40-140 ?

Discussion in 'Food Safety' started by gableguy, Dec 2, 2011.

  1. venture

    venture Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    The numbers may have slipped a little, but 4 to 140 in 4 is just so darn easy to remember!

    Good luck and good smoking.
  2. venture

    venture Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Oops.  Make that 40 to 140 in 4.  LOL

    Good luck and good smoking.
  3. danmcg

    danmcg Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    I get tired of people commenting on how the 40-140 rule is some sort of old wifes tale.

    It is in the FDA's 2009 Food Code if anyone wants to look. look under 3-501.19 2.(b)


    (B) If time temperature control is used as the public health control up to a maximum of 4 hours:
    1. (1) The food shall have an initial temperature of 5ºC (41ºF) or less when removed from cold holding temperature control, or 57°C (135°F) or greater when removed from hot holding temperature control; P
    2. (2) The food shall be marked or otherwise identified to indicate the time that is 4 hours past the point in time when the food is removed from temperature control; Pf
    3. (3) The food shall be cooked and served, served at any temperature if ready-to-eat, or discarded, within 4 hours from the point in time when the food is removed from temperature control; P and
    4. (4) The food in unmarked containers or packages, or marked to exceed a 4-hour limit shall be discarded. P
  4. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Stimulating conversation breeds understanding...Thats what makes our family Strong...JJ
  5. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    An experienced smoker will own either a good set of tongs or a good pair of heat resistant, washable gloves.  

  6. I would suggest that you take a breath. It is a myth if you are trying to use it for the control from the store. (raw meat) makeing sausage and then eating it.

    There have been some who are blending the time from butchering to serving. And that would be impossable guidlines to meet.

  7. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    No one is trying to Shut Down any one!  I/We are stating the Guidelines that have been adopted by the Moderators and Administrators of this Thread and this Site...You are welcome to do what ever you wish, but posts that give potentially Dangerous Opinion will be brought to the Posters attention...And repeated posts of Dangerous opininion will be Deleted...As a Professional Chef/ Restauranteur/ Certified ServSafe Instructor, I HAVE Studied, Reviewed, and Met USDA and FDA Guidelines, Scoring in the Mid 90's on Every Inspection...The FDA establishes At what Temperature and Length of Time at that Temp Food is deemed Safe for Sale to Comsumers...There are No specific Recommendations for HOW you get there...This lack of recommendation is Specifically why SMF follows a Professionally Recognized Safe Guideline that has a Margin of Error...JJ


    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  8. austinl

    austinl Smoking Fanatic

    humm, this conversation has taken a turn......I use a pair of welding gloves because they protect my hands and I can still use my fingers! lol
  9. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member


    Every food forum requires rules.  You may ignore our advice and cook anything you wish any way you wish accepting responsibility for your own health. 

    Are you willing to accept responsibility for someone else's health?  How about maybe getting an elderly person with heart disease sick with Listeria?

    The moderators and administration of this site accept the responsibility of providing only safe guidance to members.  Instead of each Mod and Admin deciding which safety rules they are in agreement with and presenting many different opinions on the forum we have decided to follow published food safety codes.  We recommend these codes as a group.  We expect participants in this forum to understand our responsibilities and work with us on trying to insure basic safe food procedures.

    I am friends with several members of the Moderator and Administrator teams that have extensive food safety experience   I know their education, their dedication to their food service jobs, their familiarity with food safety.    If DanMcG, Chef Jimmy, BBally or Pops talk, I listen.  I suggest everyone else listen too.  I don't know how you can question their combined experience.
  10. Here is my advice. Do not take a quote or nice sounding advice as fact.

    Check it out.

    Study and read

    And when you are done and know it all Study again and keep learning there is a reason i disagree with the norm on this site.

    Study it is so easy with the internent. Learn and then study some more.

  11. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    Disparaging Comments about others Knowledge and Abilities WILL NOT BE TOLERATED>>>PERIOD>>>END OF DISCUSSION...JJ
  12. venture

    venture Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    We have been around this tree before.  I hope it doesn't lead to where it has in the past.

    Healthy dialog is a good thing here.

    Having said that, I will stick with the 40 to 140 rule, even though the numbers are a little different now.

    Others who wish to deviate from that can do so at their own risk.  I, for one, will not deviate from that in my posts for fear that someone might get sick based on the posts they see here.

    Good luck and good smoking.

  13.  What???????
  14. alblancher

    alblancher Master of the Pit Group Lead OTBS Member

    Austin,  I like welding gloves , they just need to be kept clean.  I found a real decent pair of tongs on sale at Cabella's that I like.  I'm trying to remember the thread that discussed food handling gloves.  I may have to drop a hint to the wifey, after all it's Christmas time and I have been a very good boy![​IMG]
  15. raptor700

    raptor700 Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Al, I have 2 pairs that came with my rotisserie, they are great.
  16. austinl

    austinl Smoking Fanatic

    I like this; what experience have you all had with cleaning these tough leather gloves?  I have tried putting them through the wash but they are just so darn resilient.  I don't use them (generally) to touch my food directly but they do build up a mighty seasoning and I feel wasteful with the idea of replacing them just because the finger-tips are a little blackened and make my kitchen smell like BBQ anytime they handle something hot (which I secretly enjoy).  I guess my question is, is this actually a concern I should be having?
  17. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    ExhuatedSpark...Feel free to post Specific lines from the FDA that says I and many before me using  this Guideline, including those on other Forums, are Wrong...The info should be fresh in your mind since you have been studying it for months...Phone calls provide no Proof...Overworked Underpaid Government workers know No more than you or I, if they even have a concept of producing BBQ...I have already established how we have determined our usage of the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline...Here it is again...JJ

    A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

    I can't make it any more clear than that...
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  18. chefrob

    chefrob Master of the Pit OTBS Member

    Karl, not too sure where the myth is coming from. the premise is food is handled from the factory/plant to wholesale/retail in a proper fashion. wholesale/retail is to handle/store it properly and then it is up to us to do the same as an end user. if we do this then the chances of foodborne illness is greatly reduced. not trying to stir the pot, just trying to understand what about the "40-140 /4 hr" doesn't sit well with you and why. i have been serve safe certified since the '90's and have been cooking professionaly since the 80's so i have studied a few books that are based on science/trial and error with case studies. if you have any references/links or articles i would be open to checking them out.
  19. austinl

    austinl Smoking Fanatic

    I'm going to jump topics here for a second; Jimmy I respect your continued open-ended responses to this food safety discussion.  I had no idea my original post would open this can-of-worms however, I am experienced enough to know that this can't be the first time this subject has came up on here.  The reason why I decided to drop my objection with the context of the argument is mostly because of how you paraphrased your responses.  I now see it doesn't matter if this "rule" is written in stone or not because it is a good rule-of-thumb for all members whom are free to modify it at their own descresion and I see this as a successful function of these web-forum debates.
  20. forluvofsmoke

    forluvofsmoke Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    I've used welding gloves for several years to handle everything hot, except direct contact with food. Yes, they get blackened from charcoal, ashes, food drippings from handling hot grates, etc. I just rub mine in dirt to absorb the grease, rub them together like you're washing your hands, then wipe them on a terry cloth rag, old towel, whatever is handy. A couple times a month usually does the job.

    I don't get too concerned about them being a bit dirty, as I'm not touching food with them, and when I handle grates, I only touch the edges and always keep the food away from the edges anyway, due to this usually being a hot-spot for cooking...depending on the cooker type, of course. As long as I don't have grit from dirt, ash or charcoal getting onto the grate's food contact areas, I don't worry about it.

    I've never tried to wash them with any kind of chemical detergents and water...there's probably something that would work, like simple green or other degreasers, but then, you'd have the residue issue to contend with, if any were left behind in the deep leather grains.

    For actual food contact, I use 18" or longer stainless steel tongs and/or 4" wide x 6" long quad-tong meat handling forks. Either one (or both) are a great tool to have close at hand.


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