Bacon troubles

[Bearcarver]

Someone else might want to chime in on that one. The only thing i ever added was the equal amount of brown sugar. I dont even put any spice on mine before smoking.

You might be better off rubbing your aromatics on after the curing process is done and after you dry the meat, but before you stick it in the fridge to sit overnight before smoking. Just my thought.

I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject.

Also, I had another question if anyone knows. I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

I can't help you much with that cure#1 wet cure. That would be Pops & others.

However not seeing what the whole thing you're looking at says, it could be "more cure with more water". I think the percentage in the dilution is the important thing, but I'm just guessing (like 1 ounce of something dissolved in a quart of water would be the same thing as 4 ounces of something dissolved in a gallon)???

And like I said earlier, I personally would not use any of the cure#1 cures as a dry cure.

Also remember this is my "Opinion".

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject. Thanks for answering this Bear, I'm going to try some fresh aromatics with the cure this time around since it seems safe. I have to buy my belly pre-cut and frozen. As soon as it is defrosted (its in the fridge, no worries) can I weigh out the TQ apply ithe appropriate amount to each belly and put the bellies in a single covered pyrex dish rather than separate bags to cure or should I keep them in separate dishes/bags?

Another series question has popped up from my research on curing:

I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

I like to do mine in smaller more manageable pieces for more accuracy.

With a big piece, I don't feel I can get it distributed evenly. One end might get twice as much cure as the other end.

If you want to do a whole slab, it would be better to go the wet cure route.

All I can tell you is when dry curing, 1/2 ounce of TQ (exactly) on every pound of meat is safe.

Again---My opinions!!

Bear

 

[avas38]

Someone else might want to chime in on that one. The only thing i ever added was the equal amount of brown sugar. I dont even put any spice on mine before smoking.

You might be better off rubbing your aromatics on after the curing process is done and after you dry the meat, but before you stick it in the fridge to sit overnight before smoking. Just my thought.

I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject.

Also, I had another question if anyone knows. I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

I can't help you much with that cure#1 wet cure. That would be Pops & others.

However not seeing what the whole thing you're looking at says, it could be "more cure with more water". I think the percentage in the dilution is the important thing, but I'm just guessing (like 1 ounce of something dissolved in a quart of water would be the same thing as 4 ounces of something dissolved in a gallon)???

And like I said earlier, I personally would not use any of the cure#1 cures as a dry cure.

Also remember this is my "Opinion".

Bear

Yeah, it makes sense that more liquid requires more cure, but the ratios/percentages are wildly different in both the brine recipe (comparing Pops and the honey one in Rytek's book) and the dry cure recipes in Charcuterie which allow for wide variation in pink salt application (whereas the recent blog post just says toss everything in a bag and coat in the bag).

I understand why you say you wouldn't and it makes sense. I'm just trying to understand the process and safety limits so I can tell when a recipe is safe or isn't for my future adventures into curing/smoking sausages and making ham etc.

Quote:

I don't think the aromatics would have time to penetrate in one night. Hopefully someone else has some thoughts on the subject. Thanks for answering this Bear, I'm going to try some fresh aromatics with the cure this time around since it seems safe. I have to buy my belly pre-cut and frozen. As soon as it is defrosted (its in the fridge, no worries) can I weigh out the TQ apply ithe appropriate amount to each belly and put the bellies in a single covered pyrex dish rather than separate bags to cure or should I keep them in separate dishes/bags?

Another series question has popped up from my research on curing:

I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

I like to do mine in smaller more manageable pieces for more accuracy.

With a big piece, I don't feel I can get it distributed evenly. One end might get twice as much cure as the other end.

If you want to do a whole slab, it would be better to go the wet cure route.

All I can tell you is when dry curing, 1/2 ounce of TQ (exactly) on every pound of meat is safe.

Again---My opinions!!

Bear

The pieces come pre-cut between 1.5-2.5lbs so they are very manageable.

I plan on using your recipe this time. I'm just trying to figure out why there seems to be so much deviation between non-TQ recipes that seem successful and possible safe.

Thanks for your patience and help.

 

[fpnmf]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

Here's my opinion.

You can poke around the net for months looking at ways to make bacon and find hundreds of differing recipes.

Some very famous folks have posted recipes that I just don't agree to,but many use them with success. ( for instance Alton Brown)

There has been much posting here with lots of differing opinions.

I had to decide who to trust.

Bears recipe has been very good for me,I learned how to do it and it tastes great. He gave me much help and encouragement when I asked him about things.

I trust him.

The next belly I get I am going to do Pops recipe. Seems very easy.

I have known Pops since 4th grade. We grew up pals. His family owned a store and his dad was very highly regarded as a butcher and meat smoker.

He has been doing this stuff since childhood. I trust him completely.

My advice would be find someone that you can trust and follow thier instructions to the letter.

Have fun, this is a great place!

  Craig

 

[xjcamaro]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

Here's my opinion.

You can poke around the net for months looking at ways to make bacon and find hundreds of differing recipes.

Some very famous folks have posted recipes that I just don't agree to,but many use them with success. ( for instance Alton Brown)

There has been much posting here with lots of differing opinions.

I had to decide who to trust.

Bears recipe has been very good for me,I learned how to do it and it tastes great. He gave me much help and encouragement when I asked him about things.

I trust him.

The next belly I get I am going to do Pops recipe. Seems very easy.

I have known Pops since 4th grade. We grew up pals. His family owned a store and his dad was very highly regarded as a butcher and meat smoker.

He has been doing this stuff since childhood. I trust him completely.

My advice would be find someone that you can trust and follow thier instructions to the letter.

Have fun, this is a great place!

  Craig

Amen

I think you might be trying to think about and do too may routes here. Bear helped me out tremendously as well, and i got 2 perfect bacon smokes under my belt. Many people have used Bear's method as a stepping stone to get their feet wet. I think you may need to do the same. Forget about all that extra stuff, do a simple effective cure/smoke to restart on the right foot and get those bad batches behind you.

 

[Bearcarver]

Thank you Craig & XJC,

It is the appreciation shown by guys like you and many others that make my efforts very worthwhile to me.

It's a pleasure to work with you.

Bear

 

[avas38]

I fully intend on using Bear's method with the belly I have right now. The only difference will be my inclusion of aromatics. I am only further researching to gain a greater understanding of the craft for my future endeavors.

 

[xjcamaro]

What are the aromatics you using?

 

[DanMcG]

I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

My last word about it. You can't learn the science of curing meat by reading recipes for it. You need to research and study why you're doing what you do. None of the links you posted will kill ya but how do ya know until ya learn why. Pops is on the low end of ppm of nitrite and others are over the top but until you know the difference what does it matter. If ya want to know what the USDA will allow read this. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

Sorry but it seems everyone wants to know how to do it but never seems to research the science of curing. And this is not directed at you avas. If I can answer any questions for ya feel free to PM me

 

[avas38]

What are the aromatics you using?

I'll toast and coarsely crack some black pepper, crush up a couple bay leaves and cloves of garlic and maybe include some fresh thyme and crushed juniper berries if I feel like it.

I was poking around online looking at different recipes so I could get a better grasp of pink salt utilization and safety. I understand that the amount to use for a dry cure per 5lbs of meat is .1oz or 1tsp of pink salt. Searching online I see a variety of ranges from 2tsp/5lbs (Ruhlman's blog) to Ryteks book which recommends a cure of 4tbsp of pink salt/ 1c salt/ 2 c honey for 10-15lbs (is this some form of psuedo brine? even so compared to Pops it has a far higher pink salt/liquid ratio) and many people using both of the cure mixtures from the book Charcuterie without issue.

I understand you can use too much cure #1 which can have a variety of negative effects on health, but I am a little confused. Are all these recipes unsafe even though they seem to be tried and true? If so how can you tell if a recipe is safe or if it isn't?

My last word about it. You can't learn the science of curing meat by reading recipes for it. You need to research and study why you're doing what you do. None of the links you posted will kill ya but how do ya know until ya learn why. Pops is on the low end of ppm of nitrite and others are over the top but until you know the difference what does it matter. If ya want to know what the USDA will allow read this. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

Sorry but it seems everyone wants to know how to do it but never seems to research the science of curing. And this is not directed at you avas. If I can answer any questions for ya feel free to PM me

I understand the frustration - I'm not really looking for an easy way out. I have been started reading up on the science, but I have seen conflicting views/opinions within the few things I have read. Any literature suggestions? I have heard good things about Ryteks book and it is at the top of my list, but beyond that is there anything I should read?

Also, thank you for that link. I spent a while searching the USDA site for that earlier, but couldn't find the guidelines. I must have been in the wrong place.

 

[DanMcG]

For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;

 http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739

 

It will answer all the questions a newbie can come up with and then some.   

 

[DanMcG]

As far as your question on the safety of the recipes you read, this is my take on it.

The USDA dictates the maximum amount of nitrite a commercial producer can use, you can use whatever you want for personal consumption   but why use   

but why use more then they consider necessary. 200 ppm is the max for a dry rubbed bacon. On the other end there is no limit to the minimum ingoing nitrite but 40-50  ppm is needed for any meaningful curing. The lower the amount of cure the longer you'll need to cure it. To short a cure time and you'll have uneven color and sections that are uncured and grey in color, to long of a cure time is not a problem

So you see you can have different amounts in different recipes and still be safe.

 

[fpnmf]

For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;

 http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739

 

It will answer all the questions a newbie can come up with and then some.   

I have one of his other books. Smoking meat and smokehouse design.

It also has a ton of the tech info.
 

 

[skygreenbud]

did you ever try using a brine instead of a dry rub? i made bacon last year and used a brine abd it turned out really well.even then you have to monitor the soaking times.leave itin too long and it will turn too salty.i live in nepa.

 

[avas38]

I just set the bellys up. One was 1.745 lbs (it got .875oz of TQ) and the other was 2.01 (getting 1.05oz of TQ). I rubbed the TQ on each belly trying to spread it as evenly as possible on all sides, then rubbed about a tablespoon of brown sugar over each belly. I skipped other seasonings this time, just to see how it would turn out without extra variables. I can always try them in the future. I put them both in a large pyrex dish, covered, and back in the fridge. I plan on massaging and flipping the pieces every day or every other day and hope to pull them out a week from today in the evening (15th), so they can form a pellicle for smoking on next Sunday (16th). My understanding for curing with TQ is you take total thickness divide by two and cure one day for every quarter inch. These pieces are about 2-2.5" thick, so I should be fine with this schedule, correct?
 

For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;

 http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739

 

It will answer all the questions a newbie can come up with and then some.   

That book was at the top of my list, now I really need to get it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[xjcamaro]

Its your preference but it might be easier to put the peices of meat in ziploc bags instead of the pyrex dish. Less opening and touching and exposure during the curing process. In the bags you can flip and rub and let the meat sit in the juices with out opening and exposing to the air. Just a thought. Makes it easier.

 

[Bearcarver]

I just set the bellys up. One was 1.745 lbs (it got .875oz of TQ) and the other was 2.01 (getting 1.05oz of TQ). I rubbed the TQ on each belly trying to spread it as evenly as possible on all sides, then rubbed about a tablespoon of brown sugar over each belly. I skipped other seasonings this time, just to see how it would turn out without extra variables. I can always try them in the future. I put them both in a large pyrex dish, covered, and back in the fridge. I plan on massaging and flipping the pieces every day or every other day and hope to pull them out a week from today in the evening (15th), so they can form a pellicle for smoking on next Sunday (16th). My understanding for curing with TQ is you take total thickness divide by two and cure one day for every quarter inch. These pieces are about 2-2.5" thick, so I should be fine with this schedule, correct?
 

For a real good read on the science of meat curing and    sausage making   check out;

 http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Quality-Meats-Sausages/dp/0982426739

 

It will answer all the questions a newbie can come up with and then some.   

That book was at the top of my list, now I really need to get it. Thanks for the suggestion.

2" thickest point----minimum---6 days

2 1/2" thickest point----minimum ---7 days

Those are including the extra two days I & others add for safety.

And I agree with XJC---Bags make it easier & you can squeeze most of the air out, keeping the juice that forms against the meat better.

Bear

 

[avas38]

Sounds like my time line is perfect. Also, next time I will try bags. Thanks!

 

[paredneck42]

Here is my basic bacon recipe it is a wet brine so i put the bellies in a big cooler and keep in the garage for 6 days with temps under 38 degrees and i flip them daily.

 10lb recipe

1 and a half gallons water

1 cup brown or cane sugar

6oz Molasses

1/2 cup Kosher Salt

Mortans InstaCure ( 1 Tablespoon per pound of meat)

I mix all these in a big cooler and set the bellies in sometimes weighing them down so they stay fully submerged in brine. Flip daily and take out 6-7 days let hang in cool environment for about 3 hours and pat dry if necessary. I smoke in a homemade smoker i made for 6 hours keeping air temp around 130 and internal meat under that if it goes over 130 u will be cooking meat. I use hickory,Sassafras and switch to cherry wood for last 2 hours. the cherry gives it a wonderful color and aroma!! Good luck and any questions just ask. I will be doing more bellies within 2 weeks i will have some pics up then.

 

[skygreenbud]

 i made bacon about a year ago.used a wet brine,smoked it for about 3 hours and brought the temp up to 154 deg.i wanted to have it fully cooked .sliced some up ,put them in the fry pan ,they were great tasting.