cooked or eatten later. That is why you need nitrates because they are smoked at very low temperatures and the nitrates are used to assure the destruction of pathagenic organisms like those that causes botulism.

    Hope this helps!
  15. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    thank you thank thank you all dejays simplictic answer did it for me. i'm in the process now of learnig how to place pics hopefully soon.[​IMG]
  16. deejaydebi

    deejaydebi Smoking Guru

    So Bill ...
    ... what kind of sausages are you making first? [​IMG]
  17. minn.bill

    minn.bill Smoking Fanatic SMF Premier Member

    ive already made a half doz batches of what i would call hot and spicey polishes.bought the base seasonings from our local meat mart and added my own touch ofred peppers garlig cayane and what ever sounds good at the time and lots of cheese like 3 lbs for 12lbs of meat it just drips out with each bite[​IMG] i like em hot and cheesey.last night i did my first batch beef sticks with a boughten spice pack from gander mtn. man they turned out good to.but i need to learn how to do pics now. ive been on yoursite a number of times now "deejay" and may spend the rest of my life getting fatter and happier[​IMG] every wkend my wife jokes,witch artery clogger am i up to now? but she can eat with the best of us.

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