confused about nitrites/nitrates prague salt #1 or 2 for curing

  • Some of the links on this forum allow SMF, at no cost to you, to earn a small commission when you click through and make a purchase. Let me know if you have any questions about this.
SMF is reader-supported. When you buy through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission.
Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.

Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?
 
Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.

Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?


Re-read the entire thread.... it is explained in about 3 different ways.... all the answers are NO.... they are not interchangeable..... below is an explanation of how different cures are used....

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/prague-powder-1-vs-prague-powder-2
 
Last edited:
 
Gentlemen, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I mistakenly ordered Prague #2, after speaking with a maybe not so knowledgeable sales lady on the phone.

Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?
NO. Nitrates are transformed over time to nitrites so act as a sort of time release cure in longer cured products such as sausage, hams, etc. For quick cured items like bacon, pastrami, etc you'll want the nitrite stuff.
 
Thanks guys! Now a dumb question. Both of the Prague powders have 6.25% Nitrates, the #2 has added nitrates. so in the short term, the nitrates in both are doing the same job are they not? ( same percentage in both ) So over time, if I am understanding correctly, the nitrates convert to nitrites and I believe the term is "gas off". So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!

Thanks in advance.
 
Thanks guys! Now a dumb question. Both of the Prague powders have 6.25% Nitrates, the #2 has added nitrates. so in the short term, the nitrates in both are doing the same job are they not? ( same percentage in both ) So over time, if I am understanding correctly, the nitrates convert to nitrites and I believe the term is "gas off". So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!

Thanks in advance.

Bladebuilder..... This has been explained several times..... one more in the event you just don't get it.... The recommendations are not mine.. the recommendations are from "Food Scientist Experts"....

We are not the food police.... Do as you wish.... just don't feed the food you cure to children, the elderly, your family or friends.... eat it all by your lonesome....


Prague Powder #2
Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.)
It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly.
Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat.
When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.
 
"Bladebuilder..... This has been explained several times..... one more in the event you just don't get it.... The recommendations are not mine.."

Dave I get the process, I get the reason, I understand that they don't switch in uses.

My question was "So what is the health risk, for example, if food prepared with Prague # 2 was eaten early? Say in the first week or so after preparation? I am looking to understand, as I am beginning on this new chapter of meats!"

The reason I asked this way, was to help me understand the process of what each type of cure does with the meat. I understand sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. I am asking what the risk is. As I mentioned both products have 6.25% Nitrites. #2 has .64% nitrate. The "long cure" additive. Again my question,  what is the risk? I am asking because I don't know, not because I don't get it. Obviously after a month or more, the meat is safe to eat. I am asking, and not because I am planning to eat some early, or feed it to children or elderly, but for the knowledge of why early is bad, other than because the "Food Scientist Experts" say so. No where did I say I intended to eat any. So nitrates are bad, nitrites are good? Is the conversion from one to the other complete in the curing process? Is there residual in the meats that never convert?

I am simply asking, so I know what the risks are. All I can find on the web is nitrates/nitrites have possible links to cancer, digestive tract issues, blood pressure etc. I can see there is a difference in the two powders, and understand their place. Also web searches say that commercially prepared meats with nitrites/nitrates still have the chemicals in them.

I apologize for the rant. I am new here, and want to learn. Not be treated like someone who cant grasp a process or concept, nor be told it is because it is. I don't put my finger in a light socket because I was told not to, I don't because I understand the consequences of the action, because I was informed.
 
Last edited:
Not trying to add to the confusion here, but to play the devils advocate, an often discussed point here on the forum is that most green vegetables contain large percentages of nitrates compared to a cured meat product. We eat them raw/cooked all the time. MTQ contains nitrate which many peole here use regularly to cure meats for normal lengths of time(as a replacement for cure #1) If i'm not mistaken, the primary reason nitrates(cure #2) are not recomended for shorter periods of time is because they convert more easily to nitrosamines when cooking at high heat, hence the ban on using nitrate on commercial bacon. If the cure #2 is added to the meat in the appropriate ratios, there "should" be no problems consuming it.

I am not advocating this as the correct practice, nor trying to muddy the waters, but just trying to clarify info for the OP. Obviously, if anything in this post is incorrect, let me know and I'll correct it.

For more good info, see this paper about nitrites in meats from the U of Minnesota

http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/50792/1/00974.pdf
 
Last edited:
Not trying to add to the confusion here, but to play the devils advocate, an often discussed point here on the forum is that most green vegetables contain large percentages of nitrates compared to a cured meat product. We eat them raw/cooked all the time. MTQ contains nitrate which many peole here use regularly to cure meats for normal lengths of time(as a replacement for cure #1) If i'm not mistaken, the primary reason nitrates(cure #2) are not recomended for shorter periods of time is because they convert more easily to nitrosamines when cooking at high heat, hence the ban on using nitrate on commercial bacon. If the cure #2 is added to the meat in the appropriate ratios, there "should" be no problems consuming it.

I am not advocating this as the correct practice, nor trying to muddy the waters, but just trying to clarify info for the OP. Obviously, if anything in this post is incorrect, let me know and I'll correct it.

For more good info, see this paper about nitrites in meats from the U of Minnesota

http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/50792/1/00974.pdf
This article is 22 years old.....


CDN, morning.... On this forum, all laws, rules, suggestions etc., made by the USDA, FDA etc. are the guidelines this forum adheres to.... We don't follow rules made in Canada, England, United Kingdom, or any other nation..... That maintains a level playing field and "puts an end" to confusing practices....
Soooooo, in the future, please only recommend what the United States food regulatory agencies recommend.... It will save confusing folks that read these posts and threads.....
You can choose you own path and recipes, when it comes to curing.... we are not the food police... Please do not suggest to others, unaccepted methods or uses of curing agents...
 
Last edited:
Sorry Dave, forgot my disclaimer, Cure #2 should be fine to use for short term curing recipes other than bacon(Nitrates not allowed for any form of curing bacon, FSIS handbook pg 28), but cure #1 is ideal. 

MTQ has nitrite and nitrate(in equal parts) and is used regularly by members of this forum. Cure #2 has a lower ratio of nitrate to nitrite. Logic dictates that it must be safe to use cure #2 vs MTQ if the ratios are correct(except for bacon).

Unless you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise. None of the links/post on the forum have an actual fact that says cure #2 can't be used to replace cure #1(except for bacon), only the other way around.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

the info in the article is accurate, the age is irrelevant.
 
Sorry Dave, forgot my disclaimer,

Cure #2 should be fine to use for short term curing recipes other than bacon(Nitrates not allowed for any form of curing bacon, FSIS handbook pg 28), but cure #1 is ideal. 


MTQ has nitrite and nitrate(in equal parts) and is used regularly by members of this forum. Cure #2 has a lower ratio of nitrate to nitrite. Logic dictates that it must be safe to use cure #2 vs MTQ if the ratios are correct(except for bacon).

Unless you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise. None of the links/post on the forum have an actual fact that says cure #2 can't be used to replace cure #1(except for bacon), only the other way around.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf

the info in the article is accurate, the age is irrelevant.


++++++++++++++++

I hate it when members demand to filibuster.... Your argument is irrelevant... the question about using Cure #2 was
Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?/B]
AND Morton's Tender Quick is not used in commercial curing...

I do not recommend Morton's Tender Quick for curing any meats, due to the guidelines of the owner of the forum.... like I have said many times... You do not have to follow the rules of the forum for your own curing needs... Don't try to convince others of your particular "Non Approved" methods....


Now.... Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article.... to back up your irrelevant argument....

Below is a quote from the FSIS handbook.... The majority of our members are not in a position to safely and successfully use nitrate for short term curing... If you are "qualified' to use nitrate for short term curing, by all means use it... Consider the audience when you make statements that supersede the foundation of this forum, that the owner has set...

FSIS Handbook page 31..

NITRATE USED IN CURED COMMINUTED, PICKLED, AND DRY PRODUCTS
Introduction
Nitrate is used as a source of nitrite. If nitrate is used as the curing agent, the conversion
(reduction) of nitrate to nitrite by bacteria in the meat or poultry is a necessary step in the
development of the cured color. The amount of nitrate that is reduced to nitrite is dependent
upon the numbers of nitrate-reducing bacteria and several environmental conditions such as
temperature, moisture content, salt content, and pH. Hence, the conversion rate and subsequent
amount of nitrite, that is formed, is difficult to control.
Similarly, the further reduction of nitrite to
nitric oxide, which reacts with myoglobin (muscle pigment) to produce the cured color, is also
affected by the same environmental conditions. If nitrite is used as the curing agent, there is no
need for the nitrate reduction step, and the development of the cured color is much more rapid.
The poor control associated with the reduction of nitrate to nitrite, coupled with the fact that
most processors today demand faster curing methods, has lead to the diminished use of nitrate in
meat and poultry products.
Calculations for nitrate are the same as those for nitrite described on pages 11 through 27.
Different limits apply, depending upon the curing method used, and are illustrated in Tables I (see
page 7) and II (see page 12).
 
Last edited:
Here is one additional source.....

http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/lit_rev/cure_smoke_pres.html



6.2.3. Curing Compounds

Purchase commercially prepared cure mixes and follow instructions carefully (PHS/FDA 2001) or blend cure mixes carefully at home using an accurate scale.

Nitrate. Use cure mixtures that contain nitrate (e.g., Prague Powder 2, Insta-Cure 2) for dry-cured products that are not to be cooked, smoked, or refrigerated (PHS/FDA 2001). Dry cure using 3.5 oz. nitrate per 100 lbs. meat maximum or wet cure at a maximum of 700 ppm nitrates (9 CFR Cpt 3. 318.7(c)(4), 381.147(d)(4)).

Nitrite. Use cure mixtures that contain nitrite (e.g., Prague Powder 1, Insta-Cure 1) for all meats that require cooking, smoking, or canning (PHS/FDA 2001). Dry cure using 1 oz. nitrite per 100 lbs. meat maximum. For sausages use ¼ oz. per 100 lbs. (Reynolds and Schuler 1982). A 120 ppm concentration is usually sufficient and is the maximum allowed in bacon (PHS/FDA 2001).

Nitrites are toxic if used in quantities higher than recommended; therefore caution should be used in their storage and use (PHS/FDA 2001). About 1 g or 14mg/kg body weight sodium nitrite is a lethal dose to an adult human (USDA FSIS 1997b). Mistakenly using sodium nitrite instead of NaCl in typical curing recipes can lead to a lethal dose of nitrite in the incorrectly cured product (Borchert and Cassens 1998). For this reason it is safer to purchase and use curing mixtures rather than pure nitrites (saltpeter).
 
Posted by DaveOmak  
 

Morton's Tender Quick has Nitrate and Nitrite in it..... It is to be used for curing meats and not as a seasoning....  

To reduce the salt, use cure #1

There has been some confusion, on this forum, about the proper use of Morton's Tender Quick...  Dave

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

NOTE: Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, or should either be used as a seasoning. These two premixes are essentially the same, and can be used interchangeably. Both are considered fast cures. The difference between the two is that the Sugar Cure has added dextrose and a packet of spice mix. They both contain a combination of high grade salt, sugar, plus both sodium nitrate (.5%) and sodium nitrite (.5%). 

Like cure #1, these premix cures have been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, fish and sausage that require short curing times, and will be fully cooked. They are NOT interchangeable with cure #1; they measure differently. Unlike cure #1, you don't use any additional salt when making sausage.

NOTE:  Morton Tender Quick is not a meat tenderizer, and the Sugar cures are not seasonings. These are cures that only should be used in recipes calling for curing meat fish, and poultry. They can be used in recipes that call for cure #1, but because they are measured differently and the salt they contain, they are not directly interchangeable with cure #1, or cure #2, saltpeter or Morton Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure.
Here, I'll quote one of your responses to a jerky question, If MTQ can be used in a recipe in place of cure #1, surely cure #2, which has the same ingredients, in different ratios, could be used as well. Pretty simple logic, sorry it offends you so much. All I wanted to know is if I was incorrect, that's why we have forums like this.

The OP simply got me curious, browsing the site shows lots of recipes using MTQ as an ingredient, no moderator has deleted them or said anything about them, so I have to conclude the MTQ is not a banned ingredient on this site. If I am incorrect, could a moderator please say something?

Would I do it? No

Did I recommend doing it? No

Not sure where the jab about Canada came from, I never said that it was an a practice in Canada, or GB.

Anyways got your opinions on this issue, so thanks for that

Have a nice day
 
Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?


The answer is no.... the 2 cures are NOT interchangeable....


Now.... Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article.... to back up your irrelevant argument....

If you don't provide the link to the article, your credibility is OUT THE WINDOW.....
 
Can Prague #2 be used successfully in place of Prague #1? for Bacon or Jerky?



The answer is no.... the 2 cures are NOT interchangeable....



Now.... Pease provide the link to that particular FSIS article.... to back up your irrelevant argument....


If you don't provide the link to the article, your credibility is OUT THE WINDOW.....

Dave the only one arguing here is you. I asked a question based on the Bacon/Jerky question.

Rather than just say "No, because Dave Omak says so" try actually answering the question. You may get less "filibustering"

Bacon, NO "Nitrate is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon." FSIS handbook,pg 28 - very clear direction

Jerky, unsure I am personally unable to locate any information that says cure #2/nitrate cannot be used in jerky. If you have a reference that says that, by all means share it. Thats why I asked.

Cure #2 is unnecessary for jerky, but the sodium nitrite in it would cure the jerky, so specifically I am asking would the sodium nitrate remain as a residual product, or would it break down under the heating process for the jerky? If not, would the remaining residual nitrate be above the max allowable limits?

*This is a purely speculative question and is not intended to mislead anyone or encourage unsafe practices. When in doubt, stick with known curing practices and recipes.
 
This question is at the heart of what I asked as well. If #2 is used, what happens to the nitrate. Does hot smoking/drying assist in the nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide conversion. Is it safe? Does it need to sit for a month after smoking? How does the heat, rapid drying associated with say oven/de-hydrator processing affect the nitrate? Has the lack of moisture put a halt to the nitrate-nitrite conversion?

Again, I am trying to learn, not fuel an argument, or offer unsafe process.
 
SmokingMeatForums.com is reader supported and as an Amazon Associate, we may earn commissions from qualifying purchases.

Hot Threads

Clicky