Amount of Sodium Nitrites

[alblancher]

Smoken Al and Solar Yellow

Thanks for throwing up the yellow flags.  I had just finished typing a rant about the same things you mentioned when I decided to see if there where any new responses.  I'll save it for next time when your not around to remind everyone that  "NEWBIES NEED TO FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS"

Al

 

[DanMcG]

Curing meat is an art and a science,  and from what I learned over the years is there are a multitude of ways to achieve the same end result.

 I go by what the USDA has posted as safe, not because they are right or wrong  but they map out a certain standard that you can us for a baseline and you know it will be safe,. Once you understand it you can fudge  the recipe if you want.

There's nothing better then a good ugly discussion about a subject to help people understand.... so lets get on with it.

 

[alblancher]

Dan,

Do we need the Nitrates to Nitrites to NO thing again?

 

[fpnmf]

UMMMM I went back and reread my first post and saw that I made an error... I fixed it!!

  Have a great day!!

  Craig

 

[solaryellow]

Dan,

Do we need the Nitrates to Nitrites to NO thing again?

I think what we really need is a good conversation about equalization and the difference between a dry rub cure and a brine/pickle.

 

[Bearcarver]

I can come in here as an outsider, because so far I haven't used any cure #1.

I have so far always used TQ.

However, since I can read all of your comments, I must mention that going by a set process, as far as how much cure #1, and how long to cure is one thing, and going by one of Pops numerous plans to cut down on sodium is another thing.

People must know what they're doing, because if you use one of Pops' lower amounts of cure #1, and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.

That is one of the problems with a Pro like Pops doing fancy things to cut sodium, and telling this whole board how to do it. Anyone using those various methods had better follow what he does to a T, and not mix this amount of cure Pops uses, with the length of time he uses for a different method.

I hope this makes sense to others.

It kinda tells me that using the regular "higher" amount of cure & the curing time that goes with it all of the time, is safer than trying to follow a guy who knows exactly what he's doing, and maybe getting mixed up while following his methods.

I hope I'm not the only one who can understand my gibberish on this.

Also understand, I'm not saying people shouldn't follow what Pops does (The man is an ACE !!!!), just make sure, if you follow him, you follow him exactly, and don't confuse parts of one of his methods with parts of another of his methods.

Just my 2 Piasters,

Bear

 

[solaryellow]

I know exactly what you are saying and agree whole heartedly Bear. Although I would hope someone reads at least a book or two before implicitly trusting someone else's recipe that defies (hopefully) common sense. And what I mean by that is take pork for example. Who in their right mind would leave pork at room temps or slightly above for 10 - 12 hours? Someone who read a few books about curing meat properly I hope.

 

[alblancher]

I have always been told that Cure 1 is only active for 3 days at normal refrigerator temperatures.  I would not be comfortable saying lower concentrations of Cure 1 for a longer period would still be safe.  Out of respect for the people that feel that process is safe I will defer to their experience but I am still troubled with assuming you can make that change in USDA accepted practices.

I am still uncomfortable with the use of TQ in bacon.  It is widely used by respected members of this forum and I have tried several time with absolutely no success to get clarification from Morton's. 

 

[fpnmf]

>>>>>and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.  

See post number 7 below..one several of us subscribed to...

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/104221/using-a-brine-to-cure-meat  

  Have a great day!!

  Craig

 

[Bearcarver]

>>>>>and not notice that when you use that smaller amount, he is also telling you to cure it for a much longer time, you could get in trouble.

See post number 7 below..one several of us subscribed to...

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/104221/using-a-brine-to-cure-meat  

  Have a great day!!

  Craig

Yup---That's what I meant---Thanks for finding an example.  

Did you find that with the Handy Dandy, or did you already have it in your bag of tricks?

Bear
 

 

[solaryellow]

I have always been told that Cure 1 is only active for 3 days at normal refrigerator temperatures.  I would not be comfortable saying lower concentrations of Cure 1 for a longer period would still be safe.  Out of respect for the people that feel that process is safe I will defer to their experience but I am still troubled with assuming you can make that change in USDA accepted practices.

I am still uncomfortable with the use of TQ in bacon.  It is widely used by respected members of this forum and I have tried several time with absolutely no success to get clarification from Morton's. 

I agree with you Al. The usage of TQ has always been of concern to me due to the fact it contains nitrates. Unconverted nitrates and nitrites means nitrosamine when frying bacon which is widely accepted as a cause of cancer. While I am dubious of modern day science in many instances, I do want to reiterate in this topic that there is a risk associated with curing meats.

Edit: My mind was working faster than my hands.

 

[alblancher]

I agree with you Al. The usage of TQ has always been of concern to me due to the fact it contains nitrates. Nitrates not converted to nitrites means nitrosamine when frying bacon which is widely accepted as a cause of cancer. While I am dubious of modern day science in many instances, I do want to reiterate in this topic that there is a risk associated with curing meats.

I would like to add that health risks associated with consuming properly cured and prepared meats is very low.  Proper curing extends shelf life and improves the taste and texture of lower quality cuts of meat.   All bets are off if using improper or unproven techniques. If you reduce the concentration of cure in the process proper refrigeration, sanitation, hygiene and cooking becomes much more critical.  This is the reason I ask all new sausage makers to follow USDA guidlines and estabished recipes.  These guidlines take into consideration that most newbies tend to be unfamiliar or careless with the rest of the process.

 

[bob1961]

ok what should i search for in the way i posted how i make my venison jerky by dry non heated moving air....i used the per pound method in a marinate that was bout 2 cups liquid that 2.5 pounds of aged venison strips....i can't see much of a difference in the amounts of meat and #1 cure....i just want to get it right so no body gets sick..........bob

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[alblancher]

Bob, I made beef jerky for years with nothing more then soy sauce, salt and spices in a very low oven or dehydrator.  I wish I could give you advice on what amounts of cure to use.  I think the primary preservative of jerky is the salt and the fact that there is so little moisture in the meat that the bacteria are surpressed. 

Marianski says that the USDA requires wild game including venison to be either cured or heated to 165 before drying to kill triconosis.

A recipe on pg 522 of their book is:

1kg venison

80 ml soy sauce

15ml worcestershire sauce

2.8g powdered garlic

2 g black pepper

1.5g dried juniper berries

cut meat into 1/4 inch thick strips

bring marinade to full boil over medium heat

add a few meat strips making sure they are completly covered by mainade reheat to full boil

remove the meat strips and place on drying screen,  repeat till all meat strips have been precooked

dry at 140 degreesF   you can apply smoke

jerky is done when a cool piece when bent cracks but doesn't break.

Store in plastic bag in refrigerator

I will look around tomorro for other recipes that use cure.

 

[alblancher]

Rytek Kutas in his book "Great Sausage Reipes and Meat Curing" acknowledges the need to treat meat potentially infested with trichinae by proper freezing using USDA guidlines, another approved treatment for the parasite.

He provides several recipes but standard is

3 bs venison

1 t salt

1 t Cure 1

1 t onion powder

1 t garlic powder

1 t black pepper

1/4 c soy sauce

1/3c worcestershire sauce

Prep meat the same way as previously described

Combine all ingrediants and marinate in refrigerator 24 hours turning several times

dry

having the Cure1 removes some of the requirements of higher drying temps as described by Marianski

Please remember that Cure 1 does not kill parasites.  The pretreatment kills the parasite

 

[Bearcarver]

The "Morton Home Meat Curing" book has you mix (Per pound of Beef or Game): 

TQ-----------------------1/2 ounce

Sugar-------------------1tsp

black pepper-----------1/2 tsp

garlic powder----------1/2 tsp

Cut strips 1/2" X 1 1/2".

Rub all surfaces of meat with this mixture.

Place in plastic food storage bag for 1 Hour. (Bear does 2 hours)

After curing, rinse strips under cold running water.

Pat dry with paper towels.

Cook meat to internal temp of 160˚.

Dry meat in home dehydrator following manufacturer's instructions.

Place Jerky in airtight jars or plastic bags.

Store in cool, dry place or freeze.

Note: I don't use a dehydrator. I just smoke it long enough to dry it to the consistency I like.

Bear

 

[bob1961]

thx guys....ok so i seen freezing meat helps, would freezing the deer meat before defrosting it to go into my marinate with the #1 in the tsp to 5 lb meat ratio then....i don't want any body getting sick or worse, once again thx guys........bob

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[alblancher]

Bob,

Find a link to the USDA food safety literature or search for maybe "triconosis and freezing"

http://www.mass.gov/Eeohhs2/docs/dph/disease_reporting/guide/trichinosis.rtf  

Go to section 4 part D

 

[bob1961]

thx alb.............bob

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[exhaustedspark]

I think what bothers me most is the opinions without stating this is not approved by the USDA

I know of many experts but if it does not follow the USDA i do not do it. I am the guy that leaves the meat deluxe pizza out on the counter over night and loves it in the am. Best breakfast ever. However all safety guidelines say don't do that.

Honest this is not an attack on any one.

Karl