confused about nitrites/nitrates prague salt #1 or 2 for curing

[motsyball]

Quote from The Sausage Maker..

Celery Juice Powder (CJP) contains naturally occurring nitrites and nitrates (which breakdown to nitrites with the help of bacteria native in meat itself). CJP is now commonly being used for giving sausages and meats a cured appearance and taste without the use of synthetic sodium nitrite/nitrate. There is no standardized, USDA recommended curing time for specific amounts of CJP for consistent curing action so products using vegetable based nitrites/nitrates (such as CJP) must be cooked prior to consumption. CJP may clump/harden during transit in the Summer months, it is not spoiled and has not lost effectiveness, simply break up and/or use as weight measure instead of volume if this occurs to your CJP order.

Each packet (Net Wt. 1.25 oz.) can be used for 25 lbs. of ground meat.

1.25 oz. of Celery Juice Powder = approximately 8 tsp.

For 10 lb. recipes use 3 1/2 tsp Celery Juice Powder

*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".
**The use of natural products, such as Celery Juice Powder, which contain nitrates are NOT recommended for making bacon.

Well with someone mentioning celery juice it adds another interesting twist to this thread.  I became a newbie to this board and to the smoking hobby when my in-laws gave me a Masterbuilt Sportsman Elite electric smoker from Cabelas this past Christmas.  Over the past few years I have tried to reduce the amount of chemicals in the food I feed my family.  In other words, I try to avoid foods that have added chemicals such as MSG, nitrates and other preservatives.  For instance, when shopping for lunch meat and hotdogs I like to buy the ones that are labeled "no nitrates".  By doing so I have noticed that many of the no nitrate meats have celery juice in them instead of nitrates.

Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?  Now to go a step further, since I am new to all this stuff, do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?  Or is there an exception?  I personally like to brine all meat before I smoke it so should I just add the instacure #1 or the celery juice powder each time to my brine?  Or do you suggest I put it in my dry rub instead?  Obviously I want to make sure I do this right because I don't want to make my family sick from me not following some simple steps to prevent botulism.

 

[zalbar]

Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?  Now to go a step further, since I am new to all this stuff, do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?  Or is there an exception?  I personally like to brine all meat before I smoke it so should I just add the instacure #1 or the celery juice powder each time to my brine?  Or do you suggest I put it in my dry rub instead?  Obviously I want to make sure I do this right because I don't want to make my family sick from me not following some simple steps to prevent botulism.

Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?

No, it's actually less safe. The reaason we use cure#1/prague powder/etc is because we know EXACTLY how much sodium nitrite we're adding to your products.

Do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?

No. Do you plan on putting cure powder on your chicken? You only really need it for stuff that's going to be cured and left in a low-temp relatively oxygen free environment.

You can add cure to brine. I prefer dry curing my products. It's a lot more flavourful.

 

[motsyball]

 
Now that makes me wonder, is the celery juice powder you mention a safe alternative to instacure #1?

No, it's actually less safe. The reaason we use cure#1/prague powder/etc is because we know EXACTLY how much sodium nitrite we're adding to your products.

Do you all suggest you use a cure such as instacure#1 or celery juice powder on all meats you smoke?

No. Do you plan on putting cure powder on your chicken? You only really need it for stuff that's going to be cured and left in a low-temp relatively oxygen free environment.

You can add cure to brine. I prefer dry curing my products. It's a lot more flavourful.

I thought I read some where that using instacure #1 is more important when smoking wild game.  Is that true?  Also, should you add instacure #1 to any liquid you inject into the meat while its being smoked?

 

[daveomak]

It has been recommended that all meats that go into a smoker, have Cure #1 added to them.... Sodium Nitrite kills botulism...
Botulism is the most lethal deadly toxin know to man... there are now 8 known strains of botulism...
To be realistic, contracting botulism is rare... could be because of nitrite use in foods and what the USDA has done to prevent it.. doesn't matter.... it's a moot point.... If you get botulism poisoning, there's a good chance you will be dead..... it is a neurotoxin....

Botulinum toxin (BTX) is a neurotoxic protein produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum and related species.[1] It is also produced commercially for medical, cosmetic, and research use. There are two main commercial types: botulinum toxin type A and botulinum toxin type B.[2]

Infection with the bacterium may result in a potentially fatal disease called botulism. Botulinum is the most acutely lethal toxin known, with an estimated human median lethal dose (LD50) of 1.3–2.1 ng/kg intravenously or intramuscularly and 10–13 ng/kg when inhaled.[3]

(LD 50... Lethal Dose, where 50% of the population dies from the test)

nan·o·gram /ˈnanəˌɡram/

noun noun: nanogram; plural noun: nanograms; noun: ng; plural noun: ngs one billionth of a gram.



There are many threads on this forum describing the proper and safe use of cure #1...
in ground meats, add 1 tsp. per 5#'s of meat... that equals approx. 150 Ppm nitrite... after smoking and cooking the value is down around 50-75 Ppm nitrite... insignificant compared to the alternative...

 

[motsyball]

There are many threads on this forum describing the proper and safe use of cure #1...in ground meats, add 1 tsp. per 5#'s of meat.

Is that for any meat you grind regardless of how you will be cooking it or just for meat you will be smoking?  I have some frozen venison roasts that I grind up and mix with store bought ground meat which I make hamburgers out of or add to my chili.  Should I be adding instacure #1 to that venison when I grind and mix it with other ground meat or would you only add it if you were going to be cooking that ground venison in a smoker?

 

[daveomak]

motsyball..... morning.... Meats that are cooked low and slow in a smoker, are subjecting the internal bacteria to a perfect condition for rapid growth... 70-120 deg. F in a moist environment, a pH that is not harmful to them.. and if it is a low oxygen environment, like a smoker is, botulism can multiply.... . If the meat is held in that condition for any length of time, the bacteria will grow... if the meat is then subjected to a higher temperature of say 145 deg. F, most bacteria will die... others will not... a temp of 185 ish, will kill the botulism bacteria, but WILL NOT kill any spores the bacteria has replicated... that takes 250 deg. F.... temperatures a home canning pressure cooker develops.... So, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place....
Granted, this multiplication process takes time and certain conditions.... there are no guidelines as to the time this growth process takes... there is no way to tell if your smoker has the lack of oxygen required to grow / support botulism....

So, it is recommended that any meat that is subjected to a low and slow cooking process, in a smoker, has nitrite in it.... sausage, bacon come to mind.... because they are not subjected to high temps.... what time / temp guidelines would make nitrite an "un necessary" addition ??? I have no idea.... not worth the risk.....

 

[atomicsmoke]

Is that for any meat you grind regardless of how you will be cooking it or just for meat you will be smoking?  I have some frozen venison roasts that I grind up and mix with store bought ground meat which I make hamburgers out of or add to my chili.  Should I be adding instacure #1 to that venison when I grind and mix it with other ground meat or would you only add it if you were going to be cooking that ground venison in a smoker?

The rule is quite simple: fresh sausages don't need nitrite.

 

[wade]

Hi Motsyball

If you are planning to hot smoke your meat or sausage at normal smoking temperatures above 100 C (212 F) then there is no reason to add nitrate or nitrite to your meat or sausage as a preservative. Providing good food handling practices have been followed in preparing the meat or sausage then for the length of time that it will take in the smoker to reach 74 C (165 F) there will be no risk to health from bacteria. The meat will heat up from the outside so as time progresses the area within the meat/sausage where bacteria can survive and multiply will be continually shrinking.

When using normal smoking temperatures and times there is also no risk from botulinum poisoning - even if the oxygen content within a smoker may be lower than normal atmospheric oxygen. The length of time it takes for botulinum spores to produce toxin levels that approach toxic levels in most humans is measured in days and not hours, and it is also destroyed at temperatures above 85 C (185 F). Any low levels of toxin that may have been produced will also be broken down from the outside in as the meat temperature rises.

You only need to use nitrites and/or nitrates as a preservative in your meat or sausage when you are air drying or COLD smoking without "cooking". Even then, if you are using other curing methods (e.g. acidity regulation or suitable salt levels) you may not need to use them. 

 

[motsyball]

Well this is a complete buzz kill.  My brother in law gave me some wild turkey breast to smoke so I did a search online for smoked wild turkey breast recipes and I found this one online that said to use instacure.  I then did a search on this message board to learn more about instacure and it took me to Pops brine recipe.  From reading through his recipe I thought that I needed to use instacure whenever I smoke meat to prevent botulism so I bought a bag of the stuff on amazon.  Not knowing it was only for ham, bacon or cold smoking, I used it as a brine for some chicken I am smoking tonight and some wild turkey breasts I am smoking sunday.  Maybe Pops should mention in his brine recipe that its not for normal hot smoking but just for ham, bacon and cold smoking.  Oh well, you live and learn. 

http://honest-food.net/2014/04/28/smoked-turkey-breast-recipe/